NationStates Jolt Archive

And, no, it isn't Nintendo, well yeah they do, but that's not who I'm talking about. I am talking about Hispanic Americans and Hispanic immigrants. Their "marketing team" only seems to be selling "piss people off" in a bottle. Recently, they have translated the National Anthem to Spanish, renaming it "Nuestro Himno" - Our Anthem. Apparently, some one thought this would be a good idea and a good show of solidarity, instead of making everyone mad and making them think immigrants don't care about American culture or customs. That some one needs a good firing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12521196/
Too long, not posting.

And, no, it isn't Nintendo, well yeah they do, but that's not who I'm talking about. I am talking about Hispanic Americans and Hispanic immigrants. Their "marketing team" only seems to be selling "piss people off" in a bottle. Recently, they have translated the National Anthem to Spanish, renaming it "Nuestro Himno" - Our Anthem. Apparently, some one thought this would be a good idea and a good show of solidarity, instead of making everyone mad and making them think immigrants don't care about American culture or customs. That some one needs a good firing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12521196/
Too long, not posting.

These guys translated the National Anthem of the US and then renamed it? Who the heck gave them permission to do that?

These guys translated the National Anthem of the US and then renamed it? Who the heck gave them permission to do that?

What the heck makes you think they need permission?

Oh, and by the by, the anthem should have been translated long ago, Spanish being the second largest language in the US.

Who gives? It's easier for them to identify with that way.

Hey, I like it.

People got all pissy about Hendrix playing it at Woodstock and now nobody seems to mind. What a difference a couple decades can make.

What the heck makes you think they need permission?
Depends if its copyrighted or not, and it probably is - probably owned by Michael Jackson or something.

Oh, and by the by, the anthem should have been translated long ago, Spanish being the second largest language in the US.
Missing the point.

What the heck makes you think they need permission?

Oh, and by the by, the anthem should have been translated long ago, Spanish being the second largest language in the US.

I don't honestly care. This is the USA. We speak English in this nation. If they cannot understand that then they should not be here.

People got all pissy about Hendrix playing it at Woodstock and now nobody seems to mind. What a difference a couple decades can make.

You raise a good point. At first people were all liek "Hendrix is Teh blasphemer", how dare he play the melody of an english drinking song on his guitar.

But now, we almost expect it as the theme music to an invasion.

I would prefer it to be in french however.

What the heck makes you think they need permission?

Oh, and by the by, the anthem should have been translated long ago, Spanish being the second largest language in the US.

the U.S. speaks english, not spanish...

We speak English in this nation.

We also speak a wide variety of other languages. The United States has no official language.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html

"Equal protection under the law" applies whether or not you speak English in the US. Deal with it or try to get it in the Constitution. Every time it's come up, though, it's died in committee.

Depends if its copyrighted or not, and it probably is - probably owned by Michael Jackson or something.

National anthems cannot be copyrighted. They are public domain. In any case, it was penned more than a century ago, and even if it had had a copyright, it would have expired by now.

Missing the point.

What point? That some people are rube-ish xenophobes that see something wrong with being a bilingual society? You should be welcoming the growth of this domestic language.

We also speak a wide variety of other languages. The United States has no official language.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html

"Equal protection under the law" applies whether or not you speak English in the US. Deal with it or try to get it in the Constitution. Every time it's come up, though, it's died in committee.

Yes i know we do not have an official language and we should in my opinion.

Yes i know we do not have an official language and we should in my opinion.

LOL.

I don't honestly care. This is the USA. We speak English in this nation.

You may only speak English, these people, a very sizable minority, speak Spanish, too. Whether you like it or not, the US is not a monolingual country.

If they cannot understand that then they should not be here.

Or, which is much more sensible, they can simply continue to use Spanish and promote its growth.

You may only speak English, these people, a very sizable minority, speak Spanish, too. Whether you like it or not, the US is not a monolingual country.



Or, which is much more sensible, they can simply continue to use Spanish and promote its growth.

If you live in this country, you should speak english outside the home. I do not care if you speak whatever language you like in the home but out of it, you should use english.

*Goes off to breakfast*

National anthems cannot be copyrighted. They are public domain.
You must not know the US copyright system.

In any case, it was penned more than a century ago, and even if it had had a copyright, it would have expired by now.
Unless Michael Jackson bought it.


What point? That some people are rube-ish xenophobes that see something wrong with being a bilingual society? You should be welcoming the growth of this domestic language.
There is nothing wrong with a bilingual society - Spanish should be taught in America; however, the way to go around and not get people to agree with you is translate the country's national anthem and rename it as your own. Spanish may be the second largest language, but English is the largest, most common, and only taught language. There is no point, rhyme, or reason for it to have been translated, and for it to be done like this in a "show of solidarity" loses them what brownie points they had.

You may only speak English, these people, a very sizable minority, speak Spanish, too. Whether you like it or not, the US is not a monolingual country.



Or, which is much more sensible, they can simply continue to use Spanish and promote its growth.

Monoglot, not monolingual.

Yes i know we do not have an official language and we should in my opinion.

Ok, then let's make it one of the Native American languages we made extinct by coming here instead of continuing to rape this nation with our poor Hessian/Upper Saxon derivative.

the U.S. speaks english, not spanish...

Apparently a lot of people in the US speak Spanish. So, the US does indeed speak Spanish, as it is not a monolingual society any more. Spanish is the native language of quite a sizeable minority, which will continue to grow. Fighting the growth of Spanish is not only futile, it is stupid. Bilingualism (and beyond) is an asset.

Monoglot, not monolingual.

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=monolingual

If you live in this country, you should speak english outside the home. I do not care if you speak whatever language you like in the home but out of it, you should use english.

Why? Can you not be arsed to learn their language, so you're going to force them to learn yours?

How very American. Oh, and when you travel to other countries, remember: they won't understand loud English, either.

Apparently a lot of people in the US speak Spanish. So, the US does indeed speak Spanish, as it is not a monolingual society any more. Spanish is the native language of quite a sizeable minority, which will continue to grow. Fighting the growth of Spanish is not only futile, it is stupid. Bilingualism (and beyond) is an asset.
Which still has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It had nothing to do with it the first or last several times you brought it up.

Apparently a lot people in the US speak Spanish. So, the US does indeed speak Spanish, as it is not a monolingual society any more. Spanish is the native language of quite a sizeable minority, which will continue to grow. Fighting the growth of Spanish is not only futile, it is stupid. Bilingualism (and beyond) is an asset.

they translated and renamed the national anthem of an english speaking country. what if this was done somewhere else? it might be the second largest language, but it is not the first. new immigrants coming into the states will have to learn enlgish anyway. how can someone expect to be prosperous in a country when they dont even speak the native language? i undertand it is possible to get by that way, but it does not make much sense to me...

You must not know the US copyright system.

On the contrary, it seems like you don't know it.

Unless Michael Jackson bought it.

Copyright protection for works of art (that includes music) is not indefinite. Or, do you think we pay Mozart's relatives money every time we decide to watch or put on Die Zauberflöte? You cannot "buy" rights that have expired.

There is nothing wrong with a bilingual society - Spanish should be taught in America; however, the way to go around and not get people to agree with you is translate the country's national anthem and rename it as your own. Spanish may be the second largest language, but English is the largest, most common, and only taught language. There is no point, rhyme, or reason for it to have been translated, and for it to be done like this in a "show of solidarity" loses them what brownie points they had.

There is a lot of reason for it to be translated. Many countries, like Canada, have national anthems in different languages. And they're not calling "not yours," they're calling it "ours," as in "everyone's."

Why? Can you not be arsed to learn their language, so you're going to force them to learn yours?

The same logic can be used when Americans travel overseas. Why do the French force us to learn their language? They should learn English.

they translated and renamed the national anthem of an english speaking country. what if this was done somewhere else? it might be the second largest language, but it is not the first. new immigrants coming into the states will have to learn enlgish anyway. how can someone expect to be prosperous in a country when they dont even speak the native language? i undertand it is possible to get by that way, but it does not make much sense to me...

Yeah, what if, theoretically, an English speaking minority in Spain did the same thing?

Yeah, what if, theoretically, an English speaking minority in Spain did the same thing?

i doubt it would be seen in a positive light...

they translated and renamed the national anthem of an english speaking country. what if this was done somewhere else? it might be the second largest language, but it is not the first. new immigrants coming into the states will have to learn enlgish anyway. how can someone expect to be prosperous in a country when they dont even speak the native language? i undertand it is possible to get by that way, but it does not make much sense to me...

Many people have grown up and prospered and became very powerful without ever learning how to read or write. We barely even put words on road signs anymore.

Learning English would neither help, nor hinder, you in the United States.

I remember there being a time when being bi or multi-lingual was a sign of education. Now it seems to be becoming a sign of unpatriotism. *sigh*

The same logic can be used when Americans travel overseas. Why do the French force us to learn their language? They should learn English.

Are you saying we should be more like the French?

they translated and renamed the national anthem of an english speaking country.

Nope. An English and Spanish-speaking country. You are no longer monolingual - you have a minority of native Spanish-speakers that cannot be ignored.

what if this was done somewhere else?

It's happened many times in history that societies have come to speak more than one language. It works just fine.

it might be the second largest language, but it is not the first.

Which has no bearing on it being spoken nevertheless.

new immigrants coming into the states will have to learn enlgish anyway.

Or/And Spanish, depending on where in the US they live. Just like immigrants to Switzerland will have to learn German and/or French and/or Italian and/or Romansch.

how can someone expect to be prosperous in a country when they dont even speak the native language?

Spanish is a native language to the US, at least parts of it. It has become so in the same manner that English became a native language to it.

i undertand it is possible to get by that way, but it does not make much sense to me...

It makes perfect sense.

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=monolingual

Nope. They don't map the same. The English only crowd in this country are monoglots. It's not elective to them - as far as they are concerned. Monoliguliasm is a choice; monoglots cannot choose otherwise.

Many people have grown up and prospered and became very powerful without ever learning how to read or write. We barely even put words on road signs anymore.

Learning English would neither help, nor hinder, you in the United States.

I remember there being a time when being bi or multi-lingual was a sign of education. Now it seems to be becoming a sign of unpatriotism. *sigh*

im all for learning other languages. personally, i know two besides enlgish. it would seem to me that anyone who moves to a foreign country, should take the time to learn the native language. it would most definately help you succeed. how many jobs will spanish speaker have to pass up because they cant speak englsih? they need to at least have some basic knowledge of the language if they want to hold a decent job...

This is just a big fuss over nothing. Translate it into Chinese and exploit that market...

Nope. They don't map the same. The English only crowd in this country are monoglots. It's not elective to them - as far as they are concerned. Monoliguliasm is a choice; monoglots cannot choose otherwise.

http://www.webster.com/dictionary/monoglot

Learn English, please. :p

Hey, I like it.

People got all pissy about Hendrix playing it at Woodstock and now nobody seems to mind. What a difference a couple decades can make.
I don't know, I made a few minor changes to the anthem, when I sang it at a ball game once and the contraversy never died.

It's always "remember that time when you screwed up the most important song ever?!"

:rolleyes: I didn't screw it up, I sang it in a different key. (due to allergies, seriously what kind of idiot schedules baseball games in the spring when I am sick and then makes me sing at them)

Yeah, what if, theoretically, an English speaking minority in Spain did the same thing?

You mean, like Catalan? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language)

it would seem to me that anyone who moves to a foreign country, should take the time to learn the native language.

Why? That's not what the English speaking people did. They simply wiped out the native languages along with the people. About 20 of the 300 languages present in this country when Europe started showing up still exist.

Those 20 languages are the only native languages here. Choose one and let's make it official.

Which still has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It had nothing to do with it the first or last several times you brought it up.

You, like, did not read your own OP and what the thread is about, or something?

There is a lot of reason for it to be translated. Many countries, like Canada, have national anthems in different languages. And they're not calling "not yours," they're calling it "ours," as in "everyone's."
Which has two official languages.

Why? That's not what the English speaking people did. They simply wiped out the native languages along with the people. About 20 of the 300 languages present in this country when Europe started showing up still exist.

Those 20 languages are the only native languages here. Choose one and let's make it official.

thats getting beyond the real issue. europe was all about discovery and expansion at that period, and the present is a much different situation. we are not talking about people dominating a region. we are talking about people immigrating into a region...

Which has two official languages.

And the US has no official languages. Thus the anthem should not be in English, either?

And the US has no official languages. Thus the anthem should not be in English, either?

I think it should be in Engrish and Spanglish.

thats getting beyond the real issue. europe was all about discovery and expansion at that period, and the present is a much different situation. we are not talking about people dominating a region. we are talking about people immigrating into a region...

So? That's how the Indo-European language family came into being in the first place.

You mean, like Catalan? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language)
An already present native language in Spain.

Calling it "Our Anthem" went overboard because the majority of Americans do not even know Spanish, much less speak it. Spanish is an imported language to the US via immigration. It is the US Nationa Anthem by translating it into Spanish and then renaming it, they look more pompous then, say, comparing Catalan in Spain to English in Spain and implying you made are right with your flawed comparison.

I think it should be in Engrish and Spanglish.

That would be fun. An English-Spanish mix could be a very interesting language.

An already present native language in Spain.

Like Spanish is an already present native language in the US. It's as much native as English is.

http://www.webster.com/dictionary/monoglot

Learn English, please. :p

Yah, I know that they are used interchangeably in the US. But that's just because they really are monoglots. (Well most of them). They really cannot function when people don't speak english. They literally only have one toungue.

we are not talking about people dominating a region.

Actually, we are. People are saying that English should be official because it is the predominate language. English dominates, hence, it should win. Might makes right.

Sounds very much like a 1600s European mentality to me.

May as well say God ordained English and make it official by Manifest Destiny.

Like Spanish is an already present native language in the US. It's as much native as English is.
No, it isn't, and definately not like Catalan even if he could be argued that it is. Your comparison, and logic, are flawed.

The fact that English hasn't been declared the official language of the US should be surprising, there should be no asinine debate about why it shouldn't be. Official languages are the common language of the country.

Spanish is an imported language to the US via immigration.

So is English.

Incidently, if you want to get down to brass tacks, Spaniards (who spoke Spanish) were wandering about spreading their language among the native peoples a century before English speakers came. Many tribes among the Caddo Confederation in Texas/Oklahoma adopted Spanish as early as 1540.

Maybe we should look a little harder into this Spanish vs. America thing, eh?

Yah, I know that they are used interchangeably in the US. But that's just because they really are monoglots. (Well most of them). They really cannot function when people don't speak english. They literally only have one toungue.

http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dict&freesearch=monoglot&branch=13842570&textsearchtype=exact

Look it up there, as well, if you must persist.

So is English.
We were talking about Catalan in Spain and trying to compare it to Spanish in the US, or rather, he was because they don't compare besides the fact they are minority languages. However, the English and French colonized the majority of the US, ie, more native.

Many tribes among the Caddo Confederation in Texas/Oklahoma adopted Spanish as early as 1540.
Which was Mexico technically, but to the point, English became the dominant language, even when territory was annexed from Mexico.

I don't honestly care. This is the USA. We speak English in this nation. If they cannot understand that then they should not be here.


Well,in 50 yrs we could be speaking spanish...but oh yeah..there is nothing set in stone that English is our primary language..i don't ever remember seeing it in the constitution or any crap like that..

No, it isn't, and definately not like Catalan even if he could be argued that it is. Your comparison, and logic, are flawed.

Nope. English is as native to the US as Spanish is native to the US. There is no difference between the two, and there is no difference between Catalan being a minority language in Spain, and Spanish being a minority language in the US.

The fact that English hasn't been declared the official language of the US should be surprising, there should be no asinine debate about why it shouldn't be. Official languages are the common language of the country.

Sweden doesn't have an official language either. It's not uncommon, you know. Nevertheless, if the US were to get an official language, it should get at least two: English and Spanish, seeing the size of the Spanish-speaking minority.

However, the English and French colonized the majority of the US, ie, more native.

But the Spanish were here first.

Does might make right, or does crossing the finish line make the winner?

I charge that the US was colonized by a great many people who spoke a great many languages and be done with this whole "official" language bit entirely. English is an imported language, just as Spanish is an imported language.

No one import is better or worse than the other. It ain't broke, stop trying to fix it.

As for the National Anthem, I see no problem there either. It's just a song. We are a nation of ideas, not of symbols.

they translated and renamed the national anthem of an english speaking country. what if this was done somewhere else? it might be the second largest language, but it is not the first. new immigrants coming into the states will have to learn enlgish anyway. how can someone expect to be prosperous in a country when they dont even speak the native language? i undertand it is possible to get by that way, but it does not make much sense to me...


I am sure you can google like mexico's nat'l anthem and then have it translated into english for your understanding, is that not the same thing? So is that just as bad?

Nope. English is as native to the US as Spanish is native to the US. There is no difference between the two, and there is no difference between Catalan being a minority language in Spain, and Spanish being a minority language in the US.
You are trying to say Catalan in Spain is like Spanish in the US, or English in Spain. It isn't, the end. It was an already present language, unless you now intend to argue natives of Mexico and the Americas spoke Spanish before the Spaniards got there.

Nevertheless, if the US were to get an official language, it should get at least two: English and Spanish, seeing the size of the Spanish-speaking minority.
The Spanish speaking minority fails to assimilate, well the adult immigrants. Their children adopt English only the majority of the time. There is no reason to make Spanish an official language so adult Mexican immigrants no longer have to adapt to the culture. Their children learn English, maybe Spanish, but primarily English.

Many people have grown up and prospered and became very powerful without ever learning how to read or write. We barely even put words on road signs anymore.

Learning English would neither help, nor hinder, you in the United States.

I remember there being a time when being bi or multi-lingual was a sign of education. Now it seems to be becoming a sign of unpatriotism. *sigh*


Well since spanish is my minor, I assume i am a terrorist. :p

http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dict&freesearch=monoglot&branch=13842570&textsearchtype=exact

Look it up there, as well, if you must persist.

Does that mean that my europe definition is good then?

thats getting beyond the real issue. europe was all about discovery and expansion at that period, and the present is a much different situation. we are not talking about people dominating a region. we are talking about people immigrating into a region...


Well, didn't the europeans technically immigrate over here? And maybe the hispanic people are doing some "discovery and expansion" into america.

You are trying to say Catalan in Spain is like Spanish in the US,

It's exactly like Catalan in Spain. A native minority language.

or English in Spain.

No, I do not argue that. English is not a native minority language in Spain, at least not of any relevant size.

It isn't, the end. It was an already present language, unless you now intend to argue natives of Mexico and the Americas spoke Spanish before the Spaniards got there.

English is not native by that standard, either. It is as imported as Spanish, the difference being Spanish was there first. Spanish never did leave, it remained just like English did.

The Spanish speaking minority fails to assimilate, well the adult immigrants. Their children adopt English only the majority of the time. There is no reason to make Spanish an official language so adult Mexican immigrants no longer have to adapt to the culture. Their children learn English, maybe Spanish, but primarily English.

There is no reason to make it official, as there is no reason to make English official. There is however no reason to fight the growth of Spanish, and there is no reason for parts of the US to become bilingual (which they actually are by the way) and there is no reason not to have the Star-Spangled Banner in Spanish. The people can choose which one to use. And just because those children learn English, doesn't mean they do not use Spanish, should not use it, or should be precluded from using it.

Does that mean that my europe definition is good then?

Its definition is no different from that of "monolingual" we saw earlier. They are synonyms. My usage was perfectly correct, and your attempt at correction irrelevant, and superfluous.

Depends if its copyrighted or not, and it probably is - probably owned by Michael Jackson or something.


Missing the point.

nothing more involving and affirming than singing in your mother tongue the representative song of your chosen nation.

i dont understand how any nationalist can resent that

Why? Can you not be arsed to learn their language, so you're going to force them to learn yours?

If your going to live in this country, yes.

How very American. Oh, and when you travel to other countries, remember: they won't understand loud English, either.

I actually spoke spanish when I was in Panama.

Well,in 50 yrs we could be speaking spanish...but oh yeah..there is nothing set in stone that English is our primary language..i don't ever remember seeing it in the constitution or any crap like that..

Oh brother. English is the dominate language in this country.

Oh brother. English is the dominate language in this country.

And Spanish is a very sizeable minority language. So? English being dominating now doesn't mean those people don't speak Spanish, or that their ranks won't grow. In fact, they're growing quite impressively.

Regardless of the history of languages in the USA, I will try to discuss whatI feel is the point. I noticed in the article that the people who felt this was insulting included Michelle Malkin, and a spokesperson for the Minutemen.

Needless to say, these people have an agenda.

Other people, such as folk music producers, understand the message in its original intent.

Also, the music is the same, but the words are different. However this should not matter very much as 61% of USAmericans don't know the words anyway.

This is like the USian thing in one important respect: it is not intended as an insuilt, but some people feel compelled to react as if it is. Thus, our pantless friend's criticism. It is not an insult, it's a media blunder.

Oh brother. English is the dominate language in this country.

You mean the dominant language, don't you?

This is like the USian thing in one important respect: it is not intended as an insuilt, but some people feel compelled to react as if it is. Thus, our pantless friend's criticism. It is not an insult, it's a media blunder.

What is an insult is taking it as an insult because it is in anything but English.

Its definition is no different from that of "monolingual" we saw earlier. They are synonyms. My usage was perfectly correct, and your attempt at correction irrelevant, and superfluous.

Is that the question I asked fass? Don't make me post Liz Phair lyrics again.

Is that the question I asked fass? Don't make me post Liz Phair lyrics again.

I don't care what question you asked. You tried to correct me when there was nothing to correct, and continued your irrelevant and flawed attempt for several posts.

Liz Phair sucks by the way.

English is not native by that standard, either. It is as imported as Spanish, the difference being Spanish was there first. Spanish never did leave, it remained just like English did.
We arn't tlaking about English in the US compared to Catalan in Spain. Your comparison is inept and wrong because Catalan is not like English in Spain, Spanish in the US, or English in the US.


There is however no reason to fight the growth of Spanish, and there is no reason for parts of the US to become bilingual (which they actually are by the way) and there is no reason not to have the Star-Spangled Banner in Spanish. The people can choose which one to use. And just because those children learn English, doesn't mean they do not use Spanish, should not use it, or should be precluded from using it.
Too bad this topic isn't about the bilinguity of the United States.

Verse 1

Oh say can you see, a la luz de la aurora/Lo que tanto aclamamos la noche al caer? Sus estrellas, sus franjas flotaban ayer/En el fiero combate en senal de victoria,/Fulgor de lucha, al paso de la libertada,/Por la noche decian: "Se va defendiendo!"

Coro: Oh, decid! Despliega aun su hermosura estrellada,/Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada?

Chant:

It's time to make a difference the kids, men and the women/Let's stand for our beliefs, let's stand for our vision/What about the children los ninos como P-Star

These kids have no parents, cause all of these mean laws.

See this can't happen, not only about the Latins.

Asians, blacks and whites and all they do is adding

more and more, let's not start a war

with all these hard workers,

they can't help where they were born.

Verse 2

Sus estrellas, sus franjas, la libertad, somos iguales

Somos hermanos, es nuestro himno.

En el fiero combate en senal de victoria,/Fulgor de lucha, al paso de la libertada,/Por la noche decian: "Se va defendiendo!"

Coro: Oh, decid! Despliega aun su hermosura estrellada,/Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada?

Taken from:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-060426nuestro,0,6454902.story?coll=chi-news-hed

We arn't tlaking about English in the US compared to Catalan in Spain. Your comparison is inept

The only thing inept here is your reading ability. Let's see how!

and wrong because Catalan is not like English in Spain,

Which I did not claim at.

Spanish in the US,

It is exactly like Spanish in the US: a native minority language, because it is as native as English, which you seem to want to claim is native. Nevertheless, Spanish was introduced there - just like Latin was in the Iberian peninsula. Latin developed, if you didn't know, into the Romance languages. What is Catalan? What is Spanish? Both Romance languages.

So, we have four introduced languages in two pairs that became "native," one larger than the other in each respective pair. English vs. Spanish in the US, Spanish vs. Catalan in Spain. Someone claimed "What if English did the same in Spain?" The fact is, English could not do the same in Spain, as it is not native to the Iberianian peninsula like Spanish became to North America and the US, but Catalan is, which is why I used it as example of someone actually having done "the same" in Spain as was claimed Spanish had done in the US.

or English in the US.

Again, something I never claimed. Methinks you need to practice reading some more.

Too bad this topic isn't about the bilinguity of the United States.

It is. It is about a language minority asserting itself, and some of the majority acting like crybabies over it. It is very much about the bilingual status of the US.

What the heck makes you think they need permission?

Oh, and by the by, the anthem should have been translated long ago, Spanish being the second largest language in the US.
When 11 million Russians go into Sweeden and refuse to adapt to your culture and language I expect that you'll be just fine with it.

And, no, it isn't Nintendo, well yeah they do, but that's not who I'm talking about. I am talking about Hispanic Americans and Hispanic immigrants. Their "marketing team" only seems to be selling "piss people off" in a bottle. Recently, they have translated the National Anthem to Spanish, renaming it "Nuestro Himno" - Our Anthem. Apparently, some one thought this would be a good idea and a good show of solidarity, instead of making everyone mad and making them think immigrants don't care about American culture or customs. That some one needs a good firing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12521196/
Too long, not posting.


It's a disgrace.

If your going to live in this country, yes.

You're ... not your.

I find it best when attempting to debate the use of a single language that one can actually speak, read, and write said language properly.

And a quick and crappy translation:

Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars floated yesterday, through the perilous fight, as a sign of victory
Splendor of combat, at the coming of liberty
By night, they said: they are defending themselves!
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

Chant

Its stars, its stripes, liberty, we are equal
We are brothers, it is our anthem
Through the perilous fight, as a sign of victory
Splendor of combat, at the coming of liberty
By night, they said: they are defending themselves!
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

When 11 million Russians go into Sweeden and refuse to adapt to your culture and language I expect that you'll be just fine with it.

Spanish never left the US - it has had a Spanish-speaking minority for a very long time. That minority has grown. The proper comparison would be, "What if the Sami people of Sweden wanted to have their language recognised? Or the Finns? Or the Jews? Or the Gypsies/Roma?" The answer to that is, they got it. Sweden has five official minority languages: Sami, Finnish, Meänkieli, Romani chib and Yiddisch.

We aren't all afraid of language diversity, you know.

COMMENTARY: Although this is bound to raise a bit of controversy across most of the American continent, I see it as a rather good thing. Singing about your adopted Country in your native tongue is something I tend to view as high praise. To me, it's rather touching.

So what do you think?


Latino Pop Stars Sing to Support Migrants
Sat Apr 22, 6:14 PM ET (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060422/ap_en_mu/spanish_national_anthem;_ylt=AqU6vmEwOQfpQpzZk.FomwSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3YXYwNDRrBHNlYwM3NjI-)


NEW YORK - Mexican pop diva Gloria Trevi, Puerto Rican reggaeton Ivy Queen and Tito El Bambino and other Latino artists are recording a Spanish-language version of the U.S. national anthem in a show of support for migrants in the United States.

The Latino-oriented record label Urban Box Office (UBO) said Saturday it plans to release the new version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" to coincide with the U.S. Senate's debate on immigration legislation next week.

Congressional debate over immigration bills proposing everything from toughened border security to the legalization of undocumented migrants in America have triggered huge demonstrations across the United States in recent weeks.

"We chose to re-record 'The Star-Spangled Banner' to show our solidarity with the undocumented immigrants and their quest for basic civil rights," UBO President Adam Kidron said in a news release.

The recording, dubbed "Nuestro Himno" or "Our Anthem," is set to "rhythmic Latin musical arrangement" but respects the song's traditional structure, UBO said. The song will be primarily in Spanish with a few words sung in English.

The song is on the album "Somos Americanos," which will be sold for $10, with a portion going to Washington-based National Capital Immigration Coalition, UBO said.

Others participating in the Spanish version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" include Voz a Voz, Frank Reyes and Kalimba. UBO said it had also approached other artists, including Daddy Yankee and Don Omar, about taking part in the project.

You're ... not your.

I find it best when attempting to debate the use of a single language that one can actually speak, read, and write said language properly.

Your sentence could have used way more commas.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=479840

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=479840

An 80 posts thread on top of the front page. Yours should be locked.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=479840

An 80 posts thread on top of the front page. Yours should be locked.

No you should be locked! *shakes fist*

Your sentence could have used way more commas.

I'm not debating the merits of the use of a single language.

Seriously, Who the fuck cares?

Who cares if spanish-speaking people sing it in English? If you do care, why?

I dont get how every single other country accomidates english-speaking people, yet we can't accomidate spanish speaking people who make up most of our influx of immigrants.

Oh thats right American society will absolutely COLLAPSE if something different happens.

The answer to that is, they got it. Sweden has five official minority languages: Sami, Finnish, Meänkieli, Romani chib and Yiddisch.




You forgot Arabic.

You forgot Arabic.

That's not an official minority language.

That's not an official minority language.


Give it time.

These guys are way behind the times.

The local Highschool band has been doing a 'latin' sounding, Spanish-language version of the national anthem for a long, long time. We were about half-and-half, Mexican and white, in my highschool, so I heard the damn thing about a million times.

I think it's a good thing. Expand yourself. But, I don't agree with alot of the immigration stuff it's being recorded to promote. That. however, is a post for a different thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=479840

An 80 posts thread on top of the front page. Yours should be locked.
Honestly Fass. You really should make more of an effort to not be so ingratiating. It's kind of sad, almost like grovelling.

Give it time.

Actually, Kurdish, Persian and Serbo-Croatian are much more likely to become minority languages than Arabic... wait, you don't actually know that much about Swedish minority demographics, and their languages, at all, do you?

These guys are way behind the times.

The local Highschool band has been doing a 'latin' sounding, Spanish-language version of the national anthem for a long, long time. We were about half-and-half, Mexican and white, in my highschool, so I heard the damn thing about a million times.

I think it's a good thing. Expand yourself. But, I don't agree with alot of the immigration stuff it's being recorded to promote. That. however, is a post for a different thread.

I'd rather hear the national anthem in the worst broken english, than in any other language.

I actually think If I heard a bunch of Mexican singing the National Anthem in broken english, it would endear me to them more.

Actually, Kurdish, Persian and Serbo-Croatian are much more likely to become minority languages than Arabic... wait, you don't actually know that much about Swedish minority demographics, and their languages, at all, do you?

Sorry.

I didn't know I had to have a degree in "Swedish minority demographics" in order to have a light hearted conversation with a condescending ass.

Which I did not claim at.
Actually, you brought up Cataln when some one said "What would happen if a bunch of English speaking people did this in Spain" or something to that effect.

I think it's a good thing. Expand yourself. But, I don't agree with alot of the immigration stuff it's being recorded to promote. That. however, is a post for a different thread.
That's the fucking point of this thread. Fass just won't leave the topic of "People in US should learn Spanish!" alone. This topic is not about fucking language differences, it is about the nature of the song and what it's for.

I don't mind having an anthem sung in a different language. They can make an English version of the Mexican anthem for all I care. The important thing is the reflexion on history that that symbol carries, not what language or who sings it.

But, what really concerns me, did the Spanish version have to be so crappy? I understand that the metric is totally wrong for Spanish, but still, they could have made a much better job.

Actually, you brought up Cataln when some one said "What would happen if a bunch of English speaking people did this in Spain" or something to that effect.

Again, if you actually use that thing behind your eyes and not just your eyes when you read, you will understand why I picked Catalan. I will repeat it again for you: Spanish in the US is not like English would be in Spain. That's why I had to choose Catalan, because it is like Spanish in the US. The original question itself is flawed, not the comparison, which is actually a rectification of a flawed perception of circumstance alluded to by the person who asked that silly question.

I don't mind having an anthem sang in a different language. They can make an English version of the Mexican anthem for all I care. The important thing is the reflexion on history that that symbol carries, not what language or who sings it.

But, what really concerns me, did the Spanish version have to be so crappy? I understand that the metric is totally wrong for Spanish, but still, they could have made a much better job.

Did you see my crappy translation??!!

Musically,the only nice thing about the spanish version is that it's short.

I'd rather hear the national anthem in the worst broken english, than in any other language.

Then you've missed the point of founding this nation in the first place.

We are a nation of ideas, not a nation of symbols. If we put so much emphasis on something remaining untouchable as a symbol of our nation, then we may as well have kept the crown.

Again, if you actually use that thing behind your eyes and not just your eyes when you read, you will understand why I picked Catalan. I will repeat it again for you: Spanish in the US is not like English would be in Spain. That's why I had to choose Catalan, because it is like Spanish in the US. The original question itself is flawed, not the comparison, which is actually a rectification of a flawed perception of circumstance alluded to by the person who asked that silly question.
Catalan was already in Spain. Spanish was brought to America by immigrants, lately. Spanish as a language has not been some omnipresent fact throughout the US history, only recently has the desire by both immigrants and US nationals for integration laxed up enough for this to even turn into a debate like this.

Then you've missed the point of founding this nation in the first place.




Tax evasion?

Honestly Fass. You really should make more of an effort to not be so ingratiating.

Look who's talking.

It's kind of sad, almost like grovelling.

Ditto, then.

Honestly Fass. You really should make more of an effort to not be so ingratiating. It's kind of sad, almost like grovelling.

seems to me like he's being more of an ass than ingratiating... but that's just me.

Tax evasion?
That's what I first thought. Nation of ideas? Nation of tax haters.

Look who's talking.

Ditto, then.
LOL! I knew I could count on you for a great comeback! :D

seems to me like he's being more of an ass than ingratiating... but that's just me.
Now, now. Fass just takes out his real life frustrations online, like many of the rest of us.

Pssst! It was sarcasm! ;)

Did you see my crappy translation??!!
I think your crappy translation was crappy just because the Spanish translation was crappy as well.

I already knew that one doesn't have to speak English to worship one's nation.

Now, now. Fass just takes out his real life frustrations online, like many of the rest of us.

Pssst! It was sarcasm! ;)

rofl. i can't read sarcasm too well. on a similar note, what do you t hink about the mexicans who want to do a walk off on May 1?

Catalan was already in Spain.

Nope, it's introduced through Latin just like Spanish is.

Spanish was brought to America by immigrants, lately.

As was English.

Spanish as a language has not been some omnipresent fact throughout the US history, only recently has the desire by both immigrants and US nationals for integration laxed up enough for this to even turn into a debate like this.

Then you are quite ignorant of not only Spanish history, but also US history as well. Spanish has been quite influential on the history of North and South America, and of the US.

So, have you yet thought about what you've read, or will you continue to cling to these flawed straws of your false claims of improper comparison?

Catalan was already in Spain. Spanish was brought to America by immigrants, lately. Spanish as a language has not been some omnipresent fact throughout the US history, only recently has the desire by both immigrants and US nationals for integration laxed up enough for this to even turn into a debate like this.
That's what you get from taking territories from Mexico and Spain. If you didn't like them you shouldn't have brought them into your collective.

I think I should say that by lately I mean the last couple of decades or so.

I don't honestly care. This is the USA. We speak English in this nation. If they cannot understand that then they should not be here.
I thought that the U.S. didn't actually have official languages for some reason...

not that i don't mind that they translated it from english to spanish, but i'm a bit miffed they renamed it.

However, on the first few pages, i was reading how spanish was a native language and how we should accept it as a 2nd language and that we can't ignore it....

i agree that it's becoming a larger spoken language, and it's almost the predominant language in south texas and parts of arizona and california i'm sure.


However, english is still the primary language because when it is taught, it is a required course to graduate school (h.s. college, etc). Spanish, on the other hand, can be taken as an ELECTIVE. Just as german, french, latin, etc can.

So to say that spanish is a language native to the US is wrong, imo. Because if it was, it would be required to graduate.

(on an off topic note, language is a funny word to type/say)

I think I should say that by lately I mean the last couple of decades or so.

http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/spanglish/usa/

Correcting Myths
Spanish predated English in arriving in what is now the United States. For 400 years, the two languages have co-existed; today’s immigrants continue to bring variation. Phillip M. Carter explains how Spanish came to our shores and explores its many dialects.

Local, regional and national news stories have recently raised the misconception that native Spanish speakers are only now beginning to populate areas of the United States en masse. Although recent Census reports show that the U.S. Hispanic population has experienced an upsurge since the early 1990’s, Hispanic communities and varieties of the Spanish language have been maintained in the United States for well more than four centuries. In fact, Spanish actually antedates English in the areas that now make up the composite United States — a fact that surprises many Americans. In terms of continuity and longevity in the United States, the Spanish language is second only to Native American languages that were spoken for centuries prior to colonization.

I thought that the U.S. didn't actually have official languages for some reason...
it doesn't, but i think it's safe to say that english is the unofficial language of the US.

it doesn't, but i think it's safe to say that english is the unofficial language of the US.
Along with Spanish, Yiddish, Italian, Dutch, Polish, French, German, Mandarin, Japanese, Vietnamese and all of the native languages.

What made English different is that it was the first language of the majority. That is no longer the case as I understand it. There are more people in the USA now who have a language other than English as their first tongue than there are that grew up with English spoken at home.

Along with Spanish, Yiddish, Italian, Dutch, Polish, French, German, Mandarin, Japanese, Vietnamese and all of the native languages.

What made English different is that it was the first language of the majority. That is no longer the case as I understand it. There are more people in the USA now who have a language other than English as their first tongue than there are that grew up with English spoken at home.
are any of those other languages required to be taught in schools?

are any of those other languages required to be taught in schools?

Because, according to you, that's what 'native' means: required to be taught in school.

I guess math is a native american language.

http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/spanglish/usa/
You obviously missed the meat of the comment..

I don't really understand why the US doesn't have an official language, or why there isn't a move to set a language up officially. Why the heck NOT be bilingual? Canada hasn't fallen apart (yet) over our bilingualism...and plenty of other countries are bi or trilingual in the official sense.

Then you could at least have a leg to stand on when complaining about other languages.

If you live in this country, you should speak english outside the home. I do not care if you speak whatever language you like in the home but out of it, you should use english.

*Goes off to breakfast*
per che?

Because, according to you, that's what 'native' means: required to be taught in school.

I guess math is a native american language.

wow, math is a language now? we use it to communicate w/ one another verbally?

hell, if it was, then YES, i would say it's a native language.

I don't really understand why the US doesn't have an official language, or why there isn't a move to set a language up officially.

Equality under the law. Can't be equal if you can't understand the charges against you.

You obviously missed the meat of the comment..

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Equality under the law. Can't be equal if you can't understand the charges against you.
We have that right as well. Just because there are two official languages, it doesn't mean you are denied service in your own language, especially in situations like that.

I'd rather hear the national anthem in the worst broken english, than in any other language.

I actually think If I heard a bunch of Mexican singing the National Anthem in broken english, it would endear me to them more.

Doesn't everyone sing their national anthem in broken English? Anyone who knows more than the first three lines and the last one is dangerously patriotic.

We have that right as well. Just because there are two official languages, it doesn't mean you are denied service in your own language, especially in situations like that.


Ah ... well we're the United States. We react differently to such things. If the Constitution were amended to make English the official language of the United States, judges all over the place would be telling non-English speaking people "tough titties" when they don't understand what's going on.

That, and the $1.5 billion that's currently being spent every year on translation services would then go to buying a fresh tank of gas for 10 Abrams or maybe a nice missile.

I don't really understand why the US doesn't have an official language, or why there isn't a move to set a language up officially. Why the heck NOT be bilingual? Canada hasn't fallen apart (yet) over our bilingualism...and plenty of other countries are bi or trilingual in the official sense.

Then you could at least have a leg to stand on when complaining about other languages.
me either. But i guess they don't want to waste time and money on it until it becomes a serious issue on what language needs to be spoken. Can you imagine them adopting english and spanish as the nat'l language? They would need to change every document and signage around the US.... that's quite a hefty penny i would think... (but then, you could just do a phase out of documents, signage is where it would be a problem i think)

You obviously missed the meat of the comment..

Perhaps. I will explain what I think you were saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You said:
I think I should say that by lately I mean the last couple of decades or so.
which I took to understand as modifying this post:
Catalan was already in Spain. Spanish was brought to America by immigrants, lately. Spanish as a language has not been some omnipresent fact throughout the US history, only recently has the desire by both immigrants and US nationals for integration laxed up enough for this to even turn into a debate like this.

in which you make the following claims:
1. Spanish was brought to the USA by immigrants within recent history.
2. Spanish has not been present throughout US history.
3. In the last couple decades or so, people have been more relaxed about integration, therefore 'this debate' can now take place.

So, what is 'this debate'? You are not too clear on this. I took it to mean 'the debate about the role of hispanic cultures and their recognition within US culture'.

By the way, can you see how someone could think you are saying that Spanish was brought to the USA within the last couple decades?

wow, math is a language now? we use it to communicate w/ one another verbally?

hell, if it was, then YES, i would say it's a native language.

1+1=2

Did you understand that? Good. That means we communicated using math. To paraphrase Carl Sagan: math is the only universal language.

So, according to you, math is native to the USA?

Odd.

Can you imagine them adopting english and spanish as the nat'l language? They would need to change every document and signage around the US.... that's quite a hefty penny i would think... (but then, you could just do a phase out of documents, signage is where it would be a problem i think)
The US already does that. Many important documents are printed in a variety of languages as a matter of course. And citizens can petition the government to have some document translated to their language.

So then why no 'official' language? Don't most countries have an official language? What's the history on this in the US?

So then why no 'official' language? Don't most countries have an official language? What's the history on this in the US?

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html

I guess I just don't see the big deal here, as long as the lyrics themselves aren't changed too much. Our anthem was originally in French, and they didn't scream that we made an English version (or perhaps the screaming was muted). There are even aboriginal versions of the anthem. It's not divisive, it's inclusive.

I guess I just don't see the big deal here, as long as the lyrics themselves aren't changed too much. Our anthem was originally in French, and they didn't scream that we made an English version (or perhaps the screaming was muted). There are even aboriginal versions of the anthem. It's not divisive, it's inclusive.

I think you just broke my brain. I was trying to imagine what Oh Canada would sound like done by a drum circle.

Ah ... well we're the United States. We react differently to such things. If the Constitution were amended to make English the official language of the United States, judges all over the place would be telling non-English speaking people "tough titties" when they don't understand what's going on.

That, and the $1.5 billion that's currently being spent every year on translation services would then go to buying a fresh tank of gas for 10 Abrams or maybe a nice missile.

That's why united statesman are cool. It's not the words, it's the message.

That's why united statesman are cool. It's not the words, it's the message.

Would it be United Statesmen? You coined the term, so you get to decide. (cue sousa music)

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html
Ah. I can see that this particular point would cause problems:

The Government of the United States shall preserve and enhance the role of English as the official language of the United States of America. Unless specifically stated in applicable law, no person has a right, entitlement, or claim to have the Government of the United States or any of its officials or representatives act, communicate, perform or provide services, or provide materials in any language other than English. If exceptions are made, that does not create a legal entitlement to additional services in that language or any language other than English.

But I don't understand why that would be insisted upon.

I mean, officially in Canada I suppose you might try to deny someone the right to service in Mandarin...but I can't see it happening in a legal setting as the accused needs to understand the charges being brought against them. I doubt that would be different in the US...well, maybe not doubt...but hope...

1+1=2

Did you understand that? Good. That means we communicated using math. To paraphrase Carl Sagan: math is the only universal language.

So, according to you, math is native to the USA?

Odd.

sure, but 1+1+2=4 doesn't translate to "can you go get milk at the grocery store"

i said verbally communicate, not mathmatically communicate.

The US already does that. Many important documents are printed in a variety of languages as a matter of course. And citizens can petition the government to have some document translated to their language.
sure, that's why i stated it would be more difficult to change the signage v. the paperwork. paperwork you could just phase out if it didn't have the other language on it.

I think you just broke my brain. I was trying to imagine what Oh Canada would sound like done by a drum circle.
When I worked up in the NWT, for a while they used to alternate the anthem. English, French, Inuvialuktun and Gwich'in. They aboriginal versions still used the same tune, but the Inuvialuit one was done a-cappella with drums behind, and the Gwich'in one had a fiddler doing the tune behind the singers. It sounded just fine.

If it were sung in the traditional way it might sound a bit more odd, for sure...

sure, but 1+1+2=4 doesn't translate to "can you go get milk at the grocery store"

i said verbally communicate, not mathmatically communicate.

First, explain to me how 'native to the US' can be defined as 'I need it to graduate'. Then I'll explain about non-verbal communication.

sure, but 1+1+2=4 doesn't translate to "can you go get milk at the grocery store"

In a way it does.

When you type "can you go get milk at the grocery store", your computer isn't seeing "can you go get milk at the grocery store", it's seeing strings of 1s and 0s and spits those to other machines, which eventually spits them to mine where I see "can you go get milk at the grocery store".

So ... in a way ....

I guess I just don't see the big deal here, as long as the lyrics themselves aren't changed too much. Our anthem was originally in French, and they didn't scream that we made an English version (or perhaps the screaming was muted). There are even aboriginal versions of the anthem. It's not divisive, it's inclusive.
i think the big deal is in changing the name of the song, not the actual translation of words.

In a way it does.

When you type "can you go get milk at the grocery store", your computer isn't seeing "can you go get milk at the grocery store", it's seeing strings of 1s and 0s and spits those to other machines, which eventually spits them to mine where I see "can you go get milk at the grocery store".

So ... in a way ....
ok... in a way humans can understand ;) i understand computers communicate @ 1's and 0's, but we type in a keystroke, which the computer comprehends as 1's and 0's, but to us. it comes out as a letter we understand.

i think the big deal is in changing the name of the song, not the actual translation of words.
Is that really it? Just the name?

Is that really it? Just the name?

So if we called them 'the shining happy patriotic ones' instead of 'illegal immigrants', no one would mind?!

Cool!

Oh, and Gift-of-God...here it is in Cree (http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heroes/ocanada.html). Most people keep the tune and just use their own translation. Which does not in anyway match the French or English version (which don't even match each other).

First, explain to me how 'native to the US' can be defined as 'I need it to graduate'. Then I'll explain about non-verbal communication.
non-verbal communication uses math? hm... news to me. Kinda interested on your take tho.

besides the fact we're not talking about non-verbal comm. we're talking about verbal (i.e. english and spanish).

native in the instance i used means required. We aren't required to take spanish to graduate, however, we do need to take english.

Is that really it? Just the name?
Well, it appears that's what it says in the OP. I don't care about the translating/singing part. i don't like it that they change the name. (if they did)

*snip*

These idiots, because that is what they are, changed the lyrics.

These idiots, because that is what they are, changed the lyrics.
Ah, so it's NOT just about the name?

native in the instance i used means required. We aren't required to take spanish to graduate, however, we do need to take english.

Main Entry: 1na·tive
Pronunciation: 'nA-tiv
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English natif, from Middle French, from Latin nativus, from natus, past participle of nasci to be born -- more at NATION
1 : INBORN, INNATE <native talents>
2 : belonging to a particular place by birth <native to Wisconsin>
3 archaic : closely related
4 : belonging to or associated with one by birth
5 : NATURAL, NORMAL
6 a : grown, produced, or originating in a particular place or in the vicinity : LOCAL b : living or growing naturally in a particular region : INDIGENOUS
7 : SIMPLE, UNAFFECTED
8 a : constituting the original substance or source b : found in nature especially in an unadulterated form <mining native silver>
9 chiefly Australian : having a usually superficial resemblance to a specified English plant or animal

Main Entry: re·quire
Pronunciation: ri-'kwIr
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): re·quired; re·quir·ing
Etymology: Middle English requeren, from Middle French requerre, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin requaerere to seek for, need, require, alteration of Latin requirere, from re- + quaerere to seek, ask
transitive senses
1 a : to claim or ask for by right and authority b archaic : REQUEST
2 a : to call for as suitable or appropriate <the occasion requires formal dress> b : to demand as necessary or essential : have a compelling need for <all living beings require food>
3 : to impose a compulsion or command on : COMPEL
4 chiefly British : to feel or be obliged -- used with a following infinitive <one does not require to be a specialist -- Elizabeth Bowen>
intransitive senses, archaic : ASK
synonym see DEMAND


'Native' does not mean 'required'

I thought that the U.S. didn't actually have official languages for some reason...

We don't but we should. However, when one debases the national anthem by 1) singing it in a different language and 2) changing the words, that makes me mad.

"I'm really appalled. . . . We are not a bilingual nation," said George Taplin, director of the Virginia Chapter of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps Well apparently you aren't a monolingual nation either, so why not have this anthem in every conceivable language?

ok... in a way humans can understand ;) i understand computers communicate @ 1's and 0's, but we type in a keystroke, which the computer comprehends as 1's and 0's, but to us. it comes out as a letter we understand.

I admit it's a reach, but it means you're communicating in a language other than English right now! Just something else is doing the work for you.

Can you imagine having to type out all those 1s and 0s, though? Yikes.

We don't but we should. However, when one debases the national anthem by 1) singing it in a different language and 2) changing the words, that makes me mad.

Why?! Why do you believe this country exists in symbols? Why is your America so much weaker than mine?

Doesn't everyone sing their national anthem in broken English? Anyone who knows more than the first three lines and the last one is dangerously patriotic.

I could say that ALL national anthems are dangerously patriotic, including Canada's.

We don't but we should. However, when one debases the national anthem by 1) singing it in a different language and 2) changing the words, that makes me mad.
That must just be a US thing. We don't seem to find it debasing when the same thing is done here:

O Canada! Our home and native;) land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

Ô Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix;
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur de foi trempée
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits;
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.

(Translation of French)
O Canada! Land of our forefathers
Thy brow is wreathed with a glorious garland of flowers.
As in thy arm ready to wield the sword,
So also is it ready to carry the cross.
Thy history is an epic of the most brilliant exploits.
Ch.
Thy valour steeped in faith
Will protect our homes and our rights
Will protect our homes and our rights.

They don't match at all.

Ah ... well we're the United States. We react differently to such things. If the Constitution were amended to make English the official language of the United States, judges all over the place would be telling non-English speaking people "tough titties" when they don't understand what's going on.

That, and the $1.5 billion that's currently being spent every year on translation services would then go to buying a fresh tank of gas for 10 Abrams or maybe a nice missile.

Wrongo Buddy.

Wrongo Buddy.
Please don't pull a Eutrusca...don't just make comments like that and not go into detail.

We don't but we should. However, when one debases the national anthem by 1) singing it in a different language and 2) changing the words, that makes me mad.

Too many teardrops for one heart to be cryin'
Too many teardrops for one heart
To carry on
You're gonna cry ninety-six tears
You're gonna cry ninety-six tears
You're gonna cry cry, cry, cry, now
You're gonna cry cry, cry, cry
Ninety-six tears c'mon and lemme hear you cry, now
Ninety-six tears (whoo!) I wanna hear you cry
Night and day, yeah, all night long
Uh-ninety-six tears cry cry cry
C'mon baby, let me hear you cry now, all night long
Uh-ninety-six tears! Yeah! C'mon now
Uh-ninety-six tears!

*snip*
Weird...I just compared him to Eut, and you sang him the same song you sang to Eut...

That must just be a US thing. We don't seem to find it debasing when the same thing is done here:

O Canada! Our home and native;) land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

Ô Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix;
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur de foi trempée
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits;
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.

(Translation of French)
O Canada! Land of our forefathers
Thy brow is wreathed with a glorious garland of flowers.
As in thy arm ready to wield the sword,
So also is it ready to carry the cross.
Thy history is an epic of the most brilliant exploits.
Ch.
Thy valour steeped in faith
Will protect our homes and our rights
Will protect our homes and our rights.

They don't match at all.

Native is offensive,

Their national anthem could be Lijepa nasa!

*quote*

But you have one problem in your arguement. Canada has 2 official languages so seeing it like that does not surprise me.

We don't but we should. However, when one debases the national anthem by 1) singing it in a different language and 2) changing the words, that makes me mad.

Singing it in a different language is debasing it? Congrats, that's one of the most stupid things I've read on these forums. Really.

Oh, and here I go:

Å, säg kan du se, vid gryningens tidiga ljus,
Det vi så stolt hälsade vid skymningens sista solstråle?
Vars breda ränder och ljusa stjärnor, under den farliga kampen,
Öv'r skyddsmurarna vi såg, så hjältemodigt vajade!
Och raketernas röda sken, bomberna sprickandes i luften,
Gav bevis på att vår flagga fortfarande var där!
Å, säg vajar den stjänbeströdda baneren än där?
Över de frias land, och de modigas hem!

Put that in your pipe, and smoke it!

For all the whining from all the whiners about this, it completely pales in comparison to bush desercrating the american flag:

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagbush.htm

Wrongo Buddy.

Prove me wrong.

(snip)
okey.. you want to play this game:

na·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntv)
adj.
Existing in or belonging to one by nature; innate: native ability.
Being such by birth or origin: a native Scot.
Being one's own because of the place or circumstances of one's birth: our native land.
Originating, growing, or produced in a certain place or region; indigenous: a plant native to Asia.

Being a member of the original inhabitants of a particular place.
Of, belonging to, or characteristic of such inhabitants: native dress; the native diet of Polynesia.
Occurring in nature pure or uncombined with other substances: native copper.
Natural; unaffected: native beauty.
Archaic. Closely related, as by birth or race.
Biochemistry. Of or relating to the naturally occurring conformation of a macromolecule, such as a protein.

n.

One born in or connected with a place by birth: a native of Scotland now living in the United States.
One of the original inhabitants or lifelong residents of a place.
An animal or plant that originated in a particular place or region.
na·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntv)
adj.

---
please read the italicized parts. one of the characteristics of the United States when it was first founded was that it spoke English.

Therefore English is native to the US. As far is it tying into required, i am stating that the native language is required to be taught to graduate school. While spanish is not, thus making it not native of the US.

still waiting on your take of nonverbal comm and mathematics....

I admit it's a reach, but it means you're communicating in a language other than English right now! Just something else is doing the work for you.

Can you imagine having to type out all those 1s and 0s, though? Yikes.
rofl.. i'm not communicating in a diff language :P my computer is :)

*edit*

that and yes, 1's and 0's would suck to hafta type.... (but you'd be fluent in another language... can you imagine _speaking_ in binary? hehe.)

Å, säg kan du se, vid gryningens tidiga ljus,
Det vi så stolt hälsade vid skymningens sista solstråle?
Vars breda ränder och ljusa stjärnor, under den farliga kampen,
Öv'r skyddsmurarna vi såg, så hjältemodigt vajade!
Och raketernas röda sken, bomberna sprickandes i luften,
Gav bevis på att vår flagga fortfarande var där!
Å, säg vajar den stjänbeströdda baneren än där?
Över de frias land, och de modigas hem!


You forgot to rename it.

I still say ya'll use umlauts gratuitously. :p

It will be really cool a few decades down the line when the enormous hispanic population in the US votes to make spanish effectively co-official with english and we get a dual national anthem like canada has.

You forgot to rename it.

Oh, sorry. I'll do a little play on the Swedish anthem ("Du gamla, du fria!" ~ Thou old, thou free!) and call it "Du unga, du fria," meaning "Thou young, thou free!"

I still say ya'll use umlauts gratuitously. :p

They don't count as umlauts in Swedish, they count as proper letters.

2) changing the words, that makes me mad.

Well this ought to make you really, really angry then:

http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/anacreon.html

*coff*

National anthems cannot be copyrighted. They are public domain. In any case, it was penned more than a century ago, and even if it had had a copyright, it would have expired by now.



What point? That some people are rube-ish xenophobes that see something wrong with being a bilingual society? You should be welcoming the growth of this domestic language.
wow, 11 posts into the discussion and you are already throwing the xenophobe bomb.

Can't you argue a point without resorting to demonizing your opposition?

wow, 11 posts into the discussion and you are already throwing the xenophobe bomb.

Can't you argue a point without resorting to demonizing your opposition?

Wow, and there you are, not having the thread.

This is xenophobia. There is nothing else to it. "Debased when sung in another language?" Please.

okey.. you want to play this game:

na·tive adj.

Being such by birth or origin: a native Scot.
Of, belonging to, or characteristic of such inhabitants: native dress; the native diet of Polynesia.
---
please read the italicized parts. one of the characteristics of the United States when it was first founded was that it spoke English. Therefore English is native to the US.

Ok, your definition of native is correct. Have a cookie.
Your logic leaves something to be desired.

The USA did not speak a language. Ever. Nation-states do not speak languages, people do. I assume you actually meant that the people who lived in the USA when it was founded spoke English, therefore English is a native language. Fine. Many people who lived in the USA at the time spoke Spanish. So, by your definition, Spanish is a language that is native to the USA.



As far is it tying into required, i am stating that the native language is required to be taught to graduate school. While spanish is not, thus making it not native of the US.

still waiting on your take of nonverbal comm and mathematics....

Here's where your logic goes on vacation.

I assume you meant this:
You are required to pass English class to graduate.
English is a native language.
Therefore, you are required to pass a native language course to graduate.

You then make this leap:
Since English is the only language course you have to pass in order to graduate...
it must be the only native language.:confused:

Spanish is a native language of the USA. You do not need to pass Spanish class to graduate. Think about it.

I think perhaps that people are missing the point.

I don't believe anyone is upset that the song has been translated. Possibly a few are upset because the words have been altered. Most people are upset, IMHO, because the words have been altered to support illegal immigrants and it's being used to "rally" protesters on a day of protests whose goal is to "shut down American Cities."

So, in essence this instance of translating the US National Anthem has been used to promote criminal activity and harm the economy (and we all know, it's the economy, stupid) of the US.

It's a perversion of purpose and that is what upsets people.

I, personally welcome immigrants to this country. They are the basis of our robust economy. I do NOT however support givng them the same rights and priveliges that citizens have. Why should they bother becoming citizens, if they can get drivers licences, welfare and education without paying taxes?

The Illegal Immigration movement offends me. That my National Anthem has been perverted into a ralling cry for supporters of the movement offends me.

Wow, and there you are, not having the thread.

This is xenophobia. There is nothing else to it. "Debased when sung in another language?" Please.

so it's ok for people to be xenophobic about american ideals and culture going into their country, but we can't be a xenophobe bout their's coming into ours?

so it's ok for people to be xenophobic about american ideals and culture going into their country, but we can't be a xenophobe bout their's coming into ours?

The thing is, it's not just "theirs," it's yours as well.

And being xenophobic is bad no matter where it is directed.

Ok, your definition of native is correct. Have a cookie.
Your logic leaves something to be desired.
i really like it when ppl talk condescending to me. really... i do. (gets a mop and bucket to sop up the sarcasm from the floor of his last statement)

The USA did not speak a language.
By USA i mean the people.
I assume you actually meant that the people who lived in the USA when it was founded spoke English, therefore English is a native language. Fine. Many people who lived in the USA at the time spoke Spanish. So, by your definition, Spanish is a language that is native to the USA.
The bolded text i think is a strong assumption. If many people did, how come none of the precedings(sp) or documentation such as the constitution, declaration of independence weren't in spanish too?

I disagree w/ your misconstruing of my definition.





Here's where your logic goes on vacation.

I assume you meant this:
You are required to pass English class to graduate.
English is a native language.
Therefore, you are required to pass a native language course to graduate.

You then make this leap:
Since English is the only language course you have to pass in order to graduate...
it must be the only native language.:confused:

Spanish is a native language of the USA. You do not need to pass Spanish class to graduate. Think about it.
You are under a false assumption, i disagree w/ your use of my definition. Spanish is not a native language because of the fact it is not required to graduate in a school of the United States.

on a side note, do you really hate the US this much? It seems in most threads you are against anyone supporting the US.

I think perhaps that people are missing the point.

(snip)

The Illegal Immigration movement offends me. That my National Anthem has been perverted into a ralling cry for supporters of the movement offends me.

i agree too. I'm prolly missing the point as well.

Speaking of which. does anyone actually have the lyrics they translated to? Only thing i could find is that they changed the title to "Our Anthem"

A remix to be released in June will contain several lines in English that condemn U.S. immigration laws. Among them: "These kids have no parents, cause all of these mean laws ... let's not start a war with all these hard workers, they can't help where they were born."

http://cbs4.com/entertainment/local_story_118091432.html

The song itself has the refernces to war (you know, that little revolution we had?) removed and replaced with softer references to victory or something.

http://cbs4.com/entertainment/local_story_118091432.html

The song itself has the refernces to war (you know, that little revolution we had?) removed and replaced with softer references to victory or something.

ok, that's just stupid. it's no longer the national anthem.

Ironically, this thing is being produced and promoted by a Brit living in the US for 16 years.

The bolded text i think is a strong assumption. If many people did, how come none of the precedings(sp) or documentation such as the constitution, declaration of independence weren't in spanish too?

I disagree w/ your misconstruing of my definition.
It is not an assumption. It is a documented fact.
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/spanglish/usa/

Correcting Myths
Spanish predated English in arriving in what is now the United States. For 400 years, the two languages have co-existed; today’s immigrants continue to bring variation. Phillip M. Carter explains how Spanish came to our shores and explores its many dialects.

The men who wrote the documents you mentioned were rich white anglophone landowners. They were not the entire population of the USA at the time.

So then, what is your definition of a 'native US language' then?


You are under a false assumption, i disagree w/ your use of my definition. Spanish is not a native language because of the fact it is not required to graduate in a school of the United States..

Your definition of 'native' seems to mean 'what I need to graduate'. This does not seem to be consistent with how the rest of the english speaking world uses this word.

But you have one problem in your arguement. Canada has 2 official languages so seeing it like that does not surprise me.
No, I realise that...but you have no official languages...so why should it matter what language the song is in? And if the translations differ...so what?

Gift-of-God, I a bit confused as to why you even think that's remotely connected to this issue and why you keep hacking away at it?

Frankly it's a tired old message board tactic of diverting from the issue at hand. Sadly, many people are following right along with you as if it that re-hash and re-write of history were relevant.

http://cbs4.com/entertainment/local_story_118091432.html

The song itself has the refernces to war (you know, that little revolution we had?) removed and replaced with softer references to victory or something.
I'd like to see the Spanish version before I buy your interpretation of someone's interpretation.

By the way, the song has obviously been translated into Spanish before...many times in fact. See here (http://spanish.about.com/cs/culture/a/usanthem.htm) for some of the versions.
But I'd like to see the version they are planning to use.

It is not an assumption. It is a documented fact.
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/spanglish/usa/
ok, spanish was here 400 years before english... so why then, isn't it the predominant language spoken in the US? why isn't it the predominant language taught in schools?


The men who wrote the documents you mentioned were rich white anglophone landowners. They were not the entire population of the USA at the time.
which were representatives of the population.

So then, what is your definition of a 'native US language' then?
the primary language spoken by the US, the one that was used to found the nation. the one that is required to graduate.




Your definition of 'native' seems to mean 'what I need to graduate'. This does not seem to be consistent with how the rest of the english speaking world uses this word.
Everyone looks at things differently. And now i'm going to start ignoring your replies like you have my request for your disseration on mathematics in non-verbal communication.

it has become obvious to me that you're not going to agree with anything i say. IMO because you take all your stances against anything American.

Gift-of-God, I a bit confused as to why you even think that's remotely connected to this issue and why you keep hacking away at it?

Frankly it's a tired old message board tactic of diverting from the issue at hand. Sadly, many people are following right along with you as if it that re-hash and re-write of history were relevant.

Good point. I guess it's because I got caught up with Mirchaz's statement about what is a language native to the USA, and allowed myself to go on a tangent.

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

To me, it seems the issue at hand is about how this song is being received by people.

The original intent, according to the article in the OP, was to provide a focus of solidarity for people who are protesting for immigrant rights in the USA right now. It is supposed to be a path for integration, and a way of showing gratitude to the USA by the hispanic people who live in the USA.

However, some people see it as an insult, as the singers are taking an important symbol and creating another version of it for their own purposes. I think this debate is about why people feel that way, and the logic, if any, behind it.

The song itself has the refernces to war (you know, that little revolution we had?) removed and replaced with softer references to victory or something.
Actually, the Star Spangled Banner is referring to the war of 1812 in its verses. It was a British siege of one of the forts, and on seeing how the flag was still waving on it after a night of bombardment, the author felt inspired to write a poem.

But this Spanish translation is quite silly, yes. And in this case it was done more for sectorial reason and advancing an agenda than for patriotism.

Could have been worse, though. They could have used the America football club anthem:

América, América
Estoy contigo oye mi corazón
América, América
No te detengas tú serás el campeón.

Hoy mira el águila que llega
Majestuosa y audaz
Oye su canto es el canto
Del que viene a triunfar.

Puaj!

IMO because you take all your stances against anything American.
Ah. The 'you're anti-UnitedStatesian' card...akin to calling someone a racist regardless of their actions. Gift-of-God is anti-illogic. Not even your nation holds a monopoly on that...though some of you have us ALMOST convinced...:p

The original spanish lyrics can be found here:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-060426nuestro,0,6454902.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Could have been worse, though. They could have used the America football club anthem: HAHAHAHA...I know this song as the Colo-Colo (http://www.colocolo.cl/) anthem!

Colo-Colo, Colo-Colo
Estoy contigo oye mi corazón
Colo-Colo, Colo-Colo
No te detengas tú serás el campeón. *bum bum bum*
No te detengas tú serás el campeón. *bum bum bum*
¡No te detengas tú serás el campeón!

Hoy mira el águila que llega
Majestuosa y audaz
Oye su canto es el canto
Del que viene a triunfar.*bum bum bum*
Del que viene a triunfar.*bum bum bum*
Del que viene a triunfar.

The original spanish lyrics can be found here:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-060426nuestro,0,6454902.story?coll=chi-news-hed
Ok. It's officially (officially in the sense that I declare it thus) a stupid song. Maybe it'll sound good with a reggaetón, culo-shaking beat? But wouldn't that be why they changed the name? It isn't acutally the anthem..it just takes lines from it? I mean...it's not like they're saying that people are going to stand and salute and sing this song IN PLACE of the anthem...are they?

Good point. I guess it's because I got caught up with Mirchaz's statement about what is a language native to the USA, and allowed myself to go on a tangent.
agreed, time to get back on topic.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12521196/

has one of the lyrical changes:

An alternate version to be released next month includes a rap in English that never occurred to Francis Scott Key:

Let's not start a war

With all these hard workers

They can't help where they were born

In the Spanish version, the translation of the first stanza is relatively faithful to the spirit of the original, though Kidron says the producers wanted to avoid references to bombs and rockets. Instead, there is "fierce combat." The translation of the more obscure second stanza is almost a rewrite, with phrases such as "we are equal, we are brothers."

meh... i don't think it's the national anthem anymore... i see only a minor problem w/ not saying bombs and rockets, but "fierce combat" conveys that. However, completely changing the lyrics to let's not start a war w/ the workers.... It changes the meaning of the anthem.

Ok. It's officially (officially in the sense that I declare it thus) a stupid song.

Yeah, on page 6 or 7 of this thread, you can read my crappy translation.

I agree with you concerning the point. I doubt our attitudes coincide about the song, but at least we're on the same page. :)



The very fact that the proceeds go to an organization supporting illegal immigration irritates me. The producer of the album states openly that the song is designed to show solidarity for the illegal immirgants. This is what has got me bent out of shape. Not so much the translation (Heck, the only thing I remember from French class is the Pledge hehe).

To the person looking for lyrics: The records company will release the full lyrics on Sunday.

Yeah, on page 6 or 7 of this thread, you can read my crappy translation.
I'd only do so to diss your translation and offer up mine as superior;)

Edit: actually, well done.

Ah. The 'you're anti-UnitedStatesian' card...akin to calling someone a racist regardless of their actions. Gift-of-God is anti-illogic. Not even your nation holds a monopoly on that...though some of you have us ALMOST convinced...:p
yes, i don't like the term USian. :P it's only a few keystrokes shorter than American. :P so it's not all that faster to type.

HAHAHAHA...I know this song as the Colo-Colo (http://www.colocolo.cl/) anthem!

I'm pretty sure they recycle all these anthems. Why make them again when you can just change a few words?

yes, i don't like the term USian. :P it's only a few keystrokes shorter than American. :P so it's not all that faster to type.
Sorry, I've declared in another thread that I will only use estadounidense (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10850444&postcount=880) or United Statesian (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10850457&postcount=883), or citizen of the US, or people of the US. You'll notice I'm also giving up the shortened version, USian.

I'm pretty sure they recycle all these anthems. Why make them again when you can just change a few words?
Especially when you're at a fútbol match, plastered out of your mind, and you can only remember three songs at the most...

That's what you get from taking territories from Mexico and Spain. If you didn't like them you shouldn't have brought them into your collective.

And here we get to the heart of the problem: the "migrant rights" movement overlaps with the irridentist movement to reclaim the southwest for Mexico. And people wonder why many Americans get edgy when protesters wave Mexican flags and insist everything be translated into Spanish.

I bet the Romans had this same dialogue when they couldn't keep the Goths from migrating into the Empire.

I don't see what the problem is. It seems like this anthem in spanish will help immigrants more patriotic towards the US if they will be singing it's praises.

And here we get to the heart of the problem: the "migrant rights" movement overlaps with the irridentist movement to reclaim the southwest for Mexico. And people wonder why many Americans get edgy when protesters wave Mexican flags and insist everything be translated into Spanish.
But Mexicans are American too! And besides, what difference would it make? Mexican ministers go to the US Congress to answer questions, the US president orders policy to the Mexican president, the Mexican oil company artificially increase production at the behest of the US, even if it depletes the fields, Mexico buys almost all its food an technology from the US, etc. etc.

Even if you gave the Southwest back to Mexico it would be giving it to yourselves. It might even help to save on tax or something.

I bet the Romans had this same dialogue when they couldn't keep the Goths from migrating into the Empire.
At least the Goths kept pretty much to themselves. The problem were the Emos who followed what with cutting themselves and not being good to use as soldiers and sulking too much to be proper slaves.

Sorry, I've declared in another thread that I will only use estadounidense (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10850444&postcount=880) or United Statesian (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10850457&postcount=883), or citizen of the US, or people of the US. You'll notice I'm also giving up the shortened version, USian.
yah, as long as you don't use USian :P other people from the international realm will still call me american, and you'll still understand that ppl are talking about the citizens of the US when they say it.

I don't see what the problem is. It seems like this anthem in spanish will help immigrants more patriotic towards the US if they will be singing it's praises.
despite the fact that they changed the lyrics? nothing...

despite the fact that they changed the lyrics? nothing...


still I dont see any problem with changing the lyrics either.

And I'm a USian.

Ok. It's officially (officially in the sense that I declare it thus) a stupid song.

Umm, so is the original, you know. They worked with what they had.

yah, as long as you don't use USian :P other people from the international realm will still call me american, and you'll still understand that ppl are talking about the citizens of the US when they say it.

After that 50 page thread the other day about 'USian', the thought of using that term actually turns my stomach a bit.

The article posted in the OP has a funny line for us Canuks:

While critics sketch a nightmare scenario of a Canada-like land with an anthem sung in two languages, immigrant rights advocates say they agree learning English is essential.

still I dont see any problem with changing the lyrics either.

And I'm a USian.

you can be whatever you want. That term will never be used anywhere but an internet forum. It's not proper.

Oh yeah...the anthem in French and English really is a nightmare over here...we are sleepless because of it...by the way, did you listen to the Cree version? Now don't you agree one with drummers would be WAY COOLER?

After that 50 page thread the other day about 'USian', the thought of using that term actually turns my stomach a bit.

The article posted in the OP has a funny line for us Canuks:
:D
Quite the nightmarish scenario they've got there. I pray we collectively wake up soon.:p

you can be whatever you want. That term will never be used anywhere but an internet forum. It's not proper.
Neither is ain't. But it's in many a dictionary now....HA!

you can be whatever you want. That term will never be used anywhere but an internet forum. It's not proper.


Apparently that isn't true. SOmeone was sayignthey belonged to a USian club at school.

Plus I've used it outside of the internet.

Umm, so is the original, you know. They worked with what they had.
the original had good meaning. Do you do anything but troll?

Now, are we going to restart the "USian" debate or are we going to talk about the nightmare that is translating a song in another language?

Neither is ain't. But it's in many a dictionary now....HA!
cos ain't is a contraction of sorts :P USian is just an acroynym w/ ian stuck at the end of it :P

What point? That some people are rube-ish xenophobes that see something wrong with being a bilingual society? You should be welcoming the growth of this domestic language.
I don't want to learn spanish, I don't want to have to read Spanish, I don't want Road signs to be massive because they have to have them written in two languages, So I guess I'm an Xenophobe right? Fass sometimes you're just out of it.

Oh yeah...the anthem in French and English really is a nightmare over here...we are sleepless because of it...by the way, did you listen to the Cree version? Now don't you agree one with drummers would be WAY COOLER?

I don't have a sound card. Sorry.

I don't have a sound card. Sorry.
*is aghast*
What kind of defunct technology are you using??????? Your 8-track player???

:D
Quite the nightmarish scenario they've got there. I pray we collectively wake up soon.:p

Moi aussi!:D

Apparently that isn't true. SOmeone was sayignthey belonged to a USian club at school.

Plus I've used it outside of the internet.

wth is a USian club? o... have you been to usian.org yet? :P you have? In a written or spoken sense?

East Canuck - Now, are we going to restart the "USian" debate or are we going to talk about the nightmare that is translating a song in another language?

translating it shouldn't be that difficult... but i guess changing the lyrics could be a nightmare.

*is aghast*
What kind of defunct technology are you using??????? Your 8-track player???

Yep. I have the entire bee-gees collection.

These guys translated the National Anthem of the US and then renamed it? Who the heck gave them permission to do that?
It's public domain, they don't need permission.

translating it shouldn't be that difficult...
Spoken like someone who's never had to do it. Translation IS a nightmare. You need to keep the cadence of the song, and also maintain the integrity of the meaning by choosing the best equivalents. Equivalents...few words translate directly. Changing the lyrics altogether is much easier.

the original had good meaning. Do you do anything but troll?

I read the lyrics, even translating them to Swedish, (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10856453&postcount=168) and they're crap. The melody is annoying, and prone to abuse by singers who try their best fixing it through wailing and other sorts of vocal trinkets meant to disguise how musically substandard it is, giving the old saying "if the song sucks, wail, wail, wail!" renewed meaning.

I don't want to learn spanish, I don't want to have to read Spanish, I don't want Road signs to be massive because they have to have them written in two languages, So I guess I'm an Xenophobe right?

That, and apparently lazy, not to mention sort of ignorant for not wanting to learn a new language.

Fass sometimes you're just out of it.

I calls it like I sees it.

wth is a USian club? o... have you been to usian.org yet? :P you have? In a written or spoken sense?



No, never heard of it. I jus found this though:

The word Usian (pronounced "YOU-zhuhn"; SAMPA: 'yuZ@n]) (or Usanian, USAian, Usonian, Columbard, Fredonian, Frede, Unisan, United Statesian, Colonican, Appalacian, Uessian, U-S-ian, Uesican, USAn, Usan, or rarely Columbian or Washingtonian) is one of the many attempts to coin an adjective--specifically, a demonym[?]--for United States nationals, as an unambiguous alternative to American, which is the term usually used. Mentions of the word, and proposals to use it (or close variants), have been around at least since the first half of the 20th century, but it isn't in common use.
Use of the word has been practiced and advocated to distinguish U.S. nationals from people living in other countries in the Americas.

The concern that motivates use of the word is that, since America is part of the names of both North America and South America, it follows that American means, or ought to be understood to mean, "inhabitant of the Americas".

This takes on political and historical significance because of various doctrines, including manifest destiny, the Monroe Doctrine, jingoism, imperialism, anti-communism, oil imperialism and the Bush Doctrine. These have explicitly or implicitly or reputedly advocated explicit control of the Americas, and points far beyond, by the government of the United States. Citizens of that nation that wish to distance themselves from these goals, notably advocates of pacifism or isolationism or secession are more likely to use the term usian.

Since such movements have a long history and have motivated much of the colonization of North America, there are many variations of this idea and term. Other words that have been suggested for the same purpose are Columbian, Columbard, Fredonian, Frede, Unisian, United Statesian, Colonican, Appalacian, Washingtonian, Usonian ("Usonian" is an adaptation from Esperanto, apparently coined by Zamenhof; among its users was Frank Lloyd Wright), Uessian, U-S-ian, and Uesican (in approximately historical order from 1789 to 1939, according to Merriam Webster's Dictionary of English Usage).


Wow so I didn't make the "word" up. That kinda sucks

I'd love to be fluent in another language (more like several) but it's freakin tough! I know some spanish, some french and some tagalog but I couldnt really read something from those and translate the bulk of it sadly.

They say if you dont learn a second language by the time yer like 10 or something then it's extreemely difficult right?

So, two mexicans, Raul and Jose, slip across the border one day to watch a baseball game in the USA. Now, being mexican, they don't have any money, so when they get to the stadium, they're stuck outside and can't see the game.
"What are we going to do?" says Jose.
"Why don't you climb up the flagpole there, and then you can look over the wall. You can describe what's going on to me, and halfway through, you climb down, and I'll go up," Raul decides.
So Jose climbs up to Old Glory, and waits for the game to start. However, just when they start singing the national anthem, Jose quickly slides down the pole and starts running away. Raul finally catches up to him, and asks him what went wrong.
"They saw me, hombre. They saw me!"
"How do you know?"
"Well, just when the music started, the entire stadium looked at me and sang: Jose, can you see...

They say if you dont learn a second language by the time yer like 10 or something then it's extreemely difficult right?

No. It's more difficult, but no extremely. You see me speaking English, no? Here's a clue: I didn't speak it as a child. What you have to do is apply yourself. Why do you think I spend time on an English board, because it's oh, so much fun? Please. Because I need to keep my English alive and usable. You just have to stop being lazy.

No. It's more difficult, but no extremely. You see me speaking English, no? Here's a clue: I didn't speak it as a child. What you have to do is apply yourself. Why do you think I spend time on an English board, because it's oh, so much fun? Please. Because I need to keep my English alive and usable. You just have to stop being lazy.
You bastard. That's exactly why I thought you were here.

I turn my back on you. Get your English kicks elsewhere!

Spoken like someone who's never had to do it. Translation IS a nightmare. You need to keep the cadence of the song, and also maintain the integrity of the meaning by choosing the best equivalents. Equivalents...few words translate directly. Changing the lyrics altogether is much easier.
for song i bet it's a nightmare. but for everyday use? ....

i wouldn't mind if they translated the song to different words to fit the cadence of the song. it's just when they change it and change the meaning of the song.

I read the lyrics, even translating them to Swedish, and they're crap. The melody is annoying, and prone to abuse by singers who try their best fixing it through wailing and other sorts of vocal trinkets meant to disguise how musically substandard it is, giving the old saying "if the song sucks, wail, wail, wail!" renewed meaning.
it's your opinion they're crap. I personally like both the melody and lyrics.

it's your opinion they're crap. I personally like both the melody and lyrics.

Well, gee, whiz, Sherlock - and I thought it was someone else's. Now I can stop looking for that person to return it to. Thank you.

No. It's more difficult, but no extremely. You see me speaking English, no? Here's a clue: I didn't speak it as a child. What you have to do is apply yourself. Why do you think I spend time on an English board, because it's oh, so much fun? Please. Because I need to keep my English alive and usable. You just have to stop being lazy.

Well I took French class and excelled at it but I never used it so I forgot everything. I should have taken spanish since it would ahve been a lot more practical in Los Angeles. *sigh* I suck

Lazyness is my forte

You bastard. That's exactly why I thought you were here.

I turn my back on you. Get your English kicks elsewhere!

I shall surely lament this. Soon. Anytime now.

Well, gee, whiz, Sherlock - and I thought it was someone else's. Now I can stop looking for that person to return it to. Thank you.
So why is it you act like a prick?

So why is it you act like a prick?

So why is it you say stupid things? Who knows.

So why is it you say stupid things? Who knows.
because i hafta respond in a manner in which stupid ppl will understand.

i didn't know men could pms... either.

Niños, por favor. Pórtense bien.

Niños, por favor. Pórtense bien.
haha...


"but but, he started it!"

Way off topic:

Every message board has it's self-righteous, pompous, resident prick and those that think they can change that prick's character by constantly telling them what a prick they are.

In my experience the resident prick likes his/her role and revels in the attention. The resident prick would be nothing without those who wished to save them. Group dynamics are fun.

Back on topic:

I don't think railing against the song will solve anything. I do wonder if it will make people get off their lazy asses and pay attention at the polls next week. I find it odd and very interesting that the primaries coincide with this. Very interesting.

Niños, por favor. Pórtense bien.

C'est à moi d'être méchant avec les autres enfants aujourd'hui. Il te faudra attendre ton propre tour.