NationStates Jolt Archive

no, I'd say we're saying completely different things here. Not saying the same thing different ways. You said that muslims should all have to deal with being treated like shit because of a minority of the followers. I said every person should be judged based on the full content of who they are, not because they happen to call themselves something.
And?
I prefer to have a reflective policy. They paint us one way, we do the same.

hmm maybe we should just curtail our freedom of speech to appease them. wait we tried that...it didn't work with nazis doubt it will work with muslims...see another comparison:P

hmm maybe we should just curtail our freedom of speech to appease them. wait we tried that...it didn't work with nazis doubt it will work with muslims...see another comparison:P
Hey Verd ... don't know if you caught this one ....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10456830&postcount=6

BTW, thanks for props on the debator thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=467037 But not in the same manner. to the Muslims, Jesus is and was nothing more than a prophet. (please correct me if I'm wrong on this.) but in Christianity, he is the son of God. didn't see any differing opinions in the stated thread.

And while I do hold Wikipedia as a great source, I would rather hear that from the Muslims/Islamic Faith here on NS.

Actually, that last line of the Jesus article just got updated very recently, nobody appears to of reaserched that claim and quite frankly, im pretty sure that Muslims do not consider Jesus to be God, just one of God's most beloved prophets.

I'm just a 15 year old half-Hispanic, half-Indian Muslim in the 10th grade, born and raised in California.
Interesting mix...

I think I still have to support Islam. They did keep the Classical stuff alive and challenged Christians. It is sad some have come into conflict with Jews. In the end, I think I still have to support Islam.

I've tried to point this out before, but you and I are in agreement sir, Uh, no. I don't think so.Jesus did not come to preach only a message of peace, joy, happiness, and a rich and fulfilling life. Quite the contrary, He said that those who believe in Him will be persecuted for their faith, that the possibility of a rich man entering heaven is as possible as a camel fitting through the eye of a needle, and that through being born again of the spirit you would recieve everlasting life. It's not about how fuzzy and wunderful we can make our lives here, it's about saving our souls and gaining everlasting life in heaven, but in the meantime, peace on earth isn't the objective, if you ever read the book of revelations, you'll get a very good sense of that alright. Also, Jesus tells us not to spend time mourning for those who are dead or worrying over death, quite the contrary, He said that we should not stay behind if, for example, we have to bury our dad or something. Worry is not the objective, Matthew 6:25-34 says its not the objective, living life with the goal of suffering is not the objective since you can achieve suffering in life while not evangelising, I see no problem here. Though, I can fully understand and appreciate why you'd feel that Christianity does come across with the objective of either suffering or peaceful fluffy pillows of love type feelings, I have to be on guard against some televangelists myself, sometimes i'll hear them say something and i'll go "Eww, read the Bible instead of making stuff up, time to turn the channel.".I don't accept your version of Jesus' message. I question everything. His words weren't recorded in written form by him but second hand. They have been translated and interpreted for two millenia. They have been subjected to the influence of men over the centuries, many of whom had less than altruistic intentions when they decided what would constitute what we call the Bible. Living a good and just life, showing compassion to your fellows and making a positive contribution to the world should be enough to entitle someone to whatever reward lies beyond the grave. Swearing allegiance to some religion should not be a prerequisite and I can't be convinced that it is. The concept of a heavenly reward that can be had only if you "accept christ" is a devious creation of men to perpetuate organized religion. Centuries of corruption, death and lies perpetuated by various religions in the name of God support my belief. I firmly believe that the focus of our life should be living, not some promised ethereal afterlife. My opinion is that a focus on salvation is a bane on our existance, a slight of hand to facilitate the corrupt in their nefarious design.

No. We definitely are not in agreement.

Hey Verd ... don't know if you caught this one ....

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10456830&postcount=6

BTW, thanks for props on the debator thread.

yeah I caught it...and he was right they were generalizations..to prove you could compare islam and nazism.

yeah I caught it...and he was right they were generalizations..to prove you could compare islam and nazism.
Well it certainly appeared to piss him off.

Well it certainly appeared to piss him off.
I am not responsible for other peoples feelings. I am an american and my first amendment right is to say things that piss people off. just like I as an american have to allow others to say things that piss me off. works both ways that pesky 1st amendment. aren't you supposed to be at work?

I am not responsible for other peoples feelings. I am an american and my first amendment right is to say things that piss people off. just like I as an american have to allow others to say things that piss me off. works both ways that pesky 1st amendment. aren't you supposed to be at work?
My subjects took the day off to observe President's Day. *nods*
That, and i've been disillusioned in my pursuit to enlist in the MXC and Mythbusters contests. AK is void *profanity of unimaginable caliber*

If it helps, though, i'm still in my underwear. *nods*

Uh, no. I don't think so.I don't accept your version of Jesus' message. I question everything. His words weren't recorded in written form by him but second hand. They have been translated and interpreted for two millenia. They have been subjected to the influence of men over the centuries, many of whom had less than altruistic intentions when they decided what would constitute what we call the Bible. Living a good and just life, showing compassion to your fellows and making a positive contribution to the world should be enough to entitle someone to whatever reward lies beyond the grave. Swearing allegiance to some religion should not be a prerequisite and I can't be convinced that it is. The concept of a heavenly reward that can be had only if you "accept christ" is a devious creation of men to perpetuate organized religion. Centuries of corruption, death and lies perpetuated by various religions in the name of God support my belief. I firmly believe that the focus of our life should be living, not some promised ethereal afterlife. My opinion is that a focus on salvation is a bane on our existance, a slight of hand to facilitate the corrupt in their nefarious design.

No. We definitely are not in agreement.

Well I certainly can't force you to trust the Bible, but regardless, I maintain the Bible is not about cuddly pillows of love for one's life, I could go more deeply into citations if you wish, and regardless of how much you deny it, both of us apparently agree that Christanity or, for that matter, any religion should not focus solely on how happy and peaceful and lovable and kind and sweet they can make us, otherwise, there is a problem one way or another down the line. I am displaying my opinion with the Bible in mind as much as possible, so regardless of whether you view it as being historically accurate or not, im standing by it's literal message, which agrees that Jesus did not die to simply bring in a wonderful plan for our lives here on earth so to speak. And furthermore, your not going to find a verse in the Bible that says that we must swear allegiance to a Christian-esque religious body of people to gain eternal salvation, it's just not in there, which conviently is a wonderful observation to dismantle many forms of cult logic. So please, don't be convinced by an argument that says you have to join the church to be saved, it's not Biblical in the slightest. And yes, many people who call themselves Christians can say very un-Biblical things, don't be afraid to actually test people's claims about what Christianity is or is not, including my own claims, hey, im not perfect after all, I might get something wrong.

And what made you the judge, jury, and executioner of what should and should not constitute how one gets to heaven? It would seem to me that if one looked at it from a purely human perspective, such an ideaology would be highly relative at best, and convienently enough, it's such relativism over the subject which has often led to the many deaths, lies, and corruptions in the past for religion, with some churches saying that they know you must join them to recieve salvation, other groups saying you must kill someone from another group to gain eternal salvation, and other groups still have said we should institute a, what, 250 year long inquisition to "test" people to see if their saved, through purely man-invented means? The point is, looking at things through a human view has always been what has caused all the problems many people see with religion, because once your looking at things through your own personal view and ignoring everything else, there's nothing stopping you from bending the rules since you don't even recognize any, much less the ones in the Bible. With looking at things through our own, quite frankly, rather untrustworthy views of things, the chance is always there that anybody can come along and instigate whatever, all in the name of their own personal opinions of what God or religion really is.

And?
I prefer to have a reflective policy. They paint us one way, we do the same.
therefore, you saying "potato/potahtoe" makes no sense. Its more accurate to say potato/football.

Well I certainly can't force you to trust the Bible, but regardless, I maintain the Bible is not about cuddly pillows of love for one's life, I could go more deeply into citations if you wish, and regardless of how much you deny it, both of us apparently agree that Christanity or, for that matter, any religion should not focus solely on how happy and peaceful and lovable and kind and sweet they can make us, otherwise, there is a problem one way or another down the line. I am displaying my opinion with the Bible in mind as much as possible, so regardless of whether you view it as being historically accurate or not, im standing by it's literal message, which agrees that Jesus did not die to simply bring in a wonderful plan for our lives here on earth so to speak. And furthermore, your not going to find a verse in the Bible that says that we must swear allegiance to a Christian-esque religious body of people to gain eternal salvation, it's just not in there, which conviently is a wonderful observation to dismantle many forms of cult logic. So please, don't be convinced by an argument that says you have to join the church to be saved, it's not Biblical in the slightest. And yes, many people who call themselves Christians can say very un-Biblical things, don't be afraid to actually test people's claims about what Christianity is or is not, including my own claims, hey, im not perfect after all, I might get something wrong.You seem to be intent on finding common ground between us but again I must contend your assertion. I don't have an opinion on what the focus of a particular organized religion should be because I frankly don't see the need or justification for any organized religion. Discussion of any part of the bible with me must also be tempered with the knowledge that I consider it to be a well published piece of fiction with some historical basis. To consider it the word of "God" is to egotisticly assume not only that mankind can understand the intentions and thoughts of any supreme being or force, but that such a being (if it exists) actually considers humankind worth considering at all. It's the appex of arrogance that we should consider ourselves capable of a dialogue with whatever unifying force rules the universe.

And what made you the judge, jury, and executioner of what should and should not constitute how one gets to heaven? It would seem to me that if one looked at it from a purely human perspective, such an ideaology would be highly relative at best, and convienently enough, it's such relativism over the subject which has often led to the many deaths, lies, and corruptions in the past for religion, with some churches saying that they know you must join them to recieve salvation, other groups saying you must kill someone from another group to gain eternal salvation, and other groups still have said we should institute a, what, 250 year long inquisition to "test" people to see if their saved, through purely man-invented means? The point is, looking at things through a human view has always been what has caused all the problems many people see with religion, because once your looking at things through your own personal view and ignoring everything else, there's nothing stopping you from bending the rules since you don't even recognize any, much less the ones in the Bible. With looking at things through our own, quite frankly, rather untrustworthy views of things, the chance is always there that anybody can come along and instigate whatever, all in the name of their own personal opinions of what God or religion really is.I don't assume to be "judge, jury, and executioner of what should and should not constitute how one gets to heaven". If you've been paying attention my arguements were strictly hypothetical, I'm not convinced that there even is an afterlife. But I do stand by my assertion that if there is, the method of attaining entrance you advocate is not the only way in. I recognize rules, basic human truths. I don't need religion to point out that which is inherent in man. Also since I don't trust religion or believe in it, I can't be duped by it or anyone acting in it's name.

LETS JUST KILL ALL HUMANS!!!!!!!!!!! FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!





www.ogrish.com

Well I certainly can't force you to trust the Bible, but regardless, I maintain the Bible is not about cuddly pillows of love for one's life, I could go more deeply into citations if you wish, and regardless of how much you deny it, both of us apparently agree that Christanity or, for that matter, any religion should not focus solely on how happy and peaceful and lovable and kind and sweet they can make us, otherwise, there is a problem one way or another down the line. I am displaying my opinion with the Bible in mind as much as possible, so regardless of whether you view it as being historically accurate or not, im standing by it's literal message, which agrees that Jesus did not die to simply bring in a wonderful plan for our lives here on earth so to speak. And furthermore, your not going to find a verse in the Bible that says that we must swear allegiance to a Christian-esque religious body of people to gain eternal salvation, it's just not in there, which conviently is a wonderful observation to dismantle many forms of cult logic. So please, don't be convinced by an argument that says you have to join the church to be saved, it's not Biblical in the slightest. And yes, many people who call themselves Christians can say very un-Biblical things, don't be afraid to actually test people's claims about what Christianity is or is not, including my own claims, hey, im not perfect after all, I might get something wrong.

And what made you the judge, jury, and executioner of what should and should not constitute how one gets to heaven? It would seem to me that if one looked at it from a purely human perspective, such an ideaology would be highly relative at best, and convienently enough, it's such relativism over the subject which has often led to the many deaths, lies, and corruptions in the past for religion, with some churches saying that they know you must join them to recieve salvation, other groups saying you must kill someone from another group to gain eternal salvation, and other groups still have said we should institute a, what, 250 year long inquisition to "test" people to see if their saved, through purely man-invented means? The point is, looking at things through a human view has always been what has caused all the problems many people see with religion, because once your looking at things through your own personal view and ignoring everything else, there's nothing stopping you from bending the rules since you don't even recognize any, much less the ones in the Bible. With looking at things through our own, quite frankly, rather untrustworthy views of things, the chance is always there that anybody can come along and instigate whatever, all in the name of their own personal opinions of what God or religion really is.
Religion is a simple one. Whatever God is isn't. And it's not the kind of thing people are good at dealing with anyway. The more naive tend to think that the order and cadence of religion is devotion to the ideals of "God", but it's not, its just a coordinated sequence of ceremony that helps to reinforce the ideals, mores and directive of a bunch of humans who want to have an angle on answering people's questions about human suffering, emotional desparity and the nature of relatively ineffable things ... for which people mistakenly attribute trust and loyalty. Thus it becomes political leverage, and no better than that.

With looking at things through our own, quite frankly, rather untrustworthy views of things, the chance is always there that anybody can come along and instigate whatever, all in the name of their own personal opinions of what God or religion really is.

The part you never get is that your beliefs about the bible and religions are a result of your own "rather untrustworthy" view of things, and completely based on your own personal opinions of what God or religion really is.

You constantly fall back on "the bible" but in the end, its only your own interpretation, beliefs and views about the bible, which you now admit are untrustworthy.

wow this has gotten off topic...wasn't the topic about how myself and some others had offended some 15 year old muslim and made him feel less about his religious beliefs, because we kept bringing up how others who avow to share those beliefs keep killing people for no good reason.

wow this has gotten off topic...wasn't the topic about how myself and some others had offended some 15 year old muslim and made him feel less about his religious beliefs, because we kept bringing up how others who avow to share those beliefs keep killing people for no good reason.
Well, you and a few others could start saying more offensive things to that person, and i guess you'd get a full circle! *shrugs*
We're still somewhere near the topic ... beliefs and offense.

shoot me an email I don't think I have yours...I have something for you.

shoot me an email I don't think I have yours...I have something for you.
Is it ticklish? :D

Theorb is just about the only non dogmatic Christian I've ever seen. He actually listens to us.

Theorb is just about the only non dogmatic Christian I've ever seen. He actually listens to us.
Rare breed, indeed. *nods*


EDIT: I'd also like to give props to Stone Bridges who made a remarkable and admirable post earlier today. Here's the link:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469926

It's worth perusal if any of y'all haven't already.

interesting conversation... I have no desire to debate.. only to share a joke I heard on The Simpsons tonight:


Bart: Soul? Come on, Milhouse, there is no such thing as a soul.
It's just something they made up to scare kids, like the
bogeyman, or Michael Jackson.

Milhouse: But every religion says there's a soul, Bart. Why would they
lie? What would they have to gain?
[Lovejoy, in his office, works a change sorting machine]

:D

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.
Well here's the thing. You're fortunate in that you're in America, and you'll have ample opportunities to pick what's the more important team to be on. In fact if the Islamists get what they want, America will probably be one of the few places where the religion is still practiced. So bonus for you.

The problem is people who claim to believe the same things you do put the trust you may well have a right to in doubt. Some people will want you to prove yourself. They'll want a more definitive statment on your part about what your values are. If you're position, is "I don't have to prove anything" they may interpret that differently, perhaps harshly. Because you're still a kid, and particularly the gulf between 15 and say 25 is huge, your momentary decisions generally won't be held against you by anyone who's not a peer. Undeservedly, you've been cast in to the shadow of doubt. But it wasn't I, the others you quoted, or even the anonymous people who might encounter throughout the day that put you there. Draw the brightline between yourself and those who did put you in this unenviable situation, and those who you feel to be your critics will largely be satisfied. They want to be sure that you neither know, understand nor empathize with those ass-hats anymore than they do.

If you think that most kids don't grow up with similar, if less prominent, problems you're deluding yourself. Which of course is the nature of growing up. :) As long as you're interested in what I think on the subject, proving yourself can be as simple as saying, "Fuck you, I'm an American." So yeah, a little outrage and at whom it is directed, that's what people who ask want to know about you, fire away.

Well here's the thing. You're fortunate in that you're in America, and you'll have ample opportunities to pick what's the more important team to be on. In fact if the Islamists get what they want, America will probably be one of the few places where the religion is still practiced. So bonus for you.

<SNIP>WTF? More important team? If Islamists get what they want? You mean like US withdrawl from Muslim holy sites? How will that effect whorship in the US.


Why do people with closed minds always open their mouths?

(But at least he realized the problem with his statement, but his message wasn't exactly an uncommon one. Here's his apology: )








First of all, what the flying fuck have I done to get this done to me?

I'm just a 15 year old half-Hispanic, half-Indian Muslim in the 10th grade, born and raised in California.

In General, in the streets, in school, and in the world, asshattery like this has been growing so goddamn fast because some fucking idiots decide to demand blood for a cartoon.

Well guess fucking what?

I'm not only a better person than you'll obviously ever become, but I'm NOT the equivelent to a retard running around blowing himself up and claiming to be a good Muslim!

Kids at school are coming to me and expecting to be an apologist for the people rioting over the "cartoons." I blame every single idiotic fool to condemns Islam and who doesn't take 10 seconds out of their day to learn a little.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.

Sorry kid, you live in a country with a bunch of ignorant fucking people that won't believe anything unless its on Fox "News"-- look who they voted for for president TWICE.

Sorry kid, you live in a country with a bunch of ignorant fucking people that won't believe anything unless its on Fox "News"-- look who they voted for for president TWICE.
But that's because only the stupid people voted. If they hadn't voted, no president would have been elected.:gundge:

WTF? More important team? If Islamists get what they want? You mean like US withdrawl from Muslim holy sites? How will that effect whorship in the US.


Why do people with closed minds always open their mouths?
The Islamists want the whole world to be Muslim or else, and in the meantime they want George Bush, or another evangelical, to be President, because Al Gore is a jew. I've seen them tell it to the BBC. Aljezeera, and Thomas Friedman. I'm inclined to take them at THEIR word, nor yours. It's called a clue, try one.

interesting conversation... I have no desire to debate.. only to share a joke I heard on The Simpsons tonight:



:D
I like the "breath" part. And, Lisa's a cool sister. *nods*
There's a few other threads that could use this post, as well.

Well guess fucking what?

I'm not only a better person than you'll obviously ever become, but I'm NOT the equivelent to a retard running around blowing himself up and claiming to be a good Muslim!

Hey, that guy's fulfilling his obligations to jihad. It is the duty of every Muslim. What have you done to combat the infidel?

I blame every single idiotic fool to condemns Islam and who doesn't take 10 seconds out of their day to learn a little.

That's just it. People are starting to learn a little. Turns out Mohammed was a barbarian and the Qu'ran, where it hasn't been abrogated, is nouthing but violent.

Jesus fucking Christ.

And there we have it--why no moderate Muslim is worth listening to. Blasphemy against a prophet. If you were a real Muslim you wouldn't say that, because you're not allowed to. Once again you have demonstrated that the only reasonable Muslims are ones that don't really observe the rules of the faith.

Sorry kid, you live in a country with a bunch of ignorant fucking people that won't believe anything unless its on Fox "News"-- look who they voted for for president TWICE.

Whereas those happy-go-lucky Muslims in Palestine that elected Hamas are fucking geniuses.

The Islamists want the whole world to be Muslim or else, and in the meantime they want George Bush, or another evangelical, to be President, because Al Gore is a jew. If seen them tell it to the BBC. Aljezeera, and Thomas Friedman. I'm inclined to take them at THEIR word, nor yours. It's called a clue, try one.


Was this supposed to be a joke? I don't get it. Al Gore is a Baptist...

"I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. But freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion, there is a better way." -- speech at a Salvation Army drug rehabilitation center in Atlanta, Georgia, May 1999

". . . we have often felt the presence of God and the power of prayer, so although we have grown up in the church, we are believers not by habit but by decision." -- Joined at the Heart: The Transformation of the American Family, 2002, p. 40

Whereas those happy-go-lucky Muslims in Palestine that elected Hamas are fucking geniuses.

Word.

"We are moderate muslims! Don't be islamophobic! Now let's elect terrorists!"

Was this supposed to be a joke? I don't get it. Al Gore is a Baptist...
Thomas L. Friedman went around the world asking muslims what they thought about world events, America and why. He does his best to cast they in the best and sympathetic light. At one point he went to an islamic girls school in Malaysia. One of the girls proceeds to talk about who she wants to win the Presidential election. She says George Bush because he's a Christian and, of course, because the guy who ultimately came in second was a jew. And she's proud of this fact. She knows it. She's worldly and reads news on the internet. Her goal: Eventually she'd like to study in America.

That's who Muslims outside of the Western democracies really are. Panderers, the pandered, and villians. Sure, the villains are the truly evil people. No one disputes that. But it's the pandered that are the facilitators, protectors, and future villians. I take them at their word. They're too ignorant to game their response and conceal their intent.

Thomas L. Friedman went around the world asking muslims what they thought about world events, America and why. He does his best to cast they in the best and sympathetic light. At one point he went to an islamic girls school in Malaysia. One of the girls proceeds to talk about who she wants to win the Presidential election. She says George Bush because he's a Christian and, of course, because the guy who ultimately came in second was a jew. And she's proud of this fact. She knows it. She's worldly and reads news on the internet. Her goal: Eventually she'd like to study in America.

That's who Muslims outside of the Western democracies really are. Panderers, the pandered, and villians. Sure, the villains are the truly evil people. No one disputes that. But it's the pandered that are the facilitators, protectors, and future villians. I take them at their word. They're too ignorant to game their response and conceal their intent.

So one ignorant girl represents an entire religion. Hey, thats great...

So one ignorant girl represents an entire religion. Hey, thats great...

You're bad at this. This is clearly what muslims children are being taught.

It's a lot like the Hitler Jugend.

You're bad at this. This is clearly what muslims children are being taught.

It's a lot like the Hitler Jugend.

And Godwin's Law is in effect!

:D :sniper:

And Godwin's Law is in effect!

:D :sniper:

Fuck Godwin's Law. I know what I'm talking about. My grandfather was in the Hitler Jugend.

My thoughts:

I recognise that the majority of Islam are not the rowdy mobs I see on TV threatening to kill westerners, and that it is a tiny minority actually doing the killing. I also recognise that, though I have never actually read it, the Koran probably contains no more violent, anti-peace stuff than my own holy book, the Bible.

My concern lies here: while the mobs I see on TV may not represent a majority, they are still a pretty damn big minority, and when they have such a huge reaction to an expression of what, to me anyway, is an inaleinable human right in freedom of the press, I get pretty damn worried. Something needs to be done, I just haven't the faintest idea what it is...

My thoughts:

I also recognise that, though I have never actually read it, the Koran probably contains no more violent, anti-peace stuff than my own holy book, the Bible.

..

I have studied a large amount of different religions and you are correct. They all have "violent, anti-peace stuff." But the base tenent of them all is "Thou Shalt NOT Kill." For those of you who claim a religion, live by that tenet and things would change a lot. Stop all your "holy" wars [this includes you christians] and let people lead their own lives. Stop pushing your beliefs down everyone's throat. If they come to you fine, let them delude themselves. But all the PR is crap. Remember freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. There are those of us who really don't care what individual beliefs are.

I have studied a large amount of different religions and you are correct. They all have "violent, anti-peace stuff." But the base tenent of them all is "Thou Shalt NOT Kill."

How can you, claiming to have studied a "large amount of different religions", stand up and say that, when Mohammed himself, Islam's founder, ordered people executed, laid sieges and lead and fought in battles?

The man was a warlord. There is nothing less peaceful. And this came through very loudly and very cleary in the Qu'ran, the hadiths and the laws he laid down. And no amount of pointing to obscure Bible verses in which an obscure guy in a chariot kills a Hittite or something can diminish the significance of that.

So one ignorant girl represents an entire religion. Hey, thats great...

No. A significant minority do.
And I'm not racist for those who care. Just very anti-islamist or whatever.

How can you, claiming to have studied a "large amount of different religions", stand up and say that, when Mohammed himself, Islam's founder, ordered people executed, laid sieges and lead and fought in battles?

The man was a warlord. There is nothing less peaceful. And this came through very loudly and very cleary in the Qu'ran, the hadiths and the laws he laid down. And no amount of pointing to obscure Bible verses in which an obscure guy in a chariot kills a Hittite or something can diminish the significance of that.

His grandson was killed in battle. Hey great. Y'know the Koran says don't kill but if our great prophet and his grandson do it, well why can't we? It dosn't matter that we're killing innocent people? It's just claiming our over-extremist views.
Hey, let's claim back the spanish moors while we're at it. Yeah, that'll please Mohammed.

Stone Bridges shouldn't have apologised.

No. A significant minority do.
And I'm not racist for those who care. Just very anti-islamist or whatever.

No. Thats exactly wrong. A significant minority do not represent a religion, because they are a minority.

His grandson was killed in battle. Hey great. Y'know the Koran says don't kill but if our great prophet and his grandson do it, well why can't we? It dosn't matter that we're killing innocent people? It's just claiming our over-extremist views.
Hey, let's claim back the spanish moors while we're at it. Yeah, that'll please Mohammed.

Stone Bridges shouldn't have apologised.

Even that part isn't true.

snip

She has the right to be outraged or not outraged at whatever she wants, and not be harassed for it. She is under no obligation to be mad at what "they" want her to, no matter who "they" is.

And there we have it--why no moderate Muslim is worth listening to. Blasphemy against a prophet. If you were a real Muslim you wouldn't say that, because you're not allowed to. Once again you have demonstrated that the only reasonable Muslims are ones that don't really observe the rules of the faith.

Many many Christains say the same thing, get off your high horse. Just because you break one tennent does not make you "not a real Muslim."

"We are moderate muslims! Don't be islamophobic! Now let's elect terrorists!"

"We are freedom loving Americans! We defend democracy! Now let's bring murdurous dictators to power in a bloody coup and kill thousands!"

How can you, claiming to have studied a "large amount of different religions", stand up and say that, when Mohammed himself, Islam's founder, ordered people executed, laid sieges and lead and fought in battles?

The man was a warlord. There is nothing less peaceful. And this came through very loudly and very cleary in the Qu'ran, the hadiths and the laws he laid down. And no amount of pointing to obscure Bible verses in which an obscure guy in a chariot kills a Hittite or something can diminish the significance of that.

Hmmm, how odd. I seem to remember there being quite a few violent parts in the bible. Entire cities being laid to waste and the population massacred and such. Hey! That must mean Christianity wants to take over the world because they have some violent verses and there are some extremists who hate everyone else!

Even that part isn't true.

I blame my RE teacher.
Does anyone know any decent extremist schools in derbyshire?

Why is it when the cartoon was published, extremists came out en masse, but when a hostage is held and murdered, we do not see the peace-loving muslims protesting en masse?

Whatever reason, is it really that surprising people stereotype muslims as extremists, rather than pro-peace? Should the muslims not come out and reaffirm their love for peace during such times, rather than staying quiet whilst hostages from countries across the globe are being murdered?

I can understand muslims being offended by stereotyping, but surely they could have done a bit more themselves to get rid of that image, by demonstrating they are against the hostage-taking; against the violence? Otherwise the world only sees the minority of extremists. Without seeing the majority, people cannot be blamed for overrepresenting the muslim community as extremists.

Maybe that's something a few of you could think about?

Why is it when the cartoon was published, extremists came out en masse, but when a hostage is held and murdered, we do not see the peace-loving muslims protesting en masse?

Whatever reason, is it really that surprising people stereotype muslims as extremists, rather than pro-peace? Should the muslims not come out and reaffirm their love for peace during such times, rather than staying quiet whilst hostages from countries across the globe are being murdered?

I can understand muslims being offended by stereotyping, but surely they could have done a bit more themselves to get rid of that image, by demonstrating they are against the hostage-taking; against the violence? Otherwise the world only sees the minority of extremists. Without seeing the majority, people cannot be blamed for overrepresenting the muslim community as extremists.

Maybe that's something a few of you could think about?

Because there is really no truly peaceful muslims? It's just a big parade? And that the extremists in their masses also paraded at a quiet protest to clear their name?

And deep inside some muslims, they feel pleased someones held captive?

Because there is really no truly peaceful muslims? It's just a big parade? And that the extremists in their masses also paraded at a quiet protest to clear their name?

And deep inside some muslims, they feel pleased someones held captive?

Could you be any more anti-Islamic? Could you spread a wider generalisation?

Only a minority of Muslims are extremists

Could you be any more anti-Islamic?

I haven't even started being anti-islamist. This is my normal view, push me a bit further and I could say some *descreptive word here* stuff.

That is an unnerving thought.

And they're right. Muslims are all a bunch of untrustworthy assholes. But, then, so are Jews, Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Agnostics, Pastafarians, Hindus, and everyone else with the higher brain capacity to think.

Damn right, damn those beings with their higher brain capacity.

Sorry kid, you live in a country with a bunch of ignorant fucking people that won't believe anything unless its on Fox "News"-- look who they voted for for president TWICE.

yeah shame on us americans. we've let a few messed up individuals lead us god knows where for god knows what. as for fox...their is an islamic equavalent Al Jazeera

Hmmm, how odd. I seem to remember there being quite a few violent parts in the bible. Entire cities being laid to waste and the population massacred and such. Hey! That must mean Christianity wants to take over the world because they have some violent verses and there are some extremists who hate everyone else!

Thing is, those violent Bible verses are in the Qu'ran too. The Qu'ran incorporates the Bible, and then dumps a lot of of even more violent crap on top of those obscure Old Testament passages. Furthermore, rather than just talking about events that happened, Islam actually lists jihad as a duty of all Muslims, and was founded by a warlord.

Now people can say what they like about Bible fairy tales of cities being destroyed by God and people being turned into salt (also in the Qu'ran), but that's not the same as Jesus ordering people executed and riding personally into battle and having his followers raid merchant caravans.

"We are freedom loving Americans! We defend democracy! Now let's bring murdurous dictators to power in a bloody coup and kill thousands!"

Debateable. And it's worth noting these dictators always seem to be Muslim. Americans aren't being given much to work with, are they?

yeah shame on us americans. we've let a few messed up individuals lead us god knows where for god knows what. as for fox...their is an islamic equavalent Al Jazeera

And the equivelant of Bush is Hamas. You know, those terrorist guys. Like to fire kalashnikovs in the air when people crash things into buildings and send fifteen year-olds to blow up in restaurants and stuff. Maybe you've heard of them?

Oh, and then there's that Iranian chap. Denounced the Holocaust in from of a massive, thousands-strong cheering crowd of, uh, "minority extremists". Said Israel should be wiped off the map. Maybe you've heard of him?

And then of course there's....

First of all, what the flying fuck have I done to get this done to me?
Nothing. It's just the majority of Muslims seem to paint everyone else one colour, so don't dish it if you can't take it.

I'm just a 15 year old half-Hispanic, half-Indian Muslim in the 10th grade, born and raised in California.
Unusual mix. We can't all choose what race we come from. Well, sometimes we can.

In General, in the streets, in school, and in the world, asshattery like this has been growing so goddamn fast because some fucking idiots decide to demand blood for a cartoon.
And you're not joining in the fun? Contradicts everyone saying violent muslims are minority. Maybe they meant peaceful muslims.

Well guess fucking what?
You're going to have a pointless rant at us because you can't handle your own medicine?

I'm not only a better person than you'll obviously ever become, but I'm NOT the equivelent to a retard running around blowing himself up and claiming to be a good Muslim!

Kids at school are coming to me and expecting to be an apologist for the people rioting over the "cartoons."
And you should. But you aren't because?

I blame every single idiotic fool to condemns Islam and who doesn't take 10 seconds out of their day to learn a little.
I blame every single muslim as long as they blame everybody else in a one size fits all category. Learn a little respect.

Jesus fucking Christ. Backs up my previous statement. Don't insult other religions if you don't want an out burst
.
Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone,[/QUOTE]
No you can't Except non-muxlims. But since you're a minority, you get more portection than the hardworking people.

and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.
Well take a leaf out of Keruvalia's book then.

(Yes I know I've already quoted this, but I thought I should pick at it some more)

Debateable. And it's worth noting these dictators always seem to be Muslim. Americans aren't being given much to work with, are they?

Noriega was Muslim? Pinochet was Muslim? Batista was Muslim?

Two seconds typing into google brought up this:-

Since 1945, the USA has been responsible either directly or indirectly of helping remove dozens of governments, many democratically elected, around the world. Sometimes the events are kept secret for years and only slowly come out. Other times, the events are the cause of demonstrations, anger and resentment at the time they occur.

Whenever, an event like this occurs there are two reasons to be considered.

* Reason 1: The reason given by the USA, its media and its friends around the world. Reasons like Communism, Terrorism, Human Rights, Freedom, Liberation, Weapons of Mass Destruction, etc.

* Reason 2: The actual reason. This is usually hidden from the general public and has to be looked for in quotes by under-reported officials or subsequent events on the ground. Often, the victims of the change of government know the real reasons better than the populations of the Western countries. Real reasons are many but usually include Business Interests, Access to Resources, Markets, Military Bases, Strategic Value, or Political Support.

In the list below only successful changes of government are listed. Many attempts have failed. Cuba is the best example of this.

Year Country Reason Given Actual Reason
1949 Syria Communism Elected government against USA
political interests and Pro-Palestinian.
1949 Greece Communism Elected government against USA political and economic interests.
1952 Cuba None Elected government against USA business interests.
1953 Iran None Elected government against USA oil interests.
1953 British Guyana None Access to sugar and bauxite.
1954 Guatemala Communism Elected government against USA business interests.
1955 South Vietnam Communism French backed leader replaced by USA backed leader.
1957 Haiti Haiti is near the USA Previous government against USA business interests.
1958 Laos None Pro-USA government wanted.
1959 Laos None Pro-USA government wanted.
1960 South Korea Communism Previous leader not strong enough for USA.
1960 Laos None Pro-USA government wanted.
1960 Ecuador Communism Previous government too independent in foreign policy.
1963 Dominican Republic Business Interests Elected government against USA business interests.
1963 South Vietnam None Previous leader's policies led to televised suicides.
1963 Honduras Communism Pro-USA government and access to
1963 Guatemala Communism Military government was about to allow elections.
1963 Ecuador None Elected government too independent.
1964 Brazil Communism Access to resources and cheap labour.
1964 Bolivia Communism Previous government too independent in foreign policy.
1965 Zaire None Access to cobalt, copper and diamonds.
1966 Ghana None Previous government too independent in foreign policy.
1967 Greece None Military bases.
1970 Cambodia None Previous king against USA political interests.
1970 Bolivia None Country took ownership of its oil and tin.
1972 El Salvador Communism Elected leader against USA business interests.
1973 Chile Communism Elected government against USA business interests.
1975 Australia None Elected government had unsuitable foreign policy.
1979 South Korea None Pro-USA government wanted.
1980 Liberia Democracy Pro-USA government wanted.
1982 Chad None Pro-USA government wanted.
1983 Grenada Democracy Pro-USA government wanted.
1987 Fiji Democracy Previous elected government supported nuclear-free Pacific.
2002 Venezuela None Disagreed with foreign policy of elected government.
2004 Haiti Fraudulent elections Disagreed with economic policy of elected government.

For once I agree with you, there is a real rise in racist behavor on these forums in the last month or two.

Islam is an unneccessary burden. It brings us pain, death, sorrow and anger and in return it provides one more family following the will fo a God that doesn't exist. And this forum isn't just filled with Pro-Islam people, but Neo-Islam people too. Read:

Today, 6:28 PM
Santa Barbara
"I don't have sympathy for "The West" because of 9/11 either. I mean, boo-hoo, our giant penis towers were dis-engorged! Where's my Shock-and-Awe Viagra?"

Those towers were filled with people from all other the world, and my family could have been up that tower if we hadn't rescheduled. Why do people find Islam a great culture? I though Religion was suppose to bring happiness. Is happiness another car bomb in Iraq? Is happiness another shotgun pressed against the head of a hostage? Is happiness the smell of burning embassies as Muslim protesters condemn people to death?

The Islamists want the whole world to be Muslim or else, and in the meantime they want George Bush, or another evangelical, to be President, because Al Gore is a jew. I've seen them tell it to the BBC. Aljezeera, and Thomas Friedman. I'm inclined to take them at THEIR word, nor yours. It's called a clue, try one.You hear a few fanatics spew on a couple of news programs and suddenly you know the intentions of the entire muslim world, including the sizable populations in Africa, Indonesia and all the other places that aren't the mideast?

Prothelizing is actually prohibited by Islamic law. Kind of puts a hole in the "Islamists want the whole world to be Muslim" thing.

Who needs a clue?

Thomas L. Friedman went around the world asking muslims what they thought about world events, America and why. He does his best to cast they in the best and sympathetic light. At one point he went to an islamic girls school in Malaysia. One of the girls proceeds to talk about who she wants to win the Presidential election. She says George Bush because he's a Christian and, of course, because the guy who ultimately came in second was a jew. And she's proud of this fact. She knows it. She's worldly and reads news on the internet. Her goal: Eventually she'd like to study in America.

That's who Muslims outside of the Western democracies really are. Panderers, the pandered, and villians. Sure, the villains are the truly evil people. No one disputes that. But it's the pandered that are the facilitators, protectors, and future villians. I take them at their word. They're too ignorant to game their response and conceal their intent.Man, you are a tool of the media. You haven't a clue do you?

Ever stop to think how many people Freidman interviewed before he selected this particular girl? If one of her classmates proclaimed her wish for peace in the world and a love of all mankind do you think they would have wasted film or given it air time? That certainly wouldn't have been sensational enough to entertain the masses, wouldn't have been the story they were searching for.

Here's a couple of clues since you seem to be missing one. There's always two sides to every story and the truth usually lies somewhere between them. Don't believe anything you see or read without question. And before you make a judgement about a person or group of people try and actually understand them and their beliefs.

Nothing. It's just the majority of Muslims seem to paint everyone else one colour, so don't dish it if you can't take it.
ever think to be a better person than them and not sink to their level? "These people suck because they do this. So I'm going to do it back." Grow up.

Unusual mix. We can't all choose what race we come from. Well, sometimes we can.
How does one choose their race?

And you're not joining in the fun? Contradicts everyone saying violent muslims are minority. Maybe they meant peaceful muslims.
Actually, Colodia supports us saying that muslims are peaceful in general.

You're going to have a pointless rant at us because you can't handle your own medicine?
Again, Colodia, to my knowledge, hasn't done shit to anyone.




And you should. But you aren't because?Why should he? He hasn't done anything. He doesn't need to apologise for the acts of others any more than anyone else.


I blame every single muslim as long as they blame everybody else in a one size fits all category. Learn a little respect.Ironic. he blames the people who are proving they are asshats. People who wont go out and educate themselves before they open their mouths. You are blaming people who identify as Muslim. Grow up and take your own advice.

Backs up my previous statement. Don't insult other religions if you don't want an out burst"Jesus fucking christ" is nowhere near calling for the deaths of all muslims, nor is it particularly against another religion as muslims still believe in Jesus as one of the five prophets. Additionally, when I hear christians not using that phrase, then I'll believe that it is offensive.

No you can't Except non-muxlims. But since you're a minority, you get more portection than the hardworking people.
Uh huh...first of all, he said that he couldn't flame people implying that he couldnt speak out against any one individual on NS for saying certain things. Second of all, yes, we all know that only while anglo saxon protestants are hard workers and deserve protection. All them darkies should just get the fuck out.:rolleyes: Grow up.

Well take a leaf out of Keruvalia's book then. take your own damn advice

(Yes I know I've already quoted this, but I thought I should pick at it some more)4th time I get to say it in one post. Grow. Up.

And the equivelant of Bush is Hamas. You know, those terrorist guys. Like to fire kalashnikovs in the air when people crash things into buildings and send fifteen year-olds to blow up in restaurants and stuff. Maybe you've heard of them?

Oh, and then there's that Iranian chap. Denounced the Holocaust in from of a massive, thousands-strong cheering crowd of, uh, "minority extremists". Said Israel should be wiped off the map. Maybe you've heard of him?

And then of course there's....

not sure where the hell you are going with this??

Islam is an unneccessary burden. It brings us pain, death, sorrow and anger and in return it provides one more family following the will fo a God that doesn't exist. And this forum isn't just filled with Pro-Islam people, but Neo-Islam people too. Read:

Today, 6:28 PM
Santa Barbara
"I don't have sympathy for "The West" because of 9/11 either. I mean, boo-hoo, our giant penis towers were dis-engorged! Where's my Shock-and-Awe Viagra?"

Those towers were filled with people from all other the world, and my family could have been up that tower if we hadn't rescheduled. Why do people find Islam a great culture? I though Religion was suppose to bring happiness. Is happiness another car bomb in Iraq? Is happiness another shotgun pressed against the head of a hostage? Is happiness the smell of burning embassies as Muslim protesters condemn people to death?

Why are people denying the truth? I'm not the only one convinced islam is not a religion of faith.

Lesson to be learnt above.

Why are people denying the truth? I'm not the only one convinced islam is not a religion of faith.

Lesson to be learnt above.The lesson is that ignorance is like grapes, it comes in bunches.

Everyones response seems to be that if you don't like islam, and/or don't support it, you're either a bigot, racist or xenophobic?

I doubt I need to grow up with those responses.

Everyones response seems to be that if you don't like islam, and/or don't support it, you're either a bigot, racist or xenophobic?

I doubt I need to grow up with those responses.
No...you can dislike it all you want. I think you are a bigot, racist, and xenophobic strictly based off of what you have said here so far.

You can hate islam for all I care. But you choose to hold it against the followers of islam as if that is the only aspect of who they are that matters, or, moreover, that it is the only part that exists.

I know many peaceful muslims who are firmly against the actions of extremists. But then it must be said extremist muslim communities in England are growing, many from peaceful converts.

Perhaps the religion is not to blame, as much as manipulative high-powered figures, endorsing terrorism whilst simultaneously not having the guts to set the example themselves.

This situation seems increasingly a manipulation of a large audience (religious sector) to serve the political interests / prejudices of a few in power. The Bible has endorsed violence, yet we do not fight, as our holy figures have not called / convinced us to do so.

Many Muslims use the Qu'ran as a guide for morals and a way of life, as Christians use the Bible, and Jews use the Torah. In many holy scriptures, there are tales, and endorsement, of violence, yet we do not suffer manipulative figures in high places hoping to capitalise on our faith, in order to serve their personal interests.

Everyones response seems to be that if you don't like islam, and/or don't support it, you're either a bigot, racist or xenophobic?

I doubt I need to grow up with those responses.

It's your generalising and stereotyping that people don't like.

It's your generalising and stereotyping that people don't like.

Indeed. No-one said you had to like Islam. Just stop generalising and spreading misinformation about it.

Indeed. No-one said you had to like Islam. Just stop generalising and spreading misinformation about it.

Okay. I will. Show me what generalisation and misinformation I've been spreading. I'll edit any posts I find that don't follow the holy rules of the major minority of anti-anti-islamists.

Okay. I will. Show me what generalisation and misinformation I've been spreading. I'll edit any posts I find that don't follow the holy rules of Skinny87.
Don't forget Kzord
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10467373&postcount=320
and Sarkhaan
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10467350&postcount=318
. It might appear a few people have your #.

anti-anti-islamists.

Better edit Straughn?

Better edit Straughn?
Are you appeasing me? Ooh! *tingles* :D

Are you appeasing me? Ooh! *tingles* :D

No. I;m appeasing the AAI.

Anti-
Anti-
Islamists.

Or trying to stop them from wetting the bed.

Perhaps the religion is not to blame, as much as manipulative high-powered figures, endorsing terrorism whilst simultaneously not having the guts to set the example themselves.

One of the above-mentioned figures founded the damn religion, man.

when Mohammed himself, Islam's founder, ordered people executed, laid sieges and lead and fought in battles?

And no amount of pointing to obscure Bible verses in which an obscure guy in a chariot kills a Hittite or something can diminish the significance of that.

Apparently you haven't read the same bible i have. Do you have the children's version perhaps? There are many examples of christian butchery in the real one. Perhaps you should find one.

Islam is an unneccessary burden. It brings us pain, death, sorrow and anger and in return it provides one more family following the will fo a God that doesn't exist.


And christianity isn't a burden? Let's cover up a few more priest playing with choir boys. Let's take the hard earned money of the people so that we can make fancy buildings to meet in. Let's push our own beliefs down the throats of others till they push back. Get real.

Sorry for just jumping in, but seriously...WTF?!

Give me one good reason why I didn't make the cut for the original post. For crying out loud, I even managed to encode a call to global genocide in my post "Smirk if you want, but here the elephant in the living room the Euros here would rather pretend doesn't exist". It was so well hidden even I couldn't find it until one of our helpful liberals dug it up for me! Now that's right-wing trickery and subterfuge the likes of which astound even myself!

No. I;m appeasing the AAI.

Anti-
Anti-
Islamists.

Or trying to stop them from wetting the bed.
Especially from across the room! :D

Apparently you haven't read the same bible i have. Do you have the children's version perhaps? There are many examples of christian butchery in the real one. Perhaps you should find one.


I'm guessing the bible you read isn't the same as mine ...I don't remember any Christian butchery...a little dissapproval, and (in Paul's case) quite a lot of bile, but no butchery...oh hang on, there's a bit of blood in revalation, but I wouldn't call it "many examples of christian butchery".

Old Testament (pre-Christian) butchery...well that's another story. Butchery oozes out of bits of it, but how that can be called Christian is beyond me.

Not to say that Christians haven't been butchers - often they've been among the worst, but not in the bible.

I think Anubis Sokar was joking... his post seems amazingly ridiculous. Funny, even.


But, yes, you have every right to get mad and smack all the ignorant anti-muslim people in the face.

I'm guessing the bible you read isn't the same as mine ...I don't remember any Christian butchery...a little dissapproval, and (in Paul's case) quite a lot of bile, but no butchery...oh hang on, there's a bit of blood in revalation, but I wouldn't call it "many examples of christian butchery".

Old Testament (pre-Christian) butchery...well that's another story. Butchery oozes out of bits of it, but how that can be called Christian is beyond me.

Not to say that Christians haven't been butchers - often they've been among the worst, but not in the bible.

Besides the Old Testament is more like background reading and fairy tales... even the Vatican admits that a lot of the OT is bull.

Better edit Straughn?
you still don't get it do you? In general (atleast me, and it would seem kzord, Skinny87, and a few others) people don't really give a fuck if you hate islam. Anyone can hate anything. I am against the fact that you hold islam against the people who follow it without even considering for a second that maybe, just maybe they aren't all terrorists. And that it could be possible that there is more to a person than just their religious stance.

As I said, I don't consider people who hate islam to be bigots, ignorant, xenophobic, or what have you because they hate islam. I think that many of the individuals are because they have done a nice job removing any doubt I had. You are one of these people, who has made it clear that at the very least you are bigoted.

Theorb is just about the only non dogmatic Christian I've ever seen. He actually listens to us.

The way I see it, if I don't listen and actually figure out how to properly address people's arguments, then everybody loses, I lose because I probably won't convince many people of Christianity, and everybody else loses because they won't gain eternal life. But you know, one weird thing I have noticed on this forum, I haven't seen many Christians that try to evangelise on it the way I am, it's a bit odd :/.

I see no one took my suggestion of adding "those paticular" In front of each "Muslim".


The way I see it, if I don't listen and actually figure out how to properly address people's arguments, then everybody loses, I lose because I probably won't convince many people of Christianity, and everybody else loses because they won't gain eternal life. But you know, one weird thing I have noticed on this forum, I haven't seen many Christians that try to evangelise on it the way I am, it's a bit odd :/.

Well, If you could ever base an arguement on ANYTHING other than the supposed absolute truth of your beliefs, I'd expect you'd get more ground...but that's just me....

You seem to be intent on finding common ground between us but again I must contend your assertion. I don't have an opinion on what the focus of a particular organized religion should be because I frankly don't see the need or justification for any organized religion. Discussion of any part of the bible with me must also be tempered with the knowledge that I consider it to be a well published piece of fiction with some historical basis. To consider it the word of "God" is to egotisticly assume not only that mankind can understand the intentions and thoughts of any supreme being or force, but that such a being (if it exists) actually considers humankind worth considering at all. It's the appex of arrogance that we should consider ourselves capable of a dialogue with whatever unifying force rules the universe.

It's just it looked like we agreed on something, I guess we didn't then :/. Anyway, we don't need to fully understand the intentions of anybody, even God, to know what God or anybody is telling us. For instance, I have an AP English teacher who, as far as I can remember, has not told us a single thing about what he personally believes on, well, anything of signifigance. I don't even think I really know the guy at all and he's been teaching us for the past year, and often times our class gets the same impression, he teaches us everything that other people say about Romanticism, Humanism, Rationalism, all that stuff, but only does it through quoting other people, I have no idea exactly what he personally thinks on just about anything. Yet, I still make good grades on the tests, so apparently I can understand what he's saying enough to come out of it at the end of the day with confidence that i've understood at least a good bit of what he's telling us. This is despite the fact I don't really know anything about my AP English teacher, i'd chalk it up to him probably being a good teacher. One would think God would be far more qualified than my English teacher to teach things. Furthermore, I see no reason why an omnipotent being must be bored with humans, just because we can fathom that such a being might be bored from the simplicity doesn't mean that He cannot see more into the subject, especially when He is still omnipotent. And you know, I don't want to seem like im beating a dead horse, but you seem to agree with the Bible once again, we are not capable of having a literal face-to-face conversation with God, it would indeed be arrogant to assume our finite beings could see something of infinite power plainly like a normal every day conversation, see Exodus 33:20. Of course, Moses did have that conversation with God in a personal manner, but he certainly couldn't literally view God's face at all, much less literally be able to debate with God on an equally omnipotent manner.

I don't assume to be "judge, jury, and executioner of what should and should not constitute how one gets to heaven". If you've been paying attention my arguements were strictly hypothetical, I'm not convinced that there even is an afterlife. But I do stand by my assertion that if there is, the method of attaining entrance you advocate is not the only way in. I recognize rules, basic human truths. I don't need religion to point out that which is inherent in man. Also since I don't trust religion or believe in it, I can't be duped by it or anyone acting in it's name.
Fair enough, I mis-understood you then I suppose. But you've got to understand, I didn't make this stuff up, im not the one who first advocated it, im just the messenger boy. If I was making up my own personally invented method of how to get to heaven, I don't think i'd deny that would be extremely foolish on my part to try to assert that it was compleatly true. The funny thing is, the rest of your post in a way is actually quite good, the Bible does indeed affirm that we all have a conscience which recognizes good and evil as, after all, one result of us being in this sin mess is that we know about good and evil. Furthermore, the Bible affirms in many instances of the existance of the conscience, such as 1 Corinthians 8:12, Romans 2:14-16, 1 Colossians 10:29, Hebrew 13:18, I don't doubt that you have rules, we all do. And i'd say you are right not to trust organized religion, since the organizers are people, and well, im sorry to historical revistionists out there, but some people have done some pretty hypocritical things in the name of Christianity by turning it into a people-organized religion, rather than focusing on Christ. Christ is not inherant to man, and technically speaking, by the terms of the new covenant with Christ, nobody actually literally has to go to church a single day of their lives to recieve salvation. Of course, it's probably a bad idea not to go on a regular basis, but there's no literal reason in terms of obtaining salvation that says you can't just be alone your entire life, read the Bible, believe in Christ, and be saved. Other people shouldn't determine your salvation, you can't give your will to Christ if you don't even control it in the first place.

Religion is a simple one. Whatever God is isn't. And it's not the kind of thing people are good at dealing with anyway. The more naive tend to think that the order and cadence of religion is devotion to the ideals of "God", but it's not, its just a coordinated sequence of ceremony that helps to reinforce the ideals, mores and directive of a bunch of humans who want to have an angle on answering people's questions about human suffering, emotional desparity and the nature of relatively ineffable things ... for which people mistakenly attribute trust and loyalty. Thus it becomes political leverage, and no better than that.

But I don't like politics, it's very mean at times, and everyone gets so angry at each other alot, how am I supposed to evangelize in that kind of an atmosphere if im using the standards of a political movement myself? Besides, it's true that many times religions look on the outside like a bunch of silly ceremonies and things which function to control society, But Christ didn't come with a message of "And thou shalt go out and control the masses, uniting the world under cermonies and social control methods", He came with a message of repentence, forgiveness, and belief in Him to recieve eternal salvation from sin. It's quite different :/.

But I don't like politics, it's very mean at times, and everyone gets so angry at each other alot, how am I supposed to evangelize in that kind of an atmosphere if im using the standards of a political movement myself? Besides, it's true that many times religions look on the outside like a bunch of silly ceremonies and things which function to control society, But Christ didn't come with a message of "And thou shalt go out and control the masses, uniting the world under cermonies and social control methods", He came with a message of repentence, forgiveness, and belief in Him to recieve eternal salvation from sin. It's quite different :/.
Agreed. I hate organised religion myself. I am more agnostic/Christian than anything else (agnostic so far as God's form is concerned. I also dismiss much of what the Bible says, especially the Old Testament. Focusing on Christ is more important in my view. So I guess I am pretty much a freelancer, even though I do sympathise with Catholicism the most.

The part you never get is that your beliefs about the bible and religions are a result of your own "rather untrustworthy" view of things, and completely based on your own personal opinions of what God or religion really is.

You constantly fall back on "the bible" but in the end, its only your own interpretation, beliefs and views about the bible, which you now admit are untrustworthy.

Quite the contrary, if it ain't in the Bible, I don't intend to preach it. I merely meant that I am not pefect, I do not see how this is such a horrible assertion, the Bible does not say that those who are born again will become perfect immedietly, so I don't see why I should assert that i'll get everything right when im evangelizing. Im going for a literal translation here, if God was willing to become human and sacrifice Himself for all of the world's sins and in the meantime spread a message of salvation for everyone to hear, i'd think God might of meant it to be meant the way God represented it, none of this "Weeeeeeell, everything's just a metaphor, you can go pray to whatever you want according to my personal, amazing, super-cool lazy-pants interpretation of the Bible which is totally dependent on my own views rather than Jesus's views" stuff, that's not right!

Oh, and in accordance with our discussion, was this short enough of an exaplanation for you? I mean, if I'm going too overboard with this to the point that you won't even listen, I can try and shorten it :/.

It's just it looked like we agreed on something, I guess we didn't then :/. Anyway, we don't need to fully understand the intentions of anybody, even God, to know what God or anybody is telling us. For instance, I have an AP English teacher who, as far as I can remember, has not told us a single thing about what he personally believes on, well, anything of signifigance. I don't even think I really know the guy at all and he's been teaching us for the past year, and often times our class gets the same impression, he teaches us everything that other people say about Romanticism, Humanism, Rationalism, all that stuff, but only does it through quoting other people, I have no idea exactly what he personally thinks on just about anything. Yet, I still make good grades on the tests, so apparently I can understand what he's saying enough to come out of it at the end of the day with confidence that i've understood at least a good bit of what he's telling us. This is despite the fact I don't really know anything about my AP English teacher, i'd chalk it up to him probably being a good teacher. One would think God would be far more qualified than my English teacher to teach things. Furthermore, I see no reason why an omnipotent being must be bored with humans, just because we can fathom that such a being might be bored from the simplicity doesn't mean that He cannot see more into the subject, especially when He is still omnipotent. And you know, I don't want to seem like im beating a dead horse, but you seem to agree with the Bible once again, we are not capable of having a literal face-to-face conversation with God, it would indeed be arrogant to assume our finite beings could see something of infinite power plainly like a normal every day conversation, see Exodus 33:20. Of course, Moses did have that conversation with God in a personal manner, but he certainly couldn't literally view God's face at all, much less literally be able to debate with God on an equally omnipotent manner.You still assign human qualities and values to a supreme being when you speak of him, all religions do. God didn't create Man, Man created God. And we arrogantly assigned him our values and egotistically gave him a undeserved concern for us and our petty affairs. My assertion goes beyond a 'boredom' with mankind. Boredom is a human emotion, as is compassion. It's ludicrous to assign human values and thought process to a supreme being. I'm fairly certain that at this point in our evolution humans are incapable of comprehending the true nature of any supreme force or unifying plan for the universe. If that day ever comes I'm also pretty sure that our true insignificance in that scheme will leave the major religions cowering in the corner, sucking their collective thumbs. I'm not saying that "god doesn't care", I'm saying caring is a human value and it's idiotic to assign human values to a supreme being. And of course almost every Religion does just that.

Fair enough, I mis-understood you then I suppose. But you've got to understand, I didn't make this stuff up, im not the one who first advocated it, im just the messenger boy. If I was making up my own personally invented method of how to get to heaven, I don't think i'd deny that would be extremely foolish on my part to try to assert that it was compleatly true. The funny thing is, the rest of your post in a way is actually quite good, the Bible does indeed affirm that we all have a conscience which recognizes good and evil as, after all, one result of us being in this sin mess is that we know about good and evil. Furthermore, the Bible affirms in many instances of the existance of the conscience, such as 1 Corinthians 8:12, Romans 2:14-16, 1 Colossians 10:29, Hebrew 13:18, I don't doubt that you have rules, we all do. And i'd say you are right not to trust organized religion, since the organizers are people, and well, im sorry to historical revistionists out there, but some people have done some pretty hypocritical things in the name of Christianity by turning it into a people-organized religion, rather than focusing on Christ. Christ is not inherant to man, and technically speaking, by the terms of the new covenant with Christ, nobody actually literally has to go to church a single day of their lives to recieve salvation. Of course, it's probably a bad idea not to go on a regular basis, but there's no literal reason in terms of obtaining salvation that says you can't just be alone your entire life, read the Bible, believe in Christ, and be saved. Other people shouldn't determine your salvation, you can't give your will to Christ if you don't even control it in the first place.Was that a freudian slip? Of course you didn't make this stuff up, but you may be subconsciously aware that someone, somewhere did just that. Maybe they had the best of intentions, setting down rules for a emerging society to help it prosper, but in all probability a good portion of the dogma of your faith was just that, made up. Quoting passages of the bible as proof is silly to those of us who see the bible for what it is, a collection of stories with no collaborating evidence. I don't discount that there are words of wisdom to be found within it's covers, but I refuse to think of it as an infalible source of reference.

And it's worth noting these dictators always seem to be Muslim.

Accully, I was thinking of South American dictators, none of which (to my knowledge) are Muslim.

Nothing. It's just the majority of Muslims seem to paint everyone else one colour, so don't dish it if you can't take it

No they don't. Besides, that is besides the point. The point is, the OP never made broad generalizations, and thus does not deserve to be the victim if them.


You're going to have a pointless rant at us because you can't handle your own medicine?

What medicine would that be? She never did shit to anybody, she is being attacked unwarrentedly.


And you should. But you aren't because?

She didn't do those things, she has NO obligation to apologize. That's why.



Backs up my previous statement. Don't insult other religions if you don't want an out burst

Christains say that all the time, and you know damn well it wasn't ment to be offencive or anti-Christain.




What many of you people don't seem to get is that NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE THE SAME PERSON! Therefor, one does not have to apologize for, and sure as hell shouldn't be help accountable for, blamed for, or judged based apon, the actions of another.

Quite the contrary, if it ain't in the Bible, I don't intend to preach it. I merely meant that I am not pefect, I do not see how this is such a horrible assertion, the Bible does not say that those who are born again will become perfect immedietly, so I don't see why I should assert that i'll get everything right when im evangelizing. Im going for a literal translation here, if God was willing to become human and sacrifice Himself for all of the world's sins and in the meantime spread a message of salvation for everyone to hear, i'd think God might of meant it to be meant the way God represented it, none of this "Weeeeeeell, everything's just a metaphor, you can go pray to whatever you want according to my personal, amazing, super-cool lazy-pants interpretation of the Bible which is totally dependent on my own views rather than Jesus's views" stuff, that's not right!

Oh, and in accordance with our discussion, was this short enough of an exaplanation for you? I mean, if I'm going too overboard with this to the point that you won't even listen, I can try and shorten it :/.

Sigh...all that and you still don't get that your interpretation on ANYTHING, including Jesus, the Bible, and all the other unfounded pseudoaxioms that you worship, are still just your own "untrustworthy" viewpoints. (Untrustworthy as you described your own viewpoints).

It doesn't matter how short you make your "explanations" because they don't address the point.

Newsflash: The way you interpret it is not the defining standard of the way "God represented it", and neither is your "Bible" filtered through the viewpoints of many authors, translators, and interpreters.

I know you need to feel that God ratifies your interpretation because your arguments are empty without imaginary, supernatural ratification. But its all just your own viewpoint about God, nothing more. Same for me or anybody else, and same for you.

Theorb are we still missing the point that people where involved in the creation of the Bible?

If you want to put God in the Bible the Bible needs to amazing things like predict the future, have hidden codes, or have scientific answers beyond what we know now. No ones ever demonstrated the existense of a divine hand in the creation of the Bible and I doubt any one will.

But I don't like politics, it's very mean at times, and everyone gets so angry at each other alot, how am I supposed to evangelize in that kind of an atmosphere if im using the standards of a political movement myself? Besides, it's true that many times religions look on the outside like a bunch of silly ceremonies and things which function to control society, But Christ didn't come with a message of "And thou shalt go out and control the masses, uniting the world under cermonies and social control methods", He came with a message of repentence, forgiveness, and belief in Him to recieve eternal salvation from sin. It's quite different :/.
(bolded) Agreed. That was at least one of his dickhead followers (with some establishment help). Jesus himself seemed like a pretty cool dude.
It requires the steps of seperation that not many people choose on their pursuit to understand that whole subject better. Not that i mean fellowship is bad, au contraire ... but indeed it's a long slide since, because the independent line of faith is using a lot of material that is more or less convoluted by groups of people who used/changed its resonance for political means, through religion.

Apparently you haven't read the same bible i have. Do you have the children's version perhaps? There are many examples of christian butchery in the real one.

Again, I must ask: how does this diminish the significance of Islamic butchery.

And again, and rather frustrated, I point out that the Qu'ran largely incorporates the Bible. If the "Christian butchery" (although 99% of the stuff is pre-Christ) is in the Bible, it is also in the Qu'ran. It's icing on the cake of Mohammedan savagery.

What do you know ...

348 posts and the people who hate me still hate me and the people who don't still don't.

And the world keeps on turnin'.

Sorry, Colodia. I feel your anger. I feel it every day. I can't tell you the number of times I've wanted to actually meet a suicide bomber just so I can give him the *real* target. But, alas, that would be placing myself as no better than they.

However, every one of those people who hate me just for the way I pray actually strengthens my faith. Every word they say brings me closer to Allah. It makes me a stronger Muslim. Of course, I have an advantage in growing up Jewish and being exposed to a near constant onslaught of antisemitism. Thickens up the skin.

So, to the haters: Keep it up. You're actually making us stronger. Allowing us to show that we're above you. You're giving us the opportunity for true Dawah, which is showing people by our deeds and words that Islam is not what you make it to be. Every time I stand up to you with conviction and patience and without vulgarity and anger, I show someone somewhere that Islam is "maybe not so bad". Enough of seeing that may even prompt some to head down to that Mosque they've been avoiding. Keep hating me. It helps me and it helps Islam.

Carry on.

She has the right to be outraged or not outraged at whatever she wants, and not be harassed for it. She is under no obligation to be mad at what "they" want her to, no matter who "they" is.
Please point to where she, or anyone, has the right to not be offended, or emotionally inconvienced by other people in our laws or customs? Oh, no where? Thanks.

Sorry, Colodia. I feel your anger. I feel it every day. I can't tell you the number of times I've wanted to actually meet a suicide bomber just so I can give him the *real* target.

Not to show him the error of his ways and peddle your spiel about Islam being peaceful? How...disturbing.

Not to show him the error of his ways and peddle your spiel about Islam being peaceful? How...disturbing.

I would expect you to take that out of context. How deliciously amusing.

Perhaps if you had a single drop of human compassion ....

Well ... never mind. You don't. I pity you.

You hear a few fanatics spew on a couple of news programs and suddenly you know the intentions of the entire muslim world, including the sizable populations in Africa, Indonesia and all the other places that aren't the mideast?

Prothelizing is actually prohibited by Islamic law. Kind of puts a hole in the "Islamists want the whole world to be Muslim" thing.

Who needs a clue?
You still need a clue. The Muslim girl was I mentioned was from Indonesia, the most populous muslim country. And she's not a fanatic, nor is Al-jezeera, they're moderates. That's part of the problem. Between their riots, electing Hamas, the content of their media, and investigative reporting slanted to paint them sympatheticly, yes, one, anyone, can get a sense of the whole of the muslim world.

If you think that it's impossible to form a very complete and accurate idea of some population when a great deal of disparate data sources all agree, over many different samples, I don't know what to say you. It's like you believe in magic. That there is great conspiracy to cast islam in the worst light possible and that the individual muslims themselves are in on it. Yet somehow, magically, it's a conspiracy run by an evil cabal.

You want to see what the islamists want, watch the new Frontline on the insurgency in Iraq. Over and over again, they say, unashamed, even proud, that they want one world under Islam and sharia law. That is what they want. Because if they die fighting for that, they get to go to pedophile heaven, what their orphaned children do isn't their problem.

Unlike you, I'm basing my conclusions on something. You've just got wishful thinking and you're married to it. Friedman selected that girl because of the contrast. She was a sympathetic "character" wanting a piece of the American dream for herself (a testament ot the power of our myth) but intellectually hobbled by an insulated life of poverty and ignorance. A horror compounded by the fact that (particularly as a young woman) she was comparitively privileged. She was hopeful, and moderate, but afraid of jews, and all too keen to embrace American evangelism. Friedman and his editor *are* careful with their choices. Nearly, anything he does is built on his unwavering belief "That we're all just peoples." They look to contrast the inhumanity of the circumstances with the humanity of all involved, and hope that understanding will do the rest.

Well it can't work if all the understanding is one sided. In the end, if you can't get the man with the 'or else' ultimatum to agree to something more reasonable, then he just needs to be killed. Really, that's what the Islamists want anyway, more than they want to see their children grow up and have a better life.

Well ... never mind. You don't. I pity you.

I've got plenty compassion, thank you. And don't worry about me--the feeling is mutual.

Prothelizing is actually prohibited by Islamic law. Kind of puts a hole in the "Islamists want the whole world to be Muslim" thing.

Who needs a clue?

You.

Dawa (proselytization) is a duty. More info here http://www.dawanet.com/

Organizations like tablighi jammat are actively involved in this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablighi_Jamaat
Aims
..
Inviting to God - Spending ones time and money in the "Path of God", calling people towards God, as Muhammad (PBUH) was the last messenger of God.

Proselytization is not the problem. If people are attracted to Islam and find something there that their current belief system is not offering, who am I to whine about it? What gets my goat is the hypocrisy of countries like Saud etc which funds dawa in non-muslim countries while prohibits even the freedom to practice other religions (forget about proselytizing there).

The prevention and prohibitions of proselytization by other religion in muslim countries and punishment for apostacy (irtidad) while actively funding proselytizing in other countries is hypocrisy.

You still assign human qualities and values to a supreme being when you speak of him, all religions do. God didn't create Man, Man created God. And we arrogantly assigned him our values and egotistically gave him a undeserved concern for us and our petty affairs. My assertion goes beyond a 'boredom' with mankind. Boredom is a human emotion, as is compassion. It's ludicrous to assign human values and thought process to a supreme being. I'm fairly certain that at this point in our evolution humans are incapable of comprehending the true nature of any supreme force or unifying plan for the universe. If that day ever comes I'm also pretty sure that our true insignificance in that scheme will leave the major religions cowering in the corner, sucking their collective thumbs. I'm not saying that "god doesn't care", I'm saying caring is a human value and it's idiotic to assign human values to a supreme being. And of course almost every Religion does just that.

Who ever said I was giving God values equivalent to our own? Just because their in the same class as our values doesn't make them the same, especially when you start dealing with infiniti, then things get ugly conceptual-wise for us. Which, coincidentally, is why we can't actually assign absolute values for God's thoughts, we can say their infinite like the Bible says, but we can't actually define infinite on our own. And because of this, we aren't, say, arbitrarily giving God characteristics we understand. And if some of our values are reflected on an infinitly higher level in God, that doesn't have to mean that we're all horrible little idolterers who deserve to be ground to dust by an uncaring, distant God, because that's also taking a side on what God's emotions are like, just in a far more negative fashion. A being of caring is one thing, a being of "infinite" caring is most definantly another, to the point where putting them in the same class on a comparative scale is irrelevant anyway, as we aren't able to really comphrehend it more whether we relate God's character to our values or not. Just because the Bible says that God is some things and that God did a few things and will continue to do more things in accordance with His infinitly good/just/loving/knowing/powerful nature, doesn't mean that God has exibited to us in plain view every single thing He is capable of displaying through His nature. Quite the contrary i'd think. If you hypothetically put an Aztec in front of a nuclear power plant, had a plug there coming out from it, and plugged in a light bulb and showed it to him, would that Aztec need to know how the bulb is made, what that plug is giving it, or how that big old nuclear powerplant with the green ooze coming out works in order to say, with confidence, that the light bulb is brightly lit? The Aztec in such a situation wouldn't need to build the powerplant, construct the plug, or create an adequate drainage system for the nuclear waste to see the light from the light bulb. Likewise, we do not need to fully understand God and how He works in order to say that God is infinitly just, wise, good, and so on and so forth, especially if said omnipotent being gave us finite understanding of how those concepts can be expressed in the first place. I don't see the arrogance here.

Was that a freudian slip? Of course you didn't make this stuff up, but you may be subconsciously aware that someone, somewhere did just that. Maybe they had the best of intentions, setting down rules for a emerging society to help it prosper, but in all probability a good portion of the dogma of your faith was just that, made up. Quoting passages of the bible as proof is silly to those of us who see the bible for what it is, a collection of stories with no collaborating evidence. I don't discount that there are words of wisdom to be found within it's covers, but I refuse to think of it as an infalible source of reference.
Don't know what a freudian slip is myself, (If i've done it, i'd like to know what is it, it can't hurt my debate skills to make what im saying more clear. ) but the Bible isn't just a convienent little guide for proper etiquette, it gives us the method for eternal salvation. Besides, if I don't quote the Bible, then how am I supposed to back up what im saying from a Christian perspective?

Don't know what a freudian slip is myself

A Freudian Slip is a womans undergarment that accidentally reveals more of herself than she wants to.

Sigh...all that and you still don't get that your interpretation on ANYTHING, including Jesus, the Bible, and all the other unfounded pseudoaxioms that you worship, are still just your own "untrustworthy" viewpoints. (Untrustworthy as you described your own viewpoints).

It doesn't matter how short you make your "explanations" because they don't address the point.

Newsflash: The way you interpret it is not the defining standard of the way "God represented it", and neither is your "Bible" filtered through the viewpoints of many authors, translators, and interpreters.

I know you need to feel that God ratifies your interpretation because your arguments are empty without imaginary, supernatural ratification. But its all just your own viewpoint about God, nothing more. Same for me or anybody else, and same for you.

I see no reason why I can't interpret the Bible the way it was literally written as long as I keep my personal opinions to myself. Why would anybody bother to write anything if they couldn't even get their ideas across in the manner the author meant them to? In the book of revelation, an angel came down and dictated to St. John what to write, and at the end, the book comments on how anybody who removes or adds words to the book will recieve every last curse on them that the book ever mentions, one would think God would of said things to John that were capable of being written down literally, otherwise, that means every single person in the world gets an unspeakable amount of pain inflicted upon them, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, I don't care and neither would God, it wouldn't matter. My viewpoints are only not compleatly trustworthy when I start inserting my own personal rhetoric into things, but when it's based on the literal meaning of the Bible, it's no longer my definition of anything. I'd also hardly call the Bible filtered, 99.9 percent textual purity or some such number when compared to the oldest manuscripts seems like pretty limited filtering.

Theorb are we still missing the point that people where involved in the creation of the Bible?

If you want to put God in the Bible the Bible needs to amazing things like predict the future, have hidden codes, or have scientific answers beyond what we know now. No ones ever demonstrated the existense of a divine hand in the creation of the Bible and I doubt any one will.

Hasn't some Christian by now come across this on this forum and inserted the list of a couple hundred fulfilled prophecies in the Bible by now? I'd think with all the debate that goes on here somebody would of tried it already, is that all you'd need for an adequate demonstration of divine influence on the Bible? Because you know, I can go get it, but if I take the time to explain everything, I get the feeling everybody will come along with "Well how are you so smart to know if the Bible was written before those events?", "Pfft, the hundreds of Dead Sea Scrolls were edited by the sheep farmer guy who found them", and "Aha, if I take all those prophecies out of context, they don't come true anymore!" type arguments, and those get out of control fast, and don't really help evangelize from what i've seen.

I see no reason why I can't interpret the Bible the way it was literally written as long as I keep my personal opinions to myself.

Its impossible to "interpret" anything without bringing your personal views into play.

Just because you've abdicated your capacity for diligent skeptical analysis of what you read in the bible doesn't mean everybody else has to. I know it makes it nice and easy for you to use the bible as a conceptual crutch, but its no more valid than the Koran, Dianetics, The Book of Secrets, or anything else.

You're a pseudospiritual telemarketer, Theorb. You just repeat the same things over and over, like a living ad nauseum fallacy. And I admit, there are people, like you, who will give there lives over to that because its easy.

You're just reading from the same script to as many people as you can, just like a telemarketer...

...First of all, what the flying fuck have I done to get this done to me?

I'm just a 15 year old half-Hispanic, half-Indian Muslim in the 10th grade, born and raised in California.

In General, in the streets, in school, and in the world, asshattery like this has been growing so goddamn fast because some fucking idiots decide to demand blood for a cartoon.

Well guess fucking what?

I'm not only a better person than you'll obviously ever become, but I'm NOT the equivelent to a retard running around blowing himself up and claiming to be a good Muslim!

Kids at school are coming to me and expecting to be an apologist for the people rioting over the "cartoons." I blame every single idiotic fool to condemns Islam and who doesn't take 10 seconds out of their day to learn a little.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.You are not justified. "First of all," nothing was done to you. You are a self-centered, snot-nosed, typical californian teenager. Get over yourself and take a look around. Those people who are condemning your religion may not be correct, but they are not pulling their opinions out of thin air. They are reacting to the "fruits" of islam that they see growing all around the world. As soon as islam, all (or at least the majority) of islam, learns to truly embrace peace, they will be welcomed as an equal by the civilized world.

Please point to where she, or anyone, has the right to not be offended, or emotionally inconvienced by other people in our laws or customs? Oh, no where? Thanks.

Are you refering to the "not be harrassed for it" part? In which case, there are laws against harrassment. Harassment is a crime.

What do you know ...

348 posts and the people who hate me still hate me and the people who don't still don't.

And the world keeps on turnin'.

Sorry, Colodia. I feel your anger. I feel it every day. I can't tell you the number of times I've wanted to actually meet a suicide bomber just so I can give him the *real* target. But, alas, that would be placing myself as no better than they.

However, every one of those people who hate me just for the way I pray actually strengthens my faith. Every word they say brings me closer to Allah. It makes me a stronger Muslim. Of course, I have an advantage in growing up Jewish and being exposed to a near constant onslaught of antisemitism. Thickens up the skin.

So, to the haters: Keep it up. You're actually making us stronger. Allowing us to show that we're above you. You're giving us the opportunity for true Dawah, which is showing people by our deeds and words that Islam is not what you make it to be. Every time I stand up to you with conviction and patience and without vulgarity and anger, I show someone somewhere that Islam is "maybe not so bad". Enough of seeing that may even prompt some to head down to that Mosque they've been avoiding. Keep hating me. It helps me and it helps Islam.

Carry on.

and this is why I want to go out and get drunk with you.


I say everyone should go to a mosque once. I had no idea what was going on, but had a great time. And this was at the height of palestinian/isralie fighting, in a mosque that is mostly palestinians. Never, and I mean never, have I felt more welcomed, regardless of them knowing I was a jew. I went during Ramadan, so they invited me back and said they'd "teach the jew what a real celebration is"...that still makes me laugh.

Who ever said I was giving God values equivalent to our own? Just because their in the same class as our values doesn't make them the same, especially when you start dealing with infiniti, then things get ugly conceptual-wise for us. Which, coincidentally, is why we can't actually assign absolute values for God's thoughts, we can say their infinite like the Bible says, but we can't actually define infinite on our own. And because of this, we aren't, say, arbitrarily giving God characteristics we understand. And if some of our values are reflected on an infinitly higher level in God, that doesn't have to mean that we're all horrible little idolterers who deserve to be ground to dust by an uncaring, distant God, because that's also taking a side on what God's emotions are like, just in a far more negative fashion. A being of caring is one thing, a being of "infinite" caring is most definantly another, to the point where putting them in the same class on a comparative scale is irrelevant anyway, as we aren't able to really comphrehend it more whether we relate God's character to our values or not. Just because the Bible says that God is some things and that God did a few things and will continue to do more things in accordance with His infinitly good/just/loving/knowing/powerful nature, doesn't mean that God has exibited to us in plain view every single thing He is capable of displaying through His nature. Quite the contrary i'd think. If you hypothetically put an Aztec in front of a nuclear power plant, had a plug there coming out from it, and plugged in a light bulb and showed it to him, would that Aztec need to know how the bulb is made, what that plug is giving it, or how that big old nuclear powerplant with the green ooze coming out works in order to say, with confidence, that the light bulb is brightly lit? The Aztec in such a situation wouldn't need to build the powerplant, construct the plug, or create an adequate drainage system for the nuclear waste to see the light from the light bulb. Likewise, we do not need to fully understand God and how He works in order to say that God is infinitly just, wise, good, and so on and so forth, especially if said omnipotent being gave us finite understanding of how those concepts can be expressed in the first place. I don't see the arrogance here.You're still incapable of thinking outside the box. You still think of a supreme being as having a human thought process. If you don't fully understand (or really, don't understand at all) God it is illogical to say that God is infinitly just, wise, good, and so on. There isn't even justification to say that caring, wisdom, good and evil are concepts that apply to a supreme being. You still insist on thinking of a supreme being in human terms, that's the arrogance that I speak of. Mankind elevates itself by equating himself with a supreme diety. It's one of the falacies of organized religion that have driven me to seek my own path.

Don't know what a freudian slip is myself, (If i've done it, i'd like to know what is it, it can't hurt my debate skills to make what im saying more clear. ) but the Bible isn't just a convienent little guide for proper etiquette, it gives us the method for eternal salvation. Besides, if I don't quote the Bible, then how am I supposed to back up what im saying from a Christian perspective?
You're still stuck on the eternal salvation.:rolleyes: I'm not asking for you to back up what you say from a christian perspective. I'm asking you to back it up without the christian perspective.

Unfortunately you don't seem able to comprehend outside the confines of your 'faith'. It's common, I've grown used ot it. What I propose shakes the foundations of all religions. It leaves all the reasons people have the insulating security of religion staring them square in the face. It makes them uncomfortable and most choose not to understand.

Are you refering to the "not be harrassed for it" part? In which case, there are laws against harrassment. Harassment is a crime.
Colloquial harassment and criminal harassment are very different things. Let's not embarrass ourselves by pretending they are the same. There is no freedom from annoyance.

Harassment the crime is a crime. People being annoying is a part of life. Put on the big boy pants, get over it, and if necessary cry into your pillow at night.

And here's the problem with many arguments against infinite, well, anything, we cannot get to a point as limited beings where we can apply infinite justice, because we personally are not capable of applying it. You can't, say, compare it to justice that we know and say that because we are super good judges, that nothing can judge better than us, mankind's standards simply do not go up to that level, and aren't so highly prized that they must over-ride any attempts to agree with, say, a being of infinite justice. And to compare with this situation metaphorically, we did not need to know in the past exactly how the sun operated to know that it generates heat, and technically speaking, we don't need to know now in order for it to generate heat, it continues to generate heat regardless of how much we know about it. (Or think we know) The point is, our standards of justice cannot actually become infinitly just, it's God's standard that matters, because only He is capable of applying it, yet we do not need to understand it compleatly to know that God is infinitly just. You raise a good point that we can't really see infinite justice as just first-hand, because we cannot literally comphrehend the badness of things on an infinite level, but because God is infinitly good, He must apply both infinite love and infinite justice, there can be no sacrifices of one for the other. Some things that we might think of as infinitly loving could easily be horribly evil in God's eyes, because God looks at everything with infinite standards in mind. If God had left these high standards alone and let everyone get sent to Hell, you'd have a great point, why would He make a standard of infinite justice if He is infinitly loving yet would have to send people to Hell anyway? That's what the Gospel is about. Without the Gospel, and God clearly showing that He is infinitly loving, this all would be extremely suspect. And yet, Jesus did come, and exibited God's infinite love by paying the infinitly large price for our sins, for all who will accept it by believing in Him. Therefore, both the infinite justice of God and the infinite love of God have been exibited, I see no problem here.


You don't seem to understand what I am saying. You equate the level of justice with the level of standards; i.e. infinitely just means infinitely high standards. This is a rediculous assessment of justice; justice isn't about how strict one is with laws and punishments, but rather whether punishments fit a crime. And if a person who lives a "good" life always helping others and harming no one is condemned to eternal torment; the punishment clearly does not fit the crime. If you are like most Christians you believe that God determined what is good and evil (if you disagree, I can readily shift my argument), why did he create a system of morality that no human can possibly adhere to? Jesus's sacrifice was hardly the ultimate one since he merely experienced the pain of death (he died painfully but there are many people who died in worse in pain) only to be ressurected as he knew he would be. This suffering is nothing compared to that to which God has condemned the most of humanity to. And how is there any justice in Christ's sacrifice? How does the blood of an innocent redeem the guilty?

and this is why I want to go out and get drunk with you.


I say everyone should go to a mosque once. I had no idea what was going on, but had a great time. And this was at the height of palestinian/isralie fighting, in a mosque that is mostly palestinians. Never, and I mean never, have I felt more welcomed, regardless of them knowing I was a jew. I went during Ramadan, so they invited me back and said they'd "teach the jew what a real celebration is"...that still makes me laugh.
I went to a Mosque once, it was fun....but afterwards they wanted me to deliver a suitcase to the airport.... ;-)

No seriously, I have a lot of muslim friends, I read the Koran, by the way if anyone has one by Ali Yousef...or is it Yousef Ali....feck! I would love to obtain it, my copy I am told is not a good interpretation.

This isnt a serious subject, you just have to laugh, it is just straight up bigotry. Which is just deliberately self imposed ignorance.

Usually it is the Christians getting slammed for something, now it is Muslims, give it a minute and the Hindus will feck something up---its all good.

Colodia, your half mexican half Muslim Indian--the guys I know are Saudis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Lebanese, Yemenese, Syrian, Jordanian, try living in America and be a full blooded arab Muslim.

I know Chaldeans who loose their minds because they get people jumping down their throats about Islam and their fecking Catholic!!

I know people named 'Bin Laden' you write that on a job application and see how far that gets you.

I know a gentlemen who had to change the name of his store because it was called Osamaa's---ouch!


The world is what it is, you have my sympathy for a tic....but now you've seen it.
So buy a helmut, and deal with it.
Cowboy up kid.

I I know people named 'Bin Laden' you write that on a job application and see how far that gets you.

I know a gentlemen who had to change the name of his store because it was called Osamaa's---ouch!


Are you saying I shouldn't open a "Richard Ramirez Family Therapy and On-site Gynecology" franchise?

I still think my "John Wayne Gacy Teen Bootcamp" will take off any day now...

What do you know ...

348 posts and the people who hate me still hate me and the people who don't still don't.

And the world keeps on turnin'.

Sorry, Colodia. I feel your anger. I feel it every day. I can't tell you the number of times I've wanted to actually meet a suicide bomber just so I can give him the *real* target. But, alas, that would be placing myself as no better than they.

However, every one of those people who hate me just for the way I pray actually strengthens my faith. Every word they say brings me closer to Allah. It makes me a stronger Muslim. Of course, I have an advantage in growing up Jewish and being exposed to a near constant onslaught of antisemitism. Thickens up the skin.

So, to the haters: Keep it up. You're actually making us stronger. Allowing us to show that we're above you. You're giving us the opportunity for true Dawah, which is showing people by our deeds and words that Islam is not what you make it to be. Every time I stand up to you with conviction and patience and without vulgarity and anger, I show someone somewhere that Islam is "maybe not so bad". Enough of seeing that may even prompt some to head down to that Mosque they've been avoiding. Keep hating me. It helps me and it helps Islam.

Carry on.

I love you man...I love you:D

I love you man...I love you:D
He doesn't say those words lightly ... believe me, it's always a chore for him to tell me without a slap and rifling through my change pocket on Sunday morning.

He doesn't say those words lightly ... believe me, it's always a chore for him to tell me without a slap and rifling through my change pocket on Sunday morning.

Well I would rifle through your wallet but your wife keeps everything but the change in your household.

Well I would rifle through your wallet but your wife keeps everything but the change in your household.
Ha! You should've looked harder! I had everything converted to bronze in anticipation of the next nuclear war!
Muhahahaha!

Are you saying I shouldn't open a "Richard Ramirez Family Therapy and On-site Gynecology" franchise?

I still think my "John Wayne Gacy Teen Bootcamp" will take off any day now...
Ramirez was the Night Stalker----Albert Fish pediatrics(Is that chewing gum?)--that is funny.

John Wayne Gacy Day Care(Clowns are scary).

FOr the Record I really did attend Elizabeth Borden pre-school.

Ramirez was the Night Stalker----Albert Fish pediatrics(Is that chewing gum?)--that is funny.

John Wayne Gacy Day Care(Clowns are scary).

FOr the Record I really did attend Elizabeth Borden pre-school.

Heehee...Theodore Bundy School of Law at CU Boulder...