NationStates Jolt Archive

Both blame Jews for their problems: Check
Both wish to eliminate Jews: Check
Both denied the holocaust was happening/happened: Check
Both deny rights to anyone not of their race/religion: Check
Both have centralized authority figures: Check
Both use hate and fear to further goals: Check

Did I miss any?

Islam causes problems wherever it exists.
...
The religion is just really dysfunctional. They trample hundreds of eachother to death to participate in a ritual where they stone a devil that isn't even really there.

I hate when people say "They're not arab, they're Persian!" or "They're not arab, they're turkish!" Enough with ancient technicalities. Same skin colour, same race-thingy. End of story.

I'd personally think figuring out a way to evangelize to them without getting everyone killed would work a whole lot better than fighting, what, a couple billion people? When you've got those kind of numbers in a war, that destroys a humungous chunk of the world's population, even when it's over, you'll of dealt more damage than every terrorist attack that's ever happened just about. And what does that third option mean, "Melkor"?


A mass genocide of muslims... would be good for humanity. I say if Europe, Asia, and the U.S. joined forces and marched on the middle east we could crush the Muslim threat before it has a chance to rise. Join me my white and asian brothers together we can combat the muslim hoards and create a brighter future for our children. After we take care of the muslims we Abolish Christianity and create a World Wide Atheist Government.

Canada City']As much as Islam likes to believe they control the world, they don't.

They need to learn to respect other people's cultures, beliefs, religions (or lack of). However, according to the war dogma known as the Quran, that isn't going to happen.

After the past few years from 9/11 to war on Iraq, I have switched sides from defending the Muslim faith to seeing them as nothing more than bunch of murderers following the words of someone who slept with a six year old girl.

These people who follow the 'religion of peace' are hypocrites and liars. Burning down buildings, the protest signs in the UK, and palestines celebrating when the towers were hit.

Why do people still defend these animals? They should be shot, just like all threatening animals. Animals don't have rights.

If the Muslim community was SERIOUS about their so called image, which I doubt, they wouldn't be threatening other people or ignoring what the terrorists are doing.

Muslims shrug at the neck slicing of a hostage by their own kind, but get fired up over a fucking cartoon.

Religion of peace my ass. :mad:

So I say, keep it going, A-rabs...The more of this shit you pull...the more people will realize that you guys are a bunch of violent idiots based on the destruction of the Jews (my religion) Isreal (my religion's country), the Christians, America, Europe and the west.

I just want people to stop harping a false idea that Islam is a religion of peace.
(But at least he realized the problem with his statement, but his message wasn't exactly an uncommon one. Here's his apology: )
A while back, I implied that the Muslium faith wasn't a peaceful faith. Well, I was proven wrong. I write for my college papers, and one of the articles I was writing for the march issuse was the Muslium cartoon controversty. Well I talked to him, and the issuse of Islam and was it a religion of peace. He pulled out the Koran (english verison) and showed me the full text. Boy was my face red. I then started to reflect on the people on my side. Fred Phelps, Pat Roberston etc, and I realize that people like Osama did what I did with my "Is Islam a religion of peace?" thread, people like Osama basically chopped up the Koran to fit their own sick twisted desires.

So, to all of the Muslium here on the forum, I would like to apologize for offending you, for being judgemental. Yes, I was judgemental and that was wrong of me. You know, Jesus Christ always taught us to fess up to our miskates and to ask for forgiveness, and to forgive other. I would hope that the muslium here on this form would find it in their heart to forgive me for my ingorant and uninformed opinion of the Muslium faith. That is all.


They are xenophobic racist massmurders. That is the chief export of their culture. There is no deying that.

But you're right. I will be happy to watch the robots scoop up the irradiated remains of their world that was live on CNN. I'll be eating a cheeseburger, with bacon, shouting Allah Ackbar, and laughing. But only if they don't choose peace, and they won't. If they are anything, they are predictable in that aspect. Aren't they?

Let's see...do Muslims think this will help their image? While I am sure that there are exceptions, Muslims as a whole don't appear to bother to think too often. Their reactions to anything that offends them is murder-death-kill. Kind of like orcs. "Me no like Westerners! They not like us. Me blow dem up, kill kill kill!"

I'm getting rather tired of that entire religion. It seems to be dominated by a rather savage, atavistic element. Look at the rape and murder in Darfur, the beheadings, the riots over headscarves, and now the jihad against cartoons.


First of all, what the flying fuck have I done to get this done to me?

I'm just a 15 year old half-Hispanic, half-Indian Muslim in the 10th grade, born and raised in California.

In General, in the streets, in school, and in the world, asshattery like this has been growing so goddamn fast because some fucking idiots decide to demand blood for a cartoon.

Well guess fucking what?

I'm not only a better person than you'll obviously ever become, but I'm NOT the equivelent to a retard running around blowing himself up and claiming to be a good Muslim!

Kids at school are coming to me and expecting to be an apologist for the people rioting over the "cartoons." I blame every single idiotic fool to condemns Islam and who doesn't take 10 seconds out of their day to learn a little.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.

Goddamn generalisations. I'm right behind you, Colodia. :mad:

I have a thought, what's so bad about my comment about evangelism? I still think it's better than killing anybody, and im pretty sure my comment was about WW3 against Islamic nations, I.E. the middle east? Don't see what's to get so increadibly angry about....

Coming from an Atheist, you could try to not to flagrantly take Jesus's name in vain in the same post you ask people to respect your religion.

You're only half muslim though, so you're only really half a terrorist...


(I agree with you btw)

(comparing Muslims to the Nazis)
Both blame Jews for their problems: Check
Both wish to eliminate Jews: Check
Both denied the holocaust was happening/happened: Check
Both deny rights to anyone not of their race/religion: Check
Both have centralized authority figures: Check
Both use hate and fear to further goals: Check

Did I miss any?

Both use broad generalizations of cultures they have little understanding of in order to breed hate? Oh wait, that's Verdigoth too...

But you don't get it. We have to hate Muslims because they are intolerant.

:headbang:

Don't see what's to get so increadibly angry about....
You're still suggesting that it would be better if there were no Muslims, aren't you?

Goddamn generalisations. I'm right behind you, Colodia. :mad:
That is an unnerving thought.

And they're right. Muslims are all a bunch of untrustworthy assholes. But, then, so are Jews, Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Agnostics, Pastafarians, Hindus, and everyone else with the higher brain capacity to think.

Coming from an Atheist, you could try to not to flagrantly take Jesus's name in vain in the same post you ask people to respect your religion.

Part of being tolerant is not reacting to every little insensitive thing someone else does.

Besides, there's a world of difference between saying "jesus fucking christ" and "let's round up all them Muslems and kill 'em."

You're still suggesting that it would be better if there were no Muslims, aren't you?

Wait, you mean through evangelism or through killing them all? No, the killing solution is definently wrong, and besides, what "it" are we referring to? :/

That is an unnerving thought.

And they're right. Muslims are all a bunch of untrustworthy assholes. But, then, so are Jews, Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Agnostics, Pastafarians, Hindus, and everyone else with the higher brain capacity to think.Yeah, humanity as whole can't be trusted.

We should be wiped out for the good of the planet.

That is an unnerving thought.

And they're right. Muslims are all a bunch of untrustworthy assholes. But, then, so are Jews, Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Agnostics, Pastafarians, Hindus, and everyone else with the higher brain capacity to think.
I worked hard to be called an asshole, being this or that doesn't entitle you to it. You have to work hard to be an asshole.

Yeah, humanity as whole can't be trusted.

We should be wiped out for the good of the planet.
oh, just wait a few years... :p

Yeah, humanity as whole can't be trusted.

We should be wiped out for the good of the planet.
No we should continue, for the good of ourselves, and we should embrace our own natures so that we can become more than just bit players. We all burn out, in the end, the great ones left craters.

Wait, you mean through evangelism or through killing them all? No, the killing solution is definently wrong, and besides, what "it" are we referring to? :/
"it" as in an undefined, abstract concept, primarily in the sentence for grammatical reasons.

No, really. Your suggestion was that it would be better to convert all Muslims in order to eradicate Islam than to kill all Muslims in order to eradicate Islam.

The point is: Why do you want Islam eradicated in the first place?

I know, let's put the words "those paticular" in front of each time the word Muslims is used, eh?

I worked hard to be called an asshole, being this or that doesn't entitle you to it. You have to work hard to be an asshole.
Everyone is an asshole, but you're also an Asshat, which is like an asshole, but it rapes goats and is proud to do so.

Everyone is an asshole, but you're also an Asshat, which is like an asshole, but it rapes goats and is proud to do so.

And looks stylish with a feather sticking out of it...

I used to get pissed too, but I pity people like that more than get angry anymore.

Besides, anyone that relies on broad generalizations like those are easy candidates for a suicide cult. I'm starting one just to see if I can get a Darwin award for over a hundred people at once. :D

Wait, you mean through evangelism or through killing them all? No, the killing solution is definently wrong, and besides, what "it" are we referring to? :/Evangelism? Do you mean proselytism?

And what religion do you suggest they be converted to?

I've given up arguing with Islamophobes. I still do it now and then in real life (when people say really stupid things), but not on political forums, usually.

It's like smashing your head against a brick wall.

Why wasn't I quoted.

I say some pretty cool stuff too.

For the record. I'm well aware that the violent few do not represent Islam. Just as I am aware that the Theocrats are not representitive of Christianity. Dosn't make me feel any better about the few.

Are there any non religious hate groups?

Atheists against fags maybe? Athiests for a pure white america?

I guess ones religion is no longer popular the hate groups will migrate to atheism and maybe there will be more hate groups tied to no-god.

Lack of eduacation and or poor education is usually responsable for intollerant communities.

If the Arabs where Christian and just as uneducated they'd be doing the same thing. Even dare I say if they where atheists and uneducated they'd still be doing the same thing.

phew im so glad that no quote from me was on your list!

yeah you have every right to be pissed. those generalizations include you. people who insist that all moslems are terrorists need be called on it. its stupid and its hurtful.

Coming from an Atheist, you could try to not to flagrantly take Jesus's name in vain in the same post you ask people to respect your religion.
Coming from a believer in God, Amen to that.

Why wasn't I quoted.

I say some pretty cool stuff too.

For the record. I'm well aware that the violent few do not represent Islam. Just as I am aware that the Theocrats are not representitive of Christianity. Dosn't make me feel any better about the few.

Are there any non religious hate groups?

Atheists against fags maybe? Athiests for a pure white america?

I guess ones religion is no longer popular the hate groups will migrate to atheism and maybe there will be more hate groups tied to no-god.

Athiests are just as hateful as the rest of the population of these disgusting animals called humans. They form hate groups. It just that those that are adherant to the religion of Athieism (yes, Athieism can be a relegion too.) are sometimes more tolerant of others than radical religious people.

Why wasn't I quoted.

I say some pretty cool stuff too.

For the record. I'm well aware that the violent few do not represent Islam. Just as I am aware that the Theocrats are not representitive of Christianity. Dosn't make me feel any better about the few.

Are there any non religious hate groups?

Atheists against fags maybe? Athiests for a pure white america?

I guess ones religion is no longer popular the hate groups will migrate to atheism and maybe there will be more hate groups tied to no-god.I'm not sure if religion will ever fall out of favor.

Being able to say your hate is a duty to a higher power (that can't be asked directly about the matter) is quite conveinent.

Coming from a believer in God, Amen to that.
Coming from a believer in Bob, send in your thirty dollars, kids.

X-Day's a comin'.

Part of being tolerant is not reacting to every little insensitive thing someone else does.
While I am generally a very tolerant person, I do believe that Man In Black made a very appropriate response.

Coming from a believer in Bob, send in your thirty dollars, kids.

X-Day's a comin'.
Will that be cash, cheque or MasterBob? :D

In General, in the streets, in school, and in the world, asshattery like this has been growing so goddamn fast because some fucking idiots decide to demand blood for a cartoon.

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.
Don't feel left out. There are many on here who do the same things to Christians. Keep in mind that many people feel freer on here to say things they probably wouldn't dream of saying in person.

Don't feel left out. There are many on here who do the same things to Christians. Keep in mind that many people feel freer on here to say things they probably wouldn't dream of saying in person.
I for one insult everyone equally, no one is special enough to deserve exemption in my eyes.

Don't feel left out. There are many on here who do the same things to Christians. Keep in mind that many people feel freer on here to say things they probably wouldn't dream of saying in person.

You often find attacks on Christianity. You rarely find people saying all Christians should be killed. There is a bit of a difference.

I for one insult everyone equally, no one is special enough to deserve exemption in my eyes.
Well ... uh ... at least you're consistent. Yeah. That's it. You're consistent! :D

Don't feel left out. There are many on here who do the same things to Christians. Keep in mind that many people feel freer on here to say things they probably wouldn't dream of saying in person.Guilty as charged.

But then Christians are the only ones who've tried to convert me ...

Muslims have had sense enough to leave my beliefs alone,

gotta respect that at least...

I agree with you 100%. But think of it this way: The ones who condem you, are those who dont understand Islam for what it truly is. Those terrorists are not good Muslims, they are criminals. Islam is founded on the same principals of Christianity. Hell, it is a requirement to respect the Prophets of Christianity because they are all within the Quoran as well! I am not a Muslim, but i find Islam to be a fascinating Religion.

Best wishes to you my friend!


----Premier of The Armed Republic of Wanderjar

Really, the Muslim religion isn't peaceful. Does that mean that all of its members are "evil" or should all die? No. But it really isn't a peaceful nation. It doesn't promote peace, and in past events its relevant. When they took over much of Africa and the middle east, and even into parts of Spain where they were extremely brutal and disguisting, it was convert or die. They weren't peaceful at all. But again, not everyone in the religion is evil.

"it" as in an undefined, abstract concept, primarily in the sentence for grammatical reasons.

No, really. Your suggestion was that it would be better to convert all Muslims in order to eradicate Islam than to kill all Muslims in order to eradicate Islam.

The point is: Why do you want Islam eradicated in the first place?

The goal is not eradication of ideas, it's bringing people to Christ so they can recieve eternal life :/. Simply eradicating ideas doesn't solve much, if you did that, then Islamic people would just believe in....nothing, and that's not very helpful. Evangelism is not simply eradication of ideals.

Yes, you have a right to be pissed, but just as every person you quoted has a right to say what is on their mind. It is unfortunate that their are those in this world who generalize regarding groups, religions, etc. Just as it is unfortunate that their are those in those groups, religions, etc that draw out those generalizations. This doesn't mean you have to let it get under your skin. Take a lesson from Keruvalia. Practice a little pactience, keep your cool, and don't get sucked into the gutter of human existance with those that happily reside there. You might even want to tg Keruvalia and ask how its done. Seek out those you might be in a similar situation for some advice and wait it out. Hate only hurts the one who harbors it... don't let it be you.

The goal is not eradication of ideas, it's bringing people to Christ so they can recieve eternal life :/. Simply eradicating ideas doesn't solve much, if you did that, then Islamic people would just believe in....nothing, and that's not very helpful. Evangelism is not simply eradication of ideals.
lol, please tell me you're a puppet. I do hope this is a joke.

The goal is not eradication of ideas, it's bringing people to Christ so they can recieve eternal life :/.
Well, if you're one of those types, I suppose I can't argue with you.

I have a thought, what's so bad about my comment about evangelism? I still think it's better than killing anybody, and im pretty sure my comment was about WW3 against Islamic nations, I.E. the middle east? Don't see what's to get so increadibly angry about....what is your religion again?

You often find attacks on Christianity. You rarely find people saying all Christians should be killed. There is a bit of a difference.
True, but I wonder how much of that is hyperbole?

lol, please tell me you're a puppet. I do hope this is a joke.

Do puppets take the time to write things like what's at here:http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=466900&page=41

Besides, despite all the time I spent on all that, the thread got locked, so I have no idea how that all was going to end :/. And anyway, what would you rather me say, that Muslims should all be killed? Im afraid that is still not an option, killing pretty much doesn't save anyone's soul, and since I am supposed to be a Christian, I see no problem with taking such a Biblical stance.

And just in case there was a misunderstanding, the bringing people to Christ thing is spiritual, I don't mean like drag people physically to heaven to be there right in front of Christ.

The goal is not eradication of ideas, it's bringing people to Christ so they can recieve eternal life :/. Simply eradicating ideas doesn't solve much, if you did that, then Islamic people would just believe in....nothing, and that's not very helpful. Evangelism is not simply eradication of ideals.See, this shit pisses me off!

Who the fuck are you to decide your religion is somehow better than someone elses?

This is why we have wars. Morons like this think their version of god is somehow more relevant than someone elses. Pretty soon they start killing each other to prove the point.




Religion's a joke. A joke on pathetic mankind who for some reason thinks he has the capacity to understand the reasons behind the universe.

The only thing I know for sure about "God" or whatever plan there is for the cosmos is that I don't know anything. And I'm fine with that.

Jesus fucking Christ.
Actually, it's Jesus H. Christ. And I think you are perfectly justified in being furious. I've always thought of Islam as a generally peaceful religion (as most inherently are) and the Muslim terrorists as extremists who wish to further their secular goals with no regard to the bad name they give others of the creed they claim to follow. I don't mind extremists....so long as they have a just cause and attribute false labels to themselves.:mad:

True, but I wonder how much of that is hyperbole?

And how often they just leave what to do with the christians unsaid...

See, this shit pisses me off!

Who the fuck are you to decide your religion is somehow better than someone elses?

This is why we have wars. Morons like this think their version of god is somehow more relevant than someone elses. Pretty soon they start killing each other to prove the point.




Religion's a joke. A joke on pathetic mankind who for some reason thinks he has the capacity to understand the reasons behind the universe.

The only thing I know for sure about "God" or whatever plan there is for the cosmos is that I don't know anything. And I'm fine with that.

I decided nothing, Christ did when He said that He was the way to salvation and that nobody comes to God except by Him, your beef seems to be with Him, not me. Besides, can you name a single example of a Christian or Christians murdering people or making war that is directly and Biblically supported by scripture, in context, and not liberally bent out of shape to mean what people want it to mean for the sake of whatever?

Besides, can you name a single example of a Christian or Christians murdering people or making war that is directly and Biblically supported by scripture, in context, and not liberally bent out of shape to mean what people want it to mean for the sake of whatever?
That's not the topic, but clearly you can be rational enough about this to see that the Christians who burned heretics distored Christianity in the same way that Islamist terrorists distort Islam.

See, this shit pisses me off!

Who the fuck are you to decide your religion is somehow better than someone elses?


Who the Fuck would choose an inferior religion to believe in.

As to a intolerant violent mindset. Theorb dosn't have an intolerant violent mindset.

I decided nothing, Christ did when He said that He was the way to salvation and that nobody comes to God except by Him, your beef seems to be with Him, not me. Besides, can you name a single example of a Christian or Christians murdering people or making war that is directly and Biblically supported by scripture, in context, and not liberally bent out of shape to mean what people want it to mean for the sake of whatever?Spare me the sermon, I was a confirmed Catholic. But I recovered.

You're a bible thumper, you should know that no war has ever been advocated directly by scripture.

However that has never stopped zealots and evangicals.

The road to "heaven" is lined with millions of bodies of those killed in the name of God.

Do puppets take the time to write things like what's at here:http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=466900&page=41

Besides, despite all the time I spent on all that, the thread got locked, so I have no idea how that all was going to end :/. And anyway, what would you rather me say, that Muslims should all be killed? Im afraid that is still not an option, killing pretty much doesn't save anyone's soul, and since I am supposed to be a Christian, I see no problem with taking such a Biblical stance.

And just in case there was a misunderstanding, the bringing people to Christ thing is spiritual, I don't mean like drag people physically to heaven to be there right in front of Christ.
wait...supposedly you're Christian? Now how does that work? But that's exactly the thing with Christians. They, at least the ones I have problems with, think that Jesus is the way and the only way and that Jesus is great, and they try to impose their faith on others. After reading Things Fall Apart, which is based on true occurances, I am disgusted with Chrstians trying to convert others.

See, this shit pisses me off!

Who the fuck are you to decide your religion is somehow better than someone elses?

This is why we have wars. Morons like this think their version of god is somehow more relevant than someone elses. Pretty soon they start killing each other to prove the point.




Religion's a joke. A joke on pathetic mankind who for some reason thinks he has the capacity to understand the reasons behind the universe.

The only thing I know for sure about "God" or whatever plan there is for the cosmos is that I don't know anything. And I'm fine with that.

The worst part is that the joke is hilarious and infuriating all at once, depending on my mood. You almost quoted Socrates: "The only thing I know with any certainty is that I know nothing." Of course, you also almost quoted some other guy, too: "What man can know the mind of God?" The real question is why mankind must feel the need to mold others into his image and miss the true value of diversity altogether.:confused:

Both use broad generalizations of cultures they have little understanding of in order to breed hate? Oh wait, that's Verdigoth too...

Actually I replying to a post about how you can't compare Islam and Nazism. I was trying to point out that you can compare them based on some of there more vocal similiarities. You missed a nice post where I pointed out that not all muslims are evil malicious hate mongers. Everyone is an individual. But you can use inductive reasoning occasionally to make generalizations. As long as you are willing to adapt when individuals go against stereotypes.

Who the Fuck would choose an inferior religion to believe in.

As to a intolerant violent mindset. Theorb dosn't have an intolerant violent mindset.Nobody choses an inferior religion.

That's the problem, they all believe their's is superior.

Which is all fine and good until some asshole comes along and decides we can't all be superior, they must be inferior..





and then posts about it.

snip


Spot on! It's funny, I knew who most of the people would be before I even read their quotes.

You have a right to anger, and no one has a right to demand an apology from you for something you did not to.

People are assholes. They should be kicked in the face. I'm behind you all the way.

Yes, you have a right to be pissed, but just as every person you quoted has a right to say what is on their mind. It is unfortunate that their are those in this world who generalize regarding groups, religions, etc. Just as it is unfortunate that their are those in those groups, religions, etc that draw out those generalizations. This doesn't mean you have to let it get under your skin. Take a lesson from Keruvalia. Practice a little pactience, keep your cool, and don't get sucked into the gutter of human existance with those that happily reside there. You might even want to tg Keruvalia and ask how its done. Seek out those you might be in a similar situation for some advice and wait it out. Hate only hurts the one who harbors it... don't let it be you.


Also, what (s)he said. :) Probably better then kicking people in the face, as funny as that is.


lol, please tell me you're a puppet. I do hope this is a joke.

What is so wrong about what he said? He has a perfect right to believe that and say it, I don't think it's so out there. It's exactly the same as saying "I'm Christain." And I hope you're not that intolerant that you can't accept that someone would believe in Christianity.


True, but I wonder how much of that is hyperbole?

Sadly, much is not :(

That's the part that gets under my skin.



I decided nothing, Christ did when He said that He was the way to salvation and that nobody comes to God except by Him, your beef seems to be with Him, not me.

Personally, that's not the message I got out of it, but that's a whole nother matter.


Pretty much every religion has it verson of "we are the path to salvation." getting mad at people for say that they think their religion is the path to salvation is the same as getting mad at people for being of a certain religion.


Also, don't be so quick with the accusation of war. Theorb never advocated violence, don't put words into people's mouths.

I am disgusted with Chrstians trying to convert others.

I'm not I take there right of evangilism as my own. They convert I try to convert them back.

I decided nothing, Christ did when He said that He was the way to salvation and that nobody comes to God except by Him, your beef seems to be with Him, not me. Besides, can you name a single example of a Christian or Christians murdering people or making war that is directly and Biblically supported by scripture, in context, and not liberally bent out of shape to mean what people want it to mean for the sake of whatever?
thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

I decided nothing, Christ did when He said that He was the way to salvation and that nobody comes to God except by Him, your beef seems to be with Him, not me. Besides, can you name a single example of a Christian or Christians murdering people or making war that is directly and Biblically supported by scripture, in context, and not liberally bent out of shape to mean what people want it to mean for the sake of whatever?
Of course it wouldn't be in the scripture, dumbass! The scriptures are written from a pro-Christian bias, making everyone out to be the enemy deserving of death.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

wait...supposedly you're Christian? Now how does that work? But that's exactly the thing with Christians. They, at least the ones I have problems with, think that Jesus is the way and the only way and that Jesus is great, and they try to impose their faith on others. After reading Things Fall Apart, which is based on true occurances, I am disgusted with Chrstians trying to convert others.

I meant supposedly because, after all, we are in a thread about generalizations, and from what I understand, objective opinions on who is a Christian and who isn't can vary wildly, and im sure there are many people out there who would not call me a Christian, though I'd disagree with them of course. And I read Things Fall Apart a couple years ago in school, I thought it was a very interesting book personally, and definently spoke to me about how, well, not everyone who calls themself a Christian really cares at all about acting like one or, I suspect, even being one. Do you really think all Christians try to convert at the edge of a gun?

wait...supposedly you're Christian? Now how does that work? But that's exactly the thing with Christians. They, at least the ones I have problems with, think that Jesus is the way and the only way and that Jesus is great, and they try to impose their faith on others. After reading Things Fall Apart, which is based on true occurances, I am disgusted with Chrstians trying to convert others.

So you read one book hilighting the worst of the bad and think you have the whole story?

Also note that there are 15 less christians in Nigeria right now thanks to muslim rioting. you may not be the problem...but since you are part of the greater whole of people who identify themselves as muslim, you need to start leading by example so that others don't continue to soil your religion. Don't get me wrong I don't hate muslims, I hate people who take religious beliefs to the extreme.

I'd just like to say thank you to all the wonderful people who have contributed to this topic. I've really gained an appreciation for being hated for being a "pervert."

thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
But I'm quite fond of my Purple Witch.....:p

Of course it wouldn't be in the scripture, dumbass! The scriptures are written from a pro-Christian bias, making everyone out to be the enemy deserving of death.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


Not even close, you fucking asshat

I decided nothing, Christ did when He said that He was the way to salvation and that nobody comes to God except by Him, your beef seems to be with Him, not me. Besides, can you name a single example of a Christian or Christians murdering people or making war that is directly and Biblically supported by scripture, in context, and not liberally bent out of shape to mean what people want it to mean for the sake of whatever?

I now decide that My way is the only way to salvation. Submit yourself to Me sinners and be redeemed through service and flaggellation. Those who follow in My light will never fall into darkness.

For the rest of your post, granted nothing taken literally directly call for war in the present day (unless you are of the tribe of Israel) but many of the punishments dictated in the book of Leviticus would be considered murder in our current culture. Ultimately since a religion can only rightfully be judged by the effects it has on its followers; Christianity can be considered a violent religion since it was used so frequently to justify violence (even as recently as the 1980s many Christians performed genocide on non-christians in Guatamala).

Also note that there are 15 less christians in Nigeria right now thanks to muslim rioting. you may not be the problem...but since you are part of the greater whole of people who identify themselves as muslim, you need to start leading by example so that others don't continue to soil your religion. Don't get me wrong I don't hate muslims, I hate people who take religious beliefs to the extreme.

So what are the moderate Muslims supposed to do? Whenever they do speak up the West and its media generally ignore them because they're not the homicidal raving fruitcakes everyone loves to call "True Muslims." And obviously the forementioned fruitcakes will ignore them too, or call them heretics who are perverting Islam (Projection, anyone?) And if they resort to force, not only does it make them lose by stooping to the enemy's level, it just adds on more to the "Muslims are violent people who need to be Holocausted out of existence" perception that's popular enough as it is.

I now decide that My way is the only way to salvation. Submit yourself to Me sinners and be redeemed through service and flaggellation. Those who follow in My light will never fall into darkness.

For the rest of your post, granted nothing taken literally directly call for war in the present day (unless you are of the tribe of Israel) but many of the punishments dictated in the book of Leviticus would be considered murder in our current culture. Ultimately since a religion can only rightfully be judged by the effects it has on its followers; Christianity can be considered a violent religion since it was used so frequently to justify violence (even as recently as the 1980s many Christians performed genocide on non-christians in Guatamala).

What about all the good Christianity has done? It has helped me get ahold of my anger, and is the only reason I'm not a violent person. In my life, Christanity is peace, happyness, and has helped me become a more whole, functional person.

I now decide that My way is the only way to salvation. Submit yourself to Me sinners and be redeemed through service and flaggellation. Those who follow in My light will never fall into darkness.



Oh holy Ga-halek worthy of praise you are. Beat me Beat Me!! oh riteus one.

Not even close, you fucking asshat
You ever try reading the damned thing? Can you get past the "begetting?" More than that, have you ever examined the people who supposedly followed the "scriptures?" They don't come across as terribly nice people, if you can follow the implication, you minute portion of roach excrement.

What about all the good Christianity has done? It has helped me get ahold of my anger, and is the only reason I'm not a violent person. In my life, Christanity is peace, happyness, and has helped me become a more whole, functional person.

Those benefits are very real ones that many people who are not religious forget; however those same benefits can be received through a religion that is not intolerant and does not have a history of violence. Such as Buddhism, Hinduism, or Taoism.

What about all the good Christianity has done? It has helped me get ahold of my anger, and is the only reason I'm not a violent person. In my life, Christanity is peace, happyness, and has helped me become a more whole, functional person.

You shoulda come to me. I coulda done better.

(even as recently as the 1980s many Christians performed genocide on non-christians in Guatamala).link?

What about all the good Christianity has done? It has helped me get ahold of my anger, and is the only reason I'm not a violent person. In my life, Christanity is peace, happyness, and has helped me become a more whole, functional person.
That just means you are weak and needed a wheelchair. Apparently, a walking stick just wasn't enough for you. Ultimately, control is up to the individual, regardless of any perceived deities.

Also note that there are 15 less christians in Nigeria right now thanks to muslim rioting. you may not be the problem...but since you are part of the greater whole of people who identify themselves as muslim, you need to start leading by example so that others don't continue to soil your religion. Don't get me wrong I don't hate muslims, I hate people who take religious beliefs to the extreme.
who the fuck cares that they were Christians? Does that matter at all? They are dead. they were human. The outrage should not come because there are 15 dead christians, but because there are 15 dead HUMAN BEINGS.

In the end, religion doesn't mean shit. Being a christan doesn't make you better than being a muslim. being a jew doesnt make you better than a buddhist. You being a good person makes you a better person than the fuckhead standing next to you.

Colodia, you have every right to be pissed. No one has the right to tell you you don't. You're emotions are your own, and cannot be dictated by anyone else. And if you want someone to kick each and every asshat who expects you to apologise for someone else in the balls, feel free to ask ;)

thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

OT Law, fulfilled by Christ, see Galatians 3:1-5 and Galatians 3:23-25.

Those benefits are very real ones that many people who are not religious forget; however those same benefits can be received through a religion that is not intolerant and does not have a history of violence. Such as Buddhism, Hinduism, or Taoism.Islamism, Judaism..

What about all the good Christianity has done? It has helped me get ahold of my anger, and is the only reason I'm not a violent person. In my life, Christanity is peace, happyness, and has helped me become a more whole, functional person.Great, it's a tool that worked for you. You probably could have gotten similar results with other tools, but it's your choice. I'm glad it works for you. Go in peace with your happy, functional self.


Just don't try to tell me it's somehow relevent to my life and that I need to be saved ...

Those benefits are very real ones that many people who are not religious forget; however those same benefits can be received through a religion that is not intolerant and does not have a history of violence. Such as Buddhism, Hinduism, or Taoism.
Then again, why do we need to attribute labels to things at all? Couldn't one simply find one's own peace with the universe through whatever means(hopefully non-violent) suitable to the individual?

link?

I read about in books (such as Killing Hope which focuses on the support given to the genocide by the US military and CIA) but you shouldn't have trouble doing a google search.

who the fuck cares that they were Christians? Does that matter at all? They are dead. they were human. The outrage should not come because there are 15 dead christians, but because there are 15 dead HUMAN BEINGS.

In the end, religion doesn't mean shit. Being a christan doesn't make you better than being a muslim. being a jew doesnt make you better than a buddhist. You being a good person makes you a better person than the fuckhead standing next to you.

Colodia, you have every right to be pissed. No one has the right to tell you you don't. You're emotions are your own, and cannot be dictated by anyone else. And if you want someone to kick each and every asshat who expects you to apologise for someone else in the balls, feel free to ask ;)

the sad fact is that they were killed for being christian. it wasn't mindless muslim rioting..they found a target and killed them...15 of them...outrage be damned. If I were to go out and and kill muslims because of terrorism then the fact that they were muslim has a valid point. It denotes a specific target.

Islamism, Judaism..

I count those two with Christianity as being harmful religions.

You ever try reading the damned thing? Can you get past the "begetting?" More than that, have you ever examined the people who supposedly followed the "scriptures?" They don't come across as terribly nice people, if you can follow the implication, you minute portion of roach excrement.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have lost my temper, we can stop ending our posts with insults.

Yes, I have read the Bible, and yes, I know several extremly nice, generous, kind, friendly people who follow the scriptures. I still think your assertion that the scriptures say that any non-Christain is , what was it? "evil and worthy of death?"

Maby the people who you've met weren't very friendly because of your intollerance of their religion? I have no idea how you act in real life, but just a thought.

the sad fact is that they were killed for being christian. it wasn't mindless muslim rioting..they found a target and killed them...15 of them...outrage be damned. If I were to go out and and kill muslims because of terrorism then the fact that they were muslim has a valid point. It denotes a specific target.
none the less. Who cares that they were christian? Who would care that you killed a muslim? That doesn't matter. They are dead. They were human. The religion is just being used as a way to make it "us vs. them", which, quite honestly, is bullshit. I don't care that a christian is dead. I care that a human being is dead for no good reason.

the sad fact is that they were killed for being christian. it wasn't mindless muslim rioting..they found a target and killed them...15 of them...outrage be damned. If I were to go out and and kill muslims because of terrorism then the fact that they were muslim has a valid point. It denotes a specific target.
But his point, really, is that it shouldn't matter what religion they were. They were human, and nothing should make it more of a tragedy than that.

Then again, why do we need to attribute labels to things at all? Couldn't one simply find one's own peace with the universe through whatever means(hopefully non-violent) suitable to the individual?

Definitely (that's what I'm doing); but for many people it is easier to follow a path and I see nothing wrong with that as long as the path isn't harmful to one's self or others. And organized religion also performs functions that individual spirituality isn't able to, such as provide what appears to be an objective moral code (though of course organized religion causes problems that individual spirituality does not).

Those benefits are very real ones that many people who are not religious forget; however those same benefits can be received through a religion that is not intolerant and does not have a history of violence. Such as Buddhism, Hinduism, or Taoism.I got no beefs with Buddhism or Taoism.

But Hindu's have a bit of explaining to do with that whole caste system thing before they get off my list.

Those benefits are very real ones that many people who are not religious forget; however those same benefits can be received through a religion that is not intolerant and does not have a history of violence. Such as Buddhism, Hinduism, or Taoism.

I don't see Christianity as violent. And people have murdered in the names of all those religions. Violence between Hindus and Buddhists in South Asia springs directly to mind. The others just have had the bed fortune of being taken as official religions of powerful states who would justify their wars some way or another.

Great, it's a tool that worked for you. You probably could have gotten similar results with other tools, but it's your choice. I'm glad it works for you. Go in peace with your happy, functional self.


Just don't try to tell me it's somehow relevent to my life and that I need to be saved ...

I'm not. My post was in responce to someone saying that Christianity has done nothing but start wars.


Then again, why do we need to attribute labels to things at all? Couldn't one simply find one's own peace with the universe through whatever means(hopefully non-violent) suitable to the individual?

Yes, and I hope people do.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have lost my temper, we can stop ending our posts with insults.

Yes, I have read the Bible, and yes, I know several extremly nice, generous, kind, friendly people who follow the scriptures. I still think your assertion that the scriptures say that any non-Christain is , what was it? "evil and worthy of death?"

Maby the people who you've met weren't very friendly because of your intollerance of their religion? I have no idea how you act in real life, but just a thought.
Yes, I lost my temper as well. Forgive me, but sometimes injustice (not toward the original post of interest) infuriates me uncontrollably. I'm not saying everyone who reads it reads the same thing, just that scriptures tend to be biased toward their own religion in their message of heaven vs. hell, which lends a shadow of implied evil over those who do not follow the teachings of the scriptures in question and gives the impression that they deserve hell for not conforming to those scriptures.
Oh, and I tend to be very tolerant "in real life" with a tinge of mockery.

none the less. Who cares that they were christian? Who would care that you killed a muslim? That doesn't matter. They are dead. They were human. The religion is just being used as a way to make it "us vs. them", which, quite honestly, is bullshit. I don't care that a christian is dead. I care that a human being is dead for no good reason.

great a human is dead...which teaches no one a freaking moral lesson. Like don't freaking kill someone because they have a set of beliefs that don't affect you. yeah it sucks...but you miss the point. if christian riots had killed 15 muslims I would be ripping on the christians. YOU DON'T KILL PEOPLE BECAUSE OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS NO MATTER HOW MAD YOU FREAKING ARE!!! There is that clear. People need to start taking responsibility for their actions. If you belong to a group that does something morally reprehensible then you need to speak out against it or you are basically giving permission for them to continue in your name. I am American...Bush should have never gone into Iraq. It was wrong. Maybe some good came out of it...time will tell..but it never should have happened. If the Iraqis wanted freedom they should have taken it. America shouldn't have intervened. There now I am not so much of a hypocrite

I count those two with Christianity as being harmful religions.

No matter how peaceful and noble a religion is in principle, human beings have an unfortunate habit of turning monotheism into a power grab and consolidation party.

But his point, really, is that it shouldn't matter what religion they were. They were human, and nothing should make it more of a tragedy than that.
exactly...and thank you.

I don't care if you are christian, muslim, gay, straight, male, female, black, nazi, communist, democrat, republican...all of those are incidential. We are all human first.

shit...I can't find the quote. I'll find it.

I got no beefs with Buddhism or Taoism.

But Hindu's have a bit of explaining to do with that whole caste system thing before they get off my list.

The only problem with the caste system is that it is outdated. Castes existed throughout most of the world for thousands of years and they were generally justified through religion (divine right of kings for example), the Hindus simply did an excellent job of incorporating, explaining, and justifying the castes needed for their society to function into their religion. It was extremely useful for making people accept their role in life and commit themselves to fulfilling it well. Granted this goes against our capitalist notions of the right of an individual to rise by their own merit; but they can hardly be faulted for this.

Those benefits are very real ones that many people who are not religious forget; however those same benefits can be received through a religion that is not intolerant and does not have a history of violence. Such as Buddhism, Hinduism, or Taoism.

Interesting, lets see:

BODHISATTVA WARRIORS
by Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche

Many great Buddhist masters have prophesied that centuries from
now, when the forces of aggression amass on earth and no reason can
turn them back, the kingdom of Shambhala will open its gates and its
enlightened warriors will come forth into battle. Whoever they
encounter will be given a choice--turn away from non virtue to virtue
or, by direct, wrathful intervention, be liberated into a pure land
beyond suffering.

Hindu Inherent Racism
In Modern India, caste is determined by familial inheritance and actual historical rulers and ruling dynasties are not necessarily of Kshatriya caste, since many obtained power by conquest. Therefore, the only continuation of the original Aryan Vedic Kshatriya castes are the Rajputs.

Rajputs are known for their sense of honour, chivalry and love of tradition and revelry. They celebrate weddings, festivals and feasts to the Gods with great enthusiasm ,customs which are now fading against the scenario of Indian culture which is now being rapidly urbanised and modernised.

Most of these Rajputs are relatively fairer skinned than the other communities and have sharp grecian/mediterranean/caucasian features hinting at a definite Aryan /Scythic descent.

Taoist: “Romance of the Three Kingdoms,” glorification of ‘essentially,' worlds at war.


I fail to see how your three examples are any different than the ones you attack.

Definitely (that's what I'm doing); but for many people it is easier to follow a path and I see nothing wrong with that as long as the path isn't harmful to one's self or others. And organized religion also performs functions that individual spirituality isn't able to, such as provide what appears to be an objective moral code (though of course organized religion causes problems that individual spirituality does not).Organized religion is a security blanket. A nicely defined explanation of the universe and a way around mortality that we can curl up with at night to help us sleep.

'Cause once that whole uncertainty of the cosmos and our own existance thing is out of the way we can get down to whats really important.

Owning lots of toys and carving up the world to better suit our needs.

Definitely (that's what I'm doing); but for many people it is easier to follow a path and I see nothing wrong with that as long as the path isn't harmful to one's self or others. And organized religion also performs functions that individual spirituality isn't able to, such as provide what appears to be an objective moral code (though of course organized religion causes problems that individual spirituality does not).
Well, the problem is they get confused that their path is the absolute best and only path, which creates problems. Without the label of the path, it becomes infinitely more difficult to say your path is better, for there is no way to relate it to another. Everything you claim to be specific to organized religion I maintain can be achieved by the strength of the individual. Society, however, often tells the individual he is too weak to do anything without interaction with the rest of society.

great a human is dead...which teaches no one a freaking moral lesson. Like don't freaking kill someone because they have a set of beliefs that don't affect you. yeah it sucks...but you miss the point. if christian riots had killed 15 muslims I would be ripping on the christians. YOU DON'T KILL PEOPLE BECAUSE OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS NO MATTER HOW MAD YOU FREAKING ARE!!! There is that clear. People need to start taking responsibility for their actions. If you belong to a group that does something morally reprehensible then you need to speak out against it or you are basically giving permission for them to continue in your name. I am American...Bush should have never gone into Iraq. It was wrong. Maybe some good came out of it...time will tell..but it never should have happened. If the Iraqis wanted freedom they should have taken it. America shouldn't have intervened. There now I am not so much of a hypocrite
Doesn't teach a fucking moral lesson? How about DON'T KILL?! Period. End of discussion. I don't care why you killed, you killed. That is all there is to it. It was wrong. It is wrong. It will always be wrong. The reasoning will never justify it. You killed, end of story. You took someones life, willingly, and claimed you were justified. You don't kill people. How's that for a moral lesson? And yes, I believe that people should condemn the acts they disagree with...but I think the condemnation should come regardless of belonging to that group or not. I'm against muslim atrocities as much as any other atrocity. I speak out against that which I disagree with because I feel it is wrong.
I don't think America should have gone to Iraq. But I also don't think Britain should have, and I'm not associated with them. I don't think the sudanese should be commiting genocide. I speak out against it, regardless of the fact that I am not on any side fighting, for the simple fact that it is wrong.

snip


There is a major difference in degree. If you study the religious texts of the respective religion and their histories it can be seen with great clarity that they are not as violent as the Abrahamic religions.

Organized religion is a security blanket. A nicely defined explanation of the universe and a way around mortality that we can curl up with at night to help us sleep.

'Cause once that whole uncertainty of the cosmos and our own existance thing is out of the way we can get down to whats really important.

Owning lots of toys and carving up the world to better suit our needs.
If I wasn't confused with the notion that I might be in love (I think), I would probably ask you to be my non-sexual life-partner.:D

Yes, I lost my temper as well. Forgive me, but sometimes injustice (not toward the original post of interest) infuriates me uncontrollably. I'm not saying everyone who reads it reads the same thing, just that scriptures tend to be biased toward their own religion in their message of heaven vs. hell, which lends a shadow of implied evil over those who do not follow the teachings of the scriptures in question and gives the impression that they deserve hell for not conforming to those scriptures.
Oh, and I tend to be very tolerant "in real life" with a tinge of mockery.


I see what you are saying, and I can definatly see that, but at the same time, Christianity preaches respect and tolerance to those not of the religion. There are parts of the New Testiment when Jesus says that if you're not a Christain, and you do good, God will welcome you into Heaven, because it means you had good in your heart without preists and rabbi's telling you exactly how to act.

Have you studied Orthodoxy, spacifically Greek Orthodoxy? I find I like it alot better then other sects of Christianity, it is less restrictive on the indevidual believer, in terms of interpretation, and leaves scripture more in it's pure form, as opposed to making othet people's interpretations of it dogma.

Your initial post was a bit harsher then the above, but my responce was inapropreate as well.


See how this turned out so much better when we both calmed down and were rational, instead of trading insults and not being productive at all? :)

Doesn't teach a fucking moral lesson? How about DON'T KILL?! Period. End of discussion. I don't care why you killed, you killed. That is all there is to it. It was wrong. It is wrong. It will always be wrong. The reasoning will never justify it. You killed, end of story. You took someones life, willingly, and claimed you were justified. You don't kill people. How's that for a moral lesson? And yes, I believe that people should condemn the acts they disagree with...but I think the condemnation should come regardless of belonging to that group or not. I'm against muslim atrocities as much as any other atrocity. I speak out against that which I disagree with because I feel it is wrong.
I don't think America should have gone to Iraq. But I also don't think Britain should have, and I'm not associated with them. I don't think the sudanese should be commiting genocide. I speak out against it, regardless of the fact that I am not on any side fighting, for the simple fact that it is wrong.
That outlines a major function of religion, to give a group a reason to do whatever they please so long as it's a dictate from God himself. They care nothing for humanity, only what they can do to humanity.

Well, the problem is they get confused that their path is the absolute best and only path, which creates problems. Without the label of the path, it becomes infinitely more difficult to say your path is better, for there is no way to relate it to another. Everything you claim to be specific to organized religion I maintain can be achieved by the strength of the individual. Society, however, often tells the individual he is too weak to do anything without interaction with the rest of society.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and the various pagan faiths (among others) do not prostelyze (with any intensity at the very least) and do not hold themselves as superior to others. Those problems are largely limited to the Abrahamic religions. You have to realize the differences between individuals. Not everyone is able to follow their own path; many people truly need to turn to authority for guidance. And an external moral code (which is necessary for most people) requires organized religion (granted a secular group could also provide one, but its more efficient with religion).

But you don't get it. We have to hate Muslims because they are intolerant.

:headbang:

Anyone who has more than half a brain is intolerant. It's called ethnocentrism. Religion has nothing to do with it. Besides, until the second half of the twentieth century the Christians of Europe were violently surpressing the Jews, and you don't see flame threads about Jesus. Why? Because the most powerful nation in the world is run by Christians, and God forbid anyone knock the bully behind his back.

That outlines a major function of religion, to give a group a reason to do whatever they please so long as it's a dictate from God himself. They care nothing for humanity, only what they can do to humanity.
I found the quote I wanted.
We went to the candle vigil and it was so good to be with people who felt liKe shit. I kept feeling like I don't deserve to feel this bad. Somebody got up and said, ''Come on guys, let's show the world that Laramie is not this kind of a town.''

But it is this kind of a town.

If it wasn't, then why did this happen here? I mean, that's a lie,
because it happened here. So how could it not be a town where this kind of thing happens? How can you even say that? We have to mourn this, and
we have to be sad, but we live in a town, a state, a country where shit like this happens. People are trying to distance themselves from this crime and we need to own this crime, I feeI. Everyone needs to own it. We are like this. We are like this.


We are like this.

-The Laramie Project

No ones hands are clean. It is time to own up to that fact.

Screw evangicals and the Jesus they rode in with.

Organized religion is a security blanket. A nicely defined explanation of the universe and a way around mortality that we can curl up with at night to help us sleep.

'Cause once that whole uncertainty of the cosmos and our own existance thing is out of the way we can get down to whats really important.

Owning lots of toys and carving up the world to better suit our needs.

Hear hear, this is exactly the problem with many modern day organized religious movements, especially somewhat mainstream Christianity. As I understand it, most churches do try to sell this "Christ will make you gooderer " thing, which understandably, many people here are vehemenently opposed to. If Christianity was really all about being a mere security blanket, i'd probably be out there railing against it along with many other people, because there are, as people have noticed, many extremely silly problems with such a perspective. But Christ never said He would make all who believe in Him a better or happier person in this life, He said that He would grant whoever believed in Him (and was born again of the spirit) eternal life. As long as Christians let other people force them into the traps of "Security blanket religions are bad!" rather than overcoming it by pointing out that Christ died for our sins so that people would not be judged by God, who uses an infinitly just standard against the world, then of course it's going to be hard to convince many people that they should become a Christian. Just thought i'd take the opportunity to bring this up, I don't like cotton-candy Christianity, along with many people here it seems :/.

So you read one book hilighting the worst of the bad and think you have the whole story?
I was going to expound on that, but I could just see myself getting carried away and writing a damn essay. That's the biggest catalyst, so I referred to that.

No matter how peaceful and noble a religion is in principle, human beings have an unfortunate habit of turning monotheism into a power grab and consolidation party.

Polithiesm as well. Theism in general.

I don't think America should have gone to Iraq. But I also don't think Britain should have, and I'm not associated with them. I don't think the sudanese should be commiting genocide. I speak out against it, regardless of the fact that I am not on any side fighting, for the simple fact that it is wrong.

Spot on!

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.
I forgive you for your anger, as I think it is well-justified. I was involved in the debate with Stone Bridges, though he wouldn't respond to my points. (I think I might have intimidated him by actually knowing what I was talking about.) I hate to say it, but these cartoons are like the anti-Islam sentiments that happened after 9-11. Hopefully the nonsense will calm down soon.

Organized religion is a security blanket. A nicely defined explanation of the universe and a way around mortality that we can curl up with at night to help us sleep.

'Cause once that whole uncertainty of the cosmos and our own existance thing is out of the way we can get down to whats really important.

Owning lots of toys and carving up the world to better suit our needs.

Most people don't care about understanding the universe (I'm sure that sounds counter intuitive, but talk to "ordinary" people you will see it to be true); and many religious people accept scientific explainations of the universe anyways. Science is extremely useful for manipulating and understanding material reality but it can go no farther than this. It is unable to fulfill any of the subjective needs some people have (feeling of love, relief of despair, etc.) and thus religion (or spirituality) is useful. And since science won't give a way around mortality (just make us realize there is no way), religion performs a useful role in that regard (that is relieving the fear of death).

I see what you are saying, and I can definatly see that, but at the same time, Christianity preaches respect and tolerance to those not of the religion. There are parts of the New Testiment when Jesus says that if you're not a Christain, and you do good, God will welcome you into Heaven, because it means you had good in your heart without preists and rabbi's telling you exactly how to act.

Have you studied Orthodoxy, spacifically Greek Orthodoxy? I find I like it alot better then other sects of Christianity, it is less restrictive on the indevidual believer, in terms of interpretation, and leaves scripture more in it's pure form, as opposed to making othet people's interpretations of it dogma.

Your initial post was a bit harsher then the above, but my responce was inapropreate as well.


See how this turned out so much better when we both calmed down and were rational, instead of trading insults and not being productive at all? :)
Nah, I've never studied Orthodoxy at all. Come to think of it, I don't know how I know so much about Christianity. I never even liked the religion. I always thought the good you had to do was good according to Jesus/God not just good in general. One example of misuderstanding "good" is human sacrifice. I find it could be necessary to sacrifice humanity for its own good, but I doubt Jesus/God would condone genocide under any circumstances.

First of all, what the flying fuck have I done to get this done to me?

I'm just a 15 year old half-Hispanic, half-Indian Muslim in the 10th grade, born and raised in California.

In General, in the streets, in school, and in the world, asshattery like this has been growing so goddamn fast because some fucking idiots decide to demand blood for a cartoon.

Well guess fucking what?

I'm not only a better person than you'll obviously ever become, but I'm NOT the equivelent to a retard running around blowing himself up and claiming to be a good Muslim!

Kids at school are coming to me and expecting to be an apologist for the people rioting over the "cartoons." I blame every single idiotic fool to condemns Islam and who doesn't take 10 seconds out of their day to learn a little.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.

Thank you VERY MUCH for making those unintelligent, uneducated, stain-on-the-intelligence-of-humanity, stain-on-humanity, reason-why-Aliens-will-kill-us idiotics ashamed of what they did.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x 130937403240398432984398040983284903489349878397

'Cause someone needed to do it.

Screw evangicals and the Jesus they rode in with.
Congrats for making a moot point.

Most people don't care about understanding the universe (I'm sure that sounds counter intuitive, but talk to "ordinary" people you will see it to be true); and many religious people accept scientific explainations of the universe anyways. Science is extremely useful for manipulating and understanding material reality but it can go no farther than this. It is unable to fulfill any of the subjective needs some people have (feeling of love, relief of despair, etc.) and thus religion (or spirituality) is useful. And since science won't give a way around mortality (just make us realize there is no way), religion performs a useful role in that regard (that is relieving the fear of death).
I'll take my religion without the Wheelchair O' Death, thank you very much. We shouldn't worry about things so far beyond our control. You are right about science existing solely in our material realm, though. People should turn to people for such things that cannot be provided by logic and reason, not appeal to a higher power. Who needs the hand of God when the compassion of humanity is more than enough? Man has spent so long looking beyond the heavens, he has forgotten what is truly important: man.

snip

Spot on.

I'll take my religion without the Wheelchair O' Death, thank you very much. We shouldn't worry about things so far beyond our control. You are right about science existing solely in our material realm, though. People should turn to people for such things that cannot be provided by logic and reason, not appeal to a higher power. Who needs the hand of God when the compassion of humanity is more than enough? Man has spent so long looking beyond the heavens, he has forgotten what is truly important: man.

Wait, why should people trust other people rather than God? We're not that amazing. (And by the way, was this sarcastic, I don't mean to sound mean, but your last sentence sounds ripped out of some old Humanist writings :/.)

no shit... I mean look at those dirty scum bucket Americans... if they weren't so bad then why does practically every town have clinics for raped/battered women/children. Americans are violent and sexually deviant and the world would be better off without them.

no shit... I mean look at those dirty scum bucket Americans... if they weren't so bad then why does practically every town have clinics for raped/battered women/children. Americans are violent and sexually deviant and the world would be better off without them.
Yes we are, and yes, it would. :D

no shit... I mean look at those dirty scum bucket Americans... if they weren't so bad then why does practically every town have clinics for raped/battered women/children. Americans are violent and sexually deviant and the world would be better off without them.
I thought those clinics were good things, but I've never looked at it that way before.:( Don't you have shelters in Europe or Canada or where ever you're from?

I'll take my religion without the Wheelchair O' Death, thank you very much. We shouldn't worry about things so far beyond our control. You are right about science existing solely in our material realm, though. People should turn to people for such things that cannot be provided by logic and reason, not appeal to a higher power. Who needs the hand of God when the compassion of humanity is more than enough? Man has spent so long looking beyond the heavens, he has forgotten what is truly important: man.


You know what? We feel exactly the same on many many points, we just have one major difference, on religion and God Himself. So we agree on the ends, it's in how we both get there that the problem lies :)

no shit... I mean look at those dirty scum bucket Americans... if they weren't so bad then why does practically every town have clinics for raped/battered women/children. Americans are violent and sexually deviant and the world would be better off without them.

And the iranian policy of executing rape victims is soooo much better.

I'll take my religion without the Wheelchair O' Death, thank you very much. We shouldn't worry about things so far beyond our control. You are right about science existing solely in our material realm, though. People should turn to people for such things that cannot be provided by logic and reason, not appeal to a higher power. Who needs the hand of God when the compassion of humanity is more than enough? Man has spent so long looking beyond the heavens, he has forgotten what is truly important: man.

That clearly works well for you (and it works well for me except I feel no need to turn to anyone else) but many people prefer to believe that they are following some higher power. Also, Therevada Buddhism and Taoism have no higher power.

Anyone who has more than half a brain is intolerant. It's called ethnocentrism. Religion has nothing to do with it. Besides, until the second half of the twentieth century the Christians of Europe were violently surpressing the Jews, and you don't see flame threads about Jesus. Why? Because the most powerful nation in the world is run by Christians, and God forbid anyone knock the bully behind his back.You're new here aren't you?

We not only knock the bully here, we give him full blown atomic wedgies....

I thought those clinics were good things, but I've never looked at it that way before.:( Don't you have shelters in Europe or Canada or where ever you're from?


lol

I'm from Amuricuh

Yes we have shelters here and yes they are a good thing, but the bettering and rapings that foster the need for them aren't and you could say it's just a small portion of Amuricuhns that do this but have you seen how many women and children are abused every year by Amuricuhns? it's devastating and an obvious sign that they (we) are no good as a whole!

lol

I'm from Amuricuh

Yes we have shelters here and yes they are a good thing, but the bettering and rapings that foster the need for them aren't and you could say it's just a small portion of Amuricuhns that do this but have you seen how many women and children are abused every year by Amuricuhns? it's devastating and an obvious sign that they (we) are no good as a whole!
Oh, I get it now. Nice.;)

You know what? We feel exactly the same on many many points, we just have one major difference, on religion and God Himself. So we agree on the ends, it's in how we both get there that the problem lies :)
haha...who cares how you get there...atleast you're both there.

lol

I'm from Amuricuh

Yes we have shelters here and yes they are a good thing, but the bettering and rapings that foster the need for them aren't and you could say it's just a small portion of Amuricuhns that do this but have you seen how many women and children are abused every year by Amuricuhns? it's devastating and an obvious sign that they (we) are no good as a whole!

Righty-ho on this, it's a good thing we aren't expected to be good people in order to get to heaven eh? :)

Wait, why should people trust other people rather than God? We're not that amazing. (And by the way, was this sarcastic, I don't mean to sound mean, but your last sentence sounds ripped out of some old Humanist writings :/.)
I have never had a need to read Humanist writings. I was completely serious. We should trust other people, albeit very cautiously these days, because we don't really need any God/gods. All we need to realize is that man is man, whatever his creed or ethnic/racial origin. None of us really understand Death anyway, so there is no point worrying about what it brings/won't bring. As for the other things--love, belonging, grief, compassion, despair, etc.--man can provide them or consolation for them respectively. We need no being of infinite power to console us when we mourn or despair, to laugh with us when we are happy and content, to pity and redirect us when we stray from our personal moral codes; man can provide all these functions.

And the iranian policy of executing rape victims is soooo much better.


Nope it isn't, but that doesn't make Americans any less violent and sexually deviant.

Nope it isn't, but that doesn't make Americans any less violent and sexually deviant.

Every society has deviants. Welcome to reality.

Every society has deviants. Welcome to reality.

But some have more than others.

Every society has deviants. Welcome to reality.
:D
By Cheney, I think he's got it!

Righty-ho on this, it's a good thing we aren't expected to be good people in order to get to heaven eh? :)


What does heaven have to do with any of this?

Jesus was just a man, Mary was a "young woman" not a "virgin", Christ comes from the greek Kristos, meaning literally "Messiah" and the bible is a compilation of mythological tales originated from simple tribesmen.

Deal with it.

You know what? We feel exactly the same on many many points, we just have one major difference, on religion and God Himself. So we agree on the ends, it's in how we both get there that the problem lies :)
I don't see it as problem so much as a crossing of paths at a sinkhole. We both seem to have fallen in and assisted each other in correcting our courses and understanding the other's path more fully. Of course, it's always really funny to answer the question "What's your religion?" with "The Universe." That pisses people off more than answering with "The Devil!":p

Every society has deviants. Welcome to reality.


Obviously... American prisons are full to the brim. You must just be bad people as a whole. *laughing that the point seems to be completely missed*

I have never had a need to read Humanist writings. I was completely serious. We should trust other people, albeit very cautiously these days, because we don't really need any God/gods. All we need to realize is that man is man, whatever his creed or ethnic/racial origin. None of us really understand Death anyway, so there is no point worrying about what it brings/won't bring. As for the other things--love, belonging, grief, compassion, despair, etc.--man can provide them or consolation for them respectively. We need no being of infinite power to console us when we mourn or despair, to laugh with us when we are happy and content, to pity and redirect us when we stray from our personal moral codes; man can provide all these functions.

If God were only about consoling people and giving people love, a sense of belonging, compassion, etc. etc., i'd be inclined to agree with you probably. But the thing about Christinanity is that if you read the Bible literally, you won't really get a sense that Christ and God are here only to give us what we all want and to make us feel real snazzy, this is supposed to be about saving people's very eternal existance from being judged by an infinitly just standard, which if (and I do mean "if") it was applied to every person in the world, would make every single person who lived and will live have to go to hell. That's not to say Christ won't give people a sense of fulfilment and happiness per-se, but those things are simply side results of being saved, not the whole deal. If it was the whole deal, well then, there'd be a problem all right :/.

:D
By Cheney, I think he's got it!


Unfortunely it seems the point was gotten unintentionally, as a defense of America rather than a realization of a deep truth.

What was so bad about my comment? I didn't call Arabs murdering assholes, or terrorist. Hell I know that the majority of muslium are just people that are trying to live their lives day by day. However, I am right in my comment about Islam not being a religion of peace as so many people claim that it was. I mean other posters on that thread has backed up the quotes that I put up there that came from the Koran. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to lie to your face just because I'm worried about offending you. I have more respect for mankind than that. However, if you'd bother reading the entire thread, or even half of it. I also said that while Jesus Christ taught love, peace, forgivness, etc. The fact is that Christians (such as myself) also read the Old Testament, which also promotes violence. The whole point of that thread was that there is no "religion of peace" The people who say it are just trying to find a way to excuse the small violent minority for their actions. So my apologies for not lying to your face.

*waits for death threats and hate letters*

haha...who cares how you get there...atleast you're both there.
Quiet, pseudo-Hindu! :p

True, but it's important to understand the differences in perspectives, for that yields not only a greater understanding of the universe, but also helps to establish an appreciation for our fellow man. Still, I think we differ on the importance of the God/gods figure(s) and probably the notions of heaven and hell. I care how others get "there" because it will help me to adjust any indiscretions in my course as I proceed to a higher existence in the universe.

If God were only about consoling people and giving people love, a sense of belonging, compassion, etc. etc., i'd be inclined to agree with you probably. But the thing about Christinanity is that if you read the Bible literally, you won't really get a sense that Christ and God are here only to give us what we all want and to make us feel real snazzy, this is supposed to be about saving people's very eternal existance from being judged by an infinitly just standard, which if (and I do mean "if") it was applied to every person in the world, would make every single person who lived and will live have to go to hell. That's not to say Christ won't give people a sense of fulfilment and happiness per-se, but those things are simply side results of being saved, not the whole deal. If it was the whole deal, well then, there'd be a problem all right :/.

See the problem with interpreting the bible literally is the same problem with interpreting the Bhagavad-gita or the Illiad literally. It requires one to ignore the contradictions between observable reality and the text and requires one to ignore the historical/cultural context of the work. The Bible is a mythological text; it has no more value than any other collection of myths in terms of the supernatural. It's only value is in its effects on the followers.

Hear hear, this is exactly the problem with many modern day organized religious movements, especially somewhat mainstream Christianity. As I understand it, most churches do try to sell this "Christ will make you gooderer " thing, which understandably, many people here are vehemenently opposed to. If Christianity was really all about being a mere security blanket, i'd probably be out there railing against it along with many other people, because there are, as people have noticed, many extremely silly problems with such a perspective. But Christ never said He would make all who believe in Him a better or happier person in this life, He said that He would grant whoever believed in Him (and was born again of the spirit) eternal life. As long as Christians let other people force them into the traps of "Security blanket religions are bad!" rather than overcoming it by pointing out that Christ died for our sins so that people would not be judged by God, who uses an infinitly just standard against the world, then of course it's going to be hard to convince many people that they should become a Christian. Just thought i'd take the opportunity to bring this up, I don't like cotton-candy Christianity, along with many people here it seems :/.Sorry to bring this up but you seem to be claiming to be what I consider the worst kind of Christian. Those that are focused on the 'accept jesus and you will be saved' bit. Do you really think god gives you a free pass 'cause you accept Jesus as the savior? What kind of morality is that? It's the worst kind of security blanket religion in my book. You focus on the "I'm gonna get eternal life" and no more nightmares about what happens after you die, you can sleep thanks to your blankie.

If there is a god, I'm pretty sure how you live your life counts for much more than which version of him you accept.

What was so bad about my comment? I didn't call Arabs murdering assholes, or terrorist. Hell I know that the majority of muslium are just people that are trying to live their lives day by day. However, I am right in my comment about Islam not being a religion of peace as so many people claim that it was.
Who claimed it was? Just curious.

:D
By Cheney, I think he's got it!

No he didn't or he'd have a facefull of pellets.

:D

No he didn't or he'd have a facefull of pellets.

:D

*rimshot*

Quiet, pseudo-Hindu! :p

True, but it's important to understand the differences in perspectives, for that yields not only a greater understanding of the universe, but also helps to establish an appreciation for our fellow man. Still, I think we differ on the importance of the God/gods figure(s) and probably the notions of heaven and hell. I care how others get "there" because it will help me to adjust any indiscretions in my course as I proceed to a higher existence in the universe.

I agree with you entirely on this; but why does this lead you to an universal condemnation of religion?

Who claimed it was? Just curious.

My teachers, several leftist here at college, several news sources etc.

I have never had a need to read Humanist writings. I was completely serious. We should trust other people, albeit very cautiously these days, because we don't really need any God/gods. All we need to realize is that man is man, whatever his creed or ethnic/racial origin. None of us really understand Death anyway, so there is no point worrying about what it brings/won't bring. As for the other things--love, belonging, grief, compassion, despair, etc.--man can provide them or consolation for them respectively. We need no being of infinite power to console us when we mourn or despair, to laugh with us when we are happy and content, to pity and redirect us when we stray from our personal moral codes; man can provide all these functions.

I feel the same way, but I also have room for God in that.

If God were only about consoling people and giving people love, a sense of belonging, compassion, etc. etc., i'd be inclined to agree with you probably. But the thing about Christinanity is that if you read the Bible literally, you won't really get a sense that Christ and God are here only to give us what we all want and to make us feel real snazzy, this is supposed to be about saving people's very eternal existance from being judged by an infinitly just standard, which if (and I do mean "if") it was applied to every person in the world, would make every single person who lived and will live have to go to hell. That's not to say Christ won't give people a sense of fulfilment and happiness per-se, but those things are simply side results of being saved, not the whole deal. If it was the whole deal, well then, there'd be a problem all right :/.
Ah, but you understand my words out of context. They referred to people pleaing for all those things that "make us feel real snazzy"(I like the way you said that :D ) and not the canonized concept that the God figure would provide them. I simply maintain that we should appeal to man to make our lives, the lives of men, more bearable and to provide ourselves with our happiness and well-being as opposed to appealing to providence to accomplish what we men can do without the divine.

What was so bad about my comment? I didn't call Arabs murdering assholes, or terrorist. Hell I know that the majority of muslium are just people that are trying to live their lives day by day. However, I am right in my comment about Islam not being a religion of peace as so many people claim that it was. I mean other posters on that thread has backed up the quotes that I put up there that came from the Koran. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to lie to your face just because I'm worried about offending you. I have more respect for mankind than that. However, if you'd bother reading the entire thread, or even half of it. I also said that while Jesus Christ taught love, peace, forgivness, etc. The fact is that Christians (such as myself) also read the Old Testament, which also promotes violence. The whole point of that thread was that there is no "religion of peace" The people who say it are just trying to find a way to excuse the small violent minority for their actions. So my apologies for not lying to your face.

*waits for death threats and hate letters*
No mate, you're dead wrong.

So long as there's mosques with men and women praying everyday for peace on Earth in communities, with families, and at homes, preaching peace, love, and brotherhood, you'll be dead wrong.

People excusing a small minority for their actions. :rolleyes:

First of all, there is no excuse for the radicals. They are going to rightfully burn in hell, where they belonged the day they picked up a gun and decided to get out and kill.

Secondly, I don't know who the hell's excuses you're listening to.

Anyways...

My teachers, several leftist here at college, several news sources etc.Islam is a religion of peace, just like Christainity and Judism are.


It's just that Muslims, Christians and Jews tend to be warlike assholes who selectively interpret their religions.

See the problem with interpreting the bible literally is the same problem with interpreting the Bhagavad-gita or the Illiad literally. It requires one to ignore the contradictions between observable reality and the text and requires one to ignore the historical/cultural context of the work. The Bible is a mythological text; it has no more value than any other collection of myths in terms of the supernatural. It's only value is in its effects on the followers.

The problem with interpreting it non-literally, however, is that then people use Christianity for the craziest things, like the KKK, Spanish Inquistion, Salem witch trials, abortion clinic bombings, etc. etc., you can't have the best of both worlds, not that interpreting it non-literally has a best anyway...... Besides, in quite a long amount of time reaserching answers to so-called "contradictions" in the Bible, I have yet to find a single example of a contradiction that I haven't seen a perfectly reasonable explanation for, I can't lump them all together in one or 2 categories of mis-understanding of course, (There's like lists of thousands on some websites i've seen,) but the point is, what's more wrong, interpreting it literally and always trying not to kill everyone or make them suffer, or bending it to people's natural desires and often end up hurting or killing people?

Unfortunely it seems the point was gotten unintentionally, as a defense of America rather than a realization of a deep truth.

Hey, but you know what the difference between us and the muslims is, right? Our deviants are just greedy and commit crime for personal gain. Their deviants are borderline psychotic and ram jets into skyscrapers.

Quiet, pseudo-Hindu! :p

True, but it's important to understand the differences in perspectives, for that yields not only a greater understanding of the universe, but also helps to establish an appreciation for our fellow man. Still, I think we differ on the importance of the God/gods figure(s) and probably the notions of heaven and hell. I care how others get "there" because it will help me to adjust any indiscretions in my course as I proceed to a higher existence in the universe.
who's the pseudo-Hindu now?;)

The problem with interpreting it non-literally, however, is that then people use Christianity for the craziest things, like the KKK, Spanish Inquistion, Salem witch trials, abortion clinic bombings, etc. etc., you can't have the best of both worlds, not that interpreting it non-literally has a best anyway...... Besides, in quite a long amount of time reaserching answers to so-called "contradictions" in the Bible, I have yet to find a single example of a contradiction that I haven't seen a perfectly reasonable explanation for, I can't lump them all together in one or 2 categories of mis-understanding of course, (There's like lists of thousands on some websites i've seen,) but the point is, what's more wrong, interpreting it literally and always trying not to kill everyone or make them suffer, or bending it to people's natural desires and often end up hurting or killing people?

I don't care about the internal contradictions, I care about the contradictions with reality, such as the world being created in seven days (and turning the days into millennia changes nothing). Ultimately for what is wrong it is not a choice of which of two arbitrary choices is more wrong (though obviously the better one is the one that doesn't involve killing people), but it is this religion or a different one (or none at all); and a different religion I feel would be superior. They all promise that their path is the best so don't worry about the whole salvation thing.

I agree with you entirely on this; but why does this lead you to an universal condemnation of religion?
It's not a condemnation of religion but rather a condemnation of organized religion. "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."--Steven Weinberg
Apart from corrupting spirituality, I don't see organized religion as necessary. Everything we need is within us, so we needn't appeal to a higher power for what we think we need. We should take more responsibility for ourselves and our actions instead of attributing them to the will of a higher power beyond our control which probably views us as about as interesting as we find ants as old men.

Islam is a religion of peace, just like Christainity and Judism are.


It's just that Muslims, Christians and Jews tend to be warlike assholes who selectively interpret their religions.

Then how do you explain some of the violent text in the Bible, Torah (Old Testament) and the Koran? Also, how do you explain The Cursade, the actions of Muhammed (Let's face it, he did commit alot of violence action spreading the Muslium empire). Look, I'll agree that today, there are Muslium, Christians, and Jews who are praying in the Mosque (hope I got that right), Synagouge (hope I got that one right too) and Church, praying for peace. But, you cannot deny the fact that all three religion does have a bloody past and they do have violence in their text.

Sorry to bring this up but you seem to be claiming to be what I consider the worst kind of Christian. Those that are focused on the 'accept jesus and you will be saved' bit. Do you really think god gives you a free pass 'cause you accept Jesus as the savior? What kind of morality is that? It's the worst kind of security blanket religion in my book. You focus on the "I'm gonna get eternal life" and no more nightmares about what happens after you die, you can sleep thanks to your blankie.

If there is a god, I'm pretty sure how you live your life counts for much more than which version of him you accept.

Well it certainly can't matter if God is judging by an infinitly just standard, and besides, it's not a free pass because you have to actually give something of yours, namely, your faith. You can't surrender something you never had in the first place. Besides, I could sleep before I was a Christian, because like many people, I simply didn't care. Nobody told me a reason I considered really good and compelling to care. Even after I thought I was a Christian the first time, I still actually didn't care very much. It was only after reading what God had to say on the subject about caring about our eternal salvation that I actually started caring.

Then how do you explain some of the violent text in the Bible, Torah (Old Testament) and the Koran? Also, how do you explain The Cursade, the actions of Muhammed (Let's face it, he did commit alot of violence action spreading the Muslium empire). Look, I'll agree that today, there are Muslium, Christians, and Jews who are praying in the Mosque (hope I got that right), Synagouge (hope I got that one right too) and Church, praying for peace. But, you cannot deny the fact that all three religion does have a bloody past and they do have violence in their text.

Personally, I don't care much for the past. Past is over. But NOW, muslims are being violent. That's the thing we need to worry about.

Also, I can't speak for Jews or muslims, but for Christians, the New Testament mostly cancels out the old.

Then how do you explain some of the violent text in the Bible, Torah (Old Testament) and the Koran? Also, how do you explain The Cursade, the actions of Muhammed (Let's face it, he did commit alot of violence action spreading the Muslium empire). Look, I'll agree that today, there are Muslium, Christians, and Jews who are praying in the Mosque (hope I got that right), Synagouge (hope I got that one right too) and Church, praying for peace. But, you cannot deny the fact that all three religion does have a bloody past and they do have violence in their text.
Whop deeeeee friggin' dooo...the Qu'ran could start off with "It was a dark and stormy night....POURING WITH THE BLOOD OF THE INFIDELS AND THE HEARTS OF THE SINNERS!" And I wouldn't care, it's not like I read it anyway.

Quit looking to the histories. Grow up. If you look to the histories of whatever, whenever, you'll be horrified. Britain has a terrible history of oppression and murder, but you don't see me running around condeming today's British and calling them warmongerers (Just their bloody Blair).

And don't bother looking to the books. I've never read them anyways. I don't see the point anyway, I'll still be the same as any other Muslim.

I feel the same way, but I also have room for God in that.
That's just it, though, I don't think you really need God for that. When you have need of your God-figure, he will assist you....or fail you depending on perspective. Either way, it is beyond your control. Your God-figure will do what your God-figure will do, regardless of what you ask him to do. Frankly, I find my gods to be annoying things whose costs outweigh their benefits. Try to court one and most of them toy around with you for four thousand years :( ....miserable curs....

Hey, but you know what the difference between us and the muslims is, right? Our deviants are just greedy and commit crime for personal gain. Their deviants are borderline psychotic and ram jets into skyscrapers.

Why should I expect anything more then generalizations from you? Yes the world is completely black and white. Shades of grey do not exist and any who says otherwise is just filling your head with propaganda, because there is no possible way to look at things from different angles. It's either the Kievan-Prussia way or the wrong way.

So, there aren't any psychotic Americans? Gee I wonder why there are multiple mental health centers all around the US for then, it must be because of all the greed. Americans beat their wives, and form groups like NAMBLA because of greed.

No Americans have commited terrorist acts out of some political or religious ideaology? Okay lets forget crater forming fertilizer bombs and abortion clinics.

It's not like Americans went around killing people from the middle east after 9/11. Oh wait... must have been that damn greed. Perhaps you think they had a good reason, maybe Americans are the only ones that are able to come up with legitimate reasons for killing innocent people out of anger.

It's not a condemnation of religion but rather a condemnation of organized religion. "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."--Steven Weinberg
Apart from corrupting spirituality, I don't see organized religion as necessary. Everything we need is within us, so we needn't appeal to a higher power for what we think we need. We should take more responsibility for ourselves and our actions instead of attributing them to the will of a higher power beyond our control which probably views us as about as interesting as we find ants as old men.

The problem with Weinberg is the question of what is "good" and what is "evil"? Religion offers easy answers to this; otherwise everyone needs to come up with their own. That works for me well enough since I base decsions on rational self-interest and am something of an isolationist; but most people are very different in both respects. A common moral code is extremely beneficial to a society and organized religion is the best vector to distribute it. It is true that organized religion is not necessary; but nothing (not science, spirituality, or anything else) is truly neccessary (excluding food, water, and the such). What do we need that is with in us? The notion of a supreme omnipotent power (in the monothiestic sense) is limited to the Abrahamic religions, Baha'i faith, Sikhism and a few new religious movements such as Eckandaar (sp?), and can be used to condemn other organized religions.

Whop deeeeee friggin' dooo...the Qu'ran could start off with "It was a dark and stormy night....POURING WITH THE BLOOD OF THE INFIDELS AND THE HEARTS OF THE SINNERS!" And I wouldn't care, it's not like I read it anyway.

Quit looking to the histories. Grow up. If you look to the histories of whatever, whenever, you'll be horrified. Britain has a terrible history of oppression and murder, but you don't see me running around condeming today's British and calling them warmongerers (Just their bloody Blair).

And don't bother looking to the books. I've never read them anyways. I don't see the point anyway, I'll still be the same as any other Muslim.
I wish the Qu'ran did start that way. That could make excellent material for a novel....Mind if I use it?

I don't care about the internal contradictions, I care about the contradictions with reality, such as the world being created in seven days (and turning the days into millennia changes nothing). Ultimately for what is wrong it is not a choice of which of two arbitrary choices is more wrong (though obviously the better one is the one that doesn't involve killing people), but it is this religion or a different one (or none at all); and a different religion I feel would be superior. They all promise that their path is the best so don't worry about the whole salvation thing.

Technically speaking, if you really want to get nit-picky over the subject, the word "day" in ancient Hebrew actually could theoretically mean either a 12 hour day, a 24 hour day, or an undetermined length of time if im remebering correctly. Personally, I think it was literally days, simply because it seems like the tradition and because most people who argue against it i've seen come across as more of a "Well, God's infinitly powerful, but not THAT infinitly powerful" argument, or worse yet, a "If you don't believe that the Bible is lying when it says days, you are calling God a liar" argument, which basically, if true, would mean that a huge group of Christians (Im talking like millions) would get to go to Hell forever, just because they believed the Bible literally and didn't know their ancient Hebrew. But back on the subject, are you saying that we shouldn't worry about eternal salvation because many religions talk about it differently, or because you think salvation is over-rated?

Why should I expect anything more then generalizations from you? Yes the world is completely black and white. Shades of grey do not exist and any who says otherwise is just filling your head with propaganda, because there is no possible way to look at things from different angles. It's either the Kievan-Prussia or the wrong way.

I'm glad we agree on something.

So, there aren't any psychotic Americans? Gee I wonder why there are multiple mental health centers all around the US for then, it must be because of all the greed. Americans beat their wives, and form groups like NAMBLA because of greed.

Never said there weren't. But most Western deviants just want cash or sex. Blowing ourselves up for a god isn't a habit of ours.

No Americans have commited terrorist acts out of some political or religious ideaology? Okay lets forget crater forming fertilizer bombs and abortion clinics.

See above.

It's not like Americans went around killing people from the middle east after 9/11. Oh wait... must have been that damn greed. Perhaps you think they had a good reason, maybe Americans are the only ones that are able to come up with legitimate reasons for killing innocent people out of anger.

Yes, American troops were sent to "kill those damn ragheads." Sure.

Whop deeeeee friggin' dooo...the Qu'ran could start off with "It was a dark and stormy night....POURING WITH THE BLOOD OF THE INFIDELS AND THE HEARTS OF THE SINNERS!" And I wouldn't care, it's not like I read it anyway.

Quit looking to the histories. Grow up. If you look to the histories of whatever, whenever, you'll be horrified. Britain has a terrible history of oppression and murder, but you don't see me running around condeming today's British and calling them warmongerers (Just their bloody Blair).

And don't bother looking to the books. I've never read them anyways. I don't see the point anyway, I'll still be the same as any other Muslim.

I look to the past because A. It what I do, I am a history major, it's going to be my job one day to look back into the past. So sorry if I'm disturbing some dirty laundry, and B. I believe that if we do not learn from our past, we are doomed to repeat them. I mean look at the United States, we didn't learn from Vietnam and look whats happening today with Iraq! Yes, History is violent, most of it is, I'll agree. However, by looking at the violence, by learning what caused them, we can learn how to prevent them, so that we can build a better more peaceful future. That is why I look to the past.

I look to the past because A. It what I do, I am a history major, it's going to be my job one day to look back into the past. So sorry if I'm disturbing some dirty laundry, and B. I believe that if we do not learn from our past, we are doomed to repeat them. I mean look at the United States, we didn't learn from Vietnam and look whats happening today with Iraq! Yes, History is violent, most of it is, I'll agree. However, by looking at the violence, by learning what caused them, we can learn how to prevent them, so that we can build a better more peaceful future. That is why I look to the past.
You're just using the past as justification for your opinions. What you should do is practice what you preach, mmkay?

Well it certainly can't matter if God is judging by an infinitly just standard, and besides, it's not a free pass because you have to actually give something of yours, namely, your faith. You can't surrender something you never had in the first place. Besides, I could sleep before I was a Christian, because like many people, I simply didn't care. Nobody told me a reason I considered really good and compelling to care. Even after I thought I was a Christian the first time, I still actually didn't care very much. It was only after reading what God had to say on the subject about caring about our eternal salvation that I actually started caring.

Why is it that in your mind being infinitely just requires one to give infinitely harsh punishments to everyone? Also explain to me this justice where an innocent (Jesus) is killed for the sins of the guilty (everyone else)? And all of this seems like God creating arbitrary moral standards (if "good" isn't created by him it must come from something higher than him and thus contradict his omnipotence) that no one can live by; creating an extreme punishment for everyone who can't meet his impossible standards; calling this infinite justice; and then allowing people to escape his punishment if they submit themselves to him; but he only sent down his son to one place so most people never have an opportunity to submit and thus are punished for all eternity for things beyond their control. Of course to all of this you will likely give a reply along the lines of "We cannot understand the ways of God" which essentially amounts to God saying, "Fuck you, I do what I want."

I'm glad we agree on something.

Never said there weren't. But most Western deviants just want cash or sex. Blowing ourselves up for a god isn't a habit of ours.

See above.

Yes, American troops were sent to "kill those damn ragheads." Sure.

Did I say American troops? No I didn't. I was referring to American citizens all over the US killing other American citizens of middle eastern decent. A Sikh friend of mind that ran a convenience store was shot in the back of the head after 9/11. I heard several reports in the news about incidents just like this just after 9/11 (with your attitude I wouldnt be surprised if you were one of those aggressors). I remember hearing about people running anyone with a turban down with their car.

But anyway keep making excuses for the 2 million or so Americans in prison (Americans have more people in prison than anyone else right?) as being not so bad because they only commit crime for greed and lust (as if that somehow makes them any better than anyone else that commits crime for any other reason).

You're just using the past as justification for your opinions. What you should do is practice what you preach, mmkay?

and pray tell how should I do that? By sticking my head in the sand? By denying what is written in the text that my religion, my faith is built on?

Also, I do pratice what I preach. I preach love, understanding, and treating your fellow man as you would treat yourself. I help my fellow man, I give my guidance to those who need it, I give my food to the poor and those who are hungry, and I look out for my family and friends.

The problem with Weinberg is the question of what is "good" and what is "evil"? Religion offers easy answers to this; otherwise everyone needs to come up with their own. That works for me well enough since I base decsions on rational self-interest and am something of an isolationist; but most people are very different in both respects. A common moral code is extremely beneficial to a society and organized religion is the best vector to distribute it. It is true that organized religion is not necessary; but nothing (not science, spirituality, or anything else) is truly neccessary (excluding food, water, and the such). What do we need that is with in us? The notion of a supreme omnipotent power (in the monothiestic sense) is limited to the Abrahamic religions, Baha'i faith, Sikhism and a few new religious movements such as Eckandaar (sp?), and can be used to condemn other organized religions.
But then religion becomes their wheelchair(as I am fond of saying), which makes them easy to be led around by anyone who claims to be their connection to God. Another thing about most people is that they don't feel secure with sitting in their wheelchair looking at all the other people in their wheelchairs: they think the others might have a viable source of attaining eternal life or some such crap, so they seek to destroy their opponents. It's kinda like not letting anyone have it because they can't have it. Those "needs" to which I refer are the psychological/emotional needs humans have. They can be fulfilled by mankind and the understanding that one cannot understand anything beyond mankind. I did not intend to refer to monotheism in particular, but rather to all organized religions. Whatever good and evil are, religion is still an essential component to making good men commit evil deeds. Oh, and you forgot Zoroastrianism.:p

Technically speaking, if you really want to get nit-picky over the subject, the word "day" in ancient Hebrew actually could theoretically mean either a 12 hour day, a 24 hour day, or an undetermined length of time if im remebering correctly. Personally, I think it was literally days, simply because it seems like the tradition and because most people who argue against it i've seen come across as more of a "Well, God's infinitly powerful, but not THAT infinitly powerful" argument, or worse yet, a "If you don't believe that the Bible is lying when it says days, you are calling God a liar" argument, which basically, if true, would mean that a huge group of Christians (Im talking like millions) would get to go to Hell forever, just because they believed the Bible literally and didn't know their ancient Hebrew. But back on the subject, are you saying that we shouldn't worry about eternal salvation because many religions talk about it differently, or because you think salvation is over-rated?

I think we shouldn't worry about it because one of the following is true:
1. No religion leads to salvation (and thus it is pointless to worry about it)
2. All religions lead to salvation (and thus it is pointless to worry about it as long as you find some religion).
3. Only one religion leads to salvation (worth worrying about but how do you know which religion is the right one?)

I think the first possibility is the most likely and I'm willing to stake my soul (if I have one) on it. If the third possibility is true, as you believe, what makes you certain that Christianity is the right one?

and pray tell how should I do that? By sticking my head in the sand? By denying what is written in the text that my religion, my faith is built on?

Also, I do pratice what I preach. I preach love, understanding, and treating your fellow man as you would treat yourself. I help my fellow man, I give my guidance to those who need it, I give my food to the poor and those who are hungry, and I look out for my family and friends.
Gee, funny how it only applies when it affects you and not when it affects us hmm?

who's the pseudo-Hindu now?;)
Still you. I'm the pseudo-Hindu+1. Up-grade! :D :D :D

Did I say American troops? No I didn't. I was referring to American citizens all over the US killing other American citizens of middle eastern decent. A Sikh friend of mind that ran a convenience store was shot in the back of the head after 9/11. I heard several reports in the news about incidents just like this just after 9/11 (with your attitude I wouldnt be surprised if you were one of those aggressors). I remember hearing about people running anyone with a turban down with their car.

Yes. I'm sure it was a fucking epidemic.

But anyway keep making excuses for the 2 million or so Americans in prison (Americans have more people in prison than anyone else right?) as being not so bad because they only commit crime for greed and lust (as if that somehow makes them any better than anyone else that commits crime for any other reason).

I'm not making excuses for them. But at least they know it was their own stupid fault, and at least they're doing it for an understandable reason. Not justifiable, but understandable.

Gee, funny how it only applies when it affects you and not when it affects us hmm?

Umm, I got nothing from that, can I have a clarification please?

Well it certainly can't matter if God is judging by an infinitly just standard, and besides, it's not a free pass because you have to actually give something of yours, namely, your faith. You can't surrender something you never had in the first place. Besides, I could sleep before I was a Christian, because like many people, I simply didn't care. Nobody told me a reason I considered really good and compelling to care. Even after I thought I was a Christian the first time, I still actually didn't care very much. It was only after reading what God had to say on the subject about caring about our eternal salvation that I actually started caring.Every time you post you hightlight more of the problems I have with organized religion. Faith? More security blanket stuff. You accept some hole ridden version of how reality is put together, it involves some quasi patriarcial omniparient overseer and a set of writings that are "his word" (nevermind that he never actually speaks to anyone besides those that recorded "his word") and suddenly you're a better person for it? It makes you care? Most of the time I see it making people not care. They care less about what happens to them and the world around them because they have this bullshit notion that some paradise awaits them because of their 'faith'.

I look out at the cosmos and acknowledge that I know jack about it. I don't know why I'm here or if my life has any meaning. If there is a unifying plan or design to the structure of life I'm certain that it's beyond the grasp of human comprehension. I figure that when I die that's probably it, no pearly gates or fiery depths, my physical being will be recycled and life on this planet will continue without me.

But I have no fear of it. I don't let it consume me or drive me to grasping at the straws that are religion hoping to somehow cheat the inevitable.

But I figure that living my life the best I can, trying to improve the world I live in and try to change things for the better is the best way to live my life. If I do have a part in a greater plan then I'm pretty sure that's it. If not, well at least the world won't be worse for me having lived.

Why is it that in your mind being infinitely just requires one to give infinitely harsh punishments to everyone? Also explain to me this justice where an innocent (Jesus) is killed for the sins of the guilty (everyone else)? And all of this seems like God creating arbitrary moral standards (if "good" isn't created by him it must come from something higher than him and thus contradict his omnipotence) that no one can live by; creating an extreme punishment for everyone who can't meet his impossible standards; calling this infinite justice; and then allowing people to escape his punishment if they submit themselves to him; but he only sent down his son to one place so most people never have an opportunity to submit and thus are punished for all eternity for things beyond their control. Of course to all of this you will likely give a reply along the lines of "We cannot understand the ways of God" which essentially amounts to God saying, "Fuck you, I do what I want."
I think he's confused the messenger for the message.

Never said there weren't. But most Western deviants just want cash or sex. Blowing ourselves up for a god isn't a habit of ours.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy196.html

http://www.polygamyinfo.com/sects-FLDS.htm

Sounds like another Jonestown/Waco explosion waiting to happen.

Yes. I'm sure it was a fucking epidemic.

I'm not making excuses for them. But at least they know it was their own stupid fault, and at least they're doing it for an understandable reason. Not justifiable, but understandable.

Seems like crime is an epidemic in the US - The US has 5 percent of the world's population, but 25 percent of its prisoners. But as long as you understand their reasons...


Yes, lets worry about those scary Muslims because it's not like we have more pressing problems in the US.

Unless you lost someone you know to the 9/11 attack I'm betting you would be hard pressed to think of anyway that terrorism hurt anyone you know... ever. Gee those Muslims are really screwing up the world.

I've personally had murder, rape, domestic abuse, theft and gang violence affect my life either directly or to someone close to me. I've never once had terrorism come close to hurting me or anyone I know.

But then religion becomes their wheelchair(as I am fond of saying), which makes them easy to be led around by anyone who claims to be their connection to God. Another thing about most people is that they don't feel secure with sitting in their wheelchair looking at all the other people in their wheelchairs: they think the others might have a viable source of attaining eternal life or some such crap, so they seek to destroy their opponents. It's kinda like not letting anyone have it because they can't have it. Those "needs" to which I refer are the psychological/emotional needs humans have. They can be fulfilled by mankind and the understanding that one cannot understand anything beyond mankind. I did not intend to refer to monotheism in particular, but rather to all organized religions. Whatever good and evil are, religion is still an essential component to making good men commit evil deeds. Oh, and you forgot Zoroastrianism.:p

I did forget Zoroastrianism, but they have hardly any (only like 40,000) followers left and they don't even accept converts let alone aggressively attempt to attain them. Religion does make some people easier to lead around but those people are easy to lead around anyways (and people who are naturally followers should remain followers just as those who are naturally leaders should lead). The aggression that some people have towards people of other religions is not jealousy that they might have a path that they don't (I've never met anyone who adhered to a religion who was worried that someone elses was the right one) but rather a desire to convert others to their own. This need to convert others is really limited to Christianity and Islam. Many people will never accept that they cannot understand anything beyond mankind (and taking that literally it is clearly not true); there is nothing wrong in some harmless, let alone useful, fantasy. The thing about good and evil is that if you remove an objective judge, metaphysical absolutes, and/or karma they are made entirely relative. I strongly disagree that you can say that religion is an essential component to making "good" men perform "evil" deeds. Doing so is just applying your subjective conception of good and evil onto those following a different subjective conception.

Every time you post you hightlight more of the problems I have with organized religion. Faith? More security blanket stuff. You accept some hole ridden version of how reality is put together, it involves some quasi patriarcial omniparient overseer and a set of writings that are "his word" (nevermind that he never actually speaks to anyone besides those that recorded "his word") and suddenly you're a better person for it? It makes you care? Most of the time I see it making people not care. They care less about what happens to them and the world around them because they have this bullshit notion that some paradise awaits them because of their 'faith'.

I look out at the cosmos and acknowledge that I know jack about it. I don't know why I'm here or if my life has any meaning. If there is a unifying plan or design to the structure of life I'm certain that it's beyond the grasp of human comprehension. I figure that when I die that's probably it, no pearly gates or fiery depths, my physical being will be recycled and life on this planet will continue without me.

But I have no fear of it. I don't let it consume me or drive me to grasping at the straws that are religion hoping to somehow cheat the inevitable.

But I figure that living my life the best I can, trying to improve the world I live in and try to change things for the better is the best way to live my life. If I do have a part in a greater plan then I'm pretty sure that's it. If not, well at least the world won't be worse for me having lived.

Such noble notions. It's rather refreshing actually. But I don't think it's just the physical remains that are recycled but also the spiritual energy that is dispersed and reconstitued into a new form.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy196.html

http://www.polygamyinfo.com/sects-FLDS.htm

Sounds like another Jonestown/Waco explosion waiting to happen.


Polygamy? Sign me up!

snipWow, good rant here. Good thing you named K-P and Canada City, K-P is just a racist idiot and Canada City... well... he's not really a Canadian.

Polygamy? Sign me up!

Sure, if you want to enjoy conjugal bliss with underaged girls.

:p

Sure, if you want to enjoy conjugal bliss with underaged girls.

:p

Damn, way to ruin my fantasy G.

Well if it was legal, apparently my fiancee would be okay with me marrying her best friend too. :D

Gee, funny how it only applies when it affects you and not when it affects us hmm?

Still waiting for that clairfication.

I did forget Zoroastrianism, but they have hardly any (only like 40,000) followers left and they don't even accept converts let alone aggressively attempt to attain them. Religion does make some people easier to lead around but those people are easy to lead around anyways (and people who are naturally followers should remain followers just as those who are naturally leaders should lead). The aggression that some people have towards people of other religions is not jealousy that they might have a path that they don't (I've never met anyone who adhered to a religion who was worried that someone elses was the right one) but rather a desire to convert others to their own. This need to convert others is really limited to Christianity and Islam. Many people will never accept that they cannot understand anything beyond mankind (and taking that literally it is clearly not true); there is nothing wrong in some harmless, let alone useful, fantasy. The thing about good and evil is that if you remove an objective judge, metaphysical absolutes, and/or karma they are made entirely relative. I strongly disagree that you can say that religion is an essential component to making "good" men perform "evil" deeds. Doing so is just applying your subjective conception of good and evil onto those following a different subjective conception.
I know; I didn't really mean that to be a serious exclusion. But that's the thing, some of the leader-material get sucked into a follower position, which is where part of the panic and confusion I mentioned comes from. Of course no one would admit it if they felt their religion might be wrong; that would put them right back where they started, in confused terror at their lack of understanding of the meaning of life which they covered up with the security blanket that is their religion. I know there is nothing wrong with a little fantasy, but too many people take a little fantasy way too far with literal attachments. I did mean good men doing evil deeds in a general capacity and in the sense that the deeds are more objectively evil rather than religiously evil. Even so, the concepts of good and evil are still relative and very subjective. So the idea of religion being the primary justification for the evil deeds of many good men who do evil deeds isn't quite so ludicrous as you make it sound. Frankly, I find it a little too easy to say that, but the man has a point. This is normally the point where I bring up a better quote, but a paraphrase shall make do: "No one who is evil chooses to be evil; he simply confuses it[evil] for happiness." Something like that. While it may not be universally true, it is certainly a valid concept.

Damn, way to ruin my fantasy G.

Well if it was legal, apparently my fiancee would be okay with me marrying her best friend too. :D

Multi-party consentual legal-age polygamy doesn't stir any outrage or nausea in me.

But the Colorado City nutjobs are sick freaks whose self-appointed prophet picks child brides for their older male members that makes Anna-Nichole Smith's relationship with Whatshisname look like the Cleavers in comparison.

*waits for death threats and hate letters*

I'll kill you.

Ya feel better now?

I'll kill you.

Ya feel better now?

Yes, because now I can sue you and win millions! :D

I'll kill you.

Ya feel better now?
I don't know about him(her), but I certainly feel better. Phew!:D

I don't know about him(her), but certainly feel better. Phew!:D

Nice to see that some people want me dead lol.

I think we shouldn't worry about it because one of the following is true:
1. No religion leads to salvation (and thus it is pointless to worry about it)
2. All religions lead to salvation (and thus it is pointless to worry about it as long as you find some religion).
3. Only one religion leads to salvation (worth worrying about but how do you know which religion is the right one?)

I think the first possibility is the most likely and I'm willing to stake my soul (if I have one) on it. If the third possibility is true, as you believe, what makes you certain that Christianity is the right one?

Someone brought this up to me once before on a debate a long time ago, (and im glad they did, I guess what I was saying wasn't terribly clear at first on this.) evangelism isn't supposed to be broken down to Pascal's wager where all the options have an equal chance of being true, you have to show how what your saying makes sense and that other options, simply put, don't, Jesus did not instruct us to inform the masses on statistical probabilities to bring people to Christ. Now, the reason I think Christianity is the right religion is because, well, I was born again :/. I mean at this point, I can't just snub God after I was fundamentally and radically changed in just about an instant by faith in Christ. I mean, it's one thing to believe that, say, a calculator will give you the correct answer to something that the fundamental principles it works on insist on what the correct answer is, it's quite another to actually see that answer come to reality. Of course, im not saying that Christianity is at its core an example of a calculator spewing out the right answer, but then, I was never good at inventing metaphors anyway :/.

But looking at it from an outsiders perspective, God has to exist outside the universe if He has infinite...well...anything, and the Bible affirms that this is true. (See, some Atheists aren't always wrong about what God has to be in order to exist! :) ) Nextly, God is infinitly just. This means that if He judged any person, since we are all imperfect in one way or another, we would have to be judged guilty, ratio of goodness to badness becomes irrelevant. Therefore, if God is also infinitly loving, there's no reason that He would not give us a way that we could be forgiven of these sins, and since He is still infinitly just, the judgement on those sins first has to come off on something before anyone can be righteously forgiven. The only way to actually judge something with an infinitly just standard is to apply infinitly powerful justice to it, so the only way to make that work is if the force your judging can withstand such punishment. This means the only force that can withstand infinitly powerful punishment is something else that is infinitly powerful, leaving us with the only option of....God. Jesus was God, and the Bible says that He took the price for our sins for whoever will believe in Him, after all, He can't just go around with a mental SWAT team and force everyone to believe in Him without not really giving people the chance to actually believe. Many religions either deny Christ's divinity or get really technical and metaphorical with it or change the definitions of divine based on humanistic interpretations of infinitly large qualities, so we can know that at best their wrong for obscurity, and at worst their wrong for not making sense fundamentally....except for Christianity. I could go on like this all day about why I personally believe, but then i'd probably get too off-track, you see what im saying anyway, right?

Multi-party consentual legal-age polygamy doesn't stir any outrage or nausea in me.

But the Colorado City nutjobs are sick freaks whose self-appointed prophet picks child brides for their older male members that makes Anna-Nichole Smith's relationship with Whatshisname look like the Cleavers in comparison.

Yeah, I've been following the story slightly. I feel bad for anyone growing up in that environment. Some sick old men lay claim to 12 year-old girls and they have so much power in town (over the cops as well) that noone can say anything or else they are kicked out of town (and they have like a 5th grade education at most).

I know; I didn't really mean that to be a serious exclusion. But that's the thing, some of the leader-material get sucked into a follower position, which is where part of the panic and confusion I mentioned comes from. Of course no one would admit it if they felt their religion might be wrong; that would put them right back where they started, in confused terror at their lack of understanding of the meaning of life which they covered up with the security blanket that is their religion. I know there is nothing wrong with a little fantasy, but too many people take a little fantasy way too far with literal attachments. I did mean good men doing evil deeds in a general capacity and in the sense that the deeds are more objectively evil rather than religiously evil. Even so, the concepts of good and evil are still relative and very subjective. So the idea of religion being the primary justification for the evil deeds of many good men who do evil deeds isn't quite so ludicrous as you make it sound. Frankly, I find it a little too easy to say that, but the man has a point. This is normally the point where I bring up a better quote, but a paraphrase shall make do: "No one who is evil chooses to be evil; he simply confuses it[evil] for happiness." Something like that. While it may not be universally true, it is certainly a valid concept.

I know what quote you are talking about (though I can't remember the exact words) but it was written by Plato and attributed to Socrates. Essentially saying that no one does anything they believe to be evil. However, Plato/Socrates believed in an objective, metaphysical good and evil. Strip away metaphysics and religion and there is no objective good and evil. I see nothing wrong with people having a security blanket. There are those who will take their fantasies too far; and that is why I'd prefer them not to be part of an Abrahamic religion since those are the ones most likely to lead to problems in that situation.

I have yet to find a single example of a contradiction that I haven't seen a perfectly reasonable explanation for,

I've seen reasonable explainations and contribed explainations. Gleason L Archer does a wonderful job of contribing explainations.

That is I why I prefer to judge the text more topicaly.

I think the show me methodology ( As in bring me the snake with the voice box ) is the best way to examine biblical text as apart from seeing if you can contribe an explaination for a Bible contraditiction and or fallacy.

Nice to see that some people want me dead lol.
I don't really want you dead. Well, not you specifically. :p

Every time you post you hightlight more of the problems I have with organized religion. Faith? More security blanket stuff. You accept some hole ridden version of how reality is put together, it involves some quasi patriarcial omniparient overseer and a set of writings that are "his word" (nevermind that he never actually speaks to anyone besides those that recorded "his word") and suddenly you're a better person for it? It makes you care? Most of the time I see it making people not care. They care less about what happens to them and the world around them because they have this bullshit notion that some paradise awaits them because of their 'faith'.

I look out at the cosmos and acknowledge that I know jack about it. I don't know why I'm here or if my life has any meaning. If there is a unifying plan or design to the structure of life I'm certain that it's beyond the grasp of human comprehension. I figure that when I die that's probably it, no pearly gates or fiery depths, my physical being will be recycled and life on this planet will continue without me.

But I have no fear of it. I don't let it consume me or drive me to grasping at the straws that are religion hoping to somehow cheat the inevitable.

But I figure that living my life the best I can, trying to improve the world I live in and try to change things for the better is the best way to live my life. If I do have a part in a greater plan then I'm pretty sure that's it. If not, well at least the world won't be worse for me having lived.

I don't see how this attacks Christianity, the Bible is quite clear that through faith in Christ we are assured of salvation, fear should never enter the picture when your a Christian. I know quite clearly that what you saying does, sadly, apply not to just to other religions but many churches who wish to water down the message of the Gospel to gain a greater appeal for the masses, but it's not really the Gospel is what im trying to say, this isn't compleatly about gaining fluffy pillows of love type happiness on earth nor is it about how God can make us all contribute to a better world, it's about saving people's souls :/.

Yeah, I've been following the story slightly. I feel bad for anyone growing up in that environment. Some sick old men lay claim to 12 year-old girls and they have so much power in town (over the cops as well) that noone can say anything or else they are kicked out of town (and they have like a 5th grade education at most).

Basically they're what happens if the Westborough Baptist Church somehow grew like a tumor to engulf an entire Kansas town or two.

I've seen reasonable explainations and contribed explainations. Gleason L Archer does a wonderful job of contribing explainations.

That is I why I prefer to judge the text more topicaly.

I think the show me methodology ( As in bring me the snake with the voice box ) is the best way to examine biblical text as apart from seeing if you can contribe an explaination for a Bible contraditiction and or fallacy.

Don't get me wrong, in looking up answers to "contradictions", i've come across 1 or 2 explanations that didn't make any sense me, so I then either kept looking or used my brain myself to think up a good answer, (I find thinking to be a very useful skill in evangelism personally.) but anyway, you do have a point that taking time to answer every supposed contradiction or supposed fallacy in the Bible isn't a necessarily effective way to evangelise, it's why I generally try to avoid getting into such arguments, at the end of the day, what do they prove?

I know what quote you are talking about (though I can't remember the exact words) but it was written by Plato and attributed to Socrates. Essentially saying that no one does anything they believe to be evil. However, Plato/Socrates believed in an objective, metaphysical good and evil. Strip away metaphysics and religion and there is no objective good and evil. I see nothing wrong with people having a security blanket. There are those who will take their fantasies too far; and that is why I'd prefer them not to be part of an Abrahamic religion since those are the ones most likely to lead to problems in that situation.
The problem with the security blanket, however, is that it literally is metaphorically(:confused: lol) the wool over their eyes. They don't always see what's really important(our time with our fellow man) but rather think some higher power should automatically make their lives perfect because he/she/it has the power to do so, which confuses them when someone dies or their spouses cheat on them or they get fired from dream-jobs. They simply cannot see the universe for what it is. To make matters worse, the people who distribute the security blankets whisper honey potion into their ears, inclining them to a mass delusion that becomes the conctrete dogma of organized religion. Of course, I realize not all of these things are universally true, but they do apply, particularly to the Abrahamic religions.

Alas, parting is such sweet sorrow, but I must depart shortly to torment myself with dreams of the Queen of Athens I cannot have. Any parting words for the day?

I don't really want you dead. Well, not you specifically. :p

Then who? lol.

Someone brought this up to me once before on a debate a long time ago, (and im glad they did, I guess what I was saying wasn't terribly clear at first on this.) evangelism isn't supposed to be broken down to Pascal's wager where all the options have an equal chance of being true, you have to show how what your saying makes sense and that other options, simply put, don't, Jesus did not instruct us to inform the masses on statistical probabilities to bring people to Christ. Now, the reason I think Christianity is the right religion is because, well, I was born again :/. I mean at this point, I can't just snub God after I was fundamentally and radically changed in just about an instant by faith in Christ. I mean, it's one thing to believe that, say, a calculator will give you the correct answer to something that the fundamental principles it works on insist on what the correct answer is, it's quite another to actually see that answer come to reality. Of course, im not saying that Christianity is at its core an example of a calculator spewing out the right answer, but then, I was never good at inventing metaphors anyway :/.

But looking at it from an outsiders perspective, God has to exist outside the universe if He has infinite...well...anything, and the Bible affirms that this is true. (See, some Atheists aren't always wrong about what God has to be in order to exist! :) ) Nextly, God is infinitly just. This means that if He judged any person, since we are all imperfect in one way or another, we would have to be judged guilty, ratio of goodness to badness becomes irrelevant. Therefore, if God is also infinitly loving, there's no reason that He would not give us a way that we could be forgiven of these sins, and since He is still infinitly just, the judgement on those sins first has to come off on something before anyone can be righteously forgiven. The only way to actually judge something with an infinitly just standard is to apply infinitly powerful justice to it, so the only way to make that work is if the force your judging can withstand such punishment. This means the only force that can withstand infinitly powerful punishment is something else that is infinitly powerful, leaving us with the only option of....God. Jesus was God, and the Bible says that He took the price for our sins for whoever will believe in Him, after all, He can't just go around with a mental SWAT team and force everyone to believe in Him without not really giving people the chance to actually believe. Many religions either deny Christ's divinity or get really technical and metaphorical with it or change the definitions of divine based on humanistic interpretations of infinitly large qualities, so we can know that at best their wrong for obscurity, and at worst their wrong for not making sense fundamentally....except for Christianity. I could go on like this all day about why I personally believe, but then i'd probably get too off-track, you see what im saying anyway, right?

Well, what I'm talking about is completely unrelated to Pascal's wager. You're equating infinite justice with infinitely high standards and infinite punishments; and that doesn't fit with most conceptions of justice (though it might have fit with the conception common to the ancient hebrews), we don't find a judge to be more just than another since he punishes everyone. Justice would indicate a punishment fitting a crime and if any deviation from infinitely high standards causes infinite punishment that would not be just (by our current conception). And if God is a God of love and mercy why did he create infinitely high standards? Of course you'll probably give the response I predicted before.

There is no reason to believe that a God of the nature you described exists or that Jesus was his son. If you want to convert someone you have to address that point. Also, people have had life changing experiences from converting to religions other than Christianity or in different ways. For example, I had a life changing spiritual experience after engaging in the Aztec sacrement of the consumption of Teonanacatl.

Basically they're what happens if the Westborough Baptist Church somehow grew like a tumor to engulf an entire Kansas town or two.

*shudders*

Someone brought this up to me once before on a debate a long time ago, (and im glad they did, I guess what I was saying wasn't terribly clear at first on this.) etc. etc.

Sorry this dosn't cut it.

All sorts of logical fallacies in there.

infinite mighty etc.

The post looks like 7th year philosophy. Much of what you suggested was unsupported. That is the main logical fallacy. Either that or you are refering to a long list of already accepted givens and I didn't get the memo.

The problem with the security blanket, however, is that it literally is metaphorically(:confused: lol) the wool over their eyes. They don't always see what's really important(our time with our fellow man) but rather think some higher power should automatically make their lives perfect because he/she/it has the power to do so, which confuses them when someone dies or their spouses cheat on them or they get fired from dream-jobs. They simply cannot see the universe for what it is. To make matters worse, the people who distribute the security blankets whisper honey potion into their ears, inclining them to a mass delusion that becomes the conctrete dogma of organized religion. Of course, I realize not all of these things are universally true, but they do apply, particularly to the Abrahamic religions.

Alas, parting is such sweet sorrow, but I must depart shortly to torment myself with dreams of the Queen of Athens I cannot have. Any parting words for the day?

Most of those problems only apply to Abrahamic religions. Neither Theraveda Buddhists or Taoists believe in a higher power (as previously stated); and Taoists don't believe in an after life. I think very few people of any religion expect their God to make their life perfect. For not seeing the universe for what it is, you think that you can? All of us are limited to the corner we stand in, and even science won't bring us to any absolute truth. So what difference does it make if people blind themselves to a truth that they can never see anyways?

I had a life changing spiritual experience after engaging in the Aztec sacrement of the consumption of Teonanacatl.

My greatest spiritual enlightenment came the moment I realised that Jesus, Mohomud, and Moses are all flaming fags.

Actually I was very relieved and found the greatest comfort in no-god.

Then who? lol.
Just take comfort in the fact that you aren't on the list....;)

Most of those problems only apply to Abrahamic religions. Neither Theraveda Buddhists or Taoists believe in a higher power (as previously stated); and Taoists don't believe in an after life. I think very few people of any religion expect their God to make their life perfect. For not seeing the universe for what it is, you think that you can? All of us are limited to the corner we stand in, and even science won't bring us to any absolute truth. So what difference does it make if people blind themselves to a truth that they can never see anyways?
To start with the end, which is also the beginning, the blindness is in that they cannot see the truth. That is to say they cannot realize their blindness, which can lead to the idea that they do have the correct truth of the universe, which is purely absurd. Generally no, not really perfect. Everything I say tends to come out as either an extreme allegory or metaphor. Really what I meant was that they expect their God to fulfill esoteric conditions, not really make their lives perfect. I do see the truth of the universe as any man can: it is not the lot of mortal man to understand the universe. After all, I never claimed to understand the universe. :\

Lo, the time of departure hastens upon me. Are you certain you have no parting words to speed me to my Queen?

To start with the end, which is also the beginning, the blindness is in that they cannot see the truth. That is to say they cannot realize their blindness, which can lead to the idea that they do have the correct truth of the universe, which is purely absurd. Generally no, not really perfect. Everything I say tends to come out as either an extreme allegory or metaphor. Really what I meant was that they expect their God to fulfill esoteric conditions, not really make their lives perfect. I do see the truth of the universe as any man can: it is not the lot of mortal man to understand the universe. After all, I never claimed to understand the universe. :\

Lo, the time of departure hastens upon me. Are you certain you have no parting words to speed to my Queen?

What's wrong with some absurdity? It makes life more interesting. Besides in most instances it doesn't matter; for example, Hindu's believe that all reality consists of the absolute reality which is Brahman and thus we are all part of a greater whole. It's somewhat absurd but it is certainly not harmful. It's better that most people don't realize their blindness since it makes it easier for them to get through day to day life. I have no parting words.

I don't see how this attacks Christianity, the Bible is quite clear that through faith in Christ we are assured of salvation, fear should never enter the picture when your a Christian. I know quite clearly that what you saying does, sadly, apply not to just to other religions but many churches who wish to water down the message of the Gospel to gain a greater appeal for the masses, but it's not really the Gospel is what im trying to say, this isn't compleatly about gaining fluffy pillows of love type happiness on earth nor is it about how God can make us all contribute to a better world, it's about saving people's souls :/.You're preoccupied with souls, an abstract that can't be proven even exists. That's your security blanket, the concept of a soul and that it's eternal is a salve on that gnawing feeling of dread that you have when you contemplate your inevitable death. You consoul yourself with the assurance that since you have "accepted Jesus" your soul will allow you to exist beyond your death.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Jesus had in mind when he was preaching, for people to get hung up on the promise of salvation. It makes it easier to slide through life accepting the inequities and ignoring the wrongs with that warm fuzzy feeling that you have eternal life to look forward to, all you have to do is wait it out.

Life shouldn't be lived like it's something to suffer through until you get your eternal reward. It should be lived like every moment counts, every moment defines who you are, every action is a measure of your worth.

If I live my life like that and it turns out that there is a heaven and some TV evangelist gets in and I don't because he "accepted Jesus" and I didn't, well lets just say I wouldn't want to exist in such a place anyways ...

What's wrong with some absurdity? It makes life more interesting. Besides in most instances it doesn't matter; for example, Hindu's believe that all reality consists of the absolute reality which is Brahman and thus we are all part of a greater whole. It's somewhat absurd but it is certainly not harmful. It's better that most people don't realize their blindness since it makes it easier for them to get through day to day life. I have no parting words.
I didn't mean that kind of absurdity; the absurdity I intended is one of profound impossibility, not one of fanciful notions, which are perfectly acceptable in moderate doses. I share to some small extent the Hindu belief that we are all part of a greater whole, but the whole is simply energy, not some omnipresent divine being. I don't find their belief absurd, for it is certainly possible that they could be right. I don't think it is better because it can make the very same day-to-day living of others complete misery, which is what my points have been slowly working toward and always through. If they realized that they could understand nothing of the universe, perhaps they would show more compassion for their fellow man rather than righteous indignation at other religious groups, perhaps they would be more willing to enjoy the diversities of mankind rather than suppress and destroy them. I think ignorance is the persistant endeavor to survive purely on obstinate weakness instead of embracing the enlightenment that comes with diverse experiences.

You're preoccupied with souls, an abstract that can't be proven even exists. That's your security blanket, the concept of a soul and that it's eternal is a salve on that gnawing feeling of dread that you have when you contemplate your inevitable death. You consoul yourself with the assurance that since you have "accepted Jesus" your soul will allow you to exist beyond your death.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Jesus had in mind when he was preaching, for people to get hung up on the promise of salvation. It makes it easier to slide through life accepting the inequities and ignoring the wrongs with that warm fuzzy feeling that you have eternal life to look forward to, all you have to do is wait it out.

Life shouldn't be lived like it's something to suffer through until you get your eternal reward. It should be lived like every moment counts, every moment defines who you are, every action is a measure of your worth.

If I live my life like that and it turns out that there is a heaven and some TV evangelist gets in and I don't because he "accepted Jesus" and I didn't, well lets just say I wouldn't want to exist in such a place anyways ...
See! That's what I was talking about earlier...kinda. The world of man should be the concern of man, not the world of God.

And now the hour is at hand. Wish me a fond farewell, if you please, and curse my Athenian Queen who has me captivated so....On second thought, no don't curse her....wait....doh! so confused!:confused: :( :confused:
At any rate, I depart such splendid company as ever a man should want. I bid you for a time farewell.

I got no beefs with Buddhism or Taoism.

But Hindu's have a bit of explaining to do with that whole caste system thing before they get off my list.

What explanation you want?

That caste has no scriptural sanction in any of the bonafide hindu scriptures of the Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, the Gita etc ?

Caste is a community identification. It was prevalent in all pre-industrial societies. How is the idea of one being born into a social position and marrying amongst themselves in the hindu caste system different from the lords of feudal setups being born into lordship and discriminating against the commoners ?

It is a societal issue. Many reformists of the hindu renaissance have pointedly denounced casteism and empty ritualism. You might want to look up Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj, ISKCON and other vaishnava movements. ISKCON is as vedic as it can get and they have priests of all colors and races from all over the world.

As industrialisation spreads, casteism will gradually disappear. Already caste based discrimination is almost absent in the industrialised urban areas (due to mobility offered by industrialised settings).

What explanation you want?

That caste has no scriptural sanction in any of the bonafide hindu scriptures of the Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, the Gita etc ?

Caste is a community identification. It was prevalent in all pre-industrial societies. How is the idea of one being born into a social position and marrying amongst themselves in the hindu caste system different from the lords of feudal setups being born into lordship and discriminating against the commoners ?

It is a societal issue. Many reformists of the hindu renaissance have pointedly denounced casteism and empty ritualism. You might want to look up Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj, ISKCON and other vaishnava movements. ISKCON is as vedic as it can get and they have priests of all colors and races from all over the world.

As industrialisation spreads, casteism will gradually disappear. Already caste based discrimination is almost absent in the industrialised urban areas (due to mobility offered by industrialised settings).

Yeah, from what I've learnt about the French Revolution, feudalism was pretty much a less strict version of the caste system.

Snip

Eh. At least it's shown you you're superior to all those people. Theirs are simple minds, driven by instinctive fear and apparently incapable of complex, rational thought. Anyone who tries to simplify the complexities of reality to cram stuff into simplistic generalisations is merely displaying their lack of intelligence.

Also note that there are 15 less christians in Nigeria right now thanks to muslim rioting. you may not be the problem...but since you are part of the greater whole of people who identify themselves as muslim, you need to start leading by example so that others don't continue to soil your religion. Don't get me wrong I don't hate muslims, I hate people who take religious beliefs to the extreme.

I'm sorry, but there are 15 less human beings in Nigeria today thanks to human rioting. You may not be part of the problem ... but since are parot of the greater whole of people who identify themselves as human, you need to start leading by example so that other don't continue to soil your species. Don't get me wrong. I don't hate humans. I hate humans that take beliefs to the extreme.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Jesus had in mind when he was preaching, for people to get hung up on the promise of salvation. It makes it easier to slide through life accepting the inequities and ignoring the wrongs with that warm fuzzy feeling that you have eternal life to look forward to, all you have to do is wait it out.


That's probably one of the most intelligent things that have ever been written in these fora. Well done.

link?

It is true that genocide against Mayan Indians by Christians has continued in Gautemala.

HEre are some weak links.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/americas/guatemala/

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/montt.html

and pray tell how should I do that? By sticking my head in the sand? By denying what is written in the text that my religion, my faith is built on?

Also, I do pratice what I preach. I preach love, understanding, and treating your fellow man as you would treat yourself. I help my fellow man, I give my guidance to those who need it, I give my food to the poor and those who are hungry, and I look out for my family and friends.

Funny how you are all full of charity, love, and understanding. .... but not as you were quoted in the OP.

. Don't get me wrong. I don't hate humans. I hate humans that take beliefs to the extreme.

I bow to your statement. even though I will kill to preserve my life and those I love. I do agree that generally killing is wrong

I bow to your statement. even though I will kill to preserve my life and those I love. I do agree that generally killing is wrong

Agreed.

I'm sorry, but there are 15 less human beings in Nigeria today thanks to human rioting. You may not be part of the problem ... but since are parot of the greater whole of people who identify themselves as human, you need to start leading by example so that other don't continue to soil your species. Don't get me wrong. I don't hate humans. I hate humans that take beliefs to the extreme.
THANK YOU. and I couldn't agree with you more (okay, so right now I hate humans...but that will pass and I'll go back to hating humans who are willing to kill and die for stupid reasons.)

First of all, what the flying fuck have I done to get this done to me?

I'm just a 15 year old half-Hispanic, half-Indian Muslim in the 10th grade, born and raised in California.

In General, in the streets, in school, and in the world, asshattery like this has been growing so goddamn fast because some fucking idiots decide to demand blood for a cartoon.

Well guess fucking what?

I'm not only a better person than you'll obviously ever become, but I'm NOT the equivelent to a retard running around blowing himself up and claiming to be a good Muslim!

Kids at school are coming to me and expecting to be an apologist for the people rioting over the "cartoons." I blame every single idiotic fool to condemns Islam and who doesn't take 10 seconds out of their day to learn a little.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.



Yes, you're justified. No, not all Muslims are alike. But some parts of the world are full of people who believe that non-believers had better get with dhimmitude or die.

While I don't advocate genocide (as some believe I do), if the situation gets any worse, and human nature being what it is, there will be war and genocide and an end to all things.

Unfortunately, the West has all the military cards, and there have already been public pronouncements on what will be done in the end (such as the Pentagon announcement about using submarine launched ballistic missiles on Iran).

First of all, what the flying fuck have I done to get this done to me?

I'm just a 15 year old half-Hispanic, half-Indian Muslim in the 10th grade, born and raised in California.

In General, in the streets, in school, and in the world, asshattery like this has been growing so goddamn fast because some fucking idiots decide to demand blood for a cartoon.

Well guess fucking what?

I'm not only a better person than you'll obviously ever become, but I'm NOT the equivelent to a retard running around blowing himself up and claiming to be a good Muslim!

Kids at school are coming to me and expecting to be an apologist for the people rioting over the "cartoons." I blame every single idiotic fool to condemns Islam and who doesn't take 10 seconds out of their day to learn a little.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.

Not really. If your religion can dish insults, why can it not take them.
You can argue you personally don't believe in what the majority says, but you're still gonna be painted the same colour.

If you hate the US so much move here to the UK. You get free benefits, healthcare, we ignore your crimes, and you can attack anyone you want and walk ouit of court with compensation.

So in total. You're not justified. Stay where you are. Let's get a new government. And mines a triple whisky on the rocks.

Clear?

First Calm down....
First of all, what the flying fuck have I done to get this done to me?it wasn't done to you. no where is your name mentioned.

I'm just a 15 year old half-Hispanic, half-Indian Muslim in the 10th grade, born and raised in California.Greetings from Hawaii :D In General, in the streets, in school, and in the world, asshattery like this has been growing so goddamn fast because some fucking idiots decide to demand blood for a cartoon.So now you know why Islam is getting such commentary. :rolleyes:

Well guess fucking what?

I'm not only a better person than you'll obviously ever become, but I'm NOT the equivelent to a retard running around blowing himself up and claiming to be a good Muslim!casting judgement on others while hating judgement being cast on yourself? nice.

Kids at school are coming to me and expecting to be an apologist for the people rioting over the "cartoons." I blame every single idiotic fool to condemns Islam and who doesn't take 10 seconds out of their day to learn a little.and at the same time, others are calling all Christians to apologize for every remark every fundie makes. you don't see me getting my fur in a bunch.

Jesus fucking Christ.you want others to respect your religion. start by respection the religions of others.

Anyway, thoughts? Am I not justified in my outburst? I cannot exactly flame anyone, and I don't have Keruvalia's sainthood and infinate patience.and no one really expects you to have Keruvalia's sainthood and (not quite) infinite Patience. but taking all potshots against Muslims or islam personally will only give you High Blood Pressure. Just make your posistion known and ignore the Trollers and Master [flame]baiters. ;)

Not really. If your religion can dish insults, why can it not take them.
I agree. But the origional generalisations were, in my opinion, quite insulting. Very insulting. I assume Colodia isn't a terrorist, so why should he be generalised as one?

I get pissed off when people down south (where I now live) treat Scotland like some dump (I was born in Edinburgh). What people come out with is insulting and borderline xenophobic. If I get pissed off with being generalised as a benefit cheat or being from a barbarian wasteland, I think being generalised as a terrorist is an even better reason.

You can argue you personally don't believe in what the majority says, but you're still gonna be painted the same colour.

Does that make it right or acceptable? No.

If you hate the US so much move here to the UK. You get free benefits, healthcare, we ignore your crimes, and you can attack anyone you want and walk ouit of court with compensation.

So in total. You're not justified. Stay where you are. Let's get a new government. And mines a triple whisky on the rocks.

Clear?

Verbal (albeit written) diarrhoea. Worse, it's irrelevant diarrhoea. 'Your' crimes? Just what has Colodia done, exactly? I like to take potshots at our (irritating, right-wing and useless) government as much as the next man - but what where does that become relevant? Perhaps Colondia might not count for benefits. Perhaps his parents can afford private healthcare. Generalising again?

Not really. If your religion can dish insults, why can it not take them.
You can argue you personally don't believe in what the majority says, but you're still gonna be painted the same colour.

If you hate the US so much move here to the UK. You get free benefits, healthcare, we ignore your crimes, and you can attack anyone you want and walk ouit of court with compensation.

So in total. You're not justified. Stay where you are. Let's get a new government. And mines a triple whisky on the rocks.

Clear?
It isn't a "religion" dishing and taking insults. It is a person. A singular person of which one insignificant part of defines itself as "Muslim", when, in reality, that only forms a tiny part of who he is. Humans are human first. The rest is incidential.

Funny how you are all full of charity, love, and understanding. .... but not as you were quoted in the OP.

You do realize that just because I am full of love and understanding, doesn't mean I'll just lie to someone because they'll be offended by what I say.

Someone brought this up to me once before on a debate a long time ago, (and im glad they did, I guess what I was saying wasn't terribly clear at first on this.) evangelism isn't supposed to be broken down to Pascal's wager where all the options have an equal chance of being true, you have to show how what your saying makes sense and that other options, simply put, don't, Jesus did not instruct us to inform the masses on statistical probabilities to bring people to Christ. Now, the reason I think Christianity is the right religion is because, well, I was born again :/. I mean at this point, I can't just snub God after I was fundamentally and radically changed in just about an instant by faith in Christ. I mean, it's one thing to believe that, say, a calculator will give you the correct answer to something that the fundamental principles it works on insist on what the correct answer is, it's quite another to actually see that answer come to reality. Of course, im not saying that Christianity is at its core an example of a calculator spewing out the right answer, but then, I was never good at inventing metaphors anyway :/.

But looking at it from an outsiders perspective, God has to exist outside the universe if He has infinite...well...anything, and the Bible affirms that this is true. (See, some Atheists aren't always wrong about what God has to be in order to exist! :) ) Nextly, God is infinitly just. This means that if He judged any person, since we are all imperfect in one way or another, we would have to be judged guilty, ratio of goodness to badness becomes irrelevant. Therefore, if God is also infinitly loving, there's no reason that He would not give us a way that we could be forgiven of these sins, and since He is still infinitly just, the judgement on those sins first has to come off on something before anyone can be righteously forgiven. The only way to actually judge something with an infinitly just standard is to apply infinitly powerful justice to it, so the only way to make that work is if the force your judging can withstand such punishment. This means the only force that can withstand infinitly powerful punishment is something else that is infinitly powerful, leaving us with the only option of....God. Jesus was God, and the Bible says that He took the price for our sins for whoever will believe in Him, after all, He can't just go around with a mental SWAT team and force everyone to believe in Him without not really giving people the chance to actually believe. Many religions either deny Christ's divinity or get really technical and metaphorical with it or change the definitions of divine based on humanistic interpretations of infinitly large qualities, so we can know that at best their wrong for obscurity, and at worst their wrong for not making sense fundamentally....except for Christianity. I could go on like this all day about why I personally believe, but then i'd probably get too off-track, you see what im saying anyway, right?

So in other words 'If Christian Theolgy is right then only Christianity makes sense'? You're right my friend, that isn't Pascal's wager, it's circular logic.

Well, what I'm talking about is completely unrelated to Pascal's wager. You're equating infinite justice with infinitely high standards and infinite punishments; and that doesn't fit with most conceptions of justice (though it might have fit with the conception common to the ancient hebrews), we don't find a judge to be more just than another since he punishes everyone. Justice would indicate a punishment fitting a crime and if any deviation from infinitely high standards causes infinite punishment that would not be just (by our current conception). And if God is a God of love and mercy why did he create infinitely high standards? Of course you'll probably give the response I predicted before.

There is no reason to believe that a God of the nature you described exists or that Jesus was his son. If you want to convert someone you have to address that point. Also, people have had life changing experiences from converting to religions other than Christianity or in different ways. For example, I had a life changing spiritual experience after engaging in the Aztec sacrement of the consumption of Teonanacatl.

And here's the problem with many arguments against infinite, well, anything, we cannot get to a point as limited beings where we can apply infinite justice, because we personally are not capable of applying it. You can't, say, compare it to justice that we know and say that because we are super good judges, that nothing can judge better than us, mankind's standards simply do not go up to that level, and aren't so highly prized that they must over-ride any attempts to agree with, say, a being of infinite justice. And to compare with this situation metaphorically, we did not need to know in the past exactly how the sun operated to know that it generates heat, and technically speaking, we don't need to know now in order for it to generate heat, it continues to generate heat regardless of how much we know about it. (Or think we know) The point is, our standards of justice cannot actually become infinitly just, it's God's standard that matters, because only He is capable of applying it, yet we do not need to understand it compleatly to know that God is infinitly just. You raise a good point that we can't really see infinite justice as just first-hand, because we cannot literally comphrehend the badness of things on an infinite level, but because God is infinitly good, He must apply both infinite love and infinite justice, there can be no sacrifices of one for the other. Some things that we might think of as infinitly loving could easily be horribly evil in God's eyes, because God looks at everything with infinite standards in mind. If God had left these high standards alone and let everyone get sent to Hell, you'd have a great point, why would He make a standard of infinite justice if He is infinitly loving yet would have to send people to Hell anyway? That's what the Gospel is about. Without the Gospel, and God clearly showing that He is infinitly loving, this all would be extremely suspect. And yet, Jesus did come, and exibited God's infinite love by paying the infinitly large price for our sins, for all who will accept it by believing in Him. Therefore, both the infinite justice of God and the infinite love of God have been exibited, I see no problem here.

On the second thing, I know what you mean about how many things can change people on a great level, but I was asked to describe why I believe in God, so I gave the answer as best I could describe it :/. Technically speaking, I can't literally describe it compleatly, first because the Bible says I can't, and secondly because it really was too deep to totally explain, I just thought i'd throw it out there, it's not too important, and technically I can't prove it to anyone else anyway.

But some parts of the world are full of people who believe that non-believers had better get with dhimmitude or die.


Don't totally agree with that. I lived in saudi arabia many years, and not one time did anyone say anything to me about having to become muslim or not being worthy of living because i don't 'believe' (for that matter, i don't specificly believe in anything). I don't think that religion-wise there are many countries that are more strict than saudi arabia

Jesus fucking Christ.
you want others to respect your religion. start by respection the religions of others.Musilms believe in Jesus too, you know. But come on everyone, lets be reasonable, yes, many Muslims want to kill loads of people. So do loads of chritians. And Sikhs. And hindus. There are people in every religion who want to kill people. But remember, while these extremists kill people and grab all of the attention, most of the people who follow the religion are actually good people.

It isn't a "religion" dishing and taking insults. It is a person. A singular person of which one insignificant part of defines itself as "Muslim", when, in reality, that only forms a tiny part of who he is. Humans are human first. The rest is incidential.
Meh. You say po-ta-ta I say po-ta-to

Meh. You say po-ta-ta I say po-ta-to

How many times? It is only a minority. A vocal and violent one, but a minority only. Why can't you understand that?

Humans are human first. The rest is incidential.

Lol, if only Socrates said that. . .

Musilms believe in Jesus too, you know. Not really, to Islam, if you go by what was said in another thread, Jesus was a Prophet that "Corrupted" the visions given to him by Allah. thus Christians follow the corrupted word and Jesus is not worshipped.But come on everyone, lets be reasonable, yes, many Muslims want to kill loads of people. So do loads of chritians. And Sikhs. And hindus. There are people in every religion who want to kill people. But remember, while these extremists kill people and grab all of the attention, most of the people who follow the religion are actually good people.and that is what I've been trying to tell Colodia. if you are truely not with those extremists, then speak out against them. if all of the other muslims speak out against those extemists, even taking action against what they're doing. (ordering a Danish Pastry and not a Rose of the Prophet [or whatever they're calling them now]) and not just waiting for some elder to make a declaration, then people will see another side of Islam that will support the "Religion of Peace."

If I were Colodia, Don't apologise for those extemist, but speak out against what they are doing. quote scripture or verses from the koran that goes against what they are doing.

How many times? It is only a minority. A vocal and violent one, but a minority only. Why can't you understand that?
I comprehend that it is a vocal and violent minority. But maybe if they stopped painting everybody else as the same, maybe we'd stop it too.

I comprehend that it is a vocal and violent minority. But maybe if they stopped painting everybody else as the same, maybe we'd stop it too.

Who is 'They'? The only people doing that are the media in most countries and certain racist and xenophobics who hate Islam, as well as the fanatics themselves.

You're preoccupied with souls, an abstract that can't be proven even exists. That's your security blanket, the concept of a soul and that it's eternal is a salve on that gnawing feeling of dread that you have when you contemplate your inevitable death. You consoul yourself with the assurance that since you have "accepted Jesus" your soul will allow you to exist beyond your death.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Jesus had in mind when he was preaching, for people to get hung up on the promise of salvation. It makes it easier to slide through life accepting the inequities and ignoring the wrongs with that warm fuzzy feeling that you have eternal life to look forward to, all you have to do is wait it out.

Life shouldn't be lived like it's something to suffer through until you get your eternal reward. It should be lived like every moment counts, every moment defines who you are, every action is a measure of your worth.

If I live my life like that and it turns out that there is a heaven and some TV evangelist gets in and I don't because he "accepted Jesus" and I didn't, well lets just say I wouldn't want to exist in such a place anyways ...

I've tried to point this out before, but you and I are in agreement sir, Jesus did not come to preach only a message of peace, joy, happiness, and a rich and fulfilling life. Quite the contrary, He said that those who believe in Him will be persecuted for their faith, that the possibility of a rich man entering heaven is as possible as a camel fitting through the eye of a needle, and that through being born again of the spirit you would recieve everlasting life. It's not about how fuzzy and wunderful we can make our lives here, it's about saving our souls and gaining everlasting life in heaven, but in the meantime, peace on earth isn't the objective, if you ever read the book of revelations, you'll get a very good sense of that alright. Also, Jesus tells us not to spend time mourning for those who are dead or worrying over death, quite the contrary, He said that we should not stay behind if, for example, we have to bury our dad or something. Worry is not the objective, Matthew 6:25-34 says its not the objective, living life with the goal of suffering is not the objective since you can achieve suffering in life while not evangelising, I see no problem here. Though, I can fully understand and appreciate why you'd feel that Christianity does come across with the objective of either suffering or peaceful fluffy pillows of love type feelings, I have to be on guard against some televangelists myself, sometimes i'll hear them say something and i'll go "Eww, read the Bible instead of making stuff up, time to turn the channel.".

Who is 'They'? The only people doing that are the media in most countries and certain racist and xenophobics who hate Islam, as well as the fanatics themselves.

They=Muslims

Me=Majority of NS against me

Musilms believe in Jesus too, you know.Not really, to Islam, if you go by what was said in another thread, Jesus was a Prophet that "Corrupted" the visions given to him by Allah. thus Christians follow the corrupted word and Jesus is not worshipped.
Not so. However said that was a liar (or just guessed wrongly.) Here is what the nigh-on-infallible wikipedia has to say:
In Islam, Jesus (called Isa) is considered one of God's most beloved and important prophets, a bringer of divine scripture, and also the Messiah. Muslims, however, do not share the Christian belief in the crucifixion or divinity of Jesus. Islam teaches that Jesus is alive in heaven and will return to the earth as Messiah in the company of the Mahdi once it has become full of sin and injustice. Muslims, also do not believe in the Christian Trinity, stating that God and Jesus are one, much like in Oneness Christianity.

They=Muslims

Me=Majority of NS against me

Okay...how are Muslims painting everyone the same?

Not so. However said that was a liar (or just guessed wrongly.) Here is what the nigh-on-infallible wikipedia has to say:
Musilms believe in Jesus too, you know.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=467037 But not in the same manner. to the Muslims, Jesus is and was nothing more than a prophet. (please correct me if I'm wrong on this.) but in Christianity, he is the son of God. didn't see any differing opinions in the stated thread.

And while I do hold Wikipedia as a great source, I would rather hear that from the Muslims/Islamic Faith here on NS.

Meh. You say po-ta-ta I say po-ta-to
no, I'd say we're saying completely different things here. Not saying the same thing different ways. You said that muslims should all have to deal with being treated like shit because of a minority of the followers. I said every person should be judged based on the full content of who they are, not because they happen to call themselves something.

Boy, are all those terrorists who thought they were going to get 72 virgins by killing themselves, and or other people going to be surprised. The look on their faces as they try to justify themselves to God will be priceless.The realization that they nothing more than murderers.A religion that seems to treat others not of their faith as worthless only serves to belie the contention that Islam is a religion of peace.