NationStates Jolt Archive

Subject: RE: Muslims face expulsion in Europe if they do not assimilate
From the Financial Times
February 17, 2006

Cultures collide: Muslim immigrants will be expelled from Europe unless they reverse the growing perception of them as a social threat

By Lawrence Solomon

The Muslims refused to assimilate. They were expelled. This was the story in Europe 400 years ago. We are watching the sequel today.

Europeans are rarely welcoming to outsiders, even when the outsiders are blond and blue-eyed and come from the country next door. When the outsiders are un-European, swarthy and Muslim, they are tolerated at best. When some Muslims also insist that Europeans stop acting like Europeans, on pain of death, European tolerance comes to an end.

In the clash of cultures between secular Europeans and extremist Muslims, there can ultimately be no compatibility or compromise, only loss by one side or the other of the absolute values it holds dear. European capitulation on European soil, where they remain the dominant majority, is unlikely: Europeans revel in their liberty to mock religion, to poke fun at sacred cows, to be outrageous, even to offend.

European leaders have reacted to the Muslim upset over the cartoons two ways. Publically and to buy time, they seek to calm the protesters by deploring the abuse of freedom of speech. More significantly, they seek to preserve their societies by legislating Western norms, by tightening or ending immigration from Muslim countries, by enabling the expulsion of radical imans and other Muslim activists, and by raising the spectre of mass deportations.

In France, hard-line Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who in October characterized France's urban rioters as "rabble," will require non-European immigrants to sign a new "Contract of Welcome and Integration" that spells out their obligations. Among other reforms, the French government will be free to expel immigrants after 10 years. Insular Muslim communities -- commonplace today -- are outlawed. For immigrants to stay, they will have to demonstrate respect for French norms, such as equality between men and women. "If a wife is kept hostage at home without learning French, the whole family will be asked to leave [the country]," said Mr. Sarkozy, who proposes to rank countries to determine the desirability of their immigrants.

The Danes have brought in immigration laws that are stricter still, all but ending their liberal refugee program and discouraging even temporary workers. In the wake of the cartoon riots, many in Denmark, including those in government, want to see an outright ban on Muslim immigration and to have radical leaders stripped of citizenship and deported. To preserve home-grown values, Danish Minister for Cultural Affairs Brian Mikkelsen recently called for the creation of a "canon of Danish art, music, literature and film." Last summer, he stated that, "In Denmark we have seen the appearance of a parallel society in which minorities practice their own medieval values and undemocratic views," adding that, "This is the new front in our cultural war."

In Germany, which pioneered the guest-worker program in Europe, a sea change has occurred. "Multicultural societies have only ... functioned peacefully in authoritarian states. To that extent it was a mistake for us to bring guest workers from foreign cultures into the country at the beginning of the 1960s," said former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt. Germany's new Chancellor, Angela Merkel, shares his view: "The notion of multiculturalism has fallen apart," she said prior to her election. "Anyone coming here must respect our constitution and tolerate our Western and Christian roots."

The Netherlands, which has cut immigration in half since 2001, is deporting 26,000 rejected asylum seekers and keeping new arrivals in detention camps. Under proposed legislation, women will be banned from wearing the burka anywhere in public, not just in schools and public buildings as French legislation has it. "I believe we have been far too tolerant for too long, especially being too tolerant of intolerance, and we only got intolerance back," said Member of Dutch Parliament Geert Wilders, who has been forced to live in safe houses because of Islamist death threats. According to a recent Pew Global Attitudes poll, 51% of the Dutch view Muslims unfavourably.

Belgium may be less tolerant still. "Islam is now the number one enemy not only of Europe, but of the entire free world," states Filip Dewinter, leader of Vlaams Belang (The Flemish Interest), now Belgium's most popular political party. Mr. Dewinter has gained popularity by arguing that, "it is an illusion to think that a moderate Islam exists in Europe." He states: "There are already 25 million to 30 million Muslims on Europe's soil, and this becomes a threat. It's a real Trojan horse."

Many Europeans fear their Muslim populations. In Switzerland, 25% consider Muslims a threat to their country. In Italy, half the population believes a "clash of civilizations" between Islam and the West is underway and that Islam is "a religion more fanatical than any other."

The fear debilitates but it also stiffens resolve. The President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, backs the Danish government's refusal to apologize for the cartoons, saying, "It's better to publish too much than not to have freedom." France's Sarkozy prefers "an excess of cartooning to an excess of censorship." Italy's Northern League Party, a member of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's coalition government, printed T-shirts sporting the cartoons in advance of elections in April. The U.K. this week passed legislation broadening the right of free speech, no matter how offensive, barring a specific intent to provoke hatred.

Europe's Muslims now know that they are expected to integrate or to depart. Four centuries ago, after decades of threats of expulsion, forced conversions and other failed attempts to assimilate Muslims, complaints about them -- their use of Arabic, their clothes, their rejection of Western culture -- were similar. "They marry among themselves and do not mix with Old Christians," complained one report of Spain's Moriscos (Muslims who had undergone forced conversions to Christianity). Riots by Muslims at offences perpetrated upon them added to tensions. In the end, still not assimilated, most were expelled.

Europe grows a backbone. Woohoo :D

It's a shame people only recognize an article as fake when it's published in The New York Times.

:p

Muslims need to shape up, or they could be shipped out...

YEAH.. maybe they need to follow an US Patriot diet.. Mucho Big Mac,Freedom fries, etc


http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/pics/fatamerican1.gif

Europe grows a backbone. Woohoo :DNow all it needs is a Hitler-esque leader and we'll be on our way to progression, eh?

YEAH.. maybe they need to follow an US Patriot diet.. Mucho Big Mac,Freedom fries, etc


http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/pics/fatamerican1.gif
Yeah?

http://fatalwoman.com/img/productImages/ELM-3311.jpg

Yeah?
http://fatalwoman.com/img/productImages/ELM-3311.jpgI am sure you can do better than that.. :D

http://a-bikinis.com/mc-d501ct.jpg

Yeah? -snip-

Bet she's East European. :p

I’m glad people are giving this thread the level of seriousness it deserves.
Ah, I love NS.

In a serious response to this topic, may I be the first to say: Yay!

I think the OP was an exaggeration of the present mood in Europe, but I think Europe is certainly heading that way. Things could get extremely violent not only within Europe but between Europe and the Middle East within the next 10-30 years. I doubt tolerance will win out in Europe over what is percieved as "counterrevolutionary activity". Western secularism, freedom of expression, and democracy has been revolutionary in the last 200 years, Islam never underwent this revolution, and many muslims dislike these changes. It is only natural that westerners react to this extreme ideological opposition, not to mention instances of physical violence.

Just as Muslims have no right to regulate European life, Europeans have no right to regulate Muslim lives...

When I read the title of the topic, I was shocked and concerned. After reading what the laws actually entail, I see no problems. People need to learn that they must conform to the laws of their new country.

Just as Muslims have no right to regulate European life, Europeans have no right to regulate Muslim lives...

That's right. Until the Muslims enter a European society, and want the rights of Europeans. Then they MUST uphold the responsibilities of that society.

I hope Australia brings this in.

When I read the title of the topic, I was shocked and concerned. After reading what the laws actually entail, I see no problems. People need to learn that they must conform to the laws of their new country.

Not so bad? It's FORCING people through thought control. Force people to believe in equality? Outlaw insular communities? Outlaw the burka - freedom of expression (read: speech). Deport dissent? I thought Europe was championing for free speech and freedom - and I supported them in the Denmark issue. But now, this is just Orwellian.

That's right. Until the Muslims enter a European society, and want the rights of Europeans. Then they MUST uphold the responsibilities of that society.

I hope Australia brings this in.

Coercive tactics to enforce conformity is plain fascism. Muslims CANNOT ban European traditions as long as no force is initiated, while Europeans cannot do the same to Muslims. Let people live their own culture... maybe if Europe was more capitalist, it'd have an easier time integrating people. Just look at America. We all end up consuming fast-food burgers by the end of it all.

Why stop at deportation? Why not round up every Muslim and put them all in a camp for processing?

:rolleyes:
We'll call that Plan B

In a serious response to this topic, may I be the first to say: Yay!To the article? Nazi...

Well, I highly doubt trying to change Europeans to follow Muslim values is followed by a majority.

I call it paranoia.

We'll call that Plan B

If quite a few of the NS posters here had their way, it would be Plan Zyclon-B.

Not so bad? It's FORCING people through thought control. Force people to believe in equality? Outlaw insular communities? Outlaw the burka - freedom of expression (read: speech). Deport dissent? I thought Europe was championing for free speech and freedom - and I supported them in the Denmark issue. But now, this is just Orwellian.



Coercive tactics to enforce conformity is plain fascism. Muslims CANNOT ban European traditions as long as no force is initiated, while Europeans cannot do the same to Muslims. Let people live their own culture... maybe if Europe was more capitalist, it'd have an easier time integrating people. Just look at America. We all end up consuming fast-food burgers by the end of it all.

Actually, hey, in Iran, and Saudi Arabia, isn't it illegal to carry a bible? And, don't women have to wear like, headscarves and stuff? Even if they aren't like, Iranian? I don't see Europe going over there and saying "you can't do this in your own country." I just see them saying, "we want you to respect our traditions and our laws whilst you are in our countries."

Insular communities are more susceptible to the rise of extremism. Furthermore, such insular communities actively discourage language acquisition. This leads to reliance on government agencies etc. for survival, which in turn leads to extreme poverty, and a sense of hopelessness.

Such communities also make it easier to hide crimes. I'm against insular communities of all kinds.

To the article? Nazi...

Welcome to Rome. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If else, fuck yourself off, or we'll fuck you off.

Best policy ever.

I think the article is fake.

I really do.

Just as Muslims have no right to regulate European life, Europeans have no right to regulate Muslim lives...

Sorry, but when those Muslims are buring flags and embassies in European countries, those countries have one hell of a big right to regulate things. Sure, France can't tell Iran how to run things at home maybe. But when the Iranian immigrants and aliens set fire to a builing in Paris, France can do whatever the hell it's laws allow it to do under the cirmcumstances. Europeans don't give a damn about how Muslims lead there own life in their own country. But when they bring it to France and kill innocents in the name of their way of life, then France should kill and/or expell them all.

The FT website seems to have no knowledge of it. Can anyone vouchsafe its bona fides?

Welcome to Rome. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If else, fuck yourself off, or we'll fuck you off.

Best policy ever.

Actually, I liked the Roman policy set out in Mel Brooks, History of the World (part I) where the Roman senate voted to "Fuck the Poor!!" :) :rolleyes:

I think the article is fake.

I really do.
Seconded. No country (except maybe Denmark and Switzerland) could get that through its parliament.

Seconded. No country (except maybe Denmark and Switzerland) could get that through its parliament.

Yah. I am also 99% sure that the bit about the UK widening free speech is BS. I'm sure my relatives would have mentioned it, and I don't recall the times or BBC mentioning it. (I could be wrong, but I'm almost 100% its a fish story).

Therefore I call BS.

[QUOTE=Gauthier]Why stop at deportation? Why not round up every Muslim and put them all in a camp for processing?

:rolleyes:[/QUO
dont waste the time puttin them in camps they leave or they die

come here and become one of us or u have 2 choices 1 leave 2 die its up to u Q why come here if u dont want to be part of what we are? A to plan and carry out an attack.

Just as Muslims have no right to regulate European life, Europeans have no right to regulate Muslim lives...

SHUT UP YOU LAME FAGGOT, THE POINT OF IT IS THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO REGULATE WESTERN AFFAIRS

Not so bad? It's FORCING people through thought control. Force people to believe in equality? Outlaw insular communities? Outlaw the burka - freedom of expression (read: speech). Deport dissent? I thought Europe was championing for free speech and freedom - and I supported them in the Denmark issue. But now, this is just Orwellian.

When people walk down the street telling that "Your 9/11 is on it's way." and they're the 'normal' muslims, people stop caring. And you support inequality in the name of Religion. is Equality really so bad? Should a woman be a slave just because of a damn book!!!

It's adapt or leave, it's how to survive, They expect everyone else to adapt just for them. If you moved to the north pole would you expect the weather to change so you can go out in shorts and a short sleaved shirt? Or would you use your brain and wear heavy clothes.

Like the old saying. "It's my house, so you follow my rules."

That's what I don't get about the whole thing in the first place.

Why move to a country who's culture you do not enjoy, respect or want to participate in? I'm not going to move to Saudi Arabia, because I like being able to drive, vote, drink alcohol, and wander about freely without a male relative escorting me around... and although I'm not Christian, I like the idea that Christians can practice their religion as freely as Muslims, Hari Krishas, Buddhists, Mormons and all the rest of 'em.

And I like the idea that cartoonists can make fun of any and all of the above groups, and members of the above groups can, in return, write letters to the editor in protest, or even start their own newspapers loudly and publically opposing said offensive cartoons, if that's what they want to do.

Heck, as much as I liked Ireland when I visited, I wouldn't even move there, because I support abortion rights...

I really don't understand why you'd immigrate to a foreign country, if the foreign culture in question isn't one you find desirable.

--------------

And yes, I agree the article is bullshit. But an interesting issue it addresses nonetheless.

SHUT UP YOU LAME FAGGOT, THE POINT OF IT IS THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO REGULATE WESTERN AFFAIRS


I would rethink statements like that if you wish to stay on this forum. Clearly flaming.

Gee... change the places and the names and it could be the US and, ahem, Negros. Or the US and Irish, or the US and Mexicans, or the US and (insert ethnic minority here).

Eventually they will assimulate into the culture. There's already signs of that with the younger generations starting to pull away from the older beliefs. It takes time.

I'd also like to note that you cannot force anyone to believe anything, to try and do so is a great effort in futility. And don't even get me started on immigrants and feeling the need to band together and be MORE whatever they are than they were at home.

Europe grows a backbone. Woohoo :DThis one deserves an arched eyebrow. Whoever wrote that article seriously has no idea what they are talking about...

And besides, wouldn't it take more backbone to stand up to the world's greatest superpower on grounds of a war than to stand up to a bunch of immigrants? ;)

Sorry, but when those Muslims are buring flags and embassies in European countries...Really? When did this happen?

This one deserves an arched eyebrow. Whoever wrote that article seriously has no idea what they are talking about...

And besides, wouldn't it take more backbone to stand up to the world's greatest superpower on grounds of a war than to stand up to a bunch of immigrants? ;)

Hehe, it always amuses me when people in the US accuse Europe of being weak, considering most of history.

It's like a teenage bully who has beat up a few smaller, weaker kids at school mocking a veteran of multiple wars, many of them fought without a massive advantage, unlike the bully, on the grounds that he's a coward.

don't know if this is for real, but I found this PDF file... Still reading it so not posting any thoughts on it.
Muslims In Europe: Integration Policies in Selected Countries (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33166.pdf)

Okay, searched the Financial Times website....can't find the article. What a surprise...

Look, I reckon this is the same scam that Kievan-Prussia fell for yesterday with the Norwegian paper - another article about oppressing Muslims and such.

Okay, searched the Financial Times website....can't find the article. What a surprise...

Look, I reckon this is the same scam that Kievan-Prussia fell for yesterday with the Norwegian paper - another article about oppressing Muslims and such.

No, that was an article about muslims taking over Norway. Which isn't entirely untrue.

No, that was an article about muslims taking over Norway. Which isn't entirely untrue.
Unfortunatly, Cut and Paste really doesn't carry much weight. unless you can supply source (Paper name, article name, page number/section) or link... doubts will be there.

Just as Muslims have no right to regulate European life, Europeans have no right to regulate Muslim lives...

Well they do if they are citizens of the European nation.

A search for the article's author, "Lawrence Solomon", reveals that he leads a far-right Canadian cultural/environmental think-tank, and has his work referenced by the Stormfront white supremacist community. :rolleyes:

The Financial Times would probably be unable to legally print that article in the UK anyway.

No, that was an article about muslims taking over Norway. Which isn't entirely untrue.

Yes, it was. Or do you not remember the 6 or so pages of people, including me, searching everything from CNN to Reuters trying to confirm the story, and finding nothing? And also finding that facts in your story were glaringly wrong.

A search for the article's author, "Lawrence Solomon", reveals that he leads a far-right Canadian cultural/environmental think-tank, and has his work referenced by the Stormfront white supremacist community. :rolleyes:

The Financial Times would probably be unable to legally print that article in the UK anyway.

I knew something was dodgy about that article...

The Financial Times would probably be unable to legally print that article in the UK anyway.Why not Legally? is there laws there that are censoring what the papers (or Media) can print/say? (honest question folks.)

I knew something was dodgy about that article...
The only print newspaper which published it, as far as I can tell, is the National Post, founded by a guy called Conrad Black, who makes Rupert Murdoch look liberal and who last year was caught on camera stealing evidence requested by a court investigating him for fraud.

Why not Legally? is there laws there that are censoring what the papers (or Media) can print/say? (honest question folks.)
In the UK, we are getting a load of race hate legislation which will shortly dicourage the printing of material such as this. At the very least, newspapers will be open to legal challenge afterwards.

The only print newspaper which published it, as far as I can tell, is the National Post, founded by a guy called Conrad Black, who makes Rupert Murdoch look liberal and who last year was caught on camera stealing evidence requested by a court investigating him for fraud.

National Post...is that the US one with the large US flag on the front page?

National Post...is that the US one with the large US flag on the front page?
The Canadian one, I believe.

Anyway, I guess you could say, pwnt.

I buy the Financial Times from time to time, anyone who has ever read it will know that it is the last publication one would expect to pass cultural commentary, especially of this nature. :rolleyes:

In the UK, we are getting a load of race hate legislation which will shortly dicourage the printing of material such as this. At the very least, newspapers will be open to legal challenge afterwards.
If that article falls under race-hate laws then I would suggest there is something wrong with the legislation. Granted it's not exactly the most balanced article around, but in its content I don't think it could be said to be inciting anything.

Belgium may be less tolerant still. "Islam is now the number one enemy not only of Europe, but of the entire free world," states Filip Dewinter, leader of Vlaams Belang (The Flemish Interest), now Belgium's most popular political party. Mr. Dewinter has gained popularity by arguing that, "it is an illusion to think that a moderate Islam exists in Europe." He states: "There are already 25 million to 30 million Muslims on Europe's soil, and this becomes a threat. It's a real Trojan horse."

This, by the way, is absolutely wrong. Vlaams Blok was accused of racism, shut down and, due to a loophole, opened up as Vlaams Belang the next day. They are not popular in Belgium, but only in Flanders (and in Flanders, they do get a quarter of the vote, which is horrible).

The protests have also only encouraged people to vote for Vlaams Belang, so please! stop protesting and just shut up! it'll avoid making me go all beserk on these bloody nationalist parties.

Shrug ... fine. Screw Europe. They're welcome in the United States. We'll take 'em. Then they can see what freedom truly is.

Shrug ... fine. Screw Europe. They're welcome in the United States. We'll take 'em. Then they can see what freedom truly is.

Ummm, this article is actually false, or so full of holes, loopholes and errors as to make it so. Don't believe this pile of crap, Keruvalia.

Ummm, this article is actually false, or so full of holes, loopholes and errors as to make it so. Don't believe this pile of crap, Keruvalia.

Oh I know it's a pile of crap. My response was more to the people in the thread who think it's truth.

Oh I know it's a pile of crap. My response was more to the people in the thread who think it's truth.

Ohh, my apologies. I just wanted to make sure - you take enough crap in General without having malicious and false articles thrown at you.

Shrug ... fine. Screw Europe. They're welcome in the United States. We'll take 'em. Then they can see what freedom truly is.

So they can slowly disassembly it, just like CAIR is trying to do.

So they can slowly disassembly it, just like CAIR is trying to do.

God, where's your damned tinfoil hat? Keruvalia, ignore this guy. He's just trying to bait you.

So they can slowly disassembly it, just like CAIR is trying to do.

What's wrong with the Center for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics?

God, where's your damned tinfoil hat? Keruvalia, ignore this guy. He's just trying to bait you.

Though it is only a matter of time before the robots rise up and destory us (which they will, because we are soft and squishy).


I for one welcome out new robotic overlords though.

Though it is only a matter of time before the robots rise up and destory us (which they will, because we are soft and squishy).


I for one welcome out new robotic overlords though.

*Bows down*

All hail SKYNET!

On the other hand, K-P might think they're Muslim inventions intent on ruling Europe and destroying us all...

God, where's your damned tinfoil hat? Keruvalia, ignore this guy. He's just trying to bait you.

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

Yay! Anti-Muslim Conspiracy websites!

If that article falls under race-hate laws then I would suggest there is something wrong with the legislation. Granted it's not exactly the most balanced article around, but in its content I don't think it could be said to be inciting anything.
Most legislation not only affects the clear-cut territory for which it is written, but also incidentally acts to discourage stuff at the fringe. This article is an example of the sort of thing which many outlets would not publish "just to be on the safe side", and others would relish publishing to "sail close to the wind". I think we can agree there is a great deal of disagreement over what the laws would end up covering, and the threat of investigation over borderline material, even if it the matter is dismissed, may be sufficient to cause a moderation in language.

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

There's nothing about robots there though :(

There's nothing about robots there though :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet

No I was talking about the link that K-P posted.

No I was talking about the link that K-P posted.

Yeah, I know. I was posting a link for you with some robots in it, and also criticising K-P...I think. I'm confused.

I was rather sad this article turned out to be a fake. I was hoping some countries were finally realized that you can't tolerate intolerance. Doing so undermines the whole concept in the first place.

This is different than racism suffered by blacks and mexicans in the US. Europe actually wants Muslims to participate equally in society. However, I don't think accepting Muslim desires to turn Europe into a medieval theocracy should be a precondition for being considered a tolerant society.

I was rather sad this article turned out to be a fake. I was hoping some countries were finally realized that you can't tolerate intolerance. Doing so undermines the whole concept in the first place.

This is different than racism suffered by blacks and mexicans in the US. Europe actually wants Muslims to participate equally in society. However, I don't think accepting Muslim desires to turn Europe into a medieval theocracy should be a precondition for being considered a tolerant society.

Please, do tell me - what evidence do you have of Muslim desires to turn Europe into a medieval theocracy? Please, do enlighten me.

I was rather sad this article turned out to be a fake. I was hoping some countries were finally realized that you can't tolerate intolerance. Doing so undermines the whole concept in the first place.

This is different than racism suffered by blacks and mexicans in the US. Europe actually wants Muslims to participate equally in society. However, I don't think accepting Muslim desires to turn Europe into a medieval theocracy should be a precondition for being considered a tolerant society.

If European muslims wanted to live in a 'medieval theocracy' so much then presumably they'd move to one. They haven't so logically it follows that they don't want to live in a theocracy.

If European muslims wanted to live in a 'medieval theocracy' so much then presumably they'd move to one. They haven't so logically it follows that they don't want to live in a theocracy.
My observations suggest that they want to live in a world of really badly riced cars, expensive electronic gadgets, fast food, hashish, and skimpily-dressed women.

So the integration project is actually working great. :D

I was rather sad this article turned out to be a fake. I was hoping some countries were finally realized that you can't tolerate intolerance. Doing so undermines the whole concept in the first place.

This is different than racism suffered by blacks and mexicans in the US. Europe actually wants Muslims to participate equally in society. However, I don't think accepting Muslim desires to turn Europe into a medieval theocracy should be a precondition for being considered a tolerant society.The article is also fake in its accusations. I was wondering what the person was talking about since things just aren't like that over here. Sure, we have the occasional case of a Turkish family murdering their daughter to protect their honor, but it most certainly isn't typical of a Turkish immigrant family.

My observations suggest that they want to live in a world of really badly riced cars, expensive electronic gadgets, fast food, hashish, and skimpily-dressed women.

So the integration project is actually working great. :D

*hands Tactical Grace a cookie*

The article is also fake in its accusations. I was wondering what the person was talking about since things just aren't like that over here. Sure, we have the occasional case of a Turkish family murdering their daughter to protect their honor, but it most certainly isn't typical of a Turkish immigrant family.

One case of honour killing is one too many. We should start shipping.

One case of honour killing is one too many. We should start shipping.

Great, send them to a country where honour killings won't be punished and the murderers won't be brought to justice.:rolleyes:

Please explain your logic.

To the article? Nazi...
The "Chinese Republics" are the first to invoke Godwin's Law? That's ... disturbing. :eek:

One case of honour killing is one too many. We should start shipping."We?" Must I remind you that you don't live here? What next? Ship all the convicts to Australia again?

Why stop at deportation? Why not round up every Muslim and put them all in a camp for processing?

:rolleyes:

lol i like it!

Actually, hey, in Iran, and Saudi Arabia, isn't it illegal to carry a bible? And, don't women have to wear like, headscarves and stuff? Even if they aren't like, Iranian? I don't see Europe going over there and saying "you can't do this in your own country." I just see them saying, "we want you to respect our traditions and our laws whilst you are in our countries."

Insular communities are more susceptible to the rise of extremism. Furthermore, such insular communities actively discourage language acquisition. This leads to reliance on government agencies etc. for survival, which in turn leads to extreme poverty, and a sense of hopelessness.

Such communities also make it easier to hide crimes. I'm against insular communities of all kinds.
But ... but ... but you're trying to actually be ... you know, like ... logical! OMG! :eek:

One case of honour killing is one too many. We should start shipping.
Agreed. To Israel! :rolleyes:

If European muslims wanted to live in a 'medieval theocracy' so much then presumably they'd move to one. They haven't so logically it follows that they don't want to live in a theocracy.

That's the thing--life sucks in those theocracies. They're better off moving to a country that's all the benefits of moving past that stage and then turning it into one.

Great, send them to a country where honour killings won't be punished and the murderers won't be brought to justice.:rolleyes:

Please explain your logic.

Because over there it's not our problem.

"We?" Must I remind you that you don't live here? What next? Ship all the convicts to Australia again?

I mean all Western nations should start shipping.

That's the thing--life sucks in those theocracies. They're better off moving to a country that's all the benefits of moving past that stage and then turning it into one.

A poll of UK Muslims found that two thirds thought western society was fine, the poll is reliable because it was collected for use in an anti-Muslim newsstory.

Younger Muslims in particular don't want a theocracy, they were born in this country and they like it here, they like being able to meet young people of the opposite sex and go out together, they like being able to use cameras to take pictures of friends and family, they like not being forced to observe Islamic law, they like freedom.

Need I say more?

A poll of UK Muslims found that two thirds thought western society was fine, the poll is reliable because it was collected for use in an anti-Muslim newsstory.

Younger Muslims in particular don't want a theocracy, they were born in this country and they like it here, they like being able to meet young people of the opposite sex and go out together, they like being able to use cameras to take pictures of friends and family, they like not being forced to observe Islamic law, they like freedom.

Need I say more?

So that's a whole third that don't like Western society? Sounds like a lot more than just a tiny minority.

Because over there it's not our problem.

But over here we can discourage it and punish those responsible. I put it to you that we are under a moral obligation to protect the young women who might be targetted for honour killings by encouraging them to stay in the west.

So that's a whole third that don't like Western society? Sounds like a lot more than just a tiny minority.

Friend, as a socialist I don't like western society either.

But over here we can discourage it and punish those responsible. I put it to you that we are under a moral obligation to protect the young women who might be targetted for honour killings by encouraging them to stay in the west.

But the thing is, punishment doesn't work. If the muslim is devout enough to kill his daughter over holding hands with a non-muslim, he's devout enough to not fear our law, only the koran's law.

"Muslims face expulsion in Europe if they do not assimilate"

Some of these statements by Eurpoean leaders sound far less tolerant than virtually all of the statements made by American leaders on this topic. It's encouraging to see that most European nations are finally recognizing the intractability of Muslim opposition to rights and freedoms long practiced in Europe, but they need to realize as well that this entire thing could get out of hand. In a clash of cultures of this sort, where deeply held values are at stake, many tend to allow the ideological clash to boil over into rage.

When you believe a lie it does not necessarily mean that you should be punished for it. The thing to focus on is behavior, not belief. Fortunately, most of the statements in the article do indeed focus on the behavior of Muslims.

Do you have a link for this article???

Friend, as a socialist I don't like western society either.

Then why are you here? GTFO.

But the thing is, punishment doesn't work. If the muslim is devout enough to kill his daughter over holding hands with a non-muslim, he's devout enough to not fear our law, only the koran's law.Show's how much you know about the topic. It's usually the brothers that do it.

But the thing is, punishment doesn't work. If the muslim is devout enough to kill his daughter over holding hands with a non-muslim, he's devout enough to not fear our law, only the koran's law.

But if we send them to the Middle East then they'll most likely be radicalised (not least because they'll be angry at us over being kicked out of their homes) and so they'll be more likely to carry out honour killings. What's more if they're in the west then we can offer protection to women who think they might be at risk from honour killings.

You also fail to realise that by encouraging the growth of moderate Islam in the west it will present an alternative to radicalism in the years to come.

A poll of UK Muslims found that two thirds thought western society was fine, the poll is reliable because it was collected for use in an anti-Muslim newsstory.

You're not looking at this from the right angle. There are over two million Muslims in the UK (that's more Muslims in Britain than their are Irishmen). Are you trying to say that a third of them being anti-Western is fine and dandy?

Younger Muslims in particular don't want a theocracy, they were born in this country and they like it here, they like being able to meet young people of the opposite sex and go out together, they like being able to use cameras to take pictures of friends and family, they like not being forced to observe Islamic law, they like freedom.

They like, in effect, not having to be Muslim. You're telling me that Muslims who don't bother observing their faith are okay.

I agree. Real Muslims, on the other hand, are a serious concern.

"Muslims face expulsion in Europe if they do not assimilate"

Some of these statements by Eurpoean leaders sound far less tolerant than virtually all of the statements made by American leaders on this topic. It's encouraging to see that most European nations are finally recognizing the intractability of Muslim opposition to rights and freedoms long practiced in Europe, but they need to realize as well that this entire thing could get out of hand. In a clash of cultures of this sort, where deeply held values are at stake, many tend to allow the ideological clash to boil over into rage.

When you believe a lie it does not necessarily mean that you should be punished for it. The thing to focus on is behavior, not belief. Fortunately, most of the statements in the article do indeed focus on the behavior of Muslims.

Do you have a link for this article???No linky, so probably no fact... facty... truthy... whatever. :D

Then why are you here? GTFO.

Why should I leave? I plan to stay here and do what I can to improve the situation.

"Muslims face expulsion in Europe if they do not assimilate"

Some of these statements by Eurpoean leaders sound far less tolerant than virtually all of the statements made by American leaders on this topic. It's encouraging to see that most European nations are finally recognizing the intractability of Muslim opposition to rights and freedoms long practiced in Europe, but they need to realize as well that this entire thing could get out of hand. In a clash of cultures of this sort, where deeply held values are at stake, many tend to allow the ideological clash to boil over into rage.

When you believe a lie it does not necessarily mean that you should be punished for it. The thing to focus on is behavior, not belief. Fortunately, most of the statements in the article do indeed focus on the behavior of Muslims.

Do you have a link for this article???Eut, the article is bullshit. If there's been statements like that, they're either taken out of context, or as with the Belgian Nazis, said by Nazis.

... moderate Islam ...
More and more, this seems to be an oxymoron, sadly.

Eut, the article is bullshit. If there's been statements like that, they're either taken out of context, or as with the Belgian Nazis, said by Nazis.
Um ... that's why I asked for a link. :p

Show's how much you know about the topic. It's usually the brothers that do it.

WOW. Oh god. It makes such a difference.

Actually, hey, in Iran, and Saudi Arabia, isn't it illegal to carry a bible? And, don't women have to wear like, headscarves and stuff? Even if they aren't like, Iranian?

Such communities also make it easier to hide crimes. I'm against insular communities of all kinds.
You said it, community. Iran has surprisingly little in the way of religiously oppressive legislation. Until recently, women in Iran would dress the same as anywhere in the world, the locals could out-drink the Muslims in the Balkans, and the bible thing frankly sounds made up.

The changes we have seen are driven by society, not the state. Social pressures, not legal pressures dictate that visiting women wear a headscarf. While it is true that the government in Iran has become markedly more fundamentalist, this departure from the norm is made possible by changing attitudes among the populace. The support for reform is beginning to weaken at the grass roots.

Saudi Arabia is a separate case. It was a religiously austere and fundamentalist tribe which united the country during the early part of the 20th century, and it was a deal struck with the US at the end of WW2, essentially a protection contract for the lifetime of the dynasty, that has kept them in power ever since. The responsibility there rests squarely with the US.

The Muslim world is hardly homogenous. The contrasts in social norms, ideology and religious interpretation is very wide, and the causes range from the history of a society, to the unique threats one may face, to geopolitical machinations handing particular groups an advantage. You would be surprised how much fundamentalism has been cultivated by the West, and you would be surprised that the Western ideal is in many cases met with disillusionment, once close to being attained.

You're not looking at this from the right angle. There are over two million Muslims in the UK. Are you trying to say that a third of them being anti-Western is fine and dandy?

A third of them wanted to change western civilisation by peaceful means, less than one percent thought that violence was acceptable. Are you going to deny them their democratic rights?

They like, in effect, not having to be Muslim. You're telling me that Muslims who don't bother observing their faith are okay.

I agree. Real Muslims, on the other hand, are a serious concern.

They're moderate muslims, that doesn't mean they aren't real muslims. Look at the differences between fundamentalist Christians and moderate Christians.

But if we send them to the Middle East then they'll most likely be radicalised (not least because they'll be angry at us over being kicked out of their homes) and so they'll be more likely to carry out honour killings. What's more if they're in the west then we can offer protection to women who think they might be at risk from honour killings.

You also fail to realise that by encouraging the growth of moderate Islam in the west it will present an alternative to radicalism in the years to come.

But we can never stop them. Overall quality of life in the West has gone DOWN because of things like this, and we can't fix it unless the rad muslims are gone.

A third of them wanted to change western civilisation by peaceful means, less than one percent thought that violence was acceptable. Are you going to deny them their democratic rights?

33% of muslims want to change Western society to suit themselves.

100% of native Westerners like being alive and free.



Those two statements are incompatible.

More and more, this seems to be an oxymoron, sadly.

Yeah. Moderate Muslims are just Muslims that aren't bothering.

When talking about any other people actually observant of their religion they're "strict Roman Catholics" or "orthodox Jews". Where we an observant Muslims we call him an "extremist".

But we can never stop them. Overall quality of life in the West has gone DOWN because of things like this, and we can't fix it unless the rad muslims are gone.

*sigh* I'm sure I'm going to regret this but just how has quality of life gone down because of muslims?

And yes we can stop them, that's why there is a lower rate of honour killings in the west than there is in the Middle East...

Why should I leave? I plan to stay here and do what I can to improve the situation.

We like it the way it is. You ain't changing shit. FO.

33% of muslims want to change Western society to suit themselves.

100% of native Westerners like being alive and free.



Those two statements are incompatible.And?
There's plenty of Westerners that want to change Western society to suit themselves. It's why we have so many political parties...

*sigh* I'm sure I'm going to regret this but just how has quality of life gone down because of muslims?

And yes we can stop them, that's why there is a lower rate of honour killings in the west than there is in the Middle East...

Well, any society which has honour killings has a lower quality of life than a society that doesn't.

And we have less of them because we have less muslims.

33% of muslims want to change Western society to suit themselves.

100% of native Westerners like being alive and free.



Those two statements are incompatible.

Excuse me you may have noticed that wanting an end to western society =/= wanting a theocracy and loss of freedoms. As I have already stated I want an end to the current western society but I don't support a loss of freedoms in any way.

I eagerly await the US deporting the millions of Christian fundamentalists who want to change that country's society. I mean c'mon, some of them kill doctors. :rolleyes:

Well, any society which has honour killings has a lower quality of life than a society that doesn't.

And we have less of them because we have less muslims.Whoa! Hold on. We have honor killings because of Christians too. This isn't limited to the muslim immigrants.

We like it the way it is. You ain't changing shit. FO.

I'm sorry I missed the part where you were appointed as spokesmen for the entire western world.

And now you show your true ideals: you don't believe in democracy or freedom of speech, you simply use them as an excuse to abuse muslims.

Well, any society which has honour killings has a lower quality of life than a society that doesn't.

And we have less of them because we have less muslims.
Yes. You also have more race riots in Australia. I wonder why that is...

You said it, community. Iran has surprisingly little in the way of religiously oppressive legislation. Until recently, women in Iran would dress the same as anywhere in the world, the locals could out-drink the Muslims in the Balkans, and the bible thing frankly sounds made up.

Actually, I beleive that christianity is one of the state religions in Iran. It's not like saudi in that respect.

But that's not what bothers me. It's their treatment of women and gays. (Esp. rape victims). And that is hardly driven by society per se, but by a ruling clique of fundamentalist mullahs, who god willing, will survive to see the day that right thinking people can cut their balls off.

I don't support a loss of freedoms in any way.

So you're pro Mohammed cartoons and "KILL THE KAFIR" placards, I assume?

Well, any society which has honour killings has a lower quality of life than a society that doesn't.

And we have less of them because we have less muslims.

I'm not even going to respond to this idiocy, instead I'm going to point and laugh.

*points and laughs*

We like it the way it is. You ain't changing shit. FO.
Who are "we"? The white supremacist community? There are even fewer of you in these parts, than black people. It is you, my friend, who isn't changing anything, and your anger is directly proportional to your helplessness and impotent despair.

So you're pro Mohammed cartoons and "KILL THE KAFIR" placards, I assume?

I support the right to print the cartoons but what is 'the kafir'?

Actually, I beleive that christianity is one of the state religions in Iran. It's not like saudi in that respect.

But that's not what bothers me. It's their treatment of women and gays. (Esp. rape victims). And that is hardly driven by society per se, but by a ruling clique of fundamentalist mullahs, who god willing, will survive to see the day that right thinking people can cut their balls off.
Look at Africa. Virtually all Christian. Indeed, far more devout and observant than anywhere in the West. Same groups face persecution, for the same reasons. No religion has a monopoly on intolerance.

Look at Africa. Virtually all Christian. Indeed, far more devout and observant than anywhere in the West. Same groups face persecution, for the same reasons. No religion has a monopoly on intolerance.

Not to mention the child abuse that goes on in the form of 'demon exorcisms' in some African churches, I expect Prussia will want to deport all of the Christians too once he can work out where to send them.

I support the right to print the cartoons but what is 'the kafir'?

It's a South African insult comparable to "******"

EDIT - Oh, and it also means "infidel" in Arabic. My bad for not getting the right "Kaffir", then.

Why stop at deportation? Why not round up every Muslim and put them all in a camp for processing?

:rolleyes:

You're only upset because your knee-jerk can't hit Bush on this one.

Whoa! Hold on. We have honor killings because of Christians too. This isn't limited to the muslim immigrants.

Wow, Germany got fucked up since I last been there.

I'm sorry I missed the part where you were appointed as spokesmen for the entire western world.

And now you show your true ideals: you don't believe in democracy or freedom of speech, you simply use them as an excuse to abuse muslims.

Of course I do. You said you want to change that. I take that as a threat to Western beliefs.

Whoa! Hold on. We have honor killings because of Christians too. This isn't limited to the muslim immigrants.
Prove it, please.

Not to mention the child abuse that goes on in the form of 'demon exorcisms' in some African churches, I expect Prussia will want to deport all of the Christians too once he can work out where to send them.

Africa isn't Western, forget them.

Wow, Germany got fucked up since I last been there.Either that or you built yourself an illusionary Germany in your mind.

Yes. You also have more race riots in Australia. I wonder why that is...

Because of the Lebanese rapist thugs?

"Kafir" means "unbeliever", Random. It's what was on some of the "protest" placards when the Muslims went on their first big march in London. Other such catchy slogans included "Mock 2day die 2moro Dennmark" and "WHOEVER INSULTS A PROPHET KILL HIM" (a qu'ranic or hadith quote, I believe).

It's a South African insult comparable to "******"

EDIT - Oh, and it also means "infidel" in Arabic. My bad for not getting the right "Kaffir", then.

Ah I see, thank you.

No I don't support incitement to violence.

Either that or you built yourself an illusionary Germany in your mind.

No, I'm pretty sure I was there in 1997. It was nice.

Ah, Europe is finally waking up to the idea that we're all in a war that was declared by some parts of Islam long ago.

I guess they thought it was all over after the Battle of Lepanto.

Well, the US caught on in 2001 - and look where that took us.

Now some Europeans are thinking "Wannsee".

Prove it, please.A lot of the immigrants from the FYR have similar honor codes to the Turkish families here. The extremists among them have almost the same rules, and Serbs aren't muslim, they're orthodox christian.

"Kafir" means "unbeliever", Random. It's what was on some of the "protest" placards when the Muslims went on their first big march in London. Other such catchy slogans included "Mock 2day die 2moro Dennmark" and "WHOEVER INSULTS A PROPHET KILL HIM" (a qu'ranic or hadith quote, I believe).

Ah, would those be the placards that the Muslim Council of Britian condemned as 'unacceptable' while calling for the police to arrest the protesters who used those slogans?

Now some Europeans are thinking "Wannsee".
Those that do have always been thinking "Wannsee." (Even though they usually deny that "Wannsee" ever happened)

Ah, Europe is finally waking up to the idea that we're all in a war that was declared by some parts of Islam long ago.

I guess they thought it was all over after the Battle of Lepanto.

Vienna 1683, surely?

Ah, Europe is finally waking up to the idea that we're all in a war that was declared by some parts of Islam long ago.

I guess they thought it was all over after the Battle of Lepanto.

Well, the US caught on in 2001 - and look where that took us.

Now some Europeans are thinking "Wannsee".

You did read the bit where it turned out that the article was fake didn't you?

Ah, Europe is finally waking up to the idea that we're all in a war that was declared by some parts of Islam long ago.

I guess they thought it was all over after the Battle of Lepanto.

Well, the US caught on in 2001 - and look where that took us.

Now some Europeans are thinking "Wannsee".
Care to explain this? :)

Look at Africa. Virtually all Christian. Indeed, far more devout and observant than anywhere in the West. Same groups face persecution, for the same reasons. No religion has a monopoly on intolerance.

Yah, I'd cut their balls off too. Perhaps I wasn't clear. This has nothing to do with my general dislike for religion (the only two M.E. based I can vaguely tolerate is zorastrianism and judaism, for obvious reasons), but rather the oppression bullshit.

*Is well aware that he ought not to, but dances for joy*

You did read the bit where it turned out that the article was fake didn't you?
Linky?

Those that do have always been thinking "Wannsee." (Even though they usually deny that "Wannsee" ever happened)
Reminds me of the time I was drinking with some business associates in Stuttgart, and slowly came to the realization that the men I was drinking with were closet Nazis who thought I was a racial mongrel...

Reminds me of the time I was drinking with some business associates in Stuttgart, and slowly came to the realization that the men I was drinking with were closet Nazis who thought I was a racial mongrel...
Mutts iz da bes'! Smarter, faster, and usually better looking! :D

:mad: :headbang:
One must look at the silent majority of moderate Muslims and not make sweeping generaliztions that they always refuse to acclimate, are fanatics, and want to "Islamize" other countries!!!!!!!!!!!!! My best friend is a moderate Muslim, and she has fully acclimatized, gained citizenship, and THIS is her country now. She is very successful here, and her family has gained great wealth by immigrating- they left poverty in Pakistan. They worked very hard for everything they've got, and do not deserve to be generalized as fanatics!!!!!! The Muslim fanatics, the terrorists, are the EXCEPTION rather than the RULE!!!

Linky?

Exactly, the article has no link and we've only been able to find it on a very dubious 'news' site...

Care to explain this? :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto_(1571)

Essentially, a major military and psychological victory over Islam, where Christian galleys rowed by Muslim slaves defeated Muslim galleys rowed by Christian slaves.

Probably more symbolic than anything else, but after that Europe thought that they had really kicked Islam down.

No, I'm pretty sure I was there in 1997. It was nice.
How did you get the idea that our society has gone down since then then?

Ah, would those be the placards that the Muslim Council of Britian condemned as 'unacceptable' while calling for the police to arrest the protesters who used those slogans?

Some said they were justified, some said it was unacceptable. The Muslim Council of Britain says whatever it can to preserve an air of credibility since its drunken former leader headbutted a policeman and made dire threats that he would use his influence to have the police officers arresting him nailed for racism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto_(1571)

Essentially, a major military and psychological victory over Islam, where Christian galleys rowed by Muslim slaves defeated Muslim galleys rowed by Christian slaves.

Probably more symbolic than anything else, but after that Europe thought that they had really kicked Islam down.

The link's broken, try this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto_%281571%29) one.

Some said they were justified, some said it was unacceptable. The Muslim Council of Britain has does whatever it can to preserve an air of credibility since its drunken former leader headbutted a policeman and made dire threats that he would use his influence to have the police officers arresting him nailed for racism.

Don't forget his rampant homophobia.

He's a class act, and credit to muslims everywhere.

Some said they were justified, some said it was unacceptable. The Muslim Council of Britain says whatever it can to preserve an air of credibility since its drunken former leader headbutted a policeman and made dire threats that he would use his influence to have the police officers arresting him nailed for racism.

That kind of behaviour is probably why he's only a 'former' leader...

Don't forget his rampant homophobia.

He's a class act, and credit to muslims everywhere.
Well, you know how it usually turns out with blowhard religious leaders of any ilk who are rampant homophobes.

He's probably a male prostitute with his own website under an assumed name. Or he fondles little boys.

Some said they were justified, some said it was unacceptable. The Muslim Council of Britain says whatever it can to preserve an air of credibility since its drunken former leader headbutted a policeman and made dire threats that he would use his influence to have the police officers arresting him nailed for racism.

Muslim Council of Britain, sounds a tad oxymoronic no?

Muslim Council of Britain, sounds a tad oxymoronic no?

No, not really.

Actually, hey, in Iran, and Saudi Arabia, isn't it illegal to carry a bible? And, don't women have to wear like, headscarves and stuff? Even if they aren't like, Iranian? I don't see Europe going over there and saying "you can't do this in your own country." I just see them saying, "we want you to respect our traditions and our laws whilst you are in our countries."

It is indeed a hypocracy.

It just struck me that Kievan-Prussia shares his ideology with al-Qaeda. :)

Allow me to explain.

A long time ago, the US hinted to Iraq that a border incident with Kuwait would be an acceptable resolution to a dispute involving Kuwait pumping Iraqi oil from across the border. Saddam Hussein misunderstood the hint and invaded the whole country. A whole bunch of other countries demolished it, using neighbouring countries as springboards. The US however, stayed behind in Saudi Arabia.

The Afghan Mujahedeen, a group of American-armed and funded Islamic extremists, took exception to this. They were disgusted by the fact that the US had troops on the ground of a land sacred to their religion, and the troops did not share their values. Under the leadership of Osama bin Laden, and rebranded as the globalised brand al-Quaeda, thus began their campaign to force them out.

Kievan-Prussia is of the same mindset. He sees foreigners in his country, who do not share his values, and wants to forcibly eject them. Xenophobia - a reassuring constant through history. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto_(1571)

Essentially, a major military and psychological victory over Islam, where Christian galleys rowed by Muslim slaves defeated Muslim galleys rowed by Christian slaves.

Probably more symbolic than anything else, but after that Europe thought that they had really kicked Islam down.
Hmmm. I was under the impression that it was the Battle of Tours which turned the Muslim tide:

"The defeat of the Saracen invaders of Frankish lands at Tours (more properly Poitiers) in 732 A.D. was a turning point in history. It is not likely the Muslims, if victorious, would have penetrated, at least at once, far into the north, but they would surely have seized South Gaul, and thence readily have crushed the weak Christian powers of Italy."

"From 711 Muslim forces crossed the Straits of Gibraltar, conquered the Visigothic Kingdom, and in less than a decade crossed the Pyrenees. In 732, under the command of Abd-er- rahman, they were decisively defeated by Charles Martel and the Franks at the Battle of Poitiers [or Tours]. This event looms much larger in Western history than Muslim - leading to a famous passage of purple prose by Edward Gibbon about minarets rather than spires in Oxford if the Muslims had won."

It feels weird having people who are on the same side of the debate as me for once.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. I'll check up on this topic tomorrow and see how much of what I said today I still agree with. Night.

It just struck me that Kievan-Prussia shares his ideology with al-Qaeda. :)

Allow me to explain.

A long time ago, the US hinted to Iraq that a border incident with Kuwait would be an acceptable resolution to a dispute involving Kuwait pumping Iraqi oil from across the border. Saddam Hussein misunderstood the hint and invaded the whole country. A whole bunch of other countries demolished it, using neighbouring countries as springboards. The US however, stayed behind in Saudi Arabia.

The Afghan Mujahedeen, a group of American-armed and funded Islamic extremists, took exception to this. They were disgusted by the fact that the US had troops on the ground of a land sacred to their religion, and the troops did not share their values. Under the leadership of Osama bin Laden, and rebranded as the globalised brand al-Quaeda, thus began their campaign to force them out.

Kievan-Prussia is of the same mindset. He sees foreigners in his country, who do not share his values, and wants to forcibly eject them. Xenophobia - a reassuring constant through history. :)

The difference between me and them? I don't ram jets into their civilian skyscrapers.

Well, you know how it usually turns out with blowhard religious leaders of any ilk who are rampant homophobes.

He's probably a male prostitute with his own website under an assumed name. Or he fondles little boys.

Ha. I had a friend who spent about a year in the ME. He said the men were always holding hands and kissing each other. At first he thought it was cultural, but after a while, he realized that perhaps wasn't the case. (not the language he used).

Anyway, he reckoned that explained why the treat their women the way they do.

Hmmm. I was under the impression that it was the Battle of Tours which turned the Muslim tide:

"The defeat of the Saracen invaders of Frankish lands at Tours (more properly Poitiers) in 732 A.D. was a turning point in history. It is not likely the Muslims, if victorious, would have penetrated, at least at once, far into the north, but they would surely have seized South Gaul, and thence readily have crushed the weak Christian powers of Italy."

Different war. Siege of Vienna was also important.

It feels weird having people who are on the same side of the debate as me for once.
:rolleyes:

Uh-huh. A few lone voices in a crowd.

It just struck me that Kievan-Prussia shares his ideology with al-Qaeda. :)

Allow me to explain.

A long time ago, the US hinted to Iraq that a border incident with Kuwait would be an acceptable resolution to a dispute involving Kuwait pumping Iraqi oil from across the border. Saddam Hussein misunderstood the hint and invaded the whole country. A whole bunch of other countries demolished it, using neighbouring countries as springboards. The US however, stayed behind in Saudi Arabia.

The Afghan Mujahedeen, a group of American-armed and funded Islamic extremists, took exception to this. They were disgusted by the fact that the US had troops on the ground of a land sacred to their religion, and the troops did not share their values. Under the leadership of Osama bin Laden, and rebranded as the globalised brand al-Quaeda, thus began their campaign to force them out.

Kievan-Prussia is of the same mindset. He sees foreigners in his country, who do not share his values, and wants to forcibly eject them. Xenophobia - a reassuring constant through history. :)

As Confucious once said: "PWNED!!1!!eleven!!":p

The difference between me and them? I don't ram jets into their civilian skyscrapers.
Because you don't have the guts.

Or maybe you're just not old enough yet. :p

The difference between me and them? I don't ram jets into their civilian skyscrapers.

Didn't you condone race rioting in Australia?

Hmmm. I was under the impression that it was the Battle of Tours which turned the Muslim tide:

"The defeat of the Saracen invaders of Frankish lands at Tours (more properly Poitiers) in 732 A.D. was a turning point in history. It is not likely the Muslims, if victorious, would have penetrated, at least at once, far into the north, but they would surely have seized South Gaul, and thence readily have crushed the weak Christian powers of Italy."

"From 711 Muslim forces crossed the Straits of Gibraltar, conquered the Visigothic Kingdom, and in less than a decade crossed the Pyrenees. In 732, under the command of Abd-er- rahman, they were decisively defeated by Charles Martel and the Franks at the Battle of Poitiers [or Tours]. This event looms much larger in Western history than Muslim - leading to a famous passage of purple prose by Edward Gibbon about minarets rather than spires in Oxford if the Muslims had won."

Or the siege of vienna in 1683 (which is why europe has the croissant, to celebrate defeating the muslisms).

Last I looked vienna was in europe.

Different war. Siege of Vienna was also important.
Different war, or continuing clash of "cultures?"

Hmmm. I was under the impression that it was the Battle of Tours which turned the Muslim tide:

"The defeat of the Saracen invaders of Frankish lands at Tours (more properly Poitiers) in 732 A.D. was a turning point in history. It is not likely the Muslims, if victorious, would have penetrated, at least at once, far into the north, but they would surely have seized South Gaul, and thence readily have crushed the weak Christian powers of Italy."

"From 711 Muslim forces crossed the Straits of Gibraltar, conquered the Visigothic Kingdom, and in less than a decade crossed the Pyrenees. In 732, under the command of Abd-er- rahman, they were decisively defeated by Charles Martel and the Franks at the Battle of Poitiers [or Tours]. This event looms much larger in Western history than Muslim - leading to a famous passage of purple prose by Edward Gibbon about minarets rather than spires in Oxford if the Muslims had won."

You've got to factor the oft-overlooked battle at Tolouse into this. The jihad could indeed have made it to the Channel.

Because you don't have the guts.

Oh yeah, killing 3000 people with a passenger jet. True heroism.

Didn't you condone race rioting in Australia?

I'm not going to comdemn people for doing something when the police don't.

Hmmm. I was under the impression that it was the Battle of Tours which turned the Muslim tide:


Depends on which country is telling the story and taking the credit.

I see the major turning point as the Battle of Khartoum, where it became instantly obvious that no Islamic army would ever be able to defeat a Western one, due to the technological differences that would never be overcome.

I'm not going to comdemn people for doing something when the police don't.True heroism...

No, not really.

Do elaborate, I would contend that in a nominally Christian state, a muslim council that is officially recognised is an oxymoron.

I'm not going to comdemn people for doing something when the police don't.

So you have no objection to the use of violence for political ends, that's another step closer to bin Laden...

Depends on which country is telling the story and taking the credit.

I see the major turning point as the Battle of Khartoum, where it became instantly obvious that no Islamic army would ever be able to defeat a Western one, due to the technological differences that would never be overcome.

In that respect, I would refer to Vienna in precedence to Khartoum, however Khartoum did finally demonstrate the inherent and complete superiority of the west in military and technological terms.

maybe its just fair.... after all europeans colonised muslim lands for hundreds of years telling muslims wad to do. when the portugese and dutch came to indonesia, melaka and phillipines they did not try to assimliate as u suggest what muslims do now, they came with big cannons telling muslims that we have to follow thier laws... and hey it didnt happen to just muslims but about every other religion race and culture.... maybe after exploiting the rest of the world since the 1500's imposing westernise 'civlized' culture, or the white man's burden using guns and cannons... maybe after 500 years of ruling the world by force, lies and deceit... maybe europe is just bearing the fruits of its labour.... for 500 years you come to thier lands... now they come to your lands

i mean its no suprise... wy do pakistanis and indians come to Britain .... well its cuz the british ruled dem... why north afraicans to france? guess what... its cuz the french ruled dem. i mean takin religion out of the equation.

you europeans owe these people alot... u owe them the 500 years that u made them slaves... the cultures u destroyed... the treasures u plundred... the lands u exploited... 500 years of social darwinism 500 yers of gunboat diplomacy... so dun come around saying that u are being vicitmized here... man... the british museam still has mummies and artifacts that rightly belong to egypt and india and does not want to give it back. so what goes around comes around... if u ask me europe is just facing the consequences of trying to civlize the rest of the world and since u did such a great job at it... we colonised ppl decide to return u da favour =)

Do elaborate, I would contend that in a nominally Christian state, a muslim council that is officially recognised is an oxymoron.

Why? We're not a theocracy and we don't control their right to hold their religous beliefs.

That kind of behaviour is probably why he's only a 'former' leader...

The fact that he was ever chairman at all suggests that the entire institution is rotten to the core--and he only stepped down when attempts at hushing the incident up failed.

He didn't retire in disagrace, of course. He was given one hell of a golden handshake.

maybe its just fair.... after all europeans colonised muslim lands for hundreds of years telling muslims wad to do. when the portugese and dutch came to indonesia, melaka and phillipines they did not try to assimliate as u suggest what muslims do now, they came with big cannons telling muslims that we have to follow thier laws... and hey it didnt happen to just muslims but about every other religion race and culture.... maybe after exploiting the rest of the world since the 1500's imposing westernise 'civlized' culture, or the white man's burden using guns and cannons... maybe after 500 years of ruling the world by force, lies and deceit... maybe europe is just bearing the fruits of its labour.... for 500 years you come to thier lands... now they come to your lands

i mean its no suprise... wy do pakistanis and indians come to Britain .... well its cuz the british ruled dem... why north afraicans to france? guess what... its cuz the french ruled dem. i mean takin religion out of the equation.

you europeans owe these people alot... u owe them the 500 years that u made them slaves... the cultures u destroyed... the treasures u plundred... the lands u exploited... 500 years of social darwinism 500 yers of gunboat diplomacy... so dun come around saying that u are being vicitmized here... man... the british museam still has mummies and artifacts that rightly belong to egypt and india and does not want to give it back. so what goes around comes around... if u ask me europe is just facing the consequences of trying to civlize the rest of the world and since u did such a great job at it... we colonised ppl decide to return u da favour =)

Frankly, learn to spell correctly, and, for that matter, write correctly, and I will do you the honour of dissecting the above tripe.

Why? We're not a theocracy and we don't control their right to hold their religous beliefs.
Really?

I found out yesterday that in the UK, five year old children are administered a test to see how they are progressing with their education.

One part of the test is "writing a letter to Father Christmas".

Not nominally Christian, eh?

The fact that he was ever chairman at all suggests that the entire institution is rotten to the core--and he only stepped down when attempts at hushing the incident up failed.

He didn't retire in disagrace, of course. He was given one hell of a golden handshake.

Reminds me of the Vatican and the paedophile priest scandal...

Really?

I found out yesterday that in the UK, five year old children are administered a test to see how they are progressing with their education.

One part of the test is "writing a letter to Father Christmas".

Not nominally Christian, eh?

The head of state is the head of a major christian religion. (as it canada's, though steph always has problems with this concept).

Really?

I found out yesterday that in the UK, five year old children are administered a test to see how they are progressing with their education.

One part of the test is "writing a letter to Father Christmas".

Not nominally Christian, eh?
Uh ... "Father Christmas" is based on a pagan ritual, not Christianity. Use of the word "Christmas" is simply an attempt to christianize him.

Why? We're not a theocracy and we don't control their right to hold their religous beliefs.

Because it represents our recognition of an intrusion upon the sovereignty, both religious and political, of the United Kingdom.

Uh ... "Father Christmas" is based on a pagan ritual, not Christianity. Use of the word "Christmas" is simply an attempt to christianize him.
Certainly not a Buddhist or Islamic figure though.

Uh ... "Father Christmas" is based on a pagan ritual, not Christianity. Use of the word "Christmas" is simply an attempt to christianize him.

You could say the same about easter in the UK, what with the eggs and whatnot.

Father Christmas is Santa Claus. Allegedly St. Nicholas. This is what I was told, as a youth, in school, by a vicar of the church of england.

Really?

I found out yesterday that in the UK, five year old children are administered a test to see how they are progressing with their education.

One part of the test is "writing a letter to Father Christmas".

Not nominally Christian, eh?

I assume you're refering to SATs? There was a lot of concern about the stress that testing five year olds would cause so they're deliberately designed to discrete so the children don't even realise that they're being tested. Asking them to write a letter to Father Christmas seems like a good way to do that.

Incidently I never denied that we were a nominally Christian country, I denied that we we a theocracy.

The Netherlands, which has cut immigration in half since 2001, is deporting 26,000 rejected asylum seekers and keeping new arrivals in detention camps. Under proposed legislation, women will be banned from wearing the burka anywhere in public, not just in schools and public buildings as French legislation has it. "I believe we have been far too tolerant for too long, especially being too tolerant of intolerance, and we only got intolerance back," said Member of Dutch Parliament Geert Wilders, who has been forced to live in safe houses because of Islamist death threats. According to a recent Pew Global Attitudes poll, 51% of the Dutch view Muslims unfavourably.
That's a very good idea actually... we should have that over here as well! :mad:
The only thing this burka serves is to suppress the females and keep them isolated. We can't let this going on!

Because it represents our recognition of an intrusion upon the sovereignty, both religious and political, of the United Kingdom.

Nope. They hold no actual power, they simply represent Muslims, a bit like a union but with less striking and better music.

The head of state is the head of a major christian religion. (as it canada's, though steph always has problems with this concept).

She isn't head of the CofE, she's 'Defender of the Faith'.

Amusingly Prince Charles offered to change the title to 'Defender of the Faiths when he becomes King but the other religions said they didn't want him.:p

Nope. They hold no actual power, they simply represent Muslims, a bit like a union but with less striking and better music.

Nonetheless they represent an authority to which nationals, who incidentally ought to be deported, adhere to in precedence to the sovereign church and political authority, and an establishment that is inherently un-British.

When I read the title of the topic, I was shocked and concerned. After reading what the laws actually entail, I see no problems. People need to learn that they must conform to the laws of their new country.
A sane response to a silly thread ?
:fluffle:

maybe its just fair.... after all europeans colonised muslim lands for hundreds of years telling bullshit bullshit bullshit we colonised ppl decide to return u da favour =)

Wrongwrongwrong. The Muslims invaded Hellenic Anatolia. The Muslims drove out North Africa's original inhabitants. The Muslims seized Constantinople. The Muslims conquered Serbia, Bulgaria, Crete, Greece, Sicily, Spain...

They invaded France and they laid siege to Vienna. The North African Barbary pirates terrorised the Meditteranean and took Europeans and Americans as slaves into the 1800s. The Dar al'Islam is no sub-Saharan Africa, mate. We don't owe them. They owe us.

Wrongwrongwrong. The Muslims invaded Hellenic Anatolia. The Muslims drove out North Africa's original inhabitants. The Muslims seized Constantinople. The Muslims conquered Serbia, Bulgaria, Crete, Greece, Sicily, Spain...

They invaded France and they laid siege to Vienna. The North African Barbary pirates terrorised the Meditteranean and took Europeans and Americans as slaves into the 1800s. The Dar al'Islam is no sub-Saharan Africa, mate. We don't owe them. They owe us.
:eek:

Dude. Get over it! ROFLMAO! :p

Wrongwrongwrong. The Muslims invaded Hellenic Anatolia. The Muslims drove out North Africa's original inhabitants. The Muslims seized Constantinople. The Muslims conquered Serbia, Bulgaria, Crete, Greece, Sicily, Spain...

They invaded France and they laid siege to Vienna. The North African Barbary pirates terrorised the Meditteranean and took Europeans and Americans as slaves into the 1800s. The Dar al'Islam is no sub-Saharan Africa, mate. We don't owe them. They owe us.

Incidentally, their homelands, were originally pagan, and were converted by Arabic imperialism. The irony is exquisite no?

She isn't head of the CofE, she's 'Defender of the Faith'.


She's supreme governor of the church of england, it's in the articles of religion in the back of the BCP.

It's titular, but real nonetheless.

I presume you're not c of e, so I'll allow the oversight.

When I read the title of the topic, I was shocked and concerned. After reading what the laws actually entail, I see no problems. People need to learn that they must conform to the laws of their new country.


Not conform, no. Just as long as ideals and that freedom of speech is accepted by all, then thats end of problem. To demand a positive opinion or to demand non-negative expression of one's beliefs is fascist. We are not talking about a majority of Muslim's here, this is a small band of extremist assholes that are demanding resistance of opinion expression.

It is interesting to debate with others and to express our ideals with each other. Please, lets not ruin the world by demanding what can and can't be said. I don't understand how people can demand non-expression and then enforce their discust at this act by killing and commiting violent acts. The Muslims I know are not this short-sighted.

Nonetheless they represent an authority to which nationals, who incidentally ought to be deported, adhere to in precedence to the sovereign church and political authority, and an establishment that is inherently un-British.

'nationals should deported'? Eh? Nationals of where?

Incidently as an Atheist I never adhere to our sovreign church, should I be deported?

God, where's your damned tinfoil hat? Keruvalia, ignore this guy. He's just trying to bait you.

Yeah I get that a lot around here. Considering it's coming from the guy who demands we call all Middle-Easterners "Arabs", I can chuckle, shake my head, and not reply.

Reminds me of the Vatican and the paedophile priest scandal...

When I see people talking about the horrors that were appoved by the Moslem Caliphate I'll start taking claims that the Pope is pro-paedophilia seriously.

Not that the Catholic Church actually has anything to do with the problems Islam is causing. This is a favourite of the Islamic apologist. Throwing up irrelevant wrongs perpetrated by contemporaries, as if it makes the Muslims' ones okay.

Incidently as an Atheist I never adhere to our sovreign church, should I be deported?

I believe you are covered by the acts of conscience. They could be repealed at any time however.

She's supreme governor of the church of england, it's in the articles of religion in the back of the BCP.

It's titular, but real nonetheless.

I presume you're not c of e, so I'll allow the oversight.

Meh, fair enough.

I believe you are covered by the acts of conscience. They could be repealed at any time however.

I'm afraid you've lost me, what are the acts of conscience?

'nationals should deported'? Eh? Nationals of where?

Incidently as an Atheist I never adhere to our sovreign church, should I be deported?

British yet Islamic nationals, whilst in relation to where, as far as possible from Britain.

Secondly, no, since you do not adhere to a faith that requires one to recognise an external authority as superior to the sovereignty of the Church of England.

We are not talking about a majority of Muslim's here, this is a small band of extremist assholes that are demanding resistance of opinion expression.
I have yet to see any real evidence of this. In virtually every country where Islam is the dominant religion, the "majority" allows free reign to what I consider to be "extremists," and in most of the larger Muslim countries, the "extremists" are in charge.

Yeah I get that a lot around here. Considering it's coming from the guy who demands we call all Middle-Easterners "Arabs", I can chuckle, shake my head, and not reply.
Well, Keru, you have to admit that you're essentially assimilated into Western culture, and you would be killed as a blasphemer and heretic in places like rural Pakistan.

The fact that he was ever chairman at all suggests that the entire institution is rotten to the core--and he only stepped down when attempts at hushing the incident up failed.

He didn't retire in disagrace, of course. He was given one hell of a golden handshake.

When I see people talking about the horrors that were appoved by the Moslem Caliphate I'll start taking claims that the Pope is pro-paedophilia seriously.

Not that the Catholic Church actually has anything to do with the problems Islam is causing. This is a favourite of the Islamic apologist. Throwing up irrelevant wrongs perpetrated by contemporaries, as if it makes the Muslims' ones okay.

The circumstances are the same. I was merely pointing out that if this is your reason for being against Islam you should be against Catholicism as well or risk accusations of hypocrisy.

:eek:

Dude. Get over it! ROFLMAO! :p

Sure. As soon as you get over the fact that Mohammed was a murdering demagogue, slavery, Christianity in America...

British yet Islamic nationals, whilst in relation to where, as far as possible from Britain.

Secondly, no, since you do not adhere to a faith that requires one to recognise an external authority as superior to the sovereignty of the Church of England.

That's the Catholics, other Protestant Christians, Hindus and Sikhs out though, not to mention the Muslims. We're going to be awfully lonely you know...

The circumstances are the same. I was merely pointing out that if this is your reason for being against Islam you should be against Catholicism as well or risk accusations of hypocrisy.

Who says I'm not against Catholicism? You're saying I can't criticize to corrupt Muslim Council of Britain without criticizing corruption in the Church?

Fine. Then you can't defend Islam without also defending the Church and/or white Europeans.

I have yet to see any real evidence of this. In virtually every country where Islam is the dominant religion, the "majority" allows free reign to what I consider to be "extremists," and in most of the larger Muslim countries, the "extremists" are in charge.

I don't know if there's evidence for this either! The Muslim individuals I am and have been acquainted with are not (or have not appeared to be) demanding of my respect for their icons and religion. They have been tolerant of my atheism and have always been interested to talk about our differences of opinions. I think your current perception is a product of an unnecessary schism between Muslims and people of other beliefs because of recent wars and acts of terrorism. I can't believe I'm the only atheist that doesn't believe they should be rounded up and gassed like badgers.

I don't know if there's evidence for this either! The Muslim individuals I am and have been acquainted with are not (or have not appeared to be) demanding of my respect for their icons and religion. They have been tolerant of my atheism and have always been interested to talk about our differences of opinions. I think your current perception is a product of an unnecessary schism between Muslims and people of other beliefs because of recent wars and acts of terrorism. I can't believe I'm the only atheist that doesn't believe they should be rounded up and gassed like badgers.

Well, I've seen plenty of atheists on this forum who believe that people with any religious beliefs should be lobotomized or gassed like badgers.

You haven't been to places like Pakistan, where your life wouldn't be worth a penny if you were to announce your atheism on the streets.

Well, Keru, you have to admit that you're essentially assimilated into Western culture, and you would be killed as a blasphemer and heretic in places like rural Pakistan.

Yes, I know. That's why I'll never go there. :)

Who says I'm not against Catholicism? You're saying I can't criticize to corrupt Muslim Council of Britain without criticizing corruption in the Church?

Fine. Then you can't defend Islam without also defending the Church and/or white Europeans.

I defend the Catholic church as a whole (although I disagree with most of their opinions) as i don't think we should judge the whole structure and its followers by the actions of a few.

Are you willing to do the same?

Well, Keru, you have to admit that you're essentially assimilated into Western culture, and you would be killed as a blasphemer and heretic in places like rural Pakistan.
I wouldn't fancy my chances in rural Louisiana or Montana. :sniper:

Well, I've seen plenty of atheists on this forum who believe that people with any religious beliefs should be lobotomized or gassed like badgers.

You haven't been to places like Pakistan, where your life wouldn't be worth a penny if you were to announce your atheism on the streets.


Because others feel I should be gassed because of my beliefs doesn't mean I should equally wish to gas those whose opinions differ from mine. I am happy to have people believe what they bloody want, differences of opinion is what makes this world an interesting place. I think others should be accepting but the world aint perfect is it. Its a shame.

I wouldn't fancy my chances in rural Louisiana or Montana. :sniper:
Can you remember the last time someone in the US was killed by Christian Fundamentalists on the street for saying, "God does not exist"?

Now, go and try that in an area swimming with Deobandis. You won't be coming home, except in a plastic trash bag.

That's the Catholics, other Protestant Christians, Hindus and Sikhs out though, not to mention the Muslims. We're going to be awfully lonely you know...

In relation to Catholocism, there happens to be legislation afforidng them, and other protestant denominations, the right to remain in the Uk, whilst I would be exquisitely ecstatic to dispense with Hinduism and Sikhism from Britain concurrent to Islam.

Can you remember the last time someone in the US was killed by Christian Fundamentalists on the street for saying, "God does not exist"?
In those parts, you don't need to say anything. Place is crawling with homosexual gun nuts. Don't lie to me. I've seen Southern Comfort. And that other movie, with the guys on a canoe trip. :mad:

:p

In relation to Catholocism, there happens to be legislation afforidng them, and other protestant denominations, the right to remain in the Uk, whilst I would be exquisitely ecstatic to dispense with Hinduism and Sikhism from Britain concurrent to Islam.

Well if you do this I'm guessing a lot of Atheists and some Christians will leave as well because this sounds like the preamble to a theocracy...

In those parts, you don't need to say anything. Place is crawling with homosexual gun nuts. Don't lie to me. I've seen Southern Comfort. And that other movie, with the guys on a canoe trip. :mad:

:p

Oh, I've been all over the deep South, and never seen anything like it is in Deliverance or Southern Comfort.

Even met a lot of inbred people in Appalachia.

Sure, they might not like the idea that you're an atheist, but they won't kill you.

Maybe you watch too many movies. They aren't a good reference for reality.

And that other movie, with the guys on a canoe trip. :mad:

:p

Deliverance man. Burt Reynolds and a nasty leg gash.

I wouldn't fancy my chances in rural Louisiana or Montana.
Huh? Find me a news report of a Christian killing an atheist for his/her beliefs, please. There may indeed be violent people who claim to be Christians, but I don't know of any.

Deliverance man. Burt Reynolds and a nasty leg gash.
Yeah, that was it.

Movies make me as well-informed on America as my debate opponents are on Islam. :D

Well if you do this I'm guessing a lot of Atheists and some Christians will leave as well because this sounds like the preamble to a theocracy...

Nope, I am not religious in the slightest.

The placards shown in the protests in a cetain european capital say it all-
"MURDER THOSE WHO INSULT OUR PROPHET OF PEACE"
"BEHEAD THOSE WHO QUESTION ISLAM"
"BEHEAD THOS WHO INSULT ISLAM"
"FREEDOM GO TO HELL"
"YOU'LL COME CRAWLING BACK WHEN THE MUHAJADEEN COME RUNNING"
"EUROPE YOU WILL GET YOUR 9/11"
"FREEDOM OPF SPEACH=FREEDOM TO INSULT ISLAM"
"EUROPE IS THE CANCER, ISLAM IS THE ANSWER"
"EUROPE, ISLAM IS COMING"

If we are prepared to tolerate this then we have got to ask serious questions.
I have no problem with Muslims per se, but I do have a problem with the police doing nothing about this incitement to murder and blatant racism. I am an athiest and would not be allowed to hold a placard that said "BEHEAD ALL MUSLIMS", and rightly so, but they should not be allowed to do what they like for the simple fact that they are Muslim. If you dont like Europe leave.

The placards shown in the protests in a cetain european capital say it all-
"MURDER THOSE WHO INSULT OUR PROPHET OF PEACE"
"BEHEAD THOSE WHO QUESTION ISLAM"
"BEHEAD THOS WHO INSULT ISLAM"
"FREEDOM GO TO HELL"
"YOU'LL COME CRAWLING BACK WHEN THE MUHAJADEEN COME RUNNING"
"EUROPE YOU WILL GET YOUR 9/11"
"FREEDOM OPF SPEACH=FREEDOM TO INSULT ISLAM"
"EUROPE IS THE CANCER, ISLAM IS THE ANSWER"
"EUROPE, ISLAM IS COMING"

If we are prepared to tolerate this then we have got to ask serious questions.
I have no problem with Muslims per se, but I do have a problem with the police doing nothing about this incitement to murder and blatant racism. I am an athiest and would not be allowed to hold a placard that said "BEHEAD ALL MUSLIMS", and rightly so, but they should not be allowed to do what they like for the simple fact that they are Muslim. If you dont like Europe leave.

And the police are using CCTV footage to track those responsible, what are you complaining about?

Nope, I am not religious in the slightest.

I don't think a society that kicked out all non-Christians could become anything else.

Movies make me as well-informed on America as my debate opponents are on Islam. :D

The many issues raised here refer to the recent extreme action of Muslim extremists that is clearly abhorent and antisocial. One doesn't need to understand a thing about Islam to comment on this irrational behaviour. I am sure that if Muhammad also believed the acts commited (cartoons) were as bad as these extremists believe, then he himself wouldn't have acted so gratuitously.

Dear god...

It genuinely disgusts me to see people, posters who I used to respect, actually supporting the openly racist and bigoted statements of the OP. Many of you seem to think that a minority represents a majority, and that is just blinkered and as bad as the OP himself.

For shame.

Dear god...

It genuinely disgusts me to see people, posters who I used to respect, actually supporting the openly racist and bigoted statements of the OP. Many of you seem to think that a minority represents a majority, and that is just blinkered and as bad as the OP himself.

For shame.

It is only because they realize now that it is a war.

It is only because they realize now that it is a war.

No it is not a war, in the same way that the 'War on terror' isn't a war.

No it is not a war, in the same way that the 'War on terror' isn't a war.
It is a war between civilizations.

It is only because they realize now that it is a war.

OTT man, I've already said that there is a divide now because of recent wars and acts but 'war' is exaggeration. Many extreme opinions, on both sides, but a war it aint.

It is a war between civilizations.

I would concur actually, the antipathy between the west and Islam is growing inexorably.

I back the Eurpoeans in this case. If you coem to anotehr country, you need to respect it! Muslims in the middle east always try to talk about European and Americans as well as Christians and Jews, well now they know what it is like. They might not like free speech, but they better deal with it, becasue that is a right many people hold to heart. How dare they make cartoons depicting the hollocause when it was DENMARK not Isreal or even a jewish person who has made the cartoon. If this cuases a war between Eurpoe and the Middle East, so be it. Were feed up with then not respecting us, yet they think we should respect them. :headbang:

I would concur actually, the antipathy between the west and Islam is growing inexorably.
Yes, we are not all at war yet, nor do all realize that it is a war.

But the war began a while back, and stopped for a while, and then Osama resumed it.

Little by little, more Muslims came to his view of things (which is the salafist view of things).

The West didn't really react until 911, even though the war had already begun. And most Muslims didn't know a war had started, either.

But it's growing. And it will only end when one is left.

I back the Eurpoeans in this case. If you coem to anotehr country, you need to respect it! Muslims in the middle east always try to talk about European and Americans as well as Christians and Jews, well now they know what it is like. They might not like free speech, but they better deal with it, becasue that is a right many people hold to heart. How dare they make cartoons depicting the hollocause when it was DENMARK not Isreal or even a jewish person who has made the cartoon. If this cuases a war between Eurpoe and the Middle East, so be it. Were feed up with then not respecting us, yet they think we should respect them. :headbang:

Which part of 'This article is a fake' do you not understand?

Good god people - there is no goddamn war, for gods sake. There is a small, albeit, influential number of fanatics and extremists who wish to agitate and attack the West for various reasons, but the vast majority of Muslims do not wish for any type of conflict. I will bold this next part for clarity:

By stating that there is a conflict between the two groups, you are playing right into the fanatics hands.

It is a war between civilizations.

In that case it's only a war in the same way as the war on litter and the war on drugs.

I would concur actually, the antipathy between the west and Islam is growing inexorably.

Rubbish. So where is this 'war' man? How is it manifesting itself as a war.

In that case it's only a war in the same way as the war on litter and the war on drugs.

Don't forget the War on Poverty and the War on Crime. Or the recent innovation, the War on Porn.

War. HUH. What is it good for?... well, decorating one's political-social rhetoric, that's what!

War. HUH. What is it good for?... well, decorating one's political-social rhetoric, that's what!

If my jolt account was working properly I'd sig that.:p

Actually, hey, in Iran, and Saudi Arabia, isn't it illegal to carry a bible? And, don't women have to wear like, headscarves and stuff? Even if they aren't like, Iranian? I don't see Europe going over there and saying "you can't do this in your own country." I just see them saying, "we want you to respect our traditions and our laws whilst you are in our countries."

Insular communities are more susceptible to the rise of extremism. Furthermore, such insular communities actively discourage language acquisition. This leads to reliance on government agencies etc. for survival, which in turn leads to extreme poverty, and a sense of hopelessness.

Such communities also make it easier to hide crimes. I'm against insular communities of all kinds.

here here!

well, in my opinion we're quickly moving towards world war 3, but this time itll be a civil war. Because it may not seem like it from the outset, but more and more europeans are getting angrier about the situation even if they cannot say anything through fear of prosecution for racism. Talk about a violation of human rights - no free speech. And one more thing that i really hate, Britain does it especially, is that if a white european person makes a slightly racist comment they are dropped on by the police force like a tonne weight, yet muslims can say whatever they want about us (London Protests) and get away with it.

well, in my opinion we're quickly moving towards world war 3, but this time itll be a civil war. Because it may not seem like it from the outset, but more and more europeans are getting angrier about the situation even if they cannot say anything through fear of prosecution for racism. Talk about a violation of human rights - no free speech. And one more thing that i really hate, Britain does it especially, is that if a white european person makes a slightly racist comment they are dropped on by the police force like a tonne weight, yet muslims can say whatever they want about us (London Protests) and get away with it.

How many times do I have to say this? The police are using CCTV footage to track down the protesters who called for murder and terror attacks. Abu Hamza was found guilty and sent to prison.

Compare this to Nick Griffin and Mark Collette who were both found innocent despite making blatantly racist remarks.

Please bear reality in mind before posting.

War. HUH. What is it good for?

The last couple have been great for US businesses.

well, in my opinion we're quickly moving towards world war 3, but this time itll be a civil war. Because it may not seem like it from the outset, but more and more europeans are getting angrier about the situation even if they cannot say anything through fear of prosecution for racism. Talk about a violation of human rights - no free speech. And one more thing that i really hate, Britain does it especially, is that if a white european person makes a slightly racist comment they are dropped on by the police force like a tonne weight, yet muslims can say whatever they want about us (London Protests) and get away with it.
Ahh, but don't you remember the old adadge?

"One law for the lion and the lamb is tyranny!" :D

The last couple have been great for US businesses.
And your proof of this?

What I mean to say is that, when Europe starts blaming all their problems on a single group of people identified only by their religion, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside because I know, from history, that only good things can come from this sort of action!

I mean let's face it, Europe's culture isn't looking for a fight!

They just want lebensraum!