NationStates Jolt Archive


I have had ENOUGH of the United Kingdom! (no flame intended)

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Random Kingdom
16-02-2006, 20:37
As you may not know, I'm 14, so you might think I'm being extremely bigheaded when I say "I have had ENOUGH of the United Kingdom". Unfortunately, in today's world, other people's issues affect even the suffrage-challenged. I can tell you for free and without intention of trolling that if I was offered permanent residence in a Canadian or New Zealand youth hostel (yes, a youth HOSTEL) I would accept straight away.

The problems I have with my nation are:
Many of the civil rights we fought our countrymen for are being systematically eroded... by US.
Our Prime Minister is becoming less of a British politician and more of an American installation every day.
Our nation is woefully biased against Muslims. In fact, the entire European Union (including Denmark for the record) is unnecessarily biased.
We have a state religion, and our school is only refusing to force students to pray "like good proper deprogrammed Christians" by a HAIR.
New Labour is systematically dropping each and every single one of its election promises.
The line of difference between the Labour and Conservative parties is blurring every day, with a liberal Tory and fascist Labour colliding into each other.
Here, in our wonderful nation of civil rights and freedom of speech, you can be banned from saying GRASS. Say that aloud, GRASS. Do you feel any more thuggish for saying GRASS?
You can't use your own front door in extreme situations.
Adultism is king. Shopkeepers believe that they can control their customers with the former great liberator, MUSIC.
It brings a tear to my eye when I hear of LOYAL, FELLOW BRITS losing their hard-won civil rights because of terrorism.
And how about the nearest police hotline being, say, 50km away?


We are becoming less of the type of nation that would look out for its citizens, and more and more like Stalin's Soviet Union, or even Orwell's 1984.

What do you think?
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 20:40
I think you should come to school in Canada.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 20:41
I agree. Is it me or do only the conservatives have good ideas?
I'm a 13 year old and I'm considering moving to japan.
I'm just sick of this EU question. Just get rid of them.
The UK was once a great contry. Let's prove that George Bush's husband (Tony Blair, Duh!) hasn't made us the 51st state of america.
Mariehamn
16-02-2006, 20:41
What do you think?
UK politics is quirky and I don't quite understand it.
Which, is why I'll leave it to the likes of UKites to deal with it.
Don't really have any problems with anything you said though. After all, perception is a choice.
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 20:43
Yes. There is a state religion. Get used to it. If you don't like state religions move to the US.
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 20:44
Yes. There is a state religion. Get used to it. If you don't like state religions move to the US.
They have a state religion; they just don't come out and say it! :D
Safalra
16-02-2006, 20:45
What do you think?
I think you sound just like I did at 14. Disturbingly so. (Except the bit about terrorism, which wasn't such an issue before 11th September.) The solution is to join the LibDems as a tempoary measure while you work out how to fix all the world's problems. By the way, as of now you're my new favourite NSGeneralite.
Mariehamn
16-02-2006, 20:46
They have a state religion; they just don't come out and say it! :D
Silly Canadians. Like they know. :p
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 20:47
It brings a tear to my eye when I hear of LOYAL, FELLOW BRITS losing their hard-won civil rights because of terrorism.
Like internment without trial and that sort of thing?
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 20:47
Silly Canadians. Like they know. :p
They know... oh, how they know... heh... :D
Yossarian Lives
16-02-2006, 20:48
As you may not know, I'm 14, so you might think I'm being extremely bigheaded when I say "I have had ENOUGH of the United Kingdom". Unfortunately, in today's world, other people's issues affect even the suffrage-challenged. I can tell you for free and without intention of trolling that if I was offered permanent residence in a Canadian or New Zealand youth hostel (yes, a youth HOSTEL) I would accept straight away.

The problems I have with my nation are:
Many of the civil rights we fought our countrymen for are being systematically eroded... by US.
Our Prime Minister is becoming less of a British politician and more of an American installation every day.
Our nation is woefully biased against Muslims. In fact, the entire European Union (including Denmark for the record) is unnecessarily biased.
We have a state religion, and our school is only refusing to force students to pray "like good proper deprogrammed Christians" by a HAIR.
New Labour is systematically dropping each and every single one of its election promises.
The line of difference between the Labour and Conservative parties is blurring every day, with a liberal Tory and fascist Labour colliding into each other.
Here, in our wonderful nation of civil rights and freedom of speech, you can be banned from saying GRASS. Say that aloud, GRASS. Do you feel any more thuggish for saying GRASS?
You can't use your own front door in extreme situations.
Adultism is king. Shopkeepers believe that they can control their customers with the former great liberator, MUSIC.
It brings a tear to my eye when I hear of LOYAL, FELLOW BRITS losing their hard-won civil rights because of terrorism.
And how about the nearest police hotline being, say, 50km away?


We are becoming less of the type of nation that would look out for its citizens, and more and more like Stalin's Soviet Union, or even Orwell's 1984.

What do you think?

I agree in broad terms about the terrorism legislation being abused, but I don't think it's part of some master plan to attack muslims. They've also used it to get rid of protesters on that square opposite parliament.
The state religion, I don't see as being abig thing. It's not as all pervasive as it used to be. Regarding the Christian schools, there are plenty of Muslim schools etc. so i don't think this is biased.
I don't understand some of your other points: Front doors? Music as mind control? Sounds like tin-foil hat time.
An archie
16-02-2006, 20:49
Yay for the revolution!
Yay
yay
yay
yay!
yay
yay
yay
yay!
Tactical Grace
16-02-2006, 20:49
You're right, I too am fed up of the way this country is run. We have a PM stuck in an abusive homosexual relationship with a fascist, we have stupid anti-terrorist legislation, and now the government is negotiating with Microsoft to get a back door into their new OS so they can access UK residents' computers. Ugh. :mad:
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 20:50
I don't understand some of your other points: Front doors? Music as mind control? Sounds like tin-foil hat time.
TIN FOIL HATS! Get yer tin foil hats! Buy now and save, save, save!
Mariehamn
16-02-2006, 20:53
They know... oh, how they know... heh... :D
They will know as soon as the United Church of America sends a Crusade right into Toronto, Quebec, and BC, then you'll know! You'll know as the lakes swell with the fresh blood of heathen Canadians! ;)
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 20:53
You cannot forget the evil Political Correctness!
Although interesting fact, politically correct is not politically correct. The politically correct term for politically correct is culturally sensitive.

We're gonna get swarmed by a multi-cultural non-british society
Curse all Asylum seekers and foreign immigrants!
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 20:53
You're right, I too am fed up of the way this country is run. We have a PM stuck in an abusive homosexual relationship with a fascist, we have stupid anti-terrorist legislation, and now the government is negotiating with Microsoft to get a back door into their new OS so they can access UK residents' computers. Ugh. :mad:

It's not nice to talk about Iqbal Sacranie that way.
Szanth
16-02-2006, 20:54
This is, of course, all because the royal family is still secretly running things, and bribing Blair with tea and crumpets. Stupid inbreds.
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 20:54
They will know as soon as the United Church of America sends a Crusade right into Toronto, Quebec, and BC, then you'll know! You'll know as the lakes swell with the fresh blood of heathen Canadians! ;)
But they'll have to get passed the wave of marijuana smoke and the hordes of homosexuals marauding through the streets... :)
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 20:55
If you live in Britain and don't like the present government, get off your arse and vote Conservative! Nothing else can remove Labour from power.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 20:56
This is, of course, all because the royal family is still secretly running things, and bribing Blair with tea and crumpets. Stupid inbreds.

O please! I'd far sooner trust Her Maj to run the country than Tony Blair.

GOD SAVE QUEEN BESS
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 20:56
If you live in Britain and don't like the present government, get off your arse and vote Conservative! Nothing else can remove Labour from power.
What about a shoe horn? :D
Baratstan
16-02-2006, 20:56
Here, in our wonderful nation of civil rights and freedom of speech, you can be banned from saying GRASS. Say that aloud, GRASS. Do you feel any more thuggish for saying GRASS?

Really? How come?
Tactical Grace
16-02-2006, 20:56
If you live in Britain and don't like the present government, get off your arse and vote Conservative! Nothing else can remove Labour from power.
Heh, you think people dont? I have voted, and would consider voting, for anyone but New Labour.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 20:57
What about a shoe horn? :D

You'd need an awful lot of shoe horns...
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 20:58
The UK's state religion is currently christianity.

I'm considering that due to the invasion of the foreign masses, the EU and the war on iraq, every last asylum seeker/invader outnumbers true Britons, meaning that it should be Muslim.

Okay, everybody who's not British get out of the boat. That includes everybody from America, Ireland and other countries. 'Cept canada, Russia, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and any other countries that are apart of the commonwealth. Robert Mugabe's an exception, he kills innocent people for fun.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 20:58
Heh, you think people dont? I have voted, and would consider voting, for anyone but New Labour.

Did you vote Tory? If you didn't (and it wasn't in Scotland, Wales or Cornwall) then you probably helped to keep Labour in power.
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 20:59
You'd need an awful lot of shoe horns...
Or just a gigantic one. Or... get the ex-Liberal staffers who work on Martin's re-election campaign to do one for the Labour Party! :D They'd be guaranteed to lose!
Mariehamn
16-02-2006, 21:00
But they'll have to get passed the wave of marijuana smoke and the hordes of homosexuals marauding through the streets... :)
Crusaders know no fear! The majijuana smoke is obviously the mistaken breath of God Himself! As far as the homosexuals go, they will be recruited into the Church for further campaigns. They have very good utility as interogators, cooks, and uniform designers. ;)
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:01
Heh, you think people dont? I have voted, and would consider voting, for anyone but New Labour.

But new labur would still win.

Since george and tony got together, Tony's learnt a few tricks.

Elction fraud, how to put the economy into a recession, how to become upopular, etc...

Oh and I'm glad Cheney shot a Republican.
And does noone find it ironic that cheney's daughter is a lesbian, while the pres. is trying to outlaw gay marriage?

George Washington seriously f**ked up America.
Yossarian Lives
16-02-2006, 21:01
Personally I think a state religion is a good thing. Well depends on the circumstances. Whenever a religion is allowed to exist without threat then it becomes a good thing. It just becomes sluggish and moderate and reflects the views of the majority. When you get a threat real or imagined like Christianity in the US feels with separation of church and state, or how Islam feels, that's when you get wacko fundamentalism.
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 21:02
Crusaders know no fear! The majijuana smoke is obviously the mistaken breath of God Himself! As far as the homosexuals go, they will be recruited into the Church for further campaigns. They have very good utility as interogators, cooks, and uniform designers. ;)
And the rest of us heathens who generally don't give a damn and only surface out of our igloos in order to go vote once every election period?! :p
Tactical Grace
16-02-2006, 21:03
Did you vote Tory? If you didn't (and it wasn't in Scotland, Wales or Cornwall) then you probably helped to keep Labour in power.
I voted Conservative in 2001, and the Liberal Democrat candidate came second in my constituency, with the Conservative a distant third.

In 2005, the Liberal Democrat won, but at that point I was living in another constituency, where I voted Liberal Democrat and the guy came a very distant second. The Conservative candidate almost lost his deposit, and the Labour guy won with a communist "election" majority.

It isn't that clear cut. There are places where no-one ever votes Conservative, so there is no point.
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 21:04
Personally I think a state religion is a good thing. Well depends on the circumstances. Whenever a religion is allowed to exist without threat then it becomes a good thing. It just becomes sluggish and moderate and reflects the views of the majority. When you get a threat real or imagined like Christianity in the US feels with separation of church and state, or how Islam feels, that's when you get wacko fundamentalism.

That's true. Look at the church of england. They are the most agreeable moderate religion in the world short of buddhist types.

You don't even have to believe in god to be a member.
Krakozha
16-02-2006, 21:05
I wouldn't go as far as calling the UK a communist regime. But Blair DOES act like Bush's lap dog, ready to kiss Bush's ass at a moments notice. I don't live and have never lived in the UK, so I can't really comment on the education system, and, well, I'm politically illiterate for the most part. But I DID notice the amount of brown nosing that went on in Downing St., and how much Blair looks up to American politics, so I do see how it could all happen that way.

Put it this way, consider yourself lucky you don't actually live IN the US, like me (I'm Irish BTW). America was on the verge of becoming a police state post 9-11. Everyone was paranoid of people with a skin tone slightly darker than their own, people were suffering from depression because they saw the whole thing on TV, not a thought for the families who lost someone! They're fighting an unjust war, and running their economy into the ground because of it Oh, and Cheney gets away scot free after shooting some guy on a hunting trip - me? I'd be taken in for reckless endangerment. Talk about corrupt politicians!
Pure Metal
16-02-2006, 21:06
-snip-
better than it was before new labour.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:06
I voted Conservative in 2001, and the Liberal Democrat candidate came second in my constituency, with the Conservative a distant third.

In 2005, the Liberal Democrat won, but at that point I was living in another constituency, where I voted Liberal Democrat and the guy came a very distant second. The Conservative candidate almost lost his deposit, and the Labour guy won with a communist "election" majority.

It isn't that clear cut. There are places where no-one ever votes Conservative, so there is no point.

Of course there are parts of the country (like Clydeside or Merseyside) where Conservative candidates need armed bodyguards just to make it to the polling booth, but in a majority of constituencies they are the party most likely to get rid of Labour.

What do you think of Cameron btw? Some of the things he's said have made me wince, but overall I think he is definitely the best candidate to improve our position at the next election.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:08
better than it was before new labour.

How so?
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 21:10
How so?
Because it's NOT the same? Heh...
Mariehamn
16-02-2006, 21:12
And the rest of us heathens who generally don't give a damn and only surface out of our igloos in order to go vote once every election period?! :p
You'll be baptised into the United Church of America and grated American citizenship! Muwahahahahaha! :D
Tactical Grace
16-02-2006, 21:14
What do you think of Cameron btw? Some of the things he's said have made me wince, but overall I think he is definitely the best candidate to improve our position at the next election.
I'm not that bothered about the personalities any more, not since the guys in Major's cabinet retired from politics. I just view the parties as lists.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:14
You'll be baptised into the United Church of America and grated American citizenship! Muwahahahahaha! :D

I have a few quick questions.
Why do americans have to swear allegiance to their country every goddamn morning?

And why do americand have daft names like Randy?
Kryozerkia
16-02-2006, 21:17
I have a few quick questions.
Why do americans have to swear allegiance to their country every goddamn morning?

And why do americand have daft names like Randy?
Because the country as a whole is insecure and the people don't have enough common sense to pick good names like Vincent and Percival. :D
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:18
Okay.

Is it true that you can get expeled from a school if you don't pledge allegiance to the US?
Yossarian Lives
16-02-2006, 21:19
That's true. Look at the church of england. They are the most agreeable moderate religion in the world short of buddhist types.

You don't even have to believe in god to be a member.
Of course the holy grail, at least in my opinion, is some sort of variation on the all-inclusive Roman system, but with slightly less of the throwing Christians to lions for not kneeling to images of the emperor.
Pure Metal
16-02-2006, 21:20
How so?
one thing stands out in my mind: economic stability
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:21
What do you think of Cameron btw? Some of the things he's said have made me wince, but overall I think he is definitely the best candidate to improve our position at the next election.

I know it's none of my business but camerons the last chance. If Brown wins the next election then the UK is buggered. I for one will be part of the mass of non-new labour voters that commit suicide if Cameron dosn't win, or there's not a hung parliament.

God bless the Conservatives (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469125)
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:22
I'm not that bothered about the personalities any more, not since the guys in Major's cabinet retired from politics. I just view the parties as lists.

That's a shame, but it's inevitable with the professionalisiation of politics: they all end up the same.

Maybe they shouldn't get paid? Public service should be reward enough...
Missguided power
16-02-2006, 21:22
H...i wouldnt know because I don't live in the UK,I live in the USA-but I watch the news from time to time.
If U all don't like how your countrys run,then why not move?
All goverments have corruption & money-lawndering,thats the way it is....sadlly...but U should at least,for Gods sake-obey the goverment.
I think the thing U should all worry about more is the european union and there parliment....they want to set a one-world goverment up eventally,-it's kind of similar to the usa's goal of world domacracy...The usa is after all a super-power.
let me tell U all my thought on the economy:its going to get worse...before it gets better. Who here thinks that money will, in a few yrs.be no longer needed? Its going to go out,eventally wich is bad!
:( Good luck to all of U,have faith.
Kuehenberg
16-02-2006, 21:22
UK citizens should send tony blair right into the devil's ass.
I have some british friends who want nothing more than to see Blair's head on a pike right in front of the parlament.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:23
I know it's none of my business but camerons the last chance. If Brown wins the next election then the UK is buggered. I for one will be part of the mass of non-new labour voters that commit suicide if Cameron dosn't win, or there's not a hung parliament.

God bless the Conservatives (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469125)

Spread the word!

Do you live in the South East btw?
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:24
H...i wouldnt know because I don't live in the UK,I live in the USA-but I watch the news from time to time.
If U all don't like how your countrys run,then why not move?
All goverments have corruption & money-lawndering,thats the way it is....sadlly...but U should at least,for Gods sake-obey the goverment.
I think the thing U should all worry about more is the european union and there parliment....they want to set a one-world goverment up eventally,-it's kind of similar to the usa's goal of world domacracy...The usa is after all a super-power.
let me tell U all my thought on the economy:its going to get worse...before it gets better. Who here thinks that money will, in a few yrs.be no longer needed? Its going to go out,eventally wich is bad!
:( Good luck to all of U,have faith.

Um yeah, right. This is the UK. Not the USA where you can divorce your parents. Besides, some of us have pride in the little history our country has. We want to preserve it against the evils of Socialism!
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:24
one thing stands out in my mind: economic stability

They haven't undone Conservative economic reforms: hardly their own achievement!

But then again, Brown with tax-and-spend and overregulation is doing his best to destroy the good work.
Quaon
16-02-2006, 21:25
As you may not know, I'm 14, so you might think I'm being extremely bigheaded when I say "I have had ENOUGH of the United Kingdom". Unfortunately, in today's world, other people's issues affect even the suffrage-challenged. I can tell you for free and without intention of trolling that if I was offered permanent residence in a Canadian or New Zealand youth hostel (yes, a youth HOSTEL) I would accept straight away.

The problems I have with my nation are:
Many of the civil rights we fought our countrymen for are being systematically eroded... by US.
Our Prime Minister is becoming less of a British politician and more of an American installation every day.
Our nation is woefully biased against Muslims. In fact, the entire European Union (including Denmark for the record) is unnecessarily biased.
We have a state religion, and our school is only refusing to force students to pray "like good proper deprogrammed Christians" by a HAIR.
New Labour is systematically dropping each and every single one of its election promises.
The line of difference between the Labour and Conservative parties is blurring every day, with a liberal Tory and fascist Labour colliding into each other.
Here, in our wonderful nation of civil rights and freedom of speech, you can be banned from saying GRASS. Say that aloud, GRASS. Do you feel any more thuggish for saying GRASS?
You can't use your own front door in extreme situations.
Adultism is king. Shopkeepers believe that they can control their customers with the former great liberator, MUSIC.
It brings a tear to my eye when I hear of LOYAL, FELLOW BRITS losing their hard-won civil rights because of terrorism.
And how about the nearest police hotline being, say, 50km away?


We are becoming less of the type of nation that would look out for its citizens, and more and more like Stalin's Soviet Union, or even Orwell's 1984.

What do you think?
Wow, I thought it was only America that was so screwed up.
Pure Metal
16-02-2006, 21:27
They haven't undone Conservative economic reforms: hardly their own achievement!

But then again, Brown with tax-and-spend and overregulation is doing his best to destroy the good work.
mm lets go back to boom and bust why not? that was fun.

meh, i really don't care anyway... if things keep getting progressively more right-wing round here i'll be leaving the stinking country for a warmer climate anyway
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 21:27
You know, ever since I started posting on these forums I have been pointing out that Tony Blair and 'new'-labour were a bunch of crypto-fascists.

It seems that the rest of the world is finally catching up to the wisdom that is lacadaemon.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:29
Spread the word!

Do you live in the South East btw?

I think I'm in the east midlands, but what I wouldn't give to get away from where I live. If you look here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/flash_map/html/map05.stm) then you'll see we're a little yellow island, surrounded by a sea of red. Now if only I could get into a blue constituency then I'd be great. But I don't want to leave my friends so...

When I'm older, I'm planning on becoming a Conservative MP. My mums sides are true Old labour, and my dad's are all SNP's. Personally, I'm thinking the best parties are:
Conservatives
UKIP
BNP

May seem extreme, but it won't be extreme enough after what labour's done.
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 21:30
mm lets go back to boom and bust why not? that was fun.


Dude, that was labour party rhetoric. I'll admit that putting interest rates control in the hands of the bank of england was smart. But so was dropping out of the ERM. And what do you think will happen to your stability if britian joins the eurozone, which tony desperately wants (but can't get done.)

Most of the 80s was a period of increased prosperity, with a large underclass caused by the cock-knockery of the 60s and 70s. Esp. the 70s, with Calaghan's attempted destruction of the british economy on a permenant basis.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:33
There are three key people to blame:
New Labour
The USA
The EU

All of them are equally destructive of our once beautiful society.
Kradlumania
16-02-2006, 21:33
I think children should be seen and not herd.
Missguided power
16-02-2006, 21:34
Um yeah, right. This is the UK. Not the USA where you can divorce your parents. Besides, some of us have pride in the little history our country has. We want to preserve it against the evils of Socialism!

Divorace your parents,good point!:rolleyes:
Himm...Just a question,but how many of U like the way tony blair is handling things? I don;t live in the UK so tell me your opinions.:rolleyes:
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:37
Divorace your parents,good point!:rolleyes:
Himm...Just a question,but how many of U like the way tony blair is handling things? I don;t live in the UK so tell me your opinions.:rolleyes:

Tony blair is the most pompous git ever who 'supposedly' believes in a new labour, when most of his palitics are conservative. He is adamant that his Blairtism is the only way forward, when There is countless evidence that, despite occasional mistakes, the conservatives generally have a better grip of things.

I don't think he's handling the uk. I think He's letting george bush play with it, while the EU are dissecting it and New Labour are putting their name everywhere.

Glad I got that off my chest.
Missguided power
16-02-2006, 21:38
There are three key people to blame:
New Labour
The USA
The EU

All of them are equally destructive of our once beautiful society.

I agree with you,even though I live in the usa.
:)
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 21:38
And another thing. Newcastle needs a western bypass extension, but there's "no-money for it."

Aye, but there's fucking money for the olympics though isn't there?

And don't even get me started on the northern assembly that dick-hole forced on the north east.

You know, Tony Blair was my Gran's MP. She said he was an arsehole from the very begining. He should be made to retire to tudhoe.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:39
I think I'm in the east midlands, but what I wouldn't give to get away from where I live. If you look here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/flash_map/html/map05.stm) then you'll see we're a little yellow island, surrounded by a sea of red. Now if only I could get into a blue constituency then I'd be great. But I don't want to leave my friends so...

When I'm older, I'm planning on becoming a Conservative MP. My mums sides are true Old labour, and my dad's are all SNP's. Personally, I'm thinking the best parties are:
Conservatives
UKIP
BNP

May seem extreme, but it won't be extreme enough after what labour's done.

You don't need to move to a blue constituency: turn yours blue! but Chesterfield doesn't look like traditional Tory territory...

How can you list UKIP? That contemptible overblown pressure group denied us about 20 seats in the last election, and never had a hope of winning a single one. I'm personally in favour of EU withdrawal, and so are plenty of Conservative Party members: why doesn't UKIP disband and their members join the Tory Party?
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:41
Because of their other beliefs.
Missguided power
16-02-2006, 21:41
Tony blair is the most pompous git ever who 'supposedly' believes in a new labour, when most of his palitics are conservative. He is adamant that his Blairtism is the only way forward, when There is countless evidence that, despite occasional mistakes, the conservatives generally have a better grip of things.

I don't think he's handling the uk. I think He's letting george bush play with it, while the EU are dissecting it and New Labour are putting their name everywhere.

Glad I got that off my chest.

I see...I agree,george bush is playing with it,but isn't he playing with lots of other things to?
Pure Metal
16-02-2006, 21:41
Dude, that was labour party rhetoric. I'll admit that putting interest rates control in the hands of the bank of england was smart. But so was dropping out of the ERM. And what do you think will happen to your stability if britian joins the eurozone, which tony desperately wants (but can't get done.)

Most of the 80s was a period of increased prosperity, with a large underclass caused by the cock-knockery of the 60s and 70s. Esp. the 70s, with Calaghan's attempted destruction of the british economy on a permenant basis.
well there are positives and negatives of everything. dropping out the ERM may have been a good idea, but then there's black wednesday.
there's the boom and bust policy. using the economy for poltical gain. using war for political gain (yeah thatcher did what bush just did back in the 80s... woot for conservatives never changing).
the underclass of the 80s and 90s was created from the massive cuts and underfunding of the public education system and knocking back of the welfare state, not to mention the millions of unemployed.
yes there was increased prosperity in the 80s, but as a result of world economic boom and boom in the technological sector - moving away from manafacturing and heavy industry to more (competitive) research & high-tech industries. and yet thatcher still managed to have recessions. which we haven't had under blair. and then there's the double-figures inflation, and the only drop in housing market prices for over half a century...

all in all, liberating the labour market from the TUs was a good move, but other than that... things are a lot better now than they were under the tories.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:42
Because of their other beliefs.

Which are?
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:43
And another thing. Newcastle needs a western bypass extension, but there's "no-money for it."

Aye, but there's fucking money for the olympics though isn't there?

And don't even get me started on the northern assembly that dick-hole forced on the north east.

You know, Tony Blair was my Gran's MP. She said he was an arsehole from the very begining. He should be made to retire to tudhoe.

Hear hear my friend.

I suppose that you hate Devolution too? Why the hell should scotland get a parliament, wales get a parliament, Northern Ireland get a parliament, and englands plonked in the middle with the UK parliament?

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray my sould does forever keep,
But if tony blair's in heaven as well,
I pray the lord send me down to hell.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:45
Which are?
Well... (http://www.ukip.org/index.php?page=manifesto2005top&menu=manifesto2005)
I'm currently sick of bureacracy. Who needs it.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:47
Hear hear my friend.

I suppose that you hate Devolution too? Why the hell should scotland get a parliament, wales get a parliament, Northern Ireland get a parliament, and englands plonked in the middle with the UK parliament?

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray my sould does forever keep,
But if tony blair's in heaven as well,
I pray the lord send me down to hell.

Nice poem

Anyway... what else does UKIP believe in?
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 21:48
Wow, you guys make it sound like the apocalypse is nigh.

I fail to see any major difference between the Tories and New Labour, except which side of the commons they sit on. They are convergent on an ever closer view of Politics. As for the Liberal Democrats, they can't even competently organise their own Party, let alone a government. The civil service would run rings around them.

In my home constiuentcy I would never vote against the Labour MP, not that my vote would make any difference. It's been a labour stronghold since forever. The MP, Diane Abbott, is not in bed with the New Labour cronies and frequently rebels against the party line. The Tories are utterly dispised, with the hatred for them only surpassed by that of the Liberal Democrats who single handedly managed screw over everything they touched. Such as the leisure centre thats contract never had a penalty clause, was completed years over schedule and finally had to be closed due to an irreparable structural fault.

If you really hate the policies of the British Government then stop whining and actually do something. Join a party, even labour as I have, and reclaim the Party that has been taken from you. As I am aware there are no age limits to joining a party. Hell, you could even campaign to have the party reinstate clause IV.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:48
Other than the link, Not sure.

I might set up another thread about the three worst things in britain.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:48
Well... (http://www.ukip.org/index.php?page=manifesto2005top&menu=manifesto2005)
I'm currently sick of bureacracy. Who needs it.

So they are ever-so-slightly more right-wing than the Tory Party.

Why vote for them? It reduces the chance of the only viable centre-right party winning an election.
Missguided power
16-02-2006, 21:49
Well... (http://www.ukip.org/index.php?page=manifesto2005top&menu=manifesto2005)
I'm currently sick of bureacracy. Who needs it.
Tell me,why did the UK join the (EU) in the first place?
Why didn't they resist?
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:50
Hell, you could even campaign to have the party reinstate clause IV.

Pigs might fly :D
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:51
Tell me,why did the UK join the (EU) in the first place?
Why didn't they resist?

Because it was sold to the British people as a purely economic project, and its taken us 30 years to realise what it actually means.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:52
Tell me,why did the UK join the (EU) in the first place?
Why didn't they resist?
Because we had Labour in power. Not new labour or Old labour but labour. Where we looked like pushmepullme's and dressed in sunday suits while drinking tea and smelling flowers.

Or more likely had a devastated economy almost as bad as germanies is now.
Kzord
16-02-2006, 21:54
I picked "Things haven't really changed; you're getting paranoid." because I think that the UK has always sucked, and so have all the other countries.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:54
The EU Constitution (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm) is the worst piece of writing ever. Who even needs a constitution. The UK dosn't have one and it's been ok before.

BRING BACK THE DEATH SENTENCE
Missguided power
16-02-2006, 21:55
Because it was sold to the British people as a purely economic project, and its taken us 30 years to realise what it actually means.
I see..unfotunate.
What of the labor,what happened with that?
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:56
I picked "Things haven't really changed; you're getting paranoid." because I think that the UK has always sucked, and so have all the other countries.

Did the UK suck when it ruled a quarter of the earths surface?

Did it suck when we founded america?

Be thankful we colonised america or you might not have been here!
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 21:58
well there are positives and negatives of everything. dropping out the ERM may have been a good idea, but then there's black wednesday.
there's the boom and bust policy. using the economy for poltical gain. using war for political gain (yeah thatcher did what bush just did back in the 80s... woot for conservatives never changing).
the underclass of the 80s and 90s was created from the massive cuts and underfunding of the public education system and knocking back of the welfare state, not to mention the millions of unemployed.
yes there was increased prosperity in the 80s, but as a result of world economic boom and boom in the technological sector - moving away from manafacturing and heavy industry to more (competitive) research & high-tech industries. and yet thatcher still managed to have recessions. which we haven't had under blair. and then there's the double-figures inflation, and the only drop in housing market prices for over half a century...

all in all, liberating the labour market from the TUs was a good move, but other than that... things are a lot better now than they were under the tories.

Well, look, you have to put the conservatives in perspective of the economy they inherited. The UK was the sick old man of Europe, and largely written off. Calaghan lost a vote of no confidence after he admitted in parliament that the traditional methods for stimulating the economy were no longer working. (Deficit spending tax cuts). Plus the economy was crippled with double digit inflation.

Thatcher was put in the odd position of having to enact a 'shock therapy' economic regime, raise taxes and cut spending. There really were no other options at that point. This is partly why welfare and education spending was seemingly cut. (I'll note though that tony never really restored it to pre-thatcher levels). But it worked, and it was thatcher too who cut subsidies to tradtional heavy industry, precipitating the shift in employment that now benefits the UK. You can't just dismiss the economic policies of the tories as "boom and bust" or as completely destructive. And I doubt if tony was handed the treasury back in 1980, he would have had the nutsack to do what was needed to be done.

Did thatcher do some bad stuff? Sure. And we could argue forever about the root causes of the falklands, be it appeasing the National Front, or defense spending cuts. The point is however, that the managment of the economy by the tories is not the "boom and bust" incompetence/political machinations that new labour likes to so disingenously paint it. Moreover, a lot of the boom and bust was caused by ERM - as was the housing collapse - and the need to hold to double digit interest rates because of germany's then booming economy. Arguably, joining the euro could lead to the same result at some point.

And given the length that labour has now been in power, it's also about as relevant as when the tories used to hammer on about the labour government on the late seventies as a reason not to elect labour in the early nineties.

Like I said, new labour have relinquished control of interest rates, which is a move to be lauded. And I respect them for it. But, Gordon has also abandoned his 'golden rule.' When it comes to the economy, they are no better or worse, in general than the last tory administration, they've just been luckier in circumstances.

Oh yah, House prices are probably going to decline in the UK at somepoint in the near future.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 21:58
Because we had Labour in power. Not new labour or Old labour but labour. Where we looked like pushmepullme's and dressed in sunday suits while drinking tea and smelling flowers.

Or more likely had a devastated economy almost as bad as germanies is now.

Ted Heath (a "Tory" supposedly) took us in in 1972...
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 21:59
I realise that most of the french are arrogant,k but why are they choking their country to death with CAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy).

I'm considering declaring the UK officially a continent and the 'Mainland' a lost world stuck in the short lived golden age of socialism.
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 21:59
The EU Constitution (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm) is the worst piece of writing ever. Who even needs a constitution. The UK dosn't have one and it's been ok before.

BRING BACK THE DEATH SENTENCE

The UK has a constitution. :rolleyes:
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 22:00
Tell me,why did the UK join the (EU) in the first place?
Why didn't they resist?Umm... we did... (it was the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) at the time). Why do you think France has such strong sway in the EU, whilst the UK remains relative outcasts. The UK deluded itself that it was still a world superpower after WWII and refused to join the ECSC, and then when it finally tried to it was blocked from entering by France, not once, but TWICE.

Most of Britain's trade is now with the EU, and so any attempt to leave the EU would severely damage the economy as we start to pay tariffs on our imports and exports to and from the EU.
Genaia3
16-02-2006, 22:00
Tell me,why did the UK join the (EU) in the first place?
Why didn't they resist?

Because the EU was originally designed solely to be a system of free trade between member states, not a political unification of nations.
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 22:00
Ted Heath (a "Tory" supposedly) took us in in 1972...

'Tory wet' is the expression you are looking for.
Funky Evil
16-02-2006, 22:01
Many of the civil rights we fought our countrymen for are being systematically eroded... by US.



is that "us" or "US"?
Kzord
16-02-2006, 22:02
Did the UK suck when it ruled a quarter of the earths surface?
Yes.

Did it suck when we founded america?
Yes.

Be thankful we colonised america or you might not have been here!
I don't live in America. I live in England. Like it says to the left of my post. Maybe if you spent more time reading and learning things, you wouldn't think ruling an empire was so cool, and be more into civil rights instead.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:02
The UK has a constitution. :rolleyes:
Not really. The magna Carta dosn't count. The UK has an unwritten constitutin, but they don't class that so...:p NYAH!
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:03
is that "us" or "US"?
Probably us in caps, for dramatic effect. Usually if you were going to put US, as in United states, you'd prelude it with 'the'
Missguided power
16-02-2006, 22:04
The EU Constitution (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm) is the worst piece of writing ever. Who even needs a constitution. The UK dosn't have one and it's been ok before.

BRING BACK THE DEATH SENTENCE
I have to say,after reading some of it-I agree,it's a piece of trash!
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 22:04
Most of Britain's trade is now with the EU, and so any attempt to leave the EU would severely damage the economy as we start to pay tariffs on our imports and exports to and from the EU.

This is nonsense. Plenty of countries have free-trade agreements with the EU, which means that they don't have to pay tariffs. We'd simply become like Mexico or Norway: free trade with the EU without having to pay the costs of membership.
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 22:05
I suppose that you hate Devolution too? Why the hell should scotland get a parliament, wales get a parliament, Northern Ireland get a parliament, and englands plonked in the middle with the UK parliament?


The arguments against a scottish parliament were settled over one hundred years ago by the brilliant A.V. Dicey.

Blair, of course is to stupid and badly read to realize this.

He's nothing more than a fascist.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:05
This is nonsense. Plenty of countries have free-trade agreements with the EU, which means that they don't have to pay tariffs. We'd simply become like Mexico or Norway: free trade with the EU without having to pay the costs of membership.

That's if France and Schroeders half of Germany don't start mardying about. Why do they even have vetoes anyway? Since when were they important?
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 22:06
Not really. The magna Carta dosn't count. The UK has an unwritten constitutin, but they don't class that so...:p NYAH!

The UK doesn't have a single written document. However to say the consitution is unwritten is not entirely correct. The consitution is based in statute, case law and convention.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:07
I have to say,after reading some of it-I agree,it's a piece of trash!
This might interest you. (http://europa.eu.int/index_en.htm)
But i think you'll be bored and know the whole story after the first letter.
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:07
Not really. The magna Carta dosn't count. The UK has an unwritten constitutin, but they don't class that so...:p NYAH!
No.

The UK has an uncodified constitution. Not an unwritten one.

That means it just isn't collected into one document (like in the US), but is spread over several, or many, as well as convention and case law. Most (I think) of the British constitution is written.

And Magna Carta only has 3 clauses or something still in effect, and it's only one out of many documents that could be included in the British constitution.
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 22:08
This is nonsense. Plenty of countries have free-trade agreements with the EU, which means that they don't have to pay tariffs. We'd simply become like Mexico or Norway: free trade with the EU without having to pay the costs of membership.True. But if you take the neo-federalist view then any free-trade agreement with the EU will, eventually, lead to the UK rejoining the EU and political union, due to the spillover effects of the free-trade agreement. The only way to fully retain British sovereignty is disengage completely with the EU.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:09
The UK doesn't have a single written document. However to say the consitution is unwritten is not entirely correct. The consitution is based in statute, case law and convention.
But it is recognised nationally and internationally as an unwritten constitution. I get where you're coming from but since there's nothing called a constituion, or is a synonymn of constitution as an official law binding basic skeleton, the UK's like a bodymould bed.
Missguided power
16-02-2006, 22:10
Because the EU was originally designed solely to be a system of free trade between member states, not a political unification of nations.
I see....
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:10
But it is recognised nationally and internationally as an unwritten constitution.
No it isn't.

It's written nationally and internationally as an unCODIFIED constitution. Big difference.

To say it's unwritten is ill-informed and entirely wrong.


Look, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Constitution)
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:11
No.

The UK has an uncodified constitution. Not an unwritten one.

That means it just isn't collected into one document (like in the US), but is spread over several, or many, as well as convention and case law. Most (I think) of the British constitution is written.

And Magna Carta only has 3 clauses or something still in effect, and it's only one out of many documents that could be included in the British constitution.
Regardless, the world recoginzes that it is unwriteen, from the point it isn't a single document. Unwritten constitutions are basically pieces of legislation that would form a constitution if we wanted to, but then we wouldn't be so flexible, so...
Laenis
16-02-2006, 22:11
You don't need to move to a blue constituency: turn yours blue! but Chesterfield doesn't look like traditional Tory territory...

How can you list UKIP? That contemptible overblown pressure group denied us about 20 seats in the last election, and never had a hope of winning a single one. I'm personally in favour of EU withdrawal, and so are plenty of Conservative Party members: why doesn't UKIP disband and their members join the Tory Party?

It's strange that you pick him up on UKIP purely because it may hurt Tory chances, but not the BNP?

Looks like Tory supporters haven't changed much at all - it's not about immigration somehow harming our country, it's about backward undereducated morons like Imperiux whose attitude is "I'm not racist, I just hate all the darkies"

Cameron is trying to loose that 'old out of touch racist army major' image the Tories have, and I can't help but admire him a little for that - despite the fact i've vowed never to vote Tory. However, I guess if he's successful it will take much of his support base time to change their attitudes.
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 22:12
No.

The UK has an uncodified constitution. Not an unwritten one.

That means it just isn't collected into one document (like in the US), but is spread over several, or many, as well as convention and case law. Most (I think) of the British constitution is written.

And Magna Carta only has 3 clauses or something still in effect, and it's only one out of many documents that could be included in the British constitution.There's still a difference. In the UK parliament is sovereign, whereas, in the US, it is the constitution that is sovereign and grants powers. The US constitution binds the current and all future Senates. Whereas, nothing can bind the current or any future Parliament.
Genaia3
16-02-2006, 22:12
The UK has a constitution. :rolleyes:

Not in a single codified legislative document, the guiding principles of British constitutional democracy are drawn from a variety of sources such as the 1688 Bill of Rights and the Habeas Corpus Act of 1689. These are not "higher laws" but can be overturned by a simple parliamentary statute. Still I suppose the term "constitution" is broad enough to include this.

Hmmm - just realised that's kind've a long winded way of agreeing with you.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:13
No it isn't.

It's written nationally and internationally as an unCODIFIED constitution. Big difference.

To say it's unwritten is ill-informed and entirely wrong.


Look, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Constitution)
I agree.
It is unwritten from the point of view it's not one document. Which you could also call uncodified. So basically we're arguing over two synonymns.
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:13
Regardless, the world recoginzes that it is unwriteen, from the point it isn't a single document.

I will tell you again.

You are wrong.

"The world" recognises that it is uncodified. That's the word for a constitution that isn't a single document. Not unwritten.

Read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Constitution)
Missguided power
16-02-2006, 22:14
This might interest you. (http://europa.eu.int/index_en.htm)
But i think you'll be bored and know the whole story after the first letter.
Yes very interesting....
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:14
There's still a difference. In the UK parliament is sovereign, whereas, in the US, it is the constitution that is sovereign and grants powers. The US constitution binds the current and all future Senates. Whereas, nothing can bind the current or any future Parliament.
What does the relative powers of constitutions of varying countries have to do with the simple fact that the UK does, in all reality, have a constitution?
New Mitanni
16-02-2006, 22:14
We are becoming less of the type of nation that would look out for its citizens, and more and more like Stalin's Soviet Union, or even Orwell's 1984.

What do you think?

I think you need to do a little more studying of the various issues you mention. If you think there's a bias problem against Muslims, for instance, start paying attention to what they are saying and doing in your country and elsewhere. You might even ask yourself why they are even allowed into the country in the first place. And if you think your country bears any resemblance to Stalin's Soviet Union, still less Airstrip One, you'd better go back to the library, check out Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago, and re-read 1984 (assuming you've read it in the first place).
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:15
I agree.
It is unwritten from the point of view it's not one document. Which you could also call uncodified. So basically we're arguing over two synonymns.
We really aren't.

Unwritten means none of it is written down.

Uncodified means some of it is written, some of it isn't, and it all combines to be one.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:15
I still agree and disagree.
It's uncodified and unwritten. I will only go that far unless you can get a law expert to prove otherwise.
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:17
I still agree and disagree.
It's uncodified and unwritten. I will only go that far unless you can get a law expert to prove otherwise.
Then you're a bloody fool.

Some parts of it are unwritten, but to say the whole thing is unwritten is, simply, wrong. To say it is uncodified would be correct.
New Mitanni
16-02-2006, 22:18
They will know as soon as the United Church of America sends a Crusade right into Toronto, Quebec, and BC, then you'll know! You'll know as the lakes swell with the fresh blood of heathen Canadians! ;)

Yep, that's right, we're coming to get those evil Canucks. Time to add a few more stars to the Stars and Stripes. Yep, by golly, we're gonna take over the world one country at a time.

I hear the Aland Islands are on our short list of targets too. Better run while you can :p
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:18
Okay. I'm not bloody stupid. I just have different point of view.

Now, what is it about bureacracy and whitehall blair loves?
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 22:18
I still agree and disagree.
It's uncodified and unwritten. I will only go that far unless you can get a law expert to prove otherwise.

A.V. Dicey (http://www.constitution.org/cmt/avd/law_con.htm)
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:20
Yep, that's right, we're coming to get those evil Canucks. Time to add a few more stars to the Stars and Stripes. Yep, by golly, we're gonna take over the world one country at a time.

I hear the Aland Islands are on our short list of targets too. Better run while you can :p

Tony Blair calls for first dibs on 51st state of America. He'll do ANYTHING for that to happen. And I mean ANYTHING!
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:21
A.V. Dicey (http://www.constitution.org/cmt/avd/law_con.htm)

Professor Vernon Bogdanor of Oxford University: to say the British constitution is unwritten is a "misleading platitude" source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/talking_politics/88136.stm)


So there you go, Imperiux, two experts.
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:22
Okay. I'm not bloody stupid. I just have different point of view.

I didn't say you were bloody stupid I said that if you believed it was unwritten you were a bloody fool.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 22:24
It's strange that you pick him up on UKIP purely because it may hurt Tory chances, but not the BNP?

Looks like Tory supporters haven't changed much at all - it's not about immigration somehow harming our country, it's about backward undereducated morons like Imperiux whose attitude is "I'm not racist, I just hate all the darkies"

Cameron is trying to loose that 'old out of touch racist army major' image the Tories have, and I can't help but admire him a little for that - despite the fact i've vowed never to vote Tory. However, I guess if he's successful it will take much of his support base time to change their attitudes.

I didn't pick him up on the BNP because bigots, racists and thugs will never vote for a mainstream party: hence the existence of the BNP. Besides, no true Tory would want our support to rest on those kind of people.

The suggestion that Tory members hate immigrants is fanciful nonsense. If it were true, why is the Conservative party a big supporter of Turkey's entrance to the EU?
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:25
Okay point proven.
It's Uncodified.
You say potato.
I say potato.
Tony Blair says "Education, Education, Education."
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:26
You say potato.
I say potatoe.
I say "Oxford English Dictionary" ;)
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:27
I say my bloody keyboard keeps jamming and is too ruddy slow.
Laenis
16-02-2006, 22:28
The suggestion that Tory members hate immigrants is fanciful nonsense. If it were true, why is the Conservative party a big supporter of Turkey's entrance to the EU?

Like I say - Tory is trying to loose the racist image. That's evident how they've stopped banging on about immigration now that it didn't win them the election. However, that doesn't change the fact that many Tory supporters are still the old "No tax and no blacks" type. Hopefully this will fade over time, and the really hardcore racists will retreat to the extremist parties. It's not like they'll get any power, so it doesn't really matter - Tory will be rid of them.
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 22:29
What does the relative powers of constitutions of varying countries have to do with the simple fact that the UK does, in all reality, have a constitution?What is a constitution? A set of laws (written or unwritten) relating to government. By that definition a government can not exist without a constitution. This seems to make the term pretty much obsolete and meaningless. What is more interesting is the nature of these laws. As with the original arguement. The UK currently has no set in stone laws, nor in its current system can it have such laws. Which is what makes the EU constitution so interesting. If the UK were to adopt the document it would have meant the UK having a codified constitution for the first time in its history.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 22:31
Like I say - Tory is trying to loose the racist image. That's evident how they've stopped banging on about immigration now that it didn't win them the election. However, that doesn't change the fact that many Tory supporters are still the old "No tax and no blacks" type. Hopefully this will fade over time, and the really hardcore racists will retreat to the extremist parties. It's not like they'll get any power, so it doesn't really matter - Tory will be rid of them.

What's racist about opposing immigration?

There are no hard-core racists in the Tory Party: they wouldn't feel welcome. Most branches have people from ethnic minorities in their ranks, but I guess your Toryphobia means you wouldn't have considered that possibility.
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 22:34
What is a constitution? A set of laws (written or unwritten) relating to government. By that definition a government can not exist without a constitution. This seems to make the term pretty much obsolete and meaningless. What is more interesting is the nature of these laws. As with the original arguement. The UK currently has no set in stone laws, nor in its current system can it have such laws. Which is what makes the EU constitution so interesting. If the UK were to adopt the document it would have meant the UK having a codified constitution for the first time in its history.

Not that it would matter much because of Parliamentary Sovereignty.

Don't like something the EU Constitution says you have to do? Suddenly discover that it stops you doing something you like?

Repeal a few Acts and BAM there goes membership of the EU, and any restraining power it has.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:35
What is a constitution? A set of laws (written or unwritten) relating to government. By that definition a government can not exist without a constitution. This seems to make the term pretty much obsolete and meaningless. What is more interesting is the nature of these laws. As with the original arguement. The UK currently has no set in stone laws, nor in its current system can it have such laws. Which is what makes the EU constitution so interesting. If the UK were to adopt the document it would have meant the UK having a codified constitution for the first time in its history.

I can explain that using beds!

The UK is a bodyform bed. It moulds to the needs and desired of it's people, and
regularly changes to adapt.

The EU is a spring mattress. It supports the body under a pre-determined shape, allowing certain freedoms, but otherwise restricting any major change needed for the future.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:46
[QUOTE=Random Kingdom] We have a state religion, and our school is only refusing to force students to pray "like good proper deprogrammed Christians" by a HAIR.
/QUOTE]
So you don't have to pray. My school is hell bent on saying Amen every assembly. Of course they don't call it prayer. They say "Bow your heads please".
Laenis
16-02-2006, 22:46
What's racist about opposing immigration?

Nothing inherantly, but I think it's a very minor issue and building an election campaign about it suggest something fishy. Has the country really suffered because of immigration so far? Not visibly, unless you are disgusted by the presence of other cultures. True there are some intergration problems, but in a couple of generations it will all be a lot better. Other cultures take time to intergrate into mainstream. You can talk about "Tax scronging asylum seekers" but the actual number of aslyum seekers is very small comparitively, and going down each year.

It seems to me to be one of those issues that should take a back burner to the important things - health, education, the economy, foreign relations etc. The Tories only highlighted their tough immigration policies to appease the closet racists.


There are no hard-core racists in the Tory Party: they wouldn't feel welcome. Most branches have people from ethnic minorities in their ranks, but I guess your Toryphobia means you wouldn't have considered that possibility.

Not in the Tory party anymore probably - I don't know the actual party very well to be honest. Its just many racists I have met advocated voting Tory in the past - it was either Tory or BNP. Note i'm talking about mere members of the public who vote Tory here, not party members. Like I say, hopefully the Tory party themselves will alienate those racists and make them support the BNP, so they would no longer have to appease them and could regain some credibility.
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 22:52
To Nadkor: You missed my point. I meant that if the EU constitution had become entrenced in UK law.

To Imperiux: Have you ever seen what an old bodyform bed looks like? The spring matress might not be as flexible, but it's a whole lot more durable.

To Imperiux and Random Island: *shows off his secular education where he was never once asked to do anything remotely religious. Well there was RE, but that was balanced*
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:54
To Nadkor: You missed my point. I meant that if the EU constitution had become entrenced in UK law.

To Imperiux: Have you ever seen what an old bodyform bed looks like? The spring matress might not be as flexible, but it's a whole lot more durable.

That's why you replace a bodyform bedwhen it starts to keep your imprint permanently, so that you can get a new bed, or elect a new party. Of course the current bodyform bed is just a sack with squashed polystyrene balls inside.
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 22:55
To Nadkor: You missed my point. I meant that if the EU constitution had become entrenced in UK law.


It can't become 'entrenched law' because parliament always has the option from withdrawing from the EU. Parliament, as long as it is an EU member has the responsibility to bring domestic legislation in line with EU requirements, but it doesn't have to stay in the EU, thus retaining parliamentary soveriegnty.
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 22:57
That's why you replace a bodyform bedwhen it starts to keep your imprint permanently, so that you can get a new bed, or elect a new party. Of course the current bodyform bed is just a sack with squashed polystyrene balls inside.And thus the metaphor was taken too far. My point was that an unentrenced constitution can sometimes be too flexible.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 22:59
I find spring beds rather uncomfortable, don't you? I have a stuff spring mattress instead, it dosn't mould to your shape, but it's really comfortable. How do you think any party could become a stuff-spring mattress?
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 23:03
It can't become 'entrenched law' because parliament always has the option from withdrawing from the EU. Parliament, as long as it is an EU member has the responsibility to bring domestic legislation in line with EU requirements, but it doesn't have to stay in the EU, thus retaining parliamentary soveriegnty.Theoretically true, but in practice I would presume it would become increasingly difficult to back out of the EU. But, yeah, I guess I'll concede to your point.

If the UK did ever opt to leave the EU I try and see if I could renounce my British citizenship in favour of my EU citizenship. Either that or I've got to go work in another EU country for a couple of years and claim citizenship there as well.
Anarchic Conceptions
16-02-2006, 23:07
We're gonna get swarmed by a multi-cultural non-british society
Curse all Asylum seekers and foreign immigrants!

Just first generation ones or also subsequent generations?
Anarchic Conceptions
16-02-2006, 23:08
If you live in Britain and don't like the present government, get off your arse and vote Conservative! Nothing else can remove Labour from power.

Yes. After all Cameron is disagreeing with Blair over so many things...
Anarchic Conceptions
16-02-2006, 23:09
The EU Constitution (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm) is the worst piece of writing ever. Who even needs a constitution. The UK dosn't have one and it's been ok before.


I suggest you read your Bagehot.
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 23:10
Yes. After all Cameron is disagreeing with Blair over so many things...It was also completely missing the point that in the OP the guy said the government hadn't yet granted him the right to vote as he was 14.
Imperiux
16-02-2006, 23:11
Just first generation ones or also subsequent generations?

It generally includes first to 3rd generations.
Anarchic Conceptions
16-02-2006, 23:16
It generally includes first to 3rd generations.

Hmm, so I've been cursed.

I wonder if that counts as flaming :confused:

</jk>
Teid
16-02-2006, 23:21
Our nation is woefully biased against Muslims. In fact, the entire European Union (including Denmark for the record) is unnecessarily biased.
We have a state religion, and our school is only refusing to force students to pray "like good proper deprogrammed Christians" by a HAIR.


What do you think?

I think you're a socialist who should get back to sweeping the streets. As far as the first issue is concerned, you obviously want to stamp out anything and everything that isn't politically correct. Onto the second point, and I really feel like slapping you round the face.
Laenis
16-02-2006, 23:24
Hmm, so I've been cursed.

I wonder if that counts as flaming :confused:

</jk>

It would be so interesting if all these mindless bigots found out that they too are descended from the terrible immigrants - no one is pure anglo-saxon anymore. There's being so much inter breeding and immigration gone on over the centuries that it really doesn't matter anymore.
Anarchic Conceptions
16-02-2006, 23:25
Onto the second point, and I really feel like slapping you round the face.

Do you often resort to [threatening] violence when you see views you dislike?
Laenis
16-02-2006, 23:26
I think you're a socialist who should get back to sweeping the streets.

What has socialism got to do with sweeping the streets? Is this some reference to socialism traditionally being the political stance of the working class, who aren't as important?
Lamodia
16-02-2006, 23:26
You cannot forget the evil Political Correctness!
Although interesting fact, politically correct is not politically correct. The politically correct term for politically correct is culturally sensitive.

We're gonna get swarmed by a multi-cultural non-british society
Curse all Asylum seekers and foreign immigrants!


Actually immigration is essential for the survival of the UK as they fill low-paid jobs that the British won’t do. Without these willing workers key-roles probably wouldn’t be filled and the country would suffer. Anywho, Britain has had immigrations since before written history, and each one of us probably has a mixture of other races or nationalities in our family history.

The thing is that you are pretty young and someone of your age tends to see things as a little black and white. The trouble is that most of the time things are various shades of grey. Give it a few years and I'll bet your attitude will change.
Europa Maxima
16-02-2006, 23:28
I think you're a socialist who should get back to sweeping the streets. As far as the first issue is concerned, you obviously want to stamp out anything and everything that isn't politically correct. Onto the second point, and I really feel like slapping you round the face.
Although I do not agree wholly with the way you stated this, I agree in principle.
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 23:29
It would be so interesting if all these mindless bigots found out that they too are descended from the terrible immigrants - no one is pure anglo-saxon anymore. There's being so much inter breeding and immigration gone on over the centuries that it really doesn't matter anymore.
And even then the Angles and the Saxons were immigrants...
Teid
16-02-2006, 23:29
No, but he reminds me of this irritating woman from a Radio 4 interview who complained that we still aren't PC enough, there is still homophobia, islamaphobia, sexism and so on. What an ungrateful cow, she obviously doesn't realise how much more tolerant this country has become since the 40's.

Do you often resort to [threatening] violence when you see views you dislike?
Laenis
16-02-2006, 23:29
Actually immigration is essential for the survival of the UK as they fill low-paid jobs that the British won’t do. Without these willing workers key-roles probably wouldn’t be filled and the country would suffer. Anywho, Britain has had immigrations since before written history, and each one of us probably has a mixture of other races or nationality in our family history.


Indeed. I'd only support stopping immigration if those who constantly moaned about aslyum seekers and multi culturalism offered to quit their comfortable jobs and take up all the minimum wage placements that are usually filled by immigrants.

Really give them something to whinge about.
-Somewhere-
16-02-2006, 23:34
The things I hate about Britain.... well where do I start?

- Successive governments being more concerned with doing what their financiers want rather than doing what's best for the people. Our politicians have all been bought by their big business donors, money and personal prestige are the only things our politicians are concerned with. And this extends from the government down to every last MP. Scum, every last one of them.

- Public services in a state of decay because the public want all the services in the world but they don't want to pay for it.

- Complete ignorance and indifference towards the economic and social degredation that pervades so communities in this country. The government prefers to just ignore it and leave these people to rot.

- Blair spinelessley takes us into wars that are of no concern to us, costing us troops' lives and a hell of a lot of money. All of this to please Bush.

- Successive governments have sold us out to Europe and allowed our home affairs to be dictated to when they are of nobody else's concern. Things like the European Convention on Human Rights (Codified into British law as the Human Rights Act, or the Whingers' Charter as it really is) and the UN Refugee Convention have all eroded parliamentary sovereignty and our rights to govern ourselves. Just more attemps by our governments to punish the ordinary worker for the purposes of appeasing a few whining minorities.

- The way successive governments have allowed influxes of immigrants into Britain, which has only served to degrade British culture and society. When you hear things like the Notting Hill Carnival being held up as something great about modern Britain then you know that this country has really fell down the toilet.

- This government seems to spend most of it's time sickeningly crawling on their hand and knees to muslims, always trying to pacify them and make sure they can carry on their so far successful work into turning Britain into part of their global caliphate.

I could think of a million more things, but that's it for now.
Laenis
16-02-2006, 23:34
And even then the Angles and the Saxons were immigrants...

Yeah, but the BNP typers often talk about "Pure blooded anglo saxons", as if they are the only racial group with a right to the country.

Oh, and Teid - homosexuals had it a lot better in the 50s, where they were merely arrested in many countries, than in the middle ages, when they would probably be executed. Does that mean homosexuals in the 50s "should have being glad that it was more tolerant than in the middle ages" ?
Europa Maxima
16-02-2006, 23:35
No, but he reminds me of this irritating woman from a Radio 4 interview who complained that we still aren't PC enough, there is still homophobia, islamaphobia, sexism and so on. What an ungrateful cow, she obviously doesn't realise how much more tolerant this country has become since the 40's.
Not only this, but people who are protected by PC often have extremely intolerant views of others. PC protects them. Women are not one such group though. They are entitled to full equality, and may complain about sexism if it is there.
Nueva Inglaterra
16-02-2006, 23:35
The things I hate about Britain.... well where do I start?

- Successive governments being more concerned with doing what their financiers want rather than doing what's best for the people. Our politicians have all been bought by their big business donors, money and personal prestige are the only things our politicians are concerned with. And this extends from the government down to every last MP. Scum, every last one of them.

- Public services in a state of decay because the public want all the services in the world but they don't want to pay for it.

- Complete ignorance and indifference towards the economic and social degredation that pervades so communities in this country. The government prefers to just ignore it and leave these people to rot.

- Blair spinelessley takes us into wars that are of no concern to us, costing us troops' lives and a hell of a lot of money. All of this to please Bush.

- Successive governments have sold us out to Europe and allowed our home affairs to be dictated to when they are of nobody else's concern. Things like the European Convention on Human Rights (Codified into British law as the Human Rights Act, or the Whingers' Charter as it really is) and the UN Refugee Convention have all eroded parliamentary sovereignty and our rights to govern ourselves. Just more attemps by our governments to punish the ordinary worker for the purposes of appeasing a few whining minorities.

- The way successive governments have allowed influxes of immigrants into Britain, which has only served to degrade British culture and society. When you hear things like the Notting Hill Carnival being held up as something great about modern Britain then you know that this country has really fell down the toilet.

- This government seems to spend most of it's time sickeningly crawling on their hand and knees to muslims, always trying to pacify them and make sure they can carry on their so far successful work into turning Britain into part of their global caliphate.

I could think of a million more things, but that's it for now.

What a whinge!

If it's not too personal, who do you normally vote for? Or are you a "floater"?
Unogal
16-02-2006, 23:36
Move to Canada and you'll be swarmed by girls. I've seen it. Not to mention you'll be diefied for your natural ability to play soccer and rugger.
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 23:37
The things I hate about Britain.... well where do I start?
<snip>
I could think of a million more things, but that's it for now.I think you systematically managed to take the worst parts of every available ideology out there. That, sir, is impressive.
Nadkor
16-02-2006, 23:38
Things like the European Convention on Human Rights (Codified into British law as the Human Rights Act, or the Whingers' Charter as it really is) and the UN Refugee Convention have all eroded parliamentary sovereignty
No they haven't, because they are dependent on a particular Act of Parliament in order to apply to the UK. Repeal that Act, and EU law no longer applies.

They only happen through an Act of Parliament, so no sovereignty is eroded.
Teid
16-02-2006, 23:39
Oh, and Teid - homosexuals had it a lot better in the 50s, where they were merely arrested in many countries, than in the middle ages, when they would probably be executed. Does that mean homosexuals in the 50s "should have being glad that it was more tolerant than in the middle ages" ?

Yes they damn well should. I propose getting all the liberal activists and shipping them off to Singapore, where homosexuality is still illegal and civil rights groups are shut down by the government. At least we're not putting them into gas chambers.
Europa Maxima
16-02-2006, 23:39
I think you systematically managed to take the worst parts of every available ideology out there. That, sir, is impressive.
Agreed. I disagree on his position on the EU, yet agree with all the rest.
-Somewhere-
16-02-2006, 23:47
I think you systematically managed to take the worst parts of every available ideology out there. That, sir, is impressive.
Yes, such awful things I seek aren't they? A fair deal for the workers. Self-government. The people of this country to finally be able to take pride in their heritage and culture. Not to be under the whip hand of a barbarian foreign culture. Why this all so terrible?
Laenis
16-02-2006, 23:47
Yes they damn well should. I propose getting all the liberal activists and shipping them off to Singapore, where homosexuality is still illegal and civil rights groups are shut down by the government. At least we're not putting them into gas chambers.

I tell you what - how about we ship you off there instead? You'd obviously be a lot happier there.
The Atlantian islands
16-02-2006, 23:48
Yes, such awful things I seek aren't they? A fair deal for the workers. Self-government. The people of this country to finally be able to take pride in their heritage and culture. Not to be under the whip hand of a barbarian foreign culture. Why this all so terrible?

Oh man, I cant wait for the people who are all on Islam's sack to read this one.
Europa Maxima
16-02-2006, 23:48
Yes, such awful things I seek aren't they? A fair deal for the workers. Self-government. The people of this country to finally be able to take pride in their heritage and culture. Not to be under the whip hand of a barbarian foreign culture. Why this all so terrible?
I think he meant it shows every problem facing current Britain. I might be wrong.
Lacadaemon
16-02-2006, 23:50
Yes, such awful things I seek aren't they? A fair deal for the workers. Self-government. The people of this country to finally be able to take pride in their heritage and culture. Not to be under the whip hand of a barbarian foreign culture. Why this all so terrible?

Are you one of those BNP types, bonny lad?
The Infinite Dunes
16-02-2006, 23:51
With regards to -Somewhere-
Well let's see.
1) You have a point
2) They probably only think that because our politicians think that and tell that it can be achieved.
3) I guess you're not a resident of places like Liverpool, Birmingham or Bradford, which have all come a long way (thanks mostly to European money, but since the UK is a net contributor it's a round about way of getting our own money in there
4) I would actually say it takes a fair amount of spine to take a country to war when there were so many anti-war protests, either that or a lot of stupidity.
5) We actually have a lot of saw over EU law. Anybody heard of the Council of Ministers or the Council of Europe and their vetos? Plus we could repeal the acts that give these Laws legal status in our country.
6) I love Notting Hill Carnival, and Britain has a long history of importing culture. Or would you prefer that we were all still sacrifing each other to our pagan gods?
7) Did anyone pay attention to the commons last night when the clause of making it a criminal offense to glorify terrorism was reinstated to the Terror Act, or that Abu Hamza has been convicted?
The Atlantian islands
16-02-2006, 23:56
With regards to -Somewhere-
Well let's see.
1) You have a point
2) They probably only think that because our politicians think that and tell that it can be achieved.
3) I guess you're not a resident of places like Liverpool, Birmingham or Bradford, which have all come a long way (thanks mostly to European money, but since the UK is a net contributor it's a round about way of getting our own money in there
4) I would actually say it takes a fair amount of spine to take a country to war when there were so many anti-war protests, either that or a lot of stupidity.
5) We actually have a lot of saw over EU law. Anybody heard of the Council of Ministers or the Council of Europe and their vetos? Plus we could repeal the acts that give these Laws legal status in our country.
6) I love Notting Hill Carnival, and Britain has a long history of importing culture. Or would you prefer that we were all still sacrifing each other to our pagan gods?
7) Did anyone pay attention to the commons last night when the clause of making it a criminal offense to glorify terrorism was reinstated to the Terror Act, or that Abu Hamza has been convicted?

I always liked the Norse religion...along with the Greek religion and the Egyption religion.
Europa Maxima
16-02-2006, 23:58
I always liked the Norse religion...along with the Greek religion and the Egyption religion.
Me too. Although most of what we think is the Norse religion now has strong Christian influences. You have to go far back to get the pure versions.
Teid
16-02-2006, 23:59
I tell you what - how about we ship you off there instead? You'd obviously be a lot happier there.

Actually I consider myself to be a conservative leaning centrist. I don't hate people because of their political values. I just found that both the topic starter and this woman I mentioned didn't seem to get how lucky they are as it is. The world will always be flawed, so get used to it and/or shut up.
The Infinite Dunes
17-02-2006, 00:00
I always liked the Norse religion...along with the Greek religion and the Egyption religion.So you agree with me - the importing of the best bits of other cultures?

The bit I said about pagan gods was a bad attempt to quickly state that no culture has advanced very far without borrowing from other cultures. There are a few exceptions, but they don't tend to survive.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:01
Oh man, I cant wait for the people who are all on Islam's sack to read this one.

To be honest if such a group of people who make up 2.7% of the population can control the other 97%, we may as well give up hope since they are obviously supermen.
Lacadaemon
17-02-2006, 00:02
I always liked the Norse religion...along with the Greek religion and the Egyption religion.

I want bernicia back.:( I'm a bit of a nationalist I suppose.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:03
To be honest if such a group of people who make up 2.7% of the population can control the other 97%, we may as well give up hope since they are obviously supermen.
Hey, it's been done before. NSDAP? Not the same %, but they managed to pull it off, and legally too.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:03
I want bernicia back.:( I'm a bit of a nationalist I suppose.
Bernicia?
The Infinite Dunes
17-02-2006, 00:05
Actually I consider myself to be a conservative leaning centrist. I don't hate people because of their political values. I just found that both the topic starter and this woman I mentioned didn't seem to get how lucky they are as it is. The world will always be flawed, so get used to it and/or shut up.The world would be very much more flawed if people had just got used to it and shut up. Can you imagine what the world would be like if Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Emmeline Pankhurst or a multitude of other people had just got used to it?
Lacadaemon
17-02-2006, 00:05
Bernicia?

You may know it as Bryneich.

It's one of the old kingdoms.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:05
Hey, it's been done before. NSDAP? Not the same %, but they managed to pull it off, and legally too.

I think we can agree that they were a lot different though.

And the two cases are completely different.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:07
I think we can agree that they were a lot different though.

And the two cases are completely different.
Still, it is perfectly possible.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:08
You may know it as Bryneich.

It's one of the old kingdoms.
Oh yes. Didn't know it was called Bernicia though.
The Infinite Dunes
17-02-2006, 00:08
I think we can agree that they were a lot different though.

And the two cases are completely different.What about aristocracies? They, a small population of the country, seemed to be able to country the rest of the country. But they were all inbred and... yeah... ew...
Teid
17-02-2006, 00:09
The world would be very much more flawed if people had just got used to it and shut up. Can you imagine what the world would be like if Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Emmeline Pankhurst or a multitude of other people had just got used to it?

Apples and oranges.
-Somewhere-
17-02-2006, 00:10
Are you one of those BNP types, bonny lad?
No. Although I agree with a lot of what the BNP say in their manifestos, I don't trust them any more than I trust any other politician. And while I agree on certain issues, I disagree with others. So I'm just independent.

2) They probably only think that because our politicians think that and tell that it can be achieved.
Then the people are idiots for believeing them.

3) I guess you're not a resident of places like Liverpool, Birmingham or Bradford, which have all come a long way (thanks mostly to European money, but since the UK is a net contributor it's a round about way of getting our own money in there
As you said, it's our money in the first place. At least if we gave it to those areas directly we wouldn't be putting so much into wasteful EU projects.

4) I would actually say it takes a fair amount of spine to take a country to war when there were so many anti-war protests, either that or a lot of stupidity.
Or just contempt.

5) We actually have a lot of saw over EU law. Anybody heard of the Council of Ministers or the Council of Europe and their vetos? Plus we could repeal the acts that give these Laws legal status in our country.
If we weren't bound by their laws then we wouldn't have to worry about what laws they pass.
6) I love Notting Hill Carnival, and Britain has a long history of importing culture. Or would you prefer that we were all still sacrifing each other to our pagan gods?
The difference is, this came from a much slower flow of settlers from neighbouring countries, who after a while assimilated into a more unified culture. These days it's just an influx of immigrants from uncivilised cultures that is adulterating te culture of this country.

7) Did anyone pay attention to the commons last night when the clause of making it a criminal offense to glorify terrorism was reinstated to the Terror Act, or that Abu Hamza has been convicted?
Not good enough, these are just pathetic attemps by our government to try and fool people into thinking they actually want to protect us.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:10
Still, it is perfectly possible.

Very doubtful since I cannot think of any situation where a fundementalist Muslim cleric will be given the keys to power to get rid a worse percieved threat like Hitler was.

Also, Nazis in the 20s and Muslims today are in completely different situations.

The two cases are wildly different.
Teid
17-02-2006, 00:12
What about aristocracies? They, a small population of the country, seemed to be able to country the rest of the country. But they were all inbred and... yeah... ew...

Once you get over your anarchist ideals, you'll realise the Lords are a brilliant idea for upholding democracy. Think about it, these people don't have to pander to gain votes or invoke terror in their constituents to keep in power. And if the MPs want to, they can still ignore the Lords (foxhunting). I'd be horrified if a succesful vote in the Commons automatically put a bill into law. *shivers*
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:12
What about aristocracies? They, a small population of the country, seemed to be able to country the rest of the country. But they were all inbred and... yeah... ew...

The aristocracy didn't come from abroad with next to nothing and essentially forced into ghettos when the arrived and put on the bottom rung of society.

By and by large the arrived with a foriegn army and were given land in reward.

Anyway, I think the proportion of them was larger then 2.7% of the total population.
The Atlantian islands
17-02-2006, 00:14
So you agree with me - the importing of the best bits of other cultures?

The bit I said about pagan gods was a bad attempt to quickly state that no culture has advanced very far without borrowing from other cultures. There are a few exceptions, but they don't tend to survive.

Well obviously every culture (notably the world power's cultures) are made up of different cultures.

But I think my point is while importing some cultures do great things for a country, (see Japan importing American culture after America was the first to kick its ass in its 2000 year old history) other cultures have a negative impact on society..(In my opinion what the muslim culture is doing to the Western world)....it all depends on what you beleive but yes, in general cultures have always (for the better) borrowed from other cultures, its just in my opinion, that some cultures are better than others.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:15
Once you get over your anarchist ideals, you'll realise the Lords are a brilliant idea for upholding democracy. Think about it, these people don't have to pander to gain votes or invoke terror in their constituents to keep in power. And if the MPs want to, they can still ignore the Lords (foxhunting). I'd be horrified if a succesful vote in the Commons automatically put a bill into law. *shivers*

I don't think he was talking about that.


Also, I don't think anyone has suggested getting rid of the Lords (not without also getting rid of the Commons anyway) in a serious manner since the 1640s.

Once you get over your anarchist ideals,

Only when you stop treating people like children.
The Atlantian islands
17-02-2006, 00:16
To be honest if such a group of people who make up 2.7% of the population can control the other 97%, we may as well give up hope since they are obviously supermen.

cough....see Jewish conspiracy.
Teid
17-02-2006, 00:17
Only when you stop treating people like children.

Sorry, I'm just in a bad mood right now.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:17
Once you get over your anarchist ideals, you'll realise the Lords are a brilliant idea for upholding democracy. Think about it, these people don't have to pander to gain votes or invoke terror in their constituents to keep in power. And if the MPs want to, they can still ignore the Lords (foxhunting). I'd be horrified if a succesful vote in the Commons automatically put a bill into law. *shivers*
Agreed. The House of Lords is a powerful balancing force. It is also a noble institution. I would hate to see it go.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:18
cough....see Jewish conspiracy.

I can imagine the Der Fuhrer spinning in his grave at the suggestion of Jews as Supermen :D
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:18
Very doubtful since I cannot think of any situation where a fundementalist Muslim cleric will be given the keys to power to get rid a worse percieved threat like Hitler was.

Also, Nazis in the 20s and Muslims today are in completely different situations.

The two cases are wildly different.
Circumstances change all the time. At some point they may change so as to accommodate fundamentalist Muslim clerics. Don't be too surprised if we actually vote them into power.
The Infinite Dunes
17-02-2006, 00:19
No. Although I agree with a lot of what the BNP say in their manifestos, I don't trust them any more than I trust any other politician. And while I agree on certain issues, I disagree with others. So I'm just independent.

Then the people are idiots for believeing them.

As you said, it's our money in the first place. At least if we gave it to those areas directly we wouldn't be putting so much into wasteful EU projects.

Or just contempt.

If we weren't bound by their laws then we wouldn't have to worry about what laws they pass.

The difference is, this came from a much slower flow of settlers from neighbouring countries, who after a while assimilated into a more unified culture. These days it's just an influx of immigrants from uncivilised cultures that is adulterating te culture of this country.

Not good enough, these are just pathetic attemps by our government to try and fool people into thinking they actually want to protect us.Uncivilised cultures? *desperately tries to keep a straight face*

Anyway, welcome to real world, most people are easily led.

Wasteful EU projects? You mean like the European Regional Development Fund that has brought millons out of poverty?

So you agree with me, that is wasn't spineless then?

You miss the point. Our own government is the driving force behind most of the laws that come out the EU, and it has the ability to block any that it doesn't like. It just tries to pretend that it doesn't have any influence. See your point about lying politicians.

Anyway... uncivilised cultures... you're funny. :D
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:19
Circumstances change all the time. At some point they may change so as to accommodate fundamentalist Muslim clerics. Don't be too surprised if we actually vote them into power.

For that to happen the amount of muslims in the country will have to at least be around the 20% mark.
Teid
17-02-2006, 00:19
Agreed. The House of Lords is a powerful balancing force. It is also a noble institution. I would hate to see it go.

I'm still shocked that a majority of our MPs voted for the ID cards.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:20
I can imagine the Der Fuhrer spinning in his grave at the suggestion of Jews as Supermen :D
We all know he is just letting them think they are ;) :p
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:21
I'm still shocked that a majority of our MPs voted for the ID cards.

You are?


I was upset, but hardly surprised.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:21
For that to happen the amount of muslims in the country will have to at least be around the 20% mark.
30% to be fair. Yet, at current rates of immigration, that could well happen. And if we let in a Turkey which has not conformed to European ideals that may happen in no time. The nation is only secular due to British intervention really.
Nadkor
17-02-2006, 00:21
Circumstances change all the time. At some point they may change so as to accommodate fundamentalist Muslim clerics. Don't be too surprised if we actually vote them into power.
You sound almost as bad as the Exclusionists of the late 1600s.

Catholics were such a tiny minority in the population of England, yet people were still running about warning about how the Popery would get into power and the Protestants would be persecuted.

Never happened.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:21
I'm still shocked that a majority of our MPs voted for the ID cards.
That didn't shock me. The fact that there were schemes to abolish the Monarchy did shock me though. Thank God for the existence of the House of Lords.
Nadkor
17-02-2006, 00:22
That didn't shock me. The fact that there were schemes to abolish the Monarchy did shock me though. Thank God for the existence of the House of Lords.
Schemes to abolish the Monarchy?

The Monarchy's position cannot be debated in Parliament.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:22
You sound almost as bad as the Exclusionists of the late 1600s.

Catholics were such a tiny minority in the population of England, yet people were still running about warning about how the Popery would get into power and the Protestants would be persecuted.

Never happened.
Papacy. Anyway, Que vivra verra.
Lacadaemon
17-02-2006, 00:23
That didn't shock me. The fact that there were schemes to abolish the Monarchy did shock me though. Thank God for the existence of the House of Lords.

WOT?

I missed that. (Being an expat and all).
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:23
Schemes to abolish the Monarchy?

The Monarchy's position cannot be debated in Parliament.
There was actually a draft we discussed in our Law studies that had proposed its removal. The House of Lords blocked it ab initio.
The Infinite Dunes
17-02-2006, 00:24
Apples and oranges.If you consider Apples to be the past and the present and oranges to be the present. These people were ridiculed in their own time.
Teid
17-02-2006, 00:25
Can't the Queen just close Parliament?
Nadkor
17-02-2006, 00:25
Papacy. Anyway, Que vivra verra.
What about Papacy? That's a different thing from Popery.

The Papacy is the person/position, Popery was how the English described the system of authority of the Catholic Church.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:25
30% to be fair. Yet, at current rates of immigration, that could well happen. And if we let in a Turkey which has not conformed to European ideals that may happen in no time. The nation is only secular due to British intervention really.

Figures and statistics?

It would a huge amount of time at current immigration rates for Muslims to gain a big enough clout to elect a radical cleric as PM.

And this is making the assumption that they are homogenous and all radical enough to vote a such a cleric.
The Atlantian islands
17-02-2006, 00:25
I can imagine the Der Fuhrer spinning in his grave at the suggestion of Jews as Supermen :D

Well I'm an American (with a Prussian background) whos Jewish....so looks like I get to be TWICE the ubermensch.

Mwahahah.....:cool:
Teid
17-02-2006, 00:26
If you consider Apples to be the past and the present and oranges to be the present. These people were ridiculed in their own time.

Then it was state-sponsored racism. Now it's the state trying to change people's personal opinions. I don't want to see it going any further.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:27
Figures and statistics?

It would a huge amount of time at current immigration rates for Muslims to gain a big enough clout to elect a radical cleric as PM.

And this is making the assumption that they are homogenous and all radical enough to vote a such a cleric.
Current statistics from what I have suggest they are below the threshold of 10% in the UK, if even that. By the way, you can easily elect a person who seems fine, but then changes face completely. Power can be taken slowly and progressively, without anyone even knowing.
Nadkor
17-02-2006, 00:28
There was actually a draft we discussed in our Law studies that had proposed its removal. The House of Lords blocked it ab initio.
As far as I know the Speaker wouldn't even allow it to be raised or discussed in the Commons. The Lord Chancellor probably wouldn't allow it to be discussed in the Lords.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:28
You sound almost as bad as the Exclusionists of the late 1600s.

Catholics were such a tiny minority in the population of England, yet people were still running about warning about how the Popery would get into power and the Protestants would be persecuted.

Never happened.

Rather bizzarely it was an ex-Catholic educated the Jesuits who came up with the "Papish Plot."

Maybe he didn't like school.
Lacadaemon
17-02-2006, 00:28
Can't the Queen just close Parliament?

Nah, she excercises that at the request of the PM. Wouldn't be consitutional.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:29
As far as I know the Speaker wouldn't even allow it to be raised or discussed in the Commons. The Lord Chancellor probably wouldn't allow it to be discussed in the Lords.
Hasn't that position been removed (or weakened)? The Lord Chancellor has both political and legal power so far as I know.
Lacadaemon
17-02-2006, 00:29
What about Papacy? That's a different thing from Popery.

The Papacy is the person/position, Popery was how the English described the system of authority of the Catholic Church.

And now Cheri Bliar runs the country. :eek:
Teid
17-02-2006, 00:29
Nah, she excercises that at the request of the PM. Wouldn't be consitutional.

Wasn't like that last time..
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:31
Current statistics from what I have suggest they are below the threshold of 10% in the UK, if even that. By the way, you can easily elect a person who seems fine, but then changes face completely. Power can be taken slowly and progressively, without anyone even knowing.

I don't think radical Muslims have learned the message about "loose lips."

What you are suggesting is that there will be a conspiracy in which a huge percentage of the UK population will be in on.
Nadkor
17-02-2006, 00:31
Rather bizzarely it was an ex-Catholic educated the Jesuits who came up with the "Papish Plot."

Maybe he didn't like school.
Titus Oates?

Sure he was a nutjob who wasn't believed until all of a sudden the Privy Council finds some evidence and a Magistrate who supposedly knew about it is found dead.
The Infinite Dunes
17-02-2006, 00:32
Once you get over your anarchist ideals, you'll realise the Lords are a brilliant idea for upholding democracy. Think about it, these people don't have to pander to gain votes or invoke terror in their constituents to keep in power. And if the MPs want to, they can still ignore the Lords (foxhunting). I'd be horrified if a succesful vote in the Commons automatically put a bill into law. *shivers*I fail to see how an unelected body, which incidently can be controled by the commons by the adding of new peerages, will be dependable. They have no higher body to be responsible to and so can vote as their hearts desire. It is a pathetic idea, like you said, they can easily be overridden. That being said, I'm content with the current system as it seems to work quite well practically.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:32
I don't think radical Muslims have learned the message about "loose lips."
Experience will teach them.

What you are suggesting is that there will be a conspiracy in which a huge percentage of the UK population will be in on.
Merely suggesting its possibility.
Nadkor
17-02-2006, 00:32
Hasn't that position been removed (or weakened)? The Lord Chancellor has both political and legal power so far as I know.

The Lord Chancellor is the Monarch's rep. in the Lords. So he would block any attempt to discuss the position of the Monarchy.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:33
The Lord Chancellor is the Monarch's rep. in the Lords. So he would block any attempt to discuss the position of the Monarchy.
Yes, although I remember the office of Lord Chancellor is being compromised. I will have to check.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:35
Experience will teach them.


Merely suggesting its possibility.

Now it is late and was up early, but to be honest, I cannot fathom anyway in which power can be taken over in a way you describe.

Care to put forward a way?
Nadkor
17-02-2006, 00:36
Yes, although I remember the office of Lord Chancellor is being compromised. I will have to check.
They tried to I think, but it was sent to a Select Commitee by the Lords, who then said they wouldn't accept the Lord Chancellor being removed. Government backed down and removed that from the Bill, it then passed as the Constitutional Reform Act 2005.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:39
Now it is late and was up early, but to be honest, I cannot fathom anyway in which power can be taken over in a way you describe.

Care to put forward a way?
Sure. As I said, they get elected on the basis that they are not a fundamentalist. Slowly, like the NSDAP, they take control of everything, from the media to industry, clandestinely. Once people begin realising their true agenda, it is too difficult to break their hold over society. What the NSDAP did was exploit a political system. Nothing more, nothing less. They did so intelligently. The concept of a "legal revolution" could well work today.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:40
They tried to I think, but it was sent to a Select Commitee by the Lords, who then said they wouldn't accept the Lord Chancellor being removed. Government backed down and removed that from the Bill, it then passed as the Constitutional Reform Act 2005.
Awesome. :) I was under the impression it was removed.
Nadkor
17-02-2006, 00:42
Awesome. :) I was under the impression it was removed.
Nah, they couldn't remove the Lord Chancellor. Sure, it's Tony's mate's job.

And it's pretty entrenched in the whole Parliament thing.
The Infinite Dunes
17-02-2006, 00:42
How many Muslims do any of you know? I find them just as rational, if not more so, as any other theist. Most of the Muslims I know are more liberal, rational and progressive. However, many of them are concerned by the governments terror laws which seem to be targeting specifically Muslims. All in all I find them to be model citizens - kind, considerate, pro-active in their community and politcally minded. More than I can say for the average 'native' Briton.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:43
Nah, they couldn't remove the Lord Chancellor. Sure, it's Tony's mate's job.

And it's pretty entrenched in the whole Parliament thing.
Can anything really be entrenched in Parliament? A former Parliament's decision never binds a future one's.
Nadkor
17-02-2006, 00:44
Can anything really be entrenched in Parliament? A former Parliament's decision never binds a future one's.
I know, but I meant in tradition, and in the ceremonial role the Lord Chancellor performs.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:47
I know, but I meant in tradition, and in the ceremonial role the Lord Chancellor performs.
Well anyway, I am glad the position exists. It both gives the judiciary a bit more bargaining power and it protects the Monarch.
The Genius Masterminds
17-02-2006, 00:47
LOL..

I've been to the UK...it's not so bad. But living there has a different view.

Hehe, I'm just laughing at something that has to do with the kisse shuro-wala.

Very deplorable indeed.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 00:52
Sure. As I said, they get elected on the basis that they are not a fundamentalist. Slowly, like the NSDAP, they take control of everything, from the media to industry, clandestinely. Once people begin realising their true agenda, it is too difficult to break their hold over society. What the NSDAP did was exploit a political system. Nothing more, nothing less. They did so intelligently. The concept of a "legal revolution" could well work today.

However, the various other factors that helped them into power were unique to the Weimar Republic circa 1920.

And the idea that a moderate could become a leader in such situations is just laughable.
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 00:54
However, the various other factors that helped them into power were unique to the Weimar Republic circa 1920.

And the idea that a moderate could become a leader in such situations is just laughable.
As I said, que vivra verra.
-Somewhere-
17-02-2006, 00:56
How many Muslims do any of you know? I find them just as rational, if not more so, as any other theist. Most of the Muslims I know are more liberal, rational and progressive. However, many of them are concerned by the governments terror laws which seem to be targeting specifically Muslims. All in all I find them to be model citizens - kind, considerate, pro-active in their community and politcally minded. More than I can say for the average 'native' Briton.
I've knew plenty. I used to live in a town in Lancashire called Burnley. It's blighted with a large muslim population. Muslims brought ruin to that town, they're majorly responsible for the crime, there are no-go areas for white people and they just generally ruined the area. Naturally, the local council rewarded them by throwing disproportionate amounts of taxpayers' money at their areas, then they scratch their heads and wonder why people start voting BNP.
Anarchic Conceptions
17-02-2006, 01:01
As I said, que vivra verra.

Meh, live in fear of something that won't happen then.

After all, it is fear that gives extremism wings
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 01:06
Meh, live in fear of something that won't happen then.

After all, it is fear that gives extremism wings
I am not living in fear of it; merely stating it as a possibility. With current Muslim numbers, it's highly unlikely. And the fact that most radicals are highly outspoken does them no good either. So for now it's remote.
The Infinite Dunes
17-02-2006, 01:14
I've knew plenty. I used to live in a town in Lancashire called Burnley. It's blighted with a large muslim population. Muslims brought ruin to that town, they're majorly responsible for the crime, there are no-go areas for white people and they just generally ruined the area. Naturally, the local council rewarded them by throwing disproportionate amounts of taxpayers' money at their areas, then they scratch their heads and wonder why people start voting BNP.Most towns in the North have suffered from the same problems. Are you blaming the North/South divide on Muslims? This has nothing to do with culture. It's the typical class divide. A poorer section of society being marginalised and then a council, belatedly, trying to rectify the situation to no avail.

Bullshit about the no-go areas. It's all fear mongering. I'm talking from personal experience of other 'no-go' areas.

You have point about the urban renewal grants. I've heard of some Muslims buying houses as co-operatives and purposefully keeping them in disrepair to get the grants, but those grants are about to run out.

And as a side note, when you mentioned that you knew plenty of Muslims you didn't mention a single individual, but just lumped together as one group.
The Restored Israel
17-02-2006, 01:44
It's time you Brits realized that WE (the United States) call the shots, and when we tell you to jump your only response need be, "How high, SIR?"

We let you keep your Prime Minister, Tony Blair, only because he is the lap dog of our Great Leader, George Bush and follows obediently at Bush's heels when he walks (thank you, George, for doing such an outstanding job of training the wayward Brit! I'm sure you had your hands quite full trying to teach that shaggy English sheepdog to walk without falling all over himself!)

You should be glad that we have subsidized your economy to the point where you are not yet in league with U.S. states such as Louisiana, Oklahoma, Mississippi, or Alabama. We do this only because you have voluntarily submitted to the will of the American Homeland. France and Germany will not be so lucky.

And now -- America requires sustenance. You, over there -- peel me a grape! And you -- remove the seeds from this banana. The seeds get caught between my teeth...
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 01:44
Troll. :rolleyes:
Zolworld
17-02-2006, 02:54
Most towns in the North have suffered from the same problems. Are you blaming the North/South divide on Muslims? This has nothing to do with culture. It's the typical class divide. A poorer section of society being marginalised and then a council, belatedly, trying to rectify the situation to no avail.

Bullshit about the no-go areas. It's all fear mongering. I'm talking from personal experience of other 'no-go' areas.

You have point about the urban renewal grants. I've heard of some Muslims buying houses as co-operatives and purposefully keeping them in disrepair to get the grants, but those grants are about to run out.

And as a side note, when you mentioned that you knew plenty of Muslims you didn't mention a single individual, but just lumped together as one group.

I know individual muslims. a couple are nice, most are wankers. I live an a primarily muslim area and it is not pleasant. its getting to the point where the muslims will become a bigger problem than the tories.
Bodies Without Organs
17-02-2006, 03:09
Tell me,why did the UK join the (EU) in the first place?
Why didn't they resist?Because we had Labour in power. Not new labour or Old labour but labour. Where we looked like pushmepullme's and dressed in sunday suits while drinking tea and smelling flowers.

Or more likely had a devastated economy almost as bad as germanies is now.

Uh-huh. This was the Labour party as lead by Ted Heath, was it? Learn some fucking history.
Neu Leonstein
17-02-2006, 03:11
Troll. :rolleyes:
But a funny one. I like sarcasm.
Call to power
17-02-2006, 03:12
I have quite a jolly view of the U.K at the moment it really isn't too bad in my view even the weather is getting better (soon it will be hotter than Spain hurrah for global warming) particularly considering labour hasn't done anything to upset me and election polls shows everyone else is happy enough for another term of labour.

mind you when I was 14 I wanted to move to the U.S.A thinking it was a better place then I realised it really isn't
Europa Maxima
17-02-2006, 03:13
But a funny one. I like sarcasm.
Moderately amusing, yes.