NationStates Jolt Archive

what level physics? like high school physics or real physics/

edit: wait gravity is caused by stuff moving? gravity is a force, forces create motion not the other way around, obviously your physics is flawed, it is 3 40 am here, you are no long worth my time, as much as id like to tell you exactly what i think i must go

yeah they sure got lucky when they guessed the universe was 9000 years old, that we evolved from apes, but adam and eve were created for the hell of it? and the sun rotating around the earth, yeah that was a luck guess too,
and the earth being flayt and all, i dont want to piss you of cause i dont want you to push me off the edge or anyting.
When atoms "lose" energy it is being released by the electron shifting to a lower energy leverl, thus losing its extra energy, sooner or later it will gain the energy back
this is a bad example i know it had flaws but: when you spend money, the money doesnt disapear, its is given to something else, (its a bad example because you can destroy money)
thats just made u look like a retard.....
the bible for one doesnt say at all that the world is 9k years old ( some dumb pope decided that out of his ass) or that the sun rotates around the earth(once agian i think it was a pope) or that the earth is flat ( i think it was the greeks)... and not sure on what you mean by the ape part.
If u make a fire what happenes to the energy? it goes back to the fire and the fire keeps going, no u have to add move fuel. samething with stars and such, at some point all there would be is heat energy in a endless void thus being anything worth a damn and if there is no begining then this should have happened by now.

what level physics? like high school physics or real physics/

edit: wait gravity is caused by stuff moving? gravity is a force, forces create motion not the other way around, obviously your physics is flawed, it is 3 40 am here, you are no long worth my time, as much as id like to tell you exactly what i think i must go
its late here too so i may be wrong a bit on me physics but motion technically makes force.

your thinking way too high scale, firewood, come on man your embarassing yourself here. well i dont pride myself on knowing too much about religion, and you obviously dot know much about pyhsics, (yet you thikn you do)
eye level of burning wood: light wood on fire, heat comes out, light comes out, wood disapears.
sub atomic level there is potential and kinetic energy, when you lift something you are using kinetic energy, when you hold the object up it was potential energy, becauseif you let go it will fall and the potential energy will be transformed into kinetic energy.
quarks are not particles, i dont care if you dont think so, its been proven, unlike your dogma,
and just because i dont have a religon or beleive in god doesnt mean im immoral, im more richeous then you, im not anti gay, im not anti feminist, i dont support the use of animals as a commodity (im vegan) i hold the door open for old womyn, i say please and thank you, im just like you except when i stopped beleiving in santa claus i stopped beleiving in the easter bunny, tooth fairy and god

its late here too so i may be wrong a bit on me physics but motion technically makes force.

no it doesnt, please research this stuff man, your really making a fool of yourself

well you still havent answered my questions and u missed my point totally, its not about 'energy' being lost or not its where it goes. If a Star makes light and that light keeps going and leaves the universe i would consider it lost to the void, never to be used again or have any function. given enough time this would happen to everything, would take a butt load of time. so if there is no begining of time or quarks and everything has been here and going on this cycle then nothing would be here except a lot of light moving thru a big void of space imo.

and i wasnt wrong on any of my physics, the more quarks u have the move gravity u will find, correct? and if they are still there will be less gravity than if they were moving, cause that adds force, technical its not gravity per say, but close enough.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

The Holy Spirit converts according to the bible, not human kind. God is a God of love which is shown through actions not just words. One is saved by God's grace, through faith, however faith without works is dead. My faith in Christ, cause one has to have faith in whatever one believes in the end, comes partially from the fact where I look at the way science works and note that from my viewpoint for all this to just come together without a higher power would be extremely coincidental. Time Magainze Dec 18, 1995 cover story (which one can find in most libraries) has a story noting what in the bible has already been proven as fact, and what has not. Again my suggestion with knowing God is to read the bible. Pray and he will lead you. The book of John in the bible is always a good place to start. The book of Proverbs has some good advice for living though not all of it will make sense to the first time reader. Hopes this helps and feel free to message me with questions if you ever have any.

Congrats your fairy tale stories and constant demand of the answer to the question why? has convinced me that i am stupid not to beleive in some mythical creature, that is all knowing.. what seperates your god form zeus, gods dont make lightning, but they did back then. in a few years, long after we are both dead science will prove your god didnt create anything, then a new god will arise with more questions... its the fight of knowledge against dogma, everyone knows science will overcome religon, its a matter of time.

and i wasnt wrong on any of my physics, the more quarks u have the move gravity u will find, correct? and if they are still there will be less gravity than if they were moving, cause that adds force, technical its not gravity per say, but close enough.
no, galilao proved that wrong back in the 1600 but you chruch people killed him

im going to bed, good luck,
and i hope you know when your die your not going to heaven, hell or even purgatory, the mind is dependant on the body, without your nothing just like everyone else. there is no afterlife, now if you will excuse me im off to laugh myself to sleep.

pffffft stupid religous types look up the word dogma

Is it at all possible, that if energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Than energy, which is the essence of all that is living, must be God. God is infinite, like energy. God is everywhere, like energy. God is in terms of purely scientific reasoning, is energy.

I know that concept seems quite bizarre, but how much harder to believe is this concept than that of any modern faith today. The only thing i can truly argue from the standpoint of an Agnostic is that i can come up with basically any idea i want to about the afterlife, and no one can prove me wrong.

No wonder this argument is 18 pages long....

Dandria

[QUOTE=FLRJ]well, you want to belive into something, but you want scientific claims to prove it? why not becoming a budhist then? the point of it is to belive into yourself and reincarnation and not in divinities or demigods. at least, thats what i'd take if i were an atheist. i'm an agnostic ;)


Budhists do believe in demigods. One of my friends is Budhist, he is a fob from Japan and there are over 2000 demi gods that are officaly reconigsed in Japan alone. btw India has Sheeva (or how ever u spell it)

Budhists do believe in demigods. One of my friends is Budhist, he is a fob from Japan and there are over 2000 demi gods that are officaly reconigsed in Japan alone.
You're thinking Shinto. Different things.

Ok lets just say you are Jesus and you are a fraud. why would u make up a religion that leads to your brutal death and no way of knowing the new religion will go anywhere. also no historian or scienctist has ever proved everything in the bible to be wrong and there has been a lot of people who have tried.
Hope you don't mind me interjecting.

Jesus didn't invent a religion. He was a spiritual philosopher with some radical ideas; the religion grew up around him, not under him. It mattered not one jot to him that he'd be considered some sort of icon. All he wanted was for people to take note of his ideas. It was the people who followed after him and those who heard of his exploits that made Christianity an Organisation rather than the simple state of mind it should have been.

Next, not everything in the bible needs to be proved wrong. If there are even any invalidities, it cannot all be held to be infallible. However, being historically accurate isn't the point of the Bible. It's about Mythological Truth. We're supposed to look at underlying message rather than surface details, which may themselves be complete nonsense out of context.

Congrats your fairy tale stories and constant demand of the answer to the question why? has convinced me that i am stupid not to beleive in some mythical creature, that is all knowing.. what seperates your god form zeus, gods dont make lightning, but they did back then. in a few years, long after we are both dead science will prove your god didnt create anything, then a new god will arise with more questions... its the fight of knowledge against dogma, everyone knows science will overcome religon, its a matter of time.

Prey tell, what gives you the impression that religion and science are two great forces locked in a mighty battle?

Hope you don't mind me interjecting.

Jesus didn't invent a religion. He was a spiritual philosopher with some radical ideas; the religion grew up around him, not under him. It mattered not one jot to him that he'd be considered some sort of icon. All he wanted was for people to take note of his ideas. It was the people who followed after him and those who heard of his exploits that made Christianity an Organisation rather than the simple state of mind it should have been.

I good idea, but I'm afraid that's not really a scriptural interpretation of Jesus' intentions, and thus it has a rather shaky standing if you want to take it as more than just a hypothesis.

Prey tell, what gives you the impression that religion and science are two great forces locked in a mighty battle?

"Magical Thinking" / "More Persecuted Than Thou" Syndrome.

"Magical Thinking" / "More Persecuted Than Thou" Syndrome.

Christianity as a whole has, I'm afraid, a very big martyrship complex. I think this neurotic fear of persecution and attack has added to their belief that science is attacking them.

But I find it more difficult to understand why the secular world seems to feel that religion is threatening them...

I good idea, but I'm afraid that's not really a scriptural interpretation of Jesus' intentions, and thus it has a rather shaky standing if you want to take it as more than just a hypothesis.
Well, regardless of intentions, Scripture (Acts) certainly suggests that it was the disciples, not Christ, who made a religion out of Jesus. It has been strongly suggested that Paul played the key role in forming Christianity as we know it.

If you really want more concrete backing, take a look at Jesus's sense of the "Divine Secret" (particularly in Mark), his attitude to the temples and, in fact, his very claim to be God incarnate - throughout, he makes various hints that he refers not only to himself, but also to those listening to him when he says that. Why do you think he starts the Lord's Prayer with "Our Father"?

Jesus's whole notion of divinity is quite clearly a full rejection of the common monotheistic religiosity of his time. That Christianity adopts that very sense has roots not in Gospel but in the Letters. It's those who come after him, not he himself, that create the Organisation.

Christianity as a whole has, I'm afraid, a very big martyrship complex. I think this neurotic fear of persecution and attack has added to their belief that science is attacking them.

But I find it more difficult to understand why the secular world seems to feel that religion is threatening them...

Martyr complexes (complices?) aren't unique to Christianity. I think that many people like to feel that they're being persecuted in some fashion so they don't have to guilty about persecuting others. Lack of religion doesn't make a secularist (is that even a word?) immune to this. It does, in fact, seem to encourage it in the same way being a Christian does.

Christianity as a whole has, I'm afraid, a very big martyrship complex. I think this neurotic fear of persecution and attack has added to their belief that science is attacking them.

But I find it more difficult to understand why the secular world seems to feel that religion is threatening them...

It isnt religion per se that I feel threatens me, but rather people OF religion.
Its the religious right in my country, that want to change the law, to prohibit an act they feel is wrong, regardless of the harm it will do.
They feel that the way they believe, takes precedence over my rights.

Religious zealotism will destroy the world.
Look what its already doing in the Middle East.
Closed minded fools who yell the loudest are often the only ones who get heard, and over there, some zealotous asswipes, are making a stink over some silly cartoon.

So, its not Christianity that is ruining this county, just crazy christians in charge who are making assinine decisions.
These people would probably be assholes, no matter what faith they were, but the ones currently in power, are stripping away pur freedom, becuase they think thats what "God" wants.

Well, regardless of intentions, Scripture (Acts) certainly suggests that it was the disciples, not Christ, who made a religion out of Jesus. It has been strongly suggested that Paul played the key role in forming Christianity as we know it.

If you really want more concrete backing, take a look at Jesus's sense of the "Divine Secret" (particularly in Mark), his attitude to the temples and, in fact, his very claim to be God incarnate - throughout, he makes various hints that he refers not only to himself, but also to those listening to him when he says that. Why do you think he starts the Lord's Prayer with "Our Father"?

Jesus's whole notion of divinity is quite clearly a full rejection of the common monotheistic religiosity of his time. That Christianity adopts that very sense has roots not in Gospel but in the Letters. It's those who come after him, not he himself, that create the Organisation.

Jesus, of course, did not lead the origional church in forming Christianity, but you cannot really claim that the scriptures themselves do not support the idea that Jesus came to start a religion. Numerous times he gives them instructions to go out and make diciples of others, and he even explicitly calls upon Peter to become the foundation of the church (Mat 16:18, though this passage is debated hotly due to its implications on papal infallibility).

Now, there is also the argument that these instructions of Jesus were inserted into the Gospel by the writers, who of course would then be adding validity to the very community they were a part of. However, this argument is not scripturally orientated, and because of the lack of other sources of the words of Jesus, that is really all we have to go by.

It isnt religion per se that I feel threatens me, but rather people OF religion.
Its the religious right in my country, that want to change the law, to prohibit an act they feel is wrong, regardless of the harm it will do.
They feel that the way they believe, takes precedence over my rights.

Religious zealotism will destroy the world.
Look what its already doing in the Middle East.
Closed minded fools who yell the loudest are often the only ones who get heard, and over there, some zealotous asswipes, are making a stink over some silly cartoon.

So, its not Christianity that is ruining this county, just crazy christians in charge who are making assinine decisions.
These people would probably be assholes, no matter what faith they were, but the ones currently in power, are stripping away pur freedom, becuase they think thats what "God" wants.

If secular individuals have a problem with Christians rather than Christianity, then that definition needs to be made. A simple distinction like that changes what a person says from being rational to bigotous (if thats a word, but you get what I mean).

Jesus, of course, did not lead the origional church in forming Christianity, but you cannot really claim that the scriptures themselves do not support the idea that Jesus came to start a religion. Numerous times he gives them instructions to go out and make diciples of others, and he even explicitly calls upon Peter to become the foundation of the church (Mat 16:18, though this passage is debated hotly due to its implications on papal infallibility).
Sure you can. The word for "Church", used only twice in the entirity of the Gospels, is used in the Greek translation of the old Testament to refer to an Israelite congregation, or in general Greek for simply "a free assembly". A disciple, in turn, does not mean a worshipper of, but rather an apprentice of.

I'm going to argue the counter-point. Ignoring the post-resurrection stories for the moment, there is much more evidence in the source to suggest that the Living Jesus did not come to start a religious organisation with himself as the focus than that he did.

If secular individuals have a problem with Christians rather than Christianity, then that definition needs to be made. A simple distinction like that changes what a person says from being rational to bigotous (if thats a word, but you get what I mean).Funny. I feel the exact opposite way. I fail to see how the religion (not the followers) can be thought of as anything but evil. The most basic concept is one of social scism & segregation.
Christians & non-Christians are seperate. Non-Christians are damned, no matter who they are or what they do. Christians are the chosen, forgiven ones - regardless of what they do.
The ideology bears an uncanny resemblance to that of fanatical Neo-Nazis, if you ask me.

I have no problem with the vast majority of the followers though. They act nothing like one would expect. Only a fraction feel the need to force their religion of hate on others - and that's perfectly acceptable to me. I'm certain they'd be using another excuse for being assholes, if they didn't have Christianity

It is possible that there a god or being or something that destroyed itself to make the big bang and create everything else. But then how do we know of it? It couldnt exist unless the universe as we know it didn't.

My argument is that, if God or some omnipotent, omniscient force was the trigger for the event which caused another event which in turn caused more events etc... then God could be in entire control of the lives that we lead today and we wouldn't even know it. If our actions are based on reasoning based on other actions, then it would only take one event, the 'Big Bang' perhaps, to cause a ripple effect that could control every aspect of the universe.

If secular individuals have a problem with Christians rather than Christianity, then that definition needs to be made. A simple distinction like that changes what a person says from being rational to bigotous (if thats a word, but you get what I mean).


Well, the problem is that there is no solid representation of Christianity, other than its followers.
Unfortunately, the only ones most of us ever hear from, are the loud-mouthed arrogant bastard type, like Falwell, or Pat Roberts.

So, if secularists fear Christianity, its becuase of its extreme followers, and the distiction becomes less clear.

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims

Yeah, others have brought up this point. I've heard both from intelligent clergy and scientists one basic truth: science cannot and never will substantiate faith. And scientists who try to disprove/Christians that try to support faith with scientific backing are using science for their own egos. Science can never prove Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven (desite crackpot theories in both camps), Muhammed went to Seventh Heaven with Gabriel, or Siddartha gained enlightenment. One must learn to keep the domains of science and faith separate, and recognize the validity of both in people's lives.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm a Christian, which is due to my upbringing and my choice to continue in faith. I believe life is too meaningful for their not to be something/someone behind it (but keep that idea away from science: no "Intelligent Design" Theories legitimized, please!). You decision to follow faith has to come of your own accord, not how many Bible verses I can quote to you on how you will go to hell if you don't "get saved." Just know that following a faith (unlike science) requires a level of naivete (some would say ignorance, perhaps where we get "ignorance is bliss...").

"Amen, I say to you, unless you accept the words I say like a little child, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

This is the essence of faith: simplicity.

Just keep telling yourself that and all will be fine. Really.


I have yet to find proof that supports these claims, but appearently some people know where to look and I don't. Thus far, I am still wandering through the galaxy, not knowing.

I take it that's because you don't WANT to know. Your first comment said that in black and white. :rolleyes:

This is directed at Yttiria, as well.

Judging by your comments, you've literally blinded yourselves to see the truth. Well, I'm going to try not to bring up a dozen arguments as to why Christianity is the truth (the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, hehe :p). Obviously, people don't seem to want that. Instead, I'm going to give you a few simple explanations, and straightforward proof to show you that Christianity isn't just a book on the shelf you got from your aunt.

I was born in a Christian household, grew in a Christian family, and led a Christian life. I still am. And by heck it ain't easy, I'll tell you that much. But because I love God so much, I keep walking the 'straight-and-narrow', as they call it. But I've strayed once or twice in my time.

And that's where faith comes in.

God isn't a substance. He isn't, in the physical sense, real. According to the five senses - touch, taste, hear, smell and see - God doesn't exist.
But He is proven by the sixth sense. Faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and things not seen.

A lot of people say that 'Science does not prove God'. Pfah. Ever listen to the radio? Scientists are beginning to realise that there IS a Higher Intelligence. I can't believe that a big explosion could make the smallest possible germ have a better mechanical engine than our best cars. No, really. I saw a documentary on it.
Alright, get this. I didn't make this up.

Tell me, do you have a mind?
Yes?
Well, can you prove it to me?
The only evidence that you have a mind is the brain. Well, no. The brain is just what controls the body. Can science prove that you can think, can feel emotion?
Therefore, according to science, you do not have a mind.
But, and here's the key point, you KNOW you do. Well, how do you know?
Faith.
And if faith proves you have a mind, doesn't faith prove that God exists?
There are hundreds, thousands, possibly even millions of people in this world, and those who have passed away, who have that faith. So, according to the sixth sense, faith, God does exist.

Have you got an opposing theory? I'd love to hear it. No, really. Prove me wrong.

Oh yeah, and now for the proof. But you only have my word for this. You can only believe what I say if you want to believe. If you don't, that's fine. There are plenty of happy atheists out there.

This is going to sound very, very stupid, because so many people mock it (flying spaghetti monsters, anyone?). But as a Christian, I am honest.

I have met God. I have been in His presence. Oh, I couldn't see him, sure. But I knew I was. I felt happy. Content. Glad. Joyous. So happy I could cry. Unearthly happiness. It's like being on drugs.

And when you get the Holy Spirit? Think being on the strongest, most insanely crazily happy drug you can imagine, and times it by 5. That's what it's like to be with God. I thought I was going to die, I was laughing so hard my cheeks felt like they could explode, and crying so much my eyes hurt, and feeling so weak I couldn't even stand up.

That lasted, say, half an hour. Maybe less. You kinda lose track of time when you're so happy you're going to explode.

I'd swear that evidence on the Bible in a court of law. Take it or leave it.

(by the way, it's 11 at night so I couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing. Sorry if I'm five pages behind. ;)

Jesus's whole notion of divinity is quite clearly a full rejection of the common monotheistic religiosity of his time. That Christianity adopts that very sense has roots not in Gospel but in the Letters. It's those who come after him, not he himself, that create the Organisation.

Funny how Jesus's plan to stop corrupt institutionalized religion led to the formation of more corrupt institutionalized religion (and one could make the argument Luther, Calvin, etc, had the same thing happen with their forms of Protestantism, originally meant as a means of reform from the Roman Catholic Church).

Ah, I see. It is better to accept an easy answer than to take the time find the true one.


I think you'll find a lot of christians didn't convert simply because it was easy. Many of them (myself included) looked into alternatives and came back to Christianity, because quite simply, it makes more sense than anything else I know.
After realising that, I did come to understand more of the 'supernatural' qualities of God, and how Jesus did exist, etc.

That's just me

Funny how Jesus's plan to stop corrupt institutionalized religion led to the formation of more corrupt institutionalized religion (and one could make the argument Luther, Calvin, etc, had the same thing happen with their forms of Protestantism, originally meant as a means of reform from the Roman Catholic Church).


Good point.

Unfortunately, as humans we will never make it to perfection (sorry guys!). Plus, God gave us free will, so there will always be conflict between humans, even if they share the same religion, simply because we have our own opinions.

Tell me, do you have a mind?
Yes?
Well, can you prove it to me?
The only evidence that you have a mind is the brain. Well, no. The brain is just what controls the body. Can science prove that you can think, can feel emotion?
Therefore, according to science, you do not have a mind.

Wrong.

Science can certainly tell us these things.
Why it can even tell us wich biochemicals are attributed to wich particular emotion.

How on earth did you think anti-depressants work?

See: Seratonin.

And when you get the Holy Spirit? Think being on the strongest, most insanely crazily happy drug you can imagine, and times it by 5. That's what it's like to be with God.

I'd say it's more than 5 times mate ;) but I see what you mean :D

Wrong.

Science can certainly tell us these things.
Why it can even tell us wich biochemicals are attributed to wich particular emotion.

How on earth did you think anti-depressants work?

See: Seratonin.


But where did the brain come from, and how did it develop to be such an incredibly fine-tuned piece of engineering?

Funny how Jesus's plan to stop corrupt institutionalized religion led to the formation of more corrupt institutionalized religion.
Izzactly. If you wanted to shield the world from Jesus's revolutionary ideas, Paul's response would the perfect one to go for.

But where did the brain come from, and how did it develop to be such an incredibly fine-tuned piece of engineering?


Its not a finely-tuned piece of anything.

People only use ten to eleven percent of thier brains.
Practically speaking, that means 89% of it, is useless.

Hardly anything any such creator would likely brag about.

Its not a finely-tuned piece of anything.

People only use ten to eleven percent of thier brains.
Practically speaking, that means 89% of it, is useless.

Hardly anything any such creator would likely brag about.


Actually, I didn't know that.

But doesn't that mean there is so much more potential that we don't use?

I think my brain is amazing. Obviously you don't think yours is great, but then that's your opinion.

"There is no god" is as much a stance against the Christian concept of God as a stance against a Muslim, Jewish, Egyptian or Greek concept of god. You'll find that when an argument is good against one god it's good against any god.

For example: coercion. Most religion have a belief in an after-life with a good result (say heaven) and a bad result (say hell) and the tenet that you have to be "good" not to get a nasty result, specifically: the bad place.

Most atheists balk at the concept of coercion. And refuse to acknowledge the view of one religion as being the definitive authority on what is "good".

and for the record, I'd suggest you look into the quote function. It would save the both of us time.

Hey East you're back.

Okay I'm going to ignore the first bit, coz you totaly misunderstood what I'm saying.
I will just say,that my rant(and you are right for that's what it was) was not against people atacking my beliefs but the typical Atheist view that us 'Theists' are stupid for beliving in God without proof. Before you ask me to show you where iin this post I have encounterd this, first look back and see, secondly I mean in my experiances.

Okay that out of the way, lets get on with this:

So one stance against one view of God works with all other views of God.
Nope it don't, lets stick with your coercion thing then. There is no coercion in my faith, you can belive or not. Everybody gets to God in the end, if you choose not to belive in this life then fine coz Gods love is soooo huge that God will give you every chance until you find God. There is no heaven and there is no hell., God does not punish anybody, ever.

Come on then use your anti Christian arguments against that one huh.

What is the "validity" of no faith in God? That doesn't mean much to me.

I take it you say "proof" is subjective/relative in that it must have an agent, that being the individual to whom something is being proven. But then, it is not the "proof" (evidence) itself that is subjective, but the "it is proven".

Also, something deemed "subjective" does not automatically cease to exist; you imply that there is no proof because it is subjective. I say, the fact that something is proven is what is subjective. If God is proven to someone, for themselves, then that is subjective; if there is no proof (evidence), then there is nothing to "be proven" about, so nothing to be subjective about.

Hey Willamena,

What I mean is that both beliving and not beliving in God are valid modes of thought, obviously if you have a strong faith in God, you may dissagree with this. But seeing as neither mode of though is provabley the correct one then both are valid.

When I say all proof is subjective I mean, all proof of anything that we think we know is at the very least relative to us as a species, if not relative on a cultural, or even personal level.

I imply that all proofs are subjective, it is in fact one of my major philosopies on life, and I am convinced of it's merits, heheh of course though I realise that my truth is purley subjective and relative to me. I did not suggest that proof does not exist but that it is relative.

The Turin Shroud wasn't Jesus; it was the calcified image of Jacques de Molay (last Grand Master of the Knights Templar) after he was tortured into confessing to a wide array of crimes he didn't commit.

I though it had already been proved to be a middle ages fake?

What's so special about it anyway?

Surely the fact that Jesus actually existed isn't in question is it?

Christianity as a whole has, I'm afraid, a very big martyrship complex. I think this neurotic fear of persecution and attack has added to their belief that science is attacking them.

But I find it more difficult to understand why the secular world seems to feel that religion is threatening them...

Yeah but Christianity is Christianity not thw whole of religion. I agree I don't understand this ill feeling between science and faith, they do both go hand in hand ya know.

What's so special about it anyway?

Surely the fact that Jesus actually existed isn't in question is it?

Actually it is. If you want to prove that he did then please produce one piece of contemporary evidence.

I though it had already been proved to be a middle ages fake?

It has been proved to be a fake beyond reasonable doubt.

It isnt religion per se that I feel threatens me, but rather people OF religion.
Its the religious right in my country, that want to change the law, to prohibit an act they feel is wrong, regardless of the harm it will do.
They feel that the way they believe, takes precedence over my rights.

Religious zealotism will destroy the world.
Look what its already doing in the Middle East.
Closed minded fools who yell the loudest are often the only ones who get heard, and over there, some zealotous asswipes, are making a stink over some silly cartoon.

So, its not Christianity that is ruining this county, just crazy christians in charge who are making assinine decisions.
These people would probably be assholes, no matter what faith they were, but the ones currently in power, are stripping away pur freedom, becuase they think thats what "God" wants.


Then don't vote them in. In fact make sure that naybody of faith is not alowwed to be in politics, it's the safest way.

actually jesus did exist. it was recorded by a Roman sent to record things about Israel. the fact that a nonbeliever wrote this means the evidence is credible.

actually jesus did exist. it was recorded by a Roman sent to record things about Israel. the fact that a nonbeliever wrote this means the evidence is credible.

Could I have a link for that?

Its not a finely-tuned piece of anything.

People only use ten to eleven percent of thier brains.
Practically speaking, that means 89% of it, is useless.

Hardly anything any such creator would likely brag about.

Yeah I also don't get this. If I eat 10% of a cake then the 90% left is usless?

For one thing this 10% come out of nowhere how do we know this are yo absolutley sure we only use 10% of our brains? Or are you just saying what you have heard and take on faith coz so many people say it.

Even if it is true, it doesn't mean that the rest is usless, what if it is the for backup porposes? I know a little on the workings of the brain and what I do know is that new pathways are opend in the brain constantly, so instead of being the usless 89% it could just as well be backup brain in case a bit gets damaged. In fact there is evidance to suggest that when a part of the brain does get damaged, any part re-routes itself to take over functions of the damaged part.

It has been proved to be a fake beyond reasonable doubt.


Heh yeah that is what I thoguht.

Hey East you're back.

Okay I'm going to ignore the first bit, coz you totaly misunderstood what I'm saying.
I will just say,that my rant(and you are right for that's what it was) was not against people atacking my beliefs but the typical Atheist view that us 'Theists' are stupid for beliving in God without proof. Before you ask me to show you where iin this post I have encounterd this, first look back and see, secondly I mean in my experiances.
Okay, totally misread your intention. Let's forget the whole thing. :D

Okay that out of the way, lets get on with this:

So one stance against one view of God works with all other views of God.
Nope it don't, lets stick with your coercion thing then. There is no coercion in my faith, you can belive or not. Everybody gets to God in the end, if you choose not to belive in this life then fine coz Gods love is soooo huge that God will give you every chance until you find God. There is no heaven and there is no hell., God does not punish anybody, ever.

Come on then use your anti Christian arguments against that one huh.
You'll have to explain your faith to me 'cause I don't know what I'm trying to attack. I'm not about to attack only one part of your faith.

But for the hell of it, your faith's view on coercion changes nothing whether there is a god or not. So wht is the point in believing and molding my life on the teaching of something that has no effect on my life. Heck, I could be the meanest evilest son of a whore and your god would still love me and forgive me. So, in the end it is moot whther there is a god, except for the fact that one has to wonder what kind of crazy god it is to accept all this toiling and suffering just for the sake of an all-important concept such as love.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.
you should stay an atheist. god does not exist, and there needs to be more people in this world that can knick some sense into all these evil christians.

Could I have a link for that?
I can't find one, but it was on the news once. They said something about finding a transcript about him written by a Roman.

I can't find one, but it was on the news once. They said something about finding a transcript about him written by a Roman.

Yeh I heard that too. I'm sure if you google it, you'll find lots of people acknowledging his existance. That isn't really in question. What is in question is 'is he God?'

Yeh I heard that too. I'm sure if you google it, you'll find lots of people acknowledging his existance. That isn't really in question. What is in question is 'is he God?'

Really? I'm questioning it and nobody's presented me with any contemporary evidence yet so I'm feeling pretty justified in my questioning.

you should stay an atheist. god does not exist, and there needs to be more people in this world that can knick some sense into all these evil christians.

Finally someone who makes sense. There is no God and it is possible for more than a billion people to be wrong about this.:headbang:

You are not that mighty.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

The important question is, do you think he's real? The idea that a person converts another isn't entirely accurate. One has to first find someone seeking conversion, doesn't matter whether it's religion, politics, whatever. Most people would sooner shoot themselves then change their minds on anything major.

Okay, totally misread your intention. Let's forget the whole thing. :D


You'll have to explain your faith to me 'cause I don't know what I'm trying to attack. I'm not about to attack only one part of your faith.

But for the hell of it, your faith's view on coercion changes nothing whether there is a god or not. So wht is the point in believing and molding my life on the teaching of something that has no effect on my life. Heck, I could be the meanest evilest son of a whore and your god would still love me and forgive me. So, in the end it is moot whther there is a god, except for the fact that one has to wonder what kind of crazy god it is to accept all this toiling and suffering just for the sake of an all-important concept such as love.


Well i't going to take too long to explain my faith, how about you use your anti Chritian retorhric on me and I'll explain why that is not applicable to my faith, then if you like I'll give you time to shift around your arguments.

My view on coercion certianly does not change wheter there is God or not you are right, but neither does it prove there isn't God.
However to answer you. The point in beliving is to become one with God, if you are evilest son of a whore then obviously your chances of finding God this time are nil. However you don't get punsihed, unless of course your view is that life without God is punishment. But as I say you ask whats the point then fine, if you can see no point, then you do not reach God this time, and will have to wait your next chance.

Not punishing bad behaviour is not the same as rewarding good behaviour.

Finally someone who makes sense. There is no God and it is possible for more than a billion people to be wrong about this.:headbang:


Are you quite sure abut that then? Can you prove it?

Well i't going to take too long to explain my faith, how about you use your anti Chritian retorhric on me and I'll explain why that is not applicable to my faith, then if you like I'll give you time to shift around your arguments.

My view on coercion certianly does not change wheter there is God or not you are right, but neither does it prove there isn't God.
However to answer you. The point in beliving is to become one with God, if you are evilest son of a whore then obviously your chances of finding God this time are nil. However you don't get punsihed, unless of course your view is that life without God is punishment. But as I say you ask whats the point then fine, if you can see no point, then you do not reach God this time, and will have to wait your next chance.

Not punishing bad behaviour is not the same as rewarding good behaviour.
okay, let me get this straight...

You rant that Atheists use mainly anti-christian arguments to attack religion.
I call you on that.
Then you ask me to proove there is no god (see how the burden of proof shifted there?) and to disproove your religious view using anti-christians arguments.
Proving your point that atheists use mainly anti-christians arguments.

Well excuse me for answering your questions in the first place. Had I known it was a trap to proove your point, I'd have walked past and no dive right in it.

So why don't we forget the whole thing.

You are not that mighty.
Its just a nation name.

okay, let me get this straight...

You rant that Atheists use mainly anti-christian arguments to attack religion.
I call you on that.
Then you ask me to proove there is no god (see how the burden of proof shifted there?) and to disproove your religious view using anti-christians arguments.
Proving your point that atheists use mainly anti-christians arguments.

Well excuse me for answering your questions in the first place. Had I known it was a trap to proove your point, I'd have walked past and no dive right in it.

So why don't we forget the whole thing.

Hey hey East,

Man calm down, Yes I did rant about atheists using arguments against the Christian view of God to show that God does not exist, or to validify their stance. I also suggested that if encountered with a view of God that wsn;t Christian then these arguments would not work and thus be invalid.

I did not ask you to disprove Gods existance at all ever anywhere. What I did say was that it would take to long for me adaqautely explain to you my faith, so in light of my original rant, and in the spirit of trying to get my point across, I asked you to try to do exactly what I say you cannot.

Which is invalidate my faith using typical anti Chritain arguments.

If you now say that youdo not wish to to tgis then fine. If however you feel that my point is wrong, then by all means I give you every chance to validate to me your stance. As to it being a trap, soooo when philosophiseing we are not alowed to do that then? I cannot try to lead you into a logical trap because?

Ohh unless you can see no way out of it and thus prove my stance to be the correct one, meaning that you cannot except that your stance is wrong, meaning your atheism is not on that solid a ground?

You'll realise when you read the passage above that I am indeed trying to goad you into the argument, you can however choose to turn tail and run if you like.

Its not a finely-tuned piece of anything.

People only use ten to eleven percent of thier brains.
Practically speaking, that means 89% of it, is useless.

Hardly anything any such creator would likely brag about.

According to snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm) the 10% thing is just a myth.

O.K. Let's see what may be done here.

Being a student in theology (no I'm not some reborn fundamentalist thank you I'm fine and you would like me if you knew me says my mum ;) ) I happen to know some unprejudiced theories about the real being of conversion. For those interested:

Conversion is a "rite the passage", a social and mental changing of social classification and therefor also of apropiate behaviour. -Social classification denoting nothing more than: you were an atheist, you become a christian, or similar.

The road map of conversion is this:

1) You become separated from the group you have belonged to so far

2) Either alone or with peolple going through the same life change, you go through some signifying traditional actions - be it a feast, a baptising, a period of mental arousement, you name it... During this stage you have no social status and no classification; this insecurity is a major part of any ritual, including conversion. It is during this stage that you may learn most of the behaviour that is considered apropiate with the new status you hope to achieve - i.e. you learn what will be expected from you when you become a christian or similar.

3) You enter a new group, being recognized as a member of that group be established member(s) of aforesaid group (for instance a minister). Having a new social status/classification, you will also be considered fit to confront members of the group you have left.

So far, it seems to me that you have allready separated yourself from the group of atheists by your desire to be converted. You might heed to my advise not to stay in stage two of the conversion plan for to long... The obstacle to conversion you've put for yourself is that you want to be convinced of God's existence on beforehand.

When you would interview converts or read about them, you would find that most of them were convinced of God's existence only after they had been converted. It was only then, they knew because He had "Shown them". Perhaps you should lower your demands a bit, if not for God then for yourself. What would you think of: I want to be convinced about God's existence beyond REASONABLE doubt. (God cannot be reasonably "proven", nor can anyone prove a non-existence of any kind, so stop tormenting yourself with demands like that!)

As for the rest of your possible conversion: why don't you start reading the Bible or praying? You won't oblige yourself in any way by doing so, but it is a good way nontheless to know what you may or may not become a part of.
If you need any words for prayer:

1) God, I need help believing. Please send Your Holy Spirit/ Please come into my hart.

When you suddenly feel that these words start meaning something for you, you're almost there. -Conversion remains, I'm sorry to say, a matter that requiers some effort from yourself as well as from others. This is only a possible guide for your part of the deal.

If you think you need some words more to pray, here's a golden oldy:

Our Father, Who art in Heaven,
Praised be thy name
May Your kingdom come
May Your will be done
on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us these days our daily bread
and forgive us our sins
as whe should forgive those who sinned against us.
Lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from Evil
For Yours is the kingdom
and the power and the glory
For ever and ever.

And there's plenty more of this stuff; but I won't post it for now.
Please contact me if you think you're up to it.

Yours sincerily,

According to snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm) the 10% thing is just a myth.
And Snopes.com is never wrong!:) :rolleyes:

Hey hey East,

Man calm down, Yes I did rant about atheists using arguments against the Christian view of God to show that God does not exist, or to validify their stance. I also suggested that if encountered with a view of God that wsn;t Christian then these arguments would not work and thus be invalid.
I am calm. You read into my words anger. I assure you i'm not.


I did not ask you to disprove Gods existance at all ever anywhere. What I did say was that it would take to long for me adaqautely explain to you my faith, so in light of my original rant, and in the spirit of trying to get my point across, I asked you to try to do exactly what I say you cannot.

Which is invalidate my faith using typical anti Chritain arguments.
Which kinda defeats the purpose. See how you bait another trap for me to fall into. Anti-christian arguments are good against christian faith. Let's use anti-religion as a whole argument instead, shall we?

If you now say that youdo not wish to to tgis then fine. If however you feel that my point is wrong, then by all means I give you every chance to validate to me your stance. As to it being a trap, soooo when philosophiseing we are not alowed to do that then? I cannot try to lead you into a logical trap because?
So when do I have to fall for your traps? In fact, where is it written that explaining what the other poster is trying to do not a valid way to debate like I just did? If we are going to argue philosophically, I'll say that I'm allowed the same bag of dirty tricks as you. Those involve traps, and calling such traps what they are. Nobody said I had to fall into the trap to disproove your point.

Ohh unless you can see no way out of it and thus prove my stance to be the correct one, meaning that you cannot except that your stance is wrong, meaning your atheism is not on that solid a ground?

You'll realise when you read the passage above that I am indeed trying to goad you into the argument, you can however choose to turn tail and run if you like.
Oh, but I can...

Let's look into what I know of your faith so far, specifically about coercion since we are on this subject matter.

The goal is to become one with god. If you don't act "good", you go back and try again. So there is a punishment for not acting "good". Specifically, repeating the existence. I suppose you have a view similar to reincarnation.

The whole reincarnation until you get it right is that: coercion. Crime and punishment. Sure, your religion view it as a reward if you act good instead of a punishment if you act bad, but it does amount to the same thing.

So the argument of coercion can be applied to your religion. Atheists viewing free will as existing cannot concieve a god that force humans to act good through coercion as it it the antithesis of free will. Therefore, just like christianity, your religion cannot be right.

Incidently I'm not sure why any religions would actually want the Ambassador. We're talking about a guy who regards torture as fine and has no qualms about murdering children.

Sorry, got caught up in the traffic. Did I miss anything?

*Hands PM some ice lollies*

I want a choc-ice.

Oh, but I can...

Let's look into what I know of your faith so far, specifically about coercion since we are on this subject matter.

The goal is to become one with god. If you don't act "good", you go back and try again. So there is a punishment for not acting "good". Specifically, repeating the existence. I suppose you have a view similar to reincarnation.

The whole reincarnation until you get it right is that: coercion. Crime and punishment. Sure, your religion view it as a reward if you act good instead of a punishment if you act bad, but it does amount to the same thing.

So the argument of coercion can be applied to your religion. Atheists viewing free will as existing cannot concieve a god that force humans to act good through coercion as it it the antithesis of free will. Therefore, just like christianity, your religion cannot be right.

Hey East,

Sorry I can't see the coercian you speak of here at all.
Look at it this way;

So your ill in bed and your mum or wife, brings up some chicken soup and says I'll leave this here, and when you are ready you can eat it.

No coercian, but the knowledge that you can at anytime reachout pickup the spoon and start eating.

God does not punish us, nor threaten to punish us if we do not want to reach for God, God just knows that everybody 'picks up the spoon' in the end.

Hey East,

Sorry I can't see the coercian you speak of here at all.
Look at it this way;

So your ill in bed and your mum or wife, brings up some chicken soup and says I'll leave this here, and when you are ready you can eat it.

No coercian, but the knowledge that you can at anytime reachout pickup the spoon and start eating.

God does not punish us, nor threaten to punish us if we do not want to reach for God, God just knows that everybody 'picks up the spoon' in the end.
false analogy since there is options outside picking up the spoon. Not so in your religious view. Your god say go back to bed until you have picked up the spoon. Therefore coercion.

As a somewhat more direct issue, what's the big deal with "Conversion" anyway? Anyone at any time for any reason can choose to call themselves a Christian, and in doing so they have effectively become as much a Christian as any other. Isn't that essentially the key point in being "a convert"; that you have taken upon yourself a different name?

false analogy since there is options outside picking up the spoon. Not so in your religious view. Your god say go back to bed until you have picked up the spoon. Therefore coercion.


Hey East,

Nope not quite right, in this anaolgy God is the spoon, but you are right there are other options you can decied not to pick the spoon up.

Still though, analogies aside, where is the coercion. God does not say come to me or else, just come to me.

As to the punishment you suggest that being on earth is the punishment. Now I know you don't belive that.

If you do not belive in God, and God says come to me, I will wait untill you do. Then as an atheist you cannot belive that being on earth is punishment from God. I don't see it that way.

Hey East,

Nope not quite right, in this anaolgy God is the spoon, but you are right there are other options you can decied not to pick the spoon up.

Still though, analogies aside, where is the coercion. God does not say come to me or else, just come to me.

As to the punishment you suggest that being on earth is the punishment. Now I know you don't belive that.

If you do not belive in God, and God says come to me, I will wait untill you do. Then as an atheist you cannot belive that being on earth is punishment from God. I don't see it that way.
Bold: your religious view.
Underscore: atheist view.

Now, I'm confused. Am I supposed to attack your religious views like you asked me to or do you want me to explain the atheistic view of things.

I cannot use an atheistic view of the world to shot down your religious view. I have to operate within your religious paradigm otherwise we'll run around in circles. So, under your religious views, yes being on earth is a punishment. Therefore coercion.

As for the atheistic view, there were never a mother to show you the spoon to begin with so it's rather moot as an analogy.

Ok lets just say you are Jesus and you are a fraud. why would u make up a religion that leads to your brutal death and no way of knowing the new religion will go anywhere. also no historian or scienctist has ever proved everything in the bible to be wrong and there has been a lot of people who have tried. besides the facts in the bible like the weather systems, pork having a disease in it at that time, and other medicial knowledge like germs and what not, without any way for people to know this information due to most wasnt proven tell centuries later with microscopes and such. yeah i guess the bible just got lucky on all their so called guesses?.

Taking the bible literally you can discover what was believe to be the age of the world by tracing the various lineages and families detailed in the bible back to their source (which was how the age of about 6000 years was concluded). The bible does say the Earth doesn't move (Psalms 19:5-6, among other places) and it also indicates that the Earth is flat and rests on four pillars (Job 26:11). Weather predictions are meaningless; the farmers almanacs have them and they are not divinely inspired. You do not need science or divine revelation to come to conclusions about medicine and health, only observation; other cultures have done it for many thousands of years without the help of science or the Christian God and many of them understood these matters far better than the old testament. For the prohibition on pork, that is simple. The intelligent people in the community notice that the people who eat pork become ill; so they conclude that God is behind it and doesn't want anyone to eat pork, or God is just used to convince the common people not to eat pork. These things weren't guesses so they needed no luck; and their guesses regarding the origin of life and the world were wrong. For Jesus being a fraud, I don't believe he was a con artist or anything like that; I think there is a good chance that he believe in what he preached and he definitely had a genuine concern for his fellow man. He didn't plan on being executed, but he expected it and was willing to die for his cause and beliefs. Attributes that make him remarkable, but not a demi-god. And do you believe that Krishna and Buddha were frauds?

Ga-halek it is true a lot of relgions have miracels and what not. and it could be true , i doubt it, that science just isnt far enough to find out how to replenish energy and matter. not sure on the whole if there is evolution there is no garden of eden point? i think the whole original sin happened around the time there a copule of different species of sapien. there was cromagnons(not spelled right) and such. If u read the bible it states that God made a species of man with was put in the garden of eden, and that when adam and eve left it they had children and such and around the time before noah those people started mixing in with the other species of man, hence where cromagnon went to, they mixed in with man and thus join with the now common species we have today. scienctists have found that cromagnon had a higher lvl of technology with meds and other items than other species of their time and had certain riturals, like buring the dead. also read my other post about science in the bible. Plus you cant disprove God, most of your posts are about crap imo that others have come up with in the past. also if your life isnt easy then wtf are u doing. without God or the bible there is no point in living a morale life or having it be hard. you should look to satanists and no i dont mean worship the devil, they have easy lifes and use your whole thing about making meaning of your life too.

personally i know what it feels like to have the holy spirit inside of me and have numerous prays answered and weird things happen that have no explaination but that there is a God, but no way of again proving anything. I guess either u have faith or u dont.

I have read the bible. The bible does state anything about another species of man who we mixed with (unless you are confused about the nephilhim but they are result of interbreeding between angels and humans and clearly are not real). Burial rituals were also done by neanderthals. Of course cromagnon (the correct term is homo sapians) had better technology, they were more intelligent than the other species. You are correct in that we can't disprove God since it is inherently extremely difficult to prove a negative; and the nature of "God" adds to this make him impossible to disprove. But in regard to Christianity; if you do some research into archaeology, history, and philology you will see that the origin of the beliefs of the Jews and Christians can be traced and are clearly as "man made" as any other religion. I can say with supreme confidence (enough confidence to stake my soul if I have one) that Christianity is a false religion. Morality contributes little to the difficulty of my life (which is not particularly great, but still far from easy) so that does not need to be addressed in that regard. For no point of having a difficult or moral life without God or the bible; so you believe that if any other religion was true there'd be no point of being moral? Or that there is no point of being moral out of genuine concern for people? As far as satanists go; the reason they have some beliefs similar to my mind is that Anton Levay was inspired by some of the same writers (principally, Nietzsche) that I am. But Anton Levay is extremelly shallow in his thinking and I will not follow a faith whose founder is considerably less intelligent than I am. Also, I don't believe in magic.

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims

Are you saying that Jesus was not human? My understanding was that he was human.

Are you saying that Jesus was not human? My understanding was that he was human.
Potentially opened a can of worms on that one.

Essentially, the typical view of Jesus as the Faultless Incarnation denies his humanity. It is our imperfections that make us who we are.

However, that's not to say that Jesus wasn't genuinely human. I certainly think he was. And to do so, I believe that he wasn't flawless. His escape from his parents in his youth, his anger towards the simple merchants in the temple and some of his more bitter teachings seem to suggest that Jesus was just as imperfect as the rest of us. Arguably, that is why nobody dares suggest anything about Jesus the child - the truth about his pre-adolescent life would show once and for all of his own failings as an individual.

Judging by your comments, you've literally blinded yourselves to see the truth. Well, I'm going to try not to bring up a dozen arguments as to why Christianity is the truth (the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, hehe :p). Obviously, people don't seem to want that. Instead, I'm going to give you a few simple explanations, and straightforward proof to show you that Christianity isn't just a book on the shelf you got from your aunt.

I was born in a Christian household, grew in a Christian family, and led a Christian life. I still am. And by heck it ain't easy, I'll tell you that much. But because I love God so much, I keep walking the 'straight-and-narrow', as they call it. But I've strayed once or twice in my time.

And that's where faith comes in.

God isn't a substance. He isn't, in the physical sense, real. According to the five senses - touch, taste, hear, smell and see - God doesn't exist.
But He is proven by the sixth sense. Faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and things not seen.

A lot of people say that 'Science does not prove God'. Pfah. Ever listen to the radio? Scientists are beginning to realise that there IS a Higher Intelligence. I can't believe that a big explosion could make the smallest possible germ have a better mechanical engine than our best cars. No, really. I saw a documentary on it.
Alright, get this. I didn't make this up.

Tell me, do you have a mind?
Yes?
Well, can you prove it to me?
The only evidence that you have a mind is the brain. Well, no. The brain is just what controls the body. Can science prove that you can think, can feel emotion?
Therefore, according to science, you do not have a mind.
But, and here's the key point, you KNOW you do. Well, how do you know?
Faith.
And if faith proves you have a mind, doesn't faith prove that God exists?
There are hundreds, thousands, possibly even millions of people in this world, and those who have passed away, who have that faith. So, according to the sixth sense, faith, God does exist.

Have you got an opposing theory? I'd love to hear it. No, really. Prove me wrong.

Oh yeah, and now for the proof. But you only have my word for this. You can only believe what I say if you want to believe. If you don't, that's fine. There are plenty of happy atheists out there.

This is going to sound very, very stupid, because so many people mock it (flying spaghetti monsters, anyone?). But as a Christian, I am honest.

I have met God. I have been in His presence. Oh, I couldn't see him, sure. But I knew I was. I felt happy. Content. Glad. Joyous. So happy I could cry. Unearthly happiness. It's like being on drugs.

And when you get the Holy Spirit? Think being on the strongest, most insanely crazily happy drug you can imagine, and times it by 5. That's what it's like to be with God. I thought I was going to die, I was laughing so hard my cheeks felt like they could explode, and crying so much my eyes hurt, and feeling so weak I couldn't even stand up.

That lasted, say, half an hour. Maybe less. You kinda lose track of time when you're so happy you're going to explode.

I'd swear that evidence on the Bible in a court of law. Take it or leave it.

(by the way, it's 11 at night so I couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing. Sorry if I'm five pages behind. ;)

We know the "mind" exists since we continually experience it; science is perfectly able to prove that you have thoughts and emotions by measuring your brain waves, levels of neurotransmitters, and the physiological effects of emotion. There is no genuine distinction between mind and brain (lets all set aside the dated Cartesian dualism). And your argument that faith in your mind leads to faith in God doesn't even remotely work; but lets say it does. Does that make every other religion in the world true? If you don't think it does your argument falls apart. If you think it does, start getting to work to make a composite faith; it can be done it just requires creativity (I advise you to use Hinduism as the base). For your religious experience; there is a reason why it felt like a drug (though I'm sure nothing like alcohol, weed, cocaine, or narcotics); it has been shown that religious experiences are connected to the levels of serotonin in the brain. Drugs that affect serotonin; such as pscilocibin mushrooms, mescaline, and LSD; cause effects (as I know from personal experience) extremely similar to what you have described, complete with the possibility of causing life changing spiritual experiences (as I also know from personal experience). So even your religious experience can be explained through materialistic terms.

Good God.

No need to worry you did your fair share. No need to envangilise to us we are to far gone. ;)

Well the thing of it was was that we got interrupted mid-conversation. Personally, I think it just got too off-track, I mean I tried not getting into semantics, but hey, people brought em up, so I had to deal with it :/. But the problem is I have no idea how that conversation was going to end because I got the last word to everyone except Saint Curie, and I don't think he/she (I dunno what gender :/) likes it when I tried to explain things with really long explanations. I don't know if everyone's too far gone until the conversation actually ends heh, besides, I did learn a few things from that conversation, different types of Atheism, I made myself more learned about "Sheol", realized that the reason I had so much trouble over the sins onto children from fathers thing was my fault for not looking at context in the Bible, if anything, I at least gained some evangelism XP, I wouldn't mind doing it again, besides, I have a 4 day weekend :D.

As a somewhat more direct issue, what's the big deal with "Conversion" anyway? Anyone at any time for any reason can choose to call themselves a Christian, and in doing so they have effectively become as much a Christian as any other. Isn't that essentially the key point in being "a convert"; that you have taken upon yourself a different name?

See my really (too) long post, please.

Taking the bible literally you can discover what was believe to be the age of the world by tracing the various lineages and families detailed in the bible back to their source (which was how the age of about 6000 years was concluded). The bible does say the Earth doesn't move (Psalms 19:5-6, among other places) and it also indicates that the Earth is flat and rests on four pillars (Job 26:11). For the prohibition on pork, that is simple. The intelligent people in the community notice that the people who eat pork become ill; so they conclude that God is behind it and doesn't want anyone to eat pork, or God is just used to convince the common people not to eat pork. These things weren't guesses so they needed no luck; and their guesses regarding the origin of life and the world were wrong. For Jesus being a fraud, I don't believe he was a con artist or anything like that; I think there is a good chance that he believe in what he preached and he definitely had a genuine concern for his fellow man. He didn't plan on being executed, but he expected it and was willing to die for his cause and beliefs. Attributes that make him remarkable, but not a demi-god.
You are correct in that we can't disprove God since it is inherently extremely difficult to prove a negative; and the nature of "God" adds to this make him impossible to disprove. But in regard to Christianity; if you do some research into archaeology, history, and philology you will see that the origin of the beliefs of the Jews and Christians can be traced and are clearly as "man made" as any other religion. I can say with supreme confidence (enough confidence to stake my soul if I have one) that Christianity is a false religion.
If the Bible is taken literally, then yes you would say that the earth is about six thousand years old, though it would be important to point out that the Hebrew word used for day (when God created the world) is yohm. Yohm can be used as either a literal day or to say 'back in the day', which would indicate an age. This could mean that the earth is billions of years old. Not all Christians agree on what it means, there are many different views. Some even believe in eveloution, it doesn't matter what view you believe so long as you believe that God's hand was (and still is) in control.
Psalm 19:5-6 says: "In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from it's heat." It does not say that the earth doesn't move. It referrs to the position of the sun in the sky as it rises and sets. This shows the understanding of David, who wrote this psalm. The sun represents God. It says that nothing is hidden from its heat just as nothing is hidden from his sight. The rising and setting of the sun show how you can depend on God, just as you know that the sun will rise.
Job 26:11 says: "The pillars of the heavens quake aghast at his rebuke." This verse doesn't even mention earth! It shows how powerful God is and how all of nature obeys him. You have to take it in context and read the surronding verses.
The laws that God made in the Old Testiment were to protect the people.
Jesus was not a fraud. He rose himself from the dead; if he had not risen then you could call him a fraud. But his followers and others saw him for forty days after he rose.
The belief in God can be traced back, yes. You probably refer to Abraham. God chose him, but if you don't believe in God then you would say that it was made up, but also there is proof for God (do some research on that too). I don't see why you would bet your soul. You soul will either be in heaven or hell for all of eternity, so what is there to loss by believing in Jesus? It is a gift, would you throw away a Christmas or birthday gift?

As for the rest of your possible conversion: why don't you start reading the Bible or praying? You won't oblige yourself in any way by doing so, but it is a good way nontheless to know what you may or may not become a part of.
If you need any words for prayer:

1) God, I need help believing. Please send Your Holy Spirit/ Please come into my hart.

When you suddenly feel that these words start meaning something for you, you're almost there. -Conversion remains, I'm sorry to say, a matter that requiers some effort from yourself as well as from others. This is only a possible guide for your part of the deal.

If you think you need some words more to pray, here's a golden oldy:

Our Father, Who art in Heaven,
Praised be thy name
May Your kingdom come
May Your will be done
on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us these days our daily bread
and forgive us our sins
as whe should forgive those who sinned against us.
Lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from Evil
For Yours is the kingdom
and the power and the glory
For ever and ever.

And there's plenty more of this stuff; but I won't post it for now.
Please contact me if you think you're up to it.

Yours sincerily,
Praying and reading the Bible are the best thing to do, yes, but when you truely believe, you don't say the Lord's Prayer. Jesus used that to show us how to pray. Here is what I was taught was the way to pray to become a Christian:
Dear Lord God,
I know that I am a sinner and have done nothing to deserve you, please forgive me. I believe that Jesus is your son and that he died for me and rose from the dead. Please come into my heart and my life. I want to follow you.
Amen
That is all that you have to do to become a Christian. Jesus will forgive us no matter what we do, just ask. This doesn't mean that it is right to sin. If you truely believe you will try to follow his commands out of your love for him.

We know the "mind" exists since we continually experience it; science is perfectly able to prove that you have thoughts and emotions by measuring your brain waves, levels of neurotransmitters, and the physiological effects of emotion. There is no genuine distinction between mind and brain (lets all set aside the dated Cartesian dualism). And your argument that faith in your mind leads to faith in God doesn't even remotely work; but lets say it does. Does that make every other religion in the world true? If you don't think it does your argument falls apart. If you think it does, start getting to work to make a composite faith; it can be done it just requires creativity (I advise you to use Hinduism as the base). For your religious experience; there is a reason why it felt like a drug (though I'm sure nothing like alcohol, weed, cocaine, or narcotics); it has been shown that religious experiences are connected to the levels of serotonin in the brain. Drugs that affect serotonin; such as pscilocibin mushrooms, mescaline, and LSD; cause effects (as I know from personal experience) extremely similar to what you have described, complete with the possibility of causing life changing spiritual experiences (as I also know from personal experience). So even your religious experience can be explained through materialistic terms.

When did I ever try and disprove other religions? Sure, faith can perfectly prove other gods. While personally I don't believe they exist, I never gave proof that they didn't. All I did was give proof (or, if not proof, than just an individual belief) that my God exists.

And as to the second statement about my 'religious experience', thanks for helping me prove a point. God made the human body. He created everything around you, everything inside you, everything. So, obviously, he created serotonin so that he can give believers a 'religious experience'. Almost everything can be materialistically explained, even though scientists haven't worked it out yet. That's because God created it all. The prophet William Branham (I doubt you'll have heard of him, but a quick google should explain it) said that God created science to prove Him. I can find a quote on that if you want proof.

Oh, and about that mind thing. My mistake. I suppose the time when that quote was said, science hadn't discovered that yet. ;)

On a side note: Reading the posts, it's good to see such a lot of faithful Christians amongst us. :)

That is all that you have to do to become a Christian.
Surely all you have to do is say "I'm a Christian"?

Yeh I heard that too. I'm sure if you google it, you'll find lots of people acknowledging his existance. That isn't really in question. What is in question is 'is he God?'

Have you found the evidence yet? Just wondered...

Surely all you have to do is say "I'm a Christian"?

*cough*Nicene Creed!*cough*

*cough*Nicene Creed!*cough*
Not entirely sure whether that's an approval or a refutation. Isn't public proclamation of the creed the same thing as saying "I am a Christian"? And isn't that statement itself enough to declare an individual a member of Christianity?

Not entirely sure whether that's an approval or a refutation. Isn't public proclamation of the creed the same thing as saying "I am a Christian"? And isn't that statement itself enough to declare an individual a member of Christianity?

Well there's always a lot of debate as to whether groups like Mormons and Jehovahs witnesses are Christian because, while they identify themselves as Christian, they don't conform to all of the ideas in the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed is effectively a list of what Christians believe so if you don't believe those ideas then some would argue that you're not really a Christian.

Of course as an Atheist I don't really care either way, just thought I'd mention it.

The Keyi:

I have to agree with you. One cannot find much by interpreting the Bible literally. I recently stumped somebody by asking how there could be "setting and dawning" (Genesis 1:5, 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, 1:23, 1:31) in between all the days of creation when the sun hadn't been created yet until the fourth day? No literal explanation is possible (even if the world had been created in six days)!

However, if God represents the sun like you say, the passage makes more sense, as well as others (the plants were created on the third day, the sun on the fourth: even the ancient Egyptians knew that plants couldn't survive without the sun).

Just a thought, sorry for the x-post.

Surely all you have to do is say "I'm a Christian"?

For some reason I do not think that if I put a turd on a stick and start preaching about little green men from Mars that created the earth while calling myself Christian people would believe I actually am...

For some reason I do not think that if I put a turd on a stick and start preaching about little green men from Mars that created the earth while calling myself Christian people would believe I actually am...
They might do. And why not? There is no unified Christian philosophy; the word is just a label designed to allow a vague generalisation. Within Christianity, people have vastly different views, and the only real unifying trait is what they call themselves. Not even the approach to scripture or the interpretation of Jesus is consistent.

In that respect, the alien crap-stick man may be just as Christian as any other.

Have you found the evidence yet? Just wondered...


There's plenty of evidence simply by looking out of the window that points to a creator. With regards to Jesus - obviously there isn't any 'contemporary' evidence as such.... Jesus died nearly 2000 years ago. But at the time there were plenty of records about him. Also, if you want to, you can check out the Old Testament in the Bible, which was written a lonnnnng time before Jesus was born, and basically describes him in quite a bit of detail.

Obviously you don't think it's true, which is a great shame; but hey, God gave us free will.

There's plenty of evidence simply by looking out of the window that points to a creator.
such as?

such as?
The rain of Doughnuts is an obvious one.

... Oh wait, you live in that universe.

Hey the best reilgon is science. It has facts to back it up. Its great knowing your fate is in your hands.:cool:

Hey the best reilgon is science. It has facts to back it up. Its great knowing your fate is in your hands.:cool:
Is science a religion? My idea of it is as a process of analysis, but I guess I can understand why people might call it thus; it certainly does have that air of Social Identity about it.

There's plenty of evidence simply by looking out of the window that points to a creator.
No, all that you see just points to that things exist--nothing more.

Surely all you have to do is say "I'm a Christian"?
No, you have to accept Jesus to be a true Christian.

No, you have to accept Jesus to be a true Christian.
And what, pray tell, does that involve?

And what, pray tell, does that involve?
It involves telling Jesus that you believe that he died for your sins, and rose again and that he is the Son of God, you admit that you have sin and don't deserve him, ask for his forgiveness and tell him that you want him to live in your heart.

It involvs telling Jesus that you believe that he died for your sins, and rose again and that he is the Son of God, you admit that you have sin and don't deserve him, ask for his forgiveness and tell him that you want him to live in your heart.
Do you need or have any reasonable evidence that a given "Christian" has done that?

Do you need or have any reasonable evidence that a given "Christian" has done that?
No, you can't find any physical evidence, and it isn't needed. Many times a Christian renews their commitment to Christ many times, though renewing it is not necessary for salvation.

Hey the best reilgon is science. It has facts to back it up. Its great knowing your fate is in your hands.:cool:

This is exactly what I'm worried about; science becoming a new God. Obviously science is not truly a religion (no supernatural beliefs, no holy texts, no organization, no moral codes, etc.), but it does have certain articles of faith that most agnostics and athiests will defend with vehemence that equals that of thiests defending their gods. Some examples: that everything can eventually be understood through observing the material world. Where does this belief come from? Granted we have explainations and increased means to predict and control reality (I can desire nothing more), but moving towards some "absolute truth?" Nothing but faith. Also, the importance so many people put on "truth." This is either remenant of religious moral code of not deceiving others (or even oneself) which of course requires an appeal to a higher power of sorts or faith that truth is somehow better fiction (and this nothing but faith since we have no prior knowledge of reality that allows us to assert that it is preferable to fantasy).

No, you can't find any physical evidence, and it isn't needed. Many times a Christian renews their commitment to Christ many times, though renewing it is not necessary for salvation.
So if you take someone at their word, then doesn't
Surely all you have to do is say "I'm a Christian"?
still hold?

So if you take someone at their word, then doesn't

still hold?
In a way, but before you can honestly say that you are a Christian you have to accept Jesus.

There's plenty of evidence simply by looking out of the window that points to a creator. With regards to Jesus - obviously there isn't any 'contemporary' evidence as such.... Jesus died nearly 2000 years ago. But at the time there were plenty of records about him. Also, if you want to, you can check out the Old Testament in the Bible, which was written a lonnnnng time before Jesus was born, and basically describes him in quite a bit of detail.

Obviously you don't think it's true, which is a great shame; but hey, God gave us free will.

I'm not sure if you understand the meaning of contemporary, contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus would be evidence that was written at the time by somebody who knew him, there is a distinct lack of this.

In other words there is no proof that Jesus (or Yeshuah to be more precise) the man ever existed which is what I said all along. You are free to believe whatever you want to my friend but you must acknowledge that even believing that Yeshuah the man existed is an act of faith.

This is exactly what I'm worried about; science becoming a new God.

Oh dear...

Obviously science is not truly a religion (no supernatural beliefs, no holy texts, no organization, no moral codes, etc.)

Nobody killing on its behalf, no pointless prohibitions, seems like quite a benevolent religion to me.

but it does have certain articles of faith that most agnostics and athiests will defend with vehemence that equals that of thiests defending their gods. Some examples: that everything can eventually be understood through observing the material world.

Strawman. It would be more accurate to say that everything in the material world can eventually be understood through observing the material world.

Where does this belief come from? Granted we have explainations and increased means to predict and control reality (I can desire nothing more), but moving towards some "absolute truth?" Nothing but faith.

The, corrected, belief is justified by empiricism. History shows us that things in the natural world which were once assumed to have supernatural explanations have so far always turned out to have natural explanations. It's only faith in the same way that we have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, our belief is justified by experience.

Also, the importance so many people put on "truth." This is either remenant of religious moral code of not deceiving others (or even oneself) which of course requires an appeal to a higher power of sorts or faith that truth is somehow better fiction (and this nothing but faith since we have no prior knowledge of reality that allows us to assert that it is preferable to fantasy).

The importance of truth requires no moral code friend, only pragmatism. Imagine a society where everyone was as likely to lie as they were to tell the truth, it is far more pragmatic to encourage veracity.

Now, apply that example to science, where new technology is being developed using science: imagine trying to build a space shuttle without being sure without being sure if the fuel expert was telling the truth when they said that the engines would require a certain ammount of fuel. Now do you see why truth is preferable even without moral justification?