NationStates Jolt Archive

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

what is this a contest? the first god to win your heart wins!

Popcorn anyone?
*relaxs on deckchair*

Popcorn anyone?
*relaxs on deckchair*


I brought beer!

*puts on beer helmet*

Popcorn anyone?
*relaxs on deckchair*

Sorry, got caught up in the traffic. Did I miss anything?

*Hands PM some ice lollies*

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

What part of "faith" don't you get?

Sorry, got caught up in the traffic. Did I miss anything?

*Hands PM some ice lollies*


all we need now is a scoreboard

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.
No! Now fuck off to hell!

Ok, convert you, eh? Perhaps we shouldn't convert you, but we could update your line of thinking.

Atheism is sooo 30BC, come up to speak with the 19th century philosophy of Secularism. It doesn't deny a god, but it says religion is a whole lot of bullshit because it puts on blinders and uses illusions and lies to make people follow out of blind faith.

It is new and cool! Plus it doesn't have militants to give it a bad name, plus its the more evolved version of Atheism!

It is new and cool! Plus it doesn't have militants to give it a bad name, plus its the more evolved version of Atheism!


Did you ever notice that the truth doesn't care if it has a bad name?

all we need now is a scoreboard

Christianity: 0
Islam: 0
Judaism: 0
Buddhism: 0
Atheism: 0
Secularism: 0
Cults: 0

Did you ever notice that the truth doesn't care if it has a bad name?
I bet it would if it's name was Gertrude.. I don't know what I'm talking about..

It's not going to happen. If you're atheist enough to want evidence for your beliefs, you cannot be converted.

What part of "faith" don't you get?
I think the part where I have to devote my life to something blindly, yeah I think thats it.

I think the part where I have to devote my life to something blindly, yeah I think thats it.

So, from that caustic comment...I'm guessing you don't actually want to be converted, but merely want attention?

So, from that caustic comment...I'm guessing you don't actually want to be converted, but merely want attention?


bingo! that is what i was getting from all this.

So, from that caustic comment...I'm guessing you don't actually want to be converted, but merely want attention?
Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims

So sorry I don't have time to really get involved in this discussion. I am religious and believe in the independent investigation of truth one of the principles of the Bahai Faith so I am afraid from a Bahai standpoint you will have to convert yourself. Go have a look, and good hunting.

http://www.bahai.com/

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims

That goes against faith. Your looking for scientific proof of something that can never be properly proven.

Hence the whole 'leap of faith'.

Just compile and run the following

#include <iostream>
#include <string>

void convert(std::string convertee)
{
std::cout << static_cast<int>(convertee);
}

int main()
{
convert("The UN abassadorship");
}

If you want to be converted to something other than an int, or want to convert someone else, just change the code accordingly.

A Christian converted me once.

He converted me to 187 pfennigs.

I was told it was the going rate...

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims

Dude the evidence is all around you - God's creation is His testimony to His own existence. You just have to realise that. Incidentally might I suggest that, rather than looking for conversion on an internet forum, where people are bound to be skeptical of your motives, why not seek out your local pastor? I'm sure s/he'd be more than willing to lend a spiritual hand.

Maybe you are looking for this:

Thirdly: Bahá'u'lláh taught, that Religion is the chief foundation of Love and Unity and the cause of Oneness. If a religion become the cause of hatred and disharmony, it would be better that it should not exist. To be without such a religion is better than to be with it.

Fourthly: Religion and Science are inter-twined with each other and cannot be separated. These are the two wings with which humanity must fly. *29* One wing is not enough. Every religion which does not concern itself with Science is mere tradition, and that is not the essential. Therefore science, education and civilization are most important necessities for the full religious life.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 28)

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims

If they did, i'm so having first dibs on the idea of cloning the sucker.

Different deities seem to accomplish different things for different people.

What kind of god are you looking for today?

Is this to give meaning to your life, to explain the orgin of the universe, to overcome some problems in your life, or do you just need a casual hobby?

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims

There isn't any. Otherwise all reputable scientists would be Christian, which isn't true.

Faith is the belief in something that is not tangible and cannot be proven by something you can sense with the senses. If you want to be converted read a bible and if you like what it says and start to believe in its messeges and lessons then you are converted. But when you start reading make sure you read with an open mind a neutral mind.

Otherwise you are just looking for attention. If you want something do it yourself if you are willing to belive then you can convert yourself if not then you won't be converted by others.

IT is futile to try and convert someone who is unwilling to belive. I too was a sort of atheist i only went to church once or twice a year [orthodox christian] for the purposes of tradition. Recently in a conversation with a friend I found my faith in god and Jesus and have been reading the Bible since.

Some pagans worship the moon, sun, and earth. They've taken DNA of both the Earth and the moon and neither were human. We haven't been able to get close enough to the sun, but anything that powerful is definately not human.

Some pagans worship the moon, sun, and earth. They've taken DNA of both the Earth and the moon and neither were human. We haven't been able to get close enough to the sun, but anything that powerful is definately not human.

Que? DNA...of the earth and the moon?

What?

Dude the evidence is all around you - God's creation is His testimony to His own existence.

He likes beetles ?

Que? DNA...of the earth and the moon?

What?

Maaaaaaaan, the DNA of the Earth <takes a toke>

Stoners, hehe

He likes beetles ?

Volkswagen ones, for they are efficiently designed, relatively environmentally friendly, cheap amd cheerful.

He likes beetles ?

Umm... presumably - what that has to do with what I said I dunno (unless it was a joke, in which case I don't get it). Explain please? :confused:

Volkswagen ones, for they are efficiently designed, relatively environmentally friendly, cheap amd cheerful.

And originally made by nazis of course.

I used to be Catholic and fundamentalist Christian (northern Baptist). Both I got tired of... too many rules and so much hate. I'd like something contemporary and more open for personal freedom and actually love for fellow man instead of hating on everyone for sins they commit.

And originally made by nazis of course.

The Pope's a nazi, and i have a little feeling Jehovah has at least fascistic tendencies...

I used to be Catholic and fundamentalist Christian (northern Baptist). Both I got tired of... too many rules and so much hate. I'd like something contemporary and more open for personal freedom and actually love for fellow man instead of hating on everyone for sins they commit.

Surely there's a church somewhere near you that could fit that description?

Umm... presumably - what that has to do with what I said I dunno (unless it was a joke, in which case I don't get it). Explain please? :confused:

When one takes a closer look at "Gods creation" one cannot help noticing that there are quite a lot of different types of beetles around. An extraordinary amount even. Excessive. Ridiculous.

So either God did not create everything, or he has a beetle fetish.

Surely there's a church somewhere near you that could fit that description?

The congregationalists weren't bad, except I fall asleep at the services.

Faith is nothing. Doubt is everything.

Atheist are cool.

It isn't going to happen the religious are perfectly aware that thier religion dosn't pass scrutiny. They ain't going to try it or they will give the often used exscuse that your heart is hardend against God.

Well it wasn't so much DNA as dirt and rocks. They've been unable to extract conventional DNA by normal means.

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims
The science is an observation of everything around you. How does a scientist determine if something is made with intelligence or random? How does an archaeologist determine if a pile of rock has been touched by intelligence or just a pile of rock? The answer is order. If something is ordered it is determined to be ordered by intelligence.

Now look at the basics of scientific observation of the universe. There is nothing that is truely random. Everything is totallly ordered. Physics is phisics; Chemistry is chemistry; Gravity is gravity; Light is Light......... It matters not where we look in the universe. Order everywhere. If the Universe were to be just appear there should be some randomness as nature tried out different types of light, gravity, etc. But there is no random. Everything everywhere is the same. Total Order.

Order is the scientific sign of intelligence.

The science is an observation of everything around you. How does a scientist determine if something is made with intelligence or random? How does an archaeologist determine if a pile of rock has been touched by intelligence or just a pile of rock? The answer is order. If something is ordered it is determined to be ordered by intelligence.

Now look at the basics of scientific observation of the universe. There is nothing that is truely random. Everything is totallly ordered. Physics is phisics; Chemistry is chemistry; Gravity is gravity; Light is Light......... It matters not where we look in the universe. Order everywhere. If the Universe were to be just appear there should be some randomness as nature tried out different types of light, gravity, etc. But there is no random. Everything everywhere is the same. Total Order.

Order is the scientific sign of intelligence.

Where do you get that from? The most intelligent people i've ever met have also been the most disordered...

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.
Jesus told me not to try to convert you. He doesn't really want you among his faithfull. While he loves most everyone else, you make him a little uncomfortable.

Maybe it would help you if you sought out to prove God did NOT exist. I know of more than one leading Christian defender of the faith that started out trying to disprove Christianity.

I am a Christian. I have no power to convert anyone. But if one sincerely questions, pray to God and say something like, "Hey, I don't know if you even exist or not, but I would sure like for you to help me know you if you're really there." I think God enjoys honest prayers like this instead of some of the B.S. some Christian pastors give like "It's a sin to doubt." I'm glad the story of Thomas is in the Bible because Thomas is alot like me and gets a bum rap because he "doubted." Come on! We all do at times.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

That makes as much sense as me swearing to god I'm an atheist.

If the Universe were to be just appear there should be some randomness

Which there is. The universe is pretty chaotic and unpredictable - ask Heisenberg if you're uncertain ;)
Anyone who thinks the universe is ordered and organised needs to ask his physics teacher for a refund.

Which there is. The universe is pretty chaotic and unpredictable - ask Heisenberg if you're uncertain ;)

I would do but he was out feeding Schrodingers' cat... ;)

My old science teacher used to say "if it smells, it's chemistry, if it moves it's biology, if it doesn't work, it's physics..."

When one takes a closer look at "Gods creation" one cannot help noticing that there are quite a lot of different types of beetles around. An extraordinary amount even. Excessive. Ridiculous.

So either God did not create everything, or he has a beetle fetish.

Well... if you look carefully at God's creation, one also cannot help noticing that there are quite a lot of different types of elements around. And humans. And trees. And flowers. And... well you see where I'm going with this I hope :p

Basically by your rationale God has an everything fetish. A life fetish.

I got an idea

Honesty.

Convert to my religion. Just think of me as God I'm not really God but what difference would it make when I tell you all the restrictions I intend to put on you as your God. As your God I place no restrictions on you.

Are you converted?

Jesus told me not to try to convert you. He doesn't really want you among his faithfull. While he loves most everyone else, you make him a little uncomfortable.
lmfao:p why do I make him uncomfortable? just out of curiousity

I got an idea

Honesty.

Convert to my religion. Just think of me as God I'm not really God but what difference would it make when I tell you all the restrictions I intend to put on you as your God. As your God I place no restrictions on you.

Are you converted.

Are there jiggling hootered priestesses in this religion?

True conversion is not in someone convincing you, also to listen to words of men will only corrupt your mind. The true religion is to believe in the power of one's self. If you can have total respect for yourself and the world around you, then you can appreciate what god has given you. To live under someone else is only demeaning yourself. This lack of respect only lowers you so that others can take advantage of you. However, I do find it would be funny seeing the exorcists coming out of the wood work to try to "convert" you. religious people are funny:cool:

I wish.

Would it help if I said with enough finincial support thier will be?

You know...much as i'd like to give you lots of money so that you could set up a religion with jiggling hootered priestesses, a lot of time and money and religious fervour could be saved by going to a lap-dancing club.

Not that i'd do either, to be honest.

Maybe it would help you if you sought out to prove God did NOT exist. I know of more than one leading Christian defender of the faith that started out trying to disprove Christianity.

I am a Christian. I have no power to convert anyone. But if one sincerely questions, pray to God and say something like, "Hey, I don't know if you even exist or not, but I would sure like for you to help me know you if you're really there." I think God enjoys honest prayers like this instead of some of the B.S. some Christian pastors give like "It's a sin to doubt." I'm glad the story of Thomas is in the Bible because Thomas is alot like me and gets a bum rap because he "doubted." Come on! We all do at times.

Holla back- I hear you all the way. I consider myself a non-denominational christian- been to countless types of services and never really thought one kind was better than the others. I had a lot of doubts some years back and kept questioning about this and that, but I can't shake the belief. It can't be a bad thing to doubt- human choice is the beauty of life- as long as you act on that doubt and seek out an answer sincerely. Every time I find myself questioning I only reaffirm my faith... I still pray the Lord's prayer out of habit, but I also have pretty candid chats with God. I think he/she/it prefers it when you are honest and open... even if it means you ask wtf?

to the thread creator- good luck on searching for yourself. i'll throw one up for ya

convert you? are you serious?

If you want to be something you are not, it's up to you to change it. I can't make you believe what you don't, I won't try to convince you of what isn't proven, it would be insane for someone to actually try to do those things.

lmfao:p why do I make him uncomfortable? just out of curiousity
It's that thing you do when you're eating potato salad outdoors with a spork. You know, that thing?

Well... if you look carefully at God's creation, one also cannot help noticing that there are quite a lot of different types of elements around. And humans. And trees. And flowers. And... well you see where I'm going with this I hope :p

Sure - but *that* makes sense. Having more variety in beetles than in plantlife does not. Arguably beetles are the dominant lifeform on this planet.

And now we are not even talking about the interesting ways they can murder, maim, slaughter and torture other beetles and creatures. Many pretty inventive - but what else could one expect from an intelligent designer ;) ?

If one must decide which of the thousands of religions is the right one using logical deduction, we must take the beetle into account. Which I fear means the ancient Egyptians had it right.
So.. go worship Atum !

All religions are the imaginary creations of men.

Just imagine a god or gods and believe in them and you are converted.

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims

I bet his blood had loads of haemoglobin, like a whale or something. thats why his brain didnt die.

Why do you keep posting Un ambassodrship? Every time you make a post, it just shows how amazingly ignorant and unintelligent you are. It was good for a laugh for a bit, but now, do us a favor and shutup.

It's that thing you do when you're eating potato salad outdoors with a spork. You know, that thing?
Ohhh, snap. yeah, that thing. He saw that?

Why do you keep posting Un ambassodrship? Every time you make a post, it just shows how amazingly ignorant and unintelligent you are. It was good for a laugh for a bit, but now, do us a favor and shutup.
I'll shut up when you shut up, but you have to go first, deal? btw, you spelled my name and Im the best thing to happen to NS general since sliced bread:D

I'll shut up when you shut up, but you have to go first, deal? btw, you spelled my name and Im the best thing to happen to NS general since sliced bread:D

Agreed. Sliced bread is disgusting and half-stale by the time you eat it, unsliced is far better.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

well, you want to belive into something, but you want scientific claims to prove it? why not becoming a budhist then? the point of it is to belive into yourself and reincarnation and not in divinities or demigods. at least, thats what i'd take if i were an atheist. i'm an agnostic ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budhism#Teachings

Christianity: 0
Islam: 0
Judaism: 0
Buddhism: 0
Atheism: 0
Secularism: 0
Cults: 0
hmmm.

Depends on what you want.
If you want spiritual enlightenment I'd find out more about Buddhism.
Now if it's god you want you're in for a tougher challange.
Problem is no current religion in mainstream pratice jives with what we now know about the universe.
The concept of a god hovering over your shoulder wheiging all your deeds fades the more one has a real comprehension of how really, really, really, big the universe is and how really insignificant we are in it.

However as a prophet to follow Christ is pretty much the best one if you pay close attention to his words and not all the retoric that has been added to them over the years. Especially Johns rantings from a turkish prison called Revelations.

The teniments of Christ himself whatever his origin are good words to live by.
The practice of judging thyself before judging others.
The practices of kindness and love to strangers not just family.
The practice of not mixing religion and money. (mostly ignored by modern christianity and islam).
Of believing that miricals come from our own beliefs and we are all the children of the same primal force.
That we are all in the same boat.
Of being a humanitarian.
Giving respect to women even when they may be a whore, for it is not for us to judge (unlike islam).

Plus xmas is a cool party with lots of gifts, goodwill, and food.

I'm not going to read all the pages, but I'm just going to try and desribe Christianity for you, Mr. America (this is Quaon speaking).

Christianity is based on the belief that all humans are inherently sinful, and that a man named Jesus Christ came down from Heaven as the son of God, and sacrificed his life for everyone. Okay, you probably know that.

Christ preached that everyone was equal, and everyone could get to Heaven if they just accepted him into his heart. He preached to love thy fellow man, and to be willing forgive others for whatever they may have done to you. He also preached that we all sin, but if you accept Christ, he purifies you and protects you from sin.

If you want more info, search Jack Chick. I don't like the guy at all (stupid fundamentlists!) but he makes the Bible the easiest to understand in the least ammount of time that I know of.

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims

Well the bloodstains on the Turin Shroud were tested and found to have cell walls so scientific data suggests that Jesus was a plant.

Well I'm not one to preach... just figure i'll give you some cool things to read:
(all NIV -- New International Version... and from Bible Gateway). Some of these are for impact, some are more for beauty... all show insights into God/Jesus... what is required for salvation, why we need to be saved, etc.

Psalm 23
A psalm of David.
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.
-----------------------------------

John 14:5-7
Jesus the Way to the Father
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

-----------------------------------

Matthew 7:12-14
12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

------------------------------------

John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

------------------------------------

Luke 23:32-43
32Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
35The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."
36The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself."
38There was a written notice above him, which read:|sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

---------------------------------

Romans 10:8-10
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

---------------------------------

John 20:24-29
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

----------------------------------

Revelation 22:7-21
Jesus Is Coming
7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

----------------------------------

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Would at least one person of faith in this chatroom leave a comment explaining exactly why they worship a higher power? I refuse to accept that the 'proof of His creation is all around us' or anything wishy-washy like that. I'll be impressed if anyone can whittle this down to anything more than "Well, there's stuff we haven't explained yet, so we worship God because it eases our minds. Also if we don't we will suffer for all eternity."
P.S: I'm an atheist to the nth degree. I don't even believe in free will, because our brains are nothing more than a concentration of chemical reactions proceeding one after another. And no, that doesn't cause me to be a melancholy and depressed person.

If you want more info, search Jack Chick. I don't like the guy at all (stupid fundamentlists!) but he makes the Bible the easiest to understand in the least ammount of time that I know of.

I can't think of a better man than Chicky to put the Ambassador off Christianity for life.:)

This (http://www.thebricktestament.com/) on the other hand is much more fun.

Don't bother trying to convert UN abassadorship, he is closed-minded.
Just do a search for his posts and you'll see that it's no use.

Let this thread die, please?

Sidenote: Don't think a religion's a bad thing, myself. Its given us a lot of good things, like morality. Just like to see some justification based upon our current understanding of reality.

Don't bother trying to convert UN abassadorship, he is closed-minded.
Just do a search for his posts and you'll see that it's no use.

Let this thread die, please?

Personally I'm having a whale of a time.:p

Anyway, I'm betting that at least two people will extoll the virtues of the Flying Spaghetti Monster before the thread finally dies. After it dies it will descend to hell for three days before being ressurected and ascending to the kingdom of Myrth.

Well the bloodstains on the Turin Shroud were tested and found to have cell walls so scientific data suggests that Jesus was a plant.
Interesting, see this the stuff Im looking for people. jesus was a plant.*goes deep into thought*

Don't bother trying to convert UN abassadorship, he is closed-minded.
Just do a search for his posts and you'll see that it's no use.

Let this thread die, please?

Why ? People can actually use it to explain why they think their religion is the best - without bashing others.
Sofar people have advocated Christianity, Buddhism and I myself made a case for the ancient Egyptian pantheon. And admit it.. the great Creator starting things by giving himself a blowjob is pretty nifty[1] ;)

[1] Yes, this is actual Egyptian mythology.

Would at least one person of faith in this chatroom leave a comment explaining exactly why they worship a higher power? I refuse to accept that the 'proof of His creation is all around us' or anything wishy-washy like that. I'll be impressed if anyone can whittle this down to anything more than "Well, there's stuff we haven't explained yet, so we worship God because it eases our minds. Also if we don't we will suffer for all eternity."
P.S: I'm an atheist to the nth degree. I don't even believe in free will, because our brains are nothing more than a concentration of chemical reactions proceeding one after another. And no, that doesn't cause me to be a melancholy and depressed person.
It's simple: I refuse to believe life is futile.

Don't bother trying to convert UN abassadorship, he is closed-minded.
Just do a search for his posts and you'll see that it's no use.

Let this thread die, please?
I am not, thank you very much. even if I am, at least Im not Canadian. :p btw, how do you pull up people's posts cause when click on the name it doesnt work.

well, you want to belive into something, but you want scientific claims to prove it? why not becoming a budhist then? the point of it is to belive into yourself and reincarnation and not in divinities or demigods. at least, thats what i'd take if i were an atheist. i'm an agnostic ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budhism#Teachings
Im going to have to check out this Buddhism you speak of, i want enlightenment

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

If you are serious about philosophical discussion, I would be willing to discuss God and Faith with you personally. I may not be able to convert you, but I may be able to answer some questions. You can email me at ggarland@wilmington.edu

For a good start on the road to religion, I recommend self flaggelation. Get yourself a sturdy whip and get to it! You'll be a believer in no time!

Why ? People can actually use it to explain why they think their religion is the best - without bashing others.
Sofar people have advocated Christianity, Buddhism and I myself made a case for the ancient Egyptian pantheon. And admit it.. the great Creator starting things by giving himself a blowjob is pretty nifty[1] ;)

[1] Yes, this is actual Egyptian mythology.
And as much as I respect the great Thot and his sibbling, it is still not worth it trying to convert this specific poster. You can try to convert everybody else, if you want, but I'm saying that this guy (or gal) will not budge.

And, just for the amusement of Randomlittleisland, I'll add

blessed be his noodly appendage!

go to church or christian events, internet threads are not neccersarily the best place to find God. Good luck

Why ? People can actually use it to explain why they think their religion is the best - without bashing others.
Sofar people have advocated Christianity, Buddhism and I myself made a case for the ancient Egyptian pantheon. And admit it.. the great Creator starting things by giving himself a blowjob is pretty nifty[1] ;)

[1] Yes, this is actual Egyptian mythology.

Yes, indeedy. The masturbation/self-impregnation of Tem (Atum), the Great He-She is indeed one of the creation myths of Ancient Egypt. One of my favourites, too! :D

It's simple: I refuse to believe life is futile.

So far I'm right: religion is a way to ease your mind. Yet to be disproved.

And as much as I respect the great Thot and his sibbling, it is still not worth it trying to convert this specific poster. You can try to convert everybody else, if you want, but I'm saying that this guy (or gal) will not budge.

And, just for the amusement of Randomlittleisland, I'll add

blessed be his noodly appendage!
Maybe its you that wont budge, I budge all the time.

A very simple solution to the problem is realizing the ease of belief, or allowing yourself to believe (try to believe) and the overwhelming sh*thole of massive trouble you will be in if, indeed you are wrong.

Ever been wrong before, bucky? Not like this, I bet. To put it in perspective, if you are wrong, and I pity you if you are, when the Devil (pick a faith for a more accurate name) gets through with you, you're gonna be able to look up your hind end and see the sky. That kind of trouble....

See, belief isn't that bad, is it?

I look at it that way all the time, and you know, I'd be stupid not to believe, or at least try.

wow this hasn't died yet?

A very simple solution to the problem is realizing the ease of belief, or allowing yourself to believe (try to believe) and the overwhelming sh*thole of massive trouble you will be in if, indeed you are wrong.

Ever been wrong before, bucky? Not like this, I bet. To put it in perspective, if you are wrong, and I pity you if you are, when the Devil (pick a faith for a more accurate name) gets through with you, you're gonna be able to look up your hind end and see the sky. That kind of trouble....

See, belief isn't that bad, is it?

I look at it that way all the time, and you know, I'd be stupid not to believe, or at least try.

And here's part 2 of my analysis: religious blackmail.

And as much as I respect the great Thot and his sibbling, it is still not worth it trying to convert this specific poster. You can try to convert everybody else, if you want, but I'm saying that this guy (or gal) will not budge.

Who cares ? There are other users on this forum. And I would personally enjoy a discussion which says "my religion is better than others because [insert positive things here]" instead of "OMG ! You will burn in hell!!! SINNER !", followed by a long list explaining why the others religion is stupid/intolerant/wrong etc. while neglecting to explain what makes their own position so much better.

Who cares ? There are other users on this forum. And I would personally enjoy a discussion which says "my religion is better than others because [insert positive things here]" instead of "OMG ! You will burn in hell!!! SINNER !", followed by a long list explaining why the others religion is stupid/intolerant/wrong etc. while neglecting to explain what makes their own position so much better.
You,re right. I retract my plea to let this thread die. Please, people: convert away.

'though, don't think that UN will convert...

Well the bloodstains on the Turin Shroud were tested and found to have cell walls so scientific data suggests that Jesus was a plant.

That's just Jesus trying to be like Vash.

A very simple solution to the problem is realizing the ease of belief, or allowing yourself to believe (try to believe) and the overwhelming sh*thole of massive trouble you will be in if, indeed you are wrong.

Ever been wrong before, bucky? Not like this, I bet. To put it in perspective, if you are wrong, and I pity you if you are, when the Devil (pick a faith for a more accurate name) gets through with you, you're gonna be able to look up your hind end and see the sky. That kind of trouble....

See, belief isn't that bad, is it?

I look at it that way all the time, and you know, I'd be stupid not to believe, or at least try.

I love the Devil. Seriously, I think Lucifer/Satan/Azazel/whatever is a swell bloke. Remember Enoch? Now THAT was a rockin' place.

why do i, a teenage american girl, worship Jesus Christ?

well... essentially because He is my creator and redeemer and savior and he deserves my praise

how do I know that he does? Because He is involved in my life. When I'm crying, He's there comforting me. When I'm scared, He is there to hold my hand and never let go. He leads me and guides me and I KNOW he loves me. And I love him too. That alone is enough... we can't love, TRULY love something that doesn't exist. Humans aren't built that way. We love and worship because He is real.

And here's part 2 of my analysis: religious blackmail.

No blackmail. All I know is, if I am wrong, when I finally close my eyes for the last time, oblivion will take me, and I will know nothing else.

If you are wrong.... *shudders*



It is kinda stupid not to, sorta like getting a $500 fine for dodging a 25 cent toll. Only in this case, it doesnt even cost 25 cents, and if you are wrong.... well, $500 is not a drop in the ocean.

why do i, a teenage american girl, worship Jesus Christ?

well... essentially because He is my creator and redeemer and savior and he deserves my praise

how do I know that he does? Because He is involved in my life. When I'm crying, He's there comforting me. When I'm scared, He is there to hold my hand and never let go. He leads me and guides me and I KNOW he loves me. And I love him too. That alone is enough... we can't love, TRULY love something that doesn't exist. Humans aren't built that way. We love and worship because He is real.

What exactly was said in this post? All I can extract is my original theory: belief in god in a manner in which many people ease their minds.

why do i, a teenage american girl, worship Jesus Christ?

well... essentially because He is my creator and redeemer and savior and he deserves my praise

how do I know that he does? Because He is involved in my life. When I'm crying, He's there comforting me. When I'm scared, He is there to hold my hand and never let go. He leads me and guides me and I KNOW he loves me. And I love him too. That alone is enough... we can't love, TRULY love something that doesn't exist. Humans aren't built that way. We love and worship because He is real.

Just keep telling yourself that and all will be fine. Really.


I have yet to find proof that supports these claims, but appearently some people know where to look and I don't. Thus far, I am still wandering through the galaxy, not knowing.

No blackmail. All I know is, if I am wrong, when I finally close my eyes for the last time, oblivion will take me, and I will know nothing else.

If you are wrong.... *shudders*

But how do you know which of the many, many religions is the right one ?

why do I believe in Jesus?

because he's got Soullllllllll

http://images.art.com/images/products/regular/10055000/10055775.jpg

But how do you know which of the many, many religions is the right one ?
That would be obvious: The Invisible Pink Unicorn

one religion based both on logic and faith. Which other religion has that?

Blessed be her holy hooves

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claimsI think what you are looking for is probably not possible. Please take a look at Gödel's Theorem (http://www.evanwiggs.com/articles/GODEL.html). It's a fascinating scientific proof that in any given system, for example our universe, it can be proven that there are things that are true that cannot be proven to be true within that system. In other words, it proves that there are things that are true that can't be proven to be true. You either take it by faith to be true, or you are wrong about it. Now, all you have to do is figure out what "it" is...

No blackmail. All I know is, if I am wrong, when I finally close my eyes for the last time, oblivion will take me, and I will know nothing else.

If you are wrong.... *shudders*



It is kinda stupid not to, sorta like getting a $500 fine for dodging a 25 cent toll. Only in this case, it doesnt even cost 25 cents, and if you are wrong.... well, $500 is not a drop in the ocean.

What on earth do you mean its not blackmail??? Do I need to define it? Here: "To coerce (into doing something) as by threats" (Webster's New World College Dictionary: Fourth Edition. Page. 151). Now TRY to tell me that being tortured for eternity isn't a threat.
I will agree, however, that the 'cost' is practically non-existent.

And as much as I respect the great Thot and his sibbling, it is still not worth it trying to convert this specific poster. You can try to convert everybody else, if you want, but I'm saying that this guy (or gal) will not budge.

And, just for the amusement of Randomlittleisland, I'll add

blessed be his noodly appendage!

*giggles quietly*

One down, one to go...

hi, it may be none of my business,but as far as what i belive i like to quote the movie dogma "it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith".

so yes, i belive there is a god. so i try to be a good person, i try follow the ten comandments, try not to be very guilty of the seven deadly sins, go to cofession once a year and just pray at home.

and by the way if there is a true heaven, and they dont allow pets, i'm just gonna tell whoever is watching the gates to point me where ever pets end up because to me it wouldn't be heaven without my dogs.

p.s. this is my first post so sorry if it's a bit awkward i don't really do the whole forum thing to often

A very simple solution to the problem is realizing the ease of belief, or allowing yourself to believe (try to believe) and the overwhelming sh*thole of massive trouble you will be in if, indeed you are wrong.

Ever been wrong before, bucky? Not like this, I bet. To put it in perspective, if you are wrong, and I pity you if you are, when the Devil (pick a faith for a more accurate name) gets through with you, you're gonna be able to look up your hind end and see the sky. That kind of trouble....

See, belief isn't that bad, is it?

I look at it that way all the time, and you know, I'd be stupid not to believe, or at least try.

*cough*Pascal's Wager!*cough*

That would be obvious: The Invisible Pink Unicorn

one religion based both on logic and faith. Which other religion has that?

Blessed be her holy hooves


Yoism - the worlds first open source religion (http://www.yoism.org/) ?
At least it tries to be something for everyone...
Edit: explanation by the wombat: http://www.yoism.org/?q=node/128

Or perhaps the church of Reality ?
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/welcome_home/

Yoism - the worlds first open source religion (http://www.yoism.org/) ?
At least it tries to be something for everyone...
Edit: explanation by the wombat: http://www.yoism.org/?q=node/128

Or perhaps the church of Reality ?
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/welcome_home/
damn... you mean to tell me I have to follow and proselitize yet another religion?

man, it's getting crowded.

Dunno if the original person who started this thread will ever get to read this .. but ...

The basic premise of Islam is that there is only one God worthy of worship (no God-in-three-parts, just one being that is God) and that He sent prophets to humanity to guide us. Most of the religions got corrupted along the way, so the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last prophet sent.

I can give more info, but let me know if that's interesting enough for you to want more info. :cool:

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

Oh God not another one of these again...

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.
if you are very serious about this, then the Forums are not the place to seek God out. Go to any church and ask questions. Same with Islam or any religion. the Forums is not really the best way to find God.

hi, it may be none of my business,but as far as what i belive i like to quote the movie dogma "it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith".

so yes, i belive there is a god. so i try to be a good person, i try follow the ten comandments, try not to be very guilty of the seven deadly sins, go to cofession once a year and just pray at home.

and by the way if there is a true heaven, and they dont allow pets, i'm just gonna tell whoever is watching the gates to point me where ever pets end up because to me it wouldn't be heaven without my dogs.

p.s. this is my first post so sorry if it's a bit awkward i don't really do the whole forum thing to often Hi Sabola, welcome to NS General. and yes, I do believe there are no pets in heaven. after all, when in heaven, your dogs are not your 'pets' but they can still be your companions. ;)

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.


Ok I haven't read any other posts, so this is just from the heart and mind... Have you woke up in the middle of the night, feeling lonely, or just empy inside? Well obviously at some point you have had that feeling of emptiness or else you would have not been asking to convert. Many people give the point that you can't prove God, or prove anything about Christianity. Well to certain point you can. Sure you cannot use objective science to prove, but with your heart you can. I know that sounds cheesy. But let me tell you what, since I accepted the Lord Jesus as my saviour, I have been on one wild journey. I have seen things that are incomprehensible to the mind, i have felt an annointing over my body and soul like nothing else. Every day when i wake up, I fall to me knees and thank God for giving me something to live for. I know if i weren't a christian, by this point i would have prolly been found dead sometime...Now becoming a christian isn't always easy....But you have someone to ALWAYS be there for you...And that is the greatest thought to have.


Thomas

What on earth do you mean its not blackmail??? Do I need to define it? Here: "To coerce (into doing something) as by threats" (Webster's New World College Dictionary: Fourth Edition. Page. 151). Now TRY to tell me that being tortured for eternity isn't a threat.
I will agree, however, that the 'cost' is practically non-existent.

Exactly. It is not blackmail, as it costs you nothing, and I gain nothing. It is sort of like walking past you and noticing, and then mentioning that you are standing in an ant pile. Am I coercing you to move? No, I am attempting to (as a fellow human) try and keep you from being bit.

Not blackmail

I wonder. Being someone who refuses to call himself a Christian, it would be interesting to see if I could help you find a Christian-esque mindset. That'd be a neat challenge.

Up for it? Or is this exclusively the domain of stereotypical Christian Religion here?

hi, it may be none of my business,but as far as what i belive i like to quote the movie dogma "it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith".

so yes, i belive there is a god. so i try to be a good person, i try follow the ten comandments, try not to be very guilty of the seven deadly sins, go to cofession once a year and just pray at home.

and by the way if there is a true heaven, and they dont allow pets, i'm just gonna tell whoever is watching the gates to point me where ever pets end up because to me it wouldn't be heaven without my dogs.

p.s. this is my first post so sorry if it's a bit awkward i don't really do the whole forum thing to often

Not to be...well...condescending BUT.... Just believing in God, or following the commandments or confession, well none of that is enough. The only way into heaven is through Beleiving in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Risen Christ. Now don't be fooled by believe in this sentence..This beleive is to mean that you follow faithful, are in a constant fellowship, and just give all to Him. Like i said those other things don't work.

The only way into heaven is through Beleiving in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Risen Christ. Now don't be fooled by believe in this sentence..This beleive is to mean that you follow faithful, are in a constant fellowship, and just give all to Him.
You're being very vague about what that means. To believe in Jesus seems like a vastly different concept to believing in God within the Christian Church. Surely, when one engages fully in God, does his work and bears him in mind constantly, the same is true of one's relationship with Jesus by proxy?

Which there is. The universe is pretty chaotic and unpredictable - ask Heisenberg if you're uncertain ;)
Anyone who thinks the universe is ordered and organised needs to ask his physics teacher for a refund.
The more science looks at the universe the more organization is seen. The reason things look chaotic and unpredictable is because we are limited in the number of inputs we can control for. If we could put in every controlling factor we could predict where every drop of rain would fall. The reason we can't do that is because the inputs are so many. This gets us back to the classic statement that a butterfly in Japan, flying from flower to flower, is putting out vortex that will eventually effect the drop of rain water in the American mid-west. We just can't account for every butterfly. If we could account for all of those little things everything in the universe would be totally predictable because physics never changes.

Now before you try to make the arguement. Matter seems to operate differently at the subatomic level than at the observable level. But at each level it is 100% predictable.

The very nature of science experiments is that they can be repeated. If the universe were random, they could not be repeated. What if the universe were random? Water would boil at a different temp (at the same pressure) every time. Planets wouldn't orbit predictably because gravity would operate differently from time to time. Light would be different as it left every star. Matter would change from solid to liquid to gas without cause. These don't happen because the universe is 100% organized.

I'm a Christian pastor. I do not need to defend my faith. I believe because I am one who doubts.

This could obviously be a long discussion. There are many alternative beliefs out there. But to start with the argument of God or no God - I believe it takes less faith to believe in an eternal living God who started it all than it does to believe that we all came from a Rock. Everyone has faith in something. My faith system, however, allows for the intervention of the supernatural to explain the things people who question sit back and wonder about. I don't expect this post to change your world, but think about it.

You're being very vague about what that means. To believe in Jesus seems like a vastly different concept to believing in God within the Christian Church. Surely, when one engages fully in God, does his work and bears him in mind constantly, the same is true of one's relationship with Jesus by proxy?


Yes, but through the old convenant fellowship with God was not enough, you had to follow ALL of the rules or give up sacrifice..jesus paid the last sacrifice and consequently since he is the bridge from us to God, we have a personal relationship with him. And since he is of God, we to have a personal relationship with God as well.

Yes, but through the old convenant fellowship with God was not enough, you had to follow ALL of the rules or give up sacrifice..jesus paid the last sacrifice and consequently since he is the bridge from us to God, we have a personal relationship with him. And since he is of God, we to have a personal relationship with God as well.
But we have a personal relationship with God anyway. God doesn't refuse to relate with me just because I don't believe that Jesus died in appeasement of the Divine Justice System. And why should he? When God is Love, he cares not how we come by him.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one.
Are you serious? Religion is not meant to be argued for rationally. It's based on faith. It's an emotional connection. For Christians, they just feel that God is there. It doesn't need to be proven. The feeling is strong enough to let them know that God is real.

Ok, convert you, eh? Perhaps we shouldn't convert you, but we could update your line of thinking.

Atheism is sooo 30BC, come up to speak with the 19th century philosophy of Secularism. It doesn't deny a god, but it says religion is a whole lot of bullshit because it puts on blinders and uses illusions and lies to make people follow out of blind faith.

It is new and cool! Plus it doesn't have militants to give it a bad name, plus its the more evolved version of Atheism!
No. Atheism is a theological unbelief; secularism is a political concept.

Actually thats not true at all, I need good reasons not, just "have faith", Im looking stuff for like "they found a cup with Jesus' DNA on it, and it wasnt human" You know stuff like that, science to back up religious claims
Good luck with that. :rolleyes:

I'm a Christian pastor. I do not need to defend my faith. I believe because I am one who doubts.

This could obviously be a long discussion. There are many alternative beliefs out there. But to start with the argument of God or no God - I believe it takes less faith to believe in an eternal living God who started it all than it does to believe that we all came from a Rock. Everyone has faith in something. My faith system, however, allows for the intervention of the supernatural to explain the things people who question sit back and wonder about. I don't expect this post to change your world, but think about it.

We didn't 'all come from a rock' and spouting rubish like that will only advertise your ignorance. Educate yourself (http://www.talkorigins.org/).

Good luck with that. :rolleyes:

We've already been over that point and we have scientific proof that Jesus was a plant.

We've already been over that point and we have scientific proof that Jesus was a plant.
What kind of plant?

Hmm... Maybe that's why I'm a strict carnivore? Something on a subconscious level?

Mmmm... Meat... :fluffle:

I think what you are looking for is probably not possible. Please take a look at Gödel's Theorem (http://www.evanwiggs.com/articles/GODEL.html). It's a fascinating scientific proof that in any given system, for example our universe, it can be proven that there are things that are true that cannot be proven to be true within that system. In other words, it proves that there are things that are true that can't be proven to be true. You either take it by faith to be true, or you are wrong about it. Now, all you have to do is figure out what "it" is...
The thing is NOTHING can be proved. Everything is based on assumptions. Then we build on those assumptions. From time to time science finds out that their basic assumptions are wrong. Then they have to start over and rebuild on the new assumptions.

Religion is the same way. Each religion is built on basic assumptions. From time to time those assumptions have been proven wrong. Then new assumptions are made and new beliefs are built. Different groups have over time made different assumptions and have developed different religions based on different assumptions.

The amazing thing is nearly every religion has the same assumptions and beliefs at their base. The assumptions made from those basics are different, but the basics are the same.


Those basics seem to be intercultural. My recommendation is to read and think about all of the beliefs of the world and look for the common thread. When you find the common thread you will be getting closer to the cultural truth of religion.

Wait a minute, are you looking for scientific "we can see it whenever we want" type of proof, or a moral argument of sorts? Because like many people have already pointed out, if your just looking for purely scientific "we can see it because science sayz so" type stuff, I dunno what to tell ya about, well, anything much less proving religion, but if you'll accept a moral/logic type of argument, (Where, if need be, i'll research things myself if you must bring up something scientific about it) i'll be more than happy to try as best I can to give the best evangelistic outpouring I can :). In fact, one might even say i'd be inspired to do it so to speak.... (Mark 16:15)

Instead of trying to convert you this way or that, I have questions.

Why do you feel the need to "have a God?" Is something bothering you that only a miracle could solve? Is there something just weird gap in your life that you need filled?

Perhaps instead of a God, you need a moral code. (or lifestyle change)

Are you serious? Religion is not meant to be argued for rationally. It's based on faith. It's an emotional connection. For Christians, they just feel that God is there. It doesn't need to be proven. The feeling is strong enough to let them know that God is real.
I disagree. I think it can be very rational. It took me a long time because everyone tried to sell me the "faith" thing.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

God created the world
and walked away.

Congradulations. You're now a diest.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

The truth is no one can convert you, you make your own decisions. You either choose to accept something or you dont. You follow your own path. Even being an atheist you have a belief. I'm a christian and I believe in evolution. I dont think that evolution and christianity are not compatible. I just have a really high opinon of God. That he was smart enough to create life through evolution. I dont want to get into an argument that evolution and God are not compatible, if you feel that way thats fine. I also dont want to shove my beliefs onto anyone. Make your own decision.

"They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, 'look at my hands and feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke chapter 24 verse 37-40.

There can be no proof, and I'm fine with that. Sure, it would be easier if there was concrete proof, but then you wouldn't have faith.

Faith is not a bad thing, and it is not being just ignorant. You probaly have a lot of faith already. A person cannot live without having faith and trust in something. You probaly have faith in the internet, someone you love, your parents, your friends,.

Dunno if the original person who started this thread will ever get to read this .. but ...

The basic premise of Islam is that there is only one God worthy of worship (no God-in-three-parts, just one being that is God) and that He sent prophets to humanity to guide us. Most of the religions got corrupted along the way, so the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last prophet sent.

I can give more info, but let me know if that's interesting enough for you to want more info. :cool:
Sure, I would like to hear what you have to say.

Well, you want to become a Christian. That's a start. Now, I can understand your reluctance, given Christianities poor track record with keeping peaceful, but I'll try my best to convince you we're a good choice.

A few notes before I begin... firstly, I do not by any means represent Christianity as a whole. I have some fairly strange beliefs, but I won't get to most of them. Second, I'm not going to try to prove the existance of God or Jesus. It's possible to prove God exists, or so I'm willing to bet, but that's something I'd leave to smarter people than myself. Third, I often refer to God as he, but I believe God is genderless. He comes from habit.

Firstly in Christianity... at the core... when you wipe aside Cathedrals and Popes and holy wars. When you sweep away the guilt-trips and the politics. At it's very core, it's about being good to others. Being a good person. Not being a prick. A very good start, but Jesus took it further, with "turn the other cheek". Many people have lost sight of the origional message of Christianity, which was basically "Hey, let's try being nice for a change.".

A lot of people seem to think that science denies Christian faith, but I prefer to supplement my faith with it. Most people say either, God made this in his infinite wisdom, or This was created by natural events. I say, here is something made by God, and this is how he did it. I walk through my hometown, and look out into grand mountains, and a deep river. I see God watching back through his own design.

Many people ask, if there is a god, why does he allow wars and horrible things to happen? I have two arguments for this. Firstly, through our warring and horrors, we learn. We find cures to diseases, stop atrocities on our own, become stronger. Secondly, God owes us nothing. He made everything, so if anything, you owe him, but you don't stop by his house to offer to plumb his toilet, do you?

Many people refer to Christians as "fanatics". These "fanatics", who stand outside abortion clinics calling the poor girls who go there whores, who try to suppress our freedom of speech, who try to ruin life for those of us interestted in living to the fullest... I don't like these people. I don't go to church because of them. Well, them and the politics. But by avoiding them, I realised something: God doesn't need lofty walls and fancy windows to hear you. Jesus doesn't need some collection plate, or bake sales to forgive you of your sins. The angels do not care if you sit in something made by man, concencrated by none, to hear a pseudo-holy-man spout thinly disguised politics. Your home is as good a chapel as any, but your heart is even better.

To some up: Christianity is the religion of trying to be nice.

If my statements have failed to persuade you, I would reccomend Judeism or Buddhism as runners-up...

EDIT: I believe I'll follow Crowngaurd's example, below and offer contact information. Send a Telegram to Olustar for more information (read: ramblings).

There is, of course, many forms of belief in the divine. I myself for example consider myself to be a 'Unitarian Christian'. This of course is not something that is precisely accepted among many Christian denominations, as it is a 'heresy' dating back many years and now found in the Unitarian (or Unitarian-Universalist) faiths.

God, to me, represents the divine spark of creation. The rules of the universe are ordered by a divine entity who has laid out intellect for us to be able to comprehend it all. In addition, we find ourselves with a part of our emotions and morals locked within, deep inside and seeking expression. God then, to me, represents the potential for good in this world. That, despite the horrendous realities of natural existence, we find goodness and righteousness in one another. This, despite the actions of those who do not feel as touched by this benevolent force, allows us ultimately to carry on. That we as a species seek some idealistic vision of peace on earth and goodwill towards all.

Now, as to what Unitarian Christianity IS...I have heard it as a heresy betwixt orthodox Christianity and Islam. It is a religion that believes in one singular God and distrusts the Trinity. The Trinity, in our eyes, represents an attempt to place a pagan image (of the Three) absorbed into a mainstream religion. There is no God of aspects, just the Divine. Period.

Jesus then, represents the Son of God, but only in the sense we are all children of God. He represents the human being, the prophet, whose works are recorded in order to make us understand our lives better. To LIVE better with one another, and to follow as an EXAMPLE, not an object to be worshiped. There is a saying that "We follow the religion OF Jesus, not the religion ABOUT Jesus". We are all called to follow this example, and find in the Holy Bible stories which help guide our actions. The Holy Bible is not "holy" because we believe it is true, but because it is a GUIDEBOOK for how one might wish to know and love the benevolence of creation. Of existing.

To rip off part of www.americanunitarian.org, the four general tenets are:


1) the belief that human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved, but exactly as God created it and intended it to be from the beginning, capable of both good and evil;

2) the conviction that no religion has a monopoly on holy spirit or theological truth;

3) the belief that the Bible, while inspired of God, is written by humans and therefore subject to human error;

4) the rejection of traditional doctrines that malign God’s character or veil the true nature and mission of Jesus, such as the doctrines of predestination, eternal damnation, the Trinity, and the vicarious sacrifice or satisfaction theory of the Atonement.


Ultimately, we feel it is a sane religion, one which makes a great deal of sense in the proper context. Of course, I would be happy to share more but I doubt people would desire to read pages of material. Ultimately, it is a liberal religion in the sense that we do not enforce creed or doctrine, but spiritual seeking. For me at least, it has helped more than I can ever express on these pages.

Now, I guess I will take another 'leap of faith', as it were. If you wish to contact me about such things, or just talk about religion in general (I was raised Catholic, became an atheist, and eventually found God again), I would be delighted. I would be a poor person to just place text here without offering additional assistance.

My contact information:

MSN Instant Messenger: scloss@hotmail.com
AOL Instant Messenger: TheSporkMessiah

My email is also my MSN IM. Feel free to contact me and...good luck. Seriously, in whatever you decide. Remember that no matter what religion or lack thereof you follow, morality and virtue do not change. Being a good person is always what matters.


"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." -GK Chesterton

There´s only one way to go ambassador:

Nihilism:

you can still believe in nothing, and yet find solace in it...

:p

I brought beer!

*puts on beer helmet*

BEER is proof that GOD loves us and wants us to be happy.

--Ben Franklin

The truth is no one can convert you, you make your own decisions. You either choose to accept something or you dont. You follow your own path. Even being an atheist you have a belief. I'm a christian and I believe in evolution. I dont think that evolution and christianity are not compatible. I just have a really high opinon of God. That he was smart enough to create life through evolution. I dont want to get into an argument that evolution and God are not compatible, if you feel that way thats fine. I also dont want to shove my beliefs onto anyone. Make your own decision.

"They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, 'look at my hands and feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke chapter 24 verse 37-40.
You are correct. Heck, I can't even prove that anything other than my thoughts exist: me or any of you may be some insane person who is imagining this entire world. Heck, you might be the only real thing in the universe, and just percieve things differently.

That's why you've gotta have faith.

Are you really serious? I'm not asking sarcastically, I'm serious. If you still want this, UN Ambassador, then I would be glad to teach you to the best of my abilities, which probably isn't much, but I'll see what I can do.

If you have a country by which I can telegram you, let me know. Telegram me if you're still searching.

Heck, I can't even prove that anything other than my thoughts exist: me or any of you may be some insane person who is imagining this entire world. Heck, you might be the only real thing in the universe, and just percieve things differently.

That's why you've gotta have faith.

I agree. However, faith need not be faith in a higher being. I have faith in causality - everything is perfectly predictable on the simplest level. As such, given infinite data, everything is perfectly predictable on the highest level. If everything is perfectly predictable, then there is no choice, there is only the natural progression of events. Fate. I don't even go so far as to suggest that we exist on the highest level. We can't analyze that which we can't comprehend. So why should we worship it? Besides, it too will be governed by causality, and so, while it may have the power to shape our level of reality, it does so by the same laws by which we shape the reality that we observe. And that is my version of faith.

Somebody kill this thread. It has had it's run in the sun, and it is time for it to go to pasture.

Somebody kill this thread. It has had it's run in the sun, and it is time for it to go to pasture.

I want it to stay here.

It is though all a load of bollocks(can I say that here?)really. No Atheist wants to be converted all they really want to do is attempt to make people look stupid, and they do for the most part.

What gets me though Atheists seem more caught up with God than any beliver I know, they are always talking about God.

If you don't belive then fine, go ahead and stop having a go at those that do. Come on are you really saying that there is nothing that you belive without proof? Really, really. are you sure now, go on have a big ol think about it before you answer.

The other thing about Ateism is that 98% of them argue against God using arguments agianst the Christian concept of God. When faced with a perception of God that is not Christian then your arguments are invalid.

It is though all a load of bollocks(can I say that here?)really. No Atheist wants to be converted all they really want to do is attempt to make people look stupid, and they do for the most part.

What gets me though Atheists seem more caught up with God than any beliver I know, they are always talking about God.

If you don't belive then fine, go ahead and stop having a go at those that do. Come on are you really saying that there is nothing that you belive without proof? Really, really. are you sure now, go on have a big ol think about it before you answer.

The other thing about Ateism is that 98% of them argue against God using arguments agianst the Christian concept of God. When faced with a perception of God that is not Christian then your arguments are invalid.
point one place in this very thread where Atheists did any such thing.

If you are an atheist, can I ask you something?

What is it about your beliefs that makes you passionate? What is it about your beliefs that you love? And what is it about them that makes you know that you're right?

Please send all answers to me on the back of a postcard :P

Using theoretical mathematics, it is possible to undisputably proove the existence of God, but I save that argument for the most narrow-minded of people who can't accept that faith is all the proof I will ever need. I used to go around asking people questions like "Christians are stupid, there's no proof that God exists etc. etc." and now I am one.

C. S. Lewis was one of the most vehemant atheists of his time. One day, he decided to lock himself in his attic with only a paper and a pen (and food and a toilet, obviously) and tried to disprove God both logicaly and theologicaly. He emerged three weeks later a committed Christian.

If you are an atheist, can I ask you something?

What is it about your beliefs that makes you passionate? What is it about your beliefs that you love? And what is it about them that makes you know that you're right?

Please send all answers to me on the back of a postcard :P

And you're telling me that a person of religious persuasion couldn't do the same? Why don't you list all of what you said about your own beliefs. And make it long enough to fill MORE than a postcard without being verbose or repeating yourself.

What I love about atheism is that it doesn't make me inherently subordinate to some being whose existence I cannot even be certain of. I am master of my own section of reality because there are NO masters of reality. It is mututally and equally shaped and shared by every sample of matter and energy within it. I can find meaning in life because there is no master plan, only the natural events of the universe, of which I am a part, not subjects to the whims of some being whose decisions are all-encompassing. In short, reality is what I make of it.

point one place in this very thread where Atheists did any such thing.

Sorry what do you want me to point at?

C. S. Lewis was one of the most vehemant atheists of his time. One day, he decided to lock himself in his attic with only a paper and a pen (and food and a toilet, obviously) and tried to disprove God both logicaly and theologicaly. He emerged three weeks later a committed Christian.

I'm sorry, but I'm forced to say that that is the worst argument I've ever heard. What you're suggesting is that because we cannot DISprove the existence of god, he must exist. There is no logic in that. I can't disprove the existence of a magical Pringles can that can't be detected by any of my senses. Does that mean that it exists and that it is worthy of my worship and devotion?

I'm sorry, but I'm forced to say that that is the worst argument I've ever heard. What you're suggesting is that because we cannot DISprove the existence of god, he must exist. There is no logic in that. I can't disprove the existence of a magical Pringles can that can't be detected by any of my senses. Does that mean that it exists and that it is worthy of my worship and devotion?

I should have explained it better. It's not that he couldn't disprove God, so he thought "The logical conclusion is that he must exist". That would have not made him a Christian, but just believed that He existed. To be a Christian, you accept forgiveness. No, instead, he just spent so long thinking about Cristianity and God that he converted himself, as it were. He found no evidence that God existed, or any evidence to the contrary.

PS. no need to apologise, you're entitled to your opinion, weather I disagree or not. I never apologise. I'm sorry, that's just the way I am. (HJ Simpson Rools!)

And you're telling me that a person of religious persuasion couldn't do the same? Why don't you list all of what you said about your own beliefs. And make it long enough to fill MORE than a postcard without being verbose or repeating yourself.

What I love about atheism is that it doesn't make me inherently subordinate to some being whose existence I cannot even be certain of. I am master of my own section of reality because there are NO masters of reality. It is mututally and equally shaped and shared by every sample of matter and energy within it. I can find meaning in life because there is no master plan, only the natural events of the universe, of which I am a part, not subjects to the whims of some being whose decisions are all-encompassing. In short, reality is what I make of it.


And that makes you happy? To be as important as that bit of dust down the back of the bed? Sorry my friend, I respect your views, but I have to say I am worth more than that.

Hey Ambassador,

I'd recommend checking out the book "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Supposedly, he was an atheist when he started writing the book and was trying to disprove Christianity but became a Christian through his research. Might be a good place to start, anyway.

Aha! Someone else! :p

I think it's farily easy to say, as a scientist (biologist, chemist and partial Quantum Physicist) That NO god can ever exist due to the fundamental principals of the Universe. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. To be omnipotent, as a god, then you would require infinite energy. The Universe is not infinite. Ergo, There is no omnipotent being, there is no god.
There could be, however, a being of limited energy but they can not give the "everlasting life" professed in so many religious texts. The Fact is that religion was created by rulers of a country to maintain the status quo, keep people in fear and awe of their leadership etc. and it has since become a very profitable business. My point still stands. Science is against the "all knowing, all powerful god"

I think it's farily easy to say, as a scientist (biologist, chemist and partial Quantum Physicist) That NO god can ever exist due to the fundamental principals of the Universe. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. To be omnipotent, as a god, then you would require infinite energy. The Universe is not infinite. Ergo, There is no omnipotent being, there is no god.
There could be, however, a being of limited energy but they can not give the "everlasting life" professed in so many religious texts. The Fact is that religion was created by rulers of a country to maintain the status quo, keep people in fear and awe of their leadership etc. and it has since become a very profitable business. My point still stands. Science is against the "all knowing, all powerful god"


Wow. That's a pretty big claim mate. I respect you obviously know a lot about the world and everything being a scientist. So please explain to me where it came from. And what was there before it. Oh and when you've done that, please tell me why I go to church on Sundays instead of that 'controlling' joke you say.

Christianity: 0
Judaism: 1000000000000000000000 :upyours: WE ALL KNOW JUDAISM IS THE BEST WE HAVE THE SAME GOD AS CHRISTIANS WE ARE JUST PLAIN BETTER :upyours:
Buddhism: 0
Atheism: 0
Secularism: 0
Cults: 0

You know, God is just around the corner fuguratively speaking you know there are churches to help you that you could go to

And that makes you happy? To be as important as that bit of dust down the back of the bed? Sorry my friend, I respect your views, but I have to say I am worth more than that.

Actually yes, it does, and that's probably why I believe it. It supplies reality with meaning for me. I prefer it to the notion of being subject to some omnipotent consciousness. That's really all the religious argument is - deciding what extracts the most meaning out of life for you.

BTW, I'd like for you to reciprocate my explanation, if you've got the time.

:rolleyes: I wasn't exactly there at the time, so I cannot be sure. And as a scientist, I have to be open minded about the whole thing and be open to suggestions that I'm wrong. I'll be the first to admit a mistake, but I place my faith in science. Why you go to church is just part of your religion. A mass gathering to worship your god. Fair enough. I respect most religious beliefs. And I'm aware that my claim is pretty big, but I have to stress that I'm not saying that there's nothing after Death... We dont know that yet. But the actual"god" thing probably isnt true. It was also a fairly big claim when acience said that the Earth revolved around the Sun. This could be another one of those times when science proves religion to be way off again, only this could destroy some of the more devout societites.

Wow. That's a pretty big claim mate. I respect you obviously know a lot about the world and everything being a scientist. So please explain to me where it came from. And what was there before it. Oh and when you've done that, please tell me why I go to church on Sundays instead of that 'controlling' joke you say.

Science doesn't claim to have all the answers yet, maybe it never will, but just saying "God made it all" is as weak an explanation as "We haven't figured it out yet". As far as the questions of origins go, God is an excuse.

The science is an observation of everything around you. How does a scientist determine if something is made with intelligence or random? How does an archaeologist determine if a pile of rock has been touched by intelligence or just a pile of rock? The answer is order. If something is ordered it is determined to be ordered by intelligence.

Now look at the basics of scientific observation of the universe. There is nothing that is truely random. Everything is totallly ordered. Physics is phisics; Chemistry is chemistry; Gravity is gravity; Light is Light......... It matters not where we look in the universe. Order everywhere. If the Universe were to be just appear there should be some randomness as nature tried out different types of light, gravity, etc. But there is no random. Everything everywhere is the same. Total Order.

Order is the scientific sign of intelligence.

You seem to be assuming that all sciences are separate, but they are not, they are all very similar and only grouped and ordered by human intelligence. All matter is the same as energy, so light is not really different from rock, it just appears that way. At least i think this is true I'm unsure of the exact details. Things only appear to be organised because they are so big, but if we could see the energy that everything was made of I'm sure it would seem very disorganised.

Humans have a tendency to try and link things together and see everything as organised, when some people say something is organised others will view it as random. Order is therefore just a concept which people impose upon their lives to give them some meaning.

I agree with the 'everything is the same' part of your post though, but then order and randomness are the same, and we will never tell whether a pile of rock has been changed by chance or intelligence. Agnosticism is the only way to go as in human nature there is always some doubt, but we have to have faith in something as we will never know what the truth is otherwise: even our senses and memories can be deceptive.

(PS. Sometimes I wish I wasn't so philosophical. Sorry for anyone who can't understand this post.)

I think it's farily easy to say, as a scientist (biologist, chemist and partial Quantum Physicist) That NO god can ever exist due to the fundamental principals of the Universe. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. To be omnipotent, as a god, then you would require infinite energy. The Universe is not infinite. Ergo, There is no omnipotent being, there is no god.
There could be, however, a being of limited energy but they can not give the "everlasting life" professed in so many religious texts. The Fact is that religion was created by rulers of a country to maintain the status quo, keep people in fear and awe of their leadership etc. and it has since become a very profitable business. My point still stands. Science is against the "all knowing, all powerful god"

Who says gods are omnipotent or even omniscient?

Who says gods are omnipotent or even omniscient?
God, because it is written in the Bible and therefore is unquestionably true.

Edit: I'm being sarcastic, by the way.

Christianity: 0
Judaism: 1000000000000000000000 :upyours: WE ALL KNOW JUDAISM IS THE BEST WE HAVE THE SAME GOD AS CHRISTIANS WE ARE JUST PLAIN BETTER :upyours:
Buddhism: 0
Atheism: 0
Secularism: 0
Cults: 0

Wow, thats a big f***ing number why didnt you make a cool number like elevenity-billion or something more plausable I have nothing against judaism but when you use slander against other religions you just make yourself and your religion look really bad

I think it's farily easy to say, as a scientist (biologist, chemist and partial Quantum Physicist) That NO god can ever exist due to the fundamental principals of the Universe. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. To be omnipotent, as a god, then you would require infinite energy. The Universe is not infinite. Ergo, There is no omnipotent being, there is no god.
There could be, however, a being of limited energy but they can not give the "everlasting life" professed in so many religious texts. The Fact is that religion was created by rulers of a country to maintain the status quo, keep people in fear and awe of their leadership etc. and it has since become a very profitable business. My point still stands. Science is against the "all knowing, all powerful god"



Heh I love this line of reasoning.

Okay so as a scientist, you can tell me that we do know the fundamental principals of the universe? What what do my eyes decive me? religon was created by rulers of countries to maintain the status quo and keep people in fear an awe?

Okay first as scientist then you cannot belive this unless you have proof, so show me.
Secondly, are you then saying that religion was not created by our ancient cavemen type ancesters to make sense of the world around them, and so in a very real sense is the father of science?

All major religions believe that their god is infallible, all knowing and all powerful. Personally i believe that it is theoretically possible for a being of "energy" to exist. Not like some of the things out of Star Trek, but something similar in principal. But, its not a god if it's not omnipotent, why worship it otherwise. If it isn't omnipotent, then it's just another being in the galaxy having a laugh at us. It cannot create an "everlasting life" that's impossible. (again, if there's a way to prove me wrong scientifically, then I'll admit I was incorrect.)

Sorry what do you want me to point at?

The bolded part of your rant:
It is though all a load of bollocks(can I say that here?)really. No Atheist wants to be converted all they really want to do is attempt to make people look stupid, and they do for the most part.

What gets me though Atheists seem more caught up with God than any beliver I know, they are always talking about God.

If you don't belive then fine, go ahead and stop having a go at those that do. Come on are you really saying that there is nothing that you belive without proof? Really, really. are you sure now, go on have a big ol think about it before you answer.

as for this,
The other thing about Ateism is that 98% of them argue against God using arguments agianst the Christian concept of God. When faced with a perception of God that is not Christian then your arguments are invalid.
that is a load of bollocks. An atheist believe there is no god, not just "no christian god" as such, his arguments tend to attack any higer being. So non-christian arguments usually fall flat too. It's just that christian arguments are what atheists usually hear so they can attack these easilly and by rote.

They started off as the same thing but diverged as it became apparent that "magic" does not exist. And there is proof, anthropology, historical sociology. Read a goddam book!

Science doesn't claim to have all the answers yet, maybe it never will, but just saying "God made it all" is as weak an explanation as "We haven't figured it out yet". As far as the questions of origins go, God is an excuse.


Ok man here's the answer:

You were made in a laboratory by a mad scientist who has the whole universe in a cardboard box and gets it out at weekends.

I'm sorry but I don't understand how you can say that the existance of a god or any divine being is impossible when you don't actually know any other explanation. Have you ever thought that maybe when you look at the physics of the whole universe, you actually know very very very little?

I think it's farily easy to say, as a scientist (biologist, chemist and partial Quantum Physicist) That NO god can ever exist due to the fundamental principals of the Universe. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. To be omnipotent, as a god, then you would require infinite energy. The Universe is not infinite. Ergo, There is no omnipotent being, there is no god.
There could be, however, a being of limited energy but they can not give the "everlasting life" professed in so many religious texts. The Fact is that religion was created by rulers of a country to maintain the status quo, keep people in fear and awe of their leadership etc. and it has since become a very profitable business. My point still stands. Science is against the "all knowing, all powerful god"

But what if God had control of all of the energy and matter that does exist, then he would have infinite power as he could control everything. From that angle he could exist I suppose.

Some people say that an all-powerful God can't exist because we have free will but what if we don't?

Our actions are the result of our mental reasoning which is based on our experiences, which in turn is based on our actions, natural disasters and other peoples actions which were created as the consequences of actions of others etc. If we could trace the law of cause and effect back far enough who is to say that God couldn't have put the plan in motion.

I don't like to believe this as it makes me feel like a pawn with no free will but hey, it could be true.

Thats bollox. Atoms aren't that small. We don't know enough to explain EVERYTHING. But we can tell you what cant happen and that's GOD! We know enough of the nature of the universe to know what it likes and that is for everything to be broken down into it's most stable form. What has that to do with the religion thing? Probably nothing. I'm just saying it. I t has to be said.

But what if God had control of all of the energy and matter that does exist, then he would have infinite power as he could control everything. From that angle he could exist I suppose.

Some people say that an all-powerful God can't exist because we have free will but what if we don't?

Our actions are the result of our mental reasoning which is based on our experiences, which in turn is based on our actions, natural disasters and other peoples actions which were created as the consequences of actions of others etc. If we could trace the law of cause and effect back far enough who is to say that God couldn't have put the plan in motion.

I don't like to believe this as it makes me feel like a pawn with no free will but hey, it could be true.

At last someone who has an open mind and doesn't blindly follow the "science explains everything" argument

But what if God had control of all of the energy and matter that does exist, then he would have infinite power as he could control everything. From that angle he could exist I suppose.


It is possible that there a god or being or something that destroyed itself to make the big bang and create everything else. But then how do we know of it? It couldnt exist unless the universe as we know it didn't.

At last someone who has an open mind and doesn't blindly follow the "science explains everything" argument

Science doesn't explain everything YET, Tim. But it will. Religion doesnt exlain anything. it poses more queastions than it answers. its so vague and stupid that it is believed by every weak minded fool. And they will someday come to their senses.

Thats bollox. Atoms aren't that small. We don't know enough to explain EVERYTHING. But we can tell you what cant happen and that's GOD! We know enough of the nature of the universe to know what it likes and that is for everything to be broken down into it's most stable form. What has that to do with the religion thing? Probably nothing. I'm just saying it. I t has to be said.


Right, first off, you don't know ANYTHING compared to what is left to discover. Being a scientist, if you can't acknowledge that we know very little then you are obviously a extremely narrowminded individual, let alone one ignorant scientist.

Sorry my friend, but I simply cannot accept your arguments as a reason for proving there can't be a god.

Science doesn't explain everything YET, Tim. But it will. Religion doesnt exlain anything. it poses more queastions than it answers. its so vague and stupid that it is believed by every weak minded fool. And they will someday come to their senses.


Ok so you're saying that billions of people around the world are weak-minded? Hmm sorry man but I KNOW that you are wrong. And by the way, I have had almost all my questions answered by religion. Obviously you haven't looked into enough.

Hey East Canuck,

You asked me to point at certian things I ranted at in my post so just for you:

I said:

'No Atheist wants to be converted all they really want to do is attempt to make people look stupid'

UN Ambasader said:

'I think the part where I have to devote my life to something blindly, yeah I think thats it.'

Does this not suggest that all those with faith are stupid for follwing something without proof?

I said:

'If you don't belive then fine, go ahead and stop having a go at those that do.'

So this thread is what now 12 pages long?

You said:

'that is a load of bollocks. An atheist believe there is no god, not just "no christian god" as such, his arguments tend to attack any higer being. So non-christian arguments usually fall flat too. It's just that christian arguments are what atheists usually hear so they can attack these easilly and by rote.'

And I say:

No that's bollocks, look back through the thread and pointout to me an Atheist argument that is not based around the Christian concept of God. It seems to me that if Athesist arguments are based around the Christian concept of God then, their stance is as weak as the Christian stance.

They started off as the same thing but diverged as it became apparent that "magic" does not exist. And there is proof, anthropology, historical sociology. Read a goddam book!


Hey love rock city,

So you agree that science and religion started off as the same thing? So scince started off trying to control the massess?

I have read, and do read many books,BTW, and this old religion is there to control the masses bollox is just that. A tired old line trotted out now and then.
So tell me how many successfull Theocracys do you know of? And magic has been proved not to exsist since when, I thought that the jury was still out on that one.

Ohh these books you suggest I read, they wouldn't the kind that only puts across one point of view would they?

We didn't 'all come from a rock' and spouting rubish like that will only advertise your ignorance. Educate yourself (http://www.talkorigins.org/).

I think the we came from a rock thing was figurative rather than literal. The most likely source of life is the most commonly thrown around, an Almighty Creator, or the random combination of various chemicals.

Personally I can't bring myself to believe the Universe was created by chance, it's far too complex and (as already stated) Orderly. But I can see why a person would believe in the random creation thing.

Would you like to be refered to LDS missionaries?

(Does that gain or lose points for Christianity?)

Anyone wanna try and put up a scoreboard now?

Look man, I know we are far from figuring out every little detail and most big details in the Universe. I've said that if you can prove me wrong, I'll accept it. But all you can seem to do is not acknowlege the fact that I'm right going by the information that is known as a fact today. Fundamental Principals that cannot be changed. We know that Einstein was probably wrong, we have hypothesis that the speed of light is getting slower and We can tell you when the Human race, if it survives long enough, will eventually run out of quantum singularities with which to convert matter to energy to power an ever expanding civilisation. But YOU, the narrow minded ignorami out there dont believe that science has the answers! So lets take this debate onto the philosophical stage and let me prove you wrong once and for all!

If there is a god, why does it allow so many religons to beat the living crap out of each other. *to believe in holy war is STUPID*

If there is a god, and it will punish us for not believing in it, why allow so many cults and religions to run riot? All religious paths lead to god, you say? Then how come it allows for the holy wars and such? Innocent people dying because of their beliefs in something as flimsy as "a couple of thusand years ago this dude said he was the son of god" and before jesus there was moses. "some dude talked with god through a bush that was on fire, but it like didn't burn"


Whether it happened or not as the book of lies "bible/torah/koran/etc" said, that I can say most of it did not. Now, I must leave. You're all idiots.

And by the way, I have had almost all my questions answered by religion. Obviously you haven't looked into enough.

Your religion answers questions like "how did life begin" ? Do share - and do not forget to explain how your deity/deities of choice came into existence.
After all - saying "God did it" just *shifts* the problem to God. It doesn't actually *solve* the problem.

Of course, if ones questions are not too detailed and one is easily satified - then religion indeed offers pretty good answers. A comparison with junkfood comes to mind...

Look man, I know we are far from figuring out every little detail and most big details in the Universe. I've said that if you can prove me wrong, I'll accept it. But all you can seem to do is not acknowlege the fact that I'm right going by the information that is known as a fact today. Fundamental Principals that cannot be changed. We know that Einstein was probably wrong, we have hypothesis that the speed of light is getting slower and We can tell you when the Human race, if it survives long enough, will eventually run out of quantum singularities with which to convert matter to energy to power an ever expanding civilisation. But YOU, the narrow minded ignorami out there dont believe that science has the answers! So lets take this debate onto the philosophical stage and let me prove you wrong once and for all!

If there is a god, why does it allow so many religons to beat the living crap out of each other. *to believe in holy war is STUPID*

If there is a god, and it will punish us for not believing in it, why allow so many cults and religions to run riot? All religious paths lead to god, you say? Then how come it allows for the holy wars and such? Innocent people dying because of their beliefs in something as flimsy as "a couple of thusand years ago this dude said he was the son of god" and before jesus there was moses. "some dude talked with god through a bush that was on fire, but it like didn't burn"


Whether it happened or not as the book of lies "bible/torah/koran/etc" said, that I can say most of it did not. Now, I must leave. You're all idiots.

You sir, are the idiot.

Right, first off, you don't know ANYTHING compared to what is left to discover. Being a scientist, if you can't acknowledge that we know very little then you are obviously a extremely narrowminded individual, let alone one ignorant scientist.

Sorry my friend, but I simply cannot accept your arguments as a reason for proving there can't be a god.

Good God!! (irony!!) Are you reading ANYTHING that posted here? Or are you just seeing posts and saying "No."? How is God an answer to anything at all? It's a half-assed answer. The God 'theory', if it can even be given that title, just says "We'll, we don't know everything, but I suspect there's a mystical being out there that does. Let's worship it."

Our actions are the result of our mental reasoning which is based on our experiences, which in turn is based on our actions, natural disasters and other peoples actions which were created as the consequences of actions of others etc. If we could trace the law of cause and effect back far enough who is to say that God couldn't have put the plan in motion.

Now HERE'S someone who's got it. Almost. Provided you recognize that mental reasoning is the result of chemical reactions, which are inherently predictable, and thus our 'reasoning' is actually a response to our decisions. Think of it this way: things happen, our bodies do things, and 'reasoning' convinces itself that it made that decision. Very interesting evolutionary development. I haven't figured out how exactly it benefits us, though. Gotta keep reading books :D

Personally i believe that it is theoretically possible for a being of "energy" to exist. Not like some of the things out of Star Trek, but something similar in principal. But, its not a god if it's not omnipotent, why worship it otherwise. If it isn't omnipotent, then it's just another being in the galaxy having a laugh at us. It cannot create an "everlasting life" that's impossible.

This is another good theory, I think I presented a similar idea somwhere on this thread. My argument was something to the effect of "If there is a God, he is subject to the same causalistic reality as we are, and inherently is not worthy of worship."

You sir, are the idiot.

Does that qualify as an argument? Nope.

Look man, I know we are far from figuring out every little detail and most big details in the Universe. I've said that if you can prove me wrong, I'll accept it. But all you can seem to do is not acknowlege the fact that I'm right going by the information that is known as a fact today. Fundamental Principals that cannot be changed. We know that Einstein was probably wrong, we have hypothesis that the speed of light is getting slower and We can tell you when the Human race, if it survives long enough, will eventually run out of quantum singularities with which to convert matter to energy to power an ever expanding civilisation. But YOU, the narrow minded ignorami out there dont believe that science has the answers! So lets take this debate onto the philosophical stage and let me prove you wrong once and for all!

hmmm ok go on....


If there is a god, why does it allow so many religons to beat the living crap out of each other. *to believe in holy war is STUPID*

Religions don't be the crap out of each other. Humans do. I'm not a religion.


If there is a god, and it will punish us for not believing in it, why allow so many cults and religions to run riot? All religious paths lead to god, you say?


No I didn't say that.


Then how come it allows for the holy wars and such? Innocent people dying because of their beliefs in something as flimsy as "a couple of thusand years ago this dude said he was the son of god" and before jesus there was moses. "some dude talked with god through a bush that was on fire, but it like didn't burn"


Yet you willingly believe what you read in the New York Times everyday? Hmmm.......


Whether it happened or not as the book of lies "bible/torah/koran/etc" said, that I can say most of it did not. Now, I must leave. You're all idiots.

Oh sorry that was your argument.... Ok here's a piece of advice.... Think of a better argument next time

I think the we came from a rock thing was figurative rather than literal. The most likely source of life is the most commonly thrown around, an Almighty Creator, or the random combination of various chemicals.

Personally I can't bring myself to believe the Universe was created by chance, it's far too complex and (as already stated) Orderly. But I can see why a person would believe in the random creation thing.

Anyone who says that the universe cannot have come into being through random chance has not done enough research. Science can readily explain a Universe assembling randomly. For those of you who are up for some heavy reading, try to find a copy of "The Arrow Of Time" by Peter Coveney and Richard Highfield. For those of you not ready to tackle quantum theory, buy yourselves a copy of "The Blind Watchmaker" by Dawkins. Both are highly informed, well written and well argued works. If someone on this thread could point me towards a good counterargument for scientific theory, I'd appreciate it, because I haven't found one.

Of course, I don't expect any of you to actually go out and read any of this, because you've come to foregone conclusions, which I find rather dissapointing. Instead, this post is here to point out that the educated arguments are out there, if you were willing to look. Because, let's face it, we're not exactly the most informed people, arguing this over NationStates.

Also, I'd just like to toss this out there: to anyone who says that the existence of God cannot be disproven, can you please disprove scientific theory?

Any religious person who calls a person of science narrow minded is the greatest hypocrite to ever inhabit this planet.

Let me take this in a slightly differant direction then.

It is my contension that a faith in God is equaly as valid as no faith in God. Why? Because all proof is subjective/relative.

Atheists claim they do not belive in the existance of God because there is no proof. To that I say fine(my faith is not one that belives God punishes us), it is not my job to convert you and honestly I couldn't care what you belive.
The majority of Atheists also though call me and people like me stupid for holding a belife without proof.

This then is the rub of the matter, why am I any less stupid for holding such faith when you do exactly the same?

If you think that you do not, then lets philosophise.

hmmm ok go on....

Religions don't be the crap out of each other. Humans do. I'm not a religion.

No I didn't say that.

Yet you willingly believe what you read in the New York Times everyday? Hmmm.......

Oh sorry that was your argument.... Ok here's a piece of advice.... Think of a better argument next time

There can't be ANYONE here who thinks that this person is making sense in his 'arguments'. I don't care if you agree with his views, he's just being cranky.

There can't be ANYONE here who thinks that this person is making sense in his 'arguments'. I don't care if you agree with his views, he's just being cranky.


Heh heheh cranky, I lke that. Say we are allowed to be cranky now aint we, I mean just how heavyly moderated is this thing then?

LOL, everyone gets in a riot when there beliefs are questioned. Well, its all how you want to look at it, science kills god, but poloticans kill science, if you look hard enough, you can find "truth" in anything. Hell, if i wanted, i could say I was god, and some people would believe, as long as i could find "truth", and as long as i could give them "truth". So, what do you say? will you bow down to me today? :)

You know I don't nessacirly agree that scince kills God, but it is true that Politicians killl well anything they can get their greedy little scheeming hands on.
Bitter me , noooooooo

Cheers,

lee.

:) well, i guess you got me on that one:)

So, what do you say? will you bow down to me today? :)

Allow me to test your godhood first.
*gets gun*
*makes sure that "deadhead" lives up to his name by pumping several bullets in him"

Hmmm.. nothing special happened. Sorry, I fear you failed the test.

All religions are make believe.

I love my one liners :)

All religions are make believe.

I love my one liners :)
Short, but meaningless.

;)
:D

Let me take this in a slightly differant direction then.

It is my contension that a faith in God is equaly as valid as no faith in God. Why? Because all proof is subjective/relative.

Atheists claim they do not belive in the existance of God because there is no proof. To that I say fine(my faith is not one that belives God punishes us), it is not my job to convert you and honestly I couldn't care what you belive.
The majority of Atheists also though call me and people like me stupid for holding a belife without proof.

This then is the rub of the matter, why am I any less stupid for holding such faith when you do exactly the same?

If you think that you do not, then lets philosophise.
What is the "validity" of no faith in God? That doesn't mean much to me.

I take it you say "proof" is subjective/relative in that it must have an agent, that being the individual to whom something is being proven. But then, it is not the "proof" (evidence) itself that is subjective, but the "it is proven".

Also, something deemed "subjective" does not automatically cease to exist; you imply that there is no proof because it is subjective. I say, the fact that something is proven is what is subjective. If God is proven to someone, for themselves, then that is subjective; if there is no proof (evidence), then there is nothing to "be proven" about, so nothing to be subjective about.

Hey East Canuck,

You asked me to point at certian things I ranted at in my post so just for you:

I said:

'No Atheist wants to be converted all they really want to do is attempt to make people look stupid'

UN Ambasader said:

'I think the part where I have to devote my life to something blindly, yeah I think thats it.'

Does this not suggest that all those with faith are stupid for follwing something without proof?
No. It merely denotes that UN Ambassador sees proof as being an important of his belief system. It doesn't insult in any way your belief system.

Sure, UN Ambassador says it in a condescending manner, but that is his style and it's why I ignore him.


I said:

'If you don't belive then fine, go ahead and stop having a go at those that do.'

So this thread is what now 12 pages long?
A long discussion doesn't make it an attack towards your belief. Believe me, if atheists were having a go at your religion, it would be much more ugly. Although the last two pages show me that I will be proven wrong by a few posters. But when I asked you to cite some attacks to your belief system, there were none in the thread.

You said:

'that is a load of bollocks. An atheist believe there is no god, not just "no christian god" as such, his arguments tend to attack any higer being. So non-christian arguments usually fall flat too. It's just that christian arguments are what atheists usually hear so they can attack these easilly and by rote.'

And I say:

No that's bollocks, look back through the thread and point out to me an Atheist argument that is not based around the Christian concept of God. It seems to me that if Athesist arguments are based around the Christian concept of God then, their stance is as weak as the Christian stance.
An atheist asked "convert me". There were some conversion attempts by christians that were attacked. Find me an argument for buddhism and that argument will be attacked too.

"There is no god" is as much a stance against the Christian concept of God as a stance against a Muslim, Jewish, Egyptian or Greek concept of god. You'll find that when an argument is good against one god it's good against any god.

For example: coercion. Most religion have a belief in an after-life with a good result (say heaven) and a bad result (say hell) and the tenet that you have to be "good" not to get a nasty result, specifically: the bad place.

Most atheists balk at the concept of coercion. And refuse to acknowledge the view of one religion as being the definitive authority on what is "good".

and for the record, I'd suggest you look into the quote function. It would save the both of us time.

Probably a bit late but I have some questions on the Jesus is a plant thing.

1, what is the shroud of Turin made of? I mean is it linen? Or cotton?

See last time I checked linen was made from flax which is a type of plant. (Used to have a bluish purple variety growing in my backyard. beautiful flowers) and it was common in at the time because the Egyptians used it to wrap mummies.

Cotton is a plant too but I don't know offhand if it was used back then.

Wool was used back then but it's from an animal so if the shroud was wool then Jesus was a plant.

But if it was the first two, then we just have a case of contamination on our hands.

It is possible that there a god or being or something that destroyed itself to make the big bang and create everything else. But then how do we know of it? It couldnt exist unless the universe as we know it didn't.

Have you been reading a book called "Gods Debris"?

What kind of plant?

Hmm... Maybe that's why I'm a strict carnivore? Something on a subconscious level?

Mmmm... Meat... :fluffle:

There are some truths that men are not meant to know...

Have you been reading a book called "Gods Debris"?

I enjoyed that book but there were so many flaws it was painful.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.
Read "The Future of an Illusion" by Freud.

Probably a bit late but I have some questions on the Jesus is a plant thing.

1, what is the shroud of Turin made of? I mean is it linen? Or cotton?

See last time I checked linen was made from flax which is a type of plant. (Used to have a bluish purple variety growing in my backyard. beautiful flowers) and it was common in at the time because the Egyptians used it to wrap mummies.

Cotton is a plant too but I don't know offhand if it was used back then.

Wool was used back then but it's from an animal so if the shroud was wool then Jesus was a plant.

But if it was the first two, then we just have a case of contamination on our hands.


That, my friend,is why you must have faith. You can try to explain it away if you wish but I know in my heart that Jesus was a plant and nothing you can say can take that away from me.

All religions are make believe.

I love my one liners :)

Except that one religion dedicated to the worship of the platypus. I'm pretty sure there's archeological evidence linking the creation of the word to platypi. Srsly.

That, my friend,is why you must have faith. You can try to explain it away if you wish but I know in my heart that Jesus was a plant and nothing you can say can take that away from me.
Wait? Is this "Jesus Was A Plant Thing" for real? I thought it was a joke.

That, my friend,is why you must have faith. You can try to explain it away if you wish but I know in my heart that Jesus was a plant and nothing you can say can take that away from me.
You've got it the wrong way around; plants are Jesus! God incarnate, they die for our transgressions and are reborn through the power of God. Through plants are we saved!

ermm.... yes?

I don't want to come here and preach to you people. But I will say that a lot of my religion comes down to faith. An awful lot.

Now obviously you don't have all the answers... no-one does. I didn't say I did. But I will say if you don't have all the right answers then you shouldn't come along criticising other people. That's what causes arguments. In fact, that's what causes 'holy' wars.

Sorry if I came across too strong before. I am just very passionate about my beliefs. I know they are true, but its up to you whether you want to accept that.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

Do you eat pork?

If so consider Christianity!

Unlike other faiths we are permitted to dine on swine.


mattr0cka

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.
Alright, but I think that you have already started down the right path, by acknowledging your need for God. I am a Christian. The Christian faith states that Jesus died to save all people and rose again from the dead. If you believe in him you can have eternal life. Jesus fulfilled all of the perdictions of the Old Testiment.

Alright, but I think that you have already started down the right path, by acknowledging your need for God. I am a Christian. The Christian faith states that Jesus died to save all people and rose again from the dead. If you believe in him you can have eternal life. Jesus fulfilled all of the perdictions of the Old Testiment.
Don't bother. This is a guy who won't believe in anything without scientific proof, and believes that it's alright to murder and torture Iraqi children.

Wait? Is this "Jesus Was A Plant Thing" for real? I thought it was a joke.

Well some of the 'blood' from the 'bloodstains' on the Turin Shroud were found to have cell walls so the only logical explanation is that Jesus was a plant (as the vatican insist that it is genuine).

Well some of the 'blood' from the 'bloodstains' on the Turin Shroud were found to have cell walls so the only logical explanation is that Jesus was a plant (as the vatican insist that it is genuine).
Do you have any links?

Do you have any links?

I can't find a specific reference to the cell walls but there is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin_shroud#Blood_stains):

There are several reddish stains on the shroud suggesting blood. Chemist Walter McCrone (see above) identified these as simple pigment materials and reported that no forensic tests of the samples he used indicated the presence of blood. Other researchers, including Alan Adler, a chemist specializing in analysis of porphyrins, identified the reddish stains as type AB blood.

The particular shade of red of the supposed blood stains is also problematic. Normally, whole blood stains discolor relatively rapidly, turning to a black-brown color, while these stains in fact range from a true red to the more normal brown color. However, the stains could have been not from bleeding wounds, but from the liquid exuded by blood clots. In the case of severe trauma, as evidenced by the Man of the Shroud, this liquid would include a mixture of bilirubin and oxidized hemoglobin, which could remain red indefinitely. Adler and John Heller [8] detected bilirubin and the protein albumin in the stains. However, it is uncertain whether the blood stains were produced at the same time as the image, which Adler and Heller attributed to premature aging of the linen.[9]

The pigment it refers to was a form of plant material.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

God is not a path but a state of mind. Personally I think following an organized religion is the lazy way out rather than sitting down and developing your own ideas.

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.
As the guy before said, you are on the right path already by admitting it. In the Bible, there is the ancient civilization of the Hittites, and a few years ago they found ancient ancient artifacts from the area where the Hittites were known to be. Also, the ocean currents are proven in Jonah 2:3 You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.

The Mouthbreeder fish can only be found in 2 places: the Indian Ocean and the Sea of Galiae

Matthew 17:24-27 tals about this:
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax[a]?"
25"Yes, he does," he replied.
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?"

26"From others," Peter answered.

"Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. 27"But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."


Message me if you want to know anything else.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Best puppet ever.

Please check my edit.

Best puppet ever.
?

The Turin Shroud wasn't Jesus; it was the calcified image of Jacques de Molay (last Grand Master of the Knights Templar) after he was tortured into confessing to a wide array of crimes he didn't commit.

?
Unabbasadorship has such extreme right wing views (REALLY EXTREME) that most people think he created his account to make fun of right wingers.

As the guy before said, you are on the right path already by admitting it. In the Bible, there is the ancient civilization of the Hittites, and a few years ago they found ancient ancient artifacts from the area where the Hittites were known to be. Also, the ocean currents are proven in Jonah 2:3 You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.

The Mouthbreeder fish can only be found in 2 places: the Indian Ocean and the Sea of Galiae

Matthew 17:24-27 tals about this:


Message me if you want to know anything else.

This a pretty good example of a crazy logical leap. What you are basically saying is that since the Bible got it right about ocean currents and fish then the other stuff must be correct as well. You are selectively ignoring errors of (ahem) Biblical proportions such as the idea of Geocentrism and the young earth theory. I am not anti-religion but I am anti-taking everything that is written in the bible as fact.

UN, if your still there, i'd really like clarification on this, are you being even close to serious about this, or is what some of these guys say, you won't accept anything without absolute, science-only proof? It's just the last time I tried evangelizing here what I wrote caused several days of debate and about 10-15 pages of posts which made me stay up till about 2-3 in the morning or something answering everybody only to have it locked for no reason right in the middle of it all, and if I do it again, i'd like to know that somebody out there is listening rather than just looking to snipe at me :/. It's not that im not willing to give it the old collage try, it's just i'd like some clarification on what exactly you want, (Or even if you were looking for anything at all) such as are you an implicit or explicit atheist or whatnot, because then I gotta add on stuff to what I want to say and things :/.

Wow this whole thing is still going.

You know there's some industrial band called Converter. Maybe they can help.

If not, it's still good music. The cds are cheap, too.

Ok I haven't read any other posts, so this is just from the heart and mind... Have you woke up in the middle of the night, feeling lonely, or just empy inside? Well obviously at some point you have had that feeling of emptiness or else you would have not been asking to convert. Many people give the point that you can't prove God, or prove anything about Christianity. Well to certain point you can. Sure you cannot use objective science to prove, but with your heart you can. I know that sounds cheesy. But let me tell you what, since I accepted the Lord Jesus as my saviour, I have been on one wild journey. I have seen things that are incomprehensible to the mind, i have felt an annointing over my body and soul like nothing else. Every day when i wake up, I fall to me knees and thank God for giving me something to live for. I know if i weren't a christian, by this point i would have prolly been found dead sometime...Now becoming a christian isn't always easy....But you have someone to ALWAYS be there for you...And that is the greatest thought to have.


Thomas


Further proof that the placebo effect is real.

God is not a path but a state of mind. Personally I think following an organized religion is the lazy way out rather than sitting down and developing your own ideas.

I was wondering if anyone would touch on this sort of thing. It's a nice break from the:

'GOD MOFO! FAITH!'

'Science! Back devil!'

'Wtf?'

'Dunno.'

'Let's eat a sandwich.'

'Agreed.'


Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

But seriously. At the very least, religion and spirituality wouldn't be intertwined. Religion is a sort of organized spirituality. And both science and religion sort of have their roots in trying to explain the unexplained. I'm not sure any one choice by and of itself would offer any serious advantages. It's more what you'd bring to it. Whatever you're looking for is inside of you, so where you go with it isn't really as important as getting a little more in touch with yourself and who you are..

It's just the last time I tried evangelizing here what I wrote caused several days of debate and about 10-15 pages of posts which made me stay up till about 2-3 in the morning or something answering everybody only to have it locked for no reason right in the middle of it all,.

Good God.

No need to worry you did your fair share. No need to envangilise to us we are to far gone. ;)

Im an atheist, and I think I may need God. But only if I really believe in him, this is no joke. So Im asking all you Christians out there to give me your best arguments on why god is real, and why your god is the right one. and if muslims want to convert me to follow Allah, thats good to. So give me your very best arguments please.

I'm something of a nihlist, but if you are looking for religion I advise you to read Sickness Unto Death by Kierkegaard; if you approach it with what Christians consider an open mind (i.e. with the will to believe) you will come to understand that "objective truth" is meaningless in relation to faith which is a "subjective truth" (I know that sounds stupid but it is explained very well). If you accept that you can then proceed to pick out a God of your choice (Baha'i Faith looks good, but really anything other than Christianity, Islam and Judaism is). But it is important you believe for the right reasons (relieving yourself of despair).

The science is an observation of everything around you. How does a scientist determine if something is made with intelligence or random? How does an archaeologist determine if a pile of rock has been touched by intelligence or just a pile of rock? The answer is order. If something is ordered it is determined to be ordered by intelligence.

Now look at the basics of scientific observation of the universe. There is nothing that is truely random. Everything is totallly ordered. Physics is phisics; Chemistry is chemistry; Gravity is gravity; Light is Light......... It matters not where we look in the universe. Order everywhere. If the Universe were to be just appear there should be some randomness as nature tried out different types of light, gravity, etc. But there is no random. Everything everywhere is the same. Total Order.

Order is the scientific sign of intelligence.

You are dead wrong on that; order has nothing to do with intelligence. The universe simply appears ordered either out of necessity or out of our need to conceive it as ordered so that we can survive and function in it. The apparent order of the universe does not need a creator to explain it. Of course nothing is random; what do you conceive of as random? Rocks growing into theologians? If everything occurs through "causation" and necessity (as all evidence suggests) a universe can not be considered random or ordered since there is nothing to compare it to (which is true regardless) and there is not even a possibility for things to be different.

It's simple: I refuse to believe life is futile.

If I was capable of feeling pity, I'd pity people like you. Why should it even concern you whether there is a God out there for some plan for you? Give youself your own meaning in life; your own goal or desire to pursue in order to give coherence and meaning to your life. The fact this life ends in oblivion does not make it futile either; nothing is permanent, there is no reason to desire otherwise. The temporal nature of our existence should just give more motivation to live well.

A very simple solution to the problem is realizing the ease of belief, or allowing yourself to believe (try to believe) and the overwhelming sh*thole of massive trouble you will be in if, indeed you are wrong.

Ever been wrong before, bucky? Not like this, I bet. To put it in perspective, if you are wrong, and I pity you if you are, when the Devil (pick a faith for a more accurate name) gets through with you, you're gonna be able to look up your hind end and see the sky. That kind of trouble....

See, belief isn't that bad, is it?

I look at it that way all the time, and you know, I'd be stupid not to believe, or at least try.

It is more than likely you are wrong and there is no God or no God interested in human affairs; but even if there is, what makes you assume you are worshipping the true one? You could just be angering the true God by worshipping the false God of the Christians.

why do i, a teenage american girl, worship Jesus Christ?

well... essentially because He is my creator and redeemer and savior and he deserves my praise

how do I know that he does? Because He is involved in my life. When I'm crying, He's there comforting me. When I'm scared, He is there to hold my hand and never let go. He leads me and guides me and I KNOW he loves me. And I love him too. That alone is enough... we can't love, TRULY love something that doesn't exist. Humans aren't built that way. We love and worship because He is real.

The Hindus love their gods; the Muslims love their's. Are all of those religions real? If you answered yes, you can make it work but it will require some creativity (I suggest starting with Hinduism to form the base of a composite religion, it will work the best).

I'm something of a nihlist, but if you are looking for religion I advise you to read Sickness Unto Death by Kierkegaard; if you approach it with what Christians consider an open mind (i.e. with the will to believe) you will come to understand that "objective truth" is meaningless in relation to faith which is a "subjective truth" (I know that sounds stupid but it is explained very well). If you accept that you can then proceed to pick out a God of your choice (Baha'i Faith looks good, but really anything other than Christianity, Islam and Judaism is). But it is important you believe for the right reasons (relieving yourself of despair).

Kierkegaard rocks my socks. At least, when he isn't being so damn repitative or difficult that you want to gouge out your eyes. Other than that, he's pretty fun.

Well, obviously they're real, unless the CIA is better at hoaxes than I've been led to believe. But if you asked me if they're correct, I'd have to, as a Christian say...

Yes.

Firstly, it doesn't matter to me what you call God, Allah, Shiva, Bob, etc. God is stil God. Second, Islam doesn't deny God or Jesus, it merely says Jesus was another prophet, rather than a messiah.

I'm a Christian pastor. I do not need to defend my faith. I believe because I am one who doubts.

This could obviously be a long discussion. There are many alternative beliefs out there. But to start with the argument of God or no God - I believe it takes less faith to believe in an eternal living God who started it all than it does to believe that we all came from a Rock. Everyone has faith in something. My faith system, however, allows for the intervention of the supernatural to explain the things people who question sit back and wonder about. I don't expect this post to change your world, but think about it.

Ah, I see. It is better to accept an easy answer than to take the time find the true one.

All major religions believe that their god is infallible, all knowing and all powerful. Personally i believe that it is theoretically possible for a being of "energy" to exist. Not like some of the things out of Star Trek, but something similar in principal. But, its not a god if it's not omnipotent, why worship it otherwise. If it isn't omnipotent, then it's just another being in the galaxy having a laugh at us. It cannot create an "everlasting life" that's impossible. (again, if there's a way to prove me wrong scientifically, then I'll admit I was incorrect.)

Well, I'd argue that it is not quite true that an amazingly powerful "energy being" would be unworthy of worship. If this being came to Earth and would destroy it if we didn't worship it, it would be worthy of worship. Also, if such a being contacted me, or I discovered it, and it offered me knowledge of the secrets of the universe (whatever that would entail) in exchange for worship and sacrifices; I would find it worthy of worship.

as a priest, are you anti gay, if so why?
I am bi, do you hate me? or just not consider me human or half human or are you goign to try to convert my sexuality? or forgive my sin? (sorry if this takes an offensive tone, i just havent had to much success talking to priest)
we did not evolve from rocks, you know that's not the theory, dont try to discredit it by changing it

But what if God had control of all of the energy and matter that does exist, then he would have infinite power as he could control everything. From that angle he could exist I suppose.

Some people say that an all-powerful God can't exist because we have free will but what if we don't?

Our actions are the result of our mental reasoning which is based on our experiences, which in turn is based on our actions, natural disasters and other peoples actions which were created as the consequences of actions of others etc. If we could trace the law of cause and effect back far enough who is to say that God couldn't have put the plan in motion.

I don't like to believe this as it makes me feel like a pawn with no free will but hey, it could be true.

Actually, it is generally believed that materialism necessitates determinism. The apparent existence of free will (which is certainly false as one will discover by studying psychology, sociology, and anthropology) is sometimes used as an argument for the existence of God since it requires some sort of mind/body division that requires a recourse into a non-physical plane of existence.

Science doesn't explain everything YET, Tim. But it will. Religion doesnt exlain anything. it poses more queastions than it answers. its so vague and stupid that it is believed by every weak minded fool. And they will someday come to their senses.

I agree with you about religion; but your belief that science will eventually explain everything is a worthless assertion of faith, absolute truth is unattainable (my anti-faith supported by reason, in distrustful relationship).

anyone read "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"? i strongly suggest you do, im too tired to give an accurate summary and stuff, look it up on the internet if your interested

btw jews christians and muslims believe in the same God just have different prophets. Best way besides having faith, going to church or going to see Christ in action like a missionary trip, then looks to physics. the universe had to come from somewhere right? then where it come from, i mean theres the whole big bang theory, but where did all the matter come from for that to happen? thats what proves there has to be some type of higher being. plus life on a planet is so remote of a chance of happening we had to have some help. Im a Christian and i even believe in the big bang and evolution and believe God is responsible for it all!!!! :)

Ga-halek u are clueless imo. there are tons of facts that prove God. Science for one proves its more than not. matter and energy cannot be created wihout coming from other energy or matter and cannot be destroy without turning into matter or energy.... with half lifes and atoms running out of energy there is a "life" to every particle. With out a God or higher being to renew the cycle or create it all to begin with explain where all us came from. Not to mention the numerous miracles that Jesus did,(I guess it must be a mass distortion of the truth for no appearant reason), and other people who are a religion of the book have witnessed. people getting cured out of nowhere without science to explain it? what the doctors are under educated and the people didnt have a deadly disease but just a bad cold? or their bodies magically decided to stop being sick? you would rather just pretend that God is fake and u can live an easy life, well have fun while u can.

first of all, most atheists dont beleive in the bible, so saying "since the bible says so it must be true" doesnt mean anything to us.
atoms do not lose energy, they release it but as it does electrons move up in shells (i doubt you actually know all this so ill stop here... feel free to ask for my email so i can explain)
Why would someone lie about jesus is simple, look how many christians there are in the world right now, if i could come up with a lie for people to start counting the rotations of the earth around the sun from the day i was born, to (literally) beleive me religiously. Follow my every action, my values, what i thought was right and what was wrong... who wouldnt lie.
and create the earth, the universe is huge, our solar system is 1 in a couple billion, in our cluster, there are a billion clusters in the milky way, there are an infinitely large amount of galaxies in the universe, odd are one or two can support life.

Ga-halek u are clueless imo. there are tons of facts that prove God. Science for one proves its more than not. matter and energy cannot be created wihout coming from other energy or matter and cannot be destroy without turning into matter or energy.... with half lifes and atoms running out of energy there is a "life" to every particle. With out a God or higher being to renew the cycle or create it all to begin with explain where all us came from. Not to mention the numerous miracles that Jesus did,(I guess it must be a mass distortion of the truth for no appearant reason), and other people who are a religion of the book have witnessed. people getting cured out of nowhere without science to explain it? what the doctors are under educated and the people didnt have a deadly disease but just a bad cold? or their bodies magically decided to stop being sick? you would rather just pretend that God is fake and u can live an easy life, well have fun while u can.

You essentially addressing three different things: First scientific proof of God; that does make sense and it does create an opening for a "God" of somekind but the fact that we can not currently understand how it is possible for particles to be "replenshed" and similar things does not necessarily lead one to a postulate a God if one is fine with not knowing. As much as I hate the term agnostic, I am largely am one; but even if there is a God or Gods, that in no way legitimates the Christian faith.

Miracles of Jesus: I cannot believe that you actually think that it is a valid argument. Every religion has tales of miracles and supernatural deeds; of course Christianity is no exception. That in no way means they actually happned. A mass distortion of the truth for no apparent reason? Can you honestly be so shallow in your thinking? The only distortions necessary was for a handful Jesus's followers to write down myths to go with the myths in the Old Testament (which you have admitted to be myths by your belief in evolution and the big bang). For the reason; why is any religion formed? If you can't come to an understanding on your own for why such a deception would be done, I am too tired to convince you. And if evolution is real; it follows that the Garden of Eden is not real (unless you only believe the parts of evolution that don't contradict your interpretation of Christianity) and if the garden of eden is not real there was no original sin; without an original sin there is no reason for God to send down his son/incarnate himself to die for our sins and bring our salvation; and thus Jesus is only just a man.

And of course your third argument, that those who don't follow religion (or likely follow anything other than Abrahamic religions) do not truly believe what they believe but do so they can live "easier" lives. You know nothing of my life and are in no position to judge it; and it is not an easy one. For hidden motivations leading one to "believe" something they don't truly believe; I could easily (or rather as easily as you accued me) accuse you of pretending to believe in God for motives such as feelings of love or relief of despair.

Yes atoms lose energy.... they release the energy and it goes somewhere else.... so they dont have it anymore. Over a period of time the universe will eventually die out. so if there is no God then one day all matter decided to appear? i guess science just one day decided to work and everything decided to go from there??? there has to be a God or higher being who started it all.

Ok lets just say you are Jesus and you are a fraud. why would u make up a religion that leads to your brutal death and no way of knowing the new religion will go anywhere. also no historian or scienctist has ever proved everything in the bible to be wrong and there has been a lot of people who have tried. besides the facts in the bible like the weather systems, pork having a disease in it at that time, and other medicial knowledge like germs and what not, without any way for people to know this information due to most wasnt proven tell centuries later with microscopes and such. yeah i guess the bible just got lucky on all their so called guesses?

You essentially addressing three different things: First scientific proof of God; that does make sense and it does create an opening for a "God" of somekind but the fact that we can not currently understand how it is possible for particles to be "replenshed" and similar things does not necessarily lead one to a postulate a God if one is fine with not knowing. As much as I hate the term agnostic, I am largely am one; but even if there is a God or Gods, that in no way legitimates the Christian faith.

Miracles of Jesus: I cannot believe that you actually think that it is a valid argument. Every religion has tales of miracles and supernatural deeds; of course Christianity is no exception. That in no way means they actually happned. A mass distortion of the truth for no apparent reason? Can you honestly be so shallow in your thinking? The only distortions necessary was for a handful Jesus's followers to write down myths to go with the myths in the Old Testament (which you have admitted to be myths by your belief in evolution and the big bang). For the reason; why is any religion formed? If you can't come to an understanding on your own for why such a deception would be done, I am too tired to convince you. And if evolution is real; it follows that the Garden of Eden is not real (unless you only believe the parts of evolution that don't contradict your interpretation of Christianity) and if the garden of eden is not real there was no original sin; without an original sin there is no reason for God to send down his son/incarnate himself to die for our sins and bring our salvation; and thus Jesus is only just a man.

And of course your third argument, that those who don't follow religion (or likely follow anything other than Abrahamic religions) do not truly believe what they believe but do so they can live "easier" lives. You know nothing of my life and are in no position to judge it; and it is not an easy one. For hidden motivations leading one to "believe" something they don't truly believe; I could easily (or rather as easily as you accued me) accuse you of pretending to believe in God for motives such as feelings of love or relief of despair.
to add to your statement i can explain it, im studying some quantum physics, sub subatomic particles are not particles, quarks make up protons, neutrons and electrons, the quarks have no mass but make up everything... the reason anythign weighs anything is gravity, gravity is caused by bends in the space time continuum, these quarks cause those bends. and so if there is a god, he is a flat peice of human generated image with an infinite amount of bends, dimples and holes that stretches for eternity, both in time and space... to prove it, look up a 2s orbital of an electron, they somehow teleport from one side to another without passing through.

Ga-halek it is true a lot of relgions have miracels and what not. and it could be true , i doubt it, that science just isnt far enough to find out how to replenish energy and matter. not sure on the whole if there is evolution there is no garden of eden point? i think the whole original sin happened around the time there a copule of different species of sapien. there was cromagnons(not spelled right) and such. If u read the bible it states that God made a species of man with was put in the garden of eden, and that when adam and eve left it they had children and such and around the time before noah those people started mixing in with the other species of man, hence where cromagnon went to, they mixed in with man and thus join with the now common species we have today. scienctists have found that cromagnon had a higher lvl of technology with meds and other items than other species of their time and had certain riturals, like buring the dead. also read my other post about science in the bible. Plus you cant disprove God, most of your posts are about crap imo that others have come up with in the past. also if your life isnt easy then wtf are u doing. without God or the bible there is no point in living a morale life or having it be hard. you should look to satanists and no i dont mean worship the devil, they have easy lifes and use your whole thing about making meaning of your life too.

personally i know what it feels like to have the holy spirit inside of me and have numerous prays answered and weird things happen that have no explaination but that there is a God, but no way of again proving anything. I guess either u have faith or u dont.

PropGandhi pls explain to me your opinion of how the universe came to be? do u believe that there had to be a begining to so called "time". or was the universe always here forever and ever. and yes i have taken physics and understand about space and how gravity effects it. and i consider a quark a particle.

and gravity is caused by matter moving at a high speed or just enough matter compacted into one region imo.

Yes atoms lose energy.... they release the energy and it goes somewhere else.... so they dont have it anymore. Over a period of time the universe will eventually die out. so if there is no God then one day all matter decided to appear? i guess science just one day decided to work and everything decided to go from there??? there has to be a God or higher being who started it all.

Ok lets just say you are Jesus and you are a fraud. why would u make up a religion that leads to your brutal death and no way of knowing the new religion will go anywhere. also no historian or scienctist has ever proved everything in the bible to be wrong and there has been a lot of people who have tried. besides the facts in the bible like the weather systems, pork having a disease in it at that time, and other medicial knowledge like germs and what not, without any way for people to know this information due to most wasnt proven tell centuries later with microscopes and such. yeah i guess the bible just got lucky on all their so called guesses?

yeah they sure got lucky when they guessed the universe was 9000 years old, that we evolved from apes, but adam and eve were created for the hell of it? and the sun rotating around the earth, yeah that was a luck guess too,
and the earth being flayt and all, i dont want to piss you of cause i dont want you to push me off the edge or anyting.
When atoms "lose" energy it is being released by the electron shifting to a lower energy leverl, thus losing its extra energy, sooner or later it will gain the energy back
this is a bad example i know it had flaws but: when you spend money, the money doesnt disapear, its is given to something else, (its a bad example because you can destroy money)