NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you think Turkey should be in let into the EU?

Personally, I think it's a terrible idea. If it happens, Turkey, a non-European nation, will be the most powerful nation in the EU.

Do you think Turkey should be in let into the EU?
I think they should but that's their own decision.
Personally, I think it's a terrible idea. If it happens, Turkey, a non-European nation, will be the most powerful nation in the EU.Turkey is both european and asian state.

Turkey IS a European state.

I disagree. Turkey is muslim, poor and agriculture-based. Europe is rich, Christian and industry-based.

Do you think Turkey should be in let into the EU?
No, not now. Both us and them will have to change before it happens.

If it happens, Turkey, a non-European nation, will be the most powerful nation in the EU.
We define what is European and what isn't. Is Poland? Is Estonia? Is Belarus? Is Russia?

And besides, it wouldn't be the most powerful nation in the EU. It would however be the one to bancrupt the rest because the amount of money it would have to get according to the agricultural subsidy scheme is ridiculous.
Plus they have a poor human rights record.

I think it will happen, but it will take a few more years for Turkey to get ready.
The Turkish government has for the last two decades been making a great deal of efforts to firmly establish democratic processes in their country and to develop towards the EU rather than towards Arabia/Asia.
Given them another few years and they'll be ready, I think.

I disagree. Turkey is muslim, poor and agriculture-based. Europe is rich, Christian and industry-based.

Europe isn't Christian. It's secular.

And besides, it wouldn't be the most powerful nation in the EU.

I read that power (votes, etc.) is based on population. If Turkey joined today, they'd be second behind Germany. In a few years they'll have a higher pop. than Germany.

Europe isn't Christian. It's secular.

Yeah, and so is Turkey. But the population is muslim.

I read that power (votes, etc.) is based on population. If Turkey joined today, they'd be second behind Germany. In a few years they'll have a higher pop. than Germany.

Not very likely, at the rate they are exporting their population to Germany at the moment.

Yeah, and so is Turkey. But the population is muslim.

And the population in the rest of Europe is Christian??? *lol

And the population in the rest of Europe is Christian??? *lol

Largely, yes.

I disagree.
I made corrections on my last post.

Turkey is muslim, poor and agriculture-based.
Jesus christ...

A muslim country can be a european state or a asian state. Also, they're not generally poor and agricultural based. Take Saudi Arabia and Albania for example, Saudi Arabia is a rich country dependant on oil and Albania is a poor european country where 70% of albanians are muslims.

Europe is rich, Christian and industry-based.
See above.

And while you're at it, go take Socials Studies 11.

I read that power (votes, etc.) is based on population.
Not entirely, and it would largely depend on whether and in what shape the constitution will come back. If they sit down again and try it with a bit of consultation with the people, I'd be pretty sure Turkey's case would be considered.

Yeah, and so is Turkey. But the population is muslim.I have a feeling, do you have a hate toward muslims?

They need a landbridge to Isreal somehow...

Yes but the world will have to survive till around 2020.

The olympics if they go well will increase this.

If the EU is to be independant of US dominances the the turkish support will be good (plus turkey is a member of NATO.. so the security apparatus.. russia is probably the last if it does.. around 2040-2050 (if the world is still around then)

It will be good for Turkey and it will be good for the EU. So there is no reason why it wouldn't happen. The more countries under the auspice of the EU the more global power and scope it has.

Turkey and Isreal are integrated in some ways, and middle east peace can be strenghtened on a landbridge to Isreal.

Turkish human rights would be forced to improve. Turkey is a fairly modern coutnry. The EU would have grounds to crack down on Turkey for inequalities in their government and it would probably midly liberalize.
The EU needs to get their constitution pased though before they admit more states.

Largely, yes.

*looks around... Latently, at best.

Largely, yes.
go to school buddy.

Jesus christ...

Ok, keep your pants on.

A muslim country can be a european state or a asian state. Also, they're not generally poor and agricultural based. Take Saudi Arabia and Albania for example, Saudi Arabia is a rich country dependant on oil and Albania is a poor european country where 70% of albanians are muslims.


Culturally, Turkey is closer to it's Middle Eastern neighbours. It's the same with Russia. European and Asian. But the dominant Russian culture is closer to Europe. That's my reasoning.

go to school buddy.

I'm pretty sure that Europe is largely Christian. Protestant and Catholic.

Culturally, Turkey is closer to it's Middle Eastern nations. It's the same with Russia. European and Asian. But the dominant Russian culture is closer to Europe. That's my reasoning.
Ever been to Turkey?

Kemal Atatürk worked all his life to make Turkey European, and he succeeded to some extent. It is true that there are a number of Islamic Parties in Turkey, but so far they haven't really been able to make a great impact. Too many Turks want their country to be modern and open and are generally wary of what happens to their South.

Which doesn't change that their prisons are not happy places and that they had that women's rights protest bashed by police. Not behaviour that should be encouraged by the EU at all.

I'm pretty sure that Europe is largely Christian. Protestant and Catholic.

So? European governments are secular, and so is the Turkish one. What difference does the faith of the population make, if it has any?

The EU has worked cultural miracles before, such as uniting Germany and France and Great Britain and France. Given the fact that European nations used to bat in their heads and developed independently before the EU, the argument that Turkey developed independently and has had some wars in the past with other European nations seems somewhat irrelevant.

The EU has worked cultural miracles before, such as uniting Germany and France and Great Britain and France. Given the fact that European nations used to bat in their heads and developed independently before the EU, the argument that Turkey developed independently and has had some wars in the past with other European nations seems somewhat irrelevant.

Yeah, but France and Germany aren't that different, culturally. They just didn't like each other much. Turkey, for all it's European influence, still has, in my mind, too much Asian in it too mix well with Europeans. At least, not as a full member of the EU.

So? European governments are secular, and so is the Turkish one. What difference does the faith of the population make, if it has any?

The EU has worked cultural miracles before, such as uniting Germany and France and Great Britain and France. Given the fact that European nations used to bat in their heads and developed independently before the EU, the argument that Turkey developed independently and has had some wars in the past with other European nations seems somewhat irrelevant.there you go K-P

Ever been to Turkey?

Kemal Atatürk worked all his life to make Turkey European, and he succeeded to some extent. It is true that there are a number of Islamic Parties in Turkey, but so far they haven't really been able to make a great impact. Too many Turks want their country to be modern and open and are generally wary of what happens to their South.

Which doesn't change that their prisons are not happy places and that they had that women's rights protest bashed by police. Not behaviour that should be encouraged by the EU at all.

It's a work in progress, but it's going the right way.

Which doesn't change that their prisons are not happy places and that they had that women's rights protest bashed by police. Not behaviour that should be encouraged by the EU at all.

*nod*
It may be a misinformed sentiment, but something about the Turks being united with the rest of Europe just makes my stomach churn... I'd have to say no on this one.. The former USSR states, sure they could prob. use the help/support. The sporadic states above Greece? Why not? but the Turks.... a bit to well known for ...<insert word meaning stripping human liberties and killing loads of people>

Yeah, but France and Germany aren't that different, culturally. They just didn't like each other much. Turkey, for all it's European influence, still has, in my mind, too much Asian in it too mix well with Europeans. At least, not as a full member of the EU.

The millions of Turks in Germany mix well with Europeans, generally. A lot better than most of the Polish, actually. I don't see why that would change at all when Turkey becomes an EU member.

And proclaiming that France and Germany are not that different culturally shows an immense lack of understanding of European cultures on the whole....

Yeah, but France and Germany aren't that different, culturally. They just didn't like each other much. Turkey, for all it's European influence, still has, in my mind, too much Asian in it too mix well with Europeans. At least, not as a full member of the EU.Because they're Arabs and Muslims???

Turkey, for all it's European influence, still has, in my mind, too much Asian in it too mix well with Europeans.
Two words: Italienische Gastarbeiter.

It's a work in progress, but it's going the right way.
*nods*

*nod*
It may be a misinformed sentiment, but something about the Turks being united with the rest of Europe just makes my stomach churn... I'd have to say no on this one.. The former USSR states, sure they could prob. use the help/support. The sporadic states above Greece? Why not? but the Turks.... a bit to well known for ...<insert word meaning stripping human liberties and killing loads of people>

Turkey has made a large number of reforms in order to qualify for EU membership, and they are willing to do more. Wouldn't you agree that for a country that is known to have violated human rights in the past, it would be desireable to have neighbours with considerable influence taking an active part in their internal politics?
In other words, don't you think the EU would have enough legislative power and influence to change Turkey's attitude to human rights violations?

Because they're Arabs and Muslims???

In a sense. More broadly, it'll just exacerbate the current problem in Europe. You know, lack of intergration. muslim enclaves and stuff.

Turkey, and islam as a whole, need to seriously be overhaul be they're even considered for the EU.

Two words: Italienische Gastarbeiter.

The Italians? Germans lived with them for 1000 years in the HRE. I think they're used to each other.

Besides, from what I've heard, they intergrate pretty well. My mom told me about kids with German first names and Italian last names. One of the biggest steps in intergrating is taking native names.

In a sense. More broadly, it'll just exacerbate the current problem in Europe. You know, lack of intergration. muslim enclaves and stuff.

Turkey, and islam as a whole, need to seriously be overhaul be they're even considered for the EU.So you mean muslim can't "integrate" with europeans??? Yeah, look at Albania and Bosnia, both european countries with huge muslim population!!! Albania with muslim majority. Can't integrate with europe? you're an idiot.

The Italians? Germans lived with them for 1000 years in the HRE. I think they're used to each other.
They weren't back in the sixties and seventies when they all came in, and didn't speak German, and lived in their own little enclaves and wouldn't integrate...

Besides, from what I've heard, they intergrate pretty well. My mom told me about kids with German first names and Italian last names. One of the biggest steps in intergrating is taking native names.
Which is my point.

So you mean muslim can't "integrate" with europeans??? Yeah, look at Albania and Bosnia, both european countries with huge muslim population!!! Can't integrate with europe? you're an idiot.

They're pretty European, though. It's mainly just religion, rather than having the muslim culture as well. I think. And if that's not true (I'm no expert), well... there was a Yugoslav war, right?

Which is my point.

Yeah, but the muslims haven't done that very well, I think. They're at least up to the second generation, and from what I've seen in France, it's a bit rocky.

Turkey has made a large number of reforms in order to qualify for EU membership, and they are willing to do more. Wouldn't you agree that for a country that is known to have violated human rights in the past, it would be desireable to have neighbours with considerable influence taking an active part in their internal politics?
In other words, don't you think the EU would have enough legislative power and influence to change Turkey's attitude to human rights violations?

What about the Armenian Genocide, though?

The Italians? Germans lived with them for 1000 years in the HRE. I think they're used to each other.

Besides, from what I've heard, they intergrate pretty well. My mom told me about kids with German first names and Italian last names. One of the biggest steps in intergrating is taking native names.

That took decades.
Gastarbeiter are people who were brought to Germany from the 60s onwards, as labour for jobs Germans wouldn't do. The first signs of integrations could only be observed in the 80s, before that German society hoped that they would go back if ignored long enough, beaten up, denied citizenship, spoken down to, denied any kind of workers rights and simply treated as slaves....
The Turks didn't take quite as long to integrate ;)

What about the Armenian Genocide, though?

Just out of curiosity... when do you think that happened?

Yeah, but the muslims haven't done that very well, I think. They're at least up to the second generation, and from what I've seen in France, it's a bit rocky.
Some. You shouldn't generalise.

But I won't deny that things need to be looked at - but you can't expect these things to happen quickly.

http://www.goethe.de/kug/ges/pok/prj/mig/lum/en970202.htm
http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/viewMedia.php/prmTemplateID/8/prmID/5280

That took decades.
Gastarbeiter are people who were brought to Germany from the 60s onwards, as labour for jobs Germans wouldn't do. The first signs of integrations could only be observed in the 80s, before that German society hoped that they would go back if ignored long enough, beaten up, denied citizenship, spoken down to, denied any kind of workers rights and simply treated as slaves....

Are you sure? My mom left in the seventies, and she says intergration was pretty good then.

Just out of curiosity... when do you think that happened?

Wasn't it just after WWI?

Are you sure? My mom left in the seventies, and she says intergration was pretty good then.
Well, she wouldn't be entirely truthful. The immigration of unintegrated guestworkers only stopped in 1973, and according to one of the links I just posted, real immigration only happened one or two generations later.

There may have been first hints of it in the seventies, but nothing large-scale.

You shouldn't generalise.
Turkey is muslim, poor and agriculture-based. Europe is rich, Christian and industry-based.K-P, aren't you just some uneducated Nazi or you alway generalize things like that.

Are you sure? My mom left in the seventies, and she says intergration was pretty good then.

I grew up in Germany in the 70s, and there was no integration whatsoever then. Government programs started to kick in in the late 70s/early 80s, when it finally became clear that the Gastarbeiter were not going to leave again, no matter how much you put them under pressure.
And Germany still maintains that it is not an immigration country, there is no way for most foreigners to ever obtain citizenship.


Wasn't it just after WWI?

During, to be precise. 1915-1917. It wasn't Turkey that committed that, it was the Ottoman Empire. With just the same argument you could kick Germany out of the EU for killing Jews, or Britain for the Boer War, or Italy or Spain for their former fascist governments, or Poland for having been communist.

Turkey in the EU ???? No Way !!!! :sniper:

Turkey in the EU ???? No Way !!!! :sniper:How's that contribute to your arguement?

I grew up in Germany in the 70s, and there was no integration whatsoever then. Government programs started to kick in in the late 70s/early 80s, when it finally became clear that the Gastarbeiter were not going to leave again, no matter how much you put them under pressure.
And Germany still maintains that it is not an immigration country, there is no way for most foreigners to ever obtain citizenship.

Well, maybe it was just my village.

During, to be precise. 1915-1917. It wasn't Turkey that committed that, it was the Ottoman Empire. With just the same argument you could kick Germany out of the EU for killing Jews, or Britain for the Boer War, or Italy or Spain for their former fascist governments, or Poland for having been communist.

Yeah, but Turkey doesn't ACKNOWLEDGE that it even committed the Genocide.

Plus they have a poor human rights record.

Which they have been steadily improving in the hopes of being allowed into the EU. The prospect of joining is causing them to improve their human rights. If they had no hopes of joining, they would leave things as they are.

A year or so ago, our President Chirac actually said something quite intelligent. That Turkey is at a crossroads between two worlds, and that we have a choice between embracing it into the European community, or pushing it away and relegating it to the Middle-East. Turkey is a secular nation but, if rebuffed from Europe, may well be tempted by another path.

Plus, I see no valid reason for not allowing Turkey into the EU.

I believe, that a country , that spurn human rights , has nothing to do in the EU. Torture is normal business in their prisons and a woman is worth nothing at all.

Yeah, but Turkey doesn't ACKNOWLEDGE that it even committed the Genocide.

Technically, they didn't. It was the Ottoman Empire... and they are now under pressure by the EU to come to terms with their history. That wouldn't be the case if they didn't try to become member.

Plus, I see no valid reason for not allowing Turkey into the EU.
True.
As it is, I don't think Turkey can join immediately, simply because of the agricultural subsidies. I did however agree with the talks that started a while back.

As I said, they need to continue with their course, and we need to change our system to acommodate them.

I would, by the way, also want someone to have a look at North Africa. If Turkey can join, some of them should be eligible too - and cheap labour is a good thing to have in modern times. But for that to work, it would need some comittment by the major European countries to move away from manufacturing and towards services, finance and R&D.

I believe, that a country , that spurn human rights , has nothing to do in the EU. Torture is normal business in their prisons and a woman is worth nothing at all.

See my post just above yours.

And you are aware, I hope, that they will be required to meet certain human rights standards before being allowed in? So in any case we're only talking about them joining once they've improved their human rights. Which makes your post completely beside the point.

True.
As it is, I don't think Turkey can join immediately, simply because of the agricultural subsidies. I did however agree with the talks that started a while back.


*nods*

Nobody is saying they can join immediately, or even in the next few years. But the talks are a good thing.

Technically, they didn't. It was the Ottoman Empire... and they are now under pressure by the EU to come to terms with their history. That wouldn't be the case if they didn't try to become member.

Ottoman Shmottoman. You know, Germany didn't commit the Holocaust. It was Nazi Germany. Totally different nations. :rolleyes:

*nods*

Nobody is saying they can join immediately, or even in the next few years. But the talks are a good thing.

They're talking about 2012, aren't they?

Ottoman Shmottoman. You know, Germany didn't commit the Holocaust. It was Nazi Germany. Totally different nations. :rolleyes:

The Bundesrepublik didn't, the German Reich did.
Same region, and yet completely different countries.

They're talking about 2012, aren't they?

2015, as far as I know.

and a woman is worth nothing at all.I suppose that's why their women got the right to vote before French and Italian women got it..

I would, by the way, also want someone to have a look at North Africa. If Turkey can join, some of them should be eligible tooWe should just try to get the whole former Roman empire together again ;)
And then some..

No.

I cannot see the average Turk marching along as part of the Schuetz und Trutze.
And I cannot imagine the average Frenchman, or Dane laying down his for the sake of Turkey either.


Does anyone here really think that Turkey is willing to accept lockstep cooperation questionmark. If they were willing to, how come the Turks do not treat the Cypriot question as an opportunity to conform and comply questionmark.


If you would enter my house, better be very sure that you are willing to conform and comply with each and every one of my rules and regulations.

No.

I cannot see the average Turk marching along as part of the Schuetz und Trutze.
And I cannot imagine the average Frenchman, or Dane laying down his for the sake of Turkey either.


Does anyone here really think that Turkey is willing to accept lockstep cooperation questionmark. If they were willing to, how come the Turks do not treat the Cypriot question as an opportunity to conform and comply questionmark.


If you would enter my house, better be very sure that you are willing to conform and comply with each and every one of my rules and regulations.

Questionmark.

Holla BogMarsh :D

I disagree. Turkey is muslim, poor and agriculture-based. Europe is rich, Christian and industry-based.If there was one state in Europe (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/al.html#People) that was Muslim and not Christian, your hypothesis would be disproven.

why dont the americans let turkey join NAFTA?

why dont the americans let turkey join NAFTA?

I'm taking a wild guess here, but I would say because Turkey never applied?

If there was one state in Europe (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/al.html#People) that was Muslim and not Christian, your hypothesis would be disproven.

Not... really, since Albania hardly makes all of Europe muslim.

Besides, how many EUs has Albania joined?:rolleyes:

Not... really, since Albania hardly makes all of Europe muslim.

Besides, how many EUs has Albania joined?:rolleyes:It doesn't have to make Europe Muslim. It just proves that Europe isn't totally Christian and that Turkey being Muslim isn't an arguement against its EU membership application.

And what does Albania not being in the EU have to do with Albania being in Europe?

Not... really, since Albania hardly makes all of Europe muslim.

Besides, how many EUs has Albania joined?:rolleyes:

Oh, but one Turkey will?

And Albania is an official candidate, as far as I know.

Oh, but one Turkey will?

And Albania is an official candidate, as far as I know.

Well, the difference between the two is that Turkey is massive. I mean, how can Turkey have so much power in Europe? Nobody thinks of Turkey when they think of Europe.

Man, if Turkey gets in, I want Russia in, so somebody can trump Turkey.

Well, the difference between the two is that Turkey is massive. I mean, how can Turkey have so much power in Europe? Nobody thinks of Turkey when they think of Europe.

Man, if Turkey gets in, I want Russia in, so somebody can trump Turkey.

How do you know how much power Turkey will eventually have in Europe?
And the fact that some people don't have the geographic background to know where Europe ends can hardly be an argument...

Well, the difference between the two is that Turkey is massive. I mean, how can Turkey have so much power in Europe? Nobody thinks of Turkey when they think of Europe.

Man, if Turkey gets in, I want Russia in, so somebody can trump Turkey.
Russia is out. That's a definite. But why would Turkey have so much power? They have a high population, but it's still plenty less than Germany's. And that would just be the parliament, in which the smaller states are favored unproportionally anyway.

Ultimately Turkey has always been a European player, a European power. From the first Turkish Princes, hired by the Saracens to make war on Byzantium over the crusades, over the Turks taking over Istanbul to the siege of Vienna and the 1913 wars - Turkey in its various forms was a player in European politics and economy.

To me, that puts an end to any geographical or cultural arguments. Politically and historically, Turkey is European.

Integration can only be achieved though inclusion. Segregation Turkey will not help integrate into Europe.

The EU hasn’t been about geography for a long time if New Zealand or Japan applied to be part of the EU the ink on the application wouldn’t be dry before everyone singed up.

There human rights record can’t get worse for joining the EU, and will almost certainly improve.

There population isn’t so much bigger than that of the UK and individual power means very little in the EU, its all about cooperation and compromise.


(On a side not, How does microsoft Word not have Zealand in its spelling dictionary!? But gets very uppity when I spell microsoft with a small m)

Russia is out. That's a definite. But why would Turkey have so much power? They have a high population, but it's still plenty less than Germany's. And that would just be the parliament, in which the smaller states are favored unproportionally anyway.

Only about 10 million less than Germany's.

Why should Russia be out? Plenty more European than Turkey.

Ultimately Turkey has always been a European player, a European power. From the first Turkish Princes, hired by the Saracens to make war on Byzantium over the crusades, over the Turks taking over Istanbul to the siege of Vienna and the 1913 wars - Turkey in its various forms was a player in European politics and economy.

To me, that puts an end to any geographical or cultural arguments. Politically and historically, Turkey is European.

Dude, they're not European. They tried to KILL us. That doesn't make them European.

But by your logic, let's let in Mongolia! They kicked everyone's ass!

Dude, they're not European. They tried to KILL us. That doesn't make them European.

They tried to kill us.....

They never tried to kill me. Oh historically right?

Well, then. Lets go down the list shall we:
Britain, Germany, Italy, France, Spain etc etc all tried to 'kill' their neighbours at one stage or another. That doesn't make then any less European.

In general, I call 'bullshit' on this thread.

Dude, they're not European. They tried to KILL us. That doesn't make them European.

Being involved in a land war in Europe actually seems to be a prerequisite of EU membership

Well, then. Lets go down the list shall we:
Britain, Germany, Italy, France, Spain etc etc all tried to 'kill' their neighbours at one stage or another. That doesn't make then any less European.
To me, that is what makes them European, or at least a part of it. The EU is as much about a common history as anything.
It's about burying the hatchet, so to speak, and ultimately it should include all the opposing parties.

I estimate this thread close to trolling, but seeing as the OP had no plan historically or politically even before this thread I must withhold my urge to vote on any poll in sight...seconded, this thread is cow manure

Only about 10 million less than Germany's.

Why should Russia be out? Plenty more European than Turkey.And plenty more asian on top of that. It's been stated by many EU officials time and time again that Russia is too big.

Dude, they're not European. They tried to KILL us. That doesn't make them European.

But by your logic, let's let in Mongolia! They kicked everyone's ass!

Geographically and politically, they are.
"Us"? If I remember correctly, you're Australian.

Dude, they're not European. They tried to KILL us. That doesn't make them European.

But by your logic, let's let in Mongolia! They kicked everyone's ass!Us? Don't you live in Australia?

I think they should but that's their own decision.
Turkey is both european and asian state.
Actually, turkey is 99.999% asian.

And plenty more asian on top of that. It's been stated by many EU officials time and time again that Russia is too big.

I don't think Russia applied for membership, anyway.

Gadhafi once said that letting Turkey into the EU would be allowing Bin Laden's Trojan horse into the region. Though I am not sure whether I fully believe that or not, I do find it an interesting analogy

Geographically and politically, they are.

No. No they're not. See that gap between Greece and Turkey? That's where Europe ends. That 3% of Turkish territory in Europe? Not enough to get into the Union.

"Us"? If I remember correctly, you're Australian.

Us? Don't you live in Australia?

Once again, a total lack of knowledge of Australian demographics and culture.

I don't think Russia applied for membership, anyway.

You are correct, further they were involved in trying to ensure Ukraine never got into the EU ...

No. No they're not. See that gap between Greece and Turkey? That's where Europe ends. That 3% of Turkish territory in Europe? Not enough to get into the Union.
Apparently it is.

Tough shit for you eh?

No. No they're not. See that gap between Greece and Turkey? That's where Europe ends. That 3% of Turkish territory in Europe? Not enough to get into the Union.Heck, Cyprus is a member and they're even further east than Turkey...

No. No they're not. See that gap between Greece and Turkey? That's where Europe ends. That 3% of Turkish territory in Europe? Not enough to get into the Union.

Greenland is in the Union, and if you check a map, that gap is even bigger. :rolleyes:

Heck, Cyprus is a member and they're even further east than Turkey...

They should be part of Greece, if it wasn't for Turkey.

Apparently it is.

Tough shit for you eh?

Fine. I demand that the United States of America be allowed to join the European Union. They own a tiny cemetary in France. That's enough to get in.

Once again, a total lack of knowledge of Australian demographics and culture.

Well, last time I check, Australia definitely wasn't in the EU .... :rolleyes:

Greenland is in the Union, and if you check a map, that gap is even bigger. :rolleyes:

Part of Denmark...

Fine. I demand that the United States of America be allowed to join the European Union. They own a tiny cemetary in France. That's enough to get in.

Let them apply, and we'll decide.

You're all being unreasonable. Half of Europe doesn't want Turkey, and you're forcing it down our throats.

Part of Denmark...

Exactly. Now, if you take the overall surface of Denmark and its overseas territories, the majority lies outside Europe geographically.

You're all being unreasonable. Half of Europe doesn't want Turkey, and you're forcing it down our throats.

I'm not forcing it down anyone's throat. You asked my opinion, and I gave it to you. And I provide the arguments I base it on.

And, buddy, you are not living in Europe. Time to wake up to that fact.

They should be part of Greece, if it wasn't for Turkey.Are you Greek or Cypriot too? Or why do you think you get to decide who gets what? And why would Greece be allowed in if they have territorial claims reaching to Asia?

You're all being unreasonable. Half of Europe doesn't want Turkey, and you're forcing it down our throats.
Ah democracy in action. 51% want something done- it gets done.
Again, WE'LL decide thank you very much- not Australia, ok?

You're all being unreasonable. Half of Europe doesn't want Turkey, and you're forcing it down our throats.Do you have EU citizenship?

Ok then. Goodbye.

Ah democracy in action. 51% want something done- it gets done.

I sem to remebmer a certain president got into power with a simila figure.

True now, was this trolling or flame baiting?

Ah democracy in action. 51% want something done- it gets done.

52% of the EU opposes Turkey. The EU doesn't care. Because they're bloody fascists.

I sem to remebmer a certain president got into power with a simila figure.
Yeah, its called having a mandate. I assume you are talking about George Bush? You'd be right. He got democratically elected the second time.

52% of the EU opposes Turkey. The EU doesn't care. Because they're bloody fascists.Source it please...

52% of the EU opposes Turkey. The EU doesn't care. Because they're bloody fascists.

Sources for this accusation?

52% of the EU opposes Turkey. The EU doesn't care. Because they're bloody fascists.

Right... I normally don't care either if 52% of myself want to do something. :rolleyes:
Where did you get that number from, anyway? Divine inspiration? And I would appreciate not to be called a fascist here, thank you.

The Eurobarometer May-June 2005 survey shows that 52% of EU citizens are against Turkey joining the EU, while about 35% are in favour. - Wikipedia

Well, there goes your islamofascist pipedream, pinko.

The Eurobarometer May-June 2005 survey shows that 52% of EU citizens are against Turkey joining the EU, while about 35% are in favour. - Wikipedia

Well, there goes your islamofascist pipedream, pinko.Link? Got a more recent one than nearly a year ago?

The Eurobarometer May-June 2005 survey shows that 52% of EU citizens are against Turkey joining the EU, while about 35% are in favour. - Wikipedia

Well, there goes your islamofascist pipedream, pinko.

God, still afarid of the muslim's, aren't you? And what exactly is this 'Eurobarometer' study? Link, or academic source citations, please.

So my sources aren't good enough for you, pinko?

So my sources aren't good enough for you, pinko?

Seeing as you refuse to provide the link, I submit you made it up.

So my sources aren't good enough for you, pinko?

Actually, I'm rather right of centre, so thats actually wrong. Your sources are out of date at nearly a year old. Turkey has done a lot of improving since that poll I'd wager, and people's attitudes do change.

Seeing as you refuse to provide the link, I submit you made it up.

www.wikipedia.com, retard.

So, uh, how do you feel about Croatia joining the Union?

*awaits cries of "They're poor!", "They abuse human rights!", "BUT THEY'RE WHITE!"*

www.wikipedia.com, retard.Still no direct link to anything, unless you managed to read "52 %" where it said "Português". (And it's www.wikipedia.org :p)

So, uh, how do you feel about Croatia joining the Union?

*awaits cries of "They're poor!", "They abuse human rights!", "BUT THEY'RE WHITE!"*

Same as Turkey. If they meet the requirements, they're in. What's you problem?

No problem with Croatia here. They train up to the standards and act responsibly, and they can come in. No matter whether they're black, white, rich, poor, muslim or christian.

Because, y'see, I don't fear that the Muslims are going to wipe us out and destroy your culture...

Same as Turkey. If they meet the requirements, they're in. What's you problem?

Because Turkey. Is. Not. European.

Because Turkey. Is. Not. European.

Says you.
Geography, politics and history say something different.

Because, y'see, I don't fear that the Muslims are going to wipe us out and destroy your culture...

Oh, so you accept it?

Because Turkey. Is. Not. European.Are you?

Still no direct link to anything, unless you managed to read "52 %" where it said "Português". (And it's www.wikipedia.org :p)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union#Public_opinion

Freaking Europeans, too lazy to find your own damn links. No wonder you needed guest workers, lazy freaks.

Oh, so you accept it?

Actually, The USA has done a lot more damage to that culture than any Muslim ever will ;)

Oh, so you accept it?Culture isn't something you put in a shelf only to dust it off and show it to the in-laws when they come to visit. It's dynamic. Or do we still run around in furs and carry stone spears?

Says you.
Geography, politics and history say something different.

Geography = Congratulations. They have a small piece of European territory. Just like every other nation on Earth.

Politically = When was a last time Europe cracked down of human rights?

Historically = Everyone is involved in everyone elses history. That's because we all live on the same planet!

Are you?

No, I'm the guy who has to suffer because Europe is too retarded to take care of itself.

Oh, so you accept it?

Sorry, just had to laugh out loud at that. Unlike you, my paranoid and racist friend, I don't think that a tiny minority of muslim fanatics and extremists will 'wipe out' European and Western culture. All culture adapts and changes whilst retaining everything that makes each country's culture unique.

For example, the UK has Muslim communities that have settled in fairly well - but I don't see the entire country being forced to pray five times a day, or women being forced to wear veils - do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union#Public_opinion

Freaking Europeans, too lazy to find your own damn links. No wonder you needed guest workers, lazy freaks.

You may want to stop the flaming, there. Keep it at least civil.

Actually, The USA has done a lot more damage to that culture than any Muslim ever will ;)

Really? I didn't see them bringing in any "Mahakkanah hakkanah, kill those who say islam is violent" shit.

For example, the UK has Muslim communities that have settled in fairly well - but I don't see the entire country being forced to pray five times a day, or women being forced to wear veils - do you?

They tried to take over a Scottish school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union#Public_opinion

Freaking Europeans, too lazy to find your own damn links. No wonder you needed guest workers, lazy freaks.Oh, I actually went to the Eurobarometer (http://www.gesis.org/en/data_service/eurobarometer/) site to find your source (which I didn't after the first couple clicks and I couldn't be bothered to keep looking). And if you're too lazy to provide links to your statements, why do you call us lazy when we don't do your work for you? (But at least you finally admitted that you're not European and that kind of means that "it's not being forced down your throat" at all.)

Has anyone missed the sign:

Do not feed the troll

Geography = Congratulations. They have a small piece of European territory. Just like every other nation on Earth.

Politically = When was a last time Europe cracked down of human rights?

Historically = Everyone is involved in everyone elses history. That's because we all live on the same planet!

And I'm done....

Calls BULLSHIT on this thread one final time.

*walks out*

They tried to take over a Scottish school.

Really? How odd, I've never heard of that. Sources, please?

And two to one odds its a small group of Muslim fanatics, which are hardly representative of most Muslims.

Really? I didn't see them bringing in any "Mahakkanah hakkanah, kill those who say islam is violent" shit.

No, they flouded inner cities with fastfood chains, Wallmarts and computer games stores. Far more destructive to culture than any form of violence.

No, they flouded inner cities with fastfood chains, Wallmarts and computer games stores. Far more destructive to culture than any form of violence.

Ok, I'm done here. I know a culture is seriously fucked in the head if it believes KFC is worse than death or enslavement.

With this attitude, Europe NEEDS to get it's ass kicked. And I hope the US stays the hell out this time.

Ok, I'm done here. I know a culture is seriously fucked in the head if it believes KFC is worse than death or enslavement.

With this attitude, Europe NEEDS to get it's ass kicked. And I hope the US stays the hell out this time.

Sure, as soon as Turkey enters the EU, we will all be sent to Allanya to work as slaves in the tourist industry, if we are not turned into kebabs straight away, that is :rolleyes:

Because they're Arabs and Muslims???

The people that live in Turkey are not Arab.

Sure, as soon as Turkey enters the EU, we will all be sent to Allanya to work as slaves in the tourist industry, if we are not turned into kebabs straight away, that is :rolleyes:

No, they'll just flood muslims in from the ME.

Ok, I'm done here. I know a culture is seriously fucked in the head if it believes KFC is worse than death or enslavement.

With this attitude, Europe NEEDS to get it's ass kicked. And I hope the US stays the hell out this time.Heh? Wasn't the US one of the last countries to get rid of slavery and correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Turkey no longer have the death penalty while the US does?

No, they'll just flood muslims in from the ME.

And the difference to now is what exactly? As far as I know, most immigrants into the EU today are from the Middle East.

No, they'll just flood muslims in from the ME.
Because Turkey is SOOO popular that their only real friend in the ME is Israel?

Ok, I'm done here. I know a culture is seriously fucked in the head if it believes KFC is worse than death or enslavement.

With this attitude, Europe NEEDS to get it's ass kicked. And I hope the US stays the hell out this time.

Yes. With Turkey's entry into the Eu (Which, of course, isn't pre-ordained at all...), the Muslim's plan will be complete. Europe will instantly fall to a Muslim theocracy - we'll all be made to pray to Mecca five times a day, women made to wear veils....disaster!

Please, give it up. Turkey's entrance into the EU is not a sign of Muslim attempts at dominance of Europe.

No, they'll just flood muslims in from the ME.

Because Muslim immigrants are obviously a bad thing...

Please, give it up. Turkey's entrance into the EU is not a sign of Muslim attempts at dominance of Europe.

They don't need to attempt it. It's inevitable. It's just a question of whether people will fight it.

The correct answer is fuck no. I ain't fighting shit.

They don't need to attempt it. It's inevitable. It's just a question of whether people will fight it.

The correct answer is fuck no. I ain't fighting shit.

Yes...the obviously evil Muslim's are going to destroy our entire culture. How, exactly?

Well, the difference between the two is that Turkey is massive. I mean, how can Turkey have so much power in Europe? Nobody thinks of Turkey when they think of Europe.

Man, if Turkey gets in, I want Russia in, so somebody can trump Turkey.


I prefer thousand times Turkey than Russia, at least they bulding a laic democracy in the last century, not destroying after ten years. Thay have learned a hard lesson, they are no more an empire, not like Putin's Russia

Yes...the obviously evil Muslim's are going to destroy our entire culture. How, exactly?

Immigration and birthrates.

Immigration and birthrates.

Ingenious plan.
And your suggestion to fight it would be to prevent women from having jobs so they can fulfill their true destiny as breeding machines again, thus evening out the numbers for the Endkampf?

While I'm normally quite liberal on these things, I can only say "Hell no!" to Turkey joining the EU! :sniper:
They have far too much issues that still need to be resolved first, like ouvert police brutality, torture in prisons is very common, treating their women like dirt etc. Leaving them into the EU like this would mean that the EU does *approve* of all this! :mad:

Besides, strictly geographically speaking, the Turkey is *not* a part of Europe. Europe only goes as far as Greece, Bulgaria and Rumania in that corner. Turkey is a part of Asia.

If the EU is going to take Turkey, then why not take Iran and Iraq as well? They're bordering on the Turkey, so if they can twist the Europe term to include Turkey, they can easily twist it to include Iran and Iraq as well, and they're not that different from Turkey either :rolleyes:

Dude, they're not European. They tried to KILL us. That doesn't make them European.

But by your logic, let's let in Mongolia! They kicked everyone's ass!

They tried to CONQUER us, as we tried to conquer them. As almost every single country in Europe.

I disagree. Turkey is muslim, poor and agriculture-based. Europe is rich, Christian and industry-based.Turkey is actually relatively well-off, and is a liberal, secularised state. Admission to the EU would make it even more wealthy. Plus, power is measured by population, making it the equal second most powerful country after Germany, equal with France and similiar to Italy and the UK.

The EU isn't about geography. It's about inclusion. If Iran wanted to join the EU, it would probably be turned down because of it's outright disagreement with the EU3 over it's nuclear plans. If the US wanted to join, more power to them. Neither do though, so it's academic.

And you know what i'm sick of?

I'm sick of ignorant people like Kievan-Prussia saying that all muslums are "evil" and "terrorists". If he picked up a book and maybe talked to some muslums, he would see that President Bush and all those other national leaders that are characterising the muslums in a bad way are lying. Back in HS, roughly 20% of the students at the school were muslum, and they arn't how Kievan-Prussia portrays them. People have a right to practice whatever religion they wish, but with people like Kievan-Prussia, the muslums are afraid to practice their religion in public because they are scared that they will get assaulted by people like Kievan-Prussia.



Enough with the hate already!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10377550&postcount=111 Well, there goes your islamofascist pipedream, pinko.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10377558&postcount=114 So my sources aren't good enough for you, pinko?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10377579&postcount=117 www.wikipedia.com, retard.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10377606&postcount=126 Freaking Europeans, too lazy to find your own damn links. No wonder you needed guest workers, lazy freaks.

You know what? take a two day vacation. Perhaps then you can engage in civil debate.

The millions of Turks in Germany mix well with Europeans, generally. A lot better than most of the Polish, actually. I don't see why that would change at all when Turkey becomes an EU member.
.

Evidence for this? I've known a fair few Polish people, a fair few Turkish people and have visited Turkey a few times.

No one group gets on well more or less well than the other group in my experience.

As for Turkey joining the EU ... I'm a bit nervous about it.

There's that huge population issue. The Turks would automatically have a lot of political power in the EU. Then there's all that agricultural subsidy issue to resolve (easily done in my view, scrap all agri-subsidies. Not that that's going to happen tho'). Then there's that business with Cyprus. Can't have one EU member state not recognising another.

As far as the human rights issues go - that is resolvable in time.

If Turkey joins the EU it'll have to conform to European law. This will speed the process of secularisation and modernisation no end so I say go for it.

It will also make it harder for radical muslims in the middle east to talk about Europe as the enemy if we include Muslim countries.

Evidence for this? I've known a fair few Polish people, a fair few Turkish people and have visited Turkey a few times.

No one group gets on well more or less well than the other group in my experience.

Not much evidence, really. Mostly personal experience from my home town in Germany...


As for Turkey joining the EU ... I'm a bit nervous about it.

There's that huge population issue. The Turks would automatically have a lot of political power in the EU. Then there's all that agricultural subsidy issue to resolve (easily done in my view, scrap all agri-subsidies. Not that that's going to happen tho'). Then there's that business with Cyprus. Can't have one EU member state not recognising another.

As far as the human rights issues go - that is resolvable in time.

I'd be nervous, too, if they were to join tomorrow. At the moment however, they are merely a candidate, and I don't think they will join before 2015. That's a lot of time, but then again, they have to meet a lot of requirements, regarding their economy, regarding legislation and regarding their human rights issues. If they want to join, they'll have to settle the argument about Cyprus, too.

I disagree. Turkey is muslim, poor and agriculture-based. Europe is rich, Christian and industry-based.

So THAT'S how we segregate the list of "Who should be in the E.U and who shouldn't" :rolleyes:

Well, Turkey isn't a European nation and the EU is supposed to be a union for Europe, so it really doesn't make much sense, I suppose.

The people that live in Turkey are not Arab.I know, they're Turkish. I'm just messing K-P around. ;)

Yes, eventually. At present, there are still issues in regard to civil rights, political and religious freedom in Turkey that need to be addressed. Economic reforms also need to be implemented and inflation tamed as well, since the ECB cannot adjust its monetary policy sharp enough to stop Turkish inflation without causing economic harm to other members.

Furthemore, the Cypriot situation needs to be settled. Once Turkey shows itself capable of committing 100% to the EU standards (and having met the prerequisites) it should be allowed in. Nevertheless, under no circumstances should the rules be relaxed; the EU has to ensure its standards are applied fairly.

However, the EU does need to broaden its horizons as they become the model for international cooperation in the world; a Turkey in the EU with guaranteed civil, political, and religious freedoms as well as a modern economy would provide a valuable voice for change in the Middle East. Hopefully, it will mark the beginning of an intercontinental union that will bring change and democratization to the entire region.

I think it would be a mistake to ever let a muslim country into the EU, particularly one as big as Turkey. I accept that Turkey is probably the most secular of any muslim country, but it still doesn't alter the fact that they're muslim. If they were allowed into the EU it would result in unrestricted Turkish immigration and accelerate the islamisation of Europe. As somebody said earlier in this topic, it's Bin Laden's Trojan horse.

I also think we need to stop thinking that Turkey is some model secular country that would fit in perfectly with Europe. The only thing that's European about Turkey is the country's secular elite in institutions such as the military. I'd hardly class a bunch of Anatolian peasants as European. And look at their democratically elected prime minister country. Erdogan himself has a past in islamist poltiics. Erdogan's Justice and Development Party is islamist, and just masquerades as a moderate democratic party to pacify the secular elite. Ironically, the EU wants to reduce the poltical influence of this secular elite (Particularly in the military) as a condition of entry!

If that doesn't work for you, I have other reasons why we shouldn't let them in. They're poor and underdeveloped, with their industries (Particularly agriculture) requiring huge amounts of our money to be thrown at them. Their closeness to the US would result in more pressure on our foreign policy decisions to be taken in Washington. They refuse diplomatic recognition to Cyprus, an EU member state. And most importantly of all, the majority of people in Europe are against it, according to the Eurobarmeter (http://europa.eu.int/comm/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb63/eb63.4_en_first.pdf) (Warning: PDF document)

I think it would be a mistake to ever let a muslim country into the EU, particularly one as big as Turkey. I accept that Turkey is probably the most secular of any muslim country, but it still doesn't alter the fact that they're muslim. If they were allowed into the EU it would result in unrestricted Turkish immigration and accelerate the islamisation of Europe. As somebody said earlier in this topic, it's Bin Laden's Trojan horse.

I also think we need to stop thinking that Turkey is some model secular country that would fit in perfectly with Europe. The only thing that's European about Turkey is the country's secular elite in institutions such as the military. I'd hardly class a bunch of Anatolian peasants as European. And look at their democratically elected prime minister country. Erdogan himself has a past in islamist poltiics. Erdogan's Justice and Development Party is islamist, and just masquerades as a moderate democratic party to pacify the secular elite. Ironically, the EU wants to reduce the poltical influence of this secular elite (Particularly in the military) as a condition of entry!

If that doesn't work for you, I have other reasons why we shouldn't let them in. They're poor and underdeveloped, with their industries (Particularly agriculture) requiring huge amounts of our money to be thrown at them. Their closeness to the US would result in more pressure on our foreign policy decisions to be taken in Washington. They refuse diplomatic recognition to Cyprus, an EU member state. And most importantly of all, the majority of people in Europe are against it, according to the Eurobarmeter (http://europa.eu.int/comm/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb63/eb63.4_en_first.pdf) (Warning: PDF document)

Quite persistent aren't you. Trawl back over the past 12 pages to find responses to your points- because its doubtful people will want to start repeating themselves again.

Do you know what?

I think the Turks should be kicked into E.U if they really want, beside we also have Switzerland, Norway and a couple of East europe states who not is!

I think any state just with 1 meter European ground should be offered the cance!

Think a bout let Turkey join: They are in Asia, and if other Asian Nations joins, E.U will suddenly stand stronger!

The reason i belive the REAL politicans not let them in is shortly: Rascisme!

All the Christians in Europe if afraid of the Islamic world!

HELP A BETTER WORLD: LET TURKEY JOIN!

why dont the americans let turkey join NAFTA?

What? The North American Free Trade Agreement? Why would they want to? :confused:

As long as Turkey meets all the admission criteria, I see no problem whatsoever with them joining the EU. In fact, I wouldn't see a problem if Morocco, Tunisia or even countries ever further away from Europe would join the EU (as long as they are democratic, fairly* prosperous nations meeting all the necessary criteria, of course). If another person shares all my ideals and beliefs, I don't care if they're Moslems, Christians, Atheists, Whites, Arabs or Blacks.

* It would be unrealistic to expect for them to be more prosperous than Spain or Portugal were in the beginning. They only have to be headed in the good direction.

I don't think Turkey should be allowed in because it doesn't satisfy the Copenhagen Criteria. It's really that simple. It has nothing to do with being Muslim or its debatable status as a European country.

I don't think Turkey should be allowed in because it doesn't satisfy the Copenhagen Criteria. It's really that simple. It has nothing to do with being Muslim or its debatable status as a European country.

It's been said before, but I'll say it again:
Hardly anybody would argue for them to be able to join tomorrow. Everybody so far agreed that they first have to meet the admission criteria, and it is generally estimated that that might be the case by 2015.

It's been said before, but I'll say it again:
Hardly anybody would argue for them to be able to join tomorrow. Everybody so far agreed that they first have to meet the admission criteria, and it is generally estimated that that might be the case by 2015.
How can such progression even be estimated? Sounds like a crapshoot to me. I will say that I think Turkey has done an awesome job so far of pushing forward in the necessary areas for the sake of EU accession talks, and I also think that preventing such talks would be a mistake, as it would set back the continued development of Turkey. I just hope they go on for a long while, until such time as Turkey actually *has* met the Copenhagen Criteria, and not just stop at some magically rendered date such as 2015.

How can such progression even be estimated? Sounds like a crapshoot to me. I will say that I think Turkey has done an awesome job so far of pushing forward in the necessary areas for the sake of EU accession talks, and I also think that preventing such talks would be a mistake, as it would set back the continued development of Turkey. I just hope they go on for a long while, until such time as Turkey actually *has* met the Copenhagen Criteria, and not just stop at some magically rendered date such as 2015.

It's not going to stop there. This is just the date estimated by the EU comission. It's not a fixed date, more of a guideline... "We think you can make it by 2015, if you keep that pace up". Think of it as positive encouragement.

What? The North American Free Trade Agreement? Why would they want to? :confused:
To proof that NAFTA isn't just an X-tians only club.:rolleyes: The same argument that the twit Bush used to get the non-European Turks into the EU.
The how maniests thread is this about this anyway? As always I naturally voted no.

So THAT'S how we segregate the list of "Who should be in the E.U and who shouldn't" :rolleyes:
It would be good if they did it like that.

Because Muslim immigrants are obviously a bad thing...
Well they are.

Being involved in a land war in Europe actually seems to be a prerequisite of EU membership
Let's invite Mongolia then.

So you mean muslim can't "integrate" with europeans??? Yeah, look at Albania and Bosnia, both european countries with huge muslim population!!! Albania with muslim majority. Can't integrate with europe? you're an idiot.
Yeah. Let's look what happened in "well integrated" Bosnia.

Greenland is in the Union, and if you check a map, that gap is even bigger. :rolleyes:

Nope. Greenland never joined the EU. It left a predecessor polity, the EEC, back in 1985.

Are you done with the one-liners yet?
You see, we are all speechlessly admiring your eloquence, logic, and well-researched arguments...

Yeah. Let's look what happened in "well integrated" Bosnia.

The Christians contribute to it too.

Well they are.

Why would that be? Don't tell me, Muslim immigrants will corrupt our cultures or somesuch racist rubbish...

The millions of Turks in Germany mix well with Europeans, generally.

When was the last time you were in Germany?

The Christians contribute to it too.
I didn't say they didn't. But thats what you will get in the long run.

Why would that be? Don't tell me, Muslim immigrants will corrupt our cultures or somesuch racist rubbish...
Well, they obviously do corrupt the culture. But the real kicker of course is the immenent threat they represent to us.

Are you done with the one-liners yet?
You see, we are all speechlessly admiring your eloquence, logic, and well-researched arguments...
I've read your eloquent, logical, and well-researched arguments. Theres realy no need for you to use sarcasm,

Well, they obviously do corrupt the culture. But the real kicker of course is the immenent threat they represent to us.

Of course they do. I mean, they all obviously hate the West and wish to destroy it by infiltrating us with their vile religion. They corrupt no more or less than any other culture. What imminent threat? There may be extremists who threaten the West, but the majority of all Muslims, like the majority of all cultures, are peaceful and don't want to hurt us or corrupt us.

When was the last time you were in Germany?

Last week.

Of course they do. I mean, they all obviously hate the West and wish to destroy it by infiltrating us with their vile religion. They corrupt no more or less than any other culture. What imminent threat? There may be extremists who threaten the West, but the majority of all Muslims, like the majority of all cultures, are peaceful and don't want to hurt us or corrupt us.
Realy? I don't remember any muslim mass demonstrations against terrorism after Paris, Madrid, London, Van Gogh. In either the Muslim world or in Europe.
Or against honor killings and such. I take the silence of the muslims here at home and abroad as a sign that they silently agree with it. Even if they don't want to say it out loud.

Last week.
And where exactly did you see proof of this?
The millions of Turks in Germany mix well with Europeans, generally.

Why would that be? Don't tell me, Muslim immigrants will corrupt our cultures or somesuch racist rubbish...
Exactly. Anyone claiming that they don't want Muslims 'taking over Europe' should ask themselves which Europe they're talking about.
Muslims have been in Europe for almost 1000 years (Spain, anyone?)

And where exactly did you see proof of this?
The millions of Turks in Germany mix well with Europeans, generally.

Berlin. They are better integrated than most foreigners here in Ireland...

Exactly. Anyone claiming that they don't want Muslims 'taking over Europe' should ask themselves which Europe they're talking about.
Muslims have been in Europe for almost 1000 years (Spain, anyone?)
Ah yes. They came in peace to enlighten the poor Spaniards. (No wait.... They came as conquerers. Oh yeah. The Franks beat them back at Poitiers. And after centuries of bloody struggle the Iberian kingdoms finally kicked them out in 1492 as well. Anyone?)

Berlin. They are better integrated than most foreigners here in Ireland...
Well, I believe it for Ireland. As Ireland didn't have all that many immigrants until the last 15-20 years.

Ah yes. They came in peace to enlighten the poor Spaniards. (No wait.... They came as conquerers. Oh yeah. The Franks beat them back at Poitiers. And after centuries of bloody struggle the Iberian kingdoms finally kicked them out in 1492 as well. Anyone?)
Ah yes, I forgot... they were all set to fight the peace-loving peoples of Europe. Sorry. My bad :rolleyes:

Ah yes, I forgot... they were all set to fight the peace-loving peoples of Europe. Sorry. My bad :rolleyes:
Actually they were. You are forgiven.

Actually they were. You are forgiven.
Meh. This will lead us nowhere.
Let's just say you live in your world I live in mine.
Too bad they're this incompatible.

I for one think any objections to Turkey joining the EU on grounds of cultural/social/'racial' differences are unacceptable in my eyes.

But since I'm not a citizen of an EU-country anyway, who am I to speak?

Meh. This will lead us nowhere.
Let's just say you live in your world I live in mine.
Too bad they're this incompatible.
Yeah. Not everyone is able to feel joy while hordes of muslims head their way.

Muslims have been in Europe for almost 1000 years (Spain, anyone?)
Yes, but at least when the christians regained Spain they ahd the good sense to get rid of the muslims. The last thing Europe needs is to reverse the good work that was done in the reconquista and give muslims another foothold in Europe.

Yeah. Not everyone is able to feel joy while hordes of muslims head their way.

Hah! Hordes of Muslims...

I'm betting 99% of them are peaceful, non-violent people who want nothing more than to co-exist peacefully. The remaining 1% will do what they will, but there won't be any invasion or Western downfall you seem so paranoid about

Yeah. Not everyone is able to feel joy while hordes of muslims head their way.
Dear lord, this is even worse than I thought... If I didn't know any better I'd think you were Islamophobic :eek:

Well, I believe it for Ireland. As Ireland didn't have all that many immigrants until the last 15-20 years.

And try and get a decent Doener Kebab over here... eating one in Berlin was heavenly bliss indeed :D

Yes, but at least when the christians regained Spain they ahd the good sense to get rid of the muslims. The last thing Europe needs is to reverse the good work that was done in the reconquista and give muslims another foothold in Europe.
Wait, just for the record...
Muslims killing Christians = 'bad'
Christians killing Muslims = 'good work'

Besides the fact that this was a while back and not exactly ever muslim in Europe has been wanting to take over the continent by force, does this strike anyone else as a little bit biased?

Hah! Hordes of Muslims...

I'm betting 99% of them are peaceful, non-violent people who want nothing more than to co-exist peacefully. The remaining 1% will do what they will, but there won't be any invasion or Western downfall you seem so paranoid about
And I bet that if the 1% starts bombing and murdering, that the majority of those 99%, will not react in the same manner as muslims everywhere reactet to a bunch of cartoons to stop the 99%.

Dear lord, this is even worse than I thought... If I didn't know any better I'd think you were Islamophobic :eek:
You think? :confused: Hmmm....I guess reality finally caught up with me.

Wait, just for the record...
Muslims killing Christians = 'bad'
Christians killing Muslims = 'good work'

Besides the fact that this was a while back and not exactly ever muslim in Europe has been wanting to take over the continent by force, does this strike anyone else as a little bit biased?
But your comment about them beeing here for over 1000 years so they must be peacefull is fully objective right?

If we invite in Turkey now we can pussy around with semi-membership status (ie they don't get their full quota of votes and then wait for a large chunk of the population to emigrate before we give them full status), then we pay them loads of CAP so we can pressure Poland and France to give up the damn policy (by hitting them in the pocket), and then fine Turkey absurd amounts for violating the European Convention on Human Rights to recoup all the CAP we paid to them. Everyone wins! And my everyone I kinda only mean Germany and the UK.

You think? :confused: Hmmm....I guess reality finally caught up with me.
Nah, not reality... that we construe ourselves to our liking.... but maybe the dreadful world of PC? :p

Turkey is too underdeveloped for addmission to europe, and would drag the rest down with it. If the EU wants to expand any further - which it shouldn't - it should admit canada, or australia, or japan or something. Hell, if it has to pick somewhere outside the first world, argentina would be a much better choice than turkey.

(And before people start, there are bits of the EU all over the globe).

But your comment about them beeing here for over 1000 years so they must be peacefull is fully objective right?Does it matter? They must have squatters' rights for clinging on for all that time.

Does it matter? They must have squatters' rights for clinging on for all that time.
Actually the Spaniards kicked them all out eventually.

But your comment about them beeing here for over 1000 years so they must be peacefull is fully objective right?
I never said they were peaceful I merely stated they were no more un-peaceful than their European counterpart was.
The argument I originally intended to counter was not 'we won't let them in because they'll attack us' but 'we won't let them in because of cultural differences'.

(And before people start, there are bits of the EU all over the globe).I'm not so sure about that. I know many EU countries have overseas territories and dependencies, but I'm not sure if citizen's of those islands (and I believe they're all islands).

I never said they were peaceful I merely stated they were no more un-peaceful than their European counterpart was.
The argument I originally intended to counter was not 'we won't let them in because they'll attack us' but 'we won't let them in because of cultural differences'.
Well, cultural differences mustn't be underestimated either. Or labeled tabu just because it's the PC thing to do.

Well, cultural differences mustn't be underestimated either.
No, but they shouldn't play a major part in the decision of admission to a political Union.

edit: and it should definitely not be a taboo!

No, but they shouldn't play a major part in the decision of admission to a political Union.
Actually they should as long as free movement of people is part of the unions policy. How compatible is the Islamic inprinted culture with the Christian one. And last but not least the feeling of the people, not the Turks, should not be ignored either.
EDIT: And I don't mean how secular is the state.

Actually the Spaniards kicked them all out eventually.And a good thing too! We all know what those Moors are like. Damn you Othello! And good on Iago for bringing about the downfall of that fiendish Moor! *ahem* c.c

By 2050 most of the rest of Europe will be predominantly muslim anyways, if you look how Islam is growing. Might as well get a headstart.

Actually they should as long as free movement of people is part of the unions policy. How compatible is the Islamic inprinted culture with the Christian one. And last but not least the feeling of the people, not the Turks, should not be ignored either.
What I'm trying to say is that Europe has never been a homogenic space. The Islamic culture has already left traces all over Europe (this is where Spain comes in yet again).
Why should say, Atheist be allowed to travel freely when Muslims aren't? It's not a question of if Islamic culture is compatible with the Christian one, both of them are part of a European identity already.
If you don't want Turkey in the Union for economic reasons, there's not much I can do to convince you of the opposite.
But cultural prejudices just won't do.

I'm not so sure about that. I know many EU countries have overseas territories and dependencies, but I'm not sure if citizen's of those islands (and I believe they're all islands).

For the french it's a mix. Overseas departments, like french guyana, are identical in status to metropolitan departments. The territorial collectives are virtually the same. The territories have local autonomy, it's still french citizens.

The british have a similar mix. I am not sure about the dutch. In any event, there are still places all over the globe that have EU citizens.

By 2050 most of the rest of Europe will be predominantly muslim anyways, if you look how Islam is growing. Might as well get a headstart.
Err. Right. You do realize that we're already past the year 2000, right?

I'm not so sure about that. I know many EU countries have overseas territories and dependencies, but I'm not sure if citizen's of those islands (and I believe they're all islands).Whoops, I got it wrong.

from - http://europa.eu.int/comm/regional_policy/themes/rup_en.htm

"The European Union includes a number of territories which although geographically distant are close in terms of the exercise of rights and obligations, and very important in terms of territorial integrity.

They are the four French Overseas Departments - Guadeloupe, French Guiana, Martinique and Réunion -, the Spanish Autonomous Community of the Canary Islands and the Portuguese Autonomous Regions of the Azores and Madeira."

What I'm trying to say is that Europe has never been a homogenic space.
As long as you don't start about how the Ostrogoths came from Asia.

The Islamic culture has already left traces all over Europe (this is where Spain comes in yet again).
Why should say, Atheist be allowed to travel freely when Muslims aren't? It's not a question of if Islamic culture is compatible with the Christian one, both of them are part of a European identity already.
Because Islamic values and Western ones will clash. They do everyday on a relative small scale so far. But with an unwanted country like Turkey entering, choosing the side of the muslims, the scale of clashes would increase untill it blows up. And the only one happy about that would be the US.

If you don't want Turkey in the Union for economic reasons, there's not much I can do to convince you of the opposite.
But cultural prejudices just won't do.
I've given you my reasons. And my reasons are both economic as well as cultural.

The Islamic culture has already left traces all over Europe (this is where Spain comes in yet again).
Why should say, Atheist be allowed to travel freely when Muslims aren't? It's not a question of if Islamic culture is compatible with the Christian one, both of them are part of a European identity already.

Christianity is a European institution. The only reason Islam has a part in "European" identity is because it bulled its way onto the continent by conquest via Spain, Italy and Greece and Anatolia (which was also inhabited by European peoples before the Turks came). European values and Islamic values have virtually nothing in common because they have been opposing forces since Mohammed's rise to power.

As long as you don't start about how the Ostrogoths came from Asia.
I won't. Didn't even cross my mind at all. And that is saying something :D

Because Islamic values and Western ones will clash. They do everyday on a relative small scale so far. But with an unwanted country like Turkey entering, choosing the side of the muslims, the scale of clashes would increase untill it blows up. And the only one happy about that would be the US.

There is a need for cultural exchange if we want to keep evolving. We can't keep all that's different and that could possibly change our perception of the world on the outside.

There is already a significant percentage of Turks in Germany and Switzerland without any problematic clashes that I'm aware of.
As an example... a couple of years back there was a similar problem in Switzerland, when lots of Italians went there for seasonal work and eventually many of them stayed. Yes, yes, you'll want to say that with Italy it's not the same because... But for back then there was an imporant cultural difference, the Swiss were somewhat reluctant to accept the foreigners in such great numbers (similar to the situation of Turks in Western Europe today). Nowadays no one would argue Italians are any less 'valued' on the social scale than the Swiss themselves.

There will be a certain period of adjustment but it won't be half as bad as some people will have you believe and there will be no explosion.


I've given you my reasons. And my reasons are both economic as well as cultural.

And I've given you my point of view. Maybe I'm too naive, definitely too idealistic, but I just can't help it :)

Christianity is a European institution. The only reason Islam has a part in "European" identity is because it bulled its way onto the continent by conquest via Spain, Italy and Greece and Anatolia (which was also inhabited by European peoples before the Turks came). European values and Islamic values have virtually nothing in common because they have been opposing forces since Mohammed's rise to power.I thought Christianity was a Christian institution and that Britian managed to export most of their religious wackos... sorry, let's be PC... religious zealots to the American colonies before they realised what our fiendish plans were.

Meh, most of organised Christianity is just the fragments from the era of the divine right of Kings.

There is a need for cultural exchange if we want to keep evolving.

Sometimes the mixing of cultures can be beneficial. If one culture is inferior to another, then it is not.

And it is, believe it or not, for a culture to be crap. What possible benefit could come from mixing Western and, say Aztec culture? Sure, cars and hospitals might raise the bar for the Aztecs, but on the flipside the ritual sacrifices, idolatry, teeth filing and shaping of skulls into bizzare shapes by strapping rocks onto babies' heads is going to significantly dilute the quality of culture for the West, in much the same way that mixing Pol Pot-style Cambodian culture with modern Japanese culture would help the one and hurt the other.

There is already a significant percentage of Turks in Germany and Switzerland without any problematic clashes that I'm aware of.

Talk to some Germans.

As an example... a couple of years back there was a similar problem in Switzerland, when lots of Italians went there for seasonal work and eventually many of them stayed. Yes, yes, you'll want to say that with Italy it's not the same because... But for back then there was an imporant cultural difference, the Swiss were somewhat reluctant to accept the foreigners in such great numbers (similar to the situation of Turks in Western Europe today). Nowadays no one would argue Italians are any less 'valued' on the social scale than the Swiss themselves.

It is different, because the Swiss and Italians share a common culture, way of life and (I hate to say it) racial type.

There will be a certain period of adjustment but it won't be half as bad as some people will have you believe and there will be no explosion.

There have been explosions (often literally) periodically in Europe. They are increasing in scale and worsening in severity. How can you expect anyone affected by this to believe it's all going to suddenly slacken off?

Sometimes the mixing of cultures can be beneficial. If one culture is inferior to another, then it is not.
... We're coming from very different backgrounds here... I firmly believe no culture is inferior to any other. (Yes, I am serious).

See, I take our understanding of what's 'advanced' to be but one possibility of an infinite choice of realities.
It all depends on how you measure progress, on what criteria you use to determine what 'advanced' means.
What good would a car have been to the Aztecs, to use your example?
No need for a car, they didn't have gas stations nor did they have streets fit for our cars.

Personally I don't think the way European societies chose in their development are something to follow suit.

There have been explosions (often literally) periodically in Europe. They are increasing in scale and worsening in severity. How can you expect anyone affected by this to believe it's all going to suddenly slacken off?Meh, the cultures will eventually mix or become tolerant of each other, just like the Protestants and Catholics have. The animosity between those groups used to be huge. It doesn't really matter how different someone is, just that they are. Some of the more violent clashes can be between groups of close similarity. Such as: Socialists, Muslims (Shia and Sunni), Christians (as above), civil wars and family feuds.

... We're coming from very different backgrounds here... I firmly believe no culture is inferior to any other. (Yes, I am serious).
OK, I'll use your example of the Aztecs. They regularly practiced human sacrifice. Is a culture like that really equal to ours?

OK, I'll use your example of the Aztecs. They regularly practiced human sacrifice. Is a culture like that really equal to ours?
At that time we were burning witches all over the place, weren't we?

It is different, because the Swiss and Italians share a common culture, way of life and (I hate to say it) racial type.

It would be appreciated if you could state, as you understand it, the definition of "racial type". If possible, qualify the specific phenotypic distinctions between the Turks of Anatolia and the "European race", and explain their significance in the context of Turkish E.U. admission.

At that time we were burning witches all over the place, weren't we?
Yes, but witch burnings were never as widespread, or as much of an ingrained part of the culture among christians as human sacrifice was among the Aztecs. And regarding your analogy with cars, of course a car would be useless among the Aztecs. But the Aztecs stagnated and never got to the point where they were capable of creating soemthing as complex as a car. What does that tell you about their culture?

But the Aztecs stagnated and never got to the point where they were capable of creating soemthing as complex as a car. What does that tell you about their culture?

In your estimation, were any peoples, in the time of the Aztec Empire, capable of "creating something as complex as a car"? Are you certain that, in the absence of Old World interference, the Aztecs would never have been able to do so?

Yes, but witch burnings were never as widespread, or as much of an ingrained part of the culture among christians as human sacrifice was among the Aztecs. And regarding your analogy with cars, of course a car would be useless among the Aztecs. But the Aztecs stagnated and never got to the point where they were capable of creating soemthing as complex as a car. What does that tell you about their culture?

Witchcraft as an example. We're stupid enough to kill ourselves with our oh so glorious inventions, how many people die in traffic accidents? homicide?

The whole car/Aztec thing wasn't my idea to begin with, as you're insinuating.
...but on a little side note... why do you think that creating 'something as complex as a car' is a sign of a developed culture? Developed according to Western European thinking, yes, but Europe isn't precisely a role model of perfect societies, is it?

Witchcraft as an example. We're stupid enough to kill ourselves with our oh so glorious inventions, how many people die in traffic accidents? homicide?

The whole car/Aztec thing wasn't my idea to begin with, as you're insinuating.
...but on a little side note... why do you think that creating 'something as complex as a car' is a sign of a developed culture? Developed according to Western European thinking, yes, but Europe isn't precisely a role model of perfect societies, is it?
The car isn't perfect, but the invention of the combustion engine has revolutionised society. It's an example of the way western society has changed and adapted to better itself. Now it might be debateable as to wether the car's a good thing, but there are some western innovations that are undisputeabley good such as modern medicine and sanitation. We invented things like this and left behind a lot of the bad things like witch burnings, while the Aztecs would still be the same today if it wasn't for the Spanish. That's what makes us culturally superior, the ability to better ourselves.

The car isn't perfect, but the invention of the combustion engine has revolutionised society. It's an example of the way western society has changed and adapted to better itself. Now it might be debateable as to wether the car's a good thing, but there are some western innovations that are undisputeabley good such as modern medicine and sanitation. We invented things like this and left behind a lot of the bad things like witch burnings, while the Aztecs would still be the same today if it wasn't for the Spanish. That's what makes us culturally superior, the ability to better ourselves.
Wait, what? Do you really believe someone woke up one day and thought 'hey, I think it'd be for the better if we just got rid of [insert random cultural pattern]', and then everyone was all of a sudden convinced that this was the right path to go and at once (and more imporantly all together) decided to change their ways? Our culture as we know it today is the way it is because of innumberable choices that were made in the past I don't know how many years. Many of them were in fact very bad ideas but they brought us where we are today.
Does that make our culture superior to others?
Do you think our culture is a desirable one?
I believe there are many negative aspects in our culture, the way we treat the elderly, the sick, the disabled to cite an example.
To me this is much more important than the newest technology of robot dogs for instance.
I think we got our priorities mixed up and unfortunately we're not about to set that right...

Wait, what? Do you really believe someone woke up one day and thought 'hey, I think it'd be for the better if we just got rid of [insert random cultural pattern]', and then everyone was all of a sudden convinced that this was the right path to go and at once (and more imporantly all together) decided to change their ways? Our culture as we know it today is the way it is because of innumberable choices that were made in the past I don't know how many years. Many of them were in fact very bad ideas but they brought us where we are today.
Does that make our culture superior to others?
Do you think our culture is a desirable one?
I believe there are many negative aspects in our culture, the way we treat the elderly, the sick, the disabled to cite an example.
To me this is much more important than the newest technology of robot dogs for instance.
I think we got our priorities mixed up and unfortunately we're not about to set that right...
You're putting words into my mouth here. I realise that major cultural changes never happened overnight and we the result of centuries of change, often leading to conflict. And I certainly don't think that our culture is perfect, far from it. There are plenty of things I would like to change about us. But the fact is we have mostly changed to better ourselves, you can't tell me that we're not in a much better situation now than we were hundreds of years ago. Now I dunno about you but I prefer life in the west, with both the good and the bad parts, to the way life would be as an Aztec.

...but on a little side note... why do you think that creating 'something as complex as a car' is a sign of a developed culture? Developed according to Western European thinking, yes, but Europe isn't precisely a role model of perfect societies, is it?

The main problem with using the Aztecs is that they literally contributed nothing of value to the technological development of Mesoamerica.

Everything they had, they looted from the cultures they conquered; in most cases they actually regressed socially compared to what had existed before.

Now I dunno about you but I prefer life in the west, with both the good and the bad parts, to the way life would be as an Aztec.

Actually, life as an Aztec would be pretty sweet. now life as one of their subjugated neighbouring tribes would suck ass, but meh.

On a side note: How the hell is this thread still being kept alive? And why?!

On a side note: How the hell is this thread still being kept alive? And why?!
Due to people like me who end up going off topic! But anyway, I'm off now so if anybody wants to shove it back on topic they're welcome. :D

This may save some energy:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=7192856#post7192856

I disagree. Turkey is muslim, poor and agriculture-based. Europe is rich, Christian and industry-based.

Turkey is not as poor as people think

France's economy is 20% agriculture based

Just because Turkey is Muslim is no reason to keep it out. Besides, Europe is not defined by religion.

Do you think Turkey should be in let into the EU?

Personally, I think it's a terrible idea. If it happens, Turkey, a non-European nation, will be the most powerful nation in the EU.


What!? That's stupid. Turkey is an incredibly poor nation. The only two arguements against them joining is that it would hurt the EU's economy and it's not a European nation.

Turkey has a major oil pipe lin being built right through it. Most of Europe has a huge shortage of oil and although they are the most progressive nations in researching other methods of fuel, this new oil would help lessen the burdain of such high oil prices.

So what if Turkey isn't Eurpean. The fact of the matter is that the EU is still centered in Europe. And the EU can use all the help it can get. The two fastest growing ecenomies in the world right now and the EU and China are both buying huge amounts of the American market and right now, China looks like they may simply annex us in the next ten years at most. I would very much like to have my nation under a blue flag with a circle of yellow stars then a red flag with a couple stars in the top left corner, regardless of my support for communism.

Turkey is not as poor as people think

France's economy is 20% agriculture based

Just because Turkey is Muslim is no reason to keep it out. Besides, Europe is not defined by religion.



I agree, I was all around Germany and a huge portion of their nation is dedicated to farming. If you go almost anywhere there you would be able to see tons of farmland. Pluss the EU can help keep Al-Quida out of Turkey.

What!? That's stupid. Turkey is an incredibly poor nation. The only two arguements against them joining is that it would hurt the EU's economy and it's not a European nation.



I think the main arguements against Turkey are:

1- It's not a European nation
2- It's a Muslim nation
3- It'll hurt the EU's Economy
4- It's got a bad record of human rights.

In regards 1- Turkey has been considered both a European state, and a Muslim state in the past. For example, at the begining of the twentieth centuary it was commonly called "The sick man of Europe". In the late Middle ages it was definately a Middle Eastern, Muslim country, and did try to conquer Europe a couple of times.

2- Turkey has a mostly Muslim population. Yep. Who cares?

3- It'll hurt the EU's Economy. Probably, but not as much as it might have done, since (I think) the EU's policy of agricultural subsidies is being scrapped. Anyway, when Ireland was accepted into the EU it was considered a second world country, and an economic disaster. Now it's one of the most prosperous nations on the planet.

4- Human rights. This is the one big objection I have to Turkey joining the EU. It needs to do some SERIOUS work on areas like freedom of speech, torture and police brutality, to name but a few, before they should be let into the EU.

Turkey is a secular state by the power of the military. Kemal Mustapha made a secular state but the only way to make sure it would stay that way was by giving the army special powers.
Whenever a muslim party comes to power and is a bit too radical, the Army revolts and starts new elections, the last time this happened was in 1982. Currently the muslim AK party rules but this party has been very careful with religious affairs.
If they join the EU, the Army would loose the power given by Kemal and an extremist muslim party could take over. The west has the impression that Turkey became a modern state in the 20th century but the recent muder of a Italian Christian priest by a radical 16-year old muslim proves that many parts of the Turkish population are still controlled by Islam in their daily life.
Turkey is potentially dangerous as a member of the EU, hence why it shouldnt become a member.

Offcourse there are also such things as the refusal to acknowledge the Armenian massacres. Turkey was also prepared to invade Iraq to make sure the Kurds wouldnt become to powerful after the fall of Saddam, another (recent) problem that speaks against them, as Kurds still dont have the same rights as Turks in Turkey.

..Offcourse there are also such things as the refusal to acknowledge the Armenian massacres. Turkey was also prepared to invade Iraq to make sure the Kurds wouldnt become to powerful after the fall of Saddam, another (recent) problem that speaks against them, as Kurds still dont have the same rights as Turks in Turkey.

And not just the Armenians and kurds, there were Progorms against the greeks, as well as the unrecognised status of the Laziur and Hensimli minorites not to mention the centuries of oppression of the Alevi's. PLEASE BRUSSEL'S DO NOT ALLOW THEM INTO THE EU.

If they join the EU, the Army would loose the power given by Kemal and an extremist muslim party could take over.
Except that religious parties are not allowed in the constitution, and that the Turks are pretty proud of that. They don't at all appreciate being thrown in the same pot as those "crazy Arabs" (true words spoken by a Turk, no shit).