NationStates Jolt Archive

But how can you enjoy a country that has the death penalty for drug related crimes? Even the barbaric US doesn't do that. I think you're letting your starry eyed experiences cloud your sense of political reality, comrade.

But how can you enjoy a country that has the death penalty for drug related crimes? Even the barbaric US doesn't do that. I think you're letting your starry eyed experiences cloud your sense of political reality, comrade.
Says the man from the country that executes children. How could you possibly enjoy a country that does that? The same way I enjoy Cuba...faults and all.

In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Viet Nam and the USA.http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng

I live in the country...except for a few years during University, I've ALWAYS lived in the country. Out here, black outs and brown outs are pretty regular. You make sure you have batteries in your clocks, you don't bother reseting the VCR or microwave clock, and you have surge protectors on EVERYTHING:). We must be oppressed! Down with the oppression of the rural Canadians!

Here in France, we used to have a good quality electricity, with very rare blackouts, even in rural areas. Even after a huge storm like 1999, things used to get fixed very quickly. And people who couldn't pay the bill used to be capped, but not totally cut from the electric network. All this was true not so long ago, when the electricity was state-operated... the public service EDF was doing a great job.

Now they started to privatise it, people get cut as soon as they can't pay (a family died recently in a city close to mine, because they used candles for light once they were cut, and a fire started...), and EDF is firing thousands of people, so they won't be able to fix things quickly when they break. And I doubt the overproduction policy (EDF is currently able to produce more power than they expect to need, in order to be able to maintain the current even in case of problem, like during the 2002 summer when they were forced to run many plants at half-capacity because they were overheating) will be kept, so next time, we'll have a blackout...

And now, some workers of EDF who refuse to see their public service disbanded are risking jail because they illegally re-establish the power to poor people who were cut... welcome to a capitalist paradise.

And speaking about democracy, our governement privatised EDF (which belongs to the french people, not to them !) against the will of the majority of french... so democratic !

Says the man from the country that executes children. How could you possibly enjoy a country that does that? The same way I enjoy Cuba...faults and all.

Aha, but I am for the death penalty, and you are not. I don't see it as a fault just because the offender happens to be a child... in the US they're given a trial not based on Soviet communist legal system.

Besides, I don't go around making threads about how great the US is. I'm well aware that my own perceptions are not enough to come to similar conclusions about the whole country, even if I've been here for my whole life and seen most states. Like I would never go on about how the cops here are friendly... or unfriendly. There are friendly and unfriendly cops. Even, I daresay, in the latin communist paradise.

Aha, but I am for the death penalty, and you are not. I don't see it as a fault just because the offender happens to be a child... in the US they're given a trial not based on Soviet communist legal system. I don't see your point. I am opposed to the death penalty, regardless of what country it is used in. That doesn't mean I consider all nations that use the death penalty to be inherently bad, or those that do not have it, to be inherently good.

Besides, I don't go around making threads about how great the US is. You don't, but many do. And the intent of this thread is not to just sing the praises of Cuba, but rather to let people know that a lot of what they hear about Cuba is crap.

I'm well aware that my own perceptions are not enough to come to similar conclusions about the whole country, even if I've been here for my whole life and seen most states. Like I would never go on about how the cops here are friendly... or unfriendly. There are friendly and unfriendly cops. Even, I daresay, in the latin communist paradise.
Your words, not mine. You can read into this thread all you want. I have simply stated my observations, based mostly on questions people have asked me since I've been back, but also based on things that people had told me before I left. My observations gel with the observations of others who have actually travelled to Cuba, but observations is all they are. You can assume that I am going on a 'praise communism and down with capitalism' rant...but my comments don't support your assumption...sorry. This thread is about Cuba...what I saw, and what I learned. What this thread is not, is another capitalism versus communism debate...except where others have attempted to make it so.

So back to the important things. Like ass shaking reggeton and rum. Mmmm.

This thread is about Cuba...what I saw, and what I learned. What this thread is not, is another capitalism versus communism debate...except where others have attempted to make it so.

I hope I wasn't too much off-topic with my post on french electricity... if I was, sorry for it.

Edit: anyway, thanks a lot for your informations about Cuba, was interesting.

I don't see your point. I am opposed to the death penalty, regardless of what country it is used in. That doesn't mean I consider all nations that use the death penalty to be inherently bad, or those that do not have it, to be inherently good.

Well, the point was that while I don't see the death penalty in the US as a "fault" to overlook, I do see it in Cuba, and find it hard to overlook.

This thread is about Cuba...

I know, and it's known to many of those on the forum who would sing it's praises as a triumph of communism. I'm just mocking them, not saying you're one of 'em.

So back to the important things. Like ass shaking reggeton and rum. Mmmm.

....but rum makes me fart. :(

Well, the point was that while I don't see the death penalty in the US as a "fault" to overlook, I do see it in Cuba, and find it hard to overlook. That's kind of weird...you see it as bad in Cuba, but okay in the US? Well...alright. I'm not going to go into that too much...that's what you believe, and I've already stated that I oppose the death penatly across the board. So we move on:)



I know, and it's known to many of those on the forum who would sing it's praises as a triumph of communism. I'm just mocking them, not saying you're one of 'em. Ah well. What works for some, doesn't work for others. Cuban 'communism' is distinctly Cuban...Venezuelan socialism is distinctly Venezuelan...US capitalism is distincly USian (hehehe). I figure...look at each system on a case by case basis. It's more fun that way anyway.



....but rum makes me fart. :(
Really!? That's truly bizarre. Well, there are two great beers we imbibed...Cristal (much better than Chilean Cristal..blech!) and Bucanero Fuerte. Hopefully beer doesn't make you fart...because other liquors are pretty expensive!

Bah. None of this will matter in a few years anyway; Peak Oil will destroy the Cuba that you know and love, along with the rest of the world. You’d be better off not going back, saving your money, and investing it in gold, diamonds, guns and moving to a place where you don't have to have a heater in the winter.

Talkin' to God on a two-way radio again? Has he told you the "mud people" are threatening your way of life? We all have our delusions, yours just seems particularly paranoid and sad. You have my pity.

Ya da! Great comments, Sinuhue. Conform to my perception and how I liked Cuba when I went there. My friends, who went there before and after me, also gave me details like yours.

Venceremos, venceremos,
La miseria sabremos vencer!

Do us all a favor and suck-start a shotgun.

People don't NEED electronics or labelled clothing, and the houses are built to the climate's standards. Just because someone's idea of a great place to live isn't YOUR wasteful, greedheaded, consumerist perdition doesn't mean theirs is wrong. As for canned and processed food, news flash: that's stuff's bad for you anyway! I'd RATHER have fresh fruits and vegetables and seafood than canned ANYthing. One stat I do know about Cuba is that the infant mortality rate there is 13x less than it is here in the USA. Believe me, I'm going for a visit as soon as I can on the strength of the MUSIC alone! Viva Tumbao!
*Nods* You tell them, tovaritch! :D


Edit: The Sandinistas were fascist assholes. They tried to invade Costa Rica supplied with US tanks, guns, food and other supplies. Costa Rica does not have an army. Nicaragua still got its ass kicked.
Don't worry, we all sometimes are completly off. Like when someone says the Sandinistas were fascist assholes even though they were, for the most part, either maoists or pure marxists. Here's for some of their realisations, after they inherited of a country in ruins with 600,000 homeless persons and near 2 billion U.S dollars in debts.

-Nationalisation of property owned by the Somozas and their collaborators.
-Land reform.
-Improved rural and urban working conditions.
-Free unionisation for all workers, both urban and rural.
-Control of living costs, especially basic necessities (food, clothing, and medicine).
-Improved public services, housing conditions, education (mandatory, free through high school; schools available to the whole national population; national literacy campaign).
-Nationalisation and protection of natural resources, including mines.
-Abolition of torture, political assassination and the death penalty.
-Protection of democratic liberties (freedom of expression, political organisation and association, and religion; return of political exiles).
-Equality for women.
-Free, non-aligned foreign policy and relations.
-Formation of a new, democratic, and popular army under the leadership of the FSLN.
-Pesticide controls
-Rain forest conservation
-Wildlife conservation
-Alternative energy programs
That's really fascist. By the way, they launched their liberation war from Costa Rica territory and crushed the U.S-backed Somoza's army.


And even, I re-edit:
By 1980, conflicts began to emerge between the Sandinista and non-Sandinista members of the governing junta. Violeta Chamorro and Alfonso Robelo resigned from the governing junta in 1980, and the governing role of the Sandinistas became obvious as Ortega and his allies consolidated power. Allegations spread among critics that the Ortega clique were planning to turn Nicaragua into a Communist state like Cuba. In 1981, the U.S. administration of Ronald Reagan began organising remnants of Somoza's National Guard into guerrilla bands known as "Contras" (short for "contrarrevolucionarios", or counter-revolutionaries) that conducted attacks on economic, military, and civilian targets. During the Contra war, the Sandinistas arrested suspected Contras and censored La Prensa as well as other publications that they accused of collaborating with the U.S. and the Contras to destabilise the country.

In contrast to the Cuban revolution, the Sandinista government practised political pluralism throughout its time in power. A broad range of new political parties emerged that had not been allowed under Somoza. Following promulgation of a new constitution, Nicaragua held national elections in 1984. Daniel Ortega and Sergio Ramírez were elected president and vice-president, and the FSLN won 61 out of 90 seats in the new National Assembly, having taken 63 per cent of the vote on a turnout of 74%. Independent electoral observers from around the world, including the UN, stated that the elections had been free and fair. The United States refused to recognise them, alleging that the opposition had been marginalised in the media and elsewhere by the government; United States President Ronald Reagan denounced the elections as a sham.
From Wikipedia. So much for american democracy and Sandinistas fascists...
*Cough*

But how can you enjoy a country that has the death penalty for drug related crimes? Even the barbaric US doesn't do that. I think you're letting your starry eyed experiences cloud your sense of political reality, comrade.
Yet the US has mandatory minimum sentences for minor drug abuse longer than minimum sentences for various real crimes.

Viva Sinuhue!

Welcome back. Do you live near Calgary? I thought you were somewhere near Toronto. My sister lives in Calgary -- if you see a red-and-curly-haired 42-year-old yoga instructor being pulled around Nose Hill by her two Dalamatians, tell her hello from her brother serving time in Bismarck.

Thanks for all the Cuban perspective. It sounds nice to have gotten away from the conspicuous crass consumerism of North America...and mojitos are simply the best. Did you get to hear any salsa bands with horns and full percussion? That's my reason for wanting to visit Cuba. The music (and the food).

Don't worry, we all sometimes are completly off. Like when someone says the Sandinistas were fascist assholes even though they were, for the most part, either maoists or pure marxists. Here's for some of their realisations, after they inherited of a country in ruins with 600,000 homeless persons and near 2 billion U.S dollars in debts. Thanks...I didn't even have the energy to deal with such a stupid post...but it DID need to be dealt with.

Yet the US has mandatory minimum sentences for minor drug abuse longer than minimum sentences for various real crimes.

Interestingly, this puts a lot of people in long term incarceration fairly early on, and ages them out of the pool of people who would be likely to commit violent crime or property crime.

It's part of the reason that violence has dropped so precipitously in the US - jail an idiot when he's young, find a reason to keep him there until he's 40, and crime plummets.

Still, you end up with a lot of older losers, and a burgeoning business in prisons.

Viva Sinuhue!

Welcome back. Do you live near Calgary? I thought you were somewhere near Toronto. Hahahaha...well, for most non-Canadians, Calgary and Toronto are right next door to one another anyway...but no...I'm actually closer to Edmonton. The flights from Calgary just happened to be $300 cheaper per person.

My sister lives in Calgary -- if you see a red-and-curly-haired 42-year-old yoga instructor being pulled around Nose Hill by her two Dalamatians, tell her hello from her brother serving time in Bismarck.

Thanks for all the Cuban perspective. It sounds nice to have gotten away from the conspicuous crass consumerism of North America...and mojitos are simply the best. Did you get to hear any salsa bands with horns and full percussion? That's my reason for wanting to visit Cuba. The music (and the food).
I'm not a huge salsa fan, I'm embarrased to say. I prefer cumbias and merengues. We didn't get to see much live music...but we weren't looking that hard. We did have about four nights in total, just jamming with people in their houses, and that's the kind of live music I like the best. But I really, really enjoyed watching people dance...once you pick your jaw up off the floor, and try shaking your ass yourself, it's quite the thing:)

Question for Sinuhue: Is Cuba still a hideout for pirates? Me and my crew have just scored a fair amount of gold and need a place to waste it.

Question for Sinuhue: Is Cuba still a hideout for pirates? Me and my crew have just scored a fair amount of gold and need a place to waste it.
Kehehehe...unfortunately no. But it IS still the resting place for booty of the non-living kind...in fact, in the bay of Matanzas, a Spanish galleon was sunk carrying a full load of silver. Everyone knows it's still there, but no one can get to it, because it's so deep. Yes, yes, the technology exists somewhere out there...but Cuba is hardly going to let treasure hunters come and try their hand at recovering the silver...but you could always try to sneak in...

Kehehehe...unfortunately no. But it IS still the resting place for booty of the non-living kind...in fact, in the bay of Matanzas, a Spanish galleon was sunk carrying a full load of silver. Everyone knows it's still there, but no one can get to it, because it's so deep. Yes, yes, the technology exists somewhere out there...but Cuba is hardly going to let treasure hunters come and try their hand at recovering the silver...but you could always try to sneak in...

Nice, thanks for the advice:p

*gets scuba gear*

I live in the country...except for a few years during University, I've ALWAYS lived in the country. Out here, black outs and brown outs are pretty regular. You make sure you have batteries in your clocks, you don't bother reseting the VCR or microwave clock, and you have surge protectors on EVERYTHING:). We must be oppressed! Down with the oppression of the rural Canadians!
Hey, who told you that you could be upset about being oppressed? You are in rural Canada. Your opinions mean nothing to those from Vancouver!

PS-My power went out three different times this weekend.

Hey, who told you that you could be upset about being oppressed? You are in rural Canada. Your opinions mean nothing to those from Vancouver!

PS-My power went out three different times this weekend.
Actually, to be properly angsty a la Western Canadian...my opinions mean nothing to Ottawa:)

Well, I don't support Castro censorship of the press and such... but USA is far from a democratic heaven either. And not even going as far in history as the dark ages of Mc Carthy, the post-September 11 USA is not more democratic than Cuba.

Two political parties with similar views, bound to corporate money and no chance for another party to ever have any power, an information network nearly completly controlled by a few corporations, an electoral college system allowing the candidate with the least amount of votes to become president, massive electoral frauds, governement spying over citizen, ...

And don't forget that the worse place in the island of Cuba, where many political prisonners are held without any trial, and tortured, is not under control of Castro: it's Guantanamo Bay.
I second that.

My friend brought back some cigarettes from cuba once. Called "Popular". Tasted like shit. I never met anybody who could take a deep drag on one without choking.

He also brought back some cuban cigars. They were fucking ace.

My friend brought back some cigarettes from cuba once. Called "Popular". Tasted like shit. I never met anybody who could take a deep drag on one without choking. I didn't bother bringing back populares...they are unbelievably strong! Then again, they are almost pure tabacco...no chemical additives oh, say, like arsenic, benzyne and so on...but my husband ended up smoking Lucky Strike cigs while in Cuba.

He also brought back some cuban cigars. They were fucking ace.
Smell like cow piss to me...but there's no accounting for taste:)

I remember smoking Russian cigarettes "back in the day".

They crackled like kindling, and tasted like dried burning cabbage. Instant headache.

The Russians I met preferred Marlboro. Even over Cuban cigarettes.

I remember smoking Russian cigarettes "back in the day".

They crackled like kindling, and tasted like dried burning cabbage. Instant headache.

The Russians I met preferred Marlboro. Even over Cuban cigarettes.
Cuban cigs seemed pretty much to be small versions of cigars. Potent as hell, unfiltered, and ALL tobacco. They absolutely hated Canadian cigarettes...found them to be too weak:)

I smoked some Chinese ones a while back. I think my throat still hates me...

Yes. Just like China and Vietnam.

So yes, I would find it boring because everything I enjoy would get me lined up against a wall and gunned down. Hardly my idea of a good vacation.

OK, I'm a little more open-minded than most "Usians" or whatever you prefer to call us, just so you know where I'm coming from. Is it true that people in Cuba are jailed for being openly critical of Fidel Castro or the Cuban government in general?

Having never been there (I might consider an... illicit... voyage via Mexico or Canada after I finish college :) ) all I know about Cuba comes from Amnesty International and Freedom House. (I don't trust what President Boy George W. Chimpboy says as far as I could throw him, and I'm not a very big guy.)

Really!? That's truly bizarre. Well, there are two great beers we imbibed...Cristal (much better than Chilean Cristal..blech!) and Bucanero Fuerte. Hopefully beer doesn't make you fart...because other liquors are pretty expensive!

Oh no, beer and I get along just fine. Juuuust fine.

Did you happen to notice any good vodka? Leftovers from when the Soviets had more of a hand in things....?

I second that.

Correction, the worst place on the island of Cuba, is the Island of Cuba, the dictatorship government of President Dictator for life Fidel Castro of Cuba of 47 years and counting.

The whole island of Cuba excluding Guantanamo Bay is an Island Prison nation.

He treats it like it's his own private farm house.

Remember the thread on NS about the movie Animal Farm,
thats Cuba under Fidel Castro.

Actually, I won't take that bet. This is their winter, and it was like a really, really good Canadian summer. I don't think I could handle the weather in July and August there. Plus, I'm pretty sure I'd like to avoid hurricane season.


Darn! I was hoping to make an easy $3000! It's a pity (for me) you're not more gullible, Sin.

Correction, the worst place on the island of Cuba, is the Island of Cuba.

Do you mean that Castro is using torture ? Even his most vocal opponents don't claim it. Do you mean he's holding prisoners without even telling them of what they are accused ? Even his most vocal opponents don't claim it. Do you mean he doesn't feed his prisonners ? Even his most vocal opponents don't claim it.

So stop your bullshit. I know you hate Castro, and I'm not too fond of the man either. But that's not the question. You cannot deny that the most outrageous human rights violation on the island of Cuba are in Guatanamo Bay, or you just show us that you're saying bullshit.

Of course "hey, they do worse" is no excuse for doing bad things, and political repression is never ok. But still, Cuba is far, far from being the ultimate dictatorship many, including you, protrait, and the so-called western democracies are far, far from being pure either.

Do you mean that Castro is using torture ? Even his most vocal opponents don't claim it. Do you mean he's holding prisoners without even telling them of what they are accused ? Even his most vocal opponents don't claim it. Do you mean he doesn't feed his prisonners ? Even his most vocal opponents don't claim it.

So stop your bullshit. I know you hate Castro, and I'm not too fond of the man either. But that's not the question. You cannot deny that the most outrageous human rights violation on the island of Cuba are in Guatanamo Bay, or you just show us that you're saying bullshit.

Of course "hey, they do worse" is no excuse for doing bad things, and political repression is never ok. But still, Cuba is far, far from being the ultimate dictatorship many, including you, protrait, and the so-called western democracies are far, far from being pure either.

To all, who can deny that Fidel Castro's government is a dictatorship of over 47 years and counting, where if you disagree with any government policy you can be harrassed by organized pro government mobs.

The answer to your questions are, yes it has been reported the Cuban government has used torture, yes some have been told and other not what they have been accused of, I will give you the feed the prisoners one.

I will give you an exsample, once when Jesee Jackson visited Cuba to free some political prisoners which Fidel turned over to him, at a news confrence on national US TV,
Jesse Jackson was praiseing Fidel for their release, one of the former prisoner who spoke english, said I cannot stand by anymore and hear this praise of Fidel, he took off his shirt on national TV and showed the people the wounds and brusis on his chest, you should have seen Jesse Jacksons face.

There are other many documented exsamples out there.

thank you for not being to fond of the man.

To all, who can deny that Fidel Castro's government is a dictatorship of over 47 years and counting, where if you disagree with any government policy you can be harrassed by organized pro government mobs.
Not to forget that those Cubans who fled the communists back after the revolution (meaning rich Cubans, the upper class) stand to make a huge amount of money and take over the place if the Cuban government was to be replaced...

You know, I trust exile Cubans about as much as I trust this man:
http://www.iraqinews.com/images/bio_chalabi_ahmed.jpg

To all, who can deny that Fidel Castro's government is a dictatorship of over 47 years and counting, where if you disagree with any government policy you can be harrassed by organized pro government mobs.

The answer to your questions are, yes it has been reported the Cuban government has used torture, yes some have been told and other not what they have been accused of, I will give you the feed the prisoners one.

I will give you an exsample, once when Jesee Jackson visited Cuba to free some political prisoners which Fidel turned over to him, at a news confrence on national US TV,
Jesse Jackson was praiseing Fidel for their release, one of the former prisoner who spoke english, said I cannot stand by anymore and hear this praise of Fidel, he took off his shirt on national TV and showed the people the wounds and brusis on his chest, you should have seen Jesse Jacksons face.

There are other many documented exsamples out there.

thank you for not being to fond of the man.
The US, nor anyone, has never done anything like this ever, this makes Cuba inherently worse than every other single country to ever have existed.


The whole island of Cuba excluding Guantanamo Bay is an Island Prison nation.
I know I'm not the only person who saw the hilarious irony in that statement.


Remember the thread on NS about the movie Animal Farm,
thats Cuba under Fidel Castro.
You mean Cuba is an incoherent farm in the English countryside that always looks like you are on an acid trip?

Not to forget that those Cubans who fled the communists back after the revolution (meaning rich Cubans, the upper class) stand to make a huge amount of money and take over the place if the Cuban government was to be replaced...

You know, I trust exile Cubans about as much as I trust this man:
http://www.iraqinews.com/images/bio_chalabi_ahmed.jpg

So you trust and like President Dictator for life Fidel Castro of Cuba? Interesting concept.

The US, nor anyone, has never done anything like this ever, this makes Cuba inherently worse than every other single country to ever have existed.



I know I'm not the only person who saw the hilarious irony in that statement.



You mean Cuba is an incoherent farm in the English countryside that always looks like you are on an acid trip?

Teh, I dont quite understand your posts, I have never actually understood many of your posts either way?

Could you post in a way I can understand them better,
since I am such an idiot?

Teh, I dont quite understand your posts, I have never actually understood many of your posts either way?

Could you post in a way I can understand them better,
since I am such an idiot?
My posts are perfectly straightforward, I can try making them in Spanish if you feel that would help, it might bring them down to more basic levels as I am not fluent.

My posts are perfectly straightforward, I can try making them in Spanish if you feel that would help, it might bring them down to more basic levels as I am not fluent.

Well, for starters, I perceived that you were being sarcastic about the tortured man showing his scars on TV with Jesse Jackson and Castro present.

The other posters might not pick up on the idea that you think that a tortured man in the presence of his torturer and liberator on TV is comic relief.

The whole island of Cuba excluding Guantanamo Bay is an Island Prison nation.LOL

Guantanamo Bay... the ultimate beacon of Freedom and Justice..

If you have it your way.. the whole Island would be like Gitmo.
You are patetico.

So you trust and like President Dictator for life Fidel Castro of Cuba? Interesting concept.I like him more than you.. thats is for sure.

To all, who can deny that Fidel Castro's government is a dictatorship of over 47 years and counting, where if you disagree with any government policy you can be harrassed by organized pro government mobs.

Right, so those people I met who were openly critical of Fidel Castro were attacked by a government mob later? Please, do tell. Your theory has been debunked by observations.

The answer to your questions are, yes it has been reported the Cuban government has used torture, yes some have been told and other not what they have been accused of, I will give you the feed the prisoners one.

So if this has been reported, it should be easy to find a link from a credible source, right?

I will give you an exsample, once when Jesee Jackson visited Cuba to free some political prisoners which Fidel turned over to him, at a news confrence on national US TV,
Jesse Jackson was praiseing Fidel for their release, one of the former prisoner who spoke english, said I cannot stand by anymore and hear this praise of Fidel, he took off his shirt on national TV and showed the people the wounds and brusis on his chest, you should have seen Jesse Jacksons face.

There are other many documented exsamples out there.

thank you for not being to fond of the man.

I will attempt to find some corroboration of this story.

Y una pregunta mas, porque estas tan enojado con el gobierno de Fidel? Parece que estas un poco neurotico.

Well, for starters, I perceived that you were being sarcastic about the tortured man showing his scars on TV with Jesse Jackson and Castro present.

The other posters might not pick up on the idea that you think that a tortured man in the presence of his torturer and liberator on TV is comic relief.
I was making a point, not being sarcastic. Well, not sarcastic about the man specifically, but about the idea in general that because Cuba (purportedly) tortures people, it is an evil hell-hole because we all know that no other nation has ever tortured prisoners.

The Cuban people, and the island itself, are wonderful and worthy of praise. Neither deserve Castro's oppressive dictatorship having happened to them.

I was making a point, not being sarcastic. Well, not sarcastic about the man specifically, but about the idea in general that because Cuba tortures people, it is an evil hell-hole because we all know that no other nation has ever tortured prisoners.

Well, you have to admit that none of the people who claim to have been tortured by US forces have appeared with their shirt off in front of Bush at an inopportune moment.

In fact, one of the more recent claims made by a US citizen of Saudi descent who was accused of conspiring to kill Bush was debunked in a rather spectacular way (in addition to being debunked by thorough medical examination).

The man in question claimed that he had the scars from whippings he sustained while being held by the Saudi intelligence service - he said that his back was a mass of scars.

So the judge told him to take his shirt off. Not one single scar. The judge then ordered a thorough medical examination - no scars anywhere on his body, no broken and healed bones - nothing.

Would have been really funny to see that on TV. With Bush saying, "Son, take your shirt off and turn around so the folks at home can see your scars up close..."

Y una pregunta mas, porque estas tan enojado con el gobierno de Fidel? Parece que estas un poco neurotico.I dont know if Habano speak Spanish.. I spoke spanish to him befor and he did not understand (my post was e-translator proof ;) )

He may be a poser.

Well, you have to admit that none of the people who claim to have been tortured by US forces have appeared with their shirt off in front of Bush at an inopportune moment.
Well, I doubt they are allowed in front of televisions.

Y una pregunta mas, porque estas tan enojado con el gobierno de Fidel? Parece que estas un poco neurotico.

It's apparent from some of his previous posts that his experience relates to relatives who have personal experiences in Cuba.

Hardly neurotic in that case.

So yes, I would find it boring because everything I enjoy would get me lined up against a wall and gunned down. Hardly my idea of a good vacation.
Yes, it was horrible. I was shot multiple times.

So the judge told him to take his shirt off. Not one single scar. The judge then ordered a thorough medical examination - no scars anywhere on his body, no broken and healed bones - nothing.interesting.. got a Link from a News Corp?

I will give you an exsample, once when Jesee Jackson visited Cuba to free some political prisoners which Fidel turned over to him, at a news confrence on national US TV,
Jesse Jackson was praiseing Fidel for their release, one of the former prisoner who spoke english, said I cannot stand by anymore and hear this praise of Fidel, he took off his shirt on national TV and showed the people the wounds and brusis on his chest, you should have seen Jesse Jacksons face.

I must be using google wrong, because I can find no mention of this episode. Not even on conservative blog sites.

Perhaps La Habana Cuba can provide a link?

Yes, it was horrible. I was shot multiple times.
ohhh.. burn baby burn.. :D

I must be using google wrong, because I can find no mention of this episode. Not even on conservative blog sites.

Perhaps La Habana Cuba can provide a link?

This happend, I saw it on national USA TV news, I will try to find a link or a story on it.

I stand by my Post.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7018521/site/newsweek/from/RL.1/

In their court filing Wednesday, federal prosecutors stated: "An American doctor gave the defendant a thorough physical examination on or about February 21, 2005, after the defendant had been transferred by the Saudi government to U.S. custody. The doctor found no evidence of physical mistreatment on the defendant's back or any other part of his body."

If you've ever seen the video of his confession, he looks relaxed, confident, and comfortable - not fearful. Not being beaten or threatened.

The Judge acknowledged that he might have been tortured in some way - but he said that the evidence is only circumstantial - it's largely based on the human rights reports that Saudis have been known to torture people before.

But if examinations show that he wasn't tortured in the way he alleges (with his back a mass of scars), then he'll have to rough his back up a little before he goes to court again.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7018521/site/newsweek/from/RL.1/

In their court filing Wednesday, federal prosecutors stated: "An American doctor gave the defendant a thorough physical examination on or about February 21, 2005, after the defendant had been transferred by the Saudi government to U.S. custody. The doctor found no evidence of physical mistreatment on the defendant's back or any other part of his body."

If you've ever seen the video of his confession, he looks relaxed, confident, and comfortable - not fearful. Not being beaten or threatened.

The Judge acknowledged that he might have been tortured in some way - but he said that the evidence is only circumstantial - it's largely based on the human rights reports that Saudis have been known to torture people before.

But if examinations show that he wasn't tortured in the way he alleges (with his back a mass of scars), then he'll have to rough his back up a little before he goes to court again.
Resorted to repeating your posts? No one asked for proof of what you said, unless you are La Habana Cuba, which would explain a good bit actually. Great, we all know about this incident, move the hell on.

Well, for starters, I perceived that you were being sarcastic about the tortured man showing his scars on TV with Jesse Jackson and Castro present.

The other posters might not pick up on the idea that you think that a tortured man in the presence of his torturer and liberator on TV is comic relief.

The tortured man showing his scars on TV, apeared with Jesse Jackson present, when Jesse Jackson was praiseing
Fidel for the release of the prisoners.

You should have seen Jesse Jacksons face, full of anger.

Fidel was in Cuba, where else, I hope that clears that part up if some of you did not understand.

OK, I'm a little more open-minded than most "Usians" or whatever you prefer to call us, just so you know where I'm coming from. Is it true that people in Cuba are jailed for being openly critical of Fidel Castro or the Cuban government in general?

Having never been there (I might consider an... illicit... voyage via Mexico or Canada after I finish college :) ) all I know about Cuba comes from Amnesty International and Freedom House. (I don't trust what President Boy George W. Chimpboy says as far as I could throw him, and I'm not a very big guy.)
Cuba has had it's ups and its downs in terms of political freedom. You might remember not too long back, some hijackings that occurred there? The masterminds behind the hijacking were executed, and this sparked off some serious political controversy both inside and outside of Cuba. The hijacking was seen as being part of a wider movement, which was being funded and aided by the US, to cause problems within Cuba. Of course, the US will deny it...but it's a matter of public record that the US has been behind repeated assassination attempts, and well-funded subversive activity aimed at Cuba...I doubt anyone believes they've suddenly 'propered up' and stopped using these dirty tactics. In any case, not long after the hijackings, there was a new wave of dissent within Cuba, and 75 people were jailed...one of the biggest crackdowns since the actual revolution itself. This crack down has been widely and uniformly condemned outside of Cuba. Inside, people are divided. Many believe that the people arrested were being funded and supported by the Miami Cubans, and deserve their fate. Others feel that even so, they shouldn't be in jail.

What is NOT true is that there exist a huge number of prisoners of conscience (aside from this particular group). Cuban laws are pretty broad when it comes to 'protecting the integrity of the state', but you still aren't going to get snatched off the street for shouting, "Fidel's an ass, I love Bush!". You'll be laughed at, but not arrested. What people don't seem to understand is that Cubans, on the whole, are not sitting there in Cuba saying, "oh, I hate my life here in Cuba, I hate the system, I wish we were just like such and such a country". The complaints are more like, "DAMN! Why are jeans so expensive! I can't afford a telephone so people have to call me at my neighbours'!" and so on. Every day, regular gripes. Cubans are also not as insulated from the rest of the world as people like to believe. Not only is their news service EXTREMELY broad (as in, other than just Cuban news, they actually see, every day, in-depth information about what is happening all over the world), but many, many Cubans have traveled overseas as social workers and students and such. Most families have at least one relative who has recently traveled overseas, and given them the lowdown on the living conditions in that country. Because of the increased tourism, Cubans are also getting a lot of information about Western nations from tourists...overall, I felt they had less of a starry-eyed view of the West than many Latin Americans...they understand that increased wealth generally means increased spending and debt, and not necessarily increased prosperity.

Hmmm...bit of a tangent that. So yes, there is some political repression in Cuba, and sometimes it goes a bit overboard...but wide scale repression does not exist. People are not tortured, or disappeared, or beaten for their beliefs. Most of the 'repression' you hear about in Cuba has to be taken in the context of the extreme ideological aggression shown towards Cuba by the United States...why doesn't everyone have a personal computer and an internet connection (other than it being too expensive right now, it's also banned)? Is it really that Castro doesn't want Cubans being able to access information? Like what? What information is it that they don't already get? Advertisements and anti-Cuban propaganda. THAT's what is being 'denied' them right now. They know very well what the US thinks about Castro and Cuba, but right now, they aren't getting the equivalent of propaganda leaflets tossed into their email boxes by 'well-meaning' Miami Cubans...and you gotta know they have such a campaign planned for the SECOND internet use becomes widespread there. Compare it to this scenario: Al Qaeda starts spamming every email address in the US, offering sums of money for each bomb set, or each subversive activity committed within that nation. How 'open and free' would your internet be then? I suspect that once China finishes it's computer factory in Venezuela, Cuba will buy directly from them, will set up its own operating systems as Brazil has done, and will be blocking US attempts at subversive spammage and viruses.[the previous is my opinion of possible events and is not meant to be expressed as current fact]

Resorted to repeating your posts? No one asked for proof of what you said, unless you are La Habana Cuba, which would explain a good bit actually. Great, we all know about this incident, move the hell on.LOL sierra..

Thats what you get for not using the Quote Function.. :D :D :p :D

Please reconcile this:
Cuba's Repressive Machinery: Human Rights Forty Years After the Revolution, Human Rights Watch, 1999.

III. IMPEDIMENTS TO HUMAN RIGHTS IN CUBAN LAW

Similarly, on April 21, 1995, a Cuban military court tried and sentenced the leader of the National Council for Civil Rights in Cuba (Consejo Nacional para los Derechos Civiles en Cuba, CNDCC), Francisco Pastor Chaviano González, to fifteen years for revealing state security secrets and falsifying a public document, on the grounds that he had identified infiltrators in the CNDCC. He remains in prison at this writing. Alberto Manuel Boza Vázquez received a twelve-year sentence, while Juan Carlos González Vázquez received an eight-year sentence. The court also sentenced an Interior Ministry official, Augusto César San Martín Albistur, to seventeen years. Prison authorities released several other activists upon completion of their sentences.73

The government based its charge on Chaviano González's alleged effort to identify government infiltrators in his organization. The judges concluded that Chaviano participated in a document fraud scheme to entice representatives of the Interior Ministry (including a former ministry official, Boza Vázquez, and San Martín Albistur) to reveal the identity of State Security agents. Furthermore, the judges found that Chaviano and his fellow activists obtained several documents for use in their "counterrevolutionary activities." These documents included two pamphlets that were classified secret: "Economic Crime in the Commercial, Gastronomical, and Service Sector" and "Economic Crime in Activities relating to Energy" and one denouncing prison abuses.74

Due Process Denied

Cuba frequently denies its citizens internationally recognized due process guarantees.104 In law and in practice, Cuba impedes the right to a public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal where the accused has sufficient guarantees for his or her defense.

The case of Francisco Pastor Chaviano González, a dissident leader who received a fifteen-year sentence for revealing state secrets, highlights several of the obstacles facing criminal defendants in Cuba.105 Chaviano González and some of his co-defendants remain in Cuban prisons. Cuban authorities arrested Chaviano González in March 1994 and held him in pretrial detention for over one year. The April 21, 1995, trial in a military court was closed to the public, press, and human rights activists, yet the courtroom was packed with dozens of State Security agents. Chaviano said that on the morning of the trial a government official gave him a sandwich that he believed contained a drug, since after eating it he found that he could not communicate and was slurring his speech. The government did not allow the defendants to review the evidence against them.106 The principal evidence against Chaviano was a packet of documents delivered to his house the morning of his arrest by a stranger, who said he was acting in the name of other human rights activists.

Closed Trials

As in Chaviano González's case, Cuban judges occasionally choose to try nonviolent government opponents behind closed doors, violating the right to a public trial. The Criminal Procedure Code grants tribunals broad authority to close trials at any stage for reasons of state security, morality, or public order. While these could serve as legitimate justifications for barring the public from a trial, Cuba's closed trials appear designed to cover-up its denial of due process to dissidents and to restrict opportunities for the public to hear their views. The law bars everyone related to the defendant except his lawyer from attending closed trials.111 Brothers José Antonio Rodríguez Santana and José Manuel Rodríguez Santana received ten-year sentences for rebellion and enemy propaganda at a closed trial in August 1993. While José Antonio was forced into exile in Canada in early 1998, José Manuel Rodríguez Santana remains in prison in Cuba.112

with this statement:

Castro, before an international conference in Havana in April 2001:

''There have never been death squads in our country, nor a single missing person, nor a single political assassination, nor a single victim of torture. . . . You may travel around the country, ask the people, look for a single piece of evidence, try to find a single case where the Revolutionary government has ordered or tolerated such an action. And if you find them, then I will never speak in public again."

Oh no, beer and I get along just fine. Juuuust fine.

Did you happen to notice any good vodka? Leftovers from when the Soviets had more of a hand in things....?
No...all other liquors are crazy expensive (and imported). Well...crazy expensive in the sense that they cost as much as they do back home.

[QUOTE=Auranai]The Cuban people, and the island itself, are wonderful and worthy of praise. Neither deserve Castro's oppressive dictatorship having happened to them.

Thank you Auranai.

The tortured man showing his scars on TV, apeared with Jesse Jackson present, when Jesse Jackson was praiseing
Fidel for the release of the prisoners.

You should have seen Jesse Jacksons face, full of anger.

Fidel was in Cuba, where else, I hope that clears that part up if some of you did not understand.
That is not evidence that it happened.

Well, for starters, I perceived that you were being sarcastic about the tortured man showing his scars on TV with Jesse Jackson and Castro present.

The other posters might not pick up on the idea that you think that a tortured man in the presence of his torturer and liberator on TV is comic relief.
Oh, I love this. Kimchi...the man who upholds the US definition of torture which is, "THAT'S not torture!"...and suddenly Jesse Jackson is the 'liberator'? WOW! WHAT A MAN! He took on Cuba all by himself, wrested this man from prison, and freed him! ELECT THAT MAN PRESIDENT! He must be a super hero. Oh wait...that's total bullshit (still waiting for a link by the way Havana Cuba) because what was said was that Fidel turned this man OVER to Jackson (probably with the hope said man would be taken out of Cuba). Oh...and that you implied that Castro tortured this man...that's even funnier.

Oh, I love this. Kimchi...the man who upholds the US definition of torture which is, "THAT'S not torture!"...and suddenly Jesse Jackson is the 'liberator'? WOW! WHAT A MAN! He took on Cuba all by himself, wrested this man from prison, and freed him! ELECT THAT MAN PRESIDENT! He must be a super hero. Oh wait...that's total bullshit (still waiting for a link by the way Havana Cuba) because what was said was that Fidel turned this man OVER to Jackson (probably with the hope said man would be taken out of Cuba). Oh...and that you implied that Castro tortured this man...that's even funnier.

Hey, you're the one who says that torture is wrong, and that allegations of torture should be investigated.

You also tend to believe Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

Or do you not believe them when it comes to Cuba?

Right, so those people I met who were openly critical of Fidel Castro were attacked by a government mob later? Please, do tell. Your theory has been debunked by observations. He would have everyone believe that people are routinely subjected to 'mob violence' because of their political beliefs. What a load of shite.



Y una pregunta mas, porque estas tan enojado con el gobierno de Fidel? Parece que estas un poco neurotico.
The sad thing is, he's actually being pretty polite about it compared to most Miami Cubans who hate Castro. In fact, La Habana Cuba is one of the few such I can actually talk to at all...the others tend to foam at the mouth too much.

Please reconcile this:

with this statement:

Castro, before an international conference in Havana in April 2001:

''There have never been death squads in our country, nor a single missing person, nor a single political assassination, nor a single victim of torture. . . . You may travel around the country, ask the people, look for a single piece of evidence, try to find a single case where the Revolutionary government has ordered or tolerated such an action. And if you find them, then I will never speak in public again."

Easy. Your article discusses due process. Castro doesn't.

Besides, the US administration that you support also supports arresting and imprisoning people without due process. Pot, meet kettle.

Please reconcile this:

with this statement:

Castro, before an international conference in Havana in April 2001:

''There have never been death squads in our country, nor a single missing person, nor a single political assassination, nor a single victim of torture. . . . You may travel around the country, ask the people, look for a single piece of evidence, try to find a single case where the Revolutionary government has ordered or tolerated such an action. And if you find them, then I will never speak in public again."
If I read that right, he was put in jail on charges of espionage, or at least attempted espionage, something that I can assure you is illegal everywhere.

Chaviano González and some of his co-defendants remain in Cuban prisons.
Well, he was sentenced to 15 years in 1995. I guess the author of the article can't add.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7018521/site/newsweek/from/RL.1/

In their court filing Wednesday, federal prosecutors stated: "An American doctor gave the defendant a thorough physical examination on or about February 21, 2005, after the defendant had been transferred by the Saudi government to U.S. custody. The doctor found no evidence of physical mistreatment on the defendant's back or any other part of his body."

If you've ever seen the video of his confession, he looks relaxed, confident, and comfortable - not fearful. Not being beaten or threatened.

The Judge acknowledged that he might have been tortured in some way - but he said that the evidence is only circumstantial - it's largely based on the human rights reports that Saudis have been known to torture people before.

But if examinations show that he wasn't tortured in the way he alleges (with his back a mass of scars), then he'll have to rough his back up a little before he goes to court again.LOL
sierra, when will you ever learn.
You have modified the "News" Article.
Your attempt to "sexed-it-up" is pathetic.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/cub-summary-eng
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

Yes, I guess that Sinuhue is right, and these two organizations are wrong.

Thanks Sinuhue, now I can tell you that those organizations are wrong about US treatment of detainees.

Thank you very much.

The tortured man showing his scars on TV, apeared with Jesse Jackson present, when Jesse Jackson was praiseing
Fidel for the release of the prisoners.

You should have seen Jesse Jacksons face, full of anger.

Fidel was in Cuba, where else, I hope that clears that part up if some of you did not understand.
Well, until you actually provide some evidence for this ever actually having happened, you can probably just let your previous description stand as the anedote is it.

LOL
sierra, when will you ever learn.
You have modified the "News" Article.
Your attempt to "sexed-it-up" is pathetic.

You can read the link yourself - and you'll note that I put my remarks in parentheses so as to distinguish them.

Hardly hiding anything, eh?

If you read the beginning of the news article, his own defense lawyer uses those words.

Or are you going to claim that I'm editing the MSNBC website?

Thanks Sinuhue, now I can tell you that those organizations are wrong about US treatment of detainees.
Isn't like you have believed them anyway.

You can read the link yourself - and you'll note that I put my remarks in parentheses so as to distinguish them.

Hardly hiding anything, eh?

If you read the beginning of the news article, his own defense lawyer uses those words.

Or are you going to claim that I'm editing the MSNBC website?

Yes. Well. Hm. Can you and OceanDrive stop hijacking the thread now?

Easy. Your article discusses due process. Castro doesn't.

Besides, the US administration that you support also supports arresting and imprisoning people without due process. Pot, meet kettle.

I'm saying that if you're going to criticize the US for it, why not criticize Castro for it?

Sinuhue's assertion that nothing of the sort goes on in Cuba is like me asserting that the US doesn't have anyone in Guantanamo.

If you're going to buy her statement at face value, then I'll be posting that there are no illegal detainees in Guantanamo, and you'll have to accept it at face value.

That is not evidence that it happened.

Teh, so according to you, I did not see what I saw on TV news?

The former political prisoner taking off his shirt showing his scars infront of Jesse Jackson, and Jesse Jacksons face full of anger on national TV news.

Do you think I would forget something like that?

Please dont use the linesI imagined it, and you said it, I didnt.

In case you did not understand that last part, I said those lines for you, just incase you would say them about me.

I will try to find a link or a news story on this, I stand by my Post.

Please reconcile this:

with this statement:

Castro, before an international conference in Havana in April 2001:

''There have never been death squads in our country, nor a single missing person, nor a single political assassination, nor a single victim of torture. . . . You may travel around the country, ask the people, look for a single piece of evidence, try to find a single case where the Revolutionary government has ordered or tolerated such an action. And if you find them, then I will never speak in public again."
Sorry...complaints about due process suddenly make the above quote invalid? How interesting. Are you going to apply this to the US now, where due process is still being denied a large number of people being held on...of all places...Cuban soil? Will this denial of due process suddenly make all the US's claims of fair play invalid? Woohoo!

Please Kimchi. Re-read Castro's quote. Now go and try find some actual evidence relating to that quote which proves the statement to be a lie. A hint...you are looking for actual evidence of 'death squads...missing persons (that means, disappeared by the government, not just 'gone missing')...political assassination...torture. We'll wait for you.

Hey, you're the one who says that torture is wrong, and that allegations of torture should be investigated.

You also tend to believe Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

Or do you not believe them when it comes to Cuba?
Amnesty International is not making claims about torture. La Habana Cuba is.

Teh, so according to you, I did not see what I saw on TV news?
Just to let you know, hearsay is not an allowed source of evidence.

You know what I saw on TV? Bush pulled a gun out of his pocket and shot Cheney in the leg after whipping Condoleeza Rice for speaking out of turn.

Prove me wrong.

Sinuhue you didnt know your Thread was going to be this good did you?

Welcome back from your vacation, I knew you would have a great time in Cuba.,

You see, I can be buena onda.

I'm saying that if you're going to criticize the US for it, why not criticize Castro for it?

Sinuhue's assertion that nothing of the sort goes on in Cuba is like me asserting that the US doesn't have anyone in Guantanamo.

If you're going to buy her statement at face value, then I'll be posting that there are no illegal detainees in Guantanamo, and you'll have to accept it at face value.

Oh. I thought you were asking us to reconcile two statements.

Please reconcile this:

Quote:
*snip*

with this statement:
*snip*

Now, which statement of Sinuhue's am I buying at face value?
Please provide a quote.

Amnesty International is not making claims about torture. La Habana Cuba is.

Maybe you should read the Amnesty and Human Rights Watch websites.

Cuba's human rights record sucks.

If you believe their assertions about the US, and you believe in their objectivity, then you have to buy their statements about Cuba.

If, as you have done, assert that all of that is BS, then I'll go ahead and say that every assertion they've made about the US is BS.

And if I have to buy your statements, you'll have to buy mine about how great both nations are in the area of due process, disappearing people, torture, etc.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/cub-summary-eng
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

Yes, I guess that Sinuhue is right, and these two organizations are wrong.

Thanks Sinuhue, now I can tell you that those organizations are wrong about US treatment of detainees.

Thank you very much.
I love how you so desperately try to twist things about so that you can get your little 'victory' in the end...we were talking, were we not, about torture, political assassinations, disappearances and death squads...though you tried (and failed) to pretend that these things are equal to a lack of due process in certain cases. You also represented La Habana Cuba's 'story' (which has still not been corroborated by any evidence) as being accusations made by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Then you provide a couple of links, and fail to actually point out what it is you think I should be reading. Since you are jumping all over the place with your accusations 'torture! ummm...okay, not torture...due process....oh...but I'm going to pretend that Amnesty International, in complaining about due process, is also complaining about torture, so that I don't have to retract my statement...' perhaps you can be clear, quote the accusations you feel are relevant, and we can go from there. Right now, I find your tactics to be reminiscent of the obscuration so often used by politicians...look at my right hand so you don't see what the left is doing...once you wish to stop playing games, and pretending that you can speak for me...then we can talk.

Or are you going to claim that I'm editing the MSNBC website?I clearly stated that you are trying to "Sex-it-up" a News report.. by adding your own words !!!
inside or/and outside "parentheses"

I also stated that it was pathetic.

You can read the link yourself - and you'll note that I put my remarks in parentheses so as to distinguish them.

Hardly hiding anything, eh?

If you read the beginning of the news article, his own defense lawyer uses those words.

Or are you going to claim that I'm editing the MSNBC website?
No, you are being dishonest. First, you present a story as evidence that this person lied about being tortured, and that there were no marks on his back, then you provide a link which should back you up...but upon closer reading, actually doesn't. Why are you playing this game? It makes me suspect all your statements as being dishonest.

Yes. Well. Hm. Can you and OceanDrive stop hijacking the thread now?
No doubt.

I'm saying that if you're going to criticize the US for it, why not criticize Castro for it?

Sinuhue's assertion that nothing of the sort goes on in Cuba is like me asserting that the US doesn't have anyone in Guantanamo. Kimchi, save it. Find the quote of mine where I state, "A lack of due process does not happen in Cuba". When you can't, please go somewhere else instead of wasting your energy constructing strawmen.

No, you are being dishonest. First, you present a story as evidence that this person lied about being tortured, and that there were no marks on his back, then you provide a link which should back you up...but upon closer reading, actually doesn't. Why are you playing this game? It makes me suspect all your statements as being dishonest.
The link does back it up.

His lawyer asserts that his back is a mass of scars from torture.

The medical examination says it was not.

Now go to the amnesty and human rights watch links - read them yourself, and tell me again how great Cuba's human rights record is.

It's right down there with the fun at Guantanamo, except that it's been going on for a long, long time.

Kimchi, save it. Find the quote of mine where I state, "A lack of due process does not happen in Cuba". When you can't, please go somewhere else instead of wasting your energy constructing strawmen.
You've said that there's no oppression of political freedom in Cuba. Everyone there is free, free, free.

No doubt.Cuando una mujer dice no.. :D

Ciao bella.

Sinuhue you didnt know your Thread was going to be this good did you?

Welcome back from your vacation, I knew you would have a great time in Cuba.,

You see, I can be buena onda.
I know it:)

Maybe you should read the Amnesty and Human Rights Watch websites.

Cuba's human rights record sucks.

If you believe their assertions about the US, and you believe in their objectivity, then you have to buy their statements about Cuba.

If, as you have done, assert that all of that is BS, then I'll go ahead and say that every assertion they've made about the US is BS.

And if I have to buy your statements, you'll have to buy mine about how great both nations are in the area of due process, disappearing people, torture, etc.
Provide specific accusations made by Amnesty International, and then provide specific instances of where I have denied those accusations.

Provide specific accusations made by Amnesty International, and then provide specific instances of where I have denied those accusations.
Your assertions have been general - that Cuba is a free, wonderful, fear-free political paradise, where no one is arrested for political reasons and no one is afraid.

Go back and read almost every statement you've made about Cuba in this thread. I can't link to enough of them.

I gave you the link to Amnesty and Human Rights Watch - the number of specific accusations is quite large.

Now go to the amnesty and human rights watch links - read them yourself, and tell me again how great Cuba's human rights record is.

It's right down there with the fun at Guantanamo, except that it's been going on for a long, long time.
Nice try...once again...running away from the demands made of you...to provide specific accusations made, provide examples of where I refute them. Actually, never mind...I'm allowing you to continue your hijack by even responding to you.

You've said that there's no oppression of political freedom in Cuba. Everyone there is free, free, free.
Still waiting for the quote. And I love how you pretend that this is akin to there being 'evidence' that people are tortured in Cuba.

Your assertions have been general - that Cuba is a free, wonderful, fear-free political paradise, where no one is arrested for political reasons and no one is afraid. Uh-huh...which is actually not what I've been saying, rather, I've been saying that Cuba is not the repressive boogeyman you'd like to pretend it is. That people are NOT snatched off the streets for expressing their political views, that people are not tortured, not disappeared, not assassinated, not beaten by mobs...and you have yet to provide one iota of evidence to refute these statements.

Go back and read almost every statement you've made about Cuba in this thread. I can't link to enough of them. You mean, you won't. Because the argument you are attempting to make...that torture and so on exists in Cuba, and Amnesty International backs you up, and I'm in denial...is false. Amnesty International talks about due process...not torture, etc etc etc.

I gave you the link to Amnesty and Human Rights Watch - the number of specific accusations is quite large.
So you rest your case. Good. We can stop hearing your BS about torture and so on then. That's a relief.

You've said that there's no oppression of political freedom in Cuba. Everyone there is free, free, free.

she said that?

free to do what, writhe in economic depravation, entrepreneurial vacuums, one-job-for-life claustrophobia... as unwilling sufferers of the (invariably) weak communist economy?

Communism sucks, in Cuba and outside of Cuba.

Why are they driving 1950s cars?

It isn't because 1950s cars are nice-looking.

is there free press in cuba?

is there freedom of speech in cuba?

is there freedom to do business in cuba?

is there freedom to worship in cuba as you wish? (actually i can see this right being respected)

When people taste economic (and other types of) freedom, they want it. (at least, those who aren't incredibly lazy want it). In order to keep such ideas of freedom from reaching people's ears and invading their "father knows best" mentality -- indeed, for communism to have any chance at all -- the ruler(s) must rule with an iron fist. IE, no freedom of speech, no freedom of press, nobody can make money, nobody can ever be allowed to become greedy enough to want to make money. If those things happen, people might realize their plight and how unfree/shackled they are by communism.

Look at the long-term communist countries:

USSR
Cuba
China
North Korea
Vietnam

All have terrible human rights records. None have real freedom of speech or press. All of their people are prevented from going out and making money, because the idea of making money is sinful in the Marx/Engels code. (never mind that most entrepreneurs create jobs/investment opportunities/choice in products for people... the cream will rise to the top, too many people will have money while a few will suffer... and communists can't have that! How dare anyone want to be successful in helping himself and his country's economy?!)

They are not open countries. The can't really be open countries, lest the idea of freedom take root.

So I sit here amazed that you were somehow brainwashed into thinking that Cubans could be anything but ultimately oppressed and that Castro's isn't an oppressive regime. (though they do have good sandwiches and apparently the island is beautiful)

Those people are not free.

she said that? Try reading for yourself what I've said, instead of taking Kimchi's word for it. He's not too reliable right now.

she said that?

free to do what, writhe in economic depravation, entrepreneurial vacuums, one-job-for-life claustrophobia... as unwilling sufferers of the (invariably) weak communist economy?

Communism sucks, in Cuba and outside of Cuba.

Why are they driving 1950s cars?

It isn't because 1950s cars are nice-looking.

So, you saw all this when you were in Cuba?

So, you saw all this when you were in Cuba?
Hehehehheee....

Try reading for yourself what I've said, instead of taking Kimchi's word for it. He's not too reliable right now.

hehe

that would take too much effort. i just wanted to get in my daily diatribe against Communism. ;)

hehe

that would take too much effort. i just wanted to get in my daily diatribe against Communism. ;)

Yes, we all noticed that it was merely a rant about an ideology that you do not agree with and had little, if any, basis in fact.

hehe

that would take too much effort. i just wanted to get in my daily diatribe against Communism. ;)
Daily Diatribe Against Communism, better known as DDAC, is the new 'fibre' for capitalists! Decrease your chances of developing high blood pressure, heart disease, and even stroke by indulging in a little DDAC!:p

Sinuhue

Did you try a mojito (non-Spanish speakers: mo-HEE-to) while you were there?

And do they eat the now-popular Cuban sandwiches? Or is it a case where we take their flavor and Americanize it? (IE, are cuban sandwiches in the US the same as cuban sandwiches in cuba?)

Yes, we all noticed that it was merely a rant about an ideology that you do not agree with and had little, if any, basis in fact.
He even said 50s cars don't look nice!

Oh hey, here are some pics!

I like motorcycles. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba017.jpg)

I like Cuban food. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba089.jpg)

I got sick of Marti, and the only time I saw Che was here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba122.jpg).

Typical cuban cars (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba013.jpg).

Daily Diatribe Against Communism, better known as DDAC, is the new 'fibre' for capitalists! Decrease your chances of developing high blood pressure, heart disease, and even stroke by indulging in a little DDAC!:p

good old Dee-dack

hehe

Yes, we all noticed that it was merely a rant about an ideology that you do not agree with and had little, if any, basis in fact.

little basis in fact?

do you think that communist regimes are generally oppressive?

(there i go again. never mind. i really want to know about real Cuban mojitos)

He even said 50s cars don't look nice!

Oh hey, here are some pics!

I like motorcycles. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba017.jpg)

I like Cuban food. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba089.jpg)

I got sick of Marti, and the only time I saw Che was here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba122.jpg).

Typical cuban cars (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba013.jpg).

i did not say that 50s cars don't look nice. I said that the reason they're allegedly so prevalent in Cuba was not due chiefly to their good looks.

you must have tried a mojito! come on!

Sinuhue

Did you try a mojito (non-Spanish speakers: mo-HEE-to) while you were there?

And do they eat the now-popular Cuban sandwiches? Or is it a case where we take their flavor and Americanize it? (IE, are cuban sandwiches in the US the same as cuban sandwiches in cuba?)I drank mojitos by the dozen...but my absolute favourite were the fresh piña coladas...though you can't drink many because they really fill you up. I'm really not a fan of sandwiches...regardless of their nationality...but the Cuban ones were pretty good. Simple...always ham, always toasted, with fresh veggies, on very good bread. And not ham like processed or canned ham...but roast ham. I've never had a Cuban sandwich anywhere else though, so I can't really compare. Their pizza is very thin crust, with minimal sause (that tastes just like tomato sauce, not our pizza sauce) with minimal toppings, usually folded up and eaten like a sandwhich. It was okay. I don't care for bread, so I'm not a good judge on that though.

you must have tried a mojito! come on!
Tried? I'm the QUEEN of mojitos!

I drank mojitos by the dozen...but my absolute favourite were the fresh piña coladas...though you can't drink many because they really fill you up. I'm really not a fan of sandwiches...regardless of their nationality...but the Cuban ones were pretty good. Simple...always ham, always toasted, with fresh veggies, on very good bread. And not ham like processed or canned ham...but roast ham. I've never had a Cuban sandwich anywhere else though, so I can't really compare. Their pizza is very thin crust, with minimal sause (that tastes just like tomato sauce, not our pizza sauce) with minimal toppings, usually folded up and eaten like a sandwhich. It was okay. I don't care for bread, so I'm not a good judge on that though.

cool. i have had one mojito (at a cubanoamericano-owned place in Milawaukee) and it was great. So fresh, so tart, with what i think were real mint sprigs in it.

do you think that communist regimes are generally oppressive?

(there i go again. never mind. i really want to know about real Cuban mojitos)

Yes. I do think they are oppresive, generally.

What does this have to do with Cuba, specifically.

Please note: Cuba is a socialist state.

i did not say that 50s cars don't look nice. I said that the reason they're allegedly so prevalent in Cuba was not due chiefly to their good looks.
Yeah, I know...just razzing you. It's funny, because in Canada and the US, some of these cars (being in mint, original condition) would be worth a fortune! Cars are insanely expensive in Cuba...(I will not illustrate my complete ignorance of cars here, but rather be very vague, because makes and models mean nothing to me)...a car say from 1990, is worth about $10,000US. So hardly anyone can afford them. Plus, you aren't really supposed to sell your car, but it happens a lot. The newer cars you'll see are reserved for tourist rentals. Still, packed though they are, the trains and buses are pretty reliable forms of transportation, and extremely affordable. After the heavy pollution I experienced in Havana, I was very glad to be back in other cities that didn't have as many vehicles. I hope they DON'T start going crazy buying cars. There literally isn't the room (look at these streets! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba020.jpg)), and they don't need more pollution. I spoke to a couple of Venezuelans who were complaing that because of the extremely low cost of gas in Venezuela, EVERYONE was driving, and the pollution levels had really jumped.

cool. i have had one mojito (at a cubanoamericano-owned place in Milawaukee) and it was great. So fresh, so tart, with what i think were real mint sprigs in it.
Yup. Mint leaves, sugar, fresh lime or lemon, water, and lots of rum. Stop it. I'm salivating!

La Habana and the others, you are really are doing many fallacies.

Sinuhue never claimed Cuba is a free paradise. She never said there is no human rights problem at all in Cuba. She said it's not as awful as many want us to believe it is, and you failed to show a single fact against that. You just difform what she says in order to discredit her, that's not a way to argue.

Then, you make broad approximations, like showing some claim about human rights violation done by Amnesty which don't speak about torture or assassinations, and then you say "yes there is torture, Amnesty says it". Yes there are problems in Cuba. But no, there is no torture. And you failed to show us that either Amnesty speaks about it nor to show us any fact in this direction.

So please stop harassing Sinuhue, who is at least not using any fallacies or broad approximations. You may disagree with her, but then, at least, be honest in the way you argue, and back your claims.

Oh, and if you go to Cuba, folks...stuff toilet paper into your pockets. If there is someone selling paper in the bathroom, please pay them...but if there is no one there, that generally means no TP, and you don't always notice in time.

I stand by my Post on Jesse Jackson and the former Political Prisoner who showed his scars on national TV news in front of Jesse Jackson.

I will keep trying to find the link or news story on this subject.

I did not bring up the Amenesty International information.

I have not harrassed Sinuhue.

I have always defended my positions on any subject without insulting or calling anyone personal names as I have seen other fellow nations on some threads.

I have not harrassed Sinuhue.


This is true.

Oh, and if you go to Cuba, folks...stuff toilet paper into your pockets. If there is someone selling paper in the bathroom, please pay them...but if there is no one there, that generally means no TP, and you don't always notice in time.


My neighbor, up until recently, often sent TP and soap-bar and powdered-to Cuba. I'm not exactly certain how it was routed to get there.
She often got e boxes of cigars too.
Something changed iin the last 6 mos or so and she cant do either anymore.

Tried? I'm the QUEEN of mojitos!
You're the queen of the harpies-you happen to drink Mojitos

I like Cuban food. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba089.jpg)


Hehe... I remember Cuban rice and beans. They fed us stacks of the stuff, more than we could possibly eat.

I'd show you my photos, but I didn't use a digital, just an old-style throwaway. :( (I've never really trusted digitals)

Your assertions have been general - that Cuba is a free, wonderful, fear-free political paradise, where no one is arrested for political reasons

No, she hasn't. Quote her on it.

The fact is that Cubans do feel free to express their political opinions, and to criticise Castro in front of people they don't even know. I know that, because I've witnessed it. Because Cubans have told me what they think on the matter, good or bad.

Hehe... I remember Cuban rice and beans. They fed us stacks of the stuff, more than we could possibly eat. Yes...way more food than was humanly possible to consume. This (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba089.jpg) and this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba090.jpg) were one meal, for two people. We never, ever managed to eat the whole meal, and they would never listen to us and make half as much.

However, the entire meal cost them about $4 CUC to prepare, and they charged us $20 CUC. So they still made quite the profit. When we stayed at other people's houses (who weren't renting, we just paid a fee to the government in order to be allowed to stay there) we bought all the food and helped cook it. We asked how much they normally ate for a meal, and it wasn't near what we were being served (of course). About half our 'regular' meals for a family of four. Even still, my husband says it was a lot more than they ever ate growing up in Chile. So Cubans don't consume a huge amount of calories, but they aren't often going hungry either.

No, she hasn't. Quote her on it.

The fact is that Cubans do feel free to express their political opinions, and to criticise Castro in front of people they don't even know. I know that, because I've witnessed it. Because Cubans have told me what they think on the matter, good or bad.
Oh, he'll admit to that, then tell you to go to Cuba and try to start another political party, because THEN you'll be in trouble, and 'blah blah blah'. Don't even bother...Kimchi is playing a game, and it's no fun if no one plays with him.

Yes...way more food than was humanly possible to consume. This (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba089.jpg) and this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/sinuhue/cuba090.jpg) were one meal, for two people. We never, ever managed to eat the whole meal, and they would never listen to us and make half as much.

However, the entire meal cost them about $4 CUC to prepare, and they charged us $20 CUC.

*nods* Wherever in the country you go, it seems they make the most profit out of you through meals. And by giving you more than you can actually eat, they can charge you more. Except one place in Havana, where meals weren't provided, but they were housing four of us (whereas they were legally entitled only to house two), so they didn't declare two of us, and made a tidy profit that way. ;)

20 CUC for one meal does seem a lot, though. I can't remember how much I paid, but I seem to remember it being about 6 CUC per (evening) meal. (Non-vegetarians paid 8, I think).


Oh, he'll admit to that, then tell you to go to Cuba and try to start another political party, because THEN you'll be in trouble, and 'blah blah blah'. Don't even bother...Kimchi is playing a game, and it's no fun if no one plays with him.


Yes, you're probably right... Ah, well, if he's enjoying himself. :D

Okay, I'll just go into some of the crap I keep hearing from people about Cuba...
Assuming that's all true: YAY COMMUNISM! IT WORKED! SEE IT WORKED! We always knew it would, but nobody would believe us.

20 CUC for one meal does seem a lot, though. I can't remember how much I paid, but I seem to remember it being about 6 CUC per (evening) meal. (Non-vegetarians paid 8, I think).


Actually, I'm mistaken...the $20 CUC was for breakfast and supper. Breakfast consisted of a loaf of bread, butter, jam, a plate of cheese (awesome cheese by the way, especially if you like the gouda variety), a plate of fresh fruit, a tortilla (which is an omelet fried to shit...I don't care for them actually), fried ham garnished with tomatoes, fresh fruit juice and café con leche. Breakfast also was more than we could possibly eat. So overall, we spent very little on meals at that one house. In Havana, we paid much more, and the food sucked. In Playa Giron, we payed about the same just for supper, no breakfast...but we were eating like two lobster tails each plus the rest of the huge meal. I certainly don't begrudge the cost of meals, even if I know for a fact they're making a killing off it. It's what allows them to employ about four people to help out.

I'm hungry now:(

I can safely say that if I spoke better(that is any) Spanish I'd be looking for a flight to Cuba right now. Sounds sweet.

I can safely say that if I spoke better(that is any) Spanish I'd be looking for a flight to Cuba right now. Sounds sweet.
Mmmm...language is kind of the catch. You'll miss a lot without it. Like anywhere, you will see things that you don't understand (people lining the road, waiting for something...), and unless you can ask someone about it, you'll be left mystified (they're waiting for someone to pick them up because carpooling is the norm in Cuba). Situations might seem threatening or strange to you if you don't understand what is happening. I feel extremely comfortable in Latin America because I speak Spanish, but I certainly wouldn't have that level of comfort in say, China. I'd want to go there with someone who knew the place, and the language. So...hook up with a hot Irish person who speaks Spanish, and check Cuba out!

Mmmm...language is kind of the catch. You'll miss a lot without it. Like anywhere, you will see things that you don't understand (people lining the road, waiting for something...), and unless you can ask someone about it, you'll be left mystified (they're waiting for someone to pick them up because carpooling is the norm in Cuba). Situations might seem threatening or strange to you if you don't understand what is happening. I feel extremely comfortable in Latin America because I speak Spanish, but I certainly wouldn't have that level of comfort in say, China. I'd want to go there with someone who knew the place, and the language. So...hook up with a hot Irish person who speaks Spanish, and check Cuba out!

That's actually a great idea. I can't believe I hadn't thought of it, I'm doing something similar(hopefully) with a girl who speaks french. Although all we have regarding plans are to go to a nude beach and have lots of sex, not necessarily at the same time ;)
I wouldn't really want to go anywhere if I didnt know a language or it was touristy enough to expect some level of english or german. Eg I'd be more than happy to go back to spain, cos the town I was in featured a chinese waiter who spoke english, french, spanish, finnish, german, Schweizer Deutch, chinese, AND IRISH!

Eg I'd be more than happy to go back to spain, cos the town I was in featured a chinese waiter who spoke english, french, spanish, finnish, german, Schweizer Deutch, chinese, AND IRISH!
Seriously? Gaelic? Who the hell outside of Ireland speaks Irish????

Seriously? Gaelic? Who the hell outside of Ireland speaks Irish????
This guy it seems. Though admitedly he didnt speak much. Still damn impressive though. He's surely the only one. Well one of very very few.

glad you had fun. I must now figure out a way to get down there for cheap (oh, and legal.) I was really expecting you and fidel to have exchanged e-mails by now.

glad you had fun. I must now figure out a way to get down there for cheap (oh, and legal.) I was really expecting you and fidel to have exchanged e-mails by now.
>.> <.<
Cough CoughSinuhue=FidelCough

glad you had fun. I must now figure out a way to get down there for cheap (oh, and legal.) I was really expecting you and fidel to have exchanged e-mails by now.
He's not so much into the email. We use snail mail instead.

>.> <.<
Cough CoughSinuhue=FidelCough
Fidel is posing as a 29 year old Cree woman from Canada? I'm twisted, I am!

Fidel is posing as a 29 year old Cree woman from Canada? I'm twisted, I am!
It's brilliant! They're all searching for some 80 year old Cuban...they'll never think to look for a 29 year old Cree in Canada!

He's not so much into the email. We use snail mail instead.

does Fidel even have a computer?

aren't they still using technology from the 50s?

hehe