NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, I'm back after two short/long weeks, and I have to say that my head is still reeling. We avoided Varadero, stayed completely out of the tourist areas, and I'm a bit ashamed to say that I had internalised more anti-Cuban propaganda than I thought. It was a bit of a shock for me to have these biases uncovered...and proven utterly false.

I have traveled all over South and Central America, and I have to say that I love Cuba the best. Love love love, as in will be visiting once a year if at all possible. I can not believe the crap people believe about this country, either through sheer ignorance (and I don't mean that in a bad way...when you don't know, you just don't know) or willful deception (this would be the one I mean in a bad way). I can't give you the life story of every Cuban, or the complete socio-political analysis of the country, but there are a few myths I can debunk for those of you interested.

So for those of you who are thinking of traveling to Cuba, or are just interested in what it's like, ask away...if I can answer you, I will:)

That's very enheartening. I'm glad you had a good time.

That's very enheartening. I'm glad you had a good time.
It was so beyond a good time...the only downer was that we left our daughters behind. Next time they will absolutely be traveling with us!

welcome back

have you written up a diary of your trip? id love to read it.

as an american, i wont be visiting cuba anytime soon so id just like to enjoy your trip vicariously.

welcome back :fluffle:
glad you had a good time... so what are these myths and lies you'll be debunking?

and any general advice, cos i would love to go there one day? :)

welcome back

have you written up a diary of your trip? id love to read it.

as an american, i wont be visiting cuba anytime soon so id just like to enjoy your trip vicariously.
Hmmm...a diary...nope. I was too busy drinking rum:) I'm a bit 'tripped' out in terms of going over what we did, but once I get the photos organised, I'm doing a bit of a presentation at work here.

Hmm...I was contemplating visiting next year...if it's really that good, I might just do it.

I'd like to go to Cuba to see for myself. And welcome back.

Notice that I got deleted during your absence. :p

Hmm...I was contemplating visiting next year...if it's really that good, I might just do it.
A friend of mine goes to Havana every six months, just because the prostitutes are inexpensive AND extremely good looking.

welcome back :fluffle:
glad you had a good time... so what are these myths and lies you'll be debunking?

and any general advice, cos i would love to go there one day? :)
Okay, I'll just go into some of the crap I keep hearing from people about Cuba.

MYTHS:
1) Tourists are not allowed out of the tourist areas.
False. You can travel where you damn well please. Notable exceptions would be into places like military zones (duh) and...oh, prisons I suppose. Though I'm sure they'd let you in if you had a compelling reason.

2) Cuba is dangerous.
False. It's the bloody safest country I've ever been in, and I'm including Canada. Oh, there are petty thefts and such...don't fall asleep on the beach, with your purse beside you and expect to wake up with it still there (though you might be surprised to find it actually is). Violent crimes are almost unheard of...and when they do happen, they are dealt with quickly. There IS a zero tolerance policy towards drugs...so keep your pot at home. The police are friendly as hell, won't take bribes, and you don't get hassled at checkpoints or anything like that, and despite Cuba's reputation for harsh laws, it's pretty relaxed.

3) Cubans just want to get out of Cuba.
Cubans have an overwhelming feeling of contempt and pity for those (usually young) people who think that they can do better elsewhere. The older folks, especially those who lived through the Batista years, and have seen the changes, are rock solid in their support of the social freedoms Cuba offers. Younger people have a rather glamorised view of the West, and tend to be the ones wanting to work with tourists, or jump ship. But do they hate Cuba? Hardly. Even the ones jonesing to visit the US are proud of Cuba's low crime rate, it's health care and education system...and who could hate the climate? Most of the longing to 'go somewhere else' is the same as it is anywhere...the desire to find some greener grass, shake things up, chase a dream somewhere else. That secret anti-Castro sentiment we've been told exists everywhere is AWFULLY secret...so secret that most Cubans will never even know they feel it:)

More to follow....

Good that you enjoyed your trip :)

I'm really interested about the myths and lies you can debuke. It's hard to have unbiased information about Cuba, so any are most welcomed.

...and who could hate the climate?
Yeah! Even hurricanes love it. ;)

A friend of mine goes to Havana every six months, just because the prostitutes are inexpensive AND extremely good looking.

Eh, well, that wasn't really the reason.

Eh, well, that wasn't really the reason.
Hey, I didn't say what he did with the prostitutes, because that would <<this section removed to prevent violation of NS terms of service>>

A friend of mine goes to Havana every six months, just because the prostitutes are inexpensive AND extremely good looking.
How nice.

Prostitution has declined considerably throughout most of Cuba...even in Havana it's not as open as it once was. During the construction boom in the 90s, when Varadero and other resort hotspots were being touted around the world, and tourists started flocking to the beautiful beaches, little shanty towns of prostitutes sprung up to meet tourist needs. Rather than pretend that just because prostitution was illegal, it simply wasn't happening, the government sent these women (and men) back to their towns, froze building permits in Varadero, and has kept a sharp eye on illegal business in the tourist areas. One of the results of this is that while you can still get yourself a Cuban girlfriend, you can't shack up with her in your hotel room, no legal casa particular (like a bed and breakfast) will let her in with you unless she shows her ID, and if your girlfriend is traced (via her ID) shacking up with more than three tourists, she is investigated for prostitution. You will not find downtrodden prostitutes lining the streets, you will not find children being sold for sex. What you WILL find is expensive clubs full of nothing but jineteras (prostitutes) in big centres like Havana. The cover fee is generally more than a month's salary for the average Cuban, and if you think those cute women flirting with you are doing it for your looks, you're an idiot. As well, a lot of those jineteras aren't hardcore prostitutes...they are doctors, teachers, professional women looking for a fling...just like the tourists who come to Cuba for sex.

Cubans are extremely liberal minded about sex...you can have a pretty good time down there...but it isn't the kind of seedy, horribly abusive system of prositution you'll see in most countries...again, including my own.

Good that you enjoyed your trip :)

I'm really interested about the myths and lies you can debuke. It's hard to have unbiased information about Cuba, so any are most welcomed.
There is no such thing as unbiased information.

But any questions you have, I'll gladly answer.

Tell us some more about education, medical care etc. I think they're doing pretty well there, considering the continuing economic boycot.

Any idea what might happen when Fidel dies?

Welcome back, Sinuhue! I thought that by now you would be heading the revolución.

Yeah! Even hurricanes love it. ;)
Weird thing about hurricanes...they've started happening out of season there. Then again, when I left from Calgary, the temperature was -11 (when it should have been about -20), and I came back to -2 weather. Hardly normal for us. The climate everywhere is all wacky.

Anyway, the other thing about hurricanes is that there are rarely any casualties because Cuba has an excellent warning system, and method of dealing with these seasonal storms. Even Hurricane Michelle, which ravaged much of the region, didn't affect Cuba as badly as it did other countries. Houses were lost...but lives weren't...and the reconstruction was swift.

It's nice to see that all of this "Cubans hate Castro" is a load of bullshit propaganda.

Cuba, I shall visit you when I get the money to do so. :D

Cuba sounds great. I might have to get a Canadian citizenship thing so I can go around and visit more countries. ;)

Cuba sounds great. I might have to get a Canadian citizenship thing so I can go around and visit more countries. ;)

Just make a t-shirt with a bunch of kids stomping on the American flag as a logo. That should make you some friends. :D

I'm gonna have to add Cuba as one of my places to visit. It's still behind Japan, Germany, Norway, and Italy though.

Tell us some more about education, medical care etc. I think they're doing pretty well there, considering the continuing economic boycot.

Any idea what might happen when Fidel dies?
Education...ay! Well, it's free, all the way up to University. When they boast of 0% illiteracy, I don't think they are far off the mark. It's extremely hard to drop out of school, and education is a huge priority. It's unthinkable for most cubans to not finish school. I spent a bit of time in an elementary school and a middle-level school in Matanzas out of professional curiosity. It was scary! These little kids were SHARP! I asked questions about current events, geography, math, literature...anyway. There are routine education programs which seek out older people and try to convince them to take university programs. If you do go, you get room and board for the duration of your studies. It's insane...most of the people I met had attended University and were working in their field...ALL of the people I met had at least finished high school. Military service for men is compulsory at age 18, for two years UNLESS they are attending post-secondary, but even this stops kids from graduating with no prospects.

As for health care, the main problem they face is shortages in medicine. But the system is still incredible. One of the ladies who cooked in a house we stayed at has a daughter with a cleft palate. She's had 14 operations to correct it...and every time they went to the hospital, the girl, and her family were given free room and board until the girl recovered. Right now, there is something called Operation Miracle going on, where Bolivians are being flown into Cuba to have eye operations (for cataracts, or for vision correction), being put up in homes or other facilities for the duration of their recovery, and then sent home. Cuba sends out more doctors and medical aid than any other country in the world.

As for what will happen when Fidel dies? Ah, well, I too once believed that Cuba would fall apart when that happens, but after speaking to so many people about it, I realise that Cuba is NOT a cult of Fidel. People are educated, sharp, and aware of what is happening in Cuba and around the world. Nor is it an absolute dictatorship. There is more direct REAL democracy there than in my own country...with people in neighbourhoods, cities, and provinces making real decisions about what is done in those areas. When Fidel dies, Cuba will go on as Cuba.

Welcome back, Sinuhue! I thought that by now you would be heading the revolución.
Shhhh. It's going to be a hard battle, but I believe that with a lifetime of sacrifice, Canada can stop its right wing spiral into hell...

my only problem with cuba is uncle fidel should have retired to elder statesmen years ago, when he finally dies their almost certainly won't be a smooth transition of power. the cult of personality and a strong leaders will can hold a state on a political course for as long as he lives, but the modern track record for its continuation beyond his death is rather dismal. sure cuba will go on, but i can't see the revolution survive, fidel made the classic error of connecting it to closely with himself. plus the us and the rightwibng miami thugs will swoop down like vultures to pick at his corpse.

Cuba sounds great. I might have to get a Canadian citizenship thing so I can go around and visit more countries. ;)
I met a lot of yanks in Cuba. They just fly in through Mexico or Canada. US tourists are pretty common in Cuba. Most aren't too worried about fines if they get caught...it's actually pretty rare to get busted for it. They don't bother to stamp your passport in Cuba...they just stamp your tourist visa.

Just make a t-shirt with a bunch of kids stomping on the American flag as a logo. That should make you some friends. :D
It was kind of funny actually...I was all ready to hear some frothy anti-US stuff...and I heard it...but it was directed at policies, and never at people. Many Cubans have relatives in the US, or in other nations, and don't tend to hate USians the way we think they do. As I said, there is a fair amount of tourism to Cuba from the US (via other countries), and people love telling you stories about this 'great USian' that visited last week...the ones with the bad reputation are the Italians and the Russians.

my only problem with cuba is uncle fidel should have retired to elder statesmen years ago, when he finally dies their almost certainly won't be a smooth transition of power. the cult of personality and a strong leaders will can hold a state on a political course for as long as he lives, but the modern track record for its continuation beyond his death is rather dismal. sure cuba will go on, but i can't see the revolution survive, fidel made the classic error of connecting it to closely with himself. plus the us and the rightwibng miami thugs will swoop down like vultures to pick at his corpse.
Don't lose hope...Fidel isn't the only thing keeping Cuba together. Not by far. And you won't see a single statue of Fidel in Cuba....but you WILL get sick to death of Jose Marti:) The 'cult of Fidel' is a myth.

It was kind of funny actually...I was all ready to hear some frothy anti-US stuff...and I heard it...but it was directed at policies, and never at people. Many Cubans have relatives in the US, or in other nations, and don't tend to hate USians the way we think they do. As I said, there is a fair amount of tourism to Cuba from the US (via other countries), and people love telling you stories about this 'great USian' that visited last week...the ones with the bad reputation are the Italians and the Russians.

Yeah, apparently Americans are quite nice and open on average. :p

Yeah, apparently Americans are quite nice and open on average. :p
Well, the ones who go to Cuba tend not to be the rabid anti-socialists, but rather the ones who genuinely want to see what all the fuss is about. Cubans have a fair amount of respect for the USians who go to Cuba, because everyone knows the kind of pressure there is to keep them from visiting...it takes a bit of gumption to get over that pressure and go anyway.

BTW: what did you get deleted for?

Yeah, apparently Americans are quite nice and open on average. :pWell.. what kind of US citizen do you expect to visit Cuba?

Mostly Libertarians.. and guess what? Lebertarians like me... are open minded peoples.

I do not expect Neocons to visit Cuba any time soon.

Any idea what might happen when Fidel dies?
Anyone can tell you that: America will support unquestioningly whatever douche wants to be friends with them while the president is claiming the justice he is doing the country by turning it around from the communist hellhole it once was and taking pictures for national tv with the guy.

Well.. waht kind of US citizen do you expect to visit Cuba?

and guess what? Lebetarians like me... are open minded peoples.

I do not expect Neocons to visit Cuba any time soon.

I would expect a Neocon there before a Democrat. They're still hard up for JFK.

Anyone can tell you that: America will support unquestioningly whatever douche wants to be friends with them while the president is claiming the justice he is doing the country by turning it around from the communist hellhole it once was and taking pictures for national tv with the guy.
Fidel is not the sum total of the Cuba government. And the rest of the government is not about to commit suicide when Fidel dies.

Don't lose hope...Fidel isn't the only thing keeping Cuba together. Not by far. And you won't see a single statue of Fidel in Cuba....but you WILL get sick to death of Jose Marti:) The 'cult of Fidel' is a myth.
not that i wish ill for castro, but this would be a relatively good time for cuba to transition with the strong support in the rest of latin america for leftist governments, if he had died in the 80s i shutter to think what would have happened(i still miss the sandinistas though i'm sure they still exist in the opposition in nicaragua).

I would expect a Neocon there before a Democrat.you expect Neocons to break -Uncle Bushios- stupid embargo?

Fidel is not the sum total of the Cuba government. And the rest of the government is not about to commit suicide when Fidel dies.
I never said the country would screw itself over, I said a political leader would do it while the US supports them whole-heartedly.

I didn't even make a slight reference to Fidel in my post, were you brainwashed while you were there? Because you are saying the same thing over and over even when it need not be said.

you expect Neocons to break -Uncle Bushios- stupid embargo?

It's JFK's emargo.

you expect Neocons to break -Uncle Bushios- stupid embargo?
don't kid yourself bush may have strangthen that embargo but every president since kennedy has maintained it, even centrist uncle bill just weakened it a little bit.

not that i wish ill for castro, but this would be a relatively good time for cuba to transition with the strong support in the rest of latin america for leftist governments, if he had died in the 80s i shutter to think what would have happened(i still miss the sandinistas though i'm sure they still exist in the opposition in nicaragua).
I agree with this being a better time for Cuba than the 80s...but here is what people don't seem to grasp about the political situation in Cuba. There is one party, but the people you vote in (YES, there ARE ROUTINE ELECTIONS AT ALL LEVELS) represent YOU, not just the party. In Canada, you vote someone in, and they represent their party...not the constituents. It's the polar opposite in Cuba. Fidel himself has to be reelected in his riding every time. That he IS reelected does not mean that people are forced to vote for him...no more than the politician in my riding being reelected for 30 YEARS STRAIGHT means that people here are forced to vote for him. So again...though the US has a hard on for Fidel, the death of said person is not going to spell doom for Cuba.

I never said the country would screw itself over, I said a political leader would do it while the US supports them whole-heartedly.
You'll certainly see a move from the Cuban exile community in Miami to "retake what is rightfully theirs," as they claim. I'd imagine they'll find a chilly reception waiting for them if they try it.

It's JFK's emargo.The stupid embargo is kept alive by Neocon Political Forces...

don't kid yourself bush may have strangthen that embargo but every president since kennedy has maintained it, even centrist uncle bill just weakened it a little bit.
He didn't have a choice (Billy I mean). The Helms-Burton Act makes it illegal for a US President to stop the embargo while Fidel lives. But Bush is being particularly douchebaggy about it.

You'll certainly see a move from the Cuban exile community in Miami to "retake what is rightfully theirs," as they claim. I'd imagine they'll find a chilly reception waiting for them if they try it.
I went to the Bay of Pigs, and more specifically to Playa Giron, where the invasion met its doom...people there were all too happy to tell us how they would receive the Miami gusanos if they wanted another go at it:)

I agree with this being a better time for Cuba than the 80s...but here is what people don't seem to grasp about the political situation in Cuba. There is one party, but the people you vote in (YES, there ARE ROUTINE ELECTIONS AT ALL LEVELS) represent YOU, not just the party. In Canada, you vote someone in, and they represent their party...not the constituents. It's the polar opposite in Cuba. Fidel himself has to be reelected in his riding every time. That he IS reelected does not mean that people are forced to vote for him...no more than the politician in my riding being reelected for 30 YEARS STRAIGHT means that people here are forced to vote for him. So again...though the US has a hard on for Fidel, the death of said person is not going to spell doom for Cuba.

yeah my congressman and state legislators routinely run unopposed, american has a strange skewed prospective on uncontested elections at home as opposed to abroad.

yeah my congressman and state legislators routinely run unopposed, american has a strange skewed prospective on uncontested elections at home as opposed to abroad.
So do Canadians:)

Well, the ones who go to Cuba tend not to be the rabid anti-socialists, but rather the ones who genuinely want to see what all the fuss is about. Cubans have a fair amount of respect for the USians who go to Cuba, because everyone knows the kind of pressure there is to keep them from visiting...it takes a bit of gumption to get over that pressure and go anyway.

BTW: what did you get deleted for?

Yeah, true.

*Because I threatened to beat the crap out of and molest VoteEarly. It was totally worth it.

He didn't have a choice (Billy I mean). The Helms-Burton Act makes it illegal for a US President to stop the embargo while Fidel lives. But Bush is being particularly douchebaggy about it.
that Law is a turd and even a Chimp like il_Bushio should know better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act

The Helms-Burton act was condemned by the Council of Europe, the European Union, Canada, and other U.S. allies that enjoy normal trade relations with Cuba. The law contained provisions that sought to punish non-U.S. companies for engaging in trade with Cuba, which governments and businesses in other countries argued run counter to the spirit of international law and sovereignty.

The law has also been condemned by humanitarian groups because, these groups argue, sanctions against an entire country will affect only the innocent population but not the leaders.
Bill Clinton and George W. Bush both signed a provision allowing for a waiver of the law. It is currently not being enforced.

Yeah, true.

*Because I threatened to beat the crap out of and molest VoteEarly. It was totally worth it.
They let him back????????????

The stupid embargo is kept alive by Neocon Political Forces...

And every other president before Bush. The animosity towards Bush I see in you borderlines on psychosis.

I went to the Bay of Pigs, and more specifically to Playa Giron, where the invasion met its doom...people there were all too happy to tell us how they would receive the Miami gusanos if they wanted another go at it:)
i must admit while i won't wish them on cuba the gusanos are the one immigrant group i wouldn't mind being rid of. they have poisoned south florida politics for 40 years and they are powerful enough virtually no national politician will oppose them. they make the pro isreali lobby and the boston ira supporters look even handed and disinterested by comparison.

They let him back????????????

Nah. Somebody showed his dickery from other forums in a thread on General. I felt it necessary to do my part, and I did. :D

And every other president before Bush. The animosity towards Bush I see in you borderlines on psychosis.

You've never met OceanDrive before, have you?

Oh, and Sinuhue - whats the scenery like there? Is it as beautiful as the pictures I've seen?

The stupid embargo is kept alive by Neocon Political Forces...

It's mostly still on because it's been considered political suicide to contradict JFK. There are other benefits to it as well, but the martyr president's shadow is still heavy on that decision.

Sinuhue, I'm glad you had a good time, and I highly recommend you return to see some of the other sights. I was there for three months studying spanish and teaching english, and only 18 at the time. Wow, what an experience. Diving off waterfalls at El Nicho in the mountains, partying at Palatino in downtown Cienfuegos, playing soccer with kids from all over central and south america, then teaching them hockey...the list goes on.

But I think that fantastic swedish-american girl I spent time with was the most vivid memory.

i must admit while i won't wish them on cuba the gusanos are the one immigrant group i wouldn't mind being rid of. they have poisoned south florida politics for 40 years and they are powerful enough virtually no national politician will oppose them. they make the pro isreali lobby and the boston ira supporters look even handed and disinterested by comparison.No kidding. And what most people--even those down here but not in the exile community--don't realize is that this is mostly personal stuff they're fighting over. Most of the major exile families--the politicians anyway--are all related to Fidel's ex-wife. The Lincolns. The Diaz-Balarts. This is all old family feud shit, and it's fucking lunacy. You don't want to see what happens to people who cross them--they own lots of media down here, and you can see your life utterly and completely trashed as a result.

And every other president before Bush. The animosity towards Bush I see in you borderlines on psychosis.
I think Bush is just the symbol for the movement that OceanDrive despises.

And every other president before Bush. The animosity towards Bush I see in you borderlines on psychosis.YEAH..

Bush :sniper: me :D

What did you expect? this :fluffle: ???

Any idea what might happen when Fidel dies?

Fidel is immortal. He doesn't die. Ever look at pictures of him when he gained office? Looks almost exactly the same as he does now. Not to mention he has pretty much outlived every other political leader that was in power when he took, and many there after. Fidel has to be close to 200 years old now, or something.

To sum up: The Fountain of Youth is in Cuba, and Fidel is hording it for his Commie Plinko adgenda. Or something like that.

You've never met OceanDrive before, have you?

Oh, and Sinuhue - whats the scenery like there? Is it as beautiful as the pictures I've seen?
The landscape is beautiful. Rolling hills, palm trees, lots of greenery...and so much coast...the cities are a bit odd-looking to North Americans, but if you've traveled anywhere else in Latin America, you should be used to way the houses look. Lots of OLD homes...we stayed in one that was built in the Spanish colonial style...in 1886. The sea air tends to strip paint, so the outsides might look a bit shabby, but the houses are built for the weather. Cool inside, tile, concrete...open to the wind...I loved it. I found Cuba to be very beautiful...and clean! Yes! Even in Habana, you don't see the garbage and grime that you see in most big cities around the world. Also lacking? Homeless people and beggars. People in Cuba don't pay for housing, and they are given basic food rations per month (which are subsidised 90%).

And all the old cars you can imagine...everywhere! Ladas...oh how I hate Ladas...lots of them, old Buicks, lots of motorcycles with sidecars...and lots of bicycles.

The Helms-Burton act was condemned by the Council of Europe, the European Union, Canada, and other U.S. allies that enjoy normal trade relations with Cuba. The law contained provisions that sought to punish non-U.S. companies for engaging in trade with Cuba, which governments and businesses in other countries argued run counter to the spirit of international law and sovereignty.

The law has also been condemned by humanitarian groups because, these groups argue, sanctions against an entire country will affect only the innocent population but not the leaders.
Bill Clinton and George W. Bush both signed a provision allowing for a waiver of the law. It is currently not being enforced.I've found out that the Helms-Burton act is even more draconian than I thought...though you'll find US products all over the island, no product that is produced with any Cuban material can be sold in the US, or sold through a US company elsewhere. For example, a candy that uses Cuban sugar can not be sold in the US, or sold in Canada by a US company. But somehow, Coca-Cola is ubiquitous in Cuba. Nice double standard.

Okay, I'll just go into some of the crap I keep hearing from people about Cuba.

MYTHS:
1) Tourists are not allowed out of the tourist areas.
False. You can travel where you damn well please. Notable exceptions would be into places like military zones (duh) and...oh, prisons I suppose. Though I'm sure they'd let you in if you had a compelling reason.

And just what was in those "military zones?"


2) Cuba is dangerous.
False. It's the bloody safest country I've ever been in, and I'm including Canada. Oh, there are petty thefts and such...don't fall asleep on the beach, with your purse beside you and expect to wake up with it still there (though you might be surprised to find it actually is). Violent crimes are almost unheard of...and when they do happen, they are dealt with quickly. There IS a zero tolerance policy towards drugs...so keep your pot at home. The police are friendly as hell, won't take bribes, and you don't get hassled at checkpoints or anything like that, and despite Cuba's reputation for harsh laws, it's pretty relaxed.

Whoa, you spend a week or two in a country and you know it's safe? Gosh you know... I've never seen a policeman in the US take bribes. No corruption in the US, therefore. I haven't seen a violent crime recently, the US is a safe country, safer than anywhere else!

And I'm sure the police are friendly... especially around Yanqui tourists.

3) Cubans just want to get out of Cuba.
Cubans have an overwhelming feeling of contempt and pity for those (usually young) people who think that they can do better elsewhere. The older folks, especially those who lived through the Batista years, and have seen the changes, are rock solid in their support of the social freedoms Cuba offers.

How many of the general population did you interview about this?

That secret anti-Castro sentiment we've been told exists everywhere is AWFULLY secret...so secret that most Cubans will never even know they feel it:)

More to follow....

So secret it isn't revealed to casual tourists? Gosh, that's pretty dang secret. Usually in a repressive country, no one feels reluctant to discuss their dissent with some random Canadian. Hell they enjoy discussing it in open public, right near the friendly police! :p

Welcome back, Sinuhue.

Suffice to say, I don't see your experiences as myth-debunking.

I've found out that the Helms-Burton act is even more draconian than I thought...though you'll find US products all over the island, no product that is produced with any Cuban material can be sold in the US, or sold through a US company elsewhere. For example, a candy that uses Cuban sugar can not be sold in the US, or sold in Canada by a US company. But somehow, Coca-Cola is ubiquitous in Cuba. Nice double standard.

Oh, so it's similar to NAFTA then.;)

Bueno, bienvenido devuelta a Canada, espero que lo pasaste bien.

Siempre pa'lante con mi comandante!

And just what was in those "military zones?"



Whoa, you spend a week or two in a country and you know it's safe? Gosh you know... I've never seen a policeman in the US take bribes. No corruption in the US, therefore. I haven't seen a violent crime recently, the US is a safe country, safer than anywhere else!

And I'm sure the police are friendly... especially around Yanqui tourists.



How many of the general population did you interview about this?



So secret it isn't revealed to casual tourists? Gosh, that's pretty dang secret. Usually in a repressive country, no one feels reluctant to discuss their dissent with some random Canadian. Hell they enjoy discussing it in open public, right near the friendly police! :p

Welcome back, Sinuhue.

Suffice to say, I don't see your experiences as myth-debunking.And you've been there how many times?

People in Cuba don't pay for housing, and they are given basic food rations per month (which are subsidised 90%).
Forgive my ignorance of communist countries, but ...what do they spend their wages on, then?

And you've been there how many times?

Zero times. And that's irrelevant to what I said.

Forgive my ignorance of communist countries, but ...what do they spend their wages on, then?

Anything they damn well please, I'm sure.

And for the love of intelligence, PLEASE fix that quote in your signature. Vice President Dan Quayle said that, not Al Gore.

And just what was in those "military zones?" Hot Cubans in uniform:)

Whoa, you spend a week or two in a country and you know it's safe? Gosh you know... I've never seen a policeman in the US take bribes. No corruption in the US, therefore. I haven't seen a violent crime recently, the US is a safe country, safer than anywhere else!
When you can walk around downtown Habana at 3 am, and not even get propositioned (wah!) you can pretty much say the place is safe. Violent crime is almost unheard of in Cuba. I wouldn't even walk down the street at 3am in Edmonton, Alberta and feel safe. And I wouldn't even walk down the streets alone in broad daylight in most Latin American cities...Santiago (Chile), Lima (Peru) being the two most obvious examples of terror-inducing crime.


And I'm sure the police are friendly... especially around Yanqui tourists. Actually, Cubans in general are ridiculously friendly...you never hear people yelling at each other in anger, and I hardly even heard people swearing...not even during rush hour, near accidents, pedestrians jumping in front of vehicles and so on...people honk, smile and wave, then go about their business. In Canada, such incidents would incite road rage. In Peru, I stayed the hell away from the police...who were likely to demand a bribe, hassle you, perhaps bring you in for 'questioning'...scary people. Cuban cops were awesome.



How many of the general population did you interview about this?More than you have:)


So secret it isn't revealed to casual tourists? Gosh, that's pretty dang secret. Usually in a repressive country, no one feels reluctant to discuss their dissent with some random Canadian. Hell they enjoy discussing it in open public, right near the friendly police! :p Cubans will talk to you about absolutely anything. They are incredibly open, and vocal about their opinions.

Welcome back, Sinuhue.

Suffice to say, I don't see your experiences as myth-debunking.
Let me just say this...those of you who like to talk a lot of shit about Cuba (not aimed at you SB, because I don't actually recall you saying anything at all about Cuba)...SHUT UP. Because the majority of you haven't even been there. Don't take my word for it. Don't take anyone's word for it. Go see for yourself. But nothing is worse than someone parroting shit that someone ELSE tells them. Yanks complain when people yap about the US. Hell...EVERYONE hates it when people talk about their country having never been there. And sorry...going to the resorts doesn't mean you've seen Cuba...in fact, I really wanted to bitch slap some tourists on our plane who complained about this, that, and the other thing and said they didn't like Cuba. Well...they never saw it.

Anything they damn well please, I'm sure.

And for the love of intelligence, PLEASE fix that quote in your signature. Vice President Dan Quayle said that, not Al Gore.
Fixed, thank you. I'd forgotten it was there.

Fixed, thank you. I'd forgotten it was there.

Okay, good. For a minute there I thought you were a classic Gore basher.

Okay, good. For a minute there I thought you were a classic Gore basher.
No, I just liked the quote. Whomever said it.

Hot Cubans in uniform:)


And how many political prisoners? Oh that's right, you wouldn't know because that myth is not one the Cubans allow to be debunked!

When you can walk around downtown Habana at 3 am, and not even get propositioned (wah!) you can pretty much say the place is safe.

Eh. Or it could mean that no one is interested in you. ;)

Violent crime is almost unheard of in Cuba. I wouldn't even walk down the street at 3am in Edmonton, Alberta and feel safe. And I wouldn't even walk down the streets alone in broad daylight in most Latin American cities...Santiago (Chile), Lima (Peru) being the two most obvious examples of terror-inducing crime.

Feeling safe is not the same thing as being safe. What's the old story about the man falling out the window? "So far so good... so far so good... so far *splat*"

Actually, Cubans in general are ridiculously friendly...you never hear people yelling at each other in anger, and I hardly even heard people swearing...not even during rush hour, near accidents, pedestrians jumping in front of vehicles and so on...people honk, smile and wave, then go about their business. In Canada, such incidents would incite road rage. In Peru, I stayed the hell away from the police...who were likely to demand a bribe, hassle you, perhaps bring you in for 'questioning'...scary people. Cuban cops were awesome.

Okay, so they're friendly. But it's not a myth that Cubans are inherently sourpusses.

And again the cops most likely just know how to behave around comparitively wealthy foreign tourists. The closer you are to the US the more you tiptoe around their assets. Peru is much farther away and has less incentive to make it's police behave.

More than you have:)

Big deal. Statistically speaking you're just generalizing based off a few. I mean shit, I've never encountered violent criminals in my life in the US, does that seriously mean they don't exist?

Forgive my ignorance of communist countries, but ...what do they spend their wages on, then?
Ok, let me break it down a bit, because this was the part I was MOST interested in. Ok, again, Cubans don't pay for their homes. Land is state owned, so you get a permit to live on it, but you don't own it, and therefore can not sell it, or the house. Energy is subsidised...electricity and gas for homes, up to a certain level of usage, then it gets expensive (so you'll only find air conditioners in businesses and casas that have licenses to rent). Everyone gets a libreta, which is a ration book, for a certain amount of food a month. Of course, if you want more than just the extreme basics, you need to supplement this ration. Now, there are two currencies in Cuba right now...the convertible peso, which is stronger than the US dollar, and the moneda nacional...the national money, also called a peso. The MN (moneda nacional) is worth about 1/24 of a dollar. Tomatoes in this season are worth 3 MN pesos a kilo. That's a few pennies. The expensive foods are the imported 'luxury goods'. Cookies, crackers, anything in a can...they cost what they do in Canada or the US, which is REALLY expensive for Cubans. Fresh fruit, veggies, seafood...it's all very affordable for Cubans. However, material goods such as clothes, electronics, and so on are very expensive. A pair of jeans may cost about $12 US, which is cheap for us...but when a fisherman makes about $14 a month, it's an incredible expense. So they spend their money on the most important things first...a new tire for the bicycle. Construction materials for a room. Wants come AFTER needs, which is kind of how they should be. In Habana, we met a mechanic (working illegally) who made $40 a month...doctors make about $30. The people who rent out their houses make a lot of money...even after the staggering licensing fees and taxes, so you're starting to see more of a gap between the 'rich' and the poor...but I suspect that eventually those houses will be monitored more to catch 'cheating' (not claming meals that were paid for and so on).

So people save like crazy to buy things we take for granted...clothes being the most expensive (well, electronic goods are outrageously expensive for them...but a lot of people don't even bother). They also seem to appreciate these things more...but THINGS aren't that important. Being social, playing domino, drinking rum, working hard, then enjoying your time off...THAT is the focus there. It kind of sets your head to spinning.

And how many political prisoners? Oh that's right, you wouldn't know because that myth is not one the Cubans allow to be debunked! The biggest freedoms that are repressed in Cuba are the freedoms to accumulate wealth. To offset that, Cubans have social freedoms such as free housing, free healthcare and education, and so on. It works for them. I think it could work for us...but it's a difference in ideologies is all.



Eh. Or it could mean that no one is interested in you. ;) Yeah, that's why I cried:) No, seriously...I was all prepared to fend off the hot men (and then capitulate of course) like you have to anywhere else in Latin America...but the men were too polite. Oh, they made comments and looked at you and such...but they weren't as agressive as I'm used to:(



Feeling safe is not the same thing as being safe. What's the old story about the man falling out the window? "So far so good... so far so good... so far *splat*"

Okay, so they're friendly. But it's not a myth that Cubans are inherently sourpusses.

And again the cops most likely just know how to behave around comparitively wealthy foreign tourists. The closer you are to the US the more you tiptoe around their assets. Peru is much farther away and has less incentive to make it's police behave. *shrugs* Whatever, SB. Frankly, my views on this are more valid than yours, having actually been there. It doesn't mean I'm completely right, but it does mean I'm not speaking from total ignorance. Which is all I'd like other people to stop doing.

So people save like crazy to buy things we take for granted...clothes being the most expensive (well, electronic goods are outrageously expensive for them...but a lot of people don't even bother). They also seem to appreciate these things more...but THINGS aren't that important. Being social, playing domino, drinking rum, working hard, then enjoying your time off...THAT is the focus there. It kind of sets your head to spinning.
That's funny, because those are all things I do too, except I get payed what the work is worth on the market, and my nations GDP is a bit higher than $3,600/year.
But all in all, it seems like a Socialists wet dream. :rolleyes:

That's funny, because those are all things I do too, except I get payed what the work is worth on the market, and my nations GDP is a bit higher than $3,600/year.
But all in all, it seems like a Socialists wet dream. :rolleyes:

They also get paid what the work is worth on the market. It's just a different market.

And just so you know, the socialist wet dream involves having the USian government stop involving itself in the politics of other countries.

my only problem with cuba is uncle fidel should have retired to elder statesmen years ago, when he finally dies their almost certainly won't be a smooth transition of power. the cult of personality and a strong leaders will can hold a state on a political course for as long as he lives, but the modern track record for its continuation beyond his death is rather dismal. sure cuba will go on, but i can't see the revolution survive, fidel made the classic error of connecting it to closely with himself. plus the us and the rightwibng miami thugs will swoop down like vultures to pick at his corpse.

I Accept your view as your view, Miami Thugs, but what about the Cuban government Mafia, no one ever talks about that?

That's funny, because those are all things I do too, except I get payed what the work is worth on the market, and my nations GDP is a bit higher than $3,600/year. Which means what? So you get paid more...but you also pay out more. You can't say Cubans have a significiantly lower quality of life.
But all in all, it seems like a Socialists wet dream. :rolleyes:Well, if it's a socialist wet dream to prefer making sure that everyone in your nation can have enough to eat, get an education, and have access to health care, housing and so on instead of just accumulating wealth (for what purpose I'm not sure) ...sign me on.

And how many political prisoners? Oh that's right, you wouldn't know because that myth is not one the Cubans allow to be debunked!

Do you know what happens when you assume? You make an ass out of you and me. Show me the proof of these "political prisoners", will you? Also, by your logic:

Citizens aren't allowed into American military zones. Political prisoners are kept there. There's a reason why people aren't allowed into military zones: It's dangerous.


Eh. Or it could mean that no one is interested in you. ;)

That would be an amazing thing, being as how it'd be quite obvious he was a tourist(note the more than likely pasty white skin of most westerners). Tourist are prime targets for crime. Why? They carry a good deal of money, thus there is great incentive to rob them.


Feeling safe is not the same thing as being safe. What's the old story about the man falling out the window? "So far so good... so far so good... so far *splat*"

No, however when you not only haven't had a single encounter, but also haven't even witnessed an encounter(Which is more than likely going to happen in most Latin American tourist countries), or even heard of one then it may just mean something there...


Okay, so they're friendly. But it's not a myth that Cubans are inherently sourpusses.

Er... care to explain this?


And again the cops most likely just know how to behave around comparitively wealthy foreign tourists. The closer you are to the US the more you tiptoe around their assets. Peru is much farther away and has less incentive to make it's police behave.

Which is completely unlike other countries in the region which do "random checks" and "questioning" of tourists. So, basically, from what he said, compared to other tourist countries, the po-po are very nice and compliant, versus being rude and opportunistic.


Big deal. Statistically speaking you're just generalizing based off a few. I mean shit, I've never encountered violent criminals in my life in the US, does that seriously mean they don't exist?

And yet you claim to know EVERYTHING about Cuba without being there, and might I ask exactly how many Cubans have you met? Or are you just going on the glamourized and skewed views that the media has portrayed it as being a "Plinko Commie Hellhole that Everybody wants to leave!"?

Also, what sheltered community do you live in if you have never met a violent criminal? I live in a fairly quite part of the US, and I personally know quite
a few(I don't like them, not in the least bit, but I do know them).

*snip*
Take Santa Barbara with a grain of salt. He's a shit disturber, and loves it when people get all frothy:)

SB: Sorry to blow your cover you sexy, sexy beast you!

I Accept your view as your view, Miami Thugs, but what about the Cuban government Mafia, no one ever talks about that?
Hey! We finally get to talk about Cuba! Ok...Government Mafia...what exactly would we be talking about here?

And just so you know, the socialist wet dream involves having the USian government stop involving itself in the politics of other countries.
Stop that. I just had an orgasm.

Feeling safe is not the same thing as being safe. What's the old story about the man falling out the window? "So far so good... so far so good... so far *splat*"?/QUOTE]


As someone who has also travelled throughout Latin America, I would have to say that my experiences are similar to Sinuhue's


[QUOTE=Santa Barbara]And again the cops most likely just know how to behave around comparitively wealthy foreign tourists. The closer you are to the US the more you tiptoe around their assets. Peru is much farther away and has less incentive to make it's police behave.


WTF?
Then Tijuana is safer than Singapore? This statement seems to be utterly lacking in any kind of logic.

When I went to Cuba, I stayed with Cubans and generally lived like a Cuban. There was no reason for the cops to think I wasn't a Cuban. I still feel that the Havana police are one of the friendliest and least corrupt police force in the Americas.

Which means what? So you get paid more...but you also pay out more. You can't say Cubans have a significiantly lower quality of life.
Well, if it's a socialist wet dream to prefer making sure that everyone in your nation can have enough to eat, get an education, and have access to health care, housing and so on instead of just accumulating wealth (for what purpose I'm not sure) ...sign me on.

I don't have too. You did for me. ;)
then it gets expensive (so you'll only find air conditioners in businesses and casas that have licenses to rent). Everyone gets a libreta, which is a ration book, for a certain amount of food a month. Of course, if you want more than just the extreme basics, you need to supplement this ration. Now, there are two currencies in Cuba right now...the convertible peso, which is stronger than the US dollar, and the moneda nacional...the national money, also called a peso. The MN (moneda nacional) is worth about 1/24 of a dollar. Tomatoes in this season are worth 3 MN pesos a kilo. That's a few pennies. The expensive foods are the imported 'luxury goods'. Cookies, crackers, anything in a can...they cost what they do in Canada or the US, which is REALLY expensive for Cubans. Fresh fruit, veggies, seafood...it's all very affordable for Cubans. However, material goods such as clothes, electronics, and so on are very expensive. A pair of jeans may cost about $12 US, which is cheap for us...but when a fisherman makes about $14 a month, it's an incredible expense. So they spend their money on the most important things first...a new tire for the bicycle. Construction materials for a room. Wants come AFTER needs, which is kind of how they should be

Kinda how it should be? So peoplework hard but can't afford clothes or electronics, nobody can afford air conditioning, cookies, crackers, or ANY canned food, and that's how it SHOULD be?

Do me a favor, stay in Canada.

Cubans thought it was hilarious the kinds of things that people say about Cuba. Like fall down on the floor laughing with disbelief hilarious. They were also shocked when we told them the money that we made...then broke down how much we had to pay for everything. What upset them most was how much debt I was in from my University degree...they encouraged me to come study law in Cuba:) I may take them up on it...

I visited Cuba back in 1991, as a youth ambassador for my church. I stayed 2 1/2 weeks, half in Havana, half in the country. I spoke to a lot of Cuban young people, since that's what I was there for. The Soviet Union's collapse had caused serious harm to the Cuban economy.

Back then, Cuba was much more poor. It isn't rich today, but there are MANY more tourists coming. In 1991, the tourist industry was nil. Cuba was also much less commercial back then, which is no surprise. For example, my beach photos, and the beach photos of the recent ambassadors, bear almost no resemblance to one another.

Religion is stifled in Cuba. In 1990, there was a radio program celebrating Christmas. That was the first permitted public Christmas celebration in over 20 years. Things are slowly changing, but religion is still seen as a possible threat to the government, and is still officially taboo.

My Cuban friends were not allowed to be in possession of American money. We (Americans) had to exchange our dollars for goofy "tourist money" in order to shop, which isn't real Cuban money at all and which I still own several pieces of.

Cuban citizens are not welcome in tourist areas unless they are working there. My friends and I (some local, some not) were thrown bodily from the Habana Libre hotel downtown, because they thought we were all locals. When we started pulling out passports, I thought the man was going to faint.

When, during a church gathering, I found that there were no more available benches and decided to sit on the floor, a young Cuban girl ran outside weeping. I later found out that I had deeply upset her by sitting on the ground. Detergent and soaps are hard to come by, and everyone there works very hard to keep his/her clothes clean. Sitting on a floor is a luxury they could never afford, and that I would do it without thinking was a sign of how different our cultures were.

I, too, remember all the old cars. I also remember being told how most people only afford the gas to use them once every month or so.

I agree that not all Cubans want to jump ship. Some, however, do. It's human nature to look for something "better" when you don't like the situation you're in. One of the saddest things I saw was young people marrying VERY young (at 15 and 16), to avoid having to serve in the Cuban Army. The divorce rate was high. So was the abortion rate.

Many Cubans hate Fidel, at least they did at that time. One young soldier told me, in a nervous whisper, that if Fidel were standing in front of him, and he had a gun in his hand, he would not hesitate to pull the trigger.

Granted, all this was 15 years ago. I'm sure many things have changed that I'm not aware of. Still... what I remember most was a quiet desperation in the youth, and a series of shy "Is it true that in America...?" questions.

I don't have too. You did for me. ;) Um, actually I said the complete opposite, but whatever.


Kinda how it should be? So peoplework hard but can't afford clothes or electronics, nobody can afford air conditioning, cookies, crackers, or ANY canned food, and that's how it SHOULD be? Aw, poor cubans...can't afford canned goods...but the fresh food is dirt cheap. Can't afford canned ham...but the fresh pork and chicken is dirt cheap. Can't afford tinned salmon...but the lobster is dirt cheap....they work hard, and as a result, everyone gets an education, gets housing, gets healthcare, and gets fed.

Do me a favor, stay in Canada.It's looking less appealing actually.

A friend of mine goes to Havana every six months, just because the prostitutes are inexpensive AND extremely good looking.
Ahh! At last, a good reason to visit Cuba! :D

Fidel himself has to be reelected in his riding every time. That he IS reelected does not mean that people are forced to vote for him...

Yeah. Saddam used this trick too.


About the crime: until '89 and the end of Communism, there was a little of it here in Poland. But I wouldn't say this was a good time.

And if there's so good, why on Earth I sometimes see in my TV news about Cubans crossing the sea between Cuba and Florida in boats, on rafts, or even (I saw this once) home-made amphibias? Imperialist propaganda? It can't be possible that people flee from this paradise;)

Ahh! At last, a good reason to visit Cuba! :D

We should tell Congress about it...that blockade would be down tomorrow.

I visited Cuba back in 1991, as a youth ambassador for my church. I stayed 2 1/2 weeks, half in Havana, half in the country. I spoke to a lot of Cuban young people, since that's what I was there for. The Soviet Union's collapse had caused serious harm to the Cuban economy.

Back then, Cuba was much more poor. It isn't rich today, but there are MANY more tourists coming. In 1991, the tourist industry was nil. Cuba was also much less commercial back then, which is no surprise. For example, my beach photos, and the beach photos of the recent ambassadors, bear almost no resemblance to one another.

Religion is stifled in Cuba. In 1990, there was a radio program celebrating Christmas. That was the first permitted public Christmas celebration in over 20 years. Things are slowly changing, but religion is still seen as a possible threat to the government, and is still officially taboo. Was taboo. Most people I met were atheists...not hiding their religion, but as contemptuous of it as I am. The other group were practicioners of the Yoruban religions. In fact, the Yoruban religions are the most common. And they are certainly not stifled. Especially since the Pope visited.

My Cuban friends were not allowed to be in possession of American money. We (Americans) had to exchange our dollars for goofy "tourist money" in order to shop, which isn't real Cuban money at all and which I still own several pieces of. You can't use US dollars in Cuba anymore. And that 'goofy tourist money' is the convertible peso. It is still mostly in the hands of tourists. Why? Because Cubans pay different prices for things than tourists do. For example...to get into a museum, it may cost you 6 CUC (convertible pesos) which is a bit over $6 US. A Cuban will pay 6 MN (moneda nacional) which works out to a few pennies. Same goes for transportation...food in restaurants and so on. Cubans pay significantly lower prices for most things in the national money than do tourists. Which is fine...the prices for tourists are comparable to back home...cheaper even. Cubans don't NEED the convertible pesos unless they are making a large purchase.

Cuban citizens are not welcome in tourist areas unless they are working there. My friends and I (some local, some not) were thrown bodily from the Habana Libre hotel downtown, because they thought we were all locals. When we started pulling out passports, I thought the man was going to faint.Cubans can go to Varadero beach, to Holguin, and so on any time they like. What they can not do is stay at the hotels with a tourist. If they have enough money (unlikely) they can get a hotel room at a resort right next to you...but only if all people renting are Cuban. This is to help cut down on prostitution. Most of the tourist clubs in the cities are too expensive for the regular cuban...so skip them. The Cuban clubs are awesome.

When, during a church gathering, I found that there were no more available benches and decided to sit on the floor, a young Cuban girl ran outside weeping. I later found out that I had deeply upset her by sitting on the ground. Detergent and soaps are hard to come by, and everyone there works very hard to keep his/her clothes clean. Sitting on a floor is a luxury they could never afford, and that I would do it without thinking was a sign of how different our cultures were. Well no doubt. Just like throwing out a pair of jeans because you rip them would be unthinkable. It's the same throughout Latin America, where washers and driers are hard to come by, and even diapers are still washed by hand.

I, too, remember all the old cars. I also remember being told how most people only afford the gas to use them once every month or so. Most people bike it...or bus it. The buses or taxis (for Cubans) are cheap. I only recently started driving because I now live out in the country. When I lived in the city, I would never have dreamed of the expense of a car, when other transportation was cheaply, and readily available.

I agree that not all Cubans want to jump ship. Some, however, do. It's human nature to look for something "better" when you don't like the situation you're in. One of the saddest things I saw was young people marrying VERY young (at 15 and 16), to avoid having to serve in the Cuban Army. The divorce rate was high. So was the abortion rate. This is true. Cubans have had divorce for much longer than any other Latin American country...which I think is a good thing. Divorce was only recently made legal in Chile...my sister in law had to pay people off to lie and say she never lived with her husband. But young people tend to want to see other things...many do get to travel to other countries as social workers...too bad they can't get visas to visit the US and get it out of their system.

Many Cubans hate Fidel, at least they did at that time. One young soldier told me, in a nervous whisper, that if Fidel were standing in front of him, and he had a gun in his hand, he would not hesitate to pull the trigger. Many USians hate Bush and would say the same thing.

Granted, all this was 15 years ago. I'm sure many things have changed that I'm not aware of. Still... what I remember most was a quiet desperation in the youth, and a series of shy "Is it true that in America...?" questions. Which you will get anywhere in Latin America. But what is even sadder is that Cuba is the only nation in Latin America that can ensure it's people don't starve, that they have a place to live, have access to healthcare and education. Cuban desperation is nothing compared to the desperation of other Latinos. Nothing.

Yeah. Saddam used this trick too.


About the crime: until '89 and the end of Communism, there was a little of it here in Poland. But I wouldn't say this was a good time.

And if there's so good, why on Earth I sometimes see in my TV news about Cubans crossing the sea between Cuba and Florida in boats, on rafts, or even (I saw this once) home-made amphibias? Imperialist propaganda? It can't be possible that people flee from this paradise;)
Less leave than flee Haiti, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua...and Mexico. Much less. More people leave Canada to move the US than people 'fleeing' Cuba. And what they are generally 'fleeing' is the idea of being 'held back' economically...they are not fleeing torture, or extrajudicial killings.

Yeah. Saddam used this trick too.
So does my Member of Parliament, who has been in office for 30 years running.

Um, actually I said the complete opposite, but whatever.


Aw, poor cubans...can't afford canned goods...but the fresh food is dirt cheap. Can't afford canned ham...but the fresh pork and chicken is dirt cheap. Can't afford tinned salmon...but the lobster is dirt cheap....they work hard, and as a result, everyone gets an education, gets housing, gets healthcare, and gets fed.
It's looking less appealing actually.
Look, I was born in a broke family, never any Christmas presents, never enough food in the house, blah blah blah, you've heard the same story, I'm sure. I worked hard, went to school (half free grants, half Federal loans) and now I'm fed, I've got healthcare, a house, I can afford the things I need AND want, and I've got a thousand times more liberties than Cubans.

Bottom line, I like the Cuban people, and you can't tell me there isn't a better way for them to live, and a better way for the government to treat them?

Hi Sin, good to see you're back. I don't have the luxury of time right now to properly respond to your thread (end of lunch for me at the office), but when I saw your name popping up in the post-preview, I thought I'd make a point of welcoming you back.

And yes, you do know who I am.

Cuba would be a lot better off if we (of course, referring to the US) lifted the blockade...the sheer amount of economic benefit that both the US and Cuba would stand to gain if we opened up trade with them is incredible. Virtually every other nation in the world can trade with Cuba...but us, 70 or so miles away, can't.

I guess we don't realize that blockades have absolutely no benefit whatsoever to either side...

Look, I was born in a broke family, never any Christmas presents, never enough food in the house, blah blah blah, you've heard the same story, I'm sure. I worked hard, went to school (half free grants, half Federal loans) and now I'm fed, I've got healthcare, a house, I can afford the things I need AND want, and I've got a thousand times more liberties than Cubans. Like what? The liberty to accumulate wealth? They have many more liberties than you do...in the end, how can you compare who has more 'liberties' when we are talking about different kinds of freedoms? Cubans have social liberties and many more guarantees. Guaranteed to all, not just those who make more money. The 'free ride' hasn't made them lazy...Cubans work damn hard. But ALL Cubans matter...no one is left behind. Again...you may think that is less important than individual wealth...but others disagree. And another way is clearly possible.

Bottom line, I like the Cuban people, and you can't tell me there isn't a better way for them to live, and a better way for the government to treat them? Can you? Can you say that with the same system of capitalism that exists in your country, the system that ensures no Cuban is left to starve, no Cuban is left homeless, illiterate, untreated medically would still exist? Of course it wouldn't. You don't see gated communities and huge mansions in Cuba. Just like you don't see desperate slums. But you'll see that in your country, and in mine. You'll see children living in extreme poverty in our countries...starving in the midst of wealth. And you think this is a better way for Cubans to live?

Better yet, don't ask me. Ask them. Go visit. Don't believe it until you hear it from their lips, and see how they live.

And yes, you do know who I am.
Hmmmm....who do I know that can bob his own pipe....:)

Cuba would be a lot better off if we (of course, referring to the US) lifted the blockade...the sheer amount of economic benefit that both the US and Cuba would stand to gain if we opened up trade with them is incredible. Virtually every other nation in the world can trade with Cuba...but us, 70 or so miles away, can't.

First, you have to consider that the days of the sugar trade are gone.

Worldwide sugar prices are so low that Cuba, even without the blockade, would have abandoned its major economic cash crop in any case (it has closed down all but a handful of sugar mills, and Castro announced a few years ago that Cuba will have to find something other than sugar to produce). Sugar formed the previous economic relationship (a rather one-way relationship) between the US and Cuba.

At this point, it would be quite apparent that Cuba has little or no industrial infrastructure, and other than tourism, would have little to offer (or be robbed of) in a US-Cuba relation.

I don't think that US relations are essential to Cuba in any way, shape or form. Nice to have, but non-essential. And the US would not benefit in any economic way by having economic relations with Cuba.

Cool, though I'm not sure I could enjoy a vacation to Cuba. No freedom = boredom for me. I don't do well under the constant threat of death.

Welcome back Sinuhue, I knew you would have a great time in Cuba.

So it is a lie that,
1. The average cubans like my relatives cannot stay in thier own nations hotels with hard currency or thier own Cuban Pesos, while rich tourists and thier visiting Cuban American relatives are allowed to.

2. That the averge Cuban does not have cable, satelite dishes because the Cuban goverment will not allow it.

3. yes, they have free government provided education and healthcare, but entire sections of some hospitals are beign reserved for rich foreigners and now for poor foreigners financed by Hugo Chavez with Venezuelan oil money, while Cubans have to share those hospital resources with those foreigners.

4. My female cousin in cuba works with computers in a government office company, she has a job better than mine and she drives a bycycle to work, and she has to ask me to send her hard currency money so she can buy most of her basic need products in hard currency stores in a currency she does not earn, she also has to ask me to send her eyeglasses and medicine, etc, etc.

5. She was allowed to send me e-mails from work, we never said anything good or bad about the Cuban government and all of a sudden, I get a message on my computer from Cuba saying blocked for political reasons, I guess they must have let her send me e-mails to see if I would send her hard currency money, I am not the first nor the last native Cuban that has happened too.

More posts later, welcome back Sinuhue

I don't think that US relations are essential to Cuba in any way, shape or form. Nice to have, but non-essential. And the US would not benefit in any economic way by having economic relations with Cuba.Cuba has all but abandoned sugar as a source of revenue. Sugar production is now almost entirely for domestic consumption. Cuba exports much more fruit in the form of juice than it does sugar. Right now, tourism is probably the biggest industry in Cuba. What would help Cuba is not free access to US goods (which they basically have) but rather an end to the blockade which prevents medicines from reaching the island.

Cool, though I'm not sure I could enjoy a vacation to Cuba. No freedom = boredom for me. I don't do well under the constant threat of death.:rolleyes: Yes, Cubans are constantly threatened with torture and execution.

This is the kind of complete ignorance I'm talking about. Why even bother saying it?

Yes, Cubans are constantly threatened with torture and execution.

This is the kind of complete ignorance I'm talking about. Why even bother saying it?

What, isn't Cuba a totalitarian state like China or Vietnam?

Many USians hate Bush and would say the same thing.

I don't know about that. I hate Bush - I think he's the worst president we've had in my lifetime, and I would love to see him out of office. But I don't wish him dead, and I wouldn't shoot him.

Edit: And welcome back. =)

And to all fellow nations, as I keep posting, Cuba trades with the European Union nations, Canada, Australia, New Zeeland, Japan, Mexico, Venezuela, China and others.

While Cuba does not sell products to the USA, it does buy hundreds of millions of $ Dollars worth of goods from the USA every year on a pay as you buy basis.

The only thing left of the so-called USA embargo is a lack of American loans and credits and American tourists,while Cuba recieves loans and credits from other nations, of which it owes billions of $ Dollars worth to those nations.

Over two million tourists visit Cuba each year.

Sin! Hi! Glad to see you enjoyed Cuba. I had suspected that what was said was less than the truth, mind, it's glad to see something going against it.

Erm. But I can't think of anything else to say. So I'll leave it there. Hi again!

Sinuhue, I appreciate your zeal, and I share your love of - and personal connection to - the Cuban people. But real happiness is about having the freedom to pursue your own dreams, and freedom is about having options. Like being able to stay at a fancy hotel, or drive a car, or protest something, or get on a plane and leave if you want.

Cuban society, like every society, has many wonderful characteristics. But at what price? What price are people willing to pay for any of those benefits?

Personally, if the price is liberty, I say it's too damn high.

Cuba has all but abandoned sugar as a source of revenue. Sugar production is now almost entirely for domestic consumption. Cuba exports much more fruit in the form of juice than it does sugar. Right now, tourism is probably the biggest industry in Cuba. What would help Cuba is not free access to US goods (which they basically have) but rather an end to the blockade which prevents medicines from reaching the island.

I already knew about the sugar being abandoned in Cuba. I read Castro's speeches from time to time.

It's not a blockade - there are no naval ships preventing people and goods from going there. It's an embargo. And most pharmaceuticals made in the US are made in other countries - countries that do not participate in the embargo against Cuba.

What Cuba seems to be missing is capital - money. No money, no drugs.

With a dearth of foreign investment, there's no money for improvements at a rate that a capitalist country or even a market socialist country could maintain.

Hmmmm....who do I know that can bob his own pipe....:)


LOL

Welcome back Sinner!

I missed you.

Didn't you miss all the anger towards socialists?

Welcome back Sinuhue, I knew you would have a great time in Cuba.

So it is a lie that,
1. The average cubans like my relatives cannot stay in thier own nations hotels with hard currency or thier own Cuban Pesos, while rich tourists and thier visiting Cuban American relatives are allowed to. No, it is a lie that Cubans are somehow forbidden access to all hotels in Cuba...or even ANY hotels in Cuba. What is true is that Cubans can not stay at hotels with tourists...which helps control prostitution. Now, if you are serious, and want to marry a Cuban, you can stay with a Cuban at a hotel. If you just picked up a sweet young thing and want some privacy, tough. The average Cuban can not afford to stay at a resort hotel...just like the average Canadian can afford to stay at a 5 star hotel in their own city...not for long, and not without going broke. Their visiting relatives generally have the money to stay...but why the hell would they when they could stay with relatives?

2. That the averge Cuban does not have cable, satelite dishes because the Cuban goverment will not allow it. The average Latin American does not have these things...or a tv to watch it on. Yes, the media is still controlled...you can not have private internet access yet. But there are now cell phones, with text messaging...a recent development...and the computers, and satellites will come...once it has been figured out how these things will not be used to create little side businesses...(come watch satellite at my home for 10 pesos!)...and so on. However, making them available does not mean everyone will have them, or be able to afford them. Personal CD players are available widely...but the average Cuban doesn't have one. Oh no.

3. yes, they have free government provided education and healthcare, but entire sections of some hospitals are beign reserved for rich foreigners and now for poor foreigners financed by Hugo Chavez with Venezuelan oil money, while Cubans have to share those hospital resources with those foreigners. Which speaks to the generosity of the Cuban people. There is definitely a double economy for tourists...who in my mind SHOULD pay more. They aren't spending their lives in Cuba, working to support the system...LET THEM PAY. But don't pretend that the 'sharing' means that Cubans are being turned away. They aren't. You can get into the hospital for cataract surgery in a day. A DAY. You can get in to see a cancer specialist in a day. In Canada, you wait weeks...sometimes months. You need to bring a blanket with you to sleep in the hospital...but your treatment is free, you are fed, and they will even put your family up if you are from out of town.

4. My female cousin in cuba works with computers in a government office company, she has a job better than mine and she drives a bycycle to work, and she has to ask me to send her hard currency money so she can buy most of her basic need products in hard currency stores in a currency she does not earn, she also has to ask me to send her eyeglasses and medicine, etc, etc. And the doctor I turned a bag of medicine over to lives in a humble home, looks like the average cuban, and is the head immunologist at the provincial hospital. So? You'll see teachers, lawyers, politicians all walking down the street in regular clothes, going to their regular houses. Is it so horrible and unjust that they do not reside in mansions and wear designer clothes? The doctor I spoke of laughed when we told her that doctors in Canada live in huge houses. She said she chose to be a doctor because she wanted to do the work...not so she could stay at home in a mansion.

5. She was allowed to send me e-mails from work, we never said anything good or bad about the Cuban government and all of a sudden, I get a message on my computer from Cuba saying blocked for political reasons, I guess they must have let her send me e-mails to see if I would send her hard currency money, I am not the first nor the last native Cuban that has happened too. Email is restricted still, and usually only accessible from work. Then again, Cuba is waging an ideological defense against an extremely hostile northern neighbour who is intent on flooding the island with propaganda. Were Al Jazeera to attempt to beam their program into every home, without permission from the US government, you'd find a harsh and swift reaction. The fact is, Cubans enjoy more freedom than the average Latin American...but people in the US insist on comparing Cubans to USians. Which is ridiculous.
More posts later, welcome back Sinuhue Thanks:)

What, isn't Cuba a totalitarian state like China or Vietnam?
Yes. Just like China and Vietnam.

I don't know about that. I hate Bush - I think he's the worst president we've had in my lifetime, and I would love to see him out of office. But I don't wish him dead, and I wouldn't shoot him.

Edit: And welcome back. =)
Well, saying you'd like to shoot someone doesn't mean you'd actually do it. And I've heard plenty of North Americans make death threats against Bush. Why believe them less than a Cuban?

No, it is a lie that Cubans are somehow forbidden access to all hotels in Cuba...or even ANY hotels in Cuba. What is true is that Cubans can not stay at hotels with tourists...which helps control prostitution. Now, if you are serious, and want to marry a Cuban, you can stay with a Cuban at a hotel. If you just picked up a sweet young thing and want some privacy, tough.

My friend who goes there for the prostitutes says that prostitution is not under any control at all (despite being illegal). The hotel manager will gladly accept cash in exchange for letting you take the young woman up to your room. And not very much cash at that.

He says it's a far, far cheaper deal with far better looking women than any foreign country he's visited.

Better than Vietnam, for example. Or Thailand.

I hate Bush - I think he's the worst president we've had in my lifetime, and I would love to see him out of office. But I don't wish him dead



but many do and have said so

It might also be nice to remember that Cuba hasn't changed very much, as far as lifestyle is concernced, since the Batista years. Virtually all of the infrastructure, be it educational, medical or transportation was built prior to Castro. As is clearly evidenced by the vast quantity of what we in America refer to as "classic" cars. A common claim of the success of the Castro government is the rise in literacy you make mention of. You must remember that it's part of a natural evolution of a developing society. The UN rates Cuban literacy at 96%. As compared to Chile at 95%, Argentina at 96% and Costa Rica at 95%. It's part of a general trend in Latin America to increasing literacy rates.

On another scale, food consumption, Cubans are in a notoriously poorer situation than most of their Latin America counterparts, with Mexicans leading the pack with over 3000 calories a day, whilst Cubans come in at around 2,300 calories a day. A number that's even lower than Honduras.

Passenger car presence has decreased since the fifties, Cuba is the only country in Latin America to have this happen.

As to the proliferation of newsmedia information in Cuba, that also is not a change from the days of Batista. The government has decreased the number of papers available from 58 privately owned papers to 17 government run papers. There has also been a fall in the number of television stations available to Cuba since Castros revolution, which once had the most robust television network system in all of Latin America, with two times as many stations as Mexico, Argentina and Brazil each. It also had 160 radio stations in the Batista days, which was more radio stations than one could find in the UK, Austria and France.

Beyond that, it's easy to control people and make them think they're happy. Always has been, always will be. Just creat a personality cult around the leader and create a cause. Guaranteed to work.

Not to cast doubt on what you saw Sinuhue, but to put it in context and comparison to what it once was. Castro is just another dictator, not much different from Batista. As the Who once sang "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

*Statistical data provided by the United Nations

I must say I've found Sinuhue's thoughts and observations very enlightening. :) Refreshing too!

Sinuhue, I appreciate your zeal, and I share your love of - and personal connection to - the Cuban people. But real happiness is about having the freedom to pursue your own dreams, and freedom is about having options. Like being able to stay at a fancy hotel, or drive a car, or protest something, or get on a plane and leave if you want. That's your opinion. For the majority of people on this planet, freedom means the freedom to starve, the freedom to live without potable water, the freedom to live in extreme poverty while others suck the resources of this earth dry to satisfy their greed. To you, freedom is the freedom to consume. Don't talk about happiness as though one variable can guarantee it, and don't presume to speak about happiness as though an economic system can guarantee it or not.

Cuban society, like every society, has many wonderful characteristics. But at what price? What price are people willing to pay for any of those benefits?

Personally, if the price is liberty, I say it's too damn high.What liberties are being taken away? What rights are being guaranteed in their place? Most people in this world can not afford to travel, to buy new clothes, to have big tvs...are they all lacking in freedom too? Why is it only the Cubans, who have satisfied the basic needs of ALL their people...a feat NONE of the rich countries on this earth have managed to do...why is it only this small nation that so enrages people and makes them scream about freedom? What price are YOU willing to pay for the right, the liberty to prosper while your fellow man starves? While his children are sold into sexual slavery? While his land is poisoned, his water polluted, his people denied medical care and education? Because all of these things are happening in your country, right now. Where these things are not happening, is Cuba. What price YOUR freedom?

LOL

Welcome back Sinner!

I missed you.

Didn't you miss all the anger towards socialists?
Yeah, it's was refreshing to talk to people who had a clue for a while:) I missed you too!

Yeah, it's was refreshing to talk to people who had a clue for a while:) I missed you too!
Plenty of women in prostitution in Havana. Sexual slavery?

Well, I'm back after two short/long weeks, and I have to say that my head is still reeling. We avoided Varadero, stayed completely out of the tourist areas, and I'm a bit ashamed to say that I had internalised more anti-Cuban propaganda than I thought. It was a bit of a shock for me to have these biases uncovered...and proven utterly false.

I have traveled all over South and Central America, and I have to say that I love Cuba the best. Love love love, as in will be visiting once a year if at all possible. I can not believe the crap people believe about this country, either through sheer ignorance (and I don't mean that in a bad way...when you don't know, you just don't know) or willful deception (this would be the one I mean in a bad way). I can't give you the life story of every Cuban, or the complete socio-political analysis of the country, but there are a few myths I can debunk for those of you interested.

So for those of you who are thinking of traveling to Cuba, or are just interested in what it's like, ask away...if I can answer you, I will:)

Will you go to North Korea and do the same thing now? How about Iran? China? Canada? Sudan?

My friend who goes there for the prostitutes says that prostitution is not under any control at all (despite being illegal). The hotel manager will gladly accept cash in exchange for letting you take the young woman up to your room. And not very much cash at that.The control comes into play in terms of the fines and penalties...just like any law can not PREVENT crime from happening. Plus, the woman herself can face serious problems if she is caught. People who go for prostitution will find it. That's a given. But it isn't at the same level that you will find pretty much everywhere else. It isn't encouraged, it's restricted, and it's much more difficult to get away with in Cuba.

Will you go to North Korea and do the same thing now? How about Iran? China? Canada? Sudan?

LMAO!

Not to cast doubt on what you saw Sinuhue, but to put it in context and comparison to what it once was. Castro is just another dictator, not much different from Batista. As the Who once sang "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."


Not much different from Batista. Right.

Well, as I said, I'm not going to argue with those of you who insist on clinging onto what you've been told. Go see for yourself.

Plenty of women in prostitution in Havana. Sexual slavery?
Havana's a big city. Big cities have big problems. But even the big problems in Havana pale in comparison with their Latin American counterparts. Many jineteras are really in it for the money...or the thrills...with willing husbands waiting back at home. And when sex is not a shameful thing, and this kind of dallying is not looked at with contempt, why the hell not? As long as you're willing to risk the consequences...prostitution in Cuba does not have the added threat of drug addiction and poverty, the way it does in most nations.

The control comes into play in terms of the fines and penalties...just like any law can not PREVENT crime from happening. Plus, the woman herself can face serious problems if she is caught. People who go for prostitution will find it. That's a given. But it isn't at the same level that you will find pretty much everywhere else. It isn't encouraged, it's restricted, and it's much more difficult to get away with in Cuba.

Considering that my friend has been many times solely for that reason, and finds it extremely cheap and extremely easy, I'm surprised that you think it's so restricted.

Will you go to North Korea and do the same thing now? How about Iran? China? Canada? Sudan?
ROFL.

Be back after lunch...though I'm not going to bother with such an inane comment.

Kinda how it should be? So peoplework hard but can't afford clothes or electronics, nobody can afford air conditioning, cookies, crackers, or ANY canned food, and that's how it SHOULD be?
I think that has more to do with the difference in markets, since those products aren't manufactured in Cuba, than with any other reason.

If the country produced it or if there was some way to trade with a partner like the USSR in the old days, those products could be made affordable.

Mexico is a capitalist economy, but people still can't afford air conditioning and big screen TVs. Many can't afford canned food either.

Considering that my friend has been many times solely for that reason, and finds it extremely cheap and extremely easy, I'm surprised that you think it's so restricted.
I'm surprised that you don't seem to get the difference between restriction, and availability. It is difficult to get a room with a prostitute...much more so than in other nations. Impossible? No. Especially in the larger cities, people have found a way...often bringing johns back to their own home to escape the RESTRICTION that says a cuban can not shack up with a tourist. And there are routine crackdowns on prostitution...prostitutes risk some hefty fines, and possibly jail time. Yes. It is restricted. Can whore-hounds find sex in Cuba? Is there any country they can't? But it certainly isn't rife, encouraged, and as problematic as it is in other nations.

Not much different from Batista. Right.

Well, as I said, I'm not going to argue with those of you who insist on clinging onto what you've been told. Go see for yourself.
That's what my lovely statistics tell me. Both are despots, both arrested dissenters, both made use of secret police, both had a habit of resticting free speech. Either way they're both two-bit dictators and they're both crooks. I dislike both of them. One's a socialist demagouge, the other is a mafia plaything. But I backed up my post with hard data. Would you happen to have any refutations for my data?

My only source happens to be diligently collected statistical data from the United Nations. I'd be delighted to go to Cuba to inspect the place myself, but at the moment I'm a college student, whose paycheck isn't really all that large. I think I'll stick to Columbus.

We should tell Congress about it...that blockade would be down tomorrow.
Form a lobby to send the Congress on a fact-finding mission.

I'm surprised that you don't seem to get the difference between restriction, and availability. It is difficult to get a room with a prostitute...much more so than in other nations. Impossible? No. Especially in the larger cities, people have found a way...often bringing johns back to their own home to escape the RESTRICTION that says a cuban can not shack up with a tourist. And there are routine crackdowns on prostitution...prostitutes risk some hefty fines, and possibly jail time. Yes. It is restricted. Can whore-hounds find sex in Cuba? Is there any country they can't? But it certainly isn't rife, encouraged, and as problematic as it is in other nations.


I think it's just not out on the street as much.

BTW, in the US, it's hard to find on the street, but that's because most prostitutes have dispensed with streetwalking and pimps, and have their own web pages.

Based on his multiple experiences, including the tours arranged for just such a purpose, I have the distinct impression that it's cheaper and more available in Havana than where I live.

To you, freedom is the freedom to consume. Don't talk about happiness as though one variable can guarantee it, and don't presume to speak about happiness as though an economic system can guarantee it or not.

There are many types of freedom, and freedom to consume is one of those. Money does, perhaps unfortunately, equal more choices. Perhaps it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

As an aside: I reserve the right to "presume to speak" about anything I please. That is the purpose of this forum. Please don't flame.

What liberties are being taken away? What rights are being guaranteed in their place? Most people in this world can not afford to travel, to buy new clothes, to have big tvs...are they all lacking in freedom too? Why is it only the Cubans, who have satisfied the basic needs of ALL their people...a feat NONE of the rich countries on this earth have managed to do...why is it only this small nation that so enrages people and makes them scream about freedom?

I am not enraged. I simply do not agree with the manner in which their government has chosen to meet its people's needs. Your statement, "What liberties are being taken away? What rights are being guaranteed in their place?" indicates acknowledgement that an exchange is taking place. It's not an exchange I'm willing to make. That's my opinion. You're certainly entitled to yours.

What price are YOU willing to pay for the right, the liberty to prosper while your fellow man starves? While his children are sold into sexual slavery? While his land is poisoned, his water polluted, his people denied medical care and education? Because all of these things are happening in your country, right now. Where these things are not happening, is Cuba. What price YOUR freedom?

I am a veteran. I have already demonstrated that I am willing to pay the ultimate price for my freedom, and the freedom of my people. I put my money where my mouth is. Heated rhetoric is pointless without the action to back it up.

That's what my lovely statistics tell me. Both are despots, both arrested dissenters, both made use of secret police, both had a habit of resticting free speech. Either way they're both two-bit dictators and they're both crooks. I dislike both of them. One's a socialist demagouge, the other is a mafia plaything. But I backed up my post with hard data. Would you happen to have any refutations for my data?

By such logic, Bush, Blair and Chretien are also two bit dictators.

I'm getting the vibe that either you're a Communist paradise like Cuba, or you're a capitalist hellhole.

I guess that to Sinuhue, there aren't any nations in between that do a great job (or a better job than Cuba) without screwing people out of something fundamental.

By such logic, Bush, Blair and Chretien are also two bit dictators.
Explain please.

Perhaps I didn't clarify myself. It's commonly accepted knowledge that Castro, just as Batista before him, is a dictator. Bush, Blair and Chretien on the other hand are freely elected. That is unless you're calling the sham elections that Cuba holds every so often real elections.

At this point, it would be quite apparent that Cuba has little or no industrial infrastructure, and other than tourism, would have little to offer (or be robbed of) in a US-Cuba relation.

Yup. That was Fidel's biggest mistake during the Soviet era. By relying on the sugar trade there was never an incentive to develop any kind of industry that would help sustain the country. I'm sure there's some mineral wealth in the island, but it has never been explored. Tourism has worked so far, but can't be expected to carry them much further.

I nearly cried reading this... Cuba IS one of the most beautiful and friendly countries... I would KILL to live there...!

Fidel Castro Ruz = my father and teacher.

MYTHS:
1) Tourists are not allowed out of the tourist areas.
False. You can travel where you damn well please.

I told you that before you went there, remember? ;) Actually, I'd never even heard that myth, so, when I went to Cuba, I wasn't even surprised at being able to wander around freely.

Welcome back. I'm glad you enjoyed it. And you're doing a great job at informing people here about the reality of Cuba, rather than the anti-Cuban propaganda. Keep it up. :)

My friend who goes there for the prostitutes says that prostitution is not under any control at all (despite being illegal). The hotel manager will gladly accept cash in exchange for letting you take the young woman up to your room. And not very much cash at that.

I don't know why countries want to erradicate prostitution. Sex is one of those things, like alcohol, that the more you forbid the more people will find a way around them and get to it with more gusto.

They should instead find ways to regulate it, protect prostitutes, and prevent disease. Anything else is just being plain foolish.

I nearly cried reading this... Cuba IS one of the most beautiful and friendly countries... I would KILL to live there...!

Fidel Castro Ruz = my father and teacher.

I see.....

Someone has been indoctrinated.

I see.....

Someone has been indoctrinated.

If YOU want to live in a place controlled by wealth and greed, fine by me.

I'll just stick to the pure might of socialist edens... You can't find those in any Mcdonalds or Mcpanda or whatever...

First, you have to consider that the days of the sugar trade are gone.

Sugar for food consumption, yes. But given the fact that sugar-produced ethanol is one of the most energy efficent sources of alternative fuel in the world (and has been implemented with incredible success in Brazil, it is likely that demand will increase considerably over the next few decades.

Also, many countries are phasing out subsidies for sugar production, so the market is slowly becoming more and more "normal". If we can eliminate the subsidies and protections given to beet-sugar producers in Europe, it would provide considerable upward mobility on world prices.

Worldwide sugar prices are so low that Cuba, even without the blockade, would have abandoned its major economic cash crop in any case (it has closed down all but a handful of sugar mills, and Castro announced a few years ago that Cuba will have to find something other than sugar to produce). Sugar formed the previous economic relationship (a rather one-way relationship) between the US and Cuba.

Cuba may also possess significan reserves of natural gas and oil; not to mention its infrastructure and manufactured goods demands would be very beneficial to the US producers. This also doesn't include the markets opened up in tourism, shipping, or any other logistics-related field.

They have significant need for large-scale upgrades to their infrastructure, and an open market with the US would be of considerable benefit.

At this point, it would be quite apparent that Cuba has little or no industrial infrastructure, and other than tourism, would have little to offer (or be robbed of) in a US-Cuba relation.I don't think that US relations are essential to Cuba in any way, shape or form. Nice to have, but non-essential. And the US would not benefit in any economic way by having economic relations with Cuba.

I don't know; generally, opening nations to trade produces at least some benefit...the blockade doesn't bring us anything and costs money as well. Perhaps Cuba could eventually be grouped in to a new Free Trade Agreement of the Americas, but that's highly speculative.

I don't know why countries want to erradicate prostitution. Sex is one of those things, like alcohol, that the more you forbid the more people will find a way around them and get to it with more gusto.

They should instead find ways to regulate it, protect prostitutes, and prevent disease. Anything else is just being plain foolish.

I'm more amused by the idea that somehow Cuba has a better handle on it than any other nation on Earth.

Just because a government says "do something" or "don't do something" doesn't mean that the government is actually going to get its way. In fact, the opposite is usually true.

I'll just stick to the pure might of socialist edens... You can't find those in any Mcdonalds or Mcpanda or whatever...

No, because in most socialist nations people don't have enough to eat, have to contend with daily power shortages, lack access to clean water, and have to suffer under a repressive regime that bars any and all access to free information under threat of severe punishment from the government.

Even if Cuba is an exception to these things, the rest of the former Communist world is a testament to the utter failiure of socialist theory in practice.

Hey! We finally get to talk about Cuba! Ok...Government Mafia...what exactly would we be talking about here?

Cuba is a one political party state, not offering diffrent political partys with diffrent economic, political or social point of views like you have in your native nation.

In Cuba there are government organized mobs against anyone with diffrent economic, political and social points of views than those of the government, unlike in your native nation.

The music of the Late Celia Cruz, Willy Chirino, and Gloria estafan are not allowed in Cuba, yet Cubans copy, sell, trade and listen to thier music through the extensive illegal black market.

Once Gloria Estefan was supposed to sing at an Olympics game in the USA, and Cuban government representatives protested and caused a riot, yet pro Cuban goverment artists come to the USA including Miami and perform before Cuban American audiences, some protest thier shows, others buy thier tickets and attend their shows in a democratic nation.

The music of Willy Chirino, the Late Celia Cruz and Gloria Estefan should not be banned by the Cuban government for any reasons.

If the Cuban government wants all thier artist and other profesionals to be allowed to perform in the USA, it should allow all Americans including Cuban Americans to perform in Cuba, but I bet President Fidel Castro of Cuba for life would accept that fair deal.

Just the fact that e-mails of diffrent views are not allowed,
the average cuban is not allowed to stay in hotels and restaurants reserved for foreigners and thier visiting overseas relatives and that a site like nationstates where we can argue, debate, discuss and share our diffrent points of views make the Cuban government a dictatorship Mafia.

A relative of mine visited Cuba about 2 years ago, he stayed in the home of his family, he gave them hard currency money which they used to welcome him with a big family dinner otherwise they would not have been able too, he bought them a toilet seat at a hard currency store because theres was in such bad condition, he wanted to to stay a night or two at a nice tourist hotel on the beach,but didnt because he could not enjoy it with his average Cuban family, because they are not allowed to stay there while he can. Everyone welcome to paradise, Cuban style.

The late Celia Cruz whoose dream was to sing in a free Cuba one day, had to go to the Guantanamo naval base, her music was broadcast through loud speakers to the Cubans who had gathered as close to the naval base as possible to hear her sing the Guantanamera, one day she will through videos.

Because her music is not allowed in Cuba by the tolerant Cuban government of Dictator Fidel Castro for life.

If YOU want to live in a place controlled by wealth and greed, fine by me.

I'll just stick to the pure might of socialist edens... You can't find those in any Mcdonalds or Mcpanda or whatever...


Eden?

*blinks*

But what is even sadder is that Cuba is the only nation in Latin America that can ensure it's people don't starve, that they have a place to live, have access to healthcare and education. Cuban desperation is nothing compared to the desperation of other Latinos. Nothing.

Not anymore :) With Chavez in Venezuela, and more recently Morales in Bolivia, the people of those countries will very likely have access to food, housing, health care and education soon. In Venezuela, it's already well under the way, thanks to the cooperation between Venezuela and Cuba. More 600 free health care providing centers are just about to open in Venezuela, millions of people are receiving free litteracy lessons, ... :)

:rolleyes: Yes, Cubans are constantly threatened with torture and execution.

This is the kind of complete ignorance I'm talking about. Why even bother saying it?


If letila asked herself "why even bother saying it" she wouldnt have any posts, sinuhue ;)

I'm getting the vibe that either you're a Communist paradise like Cuba, or you're a capitalist hellhole.

I guess that to Sinuhue, there aren't any nations in between that do a great job (or a better job than Cuba) without screwing people out of something fundamental.
Considering that Cuba is the topic, and Capitalists the audience, I would have to say ...wtf?

and I've got a thousand times more liberties than Cubans.

Well, I don't support Castro censorship of the press and such... but USA is far from a democratic heaven either. And not even going as far in history as the dark ages of Mc Carthy, the post-September 11 USA is not more democratic than Cuba.

Two political parties with similar views, bound to corporate money and no chance for another party to ever have any power, an information network nearly completly controlled by a few corporations, an electoral college system allowing the candidate with the least amount of votes to become president, massive electoral frauds, governement spying over citizen, ...

And don't forget that the worse place in the island of Cuba, where many political prisonners are held without any trial, and tortured, is not under control of Castro: it's Guantanamo Bay.

I think it's just not out on the street as much.

BTW, in the US, it's hard to find on the street, but that's because most prostitutes have dispensed with streetwalking and pimps, and have their own web pages.

Based on his multiple experiences, including the tours arranged for just such a purpose, I have the distinct impression that it's cheaper and more available in Havana than where I live.
Oh, I certainly wouldn't argue that prostitutes are cheaper in Cuba. We met one fellow who routinely came to Cuba with a bag of old jeans...and he got a nice young woman for each pair of them. I'm comparing the prostitution in Cuba to that in other Latin American countries...it seems an awful lot safer, and less dehumanising in Cuba.

Explain please.

Perhaps I didn't clarify myself. It's commonly accepted knowledge that Castro, just as Batista before him, is a dictator. Bush, Blair and Chretien on the other hand are freely elected. That is unless you're calling the sham elections that Cuba holds every so often real elections.

You weren't talking about elections in your previous post.

I will explain my post:

You said:

That's what my lovely statistics tell me. Both are despots, both arrested dissenters, both made use of secret police, both had a habit of resticting free speech. Either way they're both two-bit dictators and they're both crooks. I dislike both of them. One's a socialist demagouge, the other is a mafia plaything. But I backed up my post with hard data. Would you happen to have any refutations for my data?

Let’s look carefully:
a) both are despots. This statement is redundant if they have done all the rest.
b) both arrested dissenters. Here’s a newsflash. Protesters in many countries are arrested for voicing dissent, including the USA, UK and Canada.
c) Both made use of secret police. Again, most western democracies make use of secret police services, including the USA, UK, and Canada.
d) Both had a habit of restricting free speech. Yep, arresting protestors will do that too.

So, there you go.

I'm getting the vibe that either you're a Communist paradise like Cuba, or you're a capitalist hellhole.

I guess that to Sinuhue, there aren't any nations in between that do a great job (or a better job than Cuba) without screwing people out of something fundamental.
Sure Kimchi...if you really want to make shit up about what I think, feel free. The topic is about Cuba...you noticed that, right? Have I once used the word paradise? No. My focus in this thread has been on the fact that what many people...most of whom have never been to Cuba...would have you believe about that country is nothing but pure, unadulterated bullshit.

And I love this quote of yours, "Without screwing people out of something fundamental". In Cuba, LIFE is considered to be fundamental, and protected. You don't get much more fundamental than life. Cuba has done much more to guarantee that fundamental right, in terms of housing, healthcare, and food, than your country, or mine.

I told you that before you went there, remember? ;) Actually, I'd never even heard that myth, so, when I went to Cuba, I wasn't even surprised at being able to wander around freely. People keep asking me if I was allowed out of the tourist zones...they seem to think that if you take off the resort wrist band and try to leave the resort, you get shot or something:)

Welcome back. I'm glad you enjoyed it. And you're doing a great job at informing people here about the reality of Cuba, rather than the anti-Cuban propaganda. Keep it up. :)
It's just sad that people focus so much on decrying Castro, and Cuba, when there are so many more countries out there that need our attention...countries where people are tortured and murdered by the state, where poverty is rampant and children die from preventible illness...countries which despite being capitalist, have not even come close to providing for the welfare of their people the way Cuba has.

I'll just stick to the pure might of socialist edens... You can't find those in any Mcdonalds or Mcpanda or whatever...
Oh, that was the other thing that seemed so odd in Cuba...you won't find advertisements anywhere. Oh, a few inside the bus stations for trips to Cuba...but I mean ads for goods. They don't exist. No shiny Coca-Cola billboards...all the signs in Cuba are full of socialist propaganda. And not propaganda in a negative sense...nothing overwhelming or anything...not like what I expected. I didn't realise how used I was to advertisements until I didn't see any.

I'm more amused by the idea that somehow Cuba has a better handle on it than any other nation on Earth. Your words, your illusionary argument to battle against.

No, because in most socialist nations people don't have enough to eat, have to contend with daily power shortages, lack access to clean water, and have to suffer under a repressive regime that bars any and all access to free information under threat of severe punishment from the government. Daily power shortages, lack of access to clean water, not enough food to eat...even repressive regimes are also the hallmark of many a capitalist nation.

Even if Cuba is an exception to these things, the rest of the former Communist world is a testament to the utter failiure of socialist theory in practice.Well, I tell ya...I would've visited Russia anytime after...okay...LONG after Stalin...but I wouldn't want to go right now.

*snip*
Stop comparing Cuba to the US. Compare it to other nations in Latin America. You go to Lima, and then to Havana, and tell me which is the better, cleaner, safer city to live in. Even Chile, which is fairly prosperous, is not a nation I would chose to visit over Cuba...not with my kids. And the things you speak of are annoyances...not life threatening or even particularly horrible, (toilet seats? they generally don't use them anyway in Cuba, and many Latin American countries...and don't get me started on the lack of toilet paper!!!!)...when you see children with open sores on their legs, sitting in filth, clothed in rags, begging in La Paz, and compare these children to the poorest Cuban child, you can not say with a straight face that Cubans have it that bad.

Not anymore :) With Chavez in Venezuela, and more recently Morales in Bolivia, the people of those countries will very likely have access to food, housing, health care and education soon. In Venezuela, it's already well under the way, thanks to the cooperation between Venezuela and Cuba. More 600 free health care providing centers are just about to open in Venezuela, millions of people are receiving free litteracy lessons, ... :)How horrible. This must all mean that freedom is dead in the Americas. Because we all know that helping the lazy poor is just stealing from the hardworking rich, and therefore anti-freedom.

As for what will happen when Fidel dies? Ah, well, I too once believed that Cuba would fall apart when that happens, but after speaking to so many people about it, I realise that Cuba is NOT a cult of Fidel. People are educated, sharp, and aware of what is happening in Cuba and around the world. Nor is it an absolute dictatorship. There is more direct REAL democracy there than in my own country...with people in neighbourhoods, cities, and provinces making real decisions about what is done in those areas. When Fidel dies, Cuba will go on as Cuba.
Why is it a dictatorship? Do the Cubans love Fidel that much?

Are you saying that power is fairly decentralised? That's good.

Oh, I also got deleted during your holiday. I was Eruantalon before and Swimmingpool before that.

I am fascinated by this information of yours. It's amazing that Cuba does this without the need to trade with America.

As I said, there is a fair amount of tourism to Cuba from the US (via other countries), and people love telling you stories about this 'great USian' that visited last week...the ones with the bad reputation are the Italians and the Russians.
Do they call them "USians"? ;)

you expect Neocons to break -Uncle Bushios- stupid embargo?
Isn't it Eisenhower's/JFK's embargo?

don't kid yourself bush may have strangthen that embargo but every president since kennedy has maintained it, even centrist uncle bill just weakened it a little bit.
Given that I regard Clinton as a conservative, I'm surprised by this information.

What's the situation with private enterprise over there? can't people start their own businesses but only if they employ family members or something along those lines?

How are businesses run? Are quotas produced from high up, managers elected, decisions made by elected councils, what?

What's the situation with private enterprise over there? can't people start their own businesses but only if they employ family members or something along those lines?

How are businesses run? Are quotas produced from high up, managers elected, decisions made by elected councils, what?

While you're at it, make sure that you deny that it's Communist...

While you're at it, make sure that you deny that it's Communist...

Degenerate worker's state, not communist

Why is it a dictatorship? Do the Cubans love Fidel that much?They weather him, like one weathers any politician.
Some love him, some hate him...most tolerate him because he's doing a pretty good job. Two or three times a week, he gets on tv and runs down all the expenses and new initiatives that are planned. It gets as detailed as saying, "look, we found out that we've been paying too much for evaporated milk from Denmark, and France has actually offered to sell it to us cheaper, so we'll be buying in bulk within the month from France". You can go into any ministry, demand to have an accounting of all their expenses, and you'll get it. That information is readily accessible.
Are you saying that power is fairly decentralised? That's good. Yes, it is. Certain things need to be changed on a country wide level...for example, if they suddenly wanted to go completely capitalist...but most things are handled at the regional level. Oh, that's the other thing...there IS capitalism in Cuba folks. Private casa particulares (the bed and breakfasts I suggest over the hotels) being the main one. There is a lot of small time legal enterprise like ice-cream stands, pizza stands, and so on, as well as medium sized businesses, auto-shops and so on. Not all employment is through the state. These businesses are subject to taxation, and licensing fees (just as they are in Canada). Many of the huge resorts are owned in part by foreign companies...and even the telecommunication industry is partially foreign-owned.

Oh, I also got deleted during your holiday. I was Eruantalon before and Swimmingpool before that. I didn't know you were Swimmingpool too!!!!!

I am fascinated by this information of yours. It's amazing that Cuba does this without the need to trade with America. The butter is all from France or Belgium, the meat is produced locally (you won't find much beef though!), very few fruits or veggies are imported, and Cuba does HUGE trade with China right now. In fact, China is building a computer factory in Venezuela and will be exporting heavily to Cuba in the near future.


Do they call them "USians"? ;) No, mostly yumas (any foreigner) or gringos. The ones they like, the ones that actually come visit, they call estadounidenses.

It is true castro puts down desenters and surpresses freedoms?

Something that happened while we were in Cuba showed an interesting way of dealing with corruption. Gas stations around the country were losing millions of dollars, and after an investigation, it was found that rampant skimming was the cause. A little here, a little there, but it added up. Now, because the business is state owned, no one had a stake in keeping this corruption quiet in order to profit personally...other than the ones doing the pilfering of course, but this is nothing like corporations who pilfer, and rip off the system...this was hurting the country. So the government (re: the government does not mean Castro by the way...it's much more complex than that...like most governments are) got a bunch of social workers (which is what they call young people who do various jobs around the country and the world...not just health workers) to start monitoring all gas stations. They were made supervisors, and were accountable for all the money coming in and going out. The pilfering was made impossible, and the government stopped losing money. I suspect something similar may be done in the casas particulares in the near future.

What's the situation with private enterprise over there? can't people start their own businesses but only if they employ family members or something along those lines? It's tough to start up your own business, because of the cost. For example, one of the most profitable private enterprises is to rent out your home to tourists. Not just anyone can do it. In fact, if you want to just stay at a friend's house in Cuba, they need to pay a licensing fee, and ensure that they aren't profiting (you can't pay them) from it. So. Your house needs to be big enough, and in good enough shape to rent out a few rooms. You can charge a certain amount (capped) for the rent, and no more. You pay a start-up licensing fee, and a monthly fee which has nothing to do with how many people you rent to. If you rent to no one all month, you pay the same amount as if you rent like crazy the whole month. You can also charge a certain set amount for meals. It can be very profitable...for example...you pay about $5 for all the food to feed two tourists a huge lobster meal with congrí, salad, yucca, and so on, and you can charge $20 for it.

Most of these houses hire people to help clean and cook, and no, they don't have to be family. There is no restriction on hiring family or not. Basically, private enterprise is restricted because most enterprise is state run...but you CAN do it, provided you have the start-up capital...and no, they aren't big on loans or credit in Cuba.

How are businesses run? Are quotas produced from high up, managers elected, decisions made by elected councils, what? I only know some of this, I can't give you the bigger picture, but for example, one of the cigar factories we went to, there were loose quotas based on the time it takes to roll a cigar, and the (mostly women) had a council among themselves to allocate funds towards things like fans, or headscarves for work, if that's what they chose. Of course, you get more headscarves (to sop up sweat) than you get fans...but they get to choose. The weirdest thing was, as the women were working, someone sits up front and reads to them. They were reading Les Miserables that week. Last week they said it was Gabriel Garcia Marquez. And the company encouraged the women to take time off to go study...they would have the job when they came back.

While you're at it, make sure that you deny that it's Communist...
Well, since you're answering for me, I guess I don't need to.

Well, since you're answering for me, I guess I don't need to.
I'm just used to every Communist on NS denying that any nation has ever been Communist, in order to deny that Communism ever results in anything bad.

Cool, though I'm not sure I could enjoy a vacation to Cuba. No freedom = boredom for me. I don't do well under the constant threat of death.

Well...you should try "Liberated Cuba" them, also know as Guantanamo Base. No torture, no executions and a lot of canned ham!

It is true castro puts down desenters and surpresses freedoms?
Not to the extent some would have you believe. You aren't whisked out your bed by the secret police...you aren't arrested for shouting in the town square that Fidel has a stinky bottom...you won't be tortured or executed. People routinely harangue Fidel about this or that...why can't we have more Levi jeans, why can't we have this...and he answers them. He sits there, and explains why these goods are still so expensive in Cuba, he lets them know about new trade deals with countries like China...the man is obscenely reasonable. Cuba has some sticky laws to protect its 'national security'...somewhat like the US does. Yes, some journalists have been jailed, and yes, the freedom of information is not that great...but the average Cuban knows more about what is going on in the world than most Canadians I know. So what is being supressed? Mostly anti-Castro, anti-Cuba messages...messages that are generally not backed up by much, that don't try to actually engage in debate, but are rather 'shouted' in their way...there is a lot of meaningful debate about what Cuba should be doing IN Cuba...programs are questioned, people protest shortages, make a stink about energy costs going up...and none of these people are threatened at all.

Hey Sin!! Welcome Back!!! :fluffle:

I'm sorry your vacation is over, but glad you're back-missed you.

I'm just used to every Communist on NS denying that any nation has ever been Communist, in order to deny that Communism ever results in anything bad.
Oh...the old, 'that wasn't true communism' argument. Hmmm. Well, I'm not a true communist, so I can't comment:p

Not to the extent some would have you believe. You aren't whisked out your bed by the secret police...you aren't arrested for shouting in the town square that Fidel has a stinky bottom...you won't be tortured or executed. People routinely harangue Fidel about this or that...why can't we have more Levi jeans, why can't we have this...and he answers them. He sits there, and explains why these goods are still so expensive in Cuba, he lets them know about new trade deals with countries like China...the man is obscenely reasonable. Cuba has some sticky laws to protect its 'national security'...somewhat like the US does. Yes, some journalists have been jailed, and yes, the freedom of information is not that great...but the average Cuban knows more about what is going on in the world than most Canadians I know. So what is being supressed? Mostly anti-Castro, anti-Cuba messages...messages that are generally not backed up by much, that don't try to actually engage in debate, but are rather 'shouted' in their way...there is a lot of meaningful debate about what Cuba should be doing IN Cuba...programs are questioned, people protest shortages, make a stink about energy costs going up...and none of these people are threatened at all.


Tell you what. Next time you go back to Cuba, sit with your friends in a public place where you know people will hear you, and have all of you talk loudly about how you want to form a political party apart from the one party that they have now - you know, in order to make elections more fair - give people a real choice.

See how long it takes before you are arrested.

Hey Sin!! Welcome Back!!! :fluffle:

I'm sorry your vacation is over, but glad you're back-missed you.
Thanks! I think we may go back in March...prime Marlin fishing:) I went scuba diving in the Bay of Pigs! Me! I'm terrified of the water, and can't swim but I did it! It was awesome!

Oh, and as for those who commented that it was obvious I was a gringa tourist...I actually constantly got mistaken for a Venezuelan. People were shouting, " ¡Qué viva Venezuela! ¡Qué viva la gente de Chavez!" and asking me about this or that program in Venezuela. It was kind of weird!

Tell you what. Next time you go back to Cuba, sit with your friends in a public place where you know people will hear you, and have all of you talk loudly about how you want to form a political party apart from the one party that they have now - you know, in order to make elections more fair - give people a real choice.

See how long it takes before you are arrested.Alright...if you really want me to. What I did do, was sit with a group of Cubans in an outdoor restaurant, and ask them things like, "What do you think of Castro" and "tell me what are the things that piss you off most about Cuba". They, loudly, told me. And it wasn't all flattering. We sat there for four and a half hours talking politics. Loudly. Drinking rum, and smoking populares. We didn't get arrested. How odd.

Thanks! I think we may go back in March...prime Marlin fishing:) I went scuba diving in the Bay of Pigs! Me! I'm terrified of the water, and can't swim but I did it! It was awesome!

Oh, and as for those who commented that it was obvious I was a gringa tourist...I actually constantly got mistaken for a Venezuelan. People were shouting, " ¡Qué viva Venezuela! ¡Qué viva la gente de Chavez!" and asking me about this or that program in Venezuela. It was kind of weird!

Thats fantastic! Did you get any kind of scuba certification? Great sport,espceially in the carribean. Glad to hear you overcame your fears of the water, just dont get over confident.

Venezuela? I guess that could happen.
People sometime mistake me as being from Staten Island. :p

Sounds just like every other hellhole on earth. No Drugs? WTF? That isn't freedom no matter what other conditions exist. I bet they have strict gun control too. And did you say checkpoints? Pfft. I’d prefer to save my money and stay in the hellhole I currently inhabit.

Thats fantastic! Did you get any kind of scuba certification? Great sport,espceially in the carribean. Glad to hear you overcame your fears of the water, just dont get over confident. Na, the 'course' was a ten minute lesson on how to do it, and then we just dived in. I got to see the corral reef...it was so friggin' incredible...just like on the Discovery channel:). Next time, I'll take an underwater camera with me. Then, at a place called Caleta Buena, which is kind of a natural pool of seawater, sheltered by an outcropping of volcanic rock, I started to learn how to swim. I can't wait to go back!

Venezuela? I guess that could happen.
People sometime mistake me as being from Staten Island. :p
:p

Alright...if you really want me to. What I did do, was sit with a group of Cubans in an outdoor restaurant, and ask them things like, "What do you think of Castro" and "tell me what are the things that piss you off most about Cuba". They, loudly, told me. And it wasn't all flattering. We sat there for four and a half hours talking politics. Loudly. Drinking rum, and smoking populares. We didn't get arrested. How odd.

That's legal. Forming a political party other than the one the government has is illegal.

Go and try it. On your next trip. In fact, bring money, flyers, and a manifesto to help get it started.

When you arrive, make a list of your friends.

You know, just the sort of political organization you might feel free to start in Canada.

In fact, I'll make a bet with you - if I win, you won't be coming back.

That's legal. Forming a political party other than the one the government has is illegal.

Go and try it. On your next trip. In fact, bring money, flyers, and a manifesto to help get it started.

When you arrive, make a list of your friends.

You know, just the sort of political organization you might feel free to start in Canada.

In fact, I'll make a bet with you - if I win, you won't be coming back.
Whatever Kimchi. Pick your bone with someone else. No nation is perfect...but Cuba is certainly not the horrible, tolitarian, scary place that the US wants the world to think it is. Are we done?

That's legal. Forming a political party other than the one the government has is illegal.

Go and try it. On your next trip. In fact, bring money, flyers, and a manifesto to help get it started.

When you arrive, make a list of your friends.

You know, just the sort of political organization you might feel free to start in Canada.

In fact, I'll make a bet with you - if I win, you won't be coming back.


In fact, I'm so sure that you would get in trouble, that if I was to notify the Cuban Embassy that you were going to head to Cuba to organize a political party, they would deny you entry to the country forever.

Sounds just like every other hellhole on earth. No Drugs? WTF? That isn't freedom no matter what other conditions exist. I bet they have strict gun control too. And did you say checkpoints? Pfft. I’d prefer to save my money and stay in the hellhole I currently inhabit.
Haaa...actually, there WEREN'T checkpoints, which was really weird for me. Nope, no drugs, not even pot, which for a Canadian was a bit shocking:). Still, it also means they don't have meth heads running around stabbing people in the eye (which happened in my very small town only a week before I left to go to Cuba), no crack heads robbing people...but people drink openly in the street, handle their liquor and don't brawl...routinely drink and drive with little problem (few accidents...maybe because of low speeds or narrow streets? I'm not sure...they drive like maniacs, but it seems safer than in Canada!)..have lots and lots of sex...the kids start at about age 13...no guns, but what the hell do you need them for? People don't hunt (well, we actually did meet ONE hunter who had a permit to hunt birds), and they don't 'need it for protection'. So hellhole? Your definition. Not mine.

In fact, I'm so sure that you would get in trouble, that if I was to notify the Cuban Embassy that you were going to head to Cuba to organize a political party, they would deny you entry to the country forever.
:rolleyes:

Was there much by way of propaganda,ie loudspeakers,radio etc?

The best place we went was the town of Playa Girón. (Again, where the invasion force landed in the Bay of Pigs). They have a 'hotel' there that is actually a bunch of separate cabins on the beach. It was pricey in comparison to the casas we'd been staying at...it was $22 a person, with breakfast included a night. Steal, pretty cheap overall. Plus, the hotel was full of cubans...there were very few tourists. Cubans can stay with Cubans, just not with tourists...but it's not that hard to 'sneak' into a room...anyway. There is a little club close to the hotel too, and MAN can these people dance! It's been long enough out of Latin America now that I'd forgotten...reggetón is huge in Cuba right now, and it means a whole lot of serious ass shaking. It's mesmerising!

Hmmm...some more info...Cubans LOVE movies. They get ALL the latest Hollywood productions in the theaters ($3 MN for Cubans, $3 CUC for tourists) as well as great movies from all over Latin America and Europe. Late at night, most people some US programs (for some reason the signal come in around 8) and people LOVE the television show CSI. They are lobbying to get the channel telemundo (which is a Miami channel) because they get a taste of it at night.

Really now? Maybe you have to live there for a couple of years or been there in the eariler years. Im Cuban and so is my whole family. You tell them Cuba is a good country they will tell you it once was. My dads Uncle got shot up from trying to leave. He got away though.


There are lots of stuff a tourists won't see because Cuba is made to look nice on the outside. The other reason is as castro get older the more he looses grip. He has elhismers(( or how ever you spell it.)) so thats why most people where talking out loud because they know Castro is dieing and soon.

Don't be surpised when castro dies your not gonna be able to go to Cuba for awhile.

Na, the 'course' was a ten minute lesson on how to do it, and then we just dived in. I got to see the corral reef...it was so friggin' incredible...just like on the Discovery channel:). Next time, I'll take an underwater camera with me. Then, at a place called Caleta Buena, which is kind of a natural pool of seawater, sheltered by an outcropping of volcanic rock, I started to learn how to swim. I can't wait to go back!



I was afraid of that. Do yourself-and your loved ones- a favor- take an official PADI course.

I would've guessed you to be a swimmer.

Was there much by way of propaganda,ie loudspeakers,radio etc? Well, there are billboards everywhere saying things like "Soberana (Sovereign)" "Socialista (obvious)" and "Venceremos (we will triumph)" as well as " 2006, El año de la revolución energetica (2006 is the year of the energy revolution)"...oh, and lots about "Los 5 volverán (the 5 will return...the five Cubans arrested for 'spying' in the US)". You see these billboards instead of advertising. No loudspeakers...there was a huge rally in Havana when we were there, about a million people in the streets...it was an anti-Bush protest...but no one was forced to go. The radio stations are have interviews from time to time but tend to blast the music more often than pausing for propaganda. Television...aside from the few speeches by Fidel, you have the news, you have Cuban and Mexican soap operas (which I love), and all sorts of other kinds of programming. In fact, I was very underwhelmed by the propaganda. There just wasn't that much.

Oh but I really wish someone would check the English translation of signs...the translations are generally just horrible...and sometimes very, very funny.

I was afraid of that. Do yourself-and your loved ones- a favor- take an official PADI course. Na...I'll just let the instructor hold my hand while I swim:)

I would've guessed you to be a swimmer.You'd think so...I grew up right beside a lake...but no, I never learned.

Haaa...actually, there WEREN'T checkpoints, which was really weird for me. Nope, no drugs, not even pot, which for a Canadian was a bit shocking:). Still, it also means they don't have meth heads running around stabbing people in the eye (which happened in my very small town only a week before I left to go to Cuba), no crack heads robbing people...but people drink openly in the street, handle their liquor and don't brawl...routinely drink and drive with little problem (few accidents...maybe because of low speeds or narrow streets?
You make drug control sound like a good thing. Pathetic. I thought you Canadians were cool. The truth is you fall for the same lies as everyone else. Drugs wouldn't be a problem if they were legal.
no guns, but what the hell do you need them for? People don't hunt (well, we actually did meet ONE hunter who had a permit to hunt birds), and they don't 'need it for protection'. So hellhole? Your definition. Not mine.
It doesn’t matter if you need them or not. Any restriction on what a person can consensually do with their money is a crime against nature. Cuba is no different that anywhere else, and your temporary fascination with it sickens me, as does the whiff of smug self-righteousness I detect in your “debunking.”

Really now? Maybe you have to live there for a couple of years or been there in the eariler years. Im Cuban and so is my whole family. You tell them Cuba is a good country they will tell you it once was. My dads Uncle got shot up from trying to leave. He got away though.


There are lots of stuff a tourists won't see because Cuba is made to look nice on the outside. The other reason is as castro get older the more he looses grip. He has elhismers(( or how ever you spell it.)) so thats why most people where talking out loud because they know Castro is dieing and soon.

Don't be surpised when castro dies your not gonna be able to go to Cuba for awhile.
I'll just address the bolded quotation. We went anywhere we pleased in Cuba. We paid the $50 fee and stayed with Cubans that weren't set up as casas particulares. Nice on the outside? Hell, even the resorts aren't that nice looking. There is no glossy tourist area where everything is clean and shockingly different than the rest of Cuba. We stayed in a shack in the country with a dirt floor...the house was thatched with palm leaves, and the siding was formed by splitting the wood from fruit crates. Cuba looks the same on the inside as it does on the outside. Worn down. Not glitzy. But still beautiful for all that. Your family chose not to live there and that's fine...my husband's family chose not to live in Chile. But even with what they went through there, they don't badmouth Chile the way so many ex-pat Cubans do. Cuba is a fine country. Probably the best off country in Latin America, if not in total prosperity, then in terms of living conditions. It isn't the US. It isn't Canada. But it's still one hell of a place to live.

Na...I'll just let the instructor hold my hand while I swim:)

You'd think so...I grew up right beside a lake...but no, I never learned.

It sounds like you're going to learn now.


Anyhow- dont tell me about any political crap-how was the food? What did you eat?
Rum is among my weaknesses-spiced to be exact. You partook, huh?

You make drug control sound like a good thing. Pathetic. I thought you Canadians were cool. The truth is you fall for the same lies as everyone else. Drugs wouldn't be a problem if they were legal.Well, in Cuba, drugs aren't a problem, and they are illegal. I never said I agreed with the policy, but it's their policy, and it works.

It doesn’t matter if you need them or not. Any restriction on what a person can consensually do with their money is a crime against nature. Cuba is no different that anywhere else, and your temporary fascination with it sickens me, as does the whiff of smug self-righteousness I detect in your “debunking.”
Your priorities are yours. Not mine. Your permanent facination with wealth over the welfare of humans just makes me shrug. Your self-righteousness just bores me. You have nothing to say about Cuba except that you are entirely ignorant about it. But thanks for your contribution anyway.

It sounds like you're going to learn now.


Anyhow- dont tell me about any political crap-how was the food? What did you eat?
Rum is among my weaknesses-spiced to be exact. You partook, huh?Ay...the food! People told me so many bad things about the food! I imagine it's not that great in the resorts...when you cook for a lot of people, the quality of the food tends to spiral downwards. We ate like kings...in fact, I ended up fasting the last couple of days because I just couldn't handle it anymore. I really like the congrí, which is rice with black beans. I love the yucca (I'd never had it before) and while I'm not a huge fan of either pork or chicken, we had plenty of roasted and fried plates that changed my mind. No red meat though...apparently you can get some in the resorts, but not elsewhere...it's very expensive because they don't raise much beef. Fresh fruits and veggies...and the piña coladas were insane! The rum is cheap as hell...2 bucks a bottle, and when you order a drink they hand the bottle to you so you can mix the alcohol yourself. I tried all the varieties...I like the white rum the best, but others swear by the aged. Lots of lobster, shrimp, and fish...the meals in the casas were way better than in the restaurants, and much cheaper. I ate like a pig.

Ay...the food! People told me so many bad things about the food! I imagine it's not that great in the resorts...when you cook for a lot of people, the quality of the food tends to spiral downwards. We ate like kings...in fact, I ended up fasting the last couple of days because I just couldn't handle it anymore. I really like the congrí, which is rice with black beans. I love the yucca (I'd never had it before) and while I'm not a huge fan of either pork or chicken, we had plenty of roasted and fried plates that changed my mind. No red meat though...apparently you can get some in the resorts, but not elsewhere...it's very expensive because they don't raise much beef. Fresh fruits and veggies...and the piña coladas were insane! The rum is cheap as hell...2 bucks a bottle, and when you order a drink they hand the bottle to you so you can mix the alcohol yourself. I tried all the varieties...I like the white rum the best, but others swear by the aged. Lots of lobster, shrimp, and fish...the meals in the casas were way better than in the restaurants, and much cheaper. I ate like a pig.


Aged dark rum with lime is the best. I sip it these days.
I dont like clear rums-to much like hair tonics.

Did you have any conch? Just thinking about it now, I can taste it.
Raw, or conch fritters. You must have had it.

Well, in Cuba, drugs aren't a problem, and they are illegal. I never said I agreed with the policy, but it's their policy, and it works.


Your priorities are yours. Not mine. Your permanent facination with wealth over the welfare of humans just makes me shrug. Your self-righteousness just bores me. You have nothing to say about Cuba except that you are entirely ignorant about it. But thanks for your contribution anyway.
Bah. None of this will matter in a few years anyway; Peak Oil will destroy the Cuba that you know and love, along with the rest of the world. You’d be better off not going back, saving your money, and investing it in gold, diamonds, guns and moving to a place where you don't have to have a heater in the winter.

Aged dark rum with lime is the best. I sip it these days.
I dont like clear rums-to much like hair tonics.

Did you have any conch? Just thinking about it now, I can taste it.
Raw, or conch fritters. You must have had it.
No, no conch. Next time:) And I'm now addicted to mojitos...rum, mint leaves, sugar, lime, water...and more rum.

Bah. None of this will matter in a few years anyway; Peak Oil will destroy the Cuba that you know and love, along with the rest of the world. You’d be better off not going back, saving your money, and investing it in gold, diamonds, guns and moving to a place where you don't have to have a heater in the winter.
I'm hoping global warming will solve this for me so I don't have to move...this winter is insanely warm. Insanely. But why save my money? It won't be worth anything when Peak Oil destroys the world...so I'll blow it vacationing, and plan on living in the bush when all hell breaks loose.

Oh, and Canadians...Cuba is CHEAP to get to!!! CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP! If you check the prices regularly, you can get a round trip flight from Calgary for $240, that's all taxes included. From Toronto, the deals are even crazier. Screw the resorts...we spent about $1500 less just taking the cheap flight, and staying in casas.

No, no conch. Next time:) And I'm now addicted to mojitos...rum, mint leaves, sugar, lime, water...and more rum.

I've had a sip of a girlfriend's mojito-seemed a bit feminine to me.

By now you know I'm more a purist, very little interest in more than one or two ingredients.
Rum and Coke may be as far as I go in that respect.

although, come to think of it, I do love a good Bloody Mary, with a premium vodka and loads of different spices. I think thats an exception.

I'm hoping global warming will solve this for me so I don't have to move...this winter is insanely warm. Insanely. But why save my money? It won't be worth anything when Peak Oil destroys the world...so I'll blow it vacationing, and plan on living in the bush when all hell breaks loose.
When I say invest, I mean buy gold and diamonds. Tangible wealth.

I'm hoping global warming will solve this for me so I don't have to move...this winter is insanely warm. Insanely. But why save my money? It won't be worth anything when Peak Oil destroys the world...so I'll blow it vacationing, and plan on living in the bush when all hell breaks loose.

Living in the bush, eh? This from the pocahantas wearing swimmies. *L*

You're going to need to brush up on your basic survival skills first. Let me know when you're ready.

When I say invest, I mean buy gold and diamonds. Tangible wealth.
What use is that? Gold won't even make a proper club. Better learn to breed animals and grow crops.

When I say invest, I mean buy gold and diamonds. Tangible wealth.
Can you eat them? Not tangible enough then:)

Living in the bush, eh? This from the pocahantas wearing swimmies. *L*

You're going to need to brush up on your basic survival skills first. Let me know when you're ready.
I'm a fast learner. Especially when I'm hungry. Anyway. Cuba libres are great too...but I didn't get a wee bit tired of rum.

Ok- I'm off to stuff pork chops with spinachj and saute them in tomato & onions. I'm freaking starving.

Be well, Sin-glad to have you back.

later

I've had a sip of a girlfriend's mojito-seemed a bit feminine to me.

By now you know I'm more a purist, very little interest in more than one or two ingredients.
Rum and Coke may be as far as I go in that respect.

although, come to think of it, I do love a good Bloody Mary, with a premium vodka and loads of different spices. I think thats an exception.
My husband drank rum straight...like it was water...and paid for it. The Cubans we were with drank rum straight...like it was water...and were fine:) I hate liquor straight up. Oh, and I got to eat crocodile! Yummy! Like a cross between chicken and fish. Very tasty. And on the last day we ate some turtle. Also yummy...more like pork.

Why are they bad mouthing Cuba? Because in first years Castro killed alot of or imprisoned alot of people. Took land and money away from people. Lied to the people. remeber Castro was supported by the US to overthrow Bastia but castro turned on the cuban people. Thats ex-Cubans don't like Castro. They love Cuba but not Castro. Hey if Cuba where to become free tommorrow you would see alot of people going back.

It was so beyond a good time...the only downer was that we left our daughters behind. Next time they will absolutely be traveling with us!

So, you are saying that Fidel is holding your daughters until you come back?

No wonder you are "debunking lies" ;)

(So where are my Cigars and Rum?)

I'm a fast learner. Especially when I'm hungry. Anyway. Cuba libres are great too...but I didn't get a wee bit tired of rum.


I know you are.

I've had a love/hate relationship with rum over the years. My wife referred to it as my "dark master" at one time. *L*
She is still anxious when I set sail with the Captain.

Why are they bad mouthing Cuba? Because in first years Castro killed alot of or imprisoned alot of people. Took land and money away from people. Lied to the people. remeber Castro was supported by the US to overthrow Bastia but castro turned on the cuban people. Thats ex-Cubans don't like Castro. They love Cuba but not Castro. Hey if Cuba where to become free tommorrow you would see alot of people going back.
And you'd see a lot of people telling them not to bother. Revolutions are violent...but unlike other revolutions, the Cuban revolution has not continued in its violence. And yes, land and money was taken away. Cuba is socialist. What do you expect? Castro was supported by the US? You have your facts wrong. Batista was supported by the US. And not all ex-cubans hate Castro...not even all Miami Cubans hate Castro.

My husband drank rum straight...like it was water...and paid for it. The Cubans we were with drank rum straight...like it was water...and were fine:) I hate liquor straight up. Oh, and I got to eat crocodile! Yummy! Like a cross between chicken and fish. Very tasty. And on the last day we ate some turtle. Also yummy...more like pork.

turtle is like pork-yeah-pork with the taint. *L*

I'm really outta here now.

So, you are saying that Fidel is holding your daughters until you come back? That's my one regret...that we didn't take the girls. We just weren't sure it'd be safe...I mean, we wouldn't take them to Chile...not yet. But we are definately bringing them next time!

No wonder you are "debunking lies" ;)

(So where are my Cigars and Rum?)Sorry...apparently you could get into trouble if I tried to send you any. You're better off flying to Toronto and taking a flight straight to Cuba:)

Hey Sin, welcome back. That's really exciting! I know of someone who went on an activist trip around Central and South America, and she said it was fantastic. She got to see heaps of direct action, strikes, communities based on direct democracy etc. I was just wondering if you got to see anything like this, and how it compared to Cuba.

:) Cheers.

Can you eat them? Not tangible enough then:)
There will always be people who covet gold to trade with. There always has been.
But yeah, I forgot about renewabe foodstuffs. Get some of that.

MY facts are wrong? Look at this: http://library.thinkquest.org/20176/crevolution.htm

The US supported Castro during his rule. Castro basically did the same damn thing Basita did. He lied to the people. There where alot farms in Cuba and Castro took that out making people poor so they moved here. If my land was taking away after having it for many years and making alot of money off of it. i would be pissed.

Hey Sin, welcome back. That's really exciting! I know of someone who went on an activist trip around Central and South America, and she said it was fantastic. She got to see heaps of direct action, strikes, communities based on direct democracy etc. I was just wondering if you got to see anything like this, and how it compared to Cuba.

:) Cheers.We did see a hell of a lot of community organising. Over crazy little things even...like someone on the block kept urinating in a particular corner, so the block got together to monitor that corner until they caught the person. Weird. I've seen a lot of activism in Latin America...but I've also travelled to most of the countries there a number of times (except Brazil! WAH!)...I doubt I'll get a real feel for Cuban politics until I've been there a bit longer.

MY facts are wrong? Look at this: http://library.thinkquest.org/20176/crevolution.htm Boy, that was dumb of them, considering they were spending $16 million (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=cuba) a year to help prop Batista up. And sorry, your site doesn't go into any detail about this supposed US support. So they supported Batista, AND the guy who wanted to get rid of him? Sounds a little...nuts.

The US supported Castro during his rule. When, and how. Your site does not provide a single fact. All I'm finding is other sites with that same sentence..."The US supported Castro until he turned communist" and so on. Anyway...even if they did...that's not why people talk so much shit about Cuba.

When I went to Cuba I noticed a lot of people just standing around in the streets patiently as if expecting something to arrive. When I asked what all those people were doing, my tour guide explained that in Cuba car-pooling is encouraged, so people wait around for friends/neighbours/acquaintances to pick them up and drive them wherever. I haven't even seen this level of co-operation between people in Japan.

When I went to Cuba I noticed a lot of people just standing around in the streets patiently as if expecting something to arrive. When I asked what all those people were doing, my tour guide explained that in Cuba car-pooling is encouraged, so people wait around for friends/neighbours/acquaintances to pick them up and drive them wherever. I haven't even seen this level of co-operation between people in Japan.
Yes, this is seen all over. There are a number of methods of transportation. The buses, which are packed full to bursting, and the black and yellow taxis which are cooperatives...they run a specific route, just like a bus, but cost a bit more. Many people arrange rides with those that have cars (many do not). There are always people standing along the roads trying to hitch a ride...and people generally pick them up. It's very strange to see a car with just one person in it in Cuba (usually a tourist in a rental)...why would you do that anyway? Cubans love to socialise, and a ride alone is boring:) But they also pack their bicycles full...one person in front, one in the seat, and one person riding behind is quite common. By the way...for tourists who plan on renting a car, picking up hitchikers is much better than a road map, as many directional signs are easy to miss...or missing altogether. And you aren't going to get mugged or robbed.

not that i wish ill for castro, but this would be a relatively good time for cuba to transition with the strong support in the rest of latin america for leftist governments, if he had died in the 80s i shutter to think what would have happened(i still miss the sandinistas though i'm sure they still exist in the opposition in nicaragua).

The Sandinistas were fascist assholes. They tried to invade Costa Rica supplied with US tanks, guns, food and other supplies. Costa Rica does not have an army. Nicaragua still got its ass kicked.

Boy, that was dumb of them, considering they were spending $16 million (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=cuba) a year to help prop Batista up. And sorry, your site doesn't go into any detail about this supposed US support. So they supported Batista, AND the guy who wanted to get rid of him? Sounds a little...nuts.

When, and how. Your site does not provide a single fact. All I'm finding is other sites with that same sentence..."The US supported Castro until he turned communist" and so on. Anyway...even if they did...that's not why people talk so much shit about Cuba.

Actually thats the wrong way around; its not that the US supported Castro untill he turned communist, its that Castro turned communist when the US stopped supporting him.

I tried to find international homocide statistics (I know homocide is a very small percentage of overall crime) that include Cuba , which is rather difficult. Anyway, this is what I could find.

http://www.haciendapub.com/Images/table1.jpg
http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~cpb/peace/countries.htm

I tried to find international homocide statistics (I know homocide is a very small percentage of overall crime) that include Cuba , which is rather difficult. Anyway, this is what I could find.

http://www.haciendapub.com/Images/table1.jpg
http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~cpb/peace/countries.htm
Interesting. Notice these stats include "Homicide and injury purposely inflicted by other persons," "Other violence," and "Other external causes."...I wonder what other violence and other external causes are? Cuba is behind (just) the US...but quite far behind Argentina, Chile, Nicaragua...etc. I wonder what the comparative rates of rape and assaults are? Someone had a great site a while back...I'll try to find it.

Edit: And check out the Dominican Republic...another hot tourist spot...yikes!

Boy, that was dumb of them, considering they were spending $16 million (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=cuba) a year to help prop Batista up. And sorry, your site doesn't go into any detail about this supposed US support. So they supported Batista, AND the guy who wanted to get rid of him? Sounds a little...nuts.

Well, that's not that uncommon for politicians to support both side of conflict, hoping that whoever finally wins, they'll feel good towards you.

But on this case, the US were on the side of Batista. And many of the most vocal "Miami Cuban" opposing Castro are people who had a high position during Batista, and they are protected by USA, even when they are guilty of terrorism against Cuban civlian (or tourrists).

It is true castro puts down desenters and surpresses freedoms?
Yes. It's no China, but it happens (http://www.amnesty.ie/content/view/full/3443).

Wow, I just realised that I wrote "homocide" and not "homicide". Oops! :eek:

Cuba does HUGE trade with China right now.
That's a pity, though I suppose capitalist nations are no better.

I'm just used to every Communist on NS denying that any nation has ever been Communist, in order to deny that Communism ever results in anything bad.
That's because most of these people mean Marx's no-government utopia fantasy when they say "Communist". According to that definition (the most correct one), they are perfectly right to say that no nation has ever been communist.

Tell you what. Next time you go back to Cuba, sit with your friends in a public place where you know people will hear you, and have all of you talk loudly about how you want to form a political party apart from the one party that they have now - you know, in order to make elections more fair - give people a real choice.

See how long it takes before you are arrested.
You seem to know a lot more about how it is in Cuba than Sinuhue, who actually has been there.

You make drug control sound like a good thing. Pathetic. I thought you Canadians were cool. The truth is you fall for the same lies as everyone else. Drugs wouldn't be a problem if they were legal.

Drugs are not a problem in Cuba according to Sinuhue.

It doesn’t matter if you need them or not. Any restriction on what a person can consensually do with their money is a crime against nature.
How can it be a crime against nature? Money doesn't exist in nature.

Your political theories may be fun to read about at home, but governments have to be more pragmatic than that.

Wow, I just realised that I wrote "homocide" and not "homicide". Oops! :eek:
I had to check if I did the same:)

Oh, that was the other thing that seemed so odd in Cuba...you won't find advertisements anywhere. Oh, a few inside the bus stations for trips to Cuba...but I mean ads for goods. They don't exist. No shiny Coca-Cola billboards...all the signs in Cuba are full of socialist propaganda. And not propaganda in a negative sense...nothing overwhelming or anything...not like what I expected. I didn't realise how used I was to advertisements until I didn't see any.

*nods* And it's the same on TV. No ads. The only "adverts" I saw were government medical and sanitation advice, and other such tips. Oh, and propaganda clips in defence of of the "Miami five". Instead of having to watch companies trying to sell you rubbish, you get health tips. It made a refreshing change from what I'm used to.

I had to check if I did the same:)
Fassicide? ;)

Fassicide? ;)
How did I know his name would come up? And where is he today?

How did I know his name would come up? And where is he today?
In a broom cupboard with one of the new internists... demonstrating new hygene techniques... :eek: :D

Plenty of women in prostitution in Havana. Sexual slavery?there is plenty of Prostitutes in Vegas, LA, NY, etc..

Sierra have you been to Sunset Boulevard lately?

and If you are looking for Earth's greatest concentration of Cuban Prostitutes I suggest you visit Miami.

*nods* And it's the same on TV. No ads. The only "adverts" I saw were government medical and sanitation advice, and other such tips. Oh, and propaganda clips in defence of of the "Miami five". Instead of having to watch companies trying to sell you rubbish, you get health tips. It made a refreshing change from what I'm used to.


We get health tips on TV here in the states: Ask your doctor about Exended Release Moronizone. We won't tell you what its for, but you need to take it anyway.

An observation, it seems like many of my fellow nations, those who excuse, support, and defend the government of President Dictator for life Fidel Castro of Cuba, would like to live in a nation like Cuba, would like thier nation of origin to be like Cuba.

Where as I keep posting, the average Cuban family receives free government provided education and healthcare, where thier kids combine school work with agricultural work.

Where they would not have access to cable or satellite dishes, because that is a form of information, and free thought.

Where their electricity goes off on a regular basis that cubans call light ons.

Where the common forms of transportation are a bicycle to work, foot, and overcrowded buses Cubans call the pill, you take one every 4 hours, unless you happen to be one of those lucky Cubans to have a car from the 50s without all the modern extras.

Where they live in a one political party state and if they disagree with any government policy they can be harassed by government organized mobs, imprisoned or exiled if thier lucky.

Where they are paid in Cuban Pesos for thier work, and have to ask thier overseas living relatives to send them hard currency money so they will be allowed to shop for most of thier basic need products in a government hard currency store in a currency they do not earn.

Where they are not allowed to stay in their own nations hotels and restaurants with hard currency money or Cuban Pesos thier national currency, because it is reserved for tourists, thier overseas living relatives and the priviledged governing elite.

Where the average Cuban gets by through the illegal extensive black market

Welcome to Cuba, paradise cuba style.

Oh, but it seems like they would prefer that paradise because it offers government provided education and healthcare, interesting concept.

Funny how they seem to ignore my posts based on facts, by Cubans who live or have actually lived there.

Just ask me and my family who have lived there under that government, my family who still lives there, and my relatives who have recently emigrated to the USA both legally and on rafts across 90 miles of shark infested waters, we know more about the real Cuba then all those who have gone on vacations, because we have actually lived there.

We get health tips on TV here in the states: Ask your doctor about Exended Release Moronizone. We won't tell you what its for, but you need to take it anyway.

Hehe... Just slightly different, though. ;)

...and who could hate the climate?

More to follow....

I'll bet you $3000 that I could hate the climate.

An observation, it seems like many of my fellow nations, those who excuse, support, and defend the government of President Dictator for life Fidel Castro of Cuba, would like to live in a nation like Cuba, would like thier nation of origin to be like Cuba.

Where as I keep posting, the average Cuban family receives free government provided education and healthcare, where thier kids combine school work with agricultural work. Bullshit. Children are not forced into agricultural work. Perhaps you are thinking of La Isla de la Juventud, which was almost deserted before the revolution? Schools were built all over the island, and young people flocked to it. They also helped to set up the grapefruit plantations on the island, (and no, they weren't forced into agricultural slavery to do it) which is why Castro renamed it the Island of the Young. If agricultural work is being done by children, it's being done by children on farms...just like it's done by children on farms here in Canada. It's called doing chores.


Where they would not have access to cable or satellite dishes, because that is a form of information, and free thought. Right...and the millions of other Latin Americans that don't have cable, satellite, or even tvs...are THEY being denied their fundamental right to free information? Of course not! Because when it's capitalism, it's okay if you go without...but when it's communism, it's suppression of rights!


Where their electricity goes off on a regular basis that cubans call light ons. Which is of course a government conspiracy of some sorts. Please. Power outages are the norm for Latin America. At least all Cubans have access to electricity. You can't say the same even for many Chileans...living in one of the most prosperous Latin American countries.


Where the common forms of transportation are a bicycle to work, foot, and overcrowded buses Cubans call the pill, you take one every 4 hours, unless you happen to be one of those lucky Cubans to have a car from the 50s without all the modern extras. All those Chinese on bicycles must have your heart throbbing with sorrow too. One of the few countries in Latin America where a majority of people can afford to own and operate a car is Venezuela. Why? Because the cost of their gasoline right now is down to about 15 cents a litre. Everywhere else in Latin America, owning and operating a car is an expensive prospect. Oh, you'll see brand new Mercedes of course...because in the REST of Latin America, there exists an elite of the super rich, while the majority of the people live in poverty. You don't see many Mercedes in Cuba, being driven by any elite of super rich...but guess what...Cubans don't live in the poverty that the majority of their Latin counterparts do.


Where they live in a one political party state and if they disagree with any government policy they can be harassed by government organized mobs, imprisoned or exiled if thier lucky. Mexico had a one party state since their Revolution...few people complained or claimed that Mexico was a dictatorship. Why is that I wonder? Because they were still capitalist, so it didn't matter. And I call absolute and utter bullshit on your statement that "if they disagree with any government policy they can be....and so on". When people disagree with a government policy, their representative...their DIRECT representative, whether it is at the barrio, municipal, regional, or provincial level DOES something about it. Why? Because if they don't, they will be voted out. Government organised mobs...roaming the streets, waiting to beat up dissenters...what an active imagination people have. But if you are hellbent on believing that Cubans are all so cowed that they would never voice their opinions...openly, loudly, and repeatedly...then I must have met some truly remarkable and unique (according to you, non-existant) Cubans...because they were ALL like that.


Where they are paid in Cuban Pesos for thier work, and have to ask thier overseas living relatives to send them hard currency money so they will be allowed to shop for most of thier basic need products in a government hard currency store in a currency they do not earn. How can you not understand the difference between the currencies is completely beyond me. Cuban Pesos ARE hard currency. And of course they are paid in it. When the average salary is about $20, you get paid in Cuban Pesos, which are work about 1/24 of a US dollar. Why? Because why the hell would you pay someone $20 Convertible (what you insist on calling hard currency) Pesos, when all the products they buy are in Cuban Pesos? To make it clearer...when a bag of tomatoes costs 10 cents, you don't pay for it with a hundred dollar bill, now do you? When you have Convertible Pesos, and you pay for something that is in Cuban Pesos, you rarely get the right change back...you always lose a bit. So unless you are making large purchases, you don't need Convertible Pesos. And guess why they are called Convertible? Because you can exchange your Cuban Pesos in any bank for them. You can exchange your Canadian dollars, your Euros...whatever currency you have for them. Why are your relatives asking you for 'hard currency'? Because what you send them, probably represents more than they make in a month. NOT because they can't get it. And their basic needs are not sold to them in Convertible Pesos...unless you consider stereo systems and televisions to be basic needs. Food, some clothing, basic household goods are sold in Cuban Pesos.


Where they are not allowed to stay in their own nations hotels and restaurants with hard currency money or Cuban Pesos thier national currency, because it is reserved for tourists, thier overseas living relatives and the priviledged governing elite. I'll explain again. Cubans are not allowed to share a room with tourists. Cubans can stay with Cubans. Why don't you see Cubans flocking to the tourist hotels? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT. Yes, the hotels are for tourists, just as the resorts are. Overseas relatives can afford it. But stop trying to make it sound as though Cubans are somehow banned from hotels. There are certain hotels and cabins that will not allow tourists to book if there are Cubans who want those places. Why? Because these hotels...which are generally a series of little self-contained units, are insanely cheap for tourists, so of course they'd be flocking to them instead of the resorts. For Cubans, these hotels are simply affordable...and they want to ensure that what you are talking about does NOT happen....that Cubans are pushed out by tourists.


Where the average Cuban gets by through the illegal extensive black market Welcome to life in any poor country. That black market you speak of is pretty minimal compared to the open, ubiquitous black market throughout most of Latin America...where you can get anything from photocopied novels, pirated tapes and CDs, to fake designer perfumes and clothes. In Cuba, the 'black market' is generally more a system of bartering. An electrician does some wiring in your house (illegally, because he should be billing for it) and you help him build an addition onto his house. CDs are expensive in Cuba...so people swap pirated ones...kind of like they do here. People sell cups of coffee or baked goods (illegally, because they should be doing it through a shop, and paying taxes on it)...guess what...that kind of thing is not entirely legal here either...because if you hold a bake sale, and don't declare the income, you are cheating on your taxes. Is it a major crime? Does it get investigated a lot? NO. Not here, and guess what....not in Cuba either.


Welcome to Cuba, paradise cuba style. I'll take it over Haiti, Columbia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras etc etc...and yes...even over Chile.


Oh, but it seems like they would prefer that paradise because it offers government provided education and healthcare, interesting concept. Better than seeing children being forced into a life of begging because they can't go to school. Better than seeing people die of preventable diseases because they are too poor to get medical aid. Interesting concept...putting life over material things. Wow.


Funny how they seem to ignore my posts based on facts, by Cubans who live or have actually lived there. Your 'facts' are skewed to present a false image. But you'll notice I'm not ignoring them.


Just ask me and my family who have lived there under that government, my family who still lives there, and my relatives who have recently emigrated to the USA both legally and on rafts across 90 miles of shark infested waters, we know more about the real Cuba then all those who have gone on vacations, because we have actually lived there. Or instead, I'll ask the Cubans themselves, as I have done, and listen to them directly, instead of hearing about Cuba second, and perhaps third hand through you. How's that?

I'll bet you $3000 that I could hate the climate.
Actually, I won't take that bet. This is their winter, and it was like a really, really good Canadian summer. I don't think I could handle the weather in July and August there. Plus, I'm pretty sure I'd like to avoid hurricane season.

Kinda how it should be? So peoplework hard but can't afford clothes or electronics, nobody can afford air conditioning, cookies, crackers, or ANY canned food, and that's how it SHOULD be?

Do me a favor, stay in Canada.

Do us all a favor and suck-start a shotgun.

People don't NEED electronics or labelled clothing, and the houses are built to the climate's standards. Just because someone's idea of a great place to live isn't YOUR wasteful, greedheaded, consumerist perdition doesn't mean theirs is wrong. As for canned and processed food, news flash: that's stuff's bad for you anyway! I'd RATHER have fresh fruits and vegetables and seafood than canned ANYthing. One stat I do know about Cuba is that the infant mortality rate there is 13x less than it is here in the USA. Believe me, I'm going for a visit as soon as I can on the strength of the MUSIC alone! Viva Tumbao!

Where their electricity goes off on a regular basis that cubans call light ons.
We in the states call them "black-outs," or "brown-outs" in California.

Even if the government is fucking the people over, I would still say the government that lets corporations fuck people over is worse.

We in the states call them "black-outs," or "brown-outs" in California.


We in California don't call those 'regular.'

We in California don't call those 'regular.'
I live in the country...except for a few years during University, I've ALWAYS lived in the country. Out here, black outs and brown outs are pretty regular. You make sure you have batteries in your clocks, you don't bother reseting the VCR or microwave clock, and you have surge protectors on EVERYTHING:). We must be oppressed! Down with the oppression of the rural Canadians!

I live in the country...except for a few years during University, I've ALWAYS lived in the country. Out here, black outs and brown outs are pretty regular. You make sure you have batteries in your clocks, you don't bother reseting the VCR or microwave clock, and you have surge protectors on EVERYTHING:). We must be oppressed! Down with the oppression of the rural Canadians!

Electric systems aren't 100% operational at all times, that's just how they are.

But I think you know the difference between having electricity most times that just fails occasionally, and not having electricity in the first place...

Electric systems aren't 100% operational at all times, that's just how they are.

But I think you know the difference between having electricity most times that just fails occasionally, and not having electricity in the first place...Yes. The difference was obvious. In Cuba, everyone has electricity, which fails occasionally. In many neighbourhoods in Lima, in Santiago (Chile), in La Paz, people in slums 'steal' electricity, or go without. Which is why I think the complaints about Cuba's power-outages is rather...laughable.