NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.

I love animals its just that I love to eat them more.-Jim Gafigan

They are different breeds of cows.

Veal, on the other hand, comes from the bull calves born to dairy cows, are you suggesting we should only breed dairy cows and only eat veal (or what do we do with the bull calves on dairy farms if not eat them?)

What do we do about the animal rights groups and extreme vegetarians that think we shouldn't drink milk and eat cheese?

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.
Right on! Milk cows!


Eat their offspring...

What about the 'man' cows? I want nothing to do with their 'milk.'

Kill them, cut them up, package them, fry them up and eat them up!

Am I the only one in the world who understands and appreciates the delicious irony of the cheeseburger? :D

Am I the only one in the world who understands and appreciates the delicious irony of the cheeseburger? :D

No. I think pretty much the entire jewish faith gets it as well.

I much prefer bison meat to that of cows. But that's just me.

I did not fight my way to the top of the food chain so I could eat grass.

I did not fight my way to the top of the food chain so I could eat grass.

Tell me about your evolutionary adventures. Your unconventional ideas fascinate me.

If that's true, why do cows taste so good?

There are different breeds of cows.

Veal, on the other hand, comes from the bull calves born to dairy cows, are you suggesting we should only breed dairy cows and only eat veal (or what do we do with the bull calves on dairy farms if not eat them?)

What do we do about the animal rights groups and extreme vegetarians that think we shouldn't drink milk and eat cheese?


Dont eat bull calves thats weird...We use bulls to have sex with dairy cows so they can have more dairy cows...Extreme vegetarians are wrong because you need to milk dairy cows. It's good for them...

Am I the only one in the world who understands and appreciates the delicious irony of the cheeseburger? :D
No, that's why it's not Kosher to eat an animal and it's offspring or that that was for the offspring if you hadn't killed it to get the milk.

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.

What would have you have done 10,000 years ago? Your denying your humanity!! Feast on the wonderful meat!

Am I the only one in the world who understands and appreciates the delicious irony of the cheeseburger?
__________________
Is it because they produce the milk to make cheese and they are seperated from cheese and then put back together

I much prefer bison meat to that of cows. But that's just me.

Seconded, but cow meat still is good.

I did not fight my way to the top of the food chain so I could eat grass.

You didn't do shit! Thank your ancestors! haha

Tell me about your evolutionary adventures. Your unconventional ideas fascinate me.

I don't know about them, but I first learned to catch and clean fish and then I learned to hunt rabbits and squirrels, then I learned how to pluck and clean foul (starting with grouse and leading up to pheasants and geese and then turkey) And then I learned to gut and skin, clean and butcher deer, and then I learn to cook all kinds of foods, including processed foods like Chicken, Pork and Beef.

Extreme vegetarians are wrong because you need to milk dairy cows. It's good for them...

So, separating newly born young from the mother (who would stop producing milk after a short period if left unmilked) in order to keep up the production of milk is good for the cows?

I don't know about them, but I first learned to catch and clean fish and then I learned to hunt rabbits and squirrels, then I learned how to pluck and clean foul (starting with grouse and leading up to pheasants and geese and then turkey) And then I learned to gut and skin, clean and butcher deer, and then I learn to cook all kinds of foods, including processed foods like Chicken, Pork and Beef.

And during which part of this adventure did you evolve?

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.

Aren't most beef cattle males? Ain't gettin' no ice cream outta that "udder" .... trust me.

Dont eat bull calves thats weird...We use bulls to have sex with dairy cows so they can have more dairy cows...Extreme vegetarians are wrong because you need to milk dairy cows. It's good for them...

You don't need to keep and feed a herd of 50% bulls to breed with the cows... You only need (at one time, not anymore) one or two bulls to breed the cows, now you only need to buy sperm, or keep one bull around.

You keep the cow calves and sell (or raise yourself) the bull calves to a veal farmer so they don’t drink all the cows milk you sell and make cheese with.

What would have you have done 10,000 years ago? Your denying your humanity!! Feast on the wonderful meat!

there are other meats besides cows.... this is the point lost among many.

try some fish or turkey...you decide

Aren't most beef cattle males? Ain't gettin' no ice cream outta that "udder" .... trust me.

Nah, beef cattle are both cows and neutered bulls.

there are other meats besides cows.... this is the point lost among many.

try some fish or turkey...you decide

How is killing a fish or turkey better than killing a cow?

And why has nobody put up the link to The Meatrix yet?

Oh ... fine ... I'll do it ...

http://www.themeatrix.com/

What would have you have done 10,000 years ago?

All things being equal, I'd have been on the gatherer side of the equation.

Dont eat bull calves thats weird...We use bulls to have sex with dairy cows so they can have more dairy cows...Extreme vegetarians are wrong because you need to milk dairy cows. It's good for them...
Actually today (really for the last 40 years) almost all dairy cows are artificially inseminated. The farmer looks through a big catalog and picks out the perfect bull for each of the cows. Then the semen is sent frozen in little straws. He reaches in as far as his shoulder and puts the semen where is it needs to be.

By doing this, top bulls are able to produce thousands of offspring rather than the 25 per year he could do naturally. I would tell you how they harvest the semen but half the men on this forum wouldn't sleep tonight. Hint: Think electicity!

Also, invitro fertilization and suragate motherhood was developed for animal reproduction. A cow can naturally produce only one calf per year for about 15-20 years (usually less than 10 years before McD's calls). With invitro they flush the eggs from the top cows and implant them in lesser cows. That way the lesser cows can produce hundreds of offspring from the top cows each year.

It is the purpose of cattle to both fit well and taste good.

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.

I don't care if it's moral or not. I like beef and I need meat to survive. Even the backwards christians don't think it's immoral to eat meat.

there are other meats besides cows.... this is the point lost among many.

try some fish or turkey...you decide

There's evidence that some of the first domesticated animals in Mesopotamia and elsewhere in the world were cattle. Cattle wouldn't even exist as they are today if it wasn't for us creating breeding stock.

Although fish and turkey is great too, don’t get me wrong.

Cattle wouldn't even exist as they are today if it wasn't for us creating breeding stock.

True, but your point is?

And during which part of this adventure did you evolve?

When you weren't paying attention :p

We don't slaughter nearly enough cows. Mmkay?

True, but your point is?
They owe their very existence to humanity. The least they can do in return is be flame broiled and covered with barbecued onions.

True, but your point is?

It's the same to farm fish, turkey or cattle, civilization has never existed outside of having cattle, pigs, birds of some kind or another and fish as our meat staples. It's as natural to eat cattle and other creatures of the bovine species (including buffalo) as it is to eat any other animal.

And why has nobody put up the link to The Meatrix yet?

Oh ... fine ... I'll do it ...

http://www.themeatrix.com/

That's why I kill everything I eat.

They owe their very existence to humanity.

Only in the specific form that they now have.

The question askes whether it is moral to slaughter cows for meat. What exactly does the original poster define as moral? How do you distinguish between moral and immoral?

That's why I kill everything I eat.

Really? If so, I am greatly impressed, sir

Really? If so, I am greatly impressed, sir

Eh. Not really. Hunting season's not long enough! Unless you'd be impressed by my daring poaching exploits... (of which I have none).

I'm surprised no one has posted this yet.

"If God did not intend for us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat?"

-John Cleese

Anyway, I grew up on a family dairy farm. Absolutely impossible to survive without a large amount of cattle back in the '80s and '90s and I'm sure its worse now.

Cows are for milking, not eating!!!
I thought that was bulls not cows.

I do not support the innocent slaughtering of millions of vegetables each year!

Eat beef!

Vegitarian is a Native American word for "Lousy Hunter".

Only in the specific form that they now have.
If it weren't for domesticity, the "wild cow" would have been driven to extinction (like the Dodo), or would be bordering on it (like the Whale).
Further, without people taking care of them, cows would just die. They're too stupid too be of any use to themselves out in the wild because the smart wons were never allowed to reproduce.
So, yes, they owe their complete existence to farming, and, goddamn, they will pay handsomely for it.

Well, I'm a vegetarian not because of anything ethical really, but mainly because I can't stand the taste of meat - well, the large appendage variety which man provides is a seperate debate altogether though :)

ROFL
You veggie heads crack me up.
Not eat the cow.. LOL
Don't eat it! More for me!

If it weren't for domesticity, the "wild cow" would have been driven to extinction (like the Dodo), or would be bordering on it (like the Whale).

Or living fine like deer?


...to say nothing of their position in Hindu culture.

Here's the deal. There is only so much grass out there. The farmers try to balance the number of cows with the grass.

About 10-20% of the heifers (female calves) are saved back each year to replace the 10-20% of cows that will be going to McD's. (If you ever saw the cows McD's buys you would never eat there) The rest of the females are sold for meat.

Nearly all of the bulls are castrated (then called steers). Beef bulls are raised on special farms that concentrate on breeding the best. A bull can handle about 25 cows per year and will be used about 5 years. Then he becomes lunch meat. (another thing you wouldn't eat if you saw what went into it.)

By the way, the castrated parts of the bulls is also great eating.

I do not support the innocent slaughtering of millions of vegetables each year!

Eat beef!
And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.
And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.
One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!"
Can I get an amen?
Can I get a hallelujah?
Thank you Jesus.

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.Mmmmmm.... yummmmm... gotta love hamburgers. :D

Or living fine like deer?


...to say nothing of their position in Hindu culture.

Whose to say how they would live?

All that matters is they taste great, most of the time.

Or living fine like deer?
1. Deer are a North American phenomenon, which means that they had more land and fewer hunters strolling around. Eventually Europeans did show up, but shortly after we mobilized enough to eradicate the deer, we decided that their should be "seasons" and "sanctuaries" that reduced the ability of hunters.
2. I doubt that an early cow had the agility and speed that allows deer to hack it.
3. Deer are cute, Cute keeps you alive in this world. Cows aren't cute, they look like shit and will never be mistaken for pets.
4. I have no idea what I was going to put for four
5. The niche that is filled by deer is one of the few niches open for a species to survive in the modern world. If cows were filling the role of deer (getting protected by the government, causing car crashes, stealing from gardens, hiding in shrinking woodlands) then the deer wouldn't have a niche to fill, which would screw them over. It is a matter of evolution, deer evolved around humanity, where cows were evolved with humanity.

I love meat.

Well, I'm a vegetarian not because of anything ethical really, but mainly because I can't stand the taste of meat - well, the large appendage variety which man provides is a seperate debate altogether though :)

There's no debate there. It's vegitarian. It's called "sucking the root" for a reason. ;)

1. Deer are a North American phenomenon, which means that they had more land and fewer hunters strolling around. Eventually Europeans did show up, but shortly after we mobilized enough to eradicate the deer, we decided that their should be "seasons" and "sanctuaries" that reduced the ability of hunters.
2. I doubt that an early cow had the agility and speed that allows deer to hack it.
3. Deer are cute, Cute keeps you alive in this world. Cows aren't cute, they look like shit and will never be mistaken for pets.
4. I have no idea what I was going to put for four
5. The niche that is filled by deer is one of the few niches open for a species to survive in the modern world. If cows were filling the role of deer (getting protected by the government, causing car crashes, stealing from gardens, hiding in shrinking woodlands) then the deer wouldn't have a niche to fill, which would screw them over. It is a matter of evolution, deer evolved around humanity, where cows were evolved with humanity.

Deer are also sneaky as hell. Too often have I seen a deer and then seen the flash of white (their tail going up) and then no deer. And thus, no venison steaks. :(

I did not fight my way to the top of the food chain so I could eat grass.

hehe...i agree,now if all the veggies would give me their meat..i would be very happy.

plus,i eat a cow everynight ,probably,and i only get milk ocasionally...

1. Deer are a North American phenomenon, which means that they had more land and fewer hunters strolling around. Eventually Europeans did show up, but shortly after we mobilized enough to eradicate the deer, we decided that their should be "seasons" and "sanctuaries" that reduced the ability of hunters.

Asian, South American and European deer are all just lies spread by the lizard people then?

Cows haven't evolved (well, obviously they did, but I mean within historical times) - they have been bred: they remain the same species as when they were first domesticated.

1. Deer are a North American phenomenon, which means that they had more land and fewer hunters strolling around. Eventually Europeans did show up, but shortly after we mobilized enough to eradicate the deer, we decided that their should be "seasons" and "sanctuaries" that reduced the ability of hunters.
2. I doubt that an early cow had the agility and speed that allows deer to hack it.
3. Deer are cute, Cute keeps you alive in this world. Cows aren't cute, they look like shit and will never be mistaken for pets.
4. I have no idea what I was going to put for four
5. The niche that is filled by deer is one of the few niches open for a species to survive in the modern world. If cows were filling the role of deer (getting protected by the government, causing car crashes, stealing from gardens, hiding in shrinking woodlands) then the deer wouldn't have a niche to fill, which would screw them over. It is a matter of evolution, deer evolved around humanity, where cows were evolved with humanity.

We should bulldoze the ranches, slaughter the cows, and let the bison roam free. And if you want a hamburger (not to mention enough meat to feed a family of four for a couple months) you have to go down to a sporting goods store and buy a box of ammo and kill yourself a bison! What you don't take you can sell to tanners, knife-makers, &c. And the slaghtered beef? That should be dryed, preserved, and air-dropped over Africa.

Its too bad the buffalo are pretty much extinct. Hunting them would finish them off.

Its too bad the buffalo are pretty much extinct. Hunting them would finish them off.

Not really. Like salmon, they're farmed now.

If it weren't for domesticity, the "wild cow" would have been driven to extinction (like the Dodo), or would be bordering on it (like the Whale).

It was.. the wild cow, that is.. driven to extinction.. the last one was spotted in the forests of Lithuania in the fourteenth century, I believe.. I'm referring to the European Aurochs (the one you see in those ancient cave paintings) which was the original cow... they looked kinda like a modern longhorn, except much more massive and violent.. supposedly, they would attack anything that moved..

But fear not! Some crazy SOB in Texas someplace is reportedly attempting to backwards-engineer an Aurochs from modern cows, by ressurecting the Aurochs's features one generation at a time... :eek:

It was.. the wild cow, that is.. driven to extinction.. the last one was spotted in the forests of Lithuania in the fourteenth century, I believe.. I'm referring to the European Aurochs (the one you see in those ancient cave paintings) which was the original cow... they looked kinda like a modern longhorn, except much more massive and violent.. supposedly, they would attack anything that moved..

But fear not! Some crazy SOB in Texas someplace is reportedly attempting to backwards-engineer an Aurochs from modern cows, by ressurecting the Aurochs's features one generation at a time... :eek:

What I say whenever I find out about a new animal: Are they good eatin'?

Not really. Like salmon, they're farmed now.

If by farmed, you mean land is purchased on which they graze and for a fee a person can go and catch one, yes.

Is it immoral for a bear to eat fish?

What I say whenever I find out about a new animal: Are they good eatin'?

They went extinct in 1627 according to Wikipedia.. (not the 14th century, like I guessed in the post above).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs

But I bet they were. Of course, they were pretty dangerous to hunt..

I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat meat, but I have no problem with those who choose to do so.

There's no debate there. It's vegitarian. It's called "sucking the root" for a reason. ;)

I guess, having a second look, I don't rump roast - I steam carrots :)

They went extinct in 1627 according to Wikipedia.. (not the 14th century, like I guessed in the post above).


Impossible. There were no extinctions until republicans and big oil companies. Prior to that the world was a garden of eden.

Wikipedia must be wrong.

They went extinct in 1627 according to Wikipedia.. (not the 14th century, like I guessed in the post above).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs

But I bet they were. Of course, they were pretty dangerous to hunt..

A bison could so pwn one of those! ;)

If by farmed, you mean land is purchased on which they graze and for a fee a person can go and catch one, yes.

Acutally, there are Buffalo ranches in Oregon, and I assume several other states.

EDIT:

Found a list of Buffalo ranches in the north west:

http://www.nwbison.org/full_members.htm

A bison could so pwn one of those! ;)

I dunno... according to Henryk Sienkiewicz, they were pretty badass.. they could mow down a line of infantry if pressed.. of course, they were only hunting them with spears and other polearms, which raises risks.. Bison are quite a bit smaller than the supposed 15-foot length of a good-sized Aurochs.. although the probably look meaner. :p

Acutally, there are Buffalo ranches in Oregon, and I assume several other states.

Turner has bison farms all over Montana. Cheap, lean meat and cut whichever way you want it. And, more importantly, you get to see what the land is like that it was raised on, smell the same air it does, and you're the one who makes sure it's killed as painlessly as possible.

I dunno... according to Henryk Sienkiewicz, they were pretty badass.. they could mow down a line of infantry if pressed.. of course, they were only hunting them with spears and other polearms, which raises risks.. Bison are quite a bit smaller than the supposed 15-foot length of a good-sized Aurochs.. although the probably look meaner. :p

You'll note that Amerindians never actually went straight after bison until they got guns. :p

You'll note that Amerindians never actually went straight after bison until they got guns. :p

Which is why fred bear is the mightiest man in the world.

If we aren't supposed to eat them, then why are they made of meat?

Acutally, there are Buffalo ranches in Oregon, and I assume several other states.

EDIT:

Found a list of Buffalo ranches in the north west:

http://www.nwbison.org/full_members.htm

I lived near one in Dafter, Michigan, so I know they're in the Great Lakes region.

Asian, South American and European deer are all just lies spread by the lizard people then?
OK, so there are deer in more than one place. You still fail to address the other differences between deer and cows. Specifically:
Deer are cute, fast, agile, sneaky, and able to hide in small areas while feeding around humans.
Cows are large, ugly, clumsy, slow and are visible in just about any surrounding while they require large areas of plain grass to feed on so they can continue not starving.
Cows haven't evolved (well, obviously they did, but I mean within historical times) - they have been bred: they remain the same species as when they were first domesticated.
No, domestic cattle are a different species from the aurochs that people first started domesticating. If it weren't for domestication, all cows would have gone out in the 17th century with the aurochs, but they were instead evolved and directed by humans to the point where they were useful enough that they now need not fear extinction.

We should bulldoze the ranches, slaughter the cows, and let the bison roam free. And if you want a hamburger (not to mention enough meat to feed a family of four for a couple months) you have to go down to a sporting goods store and buy a box of ammo and kill yourself a bison! What you don't take you can sell to tanners, knife-makers, &c. And the slaghtered beef? That should be dryed, preserved, and air-dropped over Africa.
What am I supposed to do with the box of ammo? Throw the bullets at the bison and then try and trap its head in the box so it starves?
Humans are only allowed to have developed advances and civilization because of specialization of labor, and that means that not everyone has to go out and hunt for their meat.
Announcing that anyone who wants beef should have to go hunt for bison is like saying that anyone who has cancer had better damn well find cures for it themselves. Fucking, selfish chemo patients, they must think that all that medicine appears magically before them.
And don't get me started on people who live in houses they didn't build, but that isn't half as bad as all you dick heads out there who don't make your own pencils. If you aren't willing to go down into the graphite mines with a pick axe, rush into the woods with a standard axe, chop down a rubber tree, and then assemble the whole business yourself, you have no business attending schools anyway.

What am I supposed to do with the box of ammo? Throw the bullets at the bison and then try and trap its head in the box so it starves?

You're supposed to load it in a gun. Duh.

If by farmed, you mean land is purchased on which they graze and for a fee a person can go and catch one, yes.
Buffalo are farmed in the same way as cows. And sent to slaughter in much the same way. There is a debate in the industry today if buffalo should be domesticated or left wild. They are very hard to handle in the wild form.

Ted Turner of cable television fame is buying huge ranches and building the herd.

Which is why fred bear is the mightiest man in the world.

I love that song. And as a bonus it was written by a fellow Michigander.

sorry if this has been posted before

But in the immortal words of john cleese "If God did not intend for us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat?"

Ted Turner of cable television fame is buying huge ranches and building the herd.

I'm quite aware of this, seeing as I live in a state where he owns land on which he raises bison.

You're supposed to load it in a gun. Duh.
Well you never mentioned a gun, I can't have those! Guns are icky and spontaneously fire all over the time killing people. Like, this one time, a gun wandered into some kids school and opened fire, killing everyone in the building, and then it shot itself.
And then there was the MP-40, remember when those guns wandered around shooting all the Jews? They just flew into synagogues and started blasting with no reason.

sorry if this has been posted before
Yes, three times, in fact, but it's too late for the Devil to cry.

I'm quite aware of this, seeing as I live in a state where he owns land on which he raises bison.
Nebraska Sandhills, Kansas Flinthills, or New Mexico?

Yes, three times, in fact, but it's too late for the Devil to cry.
Sorry had too much to drink :) yum whisky

Nebraska Sandhills, Kansas Flinthills, or New Mexico?

Montana. Turner is the second largest holder of property in Montana, right after the State of Montana itself. You can go hunting bison on his land for something along the lines of $800-1000 a pop. And they give you a guide who takes you out to where the bison are and tells you which one to shoot. Then they take the dead bison, clean it, strip it, and take it down to their meat processing plant. Once there, they ask you how you want it cut and a month or so later you get about a ton of preserved bison meat in the mail.

Well you never mentioned a gun, I can't have those! Guns are icky and spontaneously fire all over the time killing people. Like, this one time, a gun wandered into some kids school and opened fire, killing everyone in the building, and then it shot itself.
And then there was the MP-40, remember when those guns wandered around shooting all the Jews? They just flew into synagogues and started blasting with no reason.

Your counter-anti-Second Amendment logic has no effect on me!

But yes, I know all about it. Like the time my shotgun just up and shot a duck. It was terrible, terrible, I tell ya! Those evil Italians and their sticking gremlins in their guns....

I voted in the poll a bit hastily.. reflexively, you might say, as a big fan of meat.. but kudos to whoever it was who read all the options and voted on the Carl's Jr. commercial.. I hate that commercial, and it's past time someone stood up and called a spade a spade.. a truly awful commercial in every respect.

Montana. Turner is the second largest holder of property in Montana, right after the State of Montana itself. You can go hunting bison on his land for something along the lines of $800-1000 a pop. And they give you a guide who takes you out to where the bison are and tells you which one to shoot. Then they take the dead bison, clean it, strip it, and take it down to their meat processing plant. Once there, they ask you how you want it cut and a month or so later you get about a ton of preserved bison meat in the mail.
Didn't know he was also in Montana. I grew up in Nebraska, he's one of the largest landholders there too. He also is trying to develop a chain of restaurants with buffalo. Amazing what you can do if you have a few billion $$ laying around.

Didn't know he was also in Montana. I grew up in Nebraska, he's one of the largest landholders there too. He also is trying to develop a chain of restaurants with buffalo. Amazing what you can do if you have a few billion $$ laying around.

Give it to the UN! ;)

*Slays a Cow in front of an Indian*

Do you feel it is morally correct to eat meat?

Yes, according to my morality. I cannot knowingly commit an act of cruelty to another sentient being. So I am a veggie. But I do drink milk (organic and I hope they don't torture the poor creatures there) and I avoid eating at typical American restaurents. In fact I avoid eating out at all...since I am a decent cook (I make some really yummy spicy dishes).

That's just me. I try not to judge others......to each his own karma.. :)

But I am a bit amused by some of the arguments put forth in this thread (and the borderline hostility against vegetarians in the US).

Like, why God made them out of meat. Well, humans are made of meat too, so why are we not eating dead humans?

And about man being a natural carnivore like other carnivorous animals etc...well man has consciousness that other animals don't have.

Like, why God made them out of meat. Well, humans are made of meat too, so why are we not eating dead humans?


I think that bit may have been meant tongue-in-cheek, to be fair.. :)

Like, why God made them out of meat. Well, humans are made of meat too, so why are we not eating dead humans?
Because it is perverse.

My Mum was brought up on a dairy farm. Mlilk's good. But meat's good too.

My Mum was brought up on a dairy farm. Mlilk's good. But meat's good too.
Meat=Meat Pie!

Meat=Meat Pie!
Only mince and cheese. Don't like steak pies.

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.Cows don't provide milk indefinitely. They grow old and useless, unless you let them also provide hamburgers. (They're no good for steaks though)
To just let them die and rot would be disrespectfull.

Like, why God made them out of meat. Well, humans are made of meat too, so why are we not eating dead humans?Increased risk of disease. Besides, they're said to taste like pork, and I don't like pork (they once asked one of the last living ex-cannibals).

So, separating newly born young from the mother (who would stop producing milk after a short period if left unmilked) in order to keep up the production of milk is good for the cows?For the species as a whole, certainly. If cows didn't provide milk or meat, we wouldn't need them. And consequently there would hardly be any; they don't make such good pets after all.

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.
When I Play Lord of the Relms, I make it so that my people are feed off of grain and dairy productcs... they don't eat cows nor do they eat meat.


Of course that's a game I play when I'm eating a hamburger or steak. :D

For the species as a whole, certainly. If cows didn't provide milk or meat, we wouldn't need them. And consequently there would hardly be any; they don't make such good pets after all.


Cows make great pets.

When you get sick of them, you can eat them.

No, that's why it's not Kosher to eat an animal and it's offspring or that that was for the offspring if you hadn't killed it to get the milk.

Nutty.

Am I the only one in the world who understands and appreciates the delicious irony of the cheeseburger?
__________________
Is it because they produce the milk to make cheese and they are seperated from cheese and then put back together

Milk and cow. Reunited. It's so touching. *single tear*

Milk the cowss! Once you can't milk them anymore then eat em. If a cow doesn't milk its not doing anyone any good so eat it. You don't need that many male cows for breeding, so just keep em around to breed for a little while then butcher em for some niiiiice steak! :)

They owe their very existence to humanity. The least they can do in return is be flame broiled and covered with barbecued onions.

YAY! :D

Nutty.

Care to elaborate?

Cows are evil.

Now, I'm not just saying that because a cow once kicked me in the nuts.

Cows are malicious, filthy creatures. They may be stupid and slow-witted, but their entire brains are devoted to three things; eating, shitting and screwing with the kids trying to make some summer job money on the farm. :mad:

Milk and cow. Reunited. It's so touching. *single tear*
*Plays "Reunited" by Peaches and Herbs*

Cows are evil.

Now, I'm not just saying that because a cow once kicked me in the nuts.

Cows are malicious, filthy creatures. They may be stupid and slow-witted, but their entire brains are devoted to three things; eating, shitting and screwing with the kids trying to make some summer job money on the farm. :mad:

<---once had a cow eat his pick-up grill

Cows are evil.

Now, I'm not just saying that because a cow once kicked me in the nuts.

Cows are malicious, filthy creatures. They may be stupid and slow-witted, but their entire brains are devoted to three things; eating, shitting and screwing with the kids trying to make some summer job money on the farm. :mad:
:confused: has there been anything that hasn't been, in any shape or velocity, connected with your nuts at all?

Care to elaborate?

Well, while I fully support and endorse a person's right to an individual faith, I can't help but find dieting sins to be amusing. :)

Well, while I fully support and endorse a person's right to an individual faith, I can't help but find dieting sins to be amusing. :)

Then you really don't want to know about the two sets of pots... (One of dairy, and one for meat)

:confused: has there been anything that hasn't been, in any shape or velocity, connected with your nuts at all?

*thinks*

Um... SLedgehammers. Busses. Chuck Norris. Fighter jets.

That's about it.

Then you really don't want to know about the two sets of pots... (One of dairy, and one for meat)

On the contrary, I'll probably find it amusing too. :)

*thinks*

Um... SLedgehammers. Busses. Chuck Norris. Fighter jets.

That's about it..... surprising that Chuck Norris is there... does that mean that Angelina Jolie, Catherine Zeta Jones and others have been...

....


...

on second thought, scratch that question...

If it's all that important to save cows, then we should eat vegetarians instead.

I like my filet mignon medium rare, and my roast beef sliced thin and tender.

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.

WELL, SHADES OF BEIGE.. IF YOU WERE A GUY I'D MARRY YOU.

on a lighter note, yes i'm pure veg.. haven't gone vegan (yet), but my brother's a vegan. anyway i've been veg for 9 years (though i never really ate meat before that, i mostly gave it to my dog). the choice for me's a no-brainer.. although i can respect other's choices. but i don't want a "relationship" with them.. so therefore i have no "relationship," around here!! anyway, i've gone so far as to go to India.. i support the Hare Krishna Cow stuff, Go Seva.. and i believe that vegetarianism is the next step in human evolution. i hope you read this post and feel a bit heartened.. i've been waiting to get in touch with fellow copmpassionate NSers, myself.. though you're the first. i'm very glad you exist in this forum.. now i don't feel so alone. HOPE to see you around, and don't hesitate to contact me via my profile website to my Vegetarianistica homepage, just send a telegram. :D

If it's all that important to save cows, then we should eat vegetarians instead.
yeah, it sounds like a good idea, but they don't taste as good as a nice piece of beef. the only human worth eating is christian baby and i only say that to make people think jews actually eat them

No, domestic cattle are a different species from the aurochs that people first started domesticating.


Nope. (http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic=TSN&search_value=183838)

Vegetarianistica']on a lighter note, yes i'm pure veg.. haven't gone vegan (yet), but my brother's a vegan. anyway i've been veg for 9 years

Ha. Got that beat. Vegan since '89.

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.
actually cow's aren't really for milking either, cow milk is for baby cows not for humans.........damn my vegan-ness is sneaking back up on me

*goes to get a steak before she turns back vegan*

actually cow's aren't really for milking either, cow milk is for baby cows not for humans.........damn my vegan-ness is sneaking back up on me

*goes to get a steak before she turns back vegan*

[insert meat joke here];)

I'll eat meat until the vegs can come up with a reasonable substitution..that doesn't taste and smell like burnt hair.

Nope. (http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic=TSN&search_value=183838)
Aurochs were regarded as a seperate species until recently, anyway, but it appears that ITIS has betrayed me by changing things.
Not that it matters, my point, which you have so artfully avoided addressing, still stands. Cows would all be dead now if it weren't for domesticity, without their ability to be butchered for food, they are worth nothing and would receive no aid.
Get used to it: Cows suck, always have sucked, and will continue to suck.

What about the 'man' cows? I want nothing to do with their 'milk.'

or their man-teats!

hehe

They are different breeds of cows.

Veal, on the other hand, comes from the bull calves born to dairy cows, are you suggesting we should only breed dairy cows and only eat veal (or what do we do with the bull calves on dairy farms if not eat them?)

What do we do about the animal rights groups and extreme vegetarians that think we shouldn't drink milk and eat cheese?
Hell with the lot of them.

They don't know what they're talking about and frankly, once you've eaten vegan cheese, you'll wonder how you ever lived without regular cheddar, especially extra old cheddar.

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.
I love animals; they taste sooo good! I have several steaks in my freezer right now. I can hear them calling me: "Eat me! Eat me!" I can't wait until tonight, when I intend to grill one or two of them, then slowly slide my super-sharp steak knife through the succulent meat, watching the juices slowly run out of the deep incision. That first bite is totally awesome, slightly chewey, but hot and succulent, the juices so plentiful they almost run from my lips. :D

I love animals; they taste sooo good! I have several steaks in my freezer right now. I can hear them calling me: "Eat me! Eat me!" I can't wait until tonight, when I intend to grill one or two of them, then slowly slide my super-sharp steak knife through the succulent meat, watching the juices slowly run out of the deep incision. That first bite is totally awesome, slightly chewey, but hot and succulent, the juices so plentiful they almost run from my lips. :D
Whatever satisfies you...

Though frankly, beef has nothing on a nice cut of cod, lightly breaded and seasoned with a touch of dijion mustard and baked in the oven.

Nothing quite beats a good Black Angus NYstrip with a loaded baked potato and sauteed mushrooms. I guess that answers the question.

For the record, I rarely base my actions on moral grounds but on practical ones.

*Slays a Cow in front of an Indian*

im having computer trouble so i was talking to a call center in india the other day.

while we're waiting for my recovery disks to crap out, we engage in idle chit chat....how its 6am there and 6pm here..what the weather is like, etc.

then she asks me what im making for dinner......

im thinking "COW"

i didnt want to gross out my lifeline to a new puter so i just said "meat and potatoes" and hoped she didnt want to pursue the matter any further.

Not that it matters, my point, which you have so artfully avoided addressing, still stands. Cows would all be dead now if it weren't for domesticity, without their ability to be butchered for food, they are worth nothing and would receive no aid.
Get used to it: Cows suck, always have sucked, and will continue to suck.

Feral cattle seem to be doing very well in Australia, thank you very much.

Hell with the lot of them.

They don't know what they're talking about and frankly, once you've eaten vegan cheese, you'll wonder how you ever lived without regular cheddar, especially extra old cheddar.

Vegan 'cheese' has improved massively over the last 15 or so years. It has gone from being vile to being delicious. There is one fantastic version of Hickory Smoked 'cheese', but the name of the makers currently escapes me.

then she asks me what im making for dinner......

im thinking "COW"

i didnt want to gross out my lifeline to a new puter so i just said "meat and potatoes" and hoped she didnt want to pursue the matter any further.

lol...you maybe right. Indian women tend to be strict veggies than Indian men. But I don't think it will gross her out, because in the cities, beef-eating is fairly common-place. I used to eat beef quite often when I was a meat eater.

For the record, I rarely base my actions on moral grounds but on practical ones.
Practical would be not feeding the cow and use the land to grow crops humans CAN eat.

There'd be 3 times more food from the same patch of land

There is room on this planet for all of God's creatures to live in peace.







After which, of course, there is plenty of room for many of them on my dinner plate - right between the potatoes and the carrots.

Kinda get the best of both worlds that way.....

:D

Do not agree Beef tastes nice yum but not too bloody or still mooing, milk is good too

No way. Humans are natural omnivores. We biologically need essential protiens to literally build our bodies. Ergo: I eat cow, therefore I am.

No way. Humans are natural omnivores. We biologically need essential protiens to literally build our bodies. Ergo: I eat cow, therefore I am.
Yeah cows today are so natural :rolleyes:

http://hometown.aol.com/badlandsbooker/images/booker%20eating%20big%20burger.jpg

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.

Your morals are screwed up. Man cannot live on dairy alone. Cow :sniper:

Your morals are screwed up. Man cannot live on dairy alone. Cow :sniper:
They can't live on cow alone either :rolleyes:

U gotta have meat for the amino acids

I dont feel bad for anything tasty and delicious.

Wait..I take that back....I dont do veal.

Thats just wrong.


But I'll betcha baby seal is some tasty bastards!

U gotta have meat for the amino acids
Not true.

Not true.

What he said.

.... surprising that Chuck Norris is there... does that mean that Angelina Jolie, Catherine Zeta Jones and others have been...

....


...

on second thought, scratch that question...

Sometimes the questions are scarier than the answers. :)

No way. Humans are natural omnivores. We biologically need essential protiens to literally build our bodies. Ergo: I eat cow, therefore I am.

Humans also (apparently) have freedom of choice, and there is nothing which has solely animal origin which is required for proper nutrition. Ergo, I chose not to eat any animal products, and suffer from no dietary deficiencies.

ding dang diddly vegetarians/animals rights groups.

if you havnt noticed, todays world is all about acceptance, people accept that some people are gay, people accept some people beleive in God and others dont believe in God.

so just accept people eat meat. we seem to accept the fact that you live your weird lifestyles not eating meat and wearing clothes made of hemp.

by the way, if your a member of PETA, thats a terrorist organization and the USA does not stand for terrorist. so live it up untill the USA decides to take out all terrorist globally and uses some f-14 to blow your headquaters into non existence :)

Feral cattle seem to be doing very well in Australia, thank you very much.
Yes. In Australia.
I eat beef from the US, which wouldn't have cows were they not domesticated.
And I am tired of arguing over stupid things: cows are large, stupid herbivores. They exist to be eaten, if not be humans, then by other predators. Now, I'll take my lunch with an extra helping of murder, and hold the guilt tripping, please.

ding dang diddly vegetarians/animals rights groups.

if you havnt noticed, todays world is all about acceptance, people accept that some people are gay, people accept some people beleive in God and others dont believe in God.

so just accept people eat meat. we seem to accept the fact that you live your weird lifestyles not eating meat and wearing clothes made of hemp.
I accept. Just as long as you gave it some thought. Why are you pro-animal torture and world hunger?
by the way, if your a member of PETA, thats a terrorist organization and the USA does not stand for terrorist. so live it up untill the USA decides to take out all terrorist globally and uses some f-14 to blow your headquaters into non existence :)
How accepting :rolleyes:

Yes. In Australia.
I eat beef from the US, which wouldn't have cows were they not domesticated.
And I am tired of arguing over stupid things: cows are large, stupid herbivores. They exist to be eaten, if not be humans, then by other predators. Now, I'll take my lunch with an extra helping of murder, and hold the guilt tripping, please.

Hey, at what point did I ever raise the ethical dimension here? I don't believe I did. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think you might be the first one to mention 'guilt'.

I accept. Just as long as you gave it some thought. Why are you pro-animal torture and world hunger?

hey, im hungry now. i see meat in the store, i eat it, im fixing world hunger in my world;)

How accepting :rolleyes:

i would accept peta as an organization, if they would stop killing/hurting humans in the name of saving the life of a mosquito. ok maybe i exagerated

hey, im hungry now. i see meat in the store, i eat it, im fixing world hunger in my world;)
If there was no meat in the store, would you go out and find it?

Hey, at what point did I ever raise the ethical dimension here? I don't believe I did. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think you might be the first one to mention 'guilt'.
The ethical dimension was raised in the OP, I thought you were defending their point against my claim that we own cows.
Or something.
I hate carrying on arguments from the night before, the sleep has completely fogged my memory, and I'm too lazy to reread more than the last couple pages of a thread.
Whatever, it is time for lunch, and all this talk has made me long for a veal parmigiana sub in ways that no vegatarian could ever understand, so g'bye!

If there was no meat in the store, would you go out and find it?

yes, meat is mandatory in my diet

yes, meat is mandatory in my diet
Okay then. you are accepted :p :fluffle:

What would have you have done 10,000 years ago?

eat a diet based almost entirely on plants like everyone else?

Cows are yummy. :)

Cows are yummy. :)
Yummy (http://www.greatdreams.com/eeyore/pix_abuse08.jpg)

WARNING! Pic of animal cruelty


As opposed to:
http://images.veer.com/IMG/PIMG/FAN/FAN1004342_P.JPG

Yummy (http://www.greatdreams.com/eeyore/pix_abuse08.jpg)

WARNING! Pic of animal cruelty


As opposed to:
http://images.veer.com/IMG/PIMG/FAN/FAN1004342_P.JPG

that cow is dead, it doesnt know its upside down;)

that cow is dead, it doesnt know its upside down;)
Is it?

Is it?

what you dont show in the picture is the farmer giving it a last meal of a hobo that trespassed on the farm, see cows will eat you if you dont eat them.

what you dont show in the picture is the farmer giving it a last meal of a hobo that trespassed on the farm, see cows will eat you if you dont eat them.
I thought that was pigs?

They eat anything..... except pineapples

I thought that was pigs?

They eat anything..... except pineapples

Okay okay,
i prefer ham to roast beef anyway

Okay okay,
i prefer ham to roast beef anyway
Whatever turns you on :p

Whatever turns you on :p
who told you what i do at night, are you my stalker?

who told you what i do at night, are you my stalker?
No...... I don't know who he is, but he passes on the info to me. I work for the Ministry of Naughty Boys

Like, why God made them out of meat. Well, humans are made of meat too, so why are we not eating dead humans?

Because it is perverse.

Well eating a corpse of an animal is perverse too (for me).

Deep down, everybody likes to think "I am not doing anything wrong"....it is an essential part to human nature and even human survival....

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.
Cows are food wrapped in shoes. Moo.

Well eating a corpse of an animal is perverse too (for me).

Deep down, everybody likes to think "I am not doing anything wrong"....it is an essential part to human nature and even human survival....
To answer your original question, there are several reasons why we do not eat other humans:

1) In human society, the unlawful killing of another human is against the law. This means that persons hunting humans as game would be out of business relatively quickly. Supply would thus become a problem.

2) If we were to restrict canibalism to only eating those humans who volunteered for the process, we would face a new set of problems:
2a) Very few humans are likely to volunteer for this process. There would, most likely, not be nearly enough human meat to go around. People would still eat animal meat more often than human meat.
2b) Very few humans are likely to volunteer to be killed for food...instead, they would probably volunteer to be used for food after they were already dead. In this case, there is a high likelyhood that whatever killed them would also present a health risk for anybody consuming their flesh. This would deter many potential buyers of the human meat, and would also greatly increase the processing costs necessary to address the health risks. Thus, it would not be economically viable for human meat to be produced as opposed to animal meats.
2c) Eating the flesh of one's own species is, even in the best of circumstances, generally more risky than eating another species. This is because one's own species is more likely to carry diseases that can infect YOU. This is why few mammalian species are ever seen to eat their own kind.

I am not vegetarian because I like animals, but because I hate plants!

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.

You're only going half-hearted. Isn't it morally wrong to milk cows too? I mean, it isn't their job to provide humans with milk. We are abusing them to get food for us. Shouldn't that be your arguement?


I do not think eating cows or milking them is wrong. My opinion

Im pretty sure some amino proteins essential to human diet are only located in meat

Cows are food wrapped in shoes. Moo.

Shoes and jackets.

People can do as they please. As long as they don't interfere with me cramming burgers down my gullet, they can go and not eat meat if they want. More for the rest of us.

I often eat beef. I also eat chicken,pork, turkey, ostrich-all kinds of fish.

I'm not a glutton and I'm not wasteful.

I havent eaten veal in 15 yrs or more.

I very rarely eat any type of ground meat.

Ha. Got that beat. Vegan since '89.

hmmm.. when i was.. 12. that's a long damn time. congratulations!! :p

To answer your original question, there are several reasons why we do not eat other humans:,<snpped for brevity>

I meant people who are already dead.

As a parallel to some meat eaters thinking..."I did not kill the animal..I am only eating something that is already dead..so I suppose its OK."

Also, if we are not eating dead humans for risk of disease, then what about the risks of eating animals (especially from those animal factories)?

A wholesome veggie diet is a lot healthier than a meat diet.

A wholesome veggie diet is a lot healthier than a meat diet.

But steak just tastes too damn good to not eat it.

What's a cow? :eek:

Practical would be not feeding the cow and use the land to grow crops humans CAN eat.

There'd be 3 times more food from the same patch of land
No, there wouldn't. Cows are fed on land that is unsuitable for growing vegetables.

A wholesome veggie diet is a lot healthier than a meat diet.

Rubbish. Look at the eskimos.

Ha. Got that beat. Vegan since '89.

That's the year I was born. Impressive.

As for me, I've been a vegetarian for a year and a half. Not quite as accomplished, but I'm working on it. If it weren't for my mother's total lack of support in the paying-for-groceries department, I'd probably be a vegan. Hopefully when I'm on my own.

To respond to the original statement "Cows are for milking", while I (and surely many animals) appreciate the sentiment, milking cows is really not the best thing for them either. Dairy cows are kept in equally harsh living conditions as meat cows, the only difference being the misery of the meat cow is ended much sooner than that of the dairy cow.

I love meat. That said, I've chosen a vegetarian diet and have stuck with it so far. I was actually surprised at how easy it is to simply choose not to eat meat. Paul McCartney said it right, “If anyone wants to save the planet, all they have to do is just stop eating meat. That’s the single most important thing you could do. It’s staggering when you think about it. Vegetarianism takes care of so many things in one shot: ecology, famine, cruelty.”

I normally try to avoid preaching. To all you avid meat lovers: I accept your choice of diet, but as they say, don't knock it till you've tried it. If you really want to talk about how vegetarianism is dumb or pointless or whatever, you should probably try it first. I really do feel healthier, and that's what's most important to me.

What's a cow? :eek:
Something that Bart Simpson doesn't want you to have. :D

No, there wouldn't. Cows are fed on land that is unsuitable for growing vegetables.

False. Where'd you hear that?

But steak just tastes too damn good to not eat it.

I completely understand it. Hey I was a meat eater too a year back and I pretty much ate anything that moves.

But please do not justify it with reasons like

"I am not the one who is killing it, I am just eating it"

"If I did not eat it, somebody else would"

"Animals don't feel pain and even if they feel pain, I don't care"

"God made animals for humans to eat" [Thou shall not kill - applies to animals too]

"If I don't eat meat, then there would be higher demand for grains and there would be more hunger..so I am just doing my role as a top predator" [wrong, calorie for calorie, more resources go into making animal food than plant food]

"well animals eat other animals and we are also animals :confused: " [believe me, I heard that line and it stumped me]

These are just some of the lines I usually hear when I go out with Americans and refuse to eat meat and inevitably there is a discussion on this subject.

I sometimes think that America hates us vegetarians. ;) Time to find out the vast conspiracy behind this. :p

False. Where'd you hear that?
Gee, maybe from every reputable source on the subject in existence?

Gee, maybe from every reputable source on the subject in existence?

That was specific. Thanks, I feel informed now.

Rubbish. Look at the eskimos.

i think it's senseless to argue what's good or bad about vegetarianism or meat-eating. nobody ever changes their opinions.

in answer to Lacadaemon,... uhh.. i'm looking at them. what do you want me to be seeing there? *sigh*

I sometimes think that America hates us vegetarians. ;) Time to find out the vast conspiracy behind this. :p

I'm American, you'd be surprised how many of us are vegetarians ;)

Well, since no one has mentioned it yet...

http://www.3dweb.no/galleri/stuestolbm/bilder/anim1.swf

Some quotes

"Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature. If the whole world adopts vegetarianism, it can change the destiny of humankind."
Albert Einstein

"If man wants freedom why keep birds
and animals in cages? Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the death of others. We are burial places! I have since an early age abjured the use of meat."
Leonardo-da-Vinci

"I do feel that spiritual progress does demand at some stage that we should cease to kill our fellow creatures for the satisfaction of our bodily wants."
Gandhi

"Flesh eating is unprovoked murder."
Benjamin Franklin

"The eating of meat extinguishes the seed of great compassion"
Mahaparinirvana (Mahayana Version)

"Thou shalt not kill."
Exodus 20:13

It is only by softening and disguising dead flesh by culinary preparation that it is rendered susceptible of mastication or digestion, and that the sight of its bloody juices and raw horror does not excite intolerable loathing and disgust.
Percy Bysshe Shelley, Queen Mab Notes.

We manage to swallow flesh only because we do not think of the cruel and sinful thing that we do. Cruelty... is a fundamental sin, and admits of no arguments or nice distinctions. If only we do not allow our heart to grow callous, it protests against cruelty, is always clearly heard; and yet we go on perpetrating cruelties easily, merrily, all of us – in fact, anyone who does not join in is dubbed a crank.
Rabindranath Tagore, Nobel Prize 1913

"Thou shalt not kill" does not apply to murder of one's own kind only, but to all living beings; and this Commandment was inscribed in the human breast long before it was proclaimed from Sinai.
Leo Tolstoy

"We pray on Sundays that we may have light/To guide our footsteps on the path we tread;/We are sick of war, we don't want to fight,/And yet we gorge ourselves upon the dead."
George Bernard Shaw

I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.
Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

"One who, while seeking happiness, oppresses with violence other living beings who also desire happinesss, will not find happiness hereafter."
Lord Buddha, Dhammapada, 131

"I am full of the burnt offering of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of goats...Bring no more vain offerings... When you spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes though you make many prayers, and I will not hear you. For your hands are full of blood..."
Isaiah 1:11-15

If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.
Paul McCartney

Nothing more strongly arouses our disgust than cannibalism, yet we make the same impression on Buddhists and vegetarians, for we feed on babies, though not our own.
Robert Louis Stevenson

Fire. Meat. Good.

I completely understand it. Hey I was a meat eater too a year back and I pretty much ate anything that moves.

But please do not justify it with reasons like

"I am not the one who is killing it, I am just eating it"

"If I did not eat it, somebody else would"

"Animals don't feel pain and even if they feel pain, I don't care"

"God made animals for humans to eat" [Thou shall not kill - applies to animals too]

"If I don't eat meat, then there would be higher demand for grains and there would be more hunger..so I am just doing my role as a top predator" [wrong, calorie for calorie, more resources go into making animal food than plant food]

"well animals eat other animals and we are also animals :confused: " [believe me, I heard that line and it stumped me]

These are just some of the lines I usually hear when I go out with Americans and refuse to eat meat and inevitably there is a discussion on this subject.

I sometimes think that America hates us vegetarians. ;) Time to find out the vast conspiracy behind this. :p

I just eat meat becuase it tastes good. But also any one of those justifications except maybe the religious ones aren't necessarily wrong. But then again I'm not going to argue over what you want to eat and what you don't because its not my place to tell you what to eat(but try the strip steak its delicious).

I'm American, you'd be surprised how many of us are vegetarians ;)

I am an east Indian, currently in US.

I used to get the "what's wrong with you" look in Texas and I still get that when I visited there a month back.

Now I am in Cali and to be fair, it is quite good here...I do have much choices to eat out if I want to.

Vegetarianistica']
in answer to Lacadaemon,... uhh.. i'm looking at them. what do you want me to be seeing there? *sigh*

Eskimos that stick to their traditional all meat diet are some of the healthiest people in the world.

I don't care whether people eat meat or not, but this constant refrain that being a vegetarian is more health is bunk. The important thing is a diet balanced with the proper nutrition and appropriate calorific intake, not where it comes from.

Anyway it's not the meat that make americans fat. It's laziness and snacky-cakes. Both of which can be enjoyed in a strict lacto-vegetarian lifestyle.

I am an east Indian, currently in US.

Calcutta? errr.. ? about as far east i went was JagannathaPuri / Bhubaneshwar. anyway, i'd love to go back. but i did find that there was not too much vegetarian food available there. down in Tamil Nadu it was all pure veg though. just in Orissa i literally almost starved to death because there was only meat.

I am an east Indian, currently in US.

I used to get the "what's wrong with you" look in Texas and I still get that when I visited there a month back.

Now I am in Cali and to be fair, it is quite good here...I do have much choices to eat out if I want to.

Well, not to insult anyone, but vegetarianism tends to be concentrated in the more liberal coastal states. My dad is from Louisiana and his family is still there, but we live in New York now. Whenever I go down to visit I have to put up with weird looks and mocking comments as I slip my veggie burger on the grill. I'm glad I live in New York because as you said, there are more choices eating out.

I don't care whether people eat meat or not, but this constant refrain that being a vegetarian is more health is bunk.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/502S
The contribution of vegetarian diets to health and disease: a paradigm shift?1Joan Sabaté
1 From the Department of Nutrition, School of Public Health, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA.
2 Presented at the Fourth International Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition, held in Loma Linda, CA, April 8–11, 2002. Published proceedings edited by Joan Sabaté and Sujatha Rajaram, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, CA.

HEALTH BENEFITS OF VEGETARIAN DIETS
During the past 20 y, scores of nutritional epidemiologic studies have documented important and quantifiable benefits of vegetarian and other plant-based diets, namely a reduction of risk for many chronic degenerative diseases and total mortality (14, 15). Vegetarians living in affluent countries enjoy remarkably good health, exemplified by low rates of obesity (16–18), coronary diseases (19–21), diabetes (22), and many cancers (21, 23, 24), and increased longevity (25–27). Those benefits are possibly due to the absence of meat in the diet as well as to a greater amount and variety of plant foods (28). While meat intake has been related to increased risk for a variety of chronic diseases such as ischemic heart disease (19) and some cancers (25, 29), abundant consumption of essential food components of the vegetarian diet such as fruit and vegetables (30–32), legumes and unrefined cereals (33–36), and nuts (33, 37, 38) has consistently been associated with a lower risk for many chronic degenerative diseases, and in some cases increased longevity. In the Adventist Health Study (39), a large prospective cohort study on diet and health of vegetarians and nonvegetarians, many more associations have been observed between plant foods and chronic diseases than with animal foods such as meat and dairy products (Table 2) (33, 40–47). All the protective effects were observed for foods of plant origin, while all the hazardous effects were correlated with meat intake (25). In conclusion, the positive effects of foods of plant origin on chronic disease prevention are possibly more definite than the detrimental effects of meats (28

Vegetarianistica']Calcutta? errr.. ? about as far east i went was JagannathaPuri / Bhubaneshwar. anyway, i'd love to go back. but i did find that there was not too much vegetarian food available there. down in Tamil Nadu it was all pure veg though. just in Orissa i literally almost starved to death because there was only meat.

Nah..Chennai..the land of wonderful idlis and chutneys :D

Nah..Chennai..the land of wonderful idlis and chutneys :D

heyyyy!! CHENNAI !! was in Chennai 2 weeks in Jan. 2004, stayed in KasthuribaiNagar, Adyar. :D hung out in Pondy Bazaar, went all over the place. i can't WAIT to get back there. India's my one true love.

So long as people keep in mind the following facts:

The Mongolians, on a diet consisting entirely of dairy products and red meats took the over a quarter of the world away from vegetarians.

All of those cows, chickens, pigs, etc that are no longer consumed as food need to have food, a place to live, etc. The people who currently provide those services will be out of business when the market dries up. They will not provide this for free. They can't! These are domesticated animals that are not wired anymore to live as wild animals. They will starve, become diseased, be hit by cars, and become pests. We cannot even control the number of "puppies" and "kitties" that fall into this catagory.. now we are going to create a better world by setting the cows free? I don't think so! Nature is what it is.. Lions kill zebras that's the way of it.. get over it!

:sniper: :mp5:

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.
the thing is folks most "cows" that are slaughtered for meat are in fact males (bullocks) that havant got the breading to bread. Its the only purpose they serve and the only reason they are farmed. it is true that only a farmer without the sence he was born with would slaughter a diary cow for meat as they are worth far more alive than dead. :headbang:

So long as people keep in mind the following facts:

The Mongolians, on a diet consisting entirely of dairy products and red meats took the over a quarter of the world away from vegetarians.

err..and where are mongolians now?

IIRC, Mongolia is the country with lowest population density in the whole world.

Vegetarianistica']heyyyy!! CHENNAI !! was in Chennai 2 weeks in Jan. 2004, stayed in KasthuribaiNagar, Adyar. :D hung out in Pondy Bazaar, went all over the place. i can't WAIT to get back there. India's my one true love.

I have not been to Chennai in three years. I miss the food and the beaches and the 100 degrees heat.

All this talk is making me very nostalgic..I am going to ask my manager for a month off..but I just screwed up in the project and I dare not ask her now...*sniffs*..

Adyar is a cool place. I went to college at Anna University which is close to Adyar (just a couple of bus stops away..walkable actually).

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.
There are meat cows and dairy cows. Completely different...species? subspecies?

err..and where are mongolians now?

IIRC, Mongolia is the country with lowest population density in the whole world.

Doing a lot better than the Chinese, the Iraqis, the Russians, and the Poles.

Doing a lot better than the Chinese, the Iraqis, the Russians, and the Poles.

No, they are under a demoraphic siege from the Chinese.

Look up the Chinese map. They have a province called outer Mongolia. The name should give you clues. :)

No, they are under a demoraphic siege from the Chinese.

Look up the Chinese map. They have a province called outer Mongolia. The name should give you clues. :)

That's been that way for a while, now.

The Mongolians are still better off than the Chinese.

That's been that way for a while, now.

The Mongolians are still better off than the Chinese.

This is getting increasingly OT. So last post from me on the subject.

The premise that Mongolians were good conquerors because they ate meat is false.

It was more due to their light cavalry and their skill at shooting by standing on the stirrups. Their typical tactic would be to feign a charge, shoot a volley of arrows, and when the heavy cavalry of the opponent gives a charge, the Mongolian light cavalry would retreat. While retreating they would actually turn back and shoot while still moving away from the pursuers. And when the heavy cavalry is tired and lost enough numbers, the Mongolian cavalry would turn back and charge again.

None of this is related to meat eating. A typical Mongolian is rather short statured and is not known for brute physical strength.

You can have the last word.

There are meat cows and dairy cows. Completely different...species? subspecies?

Actually, there is no difference in species at all. Generally the male is raised for meat and the female for dairy. Of course, there are different breeds of cow that might have different qualities that make them better choices, like a meat farmer would raise cattle that bulk up more or faster than another species. Then again, the use of hormones in the meat and poultry industries makes this kind of breeding almost totally unnecessary. But that's another issue.

The ethical dimension was raised in the OP, I thought you were defending their point against my claim that we own cows.
Or something.

Yes, and then not quite, in that order. Sorry about that post, it was one I made just before I headed out to work, and I'd have probably edited it somewhat if I had been still at the computer five minutes after I made it...

None of you know cows like I know cows. Cows are horrid, evil, malicious creatures. They hate you. Nobody can work with and around cows for more than a week and NOT want them dead.

Cows must die. The only thing that keeps them from getting wiped out is the fact that they taste good enough to make more. But they still have to die. *nod*

Im pretty sure some amino proteins essential to human diet are only located in meat

Nope.

Eskimos that stick to their traditional all meat diet are some of the healthiest people in the world.

Average life expectancy for an Inuit male is about 60 though, which lags far behind the Canadian male national average (77). As to whether their diet is a factor in this or not, I do not know, but claiming that they are 'some of the healthiest people in the world' seems to need closer examination here (even if we add a couple of years on to their life expectancy to smooth out the blip caused by their relatively high infant mortality rate).

Nope, I love me some meat.

I was a vegetarian as a kid but with all of the sports I do I need protein and those powder shakes that taste like dust don't do it for me. I believe people should have the option of becoming a Vegetarian but I also believe people should have the choice to eat meat.

As far as killing the poor cow, it doesn't really matter to me if I kill a cow for dinner or a head of lettuce, I'm still killing something. Although, I refuse to eat veal because I don't agree with the way the calfs are killed.


*goes to get a hamburger*

I still think Douglas Adams had the right idea: if it's cruel to kill and eat an animal that doesn't want to be eaten, then we should create an animal that actually does want to be eaten and can say so clearly and distinctly.

Granted, you could live to a hundred eating nothing but twigs and berries, but who would want to?

None of you know cows like I know cows. Cows are horrid, evil, malicious creatures. They hate you. Nobody can work with and around cows for more than a week and NOT want them dead.

Cows must die. The only thing that keeps them from getting wiped out is the fact that they taste good enough to make more. But they still have to die. *nod*
What kind of cows have you been around? Mine are totally tame. I can walk up and pet any of them. Several will eat out of my hand.

As far as what gets eaten. Eventually nearly all. There are different breeds of cattle just like different breeds of dogs. As with dogs, different breeds have different uses. Unlike dogs, in the end bovines get eaten.

Most good steak comes from beef breeds. These breeds are slaughtered about 18 month old. Nearly all the bulls (which are castrated and called steers) and most of the heifers (young females) go down this road. Only enough females are saved back to replace old cows.

Dairy breeds were developed to produce milk. Shortly after the calf is born, it is taken away and raised for a short time before it becomes veal. Not all dairy calves go down this road. Some are raised as beef cattle and slaughtered later. Dairy heifers (females) are generally given one chance to have a calf. This is so the milking potential can be evaluated. Every year the herd of cows is evaluated and the bottom goes to slaughter. By the way, since this thread has to do with milk. A dairy farmer has to milk at least twice (today usually three) times per day, every day, no vacations, no sick leave, no exceptions. If your wife or child dies, you have to milk the cows the day of the funeral. Think about that the next time you complain about the cost of milk. Dairy cows are very temprimental and don't take to strangers milking them and they needed to be milked at the exact time every day. Many dairys are large enough today to have several hired workers to relieve a little of the burden but there are still some family operations.

In the end, older or otherwise poorly evaluated cattle go to lesser meats. Depending on why they were removed from the herd. At slaughter their meat is evaluated and sent to hamberger, lunch meat, or animal feed. Everything is used in some way. I would bet that there is a beef product in every house. Things like paint, steel, glue, and make-up contain cattle products. There is a market for fetal blood should the cow be pregnant. There is even a market in Asia for gall stones.

You might be wondering about the sick. These go to slaughter houses where it is decided how much can be saved. For instance, if a cow has cancer in her eye (very common) the head is lost but the rest goes to McD's.

What about those that die in the pasture? Well.....There is a business called a rendering plant that comes and picks them up. They end up in dog food and in the chemicals and manufactured products.

Sorry might be abit of topic but...

I dont drink cows milk and i dont think a lot of people would if they knew what was in it.

In each litre of Cows milk there is on average 200 million puss cells, i dont know about you but that is something i dont want in my body. Also the only reason Caows Milk is pulable is because it's kept cold, drink it warm and you'll know what i mean! And finally, in countries where Cows milk isn't generally drunk the Cancer rate is significantly lower so the 2 maybe linked.

So to sum up, Soya milk is the way to go, it maybe rank but it's higher in protein! :D

Sorry might be abit of topic but...

I dont drink cows milk and i dont think a lot of people would if they knew what was in it.

In each litre of Cows milk there is on average 200 million puss cells, i dont know about you but that is something i dont want in my body. Also the only reason Caows Milk is pulable is because it's kept cold, drink it warm and you'll know what i mean! And finally, in countries where Cows milk isn't generally drunk the Cancer rate is significantly lower so the 2 maybe linked.

So to sum up, Soya milk is the way to go, it maybe rank but it's higher in protein! :D

1. Please cite your source about the puss cells.

2. Soya milk is not "the way to go." Drinking it will cause me to swell up and, well, die.

here's an actual question that i have wondered about for a long time
"what actualy makes eating meat wrong?" humans are omnivores we eat both meat and veggies and if eating meat is wrong then lets go kill all predators and scavangers! because you know those rabbits can look after themselves; eating their whole food supply at the enviroments carrying capacity, raping the land and leaving nothing for their offspring *sounds like humans the more i think about it*

here's an actual question that i have wondered about for a long time
"what actualy makes eating meat wrong?" humans are omnivores we eat both meat and veggies and if eating meat is wrong then lets go kill all predators and scavangers! because you know those rabbits can look after themselves; eating their whole food supply at the enviroments carrying capacity, raping the land and leaving nothing for their offspring *sounds like humans the more i think about it*

Humans = bunnies? Are you a furry?

Humans = bunnies? Are you a furry?

a furry? i have no idea what you mean by that. but if you can not pay attion enough or can not understand what i had said it is not my fault, and you need to studdy population, growths and the impacts of each on the earth.

and as it has been a while since no one has posted anything since newtsburg there i can asume there is nothing wrong with eating meat and it is a life choice, not morals nor ethics.

also majority of the problems that people have with the quality of meat and illnesses related, it is because of the enviroment they were raised, and we were raised. *antibacterial mumbo jumbo, that sterial is healthy bullshit- should only be in hospitals* but those are other issues.

humans are omnivores we eat both meat and veggies and if eating meat is wrong then lets go kill all predators and scavangers!


The fact that humans appear to have conscious free will, whereas other animals don't, has escaped your notice?

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.

I don't know about you, but I've never eaten a female cow.

a furry? i have no idea what you mean by that. but if you can not pay attion enough or can not understand what i had said it is not my fault, and you need to studdy population, growths and the impacts of each on the earth.

and as it has been a while since no one has posted anything since newtsburg there i can asume there is nothing wrong with eating meat and it is a life choice, not morals nor ethics.

also majority of the problems that people have with the quality of meat and illnesses related, it is because of the enviroment they were raised, and we were raised. *antibacterial mumbo jumbo, that sterial is healthy bullshit- should only be in hospitals* but those are other issues.

And you are how old?

I don't know about you, but I've never eaten a female cow.


Just wondering, but how can you tell?

Just wondering, but how can you tell?

Cows used for beef are generally male, which is the best guideline to go buy.
A DNA test would work as well.

If you can eat the animal do it. Heck, I think we should be able to eat any animal we want. (Outside of humans)

Cows used for beef are generally male, which is the best guideline to go buy.
A DNA test would work as well.

Well I don't know about the first point, but as for the second, are you saying that you genetically test all of your beef before you eat it? :confused:

Well I don't know about the first point, but as for the second, are you saying that you genetically test all of your beef before you eat it? :confused:

No, I'm saying that I eat bulls. Or, at least, I eat hideously ugly bovines that do not produce milk.

If you can eat the animal do it. Heck, I think we should be able to eat any animal we want. (Outside of humans)

What's wrong with human meat? Other than the fact that it wouldn't taste good. And if you're so against canabilism it could be made into animal feed.

humans are omnivores we eat both meat and veggies

Unfortunately I don't have a citation for this, but I've read that humans evolved as herbavores and only began eating meat during the Ice Age, when plant food was scarce. It makes sense to me because if you look at the teeth of a human, yes, we have eye teeth for tearing, but the majority of our teeth are shaped for grinding plant food. Consider that there are four eye teeth versus twenty molars in your mouth, if you have all your teeth, including wisdom teeth. The fact that you can eat meat doesn't mean that you were meant to. Meat consumption has been linked with multiple terminal diseases and other serious health problems like cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, and heart disease, not to mention obesity, which suggests to me that we weren't meant to eat it.

I want to clear up this one last thing. The United States Department of Agriculture has stated that "Vegetarian diets can meet all the recommendations for nutrients." I found that here (http://www.mypyramid.gov/tips_resources/vegetarian_diets.html). So please stop talking about how one has to eat meat for protein and such. The fact is that most Americans consume far more protein daily than is required for a healthy diet. And studies have shown that the amount of animal protein in milk actually inhibits the body's absorption of calcium, so you can all get off of that too. Also consider that humans are the only species that drinks milk past infancy, and also the only species that drinks the milk of another species. That's just unnatural. If you still want to eat meat and drink milk, that's totally fine, but do it because you like the taste, not because you'd be malnourished without it, because it's not true.

What's wrong with human meat? Other than the fact that it wouldn't taste good. And if you're so against canabilism it could be made into animal feed.
Most canabal societies eventually die out due to a disease like "mad cow". Now I don't see why humans couldn't be fed to other animals. Save money for the zoo.

Mad Cow came about because they were feeding the cheapest leftovers of the slaughter house back to the cows. It was cheap protein and they cooked it to kill "germs". They didn't think that some things aren't destroyed by cooking.

----------

Now, people keep saying they eat the males. If you look back at my previous posts, you will see why that just isn't true.

Do you agree????? We feel that the slaughtering of innocent cows who could provide us with milk and milk products, such as as cheese and ice cream, is morally wrong. We are looking for those compassionate nationstaters that share our feelings.


Of course cows are for milking. No one eats cows unless they're starving. You eat steers.

And lets not forget all the wonderful leather! lol
I never could see why some people have trouble eating meat but I accept that its so. Therefore I do not go around and try to convince Vegans to eat beef. I only wish they, and others who do not eat meat, would have similar courtesy and not try to influence my eating habits.
Yes I DO know where my food comes from. Yes I HAVE seen what they do to animals to produce my favorite cuts of meat. No it does NOT dim my apetite or appreciation for my food. Yes I WILL continue to eat it regardless.

What's wrong with human meat? Other than the fact that it wouldn't taste good. And if you're so against canabilism it could be made into animal feed.


Hmmm, I haven't thought of that. That sounds like a pretty good idea.

The United States Department of Agriculture has stated that "Vegetarian diets can meet all the recommendations for nutrients." I found that here (http://www.mypyramid.gov/tips_resources/vegetarian_diets.html).

I have a really difficult time accepting USDA recommendations for a diet, considering they are responsible for agricultural commerce. I mean, really, do you buy stuff based on the recommendations of the person that's selling it to you?

a furry? i have no idea what you mean by that. but if you can not pay attion enough or can not understand what i had said it is not my fault, and you need to studdy population, growths and the impacts of each on the earth.

and as it has been a while since no one has posted anything since newtsburg there i can asume there is nothing wrong with eating meat and it is a life choice, not morals nor ethics.

also majority of the problems that people have with the quality of meat and illnesses related, it is because of the enviroment they were raised, and we were raised. *antibacterial mumbo jumbo, that sterial is healthy bullshit- should only be in hospitals* but those are other issues.

OOOOKAY. Humor wasted. Note to Self: Don't make a joke with Alabardios.

"But porkcops taste good. Bacon tastes good."

The only reason people get high cholesterole from meat is that they eat hamburgers and bacon. If you eat deer, duck and other wild animals you'll never get fat. The problem is I always have lots of cream sauce to those dishes, so LOL me.

I have a really difficult time accepting USDA recommendations for a diet, considering they are responsible for agricultural commerce. I mean, really, do you buy stuff based on the recommendations of the person that's selling it to you?

True, I didn't really think about that. I'm trying to practice what I preach and cite my facts. I couldn't remember where else I'd heard that vegetarian diets can be complete, except from the USDA.

How about here (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4777). "Vegetarian diets can be healthful and nutritionally sound if they’re carefully planned to include essential nutrients." Is the American Heart Association more acceptable?

Also, I know I'm arguing for veganism, but I just found this funny:

"Vegans who don’t get much sunlight may need a [vitamin D] supplement."

That's on the same page as the link above.

Cows are for milking and eating. I like the taste of both, therefore, I consume both. Case settled for me.