NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, do you think Jews are a race, or not. discuss, your logical or bigoted reasoning here. :p

There are no human races.

I don't really think so; you can convert to Judaism, and there are Jews in pretty much all major ethnic and racial groups, so it isn't a race per se. Plus, the Jews in Israel are Semitic people, just like the Arabs of the region.

I would say "native" religions like Shinto are more closely linked to ethnic origin and race.

There are no human races.

So then your answer is no?

It's only a race if there's a finish line.

no

but i supppose jewish might kinda be an ethnicity.

as well as a religion of course

Well, do you think Jews are a race, or not. discuss, your logical or bigoted reasoning here. :p

Historically, Jews are the descendants of Abraham. There are also converts, so yes and no. There are people who are racially Jewish, and people who are non racially Jewish. I hope that sufficiently confused everyone.

So then your answer is no?

You astound me with your comprehension of the written word.

It's only a race if there's a finish line.

So if we can find a Finnish jew, they get to be a race?

It's only a race if there's a finish line.

Thanks for adding your logic to this debate. It couldnt have done without your imput. :rolleyes:

Historically, Jews are the descendants of Abraham. There are also converts, so yes and no. There are people who are racially Jewish, and people who are non racially Jewish. I hope that sufficiently confused everyone.

But, what if most of those people who were descendants of Abraham mixed with other people like many of the Ashkenazi Jews of today which make up most of the Jews, are they racially Jewish?

So if we can find a Finnish jew, they get to be a race?
Almost. They get to race. Along with everybody else...

So if we can find a Finnish jew, they get to be a race?

Boo, hiss! Awful pun, darling, just awful.

Thanks for adding your logic to this debate.
Is that what they're calling wankery these days?

Jews as a collective group are not a race -they come from many extremely diverse gene pools that are in no way more similar that other compared poulations - Etheopian, Iraqi, Polish, Spanish, etc. there are fully-qualified Jews that have converted fromm other religions and cultures.

Some specific groups of Jews (or people of Jewish descent) might be considered a genetic population because of reproductive isolation over time, but it's purely a matter of semantics if you wish to classify these as a 'race' of not. Like other populations, they have certain genes with a higher frequency of similarity among themselves, than when compared to others, that's all.

Almost. They get to race. Along with everybody else...

Are you saying they can't race otherwise?

'cos that would be mean.

It's an ethnicity and a religion, but it's not a race since anyone can convert and become a Jew.

Boo, hiss! Awful pun, darling, just awful.

There are puns that aren't awful?

Jews as a collective group are not a race -they come from many extremely diverse gene pools that are in no way more similar that other compared poulations - Etheopian, Iraqi, Polish, Spanish, etc. there are fully-qualified Jews that have converted fromm other religions and cultures.

Some specific groups of Jews (or people of Jewish descent) might be considered a genetic population because of reproductive isolation over time, but it's purely a matter of semantics if you wish to classify these as a 'race' of not. Like other populations, they have certain genes with a higher frequency of similarity among themselves, than when compared to others, that's all.

hmm, suprisingly good and informing post. Good work.

Are you saying they can't race otherwise?

Heck no.

It's an ethnicity and a religion, but it's not a race since anyone can convert and become a Jew.

So by that logic, would it be possible to be an ethnic German and an ethnic Jew?

You have germanic characteristics, yet your family is Jewish for as far back as you can go. Which group would you be in....ethnic German or ethnic Jew?

There are puns that aren't awful?

Notably those that reach the level of jeux de mots.

Notably those that reach the level of jeux de mots.
Which'd be completely different than Jus De 'Mos. Right Fass?

After deep thought and careful consideration, I've dcided that I don't really care.

I define Judaism as a religion. The commonality of the jewish people is not a bloodline but a faith.

If there is a jewish 'race', then like all other races, it's nothing more than slight regional genetic variation due to geographic isolation. As geographic isolation no longer exists, these races are obsolete echoes of our past.

List of races inhabiting planet Earth:

1. Human

(end of list)

If there is a jewish 'race', then like all other races, it's nothing more than slight regional genetic variation due to geographic isolation. As geographic isolation no longer exists, these races are obsolete echoes of our past.Not quite. They may be, and should be socially irrelevant, but if you need a blood transfusion, or are more prone to certain heritable diseases, your genetic population/race may be very relevant indeed.

Which'd be completely different than Jus De 'Mos. Right Fass?

Très bien, Monsieur Bobs Own Pipe (and quite the impressive pipe, I'll wager, at that)! Vous avez compris.

jews live amongst us. they go to school with our children. they work in the next cubicle over. that woman on the bus yesterday, total jew. the police officer who pulled you over, did you see his nose? complete jew.

there is no such thing as the jewish race, not only because race is a social construct that doesn't really exist in any concrete form, but also because faith is their binding fact. we wouldnt say the christian race or the hindu race. being a jew does give a certain sense of ethnic affiliation though; its definitely an ethnic community.

No it's a religion.
Do you think Christians are a race?

being a jew does give a certain sense of ethnic affiliation though; its definitely an ethnic community.

Right, so heres my pickle. If you are a German and have all Germanic characteristics, yet you are Jewish and your family is Jewish for as far back as you can trace, are you an ethnic Jew, or ethnic German?

Not quite. They may be, and should be socially irrelevant, but if you need a blood transfusion, or are more prone to certain heritable diseases, your genetic population/race may be very relevant indeed.

For now.

There are black and arab jews as well as the white ones... for this reason jews are clearly not a race.

jews live amongst us. they go to school with our children. they work in the next cubicle over. that woman on the bus yesterday, total jew. the police officer who pulled you over, did you see his nose? complete jew.

there is no such thing as the jewish race, not only because race is a social construct that doesn't really exist in any concrete form, but also because faith is their binding fact. we wouldnt say the christian race or the hindu race. being a jew does give a certain sense of ethnic affiliation though; its definitely an ethnic community.
Wot about the Ethiopian Jews? And the ones from... where was it, Mozambique? Tanzania? I forget... but they're Jews, too.

There's more than European Jewry out there, after all.

There are black and arab jews as well as the white ones... for this reason jews are clearly not a race.

Black and white are races?

So by that logic, would it be possible to be an ethnic German and an ethnic Jew?

You have germanic characteristics, yet your family is Jewish for as far back as you can go. Which group would you be in....ethnic German or ethnic Jew?
Think of it like this. If a person is the product of a Turkish immigrant and a native German doesn't he share both ethnicities? So what's so weird about a Jewish German?

Black and white are races?

I thought they were cookies. :)

http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/v/svonberg/lj071403/9575000_92957500000_A2_1486d.jpg

Right, so heres my pickle. If you are a German and have all Germanic characteristics, yet you are Jewish and your family is Jewish for as far back as you can trace, are you an ethnic Jew, or ethnic German?Depend why you care, or in what context. If you just care about ehtnic culture, clearly there's no difference except for that of religion. If you care because of medical issues, it also depends on your family's particular history, how many intermarriages have happened and if that group of Jews that your family descends from were ever reproductively isolated in a closed community. If they weren't, there is no difference in the genetic profiles. According to your description, the family is german for all intents and purposes in any event.

I thought they were cookies. :)

http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/v/svonberg/lj071403/9575000_92957500000_A2_1486d.jpg

Ooh, the black stuff as well as the white stuff remind me of yumminess. :)

Right, so heres my pickle. If you are a German and have all Germanic characteristics, yet you are Jewish and your family is Jewish for as far back as you can trace, are you an ethnic Jew, or ethnic German?

Um, you are both? I don't see how that is a pickle. If you are in Germany then you most likely would accentuate your Jewish hertiage, since everyone around you is also German. If you move out of Germany, you probably accentuate both.

Say that my dad were from Ireland and my mom were from Mexico. Can I only be Irish or can I only be Mexican? Can I only choose one of my heritages to celebrate?

I think it can be both a race and a religion or one or the other, at least that's how it's been explained to me I know someone who is of Jewish decent, but is Catholic, and I also know someone of Native American decent who has converted to Judaism for her husband. (well, for her too, but decided after she met her husband)

There is no real way to distinguish a "race". It's like trying to give an exact range of RGB codes for "red" - people will disagree whether something is red or orange, or red or purple. Only with race, there are even more factors to take into account. Best not to try categorizing people that way.

Black and white are races?

In a word, yes.

Depend why you care, or in what context. If you just care about ehtnic culture, clearly there's no difference except for that of religion. If you care because of medical issues, it also depends on your family's particular history, how many intermarriages have happened and if that group of Jews that your family descends from were ever reproductively isolated in a closed community. If they weren't, there is no difference in the genetic profiles. According to your description, the family is german for all intents and purposes in any event.

I see, great post, thanks.:)

In a word, yes.

Not for much longer. :)

Think of it like this. If a person is the product of a Turkish immigrant and a native German doesn't he share both ethnicities? So what's so weird about a Jewish German?

I'm not really sure anymore after reading all these posts. :p

Historically, Jews are the descendants of Abraham. There are also converts, so yes and no. There are people who are racially Jewish, and people who are non racially Jewish. I hope that sufficiently confused everyone.
Precisly.

There are no human races.
^

In a word, yes.

Even though genetically two black persons can be more distant than a black and a white person?

Even though genetically two black persons can be more distant than a black and a white person?
Not suprising, but I did not know that.

Why do people think that culture and race are the same thing. Race is an artificial construct based on superficial physical differences. The real differences between people are cultural. Judaism is a religion/culture not a racial designation.

Not suprising, but I did not know that.
Totally possible. Mind you, that's mostly because people with black skin are more genetically diverse among themselves than everyone else on earth put together. Again, it all depends on what genes you're comparing -some will be identical fron bacteria to humans, others will be more common among groups, and others will be equally similar or different across the spectrum of humanity.
That doesn't mean that there aren't meaningfull groupings that can be beneficial to study and medicine - I think there are. Its just semantics that people get worked up about.

Not suprising, but I did not know that.

It's true. Genetic variation within a race can be broader than variation between races.

Race is nothing more than a side-effect. It should be allowed to die.

I think Hebrews are a race, not Jews. Most hebrews are Jewish, but not all Jews are Hebrew

Not suprising, but I did not know that.

http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20020507hgene0507p3.asp

It's true. Genetic variation within a race can be broader than variation between races.

Race is nothing more than a side-effect. It should be allowed to die.
Advocating homogenization isn't much better than advocating isolation. I don't see what the beef is. People, and populations will run their natural trajectories. In most cases, because of modern innovation, it'll mean more mixing, but future isolation and genetic drift between populations is also entirely possible. There's no way to predict that.

Are Christians a race of people? No.
How about Muslims? Nope.

Religion is not race. Skin color tends to be race.

Skin color tends to be race.It really isn't that simple, and it depends what you mean by 'race'.

Advocating homogenization isn't much better than advocating isolation. I don't see what the beef is. People, and populations will run their natural trajectories. In most cases, because of modern innovation, it'll mean more mixing, but future isolation and genetic drift between populations is also entirely possible. There's no way to predict that.

I'm sorry if I wasn't entirely clear. The current races are obsolete side-effects of geographic isolation and environment. That, in no way ought to suggest that I think people ought to actively resist genetic variation and environmental adaptation. Hell, that's impossible too.

What I'm suggesting is that Individuality trumps race.

What I'm suggesting is that Individuality trumps race.
DING DING DING

We have a winner, folks.

Race over. Winner's circle to the left.
Make your way to the exit.

Jewishness is a religion. Playing pretend is a choice and exactly the same choice if you where among any other religion.

There are no human races.

Nitpick: it is slightly more accurate there is only a single human race (homo sapiens sapiens) left today. Neanderthalers and such died out.

Alternatively one could say there is an almost infinite amount of races; since for instance a the 10th generation of a "crossbreeding" family would be hard to categorise in any meaningful way.

I think Hebrews are a race, not Jews. Most hebrews are Jewish, but not all Jews are Hebrew

I'd agree, except there aren't really any Hebrews anymore. I think back in the day where they were all decended in a way they could record from Abraham, yes, they were a race. Anymore? They're even more melting-poted than the US is, and not any of them can claim direct biological heritage, much less PURE direct biological heritage.

So Hebrews don't exist anymore, and Jews are only decended from Abraham in a spiritual sense, if you even would go for that sort of thing..

So no, they're not a race.

I can tell if someone is of jewish descent by looking at them. Therefore, subjectivly, Jews are a race. I don't think there are many people of non-jewish descent who become jewish so...

I can tell if someone is of jewish descent by looking at them. Therefore, subjectivly, Jews are a race. I don't think there are many people of non-jewish descent who become jewish so...

I know a couple of people who converted to Judaism. Also, what do Jews usually look like, in your opinion?

Also, if I told you I had light blonde hair, green eyes, and was 6"3 would you think I'm Jewish.

Just wondering?

Nitpick: it is slightly more accurate there is only a single human race (homo sapiens sapiens) left today.

Rendering it just a species. I hope you pick nits more successfully somewhere else.

The idea of a Jewish race was manufactured by Anti-Semites, or so is my suspicion.
I don't even think that Jews claimed any direct descent from ancient Hebrew tribes until later (and many probably don't now).
The idea was always for a homeland for people of Jewish faith, close to the land where that faith was born (and even that wasn't always clear, with all that talk about going to Africa or Argentina).

Whatever genes there may have been unique to the tribesmen when the Romans conquered the place (and I would again dispute even that, because I don't think a Hethite goatherder would ethinically have been different from a Hebrew goatherder) have long faded into irrelevance, thanks to the mixing of genes.

Where do agnostic Jews fit in?

There are races and Jews are one of them.

Where do agnostic Jews fit in?
Where would Hitler put them?

Skin color tends to be race.

Scientifically speaking, there are no races.

Race is a social construct. Race theories are social engineering.

Skin color can be very deceiving. Genetic studies show that fair complexioned North Indians are genetically more closer to the dark complexioned tribal populations than White Europeans, finally putting to rest the Aryan invasion nonsense.

The pseudo scientifc idiots invented a new race called Dravidians. :headbang:

Where would Hitler put them?
With the trisomites?

Scientifically there really no such thing as race. But in common use, the original Jewish people belong to the Semites which includes the Arabs, Kurds, and about 25 other peoples. This compares to Europeans as being from the Indo-Europeans (originally Aryan, but Hitler gave that bad overtones). In actuallity, both Semite and Indo-European refers to the language family and not a "race".

DNA has shown that Semites came from a very small group of people. indo-Europeans came from another very small group of people. As each group spread their languages slowly evolved into mmany different but related languages.

Scientifically there really no such thing as race. But in common use, the original Jewish people belong to the Semites which includes the Arabs, Kurds, and about 25 other peoples. This compares to Europeans as being from the Indo-Europeans (originally Aryan, but Hitler gave that bad overtones). In actuallity, both Semite and Indo-European refers to the language family and not a "race".

DNA has shown that Semites came from a very small group of people. indo-Europeans came from another very small group of people. As each group spread their languages slowly evolved into mmany different but related languages.


Eh, depends. Why do certain ethnicities have higher chance for certain diseases if there's no "scientific" difference?

The pseudo scientifc idiots invented a new race called Dravidians. :headbang:
I'd like to see their cricket team!

Jewish is a 'religion'
Hebrew is a 'language'

Historically pure line from abraham would make them Chaldean or from UR (babylonian / summerian)

Sumerian 'theohistory' has an 'orign' from the pantheon. Tales of magic etc.. made from clay and semen/water etc..

The pole shift flood etc.. comes into play.

Technically(scientifically/geneologically) everyone is thier own race. We all have a different make up with some common traits likely to be inherited.

Race as Mongoloid, Europoid, and Africanoid.

However there are many other classifications.

If the tribes are decendant of Noah, it would be Shem (Semetic Decendants, race etc... The 'Arabs and Jews' are both the same race. However after many thousands of years this may not be the case.

This of course if foggy but the general idea.

With the trisomites?
The Dutch Secret Service?

The Dutch Secret Service?
They were part of Ze Reseestance

They were part of Ze Reseestance
I am not Gestapo Officer!-Private Jones(Dad s Army)

So if we can find a Finnish jew, they get to be a race?

Funny you should mention that. I know someone from Finland who is converting to Judaism.

Eh, depends. Why do certain ethnicities have higher chance for certain diseases if there's no "scientific" difference?

Well, for one, certain families have a higher chance of certain diseases than others (many diseases have a strong hereditary element), but that doesn't make families different races.

Historically, Jews are the descendants of Abraham. There are also converts, so yes and no. There are people who are racially Jewish, and people who are non racially Jewish. I hope that sufficiently confused everyone.
So there could be thousands of "races" all you need is one common ancestor?

jews are a race.

Anyone can convert, you don't have to be a descendant of anyone in particular to be a jew.

The idea of a Jewish race was manufactured by Anti-Semites, or so is my suspicion.
I don't even think that Jews claimed any direct descent from ancient Hebrew tribes until later (and many probably don't now).
The idea was always for a homeland for people of Jewish faith, close to the land where that faith was born (and even that wasn't always clear, with all that talk about going to Africa or Argentina).

I find that many Jews that group Jews together as some kind of unique group/race/ethnic group are do in in a more spiritual way to kind of invoke a sense of unity. Just my opinion though.

Also, from what I understand (though I'm not sure about Argentina) "all that talk about going to Africa" was actually Hitler's Germany trying to deport all the Jews to freaking Madagascar...a Island off the south eastern coast of Africa.

Vegetarianistica']jews are a race.
Thank you.:fluffle:

do you guys thing other religions are races? if so then there is your answer

i for one believe that jews are indeed a race

I'd agree, except there aren't really any Hebrews anymore. I think back in the day where they were all decended in a way they could record from Abraham, yes, they were a race. Anymore? They're even more melting-poted than the US is, and not any of them can claim direct biological heritage, much less PURE direct biological heritage.

they are still around, though mixed with others. Saying that they are not around anymore is like saying the Italians arent around anymore because they mixed with Greeks and much later Germans. So while they may not be "pure" Hebrew, I think they are around still

do you guys thing other religions are races? if so then there is your answer

i for one believe that jews are indeed a race
What would Hebrews be otherwise?

Also, from what I understand (though I'm not sure about Argentina) "all that talk about going to Africa" was actually Hitler's Germany trying to deport all the Jews to freaking Madagascar...a Island off the south eastern coast of Africa.
No, when the Zionists first met, there were a number of plans for where the Jewish state could be. One plan was for them Uganda, although I'm not sure whether they meant that to be indefinite.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Uganda.html

do you guys thing other religions are races? if so then there is your answer

i for one believe that jews are indeed a race

So, Christians are a race?

No, when the Zionists first met, there were a number of plans for where the Jewish state could be. One plan was for them Uganda, although I'm not sure whether they meant that to be indefinite.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Uganda.html

Well that too then. But there was also the Madagascar plan which was a Nazi one.

Well that too then. But there was also the Madagascar plan which was a Nazi one.
Of course, but that doesn't count because it wasn't exactly like Jews sat down and decided that one.

My point was that for some time there was a large number of Jews who didn't so much feel an ancient connection with Israel in particular, as a connection with their contemporary fellow Jews, and felt that Argentina, or even Uganda might be a better place for today's Jews to live.
Not to forget that most Jews in Germany called themselves German before anything else. They fought in WWI, they fought before that. Jews used to be a central part of German culture...and indeed, what do you think the language of "Yiddish" is? And where do you think names ending with "-stein" come from?
The idea of a Jewish race was put forward by anti-semites and Christian fanatics as a way of making a distinction between "them" and "us".

Apart from the actual Hebrew relics, one could probably even put forward a case that "Jewish culture" is largely German...:p

I voted yes, but what I really mean is that Judaism is an ethincity - the Race would be Semites, which includes more broadly Arabs, Caananites ("Palestinians"), Persians ("Iranians"), and Kurds (Egyptians are not Semitic). However, there are converts to the Jewish faith, as there always has been, as described in the Tanakh, Rahab the Canaanite and Ruth the Moabite. There have also been the merger of the Khazars into the Ashkenazi Jews in Russia, the intermarriage between Sephardic Jews (like myself) with Spaniards, Moors (back in the day when we were in Spain), Turks, Dutch, and others, and other factors. There is a genetic distinction that has been discovered pinpointing members of the Tribe of Levi, a distinction found in many of the people with names like "Levin" "Levine" and others, but is also discovered in people across Africa (especially Ethiopia and surrounding areas), Europe (generally western), and even in the Far East, China, Korea, and Japan.

Jews, or better put "Hebrews" are an ethnicity. However, not all practitioners of the Jewish Faith are fully or even at all of Hebrew ethnic blood, nor are all with Hebrew blood practitioners of the Jewish Faith.

EDIT: Also, as a Sephardic Jew, I must note that none of my culture comes from Germany, so I must take offense at that statement.

Of course, but that doesn't count because it wasn't exactly like Jews sat down and decided that one.

My point was that for some time there was a large number of Jews who didn't so much feel an ancient connection with Israel in particular, as a connection with their contemporary fellow Jews, and felt that Argentina, or even Uganda might be a better place for today's Jews to live.
Not to forget that most Jews in Germany called themselves German before anything else. They fought in WWI, they fought before that. Jews used to be a central part of German culture...and indeed, what do you think the language of "Yiddish" is? And where do you think names ending with "-stein" come from?
The idea of a Jewish race was put forward by anti-semites and Christian fanatics as a way of making a distinction between "them" and "us".

Apart from the actual Hebrew relics, one could probably even put forward a case that "Jewish culture" is largely German...:p

I think this is the first post of your that I not only can agree with, but will applaud. My family fought for both Germany and Austria during WWI. Also, the whole idea about reform Judaism, which made Judaism more widespread, came from German Jews.

Also, as a Sephardic Jew, I must note that none of my culture comes from Germany, so I must take offense at that statement.
Feel free.
It depends of course on which type of Jew you consider yourself...but it's difficult to deny that Germany was home to a very large and influential number of Jews before WWII, and that those Jews have obviously retained much of their German Culture as well.

But I would agree that Israel today doesn't have all that much in common with Germany, thanks to the move towards more traditional Hebrew culture (ie language, names and so on).
Go to the US however, and look at the Jewish population there, and you'll see a different picture.

I voted yes, but what I really mean is that Judaism is an ethincity - the Race would be Semites, which includes more broadly Arabs, Caananites ("Palestinians"), Persians ("Iranians"), and Kurds (Egyptians are not Semitic). However, there are converts to the Jewish faith, as there always has been, as described in the Tanakh, Rahab the Canaanite and Ruth the Moabite. There have also been the merger of the Khazars into the Ashkenazi Jews in Russia, the intermarriage between Sephardic Jews (like myself) with Spaniards, Moors (back in the day when we were in Spain), Turks, Dutch, and others, and other factors. There is a genetic distinction that has been discovered pinpointing members of the Tribe of Levi, a distinction found in many of the people with names like "Levin" "Levine" and others, but is also discovered in people across Africa (especially Ethiopia and surrounding areas), Europe (generally western), and even in the Far East, China, Korea, and Japan.

Jews, or better put "Hebrews" are an ethnicity. However, not all practitioners of the Jewish Faith are fully or even at all of Hebrew ethnic blood, nor are all with Hebrew blood practitioners of the Jewish Faith.

EDIT: Also, as a Sephardic Jew, I must note that none of my culture comes from Germany, so I must take offense at that statement.

Dont take offense, he said "largely" and hes right it does. Most Jews now a days are Ashkenazi anyway, so he would be correct. Also, reform Judaism came out of Germany, which most Jews today follow. So, again he would be right.

Feel free.
It depends of course on which type of Jew you consider yourself...but it's difficult to deny that Germany was home to a very large and influential number of Jews before WWII, and that those Jews have obviously retained much of their German Culture as well.

But I would agree that Israel today doesn't have all that much in common with Germany, thanks to the move towards more traditional Hebrew culture (ie language, names and so on).
Go to the US however, and look at the Jewish population there, and you'll see a different picture.

Like my family.

Correction: Most Jews are not Ashkenazi. They are just the more obvious ones.
Statement: There have also been many influential Sephardic Jews. Just not in this century.
Note: Sephardic Jews made it to here (the New World) first. Sephardic Jews were more than 80% of the Dutch that founded New Amsterdam.

Correction: Most Jews are not Ashkenazi. They are just the more obvious ones.
Statement: There have also been many influential Sephardic Jews. Just not in this century.
Note: Sephardic Jews made it to here (the New World) first. Sephardic Jews were more than 80% of the Dutch that founded New Amsterdam.

Wrong, most (and by a huge majority) Jews are Ashkenazi.

Statement: Speaking as a Sephardic Jew, I think I can tell you that we're far more numerous than you seem to believe. Most of us, however, live in the Netherlands and Turkey.

Apology: I am sorry for doing this, spending to much time talking to HK-47 on KOTOR II :)

Statement: Speaking as a Sephardic Jew, I think I can tell you that we're far more numerous than you seem to believe. Most of us, however, live in the Netherlands and Turkey.

Apology: I am sorry for doing this, spending to much time talking to HK-47 on KOTOR II :)

You can be as numerous as you want, but I'm telling you there is a much larger majority of Ashkenazi Jews.

In fact, I'm gonna prove you wrong.

Statement: Speaking as a Sephardic Jew, I think I can tell you that we're far more numerous than you seem to believe. Most of us, however, live in the Netherlands and Turkey.
Perhaps...but a quick search tells me that Ashkenazi Jews make for 80%, while Sephardic (specifically only one subgroup) is today often used to mean everyone who's not Ashkenazi.

Not that this matters much to my argument, because Spain isn't ancient Israel either.

http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/sephardic.htm

Ashkenazi Jews accounted for (at their highest) 92% of the world's Jews in 1931 and today make up approximately 80% of Jews worldwide [5]. Most Jewish communities with extended histories in Europe are Ashkenazim, with the exception of those associated with the Mediterranean region. A significant portion of the Jews who migrated from Europe to other continents in the past two centuries are Eastern Ashkenazim, particularly in the United States.

Says Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi)


TAKE THAT, HISTORY LOVERS.

Statement: If you have such proof, I would like it's source and how they actually prove that there are more.
Clarification: I know that Ashkenazim are in the majority, but it is not as vast a majority as you seem to think. I am also not making the claim that Sephardim are almost equal to Ashkenazim, but there are far more other different types of Jews.

Perhaps...but a quick search tells me that Ashkenazi Jews make for 80%, while Sephardic (specifically only one subgroup) is today often used to mean everyone who's not Ashkenazi.

Not that this matters much to my argument, because Spain isn't ancient Israel either.

http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/sephardic.htm


Look at my above post.

Statement: If you have such proof, I would like it's source and how they actually prove that there are more.
Clarification: I know that Ashkenazim are in the majority, but it is not as vast a majority as you seem to think. I am also not making the claim that Sephardim are almost equal to Ashkenazim, but there are far more other different types of Jews.

read post 102 and follow the link, bitch....lol sorry, I had to.

Historically, Jews are the descendants of Abraham. There are also converts, so yes and no. There are people who are racially Jewish, and people who are non racially Jewish. I hope that sufficiently confused everyone.

You're also assuming that Abraham was a historic person. So far, there isn't any proof of that. And just to make it more confusing, many Arab Muslims also claim to be descendents of Abraham.

I was posting before you posted.

Also, I'd like to ask, how did they get the information for people in Turkey, where they do not allow such polls? Or Syria? Yugoslavia? Armenia? Lebanon? Iraq, even? None of these places allow or can have such polls, and they have significant Sephardic populations.

And I do not consider other non-Ashkenazi types to be Sephardic.

And I do not consider other non-Ashkenazi types to be Sephardic.
Personally, I couldn't really care. Wiki said it, but it doesn't have to be right.

But regardless. My point was that almost all Jews today come from populations and cultures that have little if anything to do with the original Hebrew tribes.
Whether those cultures come from Germany or Spain is really pretty irrelevant, don't you think?

Um...well, considering that "Jew" is a tribal designation...deriving from "Judah", the most populous tribe...only three Tribes survived the Assyrian invasion, Benjamin, Judah, and Levi. The others were either A killed or B merged with the gentiles into "Samaritans"

And my culture has very much to do with the original Jews. Jewish culture is centered on the Torah, no matter if you are Sephardic or Ashkenazi or whatever. If you have no respect for the Torah, then I question whether you are actually Jewish (religion, I don't question ethnicity)

Personally, I couldn't really care. Wiki said it, but it doesn't have to be right.

But regardless. My point was that almost all Jews today come from populations and cultures that have little if anything to do with the original Hebrew tribes.
Whether those cultures come from Germany or Spain is really pretty irrelevant, don't you think?

Well the fact remains that the majority (whether he wants to admit it or not) of Jews are ashkenazi now a days are have been heavily influenced by germanic culture. Also...let me just say that many of the sephardim from those arab countries left them to come to Israel. I dont think there are as many Jews in arab countries anymore as you seem to think.

That second part was for History Lovers.

Well the fact remains that the majority (whether he wants to admit it or not) of Jews are ashkenazi now a days are have been heavily influenced by germanic culture. Also...let me just say that many of the sephardim from those arab countries left them to come to Israel. I dont think there are as many Jews in arab countries anymore as you seem to think.

That second part was for History Lovers.
I don't think Arab countries are very tolerant of them.

BTW, you didn't use A-rab like you usually do :p

I don't think Arab countries are very tolerant of them.

BTW, you didn't use A-rab like you usually do :p

*Can be heard slaughtering several animals and a few small children to compensate*

I don't think Arab countries are very tolerant of them.

BTW, you didn't use A-rab like you usually do :p

Lol, but seriously A-rabs are not tolerate of them at all, which again leads me to beleive that most of them left for Israel.

SHIT someone deleted my thread....IT WAS SO SHORT LIVED!

Lol, but seriously A-rabs are not tolerate of them at all, which again leads me to beleive that most of them left for Israel.
I would think so. According to recent publications, Islamic countries (especially more traditionalist ones) are not exactly friendly to Jews.

SHIT someone deleted my thread....IT WAS SO SHORT LIVED!
I could make one, but then I'd probably end up banned :p

I would think so. According to recent publications, Islamic countries (especially more traditionalist ones) are not exactly friendly to Jews.

No, but, more importantly, this feeling is not only for Jews, it is held by muslims for Christians, Jews, and anyone who represents the west. The only reason you hear it more for Jews, is because, well obviously Israels geographical location. So, as a good example, if you look towards the low countries and France you will see muslim hatred towards the Christians and the west.

I would think so. According to recent publications, Islamic countries (especially more traditionalist ones) are not exactly friendly to Jews.
They are quite okay in Iran, I believe.

I could make one, but then I'd probably end up banned :p

Lol, nah. I rather enjoy you on the threads.

They are quite okay in Iran, I believe.

Well lets give this new Hitler wannabe some time, then re state that comment.

Lol, nah. I rather enjoy you on the threads.
Yeah, which is why I won't be making one ;)

They are quite okay in Iran, I believe.
For the time being, yes.

They are quite okay in Iran, I believe.

Also, did you happen to catch what I said about you on "my thread"?

Iraq was actually very tolerant to Jews under Hussein...the Minister of Internal Affairs was a Sephardic Jew.

Iran has a significant Jewish population (although they are Oriental, not Sephardic).

Syria is quite secular and has a small Jewish population (most emigrated to Israel)

Lebanon has NO Jews left because they all moved south to Israel.

Turkey has a very significant Jewish population, who are not oppressed for the reason they are Jewish, though many do move to Israel.

There are a very surprising number of Jews in Arab countries. It seems Muslims have no problem with Jews except with Jews having our own state. We had no problems between us for the 1500 years when CHRISTIANS were persecuting us and we all ran away to Muslim lands.

Also, did you happen to catch what I said about you on "my thread"?
I did...but I didn't know what to answer, so yeah, there you go. :D

I did...but I didn't know what to answer, so yeah, there you go. :D

There was no need for an answer, it was just important to me that you got the message. Now, I know you did, so its all good. :p

Iraq was actually very tolerant to Jews under Hussein...the Minister of Internal Affairs was a Sephardic Jew.

Iran has a significant Jewish population (although they are Oriental, not Sephardic).

Syria is quite secular and has a small Jewish population (most emigrated to Israel)

Lebanon has NO Jews left because they all moved south to Israel.

Turkey has a very significant Jewish population, who are not oppressed for the reason they are Jewish, though many do move to Israel.

There are a very surprising number of Jews in Arab countries. It seems Muslims have no problem with Jews except with Jews having our own state. We had no problems between us for the 1500 years when CHRISTIANS were persecuting us and we all ran away to Muslim lands.

What of Jordan, the Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and so on?

Iraq was actually very tolerant to Jews under Hussein...the Minister of Internal Affairs was a Sephardic Jew.

Iran has a significant Jewish population (although they are Oriental, not Sephardic).

Syria is quite secular and has a small Jewish population (most emigrated to Israel)

Lebanon has NO Jews left because they all moved south to Israel.

Turkey has a very significant Jewish population, who are not oppressed for the reason they are Jewish, though many do move to Israel.

There are a very surprising number of Jews in Arab countries. It seems Muslims have no problem with Jews except with Jews having our own state. We had no problems between us for the 1500 years when CHRISTIANS were persecuting us and we all ran away to Muslim lands.

You were just done stating to how most left from whatever country, and then you say it seems muslims have no problems with Jews? Wake up, they have a problem with us. They want us, Israel, the western world, dead. They beleive its Gods will, how does one argue with people like that?

Wake up, they have a problem with us. They want us, Israel, the western world, dead. They beleive its Gods will, how does one argue with people like that?
What are you talking about?
They have a problem with Israel. And a small majority have a problem with the Western World.
How can you possibly justify using that for an attack against "Muslims" - more than a billion people afterall.

What are you talking about?
They have a problem with Israel. And a small majority have a problem with the Western World.
How can you possibly justify using that for an attack against "Muslims" - more than a billion people afterall.
I think he means the hard-line Arab states specifically.

What are you talking about?
They have a problem with Israel. And a small majority have a problem with the Western World.
How can you possibly justify using that for an attack against "Muslims" - more than a billion people afterall.

Easy. But, for arguements sake lets exclude non middle eastern muslims. The arab governments (for the most part) promote this feeling so that the people, though they wouldnt nessecarily think this way on there own, are brought up with this fascist propaganda in their media and schools.

Well, SA has no Jews and hasn't since Mohammad murdered them all. Jordan has a few Jews, no country in Arabia has any Jews, and there are few in the Sudan, more concentrated near Ethiopia (which is mostly Muslim but actually has one of the largest Jewish populations by percentage in the World, though they would be Ethiopian Jews, not Sephardic or Ashkenazi. If you remember, the kings of Ethiopia claimed descendance from Solomon, and I am not inclined to disagree...)

EDIT: Also, most of the governments blame ISRAEL, not the Jews, ISRAEL.

Well, SA has no Jews and hasn't since Mohammad murdered them all. Jordan has a few Jews, no country in Arabia has any Jews, and there are few in the Sudan, more concentrated near Ethiopia (which is mostly Muslim but actually has one of the largest Jewish populations by percentage in the World, though they would be Ethiopian Jews, not Sephardic or Ashkenazi. If you remember, the kings of Ethiopia claimed descendance from Solomon, and I am not inclined to disagree...)

EDIT: Also, most of the governments blame ISRAEL, not the Jews, ISRAEL.
Arabia definitely is not friendly towards Jews. And they associate them with Israel.

Arabia definitely is not friendly towards Jews. And they associate them with Israel.

Exactly.

Well, SA has no Jews and hasn't since Mohammad murdered them all. Jordan has a few Jews, no country in Arabia has any Jews, and there are few in the Sudan, more concentrated near Ethiopia (which is mostly Muslim but actually has one of the largest Jewish populations by percentage in the World, though they would be Ethiopian Jews, not Sephardic or Ashkenazi. If you remember, the kings of Ethiopia claimed descendance from Solomon, and I am not inclined to disagree...)

EDIT: Also, most of the governments blame ISRAEL, not the Jews, ISRAEL.

Go to the middle east and tell me if the Arabs have a problem with you if your Jewish.


Hint hint, I'v been there and the answer is YES THEY DO.

Eh, depends. Why do certain ethnicities have higher chance for certain diseases if there's no "scientific" difference?
Obviously, a genetic change happens in one person in one place on earth. As that person's children, grandchildren, etc. marry those close to where they live, that genetic change spreads first to the population that lives closest to the originator of the genetic change. Given enough time, the genetic change will work its way around the world. That of course would take millions of years before modern transportation.

Go to the middle east and tell me if the Arabs have a problem with you if your Jewish.


Hint hint, I'v been there and the answer is YES THEY DO.you are a Jew?

you are a Jew?

Yup...Thought I'v mentioned it. Once. Or twice. lol.

A blonde Jew.

The few. The proud. The-former-toe-head-now-light-blonde-haired-Jews.

I really don't have a definition for the word 'race' so I don't know.:(

Arabia is the exception to the rule, not the rule itself. There really isn't as much anti-Jewish sentiment as it seems, more anti-Israeli sentiment. However, any Western Jew would be seen as an Israeli. The Jews around there are different to them, in a way. They look Arab, they speak Arabic. Jews from elsewhere...are generally light-skinned, more western. Jewish people native to the Muslim countries look like people there, act mostly like people there. They aren't the same as we more secular Jews of the West...they're more like the Muslims, in ways, than like us...

Yup...Thought I'v mentioned it. Once. Or twice. lol.

A blonde Jew.

The few. The proud. The-former-toe-head-now-light-blonde-haired-Jews.Let me see... You are a Jew but you are not a Semite.

You are "Caucasian"(white) by Race
and
You are "Jewish" by Religion.

Arabia is the exception to the rule, not the rule itself. There really isn't as much anti-Jewish sentiment as it seems, more anti-Israeli sentiment. However, any Western Jew would be seen as an Israeli. The Jews around there are different to them, in a way. They look Arab, they speak Arabic. Jews from elsewhere...are generally light-skinned, more western. Jewish people native to the Muslim countries look like people there, act mostly like people there. They aren't the same as we more secular Jews of the West...they're more like the Muslims, in ways, than like us...
I doubt this breeds any sympathy for them amongst the Arabs though.

The jews are part of the semetic race whose origins lie somewhere in the Middle East. Religon has nothing to do with jews being jews since I have seen and met many jews who do not believe in god or religon but still considered themselves to be jewish.

I doubt this breeds any sympathy for them amongst the Arabs though.

Exactly. To the A-rabs, they are still Jews, and thats what it biols down to however you coat it.

Let me see... You are a Jew but you are not a Semite.

You are "Caucasian"(white) by Race
and
You are "Jewish" by Religion.

Sounds about right.

The jews are part of the semetic race whose origins lie somewhere in the Middle East. Religon has nothing to do with jews being jews since I have seen and met many jews who do not believe in god or religon but still considered themselves to be jewish.

Ok...possibly because they are non practicing Jews.

If you saw a middle eastern Jew, a black African Jew, and a White (nordic?) Jew, you would say they are all part of the same race?

Ok...possibly because they are non practicing Jews.

If you saw a middle eastern Jew, a black African Jew, and a White (nordic?) Jew, you would say they are all part of the same race?

Yes. You see the longer jews stay within an area the more they adopt the looks of the natives(this could be a result of racial mixing,assimilation etc) and even though the skin color of the examples you mentioned might be different they still have the same semetic racial origins.

Sounds about right.
Is your ancestral blood completely German or whatever it is?

Is your ancestral blood completely German or whatever it is?

Mostly. Prussian, Austrian with some Russian thrown in there somewhere.

The changing of the color of the skin occurs over time, especially with some mixing. There is also mixing that occurs that changes them to a different appearance over millenia. It takes a long time, but a long time it's been. The Diaspora began in 70. It ended in 1948. That's a good two millenia.

Well, do you think Jews are a race, or not. discuss, your logical or bigoted reasoning here. :p
"Race" is a fiction designed by certain humans to allow them to look down on other humans.

Yeah, I consider I's a race.

Mostly. Prussian, Austrian with some Russian thrown in there somewhere.
Ah, interesting bloodline :)

Mostly. Prussian, Austrian with some Russian thrown in there somewhere.

I think its something like most of my background is Prussian, traced back to Berlin. Then most of the rest are from Austria....traced back to Vienna...and then whats left was Russian.

My Russian family immigrated to America in the, I think it was 1890's, my Prussian and Austrian family immigrated to America right around the post WWI 1920s....Family fought for Austria and Germany in WWI, though my Russian family fought for America, however, by WWII all of my family fought for the Americans, mostly against the Japs, and I could not find any relatives of mine that died in the holocaust.

I think its something like most of my background is Prussian, traced back to Berlin. Then most of the rest are from Austria....traced back to Vienna...and then whats left was Russian.

My Russian family immigrated to America in the, I think it was 1890's, my Prussian and Austrian family immigrated to America right around the post WWI 1920s....Family fought for Austria and Germany in WWI, though my Russian family fought for America, however, by WWII all of my family fought for the Americans, mostly against the Japs, and I could not find any relatives of mine that died in the holocaust.
I doubt that your family would be involved in the Holocaust though, especially since you're only Jewish by faith.

Where would Hitler put them?
I hear Buchenwald is nice this time of year. :rolleyes:

Considering that a "race" is genetic, and therefore cannot be changed, Jews are not a race, because you can convert to and from Judaism... that is like considering any other religion, such as Christians, a race. Certainly, I bet there is a slightly more common genetic makeup due to social isolations, but that does not make Jews a race.

Ah, interesting bloodline :)

Thank you. At the risk of sounding like an ass, I think it has produced a fine product. lol.

You can convert to the RELIGION Judaism, not convert to the Jewish ethnicity.

By it's own definition, Judaism is an ethnicity, the descendants of one man, Yisrael. Now, there are converts, but they are only to the religion.

I doubt that your family would be involved in the Holocaust though, especially since you're only Jewish by faith.

Yes, also, we were very assimiliated into German/Austrian soceity living in the capitals and all. But none of that matters because my family was in America fighting the fascists during that time.


The Jap fascist that is.

Vegetarianistica']jews are a race.
"Race" is a psuedo-cultural construct and has no basis in science.

I hear Buchenwald is nice this time of year. :rolleyes:

Ignore him, hes an ignorant ass....unless hes joking which is still not very funny.

Japan wasn't fascist...

Japan wasn't fascist...
Pretty close to it. Closer than Germany was, anyways.

Japan wasn't fascist...
It was extremely nationalist and incredibly racist.

Thank you. At the risk of sounding like an ass, I think it has produced a fine product. lol.
lol it does sound a bit arrogant, but yeah as long as you're happy with it :p

No they are not a "race". You are not born "Jew", so thereforth it cannot be a race.

it's a religion. Just like Catholics, Later Day Saints (Mormons), or Muslims.

I am born a Jew. I just proved your entire point incorrect :) .

And Japan was racist and nationalist, but that does not equal fascist. Japan was acting the same way it had for the previous millenium or so.

EDIT: And we are a religion, but we are also a People, by the very definition of the religion.

Hebrews

And Japan was racist and nationalist, but that does not equal fascist. Japan was acting the same way it had for the previous millenium or so.
Racism is not a required part of fascism. Fascism only needs a sense of community, against which others can be defined...it doesn't have to be along racial lines.
Fascist Italy is my model of a fascist state, and Jews lived quite well there until the Nazis took over late in the war.

Nazism =/= Fascism.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

I am born a Jew. I just proved your entire point incorrect :) .

And Japan was racist and nationalist, but that does not equal fascist. Japan was acting the same way it had for the previous millenium or so.

EDIT: And we are a religion, but we are also a People, by the very definition of the religion.

Why dont you explain to me how Japan was not Fascist, Mr. "History Lover"?

Racism is not a required part of fascism. Fascism only needs a sense of community, against which others can be defined...it doesn't have to be along racial lines.
Fascist Italy is my model of a fascist state, and Jews lived quite well there until the Nazis took over late in the war.

Nazism =/= Fascism.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html
Was Japan at the time fascist? I have little knowledge of Japan after 19th c. up to late 20th c.

Racism is not a required part of fascism. Fascism only needs a sense of community, against which others can be defined...it doesn't have to be along racial lines.
Fascist Italy is my model of a fascist state, and Jews lived quite well there until the Nazis took over late in the war.

Nazism =/= Fascism.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

You just love that link dont you, lol. You pulled out that bad boy on me not too long ago when we were talking about Bush's policies. :p

Was Japan at the time fascist? I have little knowledge of Japan after 19th c. up to late 20th c.
Well, it was militaristic, the community went before the individual, it was fiercely patriotic, yet private property was respected, and pragmatic ("do what works") economic policies were used.
I think you could probably call it fascist, although no Japanese person ever said: "How about we make Fascism our political system?", no one ever explicitly mentioned it.

You just love that link dont you, lol. You pulled out that bad boy on me not too long ago when we were talking about Bush's policies. :p
Well, it is the entry into the Italian Encyclopedia about what Fascism is, written by Mussolini himself. So it's the best definition we have - and whenever people use the f-word without backing it up, I post it. :D

See, this is like saying Cambodian is a race. (it's not, genius.)
Judisim is a religion, but perhaps isralei or however they spell it CAN be concidered a race...

Man this post makes me feel like i should be goose-stepping and shouting "SE HEIL!"

Well, it was militaristic, the community went before the individual, it was fiercely patriotic, yet private property was respected, and pragmatic ("do what works") economic policies were used.
I think you could probably call it fascist, although no Japanese person ever said: "How about we make Fascism our political system?", no one ever explicitly mentioned it.
Indeed. It may have been fervently nationalistic and patriotic, even imperialistic, though I don't think it went as far as fascism.

All of those things are true about Japan, so it was pseudo-Fascist, but Fascism is a declared state, and they were not such. If you say Japan was fascist then, then they were the first fascist state, thousands of years ago.

Indeed. It may have been fervently nationalistic and patriotic, even imperialistic, though I don't think it went as far as fascism.

I dont think Fascism took it that far...Italy was kinda a softy, I think NAZISM took it to the next level.

I am born a Jew. I just proved your entire point incorrect :) .

And Japan was racist and nationalist, but that does not equal fascist. Japan was acting the same way it had for the previous millenium or so.

EDIT: And we are a religion, but we are also a People, by the very definition of the religion.

How can you be born a jewish person? That's like saying I was born Catholic. I may have been baptized in a Catholic Church, and I may have been born into a Catholic family, but I wasn't born Catholic.

I dont think Fascism took it that far...Italy was kinda a softy, I think NAZISM took it to the next level.
Italy, post Roman Empire, has never been much of a military power nor a very authoritarian state.

It's true that you aren't "born" Catholic, but Catholicism doesn't define you as a descendant of a specific perso. There is such a thing as "Jewish blood" by definition of the religion. The blood within me is genetically related to Abraham, Isaac, and Yisrael. That makes me a Jew by blood.

It's true that you aren't "born" Catholic, but Catholicism doesn't define you as a descendant of a specific perso. There is such a thing as "Jewish blood" by definition of the religion. The blood within me is genetically related to Abraham, Isaac, and Yisrael. That makes me a Jew by blood.
Seeing as being a Jew by religion hardly alters your genome pattern, I don't see that as true. Conceptually though, I see your point.

It's true that you aren't "born" Catholic, but Catholicism doesn't define you as a descendant of a specific perso. There is such a thing as "Jewish blood" by definition of the religion. The blood within me is genetically related to Abraham, Isaac, and Yisrael. That makes me a Jew by blood.

No its not. Jews just say that to promote a sense of unity.

Italy, post Roman Empire, has never been much of a military power nor a very authoritarian state.

No...they have kinda been pussies. For instance...swapping sides from axis to allied to axis to allied...Sorta like a John Kerry. Also, they attacked weak nations and got destroyed when faced with any real competition.

! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Angered Statement: IT IS TRUE!!!!
Warning: There is a 92% chance of a flame war if you continue down this road.

EDIT: And I am angered by the statement comparing John Kerry to stinking Italian Fascists.

No...they have kinda been pussies. For instance...swapping sides from axis to allied to axis to allied...Sorta like a John Kerry. Also, they attacked weak nations and got destroyed when faced with any real competition.
Hardly the military empire that Mussolini envisioned them as. I guess he had Napoleonic France in his recent memory (France, from the Middle Ages to Napoleon was a veritable superpower). He saw himself as Napoleon's heir lol

Italy's invasion of Abyssinia was pathetic. They won, but with much effort. Hitler had to protect them diplomatically.

! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Angered Statement: IT IS TRUE!!!!
Warning: There is a 92% chance of a flame war if you continue down this road.

EDIT: And I am angered by the statement comparing John Kerry to stinking Italian Fascists.

Counter Statement: No its not. There has been tons of mixing and converting and dillution. Thats just like saying we are all related to the same person...well sure we are but it doesnt really mean anything.

Also, I didnt say Kerry was Fascist, but they both seemed to have flip flopped alot.


P.S. John Kerry is a fascist bastard :p

...swapping sides from axis to allied to axis to allied...Sorta like a John Kerry.
ROFLMFAO!!!! :D

EDIT: And I am angered by the statement comparing John Kerry to stinking Italian Fascists.
I'm not! I think it's frakking hilarious! :D

! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Angered Statement: IT IS TRUE!!!!
Warning: There is a 92% chance of a flame war if you continue down this road.
Don't be so sensitive.
He's addressing the question this thread was meant to ask: Is there such a thing as a "Jew"-Gene?

You're saying that because at some point in your family's history they switched religions and became Jewish, you suddenly have a gene that can be traced back to people who may well be fictional, figures from the Old Testament.

You can believe that in the way that Christians can believe in Jesus being God, but there is prescious little proof you can provide, and quite honestly, I think logic suggests the opposite to be true.

Hardly the military empire that Mussolini envisioned them as. I guess he had Napoleonic France in his recent memory (France, from the Middle Ages to Napoleon was a veritable superpower). He saw himself as Napoleon's heir lol

Italy's invasion of Abyssinia was pathetic. They won, but with much effort. Hitler had to protect them diplomatically.

Its funny because, while Italian nationalism, as you say, sought to relive Frances glory days in Italy, German nationalism, was about rejecting all things French, due to the French defeat of the Prussians. Kinda strange how that worked out.

I'm not! I think it's frakking hilarious! :D

Lol..thanks...great audiance here tonight. :D

Its funny because, while Italian nationalism, as you say, sought to relive Frances glory days in Italy, German nationalism, was about rejecting all things French, due to the French defeat of the Prussians. Kinda strange how that worked out.
Prussia just had a deep hatred towards France. France was, however, a true superpower in its days, and a very powerful military empire. The French were no weaklings and by no means cowardly. I think Prussia had a grudging admiration of France, sort of like how Japan grudgingly admired Germany.

No, because I have no "switched". My ancestors go back to that point.

And I do take offense when my religious beliefs are questioned.

I don't give a **** what the ****ing logic says. This is an offense to my religious belief. However, to prevent myself from crossing the line into flaming (if I haven't already), I will avoid posting in this thread from this point.

No, because I have no "switched". My ancestors go back to that point.

And I do take offense when my religious beliefs are questioned.

I don't give a **** what the ****ing logic says. This is an offense to my religious belief. However, to prevent myself from crossing the line into flaming (if I haven't already), I will avoid posting in this thread from this point.
Good idea lol

And I do take offense when my religious beliefs are questioned.
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
Some people live in the proverbial ivory tower :p

Prussia just had a deep hatred towards France. France was, however, a true superpower in its days, and a very powerful military empire. The French were no weaklings and by no means cowardly. I think Prussia had a grudging admiration of France, sort of like how Japan grudgingly admired Germany.

I dont know about that. The Prussians deeply hated the French. I'm not sure their was admiration in there at all. Though, I admit, that in Frances glory days it DID have a supreme culture and military. That was another reason for the German Volksguies SP (Neu Leonstein, help me out on that one) to find something uniquely German and promote that, while rejecting outside cultures, mostly the French one.

I dont know about that. The Prussians deeply hated the French. I'm not sure their was admiration in there at all. Though, I admit, that in Frances glory days it DID have a supreme culture and military. That was another reason for the German Volksguies SP (Neu Leonstein, help me out on that one) to find something uniquely German and promote that, while rejecting outside cultures, mostly the French one.
True, Prussia wanted to be uniquely, well, Prussian. That is why I say grudingly admired.

No, because I have no "switched". My ancestors go back to that point.

And I do take offense when my religious beliefs are questioned.

I don't give a **** what the ****ing logic says. This is an offense to my religious belief. However, to prevent myself from crossing the line into flaming (if I haven't already), I will avoid posting in this thread from this point.

Jesus, what are you, the political correctness poster boy?

I dont know about that. The Prussians deeply hated the French. I'm not sure their was admiration in there at all.
Pre-WWI Prussians were actually pretty sensible people, believe it or not.

Napoleon destroyed Prussia, obviously that was rather unpopular, because it was something of a humiliation. That lead to the real awakening of this popular German romanticism that had been popular with artists and so on.
So yes, the German idea (not the Prussian one) was conceived against France, because France didn't exactly have an interest in the weak little states becoming one big and powerful one.

But Bismarck for example, as the model-Prussian pre-WWI, didn't mind the French. The diplomatic language was French afterall, culture pretty much happened entirely in Paris (where he served as ambassador for some time) and so on.

There are poems and songs from that time that seem to admire what Napoleon did for the French, in the context that they wouldn't mind having that happen to Germany as well.

But check out German Romanticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Romanticism) if you want to understand all that followed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel

The first, original, and truly natural boundaries of states are beyond doubt their internal boundaries. Those who speak the same language are joined to each other by a multitude of invisible bonds by nature herself, long before any human art begins; they understand each other and have the power of continuing to make themselves understood more and more clearly; they belong together and are by nature one and an inseparable whole.

Only when each people, left to itself, develops and forms itself in accordance with its own peculiar quality, and only when in every people each individual develops himself in accordance with that common quality, as well as in accordance with his own peculiar quality-then, and then only, does the manifestation of divinity appear in its true mirror as it ought to be; and only a man who either entirely lacks the notion of the rule of law and divine order, or else is an obdurate enemy thereto, could take upon himself to want to interfere with that law, which is the highest law in the spiritual world!

There are poems and songs from that time that seem to admire what Napoleon did for the French, in the context that they wouldn't mind having that happen to Germany as well.

But check out German Romanticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Romanticism) if you want to understand all that followed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel
Precisely. It wasn't exactly an overt flirtation with French nationhood, but it was a form of silent admiration.

Pre-WWI Prussians were actually pretty sensible people, believe it or not.

Napoleon destroyed Prussia, obviously that was rather unpopular, because it was something of a humiliation. That lead to the real awakening of this popular German romanticism that had been popular with artists and so on.
So yes, the German idea (not the Prussian one) was conceived against France, because France didn't exactly have an interest in the weak little states becoming one big and powerful one.

But Bismarck for example, as the model-Prussian pre-WWI, didn't mind the French. The diplomatic language was French afterall, culture pretty much happened entirely in Paris (where he served as ambassador for some time) and so on.

There are poems and songs from that time that seem to admire what Napoleon did for the French, in the context that they wouldn't mind having that happen to Germany as well.

But check out German Romanticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Romanticism) if you want to understand all that followed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel

Yeah, we are learning about all that in my AP European History right now.

That was the Volksguis right? The grouping of people based on their language. Which in turn later changed to how they look. Which in turn later changed to Hitlers views.

That was the Volksguis right?
To be quite honest...I have no idea what you're talking about. :confused:

"Volks" means "People's"...but I don't know what "guis" is supposed to be.

To be quite honest...I have no idea what you're talking about. :confused:

"Volks" means "People's"...but I don't know what "guis" is supposed to be.

Lol this is embaressing, but since my German is terrible, its hopefully understandable.

I meant Volkisch


*face gets red*

*explodes*

*Probably said before*
Well, why aren't the other major denominations considered a race then?
No.

*Probably said before*
Well, why aren't the other major denominations considered a race then?
No.

Honestly...I'm not really sure what the correct answer is anymore. lol.

To be quite honest...I have no idea what you're talking about. :confused:

"Volks" means "People's"...but I don't know what "guis" is supposed to be.
A bit irrelevant, but didn't Hegel and Kant influence Hitler's line of thinking?

A bit irrelevant, but didn't Hegel and Kant influence Hitler's line of thinking?

Yes...that was what I was trying to say with the Volkisch...only I was retarded and totally slaughtered the word.

I meant Volkisch
Oh, okay.

I don't know how they teach it in English language, but really the word just sorta means "People-ish"...it's an adjective.

But yes, romanticism brought forward this idea of a people being one being, and therefore all of a sudden having a "destiny", having rights, and needs and so on.
It became really popular in the German countries, primarily because there was no single German nation, such that what various local leaders did could often annoy people (and thus be interpreted as being against the people's destiny), but it could also be used to force various German mini-states to work together.

Importantly though, that was an idea of the intellectuals, not of the leadership itself (see the 1848 revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolutions_of_1848_in_the_German_states) for that - a prime example of simple people wanting one German state, and the German kings not being interested). Bismarck for example didn't really believe in that sort of thing, he merely used it in the form of wars against Denmark, Austria and France to get people to support Prussia.
Really, Bismarck wasn't German, he was Prussian, and his allegiance was only to the Prussian Monarchy and State.

Oh, okay.

I don't know how they teach it in English language, but really the word just sorta means "People-ish"...it's an adjective.

But yes, romanticism brought forward this idea of a people being one being, and therefore all of a sudden having a "destiny", having rights, and needs and so on.
It became really popular in the German countries, primarily because there was no single German nation, such that what various local leaders did could often annoy people (and thus be interpreted as being against the people's destiny), but it could also be used to force various German mini-states to work together.

Importantly though, that was an idea of the intellectuals, not of the leadership itself (see the 1848 revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolutions_of_1848_in_the_German_states) for that - a prime example of simple people wanting one German state, and the German kings not being interested). Bismarck for example didn't really believe in that sort of thing, he merely used it in the form of wars against Denmark, Austria and France to get people to support Prussia.
Really, Bismarck wasn't German, he was Prussian, and his allegiance was only to the Prussian Monarchy and State.

Exactly....it wasnt so much a German Unification, as a Prussian mass- annexation.

Really, Bismarck wasn't German, he was Prussian, and his allegiance was only to the Prussian Monarchy and State.
Indeed. The most he'd concede to was Klein Deutschland, despite the Kaiser's obvious ambitions to form Greater Germany into a global empire, complete with colonies and all.

Exactly....it wasnt so much a German Unification, as a Prussian mass- annexation.
Hence Bavarian distaste for Prussia's dominance in the newly formed state.

:sniper:
why ask this question??

Oh, okay.

I don't know how they teach it in English language, but really the word just sorta means "People-ish"...it's an adjective.

They taught it as this fever that swept the German states....particularly in the universities that called for german unity and a unifcation of the German Volk, that is those who speak German or a variation of it. Something along those lines. I wonder if, at this time, Jews were included in this German Volk? I mean after all, they either spoke German or Yiddish both Germanic languages.

Hence Bavarian distaste for Prussia's dominance in the newly formed state.

and there was nothing Bavaria could do about it..because we had the military. :D

They taught it as this fever that swept the German states....particularly in the universities that called for german unity and a unifcation of the German Volk, that is those who speak German or a variation of it. Something along those lines. I wonder if, at this time, Jews were included in this German Volk? I mean after all, they either spoke German or Yiddish both Germanic languages.
Its the Volksgemeinschaft I believe you speak of, the People's Community. I really doubt that it included Jews. The concept excluded anyone it deemed to be of impure germanic stock.

The interesting thing is that Zionism, an idea that first came up in the same sort of time, is also very heavily influenced by Romantic Nationalism.

It's almost as if some Jews, which didn't see themselves as German, applied the same sort of thinking of a "people's destiny" to the Jews.

So..in a sick sort of way, Zionism and Nazism have the same roots.

The interesting thing is that Zionism, an idea that first came up in the same sort of time, is also very heavily influenced by Romantic Nationalism.

It's almost as if some Jews, which didn't see themselves as German, applied the same sort of thinking of a "people's destiny" to the Jews.

So..in a sick sort of way, Zionism and Nazism have the same roots.
Well if a people maintain the view that they are a divinely chosen group, isn't that a necessary precursor to racism? So in that sense it is indeed similar.

Its the Volksgemeinschaft I believe you speak of, the People's Community. I really doubt that it included Jews. The concept excluded anyone it deemed to be of impure germanic stock.

Thats what I figured:(

I knew that it later excluded Jews and other people, but in the begining of this movement the whole unity of this community was based soley on language. European Jewry WOULD, theoretically fit in there.

*Sigh*

The interesting thing is that Zionism, an idea that first came up in the same sort of time, is also very heavily influenced by Romantic Nationalism.

It's almost as if some Jews, which didn't see themselves as German, applied the same sort of thinking of a "people's destiny" to the Jews.

So..in a sick sort of way, Zionism and Nazism have the same roots.

Scary. Wow, though, I had never thought of it this way. Great post, buddy.

Thats what I figured:(

I knew that it later excluded Jews and other people, but in the begging of this movement the whole unity of this community was based soley on language. European Jewry WOULD, theoretically fit in there.

*Sigh*
The Kaiser hated them, as did many common Germans and intellectuals. They did, on the other hand, glorify Greek (and Roman) culture as one of the ultimate culminations of Western civilisation, and seemed somehow to let them penetrate the notion of VGS. Even Hitler adored Greece, stressing that the original Greeks were born of the Aryan race. Weirdly enough, the first Greeks were indeed mostly fair of skin and hair. And even later when other Greek tribes invaded, they almost worshipped blonde hair. The concept also went on to include the germanic people as a whole.

And don't forget Socialist Utopianism in the foundation of Zionism.

Early Zionists were pretty much all Socialists - Israel was meant to be a socialist utopia...something manifested in the Kibbutzim, which were the first communities of Zionists who actually made the leap.

So Zionism is a mix of religion with politics, Marxism and Romantic Nationalism. ;)

Well if a people maintain the view that they are a divinely chosen group, isn't that a necessary precursor to racism? So in that sense it is indeed similar.

I dont think its racism...After all, the Torah states that God asked other people to be his chosen group, they just didnt want to, for whatever reason.

I dont think its racism...After all, the Torah states that God asked other people to be his chosen group, they just didnt want to, for whatever reason.
If someone believes they are superior to all others based on that belief, it is racism. :p

And don't forget Socialist Utopianism in the foundation of Zionism.

Early Zionists were pretty much all Socialists - Israel was meant to be a socialist utopia...something manifested in the Kibbutzim, which were the first communities of Zionists who actually made the leap.

So Zionism is a mix of religion with politics, Marxism and Romantic Nationalism. ;)
How very NSDAP :p

And don't forget Socialist Utopianism in the foundation of Zionism.

Early Zionists were pretty much all Socialists - Israel was meant to be a socialist utopia...something manifested in the Kibbutzim, which were the first communities of Zionists who actually made the leap.

So Zionism is a mix of religion with politics, Marxism and Romantic Nationalism. ;)

You are, again right on. Although let me tell you, I have been to the Kibbutzim and they are one of the strangest places I have seen. They are physically isolated, the people are freaking weird, and they are totalling failing and in need of government support to keep them alive.

You are, again right on. Although let me tell you, I have been to the Kibbutzim and they are one of the strangest places I have seen. They are physically isolated, the people are freaking weird, and they are totalling failing and in need of government support to keep them alive.
Weird in what way? :p Where is Kibbutzim anyway?

The Kaiser hated them, as did many common Germans and intellectuals. They did, on the other hand, glorify Greek (and Roman) culture as one of the ultimate culminations of Western civilisation, and seemed somehow to let them penetrate the notion of VGS. Even Hitler adored Greece, stressing that the original Greeks were born of the Aryan race. Weirdly enough, the first Greeks were indeed mostly fair of skin and hair. And even later when other Greek tribes invaded, they almost worshipped blonde hair. The concept also went on to include the germanic people as a whole.

Yeah...the Roman Empire called the German people the blonde barbarians...MWAHAHAH....They also used the German hair to make wigs back in the empire. Bastards, taking our hair. :headbang:

Yeah...the Roman Empire called the German people the blonde barbarians...MWAHAHAH....They also used the German hair to make wigs back in the empire. Bastards, taking our hair. :headbang:
The Romans eventually interbred with the Germanic tribes in any case. And, in the end, the Roman Empire fell, and who came out on top? The Holy Roman Empire. Which was? Germanic. :p

BTW, I find that weird since many Romans were fair of hair and skin, much like the Greeks of early times (and who to this day still are that way in the northern parts of Greece), would stress the blonde part. They considered all non-Romans barbarians anyway, another Greek tradition they inherited. And although Historians will tell you it didn't strictly mean barbarian in the way we perceive it, it came to have that meaning even in Classical Greece.

Weird in what way? :p Where is Kibbutzim anyway?

They are in isolated parts of Israel, mostly in the north.

The people are just a bunch of quais hippy Jews. They are very communist. One incident sticks out in my mind. We were eating dinner one night there. And this kid was acting up right in front of everybody at the dinner room. He was sreaming and just being a jerk, yet his dad wouldnt do anything because they dont beleive in using discipline. Its just a weird place. You have to go there to understand lol.

If someone believes they are superior to all others based on that belief, it is racism. :p

Eh..I dunno this is sort of different. Because Jews dont beleive it has anything to do with being superior. Its just that they just happend to be the people that themselves adopt this "new God". Like I said before, the hebrews were not the first people God asked to be his people.

Weird in what way? :p Where is Kibbutzim anyway?
Kibbutzim are little townships of Jewish settlers which lived real, working Socialism. There was no money, everyone shared everything, even the kids were raised communally.
It worked really well early on, and Kibbutzim were the primary reason the Jews didn't get their arses kicked in 1948/49, because they genuinely fought and produced for their ideal.
Sadly, people started to want to own stuff as individuals and as Israel became more complex, the government started to move in on the Kibbutzim because they couldn't produce everything they needed themselves.
When right-wing governments came in, the support for the Kibbutzim was greatly cut, and people started to leave in great numbers...today only a few a left, and as AI has seen, they are a mere shadow of their former self, mainly populated by nostalgic old people and young ones that haven't been able to leave yet.

The Romans eventually interbred with the Germanic tribes in any case. And, in the end, the Roman Empire fell, and who came out on top? The Holy Roman Empire. Which was? Germanic. :p

BTW, I find that weird since many Romans were fair of hair and skin, much like the Greeks of early times (and who to this day still are that way in the northern parts of Greece), would stress the blonde part. They considered all non-Romans barbarians anyway, another Greek tradition they inherited. And although Historians will tell you it didn't strictly mean barbarian in the way we perceive it, it came to have that meaning even in Classical Greece.

Whooo go Germanic peoples....

I dunno I once read that the whole blonde thing made them feel and look more youthful, or something like that?

They are in isolated parts of Israel, mostly in the north.

The people are just a bunch of quais hippy Jews. They are very communist. One incident sticks out in my mind. We were eating dinner one night there. And this kid was acting up right in front of everybody at the dinner room. He was sreaming and just being a jerk, yet his dad wouldnt do anything because they dont beleive in using discipline. Its just a weird place. You have to go there to understand lol.
Heh must be all out of place, sort of like the Amish in the USA :p

Whooo go Germanic peoples....

I dunno I once read that the whole blonde thing made them feel and look more youthful, or something like that?
They associated it with their gods of beauty, Venus and Apollo. Both were seen as vigorous, gorgeous and sexual. Greeks had a lot to do with the idea of fair hair and skin in aryanism. :p

Eh..I dunno this is sort of different. Because Jews dont beleive it has anything to do with being superior. Its just that they just happend to be the people that themselves adopt this "new God". Like I said before, the hebrews were not the first people God asked to be his people.
Who were the first then? :confused:

Kibbutzim are little townships of Jewish settlers which lived real, working Socialism. There was no money, everyone shared everything, even the kids were raised communally.
It worked really well early on, and Kibbutzim were the primary reason the Jews didn't get their arses kicked in 1948/49, because they genuinely fought and produced for their ideal.
Sadly, people started to want to own stuff as individuals and as Israel became more complex, the government started to move in on the Kibbutzim because they couldn't produce everything they needed themselves.
When right-wing governments came in, the support for the Kibbutzim was greatly cut, and people started to leave in great numbers...today only a few a left, and as AI has seen, they are a mere shadow of their former self, mainly populated by nostalgic old people and young ones that haven't been able to leave yet.

Yup. You are amazingly well rounded in your geo-political-history, its amazing.

Anyway I'm glad Israel got WAY more right wing. The kibbutzim are (hopefully) dying socialist ideas. Though, admittingly, probably not. :headbang:

Who were the first then? :confused:

dont recall....but its definatly there...I'll look it up only because its you :rolleyes: lol....hold on, bro.

Yup. You are amazingly well rounded in your geo-political-history, its amazing.

Anyway I'm glad Israel got WAY more right wing. The kibbutzim are (hopefully) dying socialist ideas. Though, admittingly, probably not. :headbang:
Well its definitely proof that socialism is not utopian. Were it utopian, people would not regress to older economic/governmental systems. Utopia means no place though, and I guess its a name that goes well with both socialism and the concept itself. Dystopia could be left to Communism.

Well, do you think Jews are a race, or not. discuss, your logical or bigoted reasoning here. :p

Avoiding the entire "No HUman Races" issue.

No Being Jewish is not a race qualifier.

Since one can convert to Judaism---you cant convert to being a Negroid, or Caucasoid(s/p?)---whatever the hell the other ones are.

Being Jewish is a religion---hence when one refers to the Holocaust on the "Jews" it falls in the category of anti-semitism.

Semites are an enthnicity--sometimes incorrectly reffered to as a race.

Jewish is a religion.

Heh must be all out of place, sort of like the Amish in the USA :p

Yeah, I guess that analogy could work. haha..kinda funny actually.

They associated it with their gods of beauty, Venus and Apollo. Both were seen as vigorous, gorgeous and sexual. Greeks had a lot to do with the idea of fair hair and skin in aryanism. :p

Jesus, Hitler basically just picked up where the rest of the world left off, lol.

Well its definitely proof that socialism is not utopian. Were it utopian, people would not regress to older economic/governmental systems. Utopia means no place though, and I guess its a name that goes well with both socialism and the concept itself. Dystopia could be left to Communism.

Yes, even the most socialist of "paradises" would be nothing without capitalism mixed into, plus unique conditions like resources and/or small population.

Scandanavia comes to mind.

Jesus, Hitler basically just picked up where the rest of the world left off, lol.
His ideas are ancient lol. The Greeks idolised fair skin and fair hair, and felt racially superior to those around them, either in an imperalistic sense, or one of pity. The Romans picked up where they left off. Plus the whole idea of Atlantis (look up the Thule Society or the Vril) led Hitler to almost worship the Greeks.

Europa, I couldnt find it and am in no condition to do an extreame search. its 1:00 am, lol. But, I will look tomorrow and post if I find it, in the meantime ask someone Jewish about it who will, hopefully, be a better Jew than I am and know. But I promise, Jews were not the first people God asked.

Yes, even the most socialist of "paradises" would be nothing without capitalism mixed into, plus unique conditions like resources and/or small population.

Scandanavia comes to mind.
Scandinavia is more welfare capitalism than anything else :p A triumph in the name of mixed economies rather than any form of socialism.

Europa, I couldnt find it and am in no condition to do an extreame search. its 1:00 am, lol. But, I will look tomorrow and post if I find it, in the meantime ask someone Jewish about it who will, hopefully, be a better Jew than I am and know. But I promise, Jews were not the first people God asked.
Well if you do find something, telegram me on that NS thingy where your nation is. I'll see what I can find on Google either way.

His ideas are ancient lol. The Greeks idolised fair skin and fair hair, and felt racially superior to those around them, either in an imperalistic sense, or one of pity. The Romans picked up where they left off. Plus the whole idea of Atlantis (look up the Thule Society or the Vril) led Hitler to almost worship the Greeks.

Hah..that whole articule on Thule in Wiki is amazing....So thats why we have a Thule air base!? Crazy. :p