NationStates Jolt Archive

Where do I begin?

Okay, you lot have been on the offensive of 'dangerous' Islamic states with nukes - yet your country itself is on the way to becoming a Christian state with even MORE nukes.

Won't happen. We have this wonderful thing called the Constitution, besides, Bush is out after this term.

You swore blind that there would not be a repeat of the Iraq war in Iran, but now what's happening?

Nothing is happening, nothing will happen. Bush even mentioned that. Personally, even if it's a joint UN venture with every UN nation in it, I would actually be opposed to us going into Iran regardless because our troops have had enough of a work out. Besides, everyone seems to think they don't need America. Prove it.

Every excuse you had for invading Iraq in the first place has turned sour now that you have the oil.

Yeah, cause it's just ROLLING into the country :rolleyes:

You have a president who got a huge percentage of his votes based on his religious policies alone.

And? It's a republic here. The majority spoke, that's what they wanted at the time.

You use religion to slow and even reverse huge advances in human rights and freedoms, and yet you DARE to call yourself the 'land of the free'.

We are the land of the free. What specific instance are you talking about us using religion to back up human rights and freedoms? Please be specific, if not, drop that argument.

You all turned against France simply because they did NOT want to participate in a war which they didn't agree with, which I believe was THEIR choice to make and not yours, their 'freedom' if you will.

I got news for you. There's been anti-France sentiment here for a LOOOONG time. Well before that.

You have a ridiculous reliance on oil and show very little progress in the way of renewable fuels, ignoring the fact that the oil WILL run out.

Our choice. We have enough oil capped under the hills of Kentucky to last us for 500 years at our current rate of consumption even. So yeah, we aren't too terribly worried at this point.

Environmental attitudes are, at best, laughable. Drilling for oil in ALASKA?

Have you SEEN Alaska?? Very big area, very little population. BTW, there is a good amount of oil in Alaska.

You go on and on about supporting the troops in their quest for oil, yet slap yellow ribbons on your SUVs which, as monstrous gas-guzzlers, are part of the reason that they are in the East wasting their lives.

Wasting their lives? Based on who's opinion, yours? As for the SUVs..again, our freedom.

You bully the rest of the world as you try and force them to see things your way.

Like no other country has EVER done that. If you're sitting in England right now, you, of ALL people, should not be talking.

The whole thing about trying to teach Christanity in the Science classroom. Face it, religion is not science. Science involves the search for a non-supernatural explanation for things - God is a contradiction of that.

Let me help you with this. The reasoning behind this is that the schools are NOT supposed to push one belief over another. They ARE, however, pushing athiesm.

You dragged us, Britain, into a war that the vast majority of us didn't want. If I remember correctly, there was huge opposition to it in your country too. Why?

Don't give me that. Your country came on it's own. We didn't threaten to take over your little island if you didn't follow suit. "No" was an option your government had :rolleyes:

You believe that, because something is right for you, it must be made so for everyone, regardless of wat they think.

Uh...no, we don't. Don't judge Americans based on their government. That'd be like me judging you guys by your government.

You have the strongest military. Which you use against anyone who says you are wrong. You have spent a huge amount of money on it and have thus neglected to adress some serious social issues on your own soil, such as inner city education, health benefits... some of the conditions that some of your OWN PEOPLE are living in could be likened to those of the Third World, and yet you are the richest nation out there.

Again, NO country is perfect. Not even the Almighty England. We have a large military, you have pretty little villages and the ability to defend very little, and if something major happened to your country, you'd have to ask us for help. So bully that.

3000 nukes? Are you going to use those? To, say destroy everything? No matter who they're used on, the effects will get back to you and have serious consequences for the country you love so dearly.
If you're not going to use them, why have so many? 3000 is an already intimidating number, but hell, so is 200. If they're to be used as a deterrent, then you won't need all the surplus - to use them would spell disaster for you as well as your enemies.

3000 nukes. You're complaining about 3000 nukes, when those SAME nukes were part of the MAD program that Reagen used against the Soviet Union, and friggin Europe thought it was GREAT then. Make up your mind. Wishy washy people annoy me more than anyone.

A lot of freedom? For who, everyone or just the religious? I've noticed a lot of things that atheists enjoy being taken away because it disagrees with a religion. But if the atheists were to do the same, public outcry! It's sectarianism!

Oh really? What is it that Athiests enjoy that has been taken away?

On the reverse of that, all public displays of religion at Christmas (the very name of which is Christian) aren't allowed in a ridiculous display of political correctness. Yes, it can be celebrated by all. But it's still got Christian (or, before that, pagan) roots. Why forget that in public?

AH, WRONG. It can't be endorsed by the government, or paid for by any government. You can stick a Christmas display at city hall so long as a private organization pays for it. Try again.

Your twisting my words. I never said that Bush 'ordered' their deaths. We got Saddam and should have left, but no, your government insisted on staying and guarding the precious oil! Bush was careless, he should have sent our men home and slaughter yours instead. Your just spitting up lies to try and sound like you know what's going on, the sad truth is, no one knows, we probably will never be told.
And that other guy who's defending Azareth, stay out of this, this has nothing to do with you. :mad:

How dare you attack our country! If I recall, during the cold war you were fighting communism, mainly because you don't like anyone elses ideologies and because the soviet union was taking over more land than your crappy country could ever take. You were scared of communism then and you still scared now. You said that America was so powerful, well why so scared of communism and howcome you never stopped the 9/11 planes. Sad I know, but you could have saved the people's lives in the twin towers if you're SO powerful.
Your country is flawd and weak, England has repelled many attacks all through history and you couldn't stop 2 planes. Terrible.

strange, i was going to say something but i can't seem to figure out what the issue is now. but for starters could we settle down a bit, this is almost a flamewar. Personally I think fire should stay out of politics. :D

How dare you attack our country! If I recall, during the cold war you were fighting communism, mainly because you don't like anyone elses ideologies and because the soviet union was taking over more land than your crappy country could ever take.
being a communist myself, may i point out that the USSR was Stalinist not communist,You said that America was so powerful, well why so scared of communism and howcome you never stopped the 9/11 planes. Sad I know, but you could have saved the people's lives in the twin towers if you're SO powerful.
Your country is flawd and weak, England has repelled many attacks all through history and you couldn't stop 2 planes. Terrible.
That is the funnist thing I've heard this weak. HAHAHA! Not only have you shown complete disregard for American Histroy, British History and common sense but you've also managed to make your self look like a complete fool!

Haven't you noticed how the Europeans with out guns have become so peaceful of late, while those with them (ie: Serbs) engage in genocide?
if anyone thinks that guns are bad read this article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm

Where do I begin? <snip>

As an American... I agree with every point in that post.

The dream of America is the most beautiful expression of human creativity and invention to date.

The reality, on the other hand...

US citizens are granted the rights given only to US citizens, theres nothing wrong with this, so dont spin otherwise please. Terrorists and foreigners dont have the rights of a US citizen so you cant violate rights that never exsisted in the first place can you? I dont have ideals, Im a realist. You are an idealist in that you feel everyone can just get along in peace, doesnt work like that, sorry.
Only cos' of people like you.

um shall I say it or does some one else want to?

we haven't had a war in mainland britain since the early 1800s (and that was mainly when a french army landed in wales got drunk and then were arrested by the local militia).

The last major war in europe was WWII

since then we've had kosavo and I think thats it really except for various risings in soviet territorys.
and the whole, Korea, Vietnam, 1st Gulf war, Iraq thing for America but of course they were just quelling the uprising of commies, and commies have to be "bad" just because they believe in different ideals.

Population below poverty line:
12% (2004 est.)

That's quite a pity for 'the richest country in the world'.:)

Britain shouldn't have had to make our own. British scientists did most of the research involved in making the A bomb, but we gave America the information to help build it faster since they had more resources. The plan was to share the work once it had being completed - but keeping promises to damn dirty foreigners is unamerican, is it not? ;)
Don't forget the NZer Rutherford splitting the atom

i'm an american too, but not that proud of it

:confused:

Then move to Canada!! If theres one thing I hate more than foreigners bashing America is when Americans do it. If you dont like it here, leave its better for everyone.

I do have enough facts here; When Your President (you know that Pr**k) got our troops, it was suprising that American 'friendly fire' killed more than half of those 101 troops killed. Howcome your SAM missiles took out 2 of our helicopters, since when did Iraqi people have helicopters? I suppose that Bush never allowed the media to say this, afterall, he probably censors the media and also fixes elections. I have to say this, but it's idiots like you (Azareth) who vote for the stupidist guy in the world. Did you know there's a book over here with all the stupid quotes Bush has said? Your country is hardly powerful, any country could take you out, Africa even has Nuclear missiles that could blow you up.
So the next time you want to annoy me, make sure YOU can properly back up a decent arguement.

Don't post anything again, your just too dim (like Bush and other Americans like you) to back up an arguement.

The Empire of Extremist Communism.

You must be an extremist communist because what your saying is crazy, if anyone shouldnt post here, its you. Africa beating us in war hahahhaha:rolleyes:

Then move to Canada!! If theres one thing I hate more than foreigners bashing America is when Americans do it. If you dont like it here, leave its better for everyone.

I bet you're one of those people shooting their mouth off about how America is a free country and that nobody should ever infringe upon freedom of speech... as long as nobody contradicts you.

I do have enough facts here; When Your President (you know that Pr**k) got our troops, it was suprising that American 'friendly fire' killed more than half of those 101 troops killed. Howcome your SAM missiles took out 2 of our helicopters, since when did Iraqi people have helicopters? I suppose that Bush never allowed the media to say this, afterall, he probably censors the media and also fixes elections. I have to say this, but it's idiots like you (Azareth) who vote for the stupidist guy in the world. Did you know there's a book over here with all the stupid quotes Bush has said? Your country is hardly powerful, any country could take you out, Africa even has Nuclear missiles that could blow you up.
So the next time you want to annoy me, make sure YOU can properly back up a decent arguement.

Don't post anything again, your just too dim (like Bush and other Americans like you) to back up an arguement.

The Empire of Extremist Communism.

The Iraqi military had helicopters. You know, those things made by their communist friends so that they could shoot up refugee convoys getting the hell outa Iraq.

And, Africa doesn't have nukes. Africa isn't even a nation. One nation on the African continent had nukes a while ago but got rid of them: South Africa. As for the missiles range, well, if China doesn't have missiles that can hit the continental US, then there's no way in hell Africa has missiles that can hit every part of the US.

Logic has officially made you a eunuch.

Only cos' of people like you.
Thats not it all, even if the US pulled its troops out of every country except ours and stopped defending ourselves, they would still be people trying to harm us. Sometimes force is the only way to ensure peace.

I bet you're one of those people shooting their mouth off about how America is a free country and that nobody should ever infringe upon freedom of speech... as long as nobody contradicts you.

Im not saying they shouldnt say it, they every right to. Its just annoying because they bash the very people that sacfriced and died so that they could have those freedoms.

Im not saying they shouldnt say it, they every right to. Its just annoying because they bash the very people that sacfriced and died so that they could have those freedoms.

What good was their "sacrifice" if those freedoms can't be used, then?

AMERICA F*CKIN OWNZ!!!!!! W00T!!!!:mp5:

AMERICA F*CKIN OWNZ!!!!!! W00T!!!!:mp5:
No, America is screwed up. Really.

Im not saying they shouldnt say it, they every right to. Its just annoying because they bash the very people that sacfriced and died so that they could have those freedoms.
Sacrificed and died in Iraq = Free America

The hell?

UN abassodorship, you are the strangest Bush loving left-winger I've ever met.

Right, so what can we do to improve the country? It is young, they have yet to commit all the mistakes older countries in the east have learnt from. Granted, Australia, Canada and Kiwiland are also young, but are also part of the Commonwealth. I think that's helped them (although 'Stralya hasn't been perfect... I'm thinking the white australia policy and the usual oppression of the aborigines).

My suggestions:

A completely new, fully revised constitution.

Free healthcare and education (for everyone).

Take away the rights of the individual states to pass their own laws.

Cut military spending.

Tighter control of companies.

...

To make free healthcare for everyone would pretty much bankrupt most contries, you know that right?

Any way, Neither side is going to win this debate. It's a fricking opinion. Now, if you can prove to me that the econmoy sucks, I'll give ya that.

Also, I am really sick of you arrogant europeans. "America sucks!" is not a way to win an agrument. You should use reason.

And, to the British, I give you the award for best comedy troupe. Monty Python.

Also, I am really sick of you arrogant europeans. "America sucks!" is not a way to win an agrument. You should use reason.
You're pretty new to credit us with a lack of reason, my friend.

When I think of "America", I think of Ben Franklin and his vision. Then I look at the place today, and see nothing like it.
Then I look at American Exceptionalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Exceptionalism), and I get understandably annoyed.

I also found a neat link today. Maybe we won't have to tolerate the Yankees for much longer...all hail to our Chinese Masters!!! :p
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,398844,00.html
(Just ignore the duplicated paragraph on the first page)

Incidentally, since you mention the economy, the US is the country most heavily in debt in the entire world. Your economy collapsed a long time ago, and is being artificially propped up by your allies.

Most heavily in debt? If you want to twist the sheer number out of proportion, then it is, but in actual fact it is not. According to the CIA Factbook, the debt is about 66% of the GDP. Is that high? Yes. Is it the highest? No. Great Britain's debt is more than 3 times its GDP. France's is almost twice. Germany has about 150% in debt. Spain, 125%. Italy's is a little bit over its GDP. If you want to talk about straight out number of times debt higher than GDP, Ireland is an example: 1000% debt compared to its GDP. The list goes on and on, and if you want to look at it, you can look here.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

Put the numbers into a calculator and figure it out. Regardless, your assumptions are most certainly not heavily fact-laden.

To make free healthcare for everyone would pretty much bankrupt most contries, you know that right?


http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10362476&postcount=150

Listen, as an american, I love america. Mostly I love the american dream, but sadly that dream died long ago. What was once the dream to be a home owner have a nice dar, wife, family, and have peace, tolerance, and good will toward all men. But this dream has died and been replaced by blind materialism, ignorance, oil, a lousy education system, a poor economy and a single minded, militaristic leadership. And such is the future of the great country it's citizens call the land of the free. I have observed individuals on these boards defend this nation fiercly, and others oppose it adimently. But the facts show that our education system is in need of desparate repair. Our economy is atrocious. This militaristic right wing leadership is apauling. What America must do in order to meet the expectations it's citizens assume it has already achieved, rebuild education, start more public prodjects to create jobs for american workers, crack down on illigeal immigration, get off foriegn dependence of oil, pull out of Iraq, stop this so-called War on Terror (by attacking we are only uniting them), and expand civil rights to include possesion of drugs in small amounts and prostitution, and reduce such prhibiting laws such as curfews. For too long the american political scape has been plagued with immoral leadership, and rich politicains who forget the laws they pass effect real people. The american people, simply follow blindly because they have not known any better, they accept this substandard leadership as a norm. It's take we americans, take a step foward, into the future rather than reside in the past. I say we the people can make this nation what it once was, but we need the voters. The people can help through social programs and political advertising to make people aware of the issues and how they can be solved. It has too long been the sad truth that most americans vote on their party status than by the canidates themselves.

America can turn itself around, it's simply a question if will we?

What good was their "sacrifice" if those freedoms can't be used, then?
You put sacrifice in quotes, are you suggesting that they arent sacrificing when they die for or serve their country?

Sacrificed and died in Iraq = Free America

The hell?

UN abassodorship, you are the strangest Bush loving left-winger I've ever met.

I wouldnt say I love Bush, I happen to disagree with him on many things, I just happen to agree that we need to protect America at any costs.

You put sacrifice in quotes, are you suggesting that they arent sacrificing when they die for or serve their country?
Germans are no longer up for that shit. They've seen and been taught what happens if you follow this ideology of "our country" and "sacrifice". See, I can't do it either - it's like impossible for me not to be sarcastic about it.

You sacrifice your life in order to get the chance to make others sacrifice theirs. That's the gist of it.

Or, to put it in Einstein's words:
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

You put sacrifice in quotes, are you suggesting that they arent sacrificing when they die for or serve their country?

I notice you didn't answer the question...
As to their supposed martyrdom, it's a question of perception.

Germans are no longer up for that shit. They've seen and been taught what happens if you follow this ideology of "our country" and "sacrifice". See, I can't do it either - it's like impossible for me not to be sarcastic about it.

You sacrifice your life in order to get the chance to make others sacrifice theirs. That's the gist of it.

Or, to put it in Einstein's words:

I always liked Albert Einstein, and now I'm reminded why. I only wish his genius would have been able to foresee the effects some of his work eventually had :(

I wouldnt say I love Bush, I happen to disagree with him on many things, I just happen to agree that we need to protect America at any costs.

See, that's where it gets dangerous. Had you said "the American citizens"I would have agreed with you. But "protecting America" is an attitude that lends itself to manipulation and indoctrination.

See, that's where it gets dangerous. Had you said "the American citizens"I would have agreed with you. But "protecting America" is an attitude that lends itself to manipulation and indoctrination.

I think in order to think this way you have to think of where the world would be "without" America. When one says "protecting America" they are not only thinking of defending the physical country of the US, or its citizens and physical interests, but an entire way of being. In the same manner that "Rome" wasnt just a nationstate, or "Germany" just a country, but an ideal. Make sense? Thus, when someone says "protecting America" they are talking about much more, which is not manipulation, merely fact. We are still a hegemony after all.

take a step foward, into the future rather than reside in the past. I say we the people can make this nation what it once was, but we need the voters.

:confused:

*Scratches head*....Well atleast you were right about the education system being dog shit. :p

I think in order to think this way you have to think of where the world would be "without" America. When one says "protecting America" they are not only thinking of defending the physical country of the US, or its citizens and physical interests, but an entire way of being. In the same manner that "Rome" wasnt just a nationstate, or "Germany" just a country, but an ideal. Make sense? Thus, when someone says "protecting America" they are talking about much more, which is not manipulation, merely fact. We are still a hegemony after all.
well put

I always liked Albert Einstein, and now I'm reminded why. I only wish his genius would have been able to foresee the effects some of his work eventually had :(
Smart guy, but on this, he is dead wrong

I notice you didn't answer the question...
As to their supposed martyrdom, it's a question of perception.
I said b4 Im not saying they shouldnt have that right, it just pisses me off when people bad mouth the very people that allow them to do so. As to the other thing you said, its horrible, I didnt even want to validate it with a response but its wrong.

When one says "protecting America" they are not only thinking of defending the physical country of the US, or its citizens and physical interests, but an entire way of being.
The problem with this is that modern Americans use a concept they have long since rejected to justify their nationalism. They talk about America as if it were particularly free, particularly tolerant or particularly democratic.
Indeed, you will find many other countries that do very well in those criteria.

Had the US stayed the way it was supposed to be, as in the vision of Franklin & Co., there would be a point to it. As it is however, the US is not what you maintain it represents, it is not special, and IMHO it is not particularly deserving right now of favourable feelings.

Listen, as an american, I love america. Mostly I love the american dream, but sadly that dream died long ago. What was once the dream to be a home owner have a nice dar, wife, family, and have peace, tolerance, and good will toward all men. But this dream has died and been replaced by blind materialism, ignorance, oil, a lousy education system, a poor economy and a single minded, militaristic leadership. And such is the future of the great country it's citizens call the land of the free. I have observed individuals on these boards defend this nation fiercly, and others oppose it adimently. But the facts show that our education system is in need of desparate repair. Our economy is atrocious. This militaristic right wing leadership is apauling. What America must do in order to meet the expectations it's citizens assume it has already achieved, rebuild education, start more public prodjects to create jobs for american workers, crack down on illigeal immigration, get off foriegn dependence of oil, pull out of Iraq, stop this so-called War on Terror (by attacking we are only uniting them), and expand civil rights to include possesion of drugs in small amounts and prostitution, and reduce such prhibiting laws such as curfews. For too long the american political scape has been plagued with immoral leadership, and rich politicains who forget the laws they pass effect real people. The american people, simply follow blindly because they have not known any better, they accept this substandard leadership as a norm. It's take we americans, take a step foward, into the future rather than reside in the past. I say we the people can make this nation what it once was, but we need the voters. The people can help through social programs and political advertising to make people aware of the issues and how they can be solved. It has too long been the sad truth that most americans vote on their party status than by the canidates themselves.

America can turn itself around, it's simply a question if will we?

I like you :)

Smart guy, but on this, he is dead wrong

I think he's spot on.

I said b4 Im not saying they shouldnt have that right, it just pisses me off when people bad mouth the very people that allow them to do so. As to the other thing you said, its horrible, I didnt even want to validate it with a response but its wrong.

Do you extend the same holiness to dead German soldiers durring WWII? Or Soviet soldiers durring the reign of the Soviet Union?

The problem with this is that modern Americans use a concept they have long since rejected to justify their nationalism. They talk about America as if it were particularly free, particularly tolerant or particularly democratic.
Indeed, you will find many other countries that do very well in those criteria.

Had the US stayed the way it was supposed to be, as in the vision of Franklin & Co., there would be a point to it. As it is however, the US is not what you maintain it represents, it is not special, and IMHO it is not particularly deserving right now of favourable feelings.

Exactly. It ain't 1776, we ain't the only nationstate to give people the right to vote anymore, in fact we've fallen behind pretty much the rest of the developed world in terms of freedom and shit.

I felt like making a post about all the good America does.

Dammit, this isn't starting out well.

We have the biggest and best economy with by far the biggest GDP of any country.

So? Means shit to me. Also, the only way me get that way is on a pile of corpses.

We the strongest military and we spend 400 billion dollars a year on it(I think it should be more) and have over 3,000 nukes(should be more).

God I hope you're being sarcastic. Those are both negetives, not "good things the US does." Spend more money on the military? Already more then half of the money the government pilfers from my pay goes to that bullshit. Not only could we have just as effective and army with a much much lower budget, the money isn't going where it should. Add to that the fact that the US military is responcible for the most innocent deaths and is the biggest mass murdering organization in history.

And why the fuck do we need more nukes? Waste more money?

It was General, and latter president Dwight D. Eisenhower that said "
# Who said Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed; those who are cold and are not clothed."

We also have alot of freedom and a great quality of life. Our entertainment is the best in world and alot of people want to be like us. God bless America!

We have alot less freedom then most of the developed world. Millions of Americans have a shitty quality of life. We're the richest country on earth and people still die starving on the streets, or suffer from easily preventible desiese. Our entertainment makes me sick, and the only way people want to be like us (which almost no one does nowadays) is they want to have lots of money and boss everyone around and be able to get whatever they want by killing people, like the US does.

Dammit, this isn't starting out well.



So? Means shit to me. Also, the only way me get that way is on a pile of corpses.



God I hope you're being sarcastic. Those are both negetives, not "good things the US does." Spend more money on the military? Already more then half of the money the government pilfers from my pay goes to that bullshit. Not only could we have just as effective and army with a much much lower budget, the money isn't going where it should. Add to that the fact that the US military is responcible for the most innocent deaths and is the biggest mass murdering organization in history.

And why the fuck do we need more nukes? Waste more money?

It was General, and latter president Dwight D. Eisenhower that said "
# Who said Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed; those who are cold and are not clothed."



We have alot less freedom then most of the developed world. Millions of Americans have a shitty quality of life. We're the richest country on earth and people still die starving on the streets, or suffer from easily preventible desiese. Our entertainment makes me sick, and the only way people want to be like us (which almost no one does nowadays) is they want to have lots of money and boss everyone around and be able to get whatever they want by killing people, like the US does.

I said it before and I will say it again. The US must keep its status at any costs, and no matter how many lives. You dont get to be #1 without a little blood on your hands, you need to accept that. If the Government wasnt taxing you to protect you, theres a good chance you'd be dead. If you hate it here so much why dont you leave? Its probably because its your culture and you have a comfortable life, never having to fight for the freedoms you have. You have no idea what people you defend you have to go through so you can have your freedom.

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than hisown personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stuart Mill

I like you :)

Thank You.

I said it before and I will say it again. The US must keep its status at any costs, and no matter how many lives. You dont get to be #1 without a little blood on your hands, you need to accept that. If the Government wasnt taxing you to protect you, theres a good chance you'd be dead. If you hate it here so much why dont you leave? Its probably because its your culture and you have a comfortable life, never having to fight for the freedoms you have. You have no idea what people you defend you have to go through so you can have your freedom.

How about rather than keeping our status we strive for better. Doesn't this sound like a good idea? And how about the right stops using militarization as it's means of doing this, for once. I should probably note that (in response to a specific sentence in your post) that taxes, while they do go to the military, they also support our social programs. Social programs which are currently underfunded because of this militarization, or at least increased focus on the military. Furthermore social progression, or what you reffer to as being #1, is not only done thru military means. It is done thru politics and diplomatic missions, far more effectivly. For example, there has been west in the middle east for years. Both sides taking bold stances on opposing sides, while pointing their guns at each others throats, without being rational. And when they try to resolve differences one says Death to Isreal, the other disagrees and they simply continue fighting w/o and solution in the near future. Yet neither of these sides has made any progress. So, doesn't stand to reason that an alternative, say morderated diplomatic missions (solving our differences) might work better than shooting until ones dead. Let this example in our modern day, be a reminder that the world has changed since the days of ancient Rome. Things have changed since the days of the British Empire. In this modern political climate, we can no longer rely on our muscle. We must learn to take peaceful well-reasoned actions. Now don't get me wrong I realize what our solidgers go thru to defend our freedom. And the problem at hand is that members of the far-right go to war and then use this as a political platform, when it is their falt we went to war (after blowing off the U.N.). Let me remind you it is the right that has put ur service men and women in those situations where they face danger, and possible death. We must use diplomatic measures first, we owe it to those service men and women. We owe it to the smaller nations who rely on diplomats to prevent war. We owe it to the people of the United States of America! But neither do we forget that it is patriots like you who make and continue to make America what it has become and what it will be. Nor do we foget that it is due to the service men and women that America has such security. Such a level of security that it is a huge deal, one worthey of war, when a terrorist attack occurs. This is such a level of security that other nations, who have attacks on them everyday, do not enjoy. So don't we owe it to you the patriots, to the men and women who make it possible for us to enjoy our freedoms, to not put you in danger. Too often, to the folks in the capital forget that war affects real people. I mean, isn't something that we can elect a president who believes so strongly in a war, that he is willing to put thousands of our troops in mortal danger, but not enough to share the danger. So in conclusion...

"War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always an evil, never a good. We will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other's children." - Former President of the United States of America Jimmy Carter

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than hisown personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stuart Mill

He is making a wrong assumption there. He is portraying people who are not ready to fight and kill for outdated ideals as selfish, whereas it actually is the other way around.
At the moment, the USA (or rather, the government of the US) is egocentrically and selfishly stomping over international law, human rights and over its own allies in order to maintain its blown-up selfimage. It's not protecting its citizens, it is sending them deliberately into harm's way, i.e. the war in Iraq. This is not brave or patriotic in any way, it's a most cowardly way to ensure hegemony.

Killing isn't brave. And killing for ideals is a very stupid thing to do indeed, and incidentally just what terrorists all over the planet are doing.
Europeans are not more concerned about their personal safety than their freedom, as can well be seen by the reactions to the Madrid and London bombings, as well as the bombings in Djerba. It's just that they don't seem to lose their heads as easily and slash out at whoever might be suspected without proof, nor are they ready to give up any of their freedoms for the false feeling of safety by a big-brother-is-watching-you state. They did that before, and I'm glad to see they learned their lesson well.
They are not scared out of their heads at the thought of being killed for being free. But they do consider it immoral to kill in all circumstances.

I said b4 Im not saying they shouldnt have that right, it just pisses me off when people bad mouth the very people that allow them to do so. As to the other thing you said, its horrible, I didnt even want to validate it with a response but its wrong.

What other thing?

I think in order to think this way you have to think of where the world would be "without" America. When one says "protecting America" they are not only thinking of defending the physical country of the US, or its citizens and physical interests, but an entire way of being. In the same manner that "Rome" wasnt just a nationstate, or "Germany" just a country, but an ideal. Make sense? Thus, when someone says "protecting America" they are talking about much more, which is not manipulation, merely fact. We are still a hegemony after all.

In that case, you are talking about culture. Now, while I have a very hard time indeed imagining the American culture being threatened (it still seems to export exeedingly well), the problem here is that you can't defend culture with legislation or even weapons. Culture isn't static, but a dynamical process. As soon as it becomes necessary to protect it, it's already dead.

You might also be talking about America's business interests, which I think is the worst excuse for a war ever. Killing others to make money? Indeed a brave and laudable thing to do :rolleyes:

I felt like making a post about all the good America does........


Well? It seems that all you wrote was about what America HAS not what it DOES.

America's okay. It's a nice enough place to live but it has its problems and I can't stand it when people act as though it's Heaven on Earth.

I felt like making a post about all the good America does.

Well, now this thread is over a week old and you still haven't said anything I would see as "good" about America. I think are quite a few things one could like about America. But the things you mentioned just make me sorry for you and the people who have to live on the same continent with you.

I still think that you must be either a troll or a puppet...perhaps a troll-puppet... But with all respect for an individual point of view on the world or pure stupidity: You can't be serious!

Of course it's fine to be proud of ones homeland, but at least be proud for some sane reasons. For me as a german being overly patriotic was always something to be sceptic about. That's just the way you get when you grow up always being told how bad germany has been and how carefull you have to be not to let it happen again. But in the long run I think it served most of us germans good to get a little distance. Course blind patriots just make me sick.

Of course it's fine to be proud of ones homeland, but at least be proud for some sane reasons. For me as a german being overly patriotic was always something to be sceptic about. That's just the way you get when you grow up always being told how bad germany has been and how carefull you have to be not to let it happen again. But in the long run I think it served most of us germans good to get a little distance. Course blind patriots just make me sick.
Well said. I'm proud to be English, I'm also proud to be a Yorkshireman and a Dalesman, I cheer when we win in sport, I'm upset when we lose. But I don't see my country/County/village as the greatest place on earth and I don't see everyone else as inferior. Thats where patriotism becomes nationalism and thats a bad thing-that leads to war, death and suffering.

I hope you'll excuse me for saying this, but Germany has shown us what Nationalism can create-the largest and most terrable war the world has ever seen.

How can anything be good about a country which allows its citizens to own guns. :sniper:

UN ambassadorship, you really should lighten up and listen to other arguements, not just go 'oh look, USA is so good, and everyone is so bad', because it makes you sound like the most famous America of all, Homer Simpson.

Cabra West and Neu Leonstein, I like you guys :)

Well? It seems that all you wrote was about what America HAS not what it DOES.

Yay, intelligence.

I said b4 Im not saying they shouldnt have that right, it just pisses me off when people bad mouth the very people that allow them to do so. As to the other thing you said, its horrible, I didnt even want to validate it with a response but its wrong.

No, it's not wrong. It Is a question of perception and you should learn to live with it. Soldiers are not good people. Soldiers are not the reason why I am free. Soldiers will be the reason why I am not.

This threads still going on :eek:

Ah well, i reckon if you made a lil nip 'n' tuck, such as lose the right to guns, go for a walk every so often, cut down on the doughnuts etc

:D Post moved

The United States is the best place in the world to live

if you want to be shot, mugged, pay over the odds for healthcare, have no social security, have no job security, be treated as a second class citizen if you DARE not believe in God, live in constant fear of terrorist attack and have to pay for a frankly average education.

How does welfare = socialism? Is Britain a socialist nation?

Mind you, you Yanks regard the Democrats as left wing, and they would be regarded in any other western nation as distinctly right wing / liberal.

Well, now this thread is over a week old and you still haven't said anything I would see as "good" about America. I think are quite a few things one could like about America. But the things you mentioned just make me sorry for you and the people who have to live on the same continent with you.

I still think that you must be either a troll or a puppet...perhaps a troll-puppet... But with all respect for an individual point of view on the world or pure stupidity: You can't be serious!

Of course it's fine to be proud of ones homeland, but at least be proud for some sane reasons. For me as a german being overly patriotic was always something to be sceptic about. That's just the way you get when you grow up always being told how bad germany has been and how carefull you have to be not to let it happen again. But in the long run I think it served most of us germans good to get a little distance. Course blind patriots just make me sick.

I knew i liked you for some reason.

and to almost everything that UN ambassadorship said.

The message america was using is dead and has been replaced with something sinister. I will not blindly follow my fellow countrymen and shed blood for a reason that i don't believe in. the message may seem good at first glance, but the true message is not in the words, it's the actions our leaders are taking that you have to watch for.

“Weapons of Mass Destruction, Weapons of Mass Destruction, Weapons of Mass Destruction”
we need to invade iraq because saddam has them. We get there, and no WMDs. At the same time North Korea was restarting it’s nuclear weapons program, and we totally ignored them. Why? We invade iraq for the same reason, but they didn’t have any. WTF?

There must be a lot of children, or super naive people in this forum.

First and foremost, every country in the world that remains a country for any amount of time must make hard decisions, and be prepared to defend themselves from both internal threats, as well as external threats. They must use every method at their disposal without consideration of right or wrong, because the people they are defending their soverenty as a nation, and indeed the very population from will do anything -- anything to win.

If you think that only the United States does "end justifies the means" based decision making (situational ethics), you are out of your mind.

Read Machiavelli's "The Prince"

Second

War is inevitable. Period. The minute you renounce war as a possiblility, evil/greedy men from all over the world will be at your doorstep, and they will take what you have (and that includes your life and the lives of your families) Don't believe me? Stand over a mass grave in Iraq, or Yugoslavia, or Cambodia, or Somolia, or even at a WWII era concentration camp, and let the voices of the dead whisper in your ear. Remember, you are one bullet from being in a hole just like them. Only our commitment to make war upon anyone who will hurt us and the ability to back it up with clearly superior firepower prevents them from being here right this minute.

Third

Who gives a rat's burning behind if the rest of the world likes or dislikes the U.S. Of course nobody is going to like us...we are the guys they talk about when they talk about the golden rule "he who has the gold, makes the rules". If they can convince us that we are wrong, and that we should hand over our power, they would love that, ya know? Who wouldn't? The question is, as United States citizens, are we stupid enough to hand over our winning poker hand because we feel sorry for they guy from who we are fixing to take his money from? If you say, or even think yes to that question, you need to have your name on a list to prevent you from ever being considered as an elected official, (not to mention the fact that you should swear off gambling)

Four

Healthcare:

It is expensive. Face it. Coming up with new drugs, developing them, making them safe, it is expensive. Very expensive. The fact of the matter is, countries with socialized health care do not pay for the development of new drugs/proceedures, we do. Everyone else suckles off of our tit (the United States) and we provide the world with the technology and funding to make it happen. It sucks to be the best. If you don't want to be in a country where the best live and thrive, you should move somewhere else where they like to give out handouts and support a welfare/socialist state (but also wait like 6-10 months for a basic doctors appointment).


The United States is the best place in the world to live if you are a winner. You can accomplish anything, and live like a king. Okay, so it is not so great to live here if you are a loser, but then, that is why they make airplane tickets, isn't it?

Deja vu

Oh, for all you Americans, thats French, the country just below England on the map, which is due right of America as you look at a map? You know what a map is?

Here you go, heres a fact. 80% of Americans find out about other countries from celebrities. Enough said.

um, just wondering what's with that machiavelli's the prince stuff? wasn't that whole thing just posted a day or so ago?


----edit

or am i just going insane? i can't really tell anymore.

----edit again

when you say tha's french, do you mean the prince? because i thought it was Italian? however, i do know very little of the renaissance

I just find it ironic how the author of this thread's name (UN Ambassadorship) is being used with the claims of being an American supporting increased weapon stockpiles.

As an American myself, I can honestly say that I've rarely heard people proclaiming joy over the possession of destructive weapons, from either conservatives or liberals. Rather, I find more often a call for the end to the unnecessary war in Iraq, and withdrawal of our troops. Don't get me wrong, I support our troops, I just don't support that war.

I find it depressing that quite a few people around me are not cognizant of the way things really are in the world and the effects they produce. Yeah, America offers things that aren't really found in other nations, but that doesn't make it the best nation. For now, we are considered a primary (not absolute) force in world relations.

An interesting thought I've been mulling over lately has been this: What if the United States had not been part of World War II? Let's assume for sake of the argument, that the war was still won by the Allies. Would America have become the superpower that it is now? Would that have improved or degraded the world-view of the nation as a whole?

Now I know that there's cause and effect, and all that, but in this semi-controlled chronology of events, would things have been much different had a single significant event never occurred?

I just find it ironic how the author of this thread's name (UN Ambassadorship) is being used with the claims of being an American supporting increased weapon stockpiles.

I forgot about that. that is pretty funny.


As an American myself, I can honestly say that I've rarely heard people proclaiming joy over the possession of destructive weapons, from either conservatives or liberals. Rather, I find more often a call for the end to the unnecessary war in Iraq, and withdrawal of our troops. Don't get me wrong, I support our troops, I just don't support that war.

Same here


I find it depressing that quite a few people around me are not cognizant of the way things really are in the world and the effects they produce. Yeah, America offers things that aren't really found in other nations, but that doesn't make it the best nation. For now, we are considered a primary (not absolute) force in world relations.

i'm in total agreement wit you so far


An interesting thought I've been mulling over lately has been this: What if the United States had not been part of World War II? Let's assume for sake of the argument, that the war was still won by the Allies. Would America have become the superpower that it is now? Would that have improved or degraded the world-view of the nation as a whole?

i think we would still be a 3rd world nation. the only reason we became a powerhouse was because we needed to create the necessary infrastructure to wage war across an ocean with a powerful (i mean intelligent, resourceful, and technologically advanced) opponent/s.


Now I know that there's cause and effect, and all that, but in this semi-controlled chronology of events, would things have been much different had a single significant event never occurred?

i think so, very much so as a matter of fact.

it's nice to meet a fellow american that isn't a blind fanatic, and is also intelligent.

I don't know about being a third world country. I would think second world would be more fitting, considering the large size of the nation, the infrastructure in place prior to WWII. In the end, I think that although the United States would've remained out of the war, it would have been able to slowly (if not a bit faster than that) regenerate a working economy and such. WWII was in actuality, a catalyst for such.


I forgot to state clearly that the means for such an economy boost was already there. Rather, a purpose was needed to become the catalyst, hence WWII. Thusly, over a longer period of time, it would have happened on a less dramatic scale.

i like that sharp wit you have there.:cool:

There must be a lot of children, or super naive people in this forum.

First and foremost, every country in the world that remains a country for any amount of time must make hard decisions, and be prepared to defend themselves from both internal threats, as well as external threats. They must use every method at their disposal without consideration of right or wrong, because the people they are defending their soverenty as a nation, and indeed the very population from will do anything -- anything to win.

If you think that only the United States does "end justifies the means" based decision making (situational ethics), you are out of your mind.

Read Machiavelli's "The Prince"

It's not, and nobody said it was. Japan is circumventing international law by whaling again, France drew scorn and boycotts when testing nuclear weapons on Muroroa, Russia is trying to maitain its influence on Checnia, it's a long list. They all put their nations' interests before that of the international community or mankind on the whole. The big difference is that they take the criticism, and don't expect other nations to support their nationalism or support their interests.
And the level of criticism you recieve simply mirrors the level to which you influence the lifes of others through your actions.


Second

War is inevitable. Period. The minute you renounce war as a possiblility, evil/greedy men from all over the world will be at your doorstep, and they will take what you have (and that includes your life and the lives of your families) Don't believe me? Stand over a mass grave in Iraq, or Yugoslavia, or Cambodia, or Somolia, or even at a WWII era concentration camp, and let the voices of the dead whisper in your ear. Remember, you are one bullet from being in a hole just like them. Only our commitment to make war upon anyone who will hurt us and the ability to back it up with clearly superior firepower prevents them from being here right this minute.


"Inevitable" and "persued" or "actively sought" are two very different things. It will not have escaped your attention that most countries on the planet actively supported the war on Afghanistan, for the very simple reason that it was a justified war, one that served a purpose other than its own. The war on Iraq serves no such purpose, don't ask the international community to support you in something as pointless and cruel as an unjustified war.


Third

Who gives a rat's burning behind if the rest of the world likes or dislikes the U.S. Of course nobody is going to like us...we are the guys they talk about when they talk about the golden rule "he who has the gold, makes the rules". If they can convince us that we are wrong, and that we should hand over our power, they would love that, ya know? Who wouldn't? The question is, as United States citizens, are we stupid enough to hand over our winning poker hand because we feel sorry for they guy from who we are fixing to take his money from? If you say, or even think yes to that question, you need to have your name on a list to prevent you from ever being considered as an elected official, (not to mention the fact that you should swear off gambling)

Keep the power. But with power comes responsibility. You can't have all the money and stand in the spotlight without your dirty secrets being the talk of the day. Ask any celebrity.


Four

Healthcare:

It is expensive. Face it. Coming up with new drugs, developing them, making them safe, it is expensive. Very expensive. The fact of the matter is, countries with socialized health care do not pay for the development of new drugs/proceedures, we do. Everyone else suckles off of our tit (the United States) and we provide the world with the technology and funding to make it happen. It sucks to be the best. If you don't want to be in a country where the best live and thrive, you should move somewhere else where they like to give out handouts and support a welfare/socialist state (but also wait like 6-10 months for a basic doctors appointment).

Or else you could move to Europe...


The United States is the best place in the world to live if you are a winner. You can accomplish anything, and live like a king. Okay, so it is not so great to live here if you are a loser, but then, that is why they make airplane tickets, isn't it?

Somehow, I suddenly feel that it must be good to be a loser...

Ah hell...I accidently deleted my second post here while making an edit to it...

Crap.

that's happened to me once, however, i was up all night, and it was 9am at the time.

Keep the power. But with power comes responsibility. You can't have all the money and stand in the spotlight without your dirty secrets being the talk of the day. Ask any celebrity.


Spiderman's uncle must've had one of those fatherly chats with Machiavelli! *shock*

Lol

It's not, and nobody said it was. Japan is circumventing international law by whaling again, France drew scorn and boycotts when testing nuclear weapons on Muroroa, Russia is trying to maitain its influence on Checnia, it's a long list. They all put their nations' interests before that of the international community or mankind on the whole. The big difference is that they take the criticism, and don't expect other nations to support their nationalism or support their interests.
And the level of criticism you recieve simply mirrors the level to which you influence the lifes of others through your actions.



"Inevitable" and "persued" or "actively sought" are two very different things. It will not have escaped your attention that most countries on the planet actively supported the war on Afghanistan, for the very simple reason that it was a justified war, one that served a purpose other than its own. The war on Iraq serves no such purpose, don't ask the international community to support you in something as pointless and cruel as an unjustified war.



Keep the power. But with power comes responsibility. You can't have all the money and stand in the spotlight without your dirty secrets being the talk of the day. Ask any celebrity.



Or else you could move to Europe...



Somehow, I suddenly feel that it must be good to be a loser...



Understand, I do not think that the U.S. is necessarily any better than any other place on the planet. I just read all the people who say that it has become this huge boil upon the face of the planet, and I am in disagreement with that. What the United States is doing now is a moment in history, and I am certain that the Iraqi war will conclude, as like everything else, it, too will pass. It is not unlike any other unpopular action that any other nation has performed, and/or will perform again in the future.

I think that after Afghanistan, there were a great many people in the United States that were still hungry for revenge, and Afghanistan was too easy. We wanted more. Iraq is a consequence. Was it a bad decision? Without a doubt. Was it popular, if not demanded by the American People when it started? Again, absolutely. But keep in mind, we are in the middle of it now, and we have to finish what we started. We can't just say "oops, so sorry. No hard feelings, huh?" and walk away - that would be horribly irresponsible of us (even though that is what so many idiots would want us to do). We must finish what we started, even if it is hard, even if it is unpopular. If everyone would just accept this, and quit fingerpointing and bellyaching, and lets just get this one behind us, we can go back to being a good and happy world, and start worrying about the real problems that are coming up to bat -- Iran, China, and North Korea....

Understand, I do not think that the U.S. is necessarily any better than any other place on the planet. I just read all the people who say that it has become this huge boil upon the face of the planet, and I am in disagreement with that. What the United States is doing now is a moment in history, and I am certain that the Iraqi war will conclude, as like everything else, it, too will pass. It is not unlike any other unpopular action that any other nation has performed, and/or will perform again in the future.

I think that after Afghanistan, there were a great many people in the United States that were still hungry for revenge, and Afghanistan was too easy. We wanted more. Iraq is a consequence. Was it a bad decision? Without a doubt. Was it popular, if not demanded by the American People when it started? Again, absolutely. But keep in mind, we are in the middle of it now, and we have to finish what we started. We can't just say "oops, so sorry. No hard feelings, huh?" and walk away - that would be horribly irresponsible of us (even though that is what so many idiots would want us to do). We must finish what we started, even if it is hard, even if it is unpopular. If everyone would just accept this, and quit fingerpointing and bellyaching, and lets just get this one behind us, we can go back to being a good and happy world, and start worrying about the real problems that are coming up to bat -- Iran, China, and North Korea....

:fluffle:
No, honestly, :fluffle:
You just restored part of my faith in your country.

:fluffle:
No, honestly, :fluffle:
You just restored part of my faith in your country.

I really hope so, and I hope that once this is done, we can fall back into a global community, and learn to not be "the big bully" of the world. With the internet, it really has become a small world, one where every individual has a voice that can be heard. You know, it really is not a good feeling to have so many against your country, a country that I love. Truly now, I want Iraq to go away as bad as anybody else. It was a bad decision. It was wrong. But it is done. I just want to clean it up, and maintain some dignity while doing so.

Let's get one thing clear, though:

I would rather be remembered as the guys who made a bad decision, but had the courage and wherewithall to stick it through to the end, much more than the guys who made a bad decision, figured out that it was tough, and probably the wrong thing to have done in the first place, and then folded up and quit, leaving a country, and indeed a whole region destabilized.

What other thing?
"As to their supposed martyrdom, it's a question of perception."

America sucks.

"As to their supposed martyrdom, it's a question of perception."

So me saying that any sacrifice depends on viewpoint is a moral problem for you?

Cabra West and Neu Leonstein, I like you guys :)







No, it's not wrong. It Is a question of perception and you should learn to live with it. Soldiers are not good people. Soldiers are not the reason why I am free. Soldiers will be the reason why I am not.
You arent serious right? Soldiers are some of the best people in world(I come from a military family, and may join) Soldiers ARE the reason your free. Soldiers ARE the reason you can sit there comfortability in your air conditioned house saying how the people you defend your freedom are evil, and yet make excuse for people who fly planes into buildings killingthousands of people. I wish I could make this post stronger, but what I really want to say to you, I cant.

-snip-

I think that after Afghanistan, there were a great many people in the United States that were still hungry for revenge, and Afghanistan was too easy.
-snip-


After Afghanistan? AFTER AFGHANISTAN???

What after??? The place is still a fucking war zone!!!

If that was easy I should hate to see difficult. You can't just forget about them now.

You arent serious right? Soldiers are some of the best people in world(I come from a military family, and may join) Soldiers ARE the reason your free. Soldiers ARE the reason you can sit there comfortability in your air conditioned house saying how the people you defend your freedom are evil, and yet make excuse for people who fly planes into buildings killingthousands of people. I wish I could make this post stronger, but what I really want to say to you, I cant.

Well.... I come from a small town in Germany with a large US army base. And no, actually, soldiers were always far from being the "best people in the world". Generally speaking, they make a living killing people. Not good in my book.

I felt like making a post about all the good America does. We have the biggest and best economy with by far the biggest GDP of any country. We the strongest military and we spend 400 billion dollars a year on it(I think it should be more) and have over 3,000 nukes(should be more). We also have alot of freedom and a great quality of life. Our entertainment is the best in world and alot of people want to be like us. God bless America!

Please tell me this is all a sarcastic joke.

So me saying that any sacrifice depends on viewpoint is a moral problem for you?

Absolutly, How someone can question the sacrifice made by those who serve is something I will never understand. Maybe its because you Europeans have no sense of honor or duty to your countries. You just want to drink beer, watch soccer, and work 3 hours week. Sitting back, relaxing have no problem disgracing people who stand for something. maybe Im wrong, but thats I what Im seeing.

There must be a lot of children, or super naive people in this forum.

First and foremost, every country in the world that remains a country for any amount of time must make hard decisions, and be prepared to defend themselves from both internal threats, as well as external threats. They must use every method at their disposal without consideration of right or wrong, because the people they are defending their soverenty as a nation, and indeed the very population from will do anything -- anything to win.

If you think that only the United States does "end justifies the means" based decision making (situational ethics), you are out of your mind.

Read Machiavelli's "The Prince"

Second

War is inevitable. Period. The minute you renounce war as a possiblility, evil/greedy men from all over the world will be at your doorstep, and they will take what you have (and that includes your life and the lives of your families) Don't believe me? Stand over a mass grave in Iraq, or Yugoslavia, or Cambodia, or Somolia, or even at a WWII era concentration camp, and let the voices of the dead whisper in your ear. Remember, you are one bullet from being in a hole just like them. Only our commitment to make war upon anyone who will hurt us and the ability to back it up with clearly superior firepower prevents them from being here right this minute.

Third

Who gives a rat's burning behind if the rest of the world likes or dislikes the U.S. Of course nobody is going to like us...we are the guys they talk about when they talk about the golden rule "he who has the gold, makes the rules". If they can convince us that we are wrong, and that we should hand over our power, they would love that, ya know? Who wouldn't? The question is, as United States citizens, are we stupid enough to hand over our winning poker hand because we feel sorry for they guy from who we are fixing to take his money from? If you say, or even think yes to that question, you need to have your name on a list to prevent you from ever being considered as an elected official, (not to mention the fact that you should swear off gambling)

Four

Healthcare:

It is expensive. Face it. Coming up with new drugs, developing them, making them safe, it is expensive. Very expensive. The fact of the matter is, countries with socialized health care do not pay for the development of new drugs/proceedures, we do. Everyone else suckles off of our tit (the United States) and we provide the world with the technology and funding to make it happen. It sucks to be the best. If you don't want to be in a country where the best live and thrive, you should move somewhere else where they like to give out handouts and support a welfare/socialist state (but also wait like 6-10 months for a basic doctors appointment).


The United States is the best place in the world to live if you are a winner. You can accomplish anything, and live like a king. Okay, so it is not so great to live here if you are a loser, but then, that is why they make airplane tickets, isn't it?

well put, at least there are a few sane people on here.

Absolutly, How someone can question the sacrifice made by those who serve is something I will never understand. Maybe its because you Europeans have no sense of honor or duty to your countries. You just want to drink beer, watch soccer, and work 3 hours week. Sitting back, relaxing have no problem disgracing people who stand for something. maybe Im wrong, but thats I what Im seeing.

Can't help wondering where you are seeing that... in those troops we sent to Afghanistan?
It's just that we stopped heroifying soldiers. They are people who do their jobs, nothing more nothing less. Yes, it is a dangerous job, but so is working as a firefighter, or working with emergency services. They are ordinary people, not semi-gods.

Thats where patriotism becomes nationalism and thats a bad thing-that leads to war, death and suffering.


Nationalism is not a bad thing, there is nothing more beautiful than to kill and die for your country(which makes up a large part of you are). If my country dies, I die, so I might as well die defending it.

Nationalism is not a bad thing, there is nothing more beautiful than to kill and die for your country(which makes up a large part of you are). If my country dies, I die, so I might as well die defending it.

Sure, nationalism is the best thing that happened to Europe in the last century. And a few thousand Germans got granted that ultimate, magnificent goal of being allowed to kill 6 millions for their country. And then get killed for their country, too. Makes you green with envy, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Can't help wondering where you are seeing that... in those troops we sent to Afghanistan?
It's just that we stopped heroifying soldiers. They are people who do their jobs, nothing more nothing less. Yes, it is a dangerous job, but so is working as a firefighter, or working with emergency services. They are ordinary people, not semi-gods.
no, I have no problem seeing the sacrifice every soldier makes. I was wondering if you europeans really have no sense of honor or duty to your countries because thats what it seems like to me.

Nationalism is not a bad thing, there is nothing more beautiful than to kill and die for your country
Interesting. So there's nothing more beautiful than giving up your own life for a large group of random other people simply because they happen to be your countrymates?
*sigh* Collectivism...

no, I have no problem seeing the sacrifice every soldier makes. I was wondering if you europeans really have no sense of honor or duty to your countries because thats what it seems like to me.

Define "honor" and "duty to your country"

Nationalism is not a bad thing, there is nothing more beautiful than to kill and die for your country(which makes up a large part of you are). If my country dies, I die, so I might as well die defending it.

Do I really have to post Dulce et Decorum Est?
I will.
I mean it.

Define "honor" and "duty to your country"
I sense of pride in country, the willingness to defend it. Do you not feel you have a duty to defend your country?

Do I really have to post Dulce et Decorum Est?
I will.
I mean it.
Post whatever you like

Sure, nationalism is the best thing that happened to Europe in the last century. And a few thousand Germans got granted that ultimate, magnificent goal of being allowed to kill 6 millions for their country. And then get killed for their country, too. Makes you green with envy, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
I love how people with no willingness to stand up for their homeland automatically to go nazi references.

Well.... I come from a small town in Germany with a large US army base. And no, actually, soldiers were always far from being the "best people in the world". Generally speaking, they make a living killing people. Not good in my book.

First off, I can't speak to how Soldiers posted to Germany have acted since I haven't been posted there. But I still think you're making some statements that are - in my opinion - innaccurate, and I'm going to attempt to rebut.

You seem to be under the impression that all US Soldiers sit around praying to get deployed so they can go out and shoot at other people. I assure you that this isn't the case. I work in the S-2 (intelligence) shop for an air defense brigade and I assure you that nobody I work with wants to go out to kill someone. First, our unit's job, as a PATRIOT brigade, is defense; to shoot down combat aircraft and, more importantly, ballistic missiles that are nowhere near as selective in their targets as a single Soldier is with his M16.

Second, and yes, this is a bit of spin, but bear with me. A Soldier in Afghanistan shoots an Al Quaeda terrorist. While killing another human being is not in itself a good thing, the effects go beyond the simple act. This terrorist, if unchecked, could end up being the one that goes out and repeats the attacks of 9/11 and killing hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians. I hate to reduce human lives to numbers like this, but if my killing one person will save more people, I'll take the shot and deal with it. (Admittedly, I've never been in combat, a fact which I think is a good thing.)

Third, I have yet to meet the professional Soldier who sits around and prays for combat, and I never hope to. While having the world's best trained and best equipped armed forces is a fact worth mentioning, I think it is equally important to note that the U.S. has yet to deploy those armed forces to a combat area where it did not have at least a modicum of justification. Leaving the whole Iraqui WMD intelligence and the accuracy thereof alone, the U.S. military has been used much more as a deterrent than anything else - especially the Navy. I mean, wouldn't the posting of a U.S. carrier group or two off your shore give you pause?

Finally, as a Soldier, some of the comments on here are quite frankly disturbing and offensive. I personally think one of the most honorable things one can do is make the sacrifice of a "normal" life and volunteering to place one's mortal body between home and war's desolation deserves at least some respect. And not even for myself, as I've not done much but sit at a desk, but more for those who have been deployed, and not necessarily came back. For wether you think what the U.S. is doing is right or not, the point is moot. What is done is done, and the only responsible course of action for our nation is to stay the course and make sure we leave those people with a stable, peaceful nation capable of defending itself - both in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I felt like making a post about all the good America does. We have the biggest and best economy with by far the biggest GDP of any country. We the strongest military and we spend 400 billion dollars a year on it(I think it should be more) and have over 3,000 nukes(should be more). We also have alot of freedom and a great quality of life. Our entertainment is the best in world and alot of people want to be like us. God bless America!
America actually has 10,000 nukes it says so on the international atomic agencues website.

Interesting. So there's nothing more beautiful than giving up your own life for a large group of random other people simply because they happen to be your countrymates?
*sigh* Collectivism...

Well, first, its not a large group of random people. Its your country, your neighbors, your friends and family. Its even the people who speak bad about your country, the ones who just irritate you so much because they talk about how horrible you are or your religion is or your country or your whatever. I am willing to do anything necissary for the protection of my home. And my home is not just the city i live in, or Texas, or the south, its the United States of America. And it wont matter who is in control of the government at the time, or what their believs are, it only matters that the U.S.'s borders are protected.

And to tell you the truth, its not just the U.S. If I thought it was the right thing to do, I would give up my life for it. I also have no problems with dieing in order to save a majority, regardless of who it is. well, mostly...I gotta admit that I would have no problem letting a majority of criminals die to save one innocent person.

But that is just my personal opinion. I'm not sure if I wrote everything correctly, i'm sorta in a hury. :)

"there is nothing more beautiful than to kill and die for your country"

That has been the credo of every terrorist, tyrant, genocide, and butcher throughout human history.

Well, first, its not a large group of random people. Its your country, your neighbors, your friends and family.
They compose a very small fraction of the country I live in.
Its even the people who speak bad about your country, the ones who just irritate you so much because they talk about how horrible you are or your religion is or your country or your whatever.
Well, I can't see why I'd want to die for people who irritate me.
I am willing to do anything necissary for the protection of my home. And my home is not just the city i live in, or Texas, or the south, its the United States of America. And it wont matter who is in control of the government at the time, or what their believs are, it only matters that the U.S.'s borders are protected.
I really don't see what it is that makes it so the US is and always will be good. If the country decided it was against me, I can't say I'd feel any need to support it.

"there is nothing more beautiful than to kill and die for your country"

That has been the credo of every terrorist, tyrant, genocide, and butcher throughout human history.

Seconded

I was wondering if you europeans really have no sense of honor or duty to your countries because thats what it seems like to me.
What you need to have a look at is a book about the history of philosophy.

In there, you will find a man called "Hegel". Hegel was a German, who believed that there were great ideas in the world, and we people were, in a way, just instruments of those ideas, which would struggle against each other and eventually one would triumph (sorta like your PotUS: Freedom vs Terror).
Hegel also was around at a time when Germans became increasingly unhappy with not having a country. As a result, in an adaptation of Hegel and others like him, the idea of Romantic Nationalism was formed, where you would essentially make your nation one of those ideas, and they would struggle against each other and eventually fulfil their destinies. In other words, people started to talk about Germany, or France, or America as if they were people, not collections of individuals.

In America, that came out as "manifest destiny" (the idea of expanding into the West of the continent and beyond) and "American Exceptionalism" (the idea that America is unique and special in the world).
In Germany, that came out as Nationalism, Militarism and eventually Kaiser Wilhelm II. struggle for a place in the sun for Germany. As a result, we had WWI.

WWI destroyed Europe. It destroyed its society (monarchies fell, aristocracies were destroyed, revolutions came up everywhere), its religion (every church had said that god was with their respective country - instead god let people slaughter each other on an unbelievable scale), its people (particularly the veterans came back disturbed and broken) and its politics (countries were split up, conspiracy theorists had a field day, rational thinking was abandoned).

In many countries, that was enough to abandon Nationalism. Not so in Germany: Hitler utilised the exact same ideas that you have about the US, of a destiny, of being a great power, about Germany as the purest nation on earth, meant to be a leader, to create his regime.

We know how that ended, and this time, even the Germans got it. Nationalism is not cool. Nations are nothing but arbitrary lines, communities, bound together by interests if anything.

The problem is that the US never got it. Indeed, manifest destiny made them rich. The Monroe Doctrine made them an empire. And the wars made them powerful.
Nothing bad has ever happened to the States because of their nationalism. And I think that is why America acts the way it does, and why Europeans just can't understand. They say to themselves: "Have these guys learned nothing? How can they be so dumb?"

And all you can come up with in return is: "They're just jealous. God bless America!"

NL is fast becomming my favorite poster :)


I said it before and I will say it again. The US must keep its status at any costs, and no matter how many lives.

That is the most disguesting thing I have ever heard.

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than hisown personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stuart Mill

I am perferctly willing to fight for my freedom. I will fight anyone who tryes to take it from me, and I will die if need be.


As for the reason I don't just leave:

1) My whole family lives here (within Maryland). Family is important to me

2) Instead of take the easy way out and run, I'd rather stay here, try to help those who need it, accentuate the good, and fight and try to change the bad.

I have my dignity as a human being. I will not be run out of my home just because some asshole conciders it part of "his country."

I am quickly becoming convinced that Katzistanza, and the other Americans on this board who have taken up that side of this issue are, in fact, more patriotic than people like The UN Ambassadorship. It is truly more American to recognize the problems within the system, and try to change them for the better, as such actions are built within the roots of American. It could be argued that that is what makes us American. The real patriots are the civil rights proesters, those who fought to abolish slavery, those who love this country enough to stay and make this country what it was meant to be, "great". Those who improve rather than embrace mediocraty. Those who would rather stay and fight, than simply move to Canada. So kudos to those who are calling for change in the system. To those of you who don't wish o follow blindly. For it is people such as you, who make this country great. And it has been often shown the far-right that has attempted to go back to the days before this greatness. So all of you keep up the good fight.

Well, I can't see why I'd want to die for people who irritate me.

I guess what I was trying to say, is that its not a certain person (or people) that would 'cause me to die for them, its if it was the right thing to do. Like, regardless of what the reason, or what people say the reason is, its if I personaly believe its the right thing to do.

I would, more than likely, fight/die to defend my country, before i would fight/die against it. However, I also think differently than other people do about that. If the U.S. government passed a law outlawing guns, I would fight against that law. Because it would be unconstitutional for the government to have done that. So I would still be fighting for my country. Just not for the government that was in it.

I really don't see what it is that makes it so the US is and always will be good. If the country decided it was against me, I can't say I'd feel any need to support it.

I'm also not trying to say that the U.S. will always be 'good'. I believe that it is now, but people's definitions of good will always be different. I mean, one person could think that executing anyone who commited any type of crimes is the good thing to do, because in the long run it will reduce crime. While someone else might think that having a death penalty for anything is totaly evil. I know i've gone to the extreme on both of these, and neither is what I belive, but i'm just trying to be clear about what i'm saying.

And your right, if my government does something that I think is the wrong thing to do, of course I dont support that action. Not only do I not support it, but I write my government officials and tell them so (i'm sure that they dont worry about me writing them, lol, but I'm certainly not going to vote for them if they dont have the general opinions that I do). I still support my country; even if I dont support the particular peice of legislation.

I guess what I was trying to say, is that its not a certain person (or people) that would 'cause me to die for them, its if it was the right thing to do. Like, regardless of what the reason, or what people say the reason is, its if I personaly believe its the right thing to do.

I would, more than likely, fight/die to defend my country, before i would fight/die against it. However, I also think differently than other people do about that. If the U.S. government passed a law outlawing guns, I would fight against that law. Because it would be unconstitutional for the government to have done that. So I would still be fighting for my country. Just not for the government that was in it.



I'm also not trying to say that the U.S. will always be 'good'. I believe that it is now, but people's definitions of good will always be different. I mean, one person could think that executing anyone who commited any type of crimes is the good thing to do, because in the long run it will reduce crime. While someone else might think that having a death penalty for anything is totaly evil. I know i've gone to the extreme on both of these, and neither is what I belive, but i'm just trying to be clear about what i'm saying.

And your right, if my government does something that I think is the wrong thing to do, of course I dont support that action. Not only do I not support it, but I write my government officials and tell them so (i'm sure that they dont worry about me writing them, lol, but I'm certainly not going to vote for them if they dont have the general opinions that I do). I still support my country; even if I dont support the particular peice of legislation.

I agree with you on all points here in.

----edit

well almost all. there's a few very minor point that i disagree with, but the message as a whole i agree with.

In many countries, that was enough to abandon Nationalism. Not so in Germany: Hitler utilised the exact same ideas that you have about the US, of a destiny, of being a great power, about Germany as the purest nation on earth, meant to be a leader, to create his regime.

I'm very worried about saying this, and I probably shouldn't. I dont want y'all to think that i'm Nazi-ish at all, because i'm not. I think that what they did was a horrible thing.
Germany was in a depression due to WWI. WWI had left Europe devistated (obviously). Due to the Treaty of Versailles a large amount of land was taken from Germany, She was allowed an army of no more than 100,000 men with no tanks, a navy that was severely limited, as well as no submarines (other than the ones that had already been constructed). Much of the land that had been seazed by the Allies held important economical value. Furthermor, it required Germany to pay for all damages that had occured due to the war. This was a sum well above what Germany could even hope to pay.

So here comes Hitler, who was an excelent public speaker, who promises to pull Germany out of the depression. And you know what? He did. He built up the army and the navy, and began taking land. And Europe allowed him to do so. (Now that I have gone off on my rant, i have to remember what it had to do with anything! lol. I could rant all day about this, but i'm sure y'all want me to get over it, so I guess I will.)

It wasn't an idea of nationalism that made the German citizens elect him as a leader, it was his promises to pull them out of the depression. And yes, he spoke about how great Germany was and a lot of his ideas are not what I would call 'good'. However, it was the promise to get out of the depression that put him into power, not his 'nationalism'.

QUOTE=Neu Leonstein]
We know how that ended, and this time, even the Germans got it.

and, (as another part of my rant), WWII was really just a continuation of WWI, as the Allies made it impossible for Germany to really exist in the world.

QUOTE=Neu Leonstein]
And all you can come up with in return is: "They're just jealous. God bless America!"

I've never thought that other countries were jealous of the U.S. (I do do the God Bless America part, though). I really just figured that everyone liked their countries (not everyone, obviously, but in general) or else, why would they live there? I mean, I have little doubt that people who live in Britain are proud to be British. People who live in Germany are glad to be Germans. Or is that not how it is, and I'm just naive? I mean, of course not every single person is proud of their country. There are plenty of Americans who talk about how horrible America is (though I notice they are still here).

Urban America is good (apart from the ludicrously high homicide rates in certain inner cities).

Rural America is the lowest form of Western Civilization.

It is truly more American to recognize the problems within the system, and try to change them for the better, as such actions are built within the roots of American.

I agree with that, I never said that America was perfect (not am I trying to say that it is the best, or that we are the most powerful, or any of that other stuff that was in the original post, i'm just adding my opinions here or there as I read posts...I haven't actualy read more than the last couple of pages, so dont hate me because you think i'm stuck up, 'cause i'm not! :D )

[QUOTE=Rob Parkers America]
The real patriots are the civil rights proesters, those who fought to abolish slavery, those who love this country enough to stay and make this country what it was meant to be, "great". Those who improve rather than embrace mediocraty. Those who would rather stay and fight, than simply move to Canada. So kudos to those who are calling for change in the system. [QUOTE]

This I mostly agree with too. There are always things that need changing and that need to be 'fixed'. And a country certainly could not be great if the people didn't work hard to make it so. No country is inherentely great, it just isn't.

However, about the protestors, I do agree. Except, that I think its wrong to protest a war that we are in that we are actualy fighting. Like, before the war, and after the war. But during the war I believe that all it does is get our soldiers killed. And that, to me, is just wrong. Like those people who are going around telling soldiers that they are 'baby killers' etc. That should not be tolerated. Not at all. It makes me very upset, so i'm gonna shut up now before i go off on yet another rant. :rolleyes: (I do that a lot)

It wasn't an idea of nationalism that made the German citizens elect him as a leader, it was his promises to pull them out of the depression. And yes, he spoke about how great Germany was and a lot of his ideas are not what I would call 'good'. However, it was the promise to get out of the depression that put him into power, not his 'nationalism'.
Look at his rhetoric though. The end of the economic troubles (which had already gotten a lot better by 1933) was just a means to an end. It was about ending Versailles, destroying the impurities in the nation and all in all reclaim Germany's rightful place as the leader of all nations and peoples.
It is exactly what I meant with the ideas of a national destiny (which with Hitler was combined with a racial destiny), the country before the individual and so on and so forth.
Of course there were various practical reasons, but the theoretical underpinnings that caused all this were largely the same you will still find with many Americans.

I mean, I have little doubt that people who live in Britain are proud to be British.
Probably. Although few would contend that their nation is a "beacon of hope" in the world, or a "defender of freedom". Or just generally been issued with a divine mission to bring democracy to everyone.

People who live in Germany are glad to be Germans.
That is a little less likely. Some certainly are, and most don't particularly mind. But you won't find all that many that would say "I'm glad to be German!".
I don't know whether you heard about a recent media campaign to try and get people to be a little more patriotic...suffice to say that it failed miserably and remains the object of ridicule still.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,397008,00.html

I agree with you on all points here in.

----edit

well almost all. there's a few very minor point that i disagree with, but the message as a whole i agree with.

Its quite possible that I just said something wrong! lol. But I am curious about what you disagree with. (I'm not one of those people who get all grouchy and yell-ey about when people disagree with them, so dont worry about that!.....if you were.....)

Look at his rhetoric though. The end of the economic troubles (which had already gotten a lot better by 1933) was just a means to an end. It was about ending Versailles, destroying the impurities in the nation and all in all reclaim Germany's rightful place as the leader of all nations and peoples.]
well, all of that is 'a means to an end'. Hitler found ways to get what he wanted. Power. The reason he wanted Germany to be powerful is because he wanted power. And your right. It was about Versailles, thats part of what I said in my last post. The reason the economy was getting better was because of what Germany (and Hitler) was beginning to do to get rid of the restrictions from the Versailles Treaty.


It is exactly what I meant with the ideas of a national destiny (which with Hitler was combined with a racial destiny), the country before the individual and so on and so forth.
Of course there were various practical reasons, but the theoretical underpinnings that caused all this were largely the same you will still find with many Americans.]
I doubt that you will find very many Americans going around trying to tell you that a particular race is better than all the rest. Nor do I think you will find a lot of Americans who are saying that the U.S. needs to be going around telling other countries what they do. What I have noticed is often quite the opposit. Americans complain at least as much as y'all do about us 'policeing the world'. Not that i'm trying to say that there aren't people with extreme views, but to me it seems that most Americans just go about their own business.
Nore would I put the country before the individual. Thats not what I have been saying at all. I guess thats the thing about America (or how I perceive it). It Is the people. I wouldn't go to war for America if all it was was a government, I would go to war for Americans. does that make sense? The country is the people, its made up by the people. The people determine how the country is, what it does, how it works. Its the people who determine if the country is 'good' or not, if it has morals, and that create the image of the nation.


Probably. Although few would contend that their nation is a "beacon of hope" in the world, or a "defender of freedom". Or just generally been issued with a divine mission to bring democracy to everyone.]

Oh, I see. So this isn't really about America, but America's war on terror? I dont call America a 'beacon of hope.' Do countless people come to America out of choice because they think they will have better lives? Yeah, they do. Because they want to be Americans. My family is from Scotland and Germany (ancestors, I was born here, as were both of my parents). They came from Germany because there was a better chance for a good life, as they did from Scotland. Is that me trying to say that America is better than Germany or Scotland? Certainly not! I'm just saying that if people are calling it a 'beacon of hope' its because thats what they think it is. I have never heard it called that, so I wouldn't know the difference.

and the 'defender of freedom' thing? Well, that goes back to me thinking that people should always do the right thing. But there is no way I would say that America is The defender of freedom. Because we are not. There are a lot of countries that are defenders of freedom, that are helping people because, as people, they have certain rights.

And, if this did have to do with America's war on terror (I wasn't sure), the war has nothing to do with 'beacons of light' or 'defending freedom'. It has to do with neutralizing terrorists. And, in case you couldn't tell, I personaly completely support the elimination of all terrorist, regardless of who they are or where they live.


That is a little less likely. Some certainly are, and most don't particularly mind. But you won't find all that many that would say "I'm glad to be German!".
I don't know whether you heard about a recent media campaign to try and get people to be a little more patriotic...suffice to say that it failed miserably and remains the object of ridicule still.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,397008,00.html

And i'm sure this has nothing to do with anything, but I gotta say, I have always been extremely proud of my German herritages. If I were German, I would be just as adiment about being proud and patriotic as I am here as a U.S. citizen. I've always loved Germany, though, I love this history and the people. Any chance I get I let people know i'm German. But then, maybe i'm just one of those self-absorbed people who think that I am better than everyoe else and thats why i'm so patriotic/proud of me and my country and my heritage.

The reason the economy was getting better was because of what Germany (and Hitler) was beginning to do to get rid of the restrictions from the Versailles Treaty.
Not really. If you have a look at the depression, the hyperinflation and the huge unemployment, that was either gone or getting better by '33.
People often don't pay attention to those two or three years, but in reality the frustration was not so much with the economy as it was with the impotency of the political process in Weimar.

The country is the people, its made up by the people. The people determine how the country is, what it does, how it works. Its the people who determine if the country is 'good' or not, if it has morals, and that create the image of the nation.
Which is what I mean. It assumes that there is a "the people" that are somehow a unity that moves through history.

Oh, I see. So this isn't really about America, but America's war on terror?
That's what America is about these days...

And, in case you couldn't tell, I personaly completely support the elimination of all terrorist, regardless of who they are or where they live.
My view on that is somewhat more complicated, and not for this thread. Just let it be said that I think "eliminating terrorists" is simplistic and won't achieve anything.

My family is from Scotland and Germany (ancestors, I was born here, as were both of my parents).
...
And i'm sure this has nothing to do with anything, but I gotta say, I have always been extremely proud of my German herritages. If I were German, I would be just as adiment about being proud and patriotic as I am here as a U.S. citizen. I've always loved Germany, though, I love this history and the people. Any chance I get I let people know i'm German. But then, maybe i'm just one of those self-absorbed people who think that I am better than everyoe else and thats why i'm so patriotic/proud of me and my country and my heritage.
You know, I'm afraid I have to agree with your last sentence. You're not German.
I assume you don't speak German, meaning that you are not in the linguistic group that used to define who and who isn't "Deutsch".
You say yourself that you are not a German citizen.
You say yourself that you weren't born in Germany, nor were your parents.

In other words, there is no argument to be made for you to tell people you are German.

However, about the protestors, I do agree. Except, that I think its wrong to protest a war that we are in that we are actualy fighting. Like, before the war, and after the war. But during the war I believe that all it does is get our soldiers killed. And that, to me, is just wrong. Like those people who are going around telling soldiers that they are 'baby killers' etc. That should not be tolerated. Not at all. It makes me very upset, so i'm gonna shut up now before i go off on yet another rant. :rolleyes: (I do that a lot)

There is something your not seeing here. The political situation which has led to the protests, is essentially the same as when we went to war in vietnam. And those people protesting the war, are doing just that. They are protesting the war, not the solidgers. These people (most of them) respect the solidgers very much, for their service, that is honorable indeed. But the protests are about going into Iraq under false pretenses. And please do not by any means take this personally, because it is not meant to be. But how are protesters in washington getting our solidgers killed? I personally think that it is the media showing America's weak points, say L.A. or New Orleans (pre-katrina), that is putting americans in danger. Especially when they have a reporter in the field giving away our attack strategy on globally broadcasted T.V. In conclusion, the protesters (majority of them) are anti-war, but pro-troops. Many of them do not bad mouth the soligers but the leaders themselves. And the protesters have a right to say what they wish, we call this civil rights. But of course this is all just another rant, have a good day.

Which is what I mean. It assumes that there is a "the people" that are somehow a unity that moves through history..

Well of course there is a 'the people'. And thats the way it is. Do we always agree on everything. Nope. (I dont think we ever do, actualy). But are we all Americans? Yeah, we are. And we (mostly) like it that way. People came here to be Americans. Very few of the people here today are from America America. We came from all over the place (we being people who came to settle/who immigrated here) because we wanted to be Americans. And yeah, we are proud to be Americans.


You know, I'm afraid I have to agree with your last sentence. You're not German.
I assume you don't speak German, meaning that you are not in the linguistic group that used to define who and who isn't "Deutsch".
You say yourself that you are not a German citizen.
You say yourself that you weren't born in Germany, nor were your parents.

In other words, there is no argument to be made for you to tell people you are German.


:) Well, i dont actualy tell them that I am a German citizen or anything, just that my family is from Germany, because it is. I have family in Germany, I speak with them, and I enjoy it. I do speak German, actualy. Not very well, I admit, but there are several German words that I didn't even realize were not English until I was in highschool because my family used them as though they were English. Am I a German citizen? No. Do I live in Germany now? No. I'm an American, and glad to be. But am I German? Yeah, yeah I am. Am I proud to be German? Absolutely. I love Germany, I think its beautiful (Of course, when we visit we stay in the country where my family lives, so I dont really know a whole lot about the cities).

Anyway, the thing is, I feel like you are getting angry at me, and I dont want that. I mean, you've been very polite and everything, but I dont see a reason to make you any more upset with me than you already are. (Plus I dont really have time to be checking this as much as I did today. :D ) So most likely I'll leave you be now. I may check back sometime this week, but it probably wont be for a while.

There is something your not seeing here. The political situation which has led to the protests, is essentially the same as when we went to war in vietnam. And those people protesting the war, are doing just that. They are protesting the war, not the solidgers. These people (most of them) respect the solidgers very much, for their service, that is honorable indeed. But the protests are about going into Iraq under false pretenses. And please do not by any means take this personally, because it is not meant to be. But how are protesters in washington getting our solidgers killed? .

The people who are protesting the war, and not the soldiers do not bother me as much at all. I cant stand people who are talking about how horrible our soldiers are. But the people who protest the war because they think its wrong, thats different entirely.

And the way I believe that they are getting our soldiers killed is because I believe that when they protest, and the government talks about pulling out (any government official) it gives the enemy more reason to fight back. Like, if there are people demanding that we pull our troops out because they are getting killed, it seems to me that the enemy would want to kill more, so that there would be more protests, so that the government would give in and pull the soldiers out. Does that make sense? (Like, what i mean to say i mean, the theory might not make sense to you. heh..)

I personally think that it is the media showing America's weak points, say L.A. or New Orleans (pre-katrina), that is putting americans in danger. Especially when they have a reporter in the field giving away our attack strategy on globally broadcasted T.V. In conclusion, the protesters (majority of them) are anti-war, but pro-troops. Many of them do not bad mouth the soligers but the leaders themselves. And the protesters have a right to say what they wish, we call this civil rights. But of course this is all just another rant, have a good day.

I completely agree with that! That has never made sense to me at all! Lets tell the enemy exactly what we are doing, that will make it work better. :rolleyes: To be honest I dont think that the news needs to know about the military operations until after they happen (during a war, I mean..If a war hasn't begun yet they have a right to know we are about to declare war. lol)

Oh, and by the way, thanks for not being mean about it like people do. I try not to be, but I always worry that I am being mean. I try to make a lot of smiley faces so that people wont get mad at me...But it doesn't really fit so well in 'heated' topics...or topics having to do with any wars/death/etc topics.

Why do you hate America. The government has the right to observe communication between citizens and those overseas. The torture issue and the secret prisons should never have been made public. Theres somethings the public doesnt need to know(believe me). You may not understand how the world works, sometimes bad people need to be hurt or killed for the safety of others.

China will not take over, when they let their dollar hit the market, it will colapse, along with the economy. The US will be #1 for a long time, dont worry.

Wow buddy, China is keeping their currency artificially low by buying US currency so that the US could keep on buying their products. Both economies will suffer maybe China more. China has already surpassed the UK as number 4 it will only be a matter of time before their number one just look at ridiculously fast their growing.

However, about the protestors, I do agree. Except, that I think its wrong to protest a war that we are in that we are actualy fighting. Like, before the war, and after the war. But during the war I believe that all it does is get our soldiers killed. And that, to me, is just wrong. Like those people who are going around telling soldiers that they are 'baby killers' etc. That should not be tolerated. Not at all. It makes me very upset, so i'm gonna shut up now before i go off on yet another rant. :rolleyes: (I do that a lot)

I really don't see hpw protesters are getting troops killed. I will adress the reason you gave in a bit.

I say that protests are necciscary. Since the government is (supposed to be) nothing more then an extent of the will of the people, the people must make their will known. Also, when the government is not playing by the rules, the people must do their best to try to fight back. Also, since the government is an extent of the people, the people have a stake in how they are represented. If the government is using brutal, immoral, or evil tactics,, the people have a right, and a duty, to attempt to bring them back in line, or at least express their outrage.

I have gone to many protests, clashed with police, broken laws, and directed all my anger at the politicians who I concider mobsters and murders, but I am never anti-soldier or anti-cop. Neither am I "pro" either of these things. I eveluate and judge each person on their indevidual merits and flaws, not based on their job. I do start out giving people the beifit of the doubt, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for soldiers and cops who truly want to do good, who want to keep order, who want to fight evil or defend their countrymen. These are some of the very best of humanity. But, as in any group, there are those who shame the race. There are soldiers who only joined up because they like to shoot people. There are sadistic, sick, evil soldiers who relish in death and inflicting pain. There are cops who completely disregard the law, inflict brutal beatings, are racists, and who frankly don't deserve to wear the badge.

As I said, if I see a cop, or a soldier, I will usually go up to them and thank them. I always make a point, at actions, to be friendly and polite to the police, apologize for other over-zelous protesters, and tell them I know they got a job to do and I respect them. But if a cop acts immorally, or attacks/uses excessive force against me or anyone else, I will not hesitate to fight. I respect most cops, but that won't stop me from doing anything illegal, and I will not surrender peacefully to them. They must act as their conscience compells, and so must I. And to those who are brutal and malicious, I give no special regard to because of their job. They are nothing but thugs.

You know, I'm afraid I have to agree with your last sentence. You're not German.
I assume you don't speak German, meaning that you are not in the linguistic group that used to define who and who isn't "Deutsch".
You say yourself that you are not a German citizen.
You say yourself that you weren't born in Germany, nor were your parents.

In other words, there is no argument to be made for you to tell people you are German.

I was born in the US, as were my parents, but I still condider myself Greek. The same blood runs in my veins in an unbroken chain from my Greek ancesters, back to before records were kept. Though I was born in the US, and thus am an American, I am still a member of the Greek race.

And the way I believe that they are getting our soldiers killed is because I believe that when they protest, and the government talks about pulling out (any government official) it gives the enemy more reason to fight back. Like, if there are people demanding that we pull our troops out because they are getting killed, it seems to me that the enemy would want to kill more, so that there would be more protests, so that the government would give in and pull the soldiers out. Does that make sense? (Like, what i mean to say i mean, the theory might not make sense to you. heh..)

In the case of the Iraqi resistance, and of gurilla wars in general, the gurillas fight because they believe that to submit to the forgien occupier is a fate worse then death, an unacceptible outcome. Weather they believe the enemy pullout is a day away or 10 years, many insurgents fight because they beleive in something enough to die for it. Very few gurillas go to war expecting to come back.

Well of course there is a 'the people'.
I guess you're right, although I still feel that you can't speak about common interests or a common destiny as such (and I'm starting to see that I'm getting to the point where my English is not up to the task of really grasping all the meaning behind some of these words).
But even if you don't go down that road with the States, there still remains the Hegelian idea of the US representing freedom, fighting oppression and so on.

Obviously this will not apply to all Americans, but recent policies, election results and rhetoric suggests to me that the same ideas which once destroyed Europe are still around.
My best example of that is of course PNAC (http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm).

But am I German? Yeah, yeah I am. Am I proud to be German? Absolutely.
...Though I was born in the US, and thus am an American, I am still a member of the Greek race.
Well, I can't tell you what you are. I've always known, there never was a doubt.
Perhaps this goes together with my education and my whole world-view, which doesn't like ethnicity being used like this (and denies that there is such a thing as "German ethnicity" or "German race"). Suffice to say that you will be different from a German/Greek as you will find them in Germany/Greece.

You two can't help but be American (hehe). You were born there, grew up there, your culture is American, your outlook on the world is American.
I suppose you're not ethnic Americans (not that there is such a thing), but for all intents and purposes, the country your ancestors came from is meaningless IMHO.

Anyway, the thing is, I feel like you are getting angry at me, and I dont want that.
Don't worry. I like you. :)

Generally I don't really get angry because of a debate on the internet, and nothing you've done has even come close to really annoy me. :D

Urban America is good (apart from the ludicrously high homicide rates in certain inner cities).

Rural America is the lowest form of Western Civilization.

Ha, I say. HA!

Urban America is the lowest form of Western Civilization (excepting San Fransisco, and maybe a few others). The most polite Americans live in the rural areas. The Americans who are the least likely to hold you up are those living in the rural areas.

I mean, unless your idea of a high civilization is getting shot for your shoes....

NL is fast becomming my favorite poster :)




That is the most disguesting thing I have ever heard.



I am perferctly willing to fight for my freedom. I will fight anyone who tryes to take it from me, and I will die if need be.


As for the reason I don't just leave:

1) My whole family lives here (within Maryland). Family is important to me

2) Instead of take the easy way out and run, I'd rather stay here, try to help those who need it, accentuate the good, and fight and try to change the bad.

I have my dignity as a human being. I will not be run out of my home just because some asshole conciders it part of "his country."

Most disguesting you have ever heard? If think for one second that the US could maintian its status without this policy, your dead wrong. Sometimes people have to die or get hurt, its as simple as that.

was that 1st post a joke?

Most disguesting you have ever heard? If think for one second that the US could maintian its status without this policy, your dead wrong. Sometimes people have to die or get hurt, its as simple as that.
Or in other words:
Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....

...For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death. Fascism is the doctrine best adapted to represent the tendencies and the aspirations of a people, like the people of Italy, who are rising again after many centuries of abasement and foreign servitude. But empire demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects of the practical working of the regime, the character of many forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which must be taken against those who would oppose this spontaneous and inevitable movement of Italy in the twentieth century, and would oppose it by recalling the outworn ideology of the nineteenth century - repudiated wheresoever there has been the courage to undertake great experiments of social and political transformation; for never before has the nation stood more in need of authority, of direction and order. If every age has its own characteristic doctrine, there are a thousand signs which point to Fascism as the characteristic doctrine of our time. For if a doctrine must be a living thing, this is proved by the fact that Fascism has created a living faith; and that this faith is very powerful in the minds of men is demonstrated by those who have suffered and died for it.

You two can't help but be American (hehe). You were born there, grew up there, your culture is American, your outlook on the world is American.
I suppose you're not ethnic Americans (not that there is such a thing), but for all intents and purposes, the country your ancestors came from is meaningless IMHO.

I agree with everything except that my outllook on the world is nessicarily "American" and the last sentence.

Though I am an American, I hold much of the same outlook on the world as you, who are not. For someone who doesn't put much stock in ethinicity and nationalism, you seem to think the way people are, their inner selves, is somehow determined by country of origin.

I wouldn't say I have an American outlook, or Greek outlook, or any other area-spacific outlook. I have a Louis Koutras outlook. It is my own.

It's hard to put into words what I mean: of course your environment is a heavy influence on you and who you are, but I also believe that people are poeple, and there are nationalists, anti-nationalists, collectivists, individualists, libertarians, tyrants, hippies, capitalists, communists, sheep, leaders, fallowers, independent thinkers et cetera in every country, and how a person reacts to their environment, that the environment it's self, is what makes up your outlook and inner self.

As to my heritage, it's very important to me, and thus is very important.


Most disguesting you have ever heard? If think for one second that the US could maintian its status without this policy, your dead wrong. Sometimes people have to die or get hurt, its as simple as that.

I don't think the ends justify the means, nor do I believe in the ends you are advocating in the first place. So yes, both your goal and your methods disgust me. I don't think me and you could be more opposite in our outlooks, dispite comming from the same country.

I love how people with no willingness to stand up for their homeland automatically to go nazi references.

First of, I would have some seriuos difficulties defining my "home land". I'm part Austrian, part German. I spent some time in Canada, and am now living in Ireland. I like all of these places, but to kill for them? No. To die for them? Well, if it does serve a purpose, sure.

You see, the thing about Germans is, they learned from their history. There's no point whatsoever in defending "your" country (which, essentially, is after all nothing more than the place you were born), if that basically means fighting a war of aggression for your maniac overlord and his minions. Pride is nothing wrong, but blind patriotism is an unfallible recipe for desaster.

I'm an American. I was born, raised, and still live smack dab in the middle of it here in the state of Iowa. I was born from lower-middle class parents in a dinky little town of about 6,000 people at most.

Do I love America? Yes, I do. Without question. If I hear anyone even whisper, "Why do you hate America?" there will be an argument. But do I love what it's become/becoming? No I don't. I think what upsets me more than the Religious Right in America thinking they have a foreign and domestic monopoly on moral values is that many of the people in this country think that being patriotic means loving this country no matter what it becomes. That's the most unpatriotic assertion I've ever heard. Excersizing my right to disagree with the body that governs me is one of the freedoms the United States of America claims to exemplify. By doing so I make America stronger. By doing so I am a patriot. The reason that's bottle fed to us for the war in Iraq (for just one example) is to spread freedom. The War On Terror is the biggest swindle by the US government over it's own people in recent history. Possibly in our entire history. We're waging a war on an abstract concept. You may as well say we're waging a war on evil. Heck you may as well say we're waging a war on love. The effect is the same: it's a war that cannot possibly end. When will this war be over? When nobody in this world is terrorized? When there is no more evil in the world? UN Ambassador (however he misspells himself) already admitted that the world doesn't work that way. Then when does it end? When nobody hates the United States anymore? When everybody is too afraid we'll bomb them to hell? Maybe I missed a few social studies classes but that does NOT sound like freedom or democracy. By the mere act of declaring and waging this war we're guaranteeing that it cannot end.

And this "war" is the reason for doing away with one of the most basic and essential freedoms such as no illegal search and seizure without probable cause? It seems inevitable that if a war that can never possibly end is the reason for doing away with a basic freedom, then it can and will be the justification for doing away with the rest of them.

I once joked to a friend that the solution to "making Iraq a free, independent nation" is to just give them our Constitution. After all...we're not using it. I'm not laughing at that joke anymore.

I'll admit that since I'm not a terrorist this domestic spying crap has not affected me yet. YET! But we cannot wait for such violations of our rights to directly affect us. By then it will be too late. WE CANNOT DO WHATEVER WE WANT just because we happen to be the United States of America. It's that sickening arrogance and hypocrisy that weakens us. We cannot claim we're spreading freedom and democracy throughout the world while failing to resusitate it here at home. Otherwise it's nothing more than poorly veiled imperialism, which is all it is in the first place.

So YES, domestic spying and torture SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC. If we're going to be using freedom as an excuse for seizing other countries oil then the very least we can do is practice what we preach. The United States is fallable. The more we American's deny this simple fact the truer it becomes. It is our duty as American citizens and American PATRIOTS to be aware of civil rights violations and hold our leaders accountable for violating them. If we don't have the courage to do that then the only description that fits us when we claim to be the greatest nation on earth is the word that has been used in this thread many times: Arrogant.

And before you even ask: Why don't I leave? Because I believe this country can be the paragon of freedom that it boasts to be. And I refuse to let terrorists like UN Ambassador piss on the final embers of what this country is supposed to represent.

-snip-
Best first post I've seen in a while. You've got a future ahead of you, kid. :D

http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Best first post I've seen in a while. You've got a future ahead of you, kid. :D


Damn right if I might say... glad to see that there really is hope for the future of America if there are more people like Cankersorea around.

Woah, just one night of sleep and I got me a handfull of comments to let loose: So let's start the work...


I hope you'll excuse me for saying this, but Germany has shown us what Nationalism can create-the largest and most terrable war the world has ever seen.


You're absolutely welcome! If i could believe that this would really be a lesson learned from these dark times (and not just a lesson for us germans) I would be glad to see that at least one good thing evolved from this.



I knew i liked you for some reason.


Thats a really nice thing to hear (okok, read) after my second post :D



Thats where patriotism becomes nationalism and thats a bad thing-that leads to war, death and suffering.



Nationalism is not a bad thing, there is nothing more beautiful than to kill and die for your country(which makes up a large part of you are). If my country dies, I die, so I might as well die defending it.


You know, I really didn't want to reply to one of your crazy rants anymore. But this really makes me sick and wanting to hit you real hard...not to defend my country, but to defend the world of crazy bastards who haven't learned anything. If there is any god out there (quod erat demonstrandum there isn't one, and NO I don't want to start another flamewar) anyone mouthing a sentence with "there is nothing more beautiful than to kill" should be hit by lightening the very second he opens his mouth. I sometimes really hope that you are just a troll really having a good time. If not I hope you really will enjoy something beautifull when dying for "your" country when being shot my a paranoid neighbour who mistook you for an arab because you forgot to shave for a few days. It's all a part of the war on terror, so he kills and you die for defending your country. It's a WIN-WIN situation for both of you...

Sorry for my rant...but when anyone acts like that it's sometimes hard to stay calm. Didn't you talk about america being the world leaser for a thousand years to come some time ago? Well, where did I hear that again? A "thousand year REICH"?? Well, I'm glad I'm young enough not to have heard it. To fight to prevent one (at least the one you seem to imagine), now that would be something worth dying for. I would never call it beautiful and I would hate doing it, but for the sake of the free world (and YOU really should do some thinking about the "free" part) I as a peace-loving treehugger would give my life...

Now I think I should stop before I get my first banning on my third post ,)




In many countries, that was enough to abandon Nationalism. Not so in Germany: Hitler utilised the exact same ideas that you have about the US, of a destiny, of being a great power, about Germany as the purest nation on earth, meant to be a leader, to create his regime.

We know how that ended, and this time, even the Germans got it. Nationalism is not cool. Nations are nothing but arbitrary lines, communities, bound together by interests if anything.

The problem is that the US never got it. Indeed, manifest destiny made them rich. The Monroe Doctrine made them an empire. And the wars made them powerful.
Nothing bad has ever happened to the States because of their nationalism. And I think that is why America acts the way it does, and why Europeans just can't understand. They say to themselves: "Have these guys learned nothing? How can they be so dumb?"


I really enjoy reading your posts NL, I really do! For me as a german it really often isn't easy to understand americans. Not that I have to, but sometimes it would be nice understand the thoughts going on in people like our troll UN ambassador...




It is truly more American to recognize the problems within the system, and try to change them for the better, as such actions are built within the roots of American. It could be argued that that is what makes us American. The real patriots are the civil rights proesters, those who fought to abolish slavery, those who love this country enough to stay and make this country what it was meant to be, "great".


Now that's a patriotism I can grasp and understand. And this is why I get so mad when I read how people who stand up and have the guts to say what is wrong are called unpatriotic. It's about the only thing to be proud of.



People who live in Germany are glad to be Germans.



That is a little less likely. Some certainly are, and most don't particularly mind. But you won't find all that many that would say "I'm glad to be German!".
I don't know whether you heard about a recent media campaign to try and get people to be a little more patriotic...suffice to say that it failed miserably and remains the object of ridicule still.


Of course you're right on that... There just isn't anthing like a deeply felt "national idendity". Of course we will happy and celebrate when we win the soccer world cup, but not more.

And about the campaign you mentioned...I think it was more of a try to plant a little more self-confidence and a more optimistic view on things. You know we're the world leaders (HAH, at last! Got you UN!) in being pessimistic "the glass is always half empty" (unlike the US who says: What? That's not my glass, mine was full, and it was bigger! Now give me all you have you little bugger!). So the main message was more something like: YOU can change something, you are the butterfly which can cause a storm, don't ask for help, give help, and so on). So it wasn't that bad at all (just the Forrest Gump music supporting the clip I found a little "funny"...). But you're right on the consequences of course.

It's just a part deep in us that makes us so suspicious abount anything like to much patriotism. Perhaps sometimes too much, but I'm optimistic that we will get the balance right someday. And if there's something I'm proud of about germany it's how we stood up against the war on iraq, how we're at least trying to preserve some nature, that even if our unemployment rate is way too high almost nobody really has to beg for food (yes, there always some people slipping through the social net, but I hope you know what I mean). But I could never be proud of how we bully people around and how many foreigners we have killed and how many we made to hate us for the rest of their life! That's something to be ashamed of, not proud!



First of, I would have some seriuos difficulties defining my "home land". I'm part Austrian, part German. I spent some time in Canada, and am now living in Ireland. I like all of these places, but to kill for them? No. To die for them? Well, if it does serve a purpose, sure.

You see, the thing about Germans is, they learned from their history. There's no point whatsoever in defending "your" country (which, essentially, is after all nothing more than the place you were born), if that basically means fighting a war of aggression for your maniac overlord and his minions. Pride is nothing wrong, but blind patriotism is an unfallible recipe for desaster.


Exactly...to blindly follow were nowhere sane has gone before is not something to be proud of. It could be a nice slogan for a new show "Bush Trek" though...


Wow, I guess I should get to an end and get back to work. I mean, I work for the administration, so working long hours should be my "patriotic duty"!

If the chinese the get sick of us it would just be an economic adjustment. The free market economy is flexible and does not need the Chinese. Our economy is strong and if we go to into a depression a democrat wouldnt be able to pull us out of a depression anymore than a repub. would. The free market doesnt not depend on the Government, thats why its not communism.


I'm sure you know that the so called american free market economy is more government subsidised than the average among EU governments. More than 30% in some sectors of the economy. That is not flexible, if it was imports would not be submited to tariffs, most US industries are imploding, just look at ford or GM compared to european or asian car makers. The steel industry, unable to compete with japanese or brazilian steel, etc., etc.,etc....

*snip*

Nice. You give me hope for this nation, and the world, that I so often lose. I really enjoy reading posts like this. :)

I'm an American. I was born, raised, and still live smack dab in the middle of it here in the state of Iowa. I was born from lower-middle class parents in a dinky little town of about 6,000 people at most.

Do I love America? Yes, I do. Without question. If I hear anyone even whisper, "Why do you hate America?" there will be an argument. But do I love what it's become/becoming? No I don't. I think what upsets me more than the Religious Right in America thinking they have a foreign and domestic monopoly on moral values is that many of the people in this country think that being patriotic means loving this country no matter what it becomes. That's the most unpatriotic assertion I've ever heard. Excersizing my right to disagree with the body that governs me is one of the freedoms the United States of America claims to exemplify. By doing so I make America stronger. By doing so I am a patriot. The reason that's bottle fed to us for the war in Iraq (for just one example) is to spread freedom. The War On Terror is the biggest swindle by the US government over it's own people in recent history. Possibly in our entire history. We're waging a war on an abstract concept. You may as well say we're waging a war on evil. Heck you may as well say we're waging a war on love. The effect is the same: it's a war that cannot possibly end. When will this war be over? When nobody in this world is terrorized? When there is no more evil in the world? UN Ambassador (however he misspells himself) already admitted that the world doesn't work that way. Then when does it end? When nobody hates the United States anymore? When everybody is too afraid we'll bomb them to hell? Maybe I missed a few social studies classes but that does NOT sound like freedom or democracy. By the mere act of declaring and waging this war we're guaranteeing that it cannot end.

And this "war" is the reason for doing away with one of the most basic and essential freedoms such as no illegal search and seizure without probable cause? It seems inevitable that if a war that can never possibly end is the reason for doing away with a basic freedom, then it can and will be the justification for doing away with the rest of them.

I once joked to a friend that the solution to "making Iraq a free, independent nation" is to just give them our Constitution. After all...we're not using it. I'm not laughing at that joke anymore.

I'll admit that since I'm not a terrorist this domestic spying crap has not affected me yet. YET! But we cannot wait for such violations of our rights to directly affect us. By then it will be too late. WE CANNOT DO WHATEVER WE WANT just because we happen to be the United States of America. It's that sickening arrogance and hypocrisy that weakens us. We cannot claim we're spreading freedom and democracy throughout the world while failing to resusitate it here at home. Otherwise it's nothing more than poorly veiled imperialism, which is all it is in the first place.

So YES, domestic spying and torture SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC. If we're going to be using freedom as an excuse for seizing other countries oil then the very least we can do is practice what we preach. The United States is fallable. The more we American's deny this simple fact the truer it becomes. It is our duty as American citizens and American PATRIOTS to be aware of civil rights violations and hold our leaders accountable for violating them. If we don't have the courage to do that then the only description that fits us when we claim to be the greatest nation on earth is the word that has been used in this thread many times: Arrogant.

And before you even ask: Why don't I leave? Because I believe this country can be the paragon of freedom that it boasts to be. And I refuse to let terrorists like UN Ambassador piss on the final embers of what this country is supposed to represent.
Well said!

Maybe patriotism is as empty as a bottle of wine in the hands of an alcoholic.

actually resonably soon there will be at least one other super power possibly more.

China is surging up in the power vacuum after the cold war

Europe is also surging up (though we're more an economic super power then a old fashioned one)

something seems to be happerning in japan at the moment (they seem to have gone just a bit militeristic at the moment)

south america is doing something that seems interesting

india seems to be building up to become a significant part of the equation.

basicly america is slipping from dominance, you still have outright military superiority but economically your not that far ahead.
Your not even ahead economically. The EU has beaten you!

Or in other words:

Look, if you peace fanatics want to keep going back to ww2 because you cant back up your position any other way but to call me a facist and a nazi, fine. I think a few points ll duce made werent that far off though. He says we cant have perpetual peace, I disagree however I think war might be the only way to achieve that. In a way I feel sorry for you since you have no sense of honor or duty.

First of, I would have some seriuos difficulties defining my "home land". I'm part Austrian, part German. I spent some time in Canada, and am now living in Ireland. I like all of these places, but to kill for them? No. To die for them? Well, if it does serve a purpose, sure.


If you move around alot I can understand your lack of loyalty. However, Im born and breed here so its much easier for me.

What you need to have a look at is a book about the history of philosophy.

In there, you will find a man called "Hegel". Hegel was a German, who believed that there were great ideas in the world, and we people were, in a way, just instruments of those ideas, which would struggle against each other and eventually one would triumph (sorta like your PotUS: Freedom vs Terror).
Hegel also was around at a time when Germans became increasingly unhappy with not having a country. As a result, in an adaptation of Hegel and others like him, the idea of Romantic Nationalism was formed, where you would essentially make your nation one of those ideas, and they would struggle against each other and eventually fulfil their destinies. In other words, people started to talk about Germany, or France, or America as if they were people, not collections of individuals.

In America, that came out as "manifest destiny" (the idea of expanding into the West of the continent and beyond) and "American Exceptionalism" (the idea that America is unique and special in the world).
In Germany, that came out as Nationalism, Militarism and eventually Kaiser Wilhelm II. struggle for a place in the sun for Germany. As a result, we had WWI.

WWI destroyed Europe. It destroyed its society (monarchies fell, aristocracies were destroyed, revolutions came up everywhere), its religion (every church had said that god was with their respective country - instead god let people slaughter each other on an unbelievable scale), its people (particularly the veterans came back disturbed and broken) and its politics (countries were split up, conspiracy theorists had a field day, rational thinking was abandoned).

In many countries, that was enough to abandon Nationalism. Not so in Germany: Hitler utilised the exact same ideas that you have about the US, of a destiny, of being a great power, about Germany as the purest nation on earth, meant to be a leader, to create his regime.

We know how that ended, and this time, even the Germans got it. Nationalism is not cool. Nations are nothing but arbitrary lines, communities, bound together by interests if anything.

The problem is that the US never got it. Indeed, manifest destiny made them rich. The Monroe Doctrine made them an empire. And the wars made them powerful.
Nothing bad has ever happened to the States because of their nationalism. And I think that is why America acts the way it does, and why Europeans just can't understand. They say to themselves: "Have these guys learned nothing? How can they be so dumb?"

And all you can come up with in return is: "They're just jealous. God bless America!"

So the answer to my question would be 'NO" then? thats what I thought.

By doing so I make America stronger. By doing so I am a patriot. The reason that's bottle fed to us for the war in Iraq (for just one example) is to spread freedom. The War On Terror is the biggest swindle by the US government over it's own people in recent history. Then when does it end? When nobody hates the United States anymore? When everybody is too afraid we'll bomb them to hell?

And this "war" is the reason for doing away with one of the most basic and essential freedoms such as no illegal search and seizure without probable cause? It seems inevitable that if a war that can never possibly end is the reason for doing away with a basic freedom, then it can and will be the justification for doing away with the rest of them.


I'll admit that since I'm not a terrorist this domestic spying crap has not affected me yet. YET! But we cannot wait for such violations of our rights to directly affect us.

By then it will be too late. WE CANNOT DO WHATEVER WE WANT just because we happen to be the United States of America.

So YES, domestic spying and torture SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC. If we're going to be using freedom as an excuse for seizing other countries oil then the very least we can do is practice what we preach. The United States is fallable. The more we American's deny this simple fact the truer it becomes. It is our duty as American citizens and American PATRIOTS to be aware of civil rights violations and hold our leaders accountable for violating them. If we don't have the courage to do that then the only description that fits us when we claim to be the greatest nation on earth is the word that has been used in this thread many times: Arrogant.

And before you even ask: Why don't I leave? Because I believe this country can be the paragon of freedom that it boasts to be. And I refuse to let terrorists like UN Ambassador piss on the final embers of what this country is supposed to represent.
Alot of hot air I need to put down(agian) so here I go:
Your not making our stronger, you are weakening us and our resolve to fight this war. It is a very real war that threatens our very exsistence, no matter how many quotes you put it. I can tell you exactly who we are fighting, every islamic extremist in the world and it will not be over until will kill them all or make it impossible for them to hurt us. It will be a long, hard fought war, but as Americans we need to be ready to serve.

No one is taking away your freedoms, they are nessecary tools to fight terrorism, what are you afraid of? are you a terrorist or something?

Actually we can do what we want, we are a superpower remember?

Those issues SHOULDNT have been made public, it hurts our efforts to fight this murderous foe. There is so much most civilians dont know or would understand, its better that way. You should just let it go

You want to call me a terrorist!:mad: I am a PATRIOT, I would give my life for this country, I would kill for this country!! Im not pissing on freedom, I am defending it, which is more than I can say for you.

Look, if you peace fanatics want to keep going back to ww2 because you cant back up your position any other way but to call me a facist and a nazi, fine. I think a few points ll duce made werent that far off though. He says we cant have perpetual peace, I disagree however I think war might be the only way to achieve that. In a way I feel sorry for you since you have no sense of honor or duty.

Is that the only defense you have? Pouting because we compare you with other people who made the exact same statements? You haven't been called a Nazi, you were compared to one. I grew up with two of that kind, and I do know that lullaby, no matter what language it's presented in.
Considering the human psyche, no, perpetual peace is a pipedream. And promoting war to obtain it sounds a lot like 1984.

If you move around alot I can understand your lack of loyalty. However, Im born and breed here so its much easier for me.

I'm a very loyal person. But I don't pledge loyalty to any anonymus, outdated, impersonal concept as a nation state. I'm loyal to certain people and certain ideals, none of which will ever be incoporated in a country of any kind. Ideals die the monent they become a country.

Actually we can do what we want, we are a superpower remember?


Interestingly, the Romans thought that too...

Right through the Civil Wars, the Varian Disaster, the Second Punic War, the Boudiccan Revolt, the Vercingetorix Revolt every time they never stopped believing they could do what the hell they liked.

Boy was that a bad idea.

There is so much most civilians dont know or would understand, its better that way. You should just let it go

Ah, so if my government keeps secret torture camps it's better not to know. When they round up the Jews and send them to the gas chanbers it's better not to know. When there's no-one left to speak out for me it's good that they never knew they could.

What the hell kind of freedom is that?

Actually we can do what we want, we are a superpower remember?
...
You want to call me a terrorist!:mad: I am a PATRIOT, I would give my life for this country, I would kill for this country!! Im not pissing on freedom, I am defending it, which is more than I can say for you.
I thought your little masquerade as a fascist conservative was over? Or are you being serious now? :eek:

Ah, so if my government keeps secret torture camps it's better not to know. When they round up the Jews and send them to the gas chanbers it's better not to know. When there's no-one left to speak out for me it's good that they never knew they could.

What the hell kind of freedom is that?

It's called "national security", pal.

As an intelligence analyst in the US Army I have access to knowledge that I would love to put out there. And not all of it is pertinent to this - some of it is stories that I think should just be put out because the mainstream media tends to gloss over the success stories from the sandbox in favor of the bad stuff. But here's the thing; it's classified, and therefore my leaking it could end up being harmful to the national interests of the United States. That means that for the poor bastards out on the sharp end, my leaking this stuff could be very very ver bad.

Does this mean I condone torture? Hell no. But forcing the government to reveal every bit of what its doing will only harm us somewhere along the way.

It's called "national security", pal.

As an intelligence analyst in the US Army I have access to knowledge that I would love to put out there. And not all of it is pertinent to this - some of it is stories that I think should just be put out because the mainstream media tends to gloss over the success stories from the sandbox in favor of the bad stuff. But here's the thing; it's classified, and therefore my leaking it could end up being harmful to the national interests of the United States. That means that for the poor bastards out on the sharp end, my leaking this stuff could be very very ver bad.

Does this mean I condone torture? Hell no. But forcing the government to reveal every bit of what its doing will only harm us somewhere along the way.


So, this whole 'accountability' thing is worthless. Good to know. Right, there are some things you do not reveal, military secrets and the like remain that way, usually they don't matter anything to me anyway. The latest tech in the latest jet fighter will not impact my life for 20 years if it ever finds a civil application.

Secret prisons and the like though? No way Jose. If one citizen of my country is locked up and I can't find out where or why (with limits, young offenders maybe, or those at risk of public violence) then that's a danger to the civil liberties of every person in the nation. And be damned if there's ever such a thing as 'secret evidence'. Justice must be done and justice must be seen being done.

The United States are the worst country that exists in this moment, i rather live in haiti as a homeless, than living in the US. All the people of the US are assasins, directly or indirectly. Because your government goes destroying all the nations that it doesn´t like, and the US people don´t do anything to stop it, they just sit to watch CNN, to see how the people die because of the government that they have choosen. The US says that they defend freedom, but just look at south america, thay have put dictators in almost all the nations, and because of this dictators thousands of people were tortured and killed, much more than the attack on the Twin Towers, and even worst because they didn´t die so quickly. Even if from the military dictatorships on south america have passed more than 15 years ago, the US continues attacking countries that had done nothing to the US people. The US seems to have assimilated fascism when they attacked Germany and Italy in world war II. I feel pity for the people of the US and for the people of the world that have to live whit a fascist superpower that in any moment can attack and destroy your country, kill you family and torture you. I really think that if the people of US dislike the government so much, it should rise and make, by the reason or the force, the government change.

There are only two things about America I hate. It's policies and the Christian Right.

The rest is pretty alright, whatever may be included in "the rest".

Ok America is deffinently the best country rather you like that or not. Its better than any European Country and all of there Economy's. Yeah sure our economy went down but if you had a major disaster like Katrina or 9-11. you would be screwed. And any country is lucky to have the US as a friend. Europe is lucky we even helped them defeat Hitler. Maybe we should have just let Soviet Union take it over. The only country who deserves to be there in Europe is the UK and any other US allies. And also. China and the world would go in failure if America was knocked off the world.

Let's see...hating people based on religion or race=Hitler.
Killing innocents in foreign lands=Hitler.
Invading Countries On Baseless Reasons=Hitler.
Knowing Whatever The Hell His People Did Every Second Of Their Lives=Hitler.

Hating People Based On Religion Or Race=Bush.
Killing Innocents In Foreign Countries=Bush.
Inading Countries For Baseless Reasons=Bush.
Knowing Whatever The Hell His People Does Every Second Of Their Lives=Soon To Be Bush.

The United States are the worst country that exists in this moment, i rather live in haiti as a homeless, than living in the US. All the people of the US are assasins, directly or indirectly. Because your government goes destroying all the nations that it doesn´t like, and the US people don´t do anything to stop it, they just sit to watch CNN, to see how the people die because of the government that they have choosen. The US says that they defend freedom, but just look at south america, thay have put dictators in almost all the nations, and because of this dictators thousands of people were tortured and killed, much more than the attack on the Twin Towers, and even worst because they didn´t die so quickly. Even if from the military dictatorships on south america have passed more than 15 years ago, the US continues attacking countries that had done nothing to the US people. The US seems to have assimilated fascism when they attacked Germany and Italy in world war II. I feel pity for the people of the US and for the people of the world that have to live whit a fascist superpower that in any moment can attack and destroy your country, kill you family and torture you. I really think that if the people of US dislike the government so much, it should rise and make, by the reason or the force, the government change.

First, learn what fascism is. Second, realize that there is no country in the world that hasn't committed atrocities in its past (remember the British Empire? Or France? Or the USSR?). Thirdly, remember that if you lived in Haiti, you probably wouldn't be on a computer and you definitely wouldn't be able to criticize the Haitian government since at present the nation is in a state of quasi anarchy, and they don't take kindly to subversives.

by far the biggest GDP of any country.

All kinds of horrible things can go into the GDP. If we decided to jail anyone unemployed for more than a month that'd increase the GDP. Mothers who leave their kids in the care of others for more than half their waking hours from birth on increase the GDP by putting childcare in the marketplace. GDP is by no means a foolproof indicator of economic health, and certainly not any other kind of national health.

The United States are the worst country that exists in this moment, i rather live in haiti as a homeless, than living in the US. All the people of the US are assasins, directly or indirectly. Because your government goes destroying all the nations that it doesn´t like, and the US people don´t do anything to stop it, they just sit to watch CNN, to see how the people die because of the government that they have choosen. The US says that they defend freedom, but just look at south america, thay have put dictators in almost all the nations, and because of this dictators thousands of people were tortured and killed, much more than the attack on the Twin Towers, and even worst because they didn´t die so quickly. Even if from the military dictatorships on south america have passed more than 15 years ago, the US continues attacking countries that had done nothing to the US people. The US seems to have assimilated fascism when they attacked Germany and Italy in world war II. I feel pity for the people of the US and for the people of the world that have to live whit a fascist superpower that in any moment can attack and destroy your country, kill you family and torture you. I really think that if the people of US dislike the government so much, it should rise and make, by the reason or the force, the government change.



You are quite possibly the most ignorant person I have ever heard. Please research the things of which you assert, before making such claims. And for the love of god work on your grammar.

Has America truly ever invaded a country and made it a better place? Your administration managed to roll over Germany, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan in the last 60 years and none of them are a better place than they have been in the past (with the possible exception of Germany, but then again the whole Allied block had a say in how that went down). Roosevelt, Kennedy and Clinton are the only presidents I have ever had any respect for, because they actually made the world a better place. I see us all as global citizens, not as nationalists or whatever.

UN "Abassadorship", at which point does it become illegal to not let the public know about crimes the government are committing in secret? Torture prisons? Gas chambers? Where does this madness stop? Bush has amended the constitution of the United States 146 times now, just so he can flaunt the law and get his own way. That's more than any other President in history. Since your whole countries' principles are founded on the Constitution (or so I am led to believe), shouldn't changing it this many times be illegal? Unconstitutional maybe?

Also to UN "Abassadorship" - do you actually disagree with Bush on anything whatsoever? Or is it more blind faith? And where exactly do you draw the line for Islamic extremists? People who take their religion seriously? Or only when they've gone to a 'Terrorist Training Centre' in the Middle East?

Are you from Texas by the way? The people there tend to stand out from other American's by being very pro-Bush to the point of, well, extremism?

Oh yes, on this whole Hitler-Bush thing:

What's the difference between Bush and Hitler?

Hitler got elected.

Old joke, but I feel it is appropriate.

First, learn what fascism is. Second, realize that there is no country in the world that hasn't committed atrocities in its past (remember the British Empire? Or France? Or the USSR?). Thirdly, remember that if you lived in Haiti, you probably wouldn't be on a computer and you definitely wouldn't be able to criticize the Haitian government since at present the nation is in a state of quasi anarchy, and they don't take kindly to subversives.

The fascism was the government that Benito Mussolinni imposed on Italy pre world war II, but the term is sometimes used (as i do) to refer to a represive kind of government, like the nazism on Germany, imperial japan, franco´s spain, etc... I used it to refer to the represive (whit other countries) US government. I know what all these countries did, but that doesn´t means that those things were right. I know how is Haiti in this moment, but i prefer a country in anarchy than a country that doesn´t respet the rest of the world.


You are quite possibly the most ignorant person I have ever heard. Please research the things of which you assert, before making such claims. And for the love of god work on your grammar.

Please, if you make acusations, please be clear and say the reasons that you have to think like that. From the south american dictatures, i know what i´m talking, i live in a country that have only 15 years of democracy since the last dictatorship that your government put, and much people were tortured and killed. Finnaly, i don´t write good english, because it´s not my language, but i think that you undestand anyway.

First, learn what fascism is. Second, realize that there is no country in the world that hasn't committed atrocities in its past (remember the British Empire? Or France? Or the USSR?). Thirdly, remember that if you lived in Haiti, you probably wouldn't be on a computer and you definitely wouldn't be able to criticize the Haitian government since at present the nation is in a state of quasi anarchy, and they don't take kindly to subversives.

Sealand. There's a country with a clean slate.

Let's see...hating people based on religion or race=Hitler.
Killing innocents in foreign lands=Hitler.
Invading Countries On Baseless Reasons=Hitler.
Knowing Whatever The Hell His People Did Every Second Of Their Lives=Hitler.

Hating People Based On Religion Or Race=Bush.
Killing Innocents In Foreign Countries=Bush.
Inading Countries For Baseless Reasons=Bush.
Knowing Whatever The Hell His People Does Every Second Of Their Lives=Soon To Be Bush.
Christ, can you people not use Hilter or ww2 just one time when your trying to defend your "position"

Christ, can you people not use Hilter or ww2 just one time when your trying to defend your "position"

It allows a quick general reference. Not everybody here knows who Kublai Khan (although the last name would give it away) Suleiman or any other eccentric dictarorish rulers, except for Hitler.

Christ, can you people not use Hilter or ww2 just one time when your trying to defend your "position"
So what would you like us to do? You positions are those of a proto-fascist at the very least, and we're not allowed to tell you?
And besides, the entire Nazi-discussion just revolves around trying to show you that the US has lost its way and is by no means any of the things it was meant to be.

Well then, why not go down the road of telling you that current US Policy is dumb?

1) Putting Oil Magnates into the leadership does not help with getting the US off its oil addiction.
2) Pissing off your only real friends and allies in the world is not good for US interests. The EU is a huge market and a huge exporter. Creating 400 million new Anti-Americans cannot be good in any category.
3) You squandered all the goodwill you had after 9/11, turning you into the most-hated country on earth. The principles that made people love America once are gone, and they get eradicated with torture camps, surveillance agencies and all the rest of it. How long do you think immigrants will continue to come if this continues?
4) Instead of less terrorism, we now have more terrorism in the world. In Iraq alone, an entire generation of well-trained, well-equipped terrorists, now with even better knowledge of how the media works, is being trained and will continue to train. You can do nothing about it.
5) Meanwhile, the country with the other big batch of nukes, Russia, is turning into an authoritarian father-knows-best state, designing new and superior weaponry and selling it to anyone who's got the funds.
6) The Chinese are eating you alive, growing and consolidating while you're spending trillions on overseas adventures.
7) At home, the divisiveness of Bush's decisions creates a rift in society so deep that I have no idea how it could be mended. And corporations are taking over politics with their lobbygroups and campaign contributions.
8) Instead of coming forward in a global leadership position to deal with environmental degradation, you are the number one adversary to any policy regarding environmental protection.
9) Meanwhile, millions and millions die from starvation and preventable diseases, millions more than die from terrorism all around the world. The US doesn't care, and when it does, only in exchange for political or economic concessions.
10) Your education system sucks. The Indians and Chinese will end up pumping out highly qualified academics and engineers from any branch, while in the US getting into a good school turns into a matter of having the right parents and/or being rich.

How do you defend any of these things? How can you still believe that the US is not in a crisis?

Has America truly ever invaded a country and made it a better place? Your administration managed to roll over Germany, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan in the last 60 years and none of them are a better place than they have been in the past (with the possible exception of Germany, but then again the whole Allied block had a say in how that went down). Roosevelt, Kennedy and Clinton are the only presidents I have ever had any respect for, because they actually made the world a better place. I see us all as global citizens, not as nationalists or whatever.

UN "Abassadorship", at which point does it become illegal to not let the public know about crimes the government are committing in secret? Torture prisons? Gas chambers? Where does this madness stop? Bush has amended the constitution of the United States 146 times now, just so he can flaunt the law and get his own way. That's more than any other President in history. Since your whole countries' principles are founded on the Constitution (or so I am led to believe), shouldn't changing it this many times be illegal? Unconstitutional maybe?

Also to UN "Abassadorship" - do you actually disagree with Bush on anything whatsoever? Or is it more blind faith? And where exactly do you draw the line for Islamic extremists? People who take their religion seriously? Or only when they've gone to a 'Terrorist Training Centre' in the Middle East?

Are you from Texas by the way? The people there tend to stand out from other American's by being very pro-Bush to the point of, well, extremism?

Oh yes, on this whole Hitler-Bush thing:

What's the difference between Bush and Hitler?

Hitler got elected.

Old joke, but I feel it is appropriate.

Not a better place? christ, we got rid of Hilter, prevented S.Korea from falling into communism and stopped the spread of communism in vietnam. We freed millions of Iraqis and Afghanis from murderous regimes, as well as disrupting and destroying groups like al-Qeada.

Gas Chambers? I swear the nazi references never stop. Thats a little extreme and I think you know that. The simple fact is that its better for some things to remain secret to ensure the safety of the nation. As for the ammendent issue this is the first Im hearing of this so I cant comment.

I disagree on Bush on number issues; taxes cuts for the very rich(although middle class tax cuts are good), abortion, stem cells, gay marriage, the enivironment, hes not tough enough on illegal immigration and too tough on gun control. Im sure theres others but I cant remember. Anyone who supports Islamic terrorist organizations or willing to carry out attacks based on their faith are islamic extremists.

I cant claim the honor of being from the great state of Texas, however I do live in a very "red" state.

It's pretty scary that 22% hate America. I can understand how you can hate a person, food product, or ideology... but hating something as abstract as a nation: that's odd.

I'm bush like. America is ... um the best country in the world. Because she has George W. Bush as a leader. And Bush is the smartest man in the world. He has good moral and christian family values. He is a conservative individual. He is a republican. He can take over countries, "George Bush does not care about black people"-West, he does wonders for the economny. The no child left behind act. Those are just a few of Bush's accomplishments and Americas. So all you people that dont like america can go join the Tourisits.

So what would you like us to do? You positions are those of a proto-fascist at the very least, and we're not allowed to tell you?
And besides, the entire Nazi-discussion just revolves around trying to show you that the US has lost its way and is by no means any of the things it was meant to be.

Well then, why not go down the road of telling you that current US Policy is dumb?

1) Putting Oil Magnates into the leadership does not help with getting the US off its oil addiction.
2) Pissing off your only real friends and allies in the world is not good for US interests. The EU is a huge market and a huge exporter. Creating 400 million new Anti-Americans cannot be good in any category.
3) You squandered all the goodwill you had after 9/11, turning you into the most-hated country on earth. The principles that made people love America once are gone, and they get eradicated with torture camps, surveillance agencies and all the rest of it. How long do you think immigrants will continue to come if this continues?
4) Instead of less terrorism, we now have more terrorism in the world. In Iraq alone, an entire generation of well-trained, well-equipped terrorists, now with even better knowledge of how the media works, is being trained and will continue to train. You can do nothing about it.
5) Meanwhile, the country with the other big batch of nukes, Russia, is turning into an authoritarian father-knows-best state, designing new and superior weaponry and selling it to anyone who's got the funds.
6) The Chinese are eating you alive, growing and consolidating while you're spending trillions on overseas adventures.
7) At home, the divisiveness of Bush's decisions creates a rift in society so deep that I have no idea how it could be mended. And corporations are taking over politics with their lobbygroups and campaign contributions.
8) Instead of coming forward in a global leadership position to deal with environmental degradation, you are the number one adversary to any policy regarding environmental protection.
9) Meanwhile, millions and millions die from starvation and preventable diseases, millions more than die from terrorism all around the world. The US doesn't care, and when it does, only in exchange for political or economic concessions.
10) Your education system sucks. The Indians and Chinese will end up pumping out highly qualified academics and engineers from any branch, while in the US getting into a good school turns into a matter of having the right parents and/or being rich.

How do you defend any of these things? How can you still believe that the US is not in a crisis?

Bush isnt a nazi, not even close, so it annoys me when him or our country is compared to one. At least you put forth a semblence of what could be seen as an argument w/o the nazi stuff, however:
1)Bush laid out a clear plan on how to get off oil, it going to work
2) we have no real allies with the execption of the maybe the British
3)Id be happy if we didnt get any new immigrants to tell you the truth. If people cant understand that the war after 9/11 doesnt stop at Afghanistan, so be it.
4)Terrorist are being killed off quicker than they can be recruited and "trained"
5)If Russia becomes a problem, we with deal with them
6)The Chinese are going to collapse soon
7)I agree with you there, campigan reform is important
8)I admit our environmental policy does need a little revision
9)Why should we give money to ineffective, dangerous, or corrupt governments or countries?
10)Is that why foreigners are dying to get into American universities? The fact is they are the best in the world.

You want to call me a terrorist!:mad: I am a PATRIOT, I would give my life for this country, I would kill for this country!! Im not pissing on freedom, I am defending it, which is more than I can say for you.

You ignorant little fuck! Don't you realise that's the exact same fucking thing every terrorist says and thinks? You are no better then Osama Bin Laden or a man who blows up a crowd of children. You are the lowest of humanity, and I am ashamed to even share a race with you. You are what is getting humanity damned to hell, you are what will kill us all.

The US says that they defend freedom, but just look at south america, thay have put dictators in almost all the nations, and because of this dictators thousands of people were tortured and killed, much more than the attack on the Twin Towers

This is true.

Ok America is deffinently the best country rather you like that or not.

Bullshit. Let's evaluate this topic by topic:

Freedom: the US currently is BEHIND much of the developed world in terms of rights for citizens. Also, our government is one of the most intrusive.

Standard of living: the Us current has one of the highest poverty rates, and the highest rich-poor gap of any developed country. Also, we are the only developed country to not provide garenteed health care to all citizens.

The best? By what standard? GDP? We're not #1 in GDP, and even so, that doesn't mean a good standard of living, and many economists are turring away from it as a defunct and outdated standard of measure.

You lose.

The only country who deserves to be there in Europe is the UK and any other US allies.

Without France, the US would never exist. So the "we saved you in WWII" argument is bullshit.

...remember that if you lived in Haiti, you probably wouldn't be on a computer and you definitely wouldn't be able to criticize the Haitian government since at present the nation is in a state of quasi anarchy...

Due in no small part to the US military. They have a hand in lots of dirty little dealing like that.

Christ, can you people not use Hilter or ww2 just one time when your trying to defend your "position"

We are comparing you to someone who you have things in common with. It is hardly an unfair tactic.

How about if we said you couldn't use "terrorism" when trying to defend your "position"?

stopped the spread of communism in vietnam. We freed millions of Iraqis and Afghanis from murderous regimes, as well as disrupting and destroying groups like al-Qeada.

We lost Viet Nam wholesale. The whole damn contry fell to Ho Chi Minh. Also, our interference cause the Viet Minh to get closer to Moscow and Bejing, rather then remain entirly independent of both. So all we did in Viet Man was murder millions, fuck up a farming peasent populace and a nation's environment for years to come, and strengthend the power of the USSR. Congradu-fucking-lations. Was it worth the millions of lives?

O right, you have no regard for human life.

As for Afganistan and Iraq, in Afganistan we got rid of the Taliban, but we gave most of the country back to factions just as oppressive, and to poppy runners and thugs.

In Iraq, we've hired back most of the worst butchers of Saddam's days, and random arrest, torture, and sumery executions are common.

We have turned the country into a war zone, it's not even safe to walk the streets.

Hundreds of thousand were killed by our attack. Scores of innocent civilian are killed at checkpoints every day. The infastructure is in ruins, people don't have food, water, electricity, medicine, and people are suffering and dieing for it.

Instead of rebuilding Iraq by giving contracts to perferctly able Iraqi firms, all the "rebuilding" contracts went to political allies of those in power, and in many cases right into those decisionmaker's pockets.

Cheany is still technically employed by Halliburton, they just have his salery on hold. So everytime Halliburton gets a contract, Cheany gets richer. Every time the Carlyle group gets a contract, the Bush family gets richer.


Fuck your patriotism. This is wrong and needs to be faught against, no matter who is doing it.

You ignorant little fuck! Don't you realise that's the exact same fucking thing every terrorist says and thinks? You are no better then Osama Bin Laden or a man who blows up a crowd of children. You are the lowest of humanity, and I am ashamed to even share a race with you. You are what is getting humanity damned to hell, you are what will kill us all.

We lost Viet Nam wholesale. The whole damn contry fell to Ho Chi Minh. Also, our interference cause the Viet Minh to get closer to Moscow and Bejing, rather then remain entirly independent of both. So all we did in Viet Man was murder millions, fuck up a farming peasent populace and a nation's environment for years to come, and strengthend the power of the USSR. Congradu-fucking-lations. Was it worth the millions of lives?

O right, you have no regard for human life.

As for Afganistan and Iraq, in Afganistan we got rid of the Taliban, but we gave most of the country back to factions just as oppressive, and to poppy runners and thugs.

In Iraq, we've hired back most of the worst butchers of Saddam's days, and random arrest, torture, and sumery executions are common.

We have turned the country into a war zone, it's not even safe to walk the streets.

Hundreds of thousand were killed by our attack. Scores of innocent civilian are killed at checkpoints every day. The infastructure is in ruins, people don't have food, water, electricity, medicine, and people are suffering and dieing for it.

Instead of rebuilding Iraq by giving contracts to perferctly able Iraqi firms, all the "rebuilding" contracts went to political allies of those in power, and in many cases right into those decisionmaker's pockets.

Cheany is still technically employed by Halliburton, they just have his salery on hold. So everytime Halliburton gets a contract, Cheany gets richer. Every time the Carlyle group gets a contract, the Bush family gets richer.

Fuck your patriotism. This is wrong and needs to be faught against, no matter who is doing it.

I am interested in the fact that you use the word "we" in sense that your actually American. If thats the case, how can you hate your country that much? You disgrace this nation and everything it stands for.

Im no better than bin Laden? You do realize I support the people that hand out the candy to kids, not the murderous fools that blow them up. We didnt hire back butchers, we brought free elections to a long oppressed people. Their intastructure isnt in shambles, it is getting built up more and more, it just doesnt make the news because they only like to cover the negatives. In fact about 75% of the country is stable with almost no attacks, its not a total war zone. You make it seem like the whole place is a mess and thats just flat out false, talk to anyone thats been there or a Iraqi on the street and chances are they'll tell you they're better off now then before. That whole "bush did it to get rich" b.s. is so stupid Im not even going to waste my time.

We won the Veitnam war, whether you like to admit it or not. The US won EVERY SINGLE ENGAGMENT with the vc. Also if you remember the mission wasnt to defeat the north or even to make the south democratic, it was to prevent the spread of communism, mission accomplished.

My patriotism doesnt need to be fought against, its people like me that keep this country safe. What need to be fought against are people like you with no sense of pride or responsbility to the nation that has given so much and all you do whine, not giving anything back.

I am interested in the fact that you use the word "we" in sense that your actually American. If thats the case, how can you hate your country that much? You disgrace this nation and everything it stands for.

For trying to make it a better place rather than attacking others for saying it's not perfect? You have a very strange concept of "perfect" then. Only your opinion counts, and everybody else is unpatriotic?


Im no better than bin Laden? You do realize I support the people that hand out the candy to kids, not the murderous fools that blow them up. We didnt hire back butchers, we brought free elections to a long oppressed people. Their intastructure isnt in shambles, it is getting built up more and more, it just doesnt make the news because they only like to cover the negatives. In fact about 75% of the country is stable with almost no attacks, its not a total war zone. You make it seem like the whole place is a mess and thats just flat out false, talk to anyone thats been there or a Iraqi on the street and chances are they'll tell you they're better off now then before. That whole "bush did it to get rich" b.s. is so stupid Im not even going to waste my time.

So, what you are saying is that 25% of the country are in utter turmoil, whereas the other 75% only have some attacks? And you regard that as a success?
I don' presume to know why Bush did it, but he didn't do it to help Iraqis. Although he seems quite happy to use the excuse nowadays, it was never ever mentioned before he started the war. Remember? All the hype about supposed WMDs? Suspicions aroused by a single truck on a satelite pic?


We won the Veitnam war, whether you like to admit it or not. The US won EVERY SINGLE ENGAGMENT with the vc. Also if you remember the mission wasnt to defeat the north or even to make the south democratic, it was to prevent the spread of communism, mission accomplished.

If you're really from a miltary family, you ought to know that you can win every battle and still lose the war.
And the "prevent the spread of communism" is a rather ridiculous argument, as all you basically did was meddle with the internal democratic processes of other countries, that may or may not have decided for or against communism. It's a bit like blowing up all of New York to make sure the terrorists won't do it.


My patriotism doesnt need to be fought against, its people like me that keep this country safe. What need to be fought against are people like you with no sense of pride or responsbility to the nation that has given so much and all you do whine, not giving anything back.

Funny... you do sound an awful lot like a fanatic Islamist. If you replace the word "Islam" with the word "USA", that is. No criticism allowed, a blind follower, happy to kill and die for it...

Without France, the US would never exist. So the "we saved you in WWII" argument is bullshit.

Actually, there were plenty of nations that would've enjoyed punching Britain in the nads. Like, say, Spain.

If you asked every single person in the world, far more would say America is a violent, dictorial country that spends disproportionate amounts on maintaing occupation forces and clings on to 19th centruy ideas right down to the day to day lives of its citizens (and I'd be one of them).

I'll make it VERY clear that America is by no means the worst, or even bad; American advances in science and medicine have done the world good all over, and they made The Simpsons, but these amazing achievements have been overshadowed in recent years by Mr. Bush, unfortunatley.

Actually, there were plenty of nations that would've enjoyed punching Britain in the nads. Like, say, Spain.

Only they didn't, did they?

FINALLY! Someone who says something right for a change! As I've stated earlier, the Americans during WW2 didn't do SQUAT. They cleaned up the leftovers from the British, nothing more. And who was it that in the end forced a grenade down Franz's throat? Not the Americans, they weren't even there... But the Soviets. The US soldiers didn't really have such a hard time as all your movies and games wants to tell us. It was the British, Soviet and all the countless freedom fighters who stopped the German warmachine... NOT the Americans with your inferior tanks and weapons!

Well then who fought the Japanese? Who won in the Pacific? Oh wait. It was America with their inferior tanks and weapons. Gasp. And who did the first and only launch of B-25 bombers off of aircraft carriers? Us. Yeah we did some stupid stuff in WWII but so did a lot of other countries. And everyone had a hard time in that war. Were you in it? 'Cuz if you weren't, then how would you know? Too many people lose their lives over meaningless wars. Aren't all wars pointless anyway? Even the ones not fought by the Americans?

America isn't the greatest country but it's where I was born. I'm not proud of Bush or of how he runs this country, but he's not the majority. He's our leader, but a lot of people don't like him. I don't know how he got re-elected, but maybe it's all a big conspiracy! Soon they'll be putting chips in our heads to keep us in line! Oh noes.

Anyway, America isn't better than say, the UK, but I guess it's better than living on an island infested with cannibals. ^^

You might just be ignorant about how the world works, no offense. Theres alot that goes that you dont know about, its better that way. that spy thing should never been made public, we keep handing the terrorists our playbook, and we are gonna get burned. Also those bad people do not have the right to freedom as they are(in most cases) not US citizens.
Don’t have the right to freedom because they are not US citizens? That is about the most arrogant comment I've ever read on these forums. Still, I have visited many countries in the world including America and I am aware not all Americans share your ( worrying ) view. America would not be my first choice to live in if I decided to move out of the UK (even if I became a citizen with a 'right to freedom' because it lacks something. The thing is, I cannot put my finger on what it is. Maybe I should visit it again and try another area. No, I think there are still some other places I'd like to visit (and re-visit).

Anyone who supports Islamic terrorist organizations or willing to carry out attacks based on their faith are islamic extremists.

You are willing to carry out attacks based on your 'patriotism' though aren't you?

And you destroyed Vietnam, and Afghanistan, and Iraq and then left them to rot. At least during Saddam's era you could go out to the shops without the fear of being blown up or shot as a suspected bomber. Please don't invade any more countries, let people like Britain, the EU or even China do it if it must be done for the good of the international community. Note that there are practically no bombings in the British sector of Iraq compared to the American sector. At least we wouldn't destroy the whole country and then run back home realising it was a failure. We don't kill as many friendly soldiers either.

Christ, can you people not use Hilter or ww2 just one time when your trying to defend your "position"


Not a better place? christ, we got rid of Hilter,



Gas Chambers? I swear the nazi references never stop.

:D

Originally Posted by The UN abassadorship
those bad people do not have the right to freedom as they are(in most cases) not US citizens.

Originally Posted by The UN abassadorship
Im not pissing on freedom, I am defending it,

We can see that.

Allthough there is not realy a single inventor of gas masks the first where used by Alexander von Humboldt when he was working in the coal mines in Prussia. As for TV. Paul Gottlieb Nipkow patentet the first electromechanical Tv in 1885. Neither of them where British. As for the rest I don't have time to look it up. But wasn't the WWW/internet pioneered in Switzerland?

Sir Tim Berners-Lee devised hyper-text transfer protocol which is how the web works and he's a brit (he was working in switzerland tho!)

I felt like making a post about all the good America does. s America!


It's a myth that foreigners hate America.

I don't live in America.

I never visited.

But still...

May God bless America!

Why would you need more nukes? Aren't there enough already to destroy this planet several times?

several times is not enough.

Sealand. There's a country with a clean slate.

Lovely is another country with a clean slate as well.

It's a myth that foreigners hate America.

I don't live in America.

I never visited.

But still...

May God bless America!

Sure, why not? If they need it that badly... ;)

Originally Posted by Von Witzleben
Allthough there is not realy a single inventor of gas masks the first where used by Alexander von Humboldt when he was working in the coal mines in Prussia. As for TV. Paul Gottlieb Nipkow patentet the first electromechanical Tv in 1885. Neither of them where British. As for the rest I don't have time to look it up. But wasn't the WWW/internet pioneered in Switzerland?
So we take a concept, improve upon it, and call it our invention? All Paul Gottlieb did then, was to take a Faraday Wheel (British invention, Faraday) add some electro mechanical bits say an electric motor (British invention,Faraday ) and presto, a TV. That is not an invention. If I take a car and weld a motorbike to the front I have not invented anything have I ?
Alexander Bain may be worth a mention too.

Bush isnt a nazi, not even close, so it annoys me when him or our country is compared to one.
No, you're not a Nazi. You're a proto-fascist. Like Ludendorff was at the end of WWI in Germany.

Personally, I don't think Bush is enough of an intellectual challenge to even count. The man is dumb, and has never managed anything by the work of either his own brain, or his own two hands. He would've been better off if head stayed with the baseball team his friends bought for him.

The people I'm worried about are Cheney, Rumsfeld and company. Those guys are actually intelligent men - with views that I find absolutely appalling.

1)Bush laid out a clear plan on how to get off oil, it going to work
How?

2) we have no real allies with the execption of the maybe the British
Yeah, I heard that one before. It's not true. You may wish to have a look at history, and see who your friends are, before you alienate them completely over a banality like their disagreement with the Iraq Invasion.

3)Id be happy if we didnt get any new immigrants to tell you the truth. If people cant understand that the war after 9/11 doesnt stop at Afghanistan, so be it.
You know what America without immigrants is? Dead.

4)Terrorist are being killed off quicker than they can be recruited and "trained"
Hardly. Right now, after three years of the US Forces having spent billions and billions, their best weapons and men and no diplomatic, technological or ethical boundaries placed on them Zarqawi has created an alternative, even more violent Al Qaeda and he's got all the time in the world to wait for you to leave.

5)If Russia becomes a problem, we with deal with them
What do you think of the Uzbek government?

6)The Chinese are going to collapse soon
I told you before: The Chinese have been going to collapse soon since 1949.
Don't hold your breath.

9)Why should we give money to ineffective, dangerous, or corrupt governments or countries?
Because there are double the number of people killed in 9/11 dying from dirty water every single day. You could fix that for the price of two or three B-2 Bombers.
It's not about the governments, it's about the people.

10)Is that why foreigners are dying to get into American universities? The fact is they are the best in the world.
Some of them. For now. And I haven't heard of anyone dying to get in (if you discount the soldiers in Iraq who just signed up to try and get discounts and on their uni loans).
Ultimately, coming from Harvard doesn't automatically make you any better than coming from Beijing State. On the other hand, Beijing State churns out tens of thousands, Harvard doesn't. And after a few years of practical experience, they are all equally well-suited to anything asked of them.

May God bless America!
Especially the south! *SCNR*

Nah, come on, why does America need that blesing so much? God bless Eritrea and God Bless Djibouti!

I was pretty sure that our Oxbridge Universities in the UK were the best in the world, along with Beijing and Paris. American universities turn out people like Bush. IQ of 92. Wow.

Here's what I don't get: Americans give away the credit for all the best food we've invented. "Chinese food," "Italian food" like American pizza, "French fries," all that good stuff...we oughta stand proud, baby, because we are the fucking champions of food that's made to kill ya.

Is it VERY scary that I recognise Bottle's sig and its inference?

Im no better than bin Laden? You do realize I support the people that hand out the candy to kids, not the murderous fools that blow them up.
I thought you said you supported the Us army-the US army that BLEW UP thousands of innocent Men Women and Children in iraq, Afganistan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, Chilie, latin America. America supports the 'kill squads' on the streets of Brazil that puick off homeless children to free up the streets. if you support America you support those acts of butcery-those acts of evil. Whast the diffrence between blwoing up a child with a suicide bomb and setting there skin on fire with namplam?

Their intastructure isnt in shambles, it is getting built up more and more,
It's still wirse than in the days of Saddam isn;t it?
In fact about 75% of the country is stable with almost no attacks, its not a total war zone. Thats because 75% of Iraq is desert! The citys are where the violence is happebing-after all whast the point in blowing up sand?


We won the Veitnam war, whether you like to admit it or not.
No, you didn't. Winning a war is achiving your objectives, you didn't do that. you LOST. You pulled out-gave up, ran off home. The US won EVERY SINGLE ENGAGMENT with the vc.
Wrong. Several times you lost, the Tet offenisve being one example, sure you manged to claw it back, but only after the VC had taken over your Embassy!

Also if you remember the mission wasnt to defeat the north or even to make the south democratic, it was to prevent the spread of communism, mission accomplished.
Stop the spread of communism. Just remind me, didn't Vietnam become communist after you withdrew. Didn't the north win?

My patriotism doesnt need to be fought against, its people like me that keep this country safe. What need to be fought against are people like you with no sense of pride or responsbility to the nation that has given so much and all you do whine, not giving anything back.
It'd your nationalism that needs to be forght agains. It's people like you that casue the world wars. it's 'patriots' that killed hundreds of people. it's people like you that are going to ruin your country.

Wrong. Several times you lost, the Tet offenisve being one example,

The Tet Offensive is generally known as a US victory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive <- here.

Note the words:

Decisive ARVN, American and allied forces victory

At first I thought that US Ambassadorship was just acting like an idiot to start an argument. Now, after 40+ pages of his garbage, I am completely disgusted and ashamed to be lumped into the same category as him...American. People like UN Ambassadorship and Bush & Co. have done extensive damage to America's image in the world view. I would encourage those from other countries to realize that not all Americans are as ignorant as these people(look to Bush's falling approval rating as a sign). To anyone that is still diluted with all of the propoganda, think about this selection from an article on fascism:

Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Copyright © 2003 Free Inquiry magazine
Reprinted for Fair Use Only.

After having waded through more unintelligent, semi-intelligent, and even a few intelligent arguments, I now must present my next topic of discussion in relation to this thread.

Admittedly, many of us do not like Bush. That's great. Some may support him. Also great. However, let's look at the bigger picture. According to the rules and regulations of American government, Bush is no longer allowed to run for the Presidential office. Therefore, why not do what we can to maintain the civil rights of all humans (note, not just Americans) but also look forward to correcting the problems in the long run? Attacking Bush and his policies now will only solve short-term issues. Instead, Americans, and non-Americans should converse together over whom would best fit the next presidency. Whom shall American citizens vote for in order to repair damages obtained? Whom shall American citizens vote for to renew the overall view of the United States of America?

Granted, as I've stated before, I am American, but I also truly think that this nation needs a huge dose of realism. I am a realist, and I often make a concerted effort to stand back and take a look at what is going on in the world, and the flow of cause and effect. After doing so, I then make an educated effort to find some means of action that will benefit all involved the most.

Such a perspective has helped me well as a shift manager at a local restaurant (it's a temporary job while I'm trudging through university). It may only be a restaurant, but on a much smaller scale, it's a nation unto itself. What will one do to improve the economy? What will one do to ensure the company/nation will survive through the tough times? What does it take? What will be the resulting effects on everything you do (not just on the immediate consequences, but also on collateral consequences)?

I'll tell you.

Intelligence, and down-to-earth understanding of the world around oneself.

EDIT: I half wonder if I should become a political science major in conjunction with being a fine arts major...

I am honestly not sure, but I think America needs to move towards the centre in terms of right-left politics. Their image will otherwise be damaged by the policies they will pursue otherwise. Most of the world is now at least liberal or even moderately left-wing, and so I think America needs to get rid of it's constant unfounded anti-left slant and think about social equality throughout their society.

Especially the south! *SCNR*

Nah, come on, why does America need that blesing so much?


They may not need it... but they sure do deserve it.

And yes, Rejistania:

http://www.eteamz.com/GODblesstheUSA/images/God-Bless-America.jpg

I am honestly not sure, but I think America needs to move towards the centre in terms of right-left politics. Their image will otherwise be damaged by the policies they will pursue otherwise.

I don't think that America should go towards these policies on the measure of 'the world will like us'. Actually, choosing any policy based on 'people will like me more' is silly, even in your personal life.

So, this whole 'accountability' thing is worthless. Good to know. Right, there are some things you do not reveal, military secrets and the like remain that way, usually they don't matter anything to me anyway. The latest tech in the latest jet fighter will not impact my life for 20 years if it ever finds a civil application.

Secret prisons and the like though? No way Jose. If one citizen of my country is locked up and I can't find out where or why (with limits, young offenders maybe, or those at risk of public violence) then that's a danger to the civil liberties of every person in the nation. And be damned if there's ever such a thing as 'secret evidence'. Justice must be done and justice must be seen being done.

No, accountability is why we have groups like the Intelligence Oversight Committee. And, let's see here, I'll just publish the location of this jail where I'm holding these people who I caught shooting at my battle buddies so their buddies can come and bust them out of jail. Right.

In fact, you proved my point for me. There are situations where that course of action is justified. Should we simply suck criminals into a black hole of a prison system from which no information gets out? Hell no. But should we sequester those to whom we feel the public knowledge of their whereabouts could put them, their prisonmates, their guards, etc., or even dare I say it the nation in danger? You do the math.

I don't think that America should go towards these policies on the measure of 'the world will like us'. Actually, choosing any policy based on 'people will like me more' is silly, even in your personal life.

True. Following a policy like that will make you look extremely untrustworthy and false (ok, even moreso than right now).
Personally, I would wish that America would actually engage in communication with the international community, promoting an international democratic process and simply stop throwing it's weight around. You can be the big bully or a big brother (no, no Orwell reference), it's up to you.

You are willing to carry out attacks based on your 'patriotism' though aren't you?

And you destroyed Vietnam, and Afghanistan, and Iraq and then left them to rot. At least during Saddam's era you could go out to the shops without the fear of being blown up or shot as a suspected bomber. Please don't invade any more countries, let people like Britain, the EU or even China do it if it must be done for the good of the international community. Note that there are practically no bombings in the British sector of Iraq compared to the American sector. At least we wouldn't destroy the whole country and then run back home realising it was a failure. We don't kill as many friendly soldiers either.

"Left them to rot"?! What the---?! Listen, there are soldiers on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan not only hunting terrorists, but also building critical infrastructure for both countries, providing sophisticated medical care, etc. This country is spending billions of dollars in making sure those countries that we invaded will be able to stand on their own feet, keep their citizens alive, and be able to defend themselves before we leave totally. "Left them to rot" my ass. Tell that to the Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, and Airmen who are over there and see what reaction you get.

:D
wow, your really great at taking quotes completely out of contex, I noticied you did that in another post,too . way to go buddy:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]No, you're not a Nazi. You're a proto-fascist. Like Ludendorff was at the end of WWI in Germany.
Call me what you want, wanna make me out to be the bad guy because I stand for something, fine

The people I'm worried about are Cheney, Rumsfeld and company. Those guys are actually intelligent men - with views that I find absolutely appalling.

Why are they appalling, those men are true patroits willing to do whatever nesscary to defend America.
How?
By put resources into finding and excelling new forms of energyYeah, I heard that one before. It's not true. You may wish to have a look at history, and see who your friends are, before you alienate them completely over a banality like their disagreement with the Iraq Invasion.
You said it, history. All thats in the past, right now we cant trust anyone.

You know what America without immigrants is? Dead.
Actually I think we'd be better of without immigrants, they take American jobs and threaten our security.

Hardly. Right now, after three years of the US Forces having spent billions and billions, their best weapons and men and no diplomatic, technological or ethical boundaries placed on them Zarqawi has created an alternative, even more violent Al Qaeda and he's got all the time in the world to wait for you to leave.

We will find him and kill him, along with all his idoit followers.

What do you think of the Uzbek government?
I could care less about them

Because there are double the number of people killed in 9/11 dying from dirty water every single day. You could fix that for the price of two or three B-2 Bombers.
It's not about the governments, it's about the people.

But why should we give aid when the Government is going to keep all the money or food for itself or only to people they want?

Some of them. For now. They will keep coming, because we will continue to be the best.

Here's what I don't get: Americans give away the credit for all the best food we've invented. "Chinese food," "Italian food" like American pizza, "French fries," all that good stuff...we oughta stand proud, baby, because we are the fucking champions of food that's made to kill ya.

most of what you mention here are adaptations. americian "chinese" food is applying chinese style cooking methods to americian ingredients. developed by chinese immigrants. french fries are likely belgian in origin (pommes frites). the mcdonald style whipped potatoe flaked "fries" in most certainly americian. pizza, most certainly americian, is a derivative of classic mediterranean flatbread recipes.

incidentally, the ceaser salad is mexican.

[QUOTE]I thought you said you supported the Us army-the US army that BLEW UP thousands of innocent Men Women and Children in iraq, Afganistan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, Chilie, latin America. America supports the 'kill squads' on the streets of Brazil that puick off homeless children to free up the streets. if you support America you support those acts of butcery-those acts of evil. Whast the diffrence between blwoing up a child with a suicide bomb and setting there skin on fire with namplam?
You must be one of those lower life forms that considers brave soldiers "baby killers" yeah, the US got rid of the guy that had rape rooms and mass graves and we are the bad guy, please.
It's still wirse than in the days of Saddam isn;t it?
Not even close, talk any average Iraqi. They dont have to worry about being killed for expressing there religious or political views and no longer fear a hated government.

Thats because 75% of Iraq is desert! The citys are where the violence is happebing-after all whast the point in blowing up sand?
I was talking about 75% of the cities, in the Kurdish north and Shi'ia south it is almost completely safe, these areas have large international make up in terms of sercurity forces, if you remember it wasnt just the US that went in. 3 or 4 central cities are still giving us some trouble but we are making progress, its cliche but we do have to stay the course.

No, you didn't. Winning a war is achiving your objectives, you didn't do that. you LOST. You pulled out-gave up, ran off home.
Stop the spread of communism. Just remind me, didn't Vietnam become communist after you withdrew. Didn't the north win?

I told you before the objective wasnt to make the south democratic or beat the north, it was stopping it from spreading out of vietnam. Granted the south fell, but it didnt go past that point did it? You even said it, winning war is achieving the objective, we did. Do the math we won that war. The only reason we had to leave was because of the hippies back home messing with our resolve, same crap thats what is going on now.

It'd your nationalism that needs to be forght agains. It's people like you that casue the world wars. it's 'patriots' that killed hundreds of people. it's people like you that are going to ruin your country.
why? sometimes wars need to be fought and people have to die to protect the country. This doesnt ruin the country, it strenghtens it.

I told you before the objective wasnt to make the south democratic or beat the north, it was stopping it from spreading out of vietnam. Granted the south fell, but it didnt go past that point did it? You even said it, winning war is achieving the objective, we did. Do the math we won that war. The only reason we had to leave was because of the hippies back home messing with our resolve, same crap thats what is going on now.

.
why? sometimes wars need to be fought and people have to die to protect the country. This doesnt ruin the country, it strenghtens it.

*lol

That's one thing I always found particularly amusing about Americans at war. They're motives never are the same after the war than the ones they gave when they began it. Take any war you want, from the war of independence "Taxes? No, this was never about taxes. What gave you the idea? And where's Boston, anyway?", through to the civil war "The slaves. It always was about freeing the slaves, I tell you!", to World War II "We came to liberate you from Hitler, be grateful you miserable little turds" and to Vietnam "We never really wanted to win that war, that was never the objective. We just fried half the country and the population to make sure they stay at home with their political ideas"

So we take a concept, improve upon it, and call it our invention? All Paul Gottlieb did then, was to take a Faraday Wheel (British invention, Faraday) add some electro mechanical bits say an electric motor (British invention,Faraday ) and presto, a TV. That is not an invention. If I take a car and weld a motorbike to the front I have not invented anything have I ?

Well, be glad then he didn't do that.

*lol

That's one thing I always found particularly amusing about Americans at war. They're motives never are the same after the war than the ones they gave when they began it. Take any war you want, from the war of independence "Taxes? No, this was never about taxes. What gave you the idea? And where's Boston, anyway?", through to the civil war "The slaves. It always was about freeing the slaves, I tell you!", to World War II "We came to liberate you from Hitler, be grateful you miserable little turds" and to Vietnam "We never really wanted to win that war, that was never the objective. We just fried half the country and the population to make sure they stay at home with their political ideas"

There are always reasons for the wars we fought, not always transparent reasons, but always good valid ones. Independance wasnt about taxes, it was freedom, the civil war wasnt about slaves, it about keeping the union together. They should be glad we got rid of hilter, and if you know your history you'd know Veitnam wasnt about winning, it was about containment from the start. And even if reasons change, it doesnt mean that those reasons cant be valid.

There are always reasons for the wars we fought, not always transparent reasons, but always good valid ones. Independance wasnt about taxes, it was freedom, the civil war wasnt about slaves, it about keeping the union together. They should be glad we got rid of hilter, and if you know your history you'd know Veitnam wasnt about winning, it was about containment from the start. And even if reasons change, it doesnt mean that those reasons cant be valid.

Independance was pre-dominantly taxation, the freedom is historiographic conjecture, and fallacy for the most part.

Incidentally, why do you perenially allude to the Second World War? We civilzed your nation, the Greeks gave you democracy, and the Frecnh your freedom, yet do we remind you of those and exact thanks?

There are always reasons for the wars we fought, not always transparent reasons, but always good valid ones. Independance wasnt about taxes, it was freedom, the civil war wasnt about slaves, it about keeping the union together. They should be glad we got rid of hilter, and if you know your history you'd know Veitnam wasnt about winning, it was about containment from the start. And even if reasons change, it doesnt mean that those reasons cant be valid.

Changing the reasons to justify the war is nothing more than revisionism and a weak attempt to maintain moral highground after the original reasons were publicly proven to be insufficient to legitimate the aggression. Or, in the case of Iraq, the costs.

Independance was pre-dominantly taxation, the freedom is historiographic conjecture, and fallacy for the most part.

Incidentally, why do you perenially allude to the Second World War? We civilzed your nation, the Greeks gave you democracy, and the Frecnh your freedom, yet do we remind you of those and exact thanks?
It doesnt matter why the independence war was fought, it was still a great war. The greeks didnt give us democracy the founding fathers did, and the French havent given us anything but headaches and frustration.

It doesnt matter why the independence war was fought, it was still a great war. The greeks didnt give us democracy the founding fathers did, and the French havent given us anything but headaches and frustration.

Sure, the founding fathers completely reinvented it, as they had never heard of ancient Greece and it's political systems before. :rolleyes:
And thanks for that brilliant display of historical awareness...

Changing the reasons to justify the war is nothing more than revisionism and a weak attempt to maintain moral highground after the original reasons were publicly proven to be insufficient to legitimate the aggression. Or, in the case of Iraq, the costs.

I know what your getting at, because people like you wont shut up about this. We thought Iraq had WMD's so did ALL of Europe, he had used them before. The intel was wrong, get over it. We have an important job to do now and it doesnt mean we were any less wrong about going in there and taking care of business.

It doesnt matter why the independence war was fought, it was still a great war. The greeks didnt give us democracy the founding fathers did, and the French havent given us anything but headaches and frustration.
Read some history, it might help. The Founding Farthers got there idea of democracy from the greeks-so your type of democracy comes from the greeks.

YOu wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the French. they saw the war as indipendance as a way of beating the British and so supllied the Americans with everything they needed-including the statue of liberty.

Sure, the founding fathers completely reinvented it, as they had never heard of ancient Greece and it's political systems before. :rolleyes:
And thanks for that brilliant display of historical awareness...
Just because the Greeks invented it doesnt mean they gave it to us directly in the way we directly removed hilter.

I know what your getting at, because people like you wont shut up about this. We thought Iraq had WMD's so did ALL of Europe, he had used them before. The intel was wrong, get over it. We have an important job to do now and it doesnt mean we were any less wrong about going in there and taking care of business.

No, actually, it does make you wrong, because it means that you invaded a sovereign state without UN mandate and without justification. Legally speaking, a case for the international War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague...
And yes, I do appreciate that for once, you are seemingly going to finish what you started and make an effort to stabilise the region rather than leaving it in the mess you created and expect the international community to sort it out.

Read some history, it might help. The Founding Farthers got there idea of democracy from the greeks-so your type of democracy comes from the greeks.

YOu wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the French. they saw the war as indipendance as a way of beating the British and so supllied the Americans with everything they needed-including the statue of liberty.

Technically they got their idea of democracy from us as well - based on our constitution from the Glorious Revolution and its fall-out. Though we probably got it from the Greeks. Just a technicality which I never even knew until a week ago, when our Making History teacher informed us of it.

But it's true that, for all the France bashing, the US most likely would still be a British colony if not for French aid.

if you know your history you'd know Veitnam wasnt about winning, it was about containment from the start.

containment?

like the patho-lao victory in laos? the khmer rouge victory in cambodia? the fall of south vietnam (whos integrity was one of the main reasons for involvment)?

yeah. some containment.

Just because the Greeks invented it doesnt mean they gave it to us directly in the way we directly removed hilter.

They wrote it down, your founding fathers read it. How much more direct can you get when it comes to political systems?
And Hitler commited suicide. ;)

They wrote it down, your founding fathers read it. How much more direct can you get when it comes to political systems?
And Hitler commited suicide. ;)
And the Soviet Stalinists removed him-not the US!

Also, I believe it was the Russians who 'removed' Hitler directly. US and British forces stopped on the Elbe River.

And the Soviet Stalinists removed him-not the US!

Correct... now how much more indirect can you get?

Correct... now how much more indirect can you get?

Two to One odds this gets ignored.

No, actually, it does make you wrong, because it means that you invaded a sovereign state without UN mandate and without justification. Legally speaking, a case for the international War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague...
And yes, I do appreciate that for once, you are seemingly going to finish what you started and make an effort to stabilise the region rather than leaving it in the mess you created and expect the international community to sort it out.
I could care less about a UN mandate, what are they gonna do about it? We have all the justification we need. The hague? hahaha come on, seriously? Last I check the US wont join that international court(thank god).

I could care less about a UN mandate, what are they gonna do about it? We have all the justification we need. The hague? hahaha come on, seriously? Last I check the US wont join that international court(thank god).

And you are actually surprised that the USA has hardly an ally left on the planet? You should rather be surprised that you don't have more enemies...

I could care less about a UN mandate, what are they gonna do about it? We have all the justification we need. The hague? hahaha come on, seriously? Last I check the US wont join that international court(thank god).
The Hague and the newly formed international court are two separates entities.

It doesnt matter why the independence war was fought, it was still a great war. The greeks didnt give us democracy the founding fathers did, and the French havent given us anything but headaches and frustration.

So what was the British rule then, monarchy? Not by the 1700's I would wager.

Incidentally, you won the revolutionary war entirely by virtue of French intervention, they utilised you to curtail British power in the new world, and had they not intervened, frankly the British victory would have been maginificent.

I could care less about a UN mandate, what are they gonna do about it? We have all the justification we need. The hague? hahaha come on, seriously? Last I check the US wont join that international court(thank god).

I'm with Cabra on this actually. Why do you deplore your unpopularity and the natipathy directed at the USA, yet deride the intsruments utilised by the remainder of the world?

Containment eh? So rather than despotic socialist regimes you got despotic capitalist regimes. Actually, the socialists tended to be on their way to democratic victory when 'containment' kicked in.

Last time I talked about this subject I went on abrief flaming spree so I'll try to keep this civil.

I know people who lost their families in Indonesia to psychotics like Suharto. Dead, or worse 'missing' because they happened to believe a different set of values.

If the US could have learnt one thing from Stalin it would be 'never give power to a revolutionary'. Because revolutionaries are, by nature ruthless, verging on paranoid and aggressive. And yet, time and again they did. 9/11 in Chile, El Salvador, Indonesia, large slabs of Africa, all under the power of reolutionary despots just because they had the dollar bill on their flag.

Ooh, let's not forget Iraq and Iran while we're at it either. Or Afghanistan while I think about it.

...directly in the way we directly removed hilter.

actually, most of the "removing" was done by the red army.

Two to One odds this gets ignored.
Sure you mean odds? Or might you mean probability?

So what was the British rule then, monarchy? Not by the 1700's I would wager.

Incidentally, you won the revolutionary war entirely by virtue of French intervention, they utilised you to curtail British power in the new world, and had they not intervened, frankly the British victory would have been maginificent.
I second this.

So you invade Iraq on the grounds of WMDs even though you bloody well know that North Korea has nuclear weapons? Or was it somehow because Iraq has oil and North Korea doesn't? How can you be proud of a country of which it's intelligence services can manage to find WMDs in North Korea, the most shut-off state in the entire world, but not find them in Iraq which has had UN weapons inspectors visiting since the early 90's?

Oh yes, a few pages back UN Abassador you said that gas chambers were taking it to extremes. Where would you draw the line exactly? When your family members start getting taken away half way across the globe to be tortured on the vague assumption that they might have terrorist connections?

And you did leave Vietnam to rot. The quality of life in Vietnam right now would be much higher had the extremist Americans not gone in and napalmed the whole place. Hang on, napalm is a chemical weapon, so surely with evidence like this the US should not be allowed WMDs?

Iraq invades Iran using WMDs - Their WMDs get taken away for good.
America invades Vietnam with WMDS - They get to keep thousands of nuclear weapons for no good reason.

Your administration's morals are brilliant. Unsurprising with that monkey in charge.

Call me what you want, wanna make me out to be the bad guy because I stand for something, fine
I'm putting things into context, in a probably vain attempt to cure you of your black and white world-view.

Why are they appalling, those men are true patroits willing to do whatever nesscary to defend America.
Exactly. Especially if they have to remove everything American from America and leaves something on the map that barely resembles what used to be there.

You said it, history. All thats in the past, right now we cant trust anyone.
Why not? Aren't the Europeans working together with you on Iran?

Actually I think we'd be better of without immigrants, they take American jobs and threaten our security.
http://www.schildersmilies.de/noschild/laughoutloud.gif

We will find him and kill him, along with all his idoit followers.
You haven't, and you won't. There will always be another one - and you just fail to grasp it. Terrorism cannot be fought with weapons because it is not material. It only happens in people's minds.

I could care less about them
Indeed. Did you know that Rumsfeld wants to move the Ramstein Airbase into Uzbekistan because Germany isn't trustworthy enough anymore?
And did you know that just last year the Uzbek government had a pro-democracy protest shot? And that the government there is just as bad in its torture methods as Saddam's was?
Defend freedom my butt.

But why should we give aid when the Government is going to keep all the money or food for itself or only to people they want?
Listen, you can go there and dig a well. No government in the world can stop you from digging a well. And a well can't be misused.

They will keep coming, because we will continue to be the best.
Empty words. You're going to have to give me some evidence.

Just because the Greeks invented it doesnt mean they gave it to us directly in the way we directly removed hilter.
God...this last statement is really starting to make me think you're a forum puppet.

THE RUSSIANS REMOVED HITLER. Actually, Hitler killed himself, so nobody directly removed Hitler besides himself.

Guess what? This is the damned world, not the "United States of the World." We have no jurisdicition anywhere else in the world, unless they are directly a threat to us. Iraq was not a threat to us. And if you claim they really did have WMDs, then you are an idiot.

I am interested in the fact that you use the word "we" in sense that your actually American. If thats the case, how can you hate your country that much? You disgrace this nation and everything it stands for.

Yes, I am an American, I live just outside of DC. YOU disgrace this country, YOU disgrace everything it's *supposed* to stand for. Yes yes, you'll kill and die for it, as you've said time and time again. Doesn't make you a patriot, doesn't put you in the right.

Im no better than bin Laden? You do realize I support the people that hand out the candy to kids, not the murderous fools that blow them up.

But you think and talk just like those who blow them up.

And the Us has killed hundrends of Iraqi children children, by the by.


We didnt hire back butchers

Yes we did. The Iraqi security force was so quickly thrown together that we ended up hiring pretty much anyone who showed up. Including members of Saddam's secret police squads.

Their intastructure isnt in shambles, it is getting built up more and more, it just doesnt make the news because they only like to cover the negatives. In fact about 75% of the country is stable with almost no attacks, its not a total war zone. You make it seem like the whole place is a mess and thats just flat out false, talk to anyone thats been there or a Iraqi on the street and chances are they'll tell you they're better off now then before.

I have talked to several people who have been there. As you said, parts of the country are pretty calm, but in other areas, people are afraid to leave their houses.

The eye witness reports I've seen on people not being able to get their wounded kid to a hospital because the Americans are shooting at everything that moves in the streets, or have already blown up the hospital are staggering.


That whole "bush did it to get rich" b.s. is so stupid Im not even going to waste my time.

So what you're saying is, "I have no counter to your cold facts, so I will just give up." Fair enough.

The point still stands that no-bid contracts went to US companies that were all tied to someone within the administration, instead of able Iraqi firm, which would have done much more to to rebuild Iraq, physically and economiclly. But that's not our goal. We had an oppertunity to make Iraq economically stable and independent, but instead we made sure all the money went to the US, and that Iraq remains economically dependent on us.

No, Bush didn't do it to get rich. He already is, and he was not the only decision maker. The Bush administration as a whole did it to make themselves, their families, and their business associates more money, to increse the power of the US, and by extention their own, which was thei goal in the first place.

We won the Veitnam war, whether you like to admit it or not. The US won EVERY SINGLE ENGAGMENT with the vc. Also if you remember the mission wasnt to defeat the north or even to make the south democratic, it was to prevent the spread of communism, mission accomplished.

You damn right our goal wasn't to make the South democratic. We fucking canceled the election and installed a brutal dictater living in New York. Beacon of freedom and democracy my ass.

Our goal was to keep Viet Nam for our own influence, stop the Viet Minh from controling the whole country, and stop Soviet influence from spreading. We failed horribly on all 3 counts. We only brought Ho Chi Minh *closer* to the Russians or Chinese.

My patriotism doesnt need to be fought against, its people like me that keep this country safe.

It's people like you that make people want to crash planes into us.

What need to be fought against are people like you with no sense of pride or responsbility to the nation that has given so much and all you do whine, not giving anything back.

I have a strong sence of pride and responcibilty in myself, my family, my friends, and to all humans as a whole.

What has this country given me? Everything I have is a dircet result of my own labor or the labor of my parents. My family has never gotten a handout. We owe nothing to anyone, save God.

The only thing this country gives me is roads to drive on, police to protect/hassle me, and a school system. I pay my taxes, therefor you're "give nothing back" statement is bullshit. And I pay my taxes far out of preportion to those services I use. Most of the money I give to the government goes to corperate welfare and the war machine.


I noticed you didn't respond to the point about all the murdering dictaters we've put into power, all the South American death squads we've funded.

...or even China...

I'm sorry just.....no. China would be just as bad.

They may not need it... but they sure do deserve it.

And yes, Rejistania:

Everyone needs and deserves it. America is not special in God's eyes. America is irellivent in God's eyes. God deals in people. The New Testiment repeatedly says that country is irrelivent, only loyalty to your family, to your fellow human beings as a whole, and to God matters. The Bible tells you to go against the laws of your country if they conflict with the laws of God.

QUOTE=The UN abassadorship]
You must be one of those lower life forms that considers brave soldiers "baby killers" yeah, the US got rid of the guy that had rape rooms and mass graves and we are the bad guy, please.[/QUOTE]

I noticed that you didn't answer his accusations. We got rid of Saddam, but we also put into power many people with rape rooms and mass graves. That's a fact.


I told you before the objective wasnt to make the south democratic or beat the north, it was stopping it from spreading out of vietnam.

According to the US government, the opjectives were to beat the north, and to stop the whole country from becomming communist, and hold onto the rubber supply there. All that straight from the horse's mouth.

We failed on all counts.

Also, "communism" did spread to Cambodia, mainly because of our actions. The US HELPED spread "communism."


The only reason we had to leave was because of the hippies back home messing with our resolve, same crap thats what is going on now.

I though you belived in people fighting for something?


And if "our resolve" was weak enough to be broken by "the hippies," it obviously wasn't very strong in the first place.


They should be glad we got rid of hilter, and if you know your history you'd know Veitnam wasnt about winning, it was about containment from the start. And even if reasons change, it doesnt mean that those reasons cant be valid.

The Russians got rid of Hitler.

As for Viet Nam, that's not what the government says.

The greeks didnt give us democracy the founding fathers did, and the French havent given us anything but headaches and frustration.

Most of the decleration of independence and constitution, as well as the reasons for the American Revolution came straight from French philosophers. All the founding fathers did was realise it was a good idea, what the French came up with.

"Left them to rot"?! What the---?! Listen, there are soldiers on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan not only hunting terrorists, but also building critical infrastructure for both countries, providing sophisticated medical care, etc. This country is spending billions of dollars in making sure those countries that we invaded will be able to stand on their own feet, keep their citizens alive, and be able to defend themselves before we leave totally. "Left them to rot" my ass. Tell that to the Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, and Airmen who are over there and see what reaction you get.

The government is spending billions of dollars to have it all go right back the the GDP, and the pockets of the elite. We don't want them to stand on their own two feet. WE only want them to be stable enough to feed our economy, and to buy our products.

Iraq is getting alot of attention because it's become a political flashpoint. Arganistan, on the other hand, has been very much left to rot. Large parts of the country were given back to Islamic dictaters, poppie runners, and cruel despots.

Actually I think we'd be better of without immigrants, they take American jobs and threaten our security.

Take American jobs? No, they do not waylay you in the parkinglot, rifle through your pockets, find your job, take it, beat you senceless, and run off with it, leaving you unemployed. They get hired because they are willing to work hard for less money. That's not "taking" anything. That the market in action.

Also, they are easily exploited, and thus are more attractive to employers.

We will find him and kill him, along with all his idoit followers.

You haven't yet, and in fact you have only made more fallowers.

And the Soviet Stalinists removed him-not the US!
I answer this, so Im not ignoring it. you lose on those odds. The US may have not "physically" removed him, but our hard fighting made it possible. To put it this way, we pumped 30 rounds into the body of the Germans and the Russians just gave that one kill round, we would have gotten to him but the soviets were faster since they were closer. This whole direct indirect thing stems from the fact Europe should be thanking us for being that war, but if you want to be ungratful about it, fine.

And you are actually surprised that the USA has hardly an ally left on the planet? You should rather be surprised that you don't have more enemies...
I dont remember caring whether we had allies...

So what was the British rule then, monarchy? Not by the 1700's I would wager.

Incidentally, you won the revolutionary war entirely by virtue of French intervention, they utilised you to curtail British power in the new world, and had they not intervened, frankly the British victory would have been maginificent.
We would won that war whether the french helped us or not.

Containment eh? So rather than despotic socialist regimes you got despotic capitalist regimes. Actually, the socialists tended to be on their way to democratic victory when 'containment' kicked in.

Last time I talked about this subject I went on abrief flaming spree so I'll try to keep this civil.

I know people who lost their families in Indonesia to psychotics like Suharto. Dead, or worse 'missing' because they happened to believe a different set of values.

If the US could have learnt one thing from Stalin it would be 'never give power to a revolutionary'. Because revolutionaries are, by nature ruthless, verging on paranoid and aggressive. And yet, time and again they did. 9/11 in Chile, El Salvador, Indonesia, large slabs of Africa, all under the power of reolutionary despots just because they had the dollar bill on their flag.

Ooh, let's not forget Iraq and Iran while we're at it either. Or Afghanistan while I think about it.
capitalist regimes are always better than communists ones because they better serve our interests.

I answer this, so Im not ignoring it. you lose on those odds. The US may have not "physically" removed him, but our hard fighting made it possible. To put it this way, we pumped 30 rounds into the body of the Germans and the Russians just gave that one kill round, we would have gotten to him but the soviets were faster since they were closer. This whole direct indirect thing stems from the fact Europe should be thanking us for being that war, but if you want to be ungratful about it, fine.

The only thing we did was keep more Russians from dying. The Soviets would have won with or without our direct intervention: they had been doing do long before we landed at Normandy. Hell, Stalin wanted us to land sooner because we were 'in the war' but we weren't in the war.

I dont remember caring whether we had allies...

Some of us prefer friends to enemies: We will bury you.

I love my country... BUT NOT THE GOVERNMENT.. But no A$$ H@%$ is going to bad mouth it. stay in your own country if you dont like it.. when "s" hits the fan there dont ask the U.S.A for any help. as for thiss problem with terorrist's that whole damn nation should be eliminated. our friends in ISRAEL should just take over the middle east.. AS FOR WIRE TAPPING I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE.. N.KOREA SHOULD KEEP IT UP CAUSE YOUR NEXT... LONG LIVE AMERICA LAND OF THE FREE AND HOME OF THE BRAVE..

We would won that war whether the french helped us or not.

Well, us, but only because the Spanish would have helped us if the French didn't.

[QUOTE]So you invade Iraq on the grounds of WMDs even though you bloody well know that North Korea has nuclear weapons? Or was it somehow because Iraq has oil and North Korea doesn't? How can you be proud of a country of which it's intelligence services can manage to find WMDs in North Korea, the most shut-off state in the entire world, but not find them in Iraq which has had UN weapons inspectors visiting since the early 90's?

North Korea is a different situation but it has nothing do to with oil
Oh yes, a few pages back UN Abassador you said that gas chambers were taking it to extremes. Where would you draw the line exactly? When your family members start getting taken away half way across the globe to be tortured on the vague assumption that they might have terrorist connections?
When it comes to fighting terrorism, I think that issue is a blurred line in sense

And you did leave Vietnam to rot. The quality of life in Vietnam right now would be much higher had the extremist Americans not gone in and napalmed the whole place. Hang on, napalm is a chemical weapon, so surely with evidence like this the US should not be allowed WMDs?

The quality of life would be better if they werent commis, I dont see what the problem is with napalm, it could come in handy in the middle of baghdad,ya know

Iraq invades Iran using WMDs - Their WMDs get taken away for good.
America invades Vietnam with WMDS - They get to keep thousands of nuclear weapons for no good reason.

Iraq is a threat with wmd's, ours are a deterent

So what you're saying is that you want a bigger army (So you can kill us all!) and everyone wants to be an american fat head who eats at mcdonalds and watches tv all day, yer, i get ya!:rolleyes:

Iraq is a threat with wmd's, ours are a deterent

If Iraq had those weapons (which they didn't), they would have been used as a deterrent by Saddam against the US and Iran.

Think about it logically, if you're capable:

What would Saddam gain if he were to nuke the US out of the blue? Nothing.

What would be the best way to keep the US and Iran out of Iraq, keeping him in power? A nuke. The shear damage he would have been able to deal out against any invader would have made anything think two, three, or four times before they invaded.

So what you're saying is that you want a bigger army (So you can kill us all!) and everyone wants to be and american fat head who eats at mcdonalds and watches tv everyday, yer, i get ya!:rolleyes:

*hands you a home-made cookie*

I'm putting things into context, in a probably vain attempt to cure u of your black and white world-view.
I have a realist worldview instead of the idealist nonesense you believe in


Why not? Aren't the Europeans working together with you on Iran?
yeah, we will see when it comes time to lock n' load and get boots on ground, chances are they will back down


You haven't, and you won't. There will always be another one - and you just fail to grasp it. Terrorism cannot be fought with weapons because it is not material. It only happens in people's minds.
no, I told you before who and what we are exactly fighting, look it up

Indeed. Did you know that Rumsfeld wants to move the Ramstein Airbase into Uzbekistan because Germany isn't trustworthy enough anymore?
And did you know that just last year the Uzbek government had a pro-democracy protest shot? And that the government there is just as bad in its torture methods as Saddam's was?
Defend freedom my butt.

however, unlike Germany or Iraq, they better serve our interests

Listen, you can go there and dig a well. No government in the world can stop you from digging a well. And a well can't be misused.
They should be able to dig their own well

Empty words. You're going to have to give me some evidence.

no, you have to me edvince they wont

<snip>

Listen to the facist sing:
"Take hope here,
War is elsewhere,
You were chosen
This is God's land
Soon we'll be free
Of blot and mixture
Seeds planted by our
Forefather's hand."

-Rage Against the Machine, "Ashes in the Fall", The Battle of Los Angeles

First of all, what is this crap!

All the people of the US are assasins

I find this extremely offensive. how could anyone say that about an entire country? I’m sorry but that is way, way, way over the line!:mad:

Yes, I am an American, I live just outside of DC. YOU disgrace this country, YOU disgrace everything it's *supposed* to stand for. Yes yes, you'll kill and die for it, as you've said time and time again. Doesn't make you a patriot, doesn't put you in the right.

Actually I am right and a patriot, unlike you. And you didnt answer my question about why hate America so much.

But you think and talk just like those who blow them up.

And the Us has killed hundrends of Iraqi children children, by the by.
I think how to defend freedom, they think how to destory it. I say I will defend America, they say they will defend it. here we go the "baby killer" argument agian, even if kids did die, who cares, its an accident, get over it.

Yes we did. The Iraqi security force was so quickly thrown together that we ended up hiring pretty much anyone who showed up. Including members of Saddam's secret police squads.
They are all carefully screen actually


I have talked to several people who have been there. As you said, parts of the country are pretty calm
told you

The eye witness reports I've seen on people not being able to get their wounded kid to a hospital because the Americans are shooting at everything that moves in the streets, or have already blown up the hospital are staggering.
Americans arent shooting at everything in the streets, why is it that you never see the videos of Americans building state of the art hospitals?



So what you're saying is, "I have no counter to your cold facts, so I will just give up." Fair enough.

The point still stands that no-bid contracts went to US companies that were all tied to someone within the administration, instead of able Iraqi firm, which would have done much more to to rebuild Iraq, physically and economiclly. But that's not our goal. We had an oppertunity to make Iraq economically stable and independent, but instead we made sure all the money went to the US, and that Iraq remains economically dependent on us.

No, Bush didn't do it to get rich. He already is, and he was not the only decision maker. The Bush administration as a whole did it to make themselves, their families, and their business associates more money, to increse the power of the US, and by extention their own, which was thei goal in the first place.

Cold facts? if your idea of cold facts are radical left-wing consparcy theories, fine/

You damn right our goal wasn't to make the South democratic. We fucking canceled the election and installed a brutal dictater living in New York. Beacon of freedom and democracy my ass.

Our goal was to keep Viet Nam for our own influence, stop the Viet Minh from controling the whole country, and stop Soviet influence from spreading. We failed horribly on all 3 counts. We only brought Ho Chi Minh *closer* to the Russians or Chinese.

you should check the objectives agian pal

It's people like you that make people want to crash planes into us.
Its people like me that prevent people from crashing planes into us.


I have a strong sence of pride and responcibilty in myself, my family, my friends, and to all humans as a whole.
so no sense of pride or responbility to your country? thats what I thought

What has this country given me? Everything I have is a dircet result of my own labor or the labor of my parents. My family has never gotten a handout. We owe nothing to anyone, save God.

You owe your freedom, way of life, standard of living, safety, everything to this country, and all you've done is pay taxes, big freaking wow. Whatever happen to "ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country"


I noticed you didn't respond to the point about all the murdering dictaters we've put into power, all the South American death squads we've funded.

If those people serve our interests well, I dont see the problem.

First of all, what is this crap!



I find this extremely offensive. how could anyone say that about an entire country? I’m sorry but that is way, way, way over the line!:mad:

Americans are all ninjas. Don't be offended by it. Take pride in it, like I do. Next American Ninja Meeting is on Friday! No one be late! Or someone will have to go crazy-ape-ninja-postal on yer ass....

Americans are all ninjas. Don't be offended by it. Take pride in it, like I do. Next American Ninja Meeting is on Friday! No one be late! Or someone will have to go crazy-ape-ninja-postal on yer ass....

That reminds me, I need to get my ninja suit from the dry cleaners.

Thanks!

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: This thread is funny. Americans are funny......GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS ......where the hell is my gun....oh here it is i feel better now :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper:

That reminds me, I need to get my ninja suit from the dry cleaners.

Thanks!

Ninja Pride!

Originally Posted by The UN abassadorship

...here we go the "baby killer" argument agian, even if kids did die, who cares, its an accident, get over it.

If those people serve our interests well, I dont see the problem.


You're the cause of me to post for the first time in the forum after a month of just reading topics...

Your mentality is for the greater good of your country, not the greater good of humanity... If you have to kill a few thousand children and elect psycho dictators because it's in America's greater good, why not?

You, make me sick, and it's people like you that have destroyed our world. Thank you.

Why do you hate America. The government has the right to observe communication between citizens and those overseas. The torture issue and the secret prisons should never have been made public. Theres somethings the public doesnt need to know(believe me). You may not understand how the world works, sometimes bad people need to be hurt or killed for the safety of others.

China will not take over, when they let their dollar hit the market, it will colapse, along with the economy. The US will be #1 for a long time, dont worry.

That is the bombshell which will force ID into and Darwin's theory of evolution out of the classrooms.

I felt like making a post about all the good America does.

The United States doesn't do the world too much good. Its been repeated ad infinitim here - millions (if not billons) have died and suffered from dictatorships and corrupt regimes the US Governments established supported.

We have the biggest and best economy with by far the biggest GDP of any country.

Based on phantom economics - all that financial worth is established in non-tangible assets like brands and intellectual property.

We the strongest military and we spend 400 billion dollars a year on it(I think it should be more) and have over 3,000 nukes(should be more).

With the state of your public schools and health care system, you want more money to be spent on the military?

Besides, your $400 billion military cannot combat an insurgency whose heaviest weapon are piles of old artillery shells tied to cell phone detonators plus the odd RPG!

How exactly will having more nuclear weapons benefit the U.S? There is enough firepower to cover every inch of the earth with fallout!

We also have alot of freedom and a great quality of life.

You have never lived in inner city Detriot, or rural Georgia, have you? Thats America. The income levels and quality of life there is worse than plenty of other developing countries!

Your 'alot' of freedoms, which used to be the United States greatest strength is being constantly erroded by religious zealots and elitist billionaires who call working class people "peasants".

Our entertainment is the best in world and alot of people want to be like us.

If you're referring to the trash produced by Hollywood and record labels, you must be a total brainwashed drone who never bothers with intellectual entertainment.

"Alot of people want to be like us" - thats partly because the fantasy-world beautified image of America projected by the same Hollywood moguls.

God bless America!

I'm not a christian myself, but I know a thing or two about christianity. If God sees what the US Government and Right Wing Zealots tries to justify in his name I'm sure he'll be rather irate!

Actually I am right and a patriot, unlike you. And you didnt answer my question about why hate America so much.

I refer you to the lightbulb joke:


How many members of the Bush Administration are needed to replace a lightbulb?

The Answer is SEVEN: (1) One to deny that a lightbulb needs to be replaced, (2) one to attack and question the patriotism of anyone who has questions about the lightbulb, (3) one to blame the previous administration for the need of a new lightbulb, (4) one to arrange the invasion of a country rumored to have a secret stockpile of lightbulbs, (5) one to get together with Vice President Cheney and figure out how to pay Halliburton Industries one million dollars for a lightbulb, (6) one to arrange a photo-op session showing Bush changing the lightbulb while dressed in a flight suit and wrapped in an American flag, (7) and finally one to explain to Bush the difference between screwing a lightbulb and screwing the country.


I think how to defend freedom, they think how to destory it. I say I will defend America, they say they will defend it. here we go the "baby killer" argument agian, even if kids did die, who cares, its an accident, get over it.

Who cares if you die?

They are all carefully screen actually

You obviously don't know the first thing about Iraq.

Is this thread a joke or what? This guy cannot be serious, there can't actually be people walking the streets with these points of view. Reading through this stuff I have formed the opinion that The UN abassadorship must be some form of super mutated troll. In addition, I don't think The UN abassadorship is American at all. Afghan or Iranian maybe, trying to stir up a bit of hate against Americans.
BTW, what is an abassadorship?

I somehow feel it's rather pointless to continue arguing.
UN abassadorship seems to have the sole aim in life to unite not only the rest of the world, but also the majority of his own countrymen against him. I don't really know what form of psychosis that is, although it does seem pretty self-destructive.
On the other hand, maybe he's just getting off on the patriotic big talk.