NationStates Jolt Archive

Guys and Gals, you don't need to maintain the facade that while you oppose the war in Iraq, you support the troops that are there. Someone has done you the favor of being first to blink. The LA Times columnist, Joel Stein, leads off his column (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein24jan24,0,4137172.column)thusly,

I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.

Sure, he says some nice things later on, but isn't he really just making it easier for the angry and hard-left folks on the DailyKos (http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/1/20/175232/080/479?mode=alone;showrate=1#479)to say things like this?

Liberals shouldn't pretend to be in favour of the military (as a concept most liberals are instinctively against it) when we aren't. The military are 'special cirucmstances' - men who must do a dirty job when all other opportunities and options are exhausted. They aren't men to be lionised and put on a pedestal - they're like toilet cleaners: it's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it. There's nothing brave or noble about it - it's a dirty, degrading, inhuman affair, but one which is occasionally necessary.

This isn't anything new, the press has focused on a few isolated incidents that are supposed to represent the inability of the Army to jail and interrogate the enemy. They just haven't put such a fine point on their bias. How much longer until this is the mainstream liberal position?

http://www.othersteve.com/images/troll.jpg

Support for US Troops Wanes Among US Libs

If true, which is a troll I'm biting on, it's about fucking time.

All I did was collect a few things that are in 'print' and present them. Maybe there is another way to present this, but this suits me. I do believe there are a large number of American liberals that would love to say exactly this. Only the threat of having their patriotism questioned seems to restrain them.

Doesn't this remind you of a Seinfeld episode? There was one where the topic was homosexuals. Every time one of the main characters would let a innuendo like, "He's a little light in his shoes", it would immediately be followed by "Not that there's anything wrong with that!" So, too, do the Democrats feel bound to follow any defeatist pronouncement about the war in Iraq with a qualifier of "But I support the troops." It just seems that the effort it takes to continue that is a little too much for some of them.

All I did was collect a few things that are in 'print' and present them. Maybe there is another way to present this, but this suits me. I do believe there are a large number of American liberals that would love to say exactly this. Only the threat of having their patriotism questioned seems to restrain them.

Doesn't this remind you of a Seinfeld episode? There was one where the topic was homosexuals. Every time one of the main characters would let a innuendo like, "He's a little light in his shoes", it would immediately be followed by "Not that there's anything wrong with that!" So, too, do the Democrats feel bound to follow any defeatist pronouncement about the war in Iraq with a qualifier of "But I support the troops." It just seems that the effort it takes to continue that is a little too much for some of them.
Well, you collected two, the first of which was derided as Wanker of the Day (http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006_01_22_atrios_archive.html#113816743370852647) on the uber-conservative Atrios blog, and the second of whom is a single poster at Daily Kos, which boasts over 40,000 members. But yeah, I can see how you might find that to be a veritable tidal wave of liberal non-support.

I do believe there are a large number of American liberals that would love to say exactly this. Only the threat of having their patriotism questioned seems to restrain them.
I bet there is (except that they wouldn't be "liberal", because that means something completely different :p ).

I agree with this guy by the way. Always have. This "Support the Troops" notion is completely foreign to me.
These guys went there for whatever reasons. They are people like you and me. Ultimately, pretty much all of them agree with what is happening in Iraq (or so I believe), it's not like they were forced.

They are not heroes, they are not special, they are simply people who do their god-damned jobs. No more, no less.

I bet there is (except that they wouldn't be "liberal", because that means something completely different :p ).

I agree with this guy by the way. Always have. This "Support the Troops" notion is completely foreign to me.
These guys went there for whatever reasons. They are people like you and me. Ultimately, pretty much all of them agree with what is happening in Iraq (or so I believe), it's not like they were forced.

They are not heroes, they are not special, they are simply people who do their god-damned jobs. No more, no less.

Exactly - I don't really understand the whole idea in America where if you don't give the troops a load of respect you wouldn't give to a normal person then you are somehow a traitor. I'm sure there's a lot of great people in the British army, but i'm equally sure that a lot of them are troubled people with a violent temperament who are best off having their agression channeled and disciplined. As such, I don't have any particular respect for them or disrespect - although i'm glad some of them are out in another country and not living near me.

Guys and Gals, you don't need to maintain the facade that while you oppose the war in Iraq, you support the troops that are there. Someone has done you the favor of being first to blink.

How much longer until this is the mainstream liberal position?
Well, it is the LA Times, after all. I sincerely hope most liberals don't ever again accept this position of "killing the messenger" because they don't like the message.

Vietnam was enough for several lifetimes. :(

Vietnam was enough for several lifetimes. :(
Vietnam was different though in that so many of the kids there didn't choose to go, and probably didn't really agree with the war. So it really was unfair for them to get part of the blame.

The kids in Iraq now are different I think in that most of them genuinely believe in the war there, they chose to support them, and that ultimately, I'd think most of them are more on the Right than on the Left. That would make them legitimate targets for criticism. Not for spitting though. Not yet. ;)

Vietnam was different though in that so many of the kids there didn't choose to go, and probably didn't really agree with the war. So it really was unfair for them to get part of the blame.

The kids in Iraq now are different I think in that most of them genuinely believe in the war there, they chose to support them, and that ultimately, I'd think most of them are more on the Right than on the Left. That would make them legitimate targets for criticism. Not for spitting though. Not yet. ;)
I disagree--sure, some believe, perhaps even most believe, especially those on active duty. But the guardsman who signed up to be able to help his state when a local emergency struck? The kid who got into the Reserves to help pay for college? Now it gets a bit more hazy. And while many of them may have supported it at first, it's starting to look more like they're having second thoughts, especially once the WMD turned out to be a figment of Bush's imagination.

I almost pity anyone who ever spits on one of those young men or women in my presence ... almost, that is. :mad:

US soldiers are just doing their jobs, as previously mentioned.

I have no quarrel with them, and admire the skills that some of them possess. I also admire the skills that the military teaches those who serve and those who use the military as a stepping stone to a better place in life.

I will never refer to servicemen in general as baby-killers, nor will I ever spit on them. Some servicemen, yes, I would call baby-killers and spit on, but none that I'm aware of. (I might call a certain number facists or something and spit on them for Abu Graib.)

The people who I respect the most are the sailors and pilots of the Coast Guard, the men and women of law enforcement, and firemen/women and EMTs - the people who voluntarily put their lives at risk to save real lives, not illusory, hypothetical ones. (Note: That's not to say that military men and women mightn't, in the course of their duties, save a city from destruction or buy time for civilians to evacuate an area, but it isn't done as a general course of action.)

I'm personally a pacifist and against the current structure and intended use of the military. I'm generally opposed to any agressive force. That does not, however, mean that I hate the troops. I respect them as much as I respect any other person. I beleive they have made a poor descision, but I also beleive it is not my right to dictate their descision for them. As they are putting themselves in harm's way at the behest of the government, I would like to see as many of them kept well and alive as possible, without furthering the death toll of innocents to protect against a few murderers.

Most of all I'd say the first those writers was suffering from an inability to express a complex and frustrating idea and have resorted to striking back at militarists (which is not to say those who care for the troops, but those who beleive that caring about the troops must also mean caring for their mission and expressing slavish nationalism) in a blunt and shock-tactic-esque way. In many ways, while I agree with the core idea of the second (That supporting the troops doesn't mean slavishly worshiping them as idols or supporting what they have to do) I think that he probably ought to have presented his ideas more intelligently, rather than falling to demagougery.

Long story short: I support the troops as fellow human beings and men in a difficult position, but I do no support the existance of an agressive military or it's mission. Not only is that possible, it is reasonable.

I thought my favourite Albert Einstein quote would fit in well here. I think there is a lot of truth in it...what do you think?

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

Support for US Troops Wanes Among US Libs

If true, which is a troll I'm biting on, it's about fucking time.

:upyours:

I disagree--sure, some believe, perhaps even most believe, especially those on active duty. But the guardsman who signed up to be able to help his state when a local emergency struck? The kid who got into the Reserves to help pay for college? Now it gets a bit more hazy. And while many of them may have supported it at first, it's starting to look more like they're having second thoughts, especially once the WMD turned out to be a figment of Bush's imagination.

I got to agree with Neu Leonstein and Laenis on this one I'm afraid. If you join the military, you know what you're getting yourself in for. Its a risk but a calculated one.

I don't weep everytime I step off the bus, thanking the driver profusely for doing a job well done, nor do I shed a tear with pride everytime the postman calls-- they do they're jobs like everyone else. The military calls for danger and those who volunteer and join of their own free will should know the consequences.

:upyours:
You must be pretty new if you think Fass cared about your smiley.

Fact of the matter is that NS General as a whole is not a place that does Patriotism a lot. There are too many people from too many different countries here for US Patriotism to have any leg to stand on.

And Fass really is right...the idea that you are against the war in the US is so untenable partly because you always have to add "I support the troops, though", when really the only reason for it is silly social pressures. So in a way, the sooner the anti-war movement (as much as I might disagree with the idea of leaving Iraq too soon) sheds this burden, the better for them.

I disagree--sure, some believe, perhaps even most believe, especially those on active duty. But the guardsman who signed up to be able to help his state when a local emergency struck? The kid who got into the Reserves to help pay for college? Now it gets a bit more hazy. And while many of them may have supported it at first, it's starting to look more like they're having second thoughts, especially once the WMD turned out to be a figment of Bush's imagination.
The data that I see quoted in favor of opposition to the occupation of Iraq is usually that initial enlistments are down. Re-enlistments are sky high. I don't know if that includes the reserves, although anyone who joins the reserves or National Guard solely to pay for college made the wrong move.

A new slogan might be in order -- "The National Guard -- We Don't Just Shoot College Kids, Anymore."

Well, you collected two, the first of which was derided as Wanker of the Day (http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006_01_22_atrios_archive.html#113816743370852647) on the uber-conservative Atrios blog, and the second of whom is a single poster at Daily Kos, which boasts over 40,000 members. But yeah, I can see how you might find that to be a veritable tidal wave of liberal non-support.
Even a blind pig finds a turnip once in a while.

You must be pretty new if you think Fass cared about your smiley.

Fact of the matter is that NS General as a whole is not a place that does Patriotism a lot. There are too many people from too many different countries here for US Patriotism to have any leg to stand on.

And Fass really is right...the idea that you are against the war in the US is so untenable partly because you always have to add "I support the troops, though", when really the only reason for it is silly social pressures. So in a way, the sooner the anti-war movement (as much as I might disagree with the idea of leaving Iraq too soon) sheds this burden, the better for them.

I have to agree. They need to be honest--they do not support the troops.

The ultra-liberals that bear the slogan, "Dissent IS Patriotic" need to admit that they are not patriotic. Not that not being unpatriotic makes you a bad person (although lying about in the face of evidence does).

The list of people who are unpatriotic also includes the separtists that have camps in Idaho and Montana and such places. They need to admit that they hate this country.

Hmmm. I must have missed something. When have liberals ever supported our troops?

Hmmm. I must have missed something. When have liberals ever supported our troops?

Quite often, I'd say, if by "support the troops" you mean "show concern for their well-being and hope for their safe return home". However, there appear to be other meanings, like "soldiers are infallible and are not subject to morality".

Not that not being patriotic makes you a bad person (although lying about in the face of evidence does).
It makes you a better person, IMHO. A thinking person. A person willing to critique ideas - a little bit like atheists. ;)

But importantly, to everyone..."liberal" is a right-wing thing. Don't pervert the words, please, no matter where on this planet you happen to find yourself.

It makes you a better person, IMHO. A thinking person. A person willing to critique ideas - a little bit like atheists. ;)

But importantly, to everyone..."liberal" is a right-wing thing. Don't pervert the words, please, no matter where on this planet you happen to find yourself.

Atheists are not willing to critique ideas, at least not thier own. They are as caught up in God-fever as the most fundamental Christian. Just from the other side of the line. But that's not the discussion at hand.

Even a blind pig finds a turnip once in a while.
Hey--you're the one with the headline that makes it sound like this is a massive movement. Don't take it so hard when I point out that your argument isn't as strong as you made it out to be.

Hmmm. I must have missed something. When have liberals ever supported our troops?
Well, you tend to miss stuff when you walk around with your head up your ass.

Well, you tend to miss stuff when you walk around with your head up your ass.

Now that's original.

Now that's original.
Make a snarky comment about my belief system, you get one in return. If you want to cry about it, there's a whole forum just for that.

Now that's original.

So is making sweeping generalizations.

My buddy is a rather liberal. He sends care packages to kids that come from broken homes. He signed up to get away from home and did two tours in Nam with the Rangers.

So what do you think of that?

So is making sweeping generalizations.

My buddy is a rather liberal. He sends care packages to kids that come from broken homes. He signed up to get away from home and did two tours in Nam with the Rangers.

So what do you think of that?

He gets my respect. You, however, do not.

He gets my respect. You, however, do not.
I'm sure the Black Forrest is simply crushed by the news. :rolleyes:

He gets my respect. You, however, do not.

What makes you think I even need your respect?

Take it as a lesson. Make sweeping generalizations and you only show your obtuseness.

I have to agree. They need to be honest--they do not support the troops.

The ultra-liberals that bear the slogan, "Dissent IS Patriotic" need to admit that they are not patriotic. Not that not being unpatriotic makes you a bad person (although lying about in the face of evidence does).

The list of people who are unpatriotic also includes the separtists that have camps in Idaho and Montana and such places. They need to admit that they hate this country.

I can assure that there are very few of those in Montana.

Idaho is infamous, regionally, for the white supremicists who live there. And the whole state of Wyoming is secessionist. :p

What makes you think I even need your respect?

Take it as a lesson. Make sweeping generalizations and you only show your obtuseness.

Didn't say that I thought you did. It's kind of a matter of sublime indifference to me whether or not you value my opinion or not.

But thanks for the lesson, teach.

I'm saying this as a member of the military.

Thank you for not thanking me for doing my job. I get sick of people going "thanks for your service". I have not done anything to warrent thanking. But I think many people have the wrong notion about the military and what we do. Unlike the postman and the bus driver they get to go home to their wives/husbands and children. I've been in the Navy for a year and have been home once. In that year I've lived in 3 different states and am moving to Japan in April. Its far from an easy life like said postman and bus driver. I think the best thanks and support you can give to the military is better pay for what we do. When you are underway for 6 months on a ship pulling 15 hour days and making 1600 bucks a month its hardly fair. Thats just me maybe I don't know. But the whole thank you crap and sucking up to military folk gets old and annoying if you wanna thank us give us what we need to do the job and better pay.

I'm saying this as a member of the military.

Thank you for not thanking me for doing my job. I get sick of people going "thanks for your service". I have not done anything to warrent thanking. But I think many people have the wrong notion about the military and what we do. Unlike the postman and the bus driver they get to go home to their wives/husbands and children. I've been in the Navy for a year and have been home once. In that year I've lived in 3 different states and am moving to Japan in April. Its far from an easy life like said postman and bus driver. I think the best thanks and support you can give to the military is better pay for what we do. When you are underway for 6 months on a ship pulling 15 hour days and making 1600 bucks a month its hardly fair. Thats just me maybe I don't know. But the whole thank you crap and sucking up to military folk gets old and annoying if you wanna thank us give us what we need to do the job and better pay.

Amen. Who wants to see Bush pay the men and women of our armed forces better? I do, for one. Perhaps instead of making tax cuts, Bush could spend the surplus on wage hikes for our service men and women... except it's already vanished in Iraq. Oops. :/

I'm saying this as a member of the military.

Thank you for not thanking me for doing my job. I get sick of people going "thanks for your service". I have not done anything to warrent thanking. But I think many people have the wrong notion about the military and what we do. Unlike the postman and the bus driver they get to go home to their wives/husbands and children. I've been in the Navy for a year and have been home once. In that year I've lived in 3 different states and am moving to Japan in April. Its far from an easy life like said postman and bus driver. I think the best thanks and support you can give to the military is better pay for what we do. When you are underway for 6 months on a ship pulling 15 hour days and making 1600 bucks a month its hardly fair. Thats just me maybe I don't know. But the whole thank you crap and sucking up to military folk gets old and annoying if you wanna thank us give us what we need to do the job and better pay.

It's a valid complaint but you shouldn't be so dismissive over a persons graditude. You are sacrificing to do this job. Why else would you do the job for what you make.

Don't forget people still remember Viet Nam and how those guys were treated. Better a thank you then spat on.

Again you are right about the pay......

I'm saying this as a member of the military.

Thank you for not thanking me for doing my job. I get sick of people going "thanks for your service". I have not done anything to warrent thanking. But I think many people have the wrong notion about the military and what we do. Unlike the postman and the bus driver they get to go home to their wives/husbands and children. I've been in the Navy for a year and have been home once. In that year I've lived in 3 different states and am moving to Japan in April. Its far from an easy life like said postman and bus driver. I think the best thanks and support you can give to the military is better pay for what we do. When you are underway for 6 months on a ship pulling 15 hour days and making 1600 bucks a month its hardly fair. Thats just me maybe I don't know. But the whole thank you crap and sucking up to military folk gets old and annoying if you wanna thank us give us what we need to do the job and better pay.I think the soldiers should make as much as the officers sitting at the Pentagon..

Disclaimer: 1. I am a soldier. I just got back from a year in Iraq.
2. I am Jack Daniel's drunk right now

Democrat or republican, I am sure you support the Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Sailors who are fighting everywhere, not just Iraq and Afgainsitain (i.e. I hope you don't wish death upon us).

When politicans say we should pull out now, I know they have not been to Iraq or Agfainistain and seen the progress we have made.

President Bush asserted that three things during his case to incade Iraq:
1. Iraq has NBC weapons (nuclear, biological, chemical weapons).
- We have not found any NBC on a large scale (some small mustard gas rounds have been found, only one incident of this though)

2. Saddam killed his own people and he should be removed
- this is proven. Iraq no longer has to worry about Saddam's secret police snatching them up at night.

2. Iraq supports Al Queda
- Until the invasion of Iraq, Zarquawi was a medium sized fish. The US and other countries invading Iraq has elevated his importance. Only Zarquawi was the al Queda terrorist in Iraq during the time the US and other countries invaded Iraq. Whether the reasons for invading Iraq were just or not does not take true meaning. There are AQ terrorists there now and they should, and will be defeated.

Bottomline, if the US and our partners do not succeed in Iraq, Iraq will become the new Afgainistain, a chaoitic training ground for the next generation of terrorists.

I am seen Americans who actually wish for the death of American G.I.'s in Iraq, I know this is the small minoroity. But if you are a Dem or a rep., liberal or conservative, you have to see that if we do not succeed in Iraq, the next generation of terrorists will have a perfect training enviorment to learn how to attack us on the next Sept. 11th.

I can assure that there are very few of those in Montana.

to be fair, there are very few of anything in montana.

however, somebody did spray up some nice anti-imperialist slogans visible from the highway somewhere between butte and missoula.

to be fair, there are very few of anything in montana.

We have cattle. Lots and lots of cattle. And mountains. Hence the name. :p

however, somebody did spray up some nice anti-imperialist slogans visible from the highway somewhere between butte and missoula.

I haven't been out that way in forever. No, really, I have never had cause to go to Missoula. My dad took me to Butte once when I was younger, but that was to see a mining museum (because he was bored).

I haven't been out that way in forever. No, really, I have never had cause to go to Missoula. My dad took me to Butte once when I was younger, but that was to see a mining museum (because he was bored).

Wait...wait wait wait...Your Dad...took you...to a...mining...museum...BECAUSE HE WAS BORED?!?!?

Vietnam was different though in that so many of the kids there didn't choose to go, and probably didn't really agree with the war. So it really was unfair for them to get part of the blame.

The kids in Iraq now are different I think in that most of them genuinely believe in the war there, they chose to support them, and that ultimately, I'd think most of them are more on the Right than on the Left. That would make them legitimate targets for criticism. Not for spitting though. Not yet. ;)

Having recently been in the army I have a mixed reaction to that statement. On the one hand, most combat arms personnel fall exactly into that category. They believe what they are told, are staunchly conservative, and derided by the more "intelligent" branches for being so. Personnel services are split, almost cleanly down the middle as to their support for the war and their opinions in general. Military Intelligence is so overwhelmingly liberal it would shock you. I've had experience with those 3 branches of the army, and so will limit my comments to them.

Didn't say that I thought you did. It's kind of a matter of sublime indifference to me whether or not you value my opinion or not.

But thanks for the lesson, teach.
So i've never asked this and forgive me that i know so little about you. Your sig doesn't do enough credit.
But,
have you ever served? Is there some reason why you claim such an unwavering support that is qualified by life experience?
*serious question*

I think the soldiers should make as much as the officers sitting at the Pentagon..

More even...the soldiers actually do something. Take a look at the enlisted and officer pay scales sometime and tell me it doesn't make you sick to your stomach.

I thought my favourite Albert Einstein quote would fit in well here. I think there is a lot of truth in it...what do you think?

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.
I'm gonna steal that for my sig.
Soldiers do a job. They work for the Army/Navy/Whatever. The job of armed forces is to kill people, there's no denying that. Even if the army is used to save lives, it is still fundamentally intended for killing people. I appreciate the fact that people feel they shoould join up to defend their country, their people; but i still feel they'd be better off working to remove war entirely. If they really wanted to defend their country. I reserve my real respect for firefighters, and search and rescue teams. Those people risk their lives for others without thought, day in day out, and get little thanks for it.

Hmmm. I must have missed something. When have liberals ever supported our troops?
That's a phrase that they feel obligated to tack on to any other statement they may make about Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other place our soldiers are deployed.

That's a phrase that they feel obligated to tack on to any other statement they may make about Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other place our soldiers are deployed.
I don't think anyone had a problem with Afghanistan... merely that it was shoddily executed afterwards.

I almost pity anyone who ever spits on one of those young men or women in my presence ... almost, that is. :mad:
I PITY THE FOOL ....who spits on our troops.
-Mr. T

snip

Holy shit, this guy drunk makes more sense than most people sober!

I don't know if this has been posted, but my journalism professor just handed me the entire commentary of what Joel Stein stated.

If ya like, I can post the whole thing when I get back to my dorm room.

Amen. Who wants to see Bush pay the men and women of our armed forces better? I do, for one. Perhaps instead of making tax cuts, Bush could spend the surplus on wage hikes for our service men and women... except it's already vanished in Iraq. Oops. :/

Then I suggest you actually look at the public record! Bush DID GIVE US A PAY INCREASE!!!!!!!!

However, I don't expect u to know this.

Support the Troops means I don't want them dead. No more or less than I'll gie anyone else unless they have done something exceptional (one way or another).

If you thought it meant to support them like I do the Rovers then you're in for a bit of a shock.

Then I suggest you actually look at the public record! Bush DID GIVE US A PAY INCREASE!!!!!!!!

However, I don't expect u to know this.
Since when are you in the military?

I support and respect everybody until they give reason for me not to. Deliberately killing fellow human beings, for any reason, is one of them, I'm afraid.

Since when are you in the military?

I'm part of the military family so......

I'm part of the military family so......
so, in effect, they didn't give you a raise... Carry on.

so, in effect, they didn't give you a raise... Carry on.

They gave my dad a raise which in turned increase money that my parents give me.

I support every single troop who actively fights and/or dies for my right to speak out against them. If they don't believe protecting that freedom is part of their job or realize that it's part of their oath, then fuck 'em.

From what I've seen, however, most do. Hence, I do support them.

I do not support their leaders or their Commander-in-Chief.

Nothing in the US Constitution or laws in the State of Texas require me to support a damn thing.

They gave my dad a raise which in turned increase money that my parents give me.

So, in essence, my tax dollars pay for your allowance? How old are you?

Then I suggest you actually look at the public record! Bush DID GIVE US A PAY INCREASE!!!!!!!!

However, I don't expect u to know this.

Just so you're aware, pay increases are mandated by federal law. And if you'll look even closer, most of the increases above the minimum went to officers and senior NCOs - the very people who need it LEAST. They aren't the people generally thought about when talking about "soldiers"

So, in essence, my tax dollars pay for your allowance? How old are you?

You beat me to that one...I'll add to it. Cor, what rank is your dad?

So, in essence, my tax dollars pay for your allowance? How old are you?

I always get money when I go off to the university. Then when I arrive, I live off of my paycheck I get from the University through my job.

You beat me to that one...I'll add to it. Cor, what rank is your dad?

My dad's rank is none of your business.

And as to the payraise, ALL and I stress that all, ranks got it.

My dad's rank is none of your business.

And as to the payraise, ALL and I stress that all, ranks got it.

Yes, all ranks got at least the minimum federally mandated pay raise. And I will assume from that comment that your dad is an officer, and probably a mid-high ranking one. Until you've served, (preferably as enlisted) STFU about military pay.

If you're willing to put on a helmet, grab an M-16 and get shot at for shitty pay, you're a champ in my book.

It's like taking one for the team, if you would. The only part I find to be annoying is the motion of "I'm not part of the team" seems to be more pervasive than it has been in previous engagements.

With any luck, we'll have this business taken care of before the majority is saying we should get out. Hopefully not before I get to go over there with Blackwater and make some cash, though. ^_^

Yes, all ranks got at least the minimum federally mandated pay raise. And I will assume from that comment that your dad is an officer, and probably a mid-high ranking one. Until you've served, (preferably as enlisted) STFU about military pay.

Actually, the military didn't get a raise in pay under Clinton. Bush actually increased the pay for all ranks. I'm sorry if you don't believe this but it is a truth.

If you're willing to put on a helmet, grab an M-16 and get shot at for shitty pay, you're a champ in my book.

It's like taking one for the team, if you would. The only part I find to be annoying is the motion of "I'm not part of the team" seems to be more pervasive than it has been in previous engagements.

With any luck, we'll have this business taken care of before the majority is saying we should get out. Hopefully not before I get to go over there with Blackwater and make some cash, though. ^_^

Yeah, some idiots thought "Be all you can be" wasn't good enough and replaced it with "An Army of One"

Actually, the military didn't get a raise in pay under Clinton. Bush actually increased the pay for all ranks. I'm sorry if you don't believe this but it is a truth.

First, no. Second, automatic pay raises are federal law, so whoever told you that the military didn't get pay raises under Clinton lied to you. Third, see second about "Bush's" pay raises. You know what Bush HAS done for the military (aside from the already wealth section of it)? Benefits to the VA have been cut, and financial cutoffs for health care raised. Way to "support the troops" (which, btw, extends to caring for them when their service is done).

First, no. Second, automatic pay raises are federal law, so whoever told you that the military didn't get pay raises under Clinton lied to you. Third, see second about "Bush's" pay raises. You know what Bush HAS done for the military (aside from the already wealth section of it)? Benefits to the VA have been cut, and financial cutoffs for health care raised. Way to "support the troops" (which, btw, extends to caring for them when their service is done).

Ahh dude. I've been around the military for quite awhile.

As to the Budget, you do know that has to go through Congress Right? Congress cut the budget and the VA is a SEPERATE ORGANIZATION than the Department of Defense. The military falls under the DoD not the VA.

As to payraises under Clinton, my family didn't see ANY RISE in pay. NONE

Ahh dude. I've been around the military for quite awhile.

As to the Budget, you do know that has to go through Congress Right? Congress cut the budget and the VA is a SEPERATE ORGANIZATION than the Department of Defense. The military falls under the DoD not the VA.

As to payraises under Clinton, my family didn't see ANY RISE in pay. NONE

You actually believe that? Even not counting the annual pay raises, servicemembers get raises in pay with more time in service. Do some research - http://www.dod.mil/dfas/money/milpay/priorpay/
That has pay scales for 1949-2005. I call your bluff.

You actually believe that? Even not counting the annual pay raises, servicemembers get raises in pay with more time in service. Do some research - http://www.dod.mil/dfas/money/milpay/priorpay/
That has pay scales for 1949-2005. I call your bluff.

Bush raised the pay of the military. I call.

Bush raised the pay of the military. I call.

You offer no proof other than your worthless word.

You offer no proof other than your worthless word.
not to mention that the call was that Clinton didn't raise the salary, not that Bush did it or not.

Someone says Corneliu lies on a given subject, and Corneliu answers no I don't lie on another subject. Someone has missed a few debate classes.

As to the Budget, you do know that has to go through Congress Right? Congress cut the budget and the VA is a SEPERATE ORGANIZATION than the Department of Defense. The military falls under the DoD not the VA.

Bush raised the pay of the military. I call.

You can't have it both ways. I win. And actually, the budget is suggested by the Office of Management and Budget (an executive office), passed by Congress, and then signed into law by the president.

You can't have it both ways. I win. And actually, the budget is suggested by the Office of Management and Budget (an executive office), passed by Congress, and then signed into law by the president.

So what I said was basically true. That the President doesn't cut the budget. So why blame the President when he didn't do it?

Enough thread jacking.

This commentator needs to get a life. I want to know what he is smoking.

So what I said was basically true. That the President doesn't cut the budget. So why blame the President when he didn't do it?

Good point. The Bush administration has jacked the VA. The OMB is appointed by the president, so it's his administration. I shouldn't have blamed Bush, I should have blamed the hypocritical administration.

I thought my favourite Albert Einstein quote would fit in well here. I think there is a lot of truth in it...what do you think?

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

Did Einstein make this statement before or after WWII. Did he think the same thing about the men and women who defended, or tried to defend, their countries from Hitler? If everyone in this country had agreed with Einstein we all would be speaking German now. It was the soldier who gave us our freedoms, not the pacifist. Thanks to their sacrafice, the Einstein's of the world can be free and say any dumb thing they want to say.

Did Einstein make this statement before or after WWII. Did he think the same thing about the men and women who defended, or tried to defend, their countries from Hitler? If everyone in this country had agreed with Einstein we all would be speaking German now. It was the soldier who gave us our freedoms, not the pacifist. Thanks to their sacrafice, the Einstein's of the world can be free and say any dumb think they want to say.

Einstein might have had his impressions of what soldiers do colored by living in Nazi Germany for as long as he did. Unless you think that all soldiers, such as Nazi soldiers, give people freedoms as well.

Thanks to their sacrafice, the Einstein's of the world can be free and say any dumb thing they want to say.
*yawns*

Why don't we replace Jesus on the Cross with a US Marine and be done with it.

That make you happy?

And Fass really is right...the idea that you are against the war in the US is so untenable partly because you always have to add "I support the troops, though", when really the only reason for it is silly social pressures. So in a way, the sooner the anti-war movement (as much as I might disagree with the idea of leaving Iraq too soon) sheds this burden, the better for them.

it's part of being the extremely loyal 'opposition' for the mainstreamers. they do not want to be percieved as actually opposing anything, and they are terrified of what the rightwingers will say about them. so it's all a bunch of hedging and backpeddling and basically all but unconditionally surrendering. they do the same in everything. it'd be sad if they weren't acting as enablers to the neo-fascists in the process.

Unless you think that all soldiers, such as Nazi soldiers, give people freedoms as well.

it is the duty of all good germans to support the troops.

Why has this atrocity continued for 6 pages? Everyone should just see the troll picture and leave, that is all you need to do. Myrmidonisia only posts when he has something "good" to use to libel "liberals" with, then no more. Seasoned troll.

*yawns* Why don't we replace Jesus on the Cross with a US Marine and be done with it. That make you happy?

uhhh.. will they be dripping blood?

Did Einstein make this statement before or after WWII. Did he think the same thing about the men and women who defended, or tried to defend, their countries from Hitler? If everyone in this country had agreed with Einstein we all would be speaking German now. It was the soldier who gave us our freedoms, not the pacifist. Thanks to their sacrafice, the Einstein's of the world can be free and say any dumb thing they want to say.

And.....?

Did Einstein make this statement before or after WWII. Did he think the same thing about the men and women who defended, or tried to defend, their countries from Hitler? If everyone in this country had agreed with Einstein we all would be speaking German now. It was the soldier who gave us our freedoms, not the pacifist. Thanks to their sacrafice, the Einstein's of the world can be free and say any dumb thing they want to say.

How about actually reading the quote the whole way through?
Nowhere is it stated that self-defense is wrong - "Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism" might give you a hint at what he was aiming, but damn, it´s the sentence right in the middle. Hard to spot, that one. :rolleyes:

I have to agree. They need to be honest--they do not support the troops.

The ultra-liberals that bear the slogan, "Dissent IS Patriotic" need to admit that they are not patriotic. Not that not being unpatriotic makes you a bad person (although lying about in the face of evidence does).

The list of people who are unpatriotic also includes the separtists that have camps in Idaho and Montana and such places. They need to admit that they hate this country.
Newflash, kid. Patriotism is not the same as nationalism. Go look at a dictionary once in a while. It might save you from making an utter fool out of yourself.

Newflash, kid. Patriotism is not the same as nationalism. Go look at a dictionary once in a while. It might save you from making an utter fool out of yourself.
Yeah, but where would we be without posters making utter fools of themselves on occasion? :D

Yeah, but where would we be without posters making utter fools of themselves on occasion? :D
Somewhere else.

Here's why I support the troops. They are doing a thankless job in a thankless country, ordered their by the administration that was legally elected by the majority of the nation.

They get shot at on a daily basis, blown up, criticized constantly, and yet they still re-enlist in droves. They have an outstanding sense of loyalty to their brothers and sisters in arms, they will risk their lives to save a fellow Soldier, Marine, Airmen, Or Seaman.

They didn't declare war, they didn't vote for or against anything in congress, they don't take bribes from Abramoff, or big oil, or big tobacco, or environmentalist groups, or lobbyists for lawyers.

They do their jobs, they do what they are told, because to not do so risks lives. The things they go through, so people like us can sit here and contemplate whether to even support them, are at best uncomfortable, and at worst atrocious.

But most of all, because they don't ask for our support. They just ask to come home when they are done with their job, not a minute sooner.

Why do I support the troops? Because they support me.

Here's why I support the troops. They are doing a thankless job in a thankless country, ordered their by the administration that was legally elected by the majority of the nation.

They get shot at on a daily basis, blown up, criticized constantly, and yet they still re-enlist in droves. They have an outstanding sense of loyalty to their brothers and sisters in arms, they will risk their lives to save a fellow Soldier, Marine, Airmen, Or Seaman.

They didn't declare war, they didn't vote for or against anything in congress, they don't take bribes from Abramoff, or big oil, or big tobacco, or environmentalist groups, or lobbyists for lawyers.

They do their jobs, they do what they are told, because to not do so risks lives. The things they go through, so people like us can sit here and contemplate whether to even support them, are at best uncomfortable, and at worst atrocious.

But most of all, because they don't ask for our support. They just ask to come home when they are done with their job, not a minute sooner.

Why do I support the troops? Because they support me.

They get paid for it.

They get paid for it.
Not enough. Trust me, I'm trying to live off it now.

Not enough. Trust me, I'm trying to live off it now.

Well ask for a pay rise- I don't see what it has to do with not supporting them. Its a job. Get paid for it.

Well ask for a pay rise- I don't see what it has to do with not supporting them. Its a job. Get paid for it.
It's a job? That's your great answer for it? What, pray tell, do YOU do for a living, and when is the last time someone planted an IED under your desk?

If you don't support the troops, fine, it's your right not to. But enough with the stupid comparisons between being an Infantry Soldier and working in the IT department. It makes you look dumb.

It seems complex thought is not needed in the U.S.
Either you support the troops and love Bush (Republican) or you hate the troops, hate Bush and spend your time trying to find homes for kittens (everyone else).

The liberals I know have no question regarding their patriotism and support of troops. They are able to make a clear line between political maneuverings happening in Washington and the troops being sent into harms away for reasons we do not agree with. There is also a sense among the liberals that I know, that we're there now. It sucks, it shouldn't have happened: but there it is. We need an exit strategy but simply pulling all of our troops out is no longer an option. The Bush administration made a mess and that mess has to be cleaned up and I support the troops who are doing that job. There is no lack of patriotism or pride for our troops among the liberals I know and it seems to go deeper than the shallow flag waving and yellow bumper stickers I see from the "He's our president, no matter what he mucks up" conservatives.

It's a job? That's your great answer for it? What, pray tell, do YOU do for a living, and when is the last time someone planted an IED under your desk?

If you don't support the troops, fine, it's your right not to. But enough with the stupid comparisons between being an Infantry Soldier and working in the IT department. It makes you look dumb.

Oh, its not a job then. Apologies. I thought people volunteered for it. I must have confused it with slave labour or a penal battalion, you know... one where people don't have a choice and don't get paid.

Oh, its not a job then. Apologies. I thought people volunteered for it. I must have confused it with slave labour or a penal battalion, you know... one where people don't have a choice and don't get paid.
In the sense that you get paid, it's a job. But to lump it in the same category with ANY other job is asinine, and if you were capable of admitting you were wrong, I believe you'd agree..

It's a job? That's your great answer for it? What, pray tell, do YOU do for a living, and when is the last time someone planted an IED under your desk?

If you don't support the troops, fine, it's your right not to. But enough with the stupid comparisons between being an Infantry Soldier and working in the IT department. It makes you look dumb.
Outside of "war"time, I doubt military is the most dangerous job in the US, even the grunt part of the military. What about police? No one gives a rat's ass about police, they are all "ohh, military, poor military."

Maybe there is another way to present this, but this suits me. I do believe there are a large number of American liberals that would love to say exactly this. Only the threat of having their patriotism questioned seems to restrain them.
Funny how in the "land of the free" people are afraid to be unpatriotic. In western Europe for the most part there is no such threat or fear, which leads me to conclude what we are more free than you. The military is a socialist government institution (to use Milton Friedman's phrase) just like public education or healthcare. Some people don't support the latter; others don't support the former. What's the big deal?

Can you also accept that there are people out there who genuinely do support the troops but not the war? That maybe it's not just a hollow catch phrase for everyone?

What does the term "support the troops" mean? Does hoping that they don't get killed en masse and that they're safe not count as supporting them?

Outside of "war"time, I doubt military is the most dangerous job in the US, even the grunt part of the military. What about police? No one gives a rat's ass about police, they are all "ohh, military, poor military."

I beleive that we've already established the fact that if you get paid to do something, its a job, and hence you don't deserve any respect for doing anything dangerous to help others.

So, in essence, my tax dollars pay for your allowance? How old are you?
Pwned.
:D

My dad's rank is none of your business.

And as to the payraise, ALL and I stress that all, ranks got it.
Translation .... plausible deniability for later posts.

Funny how in the "land of the free" people are afraid to be unpatriotic. In western Europe for the most part there is no such threat or fear, which leads me to conclude what we are more free than you. The military is a socialist government institution (to use Milton Friedman's phrase) just like public education or healthcare. Some people don't support the latter; others don't support the former. What's the big deal?

Can you also accept that there are people out there who genuinely do support the troops but not the war? That maybe it's not just a hollow catch phrase for everyone?

What does the term "support the troops" mean? Does hoping that they don't get killed en masse and that they're safe not count as supporting them?

Bullseye. As I've said previously, I do support the troops (well, the ones who choose to think for themselves anyway, regardless of opinion...I can't force myself to support a sheep) but I don't support the war or the administration that doesn't seem to care for their well being(anybody else remember the huge body armor mess?)

Translation .... plausible deniability for later posts.
Nope, as any enlisted or former enlisted can tell you, "none of your business" means "high enough on the pay scale to not have to worry about money"

im cool:sniper:

Enough thread jacking.

This commentator needs to get a life. I want to know what he is smoking.
Translation:
Thank you sir, i've had enough.
And to think, i've actually defended your wherewithal. :(

Translation:
Thank you sir, i've had enough.
And to think, i've actually defended your wherewithal. :(
Straugn wins this thread.

Nope, as any enlisted or former enlisted can tell you, "none of your business" means "high enough on the pay scale to not have to worry about money"
Well, that would be my understanding if i still took Corny seriously.
It's been my experience that when Corny says "None of your business" it isn't a matter of discretion. It's a matter of "well, better change the subject." ... which is pretty much what immediately followed.
See above, if you would.

im cool:sniper:

*I know don't feed the trolls but I can't help this*

Your an idiot

*I know don't feed the trolls but I can't help this*

Your an idiot
Don't feed them? I thought you bred them under your backporch?

Straugn wins this thread.
PARTY!!!!
I've got the Triscuits and SoCo. Hmmm. Aside from the Twister board and the Crisco, what am i missing besides the festive lot of y'all?

*note: I'm aware i could lose face in the following answers.* ;)

I also have a thread highlight or two if anyone wants a review.
Here's a teaser ....

You can't have it both ways. I win. And actually, the budget is suggested by the Office of Management and Budget (an executive office), passed by Congress, and then signed into law by the president.
-

You actually believe that? Even not counting the annual pay raises, servicemembers get raises in pay with more time in service. Do some research - http://www.dod.mil/dfas/money/milpay/priorpay/
That has pay scales for 1949-2005. I call your bluff.

You offer no proof other than your worthless word.
Someone says Corneliu lies on a given subject, and Corneliu answers no I don't lie on another subject. Someone has missed a few debate classes.

*I know don't feed the trolls but I can't help this*

Your an idiot
You know, with all the fun we've had, i still have to thank you for your baffling :confused: commitment to argument with me and some of the others.
You really do make the threads fun sometimes. I'm not kidding.

You know, with all the fun we've had, i still have to thank you for your baffling :confused: commitment to argument with me and some of the others.
You really do make the threads fun sometimes. I'm not kidding.

That's my job. I don't even take myself seriously half the time.

That's my job. I don't even take myself seriously half the time.
Now I've got to start taking you more seriously.
You rock. *bows*

Outside of "war"time, I doubt military is the most dangerous job in the US, even the grunt part of the military. What about police? No one gives a rat's ass about police, they are all "ohh, military, poor military."
Again, your inexperience shows. Let's consider a Marine Air Wing. When I was on active duty, we were lucky to have less than 20 or so deaths a year. That's deaths from flying, or Class A mishaps as we labeled them. Most years, it was higher. Some terrible years, we lost more than a hundred Marines to aviation mishaps.

Now, lest you think that it's only the officer pilots that suffer these mishaps, think again about the mission of Marine Corps Aviation. We support the ground troops. While, the fixed wing crowd rarely causes the death of a grunt, that's not true in the Helo community. Marines ride in helicopters, a lot. Whenever a loaded Frog crashes, it's not just two pilots in front that die. A bunch of grunts that are crowded into the rear buy the farm, as well.

Now, how many policemen die performing their duties during a year? I don't know, but I suspect if it were 20 or 30 every year, we'd hear about it. I suspect there are more dangerous peactime jobs than being a sailor on an aircraft carrier, but not many.

Translation .... plausible deniability for later posts.
Let's clear things up on this pay raise. Go to military.com, or one of those websites and read it. There was, indeed, an across the board pay raise of 3.1% for 2006 that was signed into law by GWB. It was a part of a larger defense appropriations bill. There are many more pay categories than just base pay. All of those were raised in that bill.

That being said, in 2000, military pay raises were tied to the CPI. They are granted annually at a value of the CPI increase + 1/2 %. Although I did okay, that's a heck of a lot better than what I was guaranteed during the Reagan and Bush years.

Corny, I remember that your dad is a senior officer. I don't think he's a flag, yet, but if he made it, congratulations.

The rest of you need to remember that senior officers are the equivalent of managers of a large corporation. If you don't recognized the responsibility that they have for their particular command and the effort that they put into having a successful tour, then you probably don't think managers work either.

Now I've got to start taking you more seriously.
You rock. *bows*

*bows in return*

The rest of you need to remember that senior officers are the equivalent of managers of a large corporation. If you don't recognized the responsibility that they have for their particular command and the effort that they put into having a successful tour, then you probably don't think managers work either.

Oh, I know that there are some good officers out there who actually work hard and provide a quality command environment. I have had the immense pleasure of working with some of them. I also know that there are a lot of people who work the system, pander to their superiors, and do nothing for their subordinates. Same thing goes for civilian managers. Hell, when I was in high school and my dad was a district manager for KMart (with responsibilities in 3 states) I did most of his paperwork for him because he wasn't good with a computer. I am not saying that managers/officers aren't important, I am saying they are grossly overpaid in comparison to the people they supervise. Take a look at how much money CEOs make, even those in charge of failing companies. I could continue, but those who would care don't need me to, and those who don't aren't going to be convinced anyway.

Edit - Actually, he was a good manager, and could have made it further if he hadn't gotten sick of working 80 hours a week (most of it driving). Also Cor, don't feel bad about the pay thing. My dad lied to me too ;)

Corny, I remember that your dad is a senior officer. I don't think he's a flag, yet, but if he made it, congratulations.

I wish he was flag rank. He deserves it but I guess he is to smart to be one! :(

The rest of you need to remember that senior officers are the equivalent of managers of a large corporation. If you don't recognized the responsibility that they have for their particular command and the effort that they put into having a successful tour, then you probably don't think managers work either.

I agree.

Corny, I remember that your dad is a senior officer. I don't think he's a flag, yet, but if he made it, congratulations.
It's quite possible that you've utterly missed the point of my post, which i clarified here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10304776&postcount=109
Unless you just liked my post for some reason and had no particular relation to it for your post .... ?

It's quite possible that you've utterly missed the point of my post, which i clarified here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10304776&postcount=109
Unless you just liked my post for some reason and had no particular relation to it for your post .... ?
Straugn, you may be an expert on Corneliu, but you missed your Myrmidonisia 101 class. He is an anti-"liberal" troll. He is talking friendly with Corneliu to help change the topic back to "liberal" bashing and pro-militarism,

*bows in return*
I should renounce Teh_pantless_hero's honour of my winning the thread at this point, because frankly, i wasn't particularly integral to the thread.
Whereas, Corneliu's contributions were absolutely essential.
In the immortal words of Lt. Riley on the ST:TNG episode, "The Naked Time":

"No dance tonight."

I should renounce Teh_Pantless_Hero's honour of my winning the thread at this point, because frankly, i wasn't particularly integral to the thread.
Whereas, Corneliu's contributions were absolutely essential.
In the immortal words of Lt. Riley on the ST:TNG episode, "The Naked Time":

"No dance tonight."

Lets just say that I maybe playing abit extreme right wing, I do hold moderate views and I really do pay attention to what both parties are saying.

I get that from my mom and NOT from my dad who is normally a straight party ticket person.

Straugn, you may be an expert on Corneliu, but you missed your Myrmidonisia 101 class. He is an anti-"liberal" troll. He is talking friendly with Corneliu to help change the topic back to "liberal" bashing and pro-militarism,
It's okay, i think the thread went the course it needed to. My appreciation of Corny won't really help OR hinder Myrmidonisia's cause. Other people here have already pwned Myrmidonisia sideways.
As for Myrm "not noticing" or "deliberately ignoring", well, that's the problem with most of the anti-liberal threads - the person simply doesn't have the facts, and won't deal with the facts when presented with them.
Honestly, is anyone here really gonna change anyone else's mind? There's give and take, but frankly, we're here to argue, and there's an intrepid few who provide resource for their fuel. More power to 'em. *bows*

It's okay, i think the thread went the course it needed to. My appreciation of Corny won't really help OR hinder Myrmidonisia's cause. Other people here have already pwned Myrmidonisia sideways.
As for Myrm "not noticing" or "deliberately ignoring", well, that's the problem with most of the antil-liberal threads - the person simply doesn't have the facts, and won't deal with the facts when presented with them.
Honestly, is anyone here really gonna change anyone else's mind? There's give and take, but frankly, we're here to argue, and there's an intrepid few who provide resource for their fuel. More power to 'em. *bows*

Straughn?

I agree 100%

Lets just say that I maybe playing abit extreme right wing, I do hold moderate views and I really do pay attention to what both parties are saying.
That's interesting, because has anyone here actually ever seen that side?

Lets just say that I maybe playing abit extreme right wing, I do hold moderate views and I really do pay attention to what both parties are saying.

I get that from my mom and NOT from my dad who is normally a straight party ticket person.

Power to your mom, and to you for taking after her. And playing extremist makes for more entertaining arguments.

That's interesting, because has anyone here actually ever seen that side?

LOL!

No because I like playing the little right wing demagogue :D

Power to your mom, and to you for taking after her. And playing extremist makes for more entertaining arguments.
Seconded!
This is what i'm talking about. *bows*

That's interesting, because has anyone here actually ever seen that side?

Some people have a need to play devil's advocate, and in NS, that would involve taking the "conservative" side, since "liberals" are extremely well represented. Besides, it's all in fun anyway, right?

LOL!

No because I like playing the little right wing demagogue :D

You do it so well too...I could almost swear I was talking to a senior officer sometimes ;)

LOL!

No because I like playing the little right wing demagogue :D
You know i'm gonna have to quote you on this, of course. ;)

Power to your mom, and to you for taking after her. And playing extremist makes for more entertaining arguments.

I know. I figure someone has to "enlighten" the board once in awhile.

My mother instilled into me to look at both sides of an issue and listen to what both sides are saying and try to find a middle ground between the two.

I do try my best to do this but it is difficult to do.

You do it so well too...I could almost swear I was talking to a senior officer sometimes ;)

HAHA!!!

Now this is funny :D

You know i'm gonna have to quote you on this, of course. ;)

Go ahead. It doesn't bother me. It is fun playing it :)

Straughn?

I agree 100%
As much fun as it is to argue with everyone, you'll note that there's only certain topics i push. And i've stated my otherwise ulterior motive a few times, but hushed, of course.

Of course, i'm probably using this quote too. Thanks! :)

Some people have a need to play devil's advocate, and in NS, that would involve taking the "conservative" side, since "liberals" are extremely well represented. Besides, it's all in fun anyway, right?

It is all in fun.

And if we take life to seriously, we'll go nuts anyway.

My mom has a saying: "you have to be a little insane to be sane otherwise you're insane."

Go ahead. It doesn't bother me. It is fun playing it :)
Case in point :
I SIGNIFICANTLY doubt that Greenlander or Man In Black is willing to make such an admission. Within a roll of the tongue, they can quickly devolve into more and more vitriolic responses. Even with all the crap that Corneliu puts up & puts up with, there's very few occasions of Corneliu actually taking it out in a personal fashion. That kind of character is *EXTREMELY* rare in reference to the conservative public face, and proponents thereof.

Case in point :
I SIGNIFICANTLY doubt that Greenlander or Man In Black is willing to make such an admission. Within a roll of the tongue, they can quickly devolve into more and more vitriolic responses. Even with all the crap that Corneliu puts up & puts up with, there's very few occasions of Corneliu actually taking it out in a personal fashion. That kind of character is *EXTREMELY* rare in reference to the conservative public face, and proponents thereof.

Straughn?

I never knew you could say something nice about me. I'm tearing up.

i would just like to put, since i'm "In" with what's REALLY going on in Iraq, i think i can clearly say, it's hard to route out an enemy on their own soil. lets see. they've been there for how long? they know every cave, every river, every inch of the city. We dont. Also.. many people believe that we "Should not have gone in" and "We are only invading." These are all Media lies.. let me tell you the truth. The truth of the matter is this.. If we DIDNT go in.. and Saddam Launched those Nuclear Missiles.. (If he does have them or did, just because we didnt find them doesnt mean he didnt get rid of them) People would say, Hey America! why the F*ck didnt u do something? BUT now since we did go in, and who knows if there were nukes or not.. People are Saying. Hey Amercia! why the F*ck did u go in? Let me tell you this people, #1 I would rather have stopped Saddam before finding out the hard way that he had nukes. #2 He was killing Millions! of innocent civillians with gas, testing weaponry, and other things.. i ask u this.. why the F*ck not stop him? Also #3, he had all the things he needed to make and launch nuclear missiles.. Uranium, he had PLENTY of, Long Range Missiles.. PLENTY of, Ballistic Warhead, PLENTY of.. I dont see the big fuss. Also you may ask, we are doing nothing in Iraq... i say.. WTF?!?!?! #1 we just gave more freedom to people over their than before... #2 we are still fighting, we arnt going to build cities when we are still at war.. YES PEOPLE AMERICA IS STILL IN A WAR! #3 when we do win the war for good, we are going to rebuild Iraq. #4 Beyond popular belief, the president CANNOT DECLARE OR ENTER A COUNTRY MILITARILY WITHOUT ALL OF WASHINGTONS SUPPORT, which means, all of the branches need to agree... umm.. if we didnt have good enough proof of what Saddam was doing. THEY NEVER WOULD BE THERE.. Also, I dont know if you know this.. we got attacked people.. HUNDREDS of innocent people died.. That's why we are fighting.. we had info that Saddam helped Osama... now if he really did or not who knows.. but he was 100% fact that he was killing his own civillians.. i mean he killed people running against him in elections. So for anybody in America who doesnt Agree with me.. Read this again, Check your facts, Dont believe the Media's BullSH*T. They only pry on what Soldiers do wrong.. guess what?!?! it's a friggin war.. sh*t happens, i'd like to see you do better there people.. we are not just fighting for america.. but for Iraq Citizens too.. we got two countries to think of when we attack. You know, When did the media ever say 1 good thing about our soldiers ever? NEVER, they never have, they've only got bad things... now how often do they come out with bad stuff about our soldier? not often.. therefor we must be doing a great job over there.. For those times we accidently shot up a car with innocent civillians.. u dont think the soldiers who did it are grieving? they hate themselves for it i'm sure.. would you? i would! but guess what? the road next to you about a mile away yesterday had ur friend there.. he came up to the window of a car to check who is in it and what.. and it blows... now your suppose to check cars today... i'd be scared sh*tless. Now that day, someone drives through your checkpoint 3 times.. that's wierd.. not normal.. then they speed through once when EVERYBODY KNOWS your suppose to stop.. and its the same car that drove past 3 times... yea something is not right.. so u know what? have a little sympothy for our damn fine soldiers who are fighting for YOU, ME, Iraqi Civillians, and AMERICA.. Fine Soldiers of the United States. I Salute you.

I realize i probably offended many people, i am sorry. these are ALL facts i put down. NO OPINION. i have checked and rechecked my facts, talked to MANY soldiers who came back for leave. I know what i'm talking about.. so for those of you who dont agree.. i'm sorry, but Facts are Facts, they dont care who doesnt believe in them. They still exist as Facts.

It's quite possible that you've utterly missed the point of my post, which i clarified here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10304776&postcount=109
Unless you just liked my post for some reason and had no particular relation to it for your post .... ?
It was just a dyslexic moment on my part. I was reading Corny's included quote and wanted to mention something about the much-discussed pay raise. So I just hit the quote button instead of looking for the right post. I don't even think I cared about your quote, so I'm sure I did miss the point.

[edited because...well, isn't it obvious?


USE THE RETURN KEY AFTER EVERY COUPLE SENTENCES. Please!

That's interesting, because has anyone here actually ever seen that side?
No. I don't think that Corny is an ideological extremist, but he is really, really, really partisan.

Holy shit, this guy drunk makes more sense than most people sober!
Thanks. I do my best work with whiskey!

I do believe there are a large number of American liberals that would love to say exactly this. Only the threat of having their patriotism questioned seems to restrain them.


I believe you are extremely mistaken. As an American liberal I can tell you that only the extreme far left do not support the troops. It is not a matter of fearing their patriotism being questioned for most liberals, but more the result of remembering important lessons from the past. We have learned from our experiance from Vietnam that there is big difference from the people who make the decisions to go to war than the ones who actually fight it.

The troops are just as at fault as Bush himself. The vast majority of them belong in the camp of Americans who just couldn’t get over 9/11 and demanded more blood. Those people are responsible for this war. If they had not supported the Administration and their invasion of Iraq, this whole mess would have never happened.

I got to agree with Neu Leonstein and Laenis on this one I'm afraid. If you join the military, you know what you're getting yourself in for. Its a risk but a calculated one.

I don't weep everytime I step off the bus, thanking the driver profusely for doing a job well done, nor do I shed a tear with pride everytime the postman calls-- they do they're jobs like everyone else. The military calls for danger and those who volunteer and join of their own free will should know the consequences.
The very fact that they willing decide that it is worth it warrants respect for them.

...The truth of the matter is this.. If we DIDNT go in.. and Saddam Launched those Nuclear Missiles.. (If he does have them or did, just because we didnt find them doesnt mean he didnt get rid of them) People would say, Hey America! why the F*ck didnt u do something? BUT now since we did go in, and who knows if there were nukes or not..
...Also #3, he had all the things he needed to make and launch nuclear missiles.. Uranium, he had PLENTY of, Long Range Missiles.. PLENTY of, Ballistic Warhead, PLENTY of.. I dont see the big fuss. Also you may ask, we are doing nothing in Iraq... i say.. WTF?!?!?!

...these are ALL facts i put down. NO OPINION. i have checked and rechecked my facts, talked to MANY soldiers who came back for leave. I know what i'm talking about.. so for those of you who dont agree.. i'm sorry, but Facts are Facts, they dont care who doesnt believe in them. They still exist as Facts.
The fact is when we invaded Iraq, there were no nuclear weapons in Iraq. There were chemical weapons that were moved out of Iraq at the time of our invasion. You may want to check your facts.

The main fact is, there are a shit load of terrorists in Iraq right now. Wether our invasion of Iraq was just or not, the current situation dictates that we must prevail in Iraq or Iraq will become the new Afgainistain for terrorists.

<snip>

Thank you for clearly demonstrating an earlier point I made about the differing viewpoints of the different sections of the military. See, I was an Arabic linguist (intel) and many of my friends are Arabic linguists(also Chinese and Korean, but we'll focus on the Arabic just for the moment). There is a reason that most of the military intelligence community that I have any connection to is opposed to the war. They are angry that the intelligence they gathered was taken out of context and flat out misrepresented to push a case for war in Iraq. Saddam and Bin Laden are diametrically opposed and would never work together. One of my friends (a Korean linguist, God only knows how he got stationed in Afghanistan for a year and a half) commented on how little the intelligence gathered was used. For a specific example, and paraphrasing "Hey guys, we've tracked transmissions from Bin Laden...he's in that cave over there." Infantry commander - "So what? We have other things we're doing right now" A week later "Nevermind, they just moved out of that cave" Infantry commander - "Alright boys, gear up, we're storming that cave"
As a side note, if we're so concerned with the terrorists, and this isn't just a vendetta, why didn't we make sure Afghanistan was cleaned up before we pulled out and left a token force there?

I'm loving this one...:D

Here's some highlights (my emphases):
i would just like to put, since i'm "In" with what's REALLY going on in Iraq
...
The truth of the matter is this.. If we DIDNT go in.. and Saddam Launched those Nuclear Missiles.. (If he does have them or did, just because we didnt find them doesnt mean he didnt get rid of them)
...
He was killing Millions! of innocent civillians with gas, testing weaponry, and other things.. i ask u this.. why the F*ck not stop him?
...
Also #3, he had all the things he needed to make and launch nuclear missiles.. Uranium...
...
Also, I dont know if you know this.. we got attacked people.. HUNDREDS of innocent people died.. That's why we are fighting.. we had info that Saddam helped Osama...
...
You know, When did the media ever say 1 good thing about our soldiers ever? NEVER, they never have, they've only got bad things...
...
I realize i probably offended many people, i am sorry. these are ALL facts i put down. NO OPINION. i have checked and rechecked my facts, talked to MANY soldiers who came back for leave. I know what i'm talking about.. so for those of you who dont agree.. i'm sorry, but Facts are Facts, they dont care who doesnt believe in them. They still exist as Facts.

In the sense that you get paid, it's a job. But to lump it in the same category with ANY other job is asinine, and if you were capable of admitting you were wrong, I believe you'd agree..
It's tough being a martyr (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10303095&postcount=81).

The troops are just as at fault as Bush himself. The vast majority of them belong in the camp of Americans who just couldn’t get over 9/11 and demanded more blood. Those people are responsible for this war. If they had not supported the Administration and their invasion of Iraq, this whole mess would have never happened.

Now that's not fair. What about all the people who joined prior to 9/11, believing they would be defending the United States and the constitution? These are many of the people being affected by stoplosses and not being allowed to leave after the expiration of their contracts.

yes i agree, there were not Nuclear maybe.. but yes, u know chemical weapons are just as bad. specially the ones now adays.. the newest mustard gas made during the cold war was so strong that 1\100th of a drop on human skin will kill you.. people.. that gas is invisible, doesnt smell, and you are unable to feel it.. this is some bad ass stuff... no soldiers are not as responsible here's why i believe this.. when they joined the service they did not know that they were going to be fighting this war.. if they are ordered to fight they have to fight. if they rebel and do not do what they are told, we go into friggin anarchy. maybe not anarchy for say but it'll be bad. which makes us very weak to attacks, if those terrorists decide to attack again.. Like i said i'm sorry for those i've offended there will ALWAYS be people seeing it differently, i just ask you keep an open mind, i have taken in everything you guys have said. I remind you, i've checked my facts numerous times. I myself am going to join the Air Force, because i want to protect my beutiful country, the land, my family, and the people in it. and.. for you... does this make me to blame for terrorists attacking? or does it blame me for sitting back and saying " oh well we just got attacked, so imma just sit here and do nothing." certainly not. Still.. think of the Iraqi civillians Saddam was killing, has killed. We are fighting for them more. becase if anybody stood up to say anything against saddam they got killed.. 100% of the time.. this is not right.. they are humans, we are fighting for them becase they couldnt do it themselves..

<snip> we are fighting for them becase they couldnt do it themselves..
Not to sound like an isolationist ass, but where exactly in the oath of enlistment or contract or anywhere is reference made to protecting people in every country on the planet?

cabbage patch girl, are u mocking me? lol. what did u mean by you loved this one? are are some highlights? lol..

yes i agree, there were not Nuclear maybe.. but yes, u know chemical weapons are just as bad. *snips* the newest mustard gas made during the cold war was so strong that 1\100th of a drop on human skin will kill you.. people.. that gas is invisible, doesnt smell, and you are unable to feel it.. this is some bad ass stuff...
So how is that "as bad" as a nuclear blast which will, rather excruciatingly, completely burn the flesh off of living people for a radius of twenty miles?

Just askin'.

Maega.. you right it didnt.. but... we are all humans.. if one human decides to start beating on another.. no matter where it is.. shouldnt another human help the one who's getting the beating? idk.. of course america cant do everything.. but we are a major power.. true, i agree sometimes we do get our noses where it doesnt belong. but then again.. if your neighbors are getting into a huge fight you here them from your house then they pull you into the deal.. u kinda gotta defend yourself.. sure we could just sit there.. but.. we got a rep to defend too. once we just sit there we get attacked. like 9/11..

that gas is invisible, doesnt smell, and you are unable to feel it.. this is some bad ass stuff...
And it all comes from us: Americans, Europeans, Russians. Everyone sold them that shit, why would you be surprised he had it (not that he seemed to have it in any sort of meaningful quantities anymore).

And besides, the scientists responsible for the Iraqi WMD program have been released...seems like there wasn't all that much evidence to get them for doing anything wrong.

if they rebel and do not do what they are told, we go into friggin anarchy. maybe not anarchy for say but it'll be bad. which makes us very weak to attacks, if those terrorists decide to attack again..
Here's an idea...you are imagining this terrorism business! More people get struck by lightning in the US than get killed by terrorists.
Your paranoia leads you to do insane things, like giving up the very principles your country used to stand for...because you're "at war".

I remind you, i've checked my facts numerous times.
But you haven't done it very well. Your claims have been discussed a million times, and proof has not been produced to support them.

Still.. think of the Iraqi civillians Saddam was killing, has killed. We are fighting for them more. becase if anybody stood up to say anything against saddam they got killed.. 100% of the time.. this is not right.. they are humans, we are fighting for them becase they couldnt do it themselves..
One word: Uzbekistan.

The very fact that they willing decide that it is worth it warrants respect for them.

Again, 'respect'. I 'respect' them as much as anyone else who does their job. Doesn't mean I have to throw myself to the ground in awe every time a soldier walks by.

I come from a military family- my father, uncle, grandfather and great-grandfather all served. So what? They volunteered, they also volunteered to go abroad. I don't expect people to treat them with special reverence merely because they made the decision to.

bobs own pipe, i've read a few books on nuclear and bio weapons.. heres an excpert or however u spell it from one of those books. now i do not have it with me but this is what it pretty much says.. it's a story of a vietnam battle we fought.

Gas was released 15 mile from a village. the vietnamese realesed this gas. in a day it got to that village, at first people's skin started to burn, then their lungs. after about 10 seconds they started to cough up blood and peices of stomach and lungs, 15 seconds and their skin starts to peel off, 25 seconds later they are laying on the ground puking up big chunks of stomach and lungs, 30 seconds later their skin starts to melt and all there eyes start to melt(it wasnt really melting they were just kinda.. falling out). 45 seconds they are completely dead. Now this happend in 60 seconds so this stuff is powerful. the way they new this is the Americans got word that the vietnamese released this gas 15 miles from this vilage. they went to the village with helicopters and stayed at the city until this happend. The gas then traveled still further another 15 miles. The gas now a days can travel 3x's as far before it evaporates, and some still stay around for months on end. Germans at the end of WW2 had a couple tons of stronger stuff stockpiled. we have a few tons stockpiled, who knows how much saddam had stockpiled. so theres your answer.

Thank you for clearly demonstrating an earlier point I made about the differing viewpoints of the different sections of the military. See, I was an Arabic linguist (intel) and many of my friends are Arabic linguists(also Chinese and Korean, but we'll focus on the Arabic just for the moment). There is a reason that most of the military intelligence community that I have any connection to is opposed to the war. They are angry that the intelligence they gathered was taken out of context and flat out misrepresented to push a case for war in Iraq. Saddam and Bin Laden are diametrically opposed and would never work together. One of my friends (a Korean linguist, God only knows how he got stationed in Afghanistan for a year and a half) commented on how little the intelligence gathered was used. For a specific example, and paraphrasing "Hey guys, we've tracked transmissions from Bin Laden...he's in that cave over there." Infantry commander - "So what? We have other things we're doing right now" A week later "Nevermind, they just moved out of that cave" Infantry commander - "Alright boys, gear up, we're storming that cave"
As a side note, if we're so concerned with the terrorists, and this isn't just a vendetta, why didn't we make sure Afghanistan was cleaned up before we pulled out and left a token force there?
98 series?

we have a few tons stockpiled
You evil people.

Maega.. you right it didnt.. but... we are all humans.. if one human decides to start beating on another.. no matter where it is.. shouldnt another human help the one who's getting the beating? idk.. of course america cant do everything.. but we are a major power.. true, i agree sometimes we do get our noses where it doesnt belong. but then again.. if your neighbors are getting into a huge fight you here them from your house then they pull you into the deal.. u kinda gotta defend yourself.. sure we could just sit there.. but.. we got a rep to defend too. once we just sit there we get attacked. like 9/11..

Ok. since EVERYBODY wants to use the 9/11 self defense approach, I'll play. Why are we in Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia. http://cfrterrorism.org/coalition/saudiarabia.html
15 of the 19 terrorists involved with 9/11 were Saudi citizens, Bin Laden is a Saudi, the Saudi royal family has a long history of funding terrorists (I can find references later if you don't want to do it yourself, but I have class in a few). In short, Saudi Arabia sponsors terrorism more than Iraq could ever afford to. So why the HELL aren't we invading there?

we have a few tons stockpiled, who knows how much saddam had stockpiled. so theres your answer.
That's a bit of an understatement...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
...In March 1975, the U.S. ratified the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC).

Negotiations for a legally binding verification protocol to the BWC proceeded for years. In 2001, negotiations ended when the Bush administration rejected an effort by other signatories to create a protocol for verification, arguing that it would interfere with legitimate biological research.
...Through the non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the Centers for Disease Control, the U.S. government under Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush sold or sent biological samples to Iraq under Saddam Hussein up until 1989....

According to the U.S. Army Chemical Materials Agency, as of March 24, 2005, the United States has destroyed 11,216 tons of chemical weapons or 35% of the original stockpile of nearly 31,500 tons of nerve and mustard agents declared in 1997. Of the weapons destroyed, 500 tons was mustard gas and the majority was other agents such as sarin (GB) and VX.

About 7,500 tons of prohibited weapons had been destroyed by 2002 to meet the Phase II quota and deadline, about 22 percent of the U.S. chemical arsenal. The original commitment in Phase III required all countries to have 45 percent of the chemical stockpiles destroyed by April 2004. Anticipating the failure to meet this deadline, the Bush administration in September 2003 requested a new deadline of December 2007 for Phase III and announced a probable need for an extension until April 2012 for Phase IV, total destruction (requests for deadline extensions cannot formally by made until 12 months before the original deadline).

98 series?

Quite so, I'm a little partial to the 98Gs, though I have a few 98C friends as well.

cabbage patch girl, I understand some off your points. it is stupid of us to sell other countries these things. we do not just throw down our ideals when war comes.. whats our ideals? Freedom for everyone in the world..what are we doing? Trying to give the Iraqi People Freedom.. this is not straying from our ideals. for another one i read from someone else, i do not expect you to kneel down to them when they walk by.. it's not like they are superman, but just dont take it out on them. I cannot show you all of my proof, read the book Nuclear and chemical Weapons and this will show you my claims to the gasses and nuclear weapons, and i cant bring back the newspapers i got, the talks i've had with troops who came back from over there no.. i cannot bring back the talks on t.v. the media stories.. no i cannot prove that.. but.. it doesnt matter.. facts are facts like i said.. you can find them for yourself.

Look i feel as if i'm angry you guys. i dont want to, i'm just voicing my opinions.

ok so in the last one i meant we HAD tons... ok cabbage patch girl? missed spelled my words, thank you for blatenly pointing that out.

The troops are just as at fault as Bush himself. The vast majority of them belong in the camp of Americans who just couldn’t get over 9/11 and demanded more blood. Those people are responsible for this war. If they had not supported the Administration and their invasion of Iraq, this whole mess would have never happened.
What exactly in your clearly flawless wisdom should have the American troops done to stop the war in a strict military organization that demands that they obey their superior, the President of the United States, had they not been lied to in the first place about the reasons to go to war?

cabbage patch girl, I understand some off your points...
Fair enough. Just for the record though...my name is actually "Neu Leonstein", and I'm male.
"Cabbage Patch Girl" is just my title I got for having x number of posts. :)

Snakastan, thank you so much for pointing that out.. that's what i was trying to get through to him. i totally agree with you.

LOL sorry Neu Leonstein my bad, where are you from?

cabbage patch girl, I understand some off your points. it is stupid of us to sell other countries these things. we do not just throw down our ideals when war comes.. whats our ideals? Freedom for everyone in the world..what are we doing? Trying to give the Iraqi People Freedom.. this is not straying from our ideals. for another one i read from someone else, i do not expect you to kneel down to them when they walk by.. it's not like they are superman, but just dont take it out on them. I cannot show you all of my proof, read the book Nuclear and chemical Weapons and this will show you my claims to the gasses and nuclear weapons, and i cant bring back the newspapers i got, the talks i've had with troops who came back from over there no.. i cannot bring back the talks on t.v. the media stories.. no i cannot prove that.. but.. it doesnt matter.. facts are facts like i said.. you can find them for yourself.

Look i feel as if i'm angry you guys. i dont want to, i'm just voicing my opinions.

Yes, we're all for world wide freedom... we're all for democracy.

Until democracy elects someone we don't like. Then we fund guerillas to overthrow their government.

If we're all for freedom, why haven't we invaded Libya? If we're all for freedom, why did the CIA pay to have the Shah installed in Iran? If we're all for freedom, why did we destroy Nicaragua's economy in the wake of their first free elections? If we're all for freedom, why did we pay two tin-pot dictators to fight the Communists in Korea and China? If we're all for freedom, why did we keep on paying tin-pot dictators in Vietnam, even though they people of Vietnam had already voted to go under a Communist regime based out of the North? If we're all for freedom, why do we continue to pour money into Saudi Arabia? If we're all for freedom, why did we pour money into Iraq during Gulf War I?

Why should I support morally corrupt mecenaries killing women and children for Jewish big businesses?

Why should I support morally corrupt mecenaries killing women and children for Jewish big businesses?

This is sarcasm I hope.

Quite so, I'm a little partial to the 98Gs, though I have a few 98C friends as well.
I am 96B. It sounds as if your dificulties in Afganistain could have been fixed my a competant targeting cell in your S-2 shop. There is no reason why HVT's should not be actioned against.

Again, 'respect'. I 'respect' them as much as anyone else who does their job. Doesn't mean I have to throw myself to the ground in awe every time a soldier walks by.

I come from a military family- my father, uncle, grandfather and great-grandfather all served. So what? They volunteered, they also volunteered to go abroad. I don't expect people to treat them with special reverence merely because they made the decision to.
No one is saying that you must consider all of them heroes, but the fact that they did volunteer and put their lives on their line so the majority of Americans do not and for that all Americans should atleast be grateful.

snakastan once again, i believe everyword you say, you are better at getting the point across than me, but once again New Rafnaland i stated in an earlier post that we cannot help everybody, we are not perfect. We are not God, but we do try to do our best to keep the worst of it out.. ad if i could point out. in another thread someone pointed out why cant america kinda stay to itself, well if we followed this, and also followed what you said Rafnaland we'd be hypcrites. (however you spell it) Also we paid Iran becase they were gonna help us, we were fighting Iraq. IF my history does not fail me this is why we poured money there.. why we are still pouring money into saudi.. i dont know. do i sound like i'm all the government people? All's i know is America is trying..

No one is saying that you must consider all of them heroes, but the fact that they did volunteer and put their lives on their line so the majority of Americans do not and for that all Americans should atleast be grateful.
Again, being grateful has nothing to do with it. Its their job. I am as grateful to a soldier as I am to a bus driver. They do their job- they get paid for it.

Doesn't mean I don't 'respect' them for it- doesn't mean I don't understand what they do: but it's their choice, no one forced them to serve.

Anyone else get the feeling that snakastan and Princstable are puppets?

Anyone else get the feeling that... Princstable are puppets?
Not really- it takes effort to write posts that condensed and hard to read :D :D

Mongoose, comparing soldiers to bus drivers is like comparing 1,000,000 gold coins to 1,000,000 silver coins.. it doesnt add up to nearly the same ammount. I do not see that bus driver risking their lives for you, and everybody in America. Yes they decided to do it. Would you then admire, or respect people who got drafted more than people who chose to put there life on the line for their country? Not saying dont respect Draftee's all's i'm saying is they didnt want to be in the Military in the first place. We need bus drivers yes, but not NEARLY as much as we need Soldiers, and bus drivers are not risking their lives NEARLY as much as soldiers, and a bus driver in a state across country from you doesnt impact your life NEARLY as much as a soldier in Iraq Impacts your life.. sure you may not notice, i dont notice, but if the soldiers didnt go.. who knows what would be happening now... if the bus driver didnt go to work that day.. who lives across country from you.. you wouldnt even notice.

snakastan once again, i believe everyword you say, you are better at getting the point across than me, but once again New Rafnaland i stated in an earlier post that we cannot help everybody, we are not perfect. We are not God, but we do try to do our best to keep the worst of it out.. ad if i could point out. in another thread someone pointed out why cant america kinda stay to itself, well if we followed this, and also followed what you said Rafnaland we'd be hypcrites. (however you spell it) Also we paid Iran becase they were gonna help us, we were fighting Iraq. IF my history does not fail me this is why we poured money there.. why we are still pouring money into saudi.. i dont know. do i sound like i'm all the government people? All's i know is America is trying..

Well it helps that my typing skills are WAY better than yours.:p However while you may agree with me, I must regretfully inform you that I disagree with the most of the points I have managed to decipher from your posts.

me a puppet? no, snake no. i dont know him... lol besides what would be the point of that? haha, funny idea though i like it, your thinking.

Anyone else get the feeling that snakastan and Princstable are puppets?
Your feeling would be wrong. Sorry :p .

ROFL, managed to decipher? c'mon people is it really that hard to read my posts? sorry guys didnt know... i'm also sorry that snake and i dont agree as much as i thought :( is this size better?

Although it is funny that he keeps posting right before or after I do.

hahaha snakastan, lol.... yes.. it is funny... lol... oh, this is to good... but no one else is typing so... yeah... besides i've kinda replied after almost every post...

oh snakastan even though we dont agree as much as i thought.. i respect ya alot. wouldnt mind to chat more with ya either.

Mongoose, comparing soldiers to bus drivers is like comparing 1,000,000 gold coins to 1,000,000 silver coins.. it doesnt add up to nearly the same ammount. I do not see that bus driver risking their lives for you, and everybody in America. Yes they decided to do it. Would you then admire, or respect people who got drafted more than people who chose to put there life on the line for their country? Not saying dont respect Draftee's all's i'm saying is they didnt want to be in the Military in the first place. We need bus drivers yes, but not NEARLY as much as we need Soldiers, and bus drivers are not risking their lives NEARLY as much as soldiers, and a bus driver in a state across country from you doesnt impact your life NEARLY as much as a soldier in Iraq Impacts your life.. sure you may not notice, i dont notice, but if the soldiers didnt go.. who knows what would be happening now... if the bus driver didnt go to work that day.. who lives across country from you.. you wouldnt even notice.

Like the NY transit strike you mean? Which paralysed the city for 3 days straight when the subway drivers went on strike? Sure, not important at all.

The draft is different- I am talking about people who willing and knowingly volunteer to serve- with full knowledge of all benefits and dangers of serving in the military. You serve society as well as anyone else. No better, no worse. You get paid for the job you choose to do. Don't ask for anything more- you get as much respoect as anyone else.

point taken, but strikes are a bit different than what i meant, but since we are talking masses, ok point taken. but i still dont agree with your idea that everyjob should be respected the same..

Mongoose, comparing soldiers to bus drivers is like comparing 1,000,000 gold coins to 1,000,000 silver coins.. it doesnt add up to nearly the same ammount. I do not see that bus driver risking their lives for you, and everybody in America. Yes they decided to do it. Would you then admire, or respect people who got drafted more than people who chose to put there life on the line for their country? Not saying dont respect Draftee's all's i'm saying is they didnt want to be in the Military in the first place. We need bus drivers yes, but not NEARLY as much as we need Soldiers, and bus drivers are not risking their lives NEARLY as much as soldiers, and a bus driver in a state across country from you doesnt impact your life NEARLY as much as a soldier in Iraq Impacts your life.. sure you may not notice, i dont notice, but if the soldiers didnt go.. who knows what would be happening now... if the bus driver didnt go to work that day.. who lives across country from you.. you wouldnt even notice.
I don't see as how you need any more soldiers than you already have. Frankly, you don't need as many as you have already. It's so obvious yet manages to elude too many people.

I don't see as how you need any more soldiers than you already have. Frankly, you don't need as many as you have already. It's so obvious yet manages to elude too many people.

soldiers where? in Iraq? the more the faster it'll get done, and we can give freedom to the people of Iraq (If american gets another dictator in that country i'll flip)(we put saddam in power) if you mean soldiers in our country? definetly no we can never have to much, plus china in about 5 more yrs will have more power than us.. i dont like it since us and china Dont Always see eye to eye... but it can't be helped. so i'll deal with it.

point taken, but strikes are a bit different than what i meant, but since we are talking masses, ok point taken. but i still dont agree with your idea that everyjob should be respected the same..

Ok then. On a scale, what is top:
Soldier... Policeman.. .Firefighter....Nurse....Paramedic...
911 dispatcher....Teacher....

Who deserves more respect and why?

snakastan once again, i believe everyword you say, you are better at getting the point across than me, but once again New Rafnaland i stated in an earlier post that we cannot help everybody, we are not perfect. We are not God, but we do try to do our best to keep the worst of it out.. ad if i could point out. in another thread someone pointed out why cant america kinda stay to itself, well if we followed this, and also followed what you said Rafnaland we'd be hypcrites. (however you spell it) Also we paid Iran becase they were gonna help us, we were fighting Iraq. IF my history does not fail me this is why we poured money there.. why we are still pouring money into saudi.. i dont know. do i sound like i'm all the government people? All's i know is America is trying..

We can't help everyone, so we go out of our way to hurt others?

You're wrong about something else thing, too. We're in it for no one but ourselves. Freedom, if it occurs, is a happy by-product: We aren't trying at all.

And you typoed. We haven't poured money into Iran since the Shah was overthrown. We did, however, pour money into Iraq during Gulf War I. As opposed to Gulf War II, which was the one in 1991.

Mongoose, comparing soldiers to bus drivers is like comparing 1,000,000 gold coins to 1,000,000 silver coins.. it doesnt add up to nearly the same ammount. I do not see that bus driver risking their lives for you, and everybody in America. Yes they decided to do it. Would you then admire, or respect people who got drafted more than people who chose to put there life on the line for their country? Not saying dont respect Draftee's all's i'm saying is they didnt want to be in the Military in the first place. We need bus drivers yes, but not NEARLY as much as we need Soldiers, and bus drivers are not risking their lives NEARLY as much as soldiers, and a bus driver in a state across country from you doesnt impact your life NEARLY as much as a soldier in Iraq Impacts your life.. sure you may not notice, i dont notice, but if the soldiers didnt go.. who knows what would be happening now... if the bus driver didnt go to work that day.. who lives across country from you.. you wouldnt even notice.

You're forgetting something: The bus driver has put himself in danger for me. He may die because of an errant Mack truck.

The soldier? He hasn't put his life on the line for anything but American foreign policy. He isn't risking his life to save me. He isn't risking it to save you. He isn't risking it to save the Republic. He isn't risking it for the sake of some greater good. He's risking it to advance the foreign policy of the Bush Administration. (The Coast Guard and National Guard are the exceptions that test the rule, mind you.)

Hurt others? how? who are we hurting that have not overly hurt others already? if you steal from someone the police arrest you. easy. we put saddam in power.. people forget this... he was doing inhuman things.. we now took him back outta power, now we are going to try to say sorry to the Iraqi's for putting him in power..

Oh and mongoose, by the way, i dont judge people by their careers, i shouldnt judge people at all by gods standards but i do have my thoughts about people, and my thoughts are by what they do as a person... as a person a soldier has decided to give his life if it happens to me and everybody he fights for, that is very big to me.. to you.. maybe you dont care he did that and you care the teacher is teaching the kids how to read, and do things right more.. it's up to you man, i dont even have Scale forsay about who would do what.. if i fought i fight for everyone, i'm joining the Air Force, i'm fighting for the Teachers, Policemen, Bus Drivers, Nurses, Dr. and my fellow soldiers equally, not because of what they are for a career but what they are doing as a person and their choices, i know some soldiers are not good, but u know that's a small scale, and i do not know all of the choices of those teacher or other carreers ill just give them the benefit of the doubt that they are making good choices and i'll fight for them.. this is a bit confusing yes but... it's how i think.

Oh and mongoose, by the way, i dont judge people by their careers, i shouldnt judge people at all by gods standards but i do have my thoughts about people, and my thoughts are by what they do as a person... as a person a soldier has decided to give his life if it happens to me and everybody he fights for, that is very big to me.. to you.. maybe you dont care he did that and you care the teacher is teaching the kids how to read, and do things right more.. it's up to you man, i dont even have Scale forsay about who would do what.. if i fought i fight for everyone, i'm joining the Air Force, i'm fighting for the Teachers, Policemen, Bus Drivers, Nurses, Dr. and my fellow soldiers equally, not because of what they are for a career but what they are doing as a person and their choices, i know some soldiers are not good, but u know that's a small scale, and i do not know all of the choices of those teacher or other carreers ill just give them the benefit of the doubt that they are making good choices and i'll fight for
them.. this is a bit confusing yes but... it's how i think.

Not confusing at all ;) Merely wondering where you personally stood on who should be respected more... as you said yourself
but i still dont agree with your idea that everyjob should be respected the same..

I understand your stance and if you join up of your own free will, I hope you return safely to your family soon- just don't expect me to shower you with praise and affection for merely doing the job you signed up for. ;)

You're forgetting something: The bus driver has put himself in danger for me. He may die because of an errant Mack truck.

The soldier? He hasn't put his life on the line for anything but American foreign policy. He isn't risking his life to save me. He isn't risking it to save you. He isn't risking it to save the Republic. He isn't risking it for the sake of some greater good. He's risking it to advance the foreign policy of the Bush Administration. (The Coast Guard and National Guard are the exceptions that test the rule, mind you.)



THe danger is smaller for the bus driver, how Often does a bus driver die in an accident in america? how many soldiers have died for america? big difference, and besides you cant say why ALL of the soldiers joined? take me for instance i'm joining to fight for you, me, my family, and Everybody in American including what America was made for. If our president doesnt uphold that perfectly, oh well, we'll get a good president who will. Also mind you, the National Guard is the Military, they are only reserve. I understand all soldiers have not joined for this reason, but damn, saying they all are bent on doing it for foriegn policy and the Bush Administration most of the soldiers out there signed up before bush became president or even started running for presidency.. now if i take our theory on the soldier and put it on the bus driver, the bus driver has not done anything for you, he does it becase he doesnt have a college degree, and needs money and this is the only way to do it, Or, he has gone through school but he just wants to drive buses. Or he doesnt care about kids at all,or he's doing it because his father or mother was one... or all of the above... same thing man, no difference. between what i put for the bus driver and what you put for the soldier. mind u i dont believe the bus driver did any of these.. i dont know why the bus driver is a bus driver.. i dont judge people like that.

Not confusing at all ;) Merely wondering where you personally stood on who should be respected more... as you said yourself


I understand your stance and if you join up of your own free will, I hope you return safely to your family soon- just don't expect me to shower you with praise and affection for merely doing the job you signed up for. ;)


I dont expect you to mongoose, i just want people to know what i stood for, and know that i fought for them and for Freedom for everybody.. i dont want protestors at my funeral..............

Ok then. On a scale, what is top:
Soldier... Policeman.. .Firefighter....Nurse....Paramedic...
911 dispatcher....Teacher....

Who deserves more respect and why?none of the above...

giving some group more respect is automatically giving less to the others..

In a perfect World, society would respect anyone doing their Jobs.. Hard workers would get some extra respect..

But unfortunately it is not that way..
In our society..Money seems to be the ultimate barometer of "respect"...
Doctors get more respect than nurses (even if Nurses work harder)
Congressmen get more respect than teachers..
Pilots get more respect than the Marines..
Generals sitting at the Pentagon get more respect than the Front line soldiers..
Millionaire Athletes are treated like Heroes, etc..

THe danger is smaller for the bus driver, how Often does a bus driver die in an accident in america?
I don't know about for bus drivers but auto accident fatality rates are fairly high.

i dont want protestors at my funeral..............

Em, huh? Why would someone who doesn't care either which way, protest at your funeral? Unless you're talking about Fred Phelps and his bunch of loons.:confused:

Hurt others? how? who are we hurting that have not overly hurt others already? if you steal from someone the police arrest you. easy. we put saddam in power.. people forget this... he was doing inhuman things.. we now took him back outta power, now we are going to try to say sorry to the Iraqi's for putting him in power..

We didn't put him in power... but assuming we did: Then we let him sit on the throne for thirty years.

We actively hurt people:

We placed a trade embargo on Nicaragua under Regan which completely gutted that small nation's economy. It still has yet to regain the economic strength it had before the embargo. Why did Regan place this embargo? Because he didn't like the guy who won in Nicaragua's elections. And then Regan gave weapons to Iran in exchange for money he spent on the facist Contras to try and get them to overthrow the lawful, duly elected government of Nicaragua (they failed to do anything, but make the countryside of Nicaragua extremely dangerous for anyone not a Contra).

When Iran developed into a democracy during the 1950's, they elected a man to office who Eisenhower didn't agree with. Why? Because he was implementing leftist reforms. So Eisenhower paid the CIA to get the lawful, duly elected government overthrown. And they did, and then they installed the dictatorial Shah. Whose administration was so unpopular that Muslim radicals were able to overthrow it and replace it with the government we currently see today.

When Afghanistan started going democratic, they began to fall under the influence of the Soviet Union (seeing as they share a border, that shouldn't be unusual). When Muhajideen popped up in Afghanistan, the Afghani government requested aid from the Soviet Union. We sent the Muhajideen money and Stingers. When the Soviet Union pulled out and the central government of Afghanistan collapsed, the Taliban rose to the fore and pushed Afghanistan's warlords packing. And we paid the Taliban mucho dineros to control their opium output. Which they did rather poorly, and much of the money went right into having those lovely executions in soccer stadiums that we got to hear so much about.

When Vietnam was granted independence by the Japanese, right before the end of the Second World War, we forced them to become a colony of France, again. Because we wouldn't provide Ho Chi Minh with guns, he went to the Soviets and the Chinese, and they gave him all he needed at the cost of espousing a Communist system. We, instead of trying to wean the Vietnamese away from the Communists and the French, paid the French to stay in Vietnam. Eventually, the French gave up, and elections were held in Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh's Communist party won overwhelmingly, but we decided to throw those results out and governed South Vietnam, supporting dictator after dictator in the South. Each as incompetant as the other. Eventually, we pulled out, and the division of the South Vietnamese enabled their rapid fall to the NVA.

Need I say more?

none of the above...

giving some group more respect is automatically giving less to the others..

In a perfect World, society would respect anyone doing their Jobs.. Hard workers would get some extra respect..

But unfortunately it is not that way..
In our society..Money seems to be the ultimate barometer of "respect"...
Doctors get more respect than nurses (even if Nurses work harder)
Congressmen get more respect than teachers..
Pilots get more respect than the Marines..
Generals sitting at the Pentagon get more respect than the Front line soldiers..
Millionaire Athletes are treated like Heroes, etc..

i agree to a degree. but like i said i'm joining because I personally Respect everybody the same becase No ones perfect u know? the soldiers just get a bit more respect for me. that's all, and if your saying the marines should get more respect than pilots.. they all deserve the same. sure pilots arnt running around on the ground, but pilots are getting shot at, are getting shot down, are getting killed, and are giving Close Air Support to those marines.. they both should get the same amount of respect. if it wasnt for those pilots in many many battles those marines would be goners, and if it wouldnt have been for those marines in many many battles and some the same battles, those pilots would have gotten shot down, because the marines would not have been there to take down a AAM launcher.. so everybody in the military deserves the same respect.

[QUOTE=New Rafnaland]We didn't put him in power... but assuming we did: Then we let him sit on the throne for thirty years.

We actively hurt people:

We placed a trade embargo on Nicaragua under Regan which completely gutted that small nation's economy. It still has yet to regain the economic strength it had before the embargo. Why did Regan place this embargo? Because he didn't like the guy who won in Nicaragua's elections. And then Regan gave weapons to Iran in exchange for money he spent on the facist Contras to try and get them to overthrow the lawful, duly elected government of Nicaragua (they failed to do anything, but make the countryside of Nicaragua extremely dangerous for anyone not a Contra)......[QUOTE=New Rafnaland]

ok i see, but look at any country, any country.. none are innocent of acts like these.. i dont care who you are, what country you run, or what ideals you have... .every nation has done acts like these.. I highly doubt our president tried to take out a democracy country..i mean.. it'd be like taking ourselves out.. if we ARE bent on power we would have kept it.. not saying it didnt happen.. but it doesnt make any sense.. America is a World Power, becase of this.. Everybody knows our flaws... if ur a small country no one notices... we are big people notice... but for banging us for past faults is not right. we now have a new president, will have a new one, and again will have a new one.. each one will be better in some ways worse in others, this goes for every country in the world for leaders.

and about letting him sit on the throne for thirty years.. we knew people would do this to us if we went in... first your accussing us of going in and doing it, now you just said why did u let him on for so long? We were going to let it go, but America had enough of his bullshit antics, and what he was doing.. and he was hurting us in other ways, also financially.

ok i see, but look at any country, any country.. none are innocent of acts like these.. i dont care who you are, what country you run, or what ideals you have... .every nation has done acts like these.. I highly doubt our president tried to take out a democracy country..i mean.. it'd be like taking ourselves out.. if we ARE bent on power we would have kept it.. not saying it didnt happen.. but it doesnt make any sense.. America is a World Power, becase of this.. Everybody knows our flaws... if ur a small country no one notices... we are big people notice... but for banging us for past faults is not right. we now have a new president, will have a new one, and again will have a new one.. each one will be better in some ways worse in others, this goes for every country in the world for leaders.

I never said that we were alone in this. I was just trying to make it clear that we aren't the knights in shining armor we like to think we are.

And we always have to pay for our sins. We paid for those against Iran in Iran. We paid for those against Afghanistan and the Soviet Union in New York City. And we paid through the nose for those against the Vietnamese all across America.

and about letting him sit on the throne for thirty years.. we knew people would do this to us if we went in... first your accussing us of going in and doing it, now you just said why did u let him on for so long? We were going to let it go, but America had enough of his bullshit antics, and what he was doing.. and he was hurting us in other ways, also financially.

Except for the fact that we had our army in Iraq during Gulf War II. Bush, Sr. incited the Iraqis to rebel. Had we stayed in Iraq, or at least supported the rebels, we wouldn't be in there now. The Iraqis would have deposed Saddam by themselves. Probably hung him out in the streets, too. And there would be no al-Qaida in Iraq. No lengthy occupation.

Instead, we pulled out and let Saddam gas the rebels we incited. And when Iraqis tried to flee, we let Saddam use his Hind gunships freely in the No Fly Zones against refugees fleeing Iraq. Put simply, Bush, Sr. got cold feet.

Straughn?

I never knew you could say something nice about me. I'm tearing up.
Ah, just fatten'n ya up for the slaughter. ;)

Also, i should give an honourable mention to Deep Kimchi, in reference to the group including Greenlander and Man In Black.

It was just a dyslexic moment on my part. I was reading Corny's included quote and wanted to mention something about the much-discussed pay raise. So I just hit the quote button instead of looking for the right post. I don't even think I cared about your quote, so I'm sure I did miss the point.
Righto! Carry on, then! :)

Ok. since EVERYBODY wants to use the 9/11 self defense approach, I'll play. Why are we in Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia. http://cfrterrorism.org/coalition/saudiarabia.html
15 of the 19 terrorists involved with 9/11 were Saudi citizens, Bin Laden is a Saudi, the Saudi royal family has a long history of funding terrorists (I can find references later if you don't want to do it yourself, but I have class in a few). In short, Saudi Arabia sponsors terrorism more than Iraq could ever afford to. So why the HELL aren't we invading there?
We're not done being their police force, apparently.
And, Bush still holds hands with their family in public.
And, we disregard sanctions on them for their human rights abuses.
I'm pretty sure there's a few other reasons.

Ok I haven't burned through the last million pages of posts but I thought I would throw in my nickle. I enlisted to serve my country. Whether or not I was a extension of foreign policy wasn't what I was thinking about. Once you sign up though you promise to do certain things, protect the constitution and obey lawful orders you receive from those appointed over you.

I think that Bush is a freaking idiot. But guess what while I was in I went where he told me. I voted against his dumb ass but you can't say no just because you don't agree with him. Because your fellow countrymen whom you have to trust to elect a qualified and capable commander in chief sometimes screw you over. That is just how a Democratic Republic works. Sometimes you get the good and most times you get the bad. Do I agree with the fight in Iraq? No. But I choose the life of an american over the life of an insurgent, whether he be Iraqi or whatever.

If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one would remain in the ranks.

Just a random quote I thought would be appropriate....

Thats why they're called 'grunts' :D :D

This just in: Support for using more than 5% of one's brainpower wanes among US Bush supporters...

More even...the soldiers actually do something. Take a look at the enlisted and officer pay scales sometime and tell me it doesn't make you sick to your stomach.

Actually, the pay scales are rather egalitarian. The highest paid officer only makes approximately 10 times the most junior enlisted Soldier. Compare that to corporate salaries. Not that I would turn my nose up in an instant if Congress were to offer me more money.

SFC Jimbo

Actually, the military didn't get a raise in pay under Clinton. Bush actually increased the pay for all ranks. I'm sorry if you don't believe this but it is a truth.


I've got 11 years of pay stubs that would beg to differ. This year's 3.1 was the smallest in a while and unless Congress changes it, next years will be somewhere around 2.1%

SFC Jimbo

I've got 11 years of pay stubs that would beg to differ. This year's 3.1 was the smallest in a while and unless Congress changes it, next years will be somewhere around 2.1%

SFC Jimbo

Pffft, what's evidence to Corny?

(about as useful as a viewmaster is to a blind man.)

yes i agree, there were not Nuclear maybe.. but yes, u know chemical weapons are just as bad. specially the ones now adays.. the newest mustard gas made during the cold war was so strong that 1\100th of a drop on human skin will kill you.. people.. that gas is invisible, doesnt smell, and you are unable to feel it.. this is some bad ass stuff... no soldiers are not as responsible here's why i believe this.. when they joined the service they did not know that they were going to be fighting this war.. if they are ordered to fight they have to fight. if they rebel and do not do what they are told, we go into friggin anarchy. maybe not anarchy for say but it'll be bad. which makes us very weak to attacks, if those terrorists decide to attack again.. Like i said i'm sorry for those i've offended there will ALWAYS be people seeing it differently, i just ask you keep an open mind, i have taken in everything you guys have said. I remind you, i've checked my facts numerous times. I myself am going to join the Air Force, because i want to protect my beutiful country, the land, my family, and the people in it. and.. for you... does this make me to blame for terrorists attacking? or does it blame me for sitting back and saying " oh well we just got attacked, so imma just sit here and do nothing." certainly not. Still.. think of the Iraqi civillians Saddam was killing, has killed. We are fighting for them more. becase if anybody stood up to say anything against saddam they got killed.. 100% of the time.. this is not right.. they are humans, we are fighting for them becase they couldnt do it themselves..

Pray tell, is not 1/100th of a drop still a drop? :rolleyes: Mustard gas is a blister agent. 1/100th of a drop (still chuckling) would not kill you. Perhaps you meant one of the various nerve agents such as VX that could fuck you up in tiny doses.

SFC Jimbo

This just in: Support for using more than 5% of one's brainpower wanes among US Bush supporters...
ANother one of the numerous comical posts. It amazes me that some such as an apparrent liberal such as yourself, whom preaches tolerance in all other aspects of life can make a comment such as this. In reality I am not upset, but rather entertained to encounter another dose of liberal hypocrisy.

Now, as to the numerous other posts claiming that the meb and women of the military volunteered for this and are as so many of you put it, "normal." I apologize for being blunt, but you are wrong. This men and women have volunteered to protect our country. The so called "normal" people are protecting your sorry asses. Until you are the ones out on the battlefeild protecing the freedoms that are held dear to our country do not criticize these men and women or call them normal, because you don;t care for the nature o fthier mission. Its time that a change occured. The amount of political bull that is constantly thrown aound is mesmerizing. Get a grip, the world is not perfect, not everything can be solved by a nice chit-chat. There are bad and good people, force is somtimes neccesary. If you dont beieve in the concept behind an engagement than make a difference, vote. But when the majoirty of voters elect a polotician that you do not care for, get over it. Whining and moping doesn't do anything. Focus on making this country a better place, not a better place for you, but a metter place for everyone. This conservative versus liberal mentality with no middle ground has gone far enough. Particularly, when it begins insulting soldiers, men who portect this nation and perform a duty that other will not. Do not take our your political greivences on these men and women, do yourself a favor and join us in the real world.

bobs own pipe, i've read a few books on nuclear and bio weapons.. heres an excpert or however u spell it from one of those books. now i do not have it with me but this is what it pretty much says.. it's a story of a vietnam battle we fought.

Gas was released 15 mile from a village. the vietnamese realesed this gas. in a day it got to that village, at first people's skin started to burn, then their lungs. after about 10 seconds they started to cough up blood and peices of stomach and lungs, 15 seconds and their skin starts to peel off, 25 seconds later they are laying on the ground puking up big chunks of stomach and lungs, 30 seconds later their skin starts to melt and all there eyes start to melt(it wasnt really melting they were just kinda.. falling out). 45 seconds they are completely dead. Now this happend in 60 seconds so this stuff is powerful. the way they new this is the Americans got word that the vietnamese released this gas 15 miles from this vilage. they went to the village with helicopters and stayed at the city until this happend. The gas then traveled still further another 15 miles. The gas now a days can travel 3x's as far before it evaporates, and some still stay around for months on end. Germans at the end of WW2 had a couple tons of stronger stuff stockpiled. we have a few tons stockpiled, who knows how much saddam had stockpiled. so theres your answer.

Yeah, I'm going to have to ask you find the reference for that one. There are so many holes in this story I don't know quite were to start. Oh well, I will start with these...

First, 15 miles away and it took a day to get there = less than a mile an hour winds. Winds that light would have kept the gas on site.

Second, a non-persistant agent would have evaporated before getting to the village and a persistant agent would have settled to the ground.

Third, the effects sound like a blister agent, but blister agents do not work that quickly. http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/cw/agent.htm

Fourth, only an idiot would target a village from 15 miles with a chemical agent. Probablites of the chemical getting to the village in the first place, let alone in concentrations capable of causing an effect are miniscule. Had you said a mile it might have been plausible.

Fifth, let's take a moment to ponder the logistics of producing a substance anywhere near as lethal as you mention in the quantities necessary to create a cloud capable of traveling thirty miles in lethal doses and the transportation requirements to move it through hostile terrain, and the handling requirements, and the machinery necessary to disseminate the substance.

So yeah, I'm going to need you to cite a verifiable source.

SFC Jimbo

ANother one of the numerous comical posts. It amazes me that some such as an apparrent liberal such as yourself, whom preaches tolerance in all other aspects of life can make a comment such as this. In reality I am not upset, but rather entertained to encounter another dose of liberal hypocrisy.

Tolerance does not mean that one fails to call them as they see them or refrains from making pointed jokes at the other side's expense. Notice, too, that I didn't say "conservative", I said "Bush supporter." More and more, the terms are getting less and less synonymous.

Also, realize, that my post was an exagerrated version of the title of the very thread itself. I've ALWAYS been a proponent of satire...so don't wave your "hypocrisy" paintbrush at me, you Bush-supporting bedwetter.


Now, as to the numerous other posts claiming that the meb and women of the military volunteered for this and are as so many of you put it, "normal." I apologize for being blunt, but you are wrong. This men and women have volunteered to protect our country. The so called "normal" people are protecting your sorry asses. Until you are the ones out on the battlefeild protecing the freedoms that are held dear to our country do not criticize these men and women or call them normal, because you don;t care for the nature o fthier mission. Its time that a change occured. The amount of political bull that is constantly thrown aound is mesmerizing.

And the amount of political bull is usually primarily the fault of whatever party is in power at the time. Bashing Dems is so 5 years ago. Get with the program, it's time to bash the corrupt, lying and incompetent Repubs. You can go back to bashing the corrupt, lying, and incompetent Dems when they get back in power.

Get a grip, the world is not perfect, not everything can be solved by a nice chit-chat. There are bad and good people, force is somtimes neccesary.

And knowing is half the battle. Go Joe!

If you dont beieve in the concept behind an engagement than make a difference, vote. But when the majoirty of voters elect a polotician that you do not care for, get over it. Whining and moping doesn't do anything. Focus on making this country a better place, not a better place for you, but a better place for everyone.

And giving the party in power a free pass to lie, cheat and steal accomplishes this how? Are you suggesting taking up arms against the government? Because otherwise, "chit-chat" and "whining" is the only way to go.

This conservative versus liberal mentality with no middle ground has gone far enough.

Ah, then you're done with your post.

Particularly, when it begins insulting soldiers, men who portect this nation and perform a duty that other will not. Do not take our your political greivences on these men and women, do yourself a favor and join us in the real world.

Okay, I guess you weren't done. I know I've never taken out my personal grievances against the troops. I guess you, you cooky "centralist" you, won't really believe that about a "librul" anyway.

(Compares readings from his hypocrisy-meter.)

Yup, just as I thought, you scored a lot higher than me.

This men and women have volunteered to protect our country. The so called "normal" people are protecting your sorry asses.
http://schildersmilies.de/noschild/laughoutloud.gif

An example please of the last time a US Soldier has protected anyone in the US. 1945?
Probably earlier than that...seeing as to what the risk of the Axis taking over the States actually was.

Ah, just fatten'n ya up for the slaughter. ;)

That does not surprise me :D

http://schildersmilies.de/noschild/laughoutloud.gif

An example please of the last time a US Soldier has protected anyone in the US. 1945?
Probably earlier than that...seeing as to what the risk of the Axis taking over the States actually was.

1983 springs to mind. But in general you are right, they spent most of the past sixty years protecting the west germans.

1983 springs to mind. But in general you are right, they spent most of the past sixty years protecting the west germans.
Indeed.
Although they were hardly alone, and they hardly did it out of sheer nicety.

As for 1983...

Hmmm...I'm afraid I don't follow you on this one. US Soldiers get blown up in Lebanon, Reagan declares it the "Year of the Bible" and proceeds to invade a country that AFAIK is not the United States...but no awesome fighting off of great threats.

Hmmm...I'm afraid I don't follow you on this one. US Soldiers get blown up in Lebanon, Reagan declares it the "Year of the Bible" and proceeds to invade a country that AFAIK is not the United States...but no awesome fighting off of great threats.

One of the purported reasons for sending troops to Grenada was the rescue of US nationals.

Though that was probably pretextual.

Ok I haven't burned through the last million pages of posts but I thought I would throw in my nickle. I enlisted to serve my country. Whether or not I was a extension of foreign policy wasn't what I was thinking about. Once you sign up though you promise to do certain things, protect the constitution and obey lawful orders you receive from those appointed over you.

I think that Bush is a freaking idiot. But guess what while I was in I went where he told me. I voted against his dumb ass but you can't say no just because you don't agree with him. Because your fellow countrymen whom you have to trust to elect a qualified and capable commander in chief sometimes screw you over. That is just how a Democratic Republic works. Sometimes you get the good and most times you get the bad. Do I agree with the fight in Iraq? No. But I choose the life of an american over the life of an insurgent, whether he be Iraqi or whatever.
Hey Verd!
fresh from the Rob Corddry seminar

So where ya been?
And ... are you so good you can't flip through the past million pages or so? ;)

That does not surprise me :D
Believe it or not, i am actually sincere about some things here ... trouble is just finding out what. ;)

Tolerance does not mean that one fails to call them as they see them or refrains from making pointed jokes at the other side's expense. Notice, too, that I didn't say "conservative", I said "Bush supporter." More and more, the terms are getting less and less synonymous.

Also, realize, that my post was an exagerrated version of the title of the very thread itself. I've ALWAYS been a proponent of satire...so don't wave your "hypocrisy" paintbrush at me, you Bush-supporting bedwetter.




And the amount of political bull is usually primarily the fault of whatever party is in power at the time. Bashing Dems is so 5 years ago. Get with the program, it's time to bash the corrupt, lying and incompetent Repubs. You can go back to bashing the corrupt, lying, and incompetent Dems when they get back in power.



And knowing is half the battle. Go Joe!



And giving the party in power a free pass to lie, cheat and steal accomplishes this how? Are you suggesting taking up arms against the government? Because otherwise, "chit-chat" and "whining" is the only way to go.



Ah, then you're done with your post.



Okay, I guess you weren't done. I know I've never taken out my personal grievances against the troops. I guess you, you cooky "centralist" you, won't really believe that about a "librul" anyway.

(Compares readings from his hypocrisy-meter.)

Yup, just as I thought, you scored a lot higher than me.
Hey Gym! Where ya been?

Also, it occurred to me ...
Hillary-
Breck Girl

Thus, another infantile prop in the nature of Flush and Weiner.

Believe it or not, i am actually sincere about some things here ... trouble is just finding out what. ;)

I can believe that

Hey Gym! Where ya been?

Also, it occurred to me ...
Hillary-
Breck Girl

Thus, another infantile prop in the nature of Flush and Weiner.

Oh, I'm always about, spreading cheer and puncturing the plethora of pontifications by purile pundits.

Okay, I guess you weren't done. I know I've never taken out my personal grievances against the troops. I guess you, you cooky "centralist" you, won't really believe that about a "librul" anyway.

(Compares readings from his hypocrisy-meter.)

Yup, just as I thought, you scored a lot higher than me.

I believe the technical term is "The Republican Noise Machine." Well maybe not technical, but term anyways.

Oh, I'm always about, spreading cheer and punturing the plethora of pontifications by purile pundits.
Sweet. I smell a sig addition!! :D
BTW ... do you MEAN "punturing" as in "pun" or "punt", or do you mean "puncturing?"

I believe the technical term is "The Republican Noise Machine." Well maybe not technical, but term anyways.
Best sex scenes ever done with puppets. Well, that i've seen.
I've led a sheltered life.
:(

Sweet. I smell a sig addition!! :D
BTW ... do you MEAN "punturing" as in "pun" or "punt", or do you mean "puncturing?"

puncturing....damn typos.

Now, as to the numerous other posts claiming that the meb and women of the military volunteered for this and are as so many of you put it, "normal." I apologize for being blunt, but you are wrong. This men and women have volunteered to protect our country. The so called "normal" people are protecting your sorry asses. Until you are the ones out on the battlefeild protecing the freedoms that are held dear to our country do not criticize these men and women or call them normal, because you don;t care for the nature o fthier mission.

The next time an American soldier who is not a Guardsman/woman or a member of the Coast Guard has to save my ass, I'll tell you.

The next time an American soldier steps into line to defend my freedoms, I'll be right alongside them blazing away at those evil invading Canadians/Mexicans.

The people who protect me wear blue and carry badges. The people who will save me drive ambulances and firetrucks. They are not in the military.

And, since you're talking about things you're sick about, I'll point out one that I'm sick of: The idea that the Marines, Army, or Navy are somehow fighting for freedom. They aren't. They have never fought for those things. They fight and die for the foreign policy of whichever president is in office.

If you want to protect people, join the police. If you want to save people, become an EMT, study medecine, join the Coast Guard or the National Guard, or become a firefighter.

puncturing....damn typos.
Well, you could play it off as pun, but i imagine more people will attempt to correct you than to get the joke. Me speaking from experience here ... :fluffle:
'Tis why i asked. Clarity for a sig!

Nice thread. Reading it gave me something to do for the last half-hour when I could have been staring at the ceiling.

Nice thread. Reading it gave me something to do for the last half-hour when I could have been staring at the ceiling.
Now for a comparable challenge ...
Round off Pi .... ?
I don't mean after the first nine digits, as is SO popular these days ...

Well, you could play it off as pun, but i imagine more people will attempt to correct you than to get the joke. Me speaking from experience here ... :fluffle:
'Tis why i asked. Clarity for a sig!

Indeed. I was so pleased with "faith biased initiatives"... but it just got swept under the 'badly-spelled' capret.

Indeed. I was so pleased with "faith biased initiatives"... but it just got swept under the 'badly-spelled' capret.
He did actually say it was part of his "strategery" ... it might take a while for me to find that article again ... back before the Jolt shift, so it's not in the archives.

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3.141592653... 5256375678

And... you missed the punchline... "so then the barman says.......?"

Ah, I was never much good at bar jokes. Do forgive me.

Ah, I was never much good at bar jokes. Do forgive me.

So what does the barkeep say?

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Well, you're certainly an accomodating individual!
I meant, though, given the issue of passing time ... you might have considered doing it mentally .... unless you DID, for which i have to say i'm significantly impressed.

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BINGO!!!!

3.141592653*snip*


emmmmmmmmmm piieeeeee

Good idea. I think I will go get a piece!

Nine decimal places is for the weak. :D

BINGO!!!!
Hahahaha!!!!!
*FLORT*
Moddamn rippies never put out ... but THIS ... ah, a thread attacking libs $'s up!! WooT!

It was a pretty funny thread... really took the cake. Er, pie.