NationStates Jolt Archive

Perhaps it isn't forbidden directly, but, I quote:

"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral." - Hebrews 13:4 NIV.

I think that makes a fairly strong case for not having sex before marriage, along with the fact that, from the perspective of the Bible, sex makes two people "one flesh" (with one flesh here meaning connected in every way).

Further, the other party could be somebody else's future wife or husband, and you yourself also are in all likelihood somebody's future wife/husband. Given that God's perspective is eternal, I think from His view this is the same as adultery.

At any rate, would you want to be remembering that other girl when you're in bed with your wife? I don't, and that's why I'm not doing it until I get married.

Also, notice how many people remember the first time they had sex - I don't think that's coincidence, as I believe that first time is EXTREMELY significant.

I get a completely different Hebrews 13:4:

"Have respect for marriage. Always be faithful to your partner, because God will punish anyone who is immoral or unfaithful in marriage."

It's a translation thing, and before you tell me that the original Greek said that, yes, fornicators are to be punished, think again. "Porneia", the word typically translated as "fornication", simply means "harlot", though it can have wider meanings where "fornication" can be included, but that's up to interpretation.

See:

http://www.northwood.edu/staff/grover/sb-adul.txt
http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/fornicationdefine2.html

The closest the Jewish scriptures come are mentioning that Lilith was exiled because she wanted to have power over Adam.
ah, but those aren't in the Bible, and most people think that the whole Lilith story was actually made up by feminists and isn't actually really true either.

I don't believe it does, but just in case, do you have scriptural backing for that?

Masturbation is never mentioned directly, although it's pretty much implied by the fact that lust is a sin. Then again, that one's probably obvious.

Iztatepopotla: You're welcome. I completely understand where you're coming from, and appreciate the opportunity to debate.

Further, where there's doubt, it's best to ask God. It's never a bad idea to go back to the Father of Creation.

ah, but those aren't in the Bible, and most people think that the whole Lilith story was actually made up by feminists and isn't actually really true either. Wha'? I looked that up, and didn't really find anything.

Masturbation is never mentioned directly, although it's pretty much implied by the fact that lust is a sin. Then again, that one's probably obvious.
I worry about people who say "well, the Bible doesn't exactly say, but I think what they meant when they were talking about so-and-so is" because it lets you twist things into what you want them to be. Unless there is scriptural backing for something, I don't want to hear "it's against the Bible". It is one thing for you to put limits on yourself, because of your own beliefs and interpretations, it is quite another to say "the Bible speaks against it" and then backtrack and say "oh, I mean not really, but that's what I think they meant"

Wha'? I looked that up, and didn't really find anything.
I was being a little snippy. It's not in the Bible, that is true. I don't think "most" people really think it was made up by the feminists. Although, I haven't been able to find actual proof that it was an "ancient legend" either, most of what I find that eludes to that, is biased against Christianity anyway.

I worry about people who say "well, the Bible doesn't exactly say, but I think what they meant when they were talking about so-and-so is" because it lets you twist things into what you want them to be. Unless there is scriptural backing for something, I don't want to hear "it's against the Bible". It is one thing for you to put limits on yourself, because of your own beliefs and interpretations, it is quite another to say "the Bible speaks against it" and then backtrack and say "oh, I mean not really, but that's what I think they meant"

I don't think the Bible expressly forbids it (which is not what I was saying, I should have made myself clearer). I just think that by implication it's not the smartest thing to do.

Further, it's not really the behaviour of masturbation, but rather what the person is thinking while masturbating that is the true issue. I seriously doubt that when people masturbate they are thinking of God. Most often they are thinking in a selfish manner, which is the REAL reason why the behaviour is so destructive.

Trust me on this one. I've been there. I've been guilty of masturbation and the associated wrong thinking.

I cannot, and do not enforce my rules on others. I just suggest that it might be a good idea. I treat sex before marriage as if it was forbidden for the express reason not to fall into lust. It's something that works for me, though not necessarily for others. In the same way, I'm sure Paul set some very harsh limitations on himself so as not to fall into temptation.

The Holy Spirit is always my guide. If it is not the will of God, the Spirit will let me know.

I'm waiting for a couple different reasons.

1. Catholic. lol. I'll leave it at that

2. I have OCD when it comes to new things, lol. Like if I buy a pair of really great shoes. Like...best shoes ever. When I take them home, I will NOT wear them for like...a month until I'm POSITIVE that the outfit I planned to wear them with and the place I'm going is good enough for the new shoes. Now, I'm I'm that insane about shoes, well you can only imangine how I am about other things.

I really ought to see a shrink. ;)

The closest the Jewish scriptures come are mentioning that Lilith was exiled because she wanted to have power over Adam.
You're right. I think I was mistaking both, since I have no access to the sources right now. Anyway, better yet! ;-) Not that any express prohibition in the Bible would have stopped me...

I'm waiting for a couple different reasons.

1. Catholic. lol. I'll leave it at that

2. I have OCD when it comes to new things, lol. Like if I buy a pair of really great shoes. Like...best shoes ever. When I take them home, I will NOT wear them for like...a month until I'm POSITIVE that the outfit I planned to wear them with and the place I'm going is good enough for the new shoes. Now, I'm I'm that insane about shoes, well you can only imangine how I am about other things.

I really ought to see a shrink. ;)
Wow you are like a more reta.....
Male or Female?

I don't think the Bible expressly forbids it (which is not what I was saying, I should have made myself clearer). I just think that by implication it's not the smartest thing to do.

Further, it's not really the behaviour of masturbation, but rather what the person is thinking while masturbating that is the true issue. I seriously doubt that when people masturbate they are thinking of God. Most often they are thinking in a selfish manner, which is the REAL reason why the behaviour is so destructive.

Trust me on this one. I've been there. I've been guilty of masturbation and the associated wrong thinking.

I cannot, and do not enforce my rules on others. I just suggest that it might be a good idea. I treat sex before marriage as if it was forbidden for the express reason not to fall into lust. It's something that works for me, though not necessarily for others. In the same way, I'm sure Paul set some very harsh limitations on himself so as not to fall into temptation.

The Holy Spirit is always my guide. If it is not the will of God, the Spirit will let me know.

I can agree that if your goal is to be pure of thought, that masturbation probably isn't an activity that lends itself to pure thoughts.

you do see my point though about people saying "the Bible says" when it really doesn't, not only does it let people bend things more to their liking, but it also lowers the credibility of Christians. If I say the Bible says something, most people believe me, because I can come up with scripture to back it up, if however Pat Robertson says "the Bible says" then most people write it off as him being a nutjob. The more he does it though, the more people start to doubt anyone who says "the Bible says" just because he has lied and twisted things so much that people think that it's common practice.

*not that I am saying you personally lied or twisted, just that you have to be careful to separate for people who don't know, it's more "the Bible speaks against lustful thoughts, and since I am trying to keep my thoughts pure, then that is not an activity that I think is fruitful" instead of " the Bible says not to do it"

I have a question... why should it matter to you, when one should experience their first time? I can see if two NS people get together, and they discuss it in private, but this poll is for individual value/belief so why are we arguing about it.

now if it's which is better, I can see the debating... but for me, it's more than religion that keeps me abstaning untill I find that special person. It's personal choice and (to Me anyway) an excercise in self-control.

If everybody waited 'till marriage, the world would be a much better place.

I agree but its a hard road to travel.

I don't think the Bible expressly forbids it (which is not what I was saying, I should have made myself clearer). I just think that by implication it's not the smartest thing to do.

Further, it's not really the behaviour of masturbation, but rather what the person is thinking while masturbating that is the true issue. I seriously doubt that when people masturbate they are thinking of God. Most often they are thinking in a selfish manner, which is the REAL reason why the behaviour is so destructive.

Trust me on this one. I've been there. I've been guilty of masturbation and the associated wrong thinking.

I cannot, and do not enforce my rules on others. I just suggest that it might be a good idea. I treat sex before marriage as if it was forbidden for the express reason not to fall into lust. It's something that works for me, though not necessarily for others. In the same way, I'm sure Paul set some very harsh limitations on himself so as not to fall into temptation.

The Holy Spirit is always my guide. If it is not the will of God, the Spirit will let me know.

Different levels on that for the purity of thought. Just like mortal and venial sins. Masturbation is a venial sin, but under certain conditions it is less of a sin then it is in other certain conditions. ( Thats all I know on that I don't have any real specifics, and thats the Catholic Church's teachings. The way I always confess it is just by saying ' I have been impure with myself ....')

No, I will not wait. I think that it is unwise to marry someone you may be sexuall incompatible with. Similarly, you should live with someone before you marry them for the same reason.

That doesn't mean I think that one-night stands are cool. I probably wouldn't ever have sex outside of a relationship, but waiting until marriage is ridiculous IMO.

STDs can only be transmitted through sexual intercourse (btw, as far as I know my definitions, oral sex is sexual intercourse, in case you're about to tell me that STDs can be transmitted through oral sex).

I heard that STDs came from farmers having sex with their goats.

Regardless, no matter what new STDs would be mutate, the current ones would be eliminated and their transmission would be severely hurt.

Only? Funny things those blood transfusions and dirty needles, eh? And unless you find some way of telling me a fetus banged its mother while in the uterous, how about explaining those HIV infected newborns?

NO, sex IS NOT the only way for AIDS to spread

For this theory you need to postulate a series of things:
1) that everyone will abstance until marriage
2) that all marriages will last, and there will be no divorce
3) that a widowed spouse will not continue to have sex marritally or extramarritally after the first is deceased
4) that there will be no affairs

And the big big problem with this postulation:

5) those that currently have stds NOW will not have children. Even if you manage to secure all 4 conditions necessary for this to work (which you just never will) it still doesn't stop those who have it now from spreading it to their partners and thus their children, who spread it so on. You'd effectivly have to let every single person with an STD right now die without procreating for this to even be valid.

And let's not ignore the fact you skimmed over. How, exactly, did the STDs get started IN THE FIRST PLACE? THere must have been a "typhoid mary" of AIDS out there, somewhere, at some point in time, that did NOT contract it from another person. Once you accept the possibility of STDS jumping from non human to human in some fashion other than sex (unless you really believe that AIDS originated from someone humping a chimp) then you can not contain them thoroughly, even if the other 4 conditions are met and ahdered to.

It seems to me that the fear of becoming pregnat or contracting a STD should be in the back of our minds. You've got to be aware of the potential outcomes. As long as you are responsible when you have sex, though, you should really have no problems.

It seems also that the whole reason that people historically waited until marrige was that there was not birth control as we have now. I think that at the time the Bible was written that was the reality. The Bible represents a time period when pregnancy outside of marriage was a big problem. Maybe this is not the word of "God", but the preception of those who wrote the Bible.

Face it, sex is fun. As long as you are responsible, why deny yourself that pleasure?

:fluffle:

I agree but its a hard road to travel.

How would waiting for sex make the world a better place?

I would think if people would stop judging others from their Religious convictions would make the world a better place.

I would think if people would stop judging others from their Religious convictions would make the world a better place.[/QUOTE]

makes sense to me

The word of God, called the bible, orders belivers of God to wait.

Ya well the bible says a lot of things. And nothing to clearly.

The word of God, called the bible, orders belivers of God to wait.

Ya well the bible says a lot of things. And nothing very clearly. Everything in there is just this side of "to vague to interpret".

It seems also that the whole reason that people historically waited until marrige was that there was not birth control as we have now. Incorrect. Even the ancient Egyptians had contraception - condoms. I think that at the time the Bible was written that was the reality. The Bible represents a time period when pregnancy outside of marriage was a big problem. Er… it still is? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/94245.stm)Face it, sex is fun. As long as you are responsible, why deny yourself that pleasure?

:fluffle: Creates problems.

if its not to bold to ask, but will you guys, if you feel comfortable, say why you have made the choice that you have/did?

I have a few reasons I did not wait, but even if I had, I will never be married unless if the US changes its ways, because Gay men cannot legally get married where I live.

People are choosing not to have sex responsibly now. Options are there

it's not really the behaviour of masturbation, but rather what the person is thinking while masturbating that is the true issue. I seriously doubt that when people masturbate they are thinking of God.
Are you seriously saying people should think about God while they masturbate? I'd prefer to think about my fiance.

And by ready I mean emotionally, physically, and mentally.

Aka: am I adult enough to responsibly and safely enjoy my body and the body of another?

If the answer to that question is yes, then I see no reason to wait for a peice of paper issued by the governent that legally grants you a social /economic contract. Really, that contract has nothing to do with your sexuality.

I have a few reasons I did not wait, but even if I had, I will never be married unless if the US changes its ways, because Gay men cannot legally get married where I live.
It's a trick to keep you living in sin.

In a general sense, being less active sexually with multiple partners is a good idea. It does lower the risk of pregnancy and STDs. There is a balancing of risk and reward that people should consider, and I generally think that fewer (maybe even 1) partners is a decent and noble thing. I also think sex is a better thing when it's with someone you truly care about. I think the idea of "giving your virginity" to someone is outdated and outmoted thinking though.

What gets me going is the thick headed idea that there needs to be MARRIAGE. My girlfriend and I have been together over 2 years. Neither of us were virgins when we met. We use birth control, are totally STD free, and have discussed that we would get an abortion if something went wrong.

So I ask a question from the "wait until MARRIAGE crowd". Ignoring any religious arguments (she's a lapse catholic and I'm a reform jew so religious appeals would be meritless), what reason is there for us to wait until marriage?

Because it's better to share it with someone you love? I do love her, with all my heart.

Because married life brings you closer and you are better able to have that spiritual union? We live together, share an apartment together, keep house together, manage our expenses together. Other than hospital visitation rights and tax breaks, in what way would our lives be any different if we were married (now remember, keep "union in the eyes of god" out of this, I'm appealing to non faith based answers). If the argument goes that marriage changes your life in some appreciable way, I ask how, as a couple that does everything couples do together, how would my life change in any way that would alter our experience (although I admit saving a little extra money in taxes gets me a little excited, but I hardly think that's what most have in mind).

Because the risk of STDs is lower? Nope, we're totally STD free so neither of us is catching it from each other. And assuming we were virgins, the risk of us getting STDs from each other would be 0 anyway, regardless of whether we were married.

Because of the risk of pregnancy? Does birth control suddenly become more effective when you're married? Does that risk every TRULY go away? The risk of getting pregnant inside of marriage is JUST as high as outside, the risk is in no way different.

Moreover, the two of us getting married today would not suddenly make us want children in our lives and willing to keep the one that accidently got conceived tomorrow. You can still end up with an unwanted pregnancy married or not, the ring does not provide extra protection.

Of course if one wanted to amend the definition of waiting until marriage to state that one shouldn't get married until they want children, it becomes "don't have sex until marriage, and don't have get married until you are ready for a child, ergo, don't have sex unless you want to get pregnant". Which I think is what this argument TRULY is about. I think many of these discussions about wait until marriage really stem from a belief that sex should not be done unless it's an act to conceive. And since that's not a belief I perscribe to, I don't believe in that conviction.

Keep in mind I'm not saying that it's ok to have sex with multiple partners without thought of ramifications (well, in a sense I am, personal choice and all that), what I am asking is why should my girlfriend and I, a loving, caring, long term couple, who use birth control, and do not want children at this point in our lives, wait until marriage to have sex?

If anybody wants to know where the anti-masturbation verses are in the bible, here they are:
7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother.
For confirmation, google bible search, go to the first link and enter genesis 38:7-9.

If anybody wants to know where the anti-masturbation verses are in the bible, here they are:

For confirmation, google bible search, go to the first link and enter genesis 38:7-9.
you know that's not about masterbation really right? he wasn't masturbating, he was having sex with his brother's wife (fully legal since his brother was dead) but not fulfilling the law (which said he was to give her offspring) in fact he got in trouble for trying to trick God, he had sex with her but didn't finish because he didn't want to have his children be under his brother's name.

With all the sexual transmitted diseases out there which one can get from even oral sex, I cannot blame anyone for wanting to abstain until marriage

you know that's not about masterbation really right? he wasn't masturbating, he was having sex with his brother's wife (fully legal since his brother was dead) but not fulfilling the law (which said he was to give her offspring) in fact he got in trouble for trying to trick God, he had sex with her but didn't finish because he didn't want to have his children be under his brother's name. The punishment for that was usually public humiliation (like the medieval parade-around-village thing), not death. It was a greater punishment than he would get had he not been masturbating.

On my 16th birthday I got a purity ring when I decided that I was going to wait till i got married to have sex.
I was just wondering how many NSr's are going to wait untill marrage to have sex.
EDIT: if its not to bold to ask, but will you guys, if you feel comfortable, say why you have made the choice that you have/did?
wait till marriage? hahaha no.

What is a purity ring, anyway? It sounds like something from a computer game/Warhammer, to be honest.

If that moment ever actually occurs there aren't many guys I know who would stop and say: "sorry I'm waiting for marriage, see I have a ring to remind me."

Then again the people I know can't even spell -will powir-

you know that's not about masterbation really right? he wasn't masturbating, he was having sex with his brother's wife (fully legal since his brother was dead) but not fulfilling the law (which said he was to give her offspring) in fact he got in trouble for trying to trick God, he had sex with her but didn't finish because he didn't want to have his children be under his brother's name.
Yes, it can be interpreted in quite a few ways. Like most of the Bible, actually.

In my experience, people who wish to abstain until marriage generally wish to do so out of religious devotion - it is what they believe is right behaviour for a good person. This is, in my opinion, wholly laudable.

I find it regretable that many churches feel the need to try and frighten their members into right behaviour by emphasising - usually incorrectly - the potentially negative consequences of sexual activity, and suggesting that abstinence until marriage will avoid those outcomes. Firstly, I believe this is insulting, because it suggests that the church does not believe it's members value right behaviour, but must be controlled through fear. Secondly, it is deceptive -- the negative consequences of sexual activity are not avoidable through marriage. At most, it lessens the risk of exposure to stds. Lessens - not eliminates.

I did not wait until marriage to be sexually active, and I in no way regret that decision -- I believe that I am happier and better off for having made it because it allowed to come to my marriage with a clear understanding of my personal sexual mores and desires, something that has proven invaluable to us as a couple in weathering the inevitable difficulties of a long term committed relationship.

I suppose I should make it clear that I do not advocate promiscuity or irresponsible sexual behaviour -- I was mature enough to understand and accept the risks of what I was doing, take all reasonable and necessary precautions, and have - prior to any sexual relationship - discussed all of the possible results and how they would be handled with my partner.

I would encourage all people to an make active decision and choice about if and why they would be willing or unwilling to engage in pre-marital sex. I personally believe that it is preferable to understand and pursue ones own sexual education before marriage.

I do think that the most persuave argument that can be made for pre-marital abstinence though is an extremely important one -- that through the committed choice of abstinence until marriage, people ensure themselves that they are limiting their potential marriage partners to those who share their values and beliefs. It is that commonality of values and beliefs that I believe is fundamental to any lasting relationship.

In sum, while abstinence is not (in my opinion) morally preferable in any universal way, I do think that it is a right and appropriate choice for a person to make. I do object to the efforts of made to replace sex education with abstinence only education -- even if you choose not to use the merry-go-round, you should know how it works. An un-informed choice is not choice at all.

Elicere

What is a purity ring, anyway? It sounds like something from a computer game/Warhammer, to be honest.It's a ring symbolizing the promise not to have (any more) sex until marriage. Simple as that. Well, not entirely, I think you have to sign a contract and or swear an oath or something, neither of which are legally binding for minors anyway. (At least not by law, who knows what God's opinion on the matter is.)

So when did they stop calling it celibacy?

Did that stop being politically correct?

Waiting till marriage to have sex?

How quaint, I didn't know anyone actually did that in the real world.

They're called 'condoms.'
They don't always work. Plus some stds are transmitted from skin to skin contact from your waist to your kneecaps. *chuckes* So ya ever wondered why there's that little hole in the front of boxers eh?

They don't always work. Plus some stds are transmitted from skin to skin contact from your waist to your kneecaps.Like what?
Because there's nothing special about that patch skin. So it would transmit on pretty much any skin-to-skin contact, hence not be a sexually transmitted disease, but just another touch transmitted disease.

Rather than completely abstaining from sex until your married, why not show a little moderation and responsiblity by sleeping with someone you know and care for. Holding out on sex for so long doesn't make you a good person, it just makes you miss out on a basic and natural privilage we have been given from evolution (that's right I said it!).

Yep, I'm waiting til I'm married. Why? Cause I believe that that's the way God designed sex to be... ie inside marriage

Also cause it'll be more special

Amen I agree with you entirely
I am also waiting until I get married to the right guy that God has for me

maybe if she's really hot...

Doubt you'd have to she did manage to pop you out. :p

I'd be quite fine explaining vanilla sex acts to her, I just don't want to explain how much of a pervert I am.

They're called 'condoms.'
No kidding! Here here!

Would you want to be remembering that other girl when you're in bed with your wife? I don't, and that's why I'm not doing it until I get married.

I guess you'll be happy to fantisize about people you've never had while boinking your wife? :p

They don't always work. Plus some stds are transmitted from skin to skin contact from your waist to your kneecaps. *chuckes* So ya ever wondered why there's that little hole in the front of boxers eh?

Like what?
Because there's nothing special about that patch skin. So it would transmit on pretty much any skin-to-skin contact, hence not be a sexually transmitted disease, but just another touch transmitted disease.

I'll address these two at once.

1) The failure rate of the condom results from people not putting it on right. Worn correctly, it guards 100% against pregnancy, and significantly reduces the risk of STD's.

2) Herpes can spread through kissing. Genital warts can spread though skin contact. Biggest of them all- HIV- spreads via blood. STD's CAN be contacted outside of sex. However, it should be noted that some STD's- such as herpes- stays with the person for the rest of their lives, and others- like chlamydia and syphilis- have a long incubation period meaning that they can still be spread after one gets married. Condoms aren't a cure-all, but neither is purely marital sex.

It seems also that the whole reason that people historically waited until marrige was that there was not birth control as we have now. I think that at the time the Bible was written that was the reality. The Bible represents a time period when pregnancy outside of marriage was a big problem. Maybe this is not the word of "God", but the preception of those who wrote the Bible.

My theory is that the reason why some ancients (not all) believed in abstinence was because people typically married at extremely young ages back then because their life expectancy was short. Marriage was typically around 14 and 15, meaning "pre-marital sex" would be congruent to statuatory rape. Now that people are living longer, people are getting married later when they're more mature (presumably) and thus there's less of an emphasis on abstinence because people are better able to make more mature choices about sex.

Here is a quite simple, reasonable argument. If you only have one sexual partner in your life time (IE your marriage partner) then you cannot become jelous for other partners because you have way of judging whether sex is better or worse with someone else. Thus you are less likely to have an affair because you will not become jelous.

I've only had one sexual partner, and I can safely say that is NOT the case. We've since broken up (not because I cheated or anything), but I know that when I was with her I had lots of thoughts about "how it would be like" with other women (mostly via minor thoughts- I didn't expand on them because I was faithful), and not just sexually. Thus, my lack of partners did not stop me from wanting other partners- in fact, it probably heightened it (especially after the relationship was turning sour), and this wouldn't have changed even if I got married to the girl, who I was close to engaging. As someone else said once before, you don't need good sex to know what bad sex is (though I'd argue you need incredible sex to know what that's like :p).

In my experience, people who wish to abstain until marriage generally wish to do so out of religious devotion - it is what they believe is right behaviour for a good person. This is, in my opinion, wholly laudable.

I find it regretable that many churches feel the need to try and frighten their members into right behaviour by emphasising - usually incorrectly - the potentially negative consequences of sexual activity, and suggesting that abstinence until marriage will avoid those outcomes. Firstly, I believe this is insulting, because it suggests that the church does not believe it's members value right behaviour, but must be controlled through fear. Secondly, it is deceptive -- the negative consequences of sexual activity are not avoidable through marriage. At most, it lessens the risk of exposure to stds. Lessens - not eliminates.

I did not wait until marriage to be sexually active, and I in no way regret that decision -- I believe that I am happier and better off for having made it because it allowed to come to my marriage with a clear understanding of my personal sexual mores and desires, something that has proven invaluable to us as a couple in weathering the inevitable difficulties of a long term committed relationship.

I suppose I should make it clear that I do not advocate promiscuity or irresponsible sexual behaviour -- I was mature enough to understand and accept the risks of what I was doing, take all reasonable and necessary precautions, and have - prior to any sexual relationship - discussed all of the possible results and how they would be handled with my partner.

I would encourage all people to an make active decision and choice about if and why they would be willing or unwilling to engage in pre-marital sex. I personally believe that it is preferable to understand and pursue ones own sexual education before marriage.

I do think that the most persuave argument that can be made for pre-marital abstinence though is an extremely important one -- that through the committed choice of abstinence until marriage, people ensure themselves that they are limiting their potential marriage partners to those who share their values and beliefs. It is that commonality of values and beliefs that I believe is fundamental to any lasting relationship.

In sum, while abstinence is not (in my opinion) morally preferable in any universal way, I do think that it is a right and appropriate choice for a person to make. I do object to the efforts of made to replace sex education with abstinence only education -- even if you choose not to use the merry-go-round, you should know how it works. An un-informed choice is not choice at all.

Elicere

*thumbs up* Best post here, and hey, I completely agree. I don't believe abstinence is in of itself wrong- hey, your life, your choice- but many of its proponents are going about it the wrong way, using intimiation to get its point across. It's almost as if they only see people as children that need to be told what to do and don't see that people can be responsible enough to make their own choices in life.

I believe the only solution to the sexual education problem is to simply teach the facts- but how do you do that neutrally? Any slipup- no matter how slight- and everyone will play the "bias" card.

I can handle the .02%, and yes I do read "the books". So I guess two condoms work better than one huh? WRONG! Birth control works, but like I said you're still playing a game of Russian Roulette. Even if you do use birth control, theres still the STD chamber.

Alright, asshat. You are moving into troll territory.

If you are so scared of getting a STD that you choose to remain celibate, that's fine. But that gives you no fucking right to judge or look down upon the people that choose to abstain before marraige. It doesn't make you more "godly" or moral than us. It just makes you a jerk.

If you don't bone every piece of ass you see, you likely won't get an STD. And if you do, a good majority of them are cureable. And the rest are treatable with drugs. Even HIV is becoming less of a threat because the drugs used to treat it are becoming better and better.

So what am I suspose to call a girl that slept with 15 guys, Mary Poppins?

How about "a girl that slept with 15 guys?" Would you call a guy that slept with 15 girls a whore, too? If you are perfectly honest with yourself, would that be the first descriptive word that came to mind?

Ill try my hardest to wait

Alright, asshat. You are moving into troll territory.

If you are so scared of getting a STD that you choose to remain celibate, that's fine. But that gives you no fucking right to judge or look down upon the people that choose to abstain before marraige. It doesn't make you more "godly" or moral than us. It just makes you a jerk.

If you don't bone every piece of ass you see, you likely won't get an STD. And if you do, a good majority of them are cureable. And the rest are treatable with drugs. Even HIV is becoming less of a threat because the drugs used to treat it are becoming better and better.

Wow, you say that I'm a troll, and yet you call me an asshat. Oh Kettle. I don't look down on those who abstain before marriage, in fact that is what I am doing. And I know it doesn't make me more godly. Jeez why is everyone mad at me because I choose to remain a virgin until I am married? What are you scared that the women you want to score with will start getting the same idea? Jeez. HIV does have drugs to treat it, that is true, but guess what, you're still going to die from it. So, pretty much pointless isn't it?


How about "a girl that slept with 15 guys?" Would you call a guy that slept with 15 girls a whore, too? If you are perfectly honest with yourself, would that be the first descriptive word that came to mind?

Yea, I would call a guy who slept with 15 girls a whore. I mean comon, who needs to sleep with 15 people unless they were really really sexually active. Now I already apologized for calling her that since it was judgemental, so get off my nuts about it.

Yea, I would call a guy who slept with 15 girls a whore. I mean comon, who needs to sleep with 15 people unless they were really really sexually active. Now I already apologized for calling her that since it was judgemental, so get off my nuts about it.

And I'd call you an dingus. -.-

Some people like sex, there's nothing sacred about a pleasurable activity. I don't suppose if he/she had played golf with 15 partners in his/her life you'd call him/her a whore.

It's really not that hard to sleep with 15 people, 3 a year, 5 years, a normal person could be there before they're 20, and almost certainly before they're 30.

And I'd call you an dingus. -.-

Some people like sex, there's nothing sacred about a pleasurable activity. I don't suppose if he/she had played golf with 15 partners in his/her life you'd call him/her a whore.

It's really not that hard to sleep with 15 people, 3 a year, 5 years, a normal person could be there before they're 20, and almost certainly before they're 30.

Well I do consider sex sacred, I believe that sex is the ultimate expression of love, because you are giving your body to that one person, and you are bonding your body with that person (the penis going into the vagina), and so on. That's another reason I'm a virgin, because I haven't found anyone that I want to make that ultimate expression of love with yet.

Well I do consider sex sacred, I believe that sex is the ultimate expression of love, because you are giving your body to that one person, and you are bonding your body with that person (the penis going into the vagina), and so on. That's another reason I'm a virgin, because I haven't found anyone that I want to make that ultimate expression of love with yet.

Well, it's all nice to believe that sex is the ultimate expression of love, for you. Some people place a different value on it, and you're in no place to judge them for it. As long as whore carries a negative sentiment, and not just a job title, then you have no right to call anyone a whore.

If you don't wish to have sex, that a good choice, for you. Some people want to and aren't any worse for it, as long as you aren't harming anyone you aren't doing anything wrong.


PS: And some people's "bonding" involves penis' going into bums, mouths, or even no penii at all. ;)

Well I do consider sex sacred, I believe that sex is the ultimate expression of love, because you are giving your body to that one person, and you are bonding your body with that person (the penis going into the vagina), and so on. That's another reason I'm a virgin, because I haven't found anyone that I want to make that ultimate expression of love with yet.


So when two monkeys perform some mad humpage, they do it as the ultimate expression of love?

If what you say were true, everyones very first time would have been a hell of a lot more impressive.

Sex does not equal love.
Its a basic primal urge to procreate.
As it happens, it also is one of the best physical sensations that can be experienced, and therefore, quite recreational.

Just like anything thats fun, its best when used in moderation.

I say anyone who takes such a puritanical view of sex, is largely uneducated about it, has some fear involving it, or is hiding something else entirely.

So when two monkeys perform some mad humpage, they do it as the ultimate expression of love?

If what you say were true, everyones very first time would have been a hell of a lot more impressive.

Sex does not equal love.
Its a basic primal urge to procreate.
As it happens, it also is one of the best physical sensations that can be experienced, and therefore, quite recreational.

Just like anything thats fun, its best when used in moderation.

I say anyone who takes such a puritanical view of sex, is largely uneducated about it, has some fear involving it, or is hiding something else entirely.

Eh, think what you will, I'm just stating my views on this issuse.

Eh, think what you will, I'm just stating my views on this issuse.


Fine then, tell me them.

Scientifically speaking, whats the difference between humans having sex, and primates?

Fine then, tell me them.

Scientifically speaking, whats the difference between humans having sex, and primates?

There's less feces and urine involved when people do it. ;)

There's less feces and urine involved when people do it. ;)


Unless youre G.G Allin.

Fine then, tell me them.

Scientifically speaking, whats the difference between humans having sex, and primates?

primates have sex just out of instinct. They only do it so that they can reproduce. Humans are able to have reasons, thoughts, etc. Thus we are higher than animals. You know I really get tired when people compare human to animals. I mean it's like comparing apples to oranges, comon. We are not animals, we may have come from animals, but somewhere along the way we were able to have reasons, thoughts, intelligence etc. Somewhere along the way we decided we didn't have to rely on instinct to survive. Thus we set a new set of rules for ourselves, that is apart from the animal rules.

Unless youre G.G Allin.

You owe me new pants. :(

PS: Or Max Hardcore.

primates have sex just out of instinct. They only do it so that they can reproduce. Humans are able to have reasons, thoughts, etc. Thus we are higher than animals. You know I really get tired when people compare human to animals. I mean it's like comparing apples to oranges, comon. We are not animals, we may have come from animals, but somewhere along the way we were able to have reasons, thoughts, intelligence etc. Somewhere along the way we decided we didn't have to rely on instinct to survive. Thus we set a new set of rules for ourselves, that is apart from the animal rules.

Yes, but many of our rules we have made are irrational. Besides, you assume animals are little more the automatrons, doing only what simple things have been programmed in. There's evidence of many animals being able to think, reason and even develop some degree of culture and language.

Oddly enough sex for nothing but pleasure is mostly found in the smarter animals; man, chimps, bonobos, dolphins...

primates have sex just out of instinct. They only do it so that they can reproduce. Humans are able to have reasons, thoughts, etc. Thus we are higher than animals.

Wrong.
If that were true, human males would not get involuntary erections.
We do.

You know I really get tired when people compare human to animals. I mean it's like comparing apples to oranges, comon.

1. Its "Come on"...two entirely different words.
2. Humans are very much still animals.

We are not animals,

Obviously you would consider a chimpanzee an animal.
You may already know that we share 97% of the same DNA with Chimps.
So..youre telling me that tiny 3% makes all the difference in the world?
Not and sound smart you arent.


we may have come from animals, but somewhere along the way we were able to have reasons, thoughts, intelligence etc. Somewhere along the way we decided we didn't have to rely on instinct to survive. Thus we set a new set of rules for ourselves, that is apart from the animal rules.

Humans are very much animals.
We have our own societal groups, and habitats, and our brains may be a tad larger, and we have a bit more of a grasp on abstract thought, but not by much.

Sex is an instinct, and nothing more.

Why did you have a crush on little Sally back in school?
Because your penis and your brain agreed they both liked her.

Its ok for you to hold sex in such a high regard, but to expect everyone to have the same view, is assinine.
Also, dont be surprised if your first time isnt what you expect its going to be.
As far as sex goes, practice makes perfect, and inexperience shows.
You may have a great time.
She probably will not.

You owe me new pants. :(

PS: Or Max Hardcore.


Uhh..what did you do to em?

No hope for a dry cleaning?

Wrong.
If that were true, human males would not get involuntary erections.
We do.

Yea, but not as often as animals do. We're able to control our erections to a point.



1. Its "Come on"...two entirely different words.
2. Humans are very much still animals.


Yea I guess that's why we still throw shit at one another and mark our propety with our piss.


Obviously you would consider a chimpanzee an animal.
You may already know that we share 97% of the same DNA with Chimps.
So..youre telling me that tiny 3% makes all the difference in the world?
Not and sound smart you arent.


Yep, like the old saying goes "Sometimes the best gift comes in small packages." That 3% does seperate us from the Chimpanzee and that does make all of the diffrence in the world.


Humans are very much animals.
We have our own societal groups, and habitats, and our brains may be a tad larger, and we have a bit more of a grasp on abstract thought, but not by much.

Sex is an instinct, and nothing more.

Why did you have a crush on little Sally back in school?
Because your penis and your brain agreed they both liked her.

Its ok for you to hold sex in such a high regard, but to expect everyone to have the same view, is assinine.
Also, dont be surprised if your first time isnt what you expect its going to be.
As far as sex goes, practice makes perfect, and inexperience shows.
You may have a great time.
She probably will not.

I never had a crush on Sally (joke, it's just a joke). Also, if Sex was nothing more than instinct for us humans, then how come the little kids aren't humping each other? How come I can't just go to a random woman a hump her? Because we've outgrown instinct, we've evolved and outgrew the rules that we lived by when we had instinct. and I don't expect everyone to follow the same rules that I do. Trust me if I did, everyone who admitted they had pre-martial sex I would've condemed to Hell. I know my first time is going to suck, but ah well. If the woman has such a hang up about sex, then that's her problem not mine. Beside I don't really plan on "pleasing" anyone because well, let's just say God gave me the short end of the stick when it comes to my tools.

im catholic....

so what. its too late for me. Test the car before you buy it. Practice doesn't make perfect, but it makes ya pretty damn close.

And yes, the 3% does matter

Yea, but not as often as animals do. We're able to control our erections to a point.

Bullshit.

Morningwood.




Yea I guess that's why we still throw shit at one another and mark our propety with our piss.

We still do, we just use guns and fences.



Yep, like the old saying goes "Sometimes the best gift comes in small packages." That 3% does seperate us from the Chimpanzee and that does make all of the diffrence in the world.

Now your being a goddamn idiot.

Theres much more than 3% of DNA seperating many animals from other species!
yet, THEYRE STILL ANIMALS!




I never had a crush on Sally (joke, it's just a joke). Also, if Sex was nothing more than instinct for us humans, then how come the little kids aren't humping each other?

If you dont think children have sexual fantasies..your mistaken.
You ever hear of "playing doctor"?

How come I can't just go to a random woman a hump her?

Two reasons.

One...becuase the big animal pack we live in has decided its wrong.
I tend to agree.

Two......the same reason a young lion cant do that with a lioness.
The big old lion will thrash you soundly.


Because we've outgrown instinct,



You continue to believe that humans are without instinct.
This is a fallacy, and speaks of ignorance on your part.

Show a snake to a baby.
What will the baby do?
Cry.
Why? It doesnt know what a snake is, why would it be afraid?
Instinct.

Show that same baby a teat....the baby starts thinking "lunch".
Why?

Instinct.

If I were to sneak up behind you, and push you over, your hands would come out, to break your fall.
Thats an instinctual reflex.

Male birds tend to have bright plumage compared to females, the females are attracted to this.
Women are attracted to male plumage as well, IE grooming, hygeine, perhaps a preference to blue eyes etc....

Its all entirely instinct.

Humans are very much indeed animals, and always have been, and we always will be.
Sex for us, is ultimately no more spiritually complex than that of any other animal. Its all about base instinct.

im catholic....

so what. its too late for me. Test the car before you buy it. Practice doesn't make perfect, but it makes ya pretty damn close.

And yes, the 3% does matter

Lets review Catholic.

Theres a greater difference in DNA structure than 3%, between a dolphin....and a turtle.

Or a Golden Retriever, and a beaver.

Yet, all of wich, are without a doubt....animals.

Humans and chimps share 97% of the same DNA.
This means, we are almost exactly alike in biogenetic make-up.
We have similar habits, body structures, and even facial traits.

So...if a chimp is an animal.....then so are we.
So closely related, its probably illegal to marry the two.

Lets review Catholic.

Theres a greater difference in DNA structure than 3%, between a dolphin....and a turtle.

Or a Golden Retriever, and a beaver.

Yet, all of wich, are without a doubt....animals.

Humans and chimps share 97% of the same DNA.
This means, we are almost exactly alike in biogenetic make-up.
We have similar habits, body structures, and even facial traits.

So...if a chimp is an animal.....then so are we.
So closely related, its probably illegal to marry the two.


*will not use The Bible, will not use The Bible, will not use The Bible, will not use The Bible*

*will not use The Bible, will not use The Bible, will not use The Bible, will not use The Bible*


Oh no....please.

By all means.....

That is, if you dont mind me tearing the arguments you make with it to shreds.

Try Leviticus....please!

Oh no....please.

By all means.....

That is, if you dont mind me tearing the arguments you make with it to shreds.

Try Leviticus....please!

Yea that's why I'm not using The Bible.

If we are animals, then how come animals aren't building bridges, or airplanes, or anything like that? How come they don't go to work in cubicals and work from 9-5. etc. We are not animals.

Bullshit.

Morningwood.

DId I say it didn't happen, no. I did say it happened, but not as often as it happened in animals.


We still do, we just use guns and fences.


Then how come animals don't use guns and fences, I mean they are just like us right?


Now your being a goddamn idiot.


Ahh, name calling, I'm guessing your running out of material.



If you dont think children have sexual fantasies..your mistaken.
You ever hear of "playing doctor"?


Curosity and nothing more, Hell even I tried looking under skirts, but I never got wood until I was 13.


Two reasons.

One...becuase the big animal pack we live in has decided its wrong.
I tend to agree.


Also, our laws prevent us from doing that, something else that seperates us from animals.


Two......the same reason a young lion cant do that with a lioness.
The big old lion will thrash you soundly.


Or in our case, I would be slam with a Sexual Harrasement suit. So we've gone from trashing to me serving jail time and doing community service. Maybe alittle beating from the woman's purse.


You continue to believe that humans are without instinct.
This is a fallacy, and speaks of ignorance on your part.

Show a snake to a baby.
What will the baby do?
Cry.


Actually my cousin tried to play with it, idiot. Now we do rely on instinct some, but not as much as animals do.


Why? It doesnt know what a snake is, why would it be afraid?
Instinct.


Also the hissing and biting might have something to do with it.



Show that same baby a teat....the baby starts thinking "lunch".
Why?
Instinct.


Actually that's more of conditioning. I mean if you breast feed your kid yea, it's going to see tits as lunch. However if you just bottle feed them, then it's going to think that bottle is lunch.


If I were to sneak up behind you, and push you over, your hands would come out, to break your fall.
Thats an instinctual reflex.


and then I would punch you. (joking)


Male birds tend to have bright plumage compared to females, the females are attracted to this.
Women are attracted to male plumage as well, IE grooming, hygeine, perhaps a preference to blue eyes etc....


Eh I'll give this one to you, but it's more of society's influences and what they consider beautiful or handsome whatever.




Humans are very much indeed animals, and always have been, and we always will be.
Sex for us, is ultimately no more spiritually complex than that of any other animal. Its all about base instinct.

And yet, animals don't equate sex with love, we do, well some of us. Personally I think this whole we are animals thing is a slipperly slope. If we are animals, then I should be able to go and smear my shit in my neighbors face. I mean we got to have some seperation from homo-sapiens and animals.

Yea that's why I'm not using The Bible.

If we are animals, then how come animals aren't building bridges, or airplanes, or anything like that? How come they don't go to work in cubicals and work from 9-5. etc. We are not animals.


Because our brains are a tad bit more evolved than the average animal.

Bridges, you say?

Ants build bridges.
Beavers build dams.

Hell, some elephants can paint, and even have color preferences.

Gorillas can be taught human sign language.

Some animals have the ability for higher thought.

At this point, your arguments are consisting of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "La la la !".

Do you know what a dominant male monkey does?

You know of course, humans exhibit the same behaviour, right?

Because our brains are a tad bit more evolved than the average animal.
[quote]

A tad?? Dude, comon, when was the last time you've seen a chimpanzee with a 100 spoken word voc.?

[quote]
Bridges, you say?

Ants build bridges.
Beavers build dams.


All due to instinct. They do it because A. it's programmed into them and B. it's done out of necisscity.


Hell, some elephants can paint, and even have color preferences.


They can't do more than what a 2 year old child can do. And yet, Zoogolist sells them for thousands of dollars....


Gorillas can be taught human sign language.


Ehy my dog can sit, stay, fetch etc. Doesn't mean he understands what I'm telling him. He just listens for the familiar sound and sign language. They can do sign, they can type certain words on a special keyboard, but do they truely understand it? I think this is actually more of conditioning because for every right response that they give, they're given a treat. Give me a month and I'll have my dog barking on command. Does that mean he understands what is going on? Nope. All it means is that he regonize the sound, sign language and he knows that if he does it right, he get's a treat.


Some animals have the ability for higher thought.


That's nice, prove it.


At this point, your arguments are consisting of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "La la la !".


Nope, man you really like personal attacks don't ya?


Do you know what a dominant male monkey does?


Apparently have anal sex with other male monkies, which is the bases the homosexual group use to prove that anal sex is natural.

At this time I would like to go on record that I don't hate homosexual, I'm not a homophope and I'm not one of those John Felt characters. Personally I don't give a damn who you sleep with or where you stick your penis or dildo. What you do in the privacy of your own home is none of my damn business.



You know of course, humans exhibit the same behaviour, right?

And yet, my boss never anally raped me.

Yes I know that animals can do all of that stuff, whoopie doo. In case you haven't notice, it's because people been having unprotected sex with several (and I do mean several) other people is the reason we have the HIV/AIDs problem that we have now. If we were to follow your logic that we only have sex because it's programmed into us, then our STD HIV/AID problem would be much worst than it is now.

DId I say it didn't happen, no. I did say it happened, but not as often as it happened in animals.

No, it probably happens more with humans.



Then how come animals don't use guns and fences, I mean they are just like us right?

Animals do use fences, just not ones made from metal.
Usually its scent.



Ahh, name calling, I'm guessing your running out of material.

Oh no, I'll keep showing you how mistaken you are all night long.
All you have to do, is keep insisting on some more crap.




Curosity and nothing more, Hell even I tried looking under skirts, but I never got wood until I was 13.

Some people (perfectly normal) start masturbating as early as four years old.
Me...about 7.



Also, our laws prevent us from doing that, something else that seperates us from animals.[/quote]

Yet again, you are wrong.
Animals have laws too, they just dont write them out on paper.
Chimps will often chase away outsider chimps, not from thier own clan.
Sometimes, even eat the young.







[/quote]Actually my cousin tried to play with it, idiot. Now we do rely on instinct some, but not as much as animals do. [/quote]

We most certainly do, we only tend to rationalize it as soemthing else.
Like, the supernatural.



Also the hissing and biting might have something to do with it.

Not even.

Ive seen it demonstrated, even with a stuffed snake.
Its a primal instict, probably originating from our own reptillian sub-brain.

"SNAKE=BAD!"




Actually that's more of conditioning. I mean if you breast feed your kid yea, it's going to see tits as lunch. However if you just bottle feed them, then it's going to think that bottle is lunch.

No that too is instinct.

Heres another one...

Ever seen a small baby in water?
If put underwater, what will the baby do?
Swim towards the top.

The baby doesnt know that it can drown, and in fact, probably wouldnt understand why its wants to go back to the surface....but they do..everytime.

Instinct.



and then I would punch you. (joking)

probably.
I'd have it coming, for sure.



Eh I'll give this one to you, but it's more of society's influences and what they consider beautiful or handsome whatever.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...or female sparrow, in this case.





If we are animals, then I should be able to go and smear my shit in my neighbors face. I mean we got to have some seperation from homo-sapiens and animals.

Nonsense.

Ever own a dog?

Would your dog walk calmly over to the neighbor, and shit on his shoe?

No.

Becuase the dog knows that it would probably recieve an ass kicking from the aforementioned neighbor, and one from you, when he gets home.

The only separation between us, is we have a more advanced society.
The rest is all imagined by those with grandiose desires to be "special" in some way.

No, it probably happens more with humans.[/quiote]

That's nice, prove it.


[quote]Yet again, you are wrong.
Animals have laws too, they just dont write them out on paper.
Chimps will often chase away outsider chimps, not from thier own clan.
Sometimes, even eat the young.


Instinct and the need for surivial.

We most certainly do, we only tend to rationalize it as soemthing else.
Like, the supernatural.


Not even.

Ive seen it demonstrated, even with a stuffed snake.
Its a primal instict, probably originating from our own reptillian sub-brain.

"SNAKE=BAD!"

A real snake I can buy, but a stuff one? I dunno, usually at that age we can tell if something is a threat to us, a stuff snake doesn't seem to pose that much of a threat..


Heres another one...

Ever seen a small baby in water?
If put underwater, what will the baby do?
Swim towards the top.

Eh I'll give that one to you. Ok so you made an argument that yea, at an infant stage we do rely on instinct, but comon, at child to adult we at least rely on it alot less.


Ever own a dog?

Would your dog walk calmly over to the neighbor, and shit on his shoe?

No.


I dunno, I've seen Boston Terriers that has done that, but then again Boston Terriers are stupid dogs.


Becuase the dog knows that it would probably recieve an ass kicking from the aforementioned neighbor, and one from you, when he gets home.

Any neighbor that hurt my dog is going to get an ass kicking from me.



The only separation between us, is we have a more advanced society.
The rest is all imagined by those with grandiose desires to be "special" in some way.

I think the fact that we have reasons, feelings, emotions, logic, etc. Also plays into it.

A tad?? Dude, comon, when was the last time you've seen a chimpanzee with a 100 spoken word voc.?

How about a gorilla, with a 500 word vocabulary?

Names Koko.



All due to instinct. They do it because A. it's programmed into them and B. it's done out of necisscity.

The same reason why you wear more clothes when cold, or why "mr happy" gets a little larger when aroused.



They can't do more than what a 2 year old child can do. And yet, Zoogolist sells them for thousands of dollars....

Excellent..were making progress.
We now have you agreeing that human two year olds are no different that elephants.
Its progress of sorts.



That's nice, prove it.

Remember that gorilla I mentioned?
She seems to understand the concept of God.



Nope, man you really like personal attacks don't ya?

Dont look for something that isnt there.
You keep arguing something that is easily refuted, and Im gonna keep obliging to refute.



Apparently have anal sex with other male monkies, which is the bases the homosexual group use to prove that anal sex is natural.

At this time I would like to go on record that I don't hate homosexual, I'm not a homophope and I'm not one of those John Felt characters. Personally I don't give a damn who you sleep with or where you stick your penis or dildo. What you do in the privacy of your own home is none of my damn business.




And yet, my boss never anally raped me.

Yes I know that animals can do all of that stuff, whoopie doo. In case you haven't notice, it's because people been having unprotected sex with several (and I do mean several) other people is the reason we have the HIV/AIDs problem that we have now. If we were to follow your logic that we only have sex because it's programmed into us, then our STD HIV/AID problem would be much worst than it is now.



Wow.......

No..... the "dominant male monkey" thing was about how one monkey will climb the social pecking order through violence, or abusivness for mating rights.

Human males, often do the exact thing, in front of females.


I really have no idea where you got the gay tangent from.
But if you want some examples of gay activity from animals, we can do that too.

Did you know dolphins masturbate?

With tuna!

How about a gorilla, with a 500 word vocabulary?

Names Koko.

Yea I've heard of her, smart gorilla, but does she really understands it, that still remains to be proven. See, thats another thing that seperates us from animals, we can actually understand this shit. Animals, ehh maybe, maybe not. Mostly maybe not.



Excellent..were making progress.
We now have you agreeing that human two year olds are no different that elephants.
Its progress of sorts.


yea, but let be honest, what else does a 2 year old have to go on? It's still developing. See, theres another thing that seperate us. We may start out relying heavily on instinct, but we eventually rely on it less and less as time goes on and rely more on reasons, rationality etc. etc.


Remember that gorilla I mentioned?
She seems to understand the concept of God.


Key word is seems, prove that she does.


Dont look for something that isnt there.
You keep arguing something that is easily refuted, and Im gonna keep obliging to refute.


Well so far you've called me names, said several cute things, so yea, I don't think I'm just seeing things.


Wow.......

No..... the "dominant male monkey" thing was about how one monkey will climb the social pecking order through violence, or abusivness for mating rights.

Human males, often do the exact thing, in front of females.

Hmmm, I never killed anyone or hurt anyone for "mating rights".


I really have no idea where you got the gay tangent from.
But if you want some examples of gay activity from animals, we can do that too.

no.


Did you know dolphins masturbate?

With tuna!

Somehow, I think you're just pulling that out of your ass.

[QUOTE=BackwoodsSquatches]No, it probably happens more with humans.[/quiote]

[quote]That's nice, prove it.

If you insist...

Some animals mate seasonally.
Humans mate all year round.
Animals dont look at porn.
Humans do.

anything else?




Instinct and the need for surivial.

Nope...clear societal rules, and hierachies.






A real snake I can buy, but a stuff one? I dunno, usually at that age we can tell if something is a threat to us, a stuff snake doesn't seem to pose that much of a threat..

a six month old baby probably doesnt know the difference.




Eh I'll give that one to you. Ok so you made an argument that yea, at an infant stage we do rely on instinct, but comon, at child to adult we at least rely on it alot less.

See, I would say part of the wisdom of age, comes from knowing when to trust your instincts.







Any neighbor that hurt my dog is going to get an ass kicking from me.

As would I, however, the dog still would know better.





I think the fact that we have reasons, feelings, emotions, logic, etc. Also plays into it.

While were on the subject of dogs, lets use them as an example.

You telling me dogs dont have reasons, feelings, or emotions?

Key word is seems, prove that she does.

Prove that she doesnt.

Its wonderful that I finally get to use that argument on a christian.

The only proof you would get..is from the gorilla itself.
You could walk up to her and ask "Koko, do you know what God is?"

The gorilla will have an answer.

Who are you to disagree with her concept of God?





Hmmm, I never killed anyone or hurt anyone for "mating rights".

Ever got in a fight with anyone becuase he thought you were "hitting on his chick?"

Maybe not..but Im sure you know someone who has.






Somehow, I think you're just pulling that out of your ass.

If you have believed nothing else of what I have said, you can BANK on the fact that dolphins ocassionally masturbate with an unsuspecting tuna.

Sucks to be the tuna.

A real snake I can buy, but a stuff one? I dunno, usually at that age we can tell if something is a threat to us, a stuff snake doesn't seem to pose that much of a threat..

I gues he wasn't speaking about a cuddly toy here...



Eh I'll give that one to you. Ok so you made an argument that yea, at an infant stage we do rely on instinct, but comon, at child to adult we at least rely on it alot less.

Correct, but why is that? Because we start supressing them more and more.
The exact same happens and can be observed in any group of social animals. The child learns the rules of the groups and of how to get along with others gradually and will change it's behaviour from instinct reaction to socially accepted actions. A very good way of observing this is if an animal is put under stress by a situation arising in the group, for example a young male crossing the alpha male. The instinct reaction and the reaction a child would show would be to put up a fight, to show aggresssion towards the alpha. It's more likely though that the young male will back down, will show respectful behaviour towards the alpha, only to then go and display some displacement activity, like showing aggressive behaviour towards lower ranking members of the group, or inanimate objects.

If you have believed nothing else of what I have said, you can BANK on the fact that dolphins ocassionally masturbate with an unsuspecting tuna.

Sucks to be the tuna.

I haven't been able to find anything conclusive on this except for this excerpt from Wikipedia:

"It is not completely understood how other animals relate sexually, but current research studies suggest that animals, like humans, enjoy sexual relations. This is especially noted in dogs, dolphins, and bonobos."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_arousal#Sexual_arousal_in_other_animals

Though I did turn up this:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/06/04/uk.dolphin/

Seems like Georges was feeling a little lonely wasn't he ;)

Like what?
Because there's nothing special about that patch skin. So it would transmit on pretty much any skin-to-skin contact, hence not be a sexually transmitted disease, but just another touch transmitted disease.

Well sure....but most of the time when you are rubbing your thighs together with someone else your having sex...unless ya know, you rub em with some other person for fun.

I'm going to wait untill after marrage, or untill I am able to support myself and two other people easily. Which ever's first.

EDIT: I think it would be more ethical to wait till the latter happend.

Wait until marriage? I'd fathered 5 children by the time I got married.

What a mistake....







...the marraige I mean, not that other thing.

Yea that's why I'm not using The Bible.

If we are animals, then how come animals aren't building bridges, or airplanes, or anything like that? How come they don't go to work in cubicals and work from 9-5. etc. We are not animals.

Ok then how are certain animals self-aware?
Chimps have made war.

The superiority tables are defined by us so of course we seperate ourselves from all others. And yet we fall under the kingdom of mamalea.....

[QUOTE=BackwoodsSquatches]Because our brains are a tad bit more evolved than the average animal.
[quote]

A tad?? Dude, comon, when was the last time you've seen a chimpanzee with a 100 spoken word voc.?


Ok. Their vocal cords are different from ours so how does a human vocabulary come to play? Ever look into signing chimps. Washo has done pretty well and even has taken to teaching her son to sign(trying to make his fingers go to certain positions).

Shall we talk about problem solving? Chimps are pretty damn good at it.


All due to instinct. They do it because A. it's programmed into them and B. it's done out of necisscity.


Actually they do learn. Sure the basic instict is there but it has been abserved that if a design fails they do make ajustments. I just blanked on the guy who studied the ants.

Again Chimps and problem solving.....


They can't do more than what a 2 year old child can do. And yet, Zoogolist sells them for thousands of dollars....

Art has no definition. The fact remains they still paint.


Ehy my dog can sit, stay, fetch etc. Doesn't mean he understands what I'm telling him. He just listens for the familiar sound and sign language.

Ok do you understand the difference. Command response is different from say signing that he wants a cookie when he is not being tested.


They can do sign, they can type certain words on a special keyboard, but do they truely understand it?

Actually yes they do.


I think this is actually more of conditioning because for every right response that they give, they're given a treat.

Actually no they aren't; just for that reason.


Give me a month and I'll have my dog barking on command. Does that mean he understands what is going on? Nope. All it means is that he regonize the sound, sign language and he knows that if he does it right, he get's a treat.


Ok you do realize that a chimp has a higher level of thought then a dog right? Chimps are self aware. Are dogs? A chimp likes to look at itself in a mirror and my Dog will bark at the other dog in the reflection of the glass at night. ;)


That's nice, prove it.

Self-awarness by chimps as shown by Harlow.


Apparently have anal sex with other male monkies, which is the bases the homosexual group use to prove that anal sex is natural.


Ahh no. You do realise that homosexuality is not defined my anal intercourse right?

They don't insert.

Would you say that one male stroking another male be classified as kind of a homosexual act? The bonobos do that.


And yet, my boss never anally raped me.

Yes I know that animals can do all of that stuff, whoopie doo. In case you haven't notice, it's because people been having unprotected sex with several (and I do mean several) other people is the reason we have the HIV/AIDs problem that we have now. If we were to follow your logic that we only have sex because it's programmed into us, then our STD HIV/AID problem would be much worst than it is now.

Oooookayyyyyy. Well I would comment but this shows you really don't understand this subject. If you like I can teach you a few things to correct your misperceptions.....

Yep, like the old saying goes "Sometimes the best gift comes in small packages." That 3% does seperate us from the Chimpanzee and that does make all of the diffrence in the world.


Seperates us how? Looks sure. Locomotion? Sure. Vocalization? Sure?

Yet.

They are self aware.
They problem solve.
They lie.
They make war.
They have a political system.
They have vices(the fabled Cheetah loves cigars and booze).

And yet, animals don't equate sex with love, we do, well some of us. Personally I think this whole we are animals thing is a slipperly slope. If we are animals, then I should be able to go and smear my shit in my neighbors face. I mean we got to have some seperation from homo-sapiens and animals.

Actually they throw it. Humans actually smear it. Just ask some mothers about "art work" :eek: My sister did that.

Well sure....but most of the time when you are rubbing your thighs together with someone else your having sex...unless ya know, you rub em with some other person for fun. Are you saying that no one ever slow dances at beach parties?

I'm sure there are other ways to rub two people's thighs together that doesn't involve sex.

For all you people worries about STDs, I have to ask, are you as worried about hepatitus? Yes, you can get hepatitus through sex, but it is an extremely virulent virus that can be passed through any contact with bodily fluids. For example, if you are a busperson or a dishwasher in a restaurant, and you pick up a dirty fork, and you just happen to have a nick on your hand - you could get hepatitus if an infected person had used that fork.

For the record, I am unmarried and have never been married. I first had sex 18 years ago, and the last 10 years have mostly been monogamous, although we have occasionally invited others to our bed. I am pleased to say that I have never been infected with an STD, nor have I ever been pregnant. And frankly, I have very rarely used condoms. Instead, I use the birth control pill and an (informal) screening process. In other words, I don't sleep with people I don't know well.

Are you saying that no one ever slow dances at beach parties?

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm slow dancing at a beach party, rubbing my bare thighs against some womans bare thighs, I'm having sex soon afterward...


so the point is moot.:p