NationStates Jolt Archive

On my 16th birthday I got a purity ring when I decided that I was going to wait till i got married to have sex.
I was just wondering how many NSr's are going to wait untill marrage to have sex.
EDIT: if its not to bold to ask, but will you guys, if you feel comfortable, say why you have made the choice that you have/did?

If everybody waited 'till marriage, the world would be a much better place.

RUN! Run you fool! The last thread like this brought forth flames from the very earth, RUN!

*ahem* Sorry, my fiancee and I are not waiting.

If everybody waited 'till marriage, the world would be a much better place.

Bold statement. Why?

too late....though in retrospect it certaintly would have had its upsides, i dont regret my decision. ive been with my girlfriend for about 3 years (living with her for almost 6 months), and shes been my only partner.

Too late here. Broke up with her....but good times while we were together though. :D

I don't see why. According to my dad, having sex with *the one* is very different from having sex with a hot chick. There is having sex and there is making love. Therefore, it will still be magic, and I'll be able to appreciate that magic by realizing that I feel a lot more.

To me, I don't see a logical reason of why to deny myself sexual pleasure before experiencing love.

Lemmie put it this way - not if I can help it.

I have never seen a reasonable argument for waiting until marriage(and I was raised Catholic, so I've heard most of 'em). As such I conclude it is a morally neutral choice and completely up to individual preference. My preference would be to not wait.

no way, sex kicks ass

My wife and I waited because of her committed religious beliefs (although I had been with other women previously). Frankly, I voted not to wait, but I lost 1 to 1. Unfortunately in love, ties usually go to the lady...

I don't see why. According to my dad, having sex with *the one* is very different from having sex with a hot chick. There is having sex and there is making love. Therefore, it will still be magic, and I'll be able to appreciate that magic by realizing that I feel a lot more.

To me, I don't see a logical reason of why to deny myself sexual pleasure before experiencing love.
for me i decided that first i did not want to risk geting pregnant or getting an std. and second i decided that if and when i ever get married the best thing that i could give to my husband would be my virginity, it would let him know taht i loved him enough be for i had even met him to wait for him.

If everybody waited 'till marriage, the world would be a much better place.Bold statement. Why?
STD's would be a thing of the past (well, far few people would have them). There would be none of the "one person spreading to 20 others" type thing.

There would be a significant drop in the number of people having kids when they obviously can't support them and "accidents".

It would have a resounding impact on economics, especially for poorer nations. Because families strongly tend to do better than single parent homes.

I'm gonna wait.

for me i decided that first i did not want to risk geting pregnant or getting an std.

Of course those are very valid concerns, and may be the direct cause of my future reluctance to have sexual intercourse.

and second i decided that if and when i ever get married the best thing that i could give to my husband would be my virginity, it would let him know taht i loved him enough be for i had even met him to wait for him.

To me it seems that you're giving him a gift without knowing who he is. You seem to think that giving your virginity is a substantial gift, ok, I won't dispute that. The only problem is that you decided to give that to him before you even met him or knew him. A gift kind of loses its value if it's being given to person you've never known.

That's what I feel it would be like, you're giving him a gift when you don't even know him. In my opinion, what makes gifts special is how personal they are, and this wouldn't be very personal.

STD's would be a thing of the past (well, far few people would have them). There would be none of the "one person spreading to 20 others" type thing.

There would be a significant drop in the number of people having kids when they obviously can't support them and "accidents".

It would have a resounding impact on economics, especially for poorer nations. Because families strongly tend to do better than single parent homes.

They're called 'condoms.'

Bold statement. Why?

Assuming that the marriage is going to last, then all sex will be virgin sex, thereby totally neutralizing STDs.

They're called 'condoms.'

They're not 100% effective.

To me it seems that you're giving him a gift without knowing who he is. You seem to think that giving your virginity is a substantial gift, ok, I won't dispute that. The only problem is that you decided to give that to him before you even met him or knew him. A gift kind of loses its value if it's being given to person you've never known.

That's what I feel it would be like, you're giving him a gift when you don't even know him. In my opinion, what makes gifts special is how personal they are, and this wouldn't be very personal.

how cant that be personal? :confused:
it will be some one i know, iam not going to marry a random guy:p

for me i decided that first i did not want to risk geting pregnant or getting an std. and second i decided that if and when i ever get married the best thing that i could give to my husband would be my virginity, it would let him know taht i loved him enough be for i had even met him to wait for him.

That's really deep. I'm a dude, and I honestly haven't developed an opinion about the matter. Still a virgin and just graduated high school beginning of last summer. I guess I don't really have the drive or motivation for sex just yet. Not to say there aren't things up to it. ;) There are other ways to have fun, if sex is a fun thing. I'd think it'd be a bit more serious. Either way, I take my relationships seriously and keep things real. I've been told "have fun while you can." But working at a major corporation full time for a supervisor you can't stand and coworkers you can't tolerate doesn't leave much room for fun. Plus, I'm probably the youngest person working there, so hooking up with those who are 21+ is kinda out of the question. But not to rule out the fact that if I found a girl that I can't stop thinking about, can't see myself in life without her, and she feels the same way, and our relationship comes around to sex, then I don't see why not. So if before I'm married, great, if not, just as good. As long as she and I are happy about it in the end.

Assuming that the marriage is going to last, then all sex will be virgin sex, thereby totally neutralizing STDs.

I would say that strictly, that's not true - even if they do wait until marriage, there's no guarantee everyone is going to stick with the same partner for life (and nor should they, if they don't want to).

They're not 100% effective.

Niether is the automobile billions use to commute to work every day.

Should we all abstain from cars? Nope.


EDIT - Plus, condoms are highly effective. People who use condoms every time have only a 0.02% risk of pregnancy(Hatcher RA et al. Contraceptive Technology, 18th rev. ed. New York: Ardent Media, 2004.) and a 90-95% protection from HIV(http://www.salud.gob.mx/conasida/preven/condon/pinker01.htm). Safety isn't a logical reason with the humble condom being this good.

how cant that be personal? :confused:
it will be some one i know, iam not going to marry a random guy:p

No it won't. When you decide to give your gift of virginity only after marriage, you're deciding to give a gift to someone you don't know (for you don't know who you will marry). That is not personal in the least.

They're called 'condoms.'
And abortions!

No it won't. When you decide to give your gift of virginity only after marriage, you're deciding to give a gift to someone you don't know (for you don't know who you will marry). That is not personal in the least.
hum, well i dont quite get what your saying. but its your opinion and its nice to see your ideas.

And abortions!

Sometimes yes, assuming the party invovled is willing to have an abortion.

Niether is the automobile billions use to commute to work every day.

Should we all abstain from cars? Nope.

about the cars...some people say yep, we should:)

I would say that strictly, that's not true - even if they do wait until marriage, there's no guarantee everyone is going to stick with the same partner for life (and nor should they, if they don't want to).

I heard somewhere that 50% of marriages last until both parties die. Whatever the number is, here's my reasoning (assume 50% and substitute it if it's wrong):

By having sex only after marriage (in a successful ever-lasting marriage), you will have two virgins having sex only with each other. STDs are impossible.

If this 50% decides to have sex before marriage, then they will not be having virgin sex, and the chances of NO STDs are much lower.

The other 50% are screwed.

The important thing is that by having sex only after marriage, then 50% of married couples will be 100% free of STDs.

Sure, that's only 50%, and of just married couples, but it's something.

EDIT - Plus, condoms are highly effective. People who use condoms every time have only a 0.02% risk of pregnancy(Hatcher RA et al. Contraceptive Technology, 18th rev. ed. New York: Ardent Media, 2004.) and a 90-95% protection from HIV(http://www.salud.gob.mx/conasida/preven/condon/pinker01.htm). Safety isn't a logical reason with the humble condom being this good.

Of course, if you're really concerned about that 0.02%, you could just settle for a blowjob.

about the cars...some people say yep, we should:)

Then those people are beyond reason, and they scare me.

If we stopped doing things simply because they have a negligible chance of harming us, we couldn't do jack. Hell vending machines kill dozens of people around the world a year... perhaps God wants us to abstain from automatic dispensers?:p

hum, well i dont quite get what your saying. but its your opinion and its nice to see your ideas.

Sorry I can't explain myself better :(

But I do understand your decision, and it is virtuous.

The important thing is that by having sex only after marriage, then 50% of married couples will be 100% free of STDs.


Uh-huh, but...Have we got reliable statistics of the percentage of people with STDs? I really strongly doubt that more than 50% of married couples have them anyway...

Hell vending machines kill dozens of people around the world a year... perhaps God wants us to abstain from automatic dispensers?:p

They do? I'm assuming you mean by having them fall on top of people, rather than pelting people in the head with coke cans, because you'll give me a phobia...

Of course, if you're really concerned about that 0.02%, you could just settle for a blowjob.

Well yes.... which gives me a brilliant plan.

Ladies! Looking for that 100% foolproof birth control? Well look no further! Our scientists laboured dilligently to bring you the astounding results - a 100% natural, 100% effective birth control - Oral Sex!
Brought to you by Dupont - on the cutting edge of Sex.

I didn't wait, and I regret it. Now that I've found the man I'm going to be with the rest of my life I often wish that I had waited. IMO Life and love is a lot simpler, emotionally and physically, the fewer partners you have.

They do? I'm assuming you mean by having them fall on top of people, rather than pelting people in the head with coke cans, because you'll give me a phobia...

Well the statistics usually mean people crushed under vending machines... but we can't rule out the freak accident. Or something worse....

Those vending machines... just lurking there.... waiting... I know they're up to something.... :shiftyeyes:

This probably isn't helping the phobia though...

Sorry I can't explain myself better :(

But I do understand your decision, and it is virtuous.
meh dont worry about it. there is some thing about computers that keeps people from properly explaing themselves. :)

Originally Posted by Kroisistan
Hell vending machines kill dozens of people around the world a year... perhaps God wants us to abstain from automatic dispensers?

maybe.... but think of all the darwin awards that could never be handed out otherwise

Uh-huh, but...Have we got reliable statistics of the percentage of people with STDs? I really strongly doubt that more than 50% of married couples have them anyway...

Well the thing is that the long-lasting married couples are not 100% free of STDs, because some of them have had people who have NOT abstained until marriage. Whatever they are, they'd be 100% free of STDs with no sex until marriage.

Well yes.... which gives me a brilliant plan.

Ladies! Looking for that 100% foolproof birth control? Well look no further! Our scientists laboured dilligently to bring you the astounding results - a 100% natural, 100% effective birth control - Oral Sex!
Brought to you by Dupont - on the cutting edge of Sex.

:D

Beware of the competition, Buttsecks™...

I heard somewhere that 50% of marriages last until both parties die. Whatever the number is, here's my reasoning (assume 50% and substitute it if it's wrong):

By having sex only after marriage (in a successful ever-lasting marriage), you will have two virgins having sex only with each other. STDs are impossible.

If this 50% decides to have sex before marriage, then they will not be having virgin sex, and the chances of NO STDs are much lower.

The other 50% are screwed.

The important thing is that by having sex only after marriage, then 50% of married couples will be 100% free of STDs.

Sure, that's only 50%, and of just married couples, but it's something.

I'm not so sure about that whole no STD thing. I mean...they had to come from somewhere that had no relation to sex or anything. Take AIDS for example....there's a theory that it came from a monkey. I don't know about that, but you can honestly never rule out genetics and genetic mutation. Think about that...if you have a whole STD free world, and poof...here comes along a genetic mutation (and I'm sure we all know genetic mutations don't mean three eyes or a tenticle). That genetic mutation passes on...multiple offspring are produced, and thousands and thousands of years later, it's passed on to many, many people who now all suffer from this mutation, which is more or less classified as a disease because of the level of progression it's obtained. But these STDs you guys are talking of are virus based, because they're contagious. Viruses mutate as well. In fact, they mutate even faster than humans. So what's to say that the HIV virus, was once upon a time, a simple cold virus that's just mutated from one branch. You can't rule out STDs just by EVERYONE practicing safe sex or monogamy. You severely limit it...but you don't completely destroy it, because, as the guy from Jurassic Park said it, "life finds a way."

Well yes.... which gives me a brilliant plan.

Ladies! Looking for that 100% foolproof birth control? Well look no further! Our scientists laboured dilligently to bring you the astounding results - a 100% natural, 100% effective birth control - Oral Sex!
Brought to you by Dupont - on the cutting edge of Sex.

Or dry sex. It's like sex, but to a lesser degree.

maybe.... but think of all the darwin awards that could never be handed out otherwise

True.... *pontificates*

I guess in this instance, safety must bow to my desire to laugh at other's misfortunes.

Well the statistics usually mean people crushed under vending machines... but we can't rule out the freak accident. Or something worse....

Those vending machines... just lurking there.... waiting... I know they're up to something.... :shiftyeyes:

This probably isn't helping the phobia though...

It would be awesome if someone built a vending-machine robot that spat cans at people, though.

:D

Beware of the competition, Buttsecks™...

but... but... you can't just take my intellectual property, turn it into a suppository and call it something different?! You Vandal!

*snip*

STDs can only be transmitted through sexual intercourse (btw, as far as I know my definitions, oral sex is sexual intercourse, in case you're about to tell me that STDs can be transmitted through oral sex).

I heard that STDs came from farmers having sex with their goats.

Regardless, no matter what new STDs would be mutate, the current ones would be eliminated and their transmission would be severely hurt.

Or dry sex. It's like sex, but to a lesser degree.

from what i have learned in science class about sex, that sounds as though it could be a rather painful operation.
and if i have compleatly missed what you were trying to say please for give my ignorance:)

Beware of the competition, Buttsecks™...

It's the sensation that's ramming the nation.

It would be awesome if someone built a vending-machine robot that spat cans at people, though.

Wow. Did you notices that in 3 pages, a thread on sex before marriage turned into a discussion of Death Robot Vending Machines? What a brave new world, that hath such people in it.:)

If everybody waited 'till marriage, the world would be a much better place.
Well at least it would help cut down on the population. Weddings are expensive.

It's the sensation that's ramming the nation.

ROFLMAO. Magnificant.:)

I heard that STDs came from farmers having sex with their goats.


I hope that wasn't a stab at my region of residence...o_O If so...wes gots ourselfs a hogtiedbonafiedprideandglory disergreement.

It's the sensation that's ramming the nation.

LMAO!

Well at least it would help cut down on the population. Weddings are expensive.

Vegas is quite cheap, you know. It's not the marrige, it's the pretense that costs you. (Marriage costs you your virility, but that's a different issue.)

for me i decided that first i did not want to risk geting pregnant or getting an std. and second i decided that if and when i ever get married the best thing that i could give to my husband would be my virginity, it would let him know taht i loved him enough be for i had even met him to wait for him.

babe, I know sex education in the US is absolutely shit, but you can use a condom, take the pill, use a diaphram, in fact, why not be caucious and use all of the above!?

As for 'having sex', lets not trying to elevate it to a higher status than it really is; maybe if we didn't make such a bloody big deal about it, we wouldn't have randy guys tryign to get into girls panties so that they can lose theirs and then boast about who they 'rooted' on the weekend.

Me? I lost my virginity at 16 to my best friend - he was so cute when I said yes :D Would I do it again? why not - I certainly don't feel 'less of a person' because of having a fling.

It's the sensation that's ramming the nation.
your whit never ceases to amaze me:) nicely done

waiting because of lack of people that <3 me

from what i have learned in science class about sex, that sounds as though it could be a rather painful operation.
and if i have compleatly missed what you were trying to say please for give my ignorance:)

You just don't understand what that is and how pleasant it can be.

babe, I know sex education in the US is absolutely shit, but you can use a condom, take the pill, use a diaphram, in fact, why not be caucious and use all of the above!?

As for 'having sex', lets not trying to elevate it to a higher status than it really is; maybe if we didn't make such a bloody big deal about it, we wouldn't have randy guys tryign to get into girls panties so that they can lose theirs and then boast about who they 'rooted' on the weekend.

Me? I lost my virginity at 16 to my best friend - he was so cute when I said yes :D Would I do it again? why not - I certainly don't feel 'less of a person' because of having a fling.

yes i do know about the pill ect....but i would rather wait.
i know that some disagree with me, but its their life they can do what they want.

To be perfectly honest, I used to believe that I would absolutely stay a virgin when I was a pre-teen (however, I also believed that masturbation and homosexualism was wrong, and I'm now a fully-functioning 16 year old bisexual female).

I myself was born out of wedlock. BUT... my parents were both divorced and had both lost their virginity after being wed. So although a lack of pre-martial sex could possibly slow the spread of disease and out-of-wedlock children, it's certainly not a cure-all (especially with the surging divorce rate).

My reason that I won't wait until I'm married to have sex is this - I believe that to have a healthy, happy relationship with someone, you have to both know them very intimately and know yourself. Sex, whether it be fucking or making love, is a deeply spiritual thing. One gains further insight to themselves through it, in ways they cannot achieve by merely imagining what the experience would be like. This could be very vital to a person's entire being, thus affecting the person they become and seek out in love. Also, to have a successful relationship, a couple needs to have a satisfactory sex life. If one doesn't at least have sex with their to-be life partner, they should have at least had sexual experience before to know whether the chemistry between their partner will flow together beautifully or clash miserably (this knowledge would have to be obtained through deep discussion of past experience). Else, if the sexual relationship ends up horrible for one or both parties, it is likely and within human nature that the unfulfilled partner(s) would seek out sexual pleasure by other means (porn, masturbation to the point of ignoring partner, cheating, strip bars, etc.), that could lead to deterioration in the trust of the marital relationship and end the marriage all together.

...and that's why I'm not waiting.

(BTW, I completely understand the 'virginity as a present' thing, as I used to and still slightly feel the same, only I think I will reserve it the person I truly love after I turn 18. [There can be many loves in one's life, and there is also the possibility of not marrying someone you deeply love whom you feel deserves a gift such as that.] But I understand it. It's a physical and spiritual gift of both pleasure and trust.)

You just don't understand what that is and how pleasant it can be.
your right i have no idea what it is.

Which brings me to another point: test drive it before you buy it.

I'm not saying that choosing your wife should depend on the quality of sex, but sex is going to be a big part of your life, and it should be good. If it's not, it's going to cause rifts. Whether sex will be pleasant with your wife or not is as important as whether she'll get a good job, whether she'll cling on to annoying habits that you dislike, whether she'll do anything that will displease you and vice-versa to all.

Horribly unpleasant sex can make a marriage very aggravating as much as all those other things (and plenty more) can.

(added) I wrote it from my perspective, but it applies as much to "she" as to "he".

your right i have no idea what it is.

It's body humping.

With clothes: It's arranging the reproduction organs such that pressing them onto each other causes pleasure. Or at least close enough. For example, pressing your penis (as it is up) into a girl's ass while both your clothes are on. It's pleasant to both if you do it right, and an excellent alternative to intercourse. (It's called sexual outercourse)

Which brings me to another point: test drive it before you buy it.

I'm not saying that choosing your wife should depend on the quality of sex, but sex is going to be a big part of your life, and it should be good. If it's not, it's going to cause rifts. Whether sex will be pleasant with your wife or not is as important as whether she'll get a good job, whether she'll cling on to annoying habits that you dislike, whether she'll do anything that will displease you and vice-versa to all.

Horribly unpleasant sex can make a marriage very aggravating as much as all those other things (and plenty more) can.

(added) I wrote it from my perspective, but it applies as much to "she" as to "he".

but if both people have never had sex, how can they know the differance of "good" sex as oposed to "bad".


by the way iam a she :)

STDs can only be transmitted through sexual intercourse (btw, as far as I know my definitions, oral sex is sexual intercourse, in case you're about to tell me that STDs can be transmitted through oral sex).

So kissing and blood transfusion is classified as sex also?

but if both people have never had sex, how can they know the differance of "good" sex as oposed to "bad".


by the way iam a she :)

Well it seems pretty obvious - if it was pleasurable for both parties, it was good sex.

If it was painful/unfulfilling and ended with crying... it was probably bad sex. Unless you're into that sort of thing.

ROFLMAO. Magnificant.:)

LMAO!

your whit never ceases to amaze me:) nicely done

Thank you, thank you. Be sure to tip your waitress!

Its too late for me to wait.

iam waiting.:)

STDs can only be transmitted through sexual intercourse (btw, as far as I know my definitions, oral sex is sexual intercourse, in case you're about to tell me that STDs can be transmitted through oral sex).

I heard that STDs came from farmers having sex with their goats.

Regardless, no matter what new STDs would be mutate, the current ones would be eliminated and their transmission would be severely hurt.


...it really has nothing to do with sex. If you actually read a little bit before hitting the keys in front of you it would become obvious that STDs are simply diseases trasmitted through certain bodily fluids. The monkey theory comes from someone who was bitten by a monkey with HIV. It cannot be transmitted through saliva but since this person was getting bitten they may have injured it and gotten the monkey's infected blood in their wound. Having sex with animals could also have been the cause but is much more unlikely than a simple struggle with a violent infected animal.

As for "the current ones would be eliminated" that doesn't make any sense at all. Viruses and Bacteria do not work like people. There is no value in individual germs, if a strain mutates and the old one dies out that really doesn't mean anything. The organism lives on it is simply a very fast form of evolution. All it means is our medicines and defenses may not work anymore.

Of course I'm not going to deny abstinence is technically the best way to prevent STDs and pregnancy. There are very good ways of preventing these things anyways though and they do not exclude eachother. Using multiple forms of protection brings the chances of infection or pregnancy very very close to 0%. You need to educate yourself before making any decisions. Sex is simply a physical act. We put value into it. Make it what you want it to be. Sex with someone you love is going to be just as good no matter if you have stuck your johnson inside some choir girl or not no matter what anyone tries to tell you. As far as girls go it would simply negate the sometimes painful first time. But as I said it's up to you, just make sure you actually know what your talking about before you make life decisions.

yes i do know about the pill ect....but i would rather wait.
i know that some disagree with me, but its their life they can do what they want.

Well, do what you want, but need I remind you, being a virgin doesn't stop you from contracting an STD, considering that you boyfriend could have been sexually active before you met him - so lets not try to think that being a virgin and all pure (and associated BS) is the panacea to STDs.

What is the cure is personality responsibility - looking after number one by demanding that the other partner put something over his knob before he has his way with you - and yes, even if a relationship use a condom! this the real world, not the world of elves, pixies and GWB being appointed by God.

On my 16th birthday I got a purity ring when I decided that I was going to wait till i got married to have sex.
I was just wondering how many NSr's are going to wait untill marrage to have sex.
EDIT: if its not to bold to ask, but will you guys, if you feel comfortable, say why you have made the choice that you have/did?

Yep, I'm waiting til I'm married. Why? Cause I believe that that's the way God designed sex to be... ie inside marriage

Also cause it'll be more special

but if both people have never had sex, how can they know the differance of "good" sex as oposed to "bad".


by the way iam a she :)

Ah, yes one of the popular and most God awful arguments for maintaining your virginity until marriage. There is good sex, and there is bad sex. If it sucks you probably won't even get off (girls mostly) and you will know it. Also if your sex with your one and only partner doesn't live up to what you anticipated it should be that will definately cause a rift and maybe some straying to find out what you are missing.

Sex is just a physical act between two people. Really good sex with someone you love can feel like much more than that physically and emotionally but that is still what it is. You will definately know you are having bad sex after a few tries.

Sex takes alot of practice. Why should the person you marry have to deal with the first patehtic attempt?

but if both people have never had sex, how can they know the differance of "good" sex as oposed to "bad".


by the way iam a she :)

They know what masturbation feels like, and the sex is so bad it's worse than masturbating by themselves.

Sex takes alot of practice. Why should the person you marry have to deal with the first patehtic attempt?

Haha add on however many years of sexual fustration and you are talking about some pretty shitty wedding night sex. My first time was with a girl who was also a virgin and trust me we both knew it wasn't the best it could be ::shudder:: Luckily it was fun honing our skills. :p

So kissing and blood transfusion is classified as sex also?

Um, I'm pretty much sure that my memory's defintion of INTERcourse involves both "INSIDE" and "reproductive organ" at the same time.

Therefore:

Kissing is not intercourse, for there is no organ inside anyone.
Blood transfusion again involves no organ.
Sex is obviously intercourse because the penis is inside the vagine.
Oral sex is intercourse because the penis is inside the girl (inside her mouth), and because the guy's tongue is inside the girl's vagina (both cases involve an organ being an insider or insidee).

Haha add on however many years of sexual fustration and you are talking about some pretty shitty wedding night sex. My first time was with a girl who was also a virgin and trust me we both knew it wasn't the best it could be ::shudder:: Luckily it was fun honing our skills. :pPractice makes perfect....though it wasn't quite as much fun for piano, I'm happy to comply with the old addage in this case. I've got some hard numbers on record to show the progress too.

STD's would be a thing of the past (well, far few people would have them). There would be none of the "one person spreading to 20 others" type thing.

You do know that STDs are transmitted through means other than sex, right? Such as blood transfusions (though that risk has decreased over the years), sharing needles or an infected person's blood getting into an open cut or wound. Any situation where bodily fluids would be exchanged puts you at risk.

There would be a significant drop in the number of people having kids when they obviously can't support them and "accidents".

There are plenty of married couples that have more kids than they can handle. (Looks sidelong at a few of her relatives.)

It would have a resounding impact on economics, especially for poorer nations. Because families strongly tend to do better than single parent homes.

Where do you get this from? In many poorer nations, a woman's sexual freedom is severely limited. Usually, she loses her virginity to her husband and lives in poverty anyway. That is, if she isn't raped by roving soldiers or a disease-ridden douchebag that believes having sex with a virgin will cure him.

As for how HIV probably started, the general consensus is that it started somewhere in Africa, where many tribal rituals use monkey blood. Since we share a good portion of our DNA with monkeys, HIV probably didn't have to adapt all that much to be able to successfully infect humans.

On a personal note, I didn't wait until marraige, but I did marry my "first." As has been said before, sex is a very big part of married life. If your husband is lousy in bed, it's going to cause problems. And if you don't even know how your own body reacts to different stimuli, how the hell is he going to know? My husband knew my reservations about sex, which were created by a previous abusive relationship. So he was good enough to take things slowly with me and find out what worked and what didn't. So when I was ready to give my virginity, it was a pretty good experience. We didn't even marry until three years later.

I'm definetly waiting.

You're kidding, right?

Well, first of all I've no intention of getting married, ever.
And why would I want to wait for a signed piece of paper before having fun???

It's far too late, anyway :D

Um, I'm pretty much sure that my memory's defintion of INTERcourse involves both "INSIDE" and "reproductive organ" at the same time.

Therefore:

Kissing is not intercourse, for there is no organ inside anyone.
Blood transfusion again involves no organ.
Sex is obviously intercourse because the penis is inside the vagine.
Oral sex is intercourse because the penis is inside the girl (inside her mouth), and because the guy's tongue is inside the girl's vagina (both cases involve an organ being an insider or insidee).

Yeah, but "kissing and blood transfusions" are also ways to transmit sexually transmitted diseases, and, under your logic, they should be considered sexual activities when they are not. Furthermore, several STD's can be spread in other ways- HIV primarily spreads through blood and can be transmitted through body fluid exchanges (e.g. infected needles), syphilis can be transmitted by skin contact (as can genital warts), herpes can be spread via kissing, etc.

STD's would be a thing of the past (well, far few people would have them). There would be none of the "one person spreading to 20 others" type thing.

Bacteria and virii don't know- or care- whether or not an individual is married. Herpes stays with the person for the rest of their lives, and syphilis and HIV can take up to ten years to really manifest themselves. Plus, I (and others) have pointed out that STD's can be transmitted in other ways, so abstinence is no cure-all.

No I am not.

Why? 1. Sex is a part of relationships, and I believe that like other parts of relationships it should should be practiced and honed before committing to your one life partner. 2. I am armed with condoms.

2. I am armed with condoms.
They don't do anyone any good on your arms... :p

Personnally I would never marry anyone without having had sex with them, or without having been with them for a good few years and having lived with them for a significant length of time. I refuse to sign up to be with someone until death do us part without having shared these vital experiences. Marriage is a big fucking deal, and you are only treating it as less than it is by denying yourself every possible factor for consideration before entering into that contract.

Besides, saying that std's would be a thing of the past if everyone waited until marriage is a load of horseshit. While it is technically true, it wouldn't be worth it. I'll take the slim chance of stds associated with safe sex over a world as repressed as the one that would create. Sex is a natural human impulse, while marriage is not. People are going to have sex outside of marriage, and admitting to that would be the greatest realistic std inhibitor. Abstinence only education is a great cause of ignorant people practicing unsafe sex. This increases both the spread of stds and unwanted pregnancies.

Meh, I'm impatient and I couldn't get a girl anyway, off to the bars with me, and after a long night of whatever, sneak out first thing in the morning to go see if FPS-Doug is willing to kick my ass again :sniper: BOOM! HEADSHOT!

I'm 21 years old, virgin. I am waiting for marriage/long lasting commited relationship. I believe that in order to have sex with a person, and for it to mean something, EVERY other aspect of the relationship must be established first. You got to have trust, faith, honesty etc etc. I never saw the logic of just having sex with random people. I mean that's like playing Russian Roulette. One chamber contain STD, another unwanted pregency etc. I substained from sex because 1. I'm not ready to be a dad (nor I want to be a dad), 2. I have enough problems with my body I don't need STD to pile onto it. 3. I never had a relationship where everything else is established. 4. I'm Roman Catholic, so yea, we...got....the...whole thing there.

I didn't wait for marriage. I waited for when it was right. I remember her with a great fondness. However, there is no way we would have lasted as a couple. Never mind the fact that her father hated me. ;)

I will give you the advice I gave another.

Imagine the last person on the planet with whom you would want to have sex. Now imagine doing it with them. Now keep in mind that person is the one you will remember for the rest of your life.

My wife had more partners then me. We are going on 15 years now.

Sex is a great part of marriage. If you are lucky to find that person with whom you "click" on all fronts, that is a blessing in itself.

Don't do the purity thing unless you want to. People will tell you all sorts of garbage about why it's better. It's bull. One set of grandparents did the wait thing and they were indeed married for over 50 years. They also really didn't like each other as well.

Do what is right for you. Don't follow what is expected of you by others. Everybody is different.

I'm 21 years old, virgin. I am waiting for marriage/long lasting commited relationship. I believe that in order to have sex with a person, and for it to mean something, EVERY other aspect of the relationship must be established first. You got to have trust, faith, honesty etc etc.


It sounds simple but I can tell you it takes work. You are deluding yourself if you think you will have everything in place before you are married. People change. You will change.


I never saw the logic of just having sex with random people. I mean that's like playing Russian Roulette. One chamber contain STD, another unwanted pregency etc.

Well you do have to be smart about it. Simply nailing anything that moves. Yes. Going after hookers. Yes.

Dating somebody for a spell. No.


I substained from sex because 1. I'm not ready to be a dad (nor I want to be a dad),

Well that is religious based. Sex isn't alway for procreation only.


2. I have enough problems with my body I don't need STD to pile onto it.

STDs aren't always going to happen. A friend in college was a bit of a slut. She nailed 15 guys in one semester. She was fine.


3. I never had a relationship where everything else is established.

I am sorry to tell you. Everything will not be established. You have to work at the relationship. Especially marriage.


4. I'm Roman Catholic, so yea, we...got....the...whole thing there.
Poor fellow. I guess it depends on the version. I had both the heavy guilt version and the hey everybody makes mistakes.

It took me a few years to learn that you shouldn't be afraid of mistakes. They are what give us our character.

It sounds simple but I can tell you it takes work. You are deluding yourself if you think you will have everything in place before you are married. People change. You will change.

Yes, but before I am willing to sleep with someone, I must be able to trust them, I must be in a long term commited relationship with them, and I must know that they love me inside and out with all of their heart.


Well you do have to be smart about it. Simply nailing anything that moves. Yes. Going after hookers. Yes.

Dating somebody for a spell. No.


I am being smart about it, birth controls aren't 100% effective, only abscent is.


Well that is religious based. Sex isn't alway for procreation only.


You will find that most of my decision regarding sex, or other aspect of my life does have some religion in it.


STDs aren't always going to happen. A friend in college was a bit of a slut. She nailed 15 guys in one semester. She was fine.


Wow, what a whore. Also, just because she's fine now, doesn't mean she'll be fine later. STD can still show up in your body years down the road.


I am sorry to tell you. Everything will not be established. You have to work at the relationship. Especially marriage.


look above.


Poor fellow. I guess it depends on the version. I had both the heavy guilt version and the hey everybody makes mistakes.

It took me a few years to learn that you shouldn't be afraid of mistakes. They are what give us our character.

You pity me because I am Roman Catholic and that I try to live my life according to the word of God and Jesus? How is it that you pity me for simply trying to lead a trouble free life the best way I know how, and yet, I pity you because it seems like religion has gotten in the way of your "fun", so you got rid of it.

You're kidding, right?

Well, first of all I've no intention of getting married, ever.
And why would I want to wait for a signed piece of paper before having fun???

It's far too late, anyway :D

good for you whats the point of marrige anyway

I am being smart about it, birth controls aren't 100% effective, only abscent is.

There is always an error percentage. Just with abstinance. People fail all the time. That big pledge they had a few years ago, most that signed it failed.


You will find that most of my decision regarding sex, or other aspect of my life does have some religion in it.

Hey if it works for you. So be it.


Wow, what a whore. Also, just because she's fine now, doesn't mean she'll be fine later. STD can still show up in your body years down the road.


Being judgemental is just as bad as being a whore.

Again there are not guarantees to the result.


You pity me because I am Roman Catholic and that I try to live my life according to the word of God and Jesus? How is it that you pity me for simply trying to lead a trouble free life the best way I know how, and yet, I pity you because it seems like religion has gotten in the way of your "fun", so you got rid of it.

And you base this one what? You are rather judgmental aren't you?

I left the Church due to it's moral hypocracy over the pedophile Priests.

Yes, but before I am willing to sleep with someone, I must be able to trust them, I must be in a long term commited relationship with them, and I must know that they love me inside and out with all of their heart.


Alright, nothing to do with marriage. cool.


I am being smart about it, birth controls aren't 100% effective, only abscent is.


Read a book. Combining multiple forms of birth control is very very close to 100%. If you can't handle the .02% you should probably cover yourself in bubble wrap and hide under your bed. We are intellegent beings, sorta, learn the facts and stop listening to the Church when it comes to science.


You will find that most of my decision regarding sex, or other aspect of my life does have some religion in it.


If it was all about religion than stop trying to bullshit other reasons. If you want old pedophiles to tell you where to put your cock that is your perrogative.


Wow, what a whore. Also, just because she's fine now, doesn't mean she'll be fine later. STD can still show up in your body years down the road.


Ever heard of testing genius? Even for those STDs that take a little time to manifest to testing procedures don't take a few years. Once again I really wish you would read a book besides the Bible once in a while. Or at least keep your "facts" that come out of your ass to yourself. Oh yea and I'm pretty sure our pal Jesus doesn't appreciate judgemental assholes calling woman whores. He hung out with a prostitute.


You pity me because I am Roman Catholic and that I try to live my life according to the word of God and Jesus? How is it that you pity me for simply trying to lead a trouble free life the best way I know how, and yet, I pity you because it seems like religion has gotten in the way of your "fun", so you got rid of it.

I pity you because you cannot smell your own bullshit. Once again I say if you are saving youself for religous reasons than go ahead. You insist on spewing out half baked facts when really you have never bothered to educate yourself on the topic.

Ah, damn you The Black Forrest you beat me and made pretty much the same points. Not only that but you were nice about it :eek:

Where's the "never" option? You forget about us anti-sexuals/celibates.

Ah, damn you The Black Forrest you beat me and made pretty much the same points. Not only that but you were nice about it :eek:

That's ok. I liked your response as well.

He will ignore it of course!

Cheers! :)

There is always an error percentage. Just with abstinance. People fail all the time. That big pledge they had a few years ago, most that signed it failed.

They failed because they lacked the will.


Hey if it works for you. So be it.


Eh, haven't let me down yet.



Being judgemental is just as bad as being a whore.

Again there are not guarantees to the result.


Actually, all sins are equal in the eyes of God. Like I said having sex with random people is like playing Russian Roulette. If she was able to sleep with 15 guys and not get a bullet, then she's either really really lucky, or someone up there loves her.


And you base this one what? You are rather judgmental aren't you?

I left the Church due to it's moral hypocracy over the pedophile Priests.

I base this on several people whom I have talked to. One time my school did a sex seminar, and about 100 people showed up. About 25-30% of if said that they had sex to be rebellious against their parents, the church whatever.

Look, whatever you want to do with your body, it's your business, I'm not responsible for you, so *wipes hand* it's out of my hands. All I am saying is that sometimes, the reason for sex before marriage is a weak one. As those who ditched their religion because the religion was ruining their fun.

As for the church problem, I will agree that the Roman Catholic church does have it's problems, and that it does need to fix the pedophile problem pronto. I am actually waiting and praying for Pop Benedict XVI to do something about it. Personally I think they need to fire the phedophile priest, and the Bishops who tried to hide them.

Yep, I'm waiting til I'm married. Why? Cause I believe that that's the way God designed sex to be... ie inside marriage

Well cavemen didnt marry and god would have had to creat them too, so did they not have sex?

But they would have had sex for us to be here today.

Alright, nothing to do with marriage. cool.


Actually that what a marriage is basically. Which is why I am waiting until I am married.


Read a book. Combining multiple forms of birth control is very very close to 100%. If you can't handle the .02% you should probably cover yourself in bubble wrap and hide under your bed. We are intellegent beings, sorta, learn the facts and stop listening to the Church when it comes to science.


I can handle the .02%, and yes I do read "the books". So I guess two condoms work better than one huh? WRONG! Birth control works, but like I said you're still playing a game of Russian Roulette. Even if you do use birth control, theres still the STD chamber.


If it was all about religion than stop trying to bullshit other reasons. If you want old pedophiles to tell you where to put your cock that is your perrogative.


Actually my priests never talked about sex. We mainly stayed in the New Testament. I came to this conclusion not only by reading the Bible myself, but by thinking about it long and hard.


Ever heard of testing genius? Even for those STDs that take a little time to manifest to testing procedures don't take a few years. Once again I really wish you would read a book besides the Bible once in a while. Or at least keep your "facts" that come out of your ass to yourself. Oh yea and I'm pretty sure our pal Jesus doesn't appreciate judgemental assholes calling woman whores. He hung out with a prostitute.


Test are not 100% effective, they can still fail, and not all STD are detecitable right away. HIV/AIDs being one of them. They can hide in your system for a long time. In fact, they can hibernate in your system undetected until their switch has been thrown and they become active. So what am I suspose to call a girl that slept with 15 guys, Mary Poppins?


I pity you because you cannot smell your own bullshit. Once again I say if you are saving youself for religous reasons than go ahead. You insist on spewing out half baked facts when really you have never bothered to educate yourself on the topic.

I actually educated myself plenty on the topic, and I used books, and other material written by scienctist, not by aging hippies who still want free love to reign and the people who think having sex is cool because it's anti establishment.

That's ok. I liked your response as well.

He will ignore it of course!

Cheers! :)

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

I'm 21 years old, virgin. I am waiting for marriage/long lasting commited relationship. I believe that in order to have sex with a person, and for it to mean something, EVERY other aspect of the relationship must be established first. You got to have trust, faith, honesty etc etc.

How would you view the position that in order to truly have a lasting committed relationship with another person you must really know them ? Placing the sexpart on par with the trust, faith, honesty etc. as a condition for the relationship ?

I can handle the .02%, and yes I do read "the books". So I guess two condoms work better than one huh? WRONG! Birth control works, but like I said you're still playing a game of Russian Roulette. Even if you do use birth control, theres still the STD chamber.

Of course, the risk of getting killed in a car accident tomorrow is far greater - yet you still leave the home (I assume ;))

So what am I suspose to call a girl that slept with 15 guys, Mary Poppins?

A girl ?

They failed because they lacked the will.

Never mind the fact as whole abstinance is a panacea that has never really worked. Unless of course you are celibate.


I base this on several people whom I have talked to. One time my school did a sex seminar, and about 100 people showed up. About 25-30% of if said that they had sex to be rebellious against their parents, the church whatever.

Everybody has their own reasons. Many tend to simply like or love the person and what to take things to a different level.


Look, whatever you want to do with your body, it's your business, I'm not responsible for you, so *wipes hand* it's out of my hands.

:D Yep you are a Catholic.

All I am saying is that sometimes, the reason for sex before marriage is a weak one. As those who ditched their religion because the religion was ruining their fun.

Reasons for sex are a matter of opinion.

Ditched their Religion because it got in the way of their fun? :rolleyes: Yea that is it. Hedonism for all!


As for the church problem, I will agree that the Roman Catholic church does have it's problems, and that it does need to fix the pedophile problem pronto. I am actually waiting and praying for Pop Benedict XVI to do something about it. Personally I think they need to fire the phedophile priest, and the Bishops who tried to hide them.

I doubt he will. Admitting to fault will only increase the damages they will have to pay out.

They are doing it behind the scenes. I read they paid out over a billion so far. Not willingly of course.....

Yes, but before I am willing to sleep with someone, I must be able to trust them, I must be in a long term commited relationship with them, and I must know that they love me inside and out with all of their heart.

Wow.

Ive read a few of your posts, and have decided I dont much care for you.
Im sure your all broke up about that.

Moving on....



I am being smart about it, birth controls aren't 100% effective, only abscent is.



You will find that most of my decision regarding sex, or other aspect of my life does have some religion in it.


Is this why you dont have sex?

Or is it becuase you cant get a willing partner?
Im going to go out on a limb, and guess that youre a virgin.
Its painfully obvious you have, or pretend to have a dismissive attitude towards un-married sex, but is this becuase of strong religious beliefs, bordering on the Puritanical, or becuase of a lack of experience with the subject?



Wow, what a whore. Also, just because she's fine now, doesn't mean she'll be fine later. STD can still show up in your body years down the road.

Indeed?

You must have missed that day in Holy Mother Church where they covered the "Judge Not, Lest Ye be Judged Yourself." thing, huh?

Some christian you are.







You pity me because I am Roman Catholic and that I try to live my life according to the word of God and Jesus? How is it that you pity me for simply trying to lead a trouble free life the best way I know how, and yet, I pity you because it seems like religion has gotten in the way of your "fun", so you got rid of it.

No, I pity you for condemning something in wich you dont understand, or have had quite a bit of trouble with, and are using your faith as an exscuse to judge others.

I actually educated myself plenty on the topic, and I used books, and other material written by scienctist, not by aging hippies who still want free love to reign and the people who think having sex is cool because it's anti establishment.
books on sex by scientists....? for example?

I really don't see any point in waiting until mariage.

I would not have sex without feelings, that I perfectly understand. But when two people have feelings with each other, what's wrong in them making love ? They give each other happiness, and share something wonderful. Why refuse that, delay it for years ? It's insane.
And even if you're not going to marry her/him in the future (who knows how feelings while evolve ?), if you love her/him and he/she loves you back, why not share this love ?

How would you view the position that in order to truly have a lasting committed relationship with another person you must really know them ? Placing the sexpart on par with the trust, faith, honesty etc. s a condition for the relationship ?

I do not see any problem with that position.



Of course, the risk of getting killed in a car accident tomorrow is far greater - yet you still leave the home (I assume ;))


Yea I do, but it's actually out of necissicity. Sex isn't nessicary if you're not worried about children.


A girl ?

I guess, but all I know is that I wouldn't touch her vagina with a 10 foot pole.

Test are not 100% effective, they can still fail, and not all STD are detecitable right away. HIV/AIDs being one of them. They can hide in your system for a long time.


Actually AIDs/HIV testing is pretty accurate these days.


So what am I suspose to call a girl that slept with 15 guys, Mary Poppins?

Why not simply pitty her? Could it be she had a self-esteem issue from the fact of being sexually molested as a child?


I actually educated myself plenty on the topic, and I used books, and other material written by scienctist, not by aging hippies who still want free love to reign and the people who think having sex is cool because it's anti establishment.

Hmm I bet they were theolgians right? Of course they would be honest about their "research"

Anti-establishment? How old are you? Wait you did mention 21. Ahh well some people are born old I guess.

Never mind the fact as whole abstinance is a panacea that has never really worked. Unless of course you are celibate.

I dunno, I've been a virgin for 21 years, seem to be working fine for me. I mean all it takes is some wills and a backbone man.


Everybody has their own reasons. Many tend to simply like or love the person and what to take things to a different level.


And I have no problem with the fact that they do truely love the person, that they want to give the gift of their body to that person.


:D Yep you are a Catholic.


duh?


Reasons for sex are a matter of opinion.

Ditched their Religion because it got in the way of their fun? :rolleyes: Yea that is it. Hedonism for all!


Well now comon, you got to admit it's not the brightest reason.



I doubt he will. Admitting to fault will only increase the damages they will have to pay out.

Actually I think admitting that their is a problem would help. Just look what it did for Bill Clinton.



They are doing it behind the scenes. I read they paid out over a billion so far. Not willingly of course.....

At least they are doing it, and who actually do pay out money willingly?

Wow.

Ive read a few of your posts, and have decided I dont much care for you.
Im sure your all broke up about that.

Moving on....


Eh, I forgive you.


Is this why you dont have sex?

Or is it becuase you cant get a willing partner?
Im going to go out on a limb, and guess that youre a virgin.
Its painfully obvious you have, or pretend to have a dismissive attitude towards un-married sex, but is this becuase of strong religious beliefs, bordering on the Puritanical, or becuase of a lack of experience with the subject?


I already explain why I don't have sex, and trust me I have a very willingly girlfriend right now, but she respects my position and admires it, and is willing to wait. Also, yes I am a virgin, thank you for pointing that out after I said it. Bravo. and it's because I have strong religious beliefs.


Indeed?

You must have missed that day in Holy Mother Church where they covered the "Judge Not, Lest Ye be Judged Yourself." thing, huh?

Some christian you are.


You do realize that even Jesus was "judgemental" I mean he did call Mary the woman with many husband. Also, I won't hold back from calling someone who they really are just because they don't like being called that. If a person is stupid, I'll call them stupid, if they are a jackass, then I will call them a jackass.



No, I pity you for condemning something in wich you dont understand, or have had quite a bit of trouble with, and are using your faith as an exscuse to judge others.

I do not use my faith to judge others, if I did, I would be waving a Bible and condeming you all to Hell, so far I have not done that.

I actually educated myself plenty on the topic, and I used books, and other material written by scienctist, not by aging hippies who still want free love to reign and the people who think having sex is cool because it's anti establishment.
again looking for some sort of source.....? what book, or what scientist?

I dunno, I've been a virgin for 21 years, seem to be working fine for me. I mean all it takes is some wills and a backbone man.

Correct me if Im wrong, and maybe Im confusing you with another poster, but werent you born with some sort of facial abnormality?
Please dont think Im trying to make fun of you, if Im correct, but I am trying to suggest that in your case maybe a backbone has nothing to do with it.

Is it possible you have a jaded opinion of sex, and those who are having it, becuase of this, and your frustration with it?

Actually AIDs/HIV testing is pretty accurate these days.

Still that room of error, and I have not had pleasent experiences with doctors in the past, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't put my entire faith in some test created by doctors.


Why not simply pitty her? Could it be she had a self-esteem issue from the fact of being sexually molested as a child?


Yes I do pity her, but like I said, I will call people for what they are and present themselves to be.


Hmm I bet they were theolgians right? Of course they would be honest about their "research"

Anti-establishment? How old are you? Wait you did mention 21. Ahh well some people are born old I guess.

Actually, they were atheist.

You do realize that even Jesus was "judgemental" I mean he did call Mary the woman with many husband. .

and the most beloved of all his disciples, and very probably his wife.
That doesnt sound too judgemental to me.
Or if it does, then it also sounds forgiving.

Correct me if Im wrong, and maybe Im confusing you with another poster, but werent you born with some sort of facial abnormality?
Please dont think Im trying to make fun of you, if Im correct, but I am trying to suggest that in your case maybe a backbone has nothing to do with it.

Is it possible you have a jaded opinion of sex, and those who are having it, becuase of this, and your frustration with it?

*big sigh* If you must know, yes I do have some sort of facial abnormality. I have Goldenhar Syndrome. and no, I don't think I have a jaded opinion for sex because I am jealous. Why can't some people just accept that there are still people out there waiting for marriage? No I am not fustrated with it, no I am not jealous, and no I'm not trying to stop anyone's good time just because I can't have it myself. As I have stated before I have a very willingly girlfriend, but she understands my beliefs, respects it, accepts it, admires it, and is willing to wait for me.

Can we please not bring that up again? That was almost a low blow.

Still that room of error, and I have not had pleasent experiences with doctors in the past, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't put my entire faith in some test created by doctors.


And yet you trust the "research" of some doctors?


Yes I do pity her, but like I said, I will call people for what they are and present themselves to be.

Ok. So would being called a judgemental asshole with a rather ignorant view of life be ok?


Actually, they were atheist.

Actually they are not. Where you getting your "history" of what a hippy was?

You realize there aren't anymore right?

and the most beloved of all his disciples, and very probably his wife.
That doesnt sound too judgemental to me.
Or if it does, then it also sounds forgiving.

I still say judgemental, I mean comon, the woman with many husband is pretty much calling her a whore.

Can we please not bring that up again? That was almost a low blow.

You mean like caling somebody's friend a whore without even knowing her and without her being present to defend herself?

And yet you trust the "research" of some doctors?

I didn't say I don't trust them entirely.


Ok. So would being called a judgemental asshole with a rather ignorant view of life be ok?


Eh, your choice. But I wonder, if I didn't mention my religion, or use that as one of my reason, and if I still call her a whore, would you still call me that?


Actually they are not. Where you getting your "history" of what a hippy was?

You realize there aren't anymore right?

History class. and yes I do know they're aren't hippies anymore, but they have evolved to another kind.

You mean like caling somebody's friend a whore without even knowing her and without her being present to defend herself?

Comon, she slept with 15 guys, what the hell do you want me to call her, Mary mother of God?

*big sigh* If you must know, yes I do have some sort of facial abnormality. I have Goldenhar Syndrome. and no, I don't think I have a jaded opinion for sex because I am jealous. Why can't some people just accept that there are still people out there waiting for marriage? No I am not fustrated with it, no I am not jealous, and no I'm not trying to stop anyone's good time just because I can't have it myself. As I have stated before I have a very willingly girlfriend, but she understands my beliefs, respects it, accepts it, admires it, and is willing to wait for me.

Can we please not bring that up again? That was almost a low blow.


Im sorry, I certainly did not mean to be a viscous asshole.

But, again, you do have to ask yourself, if the vitriol you have for those who do have casual sex, or perhaps even casual sex itself, may stem from more than just your obvious religious beliefs.

Eh, your choice. But I wonder, if I didn't mention my religion, or use that as one of my reason, and if I still call her a whore, would you still call me that?


Yes. Everybody has their faults so I try not to hold them against them. People are good to certain levels.

Besides it's ignorant to judge what you do not know.


History class. and yes I do know they're aren't hippies anymore, but they have evolved to another kind.

Yes. It's called old age. Some never changed. Some became conservative. Some became liberal....

History class is not exactly a good vechile to know what they are about.

Im sorry, I certainly did not mean to be a viscous asshole.

But, again, you do have to ask yourself, if the vitriol you have for those who do have casual sex, or perhaps even casual sex itself, may stem from more than just your obvious religious beliefs.

I did ask myself that on my yearly trip to the mountains, just myself. And I decided that even if I was born "normal" I would still be a virgin. Mainly because of my religious belief.

I can handle the .02%, and yes I do read "the books". So I guess two condoms work better than one huh? WRONG! Birth control works, but like I said you're still playing a game of Russian Roulette. Even if you do use birth control, theres still the STD chamber.

No. Birth control and a condom. I don't know anyone that's tried two condoms at once- in fact, I believe that's discouraged as improper use of the device.

Test are not 100% effective, they can still fail, and not all STD are detecitable right away. HIV/AIDs being one of them. They can hide in your system for a long time. In fact, they can hibernate in your system undetected until their switch has been thrown and they become active. So what am I suspose to call a girl that slept with 15 guys, Mary Poppins?

Which means you can still marry a girl whose STD you don't know about- and she can be a virgin too, because STD's- being bacterium and virii- can spread without sex.

They failed because they lacked the will.

Or because not everyone thinks in exactly the same way, and to expect otherwise would be foolish. Some things- like no murder (i.e. killing) and procreation (i.e. sex)- are fundamental tenets to human thinking, but after that, the discrepancies (i.e., when killing and sex are OK) are too huge to make a "one-size-fits-all" mentality.

Besides, as I said before, STD's can be transmitted by other means, such as kissing and bodily contact. Abstinence won't save you from those.

You do realize that even Jesus was "judgemental" I mean he did call Mary the woman with many husband. Also, I won't hold back from calling someone who they really are just because they don't like being called that. If a person is stupid, I'll call them stupid, if they are a jackass, then I will call them a jackass.

Jesus forgave- He didn't judge. He had dinner with Matthew and befriended Mary Magdeline because He wanted to forgive, not to judge. His whole message was one of repentance. He did cast away a few people- the Pharisees- but He did so when they were being too forceful and intolerant.

Comon, she slept with 15 guys, what the hell do you want me to call her, Mary mother of God?

A normal person?

Yes. Everybody has their faults so I try not to hold them against them. People are good to certain levels.

Besides it's ignorant to judge what you do not know.

I agree, mankind is designed to be falliable, the only thing that is infalliable is God and Jesus. and while the woman may have slept with 15 guys, She may be a really nice girl. I never said that she wasn't.



Yes. It's called old age. Some never changed. Some became conservative. Some became liberal....

History class is not exactly a good vechile to know what they are about.

Yea, but being surrounded with Vietnam Vets did give me a biased view of them, I will admit that.

I still say judgemental, I mean comon, the woman with many husband is pretty much calling her a whore.


You are aware that there is nothing to support the allegations that Mary was actually a prostitute, right?
In fact, that idea comes from Paul, who was a mysoginist woman-hater.

It was he who tied Mary Magdeliene with the other story of the whore who washed Jesus' feet.
In fact, if the Gnostic text of Mary is to be believed, Mary was the most beloved of all the disciples, and Jesus' wife, and very probably, intended to lead the church after Jesus' death.

However, it seems that Paul didnt much care for women to have such a representative role in the church, and ruined her image, so to speak.

No. Birth control and a condom. I don't know anyone that's tried two condoms at once- in fact, I believe that's discouraged as improper use of the device.


I was trying to prove (and failed) that you can use all of the birth control you want, but its still no gaurantee.


Which means you can still marry a girl whose STD you don't know about- and she can be a virgin too, because STD's- being bacterium and virii- can spread without sex.


All the more reason to be careful with your body.


Or because not everyone thinks in exactly the same way, and to expect otherwise would be foolish. Some things- like no murder (i.e. killing) and procreation (i.e. sex)- are fundamental tenets to human thinking, but after that, the discrepancies (i.e., when killing and sex are OK) are too huge to make a "one-size-fits-all" mentality.

Besides, as I said before, STD's can be transmitted by other means, such as kissing and bodily contact. Abstinence won't save you from those.

You're right about the one size fit all glove, but you got to admit it has gotten out of control, with the casual sex, orgies etc.


Jesus forgave- He didn't judge. He had dinner with Matthew and befriended Mary Magdeline because He wanted to forgive, not to judge. His whole message was one of repentance. He did cast away a few people- the Pharisees- but He did so when they were being too forceful and intolerant.

And I agree with forgiveness, and I agree and try to follow the word of God and Jesus. However as I stated, I am only human and fallibale. I guess when I called someone a whore (without knowing her) I fell, and if I umm pissed off anyone with that comment I am sorry.

Comon, she slept with 15 guys, what the hell do you want me to call her, Mary mother of God?
No. Mary Magdalene.

You are aware that there is nothing to support the allegations that Mary was actually a prostitute, right?
In fact, that idea comes from Paul, who was a mysoginist woman-hater.

It was he who tied Mary Magdeliene with the other story of the whore who washed Jesus' feet.
In fact, if the Gnostic text of Mary is to be believed, Mary was the most beloved of all the disciples, and Jesus' wife, and very probably, intended to lead the church after Jesus' death.

However, it seems that Paul didnt much care for women to have such a representative role in the church, and ruined her image, so to speak.

Yea I've heard about that, but what do you think the "many husband" actually ment? I mean wouldn't divorces be uncommon back then?

I did ask myself that on my yearly trip to the mountains, just myself. And I decided that even if I was born "normal" I would still be a virgin. Mainly because of my religious belief.


Thats pretty easy to garner in hindsight, wouldnt you agree?

I can tell myself that if I won the lottery, it wouldnt change me as a person, but we'll never actually know, unless I win, wont we?

No. Mary Magdalene.

Ok. :) See. I'm not so unreasonable that I won't admit to a miskate and change it.

Yea I've heard about that, but what do you think the "many husband" actually ment? I mean wouldn't divorces be uncommon back then?


How are we to assume that the quote wasnt intentionally misquoted?

Thats pretty easy to garner in hindsight, wouldnt you agree?

I can tell myself that if I won the lottery, it wouldnt change me as a person, but we'll never actually know, unless I win, wont we?

Yes I do agree, and I guess if I was born diffrent I would be a diffrent person, but I still maintain that I'm not just a bitter person who jealous because he can't get any.

How are we to assume that the quote wasnt intentionally misquoted?

You just gotta have faith that it wasn't.

I was trying to prove (and failed) that you can use all of the birth control you want, but its still no gaurantee.

There's only one way to ensure you don't get any problems in life- don't go outside of your room. Don't even move a muscle, because you risk breaking something. If you really want to prevent the dangers of sex, don't have sex. Ever. Because STD's can come even without sex.

All the more reason to be careful with your body.

That's why everyone should know what they're doing to protect themselves from doing something bad to their body.

You're right about the one size fit all glove, but you got to admit it has gotten out of control, with the casual sex, orgies etc.

I see no problem with it. They just really like sex. It'd be like if I really enjoyed opening a door- doesn't hurt anyone so I'm not against it. I just hope they know what they're doing (i.e., they're "protected" and know how to use it properly) and that it's all consensual. That's just me though.

And I agree with forgiveness, and I agree and try to follow the word of God and Jesus. However as I stated, I am only human and fallibale. I guess when I called someone a whore (without knowing her) I fell, and if I umm pissed off anyone with that comment I am sorry.

It's okay. I'm just saying that Jesus sought to save, not to expel, which is a very good model to go by.

You just gotta have faith that it wasn't.

You seem to place your faith in humans over God although it is clearly unintentional. The written record of Jesus was created by humans as was the Bible itself. It is very important to keep this in mind. Even if the Bible was written perfectly without human bias it has been translated many times.

Yes I do agree, and I guess if I was born diffrent I would be a diffrent person, but I still maintain that I'm not just a bitter person who jealous because he can't get any.


I wouldnt sum that up as the whole of your being, but I wouldnt completely overlook the possible influence, either.

You just gotta have faith that it wasn't.

No No No......this isnt a question of faith, this is a question of authenticity.
If theres nothing to suggest mary was actually a whore, besides the writings of a known woman-hater, who very probably had some serious issues with the opposite sex, then its not a matter of faith.

A matter of faith would be if asked you to question your religion...at the moment...im not.
Im asking you why you believe the words of a guy like that?

How can we be certain that Jesus wasnt misquoted, when referring to Mary?
How do we know that Paul didnt just add that little bit in later to further discredit a woman who he may have felt a threat to his control over the fledgling church?

This is probably not the thread for this discussion, and if you want to continue this...we can.
BUT....again..its not your faith im questioning, its your reason.

There's only one way to ensure you don't get any problems in life- don't go outside of your room. Don't even move a muscle, because you risk breaking something. If you really want to prevent the dangers of sex, don't have sex. Ever. Because STD's can come even without sex.

Well life would suck if it was that boring.


That's why everyone should know what they're doing to protect themselves from doing something bad to their body.


Yea but what about the teenagers who don't know what they are doing and are having sex because they were pressured into it?


I see no problem with it. They just really like sex. It'd be like if I really enjoyed opening a door- doesn't hurt anyone so I'm not against it. I just hope they know what they're doing (i.e., they're "protected" and know how to use it properly) and that it's all consensual. That's just me though.


Eh I grew up in a conservative (sexually) enviorment. What can I say, I just think casual sex is just dangerous and irresponsible, but that's just me though.


It's okay. I'm just saying that Jesus sought to save, not to expel, which is a very good model to go by.

Ahh, but sometimes people don't want to be saved.

You seem to place your faith in humans over God although it is clearly unintentional. The written record of Jesus was created by humans as was the Bible itself. It is very important to keep this in mind. Even if the Bible was written perfectly without human bias it has been translated many times.

Yes, and sometimes things get mis-translated, this is true. But the core message is still there, and it's still true to the core message.

I wouldnt sum that up as the whole of your being, but I wouldnt completely overlook the possible influence, either.


Well, let's just say it has a very small influence.


No No No......this isnt a question of faith, this is a question of authenticity.
If theres nothing to suggest mary was actually a whore, besides the writings of a known woman-hater, who very probably had some serious issues with the opposite sex, then its not a matter of faith.

Do we even know that Paul was a woman-hater? I mean if he was a woman hater then why include her at all? Why did he include Jesus saving her and having her become a disciple?

How can we be certain that Jesus wasnt misquoted, when referring to Mary?
How do we know that Paul didnt just add that little bit in later to further discredit a woman who he may have felt a threat to his control over the fledgling church?

Read above, Mary was included in all parts of the Bible, if the man was a woman-hater, don't you think her role in Jesus life would've been toned down by alot?

Well life would suck if it was that boring.

That's what I'm saying- you really can't be 100% sure of anything. So live a little (however way you want it).

Yea but what about the teenagers who don't know what they are doing and are having sex because they were pressured into it?

Tell them they don't *need* to have sex to fit in and that it should "feel right" by whatever standards they think.

Eh I grew up in a conservative (sexually) enviorment. What can I say, I just think casual sex is just dangerous and irresponsible, but that's just me though.

I just say "agree to disagree". We're not all going to think alike, are we? (Besides, how boring would that be? ;))

Ahh, but sometimes people don't want to be saved.

Perhapse I should have used the word "include" instead of "save", but the point's still the same- Jesus wanted people to feel wanted by something and not to feel "rejected".

Well, let's just say it has a very small influence.

So you admit that IS an influence.
The degree to wich, only you know.



Do we even know that Paul was a woman-hater? I mean if he was a woman hater then why include her at all? Why did he include Jesus saving her and having her become a disciple?

Do some research on the guy.
Seriously.
He had issues.



Read above, Mary was included in all parts of the Bible, if the man was a woman-hater, don't you think her role in Jesus life would've been toned down by alot?

Yes, she is included in the New Testament, and many other apochryphal texts.
As for her role...

It most certainly WAS toned down alot.

Not many christians are willing to admit that Mary was probably Jesus' wife, are they?

Not many call her "The Wife of God", do they?

The Gospel of Mary refers to her as "The most Beloved of all women", in the eyes of Jesus.

That's what I'm saying- you really can't be 100% sure of anything. So live a little (however way you want it).

Trust me I do live alittle, I think flying a 3,000 feet with what is basically a car with propeller in the front is living lol.


Tell them they don't *need* to have sex to fit in and that it should "feel right" by whatever standards they think.


I agree


I just say "agree to disagree". We're not all going to think alike, are we? (Besides, how boring would that be? ;))


Very boring lol.


Perhapse I should have used the word "include" instead of "save", but the point's still the same- Jesus wanted people to feel wanted by something and not to feel "rejected".

and I believe that he achieved that, but mankind has screwed it up by saying "God hates Fags etc. etc." which I am against. Jesus never preached hate, he preached love, forgivness, and peace. I'm trying to do the same in everyday life. I may fail sometimes, but the heart is there.

Do we even know that Paul was a woman-hater? I mean if he was a woman hater then why include her at all? Why did he include Jesus saving her and having her become a disciple?


I don't really know if he was or was not but he was not the only influence on the history of Jesus. Pagan religions used priestesses (it is believed sexual acts were included in ritual and so only woman could perform certain holy ceremonies, giving them power) and so the male-dominated Church needed to lower women as a whole in order to keep them out of their affairs. Jesus saving Mary shows the caring and forgiveness of Jesus while still managing to make the sexuality of woman dirty and sinful. Also you can't just remove a symbol; it is much easier to instead pervert it to your own ends.


Read above, Mary was included in all parts of the Bible, if the man was a woman-hater, don't you think her role in Jesus life would've been toned down by alot?

As I said her role in his life can't jsut be removed without protest. It can be perverted overtime to serve human ends.

So you admit that IS an influence.
The degree to wich, only you know.


All I'm saying is that it MAY have been an influence, but I am not sure because well I don't know what the other side of the coin is like.


Do some research on the guy.
Seriously.
He had issues.


Will do, any recommended reading?

Yes, she is included in the New Testament, and many other apochryphal texts.
As for her role...

It most certainly WAS toned down alot.

Not many christians are willing to admit that Mary was probably Jesus' wife, are they?

We're not willing to admit because we do not know for sure that Mary was his wife. Beside we do not see any reason for him to have a wife when he very well know that he's going to be killed and raised soon. I mean it would be pointless to get married, only to be killed (and rise) soon after.


Not many call her "The Wife of God", do they?


Once again, we do not have proof that they were ever married.

The Gospel of Mary refers to her as "The most Beloved of all women", in the eyes of Jesus.

Show me this "Gospel of Mary".

I don't really know if he was or was not but he was not the only influence on the history of Jesus. Pagan religions used priestesses (it is believed sexual acts were included in ritual and so only woman could perform certain holy ceremonies, giving them power) and so the male-dominated Church needed to lower women as a whole in order to keep them out of their affairs. Jesus saving Mary shows the caring and forgiveness of Jesus while still managing to make the sexuality of woman dirty and sinful. Also you can't just remove a symbol; it is much easier to instead pervert it to your own ends.[quote]

And there lies the problem. We don't really know what Paul was like, we don't know if Mary was this that, etc. etc. We're going to be speculating until the end of times. While I enjoy reading about Jesus's life, I do keep in mind that there may be a biased view, but I also keep in mind that Jesus did teach about love, forgiveness, inclusion, and peace. That is the core message, that is what important about The New Testament and The Bible.


[quote]As I said her role in his life can't jsut be removed without protest. It can be perverted overtime to serve human ends.

True.

Trust me I do live alittle, I think flying a $3,000 with what is basically a car with propeller in the front is living lol.

Good to see that youthful vigour isn't being wasted :p We all need to do something stupid before we're 30. :D

and I believe that he achieved that, but mankind has screwed it up by saying "God hates Fags etc. etc." which I am against. Jesus never preached hate, he preached love, forgivness, and peace. I'm trying to do the same in everyday life. I may fail sometimes, but the heart is there.

I admire you for not getting so defensive. I've had bad experiences with overtly defensive Christians (one just today actually) and it's a relief to meet a tolerant one (I know that a lot of them exist...I'm just saying that my experiences earlier today made me relieved to meet you).

Good to see that youthful vigour isn't being wasted :p We all need to do something stupid before we're 30. :D

I plan on doing this stupid thing until the FAA tells me I can't do it anymore lol.



I admire you for not getting so defensive. I've had bad experiences with overtly defensive Christians (one just today actually) and it's a relief to meet a tolerant one (I know that a lot of them exist...I'm just saying that my experiences earlier today made me relieved to meet you).

Eh, what can I say, I can be a pretty mellow guy.

[Edit:] Sorry, the question I asked had already been answered.

All I'm saying is that it MAY have been an influence, but I am not sure because well I don't know what the other side of the coin is like.

As long as you keep in mind that it may have been an influence on the way you think, Im happy.






We're not willing to admit because we do not know for sure that Mary was his wife. Beside we do not see any reason for him to have a wife when he very well know that he's going to be killed and raised soon. I mean it would be pointless to get married, only to be killed (and rise) soon after.

Keeep in mind who Jesus was.
A teacher, and a Rabbi.
His first function was as an example to his followers.
The first lesson he would have shown them, was to have a wife, maybe even children, to set the example on jewish society, and the importance of the family structure.
It only makes sense that he marry.




Once again, we do not have proof that they were ever married.



Show me this "Gospel of Mary".

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gospelmary.html


This site puts the origin at around 120 C.E, wich may be a few decades after Mark, Matthew, since the actual dates are unknown.'
It seems most scholars believe 60-200 years after Jesus death.

If everybody waited 'till marriage, the world would be a much better place.

No, we'd just have much stronger hands and wrists. :D

Show me this "Gospel of Mary".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mary_Magdalene

That's the Wikipedia page for it.

No, we'd just have much stronger hands and wrists. :D

and we would make better arm wrestlers!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mary_Magdalene

That's the Wikipedia page for it.

Cool, I bookmarked it and will read it when I wake up.

to late

Cool, I bookmarked it and will read it when I wake up.


Also, check out "The Gospel of Thomas.", another Gnostic text.

In it, are 114 sayings of Jesus.

No miracles are mentioned.

Jesus is never referred to as "saviour", or "messiah", only "Rabbi".

No mention of crucifction is made.

Interestingly enough, it some scholars think it may have even preceeded the "canonical" texts.

and we would make better arm wrestlers!

I don't care about arm-wrestling. I do care about sex (preferably involving acts that I wouldn't want to have to explain to my mother). ;)

I don't care about arm-wrestling. I do care about sex (preferably involving acts that I wouldn't want to have to explain to my mother). ;)

Doubt you'd have to she did manage to pop you out. :p

Too late. I, like many others I'm sure, would fear a lifetime of sexual incompatibility if I waited until marriage. Not that a relationship is based on sex, of course, but it is an issue that can cause problems. Indeed, poor sex can often be indicative of deeper problems within a relationship. Personally speaking, I would certainly rather have sex with someone I genuinely cared about rather than someone random (which has been the case for me), but I don't need a marriage contract to validate my feelings for my partner.

Heh i am just waiting.

I think sex is evil because it might lead to more people.
Too late. I, like many others I'm sure, would fear a lifetime of sexual incompatibility if I waited until marriage. I'm typing this out on a Mac, and I can tell you that compatibility problems aren't that bad. :D

I oppose marriage, so it's either sex without marriage or not at all.

waiting till marrage....


We waited, and we are both very glad we did, for three years, then we got wedded. Sex just keeps getting better, even three years after marriage. More importantly, our respect for each other keeps growing, even as the intimacy grows.

Personally, I feel that waiting tends to increase the confidence within the relationship, both before and after marriage. My two cents......

We both agreed to wait because we both felt that it was what God wanted us to do.

On my 16th birthday I got a purity ring when I decided that I was going to wait till i got married to have sex.
I was just wondering how many NSr's are going to wait untill marrage to have sex.
EDIT: if its not to bold to ask, but will you guys, if you feel comfortable, say why you have made the choice that you have/did?I want my Honeymoon to mean something special to her.

and I won't care if it's not her "first" time.

Lemmie put it this way - not if I can help it.

I have never seen a reasonable argument for waiting until marriage(and I was raised Catholic, so I've heard most of 'em). As such I conclude it is a morally neutral choice and completely up to individual preference. My preference would be to not wait.

Here is a quite simple, reasonable argument. If you only have one sexual partner in your life time (IE your marriage partner) then you cannot become jelous for other partners because you have way of judging whether sex is better or worse with someone else. Thus you are less likely to have an affair because you will not become jelous.

Also, check out "The Gospel of Thomas.", another Gnostic text.

In it, are 114 sayings of Jesus.

No miracles are mentioned.

Jesus is never referred to as "saviour", or "messiah", only "Rabbi".

No mention of crucifction is made.

Interestingly enough, it some scholars think it may have even preceeded the "canonical" texts.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/thomasgospel.html

Why Thomas's gospel is bunk

They're called 'condoms.'

Have they stoped STD's?

Have they stopped unwanted pregnancies?

Here is a quite simple, reasonable argument. If you only have one sexual partner in your life time (IE your marriage partner) then you cannot become jelous for other partners because you have way of judging whether sex is better or worse with someone else. Thus you are less likely to have an affair because you will not become jelous.

*lol

How old are you? Just out of curiosity?
People don't start affairs because they are jealous, they get jealous because others are having affairs.
Ok, some people might start an affair as a form of revenge, but most will do so simply because they are horny for somebody else, because they are curious what sex is like with somebody else, or simply because they feel that they're not getting enough out of sex in their marriage.
You don't need to know what good sex is to know what bad sex is.

On my 16th birthday I got a purity ring when I decided that I was going to wait till i got married to have sex.
I was just wondering how many NSr's are going to wait untill marrage to have sex.
EDIT: if its not to bold to ask, but will you guys, if you feel comfortable, say why you have made the choice that you have/did?
I would never even remotely consider becoming involved with a person who thinks they should "save" themselves for marriage. There are so many disturbing concepts wrapped up in that idea that it makes me want to cry.

Have they stoped STD's?

Have they stopped unwanted pregnancies?

Have they been used by all and everybody?
Has everybody been informed on what they protect against and how to use them?

I would never even remotely consider becoming involved with a person who thinks they should "save" themselves for marriage. There are so many disturbing concepts wrapped up in that idea that it makes me want to cry. A little overexaggeration, perhaps?

A little overexaggeration, perhaps?

Not really... to be completely honest, I feel the same way. It comes off as underinformed, overzealous and very naive. But then, that's just my view on it.

Not really... to be completely honest, I feel the same way. It comes off as underinformed, overzealous and very naive. But then, that's just my view on it. I can get the overzealous part, but how is it underinformed or, especially, naïve?

OK, I am not reading 11 pages of this thread so if this has been said - sorry. Couples should be REQUIRED to have sex before they are married. If you are not sexually compatable - the marriage will not last. What if you are on your honeymoon and you just found out your spouse has a 2 incher or a smelly cooter (see favorite word thread). What if your husband turn out to be a 2 pump chump or your wife has a cavernous vagina? Just a couple of the potential sexual surprises you may be exposed to if you wait until marriage and at that point it is much harder to do something about it.

I can get the overzealous part, but how is it underinformed or, especially, naïve?I dunno, wouldn't a person hopping from bed to bed, partner to partner be considered OverZealous, Underinformed and Naive (especially if they engage in unprotected sex.)

I consider it a test of self control. Why be like bunnies if you don't have to?

OK, I am not reading 11 pages of this thread so if this has been said - sorry. Couples should be REQUIRED to have sex before they are married. If you are not sexually compatable - the marriage will not last. What if you are on your honeymoon and you just found out your spouse has a 2 incher or a smelly cooter (see favorite word thread). What if your husband turn out to be a 2 pump chump or your wife has a cavernous vagina? Just a couple of the potential sexual surprises you may be exposed to if you wait until marriage and at that point it is much harder to do something about it. Of course, people who are going to get married should be honest with each other, don't you think?

I can get the overzealous part, but how is it underinformed or, especially, naïve?

Most of the explanations here for STDs are frighteningly underinformed, and most ideas about the development of relationships strike me as terribly naive indeed.
I'm keeping in mind that most of those people who posted on that are still most likely in their early teens and that in time, they will understand human relationships a bit better.

Most of the explanations here for STDs are frighteningly underinformed, and most ideas about the development of relationships strike me as terribly naive indeed. Sex =! relationship development.
I'm keeping in mind that most of those people who posted on that are still most likely in their early teens and that in time, they will understand human relationships a bit better. Not I (referring to the early teens part, not understanding human relationships).

Most of the explanations here for STDs are frighteningly underinformed, and most ideas about the development of relationships strike me as terribly naive indeed.
I'm keeping in mind that most of those people who posted on that are still most likely in their early teens and that in time, they will understand human relationships a bit better.
the chances for STD is still there with a condom. (1% chance, is still a chance) I've seen relationships last when the couple wait for Marrage before sex. I've also seen relationships end when the couple baise it on physical compatability. (this is more for Anybodybutbushia)

I would rather a solid relationship before partaking in a "Pre-Dawn horizontal Insertion" but That is my preference.

and I am way past my Teens, thankyouverymuch.

On my 16th birthday I got a purity ring when I decided that I was going to wait till i got married to have sex.
I was just wondering how many NSr's are going to wait untill marrage to have sex.
EDIT: if its not to bold to ask, but will you guys, if you feel comfortable, say why you have made the choice that you have/did?
Waiting until you're married has a huge positive impact on the relationship between a husband and wife. Experiencing sex for the very first time with the one with whom you're going to spend many years helps make the relationship much stronger. Unfortunately, not everyone is able to resist raging hormones. I couldn't.

Most of the explanations here for STDs are frighteningly underinformed, and most ideas about the development of relationships strike me as terribly naive indeed.
I'm keeping in mind that most of those people who posted on that are still most likely in their early teens and that in time, they will understand human relationships a bit better.

Wouldn't it be better to go through life being faithful to one partner, and learning more about what true love really means, and being considered a bit 'naive'. There is no reason to think that the ideals that many of these young people given to them by their parents or others or the Bible are false. That many people do not live by these ideals does not make them false. There are plenty of examples of people who live happily their whole lives being in love with one partner.

What makes you think you understand human relationships better than those that are younger than you anyway? (I don't meant to be personal or offensive, but your posts do paint you in a 'know it better than them' light.)

Now this "purity" crap is definitely the most braindead crap I ever heard :rolleyes:

That there are actually people retarded enough to follow the church's hat campaing on this is truly very sad! :(

The word of God, called the bible, orders belivers of God to wait.

Now this "purity" crap is definitely the most braindead crap I ever heard :rolleyes:

That there are actually people retarded enough to follow the church's hat campaing on this is truly very sad! :(there are people abstaining for more that just "the church told me so" exscuse.

that's like calling anyone who participates in pre-marital sex Whores and Sex fiends and we know that's not true either.

Edit: (seeing post above this one) and let's hear it for timing... :rolleyes:

Ok, some people might start an affair as a form of revenge, but most will do so simply because they are horny for somebody else, because they are curious what sex is like with somebody else, or simply because they feel that they're not getting enough out of sex in their marriage.
Or start an affair because their significant other cut them off for three years. Groan! :(

Or start an affair because their significant other cut them off for three years. Groan! :(
for some reason, Lorena Bobbit came to mind... :rolleyes:

Now this "purity" crap is definitely the most braindead crap I ever heard :rolleyes: Why?
That there are actually people retarded enough to follow the church's hat campaing on this is truly very sad! :( Mm, yes, because of course everyone does things for the exact same reason. :rolleyes:

What the hell is hat campaigning anyway? :confused:

Of course, people who are going to get married should be honest with each other, don't you think?

Honesty? It has to do with likes and dislikes also. If you get married and find out the your husband can only cum if he calls out his mom's name - you've just signed a lifetime contract with that dude. There is no reason to wait until marriage. There is reason to wait until you are mature enough to be responsible and make the right choices.

Heh. This thread makes the assumption that you are going to get married, which I'm not. It also makes the assumption that you're going to have sex, and the likelihood of my finding a willing partner are practically nil. I have no pity for the narrow-minded like the thread starter.

Heh. This thread makes the assumption that you are going to get married, which I'm not. It also makes the assumption that you're going to have sex, and the likelihood of my finding a willing partner are practically nil. I have no pity for the narrow-minded like the thread starter. Czardas, you're sounding positively bitter.

Heh. This thread makes the assumption that you are going to get married, which I'm not. It also makes the assumption that you're going to have sex, and the likelihood of my finding a willing partner are practically nil. I have no pity for the narrow-minded like the thread starter.dunno... there are some, for the right price, are willing. :D

dunno... there are some, for the right price, are willing. :D That's a very bad idea. My politics teacher told us a story about the time there was a sixth form trip to Amsterdam… several 17-year olds were, ahem, given services, and then the "woman" ripped off his wig and said in a deep voice "Thanks lads!"

for some reason, Lorena Bobbit came to mind... :rolleyes:
Now, JuNii, let me point out that "for three years" is a subordinate clause which modifies "cuts you off." Thus, one can draw only two conclusions:

1. The phrase "cuts you off" indicates something other than a physical act of actually cutting something with a knife.

2. Or ... it somehow took three years to perform the physical act of "cutting off" that something.

Not only would the second option be incredibly painful for three whole years, but it would indicate that that "something" was incredibly huge, or hard as tempered steel. Much as I would like to think that ... oh, never mind! :D

That's a very bad idea. My politics teacher told us a story about the time there was a sixth form trip to Amsterdam… several 17-year olds were, ahem, given services, and then the "woman" ripped off his wig and said in a deep voice "Thanks lads!"
LOL... but they did find someone 'Willing' unlike what Czardas said. :D

LOL... but they did find someone 'Willing' unlike what Czardas said. :D I agree with Czardas though - the thread starter assumed that everyone's going to marry!

Now, JuNii, let me point out that "for three years" is a subordinate clause which modifies "cuts you off." Thus, one can draw only two conclusions:

1. The phrase "cuts you off" indicates something other than a physical act of actually cutting something with a knife.

2. Or ... it somehow took three years to perform the physical act of "cutting off" that something.

Not only would the second option be incredibly painful for three whole years, but it would indicate that that "something" was incredibly huge, or hard as tempered steel. Much as I would like to think that ... oh, never mind! :D
or just plain Numb...
or it was 'lost' for three years...

now the sleep deprivation is starting to affect my mind. been up for 24 hours now... YIPPIEE!!!:D :D :D

I agree with Czardas though - the thread starter assumed that everyone's going to marry!true, won't argue with that.

or just plain Numb...
or it was 'lost' for three years...

now the sleep deprivation is starting to affect my mind. been up for 24 hours now... YIPPIEE!!!:D :D :D
"Lost?" :eek:

LOL! You trying for some sort of record or something???

I agree with Czardas though - the thread starter assumed that everyone's going to marry!
A perfectly valid assumption, since almost everyone eventually does. :p

"Lost?" :eek:

LOL! You trying for some sort of record or something???
fixing printers at work... the person doing it was... let's just say he was relieved of duty and left the whole thing FUBAR'd :)

Czardas, you're sounding positively bitter.
No shit?

LOL... but they did find someone 'Willing' unlike what Czardas said. :D
Well, most people do not seem to be attracted by sociopathic, sadistic misanthropes. By never leaving the house and living atop an isolated Himalayan mountain peak, growing my own food etc., the likelihood of finding hookers also dimishes somewhat....

Well, most people do not seem to be attracted by sociopathic, sadistic misanthropes. By never leaving the house and living atop an isolated Himalayan mountain peak, growing my own food etc., the likelihood of finding hookers also dimishes somewhat....

There must be sheep somewhere...

A perfectly valid assumption, since almost everyone eventually does. :p
Yay for generalizations. :rolleyes:

i honestly think that we need less absitence promotion, and more promotion of healthy sexual education.

because i know a lot of teens today (i sure was when it was told to me) are sick to death of the whole "wait til marriage" deal, and some are going to have sex regardless, and some aren't. it's a personal thing.

but if we were taught GOOD healthy sex education from an early age (i'm thinking junior high here, the time when kids start becoming sexually active, or at least thinking of becoming sexually active) then they'd know how to prevent getting an STI, or becoming pregnant, and they could make responsible choices on whether or not to have sex at all.

but hey, the church still has a lot of say where i come from, and i know an awful lot of kids who were 15 when they got pregnant. =/

personally, i didn't wait. i don't even know if i want to get married, and therefore wasn't going to deprive myself sexually until i figured that out. i did, however, wait until i was 18, and felt i could handle a mature sexual relationship and whatever may have developed from that. i'm glad i made the decision i did. because i've had 3 sexual partners now, have never gotten an STI, never got pregnant or even had a pregnancy scare, and had a lot of fun. sex never got in the way of the trust/honesty/integrity of my relationships. and it was always special, each time.

there's a lot to be said for education.

Lemmie put it this way - not if I can help it.

I have never seen a reasonable argument for waiting until marriage(and I was raised Catholic, so I've heard most of 'em). As such I conclude it is a morally neutral choice and completely up to individual preference. My preference would be to not wait.

The ". . . it[sex] is a morally neutral choice and completely up to individual preference." is very well put. If more so called adults would take this onboard perhaps more attention could be paid to more pressing issues.

In fact this statement applies to a great many social issues. Such as same sex partnerships and abortion just to name two.

What the hell is hat campaigning anyway? :confused:
*kicks keyboard*
Should've been "hate campaign", of course.
The church preaches hate towards other religions, towards minorities, towards gays and lesbians and even to normal heterosexual persons with exactly this "purity" crap, disallowing people to love each other :rolleyes:

A perfectly valid assumption, since almost everyone eventually does. :p No.
No shit? Why the bitterness? No one in their right mind'd have me, and I'm not bitter. :) <-- see? I'm smiling.
*kicks keyboard*
Should've been "hate campaign", of course.
The church preaches hate towards other religions, towards minorities, towards gays and lesbians and even to normal heterosexual persons with exactly this "purity" crap, disallowing people to love each other I don't know what Church you're thinking of… unless it's Phelps' lot, in which case I agree.

I don't know what Church you're thinking of… unless it's Phelps' lot, in which case I agree.agree with you on this point.

Why the bitterness? No one in their right mind'd have me, and I'm not bitter. :) <-- see? I'm smiling.
Actually, I was bitter because of the bias...

actualy iam not sure that i am going to get married..its not really something that is a big deal to me...and i dont think that emotionaly i could handle a sexual relationship. i just wanted to see what peoples opinions were

actualy iam not sure that i am going to get married..its not really something that is a big deal to me...and i dont think that emotionaly i could handle a sexual relationship. i just wanted to see what peoples opinions were Wow, NS has another emotionally unstable loner (not a criticism).

fixing printers at work... the person doing it was... let's just say he was relieved of duty and left the whole thing FUBAR'd :)
Ah! Well then, at least you have a somewhat valid excuse. Carry on. :)

No.
Yes.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/marriage.htm

Yay for generalizations. :rolleyes:
Yay for statistics!

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/marriage.htm

Yes.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/marriage.htm 8.4 per 1000? I know there must be some correct way to read that statistic, but I gave up maths for a reason.

Half of people regret getting married, and divorce, anyway.

Sure. I usually wait for her to get married.

Half of people regret getting married, and divorce, anyway.shouldn't that be, 100% of people divorced were once married.

see Marriage causes Divorce :D

shouldn't that be, 100% of people divorced were once married.

see Marriage causes Divorce :D And birth causes death!

Anyway, why is the sexual compatibility thing such a big deal?

I think if people had to wait to have sex till theyre married thered be alot less knocked up people and thus alot less marriges.

I think if people had to wait to have sex till theyre married thered be alot more marriges cause those horn dogs would want to get layyyd

And birth causes death!

Anyway, why is the sexual compatibility thing such a big deal?
seeing how the movie 40 Year Old Virgin is pretty close to being my biography... I'm definately the wrong person to ask.:D

Wow, NS has another emotionally unstable loner (not a criticism).
:p

I think if people had to wait to have sex till theyre married thered be alot less knocked up people and thus alot less marriges.

I think if people had to wait to have sex till theyre married thered be alot more marriges cause those horn dogs would want to get layyyd You forgot the whole religious-guilt thing.

Sex is dirrrrrrty...

But there are worse ways to pass the time :p

And birth causes death!

Anyway, why is the sexual compatibility thing such a big deal?
sexual incompatibility is like personality incompatibility. its really hard to have a good relationship if you dont get along in bed just like when you dont get along in the rest of your life.

I think if people had to wait to have sex till theyre married thered be alot less knocked up people and thus alot less marriges.

I think if people had to wait to have sex till theyre married thered be alot more marriges cause those horn dogs would want to get layyyd
Nah. It'd be the same thing. Except that instead of never married 20 year-olds with 2 kids, you'd have divorced 20 year-olds with 2 kids.

sexual incompatibility is like personality incompatibility. its really hard to have a good relationship if you dont get along in bed just like when you dont get along in the rest of your life. I have perfectly good relationships with people with whom I've never slept with.

First off, nowhere does the Bible say that sex in and of itself is dirty. Sex outside of marriage is deemed as not a good thing, yes, but nowhere does it say that it's dirty within the confines of marriage.

Oh, and I'm waiting. I've made it to 20 without having done it, so I might as well wait until marriage. That and the fact I believe in God. You can criticise me all you want on that last point - I believe because of what's in my heart - nothing else.

Heck, I'm going to have all sorts of other boundaries too. for example, I'm not goiing to date anyone until I'm a small group leader in my Church (we have 100's of such groups). And even then, I'm only ever going to go out with Christian women. Hard? you betcha! Worth it? Absolutely.

Sex is dirrrrrrty...
Unless done in the bath... then it's clean sex. :D

if you arent ready for sex and you know it, it would be silly to have sex no matter what your friends might suggest. everyone should wait until they are mature enough to handle an adult sexual relationship and have found someone to have that relationship with. (some people try to rush past their virginity by having sex with some random stranger *shudder*)

it seems that american teens are being taught that either you are a virgin or you are some kind of sexcrazed slut. its possible to be an adult, have sexual relationships without being married and yet not have sex with anyone and everyone who comes along. you can be in love and be ready for sex with that person without being ready to marry them. i recommend that you have sex well before your wedding night even if it is only ever with the man you are marrying.

at 16 you might not be ready for sex. you shouldnt be getting married for at least another 10 years. are you not going to DATE? are you not going to get involved and fall in love? its pretty hard to keep that kind of distance from everyone until you are ready to get married.

or are you one of those people who think that oral sex isnt SEX? that you can do anything and everything up to coitus and still be a virgin. that there are no emotional consequences from getting non-intercourse orgasms from your boyfriend. that there is no way to get pregnant or pick up an std if you dont "screw". that there is something incredibly inherently special in intercourse that will make it all magic on your wedding night. you are either being lied to or you are delusional. sex is sex.

First off, nowhere does the Bible say that sex in and of itself is dirty. Sex outside of marriage is deemed as not a good thing, yes, but nowhere does it say that it's dirty within the confines of marriage.
Not even. Adultery and rape are condemned but that's it. And adultery is having sex with a person married to someone else or while being married to someone else. Rape is when you force sex on someone. Apart from that, you're free to have as much fun as you want.

Heck, I'm going to have all sorts of other boundaries too. for example, I'm not goiing to date anyone until I'm a small group leader in my Church
Alright! You're gonna' wait til you have a good selection for the picking, eh? You horny dog :)

To each his own.

But, as for me, I'm waiting.

I can't afford to have any little bastards running around. Sex causes babies. Three of my five siblings are the result of relying on birth control.

Unless done in the bath... then it's clean sex. :D
Unless it is done by Christina Aguilera, then it is especially dirrrty.

i lost my vaginity a week befor my 16th birthday to a girl i am stil in a loveing relationship with now, and i would say, if you love the person, why wait

for example, I'm not goiing to date anyone until I'm a small group leader in my Church (we have 100's of such groups). Okay, that has to be the most arbitrary boundary I've ever heard of!

Okay, that has to be the most arbitrary boundary I've ever heard of!
I don't know, once he's the alpha male of the group he can have his choice of partner. All very primal but may work.

I don't know, once he's the alpha male of the group he can have his choice of partner. All very primal but may work. Didn't Solomon try something like that?

I waited, but then I got married, and stopped waiting. I recommend it, if for no other reason than even using a condom, I still got pregnant about a month after getting married. (How about it for being part of that .02%? Oh, and that is dependant on the proper use of a condom, and I don't know that most people use them properly.)

I'm a Christian, and my initial reaction to this question is always 'No way', but I have a few Christian friends who have had sex before marriage and think it's ok if you love someone.
We're taught in Christianity that all sin is the same-as in, lying is as bad as stealing etc...the 10 Commandments are all as important as each other, so having sex before marriage is forbidden. But we are also taught that sins are forgiven, so if we slip up, Jesus saves us, so the way I see it is that I should TRY not to have sex before I'm married, but if I do, I won't be condemned to Hell or anything.
I would like to be a virgin when I get married, but if I get into a serious relationship with someone that I want to spend the rest of my life with, who isn't a Christian, I'm not sure how fair it is to make them stick to my rules.

I live in England, and we haven't had so much of the abstinence stuff in the news etc. I'm not sure it would work-having sex after about 3 months is fairly normal. My teachers (I'm 17 1/2 yrs old) presume that the majority of us are sexually active with our partners, and the general feeling is that it is normal.

How would you know if you're ually compatible? I started dating a couple of guys that were real duds in the bedroom, and that would definitely cause me to divorce someone. Good is a requirement in a relationship for me.

I'm on the public library computer, and apparently it blanks out the word pertaining to this conversation. You know, the one starting with an "s" with an "e" in the middle and ending with an "x."

Not even. Adultery and rape are condemned but that's it. And adultery is having sex with a person married to someone else or while being married to someone else. Rape is when you force sex on someone. Apart from that, you're free to have as much fun as you want.


Alright! You're gonna' wait til you have a good selection for the picking, eh? You horny dog :)

Perhaps it isn't forbidden directly, but, I quote:

"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral." - Hebrews 13:4 NIV.

Putting this along with the fact that the sexual act "makes two into one flesh", and very much establishes a spritual bond, sex outside of marriage, at least from a Biblical perspective is a VERY BAD IDEA. It's not worth the trouble it causes.

Would you want to be remembering that other girl when you're in bed with your wife? I don't, and that's why I'm not doing it until I get married.

I would like to be a virgin when I get married, but if I get into a serious relationship with someone that I want to spend the rest of my life with, who isn't a Christian, I'm not sure how fair it is to make them stick to my rules.

It's not really fair to make them stick to your rules... but I wouldn't suggest getting into a serious relationship with someone who was so different from you in such a deep issue. Relationships like that, in my experience, have trouble because of it, unless one person is willing to give up their opinions and ideas for the other... which is not usually a good idea either. You don't want to change who you are just to be with someone else, and you don't want to be with someone weak enough to change who they are to make you happy. Whoever's doing the changing probably will decide eventually they want to be themselves again, and cause huge problems in the relationship by merely being truthful.

Perhaps it isn't forbidden directly, but, I quote:

"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral." - Hebrews 13:4 NIV.

Putting this along with the fact that the sexual act "makes two into one flesh", and very much establishes a spritual bond, sex outside of marriage, at least from a Biblical perspective is a VERY BAD IDEA. It's not worth the trouble it causes.

Would you want to be remembering that other girl when you're in bed with your wife? I don't, and that's why I'm not doing it until I get married.

Same here. And if I did sleep with some of the girls I knew, it would be something I would never forget even if I did move on to other relationships.

It's not really fair to make them stick to your rules... but I wouldn't suggest getting into a serious relationship with someone who was so different from you in such a deep issue. Relationships like that, in my experience, have trouble because of it, unless one person is willing to give up their opinions and ideas for the other... which is not usually a good idea either. You don't want to change who you are just to be with someone else, and you don't want to be with someone weak enough to change who they are to make you happy. Whoever's doing the changing probably will decide eventually they want to be themselves again, and cause huge problems in the relationship by merely being truthful.it should be talked about and agreed upon. while it may be unfair to have them stick to your rules, it's just as unfair to give up your beliefs and stance without any compromise.

Perhaps it isn't forbidden directly, but, I quote:

"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral." - Hebrews 13:4 NIV.
I think that's what I said: adultery is condemned, but not sex outside marriage. What does the bible mean by sexually immoral? It mentions sodomy, masturbation, and a couple of positions in which the woman is dominant, but no more.

The bible has stories of men knowing women without being married, even men going to prostitutes, or taking concubines, and god didn't condemn them for this.

Putting this along with the fact that the sexual act "makes two into one flesh", and very much establishes a spritual bond, sex outside of marriage, at least from a Biblical perspective is a VERY BAD IDEA. It's not worth the trouble it causes.
Now you're jumping all over the place. The truth is that honest, open, consensual, and protected sex between willing partners doesn't have to cause any problems. As pointed out, there shouldn't even be a religious problem.

Would you want to be remembering that other girl when you're in bed with your wife? I don't, and that's why I'm not doing it until I get married.
Don't you mean other girls? And frankly, I'd like to marry someone with a bit of experience because it would mean that from all those people she could have chosen she thought I was the best in all aspects.

Who knows, those others could have taught her interesting stuff.

Not even. Adultery and rape are condemned but that's it. And adultery is having sex with a person married to someone else or while being married to someone else. Rape is when you force sex on someone. Apart from that, you're free to have as much fun as you want.


Alright! You're gonna' wait til you have a good selection for the picking, eh? You horny dog :)

Perhaps it isn't forbidden directly, but, I quote:

"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral." - Hebrews 13:4 NIV.

I think that makes a fairly strong case for not having sex before marriage, along with the fact that, from the perspective of the Bible, sex makes two people "one flesh" (with one flesh here meaning connected in every way).

Further, the other party could be somebody else's future wife or husband, and you yourself also are in all likelihood somebody's future wife/husband. Given that God's perspective is eternal, I think from His view this is the same as adultery.

At any rate, would you want to be remembering that other girl when you're in bed with your wife? I don't, and that's why I'm not doing it until I get married.

Also, notice how many people remember the first time they had sex - I don't think that's coincidence, as I believe that first time is EXTREMELY significant.

And birth causes death!

Anyway, why is the sexual compatibility thing such a big deal?

Why? Oh man where does one begin?

Well I would have to say hook up with somebody that has issues with it and basically just lays there. Or somebody that is only intrested in getting their rocks off and stops. Or as Eut mentioned, somebody that cuts you off.

Then you can understand.....

I have perfectly good relationships with people with whom I've never slept with.

Friendships are far different then relationships with whom you have sex.....

Further, the other party could be somebody else's future wife or husband, and you yourself also are in all likelihood somebody's future wife/husband. Given that God's perspective is eternal, I think from His view this is the same as adultery.
That's ok. It's your interpretation of things and that's good. By the way, I have not been meaning that you should have sex before marriage, as sex should be a personal choice in all cases. Just pointing out that the bible doesn't explicitly prohibit it.

Also, notice how many people remember the first time they had sex - I don't think that's coincidence, as I believe that first time is EXTREMELY significant.
Of course it's important and significative. It's always preferable if that person is special, but that doesn't mean that that should be, or is, the one and only.

I think that's what I said: adultery is condemned, but not sex outside marriage. What does the bible mean by sexually immoral? It mentions sodomy, masturbation, and a couple of positions in which the woman is dominant, but no more.

WHAT??? I think I missed the part where it mentions a couple of positions in which the woman is dominant. I didn't realise the Bible mentioned positions at all. Can you give me a quote for those?

(Semi-relevant sidenote: When the Bible talks about women being "submissive" it's not talking about bdsm, you know. And when people say that the Bible teaches women should stay home and be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, they should just read Proverbs 31 and see what the Bible ACTUALLY has it's ideal woman doing... making and selling things (manufacturing and retail?) buying and selling fields (real estate?) growing and providing food (farming and chef?) planting a vineyard (winemaking?) and towards the end it says "Strength and dignity are her clothing". Does that sound like what YOU think of as "submissive" or "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen"? Does it sound to you like someone who can't ever be dominant in sex?)

I think that's what I said: adultery is condemned, but not sex outside marriage. What does the bible mean by sexually immoral? It mentions sodomy, masturbation, and a couple of positions in which the woman is dominant, but no more.
I don't believe it does, but just in case, do you have scriptural backing for that?

I don't believe it does, but just in case, do you have scriptural backing for that? The closest the Jewish scriptures come are mentioning that Lilith was exiled because she wanted to have power over Adam.

Sorry but this has become far too serious.
http://www.mosnews.com/files/11249/007.jpg