Star Trek vs. Star Wars...hahaha [Archive] - Page 2

Free Mercantile States

11-02-2006, 04:30

Besides, Vader has undergone sever wussification ever since his transformation from the whiniest little jedi the whiniest little cyborg (Nooooooooooooo, anyone?) in Ep. 3. Honestly, how I am I supposed to look at the once mighty black avatar of doom and not see Hayden "I'm the most powerful Jedi ever" Christiansan

He wasn't all bad - yes, the "NOOOO" was the most hideous blasphemy perpetrated ever, and his scenes with Padme were vomit-worthy, but there were spots where he hit it spot-on.

- After Mace Windu was killed, when he was anointed Lord Vader. Between him, Palpatine, and the use of the faint undercurrents of a deep, quiet, more sinister Imperial March....I really, seriously felt and believed there.

- The Jedi Temple amongst the Younglings. You really got a feel for how low he'd sunk.

- Mustafar. Killing the Separatist leaders, then out on the balcony, alone with his crimes, all isolation and hatred but with a single tear....perfect. Later, I got serious chills when he choked Padme.

- In the entire movie, I thought he did a good overall job of progressing Anakin's character. Between different parts, you could see a real difference in his personality as he was pulled deeper into the Dark Side. His easy- and confident-mannered deception and manipulation of Padme at the apartment, the various catalytic moments that changed his stances, the general shift in his behavior....it was pulled off very well, I thought.

So yes, there were definitely spots that were just sacrilege. But there were also spots where I could just feel the Dark Side. Overall, it was great.

Kerubia

11-02-2006, 04:31

Yes, and how come the Jedi and Sith are so good with them, then?

It's fiction, but of course that answer won't suffice to you.

They're good with them because they have, as you pointed out, the Force. The Lightsaber itself doesn't deflect the blaster bolts--the Force does. The Lightsaber isn't really that special other than it can cut things really well. The Jedi would kick ass even if they tried to Jackie Chan someone because they have that magical Force.

Since the Force could guide Luke's torpedo, I bet it could also guide blaster shots, too. The Jedi would truly be much more powerful if they could get past their stupid religion and use a ranged weapon. Of course, who's to say that, in this world of fiction, that the religion isn't true afterall?

Besides, Star Wars has the Force. Do I see Force Lightning or Choke in Star Trek?

No, but I'd take a handheld phaser over a Lightsaber anytime. Or better yet, a rifle that uses some form of bullet. Set that baby on three round burst and it would be impossible to angle that saber to reflect them all (if the saber doesn't simply cut them in half, which means the bullets would still go through). Full automatic would do the same trick, but use more bullets.

Zatarack

11-02-2006, 04:35

No, but I'd take a handheld phaser over a Lightsaber anytime. Or better yet, a rifle that uses some form of bullet. Set that baby on three round burst and it would be impossible to angle that saber to reflect them all (if the saber doesn't simply cut them in half, which means the bullets would still go through). Full automatic would do the same trick, but use more bullets.

What good would a phaser be against a lightsaber?

Minoriteeburg

11-02-2006, 04:37

What good would a phaser be against a lightsaber?

yeah all shots would be deflected no matter how many came at the jedi.

Jenrak

11-02-2006, 04:41

<snip>

Actually, let's assume other things - this is the future, or in the case of Star Wars, a long time in a superior civilization. In this time, it could be simply possible to just enhance yourself to block said weapon. It would be much more feasible, if you did not have such Force to block that you can react merely on instinct. As for phasers and energy related weapons, energy shields can do that quite well, and as for bullets, armour works pretty well as well.

Lightsabers, whether guided by the Force or not, are still potent weapons. Yes, they are energy weapons emanated by lasers condense so powerful that they become a seeming sword of energy, but the concentration of their energy allows them to cut through energy shields with ease, overwhelming shields.

I'd take a lightsaber anyday.

La Habana Cuba

11-02-2006, 06:36

Star Trek, hate all star wars movies, the so-called aliens in these movies.

Kerubia

11-02-2006, 07:29

What good would a phaser be against a lightsaber?

There's simply no evidence that a lightsaber can reflect phaser technology. Phasers are quite different from blasters. As far as we know, the phaser may disintegrate the lightsaber. Or maybe the lightsaber can reflect it. We simply don't know. The reason I choose the phaser, or any rifle in general, is because of its range.

Lightsabers, whether guided by the Force or not, are still potent weapons. Yes, they are energy weapons emanated by lasers condense so powerful that they become a seeming sword of energy, but the concentration of their energy allows them to cut through energy shields with ease, overwhelming shields.

You still have to get up close, making lightsabers inferior. Take the lightsaber technology and apply it to a blaster, for the love of god. Ranged weapons are superior to melee ones. Even the Star Wars universe knows this; Jedi/Sith are just blinded by their religion.

I'm not too concerned about Star Wars armor anyway. The Ewoks were able to use logs to smash walkers and arrows to kill the soldiers. I have little doubt our bullets wouldn't work on them. It seems Star Wars armor is made more for energy weapons, not bullets.

Perjam55

11-02-2006, 12:33

STARWARS:except episodes I and II

Andaras Prime

11-02-2006, 12:37

Where's the Stargate SG1 choice?

Jordaxia

11-02-2006, 16:05

There's simply no evidence that a lightsaber can reflect phaser technology. Phasers are quite different from blasters. As far as we know, the phaser may disintegrate the lightsaber. Or maybe the lightsaber can reflect it. We simply don't know. The reason I choose the phaser, or any rifle in general, is because of its range.

You still have to get up close, making lightsabers inferior. Take the lightsaber technology and apply it to a blaster, for the love of god. Ranged weapons are superior to melee ones. Even the Star Wars universe knows this; Jedi/Sith are just blinded by their religion.

I'm not too concerned about Star Wars armor anyway. The Ewoks were able to use logs to smash walkers and arrows to kill the soldiers. I have little doubt our bullets wouldn't work on them. It seems Star Wars armor is made more for energy weapons, not bullets.

Eh... both are energy weapons, so it's reasonable to assume the lightsabre would deflect both, not to mention the phaser is terribly designed, and there's so much canon evidence to show it can't hit shit. Secondly, you can't apply blaster technology to ranged weapons. Part of what makes them work is a rare crystal which focuses the beam, gives it the power. You can't give each "round" a crystal, which it'd take to fire it like a blaster, cause you'd run out of crystals.

Secondly, jedi aren't that important as warriors, even a huge jedi force was molested on geonosis. They're diplomats and generals. The lightsabre barely features. the precog, the ability to sense the mood of your soldiers and know where and when to push or retreat. That's how the jedi win wars.

Finally, there's very little evidence that the AT/ST was heavily armoured, or was anything more than an intimidation machine, or an AA device. You'll notice they're also deployed at Hoth, and at the end, are nowhere to be seen. Likely destroyed by the base defenses. Stormtrooper armour, also, is rather good. There's no evidence to suggest that the armour was ever breached or that the stormtroopers were actually killed. Then again, no evidence they survived, so that's not much of a point. Mainly, stormtrooper armour is an environment suit. it can survive limited exposure to vacuum, prevents near misses from blasters killing (watch ANH, you'll see a blaster bolt missing an officer, hitting the wall behind him, and him dying. A standard wall. not a high explosive wall, or trek-console.)

Not to mention, this doesn't prove trek superiority. Trek, with no ground forces beyond a guy with a rifle. Trek, whos phasers MISS at 700 metres, whilst an imperial gunner hits at ranges of 200,000km, and the venator (the ISD carrier you see in episode three) is rated at seven light minutes. Trek, whose silly starship design (hit the pylons) and inefficient transporters, and basic inflexibility would cos them most every war. Also, if you want to go through expanded universe canon, I believe there's a section where someone in stormtrooper armour is hit by a spear flung at bullet speed, which flings him across the room and renders him unconscious. There is no visible damage to the armour. Ewoks on endor, if you watch, always hit the rubber join-segments between the armour when attacking, but not the proper plate. Compare that to the skintight, useless fabric of a trek redshirt...

Kerubia

11-02-2006, 19:43

Not to mention, this doesn't prove trek superiority

We'll deal with this first--I'm not trying to say Trek technology is superior. So please, stop thinking that I am.

Eh... both are energy weapons, so it's reasonable to assume the lightsabre would deflect both

No, it is not. In fact, that they're both energy weapons is the only thing similar between the two. It is foolish to assume that the lightsabre can deflect every type of energy weapon.

There's no evidence to suggest that the armour was ever breached or that the stormtroopers were actually killed.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Special/Arrow1/RoTJ-arrow1-02.jpg

Here the back armor is pierced by an arrow.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Episodes/RoTJ/RoTJ-ewokkick-crack.jpg

Here a part of the shoulder armor is cracked from falling down.

Anti-Social Darwinism

11-02-2006, 19:50

Star Trek: Vulcans, Trip Tucker (yum), Q. Need I say more?

Jordaxia

11-02-2006, 20:18

We'll deal with this first--I'm not trying to say Trek technology is superior. So please, stop thinking that I am.

Righto then.(eliminates from my arguments.

No, it is not. In fact, that they're both energy weapons is the only thing similar between the two. It is foolish to assume that the lightsabre can deflect every type of energy weapon.

Indeed true, but it's been shown in certain fairly high canon sources that they can deflect beam weapons (Mace Windu eliminates a few Ocuptarra droids by deflecting their beam weapon in such a way.) this is not necessarily the same fundamentally as a phaser, but it has the coherent, single beam aspect.

img snip

Here the back armor is pierced by an arrow.

That looks as if it's piercing the rubberised segment of the armour at the back, not the actual plate.

image gone

Here a part of the shoulder armor is cracked from falling down.

aha... well played. Not got a comeback to that. Lemme try and think one up. Nope, none that don't break suspension of disbelief :P YET.

The Nuke Testgrounds

11-02-2006, 20:29

Star Trek.

One word: Borg. The greatest invention of the human mind. All that is left is to create them.

Russo-Soviets

11-02-2006, 20:36

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

I pick Star Wars

HC Eredivisie

11-02-2006, 20:43

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

I pick Star WarsThe ST TM isn't canon;)

Pompous world

11-02-2006, 20:49

meh, id pick...star wars, it hits something more primal in me. that said its followed a similar trajectory to star trek, in that its gone through a crap phase with redemption only at episode 3. Can say that enterprise was a sort of return to form, not by much.

Caer Rialis

11-02-2006, 21:01

Neither. I watch both thinking that in the far future, the Emperor's Great Crusade will eradicate most of those xenos breeds.

Pli Granda Hungario

11-02-2006, 21:16

Where's the Stargate SG1 choice?

I agree. Stargate SG1 is running into its tenth sesion, which is more then any Star Trek series made. I very much like TNG more then the other Star Trek series I've seen, which are: TNG, DS9, and Enterprise. I'd like to watch TOS, and Voyager.I've seen an episoide of New Voyages, a fan film that continues Capt. James T. Kirk's 5-year mission, and it was terrible. Unfortunatly, I only saw three Star Trek movies: The Wrath of Kahn, The Search for Spock, and First Contact. The first two are boreing to me, but 1st Contact, I enjoyed it.
Star Wars IV was the first Sci-Fi movie I had access to to watch it all the time. Star Wars has memorable villians and lovable good-guys. I'ld rather own the Originall Trilogy then the complete series of TNG. But SG1, something about it makes me want to watch it again, maybe its the plot, Aleins acting as gods. I wish that I have access to the other Star Trek Series, but, since I don't, this is the list of my fav. Sci-Fi, from most favirite, to lest.

1. Star Wars
2. SG1
3. Star Trek
4. All the War of the Worlds movies (4 were made) and the first session of
its TV series back in '89.
5. Twilight Zone.

I know the last 2 stray from the idea of this thred, but I just wanted to list them.

Minoriteeburg

11-02-2006, 21:24

I loved the Stargate movie and the first 2 seasons of SG1, but it kinda dragged after the 2nd season so i stopped watching.

Utracia

11-02-2006, 21:25

Star Trek, hate all star wars movies, the so-called aliens in these movies.

The "so-called" aliens in Star Wars are much more interesting in different evolutionary possibilities of different worlds. More realistic I'd say. Star Trek is just a bunch of human lookalikes with eyebrow crests and pointy ears.

Minoriteeburg

11-02-2006, 21:28

The "so-called" aliens in Star Wars are much more interesting in different evolutionary possibilities of different worlds. More realistic I'd say. Star Trek is just a bunch of human lookalikes with eyebrow crests and pointy ears.

LOL so true. Most of the aliens in star wars are so complex that they hav eto be made completely digital. Of course you have the guys with eyebrow crests and pointy ears in Star Wars as well, but those guys were cuts on teh budget. That's another thing i respect about star wars, Lucas may have f'ed up the new episodes, but could you imagine if he had the technology when making the first 3? Everyone would have crapped even more in their bellbottoms and flare pants in amazement.

The Nuke Testgrounds

11-02-2006, 22:22

SW vs. ST is an unequal comparison to say the least.

The human based society in SW is roughly 20.000 years old.
The human based society in ST is roughly 2.500 years old.

Yes, it is very strange that ST technology is slighty less powerful than SW technology, considering that SW only has a 17.500 year technological lead. Despite this disadvantage they have managed to master time travel in ST, where they don't even seem to have a clue this is possible in SW :rolleyes: .

And yes, lightsabers are very cool. Too bad most space battles are fought with ships, not with lightsabers.

They look really fancy though.

Kerubia

11-02-2006, 22:34

Indeed true, but it's been shown in certain fairly high canon sources that they can deflect beam weapons (Mace Windu eliminates a few Ocuptarra droids by deflecting their beam weapon in such a way.) this is not necessarily the same fundamentally as a phaser, but it has the coherent, single beam aspect.

Bah! Reflect this, Jedi nerd!

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Special/handweap/VOY1-cathexis-widehit-crop1.jpg

Utracia

11-02-2006, 22:47

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Special/handweap/VOY1-cathexis-widehit-crop1.jpg

Is that Tuvak?

Jordaxia

11-02-2006, 22:48

Bah! Reflect this, Jedi nerd!

Sniiiip!

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/DockingBay94.jpg

I don't notice any explosions with that phaser set to some unorthodox settings.... Besides, it should be noted, I don't like the jedi, I prefer the super battle droids :D Since the phaser has repeatedly shown it can't damage metal.... droids for the win.

To the other person, they've nowhere NEAR mastered time travel. if they've "mastered time travel" they'd use it to solve all their problems. Dominion Wars? No problem! Borg? yeah right.

Besides, when they change things in time travel, nobody seems to notice... shows the "many worlds" time travel theory, that when you go back in time, you create a parallel universe.

Also, look at the variance in destruction between the feds and the empire. One can summon up battlemoons in months, the other can't even destroy big asteroids without expending their entire proton torpedo banks... Even Jango Fetts slave 1 takes asteroids apart with casual ease. Not to mention the sheer disparity of shield generators. the bridge shields of the SSD only go down after about half an hour pounding by an entire fleet. ST shields go down in minutes.

Then there's the fact that an ISD base delta zero melts the crust of a planet. Could the enterprise even attempt that without some super wonderweapon?

The Nuke Testgrounds

11-02-2006, 23:08

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/DockingBay94.jpg

I don't notice any explosions with that phaser set to some unorthodox settings.... Besides, it should be noted, I don't like the jedi, I prefer the super battle droids :D Since the phaser has repeatedly shown it can't damage metal.... droids for the win.

To the other person, they've nowhere NEAR mastered time travel. if they've "mastered time travel" they'd use it to solve all their problems. Dominion Wars? No problem! Borg? yeah right.

Besides, when they change things in time travel, nobody seems to notice... shows the "many worlds" time travel theory, that when you go back in time, you create a parallel universe.

Also, look at the variance in destruction between the feds and the empire. One can summon up battlemoons in months, the other can't even destroy big asteroids without expending their entire proton torpedo banks... Even Jango Fetts slave 1 takes asteroids apart with casual ease. Not to mention the sheer disparity of shield generators. the bridge shields of the SSD only go down after about half an hour pounding by an entire fleet. ST shields go down in minutes.

Then there's the fact that an ISD base delta zero melts the crust of a planet. Could the enterprise even attempt that without some super wonderweapon?

The simple fact is that they can manipulate time in ST, while this feat hasn't been discovered in SW. And please don't ask how you can explain why they don't use the technology that way, it probably has to do with some very complex time paradox.

Also, who invented the scanners on the SSDs? That a SSD cannot spot a Millenium Falcon sitting on it's own hull, alas. But that the other 2 couldn't spot it, what the fuck is that about?

I suppose their windows were closed or somthing?

And despite all 20.000 years of technological development in the SW universe they haven't developed genetics or medical sciences nearly as far as they did in 2.500 years of ST.

In SW a severed arm is repaired with robotic recplacements. In ST this is done by genetics and nanobots. Talk about SW being archaïc.

HC Eredivisie

11-02-2006, 23:10

To the other person, they've nowhere NEAR mastered time travel. if they've "mastered time travel" they'd use it to solve all their problems. Dominion Wars? No problem! Borg? yeah right.Temporal Prime Directive

Also, look at the variance in destruction between the feds and the empire. One can summon up battlemoons in months, the other can't even destroy big asteroids without expending their entire proton torpedo banks... Voyager destroyed an asteriod with one torpedo (or do you mean Voyager has only one torpedo?) If you're refeering to the Ent-D trapped inside an asteriod, that one was never fully shown on screen so no one knows the exact size of it.

Not to mention the sheer disparity of shield generators. the bridge shields of the SSD only go down after about half an hour pounding by an entire fleet. ST shields go down in minutes.One could say that ST has much stronger weapons or that ST has much weaker weapons compared to their shield strenghts.

Then there's the fact that an ISD base delta zero melts the crust of a planet. Could the enterprise even attempt that without some super wonderweapon?Yes, General Order 47.

Pantygraigwen

11-02-2006, 23:29

Bodies Without Organs this in answer to your request in my last thread. :D

Star wars or Star trek? Which do you like better and why?

Star Wars is bad space-fantasy. It was never that good. Get over it.

Star Trek is occasionally diverting optimism.

Trek all the way.

Jordaxia

12-02-2006, 00:17

The simple fact is that they can manipulate time in ST, while this feat hasn't been discovered in SW. And please don't ask how you can explain why they don't use the technology that way, it probably has to do with some very complex time paradox.

And the trekkies haven't discovered the power of the turbolaser, which is a far more efficient weapon from what's been canonically established than a phaser. Not to mention a proton torpedo contains as its warhead, 1.5kg of antimatter. annihilating an equal amount of energy, that gives a maximum upper limit of 64 MEGAtons. Hardly frightning to a ship that can dish out 179 megatons with its light turbolaser batteries, and 22 gigatons with its heavy turbolasers PER SHOT. It has 120 light turbolasers and 12 heavy turbolasers. That's firepower, and that's the WEAK ISD. the ISD2, which is more common by the end of the galactic civil war, has 8 octuple heavy turbolaser batteries.

Also, who invented the scanners on the SSDs? That a SSD cannot spot a Millenium Falcon sitting on it's own hull, alas. But that the other 2 couldn't spot it, what the fuck is that about?

I suppose their windows were closed or somthing?

it was hiding on a blind spot of the SSDs sensors. The ship is 17km long. Not spotting a slight discrepancy on one surface of that vessel, when you're looking elsewhere, is forgivable.

And despite all 20.000 years of technological development in the SW universe they haven't developed genetics or medical sciences nearly as far as they did in 2.500 years of ST.

In SW a severed arm is repaired with robotic recplacements. In ST this is done by genetics and nanobots. Talk about SW being archaïc.

Yes, because Bacta, which heals all wounds barring amputations, is absolutely awful. Also, their prosthetic replacements are made far faster, and are just as proficient as an organic replacement, and can be disguised as real tissue perfectly. It's likely that simply nobody cared enough to progress it further. or maybe they did, and you don't see Luke or anakin getting that treatment for 2 reasons. Firstly, Luke was a member of the rebel alliance, which didn't have the best tech. He could have had to settle with the prosthetic. Anakin was a jedi, and so had no money at all. He couldn't afford a replacement hand if he tried. The vader aspect is simple. He was so badly screwed after the immolation that medicine would likely be ineffective.

temporal prime directive
Well then. Their temporal tampering is useless if they can't use it in wars where defeat is possible, such as the dominion wars. It's entirely possible the republic or empire simply didn't care about time travel.

Voyager destroyed an asteriod with one torpedo (or do you mean Voyager has only one torpedo?) If you're refeering to the Ent-D trapped inside an asteriod, that one was never fully shown on screen so no one knows the exact size of it.

You know, I honestly cannot find the precise location I took that claim from... you can assume that I admit defeat there or whatever. I don't mind.

One could say that ST has much stronger weapons or that S has much weaker weapons compared to their shield strenghts.

Well, I've already stated what the ISD can dish out per shot, so we can only surmise that the imperials have fantastic shields and weapons. ST phasers... lessee. They've been shown to dish out about 30,000 to 40,000 TW worth of power in a blast, compared to 750,000 TJ of an imperial light turbolaser, and 94 million TJ of an imperial heavy turbolaser! (the reason for the TJ TW variance in the description is due to the nature of the impact. A phasers impact lasts about 1 second, however, from what I remember.) It still shows that ST weapons are considerably weaker than an imperial equivalent.

General order 47

Can't say I've heard of it :p, well, actually, I have, I think. Wasn't that done with a federation fleet, not just the enterprise?

Rithman-Naar

12-02-2006, 00:37

The simple fact is that they can manipulate time in ST, while this feat hasn't been discovered in SW. And please don't ask how you can explain why they don't use the technology that way, it probably has to do with some very complex time paradox.

Yes, causing entire rifts of different dimensions and altered forms.

Also, who invented the scanners on the SSDs? That a SSD cannot spot a Millenium Falcon sitting on it's own hull, alas. But that the other 2 couldn't spot it, what the fuck is that about?

I suppose their windows were closed or somthing?

They cannot scan every single nook and cranny, allowing a cargo freighter as small as the Millenium Falcon to be easily hidden. It's similiar to a battleship being unable to detect a piece of metal stuck to it, yet it can detect submarines.

And despite all 20.000 years of technological development in the SW universe they haven't developed genetics or medical sciences nearly as far as they did in 2.500 years of ST.

That's very narrow. Many civilizations in Star Wars have already perfected this, although its strictly a cultural advancement, not a general technological application. Hence some things have better medical abilities than others in Star Wars.

In SW a severed arm is repaired with robotic recplacements. In ST this is done by genetics and nanobots. Talk about SW being archaïc.[/QUOTE]

Robotic replacements are cheaper to gain and maintain, instead of nanobots and genetics.

The Nuke Testgrounds

12-02-2006, 00:37

And the trekkies haven't discovered the power of the turbolaser, which is a far more efficient weapon from what's been canonically established than a phaser. Not to mention a proton torpedo contains as its warhead, 1.5kg of antimatter. annihilating an equal amount of energy, that gives a maximum upper limit of 64 MEGAtons. Hardly frightning to a ship that can dish out 179 megatons with its light turbolaser batteries, and 22 gigatons with its heavy turbolasers PER SHOT. It has 120 light turbolasers and 12 heavy turbolasers. That's firepower, and that's the WEAK ISD. the ISD2, which is more common by the end of the galactic civil war, has 8 octuple heavy turbolaser batteries.

Yes, if ST was allowed another 17.500 years of technological discoveries I'm sure they'd be able to construct similar - if not better - devices. Not that would want to, but you get the idea.

I'm also wondering how some of the biggest structures in both SW and ST manage to stay in one piece. Take the Death Star for example. It is said to have the size of a small moon. This would mean it probably generates it's own gravity. Pretty amazing it doesn't collapse in on itself.

it was hiding on a blind spot of the SSDs sensors. The ship is 17km long. Not spotting a slight discrepancy on one surface of that vessel, when you're looking elsewhere, is forgivable.

Actually, it is not. First of all the Empire mentality won't allow for such engineering flaw (I personally would've had the Main Engineer and the whole team of the SSD shot). Secondly, it strikes me odd that you would have the technology and materials to build a 17km long vessel, but forgot to build in proper and efficient scanners.

Yes, because Bacta, which heals all wounds barring amputations, is absolutely awful. Also, their prosthetic replacements are made far faster, and are just as proficient as an organic replacement, and can be disguised as real tissue perfectly. It's likely that simply nobody cared enough to progress it further.

Oh yeah. Of course. Why strive for improvement. Where on earth did I get such silly thoughts.

Besides I'd say nanobots are made quicker and have the neat feature that they can repair themselves in addition to the body. But hey, that's just me.

It's entirely possible the republic or empire simply didn't care about time travel.

That doesn't seem very likely. Especially the Empire wouldn't waste such a potentially powerful technology :rolleyes: .

The Nuke Testgrounds

12-02-2006, 00:44

Yes, causing entire rifts of different dimensions and altered forms.

I don't see where you're getting at :p .

They cannot scan every single nook and cranny, allowing a cargo freighter as small as the Millenium Falcon to be easily hidden. It's similiar to a battleship being unable to detect a piece of metal stuck to it, yet it can detect submarines.

And that's why those battleships can get blow up. Again, ineffective design. Either develop effective scanners or build smaller ships. But don't let yourself be tricked by something like the MF. That's just lame :rolleyes: .

That's very narrow. Many civilizations in Star Wars have already perfected this, although its strictly a cultural advancement, not a general technological application. Hence some things have better medical abilities than others in Star Wars.

True.

Robotic replacements are cheaper to gain and maintain, instead of nanobots and genetics.

Not true.

Straughn

12-02-2006, 00:48

Such a refit must be incredibly expensive as normal weapons couldn't possibly do this. Star Wars also has a much larger population in its galaxy and many more ships so the Star Trek could be swamped by sheer numbers. Besides now that I think about it, its hard to argue which would win as Star Wars and Star Trek run on entirely different ideas on physics. If a Trek ship went into SW universe or vice versa the newcomer probably wouldn't even function.
Well actually the very function of a warp-drive, under convoluted conditions, could do some significant damage, as i'd said. The idea of a stable Cubierre field is versus the idea of a propegative warp envelopment, since it won't stabilize - it takes other functions to do as such. It's kind of like the Trinity Project, in the fact that they set it off without having any concrete evidence that it WOULDN'T continue to propegate yield. Consider (from ST) the first motion picture, where a stable mass conversion couldn't be completed because in the accelerative/convertive phase of Cubierre stabilization, they proximized a foreign mass, and that convoluted into a wormhole scenario.
Imagine excess energy being forced into subspace without intent of stabilization - if nothing else you get destabilization. Now, if possible, a propegation that initiates a phase shift in zero-point energy (iffy, obviously, but ST uses it later) then you really have potential. To be fair, even the photon torpedos have a variant yield, even more so with quantum torpedos.
-
Well, all that aside, consider that SW doesn't even BOTHER explaining physics as script/plot devices. That pretty much clinches it.
As far as numbers, if you could get everyone to COOPERATE, SW universe would probably override ST. I can, happily, enjoy both without much conflict.
*nods*

Straughn

12-02-2006, 00:52

Yes, and how come the Jedi and Sith are so good with them, then?

Besides, Star Wars has the Force. Do I see Force Lightning or Choke in Star Trek?
Watch Kes.
*nods*
Or Q.
Or Trelane.
I'm sure there's a few more .....

Kerubia

12-02-2006, 06:32

Is that Tuvak?

It's either him or Sisko.

And the trekkies haven't discovered the power of the turbolaser, which is a far more efficient weapon from what's been canonically established than a phaser.

The problem is is that the ST tech manual isn't canon.

I don't recall any episodes or movies that explain it's power.

Theorb

12-02-2006, 07:30

We had a thread with this same title on the Star Wars Galaxies forums, it went over something like 300 pages, maybe it got to 400 before the mods moved it to general chat, then it got locked :(. Those were good times....

Moantha

12-02-2006, 08:03

I'm back, with some more Trek pluses that I missed.

Orion females. (How did I forget them???)

Tribbles.

Bat-leths (sp) That's right, the Klingons make a hand-to-hand weapon work, with no I repeat no force.

Borg. Can anyone else see an assimilated Death Star in their mind? That would just be awesome.

No Jar-Jar Binks.

Cardassians. Aliens with spoons on their foreheads!!!!

Holodeck.

Morn.

Vulcans.

That's all for now. I'll probably think of some more later.

Lt_Cody

12-02-2006, 08:18

I'm back, with some more Trek pluses that I missed.

Orion females. (How did I forget them???)
Twi'leks are hotter

Tribbles.
Only Trek would have something useless like Tribbles :D

Bat-leths (sp) That's right, the Klingons make a hand-to-hand weapon work, with no I repeat no force.
Ha. Bat'leths suck. They've got no reach, no penetrating power, and poor center of gravity. Any real weapon would kick its ass. And Klingons suck anyways, stupid Space Vikings drop their guns and go charging in to get gunned down? At least Jedi can deflect shots and stuff.

Borg. Can anyone else see an assimilated Death Star in their mind? That would just be awesome.
Please, Voyager's holographic doctor was smarter then the entire Collective. We all saw what happened the last time the Borg went up against an opponent with superior firepower, and they got their asses kicked.

No Jar-Jar Binks.
Jar Jar > Wesley & Neelix, like I said we only had to deal with Jar Jar for a movie and a half, you got those two for entire series.

Cardassians. Aliens with spoons on their foreheads!!!!
Yeah, how creative. SW has real aliens.

Holodeck.
Except for all those times it malfunctions....and when the holodeck actually took over the ship...yeah

Morn.
You've got one useless drunk, we have an entire cantina of 'em. ha :D

Vulcans.
Only have sex every 7 years. Imagine how much that sucks...

Moantha

12-02-2006, 08:31

Twi'leks are hotter

Head-tails don't do much for me.

Only Trek would have something useless like Tribbles :D Useless? Beam a couple aboard an enemy ship and within a few days they're helpless.

Ha. Bat'leths suck. They've got no reach, no penetrating power, and poor center of gravity. Any real weapon would kick its ass. And Klingons suck anyways, stupid Space Vikings drop their guns and go charging in to get gunned down? At least Jedi can deflect shots and stuff. They don't use the Bat'leths until they're already close to the enemy.

Please, Voyager's holographic doctor was smarter then the entire Collective. We all saw what happened the last time the Borg went up against an opponent with superior firepower, and they got their asses kicked.

Grr. Haven't seen all of Voyager. :( As for the superior firepower, I'm assuming you're talking about 8472, and we both know who came out on top of that one. Besides, the main problem the Borg were having with 8472 is that they were unassimilatable. Not so with the Imps, eh?

Jar Jar > Wesley & Neelix, like I said we only had to deal with Jar Jar for a movie and a half, you got those two for entire series.

Good point. But at least they didn't talk as horrendously as him. And Wesley did get impaled on a bayonet at one point. :D He just go tbetter.:(

Yeah, how creative. SW has real aliens.

Oh please. Because Star Trek doesn't have radically different aliens, including those who don't actually manifest a physical form.

Except for all those times it malfunctions....and when the holodeck actually took over the ship...yeah

Endless source of plots if the writers ever run dry. Coincidence, I think not.

You've got one useless drunk, we have an entire cantina of 'em. ha :D

Who show up for all of about ten minutes? Please. Besides, have you seen "Who Mourns for Morn?" Useless drunk, I think not. And finally, it's amazing how much they did with the character without him ever talking, and without him having much of any facial expressions.

Only have sex every 7 years. Imagine how much that sucks...

Ah, but once every seven years...

Argh. There should be an eyebrow waggley smiley.

Saint Jade

12-02-2006, 09:04

Star Wars is waaaaaaaaay better. R2D2 and the Ewoks were way cuter than anything Star Trek could come up with. And Star Wars was a subversion of a fairytale. Better.

Moantha

12-02-2006, 09:07

Star Wars is waaaaaaaaay better. R2D2 and the Ewoks were way cuter than anything Star Trek could come up with. And Star Wars was a subversion of a fairytale. Better.

*cough cough* (http://www.robmacdougall.org/images/tribbles-sepia.jpg)

Lt_Cody

12-02-2006, 09:08

Head-tails don't do much for me.
Your loss

Useless? Beam a couple aboard an enemy ship and within a few days they're helpless.
And while Trek is wasting its time trying to beam them aboard, the Star Destroyer blasts them out of the sky :)

They don't use the Bat'leths until they're already close to the enemy.
Still doesn't negate the fact it's a terrible weapon, and often that's all the Space Vikings actually carry into battle.

Grr. Haven't seen all of Voyager. :( As for the superior firepower, I'm assuming you're talking about 8472, and we both know who came out on top of that one. Besides, the main problem the Borg were having with 8472 is that they were unassimilatable. Not so with the Imps, eh?
The same, actually. You don't really think "assimilation" is some no-limits fallacy, do you? Imp tech is both radically different and advanced compared to Borg, it'd be like asking 1900's scientists to build an F-22. S8472 were able to one-shot kill cubes and blow up their planets, Imps can do the same except better and faster.

Good point. But at least they didn't talk as horrendously as him. And Wesley did get impaled on a bayonet at one point. :D He just go tbetter.:(
I can handle Jar Jar's terrible accent. Dealing with the Mary Sue that was Wesley is, well, there's a reason people don't like the kid...

Oh please. Because Star Trek doesn't have radically different aliens, including those who don't actually manifest a physical form.
Exactly. For its budget, Trek can afford to have more then the "Bumpy Forehead" Alien-of-the-Week

Endless source of plots if the writers ever run dry. Coincidence, I think not.
Yeah, because those are such engaging and original stories...:rolleyes: :D

Who show up for all of about ten minutes? Please. Besides, have you seen "Who Mourns for Morn?" Useless drunk, I think not. And finally, it's amazing how much they did with the character without him ever talking, and without him having much of any facial expressions.
They certainly had more variety and personality, and Morn was not that great a character.

Ah, but once every seven years...
That's over 2,555 days going without any. That's an awful long time.

Moantha

12-02-2006, 09:21

Your loss

And while Trek is wasting its time trying to beam them aboard, the Star Destroyer blasts them out of the sky :)

What if it's Romulans? (Egad! That's what I forgot! Cloaking devices!)

Still doesn't negate the fact it's a terrible weapon, and often that's all the Space Vikings actually carry into battle.

We must be talking about different Space Vikings. For ceremonial combat, yes, but that hardly qualifies.

The same, actually. You don't really think "assimilation" is some no-limits fallacy, do you? Imp tech is both radically different and advanced compared to Borg, it'd be like asking 1900's scientists to build an F-22. S8472 were able to one-shot kill cubes and blow up their planets, Imps can do the same except better and faster.

Nope. I call you on this. The reason the Borg couldn't assimilate the 8472 ships wasn't that they were too technologically advanced. It was that they were organic lifeforms, in and of themselves, and shared immunity with the non-ships. The Borg would eventually end up assimilating a Star Destroyer, and then have access to all of it's weaponry, shielding, acess codes, etc.

I can handle Jar Jar's terrible accent. Dealing with the Mary Sue that was Wesley is, well, there's a reason people don't like the kid...

True, true. But I point again to the fact that he did get impaled on a bayonet.

Exactly. For its budget, Trek can afford to have more then the "Bumpy Forehead" Alien-of-the-Week

I think there was actually an explanation somewhere along the line. Besides, the majority of Star Trek species from the movies were roughly humanoid bipedals.

Yeah, because those are such engaging and original stories...:rolleyes: :D

I don't know. I liked "Our Man Bashir" Which leads me to the other thing I forgot. Garak!

They certainly had more variety and personality, and Morn was not that great a character. Heathen! You shall burn! Yes, there was more variety among them than there is among Morn. Duh. But as for personality, I will have to agree to disagree.

That's over 2,555 days going without any. That's an awful long time.

Which is why most Vulcans marry Vulcans. Vulcans born about the same time as them, give or take seven years.

Bobs Own Pipe

12-02-2006, 09:43

Classic Star Trek. Mostly because of the psychokinetic aliens made of blue pipe-cleaners and bits of lint. Besides, those light-sabres are really lame.

The Nuke Testgrounds

12-02-2006, 15:04

Twi'leks are hotter

Orion females are hornier :rolleyes: .

Only Trek would have something useless like Tribbles :D

Useless, maybe. But so cute, fluffly, abundant, small, cuddly and......did I already mention cute?

Ha. Bat'leths suck. They've got no reach, no penetrating power, and poor center of gravity. Any real weapon would kick its ass. And Klingons suck anyways, stupid Space Vikings drop their guns and go charging in to get gunned down? At least Jedi can deflect shots and stuff.

Let's see if you still think this once you've got one stuck in your abdomen.

Please, Voyager's holographic doctor was smarter then the entire Collective. We all saw what happened the last time the Borg went up against an opponent with superior firepower, and they got their asses kicked.

At least ST has properly functioning holograms? The ones in ST can actually do stuff. In SW they're like overrated phone displays.

Jar Jar > Wesley & Neelix, like I said we only had to deal with Jar Jar for a movie and a half, you got those two for entire series.

Still the fact remains: Jar Jar is lame AND annoying, Wesley & Neelix are merely annoying.

Yeah, how creative. SW has real aliens.

Last time I checked SW still only had organic lifeforms. ST on the other side may have less original organic lifeforms, but at least ST has whisps and other non-organic metaphysical lifeforms.

Except for all those times it malfunctions....and when the holodeck actually took over the ship...yeah

Don't be jealous of the fact ST actually HAS a holodeck.

You've got one useless drunk, we have an entire cantina of 'em. ha :D

I don't consider drunk people an advantage :rolleyes: .

Only have sex every 7 years. Imagine how much that sucks...

I wouldn't mind living for over 300 years though.

Moantha

12-02-2006, 16:34

Orion females are hornier :rolleyes: .

Plus the whole pheromone thing.

Useless, maybe. But so cute, fluffly, abundant, small, cuddly and......did I already mention cute?

You only mentioned abundant once though. It should probably go cute, abundant, fluffly, abundant, small, abundant, cuddly, abundant and... did I already mention cute and abundant?

Plus they make great Klingon detectors.-

Oh and I also forgot to mention Spock, transwarp, and Boothby.

The Nuke Testgrounds

12-02-2006, 16:41

Oh and I also forgot to mention Spock, transwarp, and Boothby.

And teleportation.

HC Eredivisie

12-02-2006, 17:27

Come to think about it, while SW has the Death Star, ST has the Xindi weapon which has the same effect on planets but is actually smaller (well, I think it is smaller:confused: ).

Lt_Cody

12-02-2006, 20:03

What if it's Romulans? (Egad! That's what I forgot! Cloaking devices!)
Wars already has cloaking devices, and methods of detecting them

We must be talking about different Space Vikings. For ceremonial combat, yes, but that hardly qualifies.
If you want an example, watch Way of the Warrior. About a third of the time, the only weapon the Klingons beam on board the station with is a bat'leth.

Nope. I call you on this. The reason the Borg couldn't assimilate the 8472 ships wasn't that they were too technologically advanced. It was that they were organic lifeforms, in and of themselves, and shared immunity with the non-ships. The Borg would eventually end up assimilating a Star Destroyer, and then have access to all of it's weaponry, shielding, acess codes, etc.
Based on what? They couldn't assimilate S8472 because they didn't understand how their bio-tech worked. What makes you think they would understand how a Hyperdrive or Turbolaser works? Not to mention they'd never get a chance in the first place when a Wars ships blows them into particles after the first shot or two.

I think there was actually an explanation somewhere along the line. Besides, the majority of Star Trek species from the movies were roughly humanoid bipedals.
Yeah, some lame excuse in a TNG episode, still doesn't explain how that's the only life to evolve in the entire galaxy (besides changelings).

I don't know. I liked "Our Man Bashir" Which leads me to the other thing I forgot. Garak!
One of the few interesting characters

Lt_Cody

12-02-2006, 20:15

Useless, maybe. But so cute, fluffly, abundant, small, cuddly and......did I already mention cute?
You want cute, fluffy, small and abundant? Ewoks hunt down your silly Tribbles and cook them over an open fire :D

Let's see if you still think this once you've got one stuck in your abdomen.
Unless I use a real weapon, like a sword or spear, or hell just shoot him, not like he can block my shots with his bat'leth

At least ST has properly functioning holograms? The ones in ST can actually do stuff. In SW they're like overrated phone displays.
"Overrated phone displays" that can be used to talk to people on the other side of the galaxy in real-time. If push came to shove, I'd rather have that then a holodeck that takes over your ship.

Still the fact remains: Jar Jar is lame AND annoying, Wesley & Neelix are merely annoying.
"Merely annoying" for over 200 hours of screentime though. Quantity trumps Quality in this case :)

Last time I checked SW still only had organic lifeforms. ST on the other side may have less original organic lifeforms, but at least ST has whisps and other non-organic metaphysical lifeforms.
Oh yeah, an alien-of-the-week made of gas or crystal that we'll never see again, at least SW's are more consistent.

Don't be jealous of the fact ST actually HAS a holodeck.
Functionality trumps all.

I don't consider drunk people an advantage :rolleyes:
But there's so much you can do with them...

I wouldn't mind living for over 300 years though.
Yeah, but you can only have sex 40 times throughout your entire life

Moantha

12-02-2006, 20:36

Wars already has cloaking devices, and methods of detecting them

Really? In the actual movies? I must have missed them.

If you want an example, watch Way of the Warrior. About a third of the time, the only weapon the Klingons beam on board the station with is a bat'leth.

Who won that battle. And besides. If a third of them carried it, it's hardly all they ever carry into battle.

Plus, if you slip, you're not likely to cut your own limb off.

Based on what? They couldn't assimilate S8472 because they didn't understand how their bio-tech worked. What makes you think they would understand how a Hyperdrive or Turbolaser works? Not to mention they'd never get a chance in the first place when a Wars ships blows them into particles after the first shot or two.

Nope. First off, there's yet to be a valid comparison between the various powers. Especially when you take into account the whole Borg adapting to various weaponry. Second, they couldn't assimilate 8472 because the species had an immune system capable of fighting off the nanoprobes. The ships, being genetically very similar to the species itself, were also immune. Third, what on Earth would make you think that the Borg can't assimilate technology they don't understand. The Borg gained practically all of their technology by assimilating it.

Yeah, some lame excuse in a TNG episode, still doesn't explain how that's the only life to evolve in the entire galaxy (besides changelings).

And the Q continium. Various things with no physical form, a photonic species, a couple species in ToS, like the one that was a giant rockish thing. And in the Star Wars movies, besides the Hutts, most of the aliens were bipedal, at least roughly humanoid.

Jordaxia

12-02-2006, 20:48

Really? In the actual movies? I must have missed them.

Indeed "But no ship that size can hold a cloaking device!" or something. Needa, I believe, says it when the falcon disappears off of their scanners.

Nope. First off, there's yet to be a valid comparison between the various powers. Especially when you take into account the whole Borg adapting to various weaponry. Second, they couldn't assimilate 8472 because the species had an immune system capable of fighting off the nanoprobes. The ships, being genetically very similar to the species itself, were also immune. Third, what on Earth would make you think that the Borg can't assimilate technology they don't understand. The Borg gained practically all of their technology by assimilating it.

.

The borg wouldn't stand a chance. Firstly, ST teleporters have been stopped by common elements on a planet and numerous other things. Secondly, the borg don't know the layout of an ISD. a jammer would increase the chances they simply teleport into a wall. And ISD hulls are made of thick, exotic alloys (durasteel, plascrete, even some neutronium). the chances of teleporters working at all is slim. Also,the borg shields work through adapting to a phase. SW weaponry is just energy. Matching phase won't do crap, they'll simply be overpowered in moments. Especially given how powerful their weapons are.

Moantha

12-02-2006, 20:55

Indeed "But no ship that size can hold a cloaking device!" or something. Needa, I believe, says it when the falcon disappears off of their scanners.

Alright, then, what about their ways for detecting it?

The borg wouldn't stand a chance. Firstly, ST teleporters have been stopped by common elements on a planet and numerous other things. Secondly, the borg don't know the layout of an ISD. a jammer would increase the chances they simply teleport into a wall. And ISD hulls are made of thick, exotic alloys (durasteel, plascrete, even some neutronium). the chances of teleporters working at all is slim. Also,the borg shields work through adapting to a phase. SW weaponry is just energy. Matching phase won't do crap, they'll simply be overpowered in moments. Especially given how powerful their weapons are.

See, but you have yet to provide canonical proof to me that Imp weapons are that much more powerful.

In any case, I can see at this point that neither one of us is going to convince the other. I feel that if we can agree on that, this argument will be much more enjoyable.

Minoriteeburg

12-02-2006, 21:04

I was always a bigger fan of SW ships than the star trek ships. the enterprise would never win a dogfight against the falcon.

HC Eredivisie

12-02-2006, 21:09

Indeed "But no ship that size can hold a cloaking device!" or something. Needa, I believe, says it when the falcon disappears off of their scanners.While in ST vessels smaller than the MF can have a cloak, by the way, ST cloaks can be detected by tachyon beams (except those new one from Nemesis).

The borg wouldn't stand a chance. Firstly, ST teleporters have been stopped by common elements on a planet and numerous other things.That are the Fed transporters, the Borg can beam through shields (Feds cannot, most of the time). Although I would prefer a transporter that works most of the time over one that doesn't exist;)

Secondly, the borg don't know the layout of an ISD. a jammer would increase the chances they simply teleport into a wall.Say 40% of the ISD is wall, floor etc, if the Borg beam 100 drones over at least 60 would appear in an open space. Cubes carry 500 - 179,000 drones:p

And ISD hulls are made of thick, exotic alloys (durasteel, plascrete, even some neutronium). the chances of teleporters working at all is slim.Then the feds just route power through the deflector and tripolarize the tachyonfield emitter, whatever, it'll work after some technobabble:p

Also,the borg shields work through adapting to a phase. SW weaponry is just energy. Matching phase won't do crap, they'll simply be overpowered in moments. Especially given how powerful their weapons are.Then the Borg reroute the energy from the SW weapons to the shields, or not, whatever, maybe they can.

edit for Minoriteeburg: The enterprise would just fire its phasers at it.

Jordaxia

12-02-2006, 21:14

Alright, then, what about their ways for detecting it?

Actually, from what I've read, there IS no way to detect an SW cloaking device. it's perfect. Unfortunately, it's TOO perfect, as sensors on board the craft can't see out.

See, but you have yet to provide canonical proof to me that Imp weapons are that much more powerful.

In any case, I can see at this point that neither one of us is going to convince the other. I feel that if we can agree on that, this argument will be much more enjoyable.

On your second point, yes. I'm not aiming to "convince" anyone, just for the fun of debate.

As for your first, I thought I had. The Death star, which unleashes enough energy to essentially vapourise a planet (almost entirely, but there is a residue field) in a fraction of a second. That's several million times more than necessary, in fact, I think there's a stat on it. Gimme a moment.

"The Alderaan debris cloud expanded at roughly 4% of the speed of light. (this is assumed that the planet is about the same size as Earth) If we assume that the inside of the cloud had an even simple distribution between 0 and 4% of the speed of light, its average velocity would be roughly 2% of the speed of light, so its kinetic energy would be roughly 1E38 joules. This is, of course, a staggering amount of energy. Try to imagine seizing the entire planet Earth and hurling it like a football at 6 million metres per second, or try to imagine how much power the Sun generates in eight thousand years, and you'll have some idea of how much energy it takes to blow apart a planet the way Alderaan was destroyed."

The deathstar unleashes enough firepower from its main gun to do that. SW weapons are quite powerful.
light turbolasers on an ISD can vapourise an asteroid in the same amount of time. These are both from the movies, obviously.

SW weapons are quite powerful.

HC Eredivisie

12-02-2006, 21:20

Actually, from what I've read, there IS no way to detect an SW cloaking device. it's perfect. Unfortunately, it's TOO perfect, as sensors on board the craft can't see out.I wouldn't call it perfect then. Not being able to look through it makes it pretty shitty and useless in my eyes.

snip: DS things were hereThe Xindi weapon did that to Earth:p

About the cloak: which SW vessel was supposed to have it anyway?

Lt_Cody

12-02-2006, 21:28

Really? In the actual movies? I must have missed them.
"No ship that size has a cloaking device!"- Captain Needa, ESB

Who won that battle.
The Feddies, because they weren't idiots who brought knives to a gun fight :D

And besides. If a third of them carried it, it's hardly all they ever carry into battle.
Never said that's all that all of them ever carry, just that a good portion of it.

Plus, if you slip, you're not likely to cut your own limb off.
Nor your opponent's, either :D

Nope. First off, there's yet to be a valid comparison between the various powers.
Sure there is, the Borg control a few hundred worlds in the DQ, the Empire controls an entire galaxy

Especially when you take into account the whole Borg adapting to various weaponry.
Bull, they couldn't adapt to S8472's weapons, nor could they adapt to the raw power of a solar flare or kinetic energy attacks, and even after adaptation the fleet in First Contact was still able to damage the Cube before Picard came in to finish it off. This adaptaion no-limits fallacy is just that.

Second, they couldn't assimilate 8472 because the species had an immune system capable of fighting off the nanoprobes. The ships, being genetically very similar to the species itself, were also immune.
Fine

Third, what on Earth would make you think that the Borg can't assimilate technology they don't understand. The Borg gained practically all of their technology by assimilating it.
There's a difference between stealing technology that shares common characteristics with your own, and stealing technology that uses an entire different set of physics behind it. There is nothing in common between a Warp Drive and Hyperdrive, or a Phaser and a Turbolaser.

And the Q continium. Various things with no physical form, a photonic species, a couple species in ToS, like the one that was a giant rockish thing.
Again, more alien-of-the-week examples.

And in the Star Wars movies, besides the Hutts, most of the aliens were bipedal, at least roughly humanoid.
So aliens like the Anx, Arachnor, Bouncers, Celegians, Fosh, Selonians, Gands, Gen'Dai, Killiks, Kushibans, Neti, Oswafts, Pa'lowicks, Priapulins, Quermians, Selonians, Ssi-Ruuk, Thakwaash, and Vor aren't non-humanoid enough for you? And that's only the known sentient species.

HC Eredivisie

12-02-2006, 21:37

Sure there is, the Borg control a few hundred worlds in the DQMore like a few thousand, seeing as they assimilated 10,000+ species.

Again, more alien-of-the-week examples.It was a show that airs once a week, what do you want then?:confused:

So aliens like the Anx, Arachnor, Bouncers, Celegians, Fosh, Selonians, Gands, Gen'Dai, Killiks, Kushibans, Neti, Oswafts, Pa'lowicks, Priapulins, Quermians, Selonians, Ssi-Ruuk, Thakwaash, and Vor aren't non-humanoid enough for you? And that's only the known sentient species.I see lots of names;)

The Nuke Testgrounds

12-02-2006, 22:11

Again, more alien-of-the-week examples.

Uh, same goes for SW? I bet 99% of the species as seen in the Republic Senate will never again have made an appearance in the movies.

Admit it, you're jealous of the quantity of species in the ST universe.

Yeah, but you can only have sex 40 times throughout your entire life.

That's alot more often than some people wil ever have ;) .

Rhursbourg

12-02-2006, 23:40

both are equally good and bad as each other, but where is options for the original series of Flash Gordon

Lt_Cody

13-02-2006, 01:29

More like a few thousand, seeing as they assimilated 10,000+ species.
S8472 had destroyed some several hundred worlds by the time Voyager came along and the Borg were already on the brink of defeat from that. Thousands, at most.

It was a show that airs once a week, what do you want then?:confused:
That they put more thought into their aliens? Except for a few instances, they all suffer from the Bumpy Forehead Syndrome and are created only to fulfill some role for that episode before they're thrown away and never heard from again.

Uh, same goes for SW? I bet 99% of the species as seen in the Republic Senate will never again have made an appearance in the movies.
Maybe not the movies, but they are in the EU

Admit it, you're jealous of the quantity of species in the ST universe.
Admit what? The vast majority of Trek's aliens are one-dimensional characters - Klingons are Space Vikings, Ferengi are Greedy Capitalists, Romulans are Sneaky Bastards, ect. There are no Wars aliens that you can typecast like that.

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 04:49

Bah! Reflect this, Jedi nerd!

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Special/handweap/VOY1-cathexis-widehit-crop1.jpg

Right, so as long as all combat against Jedi takes place indoors and they don't force-whack you right back out the door or force-grab your weapon, despite that you're in range of either...You can do about the same damage as a 20th century stun grenade, with the added problem that you have to expose yourself to fire rather than just tossing the grenade inside.

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 05:09

That phaser was set to stun. It could have been set higher and killed the bridge crew but that would mean killing main characters, not just red shirts. I recorded the Voyager and TNG series' on video.

I don't know why people have these debates. The only thing Star Trek and Star Wars have in common besides their names both containing the wrod "Star" is that they both have people flying around space shooting each other. Trek is more diverse but can never show enough of any one story while Wars shows just one but goes much deeper. Personally I prefer Trek but I still went to see ep. 1-3 when they came out. Both are just eye candy. They mean nothing. Don't fight over them, don't make them into something they're not.

I used to think these debates were funny, now I just feel a great swell of pity for the poor souls involved and hatred for those that spark them. Cannonball!

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 05:14

That phaser was set to stun. It could have been set higher and killed the bridge crew but that would mean killing main characters, not just red shirts. I recorded the Voyager and TNG series' on video.

Really? Then why has 'wide beam kill' never been used, even in situations where it would have saved lives like the episode of DS9 with the unit of soldiers defending something or other from Jem'Hadar? Most likely, because the extra beam size massively increases power drain, meaning the phaser can't be set to wide-beam and kill at the same time. Nice no-limits fallacy, tho.

Kerubia

13-02-2006, 05:27

Really? Then why has 'wide beam kill' never been used, even in situations where it would have saved lives like the episode of DS9 with the unit of soldiers defending something or other from Jem'Hadar? Most likely, because the extra beam size massively increases power drain, meaning the phaser can't be set to wide-beam and kill at the same time. Nice no-limits fallacy, tho.

It would increase power drain, that's simple logic there.

However, that very episode of which the wide-angle phaser was used proved that there is a wide-angle kill.

Tuvok says "this phaser is on wide-beam dispersal and set to kill".

No one contradicts him. Because he's right.

As for it never being used, it's because the writers never implemented it, not because it can't happen.

EDIT: By the way, the episode is "Cathexis[VOY1]"

And not to mention, on episode "Frame of Mind"[TNG6] . . . Riker sets his phaser to maximum (setting 16), on a wide field, and comments that it should destroy half the building.

ANOTHER EDIT:

Right, so as long as all combat against Jedi takes place indoors and they don't force-whack you right back out the door or force-grab your weapon

Fortunately the Jedi never seem to do that in large battles too often. Like you know, how they didn't do it when the troopers sacked the Jedi temple? Or was it Geonsis? Must mean they can't, right?

We'll let you decide why they didn't use it often there--are the Jedi not capable of it, or is it because the writers forgot to implement it?

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 05:37

While it would increase the power requirement, it is possible. It would just drain the sarium krellide power cell in one or two shots and those things aren't cheap. I've read the TNG tech manual (by Sterbach and Okuda so what it says counts) cover to cover 6 times over.

From section 11.7, Personal Phasers:

Sarium krellide holds a maximum of 1.3 x 10^6 megajoules per cubic centimeter, at a maximum leak rate of no more than 1.05 kilojoules per hour. If one considers that the total stored energy of the Type I phaser, if released all at once, is enough to vaporize three cubic meters of tritanium, it is reassuring to know that a full storage cell cannot be discharged accidentally...The Type I cell measures 2.4 x 3.0 cm and holds 7.2 x 10^6 MJ; the Type II cel measures 1.02 x 3.0 cm and holds 4.5 x 10^7 MJ.

If you think I'm making that up, look for yourself. Official publication by the guys that ran TNG and it follows cannon to the letter. Don't argue with me about Trek, I know my Trek.

Kerubia

13-02-2006, 05:38

I've read the TNG tech manual

I've heard that isn't canon.

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 05:44

I've heard that isn't canon.

No, that would be Franz Joseph's TOS Tech manual. I know about that, I have my fathers copy, I have read it as well. I know what's wrong with it.

The TNG manual was written and designed by Rick and Michael and even had an intro from Gene. It was published by Pocket Books in November of 1991.

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 05:49

Tuvok says "this phaser is on wide-beam dispersal and set to kill".

And not to mention, on episode "Frame of Mind"[TNG6] . . . Riker sets his phaser to maximum (setting 16), on a wide field, and comments that it should destroy half the building.

And in neither case is it actually fired. It also isn't fired in numerous other situations where it would be advantageous to do so: we should therefore assume they were bluffing, in both cases. There's simply no visual evidence of wide-beam kill settings.

Fortunately the Jedi never seem to do that in large battles too often. Like you know, how they didn't do it when the troopers sacked the Jedi temple? Or was it Geonsis? Must mean they can't, right?

Except for the Clone Wars cartoon, where it was done constantly in several sequences. So they can.

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 05:58

They didn't fire the wide-beam kill because the writers wanted suspense and drama. The Type II phaser can fire a wide-beam Explosive/Disruption.

Is that cartoon even cannon?

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 06:00

Is that cartoon even cannon?

Most things in Wars are, to some extent.

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 06:03

To some extent! Just about anything with the Lucas-label slapped on it and "Star Wars" somehwere on the package is cannon "to some extent."

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 06:09

To some extent! Just about anything with the Lucas-label slapped on it and "Star Wars" somehwere on the package is cannon "to some extent."

Yes, according to the Star Wars canon policy there are various 'levels' of Canon: the highest is the movies and their scripts and novelisations, then the extended universe including comics and games [storyline only, in most cases], then other things.

In any case, the Clone Wars cartoon doesn't contradict anything we've seen; Luke, Yoda, the Emperor, Vader and Dooku, to name just a few, have all used the Force to grab or throw objects, all of equal size to a phaser [Luke's Lightsabre] and in some cases enormously larger size [the giant ashtrays in the Senate, the enormous 'thing' Dooku threw at Obi-Wan and Anakin at the end of Episode 2, Yoda lifting Luke's X-Wing].

Straughn

13-02-2006, 06:13

Admit what? The vast majority of Trek's aliens are one-dimensional characters - Klingons are Space Vikings, Ferengi are Greedy Capitalists, Romulans are Sneaky Bastards, ect. There are no Wars aliens that you can typecast like that.
You folks have a good discussion here.
I'm just chiming in that the expansion to the SW universe qualifies pretty well what general characteristics the species endorse. It makes it easier for game play and plot issues.

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 06:15

Straughn

13-02-2006, 06:17

We'll let you decide why they didn't use it often there--are the Jedi not capable of it, or is it because the writers forgot to implement it?
There's one *HUGE* friggin' discrepency to the SW writing that was also in the movie Dark City, as per your statement here ...
i'll let you guess what it is. It truly would have changed the whole nature of conflict in both stories. The irritating thing is both stories danced RIGHT AROUND it.

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 06:22

But we don't see them do it in the movies frequently. We see that they can do it, but we only see them do it once or twice in a scene, except for the ep. 3 battle between yoda and the emp. The point is that we don't see them constantly grabbing weapons in the 6 movies. Aside from the sabers during a duel, I remember Vader taking Solo's gun...once.

Which shows it can be done; in any case, 'stun' doesn't always stun people, and we have no idea if higher settings might be needed to put down a powerful Jedi: we have seen some powerful lifeforms that shrugged off phasers set to stun in Trek. In any case, unless our setup for this conflict is 'a Jedi is standing in a room and one Federation guy is standing outside with a phaser, and the Jedi doesn't start by cutting through the door and pwning him' this doesn't have much bearing on who would win.

I don't consider comics or games from either Trek or Wars to be cannon. To me, nothing is cannon until it gets on screen or tv, but cartoons don't count. That goes for both the clone wars cartoon and TAS.

Well, Lucasfilm's canon policy disagrees. They say the main canon is the stuff on TV, but the EU is valid as long as it doesn't contradict anything you see in those movies.

Andaras Prime

13-02-2006, 06:26

Which shows it can be done; in any case, 'stun' doesn't always stun people, and we have no idea if higher settings might be needed to put down a powerful Jedi: we have seen some powerful lifeforms that shrugged off phasers set to stun in Trek. In any case, unless our setup for this conflict is 'a Jedi is standing in a room and one Federation guy is standing outside with a phaser, and the Jedi doesn't start by cutting through the door and pwning him' this doesn't have much bearing on who would win.

Well, Lucasfilm's canon policy disagrees. They say the main canon is the stuff on TV, but the EU is valid as long as it doesn't contradict anything you see in those movies.
Many SW fans think the only canon is what's in the movies, not in the expanded universe. I think I have to agree, I mean some expanded universe stuff is rubbish.

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 06:29

in any case, 'stun' doesn't always stun people, and we have no idea if higher settings might be needed to put down a powerful JediWe've seen jedi get shot with blasters and fall dead from one hit.

Oh, and we saw in ep. 1 that it can take a while to cut through a door so a red shirt waiting on the other side need just point and shoot and *poof* the jedi and door disapear.

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 06:30

We've seen jedi get shot with blasters and fall dead from one hit.

Irrelevant. A blaster isn't a phaser set to stun.

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 06:34

Your right! A blaster is a crude weapon that fires bolts of plasma. The typical hand blaster is less powerful than a phaser and doesn't come with as many bells and whistles.

And so there is no confusion about "Setting 3, heavy stun; discharge energy 160.65 for 1.025 seconds, SEM:NDF ratio not applicable. Base humanoids remain in a sleep state for approximately one hour, resistant bioforms for fifteen minutes. Single discharges raise 1cc of water by 100C. Structural samples experience significant levels of thermal radiation. The damage index is 1."

Lt_Cody

13-02-2006, 06:34

Many SW fans think the only canon is what's in the movies, not in the expanded universe. I think I have to agree, I mean some expanded universe stuff is rubbish.
Well luckily Lucas' Policy > Fan's Policy :D Besides, the EU has given us some good stuff like Thrawn.

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 06:40

Your right! A blaster is a crude weapon that fires bolts of plasma. The typical hand blaster is less powerful than a phaser and doesn't come with as many bells and whistles.

We've seen a blaster blow huge holes in a concrete docking bay wall [Empire Strikes Back]. Phasers can be stopped by the packing crates that seem to populate every narrow corridor in the Trek-verse. How are they 'more powerful' when the power level they seem to be stuck on for most combat scenes is vastly less powerful?

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 06:45

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 06:48

"Setting 16: Explosive/Disruption Effects; discharge energy 1.55 x 10^6 for 0.28 seconds, SEM:NDF ration 1:40. The damage index is 2,450;sheilded matter exhibits light mechanical fracturing damage. Heavy geological displacement; <650 m3 rock/ore of 6.0 g/cm3 explosively uncoupled per discharge."

Shame we've never seen that and the TM you got it from is dismissed as non-canon 'speculation' by the people who wrote it, hm? If it can do that, why not crank up the volume and blow up those packing crates?

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 06:54

I already explained that the TNG manual is the cannon collection that runs up to season 4. The Franz Joseph TOS manual is the speculation book.

It's called 'Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual'
It should be at your local library, along with the entertaining but inaccurate book by Franz.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0671704273.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

As for why they don't use a better setting, it's a futuristic fantasy. Fiction that people write to entertain. If any of this were real I'm sure they would crank up the setting, just as I'm sure the jedi would use the force left and right to solve all their problems. You get what you pay for and Star Trek is broadcast freely to your TV.

The non cannon book is this:
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0345340744.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,32,-59_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 07:08

I already explained that the TNG manual is the cannon collection that runs up to season 4. The Franz Joseph TOS manual is the speculation book.

No, they both are. This is the Trek canon policy in all it's glory.

As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, the Animated Adventures, and the various comic lines are not canon.

There are a couple of exceptions to this rule: the Jeri Taylor penned novels "Mosaic" and "Pathways." Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters. (Note: There are a few details from an episode of the Animated Adventures that have entered into the Star Trek canon. The episode "Yesteryear," written by D.C. Fontana, features some biographical background on Spock.)

Both TMs have been dismissed as 'speculation' and the TM you have is noted for some astoundingly bad scientific errors [from units to various ridiculous statements on physics] and factual errors. [the ship diagram has no cargo bays even though we've seen them on the show]

Dosuun

13-02-2006, 07:14

And if you look closely at the cutaway of the ship in the back of main engineering you'll see a duck, a mouse, and a car on decks 3 and 4 directly under the main bridge.

This is not real. It doesn't have to make sense.

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 07:42

This is not real. It doesn't have to make sense.

In which case, the Empire would win because it would turn into a giant tennis racket and bat the entire Star Trek universe into a huge bucket full of eels.

It does, in fact, have to make sense.

BackwoodsSquatches

13-02-2006, 08:17

Most things in Wars are, to some extent.

Not true.

The only "Canon" are the six movies, and the Clone Wars Cartoon.
Other books in the "EU" have been accepted as canon, although Lucas didnt write them.
Those being the "Heir to the Empire" trilogy..

Thats it.

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 08:24

The only "Canon" are the six movies, and the Clone Wars Cartoon.
Other books in the "EU" have been accepted as canon, although Lucas didnt write them.
Those being the "Heir to the Empire" trilogy..

Thats it.

No, it's not. Lucasfilm's canon policy is that the entire EU is lower-level canon than the six movies, their scripts, and their novelisations. Where the EU contradicts the movies, the movies take precidence. Where it does not, it is canon.

BackwoodsSquatches

13-02-2006, 08:51

No, it's not. Lucasfilm's canon policy is that the entire EU is lower-level canon than the six movies, their scripts, and their novelisations. Where the EU contradicts the movies, the movies take precidence. Where it does not, it is canon.

I assure you, it most certainly is.

In fact, were Lucas to do the last three movies he originally dreamt of, they would follow a similar jist.
This is out of Lucas' own mouth.

The rest of the novels, comics, etc, follow precisely as you decribe above.
In fact, the Timothy Zahn trilogy is the only case of anything not written by Lucas where he has agreed to this.

Rumours had it that the novel set between ESB, and RoTJ, (whos name I cant remember at the moment..dammit...featuring Dash Rendar, was also supposed to be accepted as well, and in the re-edited Special Edition of A New Hope, you can see the Outrider in Mos Eisley.

Ive looked....never seen it.
probably crap.

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 09:04

I assure you, it most certainly is.

In fact, were Lucas to do the last three movies he originally dreamt of, they would follow a similar jist.
This is out of Lucas' own mouth.

The rest of the novels, comics, etc, follow precisely as you decribe above.
In fact, the Timothy Zahn trilogy is the only case of anything not written by Lucas where he has agreed to this.

Um, the Lucasfilm canon policy:

As of 2000, Lucas Licensing has appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity tracking database referred to as the "Holocron". As with every other aspect having to do with the overall story of Star Wars, the Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years.

The Holocron is divided into 4 levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon always overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe; SW books, comics, and games. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay are N-canon. Though even certain things from stats and gameplay have made their way over to C-canon occasionally.

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon". What-if stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.

To summarize, all elements are part of the Star Wars story, unless they contradict the events of the six films in a way that cannot be rationalized. All elements contradicting the films are deemed apocrypha, and are not considered canon. There is also an "infinities" storyline in Star Wars publishing, which has the intent of telling non-canon Star Wars stories, using a "what-if?" attitude.

HC Eredivisie

13-02-2006, 10:41

And in neither case is it actually fired. It also isn't fired in numerous other situations where it would be advantageous to do so: we should therefore assume they were bluffing, in both cases. There's simply no visual evidence of wide-beam kill settings.So Tuvok was bluffing and the entire bridge crew didn't know that, yeah right.
Because no one said otherwise we have to assume that Tuvok (and Riker?) was correct.

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 10:54

So Tuvok was bluffing and the entire bridge crew didn't know that, yeah right.
Because no one said otherwise we have to assume that Tuvok (and Riker?) was correct.

No, we don't. We never saw it fired, and have never seen 'wide beam kill' even when it would be advantageous to use it. Therefore, we should not assume it is possible unless there is visual evidence to the contrary. There isn't.

Anyway, weren't the bridge crew under alien control or something in that episode, or some other shit? After all, Tuvok doesn't tend to go for practical jokes, so why was he stunning everyone?

The ancient Republic

13-02-2006, 10:56

To those who think that the borg could be a problem for the empire (how they could ever think that I'll never understand...)

Ssi-Ruuvi Entechment Rigs

The Ssi-ruuvi entechment rig is a diabolical piece of technology first created by the reptilian Ssi-ruuvi species in their attempt to attack the human race, both New Republic and Imperial, during the battle of Bakura (ref. Truce at Bakura). It is a bed to which a person is forcibly strapped, and through its unique technology, the life force is literally drained away from a victim. This life force is converted to energy and stored in battery coils for use in weapon or shield technology.

The Ssi-ruuvi reptiles discovered that Force-adepts were capable of enteching victims from thousands of kilometres away once captured in an entechment rig, and so they attempted to capture Luke Skywalker for this purpose. However, he escaped his bonds and began slaughtering Ssi-ruuvi aboard their flagship. He single-handedly captured their flagship, and forced their retreat from Imperial territory.

These entechment rigs have obviously been outlawed in all civilized regions of the galaxy, and the Ssi-Ruuvi homeworld was recently obliterated as part of Emperor Solo's grand plan to restore order and security to the galaxy. However, some Ssi-ruuvi still survive, and several entechment rigs have been stored in Imperial science facilities. Although we have no plans to use these entechment rigs at present, we have research scientists working on the possibility that an entechment rig might be used to potentially drain the life force from the entire Borg collective.

The Borg collective is inter-connected in a manner that transcends mere data transmission. As we saw when Commander Chakotay was healed by being joined with a small Borg mini-collective, the Borg actually share life energy through their collective network. This shared life energy is a source of great strength but it can potentially be a source of great weakness if a single Borg drone is subdued and forced into an entechment rig. Although this avenue of research holds great promise as an economical method of quickly eliminating the Borg presence in Federation space (an act which might actually be welcomed by the locals), the subject is still under research.

:cool:

Joeisha

13-02-2006, 10:58

Bodies Without Organs this in answer to your request in my last thread. :D

Star wars or Star trek? Which do you like better and why?
cos its way cooler

HC Eredivisie

13-02-2006, 11:37

No, we don't. We never saw it fired, and have never seen 'wide beam kill' even when it would be advantageous to use it. Therefore, we should not assume it is possible unless there is visual evidence to the contrary. There isn't.Tuvok says that his phaser is set to a 'wide beam kill' setting (something along those lines) and no one contradicted him, therefore it exists. That it hasn't been used would be a character mistake (like the Imperial gunner who didn't shoot the pod carrying R2 and C3PO in ANH)

Anyway, weren't the bridge crew under alien control or something in that episode, or some other shit? After all, Tuvok doesn't tend to go for practical jokes, so why was he stunning everyone?Tuvok was the one under alien control but he stil had all of his memories (and no, it's not an excuse for 'wide beam kill' not existing, if 'alien-Tuvok' was lying the bridge crew would have known that)

The Nuke Testgrounds

13-02-2006, 11:49

On a sidenote:

I think the Gundam Wing series pwn both ST and SW in the kewlness factor.:D

http://animepa.csusm.edu/galleries/F-G/GundamW/lg/wing.jpg

GMC Military Arms

13-02-2006, 11:54

Tuvok says that his phaser is set to a 'wide beam kill' setting (something along those lines) and no one contradicted him, therefore it exists.

If I pointed a 9mm pistol at you and told you I was going to shoot a 40mm grenade at you if you moved, would you move? You don't tend to point out technical errors when someone's pointing a gun at you.

Vader once said that 'The power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.' Since nobody contradicted him, should we assume there's a Force power literally stronger than the Death Star and therefore the Emperor could destroy star systems with his mind? Maybe he just never uses this power because of a 'character mistake.' :rolleyes:

Crazy girl

13-02-2006, 12:00

The Nuke Testgrounds

13-02-2006, 12:09

Everyone carries a bit of the Force in him/her/it

Those who are Force-sensitive can use the Force, but not all of it.

The Force itself is bigger than one being, than one planet.

Hope that makes sense:p

Also, I like both, Star Wars and Star Trek

Play both SW:KoTOR and SW:KoTOR II, pay attention to the storyline and you will know a lot more of the Force than this ;) .

Crazy girl

13-02-2006, 13:13

Games don't count, only movies do :p

HC Eredivisie

13-02-2006, 16:24

If I pointed a 9mm pistol at you and told you I was going to shoot a 40mm grenade at you if you moved, would you move? You don't tend to point out technical errors when someone's pointing a gun at you.I would move, knowing that it would be impossible to shoot 40 mm grenades from 1 9mm pistol. Obviously ST phasers do have the 'wide beam kill' setting.

Vader once said that 'The power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.' Since nobody contradicted him, should we assume there's a Force power literally stronger than the Death Star and therefore the Emperor could destroy star systems with his mind? Maybe he just never uses this power because of a 'character mistake.' :rolleyes:The Force is in every person in SW, if Vader meant the combined Force of all beings living in their galaxy the combined power would indeed be bigger than the power to destroy planets. But I don't think any one is SW can use all the power of the Force at once (when someone could he might be able to destroy planets with a thought).;)

Kerubia

13-02-2006, 20:21

No, we don't. We never saw it fired, and have never seen 'wide beam kill' even when it would be advantageous to use it. Therefore, we should not assume it is possible unless there is visual evidence to the contrary. There isn't.

We do know it is possible because of the proof mentioned in both (and the many other episodes showing evidence of it). Indirect proof is just as much proof as direct proof.

There's simply no visual evidence of wide-beam kill settings.

Nor do we need it.

Oh, and by the way, you're wrong.

"The Enemy Within"[TOS1] We saw Sulu using the wide-beam phaser, and he was able to melt rock. That's WAY more than enough to melt humans.

There's plenty of evidence supporting wide-beam killing, both from visual observation and logical inference.

Yathura

13-02-2006, 20:34

Games don't count, only movies do :p
KOTOR has the only good storyline to come out of Star Wars since Return of the Jedi.

The Sword and Sheild

13-02-2006, 23:54

Games don't count, only movies do :p

According to Lucasfilm, the games do count, or at least everything that has nothing to do with game mechanics(like one jedi being able to defeat 100 billion enemies, or an X-wing single-handedly taking on a Star Destroyer), so the plot does count unless in conflict with a higher level of canon (Novelizations, radio dramas, the movies, Lucas himself). As do the books, comics, radio dramas, etc. As opposed to Paramount, which maintains that only the ST TV shows and movies are canon.

GMC Military Arms

14-02-2006, 07:04

I would move, knowing that it would be impossible to shoot 40 mm grenades from 1 9mm pistol. Obviously ST phasers do have the 'wide beam kill' setting.

In which case you would be shot with a 9mm bullet and end up just as dead. You don't aggrivate someone who's pointing a lethal weapon at you. The fact that you know he can't kill all of you doesn't mean he can't kill you.

We do know it is possible because of the proof mentioned in both (and the many other episodes showing evidence of it). Indirect proof is just as much proof as direct proof.

No, it's no proof at all. If a capability is claimed but not shown and not used in situations where it should be, we cannot leap to the assumption that the capability exists. At very least, we should assume there's some pressing reason [extremely high power drain, possibility of overload, etc] that means we never hear of 'wide-beam kill' outside of extremely desperate situations: and that therefore, it's not something that could be used outside of such situations. Even then, we have no visual evidence when we should have: Occam's Razor therefore demands we assume that the capability does not exist as opposed to 'does exist but for some reason is never used.'

To correct your broken analogy from earlier; if, rather than the gunners in ANH not firing we had never seen a Star Destroyer fire in any one of the Star Wars films, would you accept a claim that it could destroy stars just because someone said it was a Star Destroyer?

"The Enemy Within"[TOS1] We saw Sulu using the wide-beam phaser, and he was able to melt rock. That's WAY more than enough to melt humans.

Yes, nevermind that phasers exhibit wildly differing performance against different materials [blowing holes in rock like blasting caps, making humans magically disappear but still being totally unable to penetrate a packing crate]. Do we know that phaser was set to full power? Hell, TOS phasers didn't even have that kind of 16-level power setting. Red herring; given the bizarre behaviour of phasers, you can't prove anything with their performance against a differing material.

There's plenty of evidence supporting wide-beam killing, both from visual observation and logical inference.

No, there isn't. Logic dictates that if such a capability existed it would have been used, specifically in episodes like 'Siege of AR-338' where it would have saved lives. All we have is two pieces of dialog, both from people issuing threats to others, to support the idea that wide-beam kill settings are possible; it's never been used on-screen to kill someone, so assuming it exists is as much of a leap in logic as assuming Vader meant he could use the Force to destroy entire star systems if he felt like it. Or assuming Corbomite devices actually exist, for that matter.

The ancient Republic

14-02-2006, 10:00

Vader once said that 'The power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.' Since nobody contradicted him, should we assume there's a Force power literally stronger than the Death Star and therefore the Emperor could destroy star systems with his mind? Maybe he just never uses this power because of a 'character mistake.' :rolleyes:

The force is everywhere, in all living and inanimate objects (except some few creatures), it's surrounds them and flows trough them. If a sith (I would consider this a sith-technique) was motivated and trained enough he could destroy the universe...

"Do, or do not, there is no try"

I'm curious as to what the fed's would do if two droidekas suddenly rolled up on their bridge, deployed their shields and fired away? The word "die" comes to mind...:D

West Morrissia

14-02-2006, 10:16

If a sith (I would consider this a sith-technique) was motivated and trained enough he could destroy the universe...

I guess its possible. But I think in the scheme of things, it would be a power thats just too difficult to learn.

If a jedi were powerful enough (and we're tallking a metaclorien count thousands of times higher than vaders) then they could crush a whole planet like a weaker jedi would crush someones windpipe.

HC Eredivisie

14-02-2006, 10:41

In which case you would be shot with a 9mm bullet and end up just as dead. You don't aggrivate someone who's pointing a lethal weapon at you. The fact that you know he can't kill all of you doesn't mean he can't kill you.And when you shoot me somebody else is able to get the weapon from you, but we are now getting away from the point wether 'wide beam kill' exists or not.

No, it's no proof at all. If a capability is claimed but not shown and not used in situations where it should be, we cannot leap to the assumption that the capability exists. At very least, we should assume there's some pressing reason [extremely high power drain, possibility of overload, etc] that means we never hear of 'wide-beam kill' outside of extremely desperate situations:The bold part is probably the reason it is almost never used.

To correct your broken analogy from earlier; if, rather than the gunners in ANH not firing we had never seen a Star Destroyer fire in any one of the Star Wars films, would you accept a claim that it could destroy stars just because someone said it was a Star Destroyer?You mis out the bit '[notfiring] at the pod carrying R2 and C3PO'.

(BTW, you seem to have put something said between Kerubia's posts)

Yes, nevermind that phasers exhibit wildly differing performance against different materials [blowing holes in rock like blasting caps, making humans magically disappear but still being totally unable to penetrate a packing crate].At least phasers can kill people and blow holes in rocks where blasters seem to bounce of of metal surfaces. (Or the packing crates are magic:p )

Do we know that phaser was set to full power? Hell, TOS phasers didn't even have that kind of 16-level power setting. Red herring; given the bizarre behaviour of phasers, you can't prove anything with their performance against a differing material.If it didn't have a powersetting it still would be capable of killing a person. If it had a setting and was on the maximum setting it would be capable of killing a person. If it wasn't on maximum setting it would again be capable of killing a person. We even seen them kill people, so it doesn't really matter on how it affects other materials.

GMC Military Arms

14-02-2006, 10:57

And when you shoot me somebody else is able to get the weapon from you, but we are now getting away from the point wether 'wide beam kill' exists or not.

Correct. But you are still dead, which is why you avoid making yourself the first person to be shot by being a smartass to the guy with the gun and the desperate expression, no?

The bold part is probably the reason it is almost never used.

'Probably.' But there's no reason to suppose it exists at all other than two characters making threats.

You mis out the bit '[notfiring] at the pod carrying R2 and C3PO'.

What difference does it make who was in the pod?

At least phasers can kill people and blow holes in rocks where blasters seem to bounce of of metal surfaces. (Or the packing crates are magic:p )

And blow up massive, thick metal doors inside the Death Star, and smash up a concrete docking bay...

If it wasn't on maximum setting it would again be capable of killing a person. We even seen them kill people, so it doesn't really matter on how it affects other materials.

That doesn't mean the setting used to melt rock in that episode could have killed a person, hence the supposed 'evidence' of wide-beam kill setting is nothing of the sort.

HC Eredivisie

14-02-2006, 16:01

'Probably.' But there's no reason to suppose it exists at all other than two characters making threats.If it was never mentioned we would have no reason to assume it exists, but it is mentioned so it probably does exist.

What difference does it make who was in the pod?I wanted to gave a SW example of a character misstake but now I see it was a bit confusing.

And blow up massive, thick metal doors inside the Death Star, and smash up a concrete docking bay...Just like phasers can do.

That doesn't mean the setting used to melt rock in that episode could have killed a person, hence the supposed 'evidence' of wide-beam kill setting is nothing of the sort.Because a person heated to a few hundred degrees would still live... Fact is that that phaser was not set to a wide beam setting, so this does not say anything about the wide-beam kill setting.

Schnausages

14-02-2006, 16:29

Star Trek = Science Fiction (at least TOS was)

Star Wars = Futurisic Fantasy

So I like Star Trek.

Kerubia

15-02-2006, 01:13

'Probably.' But there's no reason to suppose it exists at all other than two characters making threats.

No, there's proof. My posts pointed it out perfectly, and nothing what you've posted refutes it even in the slightest. In addition, HC's posts have proven it too.

Further evidence--"The Vengeance Factor"[TNG3] . . . setting 7 is known to be able to produce temperatures in excess of 2,300 degrees. Even if we assume that, for some odd reason, Data suddenly decided to use Fahrenheit instead of Celsius, that would be sufficient to melt most rock. And, you know, humans. And others.

"Homefront"[DS9-4] . . . phasers on a widebeam setting could have their power setting altered.

No, it's no proof at all.

Yes, indeed it is. Lots of present day science is based on indirect proof.

Now as for why you don't see it used, it's the same principle why soldiers today don't (or aren't trained to) hold down the trigger until the clip is empty. No one denies that a wide-angle beam takes up more power--that's simple logic. It's also why you don't see Stormtroopers firing full-auto often.

Do you think X-Wings have an ejection system, or was the pilot giving the warning to the one who was hit simply panicking?

No, there isn't. Logic dictates that if such a capability existed it would have been used, specifically in episodes like 'Siege of AR-338' where it would have saved lives

Since you can't accept the proof, we'll just pretend that despite all of the evidence, there isn't a wide-beam kill setting.

They'll just kill you once you're paralyzed.

Mirkana

15-02-2006, 02:38

Star Trek hands down.

Reason: Star Trek has better science.

Lt_Cody

15-02-2006, 03:05

Star Trek hands down.

Reason: Star Trek has better science.

Yeah, Technobable really is "better science". "Quick, reroute the flux generator's overflow relays through the main deflector dish to cause a resonance vibration through subspace!" At least Wars doesn't come up with contrived reasons and butchers scientific terms to explain its tech.

Do you think X-Wings have an ejection system, or was the pilot giving the warning to the one who was hit simply panicking?
Ah, but there is proof an X-Wing has an ejection system:
Link (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/xwing/?id=eu)
In emergencies, the X-wing's Guidenhauser ejection seat can throw the pilot clear of the fighter. Separator charges blast the cockpit canopy free, and also launch the astromech unit from the socket.

Kerubia

15-02-2006, 03:10

Ah, but there is proof an X-Wing has an ejection system:
Link (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/xwing/?id=eu)

Just like there's proof that wide-beam phasers can be set to kill. The point I was making was that we don't need to see it to know it exists, especially when there's evidence for it.

Libersolum

15-02-2006, 03:20

neither, both are terrible

Dosuun

15-02-2006, 07:08

Why is it that the heroes, both in ST and SW, rarely seem to get hit by enemy fire? Why is it that it only takes one shot from a hero to kill a bad guy?

And why doesn't the Death Star just shoot a big hole through a planet rather than break it up? If it were a laser weapon as the name suggests, then it should have just shot a gaping hole through the planet. I have a CO2 laser and it doesn't make rocks or wood explode, it just burns things and makes holes.

Straughn

15-02-2006, 08:48

Yeah, Technobable really is "better science". "Quick, reroute the flux generator's overflow relays through the main deflector dish to cause a resonance vibration through subspace!" At least Wars doesn't come up with contrived reasons and butchers scientific terms to explain its tech.

Before the ubiquitous and psychologically syphillitic hand of Brannon Braga, Star Trek did a TREMENDOUS job for science. You shouldn't bark too much about that.
Why again is it James Doohan received an honorary degree in engineering? Look it up.

Straughn

15-02-2006, 08:49

Why is it that the heroes, both in ST and SW, rarely seem to get hit by enemy fire? Why is it that it only takes one shot from a hero to kill a bad guy?
It took three or four shots from Obi-Wan to kill General Grievous.

GMC Military Arms

15-02-2006, 08:49

If it was never mentioned we would have no reason to assume it exists, but it is mentioned so it probably does exist.

No, it was probably a bluff. Again, Occam's razor demands we don't multiply terms unnecessarily, and adding in 'it can be done but nobody bothers except in two situations where they're issuing threats, even when it would save people's lives' involves more terms than 'They were bluffing and it can't be done.'

Because a person heated to a few hundred degrees would still live...

But phasers don't heat humans, they make them disappear. We've seen Riker shoot a human with a phaser on full power. If it destroyed them by heating the sudden expansion of their body from solid to gas would have produced an explosion, and that's not what we saw. There's no vapour from someone killed by a phaser shot, so they don't vapourise by heating.

Phasers heat rock, they do not heat humans.

No, there's proof. My posts pointed it out perfectly, and nothing what you've posted refutes it even in the slightest. In addition, HC's posts have proven it too.

Shame you're trying to convince me of the validity of your point and not yourself, really. Nothing has been 'proven;' phasers may heat rock, but they do not operate by the same mechanism when used on kill settings against humans. If they did, someone hit by a phaser at high power would produce a high-pressure shockwave, and they don't.

The behaviour of phasers against rock is totally irrelevant to their behaviour against humans because of their bizarre mode of operation.

"Homefront"[DS9-4] . . . phasers on a widebeam setting could have their power setting altered.

That doesn't mean they can actually fire it at maximum power with the output set to wide, or that such a shot would produce a lethal effect before totally draining the phaser's power cell.

Now as for why you don't see it used, it's the same principle why soldiers today don't (or aren't trained to) hold down the trigger until the clip is empty. No one denies that a wide-angle beam takes up more power--that's simple logic. It's also why you don't see Stormtroopers firing full-auto often.

Right, and that's why no modern soldier would empty the magazine of his rifle, even with his back to the wall when he had nothing to lose by doing so and would save his own life.

Oh wait, that never happens.

Since you can't accept the proof, we'll just pretend that despite all of the evidence, there isn't a wide-beam kill setting.

There is no proof. There's slight circumstantial evidence that's overruled by the fact that we've never seen it used even when, as in 'Siege of AR-338,' it would have saved lives and ended the battle with minimal Federation casualties. Are you seriously telling me Federation soldiers would forget what their own weapons are capable of?

They'll just kill you once you're paralyzed.

Again, provided the stun setting works on Jedi, despite that we've seen plenty of powerful lifeforms it hasn't worked on. And provided any war between the Empire and the Federation is decided by who can burst into a particular room and stun everyone first.

And why doesn't the Death Star just shoot a big hole through a planet rather than break it up? If it were a laser weapon as the name suggests, then it should have just shot a gaping hole through the planet. I have a CO2 laser and it doesn't make rocks or wood explode, it just burns things and makes holes.

Turbolasers aren't lasers. You can tell because the bolts don't behave like laser weapons would.

Kerubia

15-02-2006, 23:15

No, it was probably a bluff.

There is no evidence it was a bluff. None at all. In fact, there's evidence of it being the truth.

But phasers don't heat humans,

Ridiculous.

The behaviour of phasers against rock is totally irrelevant to their behaviour against humans because of their bizarre mode of operation.

No.

That doesn't mean they can actually fire it at maximum power with the output set to wide, or that such a shot would produce a lethal effect before totally draining the phaser's power cell.

It doesn't have to fire at full power to kill.

There is no proof.

No proof that you're willing to accept.

There's slight circumstantial evidence that's overruled by the fact that we've never seen it used even when, as in 'Siege of AR-338,' it would have saved lives and ended the battle with minimal Federation casualties. Are you seriously telling me Federation soldiers would forget what their own weapons are capable of?

No, the evidence is rock-solid. It's said to exist in the universe, and no one contradicted Tuvok. It's obscene that you're willing to deny it after such evidence. If he was bluffing, it would've been called.

I'm telling you the writers forgot to put it in, much like force grabbing weapons in many of the big battles.

That you can't accept this is truly astonishing. Are you that much of a Star Wars fan that you doubt a simple obvious in the Trekkie world?

Dosuun

15-02-2006, 23:58

Turbolasers aren't lasers. You can tell because the bolts don't behave like laser weapons would.
I wasn't talking about the turbo lasers on the death star, I meant the superlaser that was used to blow up a planet.

One thing that gets me in both ST and SW is why anyone would bother sending in bround personel when you could just fire on a planet from orbit and obliterate an opposing force that way. You'd think it'd make more sense in ST to just wide-beam stun enemy forces from orbit and take prisoners or kill them some other way.

Jordaxia

16-02-2006, 00:00

I wasn't talking about the turbo lasers on the death star, I meant the superlaser that was used to blow up a planet.

That's not a laser either. Firstly, it still doesn't move at C, and secondly, it focuses out of the emitter. lasers don't combine and reflect off of each other in a super beam when they hit at a roughly 45? degree angle...

Minoriteeburg

16-02-2006, 00:01

This war between Star Wars and Star Trek fans will be as epic as the stories their defending.

Dosuun

16-02-2006, 00:09

That's not a laser either. Firstly, it still doesn't move at C, and secondly, it focuses out of the emitter. lasers don't combine and reflect off of each other in a super beam when they hit at a roughly 45? degree angle...
I know. What I want to know is why they called it a laser? It doesn't act like a laser at all. If it were a laser in a vacuum then we shouldn't even see it. And why do we hear weapons and explosions in either ST or SW? It doesn't make sense!

GMC Military Arms

16-02-2006, 08:22

There is no evidence it was a bluff. None at all. In fact, there's evidence of it being the truth.

No, there isn't. That evidence would be visual proof of people being killed with the wide-beam setting. There's none, anywhere.

The evidence it was a bluff is the nonexistence of external evidence of the capability. If it could be done, it would have been at some other point, specifically at AR-338 where the Federation soldiers could have slaughtered the Jem'Hadar with little to no casualties on their side. Again, you can't tell me a soldier wouldn't be familiar with the capabilities of his or her weapon.

Ridiculous.

Yes, phasers are ridiculous. But you can't rapidly heat up a body composed of mostly water to the point it totally vanishes without producing any vapour or a high-pressure shockwave. Therefore, phasers cannot possibly destroy humans by heating them.

It doesn't have to fire at full power to kill.

So? My argument is that it can't fire on wide-beam and still kill people, because there's no visual evidence of this capability.

No proof that you're willing to accept.

No proof whatsoever. There's a few lines of dialog that vaguely imply it, and those are of very dubious origin: a possessed man and a delusional man, respectively.

No, the evidence is rock-solid. It's said to exist in the universe, and no one contradicted Tuvok. It's obscene that you're willing to deny it after such evidence. If he was bluffing, it would've been called.

You keep harping on about 'so much evidence,' but there isn't any worthwhile evidence at all. Tuvok says he can do it and nobody contradicts him because he's pointing a gun at them. Of course they didn't contradict a desperate armed man in that situation, that's a fantastic way to get yourself put in the hurt locker, and even if they knew he couldn't kill them all at once, they knew very well he could stun them all again and then kill them one at a time. Calling his bluff would still have ended with him killing them all, so they kept quiet. Riker was likewise pointing a gun at the people he was talking to; he was also in a delusional state, as he was being psychologically tortured by the Tilonians and couldn't separate reality from hallucination, so his statement is even worse as evidence.

'A desperate armed man said it' or 'a delusional armed man said it' [!] is not rock-solid evidence, it's poor quality implication. If a guy walks into a bank with a revolver and says he'll kill everyone if anyone makes a move and nobody contradicts him, that doesn't show that his revolver can hold enough bullets to kill everyone in the bank or that it's capable of fully automatic fire. Rock-solid is visual evidence of the capability being used, and you can't produce any.

Put simply: Tuvok was bluffing. Nobody called his bluff because he still had the means to kill them all regardless. Riker was bluffing, and delusional to boot. This explains why there's no visual evidence, and why nobody has ever even suggested doing it in combat: it's because it can't be done. Your explanation offers no reason for the lack of visual evidence; you have to step outside suspension of disbelief and claim the writers 'forgot.' Your explanation is therefore inferior because it violates the principles of logical parsimony and suspension of disbelief.

I'm telling you the writers forgot to put it in, much like force grabbing weapons in many of the big battles.

Fails at suspension of disbelief. If we had never seen anyone force-grab anything and the Emperor had threatened to do it twice, would you accept that the ability existed at all?

Also, why would the Jedi Force-grab weapons in large-scale combat? By the time you've grabbed one weapon three other people have shot you for it. In large-scale combat, there's simply too many weapons being fired to make it a valid or useful tactic most of the time.

And if we're going to go down this road at all, given the weight of evidence [two instances of people mentioning it without doing it versus the entire rest of three series], is it not far more likely that the writers of those two episodes forgot Phasers could not be set to wide-beam kill settings?

That you can't accept this is truly astonishing. Are you that much of a Star Wars fan that you doubt a simple obvious in the Trekkie world?

'A simple obvious?' Aside from any points about the missing words in that sentence, it is neither simple or obvious. It has never been used at all in any situation. You can't show me any visual evidence, so you're stuck repeating that it's 'obvious' even though it's only implied by two quotes from characters issuing threats at gunpoint, in three entire series set in the TNG universe. In all those hundreds of hours, nobody's thought to use this incredibly useful ability, and that very strongly suggests they didn't use it because it cannot be used.

I know. What I want to know is why they called it a laser? It doesn't act like a laser at all. If it were a laser in a vacuum then we shouldn't even see it.

Why is a phaser rifle called a 'rifle?' It doesn't have a rifled barrel, does it?

And why do we hear weapons and explosions in either ST or SW? It doesn't make sense!

Because nobody would watch a TV series or movie where half the scenes were totally silent.

Straughn

16-02-2006, 08:25

This war between Star Wars and Star Trek fans will be as epic as the stories their defending.
F*CKING seconded. *nods emphatically*

EDIT: This thread is more regular than my bowel movements! NO JOKE!

HC Eredivisie

16-02-2006, 15:50

Yes, phasers are ridiculous. But you can't rapidly heat up a body composed of mostly water to the point it totally vanishes without producing any vapour or a high-pressure shockwave. Therefore, phasers cannot possibly destroy humans by heating them.[Phasers shift the matter to another dimension or something. Anyway, they just work that way.

[quote]If it could be done, it would have been at some other point, specifically at AR-338 where the Federation soldiers could have slaughtered the Jem'Hadar with little to no casualties on their side. Again, you can't tell me a soldier wouldn't be familiar with the capabilities of his or her weapon.The Feds could have used the photon grenades seen in TOS but they didn't use those either.

So? My argument is that it can't fire on wide-beam and still kill people, because there's no visual evidence of this capability.I could blow up buildings on the highest setting, so it might probably be capalbe of killing persons.:rolleyes:

And if we're going to go down this road at all, given the weight of evidence [two instances of people mentioning it without doing it versus the entire rest of three series], is it not far more likely that the writers of those two episodes forgot Phasers could not be set to wide-beam kill settings?It was mentioned in TNG and VOY, TOS aired years before them, Enterprise didn't use phasers so only DS9 could have mentioned it. (not important side note: in TOS they used the ships phasers to stun people in a city).

Why is a phaser rifle called a 'rifle?' It doesn't have a rifled barrel, does it?Probably a left over from the modern day word 'rifle', perhaps the 'laser' in SW has that too.

Because nobody would watch a TV series or movie where half the scenes were totally silent.Almost all SF series have sound in space.:D

Kerubia

16-02-2006, 18:25

I could blow up buildings on the highest setting, so it might probably be capalbe of killing persons.

Allow me to guess at the response:

It somehow can destroy those buildings, but people are immune to it. Somehow.

But you can't rapidly heat up a body composed of mostly water to the point it totally vanishes without producing any vapour or a high-pressure shockwave. Therefore, phasers cannot possibly destroy humans by heating them.

We forgive these errors in science. Stormtrooper armor is airtight, but in the following pic, you'll see something quite strange . . .

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Episodes/TESB/TESB-handrop-clips1.jpg

Airtight? That picture would suggest otherwise, but we all forgive it and conclude that the armor is indeed airtight.

Gorna

17-02-2006, 02:43

star trek wins 100%. Q thinks of the human race as pets! and whould not let them be harmed.

Dosuun

17-02-2006, 05:12

Jordaxia

17-02-2006, 05:49

Even if there is no wide-beam kill, what's stopping somebody from just using a wide-beam stun to knock someone out then walk up and kill them? And don't tell me force users can resist being stunned because Leia was taken down by one shot from a blaster set to stun.

I'd like to know why any sane military commander in either ST or SW would send troops to die needlessly on a battlefield when they could just do an orbital bombardment. That would make so much more sense and save a lot more lives than a wide-beam kill from troops on the ground.

And why did the rebels set up an easily destroyed sheild generator OUTSIDE THE SHEILD? If it was in the sheild, then how did the walkers get through? If they didn't, then how could they destroy it when a destroyer in orbit couldn't?

Everything you see in ST, SW, and just about every other sci-fi or futuristic fantasy is done to help tell the story. What we see in those movies and shows doesn't have to follow any real-world rules, it just has to look good and help tell a story.

The walkers on Hoth deploy underneath a shield. it's not a planetary shield, it's a theatre shield, and has been shown on SW before (episode 1) slow moving objects can move through shields. The AT/ATs passed through the shield bubble, found the shield generators, and took them down.

And a wide beam stun setting would be about as useful as say... a flashbang, or even a regular grenade. in fact, a regular grenade could be more useful.

And SW has standard grenades, in the guise of thermal detonators.

Straughn

17-02-2006, 06:09

Everything you see in ST, SW, and just about every other sci-fi or futuristic fantasy is done to help tell the story. What we see in those movies and shows doesn't have to follow any real-world rules, it just has to look good and help tell a story.
Sh! SHHHHH!!
Moddamn, whaddya want to do, KILL this thread?
Don't brandish that kind of sensibility!

Jordaxia

17-02-2006, 06:12

Sh! SHHHHH!!
Moddamn, whaddya want to do, KILL this thread?
Don't brandish that kind of sensibility!

pfft, such rebuttals are conveniently handled with "suspension of disbelief"

you just have to pretend it isn't. the debate is much more fun that way.

Lt_Cody

17-02-2006, 06:18

Even if there is no wide-beam kill, what's stopping somebody from just using a wide-beam stun to knock someone out then walk up and kill them? And don't tell me force users can resist being stunned because Leia was taken down by one shot from a blaster set to stun.
Yeah, and Leia is a real good indicator of what a fully-trained Jedi can do...:rolleyes:

I'd like to know why any sane military commander in either ST or SW would send troops to die needlessly on a battlefield when they could just do an orbital bombardment. That would make so much more sense and save a lot more lives than a wide-beam kill from troops on the ground.
Because if you want to conquer territory you have to put boots on the ground. Besides, Wars has theater shields that prevent orbital bombardment, so you have to engage on the ground.

And why did the rebels set up an easily destroyed sheild generator OUTSIDE THE SHEILD? If it was in the sheild, then how did the walkers get through? If they didn't, then how could they destroy it when a destroyer in orbit couldn't?
Wrong, it was inside the shield, which only covered a small area of the planet. Imps land outside the shield, the slow-moving, heavily-armored Walkers penetrate it, march over to the generator and blast it.

Everything you see in ST, SW, and just about every other sci-fi or futuristic fantasy is done to help tell the story. What we see in those movies and shows doesn't have to follow any real-world rules, it just has to look good and help tell a story.
Do you admit that, for instances, if a man in one of these sci-fi settings was six feet tall one day, he'd still be six feet tall the next?

Yes? Then real-world rules still apply, unless there's a specific instances where they don't, i.e. FTL travel. Ergo, if Imperial weapons put out X amount of energy while Federation shields can only soak up Y amount of energy, then Imperial weapons will penetrate the shields and destroy the ship. It's all simple if you're willing to have a little fun debating :D

Straughn

17-02-2006, 06:19

pfft, such rebuttals are conveniently handled with "suspension of disbelief"

you just have to pretend it isn't. the debate is much more fun that way.
Well, my lack of articulate etiquette in this thread's nature is directly proportionate to the brevity of my posts.

Jordaxia

17-02-2006, 06:21

Well, my lack of articulate etiquette in this thread's nature is directly proportionate to the brevity of my posts.

...it's 5:21am. I've no idea WHAT that means right now. Please call again later. :p

Straughn

17-02-2006, 06:40

...it's 5:21am. I've no idea WHAT that means right now. Please call again later. :p
Uhm ... word. ....?
:D

Dosuun

17-02-2006, 06:48

if Imperial weapons put out X amount of energy while Federation shields can only soak up Y amount of energy, then Imperial weapons will penetrate the shields and destroy the ship. It's all simple if you're willing to have a little fun debating :D

If Federation weapons put out X amount of energy while Imperial ray sheilds can only soak up Y amount of energy and can't block torpedoes, then Federation weapons will penetrate the sheilds and destroy the ship. It's all simple if you're willing to have a little fun debating :D

I'd love to see how TIEs stand up to a little point defense phaser fire. It usually only takes a hit or two before they go to pieces.

The Skitz

17-02-2006, 07:01

Look at my flag, then make a wild guess at what I might pick...:D I actually dressed up when the movie came out. XD
More for fun, than because I'm some ultra-die-hard-fanatic. & scaring people was good to.

I like Star Wars a lot better. I guess it's because they mix a bit of fantasy element (lighsabers/swords, the whole jedi organisation, force/magic, cool clothes etc) in with the the ton of sci-fi.

& Darth Vader rocks.

Interesting trivia: The name of my nation (full name- title included) is based of a Star Wars-Empire mockery me & some friends at school made up...
Heh heh heh...

Lt_Cody

17-02-2006, 07:04

If Federation weapons put out X amount of energy while Imperial ray sheilds can only soak up Y amount of energy and can't block torpedoes, then Federation weapons will penetrate the sheilds and destroy the ship. It's all simple if you're willing to have a little fun debating :D
Ah, but we know for a fact that Imp weapons > Fed shields :D

I'd love to see how TIEs stand up to a little point defense phaser fire. It usually only takes a hit or two before they go to pieces.
If you can hit them, and while you're wasting time on the TIEs the ISD over there just blasted you into atoms :)

Dosuun

17-02-2006, 07:07

Well my imaginary watsit can beat up your imaginary watsit! That's where these vs debates always seem to end up, and this one is dangerously close.

I do have a serious question to ask though: Why is it always the feds v the imps? Why not the Borg v the Empire? Or Q v the Empire?

Lt_Cody

17-02-2006, 07:28

Dosuun

17-02-2006, 07:47

Lacadaemon

17-02-2006, 07:53

How does the puny humanoid Empire best the Borg? The Borg have assimilated thousands of species, millions of worlds. Countless lives have been lost the Borg one way or another. Only a few races have ever stood up to the Borg successfully. You'll understand if I have my doubts about an Empire that still uses little balls of ionized gas as weapons.

Dude. They'd just use the death star or something. That shit can blow up a planet, never mind a borg cube.

And they have darth vader.

Jordaxia

17-02-2006, 07:58

How does the puny humanoid Empire best the Borg? The Borg have assimilated thousands of species, millions of worlds. Countless lives have been lost the Borg one way or another. Only a few races have ever stood up to the Borg successfully. You'll understand if I have my doubts about an Empire that still uses little balls of ionized gas as weapons.

the... puny? humanoid empire? with 12 million systems to its name? the borg owns a portion of a quadrant of the galaxy. compared to the GALACTIC empire.
Who's puny now? Remember the death star is built in months and can smash a planet with ease.

Dosuun

17-02-2006, 08:05

Ah yes, the Death Star with it's big "laser" weapon. Would that be the DS that was blown up by a fighter or the DS that was blown up by a freighter?

Well, I'm signing off for the night. See ya.

Lacadaemon

17-02-2006, 08:12

Ah yes, the Death Star with it's big "laser" weapon. Would that be the DS that was blown up by a fighter or the DS that was blown up by a freighter?

Does the borg have fighters? Does the Borg have Freighters? Do the borg have chewbacca or lando? No. They have cubes.

Case closed.

Anyway, the only reason why the borg looked so tough is because they were fighting the federation, which always seemed to be preparing for Mr. Data's oboe concert and not war.

Straughn

17-02-2006, 08:17

Empire still beats the Borg, Q is just a desperate attempt by Trekkies to find someone who can beat Star Wars
I'll start with :rolleyes: but i think there's a lot of other readers who got there a few pages ago. Not about this post in particular, but how far this thread's gone.

NOT A PERSONAL BIAS. A thought ...

If Palpatine (Sidious) was able to obfuscate against people whose very communal integrity was to note the high and low points of their philosophy, that would make a significant argument indeed in favour of Palpatine being able to stupify a large part of Starfleet into blowing themselves up out of ignorance.
However, given the U.S.S. Relativity and its mission (and possible compromise/alteration of charter), they would insure two different timelines .. one where ST obviously won, and at the same time, one where SW obviously won.
Problem solved. Besides, there's still Spock's Universe to contend with on occasion.

GMC Military Arms

17-02-2006, 08:31

Allow me to guess at the response:

It somehow can destroy those buildings, but people are immune to it. Somehow.

Firstly, 'it can destroy buildings on the highest setting' was Riker in a delusional state threatening people, again. He didn't know the size or composition of the building, and since he was hallucinating for all he knew he could have been on a starship, in a cave or outdoors. It was a threat, and he didn't have the information available to him for it to be anything more.

Second, we've seen Riker shoot someone with a phaser set to level 16 ["The Vengeance Factor"], from close range. Riker is still alive afterwards and the blast [or rather lack of one] doesn't even damage the room they're in, so obviously it does not have the same destructive effects against living tissue.

You can't argue that a phaser would have devastating explosive effects against human tissue when we've seen them fired at humans on full power without any such effect. Either Phaser effects are solely dependant on the composition of the target [as I've been saying], or Phasers are so pathetically weak that even on maximum power they can only make a small woman disappear with no collateral damage whatsoever. Take your pick.

We forgive these errors in science. Stormtrooper armor is airtight, but in the following pic, you'll see something quite strange . . .

They look terrible and you can barely make out anything? Seriously, what the hell has this got to do with the very literal fact that in Trek canon nobody in their right mind has ever claimed a wide-beam kill setting existed, ever? Even if you have some kind of point there, you can't disprove the nonexistence of wide-beam kill settings by pointing out an error in Star Wars. Red Herring.

New Old Lompoc

17-02-2006, 08:49

GMC Military Arms

17-02-2006, 09:27

3. No away team was ever captured by spear -wielding teddy bears

You could reply that no Star Wars ship has even been threatened with destruction by rampantly breeding Furbies or Wesley Crusher's school science project.

5. It took the entire Starfleet, concentrating fire on a single spot, to destroy a Borg Cube: it took only a pod-racer from Tatooine to destroy the Death Star...Twice

Um...Anakin Skywalker didn't destroy the Death Star either time. Someone ought to check their sources, there.

6. Three words: Jar-Jar Binks

This coming from the universe that gave us Luxwana Troi, Nog, Ezri Dax, Kira, Neelix, Janeway, Worf and Wesley Crusher?

8. One letter: ''Q''

Yes, if he isn't busy threatening to destroy the human race he's sure to help them!

10. Three words; Seven of Nine

Three other words: 'Versus The Rock.' Oh dear...

Leet h4x0rz

17-02-2006, 09:40

I believe I can solve this once and for all....

HK-47

The ancient Republic

17-02-2006, 09:58

fromThe House of Kiln, Jesters to the Klingon Empire (http://klingonjesters.org/id19.htm)

Top 10 reasons
Star Trek is better than Star Wars
1. Star Trek movies run in chronological order, Star Wars chapter 1 was the fourth movie

2. Star Wars ships can only do light-speed. Even Pakled freighters can make warp 6
yeah...and starfleet takes YEARS to travel less than a quadrant in a solarsystem, a distance most ships in SW travel within a few hours...

4. Two words: No Helmets
9 words: Red shirts and not even armor on your "away team"
5. It took the entire Starfleet, concentrating fire on a single spot, to destroy a Borg Cube: it took only a pod-racer from Tatooine to destroy the Death Star...Twice
It would only take 1 stardestroyer to mop up the entire starfleet, and your borg-cube...besides, try taking on the suncrusher if you dare...
6. Three words: Jar-Jar Binks
1 word: Nelix
7. Star Wars is past...We are the future
And you still suck in comparrison...
8. One letter: ''Q''
The Force
9. Princess Leia was the only decent looking women in the SW galaxy. Every Starfleet vessel is loaded with them
Oola, Padme, Dorme, Mara Jade, Winter, Commander Yysaard...to name some...
10. Three words; Seven of Nine[/quote]
Three words; Leia in bikini

Calendor

17-02-2006, 10:11

I believe I can solve this once and for all....

HK-47

Statement: Well played master. Thats the way to tell the meatbags master! Charging weapons, just in case. This should be fun!

The ancient Republic

17-02-2006, 10:15

[Unnecessary Adendum]: Let's open fire and put an end to hostilities, Master.
:D

BackwoodsSquatches

17-02-2006, 10:27

2. Star Wars ships can only do light-speed. Even Pakled freighters can make warp 6

"She'll do .5 past lightspeed."
-Han Solo, A New Hope.

Also, Hyperspace speeds are way past lightspeed. Thats how you can travel from one end of a galaxy to the other in several hours.

The Phoenix Milita

17-02-2006, 10:47

Star trek because its a more completly developed video! universe

AND STAR WARS USES LASERS!! LASERS DO NOT DAMAGE STAR TREK STUFF HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAA :gundge:

GMC Military Arms

17-02-2006, 11:41

AND STAR WARS USES LASERS!! LASERS DO NOT DAMAGE STAR TREK STUFF HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAA

Except turbolasers aren't lasers. And that line was based on Picard viewing a primative vessel, it's ridiculous to take it as meaning that no laser, regardless of power, could ever damage a Trek vessel. Especially since we've seen the opposite on-screen.

The Shattered Shield

17-02-2006, 11:55

I like both star trek and star wars. i can't pick one over the other.

I still think the name HK-47 was a lame choice for that robot (but other than that i don't have a problem with it).

The Phoenix Milita

17-02-2006, 13:07

Except turbolasers aren't lasers. And that line was based on Picard viewing a primative vessel, it's ridiculous to take it as meaning that no laser, regardless of power, could ever damage a Trek vessel. Especially since we've seen the opposite on-screen.
mirror > laser no matter how powerful

if a turbo laser isnt a laser what is it?

GMC Military Arms

17-02-2006, 13:18

if a turbo laser isnt a laser what is it?

Largely believed to be some kind of particle weapon. You can tell they aren't lasers because they travel slower than light, glow in vacuum and do other things lasers don't.

Skinny87

17-02-2006, 13:25

As much as it hurts to say this, being a die-hard Trekkie, SW technology is far more numerous and powerful, especially in regards to ground forces. SW would win against the Federation and most races.

That said, however, the Borg and Species 8472 would give you a run for your money.

GMC Military Arms

17-02-2006, 13:29

That said, however, the Borg and Species 8472 would give you a run for your money.

Borg are easy...Kill those big 'Unimatrix' things and they're toast. Not difficult for an Empire with superweapons out the wazoo [the Galaxy Gun or Death Stars would work nicely.]

8472...Well, 'kill a half dozen of them' appears to be enough to get rid of them.

Skinny87

17-02-2006, 13:31

Borg are easy...Kill those big 'Unimatrix' things and they're toast. Not difficult for an Empire with superweapons out the wazoo [the Galaxy Gun or Death Stars would work nicely.]

8472...Well, 'kill a half dozen of them' appears to be enough to get rid of them.

Yeah...well...

Data is far better than CP30!

*Scarpers*

GMC Military Arms

17-02-2006, 13:32

Data is far better than CP30!

Yes, but C3P0 is far camper than Data!

HC Eredivisie

17-02-2006, 17:10

fromThe House of Kiln, Jesters to the Klingon Empire (http://klingonjesters.org/id19.htm)

Top 10 reasons
Star Trek is better than Star Wars
1. Star Trek movies run in chronological order, Star Wars chapter 1 was the fourth movie
2. Star Wars ships can only do light-speed. Even Pakled freighters can make warp 6
3. No away team was ever captured by spear -wielding teddy bears
4. Two words: No Helmets
5. It took the entire Starfleet, concentrating fire on a single spot, to destroy a Borg Cube: it took only a pod-racer from Tatooine to destroy the Death Star...Twice
6. Three words: Jar-Jar Binks
7. Star Wars is past...We are the future
8. One letter: ''Q''
9. Princess Leia was the only decent looking women in the SW galaxy. Every Starfleet vessel is loaded with them
10. Three words; Seven of Nine

1: Like that matters
2: Probably a different light speed:p
3: Got a point there
4: What?
5: But he was Force guided
6: Which is bad
7: 'Galaxy far, far away'
8: Mr T.
9: That's just one's opinion
10: That are five words:D

GMC: Species 8472 ran because the Borg could suddenly assimilate them. Besides, they destroyed planets with 9 ships while SW needs a giant base (and the Xindi did that with a much smaller one;) )

Lt_Cody

17-02-2006, 18:03

mirror > laser no matter how powerful
You, sire, are an idiot. I suggest you go look up the No Limits fallacy and check up on the laws of thermodynamics while you're at it.

if a turbo laser isnt a laser what is it?
An energy weapon of some kind. Besides, going by your logic a Photon torpedo is made up of photons, Quantum torpedos are incredibly small, and a tri-cobalt device fires a collect of rocks at the enemy :D

Lt_Cody

17-02-2006, 18:09

1. Star Trek movies run in chronological order, Star Wars chapter 1 was the fourth movie
So?
2. Star Wars ships can only do light-speed. Even Pakled freighters can make warp 6
SW ships can travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in a matter of days, hours even. It would take Voyager 70 years to do the same. You tell me which is faster.
3. No away team was ever captured by spear -wielding teddy bears
But they have been eaten by plants, choked by poison gas, killed by a oil monster, taken prisoner hundreds of times...
4. Two words: No Helmets
Helmets protect your head,
5. It took the entire Starfleet, concentrating fire on a single spot, to destroy a Borg Cube: it took only a pod-racer from Tatooine to destroy the Death Star...Twice
That Death Star could take on the combined power of every Trek race and win, and about the only people who could stop it are Q, and they're too busy having fun watching the Feds get their asses kicked to do anything about it :D

HC Eredivisie

17-02-2006, 21:01

That Death Star could take on the combined power of every Trek race and win, and about the only people who could stop it are Q, and they're too busy having fun watching the Feds get their asses kicked to do anything about it :D
Well, no. In DS9 we saw a Cardassian/Romulan attacking the Founder Homeworld, where they made some craters (~50 kms across, I think) by firing torpedoes and disruptors. They could just fire from the edge of their weapons range and slowly break apart the DS. The DS might fire it's superlaser but cannot take apart the enire attaking fleet at once (unless they come in in one row). The turbolasers on the DS aren't really a problem since the fleet can stay out of their range (it's much harder for the DS to hit the fleet than it is for the fleet to hit the DS because of it's massive size).

Lt_Cody

17-02-2006, 21:44

Well, no. In DS9 we saw a Cardassian/Romulan attacking the Founder Homeworld, where they made some craters (~50 kms across, I think) by firing torpedoes and disruptors. They could just fire from the edge of their weapons range and slowly break apart the DS. The DS might fire it's superlaser but cannot take apart the enire attaking fleet at once (unless they come in in one row). The turbolasers on the DS aren't really a problem since the fleet can stay out of their range (it's much harder for the DS to hit the fleet than it is for the fleet to hit the DS because of it's massive size).

What, you mean these?
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6603/tdicpic4cc.jpg

Those aren't even explosions, just weird brown shockwaves with none of the affects one associates with large-yeild weaponry. They were expecting to destroy only 30% of the planet's crust after a ten-hour bombardment, a single ISD can destroy an entire planet's crust in under an hour or two. As for the turbolaser ranges, according to the latest books they have a range of up to 8 light-minutes, so that wont be a problem ;)

Lt_Cody

17-02-2006, 21:47

Now, you want an example of what a proper explosion would be like...
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/thorironhammer/BlastCityXXXXX.jpg
:D

Turhal

17-02-2006, 21:54

I can't judge fairly because the only star trek series I have access to is Enterprise. (I don't have cable.) I do have, however, every Star Wars movie, and I enjoy them far more than the star trek enterprise series. Honestly, when I watch something like this, I watch it for the action, fighting, excitement, glorious space battles, etc. not to watch a bunch of "babes" and sex and stuff. That's not what it's about! Plus the CGI in star trek enterprise is laughable.

HC Eredivisie

17-02-2006, 22:10

What, you mean these?
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6603/tdicpic4cc.jpg

Those aren't even explosions, just weird brown shockwaves with none of the affects one associates with large-yeild weaponry. They were expecting to destroy only 30% of the planet's crust after a ten-hour bombardment, a single ISD can destroy an entire planet's crust in under an hour or two. As for the turbolaser ranges, according to the latest books they have a range of up to 8 light-minutes, so that wont be a problem ;)

Yes, these http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg
the shockwavecraterthinghy looks about the size of the one you posted in your second post but I do not know the size of the Founder planet. Anyway, the DS is smaller so it wouldn't be able to withstand thesame force (and when first aiming for the superlaser you don't have to worry about that one anymore.)
Further, they destroyed 30% of the crust in the opening volly (I don't know the timeframe of the entire attack but the opening volly problay lasted only a minute or so).

Are this your 8 lightminutes:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Episodes/ANH/ANH92232.jpg
Han says the T-fighter is out of range, although we can clearly see it, the Imps problaby have better targeting sensors but not by an 1000000% margin:p

But you were talking about the DS vs all of ST. Let's take a Federation fleet from DS9 (100 ships, various classes) and the DS. I say the Fed fleet wins, just because they can concentrate all their firepower on the DS, but the DS has to spread it's fire.

Kerubia

17-02-2006, 22:43

Someone find a link that maps out the SW galaxy for me.

Kerubia

17-02-2006, 22:46

Seriously, what the hell has this got to do with the very literal fact that in Trek canon nobody in their right mind has ever claimed a wide-beam kill setting existed

Except for the very literal fact that Tuvok claimed it, and no one contradicted him.

Firstly, 'it can destroy buildings on the highest setting' was Riker in a delusional state threatening people, again. He didn't know the size or composition of the building, and since he was hallucinating for all he knew he could have been on a starship, in a cave or outdoors. It was a threat, and he didn't have the information available to him for it to be anything more.

Troi makes it clear in that episode that he was latching onto real life memories and elements. It was no mere threat. It was a real one.

Lt_Cody

17-02-2006, 23:23

Yes, these http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg
Wow, you added the actual weapons fire. That makes all the difference...:rolleyes:
So tell me, if these are impressive explosions as you claim, where are the fireballs? Hugh plumes of vaporized materials? The large pic I posted is what we should see if Trek ships could put out the same amount of energy as Wars ships and decided to bombard a planet.
Anyway, the DS is smaller so it wouldn't be able to withstand thesame force (and when first aiming for the superlaser you don't have to worry about that one anymore.)
Honestly, can you explain the logic behind this "Oh, it looks purty so it MUST be able to destroy the DS!!!!!" The Death Star could defeat entire fleets of ships, ships that can put out more energy in their shots then entire Starfleet armadas produce. How 20 measly ships are even going to penetrate its shields, must less take out the Superlaser or the thousands of Turbolasers, before the DS vaporizes them all would be interesting to listen to.

Further, they destroyed 30% of the crust in the opening volly (I don't know the timeframe of the entire attack but the opening volly problay lasted only a minute or so).
That's because their sensors were being fooled, in the breifing they said the bombardment would take half a day to complete for only 30%. And this is a high-end event, remember in Pegasus where the E-D wasn't sure if they could destroy a normal 5km asteriod?

Are this your 8 lightminutes:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Episodes/ANH/ANH92232.jpg
Ah yes, and when was the last time the Falcon was armed with military-grade capital ship Turbolasers?:rolleyes:
And I see you visit Scooter's site for your "info" *cough cough*, the page you stole that pic from can easily be answered here (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/MoO/SW-Range.html)

But you were talking about the DS vs all of ST. Let's take a Federation fleet from DS9 (100 ships, various classes) and the DS. I say the Fed fleet wins, just because they can concentrate all their firepower on the DS, but the DS has to spread it's fire.
What? The DS would have at least 100 Turbolasers for each of those ships, and just one hit will vaporize them. It will have no problem blasting your "fleet" before they even make a dent in the shields.

Kerubia

17-02-2006, 23:42

Wow, you added the actual weapons fire. That makes all the difference...:rolleyes:
So tell me, if these are impressive explosions as you claim, where are the fireballs? Hugh plumes of vaporized materials? The large pic I posted is what we should see if Trek ships could put out the same amount of energy as Wars ships and decided to bombard a planet.

Honestly, can you explain the logic behind this "Oh, it looks purty so it MUST be able to destroy the DS!!!!!" The Death Star could defeat entire fleets of ships, ships that can put out more energy in their shots then entire Starfleet armadas produce. How 20 measly ships are even going to penetrate its shields, must less take out the Superlaser or the thousands of Turbolasers, before the DS vaporizes them all would be interesting to listen to.

That's because their sensors were being fooled, in the breifing they said the bombardment would take half a day to complete for only 30%. And this is a high-end event, remember in Pegasus where the E-D wasn't sure if they could destroy a normal 5km asteriod?

Ah yes, and when was the last time the Falcon was armed with military-grade capital ship Turbolasers?:rolleyes:
And I see you visit Scooter's site for your "info" *cough cough*, the page you stole that pic from can easily be answered here (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/MoO/SW-Range.html)

What? The DS would have at least 100 Turbolasers for each of those ships, and just one hit will vaporize them. It will have no problem blasting your "fleet" before they even make a dent in the shields.

http://www.stardestroyer.net + http://www.st-v-sw.net =

http://www.freewebs.com/golaniv/catfighting.bmp

Dosuun

18-02-2006, 04:17

I have two words for anyone who thinks SW can beat ST: Charlie Evans

"Growing up isn't so much. I'm not a man and I can do anything!" And he could. He could make people 'go away' or make things. He destoryed one ship with a nothing but a thought because the crew didn't like him. He could destroy a whole fleet if he wanted.

[NS]Nation of Quebec

18-02-2006, 04:30

I like both, but I'm more of a Trekkie than I am a Star Wars fan.

GMC Military Arms

18-02-2006, 08:21

Except for the very literal fact that Tuvok claimed it, and no one contradicted him.

Which, as I said, is because he could have killed them anyway, even though he was wrong. You have no rebuttal to that, so you're simply trying to ignore it. Of the two times it's been claimed to be possible to simultaneously set a phaser to wide-beam and kill, one was a man posessed by an alien and the other was a delusional man who couldn't seperate fantasy from reality. Again, it is literally true that nobody in their right mind has ever claimed such a setting is possible.

Troi makes it clear in that episode that he was latching onto real life memories and elements. It was no mere threat. It was a real one.

Right, even though he saw a number of things that were 'wrong', he had no idea of the construction or size of the building he was in, and he was making a claim only ever made anywhere else by someone posessed by aliens, let's believe him anyway.

Riker could not possibly have had a chance to study the schematics of the building and its construction materials and evaluate them versus the maximum output of his phaser. He was bluffing. Troi's statement that he was latching on to real life in no way means that everything he said and did was exactly the same as real life, otherwise he wouldn't have seen the 'wrong' things that he did see.

Furthermore, if setting 16 destroyed buildings, it should have killed Picard and Worf when they used it in a confined space in 'Chain of Command,' and should have killed Riker and destroyed the whole room he was in in 'The Vengeance Factor.' Did that happen? It's pretty bizarre to try to counter two direct observations with a threat issued by a delusional man.

I have two words for anyone who thinks SW can beat ST: Charlie Evans

Yeah, I mean we saw how he saved Voyager, stopped the Dominion war and totally owned the Klingons in the Alternate Universe for daring to screw with the Federation...

Oh wait; as with Q, Wesley, Dowd and every other pseudo-omnipotent lifeform in Trek, he never bothered to use his powers to help the Federation.

HC Eredivisie

18-02-2006, 14:38

Wow, you added the actual weapons fire. That makes all the difference...:rolleyes: Duh, more pretty colours:p

So tell me, if these are impressive explosions as you claim, where are the fireballs? Hugh plumes of vaporized materials?Well, if it are the shockwaves you say it are, the plumes haven't formed yet.

The Death Star could defeat entire fleets of shipsThat's probalby why it was destroyed by a fighter, twice.

How 20 measly ships are even going to penetrate its shields, must less take out the Superlaser or the thousands of Turbolasers, before the DS vaporizes them all would be interesting to listen to.I don't recall shields on the DS, which can only fire on one target with it's superlaser anyway and most of the turbolasers would face other directions.

That's because their sensors were being fooled, in the breifing they said the bombardment would take half a day to complete for only 30%. And this is a high-end event, remember in Pegasus where the E-D wasn't sure if they could destroy a normal 5km asteriod?I'll have to take your word for the first part. For the second part, how do you know the asteriods size, it was never fully shown on screen.

And I see you visit Scooter's site for your "info" *cough cough*, the page you stole that pic from can easily be answered here (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/MoO/SW-Range.html)
I only see 'the calcs are wrong, he assumed something that is not true, blabla' but no counter calculations or something.

What? The DS would have at least 100 Turbolasers for each of those ships, and just one hit will vaporize them. It will have no problem blasting your "fleet" before they even make a dent in the shields.Other directions etc, although the Xindi weapon problaby could blow up the DS on its own.

Lt_Cody

18-02-2006, 21:15

Duh, more pretty colours:p

Well, if it are the shockwaves you say it are, the plumes haven't formed yet.
Umm, you can't have one without the other, and we see neither of those in any of the blasts.

That's probalby why it was destroyed by a fighter, twice.
Yeah, just like a single Borg cube was destroyed by Picard, twice :rolleyes: Put some thought into these plz

I don't recall shields on the DS, which can only fire on one target with it's superlaser anyway and most of the turbolasers would face other directions.
Umm, the turbolasers can easily traverse up to hit the Starfleet ship, and the spherical nature of the DS means even those with a limited arc of fire can still fire on other ships. As for shields,
Source: ANH novelization p.190

Something began to buffet his ship, almost as if he was back in his skyhopper again, wrestling with the unpredictable winds of Tatooine. ... "We're passing through their outer shields. Hold tight. Lock down freeze-floating controls and switch your own deflectors on, double front." ... "Cut the chatter, Blue Two," Blue Leader ordered. "Accelerate to attack velocity."

I'll have to take your word for the first part. For the second part, how do you know the asteriods size, it was never fully shown on screen.
It was, and scaling it compared to the E-D sitting next to it showed how large it was. Besides, even if it was more then 5 kilometers long, why would it take the Enterprise's entire compliment of 250 torpedos to destroy it, torpedos which you claim are capable of destroying a planet's crust?

I only see 'the calcs are wrong, he assumed something that is not true, blabla' but no counter calculations or something.
Why should counter-calcs be presented if your only trying to prove someone else's set is wrong?

Other directions etc, although the Xindi weapon problaby could blow up the DS on its own.
What other directions? Besides, the Xindi weapon has no defenses of its own, and it had to resort to a chain-reaction of the target itself to blow it up. Shields tend to stop those ;)

Kerubia

18-02-2006, 22:29

Of the two times it's been claimed to be possible to simultaneously set a phaser to wide-beam and kill
one was a man posessed by an alien

The alien was not out of its mind. In addition, it had access to all of Tuvok's intelligence. Further, no one on the bridge called his "bluff" despite the fact that they know about phaser tech. It's simply ludricrous to trying to pass it on as a bluff, especially when people who know all about phaser-tech act on it as true. Have you even seen that episode?

As you said, "you have no refutal to that, so you're simply ignoring it."

and the other was a delusional man who couldn't seperate fantasy from reality. . .Troi's statement that he was latching on to real life in no way means that everything he said and did was exactly the same as real life, otherwise he wouldn't have seen the 'wrong' things that he did see.

Once again, the supposed "bluff" was never called and was instead dealt with as if it were true.

Furthermore, if setting 16 destroyed buildings, it should have killed Picard and Worf when they used it in a confined space in 'Chain of Command,'

Well I haven't seen that episode, so I'll reply when I can find it.

Straughn

18-02-2006, 22:45

One, the reference was obviously to the infamous SNL skit.
Two, this thread is apparently a self-indulgent argument between four people, and for three posts that i added, IN THE NATURE OF THE TOPIC, there was no response whatsoever, as not to interrupt the argument the four of you are having.
That's not an issue of an amount of trolling.
It can also be reasonably deduced that there are a few William Shatner fans here, and it can just as easily be deduced that they knew what i was referring to, and that they might be interested to know there was (at the time) a biography on A&E.

Araphnelia

19-02-2006, 04:45

Star Wars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How Can You Even Compare Them??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Minoriteeburg

19-02-2006, 05:58

I will say one thing: If George Lucas woke up to Gene Roddenburys money he would kill himself

The Arabian Pennisula

19-02-2006, 06:09

Star Trek.

DATA FTW!!!!!!!:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 06:49

The alien was not out of its mind. In addition, it had access to all of Tuvok's intelligence. Further, no one on the bridge called his "bluff" despite the fact that they know about phaser tech. It's simply ludricrous to trying to pass it on as a bluff, especially when people who know all about phaser-tech act on it as true. Have you even seen that episode?

Yes. He could have killed them all, despite being wrong, so they kept their mouths shut. The fact that his phaser couldn't kill them all immediately doesn't mean he couldn't have stunned them and killed them one at a time. There was therefore no point to calling his bluff.

As you said, "you have no refutal to that, so you're simply ignoring it."

I do. He could have killed them all anyway, despite that he was wrong.

Once again, the supposed "bluff" was never called and was instead dealt with as if it were true.

See above, I'm getting a little tired of repeating myself.

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 07:17

Yes. He could have killed them all

He could've killed them all by pressing that little button, but he needed them.

The fact that his phaser couldn't kill them all immediately doesn't mean he couldn't have stunned them and killed them one at a time. There was therefore no point to calling his bluff.

No point in calling the bluff? Come on.

If he was bluffing, which there's no evidence in the slightest to suggest, someone would've said that he was lying about the phaser's setting. Then he would've said something along the lines of "But I can stun you and then kill you".

Why are you so, for lack of a better word, against wide-beam kill? If you think I'm going to say "because of wide-beam kill ST beats SW", I'm not.

Did it occur to you that, with Voyager appearing later than DS9, perhaps WBK (Wide-beam kill) was recently invented? I'm going to check the episode Operation Anhiliate to see how Kirk used his phasers there.

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 07:23

No point in calling the bluff? Come on.

If he was bluffing, which there's no evidence in the slightest to suggest, someone would've said that he was lying about the phaser's setting.

Why? What possible advantage would it gain them to make him angry and even more desperate? You don't call someone's bluff unless you gain some advantage by doing so: to use a Poker analogy, if someone claims to be holding a Royal Flush but only really has a Full House, there's no point to calling his bluff when you only have one pair.

And there's evidence, all right. The capability has never been used and the only other person to claim its existence was hallucinating.

Why are you so, for lack of a better word, against wide-beam kill?

Because we've never seen it and the only evidence we have of it is from a guy who was posessed by an alien and a guy who was hallucinating.

Did it occur to you that, with Voyager appearing later than DS9, perhaps WBK (Wide-beam kill) was recently invented?

Then why, given your argument, would Riker even know about it?

Klingon Warriers

19-02-2006, 07:29

Kirk would have slept with leia in her cell, punched tarkin in the face, and blown up the death star on his way out!:mp5:

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 07:45

Why? What possible advantage would it gain them to make him angry and even more desperate? You don't call someone's bluff unless you gain some advantage by doing so

There would be an advantage for the crew--knowing that he couldn't in fact kill them all with one press of a button, they probably would've fought back. They knew Tuvok (or rather the alien possessing him) needed them, or at the very least didn't want to kill them.

What stopped them from fighting back was that Tuvok wasn't bluffing. Someone, if he was bluffing, would've said so. If I round up people with a pistol and say "This pistol is set to wide-bullets and will kill all of you when I pull the trigger", someone's going to point out my bluff.

Especially when they have holsted phasers.

Because we've never seen it and the only evidence we have of it is from a guy who was posessed by an alien and a guy who was hallucinating.

This isn't evidence that Tuvok was bluffing; and as I've mentioned before, this alien had access to all of Tuvok's knowledge.

By the way, Riker was only "dillusional" when strange things occured. Even then, his intelligence of tech wasn't affected.

Your claim that Tuvok's bluffing is unfounded and weak, especially since WB can be set up to level 16 and melt large sections of rock.

But I bet "somehow" it won't melt humans.

Then why, given your argument, would Riker even know about it?

I was mearly trying to suggest a possibility you'd accept.

EDIT:

Furthermore, if setting 16 destroyed buildings, it should have killed Picard and Worf when they used it in a confined space

It was set for a low beam concentration.

Strasse II

19-02-2006, 08:05

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 08:05

What stopped them from fighting back was that Tuvok wasn't bluffing. Someone, if he was bluffing, would've said so. If I round up people with a pistol and say "This pistol is set to wide-bullets and will kill all of you when I pull the trigger", someone's going to point out my bluff.

Not if you can knock them all out with it and it holds enough bullets to kill them all. Tuvok's phaser was probably set to wide-beam stun already, so effectively he could have killed them all with a single press of that button, since he'd be granted all the time he needed to finish them off by doing so.

Again, there is no point whatsoever to pointing out someone is bluffing if you don't change your position by doing so. Even with the phaser on wide stun, Tuvok's need for the crew to be alive or his ability to kill them doesn't change; only the fact that it wouldn't be instantaneous, which doesn't change matters at all. They would still die.

Your claim that Tuvok's bluffing is unfounded and weak, especially since WB can be set up to level 16 and melt large sections of rock.

No, it can apparently clear a few loose rocks from the front of an existing lava tube. If you recall, Picard could see right down the tunnel already and could even estimate how long it was, before they fired.

But I bet "somehow" it won't melt humans.

Yes, much as it didn't melt Yuta. She vanished.

I was mearly trying to suggest a possibility you'd accept.

And in doings so you contradicted your earlier arguments. Either it's new in Voyager or Riker knew about it, you can't have both. The former loses you half your support, since Riker obviously was bluffing if the setting didn't exist in TNG.

It was set for a low beam concentration.

So? You can't put out a massive amount of energy that's supposed to destroy buildings without causing a bloody great explosion.

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 08:26

Not if you can knock them all out with it and it holds enough bullets to kill them all. Tuvok's phaser was probably set to wide-beam stun already, so effectively he could have killed them all with a single press of that button, since he'd be granted all the time he needed to finish them off by doing so.

Someone most certainly would've called my bluff, as they would've Tuvok's. By call I don't mean they'll try to attack me to prove me wrong, they would've simply said so.

If I say some BS, someone's gonna contradict it.

Again, there is no point whatsoever to pointing out someone is bluffing if you don't change your position by doing so. Even with the phaser on wide stun, Tuvok's need for the crew to be alive or his ability to kill them doesn't change; only the fact that it wouldn't be instantaneous, which doesn't change matters at all. They would still die.

Knowing that I couldn't kill them all with a single press would've prompted them to try to fight back, as it would've for the Voyager crew. The position would've changed for them--if any of them would die, security would make it to the bridge and subue Tuvok (or try).

No, it can apparently clear a few loose rocks from the front of an existing lava tube. If you recall, Picard could see right down the tunnel already and could even estimate how long it was, before they fired.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Special/handweap/TNG6-chain12brsmsm.jpg

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Special/handweap/TNG6-chain16smsm.jpg

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Special/handweap/DSN5-rapture-pha01sm.jpg

And in doings so you contradicted your earlier arguments. Either it's new in Voyager or Riker knew about it, you can't have both. The former loses you half your support, since Riker obviously was bluffing if the setting didn't exist in TNG.

Alright, I admit my suggestion sucked. I take the suggestion back that it's new--it's existed before Voyager.

So? You can't put out a massive amount of energy that's supposed to destroy buildings without causing a bloody great explosion.

You can in ST. Ahh, the joys of Sci-fi.

More evidence of WBK (and early ones, at that):

TOS2 [Omega Glory]

A single digit amount of phasers (only 4 existed on that word) ended up killing thousands of Yang "barbarians" on a single battlefield. Or is indirect proof not enough for you?

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 08:51

Someone most certainly would've called my bluff, as they would've Tuvok's. By call I don't mean they'll try to attack me to prove me wrong, they would've simply said so.

Why? If it gives them no advantage to do so and would likely only make you angry and more desperate, what's the point?

Knowing that I couldn't kill them all with a single press would've prompted them to try to fight back, as it would've for the Voyager crew.

He could effectively have killed them all with a single button press, since after being stunned he could have done whatever he liked to them. Their situation didn't change one iota because he would have had to kill them individually while they were knocked out, nor did *his* need for them to be alive change.

<Snip>

You forgot the part where you make some kind of argument based on those pictures. You also deliberately missed out the pictures in between the two from Chain of Command, because they utterly destroy your argument.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/GMCMA/Other%20stuff/Oops.jpg

Oh look, the tunnel was already there and Level Sixteen just melted a few rocks at the front of it.

A single digit amount of phasers (only 4 existed on that word) ended up killing thousands of Yang "barbarians" on a single battlefield. Or is indirect proof not enough for you?

And do we know how long the battle took? How they attacked? What tactics they used? Seriously, it's just ridiculous to leap to the conclusion that thousands must have died at once.

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 09:02

You forgot the part where you make some kind of argument based on those pictures. You also deliberately missed out the pictures in between the two from Chain of Command, because they utterly destroy your argument.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/GMCMA/Other%20stuff/Oops.jpg

Oh look, the tunnel was already there and Level Sixteen just melted a few rocks at the front of it.

The picture I showed clearly shows other rocks were destroyed.

If you look, there is yellow glow extending into the tube on the tube's bottom-left side, as well as an obvious difference in coloration of the tube wall. This implies that the vaporization did extend into the tube for some distance. Needless to say, the vaporization was done quite cleanly, which is a great showing of setting 16's power.

And, I had another pic.

And do we know how long the battle took? How they attacked? What tactics they used? Seriously, it's just ridiculous to leap to the conclusion that thousands must have died at once.

Thousands did die; dialouge confirms this. They didn't die at once--they died in one battle. The battle wasn't long, it took place within a day because Kirk puts an end to it with a diplomatic talk with the leaders. The tactics of the Yang would be simple--not much greater than mass and rush, probably out in the open.

Thousands of Yang would have no trouble overrunning the single-digit phasers. Tracy (the man who was standed on that planet, searching for the Fountain of Youth) rose to ruling his tribe by defending it from the raids/attacks from the Yangs by himself.

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 09:08

The picture I showed clearly shows other rocks were destroyed. And, I had another.

Yes, it can make rocks glow, according to your other picture. Oh my. And the pic I have comes after yours. It rather clearly shows there was nothing in most of the length of the tunnel and a few loose rocks at the front.

If you look, there is yellow glow extending into the tube on the tube's bottom-left side, as well as an obvious difference in coloration of the tube wall. This implies that the vaporization did extend into the tube for some distance.

No, it doesn't. Quit quoting arguments directly from RSA's site, it does you no favours at all. That glow is likely a few rocks from the blockage that fell further into the tunnel as it fell apart.

Thousands did die; dialouge confirms this. They didn't die at once--they died in one battle. The battle wasn't long, it took place within a day because Kirk puts an end to it with a diplomatic talk with the leaders. The tactics of the Yang would be simple--not much greater than mass and rush, probably out in the open.

And in the real world using similar tactics, tens of thousands died in hours at Verdun, and they had rifles. You would expect casualties orders of magnitude higher than the claim with primitive barbarians if they were charging wide-beam phasers set to kill. Further, dialog is a poor source because people are prone to lies and exaggerations. You have yet another poor quality implication.

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 09:13

And in the real world using similar tactics, tens of thousands died in hours at Verdun, and they had rifles. You would expect casualties orders of magnitude higher than the claim with primitive barbarians if they were charging wide-beam phasers set to kill. Further, dialog is a poor source because people are prone to lies and exaggerations. Yu have yet another poor quality implication.

They had rifles. There was only 1-4 phasers, and an equal number of combatants. The Yangs would've easily overran them. Yet again you won't accept the facts.

I admit I don't know how long the actual battle was, but I will look up that episode in my archives to see.

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 09:16

They had rifles. There was only 1-4 phasers. They would've easily overran them. Yet again you won't accept the facts.

The people who died had rifles at Verdun, and they still took tens of thousands of casualties in hours. People who didn't have rifles [like primative 'barbarians'] would easily expect casualties in the tens or even hundreds of thousands from such an assault. There'd be talk of the entire army being wiped out, not just 'casualties.'

Klingon Warriers

19-02-2006, 09:16

Star Wars is far better than Star Trek. What Star Wars lacks in quantity(Star Trek must have thousands of episodes already) its makes up for with much better quality.

Some great things in the Star Wars universe: The Sith,Death Star,Darth Maul,Lightsabers,Lord Vadar,Boba Fett,Jango Fett, the clone army,the Galactic Empire,Star Destroyers, the Force, Obi Wan,At-Ats,Han Solo,Qui Gon Jin,Yoda,Tuskan Raiders,Wookies,C3PO,R2D2 and I can go on and on.

Seriously there should be no contest dealing with this topic.

That argument is a bunch of BS. I'm all for comparing ST tech to SW tech. But when you start talking about the quality of the shows and movies, you need to remember one important fact. George Lucas wanted to create a fictional galaxy with alot of wars and fighting. Gene Roddenberry wanted to show what earth may be like in the future. Big difference there. The only fair comparrisons between the two is comparring the ships, technology, charactors, and such. There is a reason why Lucas used the name Star Wars, and why Roddenberry used Star Trek.

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 09:18

The people who died had rifles at Verdun, and they still took tens of thousands of casualties in hours. People who didn't have rifles [like primative 'barbarians'] would easily expect casualties in the tens or even hundreds of thousands from such an assault. There'd be talk of the entire army being wiped out, not just 'casualties.'

The thing you're missing is that it's between 1-4 MEN who did those casualties to the Yangs.

Not all of the Yangs were killed--in fact, the goal they were attempting (to draw them out in the open via sacrificing a large amount of warriors) succeeded. They probably would've killed Tracy and his tribe if not for Kirk's rather . . . patriotic dialouge.

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 09:21

The thing you're missing is that it's between 1-4 MEN who did those casualties to the Yangs.

So? Do we know how quickly the Yangs were moving men onto the battlefield? We know that TOS Phasers, unlike later ones, are capable of relatively rapid fire, and that alone can easily account for high casualties without the need for wide-beam kill settings.

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 09:26

So? Do we know how quickly the Yangs were moving men onto the battlefield? We know that TOS Phasers, unlike later ones, are capable of relatively rapid fire, and that alone can easily account for high casualties without the need for wide-beam kill settings.

High casualities yes, but not thousands. We know the Yangs did this in pretty much one movement--not send a group of 5 at a time or 10 at a time. This was a military movement--a single battle.

You made a good point that Tracy may have been exaggerating, but he had to have killed quite a few. It's very likely he killed hundreds or a thousand (rather than thousands).

Am I going to have to actually show you WBK? Is indirect proof not enough for you?

If that's the case, I admit I can't, and we'll just have to settle with agree to disagree.

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 09:34

High casualities yes, but not thousands. We know the Yangs did this in pretty much one movement--not send a group of 5 at a time or 10 at a time. This was a military movement.

At that is necessary to get hundreds of casualties is for a TOS phaser to be able to match a light machine gun in terms of rate of fire. We've seen a three round burst fired from a TOS phaser , and that's enough to explain this event. It's unclear if this ability survived into TNG: 'Siege of AR-338' strongly implies phasers in TNG / DS9 can no longer fire in multi-shot bursts, and have about the same rate of fire as bolt-action rifles.

The First Contact / Voyager phaser rifles apparently can fire semi-automatically in reasonably short pulses as well as long beams, since we've seen that happen, and would be about the same as a modern rifle firing on semi-auto, or a Blaster.

Am I going to have to actually [i]show you WBK? Is indirect proof not enough for you?

If that's the case, I admit I can't.

Concession accepted. There's no direct evidence of it, and all the events that imply it have other explainations or are of very poor quality for proof [delusional man, posessed man].

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 09:37

Concession accepted. There's no direct evidence of it, and all the events that imply it have other explainations or are of very poor quality for proof [delusional man, posessed man].

We've seen a three round burst fired from a TOS phaser [it's on the page you're getting your arguments from]

No, it isn't. Three round burst won't kill that much.

Well, all I can say now is it's clear that what we consider proof differs for one another. I don't accept your evidence; you don't accept mine. Typical for any sort of ST-SW debate.

I do concede there's no direct evidence of WBK being used, but indirect proof is just as good as direct proof.

At least, scientifically.

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 09:42

I do concede there's no direct evidence of WBK being used, but indirect proof is just as good as direct proof.

Not really. What you're doing is like saying that we've seen a car go at 100 miles per hour, and we've seen the same car towing a caravan, so the car must be able to tow the caravan at 100 miles per hour...Because a delusional man and a guy who's posessed by aliens said so.

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 09:46

Not really. What you're doing is like saying that we've seen a car go at 100 miles per hour, and we've seen the same car towing a caravan, so the car must be able to tow the caravan at 100 miles per hour...Because a delusional man and a guy who's posessed by aliens said so.

A delusional man who was only delusional when weird screwed up things happened and a possessed man with all the hosts intelligence. WBK may not be able to fire at full power, but a phaser does not need full power to kill. And there's no indirect evidence for it tugging the caravan at 100mph like there is WBK . . .

You see? We're going round-and-round. I don't have the patience for it anymore.

And yes, scientifically, indirect proof is just as much proof as direct proof is.

GMC Military Arms

19-02-2006, 10:01

And yes, scientifically, indirect proof is just as much proof as direct proof is.
Not when one theory violates the principle of Occam's Razor and the other does not. You require additional explainations for the non-use of wide-beam kill settings in Trek [and you can't explain them without stepping outside suspension of disbelief], while I do not. Therefore, my theory is scientifically more sound than yours.

Samrobarvaria

19-02-2006, 10:12

Ok, here is one humble Jedi's opinion.

I am both a fan of Star Wars and Star Trek so i have some body of knowledge. Many of my friends recount me as a walking SW Dictionary, or sorts. SO here goes:

Star Wars, allbeit, has not been around as long, point goes to ST.
Special Effects in SW were monumental and ground-breaking, point to SW.
The SW Movies reinvented hollywood and reestablished positive cinema.
While ST has much techno-speak, it is generally incomprehensible to others.
SW has techno-speak, yes, but if you really want to research it, it makes sense (See Novels with Technical Specs).
SW collecting is a valued art, ala steve sansweet.
ST also has a rabid fanbase of collectors, but no steve look-alike, sadly.
Star Trek started out with overacting, repetative plots and pradictability (ala red shirt sacrificial lambs).
SW was very "wow" and suspenseful, so much that anyone who said the end of the latest movie everyone who hadnt seen it said "OH i hate you!".
when was the last time that an entire family seen ST movies?
when was the last time people skipped work and school to hang in front of the chinese theatre for the lastest ST movie? yeah, thought so, SW rules, once again.
While Data is very pleasing, C-3P0 has a charm that works on my grandma, weirdly enough. so some people like his humor some dont, go figure.
It hasnt been tested, but a phaser could possibly be deflected by a lightsaber. but since we have no crossover (kirk vs obi) i cant be sure 100%.
Lucas is a money-grubbing loser who makes his fans hate him, Gene Roddenbury is kind of...dead. lol Which is worse? lol
Women are just as plentiful in SW, Video Game babes have a cult following, Expanded Universe brought with it Mara Jade, Asajj Ventress and many sexy female Jedi. Think out the box on this one people.

When you get down to it, SW has a fanatical and lets face it, bigger fanbase. Its really unfair and much like comparing apples and oranges (with flies on em). Its ok to be a fan of either, or *gasp* both. But SW is in a league of its own, this kind of bickering amongst ourselves is unbefitting a real Jedi, so enhance your calm, download some porn and get over it guys.
:sniper: Pick'n Em Off, One At a Time...
~Blue~

Leet h4x0rz

19-02-2006, 10:26

To answer a couple things:

From the starwars.com Databank
Turbolaser: The turbolasers lining the Death Star were designed for anti-capital ship defense

Hyperspace: Hyperspace is not lightspeed, it is sort of another dimension, where "there is no limit to how fast a ship can travel".
[/URL]

Also, "Modern hyperdrives are classified by their speeds, with the lower the class number, the faster the drive. The Millennium Falcon has an extremely fast hyperdrive, rated at class 0.5."

And if you research how a blaster works in Star Wars, they are particle beams, not lasers/light.
[URL="http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/blaster/?id=eu"] (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/hyperdrive/index.html)

That all being said... Sun Crusher > anything ever thought of ever in any movie

HC Eredivisie

19-02-2006, 12:41

Yeah, just like a single Borg cube was destroyed by Picard, twice :rolleyes: Put some thought into these plzThe first one was destroyed using self destruct, on suggesting of Picard who was still Borg at that point (if Picard was still at the cube the Enterprise couldn't have destroyed it because the cube would simply be too powerfull). The second cube was destroyed after an entire fleet fought something from several hours to three days with it.:rolleyes:

Umm, the turbolasers can easily traverse up to hit the Starfleet ship, and the spherical nature of the DS means even those with a limited arc of fire can still fire on other ships.I doubt the ships stay at one point, they probalby make attack runs.

As for shields,They weren't in the movie, were they (long time I saw SW)? Anyway, they use a fighter to fly through the shields?:rolleyes:

It was, and scaling it compared to the E-D sitting next to it showed how large it was. Besides, even if it was more then 5 kilometers long, why would it take the Enterprise's entire compliment of 250 torpedos to destroy it, torpedos which you claim are capable of destroying a planet's crust?Was it shown fully on screen with the Enterprise next to it? Was it ever said on screen that they carried 250 torpedoes, the E certainly carried less when fighting the Scimitar.

Why should counter-calcs be presented if your only trying to prove someone else's set is wrong?....Well, maybe to prove his/her calcs are wrong? oo wait, silly my, if you say something you don't have to proof it, just saying it is enough.

What other directions? Besides, the Xindi weapon has no defenses of its own, and it had to resort to a chain-reaction of the target itself to blow it up. Shields tend to stop those ;)
Directions: when a vessel is in front of the DS the turbolasers at the back can't hit. And you mean those DS shields where a fighter flew through?;)

Clintville

19-02-2006, 12:54

Star Wars is the best.

Jordaxia

19-02-2006, 15:36

They weren't in the movie, were they (long time I saw SW)? Anyway, they use a fighter to fly through the shields?:rolleyes:

Directions: when a vessel is in front of the DS the turbolasers at the back can't hit. And you mean those DS shields where a fighter flew through?;)

Depends. The second DS has particle shields (that stop kinetic weapons, and the X wings, Bwings and whatever else was there, hence why they cancelled their attack run.) as well as ray shields (annihilating energy that stops energy weapons but can also seriously damage organic tissue, hence why obi and anakin don't walk through them) The initial DS probably only had the ray shields, or a different form of particle shield, like the one used at hoth which would stop the entire imperial fleets bombardment, but couldn't prevent AT/ATs walking through it because it was the wrong type.

Remember the 2 deathstars are totally different ships. The second one is also far larger :D

Kerubia

19-02-2006, 19:30

Remember the 2 deathstars are totally different ships. The second one is also far larger :D

And far less . . . complete!

Lt_Cody

19-02-2006, 20:42

The first one was destroyed using self destruct, on suggesting of Picard who was still Borg at that point (if Picard was still at the cube the Enterprise couldn't have destroyed it because the cube would simply be too powerfull). The second cube was destroyed after an entire fleet fought something from several hours to three days with it.:rolleyes:
Exactly, so saying "a single fighters destroyed the DS hurr hurr" is simplifing it to stupid levels. The DS was destroyed because a lucky Force-guided shot was able to destroy the station's reactor from the inside. Can you show a Trek ship being able to survive the Trench run and get a photon torp to do a 90 degree turn within 2 meters to enter the shaft?

I doubt the ships stay at one point, they probalby make attack runs.
And that's going to make all the difference?

They weren't in the movie, were they (long time I saw SW)?
It didn't say the DS didn't have shields, did it?
Anyway, they use a fighter to fly through the shields?:rolleyes:
Yeah, just like a shuttle got through the shields of a Borb Cube:rolleyes: The first one wasn't designed to stop fighters because they saw them as non-factors.

Was it shown fully on screen with the Enterprise next to it? Was it ever said on screen that they carried 250 torpedoes, the E certainly carried less when fighting the Scimitar.
Yes on the asteroid Link (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Database/Query-ST.php?Series=TNG&Category=Naval+Weapons&EpName=Pegasus&Keywords=&Quotes=&Analysis=&Submit=Submit) and yes on the number of torpedosLink (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Database/Query-ST.php?Series=&Category=&EpName=&Keywords=&Quotes=275&Analysis=&Submit=Submit)

....Well, maybe to prove his/her calcs are wrong? oo wait, silly my, if you say something you don't have to proof it, just saying it is enough.
He already does prove the calcs are wrong, did you read the page?

Directions: when a vessel is in front of the DS the turbolasers at the back can't hit. And you mean those DS shields where a fighter flew through?;)
Except for the little fact that turbolasers cover the entire surface of the station, there is no "back" or "sides" you can take advantage of.

Shotagon

19-02-2006, 21:09

Star Wars. I like lightsabers, jedis and the expanded universe characters. :)

Zatarack

19-02-2006, 21:25

Well, considering the Slave 1 has more firepower than the Enterprise-D, I'd say it's quite obvious.

HC Eredivisie

19-02-2006, 22:21

Exactly, so saying "a single fighters destroyed the DS hurr hurr" is simplifing it to stupid levels. The DS was destroyed because a lucky Force-guided shot was able to destroy the station's reactor from the inside. Can you show a Trek ship being able to survive the Trench run and get a photon torp to do a 90 degree turn within 2 meters to enter the shaft?When in the trench they could beam the torpedo in the station;)

It didn't say the DS didn't have shields, did it?That doesn't mean that it suddenly has shields.

Yeah, just like a shuttle got through the shields of a Borg Cube:rolleyes: The first one wasn't designed to stop fighters because they saw them as non-factors.Then Federation fighters and shuttles can get through them too.

Yes on the asteroid Link (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Database/Query-ST.php?Series=TNG&Category=Naval+Weapons&EpName=Pegasus&Keywords=&Quotes=&Analysis=&Submit=Submit) So it was scaled to what?
and yes on the number of torpedosLink (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Database/Query-ST.php?Series=&Category=&EpName=&Keywords=&Quotes=275&Analysis=&Submit=Submit)OK

He already does prove the calcs are wrong, did you read the page?He can't make his own?

Except for the little fact that turbolasers cover the entire surface of the station, there is no "back" or "sides" you can take advantage of.Read it again, I know they are all over the DS but they can't fire through it:rolleyes:

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