NationStates Jolt Archive

Because they can and its their right to. That and maybe they feel that surrendering to a higher power isnt a legitimate way to get sober and don't think it should be used. Thats their perspective and they are allowed to voice it.
Oh I see, they don't believe in God, but they want to play God.....gotcha.

Some people get sober on their own, some get sober with therapy, some get sober with AA. Who cares how they get sober as long as they do. I say more power to them. And I guess those that choose to get sober with a higher power, then that is their choice no matter how much the atheists want to complain about it.

Sadly canuck its within their rights to criticize an organization that they don't like. So you can either deal with it or you can leave the thread if you think its such an attack.
Oh it may be their right alright, I just feel sorry for them.

Obviously you won't be changing any point of views especially with the condescending way you've been acting so I'd suggest the later.
I have been challenging, and if you prefer to call it condescention that is your perogative. BTW, wasn't it you who has been acting in a condescending manner? I could go back and pull them for you if you wish?

But then again its within your rights to stay here and be a jerk so I can't tell you what to do.
Oh, I see, they have a right to express their opinions, but I am a "jerK" if I express mine. Perhaps you should polish up your debating skills?


If they or I for that matter want to say AA is a shitty organization for the religious tones that aren't effective in helping people we can and will in the thread.
Well, obviously you and they would be dead wrong.

Oh I see, they don't believe in God, but they want to play God.....gotcha.
ahahaha what a strawman if I've ever seen it. No one talked about playing god or forcing anything on anyone. Only that its their right to voice their opinions on the organization.

Some people get sober on their own, some get sober with therapy, some get sober with AA. Who cares how they get sober as long as they do. I say more power to them. And I guess those that choose to get sober with a higher power, then that is their choice no matter how much the atheists want to complain about it.
This has no bearing on people's right to criticize the organization. And you still seem to think that people want to shut down AA here. No one(its a big thread and I don't have time to comb it all again so I may be wrong) wants to kill AA. You just seem to be dead set against people criticizing the organization. And I can't for the life of me figure out why.


Oh it may be their right alright, I just feel sorry for them.
Thats like saying oh I feel sorry for all those people who criticize the ACLU. Its an asnine thing to do man and your continuing to prove my point that you've acted like an ass in the thread.


I have been challenging, and if you prefer to call it condescention that is your perogative. BTW, wasn't it you who has been acting in a condescending manner? I could go back and pull them for you if you wish?
My manner of action is not suspect right now. And you've been more then just challenging. You've attempted to pull a socratic sort of questioning here that has not only backfired but made you look like an ass. So the "challenging" as you call it still is asinine and makes you look incredibly bad.


Oh, I see, they have a right to express their opinions, but I am a "jerK" if I express mine. Perhaps you should polish up your debating skills?
No I'm more going at your manner of posting then your opinion. I don't mind your opinion I just think you've been a tremendous ass throughout this thread.


Well, obviously you and they would be dead wrong.
You've yet to prove it in this thread and there have been other stats that have gone against your point of view. So I'm more inclinded to side with the other people in the thread then just your "their dead wrong" statement.

I'd love to continue this rousing discussion cunuck but I've got class in the morning so I need sleep.

~~Snip~~
IF you want to debate the issues, fine. If you want to flame and troll, I don't want to play. Enough said.

IF you want to debate the issues, fine. If you want to flame and troll, I don't want to play. Enough said.

Ahahaha as if your sitting back and not throwing your own flames. Your "I feel sorry for them comment" is just one of the many shinning examples of you examplary record of this thread. As far as I've seen on the debate side I've posted an article that your best response was I disagree with it. Thats a hell of a job debating from you Canuck. Well I'm done for the night.

a higher power told me to drink and that i should take up marksmanship with my shotgun at the grocery store immediately afterwards... I'm halfway to completing my diving mission.

Is AA's loss psychology's gain?

Stanton Peele, Ph.D., J.D.
New York University School of Social Work



A number of state Supreme Court and federal circuit court cases —including Arnold v. Tennessee Board of Paroles (1997), Griffin v. Coughlin (New York, 1996), Warner v. Orange County Dep't. of Probation (2nd Cir. 1997), Rauser v. Horn (3rd Cir. 2001), and Kerr v. Farrey (7th Cir. 1996)— have defined Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and other treatment programs based on AA's 12 steps as religious in nature.

In all the cases, state agencies (either courts or corrections) sentenced or otherwise compelled probationers or inmates to participate in such programs, thereby, according to the case decisions, violating the First Amendment's separation of church and state (the Establishment Clause). AA requires that participants turn themselves over to a "higher power" as part of their recovery. AA advocates typically indicate that a higher power may be anything — including, according to former Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating, "a dead ancestor, a tall tree or the group itself."

But courts disagree with his analysis, finding that the reference to God or a higher power in six of the 12 steps is, in fact, religious. The courts have also found that it is not only that many meetings begin and end with prayers, but that the fundamental nature of turning oneself over to a higher power is a religious conception.

Because of actions in New York by both its highest court (in Griffin) and the federal appeals court governing the state (in Warner), the state has most clearly indicated that state-funded programs may not compel AA attendance. The 2nd Circuit (the federal appeals court that covers New York, Vermont and Connecticut) extended rulings against mandated AA participation in DeStephano v. Emergency Housing Group et al (2001). Joseph DeStefano, mayor of Middletown, originally brought the action in the Southern District Court of New York against a private alcohol treatment facility that received state funding. The lower court granted a summary judgment in favor of the defendant, Middletown Alcohol Crisis Center.

The 2nd Circuit appeals court vacated the decision and remanded the case. Although the program did not officially require clients to attend AA, the appeals court decided that supervision of AA meetings by program staff and reliance on AA literature was sufficient to evoke the Establishment Clause. Based on DeStefano, New York's Office of Alcohol and Substance Abuse Services issued a bulletin to all government-funded providers stating that AA attendance could not be compulsory, treatment staff must not supervise AA meetings and programs could not require use of AA materials.

Yet standard treatment programs, even in New York, have been slow to adopt the law enunciated in Griffin and Warner. AA and its 12 steps are such a fundamental part of American substance abuse treatment that many programs and counselors cannot imagine alternatives.
AA alternatives

The recent line of legal rulings brings significant consequences for psychologists. While many psychologists practice 12-step approaches, psychology as a field and many of its addiction specialists (like Alan Marlatt, William Miller and myself) have pioneered and promoted non 12-step approaches.

Motivational interviewing, brief interventions, relapse prevention, the community reinforcement approach and the perspective of harm reduction are some of the more prominent, and effective, examples. Thomas Horvath, a former president of APA's Div. 50 (Addictions), heads SMART Recovery, a non12-step support group, and Moderation Management is a support group whose board includes a number of psychologists.

Nonetheless, it is standard for courts to refer people convicted of driving under the influence or defendants in state family court actions or drug courts to 12-step programs.

Yet legal decisions involving mandatory AA and 12-step program referrals indicate the need for such sentencing to include programs that do not rely on AA's 12 steps. Along with awareness of these legal issues, courts also need a better understanding of evidence-based psychological approaches to alcohol and drug problems.

The court decisions described in this article make clear that there is a legal — as well as ethical and scientific — basis for expanding this understanding.

Edit:

The sentence isn't relevant unless you take the whole post and the context it was in. So there is a need for me to tell you not to put words in my mouth by taking a part of a post and taking it out of context.
One of the things in AA is to rid to try to rid onself of character defectss. This is an on-going process. One of my character defects is laziness - so said - I's too lazy to read this long long long article. LOL

One of the things in AA is to rid to try to rid onself of character defectss. This is an on-going process. One of my character defects is laziness - so said - I's too lazy to read this long long long article. LOL

Seems like the methods of AA seem to have failed again. :rolleyes:

One of the things in AA is to rid to try to rid onself of character defectss. This is an on-going process. One of my character defects is laziness - so said - I's too lazy to read this long long long article. LOL

Cool! A 'character defect' (i.e. an interaction between biology and environment) is a reasonable way to start to define alcholism as well; no need to bring in the 'disease' concept there :)

Elgesh']Cool! A 'character defect' (i.e. an interaction between biology and environment) is a reasonable way to start to define alcholism as well; no need to bring in the 'disease' concept there :)

I'd concur. Though alcoholism doesn't necessarily need a defect to be present. Someone could just like to drink. The drinking to much may make the person react in different ways though. So someone could be a fun drunk and be alcoholic or they could be a mean drunk and an alcoholic. Defect makes me think there is a moral/social judgement being made on the behavior.

I'd concur. Though alcoholism doesn't necessarily need a defect to be present. Someone could just like to drink. The drinking to much may make the person react in different ways though. So someone could be a fun drunk and be alcoholic or they could be a mean drunk and an alcoholic. Defect makes me think there is a moral/social judgement being made on the behavior.
hence 'defect' in inverted commas, as I was quoting Plator - I agree, 'defect' implies neg. judgement, not a term I'd use in a paper or anything!

Here, a character 'defect' = character trait that impacts on behaviour, that the owner (or others?) regards negatively, perhaps? - been working hard (12 pm - 4am yesterday, and 12pm onwards today) on uni-work, so my thinking's a little fuzzy round the edges!

Elgesh']hence 'defect' in inverted commas, as I was quoting Plator - I agree, 'defect' implies neg. judgement, not a term I'd use in a paper or anything!

Here, a character 'defect' = character trait that impacts on behaviour, that the owner (or others?) regards negatively, perhaps? - been working hard (12 pm - 4am yesterday, and 12pm onwards today) on uni-work, so my thinking's a little fuzzy round the edges!

Its okay. I'm running on about 3 hours of sleep and I just got back from an early class so I'm not in the best mindframe either. To look at what your saying with the character defect it seems your heading into the realm of something called labeling theory in the study of deviant behavior which deals with how society or others react to a persons behavior. So if we are looking at alcoholism from a purely societal view our reaction seems to be one of labeling it negatively. If we look at the behavior without any moral judgment then I think the defect label really isn't appropriate and it just looking at a behavior. Now the problem is should we look at alcoholism in a light where there is this moral judgement in the background or should our observations be devoid of it and should we just focus on the behavior, its causes, and what can be done about it.

...Now the problem is should we look at alcoholism in a light where there is this moral judgement in the background or should our observations be devoid of it and should we just focus on the behavior, its causes, and what can be done about it.
Ah, we're going to falll down here - I'm a psych major, not sociology! <help!>

My lot reckon addiction to something like alcohol is based on biology, environment, experience (epigenetics offers a rather cool insight, btw) etc., but always based at the level of the individual. As for why, well, a maladaptive coping strategy, resilience/susceptability issues, as a form of socialisation etc etc.

I reckon alcoholism is a behaviour, frequently harmful to the indiv and those around him/her, that arises from the stuff I mentioned above. To 'fix' it, look at the causes and mechanisms of that behaviour, and try and intervene appropriately.

Elgesh']Ah, we're going to falll down here - I'm a psych major, not sociology! <help!>
lol

My lot reckon addiction to something like alcohol is based on biology, environment, experience (epigenetics offers a rather cool insight, btw) etc., but always based at the level of the individual. As for why, well, a maladaptive coping strategy, resilience/susceptability issues, as a form of socialisation etc etc.
Of course I agree with the fact that there is a basis for alcoholism in the environment, experience, and more though I tend to fall into the its a choice not a disease group so I'm alittle shaky with biology. If you mean with biology that there are certain genese which influence the way the body reacts to the chemical nature of alcohol I'd agree but I don't think genes cause people to drink.

Also I tend to bring in the sociological aspect of it because really is there alcoholism without the label from society? I mean without the negative label we have here its just drinking a shit load of booze.

I reckon alcoholism is a behaviour, frequently harmful to the indiv and those around him/her, that arises from the stuff I mentioned above. To 'fix' it, look at the causes and mechanisms of that behaviour, and try and intervene appropriately.
Well there are plenty of different types of alcoholics and there are plenty of times its harmful to the individual and others around them and other times its not really that bad and the person just drinks alot. And I'm going to have to agree with you that alcoholism is a behavior just not to the degree on adding the harm aspect.

Elgesh']I know I shouldn't answer, but this is ridiculous.

CH, you've flogged this dead horse for ages now. Let it drop.

You've asked for eveidence that AA has a very low success rate. I gave it.

You asked what the problem Sinuhue had with spirituality in AA programs, and you've been answered, with exceptional patience, as you rephrased the same question again and again.

You asked what religion AA was affiliated with, and Desperate Measures and others answered you, with exceptional patience, as you etc etc.

You're looking like a fool, behaving like a troll, and advancing your argument not one iota. That's enough. Don't keep banging away with the exact same (disproved) points over and over in the hope everyone will get exasperated and leave, allowing you to claim some sort of moral victory. Bring something new, and maybe we'll have a debate.
Thank you. This is exactly how I feel about Canuk's constant repetitive questions, which continue despite the fact that I've already answered them many, many times. Apparently the questions are actually rhetorical, since he doesn't really seem to read the answers anyway...so I believed there to be no point in answering them...again.

I know many people who have recovered through the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, and who this day, lead happy, productive lives. To see people run AA down because it doesn't jive with their brand of atheism is kind of sad to say the least.
And I've said: Good for you, or other who've done well with AA. I have stated from the beginning that it would not work for me, as an atheist, because of it's heavy reliance on spritituality...to the point where your beloved Big Book actually states that you cannot succeed unless you embrace a Higher Power (don't fucking ask for proof...I've given it already, as have others...so get over it). Therefore, ATHEISTS (not to be confused with agnostics) are not going to succeed unless they stop being Atheists. And a secular court, in a secular nation, should not be forcing ATHEISTS to 'convert' to some brand of spirituality. Get it? Got it? Good. I'm done.

Thank you. This is exactly how I feel about Canuk's constant repetitive questions, which continue despite the fact that I've already answered them many, many times. Apparently the questions are actually rhetorical, since he doesn't really seem to read the answers anyway...so I believed there to be no point in answering them...again.

Don't worry about canuk. He seems to be in here saying well it does some good so you guys can't criticize it, which I might add is utter bullshit. That and reflecting on the vitriolic conversation we had last night it dawned on me that it was because of his hypocritical action that he and I got into a fight. He made a big stink about Elgesh answering a post that was directed at you and then he proceeds to do the same thing with a post I had directed at plator. He really just seemed to want to try to stifle any criticizm of the organization which he really can't do.

Ummmm, I was asking about Sinuhue's father, but unfortunately [NS:::]Elgesh decided to answer for her. Hence some confusion.

I dare say that Sinuhue will not answer?
Oh, your question about my daddy? No, I'm not going to answer it, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I've been saying this entire thread. It's a red herring on your part. Whether or not AA would work for my CATHOLIC FATHER has no bearing on whether it would:

a) work for me, as an atheist, or other atheists
b) be a good idea to have a secular court force people into a program based on spirituality

See how that works? I make a point, and stick to it...instead of letting you decide that the argument is actually about *x*.

And I've said: Good for you, or other who've done well with AA. I have stated from the beginning that it would not work for me, as an atheist, because of it's heavy reliance on spritituality...to the point where your beloved Big Book actually states that you cannot succeed unless you embrace a Higher Power (don't fucking ask for proof...I've given it already, as have others...so get over it). Therefore, ATHEISTS (not to be confused with agnostics) are not going to succeed unless they stop being Atheists. And a secular court, in a secular nation, should not be forcing ATHEISTS to 'convert' to some brand of spirituality. Get it? Got it? Good. I'm done.

The US Army forces people to take Antabuse every morning if they are ever thought to be an alcoholic. The pill is administered whether you like it or not.

Keeps you from drinking, unless you really like puking hard.

Seems like the methods of AA seem to have failed again. :rolleyes:
Oohh I set myself up for that one!!!!! :p

Elgesh']I reckon alcoholism is a behaviour, frequently harmful to the indiv and those around him/her, that arises from the stuff I mentioned above. To 'fix' it, look at the causes and mechanisms of that behaviour, and try and intervene appropriately.
AA does this in steps 1,4,5,8,9,10

Thank you. This is exactly how I feel about Canuk's constant repetitive questions, which continue despite the fact that I've already answered them many, many times. Apparently the questions are actually rhetorical, since he doesn't really seem to read the answers anyway...so I believed there to be no point in answering them...again.
There's still a few you haven't answered.

And I've said: Good for you, or other who've done well with AA. I have stated from the beginning that it would not work for me, as an atheist, because of it's heavy reliance on spritituality...to the point where your beloved Big Book actually states that you cannot succeed unless you embrace a Higher Power (don't fucking ask for proof...I've given it already, as have others...so get over it). Therefore, ATHEISTS (not to be confused with agnostics) are not going to succeed unless they stop being Atheists. And a secular court, in a secular nation, should not be forcing ATHEISTS to 'convert' to some brand of spirituality. Get it? Got it? Good. I'm done.
I know a dude in AA who's been sober for 30 years. He doesn't believe in a higher power yet still keeps coming back to meetings. Although he is a bit grumpy and probably uses the "f" word as much as you do.

Originally Posted by [NS:::]Elgesh
I reckon alcoholism is a behaviour, frequently harmful to the indiv and those around him/her, that arises from the stuff I mentioned above. To 'fix' it, look at the causes and mechanisms of that behaviour, and try and intervene appropriately.

AA does this in steps 1,4,5,8,9,10

Splendid! Can't see that it's compatible with an 'alcoholism is a disease' mentality, or needs a 'higher power' to appeal to. But to each their own; just don't force people to join in the crappier bits (via court order) and we're laughing.

That is subject for further debate. I suggest that it is not a religious program.


Actually, I do see the "ORIGINAL" point of the thread, but apparently you do not.


That is not what the original poster stated. Being an atheist, he/she was complaining about AA in regards to a higher power. The OP stated nothing in regards to court orders. As a matter of fact, Drunk Commies was the first to mention about court orders in post 22.

Prior to that, the slam on AA was about the higher power thing from some atheists.

I fully understand the thrust of this thread.
Being the original poster, I acknowledged both that AA has helped some people but that AA is not for me due to it's belief in a higher power. I didn't think I'd have to spell out that some people are there against their will. There would be no point to my posting if AA were only a voluntary program.

Oh, your question about my daddy? No, I'm not going to answer it, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I've been saying this entire thread. It's a red herring on your part. Whether or not AA would work for my CATHOLIC FATHER has no bearing on whether it would:

a) work for me, as an atheist, or other atheists
b) be a good idea to have a secular court force people into a program based on spirituality

See how that works? I make a point, and stick to it...instead of letting you decide that the argument is actually about *x*.
If you came to AA you wouldn't be afraid to truthfully answer such hard hitting questions. As I said before people don't have to come to AA if when they go to court. They have the choice of going to jail. And didn't you say earlier you were "done"? :confused:

If you came to AA you wouldn't be afraid to truthfully answer such hard hitting questions.

Why are you so intrusive into someone's private life? What right do you have to expect civility with that attitude? You're assuming a degree of intimacy that does not exist.

If you came to AA you wouldn't be afraid to truthfully answer such hard hitting questions. As I said before people don't have to come to AA if when they go to court. They have the choice of going to jail. And didn't you say earlier you were "done"? :confused:
This thread is not for "hard hitting" personal questions. You need to quit it. This is not some cyber AA meeting.
Personal problems are just that, personal. If someone wants to discuss them they will but probably not on some random forum. Either stick to the issue or make up your own thread where you can administer whatever sort of group therapy you're into.

Elgesh']Why are you so intrusive into someone's private life? What right do you have to expect civility with that attitude? You're assuming a degree of intimacy that does not exist.

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.
Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life's terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.


For me, serenity began when I learned to distinguish between those things that I could change and those I could not. When I admitted that there were people, places, things, and situations over which I was totally powerless, those things began to lose their power over me. I learned that everyone has the right to make their own mistakes, and learn from them, without my interference, judgement, or assistance!

The key to my serenity is acceptance. But "acceptance" does not mean that I have to like it, condone it, or even ignore it. What it does mean is I am powerless to do anything about it... and I have to accept that fact.

Nor does it mean that I have to accept "unacceptable behavoir." Today I have choices. I no longer have to accept abuse in any form. I can choose to walk away, even if it means stepping out into the unknown. I no longer have to fear "change" or the unknown. I can merely accept it as part of the journey.

This thread is not for "hard hitting" personal questions. You need to quit it. This is not some cyber AA meeting.
Personal problems are just that, personal. If someone wants to discuss them they will but probably not on some random forum. Either stick to the issue or make up your own thread where you can administer whatever sort of group therapy you're into.
There wasn't any personal question involved in there. I said if you come to AA you can face truths that you can't face elsewhere.

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.
Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life's terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.


For me, serenity began when I learned to distinguish between those things that I could change and those I could not. When I admitted that there were people, places, things, and situations over which I was totally powerless, those things began to lose their power over me. I learned that everyone has the right to make their own mistakes, and learn from them, without my interference, judgement, or assistance!

The key to my serenity is acceptance. But "acceptance" does not mean that I have to like it, condone it, or even ignore it. What it does mean is I am powerless to do anything about it... and I have to accept that fact.

Nor does it mean that I have to accept "unacceptable behavoir." Today I have choices. I no longer have to accept abuse in any form. I can choose to walk away, even if it means stepping out into the unknown. I no longer have to fear "change" or the unknown. I can merely accept it as part of the journey.

I'm as happy as I can be for someone I don't really know then!

But I don't see the relevance of your serenity here - do you think it gives you the right to pry/ smugly point out how cool you are?

There wasn't any personal question involved in there. I said if you come to AA you can face truths that you can't face elsewhere.
You have asked very personal questions of Sinuhue and myself. You know what we are talking about when we say that you delve into personal lives in a very arrogant and inappropriate manner.

Being the original poster, I acknowledged both that AA has helped some people but that AA is not for me due to it's belief in a higher power. I didn't think I'd have to spell out that some people are there against their will. There would be no point to my posting if AA were only a voluntary program.
Your original post stated nothing about courts and yes, you would have to spell it out for those of us who are not mind readers.

What I got out of your first post:

1. Alcoholism is an addiction, not a disease.
- I disagree, as does the AMA, CMA, and the WHO.

2. You "really disagree with is the Higher Power thing".
- I disagree with you because I do believe in a Higher Power, who I call God. If alcoholics can find a Higher Power and it keeps them sober, then more power to them.

3. "Mentally unstable people medicating themselves with alcohol".
- Those who are over "medicatng" themselves with alcohol and drugs are suffering from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.

4. "People do stop drinking in the program."
- Yea. I do agree with you there. However, AA is not for everyone.

5. "it's also a case of playing musical crutches."
- I don't understand the "musical" part of your analogy, and I don't see AA as a "crutch". AA supplies the alcoholic with a tool kit and they can and will stay sober if they use the tools of the program.

5. "it's also a case of playing musical crutches."
- I don't understand the "musical" part of your analogy, and I don't see AA as a "crutch". AA supplies the alcoholic with a tool kit and they can and will stay sober if they use the tools of the program.

Like musical chairs, moving from one crutch to another when the music stops/you're told to stop drinking and put your faith in that 'higher power'.

Elgesh']Like musical chairs, moving from one crutch to another when the music stops/you're told to stop drinking and put your faith in that 'higher power'.
Yet it has worked for millions of alcoholics over the past 70 years, crutch or no crutch, depending on the individual. Also, I don't think it is so much a matter of being told to stop drinking, as it is a matter that the individual WANTS to stop drinking.

Your definately not doing a good job learning from your mistakes. It seems like that whole admitting your powerless(step 1 by the way) has made you think you can act like an ass as if its not your fault. But it turns out being an ass is something you do have the power to control so take your life back into your own hands and stop being an ass.
Plator apologized and you turn around and insult him. Perhaps you could benefit from your own advice about being an ass?

Plator apologized and you turn around and insult him. Perhaps you could benefit from your own advice about being an ass?

Why are you bothering to respond to a post not even directed at you thats been dead and burried really? You trying to start another fight in the thread Mr. hypocrite? Honestly how many pages back was that man? What reason was there to reply to that other then to provoke me?

Oh, your question about my daddy? No, I'm not going to answer it, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I've been saying this entire thread. It's a red herring on your part. Whether or not AA would work for my CATHOLIC FATHER has no bearing on whether it would:
Actually since your father already believes in God, then it should be easy for you to answer the question, but of course that is your choice. BTW, in case you misunderstood, the question was not about "Whether or not AA would work for your CATHOLIC FATHER", it was:

"IF your father was able to get sober and stay sober through the program of AA, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?"

Actually since your father already believes in God, then it should be easy for you to answer the question, but of course that is your choice. BTW, in case you misunderstood, the question was not about "Whether or not AA would work for your CATHOLIC FATHER", it was:

"IF your father was able to get sober and stay sober through the program of AA, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?"
what is your problem? why don't you leave her alone?

If she wanted to talk about it she would. I am getting the impression (okay I got the impression a while ago) that you don't really care anyway, all you want to do is "win"

well, this isn't a "winnable" arguement from either side, so unless you have something new to add, then why not just drop it?

Being the original poster, I acknowledged both that AA has helped some people but that AA is not for me due to it's belief in a higher power. I didn't think I'd have to spell out that some people are there against their will. There would be no point to my posting if AA were only a voluntary program.

Though some people are court ordered to go to meetings, by and large, these people do not stay with the program after they attend their minimum number of meetings. They just go their own way after they are done. Frankly, the people who are in the program because they want to be there are embarrassed about having been put in that position of having to sign that damned paper for those that do get court ordered to be there. No-one will stop drinking unless they want that change in their life. And they know that nearly all of the people who are court ordered to be there are just doing it to get their jail sentence lessened and will go right back to drinking as soon as it is expedient for them to do so.The folks who do stay with A.A. do it quite willingly. They do it because it has worked for them when many, many other things did not. They are there because they want to be there.

My point is that A.A. IS a voluntary program. Saying or implying that it is anything but that is doing a terrible injustice to the program. Much like saying that doing any kind of community service is a bad thing just because people get court ordered at times to do that too. More to the point, A.A. has nothing whatsoever to do with their being told to come to the meetings. They receive no renumeration of any kind for their court ordered attendees. They would much rather they came there because they want sobriety. Often times in some cases, their appearence is even disruptive to the recovery of those who want to be there. And sometimes, sometimes they even come back later willingly.Trust me with this.

I said this before, and I'll say it once again.

You do not have to have a belief in God to participate in the program.

Your "higher power" can be anything you want it to be. Your spouse. The group you attend. A friend who wants to help. Literally anything. Anyone you decide to allow yourself to be accountable to. Please don't discourage people from going to a meeting because of their or your lack of faith in God. It is a tough enough decision to make without making it any harder.

Your "higher power" can be anything you want it to be. Your spouse. The group you attend. A friend who wants to help. Literally anything. Anyone you decide to allow yourself to be accountable to. Please don't discourage people from going to a meeting because of their or your lack of faith in God. It is a tough enough decision to make without making it any harder.
But courts disagree with his analysis, finding that the reference to God or a higher power in six of the 12 steps is, in fact, religious. The courts have also found that it is not only that many meetings begin and end with prayers, but that the fundamental nature of turning oneself over to a higher power is a religious conception.

From the article I posted a while back.

what is your problem?
I could ask you the same question.
why don't you leave her alone?
Perhaps if you read the whole thread, you might understand my line of questioning?

If she wanted to talk about it she would. I am getting the impression (okay I got the impression a while ago) that you don't really care anyway, all you want to do is "win"
Well sometimes "impressions" can be deceiving? Actually, I do care. I would think it would be great if her father could be cured of his alcoholism. My father died of alcoholism when he was 64 and I think it would have been great if he could have found salvation in AA long before then. When my father passed away his liver burst and he took on a yellow complexion. It wasn't very pretty and the image is embedded in my brain.

Alcoholism is a cruel and insidious disease and when I see people such as Sinuhue making statements such as "I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian." near the beginning of this thread, it prompted me to pose the question about her father.

well, this isn't a "winnable" arguement from either side, so unless you have something new to add, then why not just drop it?
This is not so much about winning a debate, it is about a search for the truth. Alcoholism is about life and death, and to see so many summarily dismiss the importance of AA without having solid facts, or quoting questionable material is kind of sad to say the least.

You never know who is reading these threads and what kind of impression one might leave on the readers.

So yeah, I really do care.

:) Though some people are court ordered to go to meetings, by and large, these people do not stay with the program after they attend their minimum number of meetings. They just go their own way after they are done. Frankly, the people who are in the program because they want to be there are embarrassed about having been put in that position of having to sign that damned paper for those that do get court ordered to be there. No-one will stop drinking unless they want that change in their life. And they know that nearly all of the people who are court ordered to be there are just doing it to get their jail sentence lessened and will go right back to drinking as soon as it is expedient for them to do so.The folks who do stay with A.A. do it quite willingly. They do it because it has worked for them when many, many other things did not. They are there because they want to be there.

My point is that A.A. IS a voluntary program. Saying or implying that it is anything but that is doing a terrible injustice to the program. Much like saying that doing any kind of community service is a bad thing just because people get court ordered at times to do that too. More to the point, A.A. has nothing whatsoever to do with their being told to come to the meetings. They receive no renumeration of any kind for their court ordered attendees. They would much rather they came there because they want sobriety. Often times in some cases, their appearence is even disruptive to the recovery of those who want to be there. And sometimes, sometimes they even come back later willingly.Trust me with this.

I said this before, and I'll say it once again.

You do not have to have a belief in God to participate in the program.

Your "higher power" can be anything you want it to be. Your spouse. The group you attend. A friend who wants to help. Literally anything. Anyone you decide to allow yourself to be accountable to. Please don't discourage people from going to a meeting because of their or your lack of faith in God. It is a tough enough decision to make without making it any harder.
I believe that you have made an excellent and well thought out post. Thank you!!

Though some people are court ordered to go to meetings, by and large, these people do not stay with the program after they attend their minimum number of meetings. They just go their own way after they are done. Frankly, the people who are in the program because they want to be there are embarrassed about having been put in that position of having to sign that damned paper for those that do get court ordered to be there. No-one will stop drinking unless they want that change in their life. And they know that nearly all of the people who are court ordered to be there are just doing it to get their jail sentence lessened and will go right back to drinking as soon as it is expedient for them to do so.The folks who do stay with A.A. do it quite willingly. They do it because it has worked for them when many, many other things did not. They are there because they want to be there.

My point is that A.A. IS a voluntary program. Saying or implying that it is anything but that is doing a terrible injustice to the program. Much like saying that doing any kind of community service is a bad thing just because people get court ordered at times to do that too. More to the point, A.A. has nothing whatsoever to do with their being told to come to the meetings. They receive no renumeration of any kind for their court ordered attendees. They would much rather they came there because they want sobriety. Often times in some cases, their appearence is even disruptive to the recovery of those who want to be there. And sometimes, sometimes they even come back later willingly.Trust me with this.

I said this before, and I'll say it once again.

You do not have to have a belief in God to participate in the program.

Your "higher power" can be anything you want it to be. Your spouse. The group you attend. A friend who wants to help. Literally anything. Anyone you decide to allow yourself to be accountable to. Please don't discourage people from going to a meeting because of their or your lack of faith in God. It is a tough enough decision to make without making it any harder.
I am accountable to no one but myself.

I could ask you the same question.

Perhaps if you read the whole thread, you might understand my line of questioning?


Well sometimes "impressions" can be deceiving? Actually, I do care. I would think it would be great if her father could be cured of his alcoholism. My father died of alcoholism when he was 64 and I think it would have been great if he could have found salvation in AA long before then. When my father passed away his liver burst and he took on a yellow complexion. It wasn't very pretty and the image is embedded in my brain.

Alcoholism is a cruel and insidious disease and when I see people such as Sinuhue making statements such as "I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian." near the beginning of this thread, it prompted me to pose the question about her father.


This is not so much about winning a debate, it is about a search for the truth. Alcoholism is about life and death, and to see so many summarily dismiss the importance of AA without having solid facts, or quoting questionable material is kind of sad to say the least.

You never know who is reading these threads and what kind of impression one might leave on the readers.

So yeah, I really do care.
Personal lives of others are not your concern.

There's still a few you haven't answered.
Nor will I. As I've mentioned, I feel his questions are actually rhetorical. And have nothing at all to do with the points I've made. I'm sticking to what I've said in this thread...I'm not being drawn into the completely different conversation Canuk seems to be having. With himself.

If you came to AA you wouldn't be afraid to truthfully answer such hard hitting questions. As I said before people don't have to come to AA if when they go to court. They have the choice of going to jail. And didn't you say earlier you were "done"? :confused:
Mind your own business. Was I talking to you? No.

Actually since your father already believes in God, then it should be easy for you to answer the question, but of course that is your choice. BTW, in case you misunderstood, the question was not about "Whether or not AA would work for your CATHOLIC FATHER", it was:

"IF your father was able to get sober and stay sober through the program of AA, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?"

Hmmm, apparently you don't actually read my answers, so I'll post it again:

Oh, your question about my daddy? No, I'm not going to answer it, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I've been saying this entire thread. It's a red herring on your part. Whether or not AA would work for my CATHOLIC FATHER has no bearing on whether it would:

a) work for me, as an atheist, or other atheists
b) be a good idea to have a secular court force people into a program based on spirituality

See how that works? I make a point, and stick to it...instead of letting you decide that the argument is actually about *x*.
What YOU seem to be misunderstanding is that I don't care about your argument, because you're not actually discussing the same topic as I am. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Alcoholism is a cruel and insidious disease and when I see people such as Sinuhue making statements such as "I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian." near the beginning of this thread, it prompted me to pose the question about her father.
Ok, you ask me a question about my FATHER when I make a statement about myself? How ridiculous can you get? Why don't you ask me a question about my born-again aunt while you're at it? Or my drug-selling neighbour? I made my statement, I applied it to myself, and it has to do with ME...not people around me. So bugger off with your pointless questions.

Ok, you ask me a question about my FATHER when I make a statement about myself? How ridiculous can you get? Why don't you ask me a question about my born-again aunt while you're at it? Or my drug-selling neighbour? I made my statement, I applied it to myself, and it has to do with ME...not people around me. So bugger off with your pointless questions.
I think I missed most of this thread.

Are you looking for an alcohol rehab program that doesn't involve 12-steps, i.e., doesn't involve a Judeo-Christian spin?

There's always the program offered by the Scientologists - ming you, they're a lot more aggressive about turning you into a Scientologist than solving a problem.

I think I missed most of this thread.

Are you looking for an alcohol rehab program that doesn't involve 12-steps, i.e., doesn't involve a Judeo-Christian spin?

There's always the program offered by the Scientologists - ming you, they're a lot more aggressive about turning you into a Scientologist than solving a problem.
The point I've been making since post #2:

A problem I have with AA is...what about atheist alcoholics who don't believe in a higher power? No...seriously. I struggle with the fear of alcoholism, because my father is an alcoholic, and I believe I could, under the wrong circumstances, follow in his footsteps if I let myself. But let's just say I become an alcoholic...okay wait, let's say, I wasn't native and I became an alcoholic (because there are healing programs for us based on our culture and spirituality...though that doesn't necessarily mean a higher power is involved at all)...what the heck could AA do for me?

Is that if I fell prey to addiction, I would seek out a treatment that helped me deal with MY problem as MY problem...rather than relying on a 'higher power' to get me out of it. I don't think I need to convert...and yes, as an atheist, believing in ANY higher power, no matter how nebulous, is akin to converting...at least to agnosticism if not to a particular religion...anyway, I shouldn't have to convert just so I could successfully deal with any addiction I might have. I don't care if it works for others...my point has always been that it would not work for me, and probably not for other atheists...true atheists that is. The religious talk in AA would alienate me from the program. So what could it do for me? Other than piss me off? Not much.

So what could it do for me? Other than piss me off? Not much.

Nearly all programs are either 12-step or you have to become a Scientologist.

Nearly all programs are either 12-step or you have to become a Scientologist.

Paucity of imagination in US treatment? Or?

Elgesh']Paucity of imagination in US treatment? Or?
Well, there's the Army way...

They force-feed you Antabuse, and you stop drinking alcohol unless you like the sensation of near death.

I could ask you the same question.
yep, you could.

Perhaps if you read the whole thread, you might understand my line of questioning?
I have been keeping up with it since the start. I just haven't been posting unless I had something intelligent to add. I don't understand what your line of questioning has to do with what is being discussed. Personal issues are personal.


Well sometimes "impressions" can be deceiving? Actually, I do care. I would think it would be great if her father could be cured of his alcoholism. My father died of alcoholism when he was 64 and I think it would have been great if he could have found salvation in AA long before then. When my father passed away his liver burst and he took on a yellow complexion. It wasn't very pretty and the image is embedded in my brain.
My dad died from his body being screwed up due to years of alchohol abuse too, I know it sucks, and seeing your parent that sick has an adverse effect on you, but that doesn't mean you get to try to push others into a discussion that they don't want to have.

Alcoholism is a cruel and insidious disease and when I see people such as Sinuhue making statements such as "I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian." near the beginning of this thread, it prompted me to pose the question about her father.
I didn't like the comment either, but some things are best left alone, esp. if you are going to get so emotionally involved as to make yourself an annoyance to others.


This is not so much about winning a debate, it is about a search for the truth. Alcoholism is about life and death, and to see so many summarily dismiss the importance of AA without having solid facts, or quoting questionable material is kind of sad to say the least.
I don't think they are dismissing it as much as having issues with it. There are people it doesn't work for (like me, and I was a Christian) and I do have a problem with courts that order such a religious program as a condition of probation.



You never know who is reading these threads and what kind of impression one might leave on the readers.
that's true.

So yeah, I really do care.
you might want to try a different approach, or if you can't, maybe just leave it alone.

Nearly all programs are either 12-step or you have to become a Scientologist.
There are, of course, other therapies available. Like individual therapy, which does not have to be at all religious. There are even small group therapies which are NOT 12 step....but they're harder to find. Poor people generally can't afford one on one therapy...unless subsidies are available.

Well, there's the Army way...

They force-feed you Antabuse, and you stop drinking alcohol unless you like the sensation of near death.
I'd take that over the 'soft conversion' of AA. YEAH, I SAID IT, AND IT APPLIES TO ME:p It'd probably work better.

There are, of course, other therapies available. Like individual therapy, which does not have to be at all religious. There are even small group therapies which are NOT 12 step....but they're harder to find. Poor people generally can't afford one on one therapy...unless subsidies are available.
There are at least in my state, NY, programs which offer treatment on a sliding scale but unfortunately, the counselors there are big fans of 12 steppin'. Luckily, I'm honest and in control enough to say, "No, thanks." I work it in a way that works for me. With the responsibility being mine alone and not being piled onto to some Higher Power (be it God, a group or an individual). I understand people of faith. I am not one of them. Not being one of them has yet to harm me.

Elgesh']I'm as happy as I can be for someone I don't really know then!

But I don't see the relevance of your serenity here - do you think it gives you the right to pry/ smugly point out how cool you are?
Alright someone finally called me cool!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:

You have asked very personal questions of Sinuhue and myself. You know what we are talking about when we say that you delve into personal lives in a very arrogant and inappropriate manner.
That's pretty presumptious to say I know what you are talking about. :confused:

But courts disagree with his analysis, finding that the reference to God or a higher power in six of the 12 steps is, in fact, religious. The courts have also found that it is not only that many meetings begin and end with prayers, but that the fundamental nature of turning oneself over to a higher power is a religious conception.

From the article I posted a while back.
Me thinks you misunderstood his argument. AA doesn't advocate forcing people who don't want to come to AA to come. That is government/court decision. Maybe you should write your congressman (or whatever gov't advocate you have if you are not from the US) and complain to him.

Me thinks you misunderstood his argument. AA doesn't advocate forcing people who don't want to come to AA to come. That is government/court decision. Maybe you should write your congressman (or whatever gov't advocate you have if you are not from the US) and complain to him.

If you read what I was replying to it wasn't the voluntary admission part. I know that AA doesn't put a gun to people's heads and say your going to the group and to my knowledge the courts can't force people to go to it any more. The post was in response to his bit about the higher power being able to be anything.

Alright someone finally called me cool!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:
:D

I am accountable to no one but myself.
How's that working out?

The point I've been making since post #2:



Is that if I fell prey to addiction, I would seek out a treatment that helped me deal with MY problem as MY problem...rather than relying on a 'higher power' to get me out of it. I don't think I need to convert...and yes, as an atheist, believing in ANY higher power, no matter how nebulous, is akin to converting...at least to agnosticism if not to a particular religion...anyway, I shouldn't have to convert just so I could successfully deal with any addiction I might have. I don't care if it works for others...my point has always been that it would not work for me, and probably not for other atheists...true atheists that is. The religious talk in AA would alienate me from the program. So what could it do for me? Other than piss me off? Not much.
What's a true atheist?
I think you do have a higher power - YOURSELF

What's a true atheist?
I think you do have a higher power - YOURSELF
Um, no. But thanks...it'd be nice to be a higher power.

How's that working out?
Very well.

That's pretty presumptious to say I know what you are talking about. :confused:
"Is it just me or do others get the feeling that DM here has been court ordered to attend AA. It seems to me that DM has what we in AA call a resentment. Resentments are deadliest thing to the alcoholic." -Plator

Intrusive questions elsewhere regarding Sinuhue's father and other questions and statements involving personal issues.

I'd take that over the 'soft conversion' of AA. YEAH, I SAID IT, AND IT APPLIES TO ME:p It'd probably work better.
So get a doctor to write the prescription, and have your husband make sure you take it every morning.

Personal lives of others are not your concern.
Using your yardstick, that applies to you as well?

Ok, you ask me a question about my FATHER when I make a statement about myself? How ridiculous can you get? Why don't you ask me a question about my born-again aunt while you're at it? Or my drug-selling neighbour? I made my statement, I applied it to myself, and it has to do with ME...not people around me. So bugger off with your pointless questions.
Hey, you are the one that has personalized this whole thread by providing details about your family, your culture, your fears, and your beliefs. When you toss in the negative comments that you have directed my way on top of all the foregoing, I can see that you have many issues to deal with. So I will leave it at that.

The good news is that I can always pray for you.

Hey, you are the one that has personalized this whole thread by providing details about your family, your culture, your fears, and your beliefs. When you toss in the negative comments that you have directed my way on top of all the foregoing, I can see that you have many issues to deal with. So I will leave it at that.

The good news is that I can always pray for you.

She's mentioned, several times, her atheism. At best, praying for her will make her laugh. And the way you put it, after listing what you see as her faults, would likely offend.

Don't pretend you're doing good, pal. It comes across as smug, self-satisfied arse-paradox.

Elgesh']She's mentioned, several times, her atheism.
I do understand this, as faith or lack thereof has been the focal point of this discussion.

Elgesh']At best, praying for her will make her laugh.
And laughter is a bad thing?

Elgesh']And the way you put it, after listing what you see as her faults, would likely offend.
I guess it is a matter of perception? You may see them as faults, where I see them as issues. My offer of prayer was not meant to be offensive.

Elgesh']Don't pretend you're doing good, pal.
When it comes to prayer, I do not pretend at all. I do believe in the power of prayer. At any rate, you are making assumptions about another persons feelings and predicting what her feelings might be. I find that rather presumptuous on your part.

Elgesh']It comes across as smug, self-satisfied arse-paradox.
I don't see it that way, but I do consider your rebuttal as such.

The comment I made was directed to her not you.

Hey, you are the one that has personalized this whole thread by providing details about your family, your culture, your fears, and your beliefs. When you toss in the negative comments that you have directed my way on top of all the foregoing, I can see that you have many issues to deal with. So I will leave it at that.

The good news is that I can always pray for you.
Well, that's about as useless to me as anything else you've said in this thread...but much less aggravating. So, enjoy.

You know, I never ever had a problem with you before this thread, and I have to admit that I'm shocked at the way you've gone on a holy rampage. I even questioned if someone had hijacked your account. ALL of my statement so far have been personal...about MY fear of alcoholism, (and the reason why I have such a fear, because of MY father), MY beliefs about religion and AA, and so forth. That is because throughout, I've been stating MY opinions. But there is a difference between needing to make it crystal clear for some particularly obstinant posters that my comments are based on my PERSONAL OPINIONS AND SITUATION and inviting the kind of comments you've been directing my way throughout. Don't be confused...I'm not getting intimate with you, nor am I inviting you to talk about my personal life. The only claim I've made outside of my opinions is that AA is overtly religious in nature. You've attempted, and failed, various times to disprove that fact. When you failed, you tried to attack my opinions...which is as ridiculous as arguing with someone who says, "I like cheese" by replying, "no you don't."

Elgesh']She's mentioned, several times, her atheism. At best, praying for her will make her laugh. And the way you put it, after listing what you see as her faults, would likely offend. I have no doubt it was meant to.

Well, that's about as useless to me as anything else you've said in this thread...but much less aggravating. So, enjoy.

You know, I never ever had a problem with you before this thread, and I have to admit that I'm shocked at the way you've gone on a holy rampage. I even questioned if someone had hijacked your account. ALL of my statement so far have been personal...about MY fear of alcoholism, (and the reason why I have such a fear, because of MY father), MY beliefs about religion and AA, and so forth. That is because throughout, I've been stating MY opinions. But there is a difference between needing to make it crystal clear for some particularly obstinant posters that my comments are based on my PERSONAL OPINIONS AND SITUATION and inviting the kind of comments you've been directing my way throughout. Don't be confused...I'm not getting intimate with you, nor am I inviting you to talk about my personal life. The only claim I've made outside of my opinions is that AA is overtly religious in nature. You've attempted, and failed, various times to disprove that fact. When you failed, you tried to attack my opinions...which is as ridiculous as arguing with someone who says, "I like cheese" by replying, "no you don't."


I find it odd. I'm very religious, and I would never suggest that you take a religious approach to any problem. I'm actually surprised that Canuck is religious, and engaging in the stereotypical Pat Robertson beat-you-over-the-head-with-a-Bible approach. Didn't think any Canadians bought into that.

I do understand this, as faith or lack thereof has been the focal point of this discussion.

And laughter is a bad thing? Oh SPARE me your constant bullshit questions. You know damn well what he's talking about.


At any rate, you are making assumptions about another persons feelings and predicting what her feelings might be. I find that rather presumptuous on your part.
Elgesh has actually been reading what I've been writing, and paying attention to it...unlike yourself apparently. Therefore, based on what I've said in this thread, Elgesh has an excellent grasp about what my feelings are likely to be in this case. And he was bang on. As ususal, you are not.

I find it odd. I'm very religious, and I would never suggest that you take a religious approach to any problem. I'm actually surprised that Canuck is religious, and engaging in the stereotypical Pat Robertson beat-you-over-the-head-with-a-Bible approach. Didn't think any Canadians bought into that.
I'm glad I'm not the only one taken aback by Canuk in this thread. Like I said, I've never had an inkling before that he was so pushy. There are MANY posters on NS that are quite religious, who I respect immensely and have had no such difficulties with. Why? Because they don't pretend that their belief system is the answer to all my 'issues'. I try to reciprocate by not cramming my atheism down their throats. In this case, however, my atheism is the sticking point for me ever accessing AA were it to become necessary, and therefore central to this topic. However, I at least have not said, "Oh, all you religious types, you should embrace atheism in order to overcome your addiction...or risk failing in your struggles.":rolleyes:

Oh, and as for there not being bible-thumping Canuks...think again. I live in one such town...it's scary.

Hey, you are the one that has personalized this whole thread by providing details about your family, your culture, your fears, and your beliefs. When you toss in the negative comments that you have directed my way on top of all the foregoing, I can see that you have many issues to deal with. So I will leave it at that.

The good news is that I can always pray for you.
I have general arguments against AA. Arguments any Athiest/Agnostic would have. Any personal information you learned about me was provided by me based on what I was comfortable talking about. I won't tolerate anyone prying into my life.
I'm good without your prayers but do what you like.
Edit: Shit... thought that was directed at me... too early in the morning.

Elgesh']She's mentioned, several times, her atheism. At best, praying for her will make her laugh. And the way you put it, after listing what you see as her faults, would likely offend.

Don't pretend you're doing good, pal. It comes across as smug, self-satisfied arse-paradox.
I join CH in his prayers for you as well Elgesh.

I find it odd. I'm very religious, and I would never suggest that you take a religious approach to any problem. I'm actually surprised that Canuck is religious, and engaging in the stereotypical Pat Robertson beat-you-over-the-head-with-a-Bible approach. Didn't think any Canadians bought into that.
It seems to me that CH is more spiritual than religious as he has not eluded to any organized religions in his arguments for a higher power.

Jumping Jesus on a pogo Stick!

I can't believe we have 22 pages of people defending the psuedo-cult aspects of AA.

Jumping Jesus on a pogo Stick!

I can't believe we have 22 pages of people defending the psuedo-cult aspects of AA.
You don't see me defending it, do you?

Jumping Jesus on a pogo Stick!

I can't believe we have 22 pages of people defending the psuedo-cult aspects of AA.
People take their cults very seriously.

You don't see me defending it, do you?
If YOU started, I'd get really worried...

People take their cults very seriously.

Cults?

Are you insane?

That is completely and totally irresponsible trash talking. Lashing out from a position of ignorance and predjudice. Try going to an A.A. meeting. As an observer. Talk to some people who have been through the program first. Then if you still feel that way, I would respect your opinion somewhat more. A.A. saves lives. I don't care if you agree with their philosophy or methods or not. It works. I have an ex-girlfriend who's dead now, because she wouldn't seek help for her drinking problem. Because she listened to pompous, self-righteous people like you who speak without thinking first. And I am positive there are thousands just like her.

Frickin' Flamers..... (Beam me up Scotty. There's no intelligent life here. Kirk out.)

Cults?

Are you insane?

That is completely and totally irresponsible trash talking. Lashing out from a position of ignorance and predjudice. Try going to an A.A. meeting. As an observer. Talk to some people who have been through the program first. Then if you still feel that way, I would respect your opinion somewhat more. A.A. saves lives. I don't care if you agree with their philosophy or methods or not. It works. I have an ex-girlfriend who's dead now, because she wouldn't seek help for her drinking problem. Because she listened to pompous, self-righteous people like you who speak without thinking first. And I am positive there are thousands just like her.

Frickin' Flamers..... (Beam me up Scotty. There's no intelligent life here. Kirk out.)

Um.

1. I've been to more than one AA meeting.

2. AA saves lives. So do other programs. The evidence is that other programs are as, if not more, effective.

3. Perhaps if AA weren't so cultish, your ex-girlfriend might have attended. There is evidence that the cultish aspects of AA turn people off. There is no evidence that they are essential to recovery.

4. I know people whose lives have been saved from alcoholism both with and without AA, so I am not speaking from ignorance.

Save your righteous indignation for someone that will fall for it.

Hi, it's me again. I have a request and a question.

A request--- Can we please refrain from calling AA a "cult." We've discusses at length the probability that it is, indeed, a religious organization, which is relevant to the thread. Articles were posted. Well developed arguments were presented, and I appreciate that sort of thing. The word "cult" though, carries such a negative connotation that it is frequently used as a smear. So, though the denotation for the word is (arguably) appropriate in discribing anonymous programs, might we refrain from using it? For civility's sake? I'd hate to see this thread dwindle into oblivion just because we're too busy attacking one another to discuss the issue at hand.

A question--- I wonder why the judge(s) who began this trend of mandatory AA meetings felt it was a good idea. Perhaps they hoped to help people, yes, but I doubt it was their only motivation. AA is free unless you want to give. Maybe someone decided this was a good way to address the need for treatment without spending any of states money?

[QUOTE=Thesys] A request--- Can we please refrain from calling AA a "cult." We've discusses at length the probability that it is, indeed, a religious organization, which is relevant to the thread. Articles were posted. Well developed arguments were presented, and I appreciate that sort of thing. The word "cult" though, carries such a negative connotation that it is frequently used as a smear. So, though the denotation for the word is (arguably) appropriate in discribing anonymous programs, might we refrain from using it? For civility's sake? I'd hate to see this thread dwindle into oblivion just because we're too busy attacking one another to discuss the issue at hand.
QUOTE]

Hear, hear. And, Cat-Tribe, my righteous indignation was not about getting you to "fall for it." This is not all about you. This is about treating others the way you want to be treated. It's about giving respect so that you can reasonably expect to receive it. Calling A.A. a "cult" is insulting.

Well, that's about as useless to me as anything else you've said in this thread...but much less aggravating. So, enjoy.
Oh good, I am less aggravating now and you are going to let it end there. How nice.

Oh wait, there is more......

You know, I never ever had a problem with you before this thread,
Likewise, but then, I never saw you trashing a life saving program before.

and I have to admit that I'm shocked at the way you've gone on a holy rampage.
Methinks you are now completely overstating my position, by suggesting that I am on some kind of "holy rampage". Trying to paint me as some kind of violent, uncontrolled religious zealot just doesn't wash and is a poor attempt at character assassination.

I even questioned if someone had hijacked your account.
I am sorry if I don't live up to your preconceived notions.

ALL of my statement so far have been personal...about MY fear of alcoholism, (and the reason why I have such a fear, because of MY father), MY beliefs about religion and AA, and so forth. That is because throughout, I've been stating MY opinions. But there is a difference between needing to make it crystal clear for some particularly obstinant posters that my comments are based on my PERSONAL OPINIONS AND SITUATION and inviting the kind of comments you've been directing my way throughout. Don't be confused...I'm not getting intimate with you, nor am I inviting you to talk about my personal life.
However, when you broadcast your "personal" stuff, you are making it common knowledge. Unless you specifically proclaim that you have no desire to discuss the "personal" matters that you have divulged, then one would not necessarily think that they would need an invitation to discuss those circumstances. If you don't want to discuss personal matters then why bring them forward?

The only claim I've made outside of my opinions is that AA is overtly religious in nature. You've attempted, and failed, various times to disprove that fact.
Actually, you have failed to prove that AA is "overtly religious".

And despite your claim, you have made comments about other people's belief systems, such as:

"A addresses only those who fool themselves into believing that their fate lies in the hands of a Higher Power."

"like actually TAKING control instead of giving it up to some imaginary friend in the sky."

Which leads to the hypocrisy of the following statement:

When you failed, you tried to attack my opinions...which is as ridiculous as arguing with someone who says, "I like cheese" by replying, "no you don't."

You have more than attacked my opinions, you have called me an "ass" among other things and have suggested that I am doing this for "giggles and shits" and I can quite assure you that nothing is further from the truth.

Actually, I'm almost certain I said, 'shits and giggles'.

I see you're back. My cup overfloweth.

Any new gems to share with us tonight?

Or are you going to keep asking questions?

And repeating your same 'points' over and over?

And going through everyone's post, but not actually reading them, just inserting rhetorical questions?

Wow. That's annoying. I think I'll stick to less questions, and more statements.

However, when you broadcast your "personal" stuff, you are making it common knowledge. Unless you specifically proclaim that you have no desire to discuss the "personal" matters that you have divulged, then one would not necessarily think that they would need an invitation to discuss those circumstances. If you don't want to discuss personal matters then why bring them forward? Funny, you seem to be one of the only people who doesn't seem to understand that stating my opinions is not a personal invitation for you to talk to me about my family. I think you may have finally gotten the hint, and will refrain from asking more pointless questions about my family, or getting me to speculate about any possible experiences my father might or might not have with AA...because none of that has anything to do with the fact that I am not my father, and I am not you, and what works for you, does not necessarily work for me, which is ALL I HAVE SAID FROM THE BEGINNING.


Actually, you have failed to prove that AA is "overtly religious". Riiiiiiggghhttt...all the articles that have been posted...you missed those? Or you want me to repost them for you so that "I" personally can prove to you something that is undeniably true? Oh wait...I shouldn't say undeniable. You seem to be attempting to deny it. Hmmm...let me rephrase...people who aren't LYING to themselves can't deny that AA is shot through with religious references and beliefs.

And despite your claim, you have made comments about other people's belief systems, such as:

"AA addresses only those who fool themselves into believing that their fate lies in the hands of a Higher Power."

"like actually TAKING control instead of giving it up to some imaginary friend in the sky." Yup. Both are my opinions. And....???

I find it odd. I'm very religious, and I would never suggest that you take a religious approach to any problem.
Obviously not since you are the bombs and bullet kinda guy. I would certainly never have guessed that you are "very religious", especially since you advocate the total annihilation of Afghanistan and North Korea.

I'm actually surprised that Canuck is religious,
Come on now DK, or WL, or Sierra, or whatever nick you go by these days, my siggy has been there like forever.

and engaging in the stereotypical Pat Robertson beat-you-over-the-head-with-a-Bible approach.
How could you possibly compare me with Pat Let's Assassinate Chavez Robertson (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm)?

Perhaps you forgot that I am against state sanctioned murders, the war in Iraq, bombs and bullets?

In future, please don't allow your obvious confusion to give you the false impression that you can slap a Pat Robertson tag on me.

Cults?

Are you insane?

That is completely and totally irresponsible trash talking. Lashing out from a position of ignorance and predjudice. Try going to an A.A. meeting. As an observer. Talk to some people who have been through the program first. Then if you still feel that way, I would respect your opinion somewhat more. A.A. saves lives. I don't care if you agree with their philosophy or methods or not. It works. I have an ex-girlfriend who's dead now, because she wouldn't seek help for her drinking problem. Because she listened to pompous, self-righteous people like you who speak without thinking first. And I am positive there are thousands just like her.

Frickin' Flamers..... (Beam me up Scotty. There's no intelligent life here. Kirk out.)
I did go. My father went, too. He didn't stop drinking until he got professional help. I'm not saying it doesn't work for some people. It does. But it replaces it with something else I have no interest in. It is cult-like to me. Read the entire thread... blame me for ignorance when you're bathing in it?

[QUOTE=Thesys] A request--- Can we please refrain from calling AA a "cult." We've discusses at length the probability that it is, indeed, a religious organization, which is relevant to the thread. Articles were posted. Well developed arguments were presented, and I appreciate that sort of thing. The word "cult" though, carries such a negative connotation that it is frequently used as a smear. So, though the denotation for the word is (arguably) appropriate in discribing anonymous programs, might we refrain from using it? For civility's sake? I'd hate to see this thread dwindle into oblivion just because we're too busy attacking one another to discuss the issue at hand.
QUOTE]

Hear, hear. And, Cat-Tribe, my righteous indignation was not about getting you to "fall for it." This is not all about you. This is about treating others the way you want to be treated. It's about giving respect so that you can reasonably expect to receive it. Calling A.A. a "cult" is insulting.
Supposing that AA is necessary for recovery for all individuals is much more insulting than hurting your feelings.

Supposing that AA is necessary for recovery for all individuals is much more insulting than hurting your feelings.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I truly do not believe that anyone suggested that "AA is necessary for recovery for all individuals". If such is the case then your comment is superfluous, and worthy of edit?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I truly do not believe that anyone suggested that "AA is necessary for recovery for all individuals". If such is the case then your comment is superfluous, and worthy of edit?
People have suggested this to me personally in ways that affect my life. Enough said.

Further:
"The religious cult Synanon directly grew out of a specific AA meeting. The Heaven's Gate cult of 39 suicides in 1998 in California was outright twelve-step. Alcoholics Anonymous grew out of and was a part of (at least in Ohio), a fundamentalist evangelical Christian cult or sect called the Oxford Group, which was discredited by more mainstream Christianity. That discrediting was before the group's founder's remarks in the 1930s praising Adolf Hitler: "Thank God for a man like Adolf Hitler." So the Oxford Group changed its name to Moral Re-Armament (MRA), which exists today, and which has the same type of hidden agenda as AA: the replacement of democracy with theocracy. MRA admits to wanting rule by God. The question is begged: Whose version of which God?"
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OBB/is_2_41/ai_100910100#continue

People have suggested this to me personally in ways that affect my life. Enough said.

Further: ~~Snip~~
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