NationStates Jolt Archive

Just saw the South Park episode last night dealing with this.
I've been to an AA meeting before and agree with much said on the show. I don't see alcoholism as a disease. I see mentally unstable people medicating themselves with alcohol, (Close family members), but alcoholism itself is not a disease. An addiction sure. People can also get addicted to over watering their house plants.
What I really disagree with is the Higher Power thing. It is possible to take full responsibility for your actions without relying on Heavenly Persons. I'm not saying that AA doesn't work when it comes to alcoholism, it does. People do stop drinking in the program. But it's also a case of playing musical crutches.

A problem I have with AA is...what about atheist alcoholics who don't believe in a higher power? No...seriously. I struggle with the fear of alcoholism, because my father is an alcoholic, and I believe I could, under the wrong circumstances, follow in his footsteps if I let myself. But let's just say I become an alcoholic...okay wait, let's say, I wasn't native and I became an alcoholic (because there are healing programs for us based on our culture and spirituality...though that doesn't necessarily mean a higher power is involved at all)...what the heck could AA do for me?

you needa moar disaprin.

A problem I have with AA is...what about atheist alcoholics who don't believe in a higher power? No...seriously. I struggle with the fear of alcoholism, because my father is an alcoholic, and I believe I could, under the wrong circumstances, follow in his footsteps if I let myself. But let's just say I become an alcoholic...okay wait, let's say, I wasn't native and I became an alcoholic (because there are healing programs for us based on our culture and spirituality...though that doesn't necessarily mean a higher power is involved at all)...what the heck could AA do for me?

Try and convert you.

you needa moar disaprin.
Damn! You sound exactly like the mother of a boss I had once...Sui Lin..

Try and convert you.
No offense for the offensive thing I'm about to say...but...

I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian.

Or a follower of any other religion.

A problem I have with AA is...what about atheist alcoholics who don't believe in a higher power? No...seriously. I struggle with the fear of alcoholism, because my father is an alcoholic, and I believe I could, under the wrong circumstances, follow in his footsteps if I let myself. But let's just say I become an alcoholic...okay wait, let's say, I wasn't native and I became an alcoholic (because there are healing programs for us based on our culture and spirituality...though that doesn't necessarily mean a higher power is involved at all)...what the heck could AA do for me?
My father was a born again christian for a while. The similarities between that church and AA meetings were striking. Especially the sort of forced brotherhood I felt when I went to both. Lots of fake smiling and passing around of phone numbers. I drink less. Much easier and less creepy.

No offense for the offensive thing I'm about to say...but...

I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian.

Or a follower of any other religion.

Me too.

Ouch, guy... hope you're doing well these days, best of luck for the future :)

I had no idea AA was spiritual at all! Much luck to them, but it does seem to be passing the buck a little; I would think it'd be better for your self esteem, from personal experience, to acknowledge your own failings and chart your own progress as you solve your own problems, surely?

The South park episode raised some serious questions concerning the contitutionality of enforced AA meetings from our courts. Of course, fellow Libertarians (as if you couldn't tell South Park's creators are members of the LP) Penn & Teller brought this up before in their episode of Busllshit! dealing with this issue. If you're interested, check it out (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12).

I went to AA to try to get help for my drug addiction, it didn't help me at all. Thier whole 'higher power' thing didn't mesh well with my idea of God.

They kept telling me "Let go and let God" which doesn't make any sense to me, I mean there are somethings that I "give to God" but they are things I have no control over at all, nothing like my addiction, I was very aware that I could control that, the difference is whether or not I was ready to.

I had to learn to quit "self medicating" and figure out what the heck was bothering me to begin with, and if I am not mistaken that isn't anywhere in the 12 steps.

Saying that I couldn't control it, that it was a disease, and that God would swoop down from heaven to help me didn't work for me, because I knew in my heart that I was responsible for my actions and that waiting around for rescue, or placing blame elsewhere was just going to make me want to get high again and again.

I had to make a decision, and I had to make a change. It wasn't going to work for me to sit and whine about "what life had handed me", I had to be the one to change it.

Every single day sucked for a while, and there were times (still are to be truthful) that I had to "focus on the minute" but knowing that I could stop gave me the confidence to quit.

No offense for the offensive thing I'm about to say...but...

I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian.

Or a follower of any other religion.

Me three.

Actually, though, my brother is a pretty serious alcy. He's even puts himself in hospital on a semi-regular basis.

I can take or leave drink, he, it seems, just can't. And there has to be more to it than just will-power: he occasionally drinks so much that he has seizures. He's also been told in no uncertain terms he is going to die within a few years. Still, he just can't stop.

To me it does seem like a mental illness when it's that severe. I can't imagine knowingly killing yourself over vodka.

Then again, perhaps I am misreading, and it is just a matter of will-power.

No offense for the offensive thing I'm about to say...but...

I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian.

Or a follower of any other religion.

And now that I think about it, they are just different ways of avoiding reality.

so AA isnt for everyone, its helped lots of people

my brother went to NA (narcotics anonymous) and it helped him very much. he said it didnt have the same emphasis on god but i expect it varies from chapter to chapter.

No offense for the offensive thing I'm about to say...but...

I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian.

Or a follower of any other religion.

Meh I'm not a christian, or an alcoholic.

At least if you're an alcoholic you can get help. Where do you go if you think you're becoming religious?

And now that I think about it, they are just different ways of avoiding reality.
My point exactly. I'm sorry to those of you who are religious...I'm not saying I think you're escaping reality, but for me, that's what it would be, because I really don't believe in a higher power. I could perhaps convince myself, but I would be lying to myself...it wouldn't last. I can throw myself into fantasy only so long.

Then again, perhaps I am misreading, and it is just a matter of will-power.
Some of it is genetic...you actually damage your DNA with substance abuse, and this can be passed down.(at least, that's what I've been told...I can't verify it's true) That's part of the reason they say it can be inherited. And they're starting to realise that the father has more of a role in this than previously believed. But I believe the bulk of the issue is social. For example, there has been research that both proves, and disproves that North American aboriginals have a genetic pre-disposition to alcohol addiction...so since the jury is out on that, I look to the other problems we face and think...you know, even if we did have that alcoholic gene, I doubt it would come out if we weren't living in poor communities full of all sorts of abuse, and suffering from accute cultural dislocation. People without support fall easier than those with support...but it is SO much more than just a simple addiction. The reasons for that addiction are predominantly social/emotional.

My point exactly. I'm sorry to those of you who are religious...I'm not saying I think you're escaping reality, but for me, that's what it would be, because I really don't believe in a higher power. I could perhaps convince myself, but I would be lying to myself...it wouldn't last. I can throw myself into fantasy only so long.

I was saying that they were escaping reality. I think that was largely the point of the SP episode, that they were replacing one crutch for another.

Some of it is genetic...you actually damage your DNA with substance abuse, and this can be passed down.(at least, that's what I've been told...I can't verify it's true) That's part of the reason they say it can be inherited. And they're starting to realise that the father has more of a role in this than previously believed. But I believe the bulk of the issue is social. For example, there has been research that both proves, and disproves that North American aboriginals have a genetic pre-disposition to alcohol addiction...so since the jury is out on that, I look to the other problems we face and think...you know, even if we did have that alcoholic gene, I doubt it would come out if we weren't living in poor communities full of all sorts of abuse, and suffering from accute cultural dislocation. People without support fall easier than those with support...but it is SO much more than just a simple addiction. The reasons for that addiction are predominantly social/emotional.

I had heard of the genetic link. Frankly, it's strange for my family, because he is the only one. The rest of us, though all drinkers - we have a very UK attitude towards alcohol - can take or leave it. (Except him). So it's hard to see where the genetic predisposition comes from. I suppose its one of those traits that only comes out with certain combinations. (Then again, I don't know all of my relatives that well, what with the extended family being spread across three continents, so it's possible someone is hiding something.)

I suppose my major difficulty with the whole thing is that I cannot imagine willingly engaging such self-destructive behaviour. Not being an addict like that, I just "don't get it", so from my perspective, it seems very much like a serious mental illness, not a lack of willpower.

I also realize that I am very fortunate in that he is my younger brother, so it's easier for me to deal with than, say, an alcholic parent. I can distance myself if I want, and I don't rely on him for support &c. Luckily he doesn't have children.

My point exactly. I'm sorry to those of you who are religious...I'm not saying I think you're escaping reality, but for me, that's what it would be, because I really don't believe in a higher power. I could perhaps convince myself, but I would be lying to myself...it wouldn't last. I can throw myself into fantasy only so long.
We're completely agreed.

what the heck could AA do for me?
The AA goosestepper running the meeting would end up beating you with a sharp and pointy stick to get you to renounce your heathen ways.

A friend of mine was ordered to attend AA due to his second DWI conviction. I drove him to a couple of meetings. I knew it was a religious organization, and fully expected some references to god and crap. At the end of the meetings the cultists would hold hands and say a prayer. Since I was an atheist, and only in attendance because I needed to drive my friend to and from his court ordered meetings I decided to sit that one out. One of the cultists tried to talk me into joining in and I politely told him "no thanks, I'm an atheist". He started to get angry and one of the cult meeting organizers had to step in and calm him down.

So... why the court orders? It seems everyone is agreed about the fuckedupness.

No offense for the offensive thing I'm about to say...but...

I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian.

Or a follower of any other religion.

That's not a very fair thing to say. Alcoholics are people who are unable to deal with the problems of the real world and take refuge in the comfortable illusions made possible by temporarily diminished reasoning skills.

Christians... Well, they can't sober up in the morning.

So... why the court orders? It seems everyone is agreed about the fuckedupness.
In the Theocratic States of America the courts are allowed and encouraged to send anyone who's convicted of an alcohol related crime to attend AA cult meetings. Anyone who fails to report can be found in contempt of court and given jail time.

That's not a very fair thing to say. Christians are people who are unable to deal with the problems of the real world and take refuge in the comfortable illusions made possible by temporarily diminished reasoning skills.

Alcoholics... Well, they can't sober up in the morning.
Mad Libs!!

No offense for the offensive thing I'm about to say...but...

I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian.

Or a follower of any other religion.

I knew someone who was an alcoholic and a Jehovas witness. He is quite possibly the most weak minded person in the world.

I knew someone who was an alcoholic and a Jehovas witness. He is quite possibly the most weak minded person in the world.
Or maybe he was the ultimate rebel. He stood up to the Jehova's Witnesses by drinking and stood up to his alcoholism by remaining a Jehova's Witness.

Just saw the South Park episode last night dealing with this.
I've been to an AA meeting before and agree with much said on the show. I don't see alcoholism as a disease. I see mentally unstable people medicating themselves with alcohol, (Close family members), but alcoholism itself is not a disease. An addiction sure. People can also get addicted to over watering their house plants.
What I really disagree with is the Higher Power thing. It is possible to take full responsibility for your actions without relying on Heavenly Persons. I'm not saying that AA doesn't work when it comes to alcoholism, it does. People do stop drinking in the program. But it's also a case of playing musical crutches.
I see that you have a lot of opinions, but what do you really know?

I see that you have a lot of opinions, but what do you really know?
Um? Lots of stuff, Mr. Heaven.

No offense for the offensive thing I'm about to say...but...

I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian.

Or a follower of any other religion.
Do AA members follow A religion?

this is worrying if you look at this topic as a whole. It seems to be suggested that if you wanted help with alcohlisim and didnt believe in God, you cant get help, as the only people helping will choke you with God.

Before i say what I'm about to say
1) The AA are doing a good job, to take time out your own life to help others can only help, so im not saying they are wrong
2) Im not saying people have no right to do something in the name of God
3) I'm not saying we need a nanny state
4) I dont follow any religoun, I do believe in "something" though
5) i cant spell

I think the government should play a part. If people are convicted of anything or need help they should have help availble and the government should set it up, that way they can keep it secular availble for everyone, even on the NHS. If you dont wanna go don't but at least it wuold be there for everyone not just religous people. Just an idea

Do AA members follow A religion?
You miss the point. They stress Higher Power as You Understand It in their step program. There is no Higher Power, in my opinion. They are heavily influenced by Christianity. And, the idea of a Higher Power is not needed when it comes to (dare I say it?) self-discipline.

Do AA members follow A religion?
The idea of a higher power is written into the 12 steps...but as far as I know they've successfully integrated various religious backgrounds, which is why I didn't just pick on Christianity as a religion I don't want to belong to. But even the idea of a higher power, removed from an overtly religious context, doesn't work for me.

Do AA members follow A religion?
Of course not! Just ask any of the brainwashed cult members. They'll tell you that despite being formed by conservative christians and led by such people AA cult is a spiritual, not religious, organization. If they were religious the government couldn't force people to attend their services or give them cash.

"You won't learn this in A.A.'s basic text today or in our meetings. But the simplicity of early A.A. will really astound you! Usually there was hospitalization or at least medical help to save the newcomer's life. Only the Bible was allowed in the room. Recovered drunks visited the patient and told their success stories. The newcomer had to identify, admit that he too was licked, and that he would do whatever it took. Dr. Bob visited daily. Then, he would explain the disease as they then understood it; and, on the final day, asked two questions to which there was only one answer: (1) Do you believe in God? (2) Are you willing to get down on your knees and pray? The newcomer then gave his life to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior."

http://www.dickb.com/index.shtml

Dick B. is an active, recovered member of Alcoholics Anonymous; a retired attorney; and a Bible student. He has sponsored more than eighty men in their recovery from alcoholism. Consistent with A.A.'s traditions of anonymity, he uses the pseudonym "Dick B."

http://www.dickb.com/author.shtml

I knew it was a religious organization,
It is? Please explain.

At the end of the meetings the cultists would hold hands and say a prayer.
Cultists? What cult?

Oh, and I first found out that AA had a religious slant when I worked at a Distress Line...we had a database of community resources, and AA was under 'Christian Organisations'. The Blue Book is rife with religious references.

You miss the point. They stress Higher Power as You Understand It in their step program. There is no Higher Power, in my opinion. They are heavily influenced by Christianity. And, the idea of a Higher Power is not needed when it comes to (dare I say it?) self-discipline.
How do I miss the point? Because you say that there is no higher power, there isn't one?

How do you know what others need in their life?

The idea of a higher power is written into the 12 steps...but as far as I know they've successfully integrated various religious backgrounds, which is why I didn't just pick on Christianity as a religion I don't want to belong to. But even the idea of a higher power, removed from an overtly religious context, doesn't work for me.
Yet it works for millions of others?

Oh, and I first found out that AA had a religious slant when I worked at a Distress Line...we had a database of community resources, and AA was under 'Christian Organisations'. The Blue Book is rife with religious references.
And when you worked at "Distress Line", did you direct those with alcoholic problems to AA?

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol ... that our lives had become unmanageable.

"I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out." (Romans 7:18)

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

"... my grace is sufficient for you, for my POWER is made perfect in weakness." (2 Corinthians 12:9)

..for it God Who works in you to will and act according to His good purpose.. (Phil. 2:13)


3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of GOD as we understood Him.

"... If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." (Luke 9:23**)

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

"Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord." (Lamentations 3:40)

5. Admitted to GOD, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." (James 5:16)

6. Were entirely ready to have GOD remove all these defects of character.

"If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land." (Isaiah 1:19)

7. Humbly asked Him to remove all our shortcomings.

"Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will lift you up." (James 4:10)

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:23, 24**)

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Give and it shall be given you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Luke 6:38**)

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith GOD has given you." (Romans 12:3)

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with GOD as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will, and the power to carry that out.

"May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer." (Psalm 19:14)

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly..." (Col. 3:16)

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and practice these principles in all our affairs.

"Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:1-2)
**The words of Christ

http://www.alcoholicsvictorious.org/12-steps.html

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_BigBook_chapt4.pdf

"To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such a [spiritual experience] seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.

But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life---or else.

....That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God."

How do I miss the point? Because you say that there is no higher power, there isn't one?

How do you know what others need in their life?
They can take what they need however they need it. There should be no court order to accept a higher power.

Yet it works for millions of others?
Did I ever said I gave a shit if it did or not? I said from the beginning that AA wouldn't work for me, and why, and other atheists agreed that they'd have a problem with it as well. As well, DC brought up the good point that in a secular society, a religious-based organisation should not be a court-mandated requirement for recovery.

And when you worked at "Distress Line", did you direct those with alcoholic problems to AA?
Of course I did. Because AA was one of the only organisations set up to deal with alcoholism. What's your point?

They can take what they need however they need it. There should be no court order to accept a higher power.
Have you thought that perhaps maybe that (the court order) is just what that individual needed to save their life?

It is? Please explain.


Cultists? What cult?
It's a religious organization in my eyes because it requires the members (cultists) to recognize a god (higher power). It has prayers and religious rituals, like holding hands to recite the prayer at the end. That's enough to make it a religion in my mind.

It's a cult because it relies on some practices used by cult groups like the Hare Krishnas and such. The members are encouraged to share their "sins" with the group, to consult with other group members berfore making certain decisions, and are told that they're weak and powerless on their own. Their individuality is devalued and they are brought to rely on the group for a big part of their identity.

Have you thought that perhaps maybe that (the court order) is just what that individual needed to save their life?
A secular court ordering you to accept a higher power?

Have you thought that perhaps maybe that (the court order) is just what that individual needed to save their life?
No. There are other types of effective therapy.

Just saw the South Park episode last night dealing with this.
I've been to an AA meeting before and agree with much said on the show. I don't see alcoholism as a disease. I see mentally unstable people medicating themselves with alcohol, (Close family members), but alcoholism itself is not a disease. An addiction sure. People can also get addicted to over watering their house plants.
What I really disagree with is the Higher Power thing. It is possible to take full responsibility for your actions without relying on Heavenly Persons. I'm not saying that AA doesn't work when it comes to alcoholism, it does. People do stop drinking in the program. But it's also a case of playing musical crutches.


I remember a friend went to an AA meeting and I was talking to his sponser after. I asked about that because, I'm an agnostic that leans towards atheism and I had to ask.

He said the higher power could be anything, or anyone- not a God, but something you can put your trust into.

It could be the faith that things will naturally balance out and it can get better, without having a God or a grand design laid out. It can be the faith in the love of friends and family helping you through. It doesn't need to be a God, it could just be an idea, or a feeling you latch on to when the going gets tough.

I didn't attend the meeting, so I don't know what they said in there- but what the sponser said seemed to make sense.

Have you thought that perhaps maybe that (the court order) is just what that individual needed to save their life?

Anyone forced to try to quit will usually end up failing. Quiting anything needs to be that person's choice. They need to WANT it with every fiber of their being, usually after hitting rock bottom.

Sometimes rock bottom is the humiliation of having a judge tell you it's either prison or rehab in front of your family and loved ones. Sometimes that could be enough. But it's always better if the person makes the choice themselves.

I don't like that the courts almost always go with AA and the 12 step programs, there are other places you can go for help... and unless you have a really cool sponsor, it can feel like they're trying to force you to believe in something you might not want to.

Of course, then people can lie and say they believe, but if you start lying about one thing during rehab, it becomes easier to lie about other things, and what's the point of that?

Have you thought that perhaps maybe that (the court order) is just what that individual needed to save their life?

I would think that's likely!

But the point is that that court order is obliging the poor sod in question to accept that there's some sort of supernatural Being out there he has to accept and promise ot placate.

What if the poor sod in question doesn't accept such Beings exist in the first place?

Why does a program to relieve alcoholism need to rely on spiritualiaty at all, let alone one like this?

I remember a friend went to an AA meeting and I was talking to his sponser after. I asked about that because, I'm an agnostic that leans towards atheism and I had to ask.

He said the higher power could be anything, or anyone- not a God, but something you can put your trust into.

It could be the faith that things will naturally balance out and it can get better, without having a God or a grand design laid out. It can be the faith in the love of friends and family helping you through. It doesn't need to be a God, it could just be an idea, or a feeling you latch on to when the going gets tough.

I didn't attend the meeting, so I don't know what they said in there- but what the sponser said seemed to make sense.
That's fine for someone who subscribes to that.

Of course I did. Because AA was one of the only organisations set up to deal with alcoholism. What's your point?
So then, AA is good for some people?

Yet it works for millions of others?
I have a book at home that lists statistics for AA. They're not much better at saving alcoholics than going cold turkey is. Meanwhile they sabotage efforts of more effective treatment groups to keep all that sweet government money and member donations to themselves.

So then, AA is good for some people?
Of course. That wasn't the point of the thread.

So then, AA is good for some people?
Look, instead of edging around it, why don't you come out and say what you want? Because I'm out of here in a few minutes, and I'd like to wrap this up.

1) It helps some people.
2) It doesn't help all people who go to it. Not even close.
3) It would not help me, and apparently, other atheists.
4) I don't support it being a court-ordered program, because it is religious in nature.

Clear enough?

Elgesh']But the point is that that court order is obliging the poor sod in question to accept that there's some sort of supernatural Being out there he has to accept and promise ot placate.
You perhaps are making an assumption? Perhaps the judge realizes that no matter what this person does, they cannot get sober or if they do get sober, is unable to stay sober, therefore the judge sends that person to those best qualified to help them achieve sobriety?

Elgesh']What if the poor sod in question doesn't accept such Beings exist in the first place?
Does that mean that person could never change?

Elgesh']Why does a program to relieve alcoholism need to rely on spiritualiaty at all, let alone one like this?
If you don't know, then perhaps you need to do a little more research to find out what makes AA as successful as it is?

snip

The first time I've ever said this, but you shouldn't be replying to _my_ post - Sinuhue's deserves your time :)

I have a book at home that lists statistics for AA.
Reference please.

They're not much better at saving alcoholics than going cold turkey is.
You have proof?

Meanwhile they sabotage efforts of more effective treatment groups to keep all that sweet government money and member donations to themselves.
How do they "sabotage" other efforts?

What treatment groups are "more effective"?

AA gets "goverment money"?

You perhaps are making an assumption? Perhaps the judge realizes that no matter what this person does, they cannot get sober or if they do get sober, is unable to stay sober, therefore the judge sends that person to those best qualified to help them achieve sobriety?


Does that mean that person could never change?


If you don't know, then perhaps you need to do a little more research to find out what makes AA as successful as it is?
AA isn't that successful. AA members relapse at about the same rate as people who quit on their own as I recall. I'll post exact statistics tomorrow because they're from a book and it's at home.

AA also blocks the implementation of treatment programs that have a better track record and less religious bullshit attatched.

A secular court ordering you to accept a higher power?
The court order is to attend an AA meeting, not get a higher power?

AA isn't that successful. AA members relapse at about the same rate as people who quit on their own as I recall. I'll post exact statistics tomorrow because they're from a book and it's at home.

AA also blocks the implementation of treatment programs that have a better track record and less religious bullshit attatched.
I would be interested in your material and look forward to your post.

The court order is to attend an AA meeting, not get a higher power?

But AA tells you to 'get a Higher Power'! Ergo, knowing this, the court is telling you to.

No. There are other types of effective therapy.
There are? What methods do these other therapies employ?

Look, instead of edging around it, why don't you come out and say what you want? Because I'm out of here in a few minutes, and I'd like to wrap this up.

1) It helps some people.
2) It doesn't help all people who go to it. Not even close.
3) It would not help me, and apparently, other atheists.
4) I don't support it being a court-ordered program, because it is religious in nature.

Clear enough?
Well, because you were saying that "you have a problem with AA", doesn't mean that others do? So, because you are an atheist and do not believe that the program would be good for you, you are against the court ordering a person to attend AA, even though it might be good for them? Why is that?

There are? What methods do these other therapies employ?
From a registered therapist maybe? They usually focus on the individual. Getting him/her/it to understand why they do this thing that they do and then helping them see how they can stop.

Well, because you were saying that "you have a problem with AA", doesn't mean that others do? So, because you are an atheist and do not believe that the program would be good for you, you are against the court ordering a person to attend AA, even though it might be good for them? Why is that?
Re-read thread.

From a registered therapist maybe? They usually focus on the individual. Getting him/her/it to understand why they do this thing that they do and then helping them see how they can stop.
And these "registered therapists" are more successful than AA?

Re-read thread.
I read the whole thread, and Sinuhue states her problem, but that is her problem. Because it might not work for her does not mean it won't work for others, so why run it down?

And these "registered therapists" are more successful than AA?
I don't think there is a statistic representing individual therapists with their success rates of alcohol dependency versus those of AA. I'm telling you the problem I have with AA. I'm also telling you that it is not the right of a Judge to make someone go to AA. I wouldn't mind if it were an option with alternatives offered such as individual therapy of the alcoholics choice. Or other less, Higher Powerish groups.

I read the whole thread, and Sinuhue states her problem, but that is her problem. Because it might not work for her does not mean it won't work for others, so why run it down?

Perhaps some people have a problem with the government a inherently secular institution forcing people to go to what is inherently a religious institution. Thats the gist I'm getting from the thread.

And these "registered therapists" are more successful than AA?

"In fact, in clinical trials in which alcoholics are randomly assigned to different treatments, neither 12-step treatment nor AA has ever been found superior to a tested alternative treatment. Indeed, in most cases, the reverse has been true"

http://www.peele.net/lib/drunk.html

"AA admits that fully 95 percent of those who try AA drop out within the first year. The study wherein they admit this is the triennial survey. For twenty-one years, now, AA's triennial survey has shown between a 94- and 96-percent dropout rate for the first year."

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9830.htm

"a report written by a client who had undergone treatment in a VA hospital states that 11 of 12 patients in his 28-day program had previously undergone inpatient treatment, and that one of the recidivists had been in treatment 19 times"

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/chapter7.htm

Elgesh']"In fact, in clinical trials in which alcoholics are randomly assigned to different treatments, neither 12-step treatment nor AA has ever been found superior to a tested alternative treatment. Indeed, in most cases, the reverse has been true"

http://www.peele.net/lib/drunk.html

"AA admits that fully 95 percent of those who try AA drop out within the first year. The study wherein they admit this is the triennial survey. For twenty-one years, now, AA's triennial survey has shown between a 94- and 96-percent dropout rate for the first year."

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9830.htm

"a report written by a client who had undergone treatment in a VA hospital states that 11 of 12 patients in his 28-day program had previously undergone inpatient treatment, and that one of the recidivists had been in treatment 19 times"

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/chapter7.htm
OK... so there were studies done.

I don't think there is a statistic representing individual therapists with their success rates of alcohol dependency versus those of AA.
Then you are unable to determine then, which nethod is best for the alcoholic?

I'm telling you the problem I have with AA.
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, be it right, wrong or indifferent?

I'm also telling you that it is not the right of a Judge to make someone go to AA.
It must be their "right" or they wouldn't be able to do it? And, if it ends up helping that person, what is wrong with that? Perhaps a better question to ask would be.....why DO judges send people to AA? Perhaps it has a proven track record that beats the alternatives?

I wouldn't mind if it were an option with alternatives offered such as individual therapy of the alcoholics choice. Or other less, Higher Powerish groups.
Because you have a problem with the higher power thing, then your will should be followed, even though you may be wrong?

Then you are unable to determine then, which nethod is best for the alcoholic?


Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, be it right, wrong or indifferent?


It must be their "right" or they wouldn't be able to do it? And, if it ends up helping that person, what is wrong with that? Perhaps a better question to ask would be.....why DO judges send people to AA? Perhaps it has a proven track record that beats the alternatives?


Because you have a problem with the higher power thing, then your will should be followed, even though you may be wrong?
1.Studies have been done in this thread since my post which support my view.

2. OK.

3. It has thinly disguised religious foundations. The track record isn't so impressive with a 96% first year drop out rate. Because Judges continue to do something I feel is wrong, doesn't make me think they are less wrong judged solely on their perseverance.

4. My will should be followed in regards to myself. Anyone else who disagrees with this theology backed organization should be allowed to voice their disagreement, protest it and refuse it's treatment.

1.Studies have been done in this thread since my post which support my view.

2. OK.

3. It has thinly disguised religious foundations. The track record isn't so impressive with a 96% first year drop out rate. Because Judges continue to do something I feel is wrong, doesn't make me think they are less wrong judged solely on their perseverance.

4. My will should be followed in regards to myself. Anyone else who disagrees with this theology backed organization should be allowed to voice their disagreement, protest it and refuse it's treatment.
Yes, there are apparently posts that would support your view, and of course there are others that would refute what many have stated in this thread. It has been apparent that several athiests or those that lean to that persuasion would be the least likely inclined to believe in a program of spirituality that advocates a higher power, and hence their outright rejection and a desire to minimalize the potential of AA.

Apparently, earlier AA had a far greater ratio of recovery than is the norm today, and this is clearly pointed out by Dick B. in this article:

AA And Its Success Rates—A Contemporary Brief (http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/print.php?artID=601)

If you take the time to read the whole article, it nicely confirms this message:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."

He details "the path" and qualifies his success.

The similarities between that church and AA meetings were striking.
What similarities?

Especially the sort of forced brotherhood I felt when I went to both.
How is AA a "forced brotherhood"?

Lots of fake smiling and passing around of phone numbers.
How do you know their smiles were "fake"?

I drink less.
From what I understand, alcoholism is a progressive illness.

Much easier and less creepy.
What is creepy about AA?

Just saw the South Park episode last night dealing with this.
I've been to an AA meeting before and agree with much said on the show. I don't see alcoholism as a disease. I see mentally unstable people medicating themselves with alcohol, (Close family members), but alcoholism itself is not a disease. An addiction sure. People can also get addicted to over watering their house plants.
What I really disagree with is the Higher Power thing. It is possible to take full responsibility for your actions without relying on Heavenly Persons. I'm not saying that AA doesn't work when it comes to alcoholism, it does. People do stop drinking in the program. But it's also a case of playing musical crutches.

1. I agree with you about the Higher Power thing. It turns me off.

2. But if it works for some, what harm does it do (in terms of them)?

3. Alcoholism is a form of mental illness. It is a disease.

3. Alcoholism is a form of mental illness. It is a disease.

I would tend to agree with that. But from what I have seen, as much as society pays lip-service to that idea, it is certainly not treated that way very often. I do not imagine that if someone were to propose some form of "step" program, or encouraged others to accept a higher power, as a treatment for bi-polar disorder or clinical depression, that it would be greeted with much enthusiasm, or as widely tolerated as AA currently is, regardless of the results.

If we accept that it is a mental illness, I believe we should try and treat it on a more formal clinical footing. I also think that its time to more fully explore medication options for treatment.

That's just me though.

I would tend to agree with that. But from what I have seen, as much as society pays lip-service to that idea, it is certainly not treated that way very often. I do not imagine that if someone were to propose some form of "step" program, or encouraged others to accept a higher power, as a treatment for bi-polar disorder or clinical depression, that it would be greeted with much enthusiasm, or as widely tolerated as AA currently is, regardless of the results.

If we accept that it is a mental illness, I believe we should try and treat it on a more formal clinical footing. I also think that its time to more fully explore medication options for treatment.

That's just me though.

Actually, I've known mental hospitals to put their other mental patients in AA and NA programs.

But I think that is just laziness more than anything else.

The whole AA cult thing has really skewed society's view of alcoholism.

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."

That's like saying that an alcoholic that goes cold turkey stops being an alcoholic by never drinking. What a surprise. Obviously if you have the willpower to stop drinking you're 'on the path'.

That's like saying that an alcoholic that goes cold turkey stops being an alcoholic by never drinking. What a surprise.
An alcoholic never stops being an alcoholic.

Obviously if you have the willpower to stop drinking you're 'on the path'.
Not according to Dick B.

Yes. Addictions. Geeze... america is so not free as far as what it was founded for. Geeze @_@ this fourm really opened my eyes sort of.
I thought america was like uber religious freedom.. wow...
I don't understand why is life so hard there that people want to hold onto religion so much in that country?
Must be the oppressive gov't. ^^;

That's like saying that an alcoholic that goes cold turkey stops being an alcoholic by never drinking. What a surprise. Obviously if you have the willpower to stop drinking you're 'on the path'.

Yeah. You've got to love that self-fullfilling definition of success.

If the person doesn't drink, the person is "on the path."

If AA fails, the person wasn't "on the path."

Another thing that bothers me about AA, is the lack of pastoral care the system offers. When someone "fails" under the system, it seems to be very much a matter of "so sad, too bad" as far as they are concerned.

It's all very well promising a "cure", but they are sort of like Richard Simmons, quickly losing any interest in those they promise to help if they don't get quick results with a cookie cutter approach to the problem.

The more I think about it, the less happy I am with it as a viable treatment option. And while it may very well work in particular cases, I don't feel it is suitable as the "one size fits all" approach it is currently believed to be.

Another thing that bothers me about AA, is the lack of pastoral care the system offers. When someone "fails" under the system, it seems to be very much a matter of "so sad, too bad" as far as they are concerned.
And how do you know this to be true?

It's all very well promising a "cure", but they are sort of like Richard Simmons, quickly losing any interest in those they promise to help if they don't get quick results with a cookie cutter approach to the problem.
AA is based on "quick results"?

The more I think about it, the less happy I am with it as a viable treatment option.
It must be a viable option if they can boast a membership of 2 Million?

And while it may very well work in particular cases, I don't feel it is suitable as the "one size fits all" approach it is currently believed to be.
As Dick B. wrote, AA is not all things to all people, and even suggests that it is not the only answer, just the best one for him.

What bothers me most about the attitude that "God saved me from booze" is that people don't give themselves credit. I mean, really, if you are a recovering alcoholic and you don't drink it's because you chose to stop drinking and through your efforts and your willpower, you have succeeded. So pat yourself on the back for a job well done, don't thank a deity that didn't do anything.*

I've also heard that in the AA program, it doesn't have to be a higher power, it can be someone in your life that is important enough to you that you will quit to make yourself better for them.

*I have the same issues when rockstars or actors thank god for awards too.

And how do you know this to be true?


AA is based on "quick results"?


It must be a viable option if they can boast a membership of 2 Million?


As Dick B. wrote, AA is not all things to all people, and even suggests that it is not the only answer, just the best one for him.

I'm sorry, but continuing to cite Dick B. regarding the success of AA is like asking the fox about chicken-coop security.

EDIT:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

Nothing could be further from the truth. Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

A 5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts.

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/mr/chap2.htm

What bothers me most about the attitude that "God saved me from booze" is that people don't give themselves credit. I mean, really, if you are a recovering alcoholic and you don't drink it's because you chose to stop drinking and through your efforts and your willpower, you have succeeded. So pat yourself on the back for a job well done, don't thank a deity that didn't do anything.*
Even though one may quit through their ability to do so, why can they not also thank their higher power?

I've also heard that in the AA program, it doesn't have to be a higher power, it can be someone in your life that is important enough to you that you will quit to make yourself better for them.
One can be by motivation through willingness to change one's own life by employing the concept of spirituality.

And how do you know this to be true?

Cat beat me too it. There is plenty of other literature that suggests the same. Even AA's "claimed" rate is atrocious.


AA is based on "quick results"?

Yup. They consider ten meetings to be on the path. That's pretty short time frame to stabilize someone with a chronic mental illness.


It must be a viable option if they can boast a membership of 2 Million?

Why? Given their 90% (possibly much higher failure rate), that indicates that there are at least 18 million alcholics who it didn't work for. Hardly impressive


As Dick B. wrote, AA is not all things to all people, and even suggests that it is not the only answer, just the best one for him.

Fine, it worked for him. I'm glad. It should be recognized that it is not working very well for the majority of others, however. Therefore, society should stop shovelling addicts into these programs, and start exploring other treatment options. You know, actually treating the problem.

I'm sorry, but continuing to cite Dick B. regarding the success of AA is like asking the fox about chicken-coop security.

EDIT:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

Nothing could be further from the truth. Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

A 5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts.

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/mr/chap2.htm
Yes, I did note that in a previous post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10068080&postcount=77)and Dick B. does concur for the most part.

He suggests that the most successful AAs are those that "thoroughly" follow the path, and he details that path. Certainly in the past, circa 1935, AA had stronger ties to a program of spirituality, and there certainly was less people who were cross addicted back then.

If a person is cross addicted and stays sober but still takes drugs, then they really are not on the spiritual path of recovery?

Cat beat me too it. There is plenty of other literature that suggests the same. Even AA's "claimed" rate is atrocious.
Where do I find a copy that states AA's "claimed rate"?

Yup. They consider ten meetings to be on the path. That's pretty short time frame to stabilize someone with a chronic mental illness.
Who is "they"?

Why? Given their 90% (possibly much higher failure rate), that indicates that there are at least 18 million alcholics who it didn't work for. Hardly impressive
And if there was no AA or at least a focus for recovery through a worldwide organization, would the recovery rate decline, or improve according to your opinion and why?

Fine, it worked for him. I'm glad. It should be recognized that it is not working very well for the majority of others, however.
What program is better then or has a higher success rate?

Therefore, society should stop shovelling addicts into these programs, and start exploring other treatment options.
What other treatment options? Alcoholism has been around since man could turn grapes into wine, and AA has attracted millions of people over the years. Is that because of its' rate of failure?

You know, actually treating the problem.
And what is the problem?

South Park actually educated me on AA and 12-stepping. I actually thought the 12 steps were...you know...STEPS to helping yourself. Unfortunately, after hearing them, I was like, "Holy shit." Yes, I was naive, it's not something I looked into. AA is bullshit. (Watch Penn and Teller: Bullshit! they do an episode on this)

I actually thought the 12 steps were...you know...STEPS to helping yourself.
They aren't? Please explain.

AA is bullshit.
How so?

They aren't? Please explain.


How so?

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11. Sought though prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Okay, how exactly are these steps? First step right off basically says:

I'm a powerless piece of shit. Second step says only God can help me (let's face it, the higher being is the Judeo-Christian god, it's an organization started by a Christian nation). Third step same thing. YOU CAN"T DO IT ON YOUR OWN BECAUSE YOU"RE A WORTHLESS PIECE OF SHIT. Of course people are going to believe they're powerless...if you tell them they can't do it, mind over matter you know. And it goes on about self-humiliation. Why humiliate yourself? Isn't god the one who's going to cure you?:rolleyes:

Okay, how exactly are these steps? First step right off basically says:

I'm a powerless piece of shit. Second step says only God can help me (let's face it, the higher being is the Judeo-Christian god, it's an organization started by a Christian nation). Third step same thing. YOU CAN"T DO IT ON YOUR OWN BECAUSE YOU"RE A WORTHLESS PIECE OF SHIT. Of course people are going to believe they're powerless...if you tell them they can't do it, mind over matter you know. And it goes on about self-humiliation. Why humiliate yourself? Isn't god the one who's going to cure you?:rolleyes:
You know, I read those steps that you posted and not once in there did it say "YOU CAN"T DO IT ON YOUR OWN BECAUSE YOU"RE A WORTHLESS PIECE OF SHIT".

Where does it say anything about "self-humiliation"?

I guess you can't read between the lines. You're surrendering any chance of individuality or hope that you *can* help yourself and leaving all in the power of god. You're throwing away your confidence, and putting it the power of something else. Yes it is saying you're a worthless piece of shit because it's taking away your right to help yourself, and that you have no power, no self-control, nothing...

Where do I find a copy that states AA's "claimed rate"?

I think it's about 50%. There are many books on this.


Who is "they"?


And if there was no AA or at least a focus for recovery through a worldwide organization, would the recovery rate decline, or improve according to your opinion and why?

It would improve. Read the links that Cat posted. AA's success rate is actually lower than the rate of spontaneous remission.


What program is better then or has a higher success rate?

According to the FDA, support programs in conjunction with drug therapy are more succesful.

What other treatment options? Alcoholism has been around since man could turn grapes into wine, and AA has attracted millions of people over the years. Is that because of its' rate of failure?

Irrelevant. Leeches attracted millions of people at one point. So did the theory of the four humors.

And what is the problem?

Alcoholism. And AA isn't treating it. They don't even bother to asses whether or not intake is suffering from type I or type II alcoholism. I fail to see how effective treatment can be delivered without even examining these basic questions.

I guess you can't read between the lines. You're surrendering any chance of individuality or hope that you *can* help yourself and leaving all in the power of god. You're throwing away your confidence, and putting it the power of something else. Yes it is saying you're a worthless piece of shit because it's taking away your right to help yourself, and that you have no power, no self-control, nothing...
Well, you know, my dear departed Mom always used to say that God helps those that help themselves. I guess you can't see in those thwelve steps that the person has to be willing to help themself to enable themselves to make their lives better.

If a person follows these steps and they get off the booze, clean themselves up and improve their life, who are you to say that it is "bullshit"?

I think it's about 50%. There are many books on this.
Name one.

Yup. They consider ten meetings to be on the path. That's pretty short time frame to stabilize someone with a chronic mental illness.
Again, I ask, who is "they"?

It would improve. Read the links that Cat posted. AA's success rate is actually lower than the rate of spontaneous remission.
I don't know if I buy that at this time due to the counter claim by Dick B., in that there are difficulties in tracking AA members today compared to back in the earlier years when there were far less members.

According to the FDA, support programs in conjunction with drug therapy are more succesful.
Do you have a link that supports this?

Irrelevant. Leeches attracted millions of people at one point. So did the theory of the four humors.
Somehow your analogy does not relate to the topic at hand. If AA is such a failure, why does it have a worldwide membership that continues to grow?

Alcoholism. And AA isn't treating it. They don't even bother to asses whether or not intake is suffering from type I or type II alcoholism. I fail to see how effective treatment can be delivered without even examining these basic questions.
AA isn't a treatment program. There are no tests. Members join a fellowship and those that rigorously follow the program have a greater chance of recovery.

you needa moar disaprin.
lmao dude...awesome quote. re-watched that episode today at a halo2 LAN party. we were all repeating that quote for the rest of the nite

Well, because you were saying that "you have a problem with AA", doesn't mean that others do? So, because you are an atheist and do not believe that the program would be good for you, you are against the court ordering a person to attend AA, even though it might be good for them? Why is that?
Because, though it may be a wonderful program for religious people, it is NOT a wonderful program for atheists. I am against the court ordering someone to attend, because ours is not a secular state, and a religious organisation should not be endorsed by the state. When going to AA becomes part of your sentence, you are being FORCED into a spiritual program. I feel that is a violation of human rights...just as I would feel if a religious person was ordered into a program that stressed atheism.

If you take the time to read the whole article, it nicely confirms this message:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."

He details "the path" and qualifies his success.
And those that refuse to 'follow' their path? The path of spirituality? How successful was it with them? Jesus Christ Canuk...AA might have helped you or someone you know, but that in no way invalidates the argument I, and others made saying:

1) It wouldn't work for us because of it's focus on religion
and
2) We don't think a secular state should be advocating religious organisations.

What part of this do you NOT understand?

AA isn't a treatment program. There are no tests. Members join a fellowship and those that religiously follow the program have a greater chance of recovery.
I fixed this for you. Bold mine.

CanukHeaven, you are being an ass. All we've said from the beginning is that we don't believe in AA's methods, and we don't support their religious methods being sanctioned and abetted by a secular government. You can go right on and defend them from perceived attacks...it's not going to make any of us decide to join AA, or encourage other atheists to do so. AA addresses only those who fool themselves into believing that their fate lies in the hands of a Higher Power. And spare me your constant questions..."who says that?" "who promotes that?"...it's all there in the Blue Book. Disguise it all you like, you have not once addressed the issue that AA is a RELIGIOUS ORGANISATION that DEMANDS you accept a higher power...and that this demand will not fly with those that refuse the concept of a higher power...people like myself. I don't care if it helped you or a thousand others...it wouldn't help me, or a thousand others. So you enjoy your AA...I'll find other methods of controlling my drinking problem. More personal ways...you know...like actually TAKING control instead of giving it up to some imaginary friend in the sky.

Because, though it may be a wonderful program for religious people, it is NOT a wonderful program for atheists. I am against the court ordering someone to attend, because ours is not a secular state, and a religious organisation should not be endorsed by the state.
You keep referring to AA as a "religious" organization. What religion is AA affiliated with?

When going to AA becomes part of your sentence, you are being FORCED into a spiritual program. I feel that is a violation of human rights...just as I would feel if a religious person was ordered into a program that stressed atheism.
Since you don't believe that the courts should "force" anyone to attend AA meetings, do you think that chronic alcoholics should be "forced" to attend ANY treatment program?

You keep referring to AA as a "religious" organization. What religion is AA affiliated with?

Since you don't believe that the courts should "force" anyone to attend AA meetings, do you think that chronic alcoholics should be "forced" to attend ANY treatment program?

It's "generic Christian". Most 12-step programs are.

You keep referring to AA as a "religious" organization. What religion is AA affiliated with?Christianity, and you know it. Your attempts to pretend that AA does not have a religious base is ridiculous. Does it exclude religious non-Christians? No. But that makes it no less a Christian-based system of belief.


Since you don't believe that the courts should "force" anyone to attend AA meetings, do you think that chronic alcoholics should be "forced" to attend ANY treatment program?
Did I ONCE say that? I've stated the reason for my objection over and over....you can continue to deliberately 'miss' it, but I'm not going to keep restating myself so that you can keep up your little 'question period with no point'.

And those that refuse to 'follow' their path? The path of spirituality? How successful was it with them?
According to Dick B., it is more successful for those that "thoroughly followed their path". Like any committment, it depends on the individuals' willingness as to their chances of recovery.

1) It wouldn't work for us because of it's focus on religion
Are you suggesting that because it won't work for you because you are an athiest, then it cannot work for ANY atheist?

2) We don't think a secular state should be advocating religious organisations.
What religious affiliation does AA have?

What part of this do you NOT understand?
I do understand your concerns but why do you want to put down the fellowship of AA, if indeed they are helping people to recover from alcoholism and to lead normal, happy lives?

Christianity, and you know it. Your attempts to pretend that AA does not have a religious base is ridiculous. Does it exclude religious non-Christians? No. But that makes it no less a Christian-based system of belief.
From what I understand, AA is based on a program of spirituality and belief in a higher power but is not affiliated with any particular religious organization and has no emphasis on the Bible, the Koran, or any other "religious" testament.

Did I ONCE say that? I've stated the reason for my objection over and over....you can continue to deliberately 'miss' it, but I'm not going to keep restating myself so that you can keep up your little 'question period with no point'.
I understand fully your objection to AA because you are an atheist, yet you seem to suggest that as an Indian, you have ways to heal yourself, IF you became an alcoholic, based on your Indian "culture and spirituality (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10065749&postcount=2)". Isn't Indian spirituality based on belief in the "Creator"?

You seem to be contradicting yourself?

By the time people come to AA they are ready to try and do anything to get their life back in order. I know I was. I was at the point which many alcoholics/addicts reach when they can't live with drinking and can't live without drinking. They are at a jumping off point and the only way to get your life back is to come to AA. AA is NOT RELIGIOUS based. It is SPIRITUAL based. A higher power does not mean Jesus, God, The Great Creator, etc. When I first got to AA I used the power of all the people (the fellowship) I met as my higher power. All these people wanted to help me and they were not asking for anything back. As the days passed I soon grew to believe in a higher power that I understood myself - I do choose to call that higher power God. Just because God is easy to say - hey it's just one sylable and it's easy to remember. The main text book for AA is called Alcoholics Anonymous (first published in 1939) aka The Big Book. There is a chapter dedicated entirely to the atheist and agnostic. (Google Big Book and you will find it). Ever ask yourself this if: lots of people say they hate God and don't believe in him/her. How can you hate something you don't believe in? It was easy for me to find a higher power because the first part of the first step in AA is to admit I was powerless over alchol. If something as mundane as alcohol could be more powerful than myself then there has to be something bigger out there. Lastly if you want to find a higher power greater than yourself then just stick your tongue into an electric wall socket. :eek:

Lastly if you want to find a higher power greater than yourself then just stick your tongue into an electric wall socket. :eek:
Shocking!! Simply shocking young Plator. :)

Elgesh']Ouch, guy... hope you're doing well these days, best of luck for the future :)

I had no idea AA was spiritual at all! Much luck to them, but it does seem to be passing the buck a little; I would think it'd be better for your self esteem, from personal experience, to acknowledge your own failings and chart your own progress as you solve your own problems, surely?
One of the main things of AA is to take responsibility for your own actions. It does tell you that once you believe in a higher power you have no accountability. There are several steps within the 12 steps where you look at yourself, the things you have done and the motives behind what you have done. There is also a step where you make amends to the people/insitutions you have harmed. Many people have admitted to crimes they have done, bitten the bullet and gone to prison to start a new sober life with a clear conscious.

I'm very happy to see Plator's in the 5% of alcholic people AA can help, well done mate! :) It must feel great to have beaten appalling odds like that, congrats:)

I went to AA to try to get help for my drug addiction, it didn't help me at all. Thier whole 'higher power' thing didn't mesh well with my idea of God.

They kept telling me "Let go and let God" which doesn't make any sense to me, I mean there are somethings that I "give to God" but they are things I have no control over at all, nothing like my addiction, I was very aware that I could control that, the difference is whether or not I was ready to.

I had to learn to quit "self medicating" and figure out what the heck was bothering me to begin with, and if I am not mistaken that isn't anywhere in the 12 steps.
.
I don't think you read the Big Book did you? Steps 4 and 5 deal with what you have just stated. You should probably go to Narcotics Anonyous. You'll fit in there. They are scared of the higher power thing and have watered down steps and a huge revolving door at the front of their meetings.

Reference please.


You have proof?


How do they "sabotage" other efforts?

What treatment groups are "more effective"?

AA gets "goverment money"?
This is going to be long. I'm going to type out an article in it's entirity written by Charles Bufe. If you really want answers and hard numbers read on. If you just want to cling to the myth that the AA cult is effective, non-religious, and not a scam you're better off skipping this.

AA Lies by Charles Bufe

There are probably more myths and misconceptions about Alcoholics Anonymous, America's most sacrosanct institutuion, than there are about any other mass organization in our country. Neglecting how this came to be, the primary misconceptions regarding AA are that:
1) AA is the most effective (or the only) way to deal with an alcohol problem
2) AA existed from the start as an independent organization
3) AA's co-founder, Bill Wilson, independently devised AA's "program", it's 12 steps.
4) AA is "spiritual, not religious"
5) AA is a completely voluntary organization - AA works by "attraction, not promotion"
6) AA has nothing to do with "outside enterprises" or "related facilities"
7) AA takes no position on matters of "public controversy"

AA's Effectiveness

AA's supporters commonly trumpet AA as the best, if not the only, way to deal with alcohol problems. To back their claims they cite anecdotal evidence and uncontrolled studies; but they ignore the best scientific evidence - the only available controlled studies of AA's effectiveness, as well as the results of AA's own triennial survey of it's members.

There have been only two controlled studies (with no-treatment comparison groups) of AA's effectiveness. Both of these studies indicated that AA attendance is no better than no treatment at all.

The first of these studies was conducted in San Diego in 1964 and 1965, and it's subjects were 301 "chronic drunk offenders". These individuals were assigned as a condition of probation to attend AA, to treatment at a clinic (type not specified) or to a no-treatment control group. All of the subjects were followed for at least a year after conviction, and the primary outcome measure was the number of rearrests during the year following conviction. The results were that 69 percent of the group assigned to AA was rearrested within a year; 68 percent of the clinic-treatment group was rearrested; but only 56 percent of the no-treatment control group was rearrested. Based on these resutls the authors concluded: "No statistically significant differences between the three groups were discovered in recidivism rate, in number of subsequent rearrests, or in time elapsed prior to rearrest."

The second controlled study of AA's effectiveness was carried out in Kentucky in the mid-1970s, and it's subjects were 260 clients "representative of the 'revolving door' alcoholic court cases in our cities" These subjects were divided into five groups: one was assigned to AA; a second was assigned to nonprofessionally-led Rational Behavior Therapy; a third was assigned to professionally-led Rational Behavior Therapy; a fourth was assigned to professionally-led traditional insight (Freudian) therapy; and the fifth group was the no-treatment control group. The individuals in these groups were given an outcome assessment following completion of treatment, and were then reinterviewed three, six, nine and twelve months later.

The results of this study were revealing: AA had by far the highest dropout rate of any of the treatment groups - 68 percent. In contrast the lay RTB group had a 40 percent dropout rate; the professionally-led RTB group had a 42 percent dropout rate; and the professionally-led insight group had a 46 percent dropout rate.

In terms of drinking behavior, 100 percent of the lay RTB group reported decreased drinking at the outcome assessment; 92 percent of the insight group reported decreased drinking; 80 percent of the professionally-led RTB group reported decreased drinking; and 67 percent of the AA attendees reported decreased drinking, whereas only 50 percent of the no-treatment control group reported decreased drinking.

But in regard to bingeing behavior, th egroup assigned to AA did far worse than any of the other groups, including the no-treatment control group. The study's authors reported: "The mean number of binges was significantly greater (p=.004) for the AA group (2.37 in the past 3 months) in contrast to both the control (.56) and lay-RTB group (.26). In this analysis, AA was [over 4] times [more] likely to binge than the control [group] and nine times more likely than the lay-RTB [group]. The AA average was 2.4 binges in the last 3 months since outcome.

It seems likely that the reason for this dismal outcome for the AA group was a direct result of AA's "one drink, one drunk" dogma, which is drummed into the heads of members at virtually every AA meeting. It seems very likely that this belief all too often becomes a self fullfilling prophecy, as it apparently did with the AA attendees in this study. The third significant piece of evidence against AA's effectiveness is that provided by AA's triennial membership surveys. In 1990 or 1991, AA produced an analysis of the previous five membership surveys, "Comments on AA's Triennial Surveys". This document revealed that 95 percent of those coming to AA drop out during their first year of attendance. Evin if all those who remain in AA stay sober (which often is not the case), this is still a poor success rate, even in comparison with the rate of spontaneous remission.



More to come later. It's a VERY long article.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol ... that our lives had become unmanageable.

"I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out." (Romans 7:18)

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

"... my grace is sufficient for you, for my POWER is made perfect in weakness." (2 Corinthians 12:9)

..for it God Who works in you to will and act according to His good purpose.. (Phil. 2:13)


3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of GOD as we understood Him.

"... If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." (Luke 9:23**)

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

"Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord." (Lamentations 3:40)

5. Admitted to GOD, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." (James 5:16)

6. Were entirely ready to have GOD remove all these defects of character.

"If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land." (Isaiah 1:19)

7. Humbly asked Him to remove all our shortcomings.

"Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will lift you up." (James 4:10)

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:23, 24**)

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Give and it shall be given you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Luke 6:38**)

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith GOD has given you." (Romans 12:3)

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with GOD as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will, and the power to carry that out.

"May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer." (Psalm 19:14)

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly..." (Col. 3:16)

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and practice these principles in all our affairs.

"Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:1-2)
**The words of Christ

http://www.alcoholicsvictorious.org/12-steps.html
You do know that the Old and New Testament (well not so new now) were written by men, maybe prophets, and not God. They were written during turbulent times in order for civilization to prosper. (See Spinoza).

According to Dick B., it is more successful for those that "thoroughly followed their path". Like any committment, it depends on the individuals' willingness as to their chances of recovery. Your appeal to an 'authority' on this isn't going to fly, so why don't you stop quoting Dick B?


Are you suggesting that because it won't work for you because you are an athiest, then it cannot work for ANY atheist?

What religious affiliation does AA have? I swear you're just doing this for shits and giggles...your constant REPEATED questions are annoying beyond belief...apparently you aren't actually reading my replies, so you know what? I'm going to stop expending effort. Unlike you, I detest having to repeat myself ad naseum.

It's a religious organization in my eyes because it requires the members (cultists) to recognize a god (higher power). It has prayers and religious rituals, like holding hands to recite the prayer at the end. That's enough to make it a religion in my mind.

It's a cult because it relies on some practices used by cult groups like the Hare Krishnas and such. The members are encouraged to share their "sins" with the group, to consult with other group members berfore making certain decisions, and are told that they're weak and powerless on their own. Their individuality is devalued and they are brought to rely on the group for a big part of their identity.
No one has to pray if they don't want to. I don't say the Lord's Prayer at any of the meetings I go to. One does not have to recognize anything if they don't want to. Everything in AA is a suggestion. Hey you're even told that if you don't like what you hear then go off and drink to your heart's conent. Members do not share their sins to everyone in the fellowship. If you choose to you share anything that is bothering you with a person of your own choosing. Have you ever thought that indivduality is a big part of society's problems. People only caring for themselves and not for their fellow men. (I was going to go into the whole Bush thing but my Higher Power stopped me :rolleyes: )

I understand fully your objection to AA because you are an atheist, yet you seem to suggest that as an Indian, you have ways to heal yourself, IF you became an alcoholic, based on your Indian "culture and spirituality (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10065749&postcount=2)". Isn't Indian spirituality based on belief in the "Creator"?

You seem to be contradicting yourself?
I'd only be contradicting yourself if my 'Indian culture and spirituality' fit into a nice little package. Why? Because I'm an atheist 'Indian'. I don't believe in the Creator. (by the way, are you aware that the majority of natives are Roman Catholic or Anglican?) My culture is based on community, and shared traditions...when you have a native healing circle, you don't need to believe in a Creator or a God...the focus is on your connection with the word according to our beliefs.

However, have I said that I would have 'ways to heal myself' because I'm an 'Indian'? No, I have not. So quit talking shit.

I have a book at home that lists statistics for AA. They're not much better at saving alcoholics than going cold turkey is. Meanwhile they sabotage efforts of more effective treatment groups to keep all that sweet government money and member donations to themselves.
You better check your stats. AA does not accept any money from any government or institution. It does rely on its members for donations. But that isn't much. It's enough for coffee/tea, donuts and to pay rent.

I don't think there is a statistic representing individual therapists with their success rates of alcohol dependency versus those of AA. I'm telling you the problem I have with AA. I'm also telling you that it is not the right of a Judge to make someone go to AA. I wouldn't mind if it were an option with alternatives offered such as individual therapy of the alcoholics choice. Or other less, Higher Powerish groups.
Not sure what they do down in the fascist US of A but up here in Canada you do get a choice. Go to AA or go to jail. There's always a choice. ;)

South Park actually educated me on AA and 12-stepping. I actually thought the 12 steps were...you know...STEPS to helping yourself. Unfortunately, after hearing them, I was like, "Holy shit." Yes, I was naive, it's not something I looked into. AA is bullshit. (Watch Penn and Teller: Bullshit! they do an episode on this)
It's interesting that you get your opinions from such credible resources. Do you get your news from Letterman and Leno as well?

You better check your stats. AA does not accept any money from any government or institution. It does rely on its members for donations. But that isn't much. It's enough for coffee/tea, donuts and to pay rent.
They get government funds through their front groups, The National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, and the American Society of Addiction Medicine.

It's interesting that you get your opinions from such credible resources. Do you get your news from Letterman and Leno as well?
Penn and Teller are following in the tradition of CSICOP and James Randi in exposing scams, pseudoscience, and other bullshit. AA is a scam and it's also based on religion and pseudoscience.

You keep referring to AA as a "religious" organization. What religion is AA affiliated with?


Since you don't believe that the courts should "force" anyone to attend AA meetings, do you think that chronic alcoholics should be "forced" to attend ANY treatment program?
1) The Oxford Group Movement, an evangelical Christian organization. They've taken steps to distance themselves from the group, but still use all the Oxford group's ideas in their "treatment".

2) Evangelical Christianity through the Oxford Group Movement.

They get government funds through their front groups, The National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, and the American Society of Addiction Medicine.
The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous
1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority — a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose — to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

9. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's interesting that you get your opinions from such credible resources. Do you get your news from Letterman and Leno as well?
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/default/en_about_aa_sub.cfm?subpageid=84&pageid=13

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

There are almost less references to God in the Catholic Rite of Confirmation.

The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous
1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority — a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose — to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

9. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the sections of the article I'm going to type later you will see AA's lies revealed. I just don't feel like typing the whole damn thing out in one stretch. You may have to wait until Tues. for the third installment because I'll be in Florida on Sun and Mon, but I'll include a second part this afternoon.

Continuation of article

AA Lies by Charles Bufe

There have been many studies of spontaneous remission (sometimes called spontaneous recovery), and one meta-analysis of such studies indicates that between 3.7 and 7.4 percent of individuals with Alcohol problems "spontaneously" recover in any given year. In comparison with this, AA's 5 percent retention rate is not impressive. And that 5 percent rate might be optimistic - it was derived from surveys conducted during a period of very high growth in AA membership. In contrast, since the mid- 1990s - a time when over one million Americans per year were, and still are, being coerced into AA attendance - AA's US membership has been essentially flat, hovering at around 1.16 to 1.17 million persons for the past few years. Even taking into account dropouts with "time" (from this "program for life"), this means that AA's current new-member retention rate could be well under 5 percent.

As for AA being the only way to beat an alcohol problem, it has been known for decades that alcoholism (alcohol dependence-as contrasted with mere alcohol abuse) disappears faster than can be explained by mortality after the age of 40. Also, a very large census bureau-conducted study in the early 1990s found that over 70 percent of the formerly alcohol-dependent individuals surveyed (over 4,500 in all) had recovered without participating in AA or attending treatment of any kind, and those who had not participated in AA or attended treatment had a higher rate of recovery than those who had.

As well, in contrast to AA and treatment derived from it (the dominant mode in the US), there are several types of treatment that are well supported by the best available scientific evidence (studies with random assignment of subjects and no -treatment control groups, and or comparison groups using standard 12-step treatment). Among the best-supported therapies are those known as the community reinforcement approach, social skills training, motivational enhancement, and brief intervention. All of these well-supported therapies are low-cost, cognitive-behavioral approaches in which alcohol abusers are reinforced in their belief that they have power over their own actions, and are responsible for them. (This is in direct contrast to the 12-step approach, which teaches alcohol abusers that they are "powerless"). Unfortunately, none of these effective, low-cost therapies is in common use in the United States, in which the 12-step approach dominates.

Finally, over the last quarter-century a number of "alternative" (non 12-step) recovery groups have arisen in the US, and many, many individuals have recovered through them. The four largest are SMART recovery, Women for Sobriety, Moderation Management, and Secular Organizations for Sobriety. Between them, they have hundreds of meetings scattered across the country, and all are easy to contact via the internet.

AA as an Independent Organization

One of the most widespread myths concerning AA is that it has existed as an independent organization from day one, from the day in 1935 that Bill Wilson met AA's other co-founder, Bob Smith in Akron, Ohio. When they met, Smith and Wilson were both members of the Protestant Evangelical group called the Oxford Group Movement (OGM). Convinced that Oxford Group principles were the key to overcoming alcohol abuse (and all other problems in life), they devoted themselves to carrying the Oxford Group message to other alcoholics. What they called "the alcoholic squadron of the Akron Oxford Group" remained as part of the Oxford Group Movement until 1939, and the group Bill Wilson founded in New York remained part of the Oxford Group Movement until late 1937.

The reason that AA parted ways with the Oxford Group Movement had nothing to do with differences over ideology; rather they had to do with personality conflicts, fear that Roman Catholics would be forbidden to join what was to become AA as long as it was part of a Protestant organization, and, quite possibly, embarrassment over OGM founder Frank Buchman's statements in a 1936 New York World Telegram interview, in which he said, "Thank heaven for a man like Adolph Hitler", and in which he pined for "a God controlled Fascist dictatorship"

More to come

My culture is based on community, and shared traditions...when you have a native healing circle, you don't need to believe in a Creator or a God...the focus is on your connection with the word according to our beliefs.
However, the "healing circle" is based on "spirituality" and the "supernatural"?

However, have I said that I would have 'ways to heal myself' because I'm an 'Indian'? No, I have not. So quit talking shit.
Well, you did imply that since you were Indian, you would have access to spiritual tools to help you overcome your addiction (if you had one):

But let's just say I become an alcoholic...okay wait, let's say, I wasn't native and I became an alcoholic (because there are healing programs for us based on our culture and spirituality...
I am just quoting what you have stated, so I don't see that as me "talking shit".

I struggle with the fear of alcoholism, because my father is an alcoholic, and I believe I could, under the wrong circumstances, follow in his footsteps if I let myself.
Why do you "struggle with the fear of alcoholism"?

Despite your apparent dislike for AA, allow me to ask you the following question:

IF your father was able to get sober and stay sober through the program of AA, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

You do know that the Old and New Testament (well not so new now) were written by men, maybe prophets, and not God. They were written during turbulent times in order for civilization to prosper. (See Spinoza).
I don't believe in God, therefore I also believe that He hasn't written any bestsellers.

In the sections of the article I'm going to type later you will see AA's lies revealed. I just don't feel like typing the whole damn thing out in one stretch. You may have to wait until Tues. for the third installment because I'll be in Florida on Sun and Mon, but I'll include a second part this afternoon.

Has an alternative to AA been given? It is doubtful any alchoholic will quit on their own so if they don't go to AA then what do they do? Of course it does not really matter since I'm sure that the court will sentence you to AA for any alcohol induced crimes anyway so you're stuck.

Look, if putting a dead beaver on your head, spinning around twelve times and chanting "Allejuhah!" helps you not to pick up a drink, I'd support that. I support AA as a choice for some people. It works for SOME people. But only as a choice. No one should be court ordered to accept a Higher Power. How can anyone possibly be against this line of thinking?

Has an alternative to AA been given? It is doubtful any alchoholic will quit on their own so if they don't go to AA then what do they do? Of course it does not really matter since I'm sure that the court will sentence you to AA for any alcohol induced crimes anyway so you're stuck.
An alternative has been given. Therapy.

Has an alternative to AA been given? It is doubtful any alchoholic will quit on their own so if they don't go to AA then what do they do? Of course it does not really matter since I'm sure that the court will sentence you to AA for any alcohol induced crimes anyway so you're stuck.
Read the second part of the article. It details several alternatives that have been shown to be more effective, and it shows that the rate of spontaneous recovery is equal to the rate of effectiveness in AA. AA is no better than going cold turkey.

An alternative has been given. Therapy.

Sounds like what AA is. You are a slave to your addiction, yada yada, you need to let others help, yada yada. I would really need to hear from someone firsthand that other approaches work since I've never suffered from addiction before myself.

Why do you "struggle with the fear of alcoholism"?

Despite your apparent dislike for AA, allow me to ask you the following question:

IF your father was able to get sober and stay sober through the program of AA, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

I know I shouldn't answer, but this is ridiculous.

CH, you've flogged this dead horse for ages now. Let it drop.

You've asked for eveidence that AA has a very low success rate. I gave it.

You asked what the problem Sinuhue had with spirituality in AA programs, and you've been answered, with exceptional patience, as you rephrased the same question again and again.

You asked what religion AA was affiliated with, and Desperate Measures and others answered you, with exceptional patience, as you etc etc.

You're looking like a fool, behaving like a troll, and advancing your argument not one iota. That's enough. Don't keep banging away with the exact same (disproved) points over and over in the hope everyone will get exasperated and leave, allowing you to claim some sort of moral victory. Bring something new, and maybe we'll have a debate.

Sounds like what AA is. You are a slave to your addiction, yada yada, you need to let others help, yada yada. I would really need to hear from someone firsthand that other approaches work since I've never suffered from addiction before myself.
You're hearing it first hand.

Sounds like what AA is. You are a slave to your addiction, yada yada, you need to let others help, yada yada. I would really need to hear from someone firsthand that other approaches work since I've never suffered from addiction before myself.
I tried AA and it didn't work for me. A therapist did help, and not a wimpy "how do you feel about that?" therapist either, she was more of a "your life is really screwed up, what are you going to do to change that?" type of therapist. She made me face the fact that I was screwing up and that I needed to do something about it. I am a completely different person now.

I tried AA and it didn't work for me. A therapist did help, and not a wimpy "how do you feel about that?" therapist either, she was more of a "your life is really screwed up, what are you going to do to change that?" type of therapist. She made me face the fact that I was screwing up and that I needed to do something about it. I am a completely different person now.

Alright. It definately sounds like a better tactic to have a person take responsibility for their own actions. The 'you're not at fault' crowd can get real tiresome.

Alright. It definately sounds like a better tactic to have a person take responsibility for their own actions. The 'you're not at fault' crowd can get real tiresome.
My dad was an alcoholic and the whole "it's a disease, and he can't help it" thing used to really make me mad.

when I went to get help for my addiction (read when I had to get help) and they started all that crap about me being "born into it" and "it's not your fault, you are wired that way" it gave me the worst feeling of hopelessness, if I can't help it, and it's a disease, and I am genetically this way, then life will never get better.

Knowing that I may have a rough time controling it (harder than most) but that I could with a lot of hard work overcome my addiction, helped me more than anything. I have been completely clean for almost 7 years now, and it's still hard work, but at least I know that my work will pay off. :)

My dad was an alcoholic and the whole "it's a disease, and he can't help it" thing used to really make me mad.

when I went to get help for my addiction (read when I had to get help) and they started all that crap about me being "born into it" and "it's not your fault, you are wired that way" it gave me the worst feeling of hopelessness, if I can't help it, and it's a disease, and I am genetically this way, then life will never get better.

Knowing that I may have a rough time controling it (harder than most) but that I could with a lot of hard work overcome my addiction, helped me more than anything. I have been completely clean for almost 7 years now, and it's still hard work, but at least I know that my work will pay off. :)
Good show, man.

Elgesh']I know I shouldn't answer, but this is ridiculous.

CH, you've flogged this dead horse for ages now. Let it drop.

You've asked for eveidence that AA has a very low success rate. I gave it.

You asked what the problem Sinuhue had with spirituality in AA programs, and you've been answered, with exceptional patience, as you rephrased the same question again and again.

You asked what religion AA was affiliated with, and Desperate Measures and others answered you, with exceptional patience, as you etc etc.

You're looking like a fool, behaving like a troll, and advancing your argument not one iota. That's enough. Don't keep banging away with the exact same (disproved) points over and over in the hope everyone will get exasperated and leave, allowing you to claim some sort of moral victory. Bring something new, and maybe we'll have a debate.
First and foremost, the question you have responded to was put forth to Sinuhue, not you.

I have not flamed anyone, yet have been flamed, please don't talk about "exceptional patience" if you cannot demonstrate such a principle?

I have asked questions, to challenge the posters knowledge, and convictions and in many cases I have found the answers suspect at best.

I don't seek any "moral victory", only the truth.

I know many people who have recovered through the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, and who this day, lead happy, productive lives. To see people run AA down because it doesn't jive with their brand of atheism is kind of sad to say the least.

First and foremost, the question you have responded to was put forth to Sinuhue, not you.

I have not flamed anyone, yet have been flamed, please don't talk about "exceptional patience" if you cannot demonstrate such a principle?

I have asked questions, to challenge the posters knowledge, and convictions and in many cases I have found the answers suspect at best.

I don't seek any "moral victory", only the truth.

I know many people who have recovered through the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, and who this day, lead happy, productive lives. To see people run AA down because it doesn't jive with their brand of atheism is kind of sad to say the least.
Nobody is trying to run AA down. Get it???
I am saying AA, not for me. AA should not be court ordered. End of story.

First and foremost, the question you have responded to was put forth to Sinuhue, not you.

I have not flamed anyone, yet have been flamed, please don't talk about "exceptional patience" if you cannot demonstrate such a principle?

I have asked questions, to challenge the posters knowledge, and convictions and in many cases I have found the answers suspect at best.

I don't seek any "moral victory", only the truth.

I know many people who have recovered through the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, and who this day, lead happy, productive lives. To see people run AA down because it doesn't jive with their brand of atheism is kind of sad to say the least.
How about if I run it down because it's ineffective and statistics and studies cited prove that fact? Are you really interested in the truth? Perhaps you're only interested in preserving your image of AA?

Nobody is trying to run AA down. Get it???
I am saying AA, not for me.
Even though you did admit that AA does work, you also did run it down:

What I really disagree with is the Higher Power thing. It is possible to take full responsibility for your actions without relying on Heavenly Persons. I'm not saying that AA doesn't work when it comes to alcoholism, it does. People do stop drinking in the program. But it's also a case of playing musical crutches.

AA should not be court ordered. End of story.
Do you think that the court should order any type of treatment program for alcoholics?

Even though you did admit that AA does work, you also did run it down:




Do you think that the court should order any type of treatment program for alcoholics?
I admitted it works for some people. Not for all.

I think some sort of treatment should be given. I think it should be up to the alcoholic to search for what works for them, perhaps with the help of the court or probation officer.

How about if I run it down because it's ineffective and statistics and studies cited prove that fact? Are you really interested in the truth? Perhaps you're only interested in preserving your image of AA?
How comprehensive were those studies, and when was the last one conducted?

There have been many studies of 12-step treatment, but the vast majority are of little use in determining treatment effectiveness for two reasons: 1) they lacked control groups; and 2) they were short- or medium-short-term studies. It’s impossible to draw meaningful conclusions about treatment’s effectiveness without control groups. And any apparent benefits from treat-ment tend to disappear with time. Thus, long-term studies utilizing control groups are necessary to determining the effectiveness of treatment. But there have been relatively few.

Of course I am interested in the truth, but the above seems to suggest that at best, studies are basically inconclusive due to a variety of reasons.

Perhaps one day, someone will take the time to conduct a comprehensive fact finding study? Until then, it just becomes a matter of opinion, and according to many posters in this thread, a push and pull strategy by the pro atheist and pro higher power posters.

Who has all the answers? God only knows. :)

I admitted it works for some people. Not for all.
Fair enough.

I think some sort of treatment should be given. I think it should be up to the alcoholic to search for what works for them, perhaps with the help of the court or probation officer.
Most alcoholics don't even want to admit that they have a problem, and yet you want them to select the type of program that they should attend?

Wouldn't that be the same as putting the fox in charge of the hen house?

How comprehensive were those studies, and when was the last one conducted?

There have been many studies of 12-step treatment, but the vast majority are of little use in determining treatment effectiveness for two reasons: 1) they lacked control groups; and 2) they were short- or medium-short-term studies. It’s impossible to draw meaningful conclusions about treatment’s effectiveness without control groups. And any apparent benefits from treat-ment tend to disappear with time. Thus, long-term studies utilizing control groups are necessary to determining the effectiveness of treatment. But there have been relatively few.

Of course I am interested in the truth, but the above seems to suggest that at best, studies are basically inconclusive due to a variety of reasons.

Perhaps one day, someone will take the time to conduct a comprehensive fact finding study? Until then, it just becomes a matter of opinion, and according to many posters in this thread, a push and pull strategy by the pro atheist and pro higher power posters.

Who has all the answers? God only knows. :)
Have you read the article? These studies are the only studies with control groups ever done on AA. They directly contradict the idea that AA is the most effective treatment. Also they plus other evidence cited in the article destroy the idea that AA is any more helpfull than going cold turkey. They have the same statistical success rate.

You said you'd be waiting for me to post the article. I've posted the first two parts, which involved me typing alot more than I like to, and you haven't even bothered to read them? Why should I even bother then? Clearly your mind's made up.

Fair enough.


Most alcoholics don't even want to admit that they have a problem, and yet you want them to select the type of program that they should attend?

Wouldn't that be the same as putting the fox in charge of the hen house?
This one particular program should not be court ordered to all people. If you are being court ordered for treatment, it is no longer up to you to admit or not admit you have a problem.

This one particular program should not be court ordered to all people. If you are being court ordered for treatment, it is no longer up to you to admit or not admit you have a problem.
It's kind of like someone converting to Catholicism under pain of torture from the inquisition, isn't it?

Have you read the article? These studies are the only studies with control groups ever done on AA. They directly contradict the idea that AA is the most effective treatment. Also they plus other evidence cited in the article destroy the idea that AA is any more helpfull than going cold turkey. They have the same statistical success rate.

You said you'd be waiting for me to post the article. I've posted the first two parts, which involved me typing alot more than I like to, and you haven't even bothered to read them? Why should I even bother then? Clearly your mind's made up.
I have read your articles and while they are informative, they are also lacking in answrs. In response to your Mr. Bufe:

Like Ragge’s work, Bufe’s study leaves unanswered the question why AA does work for the people for whom it works. Bufe at least sees the issue, unlike Ragge, and suggests that AA answers some people’s needs for structure and for authority, and that it relieves loneliness, and that its essential ingredient may be the placebo effect. These are of course intuitions and speculations only. A more penetrating book about AA would expose not only why and when AA appears to fail, but also why and when AA appears to be effective. It is not enough to array numbers showing that the proportion of alcoholics who are sober in AA is a minuscule proportion of all alcoholics. This minuscule proportion makes up a cluster of about three quarters of a million sober alcoholics (>5 years), a phenomenon quite unprecedented and unparalleled, and certainly deserving of explication. One will not find the answers, or really even the question, in Bufe’s work, any more than in Ragge’s.

I think that is a fair comment?

I have read your articles and while they are informative, they are also lacking in answrs. In response to your Mr. Bufe:

Like Ragge’s work, Bufe’s study leaves unanswered the question why AA does work for the people for whom it works. Bufe at least sees the issue, unlike Ragge, and suggests that AA answers some people’s needs for structure and for authority, and that it relieves loneliness, and that its essential ingredient may be the placebo effect. These are of course intuitions and speculations only. A more penetrating book about AA would expose not only why and when AA appears to fail, but also why and when AA appears to be effective. It is not enough to array numbers showing that the proportion of alcoholics who are sober in AA is a minuscule proportion of all alcoholics. This minuscule proportion makes up a cluster of about three quarters of a million sober alcoholics (>5 years), a phenomenon quite unprecedented and unparalleled, and certainly deserving of explication. One will not find the answers, or really even the question, in Bufe’s work, any more than in Ragge’s.

I think that is a fair comment?
I don't think it's a fair comment because Bufe shows that the percentage of people for whom AA works is statistically identical to the percentage of people who will spontaneously quit drinking. Therefore it's not unprecedented or unparalleled, it's exactly what you would expect whether these people had recieved AA or not.

Continuation of article

AA Lies by Charles Bufe



More to come
These other approaches may stop a person from drinking for long periods. But what kind of life are they living. Are they joyous, happy and free? Or are they just white knuckling it and are miserables SOBs. They usually end up drinking again and getting in worse trouble than before they stopped. AA deals with a problem larger than drinking. Alcohol is but a symptom of a larger disease. I'd rather be sober in AA then any of the times I was white knuckling it. AA has three million members world wide. Something must be working. To quote the great American author Kurt Vonnegut Jr, "America has contributed three great things to Western Civilization. The Bill of Rights; Roberts Rules of Order; Alcoholics Anonymous.

These other approaches may stop a person from drinking for long periods. But what kind of life are they living. Are they joyous, happy and free? Or are they just white knuckling it and are miserables SOBs. They usually end up drinking again and getting in worse trouble than before they stopped. AA deals with a problem larger than drinking. Alcohol is but a symptom of a larger disease. I'd rather be sober in AA then any of the times I was white knuckling it. AA has three million members world wide. Something must be working. To quote the great American author Kurt Vonnegut Jr, "America has contributed three great things to Western Civilization. The Bill of Rights; Roberts Rules of Order; Alcoholics Anonymous.
Kurt Vonnegut is a master of satire.

Elgesh']I know I shouldn't answer, but this is ridiculous.

CH, you've flogged this dead horse for ages now. Let it drop.

You've asked for eveidence that AA has a very low success rate. I gave it.

You asked what the problem Sinuhue had with spirituality in AA programs, and you've been answered, with exceptional patience, as you rephrased the same question again and again.

You asked what religion AA was affiliated with, and Desperate Measures and others answered you, with exceptional patience, as you etc etc.

You're looking like a fool, behaving like a troll, and advancing your argument not one iota. That's enough. Don't keep banging away with the exact same (disproved) points over and over in the hope everyone will get exasperated and leave, allowing you to claim some sort of moral victory. Bring something new, and maybe we'll have a debate.
When you get very upset over something or someone the problem usually lies within yourself. Hey - I learned that from AA.

I have read your articles and while they are informative, they are also lacking in answrs. In response to your Mr. Bufe:

Like Ragge’s work, Bufe’s study leaves unanswered the question why AA does work for the people for whom it works. Bufe at least sees the issue, unlike Ragge, and suggests that AA answers some people’s needs for structure and for authority, and that it relieves loneliness, and that its essential ingredient may be the placebo effect. These are of course intuitions and speculations only. A more penetrating book about AA would expose not only why and when AA appears to fail, but also why and when AA appears to be effective. It is not enough to array numbers showing that the proportion of alcoholics who are sober in AA is a minuscule proportion of all alcoholics. This minuscule proportion makes up a cluster of about three quarters of a million sober alcoholics (>5 years), a phenomenon quite unprecedented and unparalleled, and certainly deserving of explication. One will not find the answers, or really even the question, in Bufe’s work, any more than in Ragge’s.

I think that is a fair comment?

Not drinking does work for the people who cease drinking.

Elgesh']I know I shouldn't answer, but this is ridiculous.

CH, you've flogged this dead horse for ages now. Let it drop.

You've asked for eveidence that AA has a very low success rate. I gave it.

You asked what the problem Sinuhue had with spirituality in AA programs, and you've been answered, with exceptional patience, as you rephrased the same question again and again.

You asked what religion AA was affiliated with, and Desperate Measures and others answered you, with exceptional patience, as you etc etc.

You're looking like a fool, behaving like a troll, and advancing your argument not one iota. That's enough. Don't keep banging away with the exact same (disproved) points over and over in the hope everyone will get exasperated and leave, allowing you to claim some sort of moral victory. Bring something new, and maybe we'll have a debate.
You haven't answered CH's question regarding your father???? Afraid of the truth??

When you get very upset over something or someone the problem usually lies within yourself. Hey - I learned that from AA.

Yes of course I see it now. All those times I was angry or upset over us going to war with Iraq the problem lied within me. :rolleyes:

You haven't answered CH's question regarding your father???? Afraid of the truth??
Thats because its a different poster answering CH's post at Shinue. Try reading the post instead of acting like a fool.

Yes of course I see it now. All those times I was angry or upset over us going to war with Iraq the problem lied within me. :rolleyes:
You were helpless. Pray.

I tried AA and it didn't work for me. A therapist did help, and not a wimpy "how do you feel about that?" therapist either, she was more of a "your life is really screwed up, what are you going to do to change that?" type of therapist. She made me face the fact that I was screwing up and that I needed to do something about it. I am a completely different person now.
How long have you been sober? Are you using the marijuana maintenace program?

You were helpless. Pray.

lol

These other approaches may stop a person from drinking for long periods. But what kind of life are they living. Are they joyous, happy and free? Or are they just white knuckling it and are miserables SOBs. They usually end up drinking again and getting in worse trouble than before they stopped. AA deals with a problem larger than drinking. Alcohol is but a symptom of a larger disease. I'd rather be sober in AA then any of the times I was white knuckling it. AA has three million members world wide. Something must be working. To quote the great American author Kurt Vonnegut Jr, "America has contributed three great things to Western Civilization. The Bill of Rights; Roberts Rules of Order; Alcoholics Anonymous.
In the US, AA even with forced attendance through court orders, barely maintains it's number of members. People leave in droves. Why? Maybe because their approach is flawed. Making people believe that they're powerless isn't a great way to make them take control of their lives. Other methods seem to produce better results. Fewer arrests for alcohol related crimes, better attendance at meetings, more feeling of control over one's life.

Kurt Vonnegut may have liked AA, but the facts don't support AA as being any more effective than cold turkey, and show it to be much less effective than other programs.

Nobody is trying to run AA down. Get it???
I am saying AA, not for me. AA should not be court ordered. End of story.
Is it just me or do others get the feeling that DM here has been court ordered to attend AA. It seems to me that DM has what we in AA call a resentment. Resentments are deadliest thing to the alcoholic.

Is it just me or do others get the feeling that DM here has been court ordered to attend AA. It seems to me that DM has what we in AA call a resentment. Resentments are deadliest thing to the alcoholic.
First of all. No. I have not been court ordered to attend AA.
Second. My personal life is my own. What the fuck right do you have to pry into it?
Third. I'd think alcohol is the deadliest thing to an alcoholic.

Kurt Vonnegut is a master of satire.
This wasn't in one of his satrical novels. But if you feel that than maybe we should start running down the US Bill of Rights. I know George Bush doesn't believe in it with that Patriot Act he has (doh I couldn't help me self.)

Is it just me or do others get the feeling that DM here has been court ordered to attend AA. It seems to me that DM has what we in AA call a resentment. Resentments are deadliest thing to the alcoholic.

Its just you. And man that is a piss poor attempt at a cheap shot there. Stick to the topic not people's personal lives unless they decide to bring them in.

This wasn't in one of his satrical novels. But if you feel that than maybe we should start running down the US Bill of Rights. I know George Bush doesn't believe in it with that Patriot Act he has (doh I couldn't help me self.)
I'm sorry... Slapstick isn't a satirical novel??

Yes of course I see it now. All those times I was angry or upset over us going to war with Iraq the problem lied within me. :rolleyes:

The problem there lies in the fact that you have a resentment over a government you think you should have control over instead of accepting your powerlessness of events.

Thats because its a different poster answering CH's post at Shinue. Try reading the post instead of acting like a fool.

Doh! I digress and apologize. (Step 10 by the way).

In the US, AA even with forced attendance through court orders, barely maintains it's number of members. People leave in droves. Why? Maybe because their approach is flawed. Making people believe that they're powerless isn't a great way to make them take control of their lives. Other methods seem to produce better results. Fewer arrests for alcohol related crimes, better attendance at meetings, more feeling of control over one's life.

Kurt Vonnegut may have liked AA, but the facts don't support AA as being any more effective than cold turkey, and show it to be much less effective than other programs.
Recedivism (sp) in prisons goes way way way down (almost nil) for prisoners who enter into AA. As for court orders yeah people probably will leave in droves. As I stated previously, and it is written in AA literature, people won't be able to go to any measures and seek the truth until they have reached their bottom. But by forcing people to go to AA meetings a seed is planted for them to grasp on to when that bottom comes - and it will come.

The problem there lies in the fact that you have a resentment over a government you think you should have control over instead of accepting your powerlessness of events.
No my problem there is the fact that the government went into a country with a shitty reason that didn't pan out. It has nothing to do with wheter or not I should have had control over events. You seem to assume alot about the people here and you know what they say about assuming things.

Doh! I digress and apologize. (Step 10 by the way).
Your definately not doing a good job learning from your mistakes. It seems like that whole admitting your powerless(step 1 by the way) has made you think you can act like an ass as if its not your fault. But it turns out being an ass is something you do have the power to control so take your life back into your own hands and stop being an ass.

First of all. No. I have not been court ordered to attend AA.
Second. My personal life is my own. What the fuck right do you have to pry into it?
Third. I'd think alcohol is the deadliest thing to an alcoholic.
Are you getting a resentment towards me?? When I said resentments are deadliest thing to an alcoholic I meant one who is in recovery. See your just a drunk when your drinking but when you accept your disease and carry out the 12 steps your an alcoholic. Did you learn to use profanity in your arguments by the sames sources you get your info from - ie - South Park?

Are you getting a resentment towards me?? When I said resentments are deadliest thing to an alcoholic I meant one who is in recovery. See your just a drunk when your drinking but when you accept your disease and carry out the 12 steps your an alcoholic. Did you learn to use profanity in your arguments by the sames sources you get your info from - ie - South Park?
Carry on with what works for you. I don't appreciate you assuming things about me I haven't put forth to you. Quit it.
I use profanity when someone requires me to do so. It is used to create emphasis.

Are you getting a resentment towards me?? When I said resentments are deadliest thing to an alcoholic I meant one who is in recovery. See your just a drunk when your drinking but when you accept your disease and carry out the 12 steps your an alcoholic. Did you learn to use profanity in your arguments by the sames sources you get your info from - ie - South Park?

Are you always this passive aggressive? Jesus man, what the hell's wrong with you? Why are you turning this into such a personal thing?

No my problem there is the fact that the government went into a country with a shitty reason that didn't pan out. It has nothing to do with wheter or not I should have had control over events. You seem to assume alot about the people here and you know what they say about assuming things.

Any chance you voted for the evil one - Bush that is?

Your definately not doing a good job learning from your mistakes. It seems like that whole admitting your powerless(step 1 by the way) has made you think you can act like an ass as if its not your fault. But it turns out being an ass is something you do have the power to control so take your life back into your own hands and stop being an ass.
You should really learn to control your emotions. May I suggest you attend Emotions Anonymous. They have the same steps accept for the first one which states: We are powerless over our emotions...

Recedivism (sp) in prisons goes way way way down (almost nil) for prisoners who enter into AA. As for court orders yeah people probably will leave in droves. As I stated previously, and it is written in AA literature, people won't be able to go to any measures and seek the truth until they have reached their bottom. But by forcing people to go to AA meetings a seed is planted for them to grasp on to when that bottom comes - and it will come.
You're neglecting the facts brought out in the articles. In controlled studies AA members who were previously convicted of alcohol related crimes had higher recidivism rates than those with no treatment. Also you're ignoring the fact that other programs, when compared to AA in controled studies, show more attendance to meetings, and fewer incidents of binge drinking. Also AA has a success rate identical to people quitting on their own. Perhaps when one hits rock bottom he's going to quit regardless of whether or not he spends his time at AA meetings. That's what the statistics strongly suggest anyway.

I don't think it's a fair comment because Bufe shows that the percentage of people for whom AA works is statistically identical to the percentage of people who will spontaneously quit drinking. Therefore it's not unprecedented or unparalleled, it's exactly what you would expect whether these people had recieved AA or not.
Here is the rub. You want me to believe that what Bufe writes is fact, and what I posted in rebuttal is not fact.

Therefore, we have an impasse?

You should really learn to control your emotions. May I suggest you attend Emotions Anonymous. They have the same steps accept for the first one which states: We are powerless over our emotions...
Are you just fucking with all of us? This can't possibly be serious.

You should really learn to control your emotions. May I suggest you attend Emotions Anonymous. They have the same steps accept for the first one which states: We are powerless over our emotions...
:rolleyes: you are one of the worst trolls ever.

Here is the rub. You want me to believe that what Bufe writes is fact, and what I posted in rebuttal is not fact.

Therefore, we have an impasse?
We may well be at an impasse. One last thing I'd like to say though. Bufe backs his claims up with controled studies and with statistics from places like the US census bureau. Is the source where you got your rebuttal as well supported?

Oh, and should I still post the rest of the article? (won't be until Tues.)

We may well be at an impasse. One last thing I'd like to say though. Bufe backs his claims up with controled studies and with statistics from places like the US census bureau. Is the source where you got your rebuttal as well supported?
The controlled study is at odds with what I have garnered from other sites. I need to look more in depth.

Oh, and should I still post the rest of the article? (won't be until Tues.)
Please do. I do read what you have posted and sometimes dissent is good to understand.

The controlled study is at odds with what I have garnered from other sites. I need to look more in depth.


Please do. I do read what you have posted and sometimes dissent is good to understand.
Ok. It's long, so you'll get a couple of installments Tuesday and the end on Wednesday. I'll be away tomorrow and Monday.

You haven't answered CH's question regarding your father???? Afraid of the truth??
Ummmm, I was asking about Sinuhue's father, but unfortunately [NS:::]Elgesh decided to answer for her. Hence some confusion.

I dare say that Sinuhue will not answer?

Ok. It's long, so you'll get a couple of installments Tuesday and the end on Wednesday. I'll be away tomorrow and Monday.
Okay thanks. Enjoy your respite.

I dare say that Sinuhue will not answer?

Ummm no I'd say you shouldn't. Its insulting and a baisless assumption made by you that if your wrong at makes you look like a tremendous ass. So I'd say its more of her being offline and doing things in the real world rather then her purposely ignoring you.

Ummmm, I was asking about Sinuhue's father, but unfortunately [NS:::]Elgesh decided to answer for her. Hence some confusion.

I dare say that Sinuhue will not answer?

I did not 'answer for her', I reacted to a series of unacceptable posts. I've already made my views clear, I trust, but I'm pleased to see you're now engaging in debate rather than pissing about :) Long may it continue!

To quote the great American author Kurt Vonnegut Jr, "America has contributed three great things to Western Civilization. The Bill of Rights; Roberts Rules of Order; Alcoholics Anonymous.

Honestly, Vonnegut being one of my favorite authors, will everyone else excuse me if I return to this for a moment?

The Real Quote:
"...So this soldier sat down and wrote some rules, which were identical to the rules I saw followed in Indianapolis. They were published as Robert's Rules of Order, which I now believe to be one of the four greatest inventions by Americans.

The other three, in my opinon, were The Bill of Rights, the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the artificial extended families envisioned by Eliza and me." Written in character by Dr. Wilbur Daffodil-11 Swain. The last, tallest, and only President of the United States to be divorced in office. After his presidency he becomes King of Manhattan during the Apocolypse.

Other writings on AA in Slapstick or Lonesome No More!:

"At any rate, if Uncle Alex (Vonnegut), the athiest, found himself standing before Saint Peter and the Pearly Gates after he died, I am certain he introduced himself as follows:
"My name is Alex Vonnegut. I'm an alcoholic."
Good for him.

* * *

I will guess, too, that it was loneliness as much as it was a dread of alcoholic poisoning which sheparded him into A. A. As his relatives died off or wandered away, or simply became interchangable parts in the American machine, he went looking for new brothers and sisters and nephews and nieces and uncles and aunts, and so on, which he found in A. A."

Hi, my name is Sara, and I am a compulsive overeater.
I am a member of OA, a program of recovery that uses the same twelve steps and Big Book as AA.

I've read, carefully, this thread from beginning to end, and, though some of these topics have been talked to death, I feel compelled to share my experience as a recovering addict. I do not speak for the members of OA or AA. I don't speak for all addicts. My story, however, is not unique. I tell it now because I believe it will provide a framework for most of the things I want to say as regards this thread. I've also included a number of asides at the bottom of the post. (I came to this thread when it was 12 pages long. I'm not going to quote every post I hope to respond to; that would be silly.)

When I came to OA, my life was a mess. I had distanced myself from all of my friends, ruined another perfectly good romantic relationship, and alienated my family. I was not able to do any of my work, so I was soon going to flunk out of college and lose my job. Furthermore, I was spending more on food every week than I was earning in income, so I would soon lose my home and put my roommates in a pickle. I had become powerless over food, and my life was unmanageable.

For me, overeating had similar effects as alcohol has for alcoholics. I'd begin with a healthy lunch, for example, but by two I'd be stressed-out or busy, or my boyfriend would be calling, and I’d need to eat again. I'd eat another lunch. Then, on the way home, I'd buy a pizza and maybe a pie at the grocery, and then try to do some homework. But, I never could, because my body would feel ill and didn't know what to do with all those calories and sugars, so I'd cry. Then, I'd feel so bad about feeling sorry for my self, because, after all, it really is my fault that I'm falling to pieces, that I'd go to Krystal's or McDonald's. I'd eat for hours, frequently until I passed out. The passage of time became less and less recognizable, until I eventually wasn't getting out of bed for anything except to eat. I felt that I only got love from food. Eating was the only thing I could do without disappointing others or myself.

Some people call this a disease. Some an addiction. Others call it an eating disorder. I call it misery, but really it's all four.

I didn't know what to expect when I first attended an OA meeting. I do remember that I cried the whole hour. And everyone said "Keep coming back." So I did. I cried through a bunch of meetings, and then I began to listen. Then, I began to recover.

Quite honestly, I was very resistant to the idea that some higher power was going to help me. After all, hadn't I prayed for help for years? Wasn't I worse off now than ever? I read, though, the chapter in AA's Big Book addressed to the agnostic. Although individual opinions may vary, AA/OA as a whole is not a religious organization. We recognize, however, the role of a higher power in our lives. This is not because we need a deity to lean on for comfort or brotherhood or understanding, for these things we have one another. Rather, we are certain that there is a higher power, because alcohol and food and drugs have been our higher powers for so long. We have allowed them to rule us, but when we admit this to ourselves we can also see that there is another power, one that leads to love for ourselves and others, that has been calling us while we were busy serving our addictions. I have made a commitment to myself to serve this part of my conscience, and it has been what has lead me into recovery.

Maybe this is why I hear my story told so frequently. Plenty of people, myself included, think of themselves as religious, but they find that their religion, and their old ideas of “God” aren’t able to help them manage their lives in such a way that they can become abstinent/sober. OA and AA don’t require people to subscribe to any religion, they do require that you be rigorously honest, and, honestly most people find that they have faith in something, usually something without a name, and so amorphous that they would find it difficult to describe to others, but something. I’ve studied enough post-modern theory to recognize that each of these ideas is reality and is not; each one is equally true and equally non-existent. But even the most ardent post-modernist finds a reason to roll out of bed in the morning, a reason to do good things for themselves and others, a reason to read that book of theory made of all its signs and symbols, and for me my higher power is that reason. Go read Nietzsche- aestheticism can't fulfill itself if everyone is an aesthetic.

I need this voice to teach me what it is to love myself, what it is to do something well, what it is to have confidence. This higher power is not responsible for my recovery. I am. This higher power is not responsible for my addiction/disease/disorder/misery, and neither am I. Had I been able to choose an easier path, one without this disease, I would have. Had I been capable of reversing this disease on my own, I would have. I could not.

The Twelve and Twelve says, "We admitted we were powerless over food - that our lives had become unmanageable. We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. We made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood him."

It's simple: I can't. God can. I think I'll let him.

A lot of people are confused by this part of the program. They, like some of you, feel that abstinence is a matter of will power or self-discipline. I’ve always had lots of self-discipline. I never made below a 90 on any assignment after the fourth grade. I balance my checkbook religiously. I iron my jeans. I’ve made myself do and say a lot of things I didn’t want to do, sometimes even eat, so that I wouldn’t hurt someone else’s feelings. And I’ve lived with the guilt that goes along with wanting to fix everything for everybody else, but not being able to do even one good thing for myself. I’ve go discipline. What I didn’t have was an outlet for my own disappointments, frustrations, resentments, fears and guilt. I was supposedly perfect, remember? I rely on my higher power to not abandon me, even though I’m not perfect.

I am still responsible for the decisions I make. I choose whether or not to get out of bed. I choose to turn in my papers. I choose to treat myself with respect. I choose not to engage in hurtful actions. I choose to go to OA meetings. My higher power is not responsible for my mistakes. The way I am helped is by turning over to him the worry and the stress and the consequences of those decisions, so that I no longer feel that I have to be all things to all people. I only have to be good to myself. I don't have to be co-dependant.


Someone posted: “If they were religious the government couldn't … give them cash.” I resist believing this to be true. All anonymous meetings are fully self-supporting. We insist on this, just as we insist that our organization never lend its name to any outside causes, hence our names ought never be drawn into public controversy. These things might divert our attention from our primary purpose.

Also, as side notes:
-- Anonymous programs won’t make anyone believe anything. The members of these programs share what worked for them, but they refrain from advice giving when they are gathered as a group. Most veterans in these programs would agree that not every aspect of the program is for everybody. You take what you need and you leave the rest.

-- OA, AA and NA are not the only viable options for recovery. Many people in the program have known others for whom it has not worked, but who found recovery elsewhere. I will say that OA is the only thing that works for me, and I fully support anyone who is interested in this as a way of life.

-- Yes, maybe there are courts that are ordering people to attend AA meetings, but I doubt this is something AA lobbied for. The program doesn’t work unless you want it to work, and in most cases it doesn’t work well until you’re absolutely desperate. I would discourage any judge from ordering a defendant to attend Anonymous meetings. I hope, though, that while one of these people who is attending due to a court order is sitting there, he is hearing something valuable, something that may help him in the future.

-- Most members of anonymous programs also see counselors individually. We’re sick people. We admit to that.

snip
I'm glad you found something that has worked for you.

Ummm no I'd say you shouldn't. Its insulting and a baisless assumption made by you that if your wrong at makes you look like a tremendous ass. So I'd say its more of her being offline and doing things in the real world rather then her purposely ignoring you.
I disagree with you. If she answers, I would be surprised, and if she does, I don't see how that makes me look like an ass.

The reason that I believe that she won't answer is that the only logical answer to the question is that it "would be a good thing", and she might not want to commit to such an answer.

How long have you been sober?
almost 7 years

Are you using the marijuana maintenace program?
nope, I have been able to avoid all types of drugs (except I still have a problem with caffiene, I can't get through a day without a soda, but I am working on that)

I disagree with you. If she answers, I would be surprised, and if she does, I don't see how that makes me look like an ass.
Saying she won't answer and then having her answer does not make you look good. Honestly there was no reason for that statement and it was a sort of dickish thing to do.

The reason that I believe that she won't answer is that the only logical answer to the question is that it "would be a good thing", and she might not want to commit to such an answer.
I can't think to put words in someones mouth but regardless of what she says to presupose that she's running away from an arguement because of a "I've got her now" moment is a dickish thing to do.

Saying she won't answer and then having her answer does not make you look good. Honestly there was no reason for that statement and it was a sort of dickish thing to do.
Actually there is a very good reason to make the statement , considering that earlier in the thread she made this comment:

"I'd rather be an alcoholic than a Christian."

And before that, she stated:

"No...seriously. I struggle with the fear of alcoholism, because my father is an alcoholic, and I believe I could, under the wrong circumstances, follow in his footsteps if I let myself."

Hence my question to her that begs an answer.

I can't think to put words in someones mouth but regardless of what she says to presupose that she's running away from an arguement because of a "I've got her now" moment is a dickish thing to do.
I am not trying to put words into anyones mouth. I suggest to you that the question would be difficult for her to answer, but they were based upon the above comments that she made.

Think what you will, it is of no consequence to me.

A problem I have with AA is...what about atheist alcoholics who don't believe in a higher power? No...seriously. I struggle with the fear of alcoholism, because my father is an alcoholic, and I believe I could, under the wrong circumstances, follow in his footsteps if I let myself. But let's just say I become an alcoholic...okay wait, let's say, I wasn't native and I became an alcoholic (because there are healing programs for us based on our culture and spirituality...though that doesn't necessarily mean a higher power is involved at all)...what the heck could AA do for me?

Not entirely true..... You do not necessarily have to make God your "higher power". Your higher power can be your group that you meet with. A.A. turns no-one away, at least, not any group that is worth the time to attend. It is simply a mechanism by which you hold yourself and your behavior accountable to someone else. A belief in God can and does help. But not having it does not preclude your being able to participate.

Not entirely true..... You do not necessarily have to make God your "higher power". Your higher power can be your group that you meet with. A.A. turns no-one away, at least, not any group that is worth the time to attend. It is simply a mechanism by which you hold yourself and your behavior accountable to someone else. A belief in God can and does help. But not having it does not preclude your being able to participate.
Well stated and further backed up by AA's 3rd Tradition:

"The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."

Fairly straightforward enough.

Not entirely true..... You do not necessarily have to make God your "higher power". Your higher power can be your group that you meet with. A.A. turns no-one away, at least, not any group that is worth the time to attend. It is simply a mechanism by which you hold yourself and your behavior accountable to someone else. A belief in God can and does help. But not having it does not preclude your being able to participate.
I disagree personally with that philosophy. I am only accountable to myself.

Not entirely true..... You do not necessarily have to make God your "higher power". Your higher power can be your group that you meet with. A.A. turns no-one away, at least, not any group that is worth the time to attend. It is simply a mechanism by which you hold yourself and your behavior accountable to someone else. A belief in God can and does help. But not having it does not preclude your being able to participate.
Oh yeah, it doesn't have to be God.. despite the fact their twelve step program mentions God half a dozen times.

Sorry, folks. Gotta go back to P&T:

http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12

Watch it again.

Sorry, folks. Gotta go back to P&T:

http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12

Watch it again.
I would love to watch it, but I get this message:

"We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States"

Any international link?

I would love to watch it, but I get this message:

"We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States"

Any international link?
On Winamp SHOUTCAST TV, one of the channels is all P&T Bullshit. Eventually they will show that episode I assume.

I would love to watch it, but I get this message:

"We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States"

Any international link?

Aw, you're kidding! I'm so sorry. Perhaps some others' more technologically enlightened suggestions will help. It's a great clip -- in fact that one clip made me order the first two seasons on DVD from Amazon Marketplace. Debunking crap is an enjoyable thing for me to watch, even if that crap is my own!

I would love to watch it, but I get this message:

"We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States"

Any international link?
There might be a Showtime website specifically for your country.

Aw, you're kidding! I'm so sorry. Perhaps some others' more technologically enlightened suggestions will help. It's a great clip -- in fact that one clip made me order the first two seasons on DVD from Amazon Marketplace. Debunking crap is an enjoyable thing for me to watch, even if that crap is my own!
Nope, not finding anything about this here in BFN.

Are you just fucking with all of us? This can't possibly be serious.
There are like over 100 12 step programs. All stemming from AA. Here's just a few them:
AA - Alcoholics Anonymous
NA - Narcotics Anonymous
AAA - All Addictions anon.
CA - Cocaine anon.
EA - Emotions Anon.
OA - Over Eaters Anon.
CA - Cell Phone Anon. (yeah it's true)
SAA - Sex Addiction Anon. (lengthy process to join so if your thinking of signing up to pick up chicks won't work)
IA - Internet Anonymous

For a program that many of you don't think works there seems to be an awful lot of off-shoots.

There are like over 100 12 step programs. All stemming from AA. Here's just a few them:
AA - Alcoholics Anonymous
NA - Narcotics Anonymous
AAA - All Addictions anon.
CA - Cocaine anon.
EA - Emotions Anon.
OA - Over Eaters Anon.
CA - Cell Phone Anon. (yeah it's true)
SAA - Sex Addiction Anon. (lengthy process to join so if your thinking of signing up to pick up chicks won't work)
IA - Internet Anonymous

For a program that many of you don't think works there seems to be an awful lot of off-shoots.
To paraphrase an earlier post, "For those for whom it works, it works."

Hi, my name is Sara, and I am a compulsive overeater.
I am a member of OA, a program of recovery that uses the same twelve steps and Big Book as AA.
That was very eloquent. As a recovering alcohlic/addict in AA I can relate to all you have said. I also have a new insight into the problems of OAs. Thank you for relating your story. Maybe you have planted the seed in others with similar problems who will read your story. :)

Your reply also reminded of something I have negelcted to state in my replies. AA tells everyone who joins that it does not have all the answers and is in favour of people getting outside help (i.e. - therapy).

almost 7 years


nope, I have been able to avoid all types of drugs (except I still have a problem with caffiene, I can't get through a day without a soda, but I am working on that)
That's great. Well keep up the good fight then. I wouldn't worry about caffiene. It's not a mind altering substance. I drink coffee and still smoke cigarettes. Haven't quit smokes yet because can't handle getting rid of everything all at once. This year I quit drinking (which had been a constant in my life for about 20 years) and also crack-cocaine (which brought me down quicker then a pair of cement overshoes).

Oh yeah, it doesn't have to be God.. despite the fact their twelve step program mentions God half a dozen times.
Well they would have substitued the word God with "Earl" but they found that drunks were confused enough when joining the program.
"What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

An article:

"Alcoholism as Disease?

One of the foundational tents of A.A. is that alcoholism is a disease. Dobson agrees. In Love Must Be Tough, Dobson responds to a problem with an alcoholic and what to do to help. He says, “Do not nag, complain, scream, cry, beg, plead, embarrass, label or berate the victim. He has a disease which he can’t control. It is not within his power to overcome it alone.”8(Italics his; bold emphasis added.)

Note the words victim and disease. This demonstrates Dobson’s tendency to blame sinful behavior on victimization. But alcoholics are not victims; nor do they have a disease. The Bible calls them drunkards and says they will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10).

Dr. Herbert Fingarette, a professor at the University of California and an internationally distinguished scholar, has written a book titled Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease.The subtitle tells what the book is about. In an essay published by Harvard University, Fingarette asks,“Why do heavy drinkers persist in their behavior even when prudence, common sense, and moral duty call for restraint?” Then he says:That is the central question in debates about alcohol abuse.

In the United States (but not in other countries such as Great Britain) the standard answer is to call the behavior a disease, “alcoholism,”whose key symptom is a pattern of uncontrollable drinking. This myth, now widely advertised and widely accepted, is neither helpfully compassionate nor scientifically valid. It promotes false beliefs and inappropriate attitudes, as well as harmful, wasteful, and ineffective social policies.9 In concluding his essay, Fingarette says:But the greatest scandal of the argument for the disease concept as a useful lie is the claim that it helps alcoholics by inducing them to enter treatment.

On the contrary, both independent and government research show expensive disease-oriented treatment programs to be largely a waste of money and human resources.10The description for Peele’s book, mentioned earlier, reveals its contents:Stanton Peele documents the scientific fallacies of the addiction-as-disease movement. At the sametime, he points the way to positive personal and social change. Most people already overcome their addictions to alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, or food on their own.11(Emphasis his.)The research and conclusions by Fingarette and Peele show that Dobson’s idea of an alcoholic as a victim having a disease he cannot overcome alone is wrong."
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:_mofknZDUTgJ:www.psychoheresy-aware.org/images/Childaa.pdf+alcoholics+anonymous%22+harvard&hl=en

Can you direct me to an official source for the answer to my question: "Is alcoholism a disease?"

Richard

PS: The lecture was being given by employees (MD) of a private alcohol treatment center. Thanks! Rich.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Richard:

I am the "antichrist of the recovery movement," so what you'll hear from me is that alcoholism is not a disease. But the Bar Association should be ashamed of itself for presenting this view with no counterpoint, presented by people who profit from selling this bill of goods. Attorneys, one would hope, would be somewhat skeptical about the goals of private treatment personnel in claiming this was the case (you, for one, seemed to be).

Nearly all lay people in the U.S. agree that alcoholism is a disease, because that's what is taught in school. But, although 90% of Americans agree with the idea, what this agreement means to them varies all over the place. This depends on personal attitudes and cultural background, among other things. Almost no researchers would simply assent to the idea that alcoholism is a disease, although some are in sympathy with the thrust of this approach. The people who most spiritedly promote alcoholism-as-a-disease are staff at private treatment centers and the small minority of all alcoholics who recover through AA. (You should examine my book, "Diseasing of America.")

Alcoholism is not a disease. To an extent, it is arbitrary whether it is called a disease or not. However, everything disease advocates mean to indicate by this label is wrong, to wit (a) the genesis of alcoholism is biological and is inherited, (b) alcoholism follows a set pattern, inevitably progressing from bad to worse, (c) we have treatments (medical in nature) that deal effectively with this disease, and so on. My site is filled with material to show these assumptions are wrong. (See my on-line library, "The Disease Theory of Alcoholism" and "Genetic Models.")

More critically, treating alcoholism as a disease has a negative impact. Those cultures that most regard alcoholism as a disease have the highest alcoholism rates (see my article "A moral vision of addiction"). Treatments geared towards alcoholism as a disease have uniformly the worst success (see my article, "Recovering from an all-or-nothing approach to alcohol").

This is because they ignore individual differences and motivations and sell patients a bill of goods (based primarily on the treatment staff's personal experiences). That we continue to sell this failed product as a modern scientific advance is a tribute to long-standing American attitudes that grew up during temperance, which laid the groundwork for the American view that alcoholism is inbred and uncontrollable and that abstinence is the only answer to alcohol problems.

You correctly indicate that judges sentencing people for substance abuse is pretty futile. But not quite as futile as treating them. A number of studies, including a government sponsored trial of court interventions, have found that DWI defendants and street inebriates sentenced to treatment and or AA fare worse than those given judicial sanctions! (My article, "Research issues in assessing addiction treatment efficacy: How cost effective are Alcoholics Anonymous and private treatment centers?" Drug and Alcohol Dependence, 25, 179-182, 1990, will be put on-line some time this year.)

What is more, these coercive policies, and particularly forcing sentencees and inmates to attend AA, have been uniformly found to be unconstitutional (the latest such case to attract attention was in New York). Yet, the majority of those entering treatment are under some compulsion to do so, through EAPs, Medicaid or other government social services program, or court order (both civil and criminal). There is no possibility of reversing this, because it satisfies both hardliners who favor criminal justice solutions and softliners who feel treatment is best <my article, "AA Abuse," will be put on-line soon). The ABA has been among those most active in advocating greater treatment and greater coercion into treatment. A special 1994 report it issued made no mention of constitutional questions while espousing greatly expanded coercive treatment (see my book chapter, "Assumptions about drugs and the marketing of drug policies").

We have a sorry state of affairs, to which the legal system is contributing greatly, which forces disease treatments on people in a way that is both ineffective and unconstitutional.

Sorry to give you the bad news,

Stanton
http://www.peele.net/faq/disease.html

An article:

"Alcoholism as Disease?Apparently so:

http://alcoholism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=alcoholism&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncadd.org%2Ffacts%2Fdefalc.html

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/info2/a/aa022697.htm

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/about/f/faq2.htm

Alcoholism should not be judged as a problem of willpower, misconduct, or any other unscientific diagnosis. The problem must be accepted for what it is—a biopsychosocial disease with a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated.

An article:

"Alcoholism as Disease?

One of the foundational tents of A.A. is that alcoholism is a disease. Dobson agrees. In Love Must Be Tough, Dobson responds to a problem with an alcoholic and what to do to help. He says, “Do not nag, complain, scream, cry, beg, plead, embarrass, label or berate the victim. He has a disease which he can’t control. It is not within his power to overcome it alone.”8(Italics his; bold emphasis added.)

Note the words victim and disease. This demonstrates Dobson’s tendency to blame sinful behavior on victimization. But alcoholics are not victims; nor do they have a disease. The Bible calls them drunkards and says they will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10).

Dr. Herbert Fingarette, a professor at the University of California and an internationally distinguished scholar, has written a book titled Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease.The subtitle tells what the book is about. In an essay published by Harvard University, Fingarette asks,“Why do heavy drinkers persist in their behavior even when prudence, common sense, and moral duty call for restraint?” Then he says:That is the central question in debates about alcohol abuse.

In the United States (but not in other countries such as Great Britain) the standard answer is to call the behavior a disease, “alcoholism,”whose key symptom is a pattern of uncontrollable drinking. This myth, now widely advertised and widely accepted, is neither helpfully compassionate nor scientifically valid. It promotes false beliefs and inappropriate attitudes, as well as harmful, wasteful, and ineffective social policies.9 In concluding his essay, Fingarette says:But the greatest scandal of the argument for the disease concept as a useful lie is the claim that it helps alcoholics by inducing them to enter treatment.

On the contrary, both independent and government research show expensive disease-oriented treatment programs to be largely a waste of money and human resources.10The description for Peele’s book, mentioned earlier, reveals its contents:Stanton Peele documents the scientific fallacies of the addiction-as-disease movement. At the sametime, he points the way to positive personal and social change. Most people already overcome their addictions to alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, or food on their own.11(Emphasis his.)The research and conclusions by Fingarette and Peele show that Dobson’s idea of an alcoholic as a victim having a disease he cannot overcome alone is wrong."
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:_mofknZDUTgJ:www.psychoheresy-aware.org/images/Childaa.pdf+alcoholics+anonymous%22+harvard&hl=en
Quoting bible scriptures doesn't really add credence to your argument. I like how people who don't have this disease argue that it isn't one.

Quoting bible scriptures doesn't really add credence to your argument. I like how people who don't have this disease argue that it isn't one.
Is nicotine addiction a disease? Heroine? Cocaine?

Can you direct me to an official source for the answer to my question: "Is alcoholism a disease?"

Richard

PS: The lecture was being given by employees (MD) of a private alcohol treatment center. Thanks! Rich.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Richard:

I am the "antichrist of the recovery movement," so what you'll hear from me is that alcoholism is not a disease. But the Bar Association should be ashamed of itself for presenting this view with no counterpoint, presented by people who profit from selling this bill of goods. Attorneys, one would hope, would be somewhat skeptical about the goals of private treatment personnel in claiming this was the case (you, for one, seemed to be).

Nearly all lay people in the U.S. agree that alcoholism is a disease, because that's what is taught in school. But, although 90% of Americans agree with the idea, what this agreement means to them varies all over the place. This depends on personal attitudes and cultural background, among other things. Almost no researchers would simply assent to the idea that alcoholism is a disease, although some are in sympathy with the thrust of this approach. The people who most spiritedly promote alcoholism-as-a-disease are staff at private treatment centers and the small minority of all alcoholics who recover through AA. (You should examine my book, "Diseasing of America.")

Alcoholism is not a disease. To an extent, it is arbitrary whether it is called a disease or not. However, everything disease advocates mean to indicate by this label is wrong, to wit (a) the genesis of alcoholism is biological and is inherited, (b) alcoholism follows a set pattern, inevitably progressing from bad to worse, (c) we have treatments (medical in nature) that deal effectively with this disease, and so on. My site is filled with material to show these assumptions are wrong. (See my on-line library, "The Disease Theory of Alcoholism" and "Genetic Models.")

More critically, treating alcoholism as a disease has a negative impact. Those cultures that most regard alcoholism as a disease have the highest alcoholism rates (see my article "A moral vision of addiction"). Treatments geared towards alcoholism as a disease have uniformly the worst success (see my article, "Recovering from an all-or-nothing approach to alcohol").

This is because they ignore individual differences and motivations and sell patients a bill of goods (based primarily on the treatment staff's personal experiences). That we continue to sell this failed product as a modern scientific advance is a tribute to long-standing American attitudes that grew up during temperance, which laid the groundwork for the American view that alcoholism is inbred and uncontrollable and that abstinence is the only answer to alcohol problems.

You correctly indicate that judges sentencing people for substance abuse is pretty futile. But not quite as futile as treating them. A number of studies, including a government sponsored trial of court interventions, have found that DWI defendants and street inebriates sentenced to treatment and or AA fare worse than those given judicial sanctions! (My article, "Research issues in assessing addiction treatment efficacy: How cost effective are Alcoholics Anonymous and private treatment centers?" Drug and Alcohol Dependence, 25, 179-182, 1990, will be put on-line some time this year.)

What is more, these coercive policies, and particularly forcing sentencees and inmates to attend AA, have been uniformly found to be unconstitutional (the latest such case to attract attention was in New York). Yet, the majority of those entering treatment are under some compulsion to do so, through EAPs, Medicaid or other government social services program, or court order (both civil and criminal). There is no possibility of reversing this, because it satisfies both hardliners who favor criminal justice solutions and softliners who feel treatment is best <my article, "AA Abuse," will be put on-line soon). The ABA has been among those most active in advocating greater treatment and greater coercion into treatment. A special 1994 report it issued made no mention of constitutional questions while espousing greatly expanded coercive treatment (see my book chapter, "Assumptions about drugs and the marketing of drug policies").

We have a sorry state of affairs, to which the legal system is contributing greatly, which forces disease treatments on people in a way that is both ineffective and unconstitutional.

Sorry to give you the bad news,

Stanton
http://www.peele.net/faq/disease.html
Medical advice from a lawyer - hmm. The AMA and the CMA and probably several other MAs have designated alcoholism a disease. Perhaps you should google Dr. Silkworth - the first physician to declare alcholism a disease.

Is nicotine addiction a disease? Heroine? Cocaine?
addiction is a disease.

addiction is a disease.

Well at least in America. I'm not sure about other places and I think I've heard that the UK regards it as a behavior.

Perhaps you should google Dr. Silkworth - the first physician to declare alcholism a disease.
Actually I do believe Benjamin Rush was the first person to declare alcoholism a disease and he was a doctor. Of course he also conceived that minority political group dissent, lying, and murder as mental illnesses, and he also defined "negritude" as a special type of leprosy.

addiction is a disease.
Cancer is a disease. Muscular dystrophy is a disease. An addiction is a side-effect of abuse of shit you shouldn't be abusing.

Well at least in America. I'm not sure about other places and I think I've heard that the UK regards it as a behavior.


Actually I do believe Benjamin Rush was the first person to declare alcoholism a disease and I can't remember if he was a doctor as well.

Our psych. guys regard addiction-to-anything as a behaviour, learnt, and sometimes used as a coping strategy to deal with the stress and troubles life throws at you. Not a disease, more a problem that can be solved.

In common with American psych., though, as regards interventions in that you need to want to solve this condition before you've got a real shot at it.

Elgesh']Our psych. guys regard addiction-to-anything as a behaviour, learnt, and sometimes used as a coping strategy to deal with the stress and troubles life throws at you. Not a disease, more a problem that can be solved.

In common with American psych., though, as regards interventions in that you need to want to solve this condition before you've got a real shot at it.

Thats interesting. I wonder if any other countries in Europe take that opinion or if they follow the train of thought that its a disease?

Elgesh']Our psych. guys regard addiction-to-anything as a behaviour, learnt, and sometimes used as a coping strategy to deal with the stress and troubles life throws at you. Not a disease, more a problem that can be solved.

In common with American psych., though, as regards interventions in that you need to want to solve this condition before you've got a real shot at it.
The majority of alcholics want to solve this condition and have tried and tried but were unable to so. Hence the disease part. :rolleyes: That's why they come to AA.

Thats interesting. I wonder if any other countries in Europe take that opinion or if they follow the train of thought that its a disease?

No, us Brits are broadly in line with them, agreeing that alcholism is the result of maladaptive coping strategies and learnt behaviour (social, societal, modelling etc.). American and European psychologies follow fairly different schools of thought, though, so this difference isn't surprising :)

(I should clarify that obviously some substances (nicotine, for example) are seen as being chemically addictive - that sort of thing's seperate from 'learnt' addictions!)

The majority of alcholics want to solve this condition and have tried and tried but were unable to so. Hence the disease part. :rolleyes: That's why they come to AA.

Ahem - a disease is not defined as something that's very very hard to do.

The majority of alcholics want to solve this condition and have tried and tried but were unable to so. Hence the disease part. :rolleyes: That's why they come to AA.

How does trying to solve a problem and not being able to do so make something a disease? I have a huge sweet tooth and I can't stop eating candy no matter what I try. Does this mean I have a disease? Or rather am I choosing to continue eating candy while refusing to stop. See here is the thing if all alcoholics had tried to stop and couldn't and we found an external cause for it then we could say it might be a disease. But instead we have people how can and have quit cold turkey. Now how can it be a disease if someone says I'm going to stop drinking and they do?

How does trying to solve a problem and not being able to do so make something a disease? I have a huge sweet tooth and I can't stop eating candy no matter what I try. Does this mean I have a disease? Or rather am I choosing to continue eating candy while refusing to stop. See here is the thing if all alcoholics had tried to stop and couldn't and we found an external cause for it then we could say it might be a disease. But instead we have people how can and have quit cold turkey. Now how can it be a disease if someone says I'm going to stop drinking and they do?
Alcohlism is a physical and mental allergy. - Dr. Silkworth (circa 1935)

Alcohlism is a physical and mental allergy. - Dr. Silkworth (circa 1935)

No it's not - Lazarus, 1978.

Quotes out of context aren't that useful!

The status of alcoholism as a disease are... disputed, shall we say. Next question! :p

Alcohlism is a physical and mental allergy. - Dr. Silkworth (circa 1935)
So it makes people sneeze and gives them watery eyes?

So it makes people sneeze and gives them watery eyes?
You should use that joke next time a kid almost dies from eating a peanut.

Alcohlism is a physical and mental allergy. - Dr. Silkworth (circa 1935)

Scientifically, the contention that addiction is a disease is empirically unsupported. Addiction is a behavior and thus clearly intended by the individual person.-Jeffrey Schaler 2002

Look at me I can quote people too.:rolleyes:

You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named Bush, Dick, and Colon. Need I say more?" - Chris Rock

I likes to quote.

You should use that joke next time a kid almost dies from eating a peanut.
Besides that, you do realize that quote you made does not even remotely say alcoholism is a disease, and is seventy years old.

addiction is a disease.
All addiction? So, if I collect little knick knacks of kittens and buy them compulsively, I'm diseased? OR do I have a compulsive disorder?

Is sex a disease?

"Alcoholism should not be judged as a problem of willpower, misconduct, or any other unscientific diagnosis. The problem must be accepted for what it is—a biopsychosocial disease with a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated."

Sex has a strong genetic infuence. You could say, I was predisposed at birth to have sex once I reached maturity. Promiscuity can also be considered biopsychosocial disease. And "More than half of all people will have an STD at some point in their lifetime. [1]" http://www.ashastd.org/learn/learn_statistics.cfm
There are obvious signs and symptoms of promiscuity. It features a natural progression of more and more partners. In fact, with over 50% of the entire human population having some sort of STD, it can be said that someone who is promiscuous enough will come to a fatal outcome if not treated.

Now how can it be a disease if someone says I'm going to stop drinking and they do?
Perhaps you should take it up with these people and get back to us?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10078394&postcount=213

Dear Richard:

I am the "antichrist of the recovery movement," so what you'll hear from me is that alcoholism is not a disease.
This probably sums it up best. I am sure the atheists and the antichrists would love to see AA fail, because AA supports belief in a higher power, and God knows that atheists don't believe in Him.

This probably sums it up best. I am sure the atheists and the antichrists would love to see AA fail, because AA supports belief in a higher power, and God knows that atheists don't believe in Him.

This point has nothing to do with aethism. We've moved on to the conception of alcoholism as a disease, and whether this is A) a correct assumption, B) a useful one, with many good posts highlighting reasons for and against. care to contribute one? :)

Elgesh']This point has nothing to do with aethism. We've moved on to the conception of alcoholism as a disease, and whether this is A) a correct assumption, B) a useful one, with many good posts highlighting reasons for and against. care to contribute one? :)
I already did, IF you care to check out my previous posts.

You trying to play thread monitor? If you are, please don't bother. Thanks.

The thread is about a Higher Power in AA, if you care to check out the first post.

Perhaps you should take it up with these people and get back to us?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10078394&postcount=213

Perhaps you shouldn't quote part of a post and missing context of the post. Plator made a post to the effect that because people couldn't stop drinking and they've tried then alcoholism is a disease. And I made that whole post not just the tiny snipet of what you've posted saying that just because some people have tried and been unable to quit doesn't mean that it is a disease. Quote the whole thing not just the little bit next time canuck..

Perhaps you shouldn't quote part of a post and missing context of the post. Plator made a post to the effect that because people couldn't stop drinking and they've tried then alcoholism is a disease. And I made that whole post not just the tiny snipet of what you've posted saying that just because some people have tried and been unable to quit doesn't mean that it is a disease. Quote the whole thing not just the little bit next time canuck.
Not that I have to explain this to you, but out of couresy, I will. Regarding your post, I took the relevant sentence and made comment on it.

There is no need for you to tell me how to post.

The thread is about a Higher Power in AA, if you care to check out the first post.

Is AA's loss psychology's gain?

Stanton Peele, Ph.D., J.D.
New York University School of Social Work



A number of state Supreme Court and federal circuit court cases —including Arnold v. Tennessee Board of Paroles (1997), Griffin v. Coughlin (New York, 1996), Warner v. Orange County Dep't. of Probation (2nd Cir. 1997), Rauser v. Horn (3rd Cir. 2001), and Kerr v. Farrey (7th Cir. 1996)— have defined Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and other treatment programs based on AA's 12 steps as religious in nature.

In all the cases, state agencies (either courts or corrections) sentenced or otherwise compelled probationers or inmates to participate in such programs, thereby, according to the case decisions, violating the First Amendment's separation of church and state (the Establishment Clause). AA requires that participants turn themselves over to a "higher power" as part of their recovery. AA advocates typically indicate that a higher power may be anything — including, according to former Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating, "a dead ancestor, a tall tree or the group itself."

But courts disagree with his analysis, finding that the reference to God or a higher power in six of the 12 steps is, in fact, religious. The courts have also found that it is not only that many meetings begin and end with prayers, but that the fundamental nature of turning oneself over to a higher power is a religious conception.

Because of actions in New York by both its highest court (in Griffin) and the federal appeals court governing the state (in Warner), the state has most clearly indicated that state-funded programs may not compel AA attendance. The 2nd Circuit (the federal appeals court that covers New York, Vermont and Connecticut) extended rulings against mandated AA participation in DeStephano v. Emergency Housing Group et al (2001). Joseph DeStefano, mayor of Middletown, originally brought the action in the Southern District Court of New York against a private alcohol treatment facility that received state funding. The lower court granted a summary judgment in favor of the defendant, Middletown Alcohol Crisis Center.

The 2nd Circuit appeals court vacated the decision and remanded the case. Although the program did not officially require clients to attend AA, the appeals court decided that supervision of AA meetings by program staff and reliance on AA literature was sufficient to evoke the Establishment Clause. Based on DeStefano, New York's Office of Alcohol and Substance Abuse Services issued a bulletin to all government-funded providers stating that AA attendance could not be compulsory, treatment staff must not supervise AA meetings and programs could not require use of AA materials.

Yet standard treatment programs, even in New York, have been slow to adopt the law enunciated in Griffin and Warner. AA and its 12 steps are such a fundamental part of American substance abuse treatment that many programs and counselors cannot imagine alternatives.
AA alternatives

The recent line of legal rulings brings significant consequences for psychologists. While many psychologists practice 12-step approaches, psychology as a field and many of its addiction specialists (like Alan Marlatt, William Miller and myself) have pioneered and promoted non 12-step approaches.

Motivational interviewing, brief interventions, relapse prevention, the community reinforcement approach and the perspective of harm reduction are some of the more prominent, and effective, examples. Thomas Horvath, a former president of APA's Div. 50 (Addictions), heads SMART Recovery, a non12-step support group, and Moderation Management is a support group whose board includes a number of psychologists.

Nonetheless, it is standard for courts to refer people convicted of driving under the influence or defendants in state family court actions or drug courts to 12-step programs.

Yet legal decisions involving mandatory AA and 12-step program referrals indicate the need for such sentencing to include programs that do not rely on AA's 12 steps. Along with awareness of these legal issues, courts also need a better understanding of evidence-based psychological approaches to alcohol and drug problems.

The court decisions described in this article make clear that there is a legal — as well as ethical and scientific — basis for expanding this understanding.

Edit:
Not that I have to explain this to you, but out of couresy, I will. Regarding your post, I took the relevant sentence and made comment on it.

There is no need for you to tell me how to post.
The sentence isn't relevant unless you take the whole post and the context it was in. So there is a need for me to tell you not to put words in my mouth by taking a part of a post and taking it out of context.

~~Snip~~
The sentence isn't relevant unless you take the whole post and the context it was in. So there is a need for me to tell you not to put words in my mouth by taking a part of a post and taking it out of context.
I disagree. A sentence is a complete thought. I took the one thought that you expressed and that I wanted to respond to and that is all there is to it. You asked a question and I answered it. End of story.

I was not putting any words into your mouth period.

I disagree. A sentence is a complete thought. I took the one thought that you expressed and that I wanted to respond to and that is all there is to it. You asked a question and I answered it. End of story.

I was not putting any words into your mouth period.

A sentence is a complete thought. But the post wasn't just a single sentence post. Hence it was more then one thought together. Your sitting here taking issue with a small part of a post that was when taken in context just a shot at someone saying just because some alcoholics can't quit its a disease. Now if we could move on to discussing the article I've just posted where some supreme courts have rulled that AA is infact religious I'd think the thread can move on.

Now if we could move on to discussing the article I've just posted where some supreme courts have rulled that AA is infact religious I'd think the thread can move on.
AA is based on the principle of a higher power or a God or a Creator, but not on a religion. However, having stated that, the only requirement for membership in AA is "a desire to stop drinking".

AA is based on the principle of a higher power or a God or a Creator, but not on a religion. However, having stated that, the only requirement for membership in AA is "a desire to stop drinking".


But courts disagree with his analysis, finding that the reference to God or a higher power in six of the 12 steps is, in fact, religious. The courts have also found that it is not only that many meetings begin and end with prayers, but that the fundamental nature of turning oneself over to a higher power is a religious conception. -From the article

But courts disagree with his analysis, finding that the reference to God or a higher power in six of the 12 steps is, in fact, religious. The courts have also found that it is not only that many meetings begin and end with prayers, but that the fundamental nature of turning oneself over to a higher power is a religious conception. -From the article
Well, I am not in the court room, but the 12 Steps are only suggested as a program of recovery. There is nothing saying that you have to take them.

Again, I refer you to the only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.

It would appear that the AA program of recovery is totally up to the individual.

Well, I am not in the court room, but the 12 Steps are only suggested as a program of recovery. There is nothing saying that you have to take them.

Again, I refer you to the only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.

It would appear that the AA program of recovery is totally up to the individual.

The whole time you've been making this big stink about AA not being religious. Now we see that courts have acknowledged it is in fact religious. Once again though you fail to see the original point of the thread. No one is saying AA hasn't helped people and no one is saying lets end the program. What people have said is that the courts should not be allowed to force people to either attend it or go to jail.

The whole time you've been making this big stink about AA not being religious. Now we see that courts have acknowledged it is in fact religious.
That is subject for further debate. I suggest that it is not a religious program.

Once again though you fail to see the original point of the thread.
Actually, I do see the "ORIGINAL" point of the thread, but apparently you do not.

What people have said is that the courts should not be allowed to force people to either attend it or go to jail.
That is not what the original poster stated. Being an atheist, he/she was complaining about AA in regards to a higher power. The OP stated nothing in regards to court orders. As a matter of fact, Drunk Commies was the first to mention about court orders in post 22.

Prior to that, the slam on AA was about the higher power thing from some atheists.

I fully understand the thrust of this thread.

That is subject for further debate. I suggest that it is not a religious program.
And the courts disagree with you. So its your word against the courts.

That is not what the original poster stated. Being an atheist, he/she was complaining about AA in regards to a higher power. The OP stated nothing in regards to court orders. As a matter of fact, Drunk Commies was the first to mention about court orders in post 22.

Prior to that, the slam on AA was about the higher power thing from some atheists.
Well they can rightfully be mad about it since it is religious. So why shouldn't they be slaming a program that's methods are suspect to criticism and that the courts force people to attend this religious program.

I fully understand the thrust of this thread.
*must resist urge for dirty joke*

And the courts disagree with you. So its your word against the courts.
So then, if such is a fait accompli, then why do courts still order people to attend AA?

Well they can rightfully be mad about it since it is religious. So why shouldn't they be slaming a program that's methods are suspect to criticism and that the courts force people to attend this religious program.
IF their only slam was about people being sent to AA against their will then I could understand to a degree.

However, their main concern, at least the OP, was that AA was "religious". Why the hell should he/she/they care if AA is "religious" or not, as long as AA is helping millions of people to get sober and stay sober?

I see this thread as an attack against AA by some unhappy atheists. They should be happy that AA is there to get some drunks off the road before they go slamming their cars into theirs.

So then, if such is a fait accompli, then why do courts still order people to attend AA?
I'm not sure if they still do. Those rullings have pretty much put the kabash on anyone getting sent in whatever state that was. But then again I am not aware of every states policy on the matter. I do recall reading somewhere that the supreme court actually rulled that AA was religious so I'm not sure if that has pretty much killed it.

Justice Leval:"The County argues further that the nonsectarian nature of the A.A. experience immunizes its use of religious symbolism and practices from Establishment Clause scrutiny. The argument is at the very least factually misleading, for the evidence showed that every meeting included at least one explicitly Christian Prayer. Furthermore, the claim that nonsectarian religious exercise falls outside the First Amendment's scrutiny has been repeatedly rejected by the Supreme Court."
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/alanon2.htm

U.S. judges continue to offer defendants the choice of attending A.A., or going to prison. A federal appeals court ruled in 1999 that doing so compromises Americans' constitutional right not to have religion dictated to them by government - because A.A. suggests that a belief in a higher power (and willingness to turn one's will and life over to it, per the third step) is necessary to achieve recovery. The United States Supreme Court has let this decision stand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous#A.A..2C_religion_and_the_law

IF their only slam was about people being sent to AA against their will then I could understand to a degree.
Dude everyone's got a complaint about something. Its life.

However, their main concern, at least the OP, was that AA was "religious". Why the hell should he/she/they care if AA is "religious" or not, as long as AA is helping millions of people to get sober and stay sober?
Because they can and its their right to. That and maybe they feel that surrendering to a higher power isnt a legitimate way to get sober and don't think it should be used. Thats their perspective and they are allowed to voice it.

I see this thread as an attack against AA by some unhappy atheists. They should be happy that AA is there to get some drunks off the road before they go slamming their cars into theirs.
Sadly canuck its within their rights to criticize an organization that they don't like. So you can either deal with it or you can leave the thread if you think its such an attack. Obviously you won't be changing any point of views especially with the condescending way you've been acting so I'd suggest the later. But then again its within your rights to stay here and be a jerk so I can't tell you what to do. If they or I for that matter want to say AA is a shitty organization for the religious tones that aren't effective in helping people we can and will in the thread.