NationStates Jolt Archive

You don't HAVE to anymore, but there is a strong cultural belief in North America that the woman should take her husband's last name. Even if she doesn't, the children rarely take the mother's name. It's thought of as strange...a denial of the father. Well what about the mother?

It wasn't until I met my husband that I realied this practice is not as widespread as I believed. Being from Chile, I assumed he would be 'traditional' and want me to change my name. But this is not usually done in Latin America. The woman keeps her own surname, and the children get the father's AND the mother's surname.

Taking the man's surname is a new tradition for my people as well. In our belief, the only parent you can be sure of is the mother. Oh yes, there are now paternity tests, and so on, and if it really matters, you may choose to spend the bucks to get one, but unless you are even suspicious, why would you? And why should it matter?

We look at things always down through the mother's line. Things are passed down through that line, heirlooms, knowledge, names. But now, we are following the North American custom of giving the children, and the wife, the surname of the man. This does not just affect our names...(hell, we didn't HAVE surnames before contact anyway), but it actually affects our lines of succession. It's rather annoying.

So what are your opinions on this? Why is it important that a wife, or children, take the man's surname?

Saves room on the mailbox.

Most Hmong women keep their maiden name after getting married. I live in Minneapolis (which has one of the largest Hmong populations in the country), and I've met lots of married Hmong women. Of them, only one adopted her husband's last name.

Saves room on the mailbox.
So would keeping the mother's name. I assume that you're talking about hyphenations?

It doesn't really matter to me. Different strokes for different folks.

There's no particular reason why a woman should take a man's last name, just as there is no particular reason for the opposite to occur. I wouldn't consider marrying a person who wanted to take my name, just as I wouldn't consider marrying a person who expected me to give up mine.

So would keeping the mother's name. I assume that you're talking about hyphenations?

I probably am. Who can be sure?

It has something to do with the complex of white men. They have this thing that I call "the small member complex" and it makes them take out all the hatred towards their own bodies on others..And make women feel like lesser beings.

*shrugs* I'm trying to type this around a bunch of seniors..and one junior swordfighting with rulers.

Most Hmong women keep their maiden name after getting married. I live in Minneapolis (which has one of the largest Hmong populations in the country), and I've met lots of married Hmong women. Of them, only one adopted her husband's last name.
My father-in-law lied to my mother-in-law when he brought her to Canada, and said that here, women must have the husband's last name. So she changed it. So now, she has one legal name in Canada, and another legal name in Chile (she didn't have to change it there). She's rather pissed about it.

Saves room on the mailbox.

Makes alot of damn sense when you put it that way.

The simple solution is to abolish family names. I answer to Safalra in real life. One crazy solution would be for children to take both parents' names (they could put the name of the parent on the same gender first, for instance) and then choose their own name when they're older.

Oh, tradition, or as I like to call it: "the heterosexist orthodoxy and its treatment of women like chattel."

It doesn't really matter to me. Different strokes for different folks.
It seems to be such a political statement in North America though. If the woman doesn't take the man's name, she's being independent, and making a point...but it's seen as insulting to the man. If she hyphenates her maiden name and her husband's name, it's also seen as independent, but less insulting...and the kids still get the father's name. Why? I'm not saying it's wrong...just that it's something most people don't even question or think about.

What about you, DC? Do you have a preference? If you married someone, and had kids, what last name would they have? Would you care?

its an annoying tradition that should go by the wayside

it makes married women invisible unless you happen to know who they married. whereas a mans marital status is irrelevant to his social visibility

consider those people you went to highschool with but have lost contact with. the boys all have their same names (prettymuch) but to find the girls you have to ask around about what their name might be now. if they got married out of town to someone no one knows, you may not ever be able to find them. that just sucks

its also a problem as you work your way up the ladder in a career. if you impressed boss #1 with your incredible work ethic when you cahnge your name to your husbands that fact may slip through the cracks. if you marry several times, the problem is compounded.

The simple solution is to abolish family names. I answer to Safalra in real life. One crazy solution would be for children to take both parents' names (they could put the name of the parent on the same gender first, for instance) and then choose their own name when they're older.
My parents each kept their own names, and gave my brother and I a hyphenated combination (DadName-MomName).

My partner and I have discussed the disaster that could occur if we tried to use the same method, since it would mean a combination of my already-hyphenated surname and his very long and difficult to spell surname. We both prefer the idea of giving our child(ren) their own surname, just like we would be giving them their own first and middle names.

The simple solution is to abolish family names. I answer to Safalra in real life. One crazy solution would be for children to take both parents' names (they could put the name of the parent on the same gender first, for instance) and then choose their own name when they're older.
In Chile, my children have both our names...it's common there. However, if I do that here, because the mother's name comes after the father's name, their last name would be my last name. And we wanted them to have my husband's last name because it's cooler:)

In our society, having the same last name if you are married, especially if you want to have children, is simply easier. It isn't necessary, but it is easier. Traditionally, it has been the woman taking the man's last name, so most people go with that.

I'm not really sure what my boyfriend and I will do when we get married. I've already published papers and given presentations under my current name, so changing could be problematic professionally (although I haven't had years and years of it, so it wouldn't be a huge problem). He could take my name (some of the mail we get already comes addressed that way hehe), but it would really freak his parents out. We could keep separate names, but then we would have the issue of which to give our children, and any confusion that came from that. And I think hyphenation is just plain silly. So we'll figure it out when the time comes. =)

Edit: We've actually considered just making up a new last name. But that would probably really get people going, especially on his side of the family =)

There's no particular reason why a woman should take a man's last name, just as there is no particular reason for the opposite to occur. I wouldn't consider marrying a person who wanted to take my name, just as I wouldn't consider marrying a person who expected me to give up mine.
Wait...I'm not understanding...you'd refuse to marry someone who wanted your name, or wanted you to take theirs? Or that just wouldn't be a consideration in choice of spouse at all?

Oh, tradition, or as I like to call it: "the heterosexist orthodoxy and its treatment of women like chattel."
I'm only speaking of the US and Canada (shouldn't really be saying North America, because Mexico does not have this tradition), but I always assumed the rest of the world did this too. Now I realise this is false...is this tradition in Sweden as well?

I have one child by each of my previous wives. My current wife has a son of her own. We each have full custody of our own children.

My wife took my last name (her choice alone) when she married me. Mostly for sentimental reasons of her own. Her son, on the other hand, has her original last name, even though I have adopted him. My original children both have my last name.

I believe the last name thing dates from a time when both women and children were considered chattel property. Today it's largely an anachronism -- do what you like with the last name.

No one's making them take on the husband's name. In fact, many hyphenate their name, or simply don't take it at all. If you don't want to take your husband's name, fine. Don't. No reason to get worked up about it.

My parents each kept their own names, and gave my brother and I a hyphenated combination (DadName-MomName).

My partner and I have discussed the disaster that could occur if we tried to use the same method, since it would mean a combination of my already-hyphenated surname and his very long and difficult to spell surname. We both prefer the idea of giving our child(ren) their own surname, just like we would be giving them their own first and middle names. Ah! Interesting!

Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and rename my children...give them more traditional Cree names for one...but everything happened a lot quicker than I thought...and we had a hard time coming up with ANY names. There's no point in changing them now...they are who they are, and a new name would just be wrong.

Wait...I'm not understanding...you'd refuse to marry someone who wanted your name, or wanted you to take theirs? Or that just wouldn't be a consideration in choice of spouse at all?
I believe that both partners should retain their own names after marriage, as a concrete symbol of the idea that they will retain their individual identities after marriage. I would not feel comfortable marrying somebody who wanted to take my name, and I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable marrying a person who expected me to give up mine. It's more about what those choices would represent, rather than being about the names themselves.

Why must women take the husband's family name?

Because the ACLU gets upset when we just assign women numbers.

No one's making them take on the husband's name. In fact, many hyphenate their name, or simply don't take it at all. If you don't want to take your husband's name, fine. Don't. No reason to get worked up about it.
Who's getting worked up? I'm just curious.

Though, if the woman wanted the man to take her last name, I could see there being strife.

I believe that both partners should retain their own names after marriage, as a concrete symbol of the idea that they will retain their individual identities after marriage. I would not feel comfortable marrying somebody who wanted to take my name, and I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable marrying a person who expected me to give up mine.
So I guess we're assuming marriages aren't supposed to last anyway?

So I guess we're assuming marriages aren't supposed to last anyway?
How's that? Are you assuming that refusing to change your name somehow means a refusal to commit. How very...traditional of you.

Careful...don't get worked up...

It seems to be such a political statement in North America though. If the woman doesn't take the man's name, she's being independent, and making a point...but it's seen as insulting to the man. If she hyphenates her maiden name and her husband's name, it's also seen as independent, but less insulting...and the kids still get the father's name. Why? I'm not saying it's wrong...just that it's something most people don't even question or think about.

What about you, DC? Do you have a preference? If you married someone, and had kids, what last name would they have? Would you care?
Not really. It's too minor of an issue. It's not like my kids would need the name to inherit our family's land and title back in Vilalba.

Not really. It's too minor of an issue. It's not like my kids would need the name to inherit our family's land and title back in Vilalba.
Would it bother your family at all, if your kids didn't have your last name? Because I often think a lot of this is a hold-over from older generations...and not wanting to upset them.

I'm not really sure what my boyfriend and I will do when we get married. I've already published papers and given presentations under my current name, so changing could be problematic professionally (although I haven't had years and years of it, so it wouldn't be a huge problem). He could take my name (some of the mail we get already comes addressed that way hehe), but it would really freak his parents out.

This is one of the reasons I don't like the idea of either party changing their name upon marrying; to me, if you've been doing things "right," changing your name SHOULD be inconvenient! You SHOULD have a professional life, a personal reputation, a credit history, and a bunch of other things that are attached to your name. If changing your name really wouldn't make any difference, I start to wonder, "So what have you been doing with yourself all this time?!"

:)


We could keep separate names, but then we would have the issue of which to give our children, and any confusion that came from that. And I think hyphenation is just plain silly. So we'll figure it out when the time comes. =)

Hey now, hyphenation can be okay!

Sure, nobody understands, it won't fit on any forms, it gets mangled by schools and employers all the time, and it prompts confused DMV personel to ask me, "Aren't you a bit young to be married?" But every time somebody asks me about my name, it gives me an opportunity to tell people how cool my parents are!

So I guess we're assuming marriages aren't supposed to last anyway?

Retaining individuality doesn't mean that the marriage won't last. Indeed, it may be a hallmark of a healthy marriage...

So I guess we're assuming marriages aren't supposed to last anyway?
Um, no, we're assuming that marriages should be partnerships between individuals rather than the formation of some kind of Marital Hive Mind.

My parents kept their own names when they got married. Their 30th wedding aniversary is this July. So much for your theory :).

Hey now, hyphenation can be okay!

Sure, nobody understands, it won't fit on any forms, it gets mangled by schools and employers all the time, and it prompts confused DMV personel to ask me, "Aren't you a bit young to be married?" But every time somebody asks me about my name, it gives me an opportunity to tell people how cool my parents are!

Hehe, I wasn't talking about hyphenation in your case. In the case of a woman marrying and hyphenating her last name to his, it just seems like she's trying to be wishy washy on the whole thing. I say, either change it, or don't. In your case, you were given a hyphenated name at birth, it wasn't something you did to try to hold to tradition while not actually holding to tradition.

You don't HAVE to anymore, but there is a strong cultural belief in North America that the woman should take her husband's last name. Even if she doesn't, the children rarely take the mother's name. It's thought of as strange...a denial of the father. Well what about the mother?

So what are your opinions on this? Why is it important that a wife, or children, take the man's surname?
It's not, but you should at least try to leave men SOMEthing! :headbang:

When guys playing sports are shown on TV, who do they say hi to? Mom!

How many families celebrate Father's Day as often or as seriously as Mother's Day? None!

When Christmas rolls around and the kids thank someone for all the presents, who gets thanked? Mom!

Fathers have always been the forgotten man when it comes to passing out virtually anything! So now women want to take something else away? Why am I NOT surprised. :(

Would it bother your family at all, if your kids didn't have your last name? Because I often think a lot of this is a hold-over from older generations...and not wanting to upset them.
It might, but I'm one of the black sheep in my family anyway, so they'd probably deal with it better from me than from one of my good cousins.

How's that? Are you assuming that refusing to change your name somehow means a refusal to commit. How very...traditional of you.

Careful...don't get worked up...
I'm just trying to clarify.

In the Catholic tradition at least, a marriage is meant to be the foundation of a domestic church. A name change signifies the sign of a covenent, like when Abram became Abraham and Simon became Peter. And to be sure, it's not always the man's name. In Spainish cultures, they take compound names: if Juan Diaz marries Maria Sanchez, they become Juan Diaz y Sanchez and Maria Sanchez y Diaz (anyone more familiar with Latin culture can correct me). When some of my friends got married, the guy changed his first name to his last name and they took her last name.

I guess my point is, if you're going to change your name, you might as well have a reason. If you expect there to be an "after marriage," then why change names?

There is no reason to get married otherwise. Just live together.
Traditionally, I'm the head of the household. No one I know has a problem with that.

My wife didn't take my last name when we got married, actually. I'm actually her second husband, and (as is true with many women the second time around) she said she fought too hard to get her name back after her first marriage to give it up again. It's no big deal to me. Though I can't seem to get this fact through to some members of my family, or even to some members of my wife's family.

Our son, though, has my last name. It would have caused too much commotion in certain corners of my family if he didn't, because my family has run heavily to girls in the last few generations, and I was the last male with the family name - at least in our branch. It's kind of silly, actually, because the family name isn't really in any danger of "dying out" - there are plenty of distant relatives scattered all over the globe with the same last name. But nonetheless, there was an expectation that my son would "carry on the family name", and so he does. He's now condemned to a lifetime of having his name mispronounced and misspelled. :D

I know several couples who have combined their last names in interesting ways to create new last names for both of them. My favorite is a couple whose maiden names were Green and Wolfe; their joint last name is now "Greenwolfe".

:p

Hehe, I wasn't talking about hyphenation in your case. In the case of a woman marrying and hyphenating her last name to his, it just seems like she's trying to be wishy washy on the whole thing. I say, either change it, or don't.

Oh, then we totally agree. I think women hyphenating at marriage are, as you say, the wishy-washiest of the wishy-washy.

The one thing I feel I should say is that women need to understand and accept that all of us do "bad feminist" things. Some very strong feminists still take their husbands' names. Some feminists give their children their husbands' surnames. Some feminists make choices that don't fit the "Good Feminist Rules." But that's okay, because REAL feminism is about letting women make their own goddam choices. Feminism isn't some exclusive club that kicks you out if you don't follow The Rules.

In your case, you were given a hyphenated name at birth, it wasn't something you did to try to hold to tradition while not actually holding to tradition.
Yeah, and I also have the pleasure of knowing it was my father who decided on the hyphenation, which helps me remember how important feminist Daddies are.

I wouldn't subject any poor women, child, or Martian to taking my last name. Hell, I don't even want to have my last name.

I wouldn't subject any poor women, child, or Martian to taking my last name. Hell, I don't even want to have my last name.

What's so bad about "Hero"?

Unless your last name is "Pantless".

It's not, but you should at least try to leave men SOMEthing! :headbang:

When guys playing sports are shown on TV, who do they say hi to? Mom!

How many families celebrate Father's Day as often or as seriously as Mother's Day? None!

When Christmas rolls around and the kids thank someone for all the presents, who gets thanked? Mom!

Fathers have always been the forgotten man when it comes to passing out virtually anything! So now women want to take something else away? Why am I NOT surprised. :(
Give me a fucking break Eut. Wah wah wah.

I can imagine some very interesting combinations coming out of hyphenation (like the Greenwolfe example) but for some of the more boring names it could be pretty weird:

Jones-Smith
Evans-Robinson

Kids with names like that would be doomed to become accountants.:(

When guys playing sports are shown on TV, who do they say hi to? Mom!

And Jesus.


How many families celebrate Father's Day as often or as seriously as Mother's Day? None!

Um, mine. My boyfriends'. My cousin's. Shall I keep going, or would you prefer to continue making utterly unfounded assertions?


When Christmas rolls around and the kids thank someone for all the presents, who gets thanked? Mom!

Try Santa. Or Grandpa/Grandma (who invariably send the most lavish and indulgent gifts).

It sounds like your family was/is pretty messed up. In my family, people are honored for the contributions they make. Mom is the one we thank for the baking, because Mom does the baking. Dad is the one we thank for poaching the salmon, because Dad poaches the salmon. Since Mom and Dad are equal parents, their respective holidays are celebrated with equal enthusiasm.

In some households, Mom and Dad are not equal in parenting. Mom is the one expected to do most of the actual parenting, so it makes sense that Mother's Day would be a bigger deal than Father's Day. If you want to fix this, you should work to ensure that your family expects everybody to contribute equally, and (thus) that everybody gets thanked equally.


Fathers have always been the forgotten man when it comes to passing out virtually anything! So now women want to take something else away? Why am I NOT surprised. :(
Yes, fathers, who have been the lords and masters of both wives and children, those poor fathers have always been forgotten and oppressed. Those poor, poor men, who have held pride of ownership over offspring and womenfolk. When will somebody starting thinking about what MEN want?

And please do explain how a woman taking a man's name is related to FATHERhood? Are you saying that an adult woman is undermining fatherhood by keeping her own name, the name that (in most cases) she got from HER FATHER?

Thank heavens I have a father who doesn't feel oppressed by letting my mother enjoy equal respect and recognition, and who doesn't feel that his manhood or fatherhood is contingent upon marking his territory by pissing all over my mother's name.

Its much easier if the whole family has the same last name. If the family's name is Smith and the wifes name is Johnson, think of all the complications. If little Billy Smith is in school and is suspended and the call goes home and Mrs. Johnson picks up and the principal says, Mrs. Smith, your son... well the woman will get all indignant for no reason.

It's got to be one way or the other.

You can't hyphenate names for ever without ending up with absurdly long ones after a few generations.

Even if each member keeps their own name you then have the argument of what the children are named, and if you invent a new one each generation then it'd quickly get confusing.

You don't HAVE to anymore, but there is a strong cultural belief in North America that the woman should take her husband's last name. Even if she doesn't, the children rarely take the mother's name. It's thought of as strange...a denial of the father. Well what about the mother?

It wasn't until I met my husband that I realied this practice is not as widespread as I believed. Being from Chile, I assumed he would be 'traditional' and want me to change my name. But this is not usually done in Latin America. The woman keeps her own surname, and the children get the father's AND the mother's surname.

Taking the man's surname is a new tradition for my people as well. In our belief, the only parent you can be sure of is the mother. Oh yes, there are now paternity tests, and so on, and if it really matters, you may choose to spend the bucks to get one, but unless you are even suspicious, why would you? And why should it matter?

We look at things always down through the mother's line. Things are passed down through that line, heirlooms, knowledge, names. But now, we are following the North American custom of giving the children, and the wife, the surname of the man. This does not just affect our names...(hell, we didn't HAVE surnames before contact anyway), but it actually affects our lines of succession. It's rather annoying.

So what are your opinions on this? Why is it important that a wife, or children, take the man's surname?

I plan to take my future wife's surname upon marriage provided I can spell it. She hasn't told me what it is yet, thought. Sinuhue, please, don't you think it's time you tell me your last name? ;)

Seriously, I've told my family this since I was a teenager. My family isn't even my original family name. It was adopted about a hundred years ago when it was easier to get a job in Chicago if your name sounded Irish. Bang, zoom, a -ski last name becomes an Irish name.

In the Catholic tradition at least, a marriage is meant to be the foundation of a domestic church. A name change signifies the sign of a covenent, like when Abram became Abraham and Simon became Peter. And to be sure, it's not always the man's name. In Spainish cultures, they take compound names: if Juan Diaz marries Maria Sanchez, they become Juan Diaz y Sanchez and Maria Sanchez y Diaz (anyone more familiar with Latin culture can correct me). When some of my friends got married, the guy changed his first name to his last name and they took her last name.

No they don't. The man keeps his name, and the woman keeps hers. In some countries, the woman may add the husband's name (Maria Sanchez y Diaz). The children's names would be X Diaz Sanchez.

Give me a fucking break Eut. Wah wah wah.
Oh? You mean kinda like all the "wah, wah, wah" men have to put up with from Feminazis? :headbang:

Because it's tradition. If you don't follow it, people will get confused.

If that's not a good enough reason for you, do whatever the hell you want.

There is no reason to get married otherwise. Just live together.
Traditionally, I'm the head of the household. No one I know has a problem with that.
No reason to get married if the names aren't changed? So you just got married so someone would take your name? I doubt that. A surname does not dictate who is 'head' of the household.

My household must be freakish. There are two heads.

What do you do with a kid whose parents both had hyphenated names, and who has therefore a thrice-hyphenated last name?

Laugh at him. A lot.

When my mom married she took my dad's last name, but I really hope that my sister keeps our last name (and passes it on to any kids she might have). I probably wouldn't care if we had a common last name, but it's quite rare in Canada and through some strange twist of fate all my dad's brothers that married had only daughters, and all his sisters took their husband's names.

Though it doesn't really matter that much in the end, it would just be nice to keep the name going a bit longer.

On a broader basis, I think it's a good idea for people to start moving away from the assumption that women should take their husbands' last names. I mean, if people think about it and decide they want it that way, it's fine, but nobody should just assume that a woman will or should take the man's name upon marriage.

who cares it gives men more authority dosen't it:p

Oh, tradition, or as I like to call it: "the heterosexist orthodoxy and its treatment of women like chattel." I prefer to treat women like cattle. That way, if you're hungry, you can butcher and eat them.

Anyway, reasons for the name thing? Well, on average, the women that I've met don't have very nice surnames… so it's only logical that they'd take their husband's name. Nobody likes an ugly name, now, do they?

No they don't. The man keeps his name, and the woman keeps hers. In some countries, the woman may add the husband's name (Maria Sanchez y Diaz). The children's names would be X Diaz Sanchez.
Ah, I must have misunderstood when it was explained to me. Mea culpa.

Oh? You mean kinda like all the "wah, wah, wah" men have to put up with from Feminazis? :headbang:
Sure. The feminazis. Put your tinfoil hat on Eut. There is nothing feminazi about a woman wanting to keep her own name. This whole surname issue is a cultural one...and in cultures much more traditional than ours, it isn't even an issue at all. So what does that tell you?

I personally see no problem with "taking" my fiance's last name. Both of us have a mixed Irish/Scottish heritage, and it appears that our families' paths have crossed at least once before, whether in war, politics, or marriage(what's the difference?), so we don't really see any difference.

It's not, but you should at least try to leave men SOMEthing! :headbang:

When guys playing sports are shown on TV, who do they say hi to? Mom!

How many families celebrate Father's Day as often or as seriously as Mother's Day? None!

When Christmas rolls around and the kids thank someone for all the presents, who gets thanked? Mom!

Fathers have always been the forgotten man when it comes to passing out virtually anything! So now women want to take something else away? Why am I NOT surprised. :(

Couldn't disagree more. I think this is another case of remembering what bothers you. Any chance you remember who Michael Jordon or Tiger Woods was more likely to thank? Hint: it wasn't Mom.

While we're on sports, what's the comparative pay for female atheletes to males? And female atheletes very commonly thank their fathers for the support.

Ever heard the terms momma's boy and daddy's little girl.

In many homes, Dad gets a fishing pole or a bowling ball for Christmas. What does Mom get? A sewing machine, a toaster oven, a set of pans.

There are biases and disparities all over the place. Let's not pretend like they all go only one way.

Its much easier if the whole family has the same last name. If the family's name is Smith and the wifes name is Johnson, think of all the complications. If little Billy Smith is in school and is suspended and the call goes home and Mrs. Johnson picks up and the principal says, Mrs. Smith, your son... well the woman will get all indignant for no reason.
thats long gone by the wayside. schools have to pay strict attention to names these days. there are all kinds of forms to fill out to minimize that little fauxpas

after all, with most children living in a household that doesnt include both biological parents there are bound to be lots of kids whose various guardians have different last names.

You don't HAVE to anymore, but there is a strong cultural belief in North America *snip*
Correction: In the United States.

Here in Canada this is, as far as I'm aware, a custom that has fallen into desuetude a while ago.

The answer anyway is: she *shouldn't*. Taking the man's name was all well and good back when women were objects to be possessed by their husband. Now that we're all equal, they most certainly should not give up their own name in favor of their husband's.

Oh? You mean kinda like all the "wah, wah, wah" men have to put up with from Feminazis? :headbang:
Yeah, those crazy spoiled bitches.

"We want to vote!"
"We want to be allowed to own property!"
"We want to be paid fair wages!"
"We don't want to be named 'Ofjoshua' and 'Ofwilliam' anymore!"

Gosh, women, get over yourselves! Submit, already, and quit with the uppittiness. Real men like them some quiet, obedient womenfolk.

You know, rationally, it makes no difference whatsoever. I've heard of men who take on the woman's last name as well. A prof at my university has both her last name, and his, un-hyphenated, and he's done the same thing. Sort of interesting.
And yet, at the thought of a woman not wanting to take on my last name, there's some sort of instinctive reflex I get that something's wrong with the relationship. I have NO idea why. It was a total gut response to reading the title, which is odd, because when I think about it, it's silly.
I guess I look at it as a commitment issue... if she's not willing to take on my last name, it's sort of a reluctance to show she's associated with me? That being said, if she wanted to take on my last name, and keep hers, I guess that'd be okay, as long as she was fine with me doing the same thing. :P But my name is already pretty long... throwing another name in there would make it a painful signature. I already only scribble what I have to write. :P

You don't HAVE to anymore, but there is a strong cultural belief in North America that the woman should take her husband's last name. Even if she doesn't, the children rarely take the mother's name. It's thought of as strange...a denial of the father. Well what about the mother?

It wasn't until I met my husband that I realied this practice is not as widespread as I believed. Being from Chile, I assumed he would be 'traditional' and want me to change my name. But this is not usually done in Latin America. The woman keeps her own surname, and the children get the father's AND the mother's surname.

Taking the man's surname is a new tradition for my people as well. In our belief, the only parent you can be sure of is the mother. Oh yes, there are now paternity tests, and so on, and if it really matters, you may choose to spend the bucks to get one, but unless you are even suspicious, why would you? And why should it matter?

We look at things always down through the mother's line. Things are passed down through that line, heirlooms, knowledge, names. But now, we are following the North American custom of giving the children, and the wife, the surname of the man. This does not just affect our names...(hell, we didn't HAVE surnames before contact anyway), but it actually affects our lines of succession. It's rather annoying.

So what are your opinions on this? Why is it important that a wife, or children, take the man's surname?
It is not a North American thing--it was a European thing---I dont know if it still remains so.

But it is tradition--just like ignoring the father would be Latin American tradition as you imply.
I ask why bother presuming one tradition is better then another?

I think that is really absurd.

WHy not both of you change names to a completely different name, and give the children different last names--you can do that.

As a matter of fact, get married and change your name to something different, but not his, he should change his name to something different but not yours, and each child should get their own brand new last name.

Point--A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Oh and anyone who suggests it is tool of oppression to take a spouses name is simply an diot who deserves to die alone in their paranoid fantasy world.

I dont know any women who were not allowed to Vote, Work, Drive, attend UNiversity, whatever.
Women today have no concept of what it was like for women of the Sufferage mvements--and those women were not Feminists--they respected the institution of Marriage, Motherhood(No single more important career in the world and Feminists reduce it tot he lowest thing a women could strive for), Wives(The second most important career in the world, for what good man has not needed his great wife). Feminsts are just militant c**ts who should be left in the street to beg for the aid of real women.

thats long gone by the wayside. schools have to pay strict attention to names these days. there are all kinds of forms to fill out to minimize that little fauxpas

after all, with most children living in a household that doesnt include both biological parents there are bound to be lots of kids whose various guardians have different last names.
Yup. And if people get confused, that's their problem. Parents names are right there on the enrollment forms. No one has ever called me by my husband's last name...not a single document names me that way, so why should they?

There are biases and disparities all over the place. Let's not pretend like they all go only one way.
Shhhh! You're trying to be rational! I've shifted into "irrational mode" today for a change of pace. :D

Its much easier if the whole family has the same last name. If the family's name is Smith and the wifes name is Johnson, think of all the complications. If little Billy Smith is in school and is suspended and the call goes home and Mrs. Johnson picks up and the principal says, Mrs. Smith, your son... well the woman will get all indignant for no reason.
Actually, I've been in this situation many times. My mother will not "get all indignant for no reason," she will simply correct the mistake. She will only become annoyed if people persist in using the wrong name after she has politely corrected them...but I'm sure you would do the same thing if somebody continued to call you Mr. Smith when your name was really Mr. Johnson. You wouldn't consider that "getting indignant for no reason," you would consider it legitmate annoyance with a person who is being rude.

The only time it's been a problem was with a set of relatives who insisted on sending holiday gifts addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. DadName." Not only were they at my parents' wedding, where the name selections were made very clear, but they were also individually corrected about their mistake. They continued to send mis-addressed gifts, until my parents started returning the gifts, unopenned, with the note "No such persons reside at this address."

Shhhh! You're trying to be rational! I've shifted into "irrational mode" today for a change of pace. :D

*ahem* uh-huh. Change of pace. Yep. *nods*

Correction: In the United States.

Here in Canada this is, as far as I'm aware, a custom that has fallen into desuetude a while ago. No more than it has in the US. You may live in a particular community where it isn't common, but that is by no means a national indicator.

The answer anyway is: she *shouldn't*. Taking the man's name was all well and good back when women were objects to be possessed by their husband. Now that we're all equal, they most certainly should not give up their own name in favor of their husband's.
What about children?

After all this posturing, I still think my reason is the best. If your name has a great particular heritage, or you're the last chance to carry it on, then sure, keep it I suppose. In most cases though it shouldn't mater a lick either way.

Or do what my Dad's family has been doing since time immemorial. Firstbornn son takes wife's maiden name as a second middle name.

When two gay men get married, what is the convention with their last names?

And yet, at the thought of a woman not wanting to take on my last name, there's some sort of instinctive reflex I get that something's wrong with the relationship. I have NO idea why. It was a total gut response to reading the title, which is odd, because when I think about it, it's silly.
That's what I mean...it's a custom that isn't often analysed. I thought I was going to have to fight to keep my name, and I really avoided the subject. Then I found out it wasn't even a custom in my husband's culture! All that worry for nothing! I had to explain that to my father though, because he thought I was being rude:rolleyes:

When two gay men get married, what is the convention with their last names?

I dunno, whoever's taller? Older?

No more than it has in the US. You may live in a particular community where it isn't common, but that is by no means a national indicator.


What about children?

Personally, I don't really get the point of last names, even for children. One day, when I have children they are perfectly welcome to create a new last name when they form each of their families. I actually prefer my mother's maiden name if I had to take a name from my ancestry.

Little known fact - I can trace my mother's maiden name back to the first white person. Bow down before your master.

When two gay men get married, what is the convention with their last names?
Like most things surrounding gay marriage, there isn't one. Some gay couples try to mimic "traditional" marriage by choosing one partner's name to share. They usually choose based on which sounds best, or on who feels most strongly about their name. Hyphenated or merged family names are also popular. There are many couples who go a step further and change BOTH of their names to a completely new surname.

It is not a North American thing--it was a European thing---I dont know if it still remains so. Neither do I, which is why I stick to North America...though since that includes Mexico, I revised that to Canada and the US. I don't want to speak for Europe.

But it is tradition--just like ignoring the father would be Latin American tradition as you imply. Ignoring the father? How's that? The children get BOTH parents names...neither parent is 'ignored'.
I ask why bother presuming one tradition is better then another?

I think that is really absurd. Who ever made a value judgement about which tradition is better? I'm just questioning the tradition. For fuck's sake...why does everyone have to assume that because a topic is brought up, it's a fucking rant?

Personally, I don't really get the point of last names, even for children. One day, when I have children they are perfectly welcome to create a new last name when they form each of their families. I actually prefer my mother's maiden name if I had to take a name from my ancestry.

My father wanted to not name me at all, but instead to refer to me as "baby" until I was old enough to talk. At that time, I would be allowed to choose my own name, and to change it as often as I liked until my 13th birthday. On my 13th birthday, I would have to pick which name I was going to keep.

(13th birthday was chosen because I was born on the 13th. No real reason for it.)

When two gay men get married, what is the convention with their last names?
Seeing as how they are both men, I assume it goes to whoever has the coolest last name.

Like most things surrounding gay marriage, there isn't one. Some gay couples try to mimic "traditional" marriage by choosing one partner's name to share. They usually choose based on which sounds best, or on who feels most strongly about their name. Hyphenated or merged family names are also popular. There are many couples who go a step further and change BOTH of their names to a completely new surname.

They combine them to form a new supername!

Smith! Jones! Transform into...Smones!

When two gay men get married, what is the convention with their last names?
I think that might have a hand in dispelling the tradition actually...showing that the surname really doesn't matter. Choose whatever pleases you both.

They combine them to form a new supername!

Smith! Jones! Transform into...Smones! Simone Simons!:eek:

Personally, I don't really get the point of last names, even for children. One day, when I have children they are perfectly welcome to create a new last name when they form each of their families. I actually prefer my mother's maiden name if I had to take a name from my ancestry.


The point is to be able to differentiate between them, and they can't choose from birth.

At least a woman in Canada or the US is no longer (usually) referred to as "Mrs. (husband's first name)." It used to be pretty common. How silly...Mrs. James Ross. Weird!

its an annoying tradition that should go by the wayside


Or its a tradition that people should adhear to if they want to. If they dont they can choose not to.

They combine them to form a new supername!

Smith! Jones! Transform into...Smones!
Yes, but imagine what would happen with one gay couple I know:

Rambachandran and Wojciechowski. *shudder* Think of the poor children.

I think that might have a hand in dispelling the tradition actually...showing that the surname really doesn't matter. Choose whatever pleases you both. People often say that a problem with hyphenated/combined names is that it would be confusing if children were involved. Gay couples don't have this problem.

People often say that a problem with hyphenated/combined names is that it would be confusing if children were involved. Gay couples don't have this problem.
That's a silly thing to say. Plenty of gay couples have children...biological (though clearly not both are the parents) or adopted.

Okay, there seems to be some debate over the long term effects of taking on both names, and having some child with the name:
Bonny Crystal Smith-Jones-Johnston-Johnson-Smythe-Davidson-Blake-Johnson

Can you imagine being the child having to spell that? :P It might make tracing your family roots through a family tree easier... and you could see if you had any freaky inbreeding going on...
Maybe use one of the last names as a middle name for the children?
So you'd have:
Bonny Blake Johnson
Then when she marries, she changes it to Bonny Blake Johnson-Smith.
Stupid problems brought up from hyphenization. If you hyphenate, you should be disallowed the right of reproduction, to avoid such problems! :P Hehehe

Yes, but imagine what would happen with one gay couple I know:

Rambachandran and Wojciechowski. *shudder* Think of the poor children.

We can hyphenate and shorten it - to Rambo.

That's a silly thing to say. Plenty of gay couples have children...biological (though clearly not both are the parents) or adopted.

Errr... my mom has me, but I don't consider her lesbian partner another mother, really... So I don't know if I'd say that that couple has children... but my mom does. :) But that whole thing came up later in my life, so maybe it might be different for a younger child who grew up with the same situation

Okay, there seems to be some debate over the long term effects of taking on both names, and having some child with the name:
Bonny Crystal Smith-Jones-Johnston-Johnson-Smythe-Davidson-Blake-Johnson In most jurisdictions, only one hyphenation is allowed.

No more than it has in the US. You may live in a particular community where it isn't common, but that is by no means a national indicator.

Well, it most certainly is a provincial indicator. I Live in Québec, and except for elderly married women, taking the husband's name upon marriage is pretty much unheard of.



What about children?
Children, up until a decade or so ago, used to take on the father's name. Nowadays, a popular custom is to give both parent's family names to the children (or choosing one of the parent's names to avoid having more than 2 family names).

Otherwise, parents may also choose to give the child only one name, but that's not invariably the husband's. I've seen instances of children taking the mother's name.

The point is to be able to differentiate between them, and they can't choose from birth.

Differentiate between who? If each of my children have different last names how is that effectively any different than the current system? It's not. You can figure out who are siblings and who are whose children, but to be honest I want my children to rise and fall on their own merits not on the actions of their siblings or parents. I spent a lot of time defending my not-so-well-behaved brother's actions on the first couple days of class with one of his old teachers. I had enough behavior problems without answering for his.

The reality is that there is no reason to think that names are the glue that holds a family together. My family is brought together and held together by love and no surname holds any sway over that.

Yes, but imagine what would happen with one gay couple I know:

Rambachandran and Wojciechowski. *shudder* Think of the poor children.

Rambachowski sounds awesome, though.

In most jurisdictions, only one hyphenation is allowed.

Then how would the child pick which last name to keep, if they've grown up as Johnson-Smith?

Errr... my mom has me, but I don't consider her lesbian partner another mother, really... So I don't know if I'd say that that couple has children... but my mom does. :) But that whole thing came up later in my life, so maybe it might be different for a younger child who grew up with the same situation
I think it's the same for some people with a step-mom or dad...they don't really consider them their mother or father, but they are a parent. And yes, I suppose it depends.

Neither do I, which is why I stick to North America...though since that includes Mexico, I revised that to Canada and the US. I don't want to speak for Europe.

Ignoring the father? How's that? The children get BOTH parents names...neither parent is 'ignored'.
Who ever made a value judgement about which tradition is better? I'm just questioning the tradition. For fuck's sake...why does everyone have to assume that because a topic is brought up, it's a fucking rant?
;)

Rambachowski sounds awesome, though.
Shorten it to Rambo.

No reason to get married if the names aren't changed? So you just got married so someone would take your name? I doubt that. A surname does not dictate who is 'head' of the household.

My household must be freakish. There are two heads.


No-it sounds like there is really only one head in your family.

The buck has to ultimately stop somewhere, Sin. A family isnt a democracy-its a dictatorship.
I take absolute responsibilty for my family's decisions. I do take advice and do defer on certain things, but ultimately, its me.

Then how would the child pick which last name to keep, if they've grown up as Johnson-Smith?
They either keep their hyphenated name, or take their spouse's name, or create a new name. Just like anyone else. The hyphenations are generally not allowed to be combined.

*snip*
:rolleyes:

No-it sounds like there is really only one head in your family.

The buck has to ultimately stop somewhere, Sin. A family isnt a democracy-its a dictatorship.
I take absolute responsibilty for my family's decisions. I do take advice and do defer on certain things, but ultimately, its me.

If families were democracies, then NO couple would ever have more than two children.

No-it sounds like there is really only one head in your family. Well, then you're hearing it wrong.

The buck has to ultimately stop somewhere, Sin. A family isnt a democracy-its a dictatorship. No, that may be how your family runs, but it isn't how my family runs. Nor was I raised in such a family.
I take absolute responsibilty for my family's decisions. I do take advice and do defer on certain things, but ultimately, its me.
Then that's how your family chose to be. In our case, we work more like a military junta. Both of us 'head' the family, and the children are our minions.

No-it sounds like there is really only one head in your family.

The buck has to ultimately stop somewhere, Sin. A family isnt a democracy-its a dictatorship.
I take absolute responsibilty for my family's decisions. I do take advice and do defer on certain things, but ultimately, its me.

Alas, I find myself partly agreeing with this...
Without a defined power structure, there is not guiding force for the family...
We see this in instances where parents don't act like parents, and instead try to be their child's best friend.
Certainly, there should be consultation between partners. No one should think they can make all the decisions on their own. And I'm not saying WHICH partner should be the final decision maker... because sometimes the woman is the dominant one in the relationship, sometimes it's the man. But someone has to call the shots.

No-it sounds like there is really only one head in your family.

The buck has to ultimately stop somewhere, Sin. A family isnt a democracy-its a dictatorship.
I take absolute responsibilty for my family's decisions. I do take advice and do defer on certain things, but ultimately, its me.

im sure that works fine in your family. other families work differently with both adults making family decisions.

Then that's how your family chose to be. In our case, we work more like a military junta. Both of us 'head' the family, and the children are our minions.

Ahahahahahaha!!! I want minions. :P

Alas, I find myself partly agreeing with this...
Without a defined power structure, there is not guiding force for the family...
We see this in instances where parents don't act like parents, and instead try to be their child's best friend. Don't go and confuse the issue. It's not "one person must be the head of the family, or the parenting is bad". Parents are partners...would you really want your partner as 'head' of the family to unilateraly veto your decisions?
Certainly, there should be consultation between partners. No one should think they can make all the decisions on their own. And I'm not saying WHICH partner should be the final decision maker... because sometimes the woman is the dominant one in the relationship, sometimes it's the man. But someone has to call the shots.
Yes, someone needs to call the shots. The PARENTS.

Then that's how your family chose to be. In our case, we work more like a military junta. Both of us 'head' the family, and the children are our minions.

I thought we were in an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We (the parents) take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more...

Ahahahahahaha!!! I want minions. :P
You should see the 1 1/2 year old screw up her face and in a creaky witchy voice say, "Yes my master?" It's HILARIOUS!!!!

If families were democracies, then NO couple would ever have more than two children.
what an odd thing to say. why would you ever say such a thing?

what an odd thing to say. why would you ever say such a thing?
I think he's assuming (jokingly) that the woman would veto further childbearing after the pain of two:).

The answer anyway is: she *shouldn't*. Taking the man's name was all well and good back when women were objects to be possessed by their husband. Now that we're all equal, they most certainly should not give up their own name in favor of their husband's.

I wouldn't go as far as to say *shouldn't*. I would simply say she shouldn't feel obligated to do so. I have no particular attachment to my surname, and wouldn't really care from any sentimental if it were changed, unless it were changed to something that sounded awful with my first and middle names. Thus, if my boyfriend and I decide that we will both go with his last name when we marry, no problem. It isn't a possession thing, it would be something he and I decided together.

Differentiate between who? If each of my children have different last names how is that effectively any different than the current system? It's not. You can figure out who are siblings and who are whose children, but to be honest I want my children to rise and fall on their own merits not on the actions of their siblings or parents. I spent a lot of time defending my not-so-well-behaved brother's actions on the first couple days of class with one of his old teachers. I had enough behavior problems without answering for his.

The reality is that there is no reason to think that names are the glue that holds a family together. My family is brought together and held together by love and no surname holds any sway over that.

But they do need A surname so you can differentiate between the different John's, Paul's etc So you have to use one parent's name (if you hyphenate you end up with the huge number of names syndrome) and they can't invent a new on e from birth. Either the parents pick a new random surname, or it has to be one of the parents, if it needs to be one, why not the husbands.


Someone mentioned female sports stars being paid less, surely that would be because they perform to a lower level.

I thought we were in an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We (the parents) take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more...King? Well I didn't vote for you! Just because some watery tart tossed you a sword...

Anyway.

Don't go and confuse the issue. It's not "one person must be the head of the family, or the parenting is bad". Parents are partners...would you really want your partner as 'head' of the family to unilateraly veto your decisions?

I don't know how I would handle strong opposition in a situation like that. But there will be times when they don't agree, and then how do you make a decision? There is no majority rules with only 2 people. It's likely that the dominant one in the relationship will make the final call, I would think.

Yes, someone needs to call the shots. The PARENTS.

Again, what if they're in disagreement? The child would get confused if they had two different messages coming from the parents.

I dont know any women who were not allowed to Vote, Work, Drive, attend UNiversity, whatever.
Women today have no concept of what it was like for women of the Sufferage mvements--and those women were not Feminists--they respected the institution of Marriage, Motherhood(No single more important career in the world and Feminists reduce it tot he lowest thing a women could strive for), Wives(The second most important career in the world, for what good man has not needed his great wife). Feminsts are just militant c**ts who should be left in the street to beg for the aid of real women.

You seem to be doing an awful lot of silly generalizing here.....

what an odd thing to say. why would you ever say such a thing?

Because when there are three children, bedtime, school, and "don't sit so close to the television" will all be repealed by popular vote.

The only time it's been a problem was with a set of relatives who insisted on sending holiday gifts addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. DadName." Not only were they at my parents' wedding, where the name selections were made very clear, but they were also individually corrected about their mistake. They continued to send mis-addressed gifts, until my parents started returning the gifts, unopenned, with the note "No such persons reside at this address."

LOL!

My brother's name is spelled "Shawn" instead of the (supposedly more traditional) "Sean". My aunt insisted for years on sending him cards addressed to "Sean," (which he pronounces as seen). She got out of the habit eventually though, when he started telling her it was wrong instead of just my parents doing it.

im sure that works fine in your family. other families work differently with both adults making family decisions.

It does, so far. No-dont get me wrong-I am not saying or implying that my wife is subservient to me or the kids should be seen and not heard and all that stuff. My wife is very intelligent and I look for-NO-I NEED- and respect her opinion and advice on whatever we do. We've been together a long time.
I'm searching for an example that would best illustrate what I mean, but I'm at a total loss for some reason.

Let me go ask my wife.

I don't know about anyone else, culturally or personally, but for me it isn't my father's surname, it's a family name - it binds together our, for want of a better word (and being Welsh, not scottish), clan. I have more relatives with that surname than I could remember the faces of, but every time I've met any of them we have an instant familial connection.

And it's history as well. We can trace our family tree back god knows how many generations (my grandfather's hobby) and apparently, based upon our families rule of the Princedom of Glamorgan sometime around 500 AD I'm 49,629th in line to the throne of Britain! How totally cool is that? ;)

Anyway - For me, it's all about blood, bone and history. Thats what my surname is about, not some little hillock on the battlefield of the gender wars.

I don't know how I would handle strong opposition in a situation like that. But there will be times when they don't agree, and then how do you make a decision? There is no majority rules with only 2 people. It's likely that the dominant one in the relationship will make the final call, I would think. Carnivorous has it right in one sense...it's not a democracy, because it isn't politics. It's a relationship, and if you want it to work, you reach consensus. When my husband and I disagree on something, we talk it out before a decision is made. For example...moving the television to the basement. He wanted it kept up, I wanted it gone. We talked about it for weeks, and finally arrived at a decision. I won't say what it was, because it doesn't matter...it's not a case of winning or losing...it's a case of, people get bloody resentful when you force them to do something they don't want to do, and if you want to avoid that you talk it out. If either one of us just decided to 'make the final call'...on what authority would that be? He currently makes more money than me, so he should have the final say? Or I'm the one who has the primary care of the children, so I should? No. It doesn't work that way.



Again, what if they're in disagreement? The child would get confused if they had two different messages coming from the parents.
You don't do that to your kids. We never argue in front of them. And decisions get discussed in private...none of this...dad said no, so I'll ask mom and she'll say yes crap.

Let me go ask my wife.
:p That sounds like a partnership to me...

You seem to be doing an awful lot of silly generalizing here.....
Man...I can't find that post...did he/she delete it or something?

Oh, tradition, or as I like to call it: "the heterosexist orthodoxy and its treatment of women like chattel."

Indeed. It really is a stupid practice.

:p That sounds like a partnership to me...
Well, the other day, the wife asked me to go out to our wood shed and bring in enough wood to fill the wood box inside the house (about 1/4 cord), and I told her I wasn't going to do it this weekend because it was getting cold and I had things to do....

Anyway, I was bringing the wood in the house when...

Man...I can't find that post...did he/she delete it or something?

No, it's still there. Page 5.

Why should a woman take a man's last name upon marriage?Why get married at all?

Why get married at all?

Makes it easier to get medical insurance.

Carnivorous has it right in one sense...it's not a democracy, because it isn't politics. It's a relationship, and if you want it to work, you reach consensus. When my husband and I disagree on something, we talk it out before a decision is made. For example...moving the television to the basement. He wanted it kept up, I wanted it gone. We talked about it for weeks, and finally arrived at a decision. I won't say what it was, because it doesn't matter...it's not a case of winning or losing...it's a case of, people get bloody resentful when you force them to do something they don't want to do, and if you want to avoid that you talk it out. If either one of us just decided to 'make the final call'...on what authority would that be? He currently makes more money than me, so he should have the final say? Or I'm the one who has the primary care of the children, so I should? No. It doesn't work that way.

Okay, that's more of a minor issue, for the placing of a television... I mean, if you had a real, fundamental difference, to which you can debate the point forever, with both sides feeling they are right and justified... if the television thing was such a fundamental argument, I think the only solution would be to buy another tv and put it downstairs so you both get what you want. :P


You don't do that to your kids. We never argue in front of them. And decisions get discussed in private...none of this...dad said no, so I'll ask mom and she'll say yes crap.

Okay, that's a reasonable solution.
I just foresee ... differences of opinion on a lot of issues with me and my now-gf (possibly fiancee in a couple days? ;) ) because she was raised an only child, and I have a younger sister... so our ideas of raising a family are a little different. It should be interesting...

Well, the other day, the wife asked me to go out to our wood shed and bring in enough wood to fill the wood box inside the house (about 1/4 cord), and I told her I wasn't going to do it this weekend because it was getting cold and I had things to do....

Anyway, I was bringing the wood in the house when...
Hah, sounds like when my husband asked me to fill out some paperwork for his cousin, because my English is better than his, and I said I was reading and I'd do it the next day...

I got the 'look'. We pass it back and forth frequently. I did as asked.

.... For example...moving the television to the basement. He wanted it kept up, I wanted it gone. We talked about it for weeks, and finally arrived at a decision. I won't say what it was, because it doesn't matter...it's not a case of winning or losing...it's a case of, people get bloody resentful when you force them to do something they don't want to do, and if you want to avoid that you talk it out. If either one of us just decided to 'make the final call'...on what authority would that be? He currently makes more money than me, so he should have the final say? Or I'm the one who has the primary care of the children, so I should? No. It doesn't work that way.


You don't do that to your kids. We never argue in front of them. And decisions get discussed in private...none of this...dad said no, so I'll ask mom and she'll say yes crap.

Wherever the TV wound up is where the true power in your household lies.

My wife and I dont disagree in front of the children-aside from trivial things here and there.
But things that count, we will discuss privately. I always take her advice seriously-she has been the best source of guidance, the stabilizing, rationality for me for 20 yrs now. (and for 13 of those we've been married)

She was happy to take my last name. She didnt "have to", just like I didnt have to get married. I like the tradition and so does she.

That may be a sentiment thats losing ground these days.

Why get married at all?
Again, unless you think marriage is solely about taking someone's last name, this question is pointless.

Okay, that's more of a minor issue, for the placing of a television... I mean, if you had a real, fundamental difference, to which you can debate the point forever, with both sides feeling they are right and justified... if the television thing was such a fundamental argument, I think the only solution would be to buy another tv and put it downstairs so you both get what you want. :P Trust me. This was a MAJOR issue. It wasn't just about the placement of the television, it was about whether or not our children should watch it at all. It became a huge debate about how we want to raise our kids. It was good.


Okay, that's a reasonable solution.
I just foresee ... differences of opinion on a lot of issues with me and my now-gf (possibly fiancee in a couple days? ;) ) because she was raised an only child, and I have a younger sister... so our ideas of raising a family are a little different. It should be interesting...Relationships are about compromise. If one partner never does, it's not going to be a good relationship. It can't all be one person's way.

Wherever the TV wound up is where the true power in your household lies. Bullshit. That decision went one way. Other decisions have gone the other way.

My wife and I dont disagree in front of the children-aside from trivial things here and there.
But things that count, we will discuss privately. I always take her advice seriously-she has been the best source of guidance, the stabilizing, rationality for me for 20 yrs now. (and for 13 of those we've been married)

She was happy to take my last name. She didnt "have to", just like I didnt have to get married. I like the tradition and so does she.

That may be a sentiment thats losing ground these days.
But I still don't understand why you think you are the final say...and the true power in your household.

:p That sounds like a partnership to me...


Of course it is. But,when it boils down to the ultimate moment, its me.

Who went after the guy walking his dog along the front of my property to take care of the matter and prevent it from happening again?

Who deals with the landscaper, plumber or car salesman when the moment of truth arrives?

Who picks her 90 year old grandmother that lives with us off the floor when she falls? Who made it possible for her to live with us in the first place?

I am the one here that everyone knows will get the job done or protect them when all is said and done. The one that subconsciously makes them all feel confident, safe and secure.

Which leaves me laying awake often, late at night.

I'm just trying to clarify.

In the Catholic tradition at least, a marriage is meant to be the foundation of a domestic church. A name change signifies the sign of a covenent, like when Abram became Abraham and Simon became Peter. And to be sure, it's not always the man's name. In Spainish cultures, they take compound names: if Juan Diaz marries Maria Sanchez, they become Juan Diaz y Sanchez and Maria Sanchez y Diaz (anyone more familiar with Latin culture can correct me). When some of my friends got married, the guy changed his first name to his last name and they took her last name.

I guess my point is, if you're going to change your name, you might as well have a reason. If you expect there to be an "after marriage," then why change names?

Not really. In Spain, if Juan Díaz Pérez marries María Sánchez Mora they don't change their names (Juan will remain as Juan Díaz Pérez and María as María Sánchez Mora). If they have a children named Felipe, he will be Felipe Díaz Sánchez or Felipe Sánchez Díaz.

Bullshit. That decision went one way. Other decisions have gone the other way.



You're protesting too loudly. That TV is downstairs, huh?

You seem to be doing an awful lot of silly generalizing here.....
You mean something similar to comparing the taking of a last name to the oppression of women.

Quote in context, anyone can take an exerpt of a cnversation and place their imagined witty tag and patthemselves on the back as having said something intelligent, that doesnt make it so, so spare your ill attempts at keen observations and sharp quips--it is just sad.

Of course it is. But,when it boils down to the ultimate moment, its me.

Who went after the guy walking his dog along the front of my property to take care of the matter and prevent it from happening again?

Who deals with the landscaper, plumber or car salesman when the moment of truth arrives?

Who picks her 90 year old grandmother that lives with us off the floor when she falls? Who made it possible for her to live with us in the first place?

I am the one here that everyone knows will get the job done or protect them when all is said and done. The one that subconsciously makes them all feel confident, safe and secure.

Which leaves me laying awake often, late at night. I'm sure that burden is shared in other ways. A division in labour does not mean one partner is more the 'head' than the other. My husband kills the spiders. I clean up the puke.

But they do need A surname so you can differentiate between the different John's, Paul's etc So you have to use one parent's name (if you hyphenate you end up with the huge number of names syndrome) and they can't invent a new on e from birth. Either the parents pick a new random surname, or it has to be one of the parents, if it needs to be one, why not the husbands.

How do you differentiate between the different John Smiths and the differ Paul Johnsons? Or one could try giving their children original names. How do you think we got last names in the first place? They were either to suggest your job or whose son you were (how do you tell which John's son you were) in some cases. However, many of the last names in the US were just randomly picked because we either couldn't spell the last name of an immigrant or they didn't have one. Why stop picking now? Or why not have it reflect something about me? I could be Eric Philosopher. Or Eric Maleextraordinare.

And why not the wife's? Why not both? It's far more unlikely that you will have two children with the same first and last name if the surname contains the names of both parents as in Latin families. Your convention is not my convention.

Someone mentioned female sports stars being paid less, surely that would be because they perform to a lower level.
Ridiculous. It has nothing to do with performance. It's because of convention. We have always watched male atheletes so we continue to do so. Male sports get more of a viewing share and thus more money.

I'm sure that burden is shared in other ways. A division in labour does not mean one partner is more the 'head' than the other. My husband kills the spiders. I clean up the puke.

My wife an analogy we like to use:

The old WWF "tag team" (we even will "tag" each other when one needs a break).

You're protesting too loudly. That TV is downstairs, huh?
HA! I knew you'd push it.

Actually it's not. We reached a compromise. It's only one for an hour a day when the kids are home (only children's programming), and we scheduled the adult shows (for me, Lost, for him, it's some travel show) once a week each.
Again, it wasn't about placement, it was about how much tv was being watched by our kids.

I'm sure that burden is shared in other ways. A division in labour does not mean one partner is more the 'head' than the other. My husband kills the spiders. I clean up the puke.


I guess you're not going to understand. Thats ok. You and I would never get along anyway. You'd spend most of the time locked in a foot locker in my office with a hair drier for ventilation. And that ball in your mouth.
:p

You mean something similar to comparing the taking of a last name to the oppression of women. No one did that. The point was brought up that the tradition lies in the concept that women were chattel. Which is historically true. No one is saying that it is a current attempt to oppress women. Next strawman please.

Quote in context, anyone can take an exerpt of a cnversation and place their imagined witty tag and patthemselves on the back as having said something intelligent, that doesnt make it so, so spare your ill attempts at keen observations and sharp quips--it is just sad.
I hope you take your own advice, because your quote was nothing more than a rant, spewing forth hatred toward a group you clearly know nothing about, and countering arguments that were not made.

im sure that works fine in your family. other families work differently with both adults making family decisions.

Both or often more adults making the decisions. It is not uncommon in some cultures for large groups of parents working together to raise their children. It also not uncommon for grandparents to be involved in the process.

HA! I new you'd push it.

Actually it's not. We reached a compromise. It's only one for an hour a day when the kids are home (only children's programming), and we scheduled the adult shows (for me, Lost, for him, it's some travel show) once a week each.
Again, it wasn't about placement, it was about how much tv was being watched by our kids.

Sin-that reeks of something you just made up to get me off your back. Only you need to know the answer,though. I already do.

They combine them to form a new supername!

Smith! Jones! Transform into...Smones!
But "Joneth" would be much cooler. Or even "Jonth". :p

I'm sure that burden is shared in other ways. A division in labour does not mean one partner is more the 'head' than the other. My husband kills the spiders. I clean up the puke.
Exactly,
This is genuine representation of Women.

The work at home should not be taken as being "less". My wife just went back to work---she would ask me if she could spend money--not because I deemed to be so--because she deemed it to be her duty as a couteous person.

My cared for the house inside--the internal family.

I cared for the external concerns.

Big dog--Dad.

Skinned KNee--Mom

Mean Guy--Dad

Scary Movie--Mom

Bills---Dad made the Money--Mom Managed it.

The family does not function without both--therefore power while one might percieve a superior is truly equal.

Not because she cant do I can, or I cant do what she does--we simply do it better together.

My wife an analogy we like to use:

The old WWF "tag team" (we even will "tag" each other when one needs a break).
YUP! We don't actually tag one another, but it becomes clear when we need help. I think it's interesting...when I'm down, my husband cheers me up. When he's down, I do the same...but even when we're both down, one of us sucks it up, ignores their own misery, and helps the other...then we both get out of the pit. We've settled into routines...I sweep, he mops, he cooks, I clean, or visa versa. If he were to suddenly one day make a unilateral decision about something important, one that I really disagreed with, he knows it would likely mean me walking out on him. And visa versa. We don't push it. We don't need to. We've always been able to work things out, even if it literally takes months.

YUP! We don't actually tag one another, but it becomes clear when we need help.


I actually tagged my wife this morning, before we got up for the day.

And now you've got me thinking about it again. The boys are in school, my daughter soundly napping.

I guess you're not going to understand. Thats ok. You and I would never get along anyway.
You're right. I don't understand. Because even my parents didn't have one person being the head of the family. My mom stayed home, and my dad worked...but that did not make him the boss. Now, my grandparents, that's another story. Then again, the man had more rights back then to leave the woman out in the cold if he displeased her. Not so now. If my man ever got too uppity, I'd be gone. And if I started thinking I called the shots alone, he'd ditch me quick.

No one did that. The point was brought up that the tradition lies in the concept that women were chattel. Which is historically true. No one is saying that it is a current attempt to oppress women. Next strawman please.


I hope you take your own advice, because your quote was nothing more than a rant, spewing forth hatred toward a group you clearly know nothing about, and countering arguments that were not made.
Yes someone did, and if you read back above my post you will see that.

And I do directly HATE the venomous Feminist propaganda that twisted modern Women's psyche into believeing there could be anythign more fulfilling then being a Mother. Tell me what on earth is more important?

Second, Feminists had ZERO to do with Women's sufferage--nothing.

Feminism and Female Liberation are not synonyms---SO yes I do indeed know the subject I speak of thank you very much.

Hahaha you people are funny! Why would they keep hyphenating last names throughout countless generations? If you look at the system that we have in Mexico (I'm guessing in the rest of Latin America too) is pretty cool and straight forward. If a couple gets married the man's name stays the same and the woman's changes only slightly, for example my family (before divorce): My dad's name stayed Efrain Perez Acuna and my mother's turned into Livia Acuna de Perez...see what happened there? Whearas before marriage her name was Livia Acuna Balino (name, dad's surname, mom's surname) When I was born, I took both my mother's (paternal) surname and my father's (paternal) first name. I became Elsa Giraldry Perez Acuna (name, middle name father's surname, mother's surname) After mom remarried, my stepdad adopted me and I changed my name to (don't ask me why, I just loathed my other names) Maricruz Serrato Acuna. Man...I don't know what I'm gonna do when I get married, I hate hyphenating but I ifdon't people think that one of my last names is a middle name...how utterly stupid. It's really not a complicated system though once you foreigners get the hang of it. It's acknowledging both parents and it makes it pretty easy to seek out your family history since its so well recorded.

Sin-that reeks of something you just made up to get me off your back. Only you need to know the answer,though. I already do.:rolleyes:
Actually, I specifically brought up that example because I knew I'd be called on the outcome.

Let me give you two more. My husband came home one day after deciding on his own to buy a car. I was pissed at not being consulted. The car went.

I went out one day and bought tickets to Chile, as a 'surprise' for my husband. He was pissed at not being consulted. The tickets were returned.

It swings both ways. Like me.

I actually tagged my wife this morning, before we got up for the day.

And now you've got me thinking about it again. The boys are in school, my daughter soundly napping.
Well, it's a half hour to nooner time here...I give you the green light!

You're right. I don't understand. Because even my parents didn't have one person being the head of the family. My mom stayed home, and my dad worked...but that did not make him the boss. Now, my grandparents, that's another story. Then again, the man had more rights back then to leave the woman out in the cold if he displeased her. Not so now. If my man ever got too uppity, I'd be gone. And if I started thinking I called the shots alone, he'd ditch me quick.


I dont see it as a right to leave a woman that doesnt conform out in the cold. My wife and I have been together for a while, we know each other really well and did before we were married. Its only important to me that she and I understand.
We also dont have specific roles here. I do whatever I feel needs to be done, as needed. If there is a mess, I clean it up. I change diapers and cook-and clean. I never have said its her job

Yes someone did, and if you read back above my post you will see that.

And I do directly HATE the venomous Feminist propaganda that twisted modern Women's psyche into believeing there could be anythign more fulfilling then being a Mother. Tell me what on earth is more important?Plenty. And you are misrepresenting Feminists. You are making the common mistake of pointing to a few radicals, and claiming they represent the whole.

Second, Feminists had ZERO to do with Women's sufferage--nothing. That's because the term hadn't been invented yet. Nice try.

Feminism and Female Liberation are not synonyms---SO yes I do indeed know the subject I speak of thank you very much.
Then quit pretending that radical feminist=feminists.

I dont see it as a right to leave a woman that doesnt conform out in the cold. My wife and I have been together for a while, we know each other really well and did before we were married. Its only important to me that she and I understand.
We also dont have specific roles here. I do whatever I feel needs to be done, as needed. If there is a mess, I clean it up. I change diapers and cook-and clean. I never have said its her job
So then...how are you the 'head' again?:p

Okay, that's a reasonable solution.
I just foresee ... differences of opinion on a lot of issues with me and my now-gf (possibly fiancee in a couple days? ;) ) because she was raised an only child, and I have a younger sister... so our ideas of raising a family are a little different. It should be interesting...
neither of you know how to raise kids now. its not a matter of opinion, its a matter of learning how to handle kids and how to be consistent with the methods you choose along with the personality of the actual child involved.

so when a big issue comes up, you do what sin and her husband did. you talk about <tv watching> and decide what is best for the kids based on your understanding of your kids and the effect of tv on them.

you cant have one person making the "no tv" decree over the strong objections of the other. it just wont work. both have to agree to whatever compromise they come up with .

:rolleyes:
Actually, I specifically brought up that example because I knew I'd be called on the outcome.

Let me give you two more. My husband came home one day after deciding on his own to buy a car. I was pissed at not being consulted. The car went.

I went out one day and bought tickets to Chile, as a 'surprise' for my husband. He was pissed at not being consulted. The tickets were returned.

It swings both ways. Like me.


Those are both fairly large decisions to be made without discussing with the other. I wouldnt even buy a car without going over finances with my wife. I'm not he-man.
I did buy her tickets to England and Colorado as a surprise though.

Again, unless you think marriage is solely about taking someone's last name, this question is pointless.
I don't care about the names because I don't think i will ever go to city hall..or the Church..or whatever...to sign the marriage contract..(its only papers)

What is the big deal about names...priests...papers...marriage conventions...contracts etc?

Makes it easier to get medical insurance.LOL...
you are one of a kind...when are you going to TG-me the pics?

I don't care about the names because I don't think i will ever go to the Church...or city hall or whatever...and sign the papers...(they are only papers)

What is the big deal about names...priests...papers...marriage conventions...contracts etc?

If you want the ability to consult a doctor about the medical care of your significant other, it helps to be married. If you want medical insurance, it's easier to put your significant other on the policy if you're married.

Sharing (or dividing) property. Beneficiary status.

Those are both fairly large decisions to be made without discussing with the other. I wouldnt even buy a car without going over finances with my wife. I'm not he-man.
I did buy her tickets to England and Colorado as a surprise though.
Surprises are nice...but they need to be rational:). He recently consulted me about a $5000 diamond ring he was thinking of buying me...he said he felt it would be irresponsible to just go ahead and buy it. I'm glad he asked. I hate diamonds, and wouldn't felt like I had to pretend to like it, all the while cursing him for wasting so much money.

Things were not always thus. For the first four years of our relationship, I was very submissive, and he, very dominant in the decision making. We almost broke up because of it. We've worked hard to become equals.

LOL...
you are one of a kind...when are you going to TG-me the pics?
We all keep asking...maybe he's shy now!

If you want the ability to consult a doctor about the medical care of your significant other, it helps to be married. If you want medical insurance, it's easier to put your significant other on the policy if you're married.

Sharing (or dividing) property. Beneficiary status.So marriage cotracts are about money...

And I do directly HATE the venomous Feminist propaganda that twisted modern Women's psyche into believeing there could be anythign more fulfilling then being a Mother. Tell me what on earth is more important?
youve never been a mother have you? child raising is important alright but there are days (weeks, months) where is it the most boring frustrating annoying job on earth.


Second, Feminists had ZERO to do with Women's sufferage--nothing.

Feminism and Female Liberation are not synonyms---SO yes I do indeed know the subject I speak of thank you very much.
another odd contention. are you just playing the "they didnt call themselves feminists" game or do you think that no women fought tirelessly for the right to vote? or are you one of those people who have their own definintion of feminist?

besides the words not being in quite the same realms, what do you think the big difference is between feminists and those who fight for female liberation??

So marriage cotracts are about money...
From the civil end of things, yes.

From my perspective, it's about oathtaking. From one person to another.

I don't know why. Tradition? That's a pretty flimsy reason for someone to change their name, IMO. The ease of saying "That's the Jones family" instead of "That's the Jones-Smith family"? Also seems kind of week to me. That's why I've told my fiancée many times that she doesn't have to take my last name. I never considered taking hers, so it would be unfair of me to expect her to take mine. She's said that she thinks it will be tough at first, but she does want to change her last name to mine. I tell her that I'll support her in whatever choice she makes.

... child raising is important alright but there are days (weeks, months) where is it the most boring frustrating annoying job on earth. Child raising is one of the most important Jobs on earth...

How do you differentiate between the different John Smiths and the differ Paul Johnsons? Or one could try giving their children original names. How do you think we got last names in the first place? They were either to suggest your job or whose son you were (how do you tell which John's son you were) in some cases. However, many of the last names in the US were just randomly picked because we either couldn't spell the last name of an immigrant or they didn't have one. Why stop picking now? Or why not have it reflect something about me? I could be Eric Philosopher. Or Eric Maleextraordinare.

And why not the wife's? Why not both? It's far more unlikely that you will have two children with the same first and last name if the surname contains the names of both parents as in Latin families. Your convention is not my convention.
Confusion still happens, but it is at a manageable level (and some level would occur even if people picked their own names because people coul well pick the same names) without surnames it wouldn't be manageable. You can't ask a newborn baby to choose a surname, so the parents have to, so it comes to the same thing really.

and why not the wife's, it has to be one or the other, might as well be the husbands as the wife.


Ridiculous. It has nothing to do with performance. It's because of convention. We have always watched male atheletes so we continue to do so. Male sports get more of a viewing share and thus more money.
People have always wanted to watch the best in the sports they know and like. Men perform to a higher level than women, why is it wrong that they get more money? If Michelle Wie for example, makes it into a major golfing tournament then people will watch her because she has raised her performance to the level of the stars of the sport.

Child raising is one of the most important Jobs on earth...
But it was stated that nothing is more fulfilling (for a woman) than being a mother. What a load of shit. For many women, motherhood is not a choice, it's an expectation, and the ONLY option. I'm speaking globally here, thanks.

From the civil end of things, yes.
often...that signed and contracted papers of yours...ends in chaotic court battle...with money-hungry lawyers all over the place...

But it was stated that nothing is more fulfilling (for a woman) than being a mother. What a load of shit. For many women, motherhood is not a choice, it's an expectation, and the ONLY option. I'm speaking globally here, thanks.
Being a mother can be very fulfilling, perhaps even the most fulfilling thing for some women, or so I am told. But it is not, and should not be portrayed as, the only means to fulfillment for a woman.

Child raising is one of the most important Jobs on earth...

yes it is but there are very many good ways to do it. it doesnt rest solely on one parent giving up everything else in her life to do it.

But it was stated that nothing is more fulfilling (for a woman) than being a mother. What a load of shit. For many women, motherhood is not a choice, it's an expectation, and the ONLY option.any woman feeling that way should not be a mother...

any woman feeling that way should not be a mother...
They don't always have a choice.

Olara']Being a mother can be very fulfilling, perhaps even the most fulfilling thing for some women, or so I am told. But it is not, and should not be portrayed as, the only means to fulfillment for a woman.
depends on the woman eh?

Olara']Being a mother can be very fulfilling, perhaps even the most fulfilling thing for some women, or so I am told. But it is not, and should not be portrayed as, the only means to fulfillment for a woman.I 100% agree...

Olara']Being a mother can be very fulfilling, perhaps even the most fulfilling thing for some women, or so I am told. But it is not, and should not be portrayed as, the only means to fulfillment for a woman.
And for some women, it's hell. My father's mother had children because her husband expected it...and she was a terrible mother. She was a wonderful teacher however. Guess where she felt most fulfilled.

In any case, that's not the point. Taking the man's last name or not is not some sort of feminazi outcry about being oppressed. In many cultures, it's a total non-issue...no one is asked to change their name.

any woman feeling that way should not be a mother...
Like I said...many women aren't given the bloody choice. And maybe they would BE good mothers if they weren't perpetually pregnant for 16 years (like my great-grandmother), finally dying in child-birth after the fourteenth child.

They don't always have a choice.They should have a choice...We as a society should give them a free choice.

depends on the woman eh?
What a concept.

They should have a choice...We as a society should give them a free choice.
We are not a society. We are a globe filled with many societies, and we will never all agree.

We are not a society. We are a globe filled with many societies, and we will never all agree.inside most western political bodies...AKA countries...

...all it should take is 50% +1

You don't HAVE to anymore, but there is a strong cultural belief in North America that the woman should take her husband's last name. Even if she doesn't, the children rarely take the mother's name. It's thought of as strange...a denial of the father. Well what about the mother?

:snip:


It is a pretty simple answer. Woman couldn't own property themselves not that long ago. The man's name is tied to all the family owns it only makes sense to change her name to his. Also inheretence tended to pass to the first son so it makes sense family names pass through the sons as well. It is pretty impracticle to hyphenate every single name after two generations it would be ridiculously long. So you have to pick one or the other and for the reasons above and the general patriarchal society it is the man's name. I don't see any big deal with it or any modern sexism behind it. It is how it is done if you don't like it fine don't do it not a big deal.

It follows along the lines of why a woman gets automatic rights to her children over the father unless there is a pretty severe situation. Blah blah woman actually birthed the child they are more connected whatever you can look at that as based in sexism as well. Woman take a man's name because of a tradition that doesn't hold as much water as it used to but really who does it hurt? If you have only daughters and are afraid your family name will die out perhaps you should realize you are promoting love ones and a bloodline, names are just labels.

inside most western political bodies...AKA countries...

...all it should take is 50% +1
Doesn't work that way.

By that account, we only need a few more people speaking Chinese...

inside most western political bodies...AKA countries...

...all it should take is 50% +1
There we go:) More specific.

And women in most western countries do now have this choice.

There we go:) More specific.

And women in most western countries do now have this choice.

That leaves out about 3/4 of the rest of the world...

inside most western political bodies...AKA countries...

...all it should take is 50% +1also..let me remind you that..in most of the World (counting China out)..Women are allowed to vote...and are indeed 50%+1...

That leaves out about 3/4 of the rest of the world...
I'm aware of this...but I really hate when people talk about 'society' as though that meant the whole world. "Women have rights! They can vote, and choose to have babies or not"...NO...women in the WEST have these rights. Not so for MOST women. At least now the context OceanDrive was speaking in is clearer.

screw names, we should all get a number. Like a license plate.

Y'know, I was gonna post here and defend the tradition and all. I took my husband's name because that's tradition and I did it as a sign of respect. In my family though, the tradition is to keep your maiden name as a middle name, though, and ditch your old middle name. I didn't do that either, because I like my middle name, but not my old last name. So for me it was really just a "what do I like best" thing.

But I'm a Christian, and I was thinking... the Bible says "a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife" and y'know... I think that implies he should take HER name, not vice versa. Doesn't it? It says NOTHING about a woman leaving her parents, (and their name) but things abou tthe man leaving his. Maybe tradition is backwards.

In return for his taking all of her sh*t for the rest of his life, obviously.

:D

also..let me remind you that..in most of the World (counting China out)..Women are allowed to vote...and are indeed 50%+1...I can almost hear the keyboards frantically working the Search engines :D :D ;) :D

Don't break your Keyboards...resistance is Futile...I am one step ahead of you.

At least a woman in Canada or the US is no longer (usually) referred to as "Mrs. (husband's first name)." It used to be pretty common. How silly...Mrs. James Ross. Weird!Actually, a certain credit card company always attaches a MRS to my name, even though I have written them and told them I am unmarried. Their response was that married women get more upset if they call them Ms or Miss, so they would continue to refer to me as Mrs.

I told them Mrs. D. Drschiwiski was my sister-in-law, and they could cancel my credit card...

Well, just one side of an opinion here, but the taking of another partner's name would seem to imply leaving behind the old family to join the new. At least, that's what happened with my wife. She took my last name on marriage as a final sign of separation from a family that she no longer had any desire to associate with.

Beyond that... it really shouldn't matter to anyone but the two getting married what name anyone chooses to use. There will be occasions when the man changes, occasions when the woman changes, and occasions when neither change. But hey, why not both? Create a new family unit, use a new name? Could work, and for that matter, it wouldn't surprise me if it already has for many others...

Actually, a certain credit card company always attaches a MRS to my name, even though I have written them and told them I am unmarried. Their response was that married women get more upset if they call them Ms or Miss, so they would continue to refer to me as Mrs.

I told them Mrs. D. Drschiwiski was my sister-in-law, and they could cancel my credit card...

That's really weird. I've had people refuse to refer to me as Mrs. When I was unmarried I preferred Miss, now I prefer Mrs. Both ways I had to constantly correct people out of Ms. To me, MS is an abbreviation for Manuscript. I am not a manuscript, don't call me Ms. And yeah, I'd cancel if they insisted on calling me Mrs. when I wasn't married! Geez, morons these days.

Hey now, hyphenation can be okay!

Sure, nobody understands, it won't fit on any forms, it gets mangled by schools and employers all the time, and it prompts confused DMV personel to ask me, "Aren't you a bit young to be married?" But every time somebody asks me about my name, it gives me an opportunity to tell people how cool my parents are!

Well, me and my wife decided against Hyphanation... Mostly because combined my french last name (which is frequently mangled and wrecked by others) with her Polish last name (which is frequently mangled and wrecked by others) would be worse than dealing with only one name which is frequently mangled and wrecked by others.

A bigger issue for us, is why the hell do the average idiots out there seem to need to add letters and sometimes entire sylabels to names like ours...

Forget society at large, the naming thing hits home with friends, family and business relationships.

I got married last year. My wife and I are in our 40's, no kids, no current plans for kids/adoption, so that made our decision less complex. My wife didn't want to take my last name, which made perfect sense to me. Her full name is her identity, which neither of us believed changed just because we got married. So all is well, except....

Friends, family and just about any mailing list have a difficult time with it. Here's some of the feedback we've gotten:

1) (To my wife) What are you, some kind of liberal feminist?
2) (To me) What are you, some kind of liberal feminist?
2) So who wears the pants in this marriage?
3) How do I address your christmas card?
4) You're not really married, are you.
5) What'll you do when you adopt kids? What name will they take? You say you're not planning a family? What are you, some kind of kid-hater?

OK, so the list is paraphrased and embellished, but that's pretty much what it devolves down to usually. We finally ended up saying, "Whatever, just do what you think makes sense," which has yielded some pretty hilarious combinations.

to quote phoebe from friends- 'women have rights, can vote and work, what more do these broads want?'

to quote phoebe from friends- 'women have rights, can vote and work, what more do these broads want?'dude...take it easy.

Well, just one side of an opinion here, but the taking of another partner's name would seem to imply leaving behind the old family to join the new. At least, that's what happened with my wife. She took my last name on marriage as a final sign of separation from a family that she no longer had any desire to associate with.

Yeah, this was an issue with me, too. My dad disowned me when I told him at 23 I was moving out of his house. It didn't matter to him where I was going. I sealed the deal by getting married, and figured that changing my name was... rather appropriate.

Beyond that... it really shouldn't matter to anyone but the two getting married what name anyone chooses to use. There will be occasions when the man changes, occasions when the woman changes, and occasions when neither change. But hey, why not both? Create a new family unit, use a new name? Could work, and for that matter, it wouldn't surprise me if it already has for many others...

I knew a lady who just kept using her maiden name for business purposes, because she married a guy named "Przybylowski". Heh. I also knew a guy who changed his name because it was unpronouncable and unspellable... he made it short and boring, though.

I can almost hear the keyboards frantically working the Search engines :D :D ;) :D

Don't break your Keyboards...resistance is Futile...I am one step ahead of you.

Dude did you just quote yourself on purpose?

Why shouldn't a woman take a man's last name upon marriage? By the time it is over, she will have everything else, including his testicles.

Why shouldn't a woman take a man's last name upon marriage? By the time it is over, she will have everything else, including his testicles.

Interesting. My first wife took my last name, everything else and was going straight for the testicles when I said, "Enough!"

Well, just one side of an opinion here, but the taking of another partner's name would seem to imply leaving behind the old family to join the new...But hey, why not both? Create a new family unit, use a new name? Could work, and for that matter, it wouldn't surprise me if it already has for many others...

Nice one! Been done by hippies, I think, and they seem pretty on the ball... :p

Seriously, good idea, one I was thinking of myself.

It's just tradition.

Well, just one side of an opinion here, but the taking of another partner's name would seem to imply leaving behind the old family to join the new. At least, that's what happened with my wife. She took my last name on marriage as a final sign of separation from a family that she no longer had any desire to associate with.

Beyond that... it really shouldn't matter to anyone but the two getting married what name anyone chooses to use. There will be occasions when the man changes, occasions when the woman changes, and occasions when neither change. But hey, why not both? Create a new family unit, use a new name? Could work, and for that matter, it wouldn't surprise me if it already has for many others...

personally, i felt my name was my name and i saw no reason to change it. for the same reason i see no sense in my husband changing his name either.

It's just tradition.
For some cultures. For others, it is not.

Hmmm, I kept my own name after we got married, mostly because it was too much hassle to change (I'm an EU citizen living on a visa and working on a work permit in the US, changes would have to be made at (a) Passport office, (b) Irish embassy, (c) INS, (d) US embassy, (e) work...and the list goes on)

The 'what will we name our kids' question is on my mind, especially as we're thinking about starting a family soon. I want them to have my name too, but use his until they decide that they want a change, if they want a change, and so legally they already have my name so it's a lot easier. Also, if we break up, chances are, I'll get custody, being their mother, and if the break-up's bitter, I don't want reminders running around under my feet 24-365, so I can change without too much hassle. But I doubt my husband would like that idea, neither of us likes the other's family, but I have better reason not to like his side...

ON THE OTHER HAND:
Someone I know gave her child the surname Gaultier-O'Connor, as he was born before they were married and weren't sure they were going to stay together, but they did, and she's warned me that hyphenation is a bad way to go. I suppose it's entirely up to the couple, and their feelings towards their respective families, history, etc, etc. To each their own..

Have to admit though, I like the idea of giving them a new surname all of their own...but my husband would kill me for suggesting it...

Wherever the TV wound up is where the true power in your household lies.Not necessarily. When my partner and I disagreed over where the computers would go, he won. But then I got to make the spare room my library.

It's all negotiate and consensus. Just because one person's position won out in one situation, it doesn't mean it will the next time. That sort of thing doesn't make either person the head of the household.

If you asked us who was the head, we would probably each indicate ourselves. :D So don't ask.

I knew a lady who just kept using her maiden name for business purposes, because she married a guy named "Przybylowski". Heh. I also knew a guy who changed his name because it was unpronouncable and unspellable... he made it short and boring, though.

Hey now... nothing wrong with 'short and boring' . I've lived that way all my life :D

-snip-

Create a new family unit, use a new name? Could work, and for that matter, it wouldn't surprise me if it already has for many others...

We rolled that idea around for awhile too, but it didn't work for us for the following reasons:

1. Most combinations of our last names sounded funny from a marketing perspective.

2. One combination of our last names turned out to be my wife's last name. Kind of defeats the purpose.

3. Instead of neither of us having to change all of our info (govt., business, social), both of us would have to do that.

4. Would probably bring up the same discussions as in my previous list.

She should if she wants to.:)

When I got married I kept my own last name. I did so for a few reasons, but mostly because I am known and name recognition is important when you do some of the stuff I do.

However, here is maybe a little known fact that some Canadians may or may not know. In Quebec, whether you take your husbands name or not, upon your death you're buried in your given name, not your married name, it's the law. I don't know of any where except Quebec where it is that way. Odd huh.

Give me a fucking break Eut. Wah wah wah.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.:rolleyes:

When I got married I kept my own last name. I did so for a few reasons, but mostly because I am known and name recognition is important when you do some of the stuff I do.

However, here is maybe a little known fact that some Canadians may or may not know. In Quebec, whether you take your husbands name or not, upon your death you're buried in your given name, not your married name, it's the law. I don't know of any where except Quebec where it is that way. Odd huh.

That is a little strange. In Ireland, you're buried under your married name, but with your baptismal name in brackets afterwards, unless you specifically request it not to be put there. But this situation is probably the same everywhere else

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.:rolleyes:
Oh shut it. Where exactly was I 'whining' about anything? Or pretending there was some sort of conspiracy involved?

That's really weird. I've had people refuse to refer to me as Mrs. When I was unmarried I preferred Miss, now I prefer Mrs. Both ways I had to constantly correct people out of Ms. To me, MS is an abbreviation for Manuscript. I am not a manuscript, don't call me Ms. And yeah, I'd cancel if they insisted on calling me Mrs. when I wasn't married! Geez, morons these days.Actually, I would prefer to not have them prepend my name with a title at all - I don't feel that knowing my last name should automatically give someone the right to know my gender and marital status. But almost every company I've ever dealt with has insisted that they MUST use some title, even if I request otherwise.

Oh shut it. Where exactly was I 'whining' about anything? Or pretending there was some sort of conspiracy involved?
Pssst. Sinuhue

Stay calm (http://scv.bu.edu/~aarondf/Webgifs/dontpanic.gif)

Why should you? Because we have the penis, simply enough.

Pssst. Sinuhue

Stay calm (http://scv.bu.edu/~aarondf/Webgifs/dontpanic.gif)
I just hate that people automatically assume I'm complaining about something because I bring it up. Or ranting. Trust me, when I rant, it's clear. CLEAR I SAY!

Why should you? Because we have the penis, simply enough.

And having a flesh tube between the legs means... what exactly?

You mean something similar to comparing the taking of a last name to the oppression of women.

Not exactly. I meant something more like saying, "All Christians hate Muslims." You were generalizing an entire group, each of which sees feminism differently, as if they all believe the most extremist ideas.

Quote in context,

That was in context, considering that your rant had absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand and everything to do with trying to stereotype and attack feminists as if all of us have a problem with taking our husband's name. We only have a problem with some sort of social requirement to do so. Most of us have no problem with being a homemaker, and in fact see it as a noble job. We only have a problem with some sort of social requirement to do so.

Meanwhile, I'll snip the rest of your silly personal attacks, and we can both pretend like your entire participation in this thread hasn't be stereotyping, strawmen, and personal attacks, Ok?

Well, it does seem like you are whining. Sorry (not really, I never seriously apologize) if I misinterpreted you, but your feminist threads do feel a bit like whining. And there isn't a conspiracy theory - mom *does* get more credit than dad.

Well, it does seem like you are whining. Sorry (not really, I never seriously apologize) if I misinterpreted you, but your feminist threads do feel a bit like whining. And there isn't a conspiracy theory - mom *does* get more credit than dad.
How is this a feminist thread, for one? It's a thread about cultural differences. And two...BULLSHIT. Mom gets more credit than dad, wah wah wah. Got some stats to back that anecdotal load up?

How is this a feminist thread, for one? It's a thread about cultural differences. And two...BULLSHIT. Mom gets more credit than dad, wah wah wah. Got some stats to back that anecdotal load up?

And who the fuck are you to tell me what traditions and cultures are wrong? Put the shoe on the other foot for once. Perhaps I have issues with your culture, but I dont go around starting shit and refusing to really allow an open discussion by flying off the handle anytime anyone posts anything you dont agree with.

And who the fuck are you to tell me what traditions and cultures are wrong? Put the shoe on the other foot for once. Perhaps I have issues with your culture, but I dont go around starting shit and refusing to really allow an open discussion by flying off the handle anytime anyone posts anything you dont agree with.
Hahahahahahahaha. Sure. Because again, someone is assuming I made some sort of cultural judgement. Whatever.

Hahahahahahahaha. Sure. Because again, someone is assuming I made some sort of cultural judgement. Whatever.
So, you havent been telling anyone that their culture is wrong?

So, you havent been telling anyone that their culture is wrong?

No, as far as I could tell, she hasn't been.

So, you havent been telling anyone that their culture is wrong?
Go ahead, I'm sure you've got something ready....go ahead and show me where I have. I don't care who takes who's name, but I AM interested in why they make that decision (because everyone does a certain thing, or because of a certain philosophy).

And maybe you can understand...just a little...that I get pissed off when people tell me that I'm doing something I'm not.

And I do directly HATE the venomous Feminist propaganda that twisted modern Women's psyche into believeing there could be anythign more fulfilling then being a Mother. Tell me what on earth is more important?

That all depends. Not all women are good at being mothers. Doing so wouldn't be very fulfilling for them. Why should they then do so?

The entire point here is that everyone should make their own choices. A woman who does not want to be a homemaker shouldn't feel pressured into doing so. A woman who does want to be a homemaker should be able to, and should not be pressured to do otherwise. It is about what is best for individual women, and individual families.

Second, Feminists had ZERO to do with Women's sufferage--nothing.

Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: 'fe-m&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
- fem·i·nist /-nist/ noun or adjective
- fem·i·nis·tic /"fe-m&-'nis-tik/ adjective

Really? So those working for women's suffrage weren't "organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests"?

Feminism and Female Liberation are not synonyms---SO yes I do indeed know the subject I speak of thank you very much.

No, they aren't. Feminists are concerned with gender issues of all types. We are not soley concerned with "liberating" women, but with ensuring that all genders get equal consideration.

No, they aren't. Feminists are concerned with gender issues of all types. We are not soley concerned with "liberating" women, but with ensuring that all genders get equal consideration.
Doesn't it feel like we've repeated this a billion times? I don't think it's sinking in...

dude...take it easy.

what do you mean? i was joking, i must have forgotten to put the ':p ' at the end to make it blatantly obvious:p . plus, i'm not a dude, i'm a woman

Go ahead, I'm sure you've got something ready....go ahead and show me where I have. I don't care who takes who's name, but I AM interested in why they make that decision (because everyone does a certain thing, or because of a certain philosophy).

And maybe you can understand...just a little...that I get pissed off when people tell me that I'm doing something I'm not.


So you havent been telling Carnivorous that the way he and his family decide to interact was wrong?

I have no problems with people who honestly wish to find out about different cultures. However, I find it hard to believe that such is the case when you attack every person who posts a different viewpoint than yours...

Perhaps you can understand that all I'm asking for is for people to open their minds to the possibility that other people's views are just as valid as anyone's.

So you havent been telling Carnivorous that the way he and his family decide to interact was wrong? No, I haven't. If you read it that way, you've got an interesting slant on things.

I have no problems with people who honestly wish to find out about different cultures. However, I find it hard to believe that such is the case when you attack every person who posts a different viewpoint than yours... I think you're getting a bit paranoid. I've yet to see what attacks you're referring to...other than my comment to Eut (who made some baseless and off-topic comments), and New Genoa (who accused me of complaining about someone I am clearly not complaining about).

Perhaps you can understand that all I'm asking for is for people to open their minds to the possibility that other people's views are just as valid as anyone's.And I'd like you to understand that I am simply pissed that you, and two other posters, have decided to completely misrepresent my posts as 'attacks' 'whining' or 'feminazi rants'. So feel free all, to express your points of view, but never for a second think that your particular MISREPRESENTATION of MY POSTS are as valid as what I actually mean.

So you havent been telling Carnivorous that the way he and his family decide to interact was wrong?



That was the general impression I was getting. I'm pretty traditional in many aspects of life/lifestyle. I see tradition often questioned and challenged in here as if it were wrong.
My family flourishes under the system we have. Everyone is respected and has their own identity. I'm not some oppressive, overbearing loudmouth from the 50s, looking for the missus to have a drink in her hand and a bow in her hair when I get home.

That was the general impression I was getting. I'm pretty traditional in many aspects of life/lifestyle. I see tradition often questioned and challenged in here as if it were wrong.
My family flourishes under the system we have. Everyone is respected and has their own identity. I'm not some oppressive, overbearing loudmouth from the 50s, looking for the missus to have a drink in her hand and a bow in her hair when I get home. My questioning of you, Carn, has more to do with the fact that your family sounds a heck of lot more like mine, than a family comprised of a single 'head', and assorted other members. If you see that as attacking your particular family unit, I apologise TO YOU.

My questioning of you, Carn, has more to do with the fact that your family sounds a heck of lot more like mine, that a family comprised of a single 'head', and assorted other members. If you see that as attacking your particular family unit, I apologise TO YOU.

ROFL

All I was saying is that there was no need to be so offensively minded. People are not always out to disprove you or argue your beliefs...

(just for the record, I'm not attacking your beliefs...just asking for a true back and forth discussion of the relevant topic where everyone is able to post their opinions without being attacked for doing so)

ROFL

All I was saying is that there was no need to be so offensively minded. People are not always out to disprove you or argue your beliefs...

(just for the record, I'm not attacking your beliefs...just asking for a true back and forth discussion of the relevant topic where everyone is able to post their opinions without being attacked for doing so) Well, I haven't been attacking everyone, now have I.

Bah. Forget it.

*ahem* uh-huh. Change of pace. Yep. *nods*
Take your implications and roll them into a big ball and stuff 'em! :p

Well, I haven't been attacking everyone, now have I.

Bah. Forget it.

I didnt say you were...just that you were indeed attacking people and there's no need for it.

My questioning of you, Carn, has more to do with the fact that your family sounds a heck of lot more like mine, that a family comprised of a single 'head', and assorted other members. If you see that as attacking your particular family unit, I apologise TO YOU.

Oh- you were saying you were both in charge and questioning how I'm the one in charge.

It doesnt matter. I'm in charge because ultimately, I can drag you by the hair with one hand, my wife in the other, into my sanctum and bang you both senseless. And then send you both to each make me a sandwich, because I can get really hungry afterwards, if I'm stil awake.

Oh- you were saying you were both in charge and questioning how I'm the one in charge.

It doesnt matter. I'm in charge because ultimately, I can drag you by the hair with one hand, my wife in the other, into my sanctum and bang you both senseless. And then send you both to each make me a sandwich, because I can get really hungry afterwards, if I'm stil awake.

ROFL

Oh- you were saying you were both in charge and questioning how I'm the one in charge.

It doesnt matter. I'm in charge because ultimately, I can drag you by the hair with one hand, my wife in the other, into my sanctum and bang you both senseless. And then send you both to each make me a sandwich, because I can get really hungry afterwards, if I'm stil awake.
Well, if that's the bloody criteria, I guess my husband's the boss:)

And I like him to be. At least during sex.

I didnt say you were...just that you were indeed attacking people and there's no need for it.
And I'm saying there was a need for the people I was INTENTIONALLY attacking. Because they were misrepresenting my posts.

Edit: mother

Edit edit: Oh, and yeah...the quote below by Carn...guess what, despite the fact he was telling me my family structure was wrong, I didn't see that as a bloody attack, I saw it as a difference of opinions.

No-it sounds like there is really only one head in your family.

The buck has to ultimately stop somewhere, Sin. A family isnt a democracy-its a dictatorship.
I take absolute responsibilty for my family's decisions. I do take advice and do defer on certain things, but ultimately, its me.
Good for you! [ applauds ]

And I'm saying there was a need for the people I was INTENTIONALLY attacking. Because they were misrepresenting my posts.

Edit: mother

And I was simply pointing out that you were attacking others. You then over-reacted to my post and, well, here we are.

In our case, we work more like a military junta. Both of us 'head' the family, and the children are our minions.
"Minions!" LOL! :D