NationStates Jolt Archive

"One law for the lion and the lamb is tyranny."

Should I be penalized for some idiot asshole of a parent who can't find his frakkin' ass with both hands, even though I raised my children to be trusting, responsible, compassionate people? The only answer I can even envision is "Hell NO!"

Any law which tells me that I cannot know when my child has a medical problem, even if that "problem" is an unwanted pregnancy, is wrong. Period!

You've got it ass-backwards.

If you've raised your child as you claim, then she would inform you before having an abortion.

Forcing her to tell you only becomes an isssue when their is an issue with your parenting.

If the fetus does not have a nervous system at the time of the abortion, how can it feel pain? By showing you when the majority of abortions take place, they are answering your question, albeit obliquely.
"Obliquely" to the point of vanishment. :rolleyes:

It's an entirely different ball game with kids, though. Parental consent is required for a multitude of things, medical procedures included. The right to have an abortion should be allowed based on the decision of an adult, not a child. People have a right to privacy, but parents have a right to oversee the privacy of their kids in cases such as abortion.

You are begging the question. Why?

You've got it ass-backwards.

If you've raised your child as you claim, then she would inform you before having an abortion.

Forcing her to tell you only becomes an isssue when their is an issue with your parenting.
Not necessarily. If you have children, you know as well as I do that they will often do things without thinking, or avoid doing things that are unpleasant or embarrassing. One of my daughters, in particular, would have virtually died of embarrassment if she had to tell me or her mother that she was pregnant. Yet, she would have known that we wouldn't have criticised or expressed disapproval after the fact, something which would have been useless.

If the fetus does not have a nervous system at the time of the abortion, how can it feel pain? By showing you when the majority of abortions take place, they are answering your question, albeit obliquely.
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."

I can't count the number of times I hid something from my parents thinking they would be furious with me only to find out I was wrong. It's not uncommon for children to think their parents are going to react unreasonably, whether or not that's the actual case.

You've got it ass-backwards.

If you've raised your child as you claim, then she would inform you before having an abortion.

Forcing her to tell you only becomes an isssue when their is an issue with your parenting.

Actually, forcing a child to tell her parents is not the issue in this case. The teenage mothers under this law are under no obligation to inform their parents. As the FOX news article states, "Under the law, parents or guardians must be notified either in person or by certified mail."

The way I'm reading it, this places the responsibility for notification on either the health care facility or the government.

Personally, I think it would be better than having a teenage mother confront her parents with such sensitive information. Being informed in person would be best because a health care professional could present the information in a calm and tactful way as well as answer any questions. Even a certified letter is better because it may give an irate father a chance to calm down before his daughter returns home.

Actually, forcing a child to tell her parents is not the issue in this case. The teenage mothers under this law are under no obligation to inform their parents. As the FOX news article states, "Under the law, parents or guardians must be notified either in person or by certified mail."

The way I'm reading it, this places the responsibility for notification on either the health care facility or the government.

Personally, I think it would be better than having a teenage mother confront her parents with such sensitive information. Being informed in person would be best because a health care professional could present the information in a calm and tactful way as well as answer any questions. Even a certified letter is better because it may give an irate father a chance to calm down before his daughter returns home.
Good point.

I would calm down, and THEN go shoot the sorry, worthless son-of-a-bitch who knocked my daughter up! Mwahahaha! :D

You make some good points. But (dont take this as a death threat) what if you were killed before birth? You had the chance to become anything you want, and accomplish great things. But that chance was taken away from you by someone else you had no say in this stripping of opportunity. Think of some great people in history who were born into a poor family. Imagine if their mothers commited abortion. Think of all the great things they accomplished for society had never happened because of an abortion. Think of the great leaders we could have right now or in the future, but we dont because of abortion.
Arguement from potential. What if that kid turns out to be the next mass murder? That line of reasoning leaves the door open for lots of things and is a bad tactic to use in this debate.

Good point.

I would calm down, and THEN go shoot the sorry, worthless son-of-a-bitch who knocked my daughter up! Mwahahaha! :D

This brings to mind an idea for t-shirts that I had a while ago. Made in every size from infant to adult: My Daddy has a shotgun with your name on it.

I think that an abortion is a doctor`s proffesional secret and an adolescent old enough to have sex..is also old enought to know if telling his parents is necessary or not. Some parents don`t understan certain things like....the fact that with a new generation come new rules that must be followed py the kidds. We have social lives...we can`t be what our parents want us to be...they want us to be right were they were wrong..but that whould mean to live isolated from the world

Good point.

I would calm down, and THEN go shoot the sorry, worthless son-of-a-bitch who knocked my daughter up! Mwahahaha! :D

What if it was your daughter who was the one who started the sexual intercourse? Would you still go shoot that poor kid or would you shoot your daughter?

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that debating whether or not abortion is murder should be null and void in this thread? Fetus "rights" aside, the question is about parental notification. I don't view arguments of parents being notified on the grounds that their daughter is terminating a life as a legitimate reason personally.
I'm going to take this as a hint that I can just jump in at this point, without reading all the rest of the thread (I'm still a bit woozy from the "What's Your Logic" abortion mega-thread and don't feel like reading all that crap again). So if anyone's already made this point, I apologize for repeating it:

I think parental notification should be encouraged but not mandatory.

Minors are usually not considered capable of giving informed consent to medical procedures, for the same reason they can't sign binding contracts -- they're too young and inexperienced. So, some adult should be involved in the decision, and ideally it should be the parent(s).

But obviously, in cases of parental abuse, the parents should not be involved. Maybe the parent has made the child pregnant through sexual abuse, or maybe the parent is likely to physically abuse the child as punishment for getting pregnant. In such cases, it would be wrong to require doctors to inform the parents. After all, the child is the patient, and the doctor's duty is to the patient, and only the patient. Not the patient's parents.

If a doctor suspects or actually knows that the child is in danger from her parents, then the doctor should seek the help of a psychologist or children's services counselor to help the child make an abortion decision. The doctor should also report abuse to the police to make sure abusive parents will not be allowed to interfere with the child's decision process.

This applies only to legal minors. Once the child reaches the legal age of consent, the parents don't have a damned thing to say about anything she does, even if she might still be considered a "kid" socially.

What if it was your daughter who was the one who started the sexual intercourse? Would you still go shoot that poor kid or would you shoot your daughter?

Here's my idea as to what Eutrusca's response might be:

http://tmsyn.wc.ask.com/r?t=an&s=dw&uid=242d6daf842d6daf8&sid=342d6daf842d6daf8&qid=71915087C57F0340A1447A1B525BD3B2&io=1&sv=z6f537248&o=0&ask=dating+officers+daughter+joke&uip=42d6daf8&en=te&eo=-100&pt=Officer.com+Police+%26amp%3b%23038%3b+Law+Enforcement+Forums+-+10+Simple+Rules+for...&ac=9&qs=121&pg=1&ep=1&te_par=128&te_id=&u=http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-8484.html

Edit: See in particular rule four.

if someone has become pregnant (in cases excluding rape and such) then they have obviously made the decision to be an adult and have sex. adults are required to make decisions on their own- without the influence of their parents. the parents are not the ones that would have to raise the child and live with the decision, the girl (and the boy who knocked her up) would have to. so wouldn't you want to be able to make a choice that will affect your life greatly, on your own? sure its sometimes better for the girl to discuss it with her parents but it all comes down to something SHE lives with. not them. so maybe they shouldn't be involved at all.

Here's my idea as to what Eutrusca's response might be:

http://tmsyn.wc.ask.com/r?t=an&s=dw&uid=242d6daf842d6daf8&sid=342d6daf842d6daf8&qid=71915087C57F0340A1447A1B525BD3B2&io=1&sv=z6f537248&o=0&ask=dating+officers+daughter+joke&uip=42d6daf8&en=te&eo=-100&pt=Officer.com+Police+%26amp%3b%23038%3b+Law+Enforcement+Forums+-+10+Simple+Rules+for...&ac=9&qs=121&pg=1&ep=1&te_par=128&te_id=&u=http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-8484.html

Edit: See in particular rule four.

lmao

When it comes to teenage pregnancies parents of usually the girls do have to look after the kids in many situations. A parent is responsible for a child until they turn into adults. They therefore need to be aware of and look after their child. It theri kid is getting pregnant it doesn't look like they are doing a very good job but it is still their responsibility.

This brings to mind an idea for t-shirts that I had a while ago. Made in every size from infant to adult: My Daddy has a shotgun with your name on it.
Hehehe! I want two for my grandaughters! :D

if someone has become pregnant (in cases excluding rape and such) then they have obviously made the decision to be an adult and have sex. adults are required to make decisions on their own- without the influence of their parents. the parents are not the ones that would have to raise the child and live with the decision, the girl (and the boy who knocked her up) would have to. so wouldn't you want to be able to make a choice that will affect your life greatly, on your own? sure its sometimes better for the girl to discuss it with her parents but it all comes down to something SHE lives with. not them. so maybe they shouldn't be involved at all.

Do you realize how many parents do indeed end up being the ones entirely responsible for raising their daughter's children? Not to mention teenage boys aren't really great at stepping up to the plate in general. Also take into consideration the financial responsibilities involved in the raising of a child. Younger teens are often incapable of providing for their child often due to strict child labor laws. Not including the asshole parents who punish their daughter for getting pregnant in the first place, who do you think ends up feeding and clothing the child?

What if it was your daughter who was the one who started the sexual intercourse? Would you still go shoot that poor kid or would you shoot your daughter?
Hmm. Lemmie think 'bout dis. Yeah, I would. :D

[ hopes you're not taking this BS seriously! ] ;)

Hehehe! I want two for my grandaughters! :D

That could be arranged and also gives me the idea to add "My Grandpa has a shotgun..." to the line! I really should get off my ass and make those before somebody else beats me to it.

It theri kid is getting pregnant it doesn't look like they are doing a very good job but it is still their responsibility.

People need to stop saying stuff like that. That's just stupid. You could be a great parent and all of that, but that doesn't mean your kid might not make bad decisions. If your kid is getting pregnant as a teenager that doesn't mean you were a bad parent.

Here's my idea as to what Eutrusca's response might be:

http://tmsyn.wc.ask.com/r?t=an&s=dw&uid=242d6daf842d6daf8&sid=342d6daf842d6daf8&qid=71915087C57F0340A1447A1B525BD3B2&io=1&sv=z6f537248&o=0&ask=dating+officers+daughter+joke&uip=42d6daf8&en=te&eo=-100&pt=Officer.com+Police+%26amp%3b%23038%3b+Law+Enforcement+Forums+-+10+Simple+Rules+for...&ac=9&qs=121&pg=1&ep=1&te_par=128&te_id=&u=http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-8484.html

Edit: See in particular rule four.
ROFLMFAO!!!! Good one!

And I LOVE "rule number four!" :D

That could be arranged and also gives me the idea to add "My Grandpa has a shotgun..." to the line! I really should get off my ass and make those before somebody else beats me to it.
Go for it! I'll buy some!

You might want to add some with Uncle, brother, etc. as well! :D

How long has it been since their abortion?

I had an abortion more that 20 years ago, which I did not tell my parents about. Whilst I regret the circumstance that led to an abortion being necessary, I do not, and have never, regretted the abortion itself. Feelings of happiness and relief were uppermost after the operation, and remain so.

More relevant to this debate: I did not tell my parents because they are strict catholics who would have evicted and ostracized me for premarital sex, and because they were already overburdened coping with my brother who suffers from schizophrenia. He has been hospitalised a number of times over the years and requires their full and constant care.

In what way would either a consent or notification requirement have benefited any of us?

ROFLMFAO!!!! Good one!

And I LOVE "rule number four!" :D

I thought you might. ;)

The first time I read this I almost died laughing. It reminded me of my father. He wasn't military, rather an ex undercover cop. He could pull up a background check on one of my boyfriends quicker than I could blink.

I thought you might. ;)

The first time I read this I almost died laughing. It reminded me of my father. He wasn't military, rather an ex undercover cop. He could pull up a background check on one of my boyfriends quicker than I could blink.
LMAO!!! Good for him ... and for you as well.

I've actually done the same thing, although via friends since I didn't have access. I gave my number two daughter a copy of her prospective husband's three-page rapsheet. Wish I could say it dissuaded her. Sigh. She married him anyway, had a baby, he wound up on cocaine and alcohol one night and threatened to shoot both her and the baby, she came back home with the baby. How's that for proof that a good home life is no guarantee of good sense? :(

*snip*

In what way would either a consent or notification requirement have benefited any of us?


Ask them, then tell us.

I had an abortion more that 20 years ago, which I did not tell my parents about. Whilst I regret the circumstance that led to an abortion being necessary, I do not, and have never, regretted the abortion itself. Feelings of happiness and relief were uppermost after the operation, and remain so.

More relevant to this debate: I did not tell my parents because they are strict catholics who would have evicted and ostracized me for premarital sex, and because they were already overburdened coping with my brother who suffers from schizophrenia. He has been hospitalised a number of times over the years and requires their full and constant care.

In what way would either a consent or notification requirement have benefited any of us?
My point exactly. Is there a chance your parents may have reacted differently? Yes, a slight one. But you knew them and presumably had reason to believe it would have gone badly -- and didn't want a child at that time, anyway! Proper decision all 'round.

I remember when I had my abortion, also about 20 years ago. When I made my decision, the doctor, who was also my mother's and grandmother's doctor, asked me, "Does your mother know about this?" I said, "First, yes, she does. Second, I'm 26, so it's none of her business anyway." He quickly checked my file and fell over himself apologizing.

The point is, it's up to doctors to work this out with their patients. If the girl really feels she can't tell her parents, and if she is under-age, then the doctor should bring in a professional counselor.

And if she's not under-age, then the doctor should just deal with her and no one else.

My point is that you said that coersion implies a lack of trust, if a kid doesn't trust her parents, she may think that they will try to coerce her into carrying the pregnancy to term. She may also believe that they will kick her out if she doesn't trust them or in some way hold her decision against her later on. If a kid trusts her parents, she will tell them what's going on so they can support her, if the kid doesn't trust her parents, then she shouldn't have to tell them.

You can play "What if" all day long but it does nothing to resolve the issue. Fact, the parents are legally responsible for their child until she is 18 unless a court emancipates her. Fact, the parents must be notified and/or give consent for any medical procedure performed on their child. Fact, an abortion is a medical procedure. Conclusion; unless the child is emancipated the parents have a legal right to be notified and/or give consent for an abortion for their child.

Ask them, then tell us.

lol, hardly possible without negating my original decision and causing unwarrented stress to my parents.

Inline with the original poster, I am asking you to think about it, and then to form opinions.

She's better off without a home or the ability to provide for herself? She's better off not being able to go to school? How exactly is she better off?

Most children who have unfit parents are placed with relatives or in foster care. Most of them are better off than they would be if left with the unfit parent. However, until the parent is accused/proven to be unfit they have the legal responsibility for the child and the legal right to be notified or give consent for any medical procedure.

I remind you, the discussion is about the parents being notified if their daughter is going to have an abortion.

The point is, it's up to doctors to work this out with their patients. If the girl really feels she can't tell her parents, and if she is under-age, then the doctor should bring in a professional counselor.

And if she's not under-age, then the doctor should just deal with her and no one else.

Absolutely agreed. I'm not sure where you are? I am in the UK and I had to speak to a cousellor before the op could go ahead - that was good, because it made me enunciate my feelings, which in turn made me more sure than ever that I was making the right decision.

You can play "What if" all day long but it does nothing to resolve the issue. Fact, the parents are legally responsible for their child until she is 18 unless a court emancipates her. Fact, the parents must be notified and/or give consent for any medical procedure performed on their child. Fact, an abortion is a medical procedure. Conclusion; unless the child is emancipated the parents have a legal right to be notified and/or give consent for an abortion for their child.

And this is to the point why there should be no debate on this topic. Parents have legal accountability and responsibility towards their children until they turn 18 years of age and then in some cases beyond that. Under 18, they are unable to enter into contracts or have a medical procedure performed w/o parental notification and consent. How is abortion any different?

lol, hardly possible without negating my original decision and causing unwarrented stress to my parents.

Inline with the original poster, I am asking you to think about it, and then to form opinions.

It's been twenty years, and you still can't tell your parents what you were doing as a teenager?

Hmmmm, interesting.

It's been twenty years, and you still can't tell your parents what you were doing as a teenager?

Hmmmm, interesting.

Ahh thank you Dr. Freud for joining in this converstation. Do you have anything to add or are you just going to keep analyzing the subjects?:rolleyes:

It's been twenty years, and you still can't tell your parents what you were doing as a teenager?

Hmmmm, interesting.

why would I? it's 20 years ago, and not relevant to much outside this debate, i.e. the poster who asked about the time periods involved in not regretting a decision.

but, suppose can't - how does that help an argument for the enforced notification of parents?

And this is to the point why there should be no debate on this topic. Parents have legal accountability and responsibility towards their children until they turn 18 years of age and then in some cases beyond that. Under 18, they are unable to enter into contracts or have a medical procedure performed w/o parental notification and consent. How is abortion any different?
It's sounding like there is no debate left as far as parental notification goes. Even in the original articles, it sounded like the only objections to parental notification were those saying that it was one step on the slippery slope leading to making abortion illegal, which, as much of a pro-choice advocate as I am, sounds too far-fetched.

The only real sticking point left is do parents have a free and clear right to deny their child an abortion? This could probably be taken up in another thread to avoid cluttering this one.

Forcing her to tell you only becomes an isssue when their is an issue with your parenting.

No, not necessarily. A child raised by even good parents may be too ashamed to tell them. There is no doubt in my mind there are things you never told your parents and that does not mean they were not good parents. They probably were very good parents but there are things you did that you did not want them to know about. Right?

The only real sticking point left is do parents have a free and clear right to deny their child an abortion? This could probably be taken up in another thread to avoid cluttering this one.
I think this is the big issue I have with notification. The response from the parent can be any number of things from supportive to denying the kid the ability to do so or throwing the kid out if they have the procedure. I'm wary of anything that can put children in a position such as that.

Why is everyone so worried about the girl being thrown out of her parents' house? If she is old enough to have sex, she is old enough to have to take care of herself. Are we arguing that children should be allowed to have sex (and the resulting abortions) freely with no responsiblity attached?

The exception to this is, of course, if the sex wasn't voluntary - but we already have laws governing that. Specially if it's the father, wouldn't she be BETTER off being out of his house, not just having an abortion and hiding it away? She not only needs to tell him, she needs to tell the police, and have the aborted baby tested for paternity - i.e. PROOF to get that scumbag thrown in jail for raping his own daughter.

All that aside....

To me, this whole thing is ultimately about responsibility. Who has it? Is the daughter responsible for herself? Then she can have sex, and abortions without consulting her parents. She can also feed, clothe and house herself if they no longer wish to because of that. Are the parents responsible for her? Then they need to be informed of her abortion and consent to it like any other thing. They also need to take care of her in the rest of the ways she needs.

But you can't have it both ways. Either she is responsible, or she isn't. Either they are, or they aren't. You can't just say they have to provide for her, but have no right to say what she does with her body, or her children's bodies, or whatever.

Is she, or is she not responsible for herself?

We'll I'm pro-life. But I'll try to put that aside for a moment.

If you are going to have abortion legal shouldn't it be treated like any other medical procedure. If we don't think a child should be given an asprin without parental consent then we shouldn't allow an abortion. Now if we allow abortion without parental notification we should allow all similarly dangerous/invasive procedures without parental consent.

How is abortion different then any other medical procedure that somehow merits giving a girl more right to her body then she is normally given. Hey, unless I'm mistaken can't parents deny medical treatment to a dieing daughter if its against their religion. Even if the young daughter wants to be saved? I'm not sure of the actual law here, but thats my impression of it. Basically under our current legal system an underage girl has only minimal rights to her own body. If she's underage her consent to sex isn't even considered valid. Allowing abortion without consent is a double standard. And certainly shouldn't be allowed without parental notification.

Now if you want to overhall all these laws and allow children more rights to their bodies so be it. I'm not actually sure how I would feel about that, but at least it would be consistent. But frankly these laws are here becasue before a certain age we trust the parents to make better decisions then their daughter. Yeah thats not allways the case, but in general giving the parents control over their children is probably better then giving the children complete soverenty. A 15 or 16 year often doesn't make the best decisions.

Oh and the argument that parents might beet her if they find out is bogus. Not because it doesn't happen, but some parents need little excuse to decide to abuse their children. That doesn't mean that schools don't still send home report cards for the parents to read (hey the parents might beat the children better not do this). Police call the parents if they catch the child doing something illegal. They don't avoid it because the parents may beet the child. Lets face it. We have to trust the parents aren't abusive, but look for signs of abuse in case they are. If we know/strongly suspect the parents are abusive we shouldn't even send the child back home, let alone tell them about the abortion. Instead we should take away their custody (at least temporarly until it can be investigated further).

Here's my idea as to what Eutrusca's response might be:

http://tmsyn.wc.ask.com/r?t=an&s=dw&uid=242d6daf842d6daf8&sid=342d6daf842d6daf8&qid=71915087C57F0340A1447A1B525BD3B2&io=1&sv=z6f537248&o=0&ask=dating+officers+daughter+joke&uip=42d6daf8&en=te&eo=-100&pt=Officer.com+Police+%26amp%3b%23038%3b+Law+Enforcement+Forums+-+10+Simple+Rules+for...&ac=9&qs=121&pg=1&ep=1&te_par=128&te_id=&u=http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-8484.html

Edit: See in particular rule four.

I was not a Marine but I did retire from the Air Force. I never had a daughter; I was blessed with two sons.

However, if I had a daughter those would be my rules also. :D

if someone has become pregnant (in cases excluding rape and such) then they have obviously made the decision to be an adult and have sex.

You do not have to be an adult to have sex. You do not have to be an adult to make a decision to have sex.

How is abortion different then any other medical procedure that somehow merits giving a girl more right to her body then she is normally given. Hey, unless I'm mistaken can't parents deny medical treatment to a dieing daughter if its against their religion. Even if the young daughter wants to be saved? I'm not sure of the actual law here, but thats my impression of it. Basically under our current legal system an underage girl has only minimal rights to her own body. If she's underage her consent to sex isn't even considered valid. Allowing abortion without consent is a double standard. And certainly shouldn't be allowed without parental notification.
Abortion is different from other procedures due to the social stigmas attached to it. You don't see people picketing outside a hospital yelling gluttons at people getting a gastric bypass done do you? Its a complicated issue really that has moral and social implications.

Um, no. Why would the parents be notified? Its not their baby being aborted.

Um, no. Why would the parents be notified? Its not their baby being aborted.

Maybe because they are responsible for their child and should know what's going on in their life?

I think this is the big issue I have with notification. The response from the parent can be any number of things from supportive to denying the kid the ability to do so or throwing the kid out if they have the procedure. I'm wary of anything that can put children in a position such as that.
Such issues can be addressed under existing child neglect laws.

"Neglect is frequently defined in terms of deprivation of adequate food, clothing, shelter, or medical care. Several States distinguish between failure to provide based on the financial inability to do so and the failure to provide for no apparent financial reason. The latter constitutes neglect." Refrence (http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/general/legal/statutes/define.cfm)

Parents may feel that they have a right to throw their daughter out of the house for coming home pregnant, but they don't.

The question is wether or not this is going to turn into another Parker Jensen (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1,1249,510052454,00.html) issue, where denying an abortion is seen as the same as denying chemotherapy.

Absolutely agreed. I'm not sure where you are? I am in the UK and I had to speak to a cousellor before the op could go ahead - that was good, because it made me enunciate my feelings, which in turn made me more sure than ever that I was making the right decision.
I'm in the US where it varies a bit from state to state.

And, of course, where a large number of people have got a vicious bug up their asses about this issue.

That says little or nothing about the fetus having any sensations of pain, which is what I was asking about.
Well, if you know anything about fetal development, you know it doesn't have a central nervous system at that point. It can't feel pain without a central nervous system.

Jeeze. Calm down before you break something! [ points at the word "might." ]

Having a hissy fit accomplishes little if anything. :p
I didn't have a hissy fit. I asked how a teenager is better off being thrown out of the house.

I'm going to take this as a hint that I can just jump in at this point, without reading all the rest of the thread (I'm still a bit woozy from the "What's Your Logic" abortion mega-thread and don't feel like reading all that crap again). So if anyone's already made this point, I apologize for repeating it:

I think parental notification should be encouraged but not mandatory.

Minors are usually not considered capable of giving informed consent to medical procedures, for the same reason they can't sign binding contracts -- they're too young and inexperienced. So, some adult should be involved in the decision, and ideally it should be the parent(s).

But obviously, in cases of parental abuse, the parents should not be involved. Maybe the parent has made the child pregnant through sexual abuse, or maybe the parent is likely to physically abuse the child as punishment for getting pregnant. In such cases, it would be wrong to require doctors to inform the parents. After all, the child is the patient, and the doctor's duty is to the patient, and only the patient. Not the patient's parents.

If a doctor suspects or actually knows that the child is in danger from her parents, then the doctor should seek the help of a psychologist or children's services counselor to help the child make an abortion decision. The doctor should also report abuse to the police to make sure abusive parents will not be allowed to interfere with the child's decision process.

This applies only to legal minors. Once the child reaches the legal age of consent, the parents don't have a damned thing to say about anything she does, even if she might still be considered a "kid" socially.
i agree. all minors should be encouraged to talk to their parents first. they should be offered support in doing so. things like going with the girl to talk to her parents or having them come to the doctors office.

most girls are terrified of the thought of telling their parents. most parents will end up being supportive of whatever the girl wants to do. few will beat their child or kick her out of the house

but for those girls who think this will happen and are adamantly opposed to telling their parents, that should be their choice. the state should accept that if she can choose abortion, she can also choose who to tell.

You make some good points. But (dont take this as a death threat) what if you were killed before birth?
That wouldn't have happened. I was a planned pregnancy.

You had the chance to become anything you want, and accomplish great things. But that chance was taken away from you by someone else you had no say in this stripping of opportunity.
And I wouldn't have demanded that my mother be prevented from accomplishing great things by having me. Is the embryo's potential the only potential that matters to you? What about the potential future of the woman?

Think of some great people in history who were born into a poor family. Imagine if their mothers commited abortion. Think of all the great things they accomplished for society had never happened because of an abortion. Think of the great leaders we could have right now or in the future, but we dont because of abortion.
You know, Hitler's mother almost had an abortion, but the doctor talked her out of it. This argument works both ways, imagine how many people would be alive if Hitler's mother had that abortion...

And the argument of they "dont feel a thing" is irrelevent. That is the equivilant of killing someone by shooting them in the head, right in the temple, while they were sleeping. Odds are, they wouldnt feel it. But is that justified? You would still be ending a life even if they dont feel anything.
Well, someone being shot in the head while sleeping would feel about the same as someone being shot in the head while awake. I'm not sure if they have time to process the information before they die, but either way it's the same. The embryo lacks the nerve cells to accomplish this.
Furthermore, an embryo is not the same as a human being.

We'll I'm pro-life. But I'll try to put that aside for a moment.

If you are going to have abortion legal shouldn't it be treated like any other medical procedure. If we don't think a child should be given an asprin without parental consent then we shouldn't allow an abortion. Now if we allow abortion without parental notification we should allow all similarly dangerous/invasive procedures without parental consent.

How is abortion different then any other medical procedure that somehow merits giving a girl more right to her body then she is normally given. Hey, unless I'm mistaken can't parents deny medical treatment to a dieing daughter if its against their religion. Even if the young daughter wants to be saved? I'm not sure of the actual law here, but thats my impression of it. Basically under our current legal system an underage girl has only minimal rights to her own body. If she's underage her consent to sex isn't even considered valid. Allowing abortion without consent is a double standard. And certainly shouldn't be allowed without parental notification.

Now if you want to overhall all these laws and allow children more rights to their bodies so be it. I'm not actually sure how I would feel about that, but at least it would be consistent. But frankly these laws are here becasue before a certain age we trust the parents to make better decisions then their daughter. Yeah thats not allways the case, but in general giving the parents control over their children is probably better then giving the children complete soverenty. A 15 or 16 year often doesn't make the best decisions.

Oh and the argument that parents might beet her if they find out is bogus. Not because it doesn't happen, but some parents need little excuse to decide to abuse their children. That doesn't mean that schools don't still send home report cards for the parents to read (hey the parents might beat the children better not do this). Police call the parents if they catch the child doing something illegal. They don't avoid it because the parents may beet the child. Lets face it. We have to trust the parents aren't abusive, but look for signs of abuse in case they are. If we know/strongly suspect the parents are abusive we shouldn't even send the child back home, let alone tell them about the abortion. Instead we should take away their custody (at least temporarly until it can be investigated further).
the difference is that an abortion has to be done NOW. its not something that can wait until the minor becomes an adult. the court cases that would be involved to remove the child from her parents care or to have a judge mandate that the abortion go forward means a much later abortion if one is then legally available at all due to the extended pregnancy.

if your kid wants breast implants and you disagree, she can just as well get them at 18. if she wants to abort her unplanned pregnancy, she has to do it NOW.

its her body and its an immediate problem. do we make her "slave" to her parents feelings about abortion? if they can deny it, why cant they mandate it? the person who should have the MOST say and thus, legally speaking, the ONLY say is the person who is pregnant. if she is a minor, its still her body.

i agree. all minors should be encouraged to talk to their parents first. they should be offered support in doing so. things like going with the girl to talk to her parents or having them come to the doctors office.

most girls are terrified of the thought of telling their parents. most parents will end up being supportive of whatever the girl wants to do. few will beat their child or kick her out of the house

but for those girls who think this will happen and are adamantly opposed to telling their parents, that should be their choice. the state should accept that if she can choose abortion, she can also choose who to tell.
Yes. Honesty is always the best policy. If your parents are likely to turn on you for getting pregnant or getting an abortion, better to find that out and get yourself into another environment. But under-age girls shouldn't be left to face this risk on their own. If the girl is seriously afraid to talk to her parents, a qualified professional should help her -- someone trained to moderate such conversations, and authorized to step in if the girl's fears come true.

And then, what if the parents aren't available, as in the case of runaways, or children of addicts? Such kids may be so young, or in such poor condition, when they get pregnant that it would be dangerous for them to give birth. Apparently, this thread started with a case of a pregnant 12-year-old. Girls that young are at great risk in childbirth. Obviously, abortion must be an option, but, again, if they are under-age and no parent can be found to help them, then children's services should step in.

its her body and its an immediate problem. do we make her "slave" to her parents feelings about abortion? if they can deny it, why cant they mandate it? the person who should have the MOST say and thus, legally speaking, the ONLY say is the person who is pregnant. if she is a minor, its still her body.

We're getting back to the whole notification vs. consent thing again. The question was whether she should tell her parents, not if she needs her parents permission.

the difference is that an abortion has to be done NOW. its not something that can wait until the minor becomes an adult. the court cases that would be involved to remove the child from her parents care or to have a judge mandate that the abortion go forward means a much later abortion if one is then legally available at all due to the extended pregnancy.

if your kid wants breast implants and you disagree, she can just as well get them at 18. if she wants to abort her unplanned pregnancy, she has to do it NOW.

its her body and its an immediate problem. do we make her "slave" to her parents feelings about abortion? if they can deny it, why cant they mandate it? the person who should have the MOST say and thus, legally speaking, the ONLY say is the person who is pregnant. if she is a minor, its still her body.
Good points. Also, it seems to me that this question of who has legal authority to make decisions for the child overlook that there is often a disconnect between the age of sexual consent and the age of majority. If a person is allowed to have sex at age 16, for instance, it seems odd to me that parental notification should be an issue for anyone 16 or older. The newsworthy cases are the 12-year-olds, but the majority of "kids" who seek abortions and don't want to tell their parents are 16 and older. The laws in the US, at least, are inconsistent on this. Doesn't it seem logical that if you're competent to make sex decisions, you should also be competent to make pregnancy decisions?

We're getting back to the whole notification vs. consent thing again. The question was whether she should tell her parents, not if she needs her parents permission.
Why bother informing parents if they have no authority to decide?

Because they're responsible for their child until she turns 18. They should know what's going on in her life.

Good points. Also, it seems to me that this question of who has legal authority to make decisions for the child overlook that there is often a disconnect between the age of sexual consent and the age of majority. If a person is allowed to have sex at age 16, for instance, it seems odd to me that parental notification should be an issue for anyone 16 or older. The newsworthy cases are the 12-year-olds, but the majority of "kids" who seek abortions and don't want to tell their parents are 16 and older. The laws in the US, at least, are inconsistent on this. Doesn't it seem logical that if you're competent to make sex decisions, you should also be competent to make pregnancy decisions?
I would say the distinction lies between making sex decisions and making good sex decisions. Getting knocked up at 15 or 16 constitutes a poor sex decision in my mind. This is where the adults intervene.

Because they're responsible for their child until she turns 18. They should know what's going on in her life.
Agreed. Being informed if your child is pregnant should be no different from being informed if your child is doing poorly in school or if your child has been arrested. All of the above can have the same adverse reactions from the parents, the latter especially so, but nobody is debating those kinds of notifications.

Maybe because they are responsible for their child and should know what's going on in their life?
Then maybe they should talk to their kid instead of getting the government to force their kid to talk to them.

Because they're responsible for their child until she turns 18. They should know what's going on in her life.
A letter would do just as well then.

"Dear Sir/Madam:

This is to inform you that your child received an abortion on [date] at [hospital/clinic].

Sincerely, etc."

Should the bill be included with that?

Actually, it just occurred to me that, even if they weren't informed before, they will be when they get the bill.

Yeah the letter would be notification, so I'd agree to that.

Then maybe they should talk to their kid instead of getting the government to force their kid to talk to them.
Yeah, if they aren't talking to their kid in the first place they don't deserve to know. But if the kid isn't telling their parents about something as important as an abortion, I think the goverment would be doing the right thing by forcing her to tell her parents.

I would say the distinction lies between making sex decisions and making good sex decisions Getting knocked up at 15 or 16 constitutes a poor sex decision in my mind. This is where the adults intervene.


Agreed. Being informed if your child is pregnant should be no different from being informed if your child is doing poorly in school or if your child has been arrested. All of the above can have the same adverse reactions from the parents, the latter especially so, but nobody is debating those kinds of notifications.
Sorry, but nobody can make a person make good decisions, and mandatory parental notification in the case you describe seems like just a punishment for doing something someone else thinks the child shouldn't have.

And anyway, what makes you think the parents are any more capable of making good decisions? I know people who got "knocked up" at age 30, and it was a terrible decision on their part. Experience didn't help them. Most people in the world are idiots. They make horrendous decisions. It's shocking that they make it out of their teen years at all.

My point is, an under-age child should have an adult's guidance. I don't think that adult necessarily has to be the child's parent.

Yeah the letter would be notification, so I'd agree to that.


Yeah, if they aren't talking to their kid in the first place they don't deserve to know. But if the kid isn't telling their parents about something as important as an abortion, I think the goverment would be doing the right thing by forcing her to tell her parents.
If they don't deserve to know, how is it the right thing to tell them? I agree with you on most points, but I'm not following you on why it should be mandatory to inform the parents.

Most people in the world are idiots.

This is why people should be required to pass a competency exam before being allowed to have sex. :p

A letter would do just as well then.

"Dear Sir/Madam:

This is to inform you that your child received an abortion on [date] at [hospital/clinic].

Sincerely, etc."

Should the bill be included with that?

Actually, it just occurred to me that, even if they weren't informed before, they will be when they get the bill.
i dont know how it works in other countries but im pretty sure that that 12 year old girl is gonna have to bring her $1000 with her when she gets that abortion (i have no idea what the cash price is)

they wont bill the parents. no way.

This is why people should be required to pass a competency exam before being allowed to have sex. :p

I'd be interested in seeing some examples of test questions before I agree with you.

This is why people should be required to pass a competency exam before being allowed to have sex. :p
Based solely on 3 past boyfriends of mine, I agree with you 100%. :D

If they don't deserve to know, how is it the right thing to tell them? I agree with you on most points, but I'm not following you on why it should be mandatory to inform the parents.

No, the people that aren't deserving to know aren't the ones that the law would be intended for, it'd be for the ones that are talking to their kids but the kids aren't telling them everything. Those parents deserve to know, so the law would be intended for them. Unfortunately determining which parents deserve to know isn't exactly possible, so it would also include those that don't deserve to know. I don't know if I'm making much sense right now... I need more than 4 hours of sleep.....

Based solely on 3 past boyfriends of mine, I agree with you 100%. :D
ohmyGOD wouldnt that save us a world of frustration!!

i dont know how it works in other countries but im pretty sure that that 12 year old girl is gonna have to bring her $1000 with her when she gets that abortion (i have no idea what the cash price is)

they wont bill the parents. no way.
I would be interested to see if any hospital or clinic would perform an elective procedure on a 12-year-old without insurance coverage. The chances of complications are good, and so are the chances of additional costs. And if insurance is involved, then an adult is involved, even if it's not her parents.

I have poor article comprehension tonight. Is this 12-year-old in the US? If not, forget this post.

Or maybe, because of her age, they're thinking it is necessary, not elective?

I paid cash when I had an abortion, but that was 20 years ago, and I could afford it then. Nowadays, I'm sure I would need insurance.

ohmyGOD wouldnt that save us a world of frustration!!
I'll see medical history AND certificate of competence before a guy gets with Muravyets, thank you very much. ;)

No, the people that aren't deserving to know aren't the ones that the law would be intended for, it'd be for the ones that are talking to their kids but the kids aren't telling them everything. Those parents deserve to know, so the law would be intended for them. Unfortunately determining which parents deserve to know isn't exactly possible, so it would also include those that don't deserve to know. I don't know if I'm making much sense right now... I need more than 4 hours of sleep.....
That would require the goverment to comprehend a hell of a lot about subjective measures of family dynamics. Sleep on this and you'll say it better in the morning. (No guarantee I'll agree, though. :p )

I would be interested to see if any hospital or clinic would perform an elective procedure on a 12-year-old without insurance coverage. The chances of complications are good, and so are the chances of additional costs. And if insurance is involved, then an adult is involved, even if it's not her parents.

I have poor article comprehension tonight. Is this 12-year-old in the US? If not, forget this post.

Or maybe, because of her age, they're thinking it is necessary, not elective?

I paid cash when I had an abortion, but that was 20 years ago, and I could afford it then. Nowadays, I'm sure I would need insurance.
the 12 year old has been entirely hypothetical

a minor may be able to choose to have an abotion but i dont think they can put their parents in a situation where they have to pay for it. i dont think insurance will ever pay if the parents arent involved. after all they have to certify that it was all aboveboard dont they?

puts a whole new light on it doesnt it? how much money can a minor and her boyfriend come up with that parents wont "miss"?

That would require the goverment to comprehend a hell of a lot about subjective measures of family dynamics. Sleep on this and you'll say it better in the morning. (No guarantee I'll agree, though. :p )

Okay, one last try before I go to sleep:

In an attempt to help those parents that do "deserve" to know, the government says that a girl needs to tell her parents about her abortion. Because the goverment really can't/shouldn't decide which parents deserve to know, an (unwanted?) side effect of this would be that those parents that don't really deserve to know would end up knowing. Just because some parents are stupid doesn't mean that the good parents shouldn't know about their daughter's abortion.

And now I'll go to sleep. :)

One of my biggest issues with parental notification laws is that a minor is able to recieve any treatment pertaining to a pregnancy without the knowledge or consent of her parents, except an abortion. Many states require the police to be notified if the minor is of an extremely young age, but not the parents. Making that distinction is purely political.

I don't think so. Each person should have the ability to do whatever they want to their own bodies without anyone else knowing. If someone wants to cut themselves in private, to do drugs in private, or to have an abortion in private, then I believe that person should have that right. As long as they're not directly hurting anyone else with their actions (such as suicide bombing), I believe that person has both the right to privacy and the right to do what they wish with their own body.

This only applies to ADULTS. Otherwise you don't hold the adult responsible for anything the child does and you allow the child to not truely learn. Now what is an adult? That depends on the age legally defined in the area the theoretical teen abortion is occuring in. AS far as the "father raping daughter" arguement: Hello there is a mother there too you know...or at least some kind of guardian who would have to make that medical decision for the child.

Now I am one for keeping abortions legal and above ground. But I will never stand for anything that takes a parent out of the loop of their childs' upbringing and health. If they fail to do something that's one thing, but to legally prevent them from having a say in that decision when the law holds them responsible on all other matters is wrong.

Okay, one last try before I go to sleep:

In an attempt to help those parents that do "deserve" to know, the government says that a girl needs to tell her parents about her abortion. Because the goverment really can't/shouldn't decide which parents deserve to know, an (unwanted?) side effect of this would be that those parents that don't really deserve to know would end up knowing. Just because some parents are stupid doesn't mean that the good parents shouldn't know about their daughter's abortion.

And now I'll go to sleep. :)
I get it now, but I still have some reservations. I am more interested in what's in the best interest of the girl. An under-age girl needs guidance from an adult, but does that adult necessarily have to be the parents? In the great majority of cases, it will be, but laws are designed to deal with the minority of cases that go wrong. I don't oppose parental notification per se, but I do oppose laws that would make it mandatory. The people who can work this out the best are the girl and the doctor taking care of her. It should be up to the doctor to decide whether it would be a bad thing to notify the parents, not some boilerplate law that doesn't take individual cases into consideration. Again, in the majority of cases, the parents will be notified.

What's your reasoning behind this opinion?

It's a parents perogative to raise their kids in a manner in which they please, according to their morals, provided they aren't breaking any laws to do so. And if my underage daughter is getting an abortion, I would damn sure want to know about it. If they wouldn't consider it a necessary act or courtesy, they'd have to talk to my attorneys about the repercussions of that act. That way we can have a nice cosy chat about irresponsible behavior, her and I, and consequences of said behavior.

the 12 year old has been entirely hypothetical

a minor may be able to choose to have an abotion but i dont think they can put their parents in a situation where they have to pay for it. i dont think insurance will ever pay if the parents arent involved. after all they have to certify that it was all aboveboard dont they?

puts a whole new light on it doesnt it? how much money can a minor and her boyfriend come up with that parents wont "miss"?
Insurance companies will (or should) pay any bill that is submitted for treatment of a person who is a beneficiary of one of their policies, even if that person is a dependent of the main policy holder. But they will not refrain from notifying the main policy holder (i.e. the parent), if only because they will send a statement for the payout to the policy holder.

For some in-office procedures (that don't need anesthesia), the bill will be low enough to pay cash, so no insurance is needed. But it is extremely unlikely that a 12-year-old would be given an abortion without anesthesia -- that is usually only done by women who have already had more than one child. Giving anesthetics to children (even just local anesthesia) is risky because their bodies are growing so rapidly that it is very difficult to give precise dosages. That's where the risk of complications comes in -- so a $1000 out-patient procedure could, without warning, transform into a $20,000 hospital stay.

That also puts a different light on it, eh? Makes one wonder if these hypothetical 12-year-olds getting abortions without telling their parents are nothing more than red herrings.

Insurance companies will (or should) pay any bill that is submitted for treatment of a person who is a beneficiary of one of their policies, even if that person is a dependent of the main policy holder. But they will not refrain from notifying the main policy holder (i.e. the parent), if only because they will send a statement for the payout to the policy holder.

For some in-office procedures (that don't need anesthesia), the bill will be low enough to pay cash, so no insurance is needed. But it is extremely unlikely that a 12-year-old would be given an abortion without anesthesia -- that is usually only done by women who have already had more than one child. Giving anesthetics to children (even just local anesthesia) is risky because their bodies are growing so rapidly that it is very difficult to give precise dosages. That's where the risk of complications comes in -- so a $1000 out-patient procedure could, without warning, transform into a $20,000 hospital stay.

That also puts a different light on it, eh? Makes one wonder if these hypothetical 12-year-olds getting abortions without telling their parents are nothing more than red herrings.
well now of course the insurance that comes from my husbands job pays for anything medical that i might contract for (as long as its covered of course) but can a minor really obligate the insurance company for a non-emergency elective procedure without prior consent of the adult policy holder? just asking, if you dont know for sure, no big deal.

yeah it does put a VERY different light on things. most kids dont even carry their own insurance cards anyway.

What happens if a girl is raped by her father? It's sickening, but it does happen. Should she be forced to inform her father that she's getting an abortion? No, she should have her father arrested.
Mybe that would be slightly more serious?
Ah if i had a pregnancy (which would be difficult being male) i would tell my parents anyway. Depends what kind of relationship you have with them and whether they are gunna beat the crap out of you for it and stuff...

Mybe that would be slightly more serious?
Ah if i had a pregnancy (which would be difficult being male) i would tell my parents anyway. Depends what kind of relationship you have with them and whether they are gunna beat the crap out of you for it and stuff...

It mostly leads to a kid's relation ships with their parents that determines if they will open to them.

Mybe that would be slightly more serious?
Ah if i had a pregnancy (which would be difficult being male) i would tell my parents anyway. Depends what kind of relationship you have with them and whether they are gunna beat the crap out of you for it and stuff...

Exactly. If a child has a good relationship with his/her parents, these things will most likely be out in the open anyways.

The courts have pretty consistently held that parental consent laws are ok, so long as they have an "out", as it were, for a child who feels it would be dangerous to tell her parents to petition the court to make her own decision. In the end, it would mean that, in most cases, the parents know and must consent. However, if a minor could demonstrate that telling her parents is not in her best interest, she could get around doing so.

As for the insurance discussions, I don't think abortion procedures (unless there are complications requiring emergency care) generally go through insurance at all. Most people simply pay out of pocket for them. It would be difficult for a young minor to get together the money, but not necessarily impossible.

well now of course the insurance that comes from my husbands job pays for anything medical that i might contract for (as long as its covered of course) but can a minor really obligate the insurance company for a non-emergency elective procedure without prior consent of the adult policy holder? just asking, if you dont know for sure, no big deal.

yeah it does put a VERY different light on things. most kids dont even carry their own insurance cards anyway.
I don't know for sure, having no kids to insure, but I think in general, the insurance companies only check if the procedure is covered and if the patient is a legitimate beneficiary. Possibly it would be different for very young children (under age 16).

Insurance companies will (or should) pay any bill that is submitted for treatment of a person who is a beneficiary of one of their policies, even if that person is a dependent of the main policy holder. But they will not refrain from notifying the main policy holder (i.e. the parent), if only because they will send a statement for the payout to the policy holder.

For some in-office procedures (that don't need anesthesia), the bill will be low enough to pay cash, so no insurance is needed. But it is extremely unlikely that a 12-year-old would be given an abortion without anesthesia -- that is usually only done by women who have already had more than one child. Giving anesthetics to children (even just local anesthesia) is risky because their bodies are growing so rapidly that it is very difficult to give precise dosages. That's where the risk of complications comes in -- so a $1000 out-patient procedure could, without warning, transform into a $20,000 hospital stay.

That also puts a different light on it, eh? Makes one wonder if these hypothetical 12-year-olds getting abortions without telling their parents are nothing more than red herrings.
Abortions done in clinics are done under local anastetic and abortions done in hospitals are done under general anastetic.

Exactly. If a child has a good relationship with his/her parents, these things will most likely be out in the open anyways.

The courts have pretty consistently held that parental consent laws are ok, so long as they have an "out", as it were, for a child who feels it would be dangerous to tell her parents to petition the court to make her own decision. In the end, it would mean that, in most cases, the parents know and must consent. However, if a minor could demonstrate that telling her parents is not in her best interest, she could get around doing so.

As for the insurance discussions, I don't think abortion procedures (unless there are complications requiring emergency care) generally go through insurance at all. Most people simply pay out of pocket for them. It would be difficult for a young minor to get together the money, but not necessarily impossible.
All of that is true -- and I agree completely -- but as for insurance coverage, abortion is generally covered, but a lot of people are uncomfortable putting in a claim, especially if they get their insurance through work. They often don't trust that their confidentiality is safe. But I believe clinics still ask if the patient will be self-paying or using insurance. I base this on the fact that recent health insurance plans I've gotten through jobs have specifically listed abortions as covered. But, as I've said, it's been 20 years since my own experience with abortion -- and I wasn't insured at the time, so I paid cash.

Anyway, the insurance question isn't really important. It only came up because of this hypothetical pregnant 12-year-old. I think being a pregnant 12-year-old would constitute a potential emergency situation with complications, and I doubted whether a clinic or hospital would perform such a procedure on a 12-year-old without coverage in case of additional costs -- unless it was an imminent emergency, of course.

And so, if insurance is involved, then the policy holder is involved and, thus, the parent/guardian will be notified -- somehow, eventually. I guess I was just challenging the idea that a 12-year-old could get an abortion secretly.

Abortions done in clinics are done under local anastetic and abortions done in hospitals are done under general anastetic.
Mine was done in a clinic under general anesthetic with a hospital-affiliated doctor.

20 years ago. Possibly enough women died that way that they now no longer do general anesthesia in clinics. But my point was that even local anasthetics can be dangerous for young children -- it's all in the dosage, and anesthesia is one of the most dangerous aspects of surgery anyway -- so I still think a clinic would probably hesitate to give an abortion to a 12-year-old. She would probably end up getting it in a hospital, even if they didn't want to put her under entirely.

Mine was done in a clinic under general anesthetic with a hospital-affiliated doctor.

20 years ago. Possibly enough women died that way that they now no longer do general anesthesia in clinics. But my point was that even local anasthetics can be dangerous for young children -- it's all in the dosage, and anesthesia is one of the most dangerous aspects of surgery anyway -- so I still think a clinic would probably hesitate to give an abortion to a 12-year-old. She would probably end up getting it in a hospital, even if they didn't want to put her under entirely.
I remember getting my wisdom teeth out... I wasn't that young, but they they can do it gradually so they don't overdose a kid.

I remember getting my wisdom teeth out... I wasn't that young, but they they can do it gradually so they don't overdose a kid.
OMG, I can just see the anti-choice reaction to that comparison. :eek: :p

OMG, I can just see the anti-choice reaction to that comparison. :eek: :p When I was a fœtus, I burrowed into my mother's jaw and stayed there.

Cat-Tribe.... I want to not have your baby. But we can practice. I think I'm in love. Dakini, I love you too, but I prefer guys.
Eutrusca, your Southern gentlemean bit plays well most of the time, but the hissy fit comment was tacky.

In an ideal world, parental consent is a nifty idea. But I knew every posssible form of dysfunctional family when I was growing up, and getting thrown out was the least of some of those s problems. You you idealists who talk about putting them in a nice foster home need a good hard dose of reality. Studies show the place a child is most likely to be ually abused is a foster home.

Crap. Libririan kicked me out.

Hmmm that is a tough one.

Personally I don't like the idea of the goverment mandating such a horrible decession for me.

The Religious types should worry about their own souls.

Any of the male types that spout off "no way in hell should a girl have an abortion" should sit down and talk to a couple that had to make that choice.

I might add you might be surprised that women you know have had them. Some probably won't take about it especially if you are rather nasty about it.....

I can give one perspective of a woman at work. She was 15 when she got knocked up. Her sister helped her get one because the parents would have basically thrown her to the streets("Good Catholics"). She debated the issue for awhile but decided it was for the better as there was no way to hide the pregnancy.

She sometimes regrets it but she figures she acomplished more but not being a teenage mom. Especially considering that her father was a real bastard from what I could get from her.

So parental notification? I have to say no. I would think if you have a good relationship with your children they would come forth with such a horrible choice.

I don't know. Maybe some refuse to look at themselves and wonder if they have a good relationship with their children? Maybe they don't want to find out what kind of a parent they are? I don't know.

For the record. Yes I have a daughter and I hope that if she ever has this problem she can feel she can approach me about it. I work at being a part of her life so hopefully she will never make this mistake.

I don't think so. Each person should have the ability to do whatever they want to their own bodies without anyone else knowing. If someone wants to cut themselves in private, to do drugs in private, or to have an abortion in private, then I believe that person should have that right. As long as they're not directly hurting anyone else with their actions (such as suicide bombing), I believe that person has both the right to privacy and the right to do what they wish with their own body.

Children do not have a right to privacy apart from their parents...

NEXT...

Tekania, I love tha Paine quote in your sig.

Cat-Tribe.... I want to not have your baby. But we can practice. I think I'm in love. Dakini, I love you too, but I prefer guys.
Eutrusca, your Southern gentlemean bit plays well most of the time, but the hissy fit comment was tacky.

In an ideal world, parental consent is a nifty idea. But I knew every posssible form of dysfunctional family when I was growing up, and getting thrown out was the least of some of those s problems. You you idealists who talk about putting them in a nice foster home need a good hard dose of reality. Studies show the place a child is most likely to be ually abused is a foster home.

Crap. Libririan kicked me out. Hard cases make bad law.

We have a shite Librarian too. Phonophobic.