NationStates Jolt Archive

An underage child can not be given medical treatment without the concent of the parent. A child in school can not be given an asprin without parental concent. Shouldn't a parent be notified before their daughter has an abortion?

Looks like the Supreme Court is going to decide on this New Hampshire law.

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/USATODAY/2005/05/24/865909?extID=10032&oliID=213

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176780,00.html

If Ashley wants to get an abortion because she sold her cootie for Gucci then let her and dont make our little nympho ever have to tell her straight-laced suburbia living parents about her "buisness"...

If a child needs parental permission to undergo a tattoo or medical procedures, why shouldn't they need to be informed about their daughter having an abortion?

I don't think so. Each person should have the ability to do whatever they want to their own bodies without anyone else knowing. If someone wants to cut themselves in private, to do drugs in private, or to have an abortion in private, then I believe that person should have that right. As long as they're not directly hurting anyone else with their actions (such as suicide bombing), I believe that person has both the right to privacy and the right to do what they wish with their own body.

An underage child can not be given medical treatment without the concent of the parent. A child in school can not be given an asprin without parental concent. Shouldn't a parent be notified before their daughter has an abortion?
YES! As a father of three daughters and grandfather of two grand-daughters, this is a hot-button issue for me. Abortion without parental notification is NOT acceptable ... period!

YES! As a father of three daughters and grandfather of two grand-daughters, this is a hot-button issue for me. Abortion without parental notification is NOT acceptable ... period!

What's your reasoning behind this opinion?

I don't think so. Each person should have the ability to do whatever they want to their own bodies without anyone else knowing. If someone wants to cut themselves in private, to do drugs in private, or to have an abortion in private, then I believe that person should have that right. As long as they're not directly hurting anyone else with their actions (such as suicide bombing), I believe that person has both the right to privacy and the right to do what they wish with their own body.
Bullshit. Underage daughters should never, ever have an abortion without parental notification. Ever!

Bullshit. Underage daughters should never, ever have an abortion without parental notification. Ever!

Again, what's the reasoning behind your opinion?

What's your reasoning behind this opinion?
My reasoning? WTF, over??? That should be so painfully obvious as to not need stating.

However, just for you: underage girls ( like underage boys ) do not yet have a firm grip on either maturity or reality. That's why there are parents. To perform a medical procedure on your child without your knowledge should be a criminal act, punishable by several years in prison ... at a minimum!

it depends really if a 12 year old is pregnant I think its time to tell the parents (and possibly kill the 12 year old father) if the child is 15 I think its perfectly fine to keep it a secret

Mind you isn’t it illegal to have sex under age? Time to call crime watch and see the reconstruction (of course with legal adults in school uniforms:D )

What happens if a girl is raped by her father? It's sickening, but it does happen. Should she be forced to inform her father that she's getting an abortion? No, she should have her father arrested.

I don't think so. Each person should have the ability to do whatever they want to their own bodies without anyone else knowing. If someone wants to cut themselves in private, to do drugs in private, or to have an abortion in private, then I believe that person should have that right. As long as they're not directly hurting anyone else with their actions (such as suicide bombing), I believe that person has both the right to privacy and the right to do what they wish with their own body.

And at what age should they get the right to do these things?

it depends really if a 12 year old is pregnant I think its time to tell the parents (and possibly kill the 12 year old father) if the child is 15 I think its perfectly fine to keep it a secret

Mind you isn’t it illegal to have sex under age? Time to call crime watch and see the reconstruction (of course with legal adults in school uniforms:D )
No, I'm not aware of any jurisdiction where "underage sex" is illegal. That's as unrealistic as allowing abortions without parental notification.

well this raises an interesting question, should abortion even be legal? i say no, as to me it is a form of murder.

it depends really if a 12 year old is pregnant I think its time to tell the parents (and possibly kill the 12 year old father) if the child is 15 I think its perfectly fine to keep it a secret

Mind you isn’t it illegal to have sex under age? Time to call crime watch and see the reconstruction (of course with legal adults in school uniforms:D )
(Sorry for double post)
And no, it is not illegal for underage children to have sex, just frowned upon and probably a little immoral.

What happens if a girl is raped by her father? It's sickening, but it does happen. Should she be forced to inform her father that she's getting an abortion? No, she should have her father arrested.
Get serious. There are always exceptions to any rule, including the need for parental notification. :rolleyes:

it depends really if a 12 year old is pregnant I think its time to tell the parents (and possibly kill the 12 year old father) if the child is 15 I think its perfectly fine to keep it a secret

Mind you isn’t it illegal to have sex under age? Time to call crime watch and see the reconstruction (of course with legal adults in school uniforms:D )


In many states a 15 year old can't legally work without parental permission, yet it's ok to have a fetus sucked out of them?

well this raises an interesting question, should abortion even be legal? i say no, as to me it is a form of murder.

That is not the issue of this thread. That has been debated on many other threads and I would prefer it not be debated here. Please stay with the issue of parental notification. Thank you.

Hmm.. let's pull out the imaginary set of scales here... let's weigh, on one side, a child's embarassment... on the other, a parent's ability to minitor the well-being and habits of a child they are legally liable for... ooh.. that one seems much heavier.

The scale never lies. :(

well this raises an interesting question, should abortion even be legal? i say no, as to me it is a form of murder.
I tend to agree, in principal. However, there truly is no practical way, or indeed, any justification, for telling a woman what she has to do with her own womb. There's no practical way of addressing the issue of abortion other than placing the decision squarely on the shoulders of the pregnant person.

That is not the issue of this thread. That has been debated on many other threads and I would prefer it not be debated here. Please stay with the issue of parental notification. Thank you.
Aaaaamennn! Heh!

That is not the issue of this thread. That has been debated on many other threads and I would prefer it not be debated here. Please stay with the issue of parental notification. Thank you.
ye well i don't have a view on tjhat because it goes against my main view that abortion in general should be illegal, therefor the girl could not get one anyway.

Well, I think anyone under 14 who wants an abortion should have to have parentel notificication unless it was rape in part of a parent, but anyone older should be able to.
Also, take this situation: the girl was raped. She's maybe 15, and is still in school and has no way to support a baby. She goes to her parents, but let's say they say no because they say that it's immoral. Now, the girl had no choice in this matter, and now she has a baby to support.This could stop her from going to college, thus stopping her from getting a good career, just because her parents said no.

If a parent raised their daughter right, then they shouldn't need the government to force her to tell the parent about it. It's a lazy way out.

On the other hand, it makes sense that if you need parental permission to take aspirin, then you should need it for an abortion.

However, I am against such a law for this reason:

I think that the problem with such legislation is that it would create a class of young mothers who were denied permission to get an abortion, yet their parents refused to help pay to raise the child. You know what that means: Welfare mothers. And one of my pet peeves is welfare mothers.

Another thing I notice is that most people who want to make a law to require parental consent are against abortion in general being legal, which rather makes me question their motives.

What happens if a girl is raped by her father? It's sickening, but it does happen. Should she be forced to inform her father that she's getting an abortion? No, she should have her father arrested.
That's a commonly used reason. Firstly, it's an extreme minority of cases. Second, there are other other legal pathways that may be taken in such a case.

Although there are strong arguments for and against, I believe that parental notification shouldn't be needed. The embarassment and social stigma would drive many young girls to seek underground abortions, which would have far greater risks to them, or go through with the pregnancy and have a baby that they can't look after.

A law like this won't stop people from having underage sex (and causing underage pregnancies), it will just make the problems worse.

(Sorry for double post)
And no, it is not illegal for underage children to have sex, just frowned upon and probably a little immoral.

actually if the police find it it gets put on your permanent record stopping you from being a teacher

Well, I think anyone under 14 who wants an abortion should have to have parentel notificication unless it was rape in part of a parent, but anyone older should be able to.
Also, take this situation: the girl was raped. She's maybe 15, and is still in school and has no way to support a baby. She goes to her parents, but let's say they say no because they say that it's immoral. Now, the girl had no choice in this matter, and now she has a baby to support.This could stop her from going to college, thus stopping her from getting a good career, just because her parents said no.

do you even know how rare pregnancies resulting from rape are?

My reasoning? WTF, over??? That should be so painfully obvious as to not need stating.

However, just for you: underage girls ( like underage boys ) do not yet have a firm grip on either maturity or reality. That's why there are parents. To perform a medical procedure on your child without your knowledge should be a criminal act, punishable by several years in prison ... at a minimum!

So, basically you're saying that "underage" people (whatever that vague term means) are neither smart nor capable of making their own decisions. You also imply that parents should not be guides, but should have control over every aspect of a child's life, like a puppetmaster. That seems a bit unfair to me. But then again, I guess conservatives would know all about that.

Well, I think anyone under 14 who wants an abortion should have to have parentel notificication unless it was rape in part of a parent, but anyone older should be able to.
Also, take this situation: the girl was raped. She's maybe 15, and is still in school and has no way to support a baby. She goes to her parents, but let's say they say no because they say that it's immoral. Now, the girl had no choice in this matter, and now she has a baby to support.This could stop her from going to college, thus stopping her from getting a good career, just because her parents said no.
1. There's no way any law can take into account all possible circumstances.

2. Any parent who insists their underage daughter not have an abortion after being raped should be declared an unfit parent.

3. There's a difference between parental notification and parental consent. My personal view is that any girl under 15 who gets pregnant should have parental consent to get an abortion, and the parents of any girl between 15 and 18 who becomes pregnant should be notified of the girl's intent to have an abortion. After 18, she's on her own.

And at what age should they get the right to do these things?

I believe in natural rights, so as soon as they're born they should get these rights. But that's just my personal opinion.

Well, I think anyone under 14 who wants an abortion should have to have parentel notificication unless it was rape in part of a parent, but anyone older should be able to.
Also, take this situation: the girl was raped. She's maybe 15, and is still in school and has no way to support a baby. She goes to her parents, but let's say they say no because they say that it's immoral. Now, the girl had no choice in this matter, and now she has a baby to support.This could stop her from going to college, thus stopping her from getting a good career, just because her parents said no.

At what age should the parents responsibility for raising a child stop? As long as they have a legal and moral responsibility for the child shouldn't they have a say in any medical procedure performed on the child?

So, basically you're saying that "underage" people (whatever that vague term means) are neither smart nor capable of making their own decisions. You also imply that parents should not be guides, but should have control over every aspect of a child's life, like a puppetmaster. That seems a bit unfair to me. But then again, I guess conservatives would know all about that.

Wait until you're older.. you probably won't be able to look back and deconstruct your own logic, even if it "made sense" to you at the time.. I'm quite guilty of this myself. :p

Although there are strong arguments for and against, I believe that parental notification shouldn't be needed. The embarassment and social stigma would drive many young girls to seek underground abortions, which would have far greater risks to them, or go through with the pregnancy and have a baby that they can't look after.

Isn't adoption of the baby an option?

Wait until you're older.. you probably won't be able to look back and deconstruct your own logic, even if it "made sense" to you at the time.. I'm quite guilty of this myself. :p

I guess we'll see, won't we?

So, basically you're saying that "underage" people (whatever that vague term means) are neither smart nor capable of making their own decisions. You also imply that parents should not be guides, but should have control over every aspect of a child's life, like a puppetmaster. That seems a bit unfair to me. But then again, I guess conservatives would know all about that.
Making a lot of totally unwarranted assumptions, are we? Tsk. You'll have to get over that if you want to be taken with any degree of credibility on here.

1. I never said nor indicated that underage girls or boys aren't smart or capable of making decisons.

2. I never said nor implied that parents should be "puppetmasters."

3. I am not a conservative.

Kindly limit yourself to facts. If you want to know more about my position on things, avoid making unwarranted assumptions and ask me about things you want to know.

Yes, parents should be notified, with a couple of exceptions.

First, abortion is a medical procedure. Parents are required to give consent for other medical procedures, so I don't see why this one should be treated any differently. Personal autonomy or not, minors cannot on their own consent to receiving prescription medications or to surgical procedures.

However, if, for some reason, an emergency abortion is deemed medically necessary to protect the life of the mother, then I don't think parental consent should be required. (But I suspect the topic is not aimed at this kind of situation.)

Finally, there should be some alternative (i.e., judicial bypass) for girls with neglectful, abusive, or other "unfit" parents. These girls might legitimately fear some form of retaliation from their parents for even asking to abort, let alone actually doing so.

I guess we'll see, won't we?

Hopefully it won't be so bad in your case.. I've got some.. eh.. "regrets." :(

At what age should the parents responsibility for raising a child stop? As long as they have a legal and moral responsibility for the child shouldn't they have a say in any medical procedure performed on the child?
The generally accepted age is 18, as you know. Until we have some infallible way of measuring degree of maturity, 18 will have to do.

Yes, as long as my child is my responsibility, he/she is answerable to me ... period! End of discussion.

I believe in natural rights, so as soon as they're born they should get these rights. But that's just my personal opinion.

So the parents have no legal or moral responsibilty for the child? The child from birth is alowed to do whatever it pleases and the parents can not stop it from doing as it pleases?

So the parents have no legal or moral responsibilty for the child? The child from birth is alowed to do whatever it pleases and the parents can not stop it from doing as it pleases?
Madness.

Okay, I think I was confusing the terms notify and consent. Yes, a girl should have to have notification, but not concent

Madness.

I'm waiting for GhostEmperor to have some kids of his/her own. They probably won't live very long, running into streets, sticking fingers in light sockets, etc. :(

Isn't adoption of the baby an option?

Oops. Yes, it is. A good one too, in certain circumstances.

But even so, in certain families/areas the stigma of becoming pregnant underage (outside marriage) may lead young people to seek abortions before their parents find out. If the parents are told about the abortion, this may cause more underground (dangerous) abortions, or possibly in extreme cases suicide.

Making a lot of totally unwarranted assumptions, are we? Tsk. You'll have to get over that if you want to be taken with any degree of credibility on here.

1. I never said nor indicated that underage girls or boys aren't smart or capable of making decisons.

2. I never said nor implied that parents should be "puppetmasters."

3. I am not a conservative.

Kindly limit yourself to facts. If you want to know more about my position on things, avoid making unwarranted assumptions and ask me about things you want to know.

Actually, those conclusions (assumptions would be me making a guess before I heard what you had to say) were derived from your own words. Let me elaborate:

underage girls ( like underage boys ) do not yet have a firm grip on either maturity or reality.

Therefore, "underage" people are crazy (not having a firm grip on reality) and unintelligent (not having a firm grip on reality and maturity).

That's why there are parents.

Therefore, parents play the only role in a child's life. Because the parents are there for no other reason than to get the child through life (and since the child lacks a "firm grip on either maturity or reality"), the parent is the only one capable of making decisions for the child.

To perform a medical procedure on your child without your knowledge should be a criminal act, punishable by several years in prison ... at a minimum!

Therefore, you are conservative. Because you favor such a large penalty for such a small infraction, you are (evidently) conservative in your outlook.

All of these are perfectly logical conclusions based upon your statements.

In my opinion, yes the parent(s) should always be informed if their underaged daughter is pregnant and plans to have an abortion, so that they have a chance to discuss it with their child. However, I don't think that they should have any legal 'veto' rights in the case of this particular medical procedure. The daughter should be able to have the abortion if she chooses, regardless of her parents' wishes, in much the same way as a child should have the right to conventional medical treatment for an ailment even if their parents only want to have them treated with herbs and magic.

So the parents have no legal or moral responsibilty for the child? The child from birth is alowed to do whatever it pleases and the parents can not stop it from doing as it pleases?

Plenty of animals let their children do as they wish. They seem pretty sucessful as far as survival goes.

Plenty of animals let their children do as they wish. They seem pretty sucessful as far as survival goes.
I obviously can't speak for your children-to-be, but I didn't raise my children to be wild animals, and neither, I suspect, will most others.

Plenty of animals let their children do as they wish. They seem pretty sucessful as far as survival goes.

Human beings are born in an extremely undeveloped state.. some animals are born on their feet, ready to walk.. not us. We're some of the most dependent animals on Earth at birth.

Human beings are born in an extremely undeveloped state.. some animals are born on their feet, ready to walk.. not us. We're some of the most dependent animals on Earth at birth.
And humans, as communal animals, must go through a long process of socialization in order to function well within society.

And humans, as communal animals, must go through a long process of socialization in order to function well within society.

Either that or get a Union job...

An underage child can not be given medical treatment without the concent of the parent. A child in school can not be given an asprin without parental concent. Shouldn't a parent be notified before their daughter has an abortion?

Looks like the Supreme Court is going to decide on this New Hampshire law.

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/USATODAY/2005/05/24/865909?extID=10032&oliID=213

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176780,00.html
Short answer: YES

Long answer: YESSSSSSS!!

Either that or get a Union job...
ROFLMAO! Tsk! :D

Short answer: YES

Long answer: YESSSSSSS!!
I think it would be interesting to see if the age of those voting in this sort of poll correlates with their choice of either "yes" or "no." And whether they are parents or not would be even more illuminating. :D

ROFLMAO! Tsk! :D

So, are you going to address the conclusions I derived from your statements, or was I completely right?

An underage child can not be given medical treatment without the concent of the parent. A child in school can not be given an asprin without parental concent. Shouldn't a parent be notified before their daughter has an abortion?

Looks like the Supreme Court is going to decide on this New Hampshire law.

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/USATODAY/2005/05/24/865909?extID=10032&oliID=213

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176780,00.html

IMO, no, not necessarily. However, I think the girl in question should have to talk to a trained counsellor in confidence before undergoing the procedure. Also the counsellor should in most cases (unless there is a very good reason otherwise) strongly advise the girl to discuss the matter with her parent(s) / legal guardian(s). Ultimately the decision should be the child's to make, based upon advice given by the councelor and medical proffesionals. Forcing parents to be notified would probably result in more underground abortions taking place, an issue which those here who think parents should be notified (or give consent) seem to be ignoring.

IMO, no, not necessarily. However, I think the girl in question should have to talk to a trained counsellor in confidence before undergoing the procedure. Also the counsellor should in most cases (unless there is a very good reason otherwise) strongly advise the girl to discuss the matter with her parent(s) / legal guardian(s). Ultimately the decision should be the child's to make, based upon advice given by the councelor and medical proffesionals. Forcing parents to be notified would probably result in more underground abortions taking place, an issue which those here who think parents should be notified (or give consent) seem to be ignoring.

Bravo! Someone who sees the whole picture!

So, are you going to address the conclusions I derived from your statements, or was I completely right?
What conclusions? All you did was make wild assumptions, none of which were correct. What else can I say?

once your "pure,innocent"(gag,puke)little "girl" becomes pregnant,she is no longer a kid,she is a woman and a parent. period. only women can get pregnant.its called puberty people. it then falls under parents rights(or should)and you become the grandparents,like it or not. its her decision to keep it or not,and the clinic/hospital should honor her privacy the same way that they would with an older adult. if you had a good,trusting relationship with your daughter,you wouldnt have to worry about being informed because your daughter would come to you first. if your daughter doesnt tell you she is pregnant,then that might say something about your parenting skills and your relationship with your daughter....

common sense...get some

as a boyfriend , i would not wanta parent to know if me and my girlfriend had had sex (telling them she wanted an abortion.). but as a father i suppose i would wish to know if my daughter was having an abortion so i could help her cope with the stress and hopefully get to know her boyfriend....this is a difficult issue for me...i suppose abortions should require parental consent...

What conclusions? All you did was make wild assumptions, none of which were correct. What else can I say?

I guess you didn't see my logic on page 3, a reply to your post, so here's a link so you don't get lost:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=456232&page=3

IMO, no, not necessarily. However, I think the girl in question should have to talk to a trained counsellor in confidence before undergoing the procedure. Also the counsellor should in most cases (unless there is a very good reason otherwise) strongly advise the girl to discuss the matter with her parent(s) / legal guardian(s). Ultimately the decision should be the child's to make, based upon advice given by the councelor and medical proffesionals. Forcing parents to be notified would probably result in more underground abortions taking place, an issue which those here who think parents should be notified (or give consent) seem to be ignoring.
Yes, there should be allowances made for idiot parents.

Yes, pregnant girls above 18 should be allowed to make the decision on their own.

Yes, counseling is a good idea and highly recommended.

NO, I would never accept not being notified of my underage daughter's decision to seek an abortion. Never, ever. Period.

Yes, the one thing that requires distinction in this thread is the difference between notification and consent. Should parents be notified? Yes, up until age 18. Consent? Well, that's where things get sticky. This is what I think:

<15 years - abort. Children have no business becoming parents at that age. I can explain further if someone would like me to justify it, but let's just say I'm not likely to change my mind.

15-18 years - fetus may be allowed to develop to term provided the parents (the non-teenage ones) adopt the child until the mother is 18. If the parents are not willing to adopt the child, then abort. Teenage mothers may seek emancipation to overrule this decision.

Nope. It'd be damn polite to tell the parents, but we can't force politness on people.

I think it would be interesting to see if the age of those voting in this sort of poll correlates with their choice of either "yes" or "no." And whether they are parents or not would be even more illuminating. :D 16, not a parent (at least, I don't think so), and I go for yes.

Quite frankly, I would not want my daughter to do something this harmful, psychologically damaging, major and in my view wrong, without my knowing. Children should not have total autonomy.

Nope. It'd be damn polite to tell the parents, but we can't force politness on people.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with "politeness." It has everything to do with the Parent-Child relationship, and with the maturity ( or lack thereof ) of the child.

15-18 years - fetus may be allowed to develop to term provided the parents (the non-teenage ones) adopt the child until the mother is 18. If the parents are not willing to adopt the child, then abort. Teenage mothers may seek emancipation to overrule this decision.
:p
let me just say that this is at the very heart of the issue and i agree that this is what should be done thanks PasturePastry

16, not a parent (at least, I don't think so), and I go for yes.

Quite frankly, I would not want my daughter to do something this harmful, psychologically damaging, major and in my view wrong, without my knowing. Children should not have total autonomy.
Careful! Your maturity is showing! ;)

i think parental notification laws are stupid. what business does the government have in mandating communication?

since notification doesnt change the girls legal right to make her own decision, all it is is a stumbling block to her getting an abortion as early in the pregnancy as possible.

parental CONSENT laws make some sense. at least then, when they are informed, they are the ones who decide if the girl can have an abortion or not. that makes it a matter of decision making not just communication

(not that im particularily in favor of parental consent laws)

i think parental notification laws are stupid. what business does the government have in mandating communication?

since notification doesnt change the girls legal right to make her own decision, all it is is a stumbling block to her getting an abortion as early in the pregnancy as possible.

parental CONSENT laws make some sense. at least then, when they are informed, they are the ones who decide if the girl can have an abortion or not. that makes it a matter of decision making not just communication

(not that im particularily in favor of parental consent laws)
[ confused look ] So are you saying that neither notification or consent are acceptable? :confused:

common sense...get some

Hmm...

Just because someone can physically become pregnant doesn't make them emotionally mature. Hows that for common sense, even from someone who also doesn't believe in parental notification?

And Anarchist Principles has good ideas.

Yes, the one thing that requires distinction in this thread is the difference between notification and consent. Should parents be notified? Yes, up until age 18. Consent? Well, that's where things get sticky. This is what I think:

<15 years - abort. Children have no business becoming parents at that age. I can explain further if someone would like me to justify it, but let's just say I'm not likely to change my mind.

15-18 years - fetus may be allowed to develop to term provided the parents (the non-teenage ones) adopt the child until the mother is 18. If the parents are not willing to adopt the child, then abort. Teenage mothers may seek emancipation to overrule this decision.
which is why you will never have control over this issue

how do you suppose a pregnancy is going to come to the attention of the government so that IT can decide who is worthy of having a baby?

either a 14 year old goes to a doctor who is forced to report it, or she doesnt go to a doctor and she hides her pregnancy until it is so advance that one of her teachers finally notices and goes to the authorities (theres a country id love to live in)

so if a 14 year old wants to keep her baby, which most do, she would be denied any prenatal care. unless you were hoping to mandate 7th month abortions?

not a good plan

3. There's a difference between parental notification and parental consent. My personal view is that any girl under 15 who gets pregnant should have parental consent to get an abortion, and the parents of any girl between 15 and 18 who becomes pregnant should be notified of the girl's intent to have an abortion. After 18, she's on her own.

I agree in most part with this viewpoint. Not quite sure what the age of the child should be before parental consent was no longer required, but that is irrelevant to this particular tread. I support notification until the child becomes a legal adult, age 18.

[ confused look ] So are you saying that neither notification or consent are acceptable? :confused:
i suppose i am.

the consent thing makes me uneasy but since i never had a daughter i never had to think that one totally through.

which is why you will never have control over this issue

how do you suppose a pregnancy is going to come to the attention of the government so that IT can decide who is worthy of having a baby?

either a 14 year old goes to a doctor who is forced to report it, or she doesnt go to a doctor and she hides her pregnancy until it is so advance that one of her teachers finally notices and goes to the authorities (theres a country id love to live in)

so if a 14 year old wants to keep her baby, which most do, she would be denied any prenatal care. unless you were hoping to mandate 7th month abortions?



ashmoria....
it should be the doctors job to report the abortion to the parent...doctors work for not just the physical health of the patient in question but also the mental health...having an abortion is a distressing thing which can tear people to shreds...it should be law for ANY adult who knows that a child is having an aboriton or pregnant to report it to the girls parents...:mad:

An abortion stops a beating heart. A parent is more likely to uphold moral principles than a child, therefore the parents' authority should be what exercises the judgement.

An abortion stops a beating heart. A parent is more likely to uphold moral principles than a child, therefore the parents' authority should be what exercises the judgement.

the parent is most likely to hold this but...if the girl in question still wishes to have an abortion then she should still have the right but should do so with the full support of the carer..and counsellors....

ashmoria....
it should be the doctors job to report the abortion to the parent...doctors work for not just the physical health of the patient in question but also the mental health...having an abortion is a distressing thing which can tear people to shreds...it should be law for ANY adult who knows that a child is having an aboriton or pregnant to report it to the girls parents...:mad:
before or after she has it?

An abortion stops a beating heart. A parent is more likely to uphold moral principles than a child, therefore the parents' authority should be what exercises the judgement.
i think not

more parents know what a burden pregnancy and parenthood will have on their 14 year old daughter. they are much more likely to advocate abortion

the 14 year old has the romantic notion that being a mother is going to be GREAT. she gets money from the government PLUS someone who will love her no matter what.

not that i have statistics or care to look it up.

Isn't it just wrong to hide something like that from your parents though. I mean, the parents would probably find out sooner or later and they will be much more shocked and upset if you tell them 5 years after. However most parents will be supportive if they are told even if they aren't very happy.

I don't think it should be required by law that a girl needs to tell her parents about an abortion. Sure, I think that people probably should tell their parents if they're pregnant or if they're going to have an abortion, but in some cases I think it would make the situation worse.

For example, some families may shun their daughter if they find she's pregnant or had/is planning to have an abortion. They could mistreat her, kick her our, disown her, start verbally abusing her and in general make an already bad and emotional situation a lot worse than it could be. Or, if abortion is considered something that requires parental consent, they can do all of the above as well as forcing her to keep the baby.

However, I would say it's a very good idea to have girls under 18 receive counselling from an unbiased professional, and be encouraged to inform their parents. However, I think it should in the end be the girl's discretion as for whether or not to come out to her parents about the situation, as she is the one who knows her situation with her parents better than an outside party.

well this raises an interesting question, should abortion even be legal? i say no, as to me it is a form of murder.
I think we've beaten that on eot death,

on the subject of should we inform the parnets, I say no as many parents would certainly try to stop there child having an abortion/yell at her for having sex ect. Keep it confidential, if the child wants to tell the aprents let them but if the parents knew it could cause all sorts of problems.

Eutrusca, if your daughter/granddaughter became pregnent underage, you would want to know who by and why wouldn't you. Then you'd probably go and beat the shit out of the farther. I know my dad would, no doubt you'd also question your daughter about when/where/why/who and the rest. That would damage her even more.

And of course if you had to have parental conscent for abortion then many anti-abortioners, wouldn't let there child have the operation, they'd prefer her to ahve a child, atking the decision out of her hands.

Therefore, "underage" people are crazy (not having a firm grip on reality) and unintelligent (not having a firm grip on reality and maturity).

Just becuse a person is not mature does not make them crazy. Minors generaly do not have the life experience and maturity to make objective decisions in all cases. That is why parents have to be notified before a minor can receive medical treatment.

Therefore, parents play the only role in a child's life. Because the parents are there for no other reason than to get the child through life (and since the child lacks a "firm grip on either maturity or reality"), the parent is the only one capable of making decisions for the child.

Parents do not play the only role in a childs life but they play the major role. Their function is to raise and nurture the child, and when necessary make decisions for the child, until the child reaches the age of majority. It is the parents legal and moral obligation to make decisions for the child. No one else has that legal right under the law.


Therefore, you are conservative. Because you favor such a large penalty for such a small infraction, you are (evidently) conservative in your outlook.

Obviously, you don't know Eut very well.

All of these are perfectly logical conclusions based upon your statements.

No, you are wrong. You have made conclusions that are baised on your view of his statements, not on his statements.

a very good reason for parental notification is called stagatory rape (probably spelled wrong) by the most recent polling over 70% of underage girls getting an abortion are pregnant off of an overage guy. THat's illegal in any state. The fact that the girl is being pushed into aborting it by her illegal boyfriend, or is trying to cover it up so he doesn't get found out is exactly the reason why we need parently notification if not consent. At least then you get an authority figure involved who is capable of notifying the police if they believe the act that caused the pregnancy is illegal. but, if you don't like parental notification how about police notification. since the majority of under age girls getting abortions are being legally raped, maybe we should just skip the parents and go right to the police. I bet the 'pro-choice' out there would rather deal with parents than the police

Just becuse a person is not mature does not make them crazy. Minors generaly do not have the life experience and maturity to make objective decisions in all cases. That is why parents have to be notified before a minor can receive medical treatment.

nooooooo they dont have to be notified they have to CONSENT

if your 17.5 year old daughter wants breast implants, you have to sign legal forms showing you consent.

in some states parental consent is required for ear piercing! (i doubt its often enforced)

a very good reason for parental notification is called stagatory rape (probably spelled wrong) by the most recent polling over 70% of underage girls getting an abortion are pregnant off of an overage guy. THat's illegal in any state. The fact that the girl is being pushed into aborting it by her illegal boyfriend, or is trying to cover it up so he doesn't get found out is exactly the reason why we need parently notification if not consent. At least then you get an authority figure involved who is capable of notifying the police if they believe the act that caused the pregnancy is illegal. but, if you don't like parental notification how about police notification. since the majority of under age girls getting abortions are being legally raped, maybe we should just skip the parents and go right to the police. I bet the 'pro-choice' out there would rather deal with parents than the police
the abuse of underaged girls by men is a huge problem.

its pretty easy for a 30 year old loser to get a 16 year old in bed by making her think she is "special" enough to make him fall in love with her.

way too many teen pregnancies result from this manipulation

parental notification of abortion isnt going to affect it.

it will uncover the men who are doing it and give the law an opertunaty to stop them. Without notification, there is no way to stop the 30 yr old from bring the girl back in two months for her next abortion.

the 14 year old has the romantic notion that being a mother is going to be GREAT. she gets money from the government PLUS someone who will love her no matter what.

Then the reality of the feedings at 2 AM, changing diapers, crying, illness, having to get a job to provide the basics, etc. sets in and all of a sudden it isn't so GREAT any more. :rolleyes:

the parent should have the legal right to be informed but should not have the power to intervene if they think the child is wrong...it is still their free will to have the child or not but the girl needs a parents support to help her through such a hard time. bieng a mother is great if they have the right support...

as such if a girl chooses to have an abortion the parents have to abide by her decision but still do thier duty as a parent to help her through...

as for if aboriton should be legal or not...i think yes it should be but only if a suitable adult has been notified (hence the parent or if they are over 18 a counsellor)

it will uncover the men who are doing it and give the law an opertunaty to stop them. Without notification, there is no way to stop the 30 yr old from bring the girl back in two months for her next abortion.

Only if you can get the girl to admit who her lover is.

Yes, parents should be notified, with a couple of exceptions.

First, abortion is a medical procedure. Parents are required to give consent for other medical procedures, so I don't see why this one should be treated any differently. Personal autonomy or not, minors cannot on their own consent to receiving prescription medications or to surgical procedures.

However, if, for some reason, an emergency abortion is deemed medically necessary to protect the life of the mother, then I don't think parental consent should be required. (But I suspect the topic is not aimed at this kind of situation.)

Finally, there should be some alternative (i.e., judicial bypass) for girls with neglectful, abusive, or other "unfit" parents. These girls might legitimately fear some form of retaliation from their parents for even asking to abort, let alone actually doing so.

This is exactly the issue that the Supreme Court is considering in this case. The problem is not that the law requires parental notification, that's perfectly constitutional. The question is if requiring notification without any bipass for extreme circumstances is acceptable. You've hit the nail on the head.

p.s., my apologies if this has already been said, i haven't finished reading the whole thread yet

nooooooo they dont have to be notified they have to CONSENT

if your 17.5 year old daughter wants breast implants, you have to sign legal forms showing you consent.

in some states parental consent is required for ear piercing! (i doubt its often enforced)

Thank you, I stand corrected. There is a difference between notification and concent, a big one. Thanks for pointing that our to me.

it will uncover the men who are doing it and give the law an opertunaty to stop them. Without notification, there is no way to stop the 30 yr old from bring the girl back in two months for her next abortion.
if parents cant be bothered to notice that their daughter is dating soemone way too old for her, they probably wouldnt be bothered to prosecute him afterwards

there was a case this year in albuquerque where a 26 year old teacher got a 16 year old student pregnant. they ran off to vegas last new years and got married.

her mother thought it was great. he was a good catch in the mothers mind.

Thank you, I stand corrected. There is a difference between notification and concent, a big one. Thanks for pointing that our to me.
thats what freaks people out eh? their daughter cant get a tattoo on her butt without their consent but she can get an abortion, no problem.

the parent should have the legal right to be informed but should not have the power to intervene if they think the child is wrong...it is still their free will to have the child or not but the girl needs a parents support to help her through such a hard time. bieng a mother is great if they have the right support...

as such if a girl chooses to have an abortion the parents have to abide by her decision but still do thier duty as a parent to help her through...

as for if aboriton should be legal or not...i think yes it should be but only if a suitable adult has been notified (hence the parent or if they are over 18 a counsellor)

The thing about telling the parents, but it being the girl's choice in the end is that once informed, the parents can threaten and guilt the girl into keeping the baby. As emotionally trying as getting an abortion might be, being black-mailed into giving birth to and keeping an unwanted child would be much worse.

Some parents may be supportive and everything, but it's likely that a child of supportive parents would tell them without the prompting of the law, or upon the prompting of a counsellor.

if parents cant be bothered to notice that their daughter is dating soemone way too old for her, they probably wouldnt be bothered to prosecute him afterwards

.
I wouldn't say that, besides there plenty of ways to keep your bf/gf away from your parents notice!

In my opinion if an under-sixteen gets pregnant she should have to talk to a specialist counsellor before the abortion. The counsellor should then make the decision as to whether it is appropriate to tell the parents (maturity of the girl, circumstances etc.) and also take any appropriate action (in the case of statatory rape etc.). If the counsellor decides that she is mature enough to make the decision on her own then she should have to take a class on contraception so as to make sure it doesn't happen again.

If an under-sixteen wants to get a second abortion then the parents definately have to know because there's obviously a problem.

I don't think so. Each person should have the ability to do whatever they want to their own bodies without anyone else knowing. If someone wants to cut themselves in private, to do drugs in private, or to have an abortion in private, then I believe that person should have that right. As long as they're not directly hurting anyone else with their actions (such as suicide bombing), I believe that person has both the right to privacy and the right to do what they wish with their own body.


Oh brother! For underaged children? So in your view, a 10 year old girl can have an abortion and an 8 year old boy can smoke pot? Hmmm..... then how about having a 4 year old getting mad and running away from home, should the parents care? Let the bumb get a job, or beg or do whatever they please! Since according to you, the parents have no rights or responsobilities? :rolleyes:

Get serious. There are always exceptions to any rule, including the need for parental notification. :rolleyes:


Absolutely!

In my opinion if an under-sixteen gets pregnant she should have to talk to a specialist counsellor before the abortion. The counsellor should then make the decision as to whether it is appropriate to tell the parents (maturity of the girl, circumstances etc.) and also take any appropriate action (in the case of statatory rape etc.). If the counsellor decides that she is mature enough to make the decision on her own then she should have to take a class on contraception so as to make sure it doesn't happen again.

If an under-sixteen wants to get a second abortion then the parents definately have to know because there's obviously a problem.

I agree with pretty much everything here.

Did anyone see last week's episode of Law and Order: Special Victim's Unit?

The young girl in that episode was pregnant, her father had thrown her older sister out of the house for getting pregnant, she couldn't get an abortion because she couldn't tell her father about it without getting kicked out, she ended up going to New York to try to get an abortion, but happened upon a fake clinic that mislead her into believing she couldn't have an abortion until she ended up pregnant past the 24 week mark and then she and her boyfriend killed the fetus by beating her stomach with a lamp...

Now, yeah, it is fictional, however, there was a similar case a while back (minus the trip to New York and the fake clinic) where some desperate young teenagers beat the girl's stomach until she miscarried because they couldn't tell their parents for whatever reason. It's not always embarassment. Some parents are abusive, zealots or generally cruel to their children. A girl who is in a situation where she finds herself pregnant has to grow up awfully fast, whether she's 12 or 17, she is the one who will know what the best thing for her in that situation is. Generally it is an abortion, especially with younger teens, the side effects of pregnancy at such a young age are pretty bad and the death rate for young teens during delivery is much higher than a more developped woman. Of course, the clinic should provide birth control counselling to these young girls to prevent them from being in a similar situation down the road.

I agree with pretty much everything here.

I based part of it on the NHS system for prescribing contraception, the doctor doesn't have to notify the parents if he thinks that the patient is mature enough to use them properly.

Nope. It'd be damn polite to tell the parents, but we can't force politness on people.
Polite?
How does politeness factor into telling one's parents about one's reproductive status? It's not their business. Unless it's something extreme like a girl who began mensturation at 8 and is pregnant at 9... in which case there's likely some sort of abuse there.

Quite frankly, I would not want my daughter to do something this harmful, psychologically damaging, major and in my view wrong, without my knowing. Children should not have total autonomy.
Actually, studies have shown that the most common emotions women feel after an abortion are "relief" and "happiness" it is generally the women who go through unwanted pregnancies who end up psychologically damaged.

I based part of it on the NHS system for prescribing contraception, the doctor doesn't have to notify the parents if he thinks that the patient is mature enough to use them properly.

It's a good system, seeing as every individual and their situation is different.

Did anyone see last week's episode of Law and Order: Special Victim's Unit?

The young girl in that episode was pregnant, her father had thrown her older sister out of the house for getting pregnant, she couldn't get an abortion because she couldn't tell her father about it without getting kicked out, she ended up going to New York to try to get an abortion, but happened upon a fake clinic that mislead her into believing she couldn't have an abortion until she ended up pregnant past the 24 week mark and then she and her boyfriend killed the fetus by beating her stomach with a lamp...

Now, yeah, it is fictional, however, there was a similar case a while back (minus the trip to New York and the fake clinic) where some desperate young teenagers beat the girl's stomach until she miscarried because they couldn't tell their parents for whatever reason. It's not always embarassment. Some parents are abusive, zealots or generally cruel to their children. A girl who is in a situation where she finds herself pregnant has to grow up awfully fast, whether she's 12 or 17, she is the one who will know what the best thing for her in that situation is. Generally it is an abortion, especially with younger teens, the side effects of pregnancy at such a young age are pretty bad and the death rate for young teens during delivery is much higher than a more developped woman. Of course, the clinic should provide birth control counselling to these young girls to prevent them from being in a similar situation down the road.
oh i cant watch law and order. the husband has it on sometimes when i walk into the room (its on pretty much 24/7) and i always end up ranting at the TV within a few minutes.

why dont they have the NYC cops just wear SS uniforms and get it over with ?

anyway

thats why the supreme court found that without a judicial bypass parental notification laws are unconstitutional.

i just find them to be a bad way to delay a girl from getting the earliest abortion possible.

Actually, studies have shown that the most common emotions women feel after an abortion are "relief" and "happiness" it is generally the women who go through unwanted pregnancies who end up psychologically damaged.

Studies have also shown that studies are inaccurate and unreliable. Figure out the truth about studies for yourself.

Studies have also shown that studies are inaccurate and unreliable. Figure out the truth about studies for yourself.
Ok, well, all the girls I've known who have had abortions felt relief and happiness for their decision. If I was in such a situation, I could see myself feeling likewise.

First, abortion is a medical procedure. Parents are required to give consent for other medical procedures, so I don't see why this one should be treated any differently. Personal autonomy or not, minors cannot on their own consent to receiving prescription medications or to surgical procedures.
That's a whole other can of worms there, as far as can parents deny their children medical treatment. Parents have had their children taken away from them for denying treatment for life-threatening conditions and pregnancy is indeed a life-threatening condition, even moreso for teenage mothers. Granted abortion is not without risks either, but if you go by the quick and dirty statistics "...a woman's risk of death in carrying a pregnancy to term is ten times greater than the risk of death with an abortion."refrence (http://www.womenscommunitymedicalclinic.com/risks7.html)


how do you suppose a pregnancy is going to come to the attention of the government so that IT can decide who is worthy of having a baby?

either a 14 year old goes to a doctor who is forced to report it, or she doesnt go to a doctor and she hides her pregnancy until it is so advance that one of her teachers finally notices and goes to the authorities (theres a country id love to live in)


Well, you may already live in such a country. Teachers are responsible for reporting child abuse. Statutory rape I would think qualifies as child abuse, therefore a teacher would be obliged to report it.

Ok, well, all the girls I've known who have had abortions felt relief and happiness for their decision. If I was in such a situation, I could see myself feeling likewise.

How long has it been since their abortion?

How long has it been since their abortion?
Three years almost.

Well, you may already live in such a country. Teachers are responsible for reporting child abuse. Statutory rape I would think qualifies as child abuse, therefore a teacher would be obliged to report it.

i find there to be a big difference between teachers being required to report suspected child abuse and requiring teachers to turn in pregnant girls so they can be forced to have an abortion.

Three years almost.

Know anyone who did not have an abortion?

The thing about telling the parents, but it being the girl's choice in the end is that once informed, the parents can threaten and guilt the girl into keeping the baby. As emotionally trying as getting an abortion might be, being black-mailed into giving birth to and keeping an unwanted child would be much worse.


if a counsellor or any other adult knows that a child is bieng bullied into giving birth to the child...the parents will be sued and locked up...
though to ensure the childs safety once notified a doctor should arrange for managed accomadation with a trained midwifeso as all visits are registered and recorded...
this should be the case only for girls whose parents are either mentally unstable or (once seen a counseller) known to have strong opinions against such an action.

Now, yeah, it is fictional, however, there was a similar case a while back (minus the trip to New York and the fake clinic) where some desperate young teenagers beat the girl's stomach until she miscarried because they couldn't tell their parents for whatever reason. It's not always embarassment. Some parents are abusive, zealots or generally cruel to their children. A girl who is in a situation where she finds herself pregnant has to grow up awfully fast, whether she's 12 or 17, she is the one who will know what the best thing for her in that situation is. Generally it is an abortion, especially with younger teens, the side effects of pregnancy at such a young age are pretty bad and the death rate for young teens during delivery is much higher than a more developped woman. Of course, the clinic should provide birth control counselling to these young girls to prevent them from being in a similar situation down the road.

Do you honestly believe that a 12-year old girl would know what the best thing for her situation is? Do you think she has considered the different consequences of her alternative choices?

And even if some parents might be abusive, zealots or generally cruel to their children I think that the vast majority is not, but would rather be a crucial support for their children in a time of need.

Know anyone who did not have an abortion?
One girl... her pregnancy was unplanned, but she wanted to be pregnant so she would force her boyfriend to stay with her. She seemed happy being pregnant, as she got a lot of attention, but after the kid was born she seemed less than thrilled.

One girl... her pregnancy was unplanned, but she wanted to be pregnant so she would force her boyfriend to stay with her. She seemed happy being pregnant, as she got a lot of attention, but after the kid was born she seemed less than thrilled.

How less than thrilled?

Do you honestly believe that a 12-year old girl would know what the best thing for her situation is? Do you think she has considered the different consequences of her alternative choices?

And even if some parents might be abusive, zealots or generally cruel to their children I think that the vast majority is not, but would rather be a crucial support for their children in a time of need.
Yes, and abortion clinics should provide counsellors (optional, of course) for women and girls to talk to before and anytime after the procedure in case she has nobody she can trust to talk to about it.

Furthermore, given the risks associated with 12 year olds being pregnant, an abortion is probably be best option regardless.

if a counsellor or any other adult knows that a child is bieng bullied into giving birth to the child...the parents will be sued and locked up...
though to ensure the childs safety once notified a doctor should arrange for managed accomadation with a trained midwifeso as all visits are registered and recorded...
this should be the case only for girls whose parents are either mentally unstable or (once seen a counseller) known to have strong opinions against such an action.

Or, the girl could see a counsellor first who can evaluate the situation, and save her from suffering the emotional anguish of the situation going bad.

How less than thrilled?
She didn't seem to like it when people paid attention to the kid.

She didn't seem to like it when people paid attention to the kid.

What a stupid person.

What a stupid person.
I know.
I feel sorry for the kid. The dad's a good guy though, so maybe he'll rub off on the kid.

Heh, and they say that the women who have abortions are selfish... :rolleyes:

i find there to be a big difference between teachers being required to report suspected child abuse and requiring teachers to turn in pregnant girls so they can be forced to have an abortion.

Let's look at both sides then, shall we?

Teacher reports pregnant teen and teenager has abortion. Teenager suffers emotional trauma, blames the teacher for being a snitch, and goes on with life.

Teacher does nothing and teenager gives birth. Teenager suffers emotional trauma, becomes physically, socially, and economically disadvantaged, and goes on to blame herself for making such a decision.

One would think military academies were enough to show that it's the "code of silence" crap that gets people hurt.

I believe in natural rights, so as soon as they're born they should get these rights. But that's just my personal opinion.
What is the basis for natural rights, and how does the concept harmonise with the reality of society?

Plenty of animals let their children do as they wish. They seem pretty sucessful as far as survival goes.
And you know nothing about biology! Some species require a longer time than others to reach maturity. Humans are among the longest of all animals.

Also note that the child death rate of most of these animals is greater than among humans.

I think it would be interesting to see if the age of those voting in this sort of poll correlates with their choice of either "yes" or "no." And whether they are parents or not would be even more illuminating. :D
I don't think that there would be much correlation. Let's take four old NS posters: Eutrusca, Celtlund, Sierra STHP, and Sinuhue. Now these people are all parents yet I suspect the latter two would vote no.

I don't see the basis for your argument Eutrusca. It seems to be nothing more than "I'm a parent so this should be the law", which is not a particularly strong appeal to authority. It is like saying that just because your daughters should notify you, then it should be law. I hope you did a better job of raising them than would require government intervention. (i.e. they should be able to tell you themselves.)

Yes, and abortion clinics should provide counsellors (optional, of course) for women and girls to talk to before and anytime after the procedure in case she has nobody she can trust to talk to about it.

Ok. I disagree. I think a 12-year old is too young and immature to make these kind of decisions, and that the parents should be involved. Especially considering that the child would be (in most nations and most states in the US) below the age of consent.

Ok. I disagree. I think a 12-year old is too young and immature to make these kind of decisions, and that the parents should be involved. Especially considering that the child would be (in most nations and most states in the US) below the age of consent.
And if she already knows her parents will throw her out of the house for having premarital sex?

And if she already knows her parents will throw her out of the house for having premarital sex?

What's a 12-year old doing having sex?

Ok, well, all the girls I've known who have had abortions felt relief and happiness for their decision. If I was in such a situation, I could see myself feeling likewise.

1. And how many girls is that?
2. How will they feel in 5, 10, or 15 years?

What's a 12-year old doing having sex?
Some of them do.

That's a whole other can of worms there, as far as can parents deny their children medical treatment. Parents have had their children taken away from them for denying treatment for life-threatening conditions and pregnancy is indeed a life-threatening condition, even moreso for teenage mothers.

The whole point of this thread is parental notification/concent.

1. And how many girls is that?
2. How will they feel in 5, 10, or 15 years?
1. 4.
2. I can't predict the future, now can I?

Some of them do.

If they're having sex at that age, their parents will probably have been deemed unfit.

If they're having sex at that age, their parents will probably have been deemed unfit.
*shrugs*
I get the feeling that the number of abortions preformed on 12 year olds is minimal and that the number of 12 year olds having sex (in the western world at least) is also rather small as well.

And if your'e deeming these parents unfit, then why should the kid have to notify them of an abortion?

I know.
I feel sorry for the kid. The dad's a good guy though, so maybe he'll rub off on the kid.

Heh, and they say that the women who have abortions are selfish... :rolleyes:

To move back toward the subject, how did the parents of these young women feel about them having/not having an abortion, or were these women over 18 years old?

*shrugs*
I get the feeling that the number of abortions preformed on 12 year olds is minimal and that the number of 12 year olds having sex (in the western world at least) is also rather small as well.

And if your'e deeming these parents unfit, then why should the kid have to notify them of an abortion?

They'll most likely have someone else taking care of them, as it's not that wise to keep children around those parents.

To move back toward the subject, how did the parents of these young women feel about them having/not having an abortion, or were these women over 18 years old?
All but one was over 18, I never asked how her parents felt about it. I'm not sure if she told them.

They'll most likely have someone else taking care of them, as it's not that wise to keep children around those parents.
And the kid should have to notify these new people?

1. 4.
2. I can't predict the future, now can I?

1. So you know a "few" young women who have had an abortion, not a lot.
2. And neither can they, they might regret what they have done later in life but then again they may not.

2. And neither can they, they might regret what they have done later in life but then again they may not.
So what business is it of yours whether or not they have regrets?

As a lifeguard, I have gone over what to do in situations of concent. To avoid getting in trouble in a sue-happy community, I must ask concent from the parent or legal guardian, if available. Now I read some remarks talking about pregnancy as a life-threatening situation. Then they would say they need to treat it and can without parental concent. this is not the case. pregnancy does not threaten the life at the point being. I mean driving a car is life-threatening also. but only at the point of a crash. yet, does this mean that children should be able to drive a car at any age, without any concent? no it doesn't. Pregnancy does not threaten a life untill later. during this time it is by all means possible to contact a parent. The parent is always available over such a large period of time. Therefore the parent must be notified and give concent.

All but one was over 18, I never asked how her parents felt about it. I'm not sure if she told them.

So, only one was under 18. Were her parents notified or did they give concent to her having an abortion? Did she even tell them she was pregnant?

And the kid should have to notify these new people?

Yes, as you never know how the parents affected them.

1. So you know a "few" young women who have had an abortion, not a lot.
2. And neither can they, they might regret what they have done later in life but then again they may not.
1. Yeah, I'm 22, not many women my age have had abortions, what's your point? I've read many studies that have looked at many women for years after their abortions as well, but according to another poster, studies are insufficient and personal experience is somehow better.
2. And your point being? Many people regret many things. People regret not going to university, they regret not asking somebody out, they regret moving to another city... should we make it illegal for people to do anything they could possibly regret? Furthermore, in these studies I mentioned, most women who grow to regret their decisions do so because of the social stigma against their decision.
Personally, I don't see the point in regretting anything, with any decision, given the person you were at the time you made the decision, that is the best decision you could have made and every decision is instrumental to making who you are now.

So, only one was under 18. Were her parents notified or did they give concent to her having an abortion? Did she even tell them she was pregnant?
Like I said, I don't know if she told them. She doesn't talk about it too much except to say that she's happy with her decision and that the people who were picketing the clinc screaming at her and telling her she was a whore were assholes.

As a lifeguard, I have gone over what to do in situations of concent. To avoid getting in trouble in a sue-happy community, I must ask concent from the parent or legal guardian, if available. Now I read some remarks talking about pregnancy as a life-threatening situation. Then they would say they need to treat it and can without parental concent. this is not the case. pregnancy does not threaten the life at the point being. I mean driving a car is life-threatening also. but only at the point of a crash. yet, does this mean that children should be able to drive a car at any age, without any concent? no it doesn't. Pregnancy does not threaten a life untill later. during this time it is by all means possible to contact a parent. The parent is always available over such a large period of time. Therefore the parent must be notified and give concent.

Something could happen during the pregnancy that would be an emergency where the mother’s life could be in danger if the pregnancy were not immediately terminated. Possibly an automobile accident causing internal bleeding or something like that. It would be a life-threatening situation and parental notification/consent might not be possible. I do think there should be something in the law that would cause the notification/consent to be waved in a situation like that.

1. Yeah, I'm 22, not many women my age have had abortions, what's your point? I've read many studies that have looked at many women for years after their abortions as well, but according to another poster, studies are insufficient and personal experience is somehow better.


No, I just pointed out that the information in studies are not that reliable.

Something could happen during the pregnancy that would be an emergency where the mother’s life could be in danger if the pregnancy were not immediately terminated. Possibly an automobile accident causing internal bleeding or something like that. It would be a life-threatening situation and parental notification/consent might not be possible. I do think there should be something in the law that would cause the notification/consent to be waved in a situation like that.
I agree

Okay, let's say anyone under 15 needs to notify their parents but no concent is needed, anyone over that doesn't have to...

And if she already knows her parents will throw her out of the house for having premarital sex?

Well, this would seem to me to be a rare example, and an indication of other problems within the family. Maybe this case should fall under an exception to "protect the minor's health", like the one mentioned in the articles at the beginning of the thread, if there are any well-founded reasons for her fears. But it would be an extreme exception to the principal rule.

So I still believe that the parents should be notified, as I believe it in general would be better for the children.

No, I just pointed out that the information in studies are not that reliable.
I don't really get the basis for this statement either. There are a number of studies that are well done and when different studies corroborate each other, they can be taken on as more reliable.
You also asked whether I personally knew anyone who had an abortion after saying that studies weren't accurate.

Personally, I don't see the point in regretting anything, with any decision, given the person you were at the time you made the decision, that is the best decision you could have made and every decision is instrumental to making who you are now.


I like that. A very good philosophy.

As to the person who told you studies are not sufficient, they are wrong. Scientifically conducted studies are an excellent source of information.

While personal experience is good, it tends to be very limited and you can not draw any conclusions of the general population from it. That’s what I thought you were trying to do. Sorry.

I don't really get the basis for this statement either. There are a number of studies that are well done and when different studies corroborate each other, they can be taken on as more reliable.

Still, studies in general suffer from everything from bias to improper sampling, and should not be relied upon too heavily.

Okay, let's say anyone under 15 needs to notify their parents but no concent is needed, anyone over that doesn't have to...

Are the parents of anyone over 15 but under 18 still legally responsible for their child?

Still, studies in general suffer from everything from bias to improper sampling, and should not be relied upon too heavily.
Then what do you propose relying on in discussions such as this? There's no mathematical formula for guilt or regret.

Still, studies in general suffer from everything from bias to improper sampling, and should not be relied upon too heavily.

A properly conducted scientific study will not suffer from those problems.

Now I read some remarks talking about pregnancy as a life-threatening situation. Then they would say they need to treat it and can without parental concent. this is not the case. pregnancy does not threaten the life at the point being. I mean driving a car is life-threatening also. but only at the point of a crash. yet, does this mean that children should be able to drive a car at any age, without any concent? no it doesn't. Pregnancy does not threaten a life untill later. during this time it is by all means possible to contact a parent. The parent is always available over such a large period of time. Therefore the parent must be notified and give concent.
Disagreed. There are a couple of conditions I can think of that can threaten life while pregnant, namely gestational diabetes and eclampsia.

Disagreed. There are a couple of conditions I can think of that can threaten life while pregnant, namely gestational diabetes and eclampsia.
There are even more complications with younger teenagers being pregnant too.

Disagreed. There are a couple of conditions I can think of that can threaten life while pregnant, namely gestational diabetes and eclampsia.
In those cases, they would be known, therefore would proceed without concent.

Then what do you propose relying on in discussions such as this? There's no mathematical formula for guilt or regret.

Include evidence besides studies, such as logic.

There are even more complications with younger teenagers being pregnant too.
Would theses threaten a life right at the moment, as in death. or would there be ample time to contact a parent for concent? my point being, if there is time to gain the parents concent, then they should use that time to contact the parents.

Include evidence besides studies, such as logic.
...well, aside from wondering how emotions are logical all of a sudden...

It should be obvious from a logical point of view that a woman who aborts an unwanted pregnancy would be better off than a woman who keeps one against her wishes. I mean, if a woman can't afford a kid, can't continue her education and sacrifices her future and life to take care of a kid she didn't ask for and didn't want in the first place, then she's going to be unhappy. But if by aborting the embryo, she can continue her eductation and move on with her life, then she will be happier. That would be the logical reasoning for you.

Include evidence besides studies, such as logic.

Logic is not evidence. :(

Would theses threaten a life right at the moment, as in death. or would there be ample time to contact a parent for concent? my point being, if there is time to gain the parents concent, then they should use that time to contact the parents.
It depends. If a kid has been hiding a pregnancy and then collapses while away from home and is rushed to the hospital... then the parents might not know a damn thing.

One more thing: It's consent*. That's been bothering me for the past couple posts.

Logic is not evidence. :(
That too.

...well, aside from wondering how emotions are logical all of a sudden...

It should be obvious from a logical point of view that a woman who aborts an unwanted pregnancy would be better off than a woman who keeps one against her wishes. I mean, if a woman can't afford a kid, can't continue her education and sacrifices her future and life to take care of a kid she didn't ask for and didn't want in the first place, then she's going to be unhappy. But if by aborting the embryo, she can continue her eductation and move on with her life, then she will be happier. That would be the logical reasoning for you.

Very good.

Oh, there is a third choice. It's called adoption.

Include evidence besides studies, such as logic.

Buh? Logic? Well... how about: Girl doesn't want baby, she doesn't think she can handle in and she's worried about being shunned by friends and family. She gets an abortion and is relieved of the stress and worry about taking care of it and what people would think about her.

Very good.

Oh, there is a third choice. It's called adoption.
And if she has a scholarship that means she can't take a year off her education? Or if she can't afford to take a year out of working? Or if she doesn't want to risk her health and life for a pregnancy she doesn't want to begin with?
Furthermore, there's the satisfaction gained by assuming control of one's life and reproductive capabilities.

That too.

Only if what your logic arrives at has nothing to do with the argument or any accepted facts.

Only if what your logic arrives at has nothing to do with the argument or any accepted facts.
Well, no, it isn't evidence anyways. You have to gather evidence in some what before you can make logical inferences about it.

Well, no, it isn't evidence anyways. You have to gather evidence in some what before you can make logical inferences about it.

Alright, so I mis-whatever. The point is that studies are not the only evidence, and can be used if sufficently backed up by reliable evidence.

How can you have an age limit on these things? A person who is 14 years and 364 days old is mentally incapable of making a decision about their own body, whereas a 15 year old has all the maturity they will ever need to make their decision? Give the person the confidentiality which is given to all other patients. The doctor should encourage a child to tell the parents but the final say really should be down to the child and not the government. I think if there is a good relationship between the child and the parents then the child will probably tell the parents, if there is not a good relationship then I doubt telling them will make the situation any better.
Also, if the parents are strict christians and are totally against abortion, they could force the child to have the baby? This is insane, you'd get girls dangerously trying to force a miscarriage on themselves.
If abortion was made illegal then you'd get backstreet, unregulated operations performed by people who may or may not be qualified.

Please if you don't believe in abortions, then don't have one yourself, but don't make everyone else follow your way by law... everyone has different views of right or wrong.

Also, for those concerned about women who regret abortions, what about women who regret giving children up for adoption? There are women who do that too.

Also, for those concerned about women who regret abortions, what about women who regret giving children up for adoption? There are women who do that too.

The child recieves an opprotunity for a good life.

How can you have an age limit on these things? A person who is 14 years and 364 days old is mentally incapable of making a decision about their own body, whereas a 15 year old has all the maturity they will ever need to make their decision? Give the person the confidentiality which is given to all other patients. The doctor should encourage a child to tell the parents but the final say really should be down to the child and not the government. I think if there is a good relationship between the child and the parents then the child will probably tell the parents, if there is not a good relationship then I doubt telling them will make the situation any better.
Also, if the parents are strict christians and are totally against abortion, they could force the child to have the baby? This is insane, you'd get girls dangerously trying to force a miscarriage on themselves.
If abortion was made illegal then you'd get backstreet, unregulated operations performed by people who may or may not be qualified.

Please if you don't believe in abortions, then don't have one yourself, but don't make everyone else follow your way by law... everyone has different views of right or wrong.
It matters not if any other parent doesn't give a shit about their child. That's between them, their child and the law. This is one of those few issues over which I would go to war if it involved any of my children or grandchildren.

The "government" doesn't give a shit about either me or my child.

The fact that there is no valid way to measure "maturity" leads us to set somewhat arbitrary ages at which point everyone is expected to be "mature." That some are not speaks volumes about the lack of effective parenting. Personally, I would prefer to shoot some parents for their obvious lack of concern about the children they have brought into the world, but that's another thread.

The child recieves an opprotunity for a good life.
Or it ends up in foster care going from home to home... and that wasn't the question.
A woman's later regrets was used by Celtuland to say abortion was a bad idea and then s/he promoted the notion that a woman should give a kid up for adoption, when women often regret that decision too.

Because parents have an remarkably strong position from which to coerce their children, it is unacceptable for a girl to be forced to notify her parents about an abortion.

A parent's right to know things about and control his or her child does not outweigh the right to choose whether or not to carry a pregnancy.

Not an issue here. Minors have a right to privacy, and abortions for teens, unless there is some crime involved, are confidential. The parents don't have to know if the girl doesn't want them to.

Or it ends up in foster care going from home to home... and that wasn't the question.
A woman's later regrets was used by Celtuland to say abortion was a bad idea and then s/he promoted the notion that a woman should give a kid up for adoption, when women often regret that decision too.

I read it as you asking how the two things were different.

Not an issue here. Minors have a right to privacy, and abortions for teens, unless there is some crime involved, are confidential. The parents don't have to know if the girl doesn't want them to.

According to the debated law mentioned here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176780,00.html), parents in New Hampshire would have to be notified before the child could have an abortion.

Nearly all states have laws requiring some kind of parental involvement when minors have abortions. According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit group that researches reproductive health issues, 21 states require parental consent and 13 require parental notification. Nine other states, including New Hampshire, have laws that aren't in effect because they've been blocked by court orders.

In its last major abortion decision, the Supreme Court ruled in 2000 that state abortion laws must provide an exception to protect a girl's health in case her parents don't agree.

According to the debated law mentioned here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176780,00.html), parents in New Hampshire would have to be notified before the child could have an abortion.

"Not an issue here."

"Not an issue here."

Sorry, I apparently misunderstood you. :(

. Minors have a right to privacy, and abortions for teens, unless there is some crime involved, are confidential. The parents don't have to know if the girl doesn't want them to.


nothing further needs said

You people are talking as if the question were "should it be the parents' decision if the daughter can have an abortion?" instead of "should the parents be notified before the daughter has an abortion?" I personally don't think anyone should be allowed to have an abortion. (The doctors tried very hard to get my mother to abort me. My mother has a heart condition. I am glad my mother agrees with me or I wouldn't be here to agree or not.) But I don't think that's very realistic in today's society.

What I do think is that a child is a child... and parents make tons of decisions for them. By the time the child is old enough to get pregnant, either they need to emancipate themselves and remove their parents' responsiblity, or they need to have the parents informed before their child makes the decision.

Parents are informed and have to sign permission slips for everything from Tylenol to field trips. You'd never object to them having to sign for the girl having a tumor removed, but having a baby removed, that's HER choice, right? So the baby doesn't even rate as high as a tumor? It's the girl's body, not her parent's body? So why do they have to sign for a Tylenol? It IS her body, but they are responsible for her, and in your view, how is abortion any different?

Or it ends up in foster care going from home to home... and that wasn't the question.
A woman's later regrets was used by Celtuland to say abortion was a bad idea and then s/he promoted the notion that a woman should give a kid up for adoption, when women often regret that decision too.

No I did not say abortion was a bad idea because a woman might regret it later. I asked the question, without making any value judgements, if any of them regreted it later. Also, I did not promote the idea of adoption because a woman may later regret abortion. I presented adoption as an alternative to abortion or keeping the child.

Of course there are women who have regreted giving their child up for adoption. So what is your point?

Not only should parental notification be mandatory, criminal notification and DNA testing to determine the father of every abortion performed on an underage girl should be mandatory as well (to see what if any criminal abuse or statutory rape issues might be involved).

The court should be involved every single time (to remove any possible chance via pressure applied on the girl by anyone - be it teacher, relative, boyfriend whatever, to 'hide' their identity).

It’s not ‘privacy’ when an adult is pressuring a minor to keep a secret via an anonymous abortion, it’s aiding and abetting a crime.

Of course there are women who have regreted giving their child up for adoption. So what is your point?
That people make lots of decisions they regret later and that doesn't necessarily make them the wrong decisions.

It’s not ‘privacy’ when an adult is pressuring a minor to keep a secret via an anonymous abortion, it’s aiding and abetting a crime.
And if another minor is the father, then it's not really a crime, is it?

I agree with Qwystyria, a lot of you are saying stuff like, "What if the parent says no?" when the question is about parental NOTIFICATION, not parental consent. If the law only makes notification mandatory, then the parent can't say no, but they CAN deal with it later.

I agree with Qwystyria, a lot of you are saying stuff like, "What if the parent says no?" when the question is about parental NOTIFICATION, not parental consent. If the law only makes notification mandatory, then the parent can't say no, but they CAN deal with it later.
And if the parent's method of dealing with it involves throwing the kid out of the house or beating them? If a kid doesn't tell their parents, usually there's a reason.

That people make lots of decisions they regret later and that doesn't necessarily make them the wrong decisions.

You are correct. A person usually makes a decision based on the information they have at the time which doesn't make it a wrong decision.

And if another minor is the father, then it's not really a crime, is it?

Then they'll know and no one will be prosecuted, will they? But then they'll know that no crimes were involved and no one is ‘raping a minor,’ wont they?

There have been cases where teenagers have fought (and won) the right of emancipation from their parents in order to have (or refuse) certain medical procedures, such as cancer treatments. How would this effect parental right to notification of intent to abort? Should a teenager have the right to emancipation in order to have an abortion? Would a simple notification of intent to emancipate allow the young woman to have an abortion, given the limited time she has to have the procedure?

There are many teenagers under the age of 18 who do not reside with parents or guardians, and do not receive financial help from them. How does this effect a parent's right to notification of intent to abort?

There are many teenagers under the age of 18 who do not reside with their parents or guardians (whose parents or guardians may live in another community or even outside of the country, and have just sent their kids to school in the US) but do receive financial support from their family. How might this effect a parent's right to notification of intent to abort?

And if the parent's method of dealing with it involves throwing the kid out of the house or beating them? If a kid doesn't tell their parents, usually there's a reason.

It could be the reasons you mention, although the fear can be completely unfounded. It can also be other reasons, like simple embarrassment.

What I'm saying is, it is not necessarily a good reason why they don't want their parents to know. But there could perhaps be made exeptions for the most extreme situations - if the child claims that it will suffer seriously damaging consequences if her parents are notified, one will have to evaluate the merits of that claim in each individual case.

That people make lots of decisions they regret later and that doesn't necessarily make them the wrong decisions.
[ scraches head, walks away muttering to himself in a state of total perplexity ] :confused:

Because parents have an remarkably strong position from which to coerce their children, it is unacceptable for a girl to be forced to notify her parents about an abortion.

A parent's right to know things about and control his or her child does not outweigh the right to choose whether or not to carry a pregnancy.
"Coerce" is a pejorative and indicates a lack of trust. I'm sorry if you don't ( didn't? ) trust your own parents, but that's not the issue here. The issue is that a person under 18 is still legally ( as well as usually in most other ways ) a child. They do not ( again, usually ) have sufficient maturity to make such a decision on her own. Again I will state that I would never tolerate a law which so negated and warped the relationship between my children and me.

This issue reminds me of the long running debate in the Dear Abby column as to whether toilet paper should be hung facing in or facing out. What you believe depends on your world view. Are aesthetics more important to you than utility? Who can say which value system is more correct?

But the issue of notification must be decided on Constitutional grounds. If your opinion differs from the dictates of the Constitution your only alternative is to change the Constitution.

An issue like this underlines the value of having Supreme Court justices who abide by the Constitution and not by their world view. Otherwise one day they may very well tell us which way to hang our toilet paper.

Very good.

Oh, there is a third choice. It's called adoption.
Of course. It's risking the life of a teenage mother to uphold one's sense of decency. By the same kind of logic, you could volunteer your child for use as bait to lure a murderous pedophile out of hiding.

Putting one's self in harm's way for the sake of others is considered noble. Putting someone else, especially children, in harm's way for the sake of others is sick.

If a child needs parental permission to undergo a tattoo or medical procedures, why shouldn't they need to be informed about their daughter having an abortion?

If a person needs the state's permission in the form of a driver's license to drive, why shouldn't they need the state's premission to have sex?

Not only should parental notification be mandatory, criminal notification and DNA testing to determine the father of every abortion performed on an underage girl should be mandatory as well (to see what if any criminal abuse or statutory rape issues might be involved).

The court should be involved every single time (to remove any possible chance via pressure applied on the girl by anyone - be it teacher, relative, boyfriend whatever, to 'hide' their identity).

It’s not ‘privacy’ when an adult is pressuring a minor to keep a secret via an anonymous abortion, it’s aiding and abetting a crime.

Of course, you don't believe in privacy period.

I don't think so. Each person should have the ability to do whatever they want to their own bodies without anyone else knowing. If someone wants to cut themselves in private, to do drugs in private, or to have an abortion in private, then I believe that person should have that right. As long as they're not directly hurting anyone else with their actions (such as suicide bombing), I believe that person has both the right to privacy and the right to do what they wish with their own body.

THEIR OWN BODIES?! NOT DIRECTLY HURTING ANYONE ELSE?! I'm sorry but i didnt realize that a baby is not a human, but a body part. How do you think the unborn babies feel about abortion? Its not a discharge. Its not a loss in protein. Its not an animal. Its a human being. The fact is, abortion stops a beating heart. Other than abortion, i am very liberal. I am a strong beleiver in women's rights. But i also beleive in the rights of those who have no say or representation in society, the victims of the murder that is abortion, the unborn babies.

It could be the reasons you mention, although the fear can be completely unfounded. It can also be other reasons, like simple embarrassment.

What I'm saying is, it is not necessarily a good reason why they don't want their parents to know. But there could perhaps be made exeptions for the most extreme situations - if the child claims that it will suffer seriously damaging consequences if her parents are notified, one will have to evaluate the merits of that claim in each individual case.
And how do they investigate this case in a timely manner without alerting the child's parents? I mean, if the kid's going to be thrown out of the house and that's why she doesn't want to tell her parents, then how do you investigate whether her parents would really throw her out without letting them know, thus resulting in them throwing her out of the house?

THEIR OWN BODIES?! NOT DIRECTLY HURTING ANYONE ELSE?! I'm sorry but i didnt realize that a baby is not a human, but a body part. How do you think the unborn babies feel about abortion?
It doesn't feel a damn thing.

Other than abortion, i am very liberal. I am a strong beleiver in women's rights. But i also beleive in the rights of those who have no say or representation in society, the victims of the murder that is abortion, the unborn babies.
If you're anti-choice, you're not for women's rights, you wish to make women slaves to their reproductive systems.

THEIR OWN BODIES?! NOT DIRECTLY HURTING ANYONE ELSE?! I'm sorry but i didnt realize that a baby is not a human, but a body part. How do you think the unborn babies feel about abortion? Its not a discharge. Its not a loss in protein. Its not an animal. Its a human being. The fact is, abortion stops a beating heart. Other than abortion, i am very liberal. I am a strong beleiver in women's rights. But i also beleive in the rights of those who have no say or representation in society, the victims of the murder that is abortion, the unborn babies.

Your problem is with abortion and has nothing to do with parental notification.

Now, if you just studied a little biology and philosophy, you'd understand the abortion question itself. You might also consider that women are not baby factories. Women are persons with superior claims to the use of their own body.

And how do they investigate this case in a timely manner without alerting the child's parents? I mean, if the kid's going to be thrown out of the house and that's why she doesn't want to tell her parents, then how do you investigate whether her parents would really throw her out without letting them know, thus resulting in them throwing her out of the house?
Any parent who would toss their own child out of the house for becoming pregnant should be declared an unfit parent, thus losing any "parental rights" they may have had.

Well, I think anyone under 14 who wants an abortion should have to have parentel notificication unless it was rape in part of a parent, but anyone older should be able to.
Also, take this situation: the girl was raped. She's maybe 15, and is still in school and has no way to support a baby. She goes to her parents, but let's say they say no because they say that it's immoral. Now, the girl had no choice in this matter, and now she has a baby to support.This could stop her from going to college, thus stopping her from getting a good career, just because her parents said no.
agreed

"Coerce" is a pejorative and indicates a lack of trust. I'm sorry if you don't ( didn't? ) trust your own parents, but that's not the issue here. The issue is that a person under 18 is still legally ( as well as usually in most other ways ) a child. They do not ( again, usually ) have sufficient maturity to make such a decision on her own. Again I will state that I would never tolerate a law which so negated and warped the relationship between my children and me.
And if these kids trusted their parents, telling them they're pregnant and want an abortion won't be an issue.

It doesn't feel a damn thing.
This is definitely open to debate. :(

Any parent who would toss their own child out of the house for becoming pregnant should be declared an unfit parent, thus losing any "parental rights" they may have had.
But that doesn't help the girl who no longer has a roof over her head or food on her table, now does it?

This is definitely open to debate. :(
90% of abortions occur in the first trimester. It doesn't have a nervous system, it is physically incapable of feeling a damn thing.
At 24 weeks, well that's another matter.

And if these kids trusted their parents, telling them they're pregnant and want an abortion won't be an issue.
Sometimes trust is deserved and given. Sometimes trust is deserved and not given. Other times trust is not deserved, period. What's your point?

But that doesn't help the girl who no longer has a roof over her head or food on her table, now does it?
Um ... I thought the point at issue here was whether parental notification was appropriate or not, not whether parents were fit or unfit, nor whether there are other options besides living at home.

Sometimes trust is deserved and given. Sometimes trust is deserved and not given. Other times trust is not deserved, period. What's your point?
My point is that you said that coersion implies a lack of trust, if a kid doesn't trust her parents, she may think that they will try to coerce her into carrying the pregnancy to term. She may also believe that they will kick her out if she doesn't trust them or in some way hold her decision against her later on. If a kid trusts her parents, she will tell them what's going on so they can support her, if the kid doesn't trust her parents, then she shouldn't have to tell them.

This is definitely open to debate. :(

Not for all but about .04-.08% of abortions -- and those are the ones that are medically necessary.

My point is that you said that coersion implies a lack of trust, if a kid doesn't trust her parents, she may think that they will try to coerce her into carrying the pregnancy to term. She may also believe that they will kick her out if she doesn't trust them or in some way hold her decision against her later on. If a kid trusts her parents, she will tell them what's going on so they can support her, if the kid doesn't trust her parents, then she shouldn't have to tell them.

Another way of looking at the same thing is this:

If you have raised your child so that she is afraid to tell you she wants an abortion, then you don't deserve to be told.

Um ... I thought the point at issue here was whether parental notification was appropriate or not, not whether parents were fit or unfit, nor whether there are other options besides living at home.
Ok, you said that a parent who would throw their pregnant daugther out for seeking an abortion is unfit to be a parent. I said that this poor girl, who was forced to tell her parents about her pregnancy and is now out on the streets because her parents are unfit and she was forced to tell them in order to receive a medical procedure is screwed.

Another way of looking at the same thing is this:

If you have raised your child so that she is afraid to tell you she wants an abortion, then you don't deserve to be told.
Exactly.

90% of abortions occur in the first trimester. It doesn't have a nervous system, it is physically incapable of feeling a damn thing.
I seriously doubt this, but you're certainly welcome to prove it ... if you can.

Ok, you said that a parent who would throw their pregnant daugther out for seeking an abortion is unfit to be a parent. I said that this poor girl, who was forced to tell her parents about her pregnancy and is now out on the streets because her parents are unfit and she was forced to tell them in order to receive a medical procedure is screwed.
With parents like that, she might be better off! :(

Sticky subject. Seeing as how teenagers are at a higher risk for complications as a result of having an abortion, I feel that parents should be notified but not required to give consent. Part of my reasoning is to avoid extreme shock factors like, "I'm sorry to inform you,Mrs. Jensen, that your daughter died as a result of anesthesia toxicity during an abortion she had this afternoon."

Parents who take any negative actions such as kicking their daughter out after the fact should be subject to charges of neglect or something similar and face criminal punishment. Counseling should be provided free of charge for the family prior to and/or after the procedure. Another reason I feel parent notification is beneficial is that parents might be aware of any medical history the daughter might not be aware of that could possibly affect the procedure.

I seriously doubt this, but you're certainly welcome to prove it ... if you can.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm

In 2001, for women whose weeks of gestation at the time of abortion were adequately reported (42 reporting areas), 59% of reported legal induced abortions were known to have been obtained at <8 weeks' gestation and 87% at <13 weeks (Table 6). Overall (40 reporting areas), 25% of abortions were known to have been performed at <6 weeks' gestation, 18% at 7 weeks, and 16% at 8 weeks (Table 7). Few reported abortions occurred after 15 weeks' gestation: 4.2% at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks.

I seriously doubt this, but you're certainly welcome to prove it ... if you can.
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm
88% of abortions took place between weeks 6 and 12 in the US.

With parents like that, she might be better off! :(
She's better off without a home or the ability to provide for herself? She's better off not being able to go to school? How exactly is she better off?

Not only should parental notification be mandatory, criminal notification and DNA testing to determine the father of every abortion performed on an underage girl should be mandatory as well (to see what if any criminal abuse or statutory rape issues might be involved).

The court should be involved every single time (to remove any possible chance via pressure applied on the girl by anyone - be it teacher, relative, boyfriend whatever, to 'hide' their identity).

It’s not ‘privacy’ when an adult is pressuring a minor to keep a secret via an anonymous abortion, it’s aiding and abetting a crime.

Of course, you don't believe in privacy period.

Oh, I see, we're making blanket and unsubstantiated summaries.

Shall I now then refer to your desire to protect pedophiliacs and child molesters? I'm surprised you find the time to post here at all since you're so busy defending NAMBLA and fathers whom rape their own daughters. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you'll consider a real point of view before posting bullshit next time? But I doubt it.

I seriously doubt this, but you're certainly welcome to prove it ... if you can.
Looks like Dakini and The Cat-Tribe have the stats to back up their statements. Especially the Centre for Disease Control report.

"Hmm...

Just because someone can physically become pregnant doesn't make them emotionally mature. Hows that for common sense, even from someone who also doesn't believe in parental notification?"

maybe if the parents would stop coddling the kids until they are 21 they would be mature enough to make such decisions? forcing blinders on your kids and telling them just say no is why kids get pregnant in the first place.

in any event,this is NOT about the parents control issues. its the young ladies decision,and it has no moral implications either way. religion doesnt belong in certain places. getting an abortion may be the best decision for the girl sometimes,and forcing her to keep the baby or give it up for adoption is selfish on the parents part...

if people were more open about sex and less judgemental of others,we would have less rapes,less diseases,and less teen pregnancies. for those of you who like to say "studies have shown" without quoting your source,i can tell you studies have shown that the more repressive a country is about sexuality,the more problems they have with sexual issues like teen pregnancy as well as crime. if you want proof,look outside your little bubble and research other countries policies and how it affects the population. "good christian morals" is just another way of saying "lie and deny until the day I die..."

If you're anti-choice, you're not for women's rights, you wish to make women slaves to their reproductive systems.

Your acting like a female reproductive system is a curse. It is not a curse, but a blessing. You have no idea how many women would love to adopt a child because they are unable to bear a child of their own.

I believe that a woman has the right to do what she wants with her body. If a woman wants to get a tattoo, cut herself, or even kill herself, i would not accuse these actions of being immoral or murderous. But abortion is killing another life that is not the woman's body. Therefore she has no right.

And who are you to say that im not for women's rights? I am strongly apposed to the fact that women generally earn 30% less money in their salaries than men, but i am not for women's rights because i dont beleive they have the right to kill another human being? That is not right.

Another way of looking at the same thing is this:

If you have raised your child so that she is afraid to tell you she wants an abortion, then you don't deserve to be told.
Debate over.

Oh, I see, we're making blanket and unsubstantiated summaries.

Shall I now then refer to your desire to protect pedophiliacs and child molesters? I'm surprised you find the time to post here at all since you're so busy defending NAMBLA and fathers whom rape their own daughters. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you'll consider a real point of view before posting bullshit next time? But I doubt it.

Your flaming is unnecessary.

I have never defended NAMBLA or child molesters or any form of rapist.

I thought you had said you did not think their was a right to privacy protected by the US Constitution. Thus, I thought I was fairly summarizing your overall view. I apologize if I was wrong.

I don't think so. Each person should have the ability to do whatever they want to their own bodies without anyone else knowing. If someone wants to cut themselves in private, to do drugs in private, or to have an abortion in private, then I believe that person should have that right. As long as they're not directly hurting anyone else with their actions (such as suicide bombing), I believe that person has both the right to privacy and the right to do what they wish with their own body.

The part of your argument that bothers me is the "directly hurting anyone else". There is child growing inside the girl that is hurt by his/her mother recieving an abortion. I think being killed falls can be considered being hurt...to say the least.

Your acting like a female reproductive system is a curse. It is not a curse, but a blessing. You have no idea how many women would love to adopt a child because they are unable to bear a child of their own.

I believe that a woman has the right to do what she wants with her body. If a woman wants to get a tattoo, cut herself, or even kill herself, i would not accuse these actions of being immoral or murderous. But abortion is killing another life that is not the woman's body. Therefore she has no right.
No, I know the reproductive system is not a curse. However, you are hellbent on making women slaves to it. By forcing women to relinquish control of when they reproduce you are in effect making us slaves to our uteruses.
This "other life" isn't even considered a life by the definition of a life. It doesn't perform all the functions of life until the 24th week when it begins to preform stimulus response as an organism. You are putting the "rights" of this potential organism above the rights of a woman. You are making her be a slave to this undesired embryo growing in her womb.

And who are you to say that im not for women's rights? I am strongly apposed to the fact that women generally earn 30% less money in their salaries than men, but i am not for women's rights because i dont beleive they have the right to kill another human being? That is not right.
Want to know part of why women are earning less than men?
Because we take time out of climbing the career ladder to have children. If a woman is at a crucial point in her job and is forced to take a year off work that she cannot afford to take off work, you are helping to make sure that she will continue to earn less than her male peers.
Granted, this isn't the only reason, but it is a big one.

The part of your argument that bothers me is the "directly hurting anyone else". There is child growing inside the girl that is hurt by his/her mother recieving an abortion. I think being killed falls can be considered being hurt...to say the least.
A little objectivism please.

The part of your argument that bothers me is the "directly hurting anyone else". There is child growing inside the girl that is hurt by his/her mother recieving an abortion. I think being killed falls can be considered being hurt...to say the least.
It's not a child. Using emotive language doesn't make it a life either.

The part of your argument that bothers me is the "directly hurting anyone else". There is child growing inside the girl that is hurt by his/her mother recieving an abortion. I think being killed falls can be considered being hurt...to say the least.

No person is hurt by an early term abortion. An embryo has no thoughts, feelings. It barely has begun a nervous system.

Why should it be OK to slaughter a pig for food, but not for a woman to control her own body because of a parasite with less intellect than the pig?

Ideally, every child would have parents who are trustworthy, loving, responsible, and respectful. Ideally, every child would willingly and rightfully seek guidance from their family when facing decisions as serious as an unwanted pregnancy. Ideally, every parent would be well equipped to help their child make the best possible decision in such a situation.

We don't live in "Ideally."

Laws that force young women to notify parents of reproductive health decisions do not help anybody, and seriously endanger the health and safety of countless young women. The only people who support such laws are either grossly misinformed or hideously cruel.

Isn't the reason kids have to get permission for so many things because they're not considered responsible enough or worldly enough to know what might be right for them? At least that's how the law sees it.

So why is it that a child isn't responsible enough to buy alcohol or cigarettes, yet they should should be responsible enough to terminate a human life.

(Sorry for double post)
And no, it is not illegal for underage children to have sex, just frowned upon and probably a little immoral.

In Britain its illegal to have sex under the age of 16, if you have sex with an under 13 year old it is classed as rape (whether with consent or otherwise). Anal sex is illegal until 18...British Judicial system, we love it! :D

Abortion is not wrong, it is not murder as the embryo and foetus has no rights until it is born, IMO. In most circumstances it is the correct option for girls and women, especially in this circumstance where they are underage. However, abortion should not be an easy way out for women, and should not be used as a form of contraception, repeated use is wrong. Although, the amount that do this is so minimal it is almost a non issue.

In this case, daughters should be able to have an abortion without parental consent, it is a personal choice, it is their bodies they should do what they want with their bodies. However, they should be advised to tell their parents at least, and i believe most girls would because it would be hard to keep something like that secret for any long period of time.

Graham Harvey

Of course. It's risking the life of a teenage mother to uphold one's sense of decency. By the same kind of logic, you could volunteer your child for use as bait to lure a murderous pedophile out of hiding.

Putting one's self in harm's way for the sake of others is considered noble. Putting someone else, especially children, in harm's way for the sake of others is sick.

:confused: What are you talking about? All I said is that adoption is an alternative to having and raising the clild herself or having an abortion. Some people may want to choose that alternative.

THEIR OWN BODIES?! NOT DIRECTLY HURTING ANYONE ELSE?! I'm sorry but i didnt realize that a baby is not a human, but a body part. How do you think the unborn babies feel about abortion? Its not a discharge. Its not a loss in protein. Its not an animal. Its a human being. The fact is, abortion stops a beating heart. Other than abortion, i am very liberal. I am a strong beleiver in women's rights. But i also beleive in the rights of those who have no say or representation in society, the victims of the murder that is abortion, the unborn babies.

Again, this is not a debate about abortion, it is a debate about parental notification if an underage woman seeks an abortion. Please stick to the subject. Abortion is another debate. Thank you.

Isn't the reason kids have to get permission for so many things because they're not considered responsible enough or worldly enough to know what might be right for them? At least that's how the law sees it.

So why is it that a child isn't responsible enough to buy alcohol or cigarettes, yet they should should be responsible enough to terminate a human life.

If a person needs the state's permission in the form of a driver's license to drive, why shouldn't they need the state's premission to have sex?

Think about it.

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm
88% of abortions took place between weeks 6 and 12 in the US.
That says little or nothing about the fetus having any sensations of pain, which is what I was asking about.

She's better off without a home or the ability to provide for herself? She's better off not being able to go to school? How exactly is she better off?
Jeeze. Calm down before you break something! [ points at the word "might." ]

Having a hissy fit accomplishes little if anything. :p

No, I know the reproductive system is not a curse. However, you are hellbent on making women slaves to it. By forcing women to relinquish control of when they reproduce you are in effect making us slaves to our uteruses.
This "other life" isn't even considered a life by the definition of a life. It doesn't perform all the functions of life until the 24th week when it begins to preform stimulus response as an organism. You are putting the "rights" of this potential organism above the rights of a woman. You are making her be a slave to this undesired embryo growing in her womb.


Want to know part of why women are earning less than men?
Because we take time out of climbing the career ladder to have children. If a woman is at a crucial point in her job and is forced to take a year off work that she cannot afford to take off work, you are helping to make sure that she will continue to earn less than her male peers.
Granted, this isn't the only reason, but it is a big one.

You make some good points. But (dont take this as a death threat) what if you were killed before birth? You had the chance to become anything you want, and accomplish great things. But that chance was taken away from you by someone else you had no say in this stripping of opportunity. Think of some great people in history who were born into a poor family. Imagine if their mothers commited abortion. Think of all the great things they accomplished for society had never happened because of an abortion. Think of the great leaders we could have right now or in the future, but we dont because of abortion.

And the argument of they "dont feel a thing" is irrelevent. That is the equivilant of killing someone by shooting them in the head, right in the temple, while they were sleeping. Odds are, they wouldnt feel it. But is that justified? You would still be ending a life even if they dont feel anything.

And how do they investigate this case in a timely manner without alerting the child's parents? I mean, if the kid's going to be thrown out of the house and that's why she doesn't want to tell her parents, then how do you investigate whether her parents would really throw her out without letting them know, thus resulting in them throwing her out of the house?

I would imagine there were different ways one could go about that investigation, however I'm no expert so I won't speculate too much. The most basic way I can think of would be to interview the child to determine if what she is saying seems resonable, and based on something more than just a frightened imagination.

But this would in any case just be a problem for a very small minority of cases, and therefore I don't feel that this possible scenario outweighs other considerations in this matter.

To illustrate:
Given that the child is 12 years old, as used as an example previously, than her age would for example be below the age of consent in most states in the US. Thus an investigation is warranted, to determen if something criminal has taken place. Now, if the parents in this case were to throw her out because she's had sex, what can you do? And imagine if they threaten to throw her out if they find out she was raped? Should you not conduct the investigation because there is a danger of negative consequenses for the child? I believe you should investigate, and that this probably would be where the government needed to step in and protect the child from harm - since her parents are unwilling to do so.

Sticky subject. Seeing as how teenagers are at a higher risk for complications as a result of having an abortion, I feel that parents should be notified but not required to give consent. Part of my reasoning is to avoid extreme shock factors like, "I'm sorry to inform you,Mrs. Jensen, that your daughter died as a result of anesthesia toxicity during an abortion she had this afternoon."

*snip*

Another reason I feel parent notification is beneficial is that parents might be aware of any medical history the daughter might not be aware of that could possibly affect the procedure.

I agree with you, especially on the last part.

Looks like Dakini and The Cat-Tribe have the stats to back up their statements. Especially the Centre for Disease Control report.
The fact that none of the referred to articles mentions a damned thing about whether the fetus can feel pain is, of course, irrelevant. :rolleyes:

That says little or nothing about the fetus having any sensations of pain, which is what I was asking about.

If the fetus does not have a nervous system at the time of the abortion, how can it feel pain? By showing you when the majority of abortions take place, they are answering your question, albeit obliquely.

If a person needs the state's permission in the form of a driver's license to drive, why shouldn't they need the state's premission to have sex?

Think about it.
It's an entirely different ball game with kids, though. Parental consent is required for a multitude of things, medical procedures included. The right to have an abortion should be allowed based on the decision of an adult, not a child. People have a right to privacy, but parents have a right to oversee the privacy of their kids in cases such as abortion.

:confused: What are you talking about? All I said is that adoption is an alternative to having and raising the clild herself or having an abortion. Some people may want to choose that alternative.
Ok, I admit that was a little heavy-handed. I have seen advocation of adoption as a form of stealth pro-life advocacy, sort of like replacing "creationism" with "intelligent design". If that was not your intention, then I do apologize.

Still, I don't think that adoption should be used as an excuse to deny an abortion to a teenage mother.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that debating whether or not abortion is murder should be null and void in this thread? Fetus "rights" aside, the question is about parental notification. I don't view arguments of parents being notified on the grounds that their daughter is terminating a life as a legitimate reason personally.

Laws that force young women to notify parents of reproductive health decisions do not help anybody, and seriously endanger the health and safety of countless young women. The only people who support such laws are either grossly misinformed or hideously cruel.

Maybe so, but we are talking about minors, including children below the age of consent. I disagree with you, and I do not believe I'm misinformed when I believe it in most cases would be in the childs best interests.

Ideally, every child would have parents who are trustworthy, loving, responsible, and respectful. Ideally, every child would willingly and rightfully seek guidance from their family when facing decisions as serious as an unwanted pregnancy. Ideally, every parent would be well equipped to help their child make the best possible decision in such a situation.

We don't live in "Ideally."

Laws that force young women to notify parents of reproductive health decisions do not help anybody, and seriously endanger the health and safety of countless young women. The only people who support such laws are either grossly misinformed or hideously cruel.
"One law for the lion and the lamb is tyranny."

Should I be penalized for some idiot asshole of a parent who can't find his frakkin' ass with both hands, even though I raised my children to be trusting, responsible, compassionate people? The only answer I can even envision is "Hell NO!"

Any law which tells me that I cannot know when my child has a medical problem, even if that "problem" is an unwanted pregnancy, is wrong. Period!

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that debating whether or not abortion is murder should be null and void in this thread? Fetus "rights" aside, the question is about parental notification. I don't view arguments of parents being notified on the grounds that their daughter is terminating a life as a legitimate reason personally.
No. It's not just you. I agree. This is an inflammatory enough issue without bringing that contentious debate into it as well.