NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems that Sweden, the supposed bastion of freedom in Europe, was directly involved in helping Adolph Hitler fund his murderous war machine, indirectly helping to kill hundreds of thousands of allies, and millions of Jews and other concentration camp victims.

As the Eizenstat Report details: "Sweden was a critical trading partner of Nazi Germany. Its exports of ball bearings to Germany were vitally important during the war, and for a time Sweden supplied Germany with 40 percent of its iron ore until other European sources reduced that dependency."

Without trade partners such as Sweden, Turkey, and Spain, and the generous holding of billions in plundered loot by Switzerland, who knows how many thousands of Allies would have been saved from the hell that was WW2?
Who knows how many millions would have been saved from gas chambers and ovens?

What truly bothers me is the lack of representation of these facts in movies, documentations available to the public, and historical dramatizations. It shouldn't take me wandering upon these facts hidden in PBS's archives to enlighten me of atrocities committed by countries I used to consider to be Morally just. Note that I said "used to".



Sources
1 (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/etc/map4.html)
2 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/02/us.nazi.gold/)

Meh, it was rampant across Scandinavia: after all, where did the term 'quisling' come from?

Well what do you expect it's Sweden... It's a Communist's wet dream on ice (it's also going bankrupt because they can't afford to give people free everything for free anymore).

Those damn Nordics. Thinking they are superior...pfft everyone knows that being Germanic is where its at.

I wonder when Fass will post...

Well what do you expect it's Sweden... It's a Communist's wet dream on ice (it's also going bankrupt because they can't afford to give people free everything for free anymore).
Communist my ass.

uh.....ok

Communist my ass.

Uh, some kind of weird Socialist-Capitalist bastard child then?

Uh, some kind of weird Socialist-Capitalist bastard child then?
A little better.

Uh, some kind of weird Socialist-Capitalist bastard child then?
I think that sums it up a bit better. I think they need a little more capitalism though. ;)

Just wait until Fass gets here.

The swiss was just as bad you know, in fact all of the neutrals made deals with both sides.

I was expecting a naughty-boy dress-up pic of Fass.

Just wait until Fass gets here.
Sorry, but personally, I don't give two shits what Fass thinks. :rolleyes:

I was expecting a naughty-boy dress-up pic of Fass.
Oh, the thoughts that conjures...

Weren't the americans selling arms to both sides until they got drawn into the conflict?

All nations have done bad things in the past.

All nations have done bad things in the past.

Yeah, like those goddamn Andorrans. :D

Weren't the americans selling arms to both sides until they got drawn into the conflict?

Yes, we were, however; we rectified our mistakes by going in and kicking ze Germans asses!

Yeah, like those goddamn Andorrans. :D
They slaughtered millions...of goats.

I think the first poster in this thread is american though. It seems stupid of him to vilainize Sweden for supplying the nazis with iron while his own country was supplying them with weapons. I mean, iron can be used for lots of things, guns only have a couple purposes...

Yes, we were, however; we rectified our mistakes by going in and kicking ze Germans asses!
Only because the japanese attacked you first.

I think the first poster in this thread is american though. It seems stupid of him to vilainize Sweden for supplying the nazis with iron while his own country was supplying them with weapons. I mean, iron can be used for lots of things, guns only have a couple purposes...

Once could use the butt of a gun as a hammer...

**ponders**

Only because the japanese attacked you first.

ok....and we still kicked some Nazi ass....so what are you trying to say. Who cares how we got drawn into it...the fact is THAT we did it.

It seems that Sweden, the supposed bastion of freedom in Europe, was directly involved in helping Adolph Hitler fund his murderous war machine, indirectly helping to kill hundreds of thousands of allies, and millions of Jews and other concentration camp victims.

As the Eizenstat Report details: "Sweden was a critical trading partner of Nazi Germany. Its exports of ball bearings to Germany were vitally important during the war, and for a time Sweden supplied Germany with 40 percent of its iron ore until other European sources reduced that dependency."

Without trade partners such as Sweden, Turkey, and Spain, and the generous holding of billions in plundered loot by Switzerland, who knows how many thousands of Allies would have been saved from the hell that was WW2?
Who knows how many millions would have been saved from gas chambers and ovens?

What truly bothers me is the lack of representation of these facts in movies, documentations available to the public, and historical dramatizations. It shouldn't take me wandering upon these facts hidden in PBS's archives to enlighten me of atrocities committed by countries I used to consider to be Morally just. Note that I said "used to".



Sources
1 (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/etc/map4.html)
2 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/02/us.nazi.gold/)
so whats your point? sweden isnt perfect?

what country IS?

i cant say ive ever seen a documentary of any kind about sweden so its not surprising to me that no one bothered to do a "sweden did business with the nazis" one.

The swiss was just as bad you know, in fact all of the neutrals made deals with both sides.

1) In World War II, Switzerland was completely surrounded by the Nazis. The fact that they did nothing more than trade with them is pretty remarkable.

2) Switzerland has limited natural resources and depends heavily on trade in order to meet the needs of its citizens. Unlike the US, the Swiss would have had a very difficult time not trading with the Nazis.

I mean, iron can be used for lots of things, guns only have a couple purposes...
"This is my rifle; this is my shotgun. One is for killing; the other is for fun"
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

What truly bothers me is the lack of representation of these facts in movies, documentations available to the public, and historical dramatizations. It shouldn't take me wandering upon these facts hidden in PBS's archives to enlighten me of atrocities committed by countries I used to consider to be Morally just. Note that I said "used to".

That Sweden traded iron ore with Germany is well known. Just because you haven't watched a hollywood movie about it doesn't mean it was "hidden". God forbid you actually have to open a book to learn about history. :rolleyes:

And to call the trade of iron ore as an "atrocity" is absolutely absurd.

what country IS?

In the words of Jingoism...uh, America, duh.

what country IS?
Liechtenstein.

ok....and we still kicked some Nazi ass....so what are you trying to say. Who cares how we got drawn into it...the fact is THAT we did it.
My point was that it's stupid to point fingers at other nations for dealing with terrible people when your own country was doing the same thing.
I have nothing against either nation, nor do I think that the US's role in world war two was unimportant, my own grandfather fought over in Europe for the states and I'm proud of him for doing so... however, that doesn't mean it was ok for americans to be selling arms to the nazis to begin with.

Weren't the americans selling arms to both sides until they got drawn into the conflict?
While we did trade with both sides, we didn't sell arms to both sides. We sided heavily with the British when it came to military trade. Look up the destroyers for bases deal in 1940 I believe.

I think the first poster in this thread is american though. It seems stupid of him to vilainize Sweden for supplying the nazis with iron while his own country was supplying them with weapons. I mean, iron can be used for lots of things, guns only have a couple purposes...

Yea guns can be very helpful in suicide. Maybe we should nail the US for aiding suicide by not trading guns?

I LOVE it! I write a post about Sweden, and their dealings with Nazi Germany, and instead of a hearty discussion on the merits of the post, or other facts to dispute it, I get "AMERICA DID BAD SHIT TOO, SO THERE!!!!!!"

Yet another reason why Americans are jingoistic. No matter what you say, America is brought up and shredded to disprove your point.

You people wonder why we solve problems with bombs. Talking just doesn't do anything but put up America as a target. WHAT THE FUCK does America have to do with Sweden's dealings with the Nazis? If you rape someone, does it make it OK if your neighbor rapes someone too?

The thread is about Sweden, like it or not.

So what if they sold traded with Nazi Germany? As has been mentioned before, so did the United States. However, no one mentions how the Swedes took in and sheltered almost the whole Jewish population of Denmark. Now, how did that help Hitler?

you know all im saying here is that one of us might need a little nap-- dogma

1) In World War II, Switzerland was completely surrounded by the Nazis. The fact that they did nothing more than trade with them is pretty remarkable.

2) Switzerland has limited natural resources and depends heavily on trade in order to meet the needs of its citizens. Unlike the US, the Swiss would have had a very difficult time not trading with the Nazis.

Sweeden was surrounded by Norway (occupied by Germany) Finland (Allied with Germany) And water controlled by the Germans for the majority of the war.

They were surrounded also.

[B]"Sweden was a critical trading partner of Nazi Germany. Its exports of ball bearings to Germany were vitally important during the war,
DAMN YOU SWEDEN AND YOUR NAZI BALL BEARINGS!!!!

Please. Canada did even worse...we turned away Jews who tried to find refuge here. We are DIRECTLY responsible for deaths. And you need to stop trying to bait Fass...we ALL know what you're doing. Subtlety is clearly not your forte.

Alright, sorry for getting off topic.

I don't know a whole lot about Sweden in WW2; I know Norway was invaded and had a significant underground movement against nazis. I know Finland was fighting the Russians so they sort of took the side of the Nazis.

But I've never looked up Sweden. I don't think they did play a major fighting role in the war. And if trading was all they did, then it wasn't enough to make a difference to the Nazis.

Don't lose sleep over it.

Sorry, but personally, I don't give two shits what Fass thinks. :rolleyes:
Sure. Keep telling yourself that.

It seems that Sweden, the supposed bastion of freedom in Europe, was directly involved in helping Adolph Hitler fund his murderous war machine, indirectly helping to kill hundreds of thousands of allies, and millions of Jews and other concentration camp victims.

As the Eizenstat Report details: "Sweden was a critical trading partner of Nazi Germany. Its exports of ball bearings to Germany were vitally important during the war, and for a time Sweden supplied Germany with 40 percent of its iron ore until other European sources reduced that dependency."

Without trade partners such as Sweden, Turkey, and Spain, and the generous holding of billions in plundered loot by Switzerland, who knows how many thousands of Allies would have been saved from the hell that was WW2?
Who knows how many millions would have been saved from gas chambers and ovens?

What truly bothers me is the lack of representation of these facts in movies, documentations available to the public, and historical dramatizations. It shouldn't take me wandering upon these facts hidden in PBS's archives to enlighten me of atrocities committed by countries I used to consider to be Morally just. Note that I said "used to".



Sources
1 (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/etc/map4.html)
2 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/02/us.nazi.gold/)


Nasty, bitter, stinkey, classless, mess this post.

Fass really shouldnt dignify this low-brow, embarassing garbage with a reply.

Sorry, but personally, I don't give two shits what Fass thinks. :rolleyes:
LOL

That's rich.
You can't wait for him to serve it up your ass once again.

It's unfortunate my genetic make-up prohibits me from defending Sweden...

And you need to stop trying to bait Fass...we ALL know what you're doing. Subtlety is clearly not your forte.
Obviously, making baseless accusations is one of your strongpoints. :rolleyes:
Let me put this plainly for all the "slow" people in here. I DON"T CARE what Fass thinks. Period! Do people bait me when they post something about America? Are they baiting you when they talk about Canada? Grow the fuck up!

Obviously, making baseless accusations is one of your strongpoints. :rolleyes:
Let me put this plainly for all the "slow" people in here. I DON"T CARE what Fass thinks. Period! Do people bait me when they post something about America? Are they baiting you when they talk about Canada? Grow the fuck up!
you are the only one who believes this post

Sweden maintained its neutrality throughout the war - however, they were ready for any German shenanigans. The Swedes had a massive build-up of their military and defences during the war.

By the way, the ships of Jewish refugees were not only turned away from Canada, but the U.S.A., too. And besides, there was a war shortly after; one could say we are responsible for a lot of deaths. However, could one not also say that we saved many more. How many more people would have died were it not for the help of the U.S. and Canada during the war. Certainly, Germany would have still lost to the Soviet Union, but after how long - and could've England held out with even fewer troops and supplies during the Battle of Britain.

I LOVE it! I write a post about Sweden, and their dealings with Nazi Germany, and instead of a hearty discussion on the merits of the post, or other facts to dispute it, I get "AMERICA DID BAD SHIT TOO, SO THERE!!!!!!"

Yet another reason why Americans are jingoistic. No matter what you say, America is brought up and shredded to disprove your point.

You people wonder why we solve problems with bombs. Talking just doesn't do anything but put up America as a target. WHAT THE FUCK does America have to do with Sweden's dealings with the Nazis? If you rape someone, does it make it OK if your neighbor rapes someone too?

The thread is about Sweden, like it or not.
I'm just saying that if you're going to say that Sweden had a nazi past, then so did america for the exact same reason.

Obviously, making baseless accusations is one of your strongpoints. :rolleyes: Hehehehe...you know the taunt...I'm rubber and you're glue? Well it really seems to apply to you.
Let me put this plainly for all the "slow" people in here. I DON"T CARE what Fass thinks. Period! Do people bait me when they post something about America? Are they baiting you when they talk about Canada? Grow the fuck up!
Methinks you do protest too much. Regardless, the perception of you in General is not based on anything but your own behaviour here...behaviour which includes repeated attacks on Fass, and others. So if we suspect your motives for this thread, it is with good reason.

Frankly, I think the consensus is that the only one 'worried' about this...topic...is you.

*silence fills the thread*

Obviously, most of you have NOTHING intelligent to say about this. You either bring up America, or Fass, NITHER of which I have posted ANYTHING about. If your too dumb to comment on the post, just admit it, and quit wasting peoples time.

I'd rather someone post facts making everything I stated wrong, instaed of a bunch of low brow insults and a few posts from people who apparently worship Fass as the only thing mentionable about Sweden. It's a big country folks, and there are more then 1 persons in it.

I'm just saying that if you're going to say that Sweden had a nazi past, then so did america for the exact same reason.
OMG!!!THIS THREAD IS ABOUT SWEDEN! Why can't you leave the US out of it? Who cares if the OP is a USian...that is NOT the point! Jeez! How dare you attack the US! What does that have to do with anything at all? :D

Regardless, the perception of you in General is not based on anything but your own behaviour here...behaviour which includes repeated attacks on Fass, and others. So if we suspect your motives for this thread, it is with good reason.

Frankly, I think the consensus is that the only one 'worried' about this...topic...is you.

*silence fills the thread*
You have a certain "perception" on here as well, dear Sinuhue.

And if no one is worried about this topic, it's strange its already past the second 40 post page.

You have a certain "perception" on here as well, dear Sinuhue.

And if no one is worried about this topic, it's strange its already past the second 40 post page.
When you have some nation and Nazi in the same line, it's bound to get attention.

Sweden maintained its neutrality throughout the war - however, they were ready for any German shenanigans. The Swedes had a massive build-up of their military and defences during the war.

Which gives them even less of an excuse to trade with the Nazis.

Obviously, most of you have NOTHING intelligent to say about this. You either bring up America, or Fass, NITHER of which I have posted ANYTHING about. If your too dumb to comment on the post, just admit it, and quit wasting peoples time.

I'd rather someone post facts making everything I stated wrong, instaed of a bunch of low brow insults and a few posts from people who apparently worship Fass as the only thing mentionable about Sweden. It's a big country folks, and there are more then 1 persons in it.
Actually, quite a few people have made some good comments. You, despite being the OP, can not dictate the manner in which people must discuss this topic. If they choose to bring up the US, or Canada, or Burkina Faso they can...as long as their posts are relevant to the topic...and in many cases it has been in a comparative sense. I say Canada did worse than Sweden. That is not straying from the topic, and you really need to refrain from calling everyone 'dumb' for not jumping on your bandwagon. Don't like it? Take it to moderation.

That's no surprise to me. You're talking about a country that also invaded Russia in the 1700's. It's in the past and although it's important we should remember these things I don't think it's really that big of a deal.

What are you going to do, not shop at Ikea anymore?

I say Canada did worse than Sweden.

Except for how Canadians actually fought and defeated Germany, and helped liberate the concentration camps.

You have a certain "perception" on here as well, dear Sinuhue. I certainly hope so after over a year.

And if no one is worried about this topic, it's strange its already past the second 40 post page.
You misunderstand. No one seems to care about Sweden's limited dealings with the Nazis, in comparison to other nations' more extensive arrangements. You'll notice I've brought up my own nation a number of times to show you that I think my own nation, for instance, committed far worse crimes than Sweden.

Which gives them even less of an excuse to trade with the Nazis.
Would you rather Sweden died economically? That was basically the situation.

Sweden supplied Germany with 40 percent of its iron ore until other European sources reduced that dependency.

What truly bothers me is the lack of representation of these facts in movies, documentations available to the public, and historical dramatizations. It shouldn't take me wandering upon these facts hidden in PBS's archives to enlighten me of atrocities committed by countries I used to consider to be Morally just.
Atrocities like selling iron? What a good movie that would make.

Except for how Canadians actually fought and defeated Germany, and helped liberate the concentration camps.
Yeah, we weren't all bad...but we sure don't rush to teach kids how our racist immigration policies literally returned refugees to be exterminated.

Actually, quite a few people have made some good comments. You, despite being the OP, can not dictate the manner in which people must discuss this topic. If they choose to bring up the US, or Canada, or Burkina Faso they can...as long as their posts are relevant to the topic...and in many cases it has been in a comparative sense. I say Canada did worse than Sweden. That is not straying from the topic, and you really need to refrain from calling everyone 'dumb' for not jumping on your bandwagon. Don't like it? Take it to moderation.
I don't mind if people want to mention America in a post, or to say we have commited atrocities in the past. We all know it's true.

But when all you post is "So what? America did it too" then I , in turn, have the right to say what a horible and pointless argument it is. Or do only other people have that right here?

Yeah, we weren't all bad...but we sure don't rush to teach kids how our racist immigration policies literally returned refugees to be exterminated.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. ;)

Would you rather Sweden died economically? That was basically the situation.
Isn't that kinda like "Give me liberty or give me death?" I'd rather die honorably than help a nation that exterminates people in gas chambers based only on their religion.

I don't mind if people want to mention America in a post, or to say we have commited atrocities in the past. We all know it's true.

But when all you post is "So what? America did it too" then I , in turn, have the right to say what a horible and pointless argument it is. Or do only other people have that right here?
Sure you can say that. But we don't have to agree.

And it's not...'so what'...it's more of a 'are you kidding? Ball bearings?'

Seriously...not a big deal. Certainly not something worth a movie. Now Switzerland...there's a country that needs a bit of a bitch slap...still. Sorry...I don't see how you count the little trade that Sweden did as 'an atrocity'. Our attempts at introducing comparisons are to bring some perspective into this.

Would you rather Sweden died economically? That was basically the situation.
Sweden didn't have to trade with Nazi germany because of economic reasons. Basically Sweden plays both sides of the fence. It stayed neutral, protecting it's own citizens from having to fight and counted on the Allies to save it. It made zero sacrifices in defeating Nazi Germany and was one of the few European countries not to suffer during World War II. Sweden basically BOUGHT OFF the Nazis with their trade dealings.

Atrocities like selling iron? What a good movie that would make.
Kinda funny. When you call the act of helping to fund a war machine bent on the extermination of an entire race of people "Selling Iron" it kinda loses it's edge, doesn't it?

Weren't the americans selling arms to both sides until they got drawn into the conflict?

True. I hear the Bush family was a big backer of the Nazis, actually.

Kinda funny. When you call the act of helping to fund a war machine bent on the extermination of an entire race of people "Selling Iron" it kinda loses it's edge, doesn't it?Not really.

Isn't that kinda like "Give me liberty or give me death?" I'd rather die honorably than help a nation that exterminates people in gas chambers based only on their religion.
Oh come on now...so many countries refused to believe that there were exterminations going on...and the real evidence was not uncovered until the Nazi's fell.

However, as refugees started flooding out, most nations began to hear the stories of atrocities...and reacted. Your second source has this to say:

Despite the record of economic Nazi succor, the U.S. report said, the neutral nations at the same time helped refugees escape almost certain death in concentration camps where 6 million Jews were exterminated.

Spain helped 30,000-40,000 refugees; Portugal allowed 5,000 to pass through to America; Sweden saved 7,000 Danish Jews and 20,000-30,000 in Hungary; Turkey helped 100,000 flee; and Argentina accepted 25,000-45,000 Jews, the most of any Western nation during the war.

The United States accepted only 21,000 Jewish refugees during the war, without significantly raising or even filling quotas.

"America's response to the early stages of the slaughter of European Jews was largely one of indifference," said Eizenstat, who heads the U.S. government team reassessing wartime actions.
So when we bring up the US, it's with good reason.

Sure you can say that. But we don't have to agree.

And it's not...'so what'...it's more of a 'are you kidding? Ball bearings?'

Seriously...not a big deal. Certainly not something worth a movie. Now Switzerland...there's a country that needs a bit of a bitch slap...still. Sorry...I don't see how you count the little trade that Sweden did as 'an atrocity'. Our attempts at introducing comparisons are to bring some perspective into this.
I find it sad that you are defending people who haven't put any argument into a post other than to say "America was bad too, so there!", yet you actually HAVE contributed in a positive way. I never claimed that YOU were making off topic, pointless posts. I actually appreciated your input. And then you go and insult me for trying to keep people from turning this into yet another "Bash America" thread. The people I was referring to basically said "So what, everyone does it" Thanks for the baseless attack. :rolleyes:

Kinda funny. When you call the act of helping to fund a war machine bent on the extermination of an entire race of people "Selling Iron" it kinda loses it's edge, doesn't it?
I wonder if, in the next century or so, all the countries happily buying blood diamonds and funding the various conflicts in Africa will be discussed this way? I certainly hope they'll be called to task eventually.

Sweden apparently is investigating it's involvement...a good step I think. Canada has yet to do so. I suppose our involvement in the war absolves us?

Sweden didn't have to trade with Nazi germany because of economic reasons. Basically Sweden plays both sides of the fence. It stayed neutral, protecting it's own citizens from having to fight and counted on the Allies to save it. It made zero sacrifices in defeating Nazi Germany and was one of the few European countries not to suffer during World War II. Sweden basically BOUGHT OFF the Nazis with their trade dealings.

Sweden did everything in its power to remain out of a vastly destructive war that consumed most of Europe, and it succeeded. This was a success, it protected its citizens and in the end that is all that counts.

I find it sad that you are defending people who haven't put any argument into a post other than to say "America was bad too, so there!", yet you actually HAVE contributed in a positive way. I never claimed that YOU were making off topic, pointless posts. I actually appreciated your input. And then you go and insult me for trying to keep people from turning this into yet another "Bash America" thread. The people I was referring to basically said "So what, everyone does it" Thanks for the baseless attack. :rolleyes:
You must have forgot to quote the 'baseless attack' I made, because I don't see one anywhere in what you quoted.

So when we bring up the US, it's with good reason.
Yes, and when you do it, it is in a coherent and applicable manner. Others however..............

Yes, and when you do it, it is in a coherent and applicable manner. Others however..............
No point in railing too hard against it...ALL threads have people making comments, rather than points. Learn to live with it, and your blood pressure will thank you.

I wonder if, in the next century or so, all the countries happily buying blood diamonds and funding the various conflicts in Africa will be discussed this way? I certainly hope they'll be called to task eventually.

1) I boycott diamonds. Ask my wifewhat's on her engagment ring. It isn't a diamonds
2)Someone will probably bring it up, but it will invariably turn into a Bash America party, and no one will be taken to task. I was gonna keep going down the list of nations who helped the Nazis, but now that I see the wonderful way in which it is recieved, I'm gonna nix that off my list. I guess we'll stick with Chuck Norris threads around here so no one is offended. :headbang:

No point in railing too hard against it...ALL threads have people making comments, rather than points. Learn to live with it, and your blood pressure will thank you.
People comment. Yes. I comment back. And then I get attacked for it, and accused of trying to bait a poster I don't even care to argue with.

1) I boycott diamonds. Ask my wifewhat's on her engagment ring. It isn't a diamonds
2)Someone will probably bring it up, but it will invariably turn into a Bash America party, and no one will be taken to task. I was gonna keep going down the list of nations who helped the Nazis, but now that I see the wonderful way in which it is recieved, I'm gonna nix that off my list. I guess we'll stick with Chuck Norris threads around here so no one is offended. :headbang:
Frankly, I think you should be able to understand why we assume this is an attempt to bait Fass. If you want to discuss the 'neutral' nations and how they were involved in the Nazi war machine, you might do better to mention a bunch of them, rather than just one in particular. It would be interesting...because neutrality doesn't mean what many people thinks it means.

Had you mentioned Switzerland...I doubt you would have had this reception...and it's not because we all love Sweden.

I was gonna keep going down the list of nations who helped the Nazis, but now that I see the wonderful way in which it is recieved, I'm gonna nix that off my list. I guess we'll stick with Chuck Norris threads around here so no one is offended. :headbang:
Oh Boo-fucking-Hoo once again.

Oh Boo-fucking-Hoo once again.
Bite me.

Frankly, I think you should be able to understand why we assume this is an attempt to bait Fass. If you want to discuss the 'neutral' nations and how they were involved in the Nazi war machine, you might do better to mention a bunch of them, rather than just one in particular. It would be interesting...because neutrality doesn't mean what many people thinks it means.

Had you mentioned Switzerland...I doubt you would have had this reception...and it's not because we all love Sweden.
HERE (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/etc/map4.html) is the link I found that prompted me to start the thread. What is the title of the article? Look into things before you make accusations.

Bite me.
I would, but you are just too slippery for me to do that. Let's see.. "Swedens Nazi past" was the thread title... Have you convinced anyone about Sweden's Nazi past?. I seriously doubt it.

Talk about absolutes, the Nazi's were bad so anyone who traded with them is also bad, I think a little bit of respect for Swedens position in WWII would be good. Remember the US gave the Taliban arms to combat the expansionistic USSR, any nation will do something if it's in their best interests, no matter how bad it is. The USSR signed the Nazi-Soviet Pact remember, Stalin said himself he never trusted Hitler and Ribbontrop, but he did it in the best interests of his country, to make military preparation for the inevitable German invasion. Most of the post seem to deal with these matters on moral absolutes, I think you need to look at a situation before you judge it's 'righteousness', no country is perfect so noone has the right to preach the goods and bads. Anyway the Germans only wanted living space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum), only kidding:) ...

HERE (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/etc/map4.html) is the link I found that prompted me to start the thread. What is the title of the article? Look into things before you make accusations.
I read the articles...but your thread addresses only Sweden.

I read the articles...but your thread addresses only Sweden.
I realize that. I really didn't know too much about any of it until I read the article, which has SWEDEN written at the top of it. I'm not up on history too well, considering I've had to work since I was 16 to support myself. Ive never had time for history until now, and I'm TRYING to learn. I was hoping for a little enlightenment, not a bunch of accusations about my character. I started with Sweden because Sweden was the first nation I read of that was involved. As I said, I would have addressed the others in due time, but I've always been taught that the best way to discuss a complex problem is to break it down, and take the parts on one by one.

There are easier ways of telling a person that there are more people or nations involved in a situation. You could start by stating it politely.

There are easier ways of telling a person that there are more people or nations involved in a situation. You could start by stating it politely.
OK. So Sweden happened to be the first country you read about in that Frontline site you accidentally happened to stumble into. Alphabetically that makes sense. I'm so sorry then. Carry on.

There are easier ways of telling a person that there are more people or nations involved in a situation. You could start by stating it politely.
Please don't lecture me on being polite until you are better at it yourself.

I realize that. I really didn't know too much about any of it until I read the article, which has SWEDEN written at the top of it. I'm not up on history too well, considering I've had to work since I was 16 to support myself. Ive never had time for history until now, and I'm TRYING to learn. I was hoping for a little enlightenment, not a bunch of accusations about my character. I started with Sweden because Sweden was the first nation I read of that was involved. As I said, I would have addressed the others in due time, but I've always been taught that the best way to discuss a complex problem is to break it down, and take the parts on one by one.

There are easier ways of telling a person that there are more people or nations involved in a situation. You could start by stating it politely.

I think there are easier ways to learn history than reading that Sweden traded iron to the Nazis during the war and then jumping on the internet, raving about Sweden's nazi past. But whatever works for you, I suppose.

Anyway, it's not like it's some big, shady secret that Sweden traded with the Nazis during the war.

OK. So Sweden happened to be the first country you read about in that Frontline site you accidentally happened to stumble into. Alphabetically that makes sense. I'm so sorry then. Carry on.
If you learned to read, you'd see I said link, not site. It was a LINK! TO THAT PAGE! Go get yourself some hooked on phonics. :rolleyes:

Please don't lecture me on being polite until you are better at it yourself.
Please don't attack me out of no where with accusations that are untrue and expect me to be polite in response.

If you learned to read, you'd see I said link, not site. It was a LINK! TO THAT PAGE! Go get yourself some hooked on phonics. :rolleyes:
Again, you insult, when an effort was actually made to apologise for jumping to conclusions. And you wonder why people react to you in a negative manner? You reap what you sow.

I think there are easier ways to learn history than reading that Sweden traded iron to the Nazis during the war and then jumping on the internet, raving about Sweden's nazi past. But whatever works for you, I suppose.

Anyway, it's not like it's some big, shady secret that Sweden traded with the Nazis during the war.
I'll learn my history any damn way I please, thank you. And it may not have been a secret, but it's news to me. I haven't spent my life with my nose in a history book. I had more important things to do, like work to pay my bills.

Please don't attack me out of no where with accusations that are untrue and expect me to be polite in response.
And I ask you to do the same...by not accusing people of being of low intelligence...telling them they need to 'get hooked on phonics'...look, it boils down to this. You expect...no, demand respect from us, when you seem incapable of behaving respectfully yourself. It's a two-way street, but you want it to be one-way. Not going to happen.

In any case, I've exhausted any limited interest I had in this topic.

If you learned to read, you'd see I said link, not site. It was a LINK! TO THAT PAGE! Go get yourself some hooked on phonics. :rolleyes:
Right-O. Got it. You just were rummaging around searching for Sweden/Nazi related stuff. There's no other way I can imagine you found just that page of that Frontline site. Not like you have some special interest regarding Sweden... say... Fass...

Again, you insult, when an effort was actually made to apologise for jumping to conclusions. And you wonder why people react to you in a negative manner? You reap what you sow.
Are you saying you didn't get the sarcasm in what he posted to me?

Right-O. Got it. You just were rummaging around searching for Sweden/Nazi related stuff. There's no other way I can imagine you found just that page of that Frontline site. Not like you have some special interest regarding Sweden... say... Fass...
Keep thinking what you want. I can't stand Fass. I find him smug and egotistical. Thats well known, and I'll be the first to admit it!. But I never brought up his name. Not once. And frankly, I don't care what the fuck he thinks about it. Are you saying I can't bring up the name of an entire country without it being directed at a certain poster? I think maybe your the one with a Fass fetish. ;)


And BTW, I WAS searching for Nazi/Sweden related articles, because I heard of the link between them from my brother in law just a bit ago on instant messenger while we were discussing WW2. So ya, you got me. I was searching for Sweden/Nazi! :rolleyes:

Keep thinking what you want. I can't stand Fass. Thats well known. But I never brought up his name. Not once. And frankly, I don't care what he thinks about it. Are you saying I can't bring up the name of an entire country without it being directed at a certain poster? I think maybe your the one with a Fass fetish. ;)
True. Maybe I do have a Fass fetish. Anywho, thanks for playing - 'twas fun. Me, I'm off... it seems to be morning.

As tempting as this, slamming Sweden just to spite Fass, I think I'll have to pass, nonetheless. But I have to say that it is rather pointless to even speculate about Sweden's possible collaboration with the Nazis. If there was a time when it was relevant, that passed a long time ago.

And, as someone had already pointed out before, there is no nation on the planet in recorded history that is without blemish.

As tempting as this, slamming Sweden just to spite Fass, I think I'll have to pass, nonetheless. But I have to say that it is rather pointless to even speculate about Sweden's possible collaboration with the Nazis. If there was a time when it was relevant, that passed a long time ago.

And, as someone had already pointed out before, there is no nation on the planet in recorded history that is without blemish.
I agree that no nation is without blame in this world, but your point about it being passed the time of relevance, I disagree.

Like I said a few posts back. "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." So when a nation claims to be "neutral", I will never take my eyes off them, because it might just not be so. *coughFrancecough*

I agree that no nation is without blame in this world, but your point about it being passed the time of relevance, I disagree.

Like I said a few posts back. "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." So when a nation claims to be "neutral", I will never take my eyes off them, because it might just not be so. *coughFrancecough*

Or *coughSwitzerlandcough* for that matter......

I agree that no nation is without blame in this world, but your point about it being passed the time of relevance, I disagree.

Like I said a few posts back. "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." So when a nation claims to be "neutral", I will never take my eyes off them, because it might just not be so. *coughFrancecough*
whencoughdidcoughFrancecoughevercoughdeclaredcoughtocoughbecoughneutral

Or *coughSwitzerlandcough* for that matter......
Good point! ;) I wonder how many terrorists have Swiss bank accounts. :eek:

whencoughdidcoughFrancecoughevercoughdeclaredcoughtocoughbecoughneutral
Oh, right. They showed what side they were on with the oil for food program. Sorry about that! ;)

Sweden didn't have to trade with Nazi germany because of economic reasons. Basically Sweden plays both sides of the fence. It stayed neutral, protecting it's own citizens from having to fight and counted on the Allies to save it. It made zero sacrifices in defeating Nazi Germany and was one of the few European countries not to suffer during World War II. Sweden basically BOUGHT OFF the Nazis with their trade dealings.

Not entirely true... someone else said it best when they said Sweden (and to a greater extent Switzerland) they "vigorously" defended their neutrality - you can do a breif search of Luftwaffe records and find many accounts of planes being shot at for crossing into their airspace - or for that matter the dozens that were shotdown for crossing into "neutral" airspace.

Some on this thread seem to be up in arms about certain nations claiming to be neutral, but still having dealings with the Nazis - I'd like someone then to name on neutral nation in the western hemisphere that didn't.

1st of all Nordics are not stuck up
2nd Sweden is an AWESOME country my cousins live there and they are really nice. And yeah they get alot of things free but they have a better system than the us if you ask me

Oh, right. They showed what side they were on with the oil for food program. Sorry about that! ;)

Well no more so than some of the US oil companies... oh wait their names (along with some UK ones) were blacked out on the lust released to the American media... so maybe this is the reason your on a little mission to blacken Sweden's name further - big, bad Sweden has been critical of lil'ol Bushie and American foreign policy of late - so in a now classic manner of dealing with it: slam, slander, and insult those who dare question America :rolleyes:

Well no more so than some of the US oil companies... oh wait their names (along with some UK ones) were blacked out on the lust released to the American media... so maybe this is the reason your on a little mission to blacken Sweden's name further - big, bad Sweden has been critical of lil'ol Bushie and American foreign policy of late - so in a now classic manner of dealing with it: slam, slander, and insult those who dare question America :rolleyes:
Dude, if you think this is some grand conspiracy to blacken the name people or nations who are critical of America or Bush, there are alot more important nations to deal with than Sweden. :rolleyes:

1st of all Nordics are not stuck up
2nd Sweden is an AWESOME country my cousins live there and they are really nice. And yeah they get alot of things free but they have a better system than the us if you ask me
WTF are you talking about? When did I say I hated Sweden or Nordics in general?

Yeah, we weren't all bad...but we sure don't rush to teach kids how our racist immigration policies literally returned refugees to be exterminated.

Lucky you, most of the educators here in America jump on every oppertunity to demonize America.


Anyways,

Sweeden was pretty much surrounded by Nazi-"sympathizing" governments. They didn't have too much of a choice, trade-wise.

And seriously, folks, stop demonizing Switzerland. Simply because they've been nutural for every major global conflict doesn't mean they're evil. (Well, there WAS that Napoleon fiasco...but meh) Sure, they hoarded Nazi Germany's money, but if the US asked, they'd do it for them, too. They don't care. As long as you don't break any of Switzerland's domestic rules, everything is A-O.K.

And seriously, folks, stop demonizing Switzerland. Simply because they've been nutural for every major global conflict doesn't mean they're evil. (Well, there WAS that Napoleon fiasco...but meh) Sure, they hoarded Nazi Germany's money, but if the US asked, they'd do it for them, too. They don't care. As long as you don't break any of Switzerland's domestic rules, everything is A-O.K.
My problem with Switzerland is not just the Nazis...it's the Pinochets and assorted other dictators and scumbags (yes, including USians...and no doubt some bastard Canadians too) that also happily house their stolen money in Swiss bank accounts. The Swiss need to be more forthcoming in turning that stolen money over when asked.

My problem with Switzerland is not just the Nazis...it's the Pinochets and assorted other dictators and scumbags (yes, including USians...and no doubt some bastard Canadians too) that also happily house their stolen money in Swiss bank accounts. The Swiss need to be more forthcoming in turning that stolen money over when asked.

I disagree. I'm not exactly positive, but the Swiss banks are private corporations, if I recall correctly, so a nation can't just demand that they turn the money over. And to be honest, unless it's electronic, I wonder if some of the people in the banks even know what is deposited.

I disagree. I'm not exactly positive, but the Swiss banks are private corporations, if I recall correctly, so a nation can't just demand that they turn the money over. And to be honest, unless it's electronic, I wonder if some of the people in the banks even know what is deposited.
Exactly...the bank secret is a vital thing in Switzerland, and one the Swiss have been proud of for centuries - when all other governments were quite happy to do whatever they wanted with the money in their banks, the Swiss government kep out of it.
It's a matter of principle...something that doesn't seem to be around much anymore these days.

As for Sweden...what was the purpose of that post if it wasn't to somehow blacken the country's name?
Of course they traded with Germany - it's what being "neutral" means...but I guess to the US that meant something else entirely.
And even if, trading with someone is not exactly helping them to commit genocide - and if it is, then the question is what to say to the various US Firms who were happy to make business with the Nazis (including IBM, but I'm pretty sure someone would've mentioned it already in this thread).

Exactly...the bank secret is a vital thing in Switzerland, and one the Swiss have been proud of for centuries - when all other governments were quite happy to do whatever they wanted with the money in their banks, the Swiss government kep out of it.
It's a matter of principle...something that doesn't seem to be around much anymore these days.

Indeed, principle, what a novel idea. Honesty, et al. The banks promised to keep the money secure, they go the extra mile to fulfill their promise. THat's the kind of bank I want.

As for Sweden...what was the purpose of that post if it wasn't to somehow blacken the country's name?
Of course they traded with Germany - it's what being "neutral" means...but I guess to the US that meant something else entirely.
And even if, trading with someone is not exactly helping them to commit genocide - and if it is, then the question is what to say to the various US Firms who were happy to make business with the Nazis (including IBM, but I'm pretty sure someone would've mentioned it already in this thread).

Heck, Henry Ford was a sympathizer. A lot of Americans were.

So someone who refuses to take sides is more principled than someone who refuses to gain financially from mass murderers? Nice fucking principles you got there!

Dude, if you think this is some grand conspiracy to blacken the name people or nations who are critical of America or Bush, there are alot more important nations to deal with than Sweden. :rolleyes:
Like Poland.

Like Poland.
As much as I wanted to post something about your sarcasm, I have to admit, that made me "laugh out loud" :D I can't believe I forgot Poland. :D

Indeed, principle, what a novel idea. Honesty, et al. The banks promised to keep the money secure, they go the extra mile to fulfill their promise. THat's the kind of bank I want.

I don't think it's wrong that they protect money that they promised to protect. Hell, I want a bank like that too! I take offense with the fact that they promised to protect Nazi money in the first place.

So someone who refuses to take sides is more principled than someone who refuses to gain financially from mass murderers? Nice fucking principles you got there!
It's neutrality. That's a principle.

The other one is the idea that the government keep its hand out of private people's bank account. That too is a principle.

Deciding that A is evil one day and screwing with both principles mentioned above is not a principle.

Read this (http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/whatis.htm), and you'll see.

So someone who refuses to take sides is more principled than someone who refuses to gain financially from mass murderers? Nice fucking principles you got there!

As stated, most employees didn't know who put in what, how much, or where. You've got an account number, that's pretty much the only link they have on you -- the fact that there is an account number. Granted, if it's electronic wired cash, they could track it, but if it's a saftey deposit box/vault, you're kinda screwed if you're trying to figure out where the hell is.

It's not a matter of "hey look, it's money, who cares if he's a genocidal maniac?", it's a matter of "Huh, five new customers today. Now where'd my sports page go?" Most if not all people [I]didn't know what was going in or out, or who was making the transactions.

Posting from cell phone so can't comment much atm, other than to point out inaccurate nature of thread title and to ponder what sort of person would find this news, as this has never been secret and most here are aware of the contrast between this and our role in smuggling and protecting jews etc, not to mention Swedish role in eugenics "research." So, the point here, other than using old, old non-news to attempt to troll, eludes me.

Posting from cell phone so can't comment much atm
Now there is commitment for you. :D

other than to point out inaccurate nature of thread title and to ponder what sort of person would find this news, as this has never been secret and most here are aware of the contrast between this and our role in smuggling and protecting jews etc, not to mention Swedish role in eugenics "research." So, the point here, other than using old, old non-news to attempt to troll, eludes me.
http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Wow, on a cell phone, NSaholic. :D

I was wondering when you'd come around, Fass.

Posting from cell phone so can't comment much atm, other than to point out inaccurate nature of thread title and to ponder what sort of person would find this news, as this has never been secret and most here are aware of the contrast between this and our role in smuggling and protecting jews etc, not to mention Swedish role in eugenics "research." So, the point here, other than using old, old non-news to attempt to troll, eludes me.
God Fass, you skim NS on your cell? GET A LIFE:D *says the woman who should have been in bed three hours ago*

I have Opera mini on cell coupled with English t9 dict, so it's not that painful. This is what happens when your one night stand has no computer (crazy motha!) and you are post-coitally unsleepy and bored. :/

Posting from cell phone so can't comment much atm, other than to point out inaccurate nature of thread title and to ponder what sort of person would find this news, as this has never been secret and most here are aware of the contrast between this and our role in smuggling and protecting jews etc, not to mention Swedish role in eugenics "research." So, the point here, other than using old, old non-news to attempt to troll, eludes me.
Don't ya know? I DID IT ALL FOR YOU, FASS! :rolleyes:

You need to find some other boyfriend to stalk, then. It's not you, it's me. I'm just not into USian right-wing nutjobs. :P

You need to find some other boyfriend to stalk, then. It's not you, it's me. I'm just not into USian right-wing nutjobs. :P
Thats O.K. I'm not into socialistic effeminate Swedes who have one night stands with strange men! Make sure you wear a rain coat little buddy! ;)

Of course, ignore how the Swedish used their neutrality in the war to protect thousands of Jews and escaped allied POWs...

Oh, and three guesses to what Nazi Germany would have done had it been deprived of Swedish iron.

Thats O.K. I'm not into socialistic effeminate

Gee, I'm effeminate and socialistic, and apparently always the last to know these things about myself.

Swedes who have one night stands with strange men!

Of course with strange men. One night stands with people you know is kinda hard to pull off.

Make sure you wear a rain coat little buddy! ;)

Not to worry. We actually have sex-ed that works in this country, and none of that flawed "abstinence only" pseudo-religious puritanism I hear about.

This amusing thread makes me wonder if FireAntz is actually a member of Fred Phelps' Westborough Baptist Church. Nobody else has such a rabid hatred of Swedes.

God how they needed the Tungsten and Steel and Charlamagne.

Of course, ignore how the Swedish used their neutrality in the war to protect thousands of Jews and escaped allied POWs...

Oh, and three guesses to what Nazi Germany would have done had it been deprived of Swedish iron.
Lost the war very quickly?

So, to summarise this:

- A European nation, surrounded by a hostile nation and nations either directly or indirectly controlled by said nation

- This nation takes the perhaps not surprising decision to trade with Nazi Germany to ensure the safety of its country and citizens, as it has no allies and without trading will surely be invaded and subjugated, as its neighbours have by a seemingly undefeatable enemy

Thats hardly a big surprise. I challenge anyone here to say that, as the head of government of Sweden, they would do anything different given the situation and known facts.

So they traded with Nazi Germany? Its not like they turned the damn metal into weapons and gave them ammunition and started spouting anti-jewish propaganda, is it? Hell, most European countries did the same, and worse, so Sweden is hardly an exception, or even that big a participator. Canada, the United States, Russia, I believe even England traded with Nazi Germany to some extent (Though I'll have to research that more, as I know most was officially sanctioned)

This hardly makes it a 'Nazi Past', because by those loose definitions, every country in Europe and North America, including Canada, had a 'Nazi Past'.

-snippage-
So they traded with Nazi Germany? Its not like they turned the damn metal into weapons and gave them ammunition and started spouting anti-jewish propaganda, is it? Hell, most European countries did the same, and worse, so Sweden is hardly an exception, or even that big a participator. Canada, the United States, Russia, I believe even England traded with Nazi Germany to some extent (Though I'll have to research that more, as I know most was officially sanctioned)

This hardly makes it a 'Nazi Past', because by those loose definitions, every country in Europe and North America, including Canada, had a 'Nazi Past'.
The 88 was from a Swedish and German design from Bofors.(pretty sure)

If they had made a stand when Poland or France/Belgium where being over run or even Norway then who knows.

I as Leader of Sweden wouldnt have fought the Germans.

The 88 was from a Swedish and German design from Bofors.(pretty sure)
Meh, was a Krupp. All German AFAIK.

If they had made a stand when Poland or France/Belgium where being over run or even Norway then who knows.
Looking at Sweden's army, I don't think there would've been any suprises - considering that Finland was on the Axis' side too.

I'm surprised nobody has brough up the fact that Sweden did more than trade with the Nazis, we actually let 2 million! germantroops pass through on their way to Finland and Norway.
First in the later stages of the war when Germany had been weakend that we dared to refuse. The Swedish goverment also censured all newspapers and media so that the germans wouldn't be upset and turn on us.

If the goverment would have had alittle more balls at that time the war would have been considerably shortened, atleast I belive so.

Looking at Sweden's army, I don't think there would've been any suprises - considering that Finland was on the Axis' side too.
Yeah, after Norway fell, joining the Allies would have meant an invasion on all sides.

The 88 was from a Swedish and German design from Bofors.(pretty sure)

If they had made a stand when Poland or France/Belgium where being over run or even Norway then who knows.

I as Leader of Sweden wouldnt have fought the Germans.

Ah, well that I didn't know about, so thanks. However, my real point was the fact that, given Swedens extremely difficult situation, and the governments desire, like most I believe, to protect its people, the trading isn't that much of a surprise.

As for the Swedes making a stand....though I know little of their military, I doubt it would have made much of a difference. Perhaps it would have delayed the blitzkrieg a few more days, but it might also have given the Germans yet more bases to sortie out of to attack Britain and later allies. Alternate history is always a difficult art to master.

Meh, was a Krupp. All German AFAIK.


Looking at Sweden's army, I don't think there would've been any suprises - considering that Finland was on the Axis' side too.
Yeah your are right the Swedes cant fight we should be under no illusions about this.

Look, Fireantz will be happy when someone completely ignores the facts and comparisons and does a nice post on how this has completely changed their view on Sweden and they are now going to boycott everything from that country and hate them forever.


Someone do it and we can all move on.

I found these sites about the Swedish Military in WWII.

600,000 is not bad...but they didn't seem to have many tanks, or planes, so chances are they would've been taken out in less than two months.
http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaron/sweeds.html
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/swmilair.htm

This non-secret, non-news has completely changed my view on Sweden and I am now going to boycott everything from this country and hate it forever.

Well, except sill och potatis, lussebullar, Lucia, the men, våfflor, the archipelagos, Midsummer, the cosiness, my friends, and some other things.

But I'll hate the royal family! Cursed symbol for this country I shall forever hate, above mentioned things and others excluded. Did you know the Queen is German? And we all know that means Nazi. I rest my case.

Did you know the Queen is German?

Heilige Scheiße! :eek:

Heilige Scheiße! :eek:

http://www.royalcourt.se/images/18.53abbbfd7ffdfa677fff24562/hmdgalawebbstor.jpg

Just look at our malevolent, über-mensch overlord and tell me her eyes do not shine of evil. May she burn in hell!

http://www.royalcourt.se/images/18.53abbbfd7ffdfa677fff24562/hmdgalawebbstor.jpg

Just look at our malevolent, über-mensch overlord and tell me her eyes do not shine of evil!. May she burn in hell!

Nazi bitch! ;)

]*snip*
Just look at our malevolent, über-mensch overlord and tell me her eyes do not shine of evil!. May she burn in hell!


I hear she still has Jewish slaves in her basement who are forced to smelt iron to send to germany.

Look, Fireantz will be happy when someone completely ignores the facts and comparisons and does a nice post on how this has completely changed their view on Sweden and they are now going to boycott everything from that country and hate them forever.


Someone do it and we can all move on.
I do not purchase from Sweden already.

I hear she still has Jewish slaves in her basement who are forced to smelt iron to send to germany.

See, of course those wily jews know how to achieve smelting temperature. And you know what else is creepy? The King is French! I don't think I need to say that it ain't the whipped dyslexic who wears the pants in that family.

*shifty eyes, whispers*

The new world order is upon us, and its name is Silvia Renate Sommerlath-Bernadotte!

Of course they traded with Germany - it's what being "neutral" means...but I guess to the US that meant something else entirely.


Thank you! We wouldn't have been neutral if we had stopped trading with Germany.

I'm surprised nobody has brough up the fact that Sweden did more than trade with the Nazis, we actually let 2 million! germantroops pass through on their way to Finland and Norway.
First in the later stages of the war when Germany had been weakend that we dared to refuse. The Swedish goverment also censured all newspapers and media so that the germans wouldn't be upset and turn on us.

If the goverment would have had alittle more balls at that time the war would have been considerably shortened, atleast I belive so.

Yes i can agree that letting german troops use sweden as a route to norway and finland wasn't a very neutral choice but look on the other side, Sweden had a population of about 6 500 000 inhabitants, wtf the city of London alone got more people in it. What would have happend if we resisted the Nazis, they would have invaded us and taken our iron anyway! If you look at the total death counts through the war, think it was around
50 000 000. I mean its 5.7 times more than our total population.

Further about our neutrality we was more aligned to germany in the begining of the war due to strong connections between our countrys not to mention that our royal family are and was very close to the nation of germany. As the war progressed though we moved closer to the allies.

It seems that Sweden, the supposed bastion of freedom in Europe, was directly involved in helping Adolph Hitler fund his murderous war machine, indirectly helping to kill hundreds of thousands of allies, and millions of Jews and other concentration camp victims.
Who ever called Sweden the bastion of freedom in Europe? It is really not. They have many laws regulating business, alcohol, drugs, etc...

In all likelihood, if Sweden refused to trade with the Nazis, the would have been invaded. Look at what happened to the other countries in the region.

What truly bothers me is the lack of representation of these facts in movies, documentations available to the public, and historical dramatizations.
I find that Sweden tends not to be represented in movies at all.

So if you have a low opinion of Sweden because of the actions of their government of three generations ago (who are all now dead), what do you think of Finland? (allied with Nazis to repel the USSR) How about Spain? (gave economic support to Germany and continued with fascism for 30 years after WWII) Hell, what do you think of Germany? (i don't even need to explain)

I'll finish with a tale of Raoul Wallenberg of Sweden

He was able to issue temporary Swedish "protective passports" claiming that the bearers were Swedish subjects awaiting repatriation. He also skillfully negotiated with Nazi officials such as Adolf Eichmann for the cancellation of deportations by playing on their fear of the consequences of having perpetrated war crimes. He is thought to have saved the lives of between 20,000 and 100,000 Jews and as such is generally considered one of the most notable heroes who directly fought against The Holocaust.

detailed version: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/wallenberg.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Wallenberg

As I am Turkish and as you know Turkey was indeed neutral in WWII, I'd like to share the wonderful story of an amazing man who has recently been awarded for his exceptional work.
Here is the story of an amazing Turkish diplomat:

Selahattin Ulkumen
Selahattin Ulkumen was the Turkish consul-general on the island of Rhodes which was under German occuaption. In late July 1944, the Germans began the deportation of the island’s 1,700 Jews. Ulkumen managed to save approximately 50 Jews, 13 of them Turkish citizens, the rest with some Turkish connection. In protecting those who were not Turkish citizens, he clearly acted on his own initiative. In one case, survivor Albert Franko was on a transport to Auschwitz from Piraeus. Whilst still in Greek territory, he was taken off the train thanks to the intervention of Ulkumen, who was informed that Franko’s wife was a Turkish citizen. Another survivor, Matilda Toriel relates that she was a Turkish citizen living in Rhodes and married to an Italian citizen. On July 18, 1944, all the Jews were told to appear at Gestapo headquarters the following day. As she prepared to enter the building, Ulkumen approached her and told her not to go in. It was the first time she had ever met him. He told her to wait until he had managed to release her husband. As her husband later told her, Ulkumen requested that the Germans release the Turkish citizens and their families, who numbered only 15 at the time. However, Ukumen added another 25-30 people to the list whom he knew had allowed their citizenship to lapse. The Gestapo, suspecting him, demanded to see their papers, which they did not have. Ulkumen however returned to the Gestapo building, insisting that according to Turkish law, spouses of Turkish citizens were considered to be citizens themselves, and demanded their release. Matilda later discovered that no such law existed, and that Ulkumen had simply fabricated it in order to save the Jews. In the end, all those on Ulkumen’s list were released. All the rest of the Jews on the island, some 1,700, were deported to Auschwitz.

It seems that Sweden, the supposed bastion of freedom in Europe, was directly involved in helping Adolph Hitler fund his murderous war machine, indirectly helping to kill hundreds of thousands of allies, and millions of Jews and other concentration camp victims.

As the Eizenstat Report details: "Sweden was a critical trading partner of Nazi Germany. Its exports of ball bearings to Germany were vitally important during the war, and for a time Sweden supplied Germany with 40 percent of its iron ore until other European sources reduced that dependency."

Without trade partners such as Sweden, Turkey, and Spain, and the generous holding of billions in plundered loot by Switzerland, who knows how many thousands of Allies would have been saved from the hell that was WW2?
Who knows how many millions would have been saved from gas chambers and ovens?

What truly bothers me is the lack of representation of these facts in movies, documentations available to the public, and historical dramatizations. It shouldn't take me wandering upon these facts hidden in PBS's archives to enlighten me of atrocities committed by countries I used to consider to be Morally just. Note that I said "used to".



Sources
1 (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/etc/map4.html)
2 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/02/us.nazi.gold/)

Interesting thread. FireAntz, you seem to really like accusing other countries. I'm sure you still hate today's Germany because of what the Third Reich did 60 years ago, don't you?

Other people in this thread as already mentioned all of what I'm going to say but anyway, let's get things straight. It is a known fact that Sweden traded iron ore with the Germans and even let Germany use Swedish railroads to transport troops into Norway and Finland. Just because you haven't seen it in any Hollywood movie doesn't mean you can't read about it in history books. Swedes of today don't like the fact that Sweden was forced to help Germany but generally think it was necessary to keep Sweden out of the war. See when WW2 began, Sweden's army was a joke and could in no way have repelled a German invasion. Basically what the Germans did was saying "give us your iron or else we'll invade". So Sweden gave them the iron.
However during the war, the Swedish army was built up and in 1945 when the Allies were winning and Sweden could defend itself, the help that the Germans received was cut. See Sweden wasn't the Nazi state that the title of this thread suggests - Sweden wanted the Allies to win. Your title is very unfair and I hope you realise Sweden was NOT sympathizing with the Nazis. Swedish volunteers even went to Norway to fight the Germans. And backed by their government, Swedes saved tens of thousands of Jews, mostly from Denmark and Hungary.

After the war, Sweden put a lot of effort in sheding light of how much help Germany had received. Sweden also became one of the most devouted member countries in the UN.

Long story short, Sweden did what was necessary to save its citizens from German rule, Sweden did what they could to save Jews and Sweden was NEVER on the Third Reich's side.

Sorry, but personally, I don't give two shits what Fass thinks. :rolleyes:
What do you have against Fass? *gangs up*

I think that sums it up a bit better. I think they need a little more capitalism though.
The people of Sweden disagree.

Liechtenstein.
The didn't let women vote until 1984. Their king/queen has not made an official appearance in 150 years.

Do people bait me when they post something about America?
You act like they do!

I'd rather someone post facts making everything I stated wrong, instaed of a bunch of low brow insults and a few posts from people who apparently worship Fass as the only thing mentionable about Sweden. It's a big country folks, and there are more then 1 persons in it.
Why are you only responding to the stupid, anti-American posts then?

What, are you unable to respond to the logical, intelligent posts?

I was gonna keep going down the list of nations who helped the Nazis
I don't believe you. It's obvious that you went after Sweden because they have a successful system that doesn't match your ideology, and that Fass lives there.

How do I know this? Because you blame the people of Sweden for the actions of their fathers.

Oh, right. They showed what side they were on with the oil for food program. Sorry about that! ;)
Follow your own advice and stay on topic!

tthe Swiss banks are private corporations, so a nation can't just demand that they turn the money over.
Yes, it can. When it's Nazis, dictators and terrorists we're talking about.

Yeah your are right the Swedes cant fight we should be under no illusions about this.
When it's against a superpower on all sides then obviously they cannot fight.

I do not purchase from Sweden already.
Yes, you purchase from more moral countries, like... China!

I am not in the least bit surprised that Sweden traded with the Germans. It was either that or the Germans would invade to take control of Sweden's rich supply of Iron ore (that passed through the Norwegian port of Narvik; a reason why the Germans invaded Norway). It needed to trade in order to maintain its neutrality and survival.

Sweden also played a part in the events of the holocaust, albeit a good part. They provided shelter and food to 95% of Denmark's Jews who fled as the holocaust began to gather steam.

I would hardly condemn Sweden for its actions during the war.

each and every country in europe helped in the nazis in some way at some point who fucking cares it happened let it go

each and every country in europe helped in the nazis in some way at some point who fucking cares it happened let it go

No, this is important. The vigilance must never cease. The sweets must pay. And the swittsians. And the ewzayans.



*goes away, feeling ashamed for not resisting the temptation*

I'm surprised nobody has brough up the fact that Sweden did more than trade with the Nazis, we actually let 2 million! germantroops pass through on their way to Finland and Norway.
First in the later stages of the war when Germany had been weakend that we dared to refuse. The Swedish goverment also censured all newspapers and media so that the germans wouldn't be upset and turn on us.

If the goverment would have had alittle more balls at that time the war would have been considerably shortened, atleast I belive so.

There is a good article on Swedens role during WW2 on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_during_World_War_II

I feel that it is legitimate to question Swedens claim to neutrality during WW2, but more due to the governments willingness to transport german troops through the country than their trade-policy.

Sweden wanted the Allies to win. Your title is very unfair and I hope you realise Sweden was NOT sympathizing with the Nazis.

This is an arguable claim. Many swedes did sympathize with Nazi Germany, and volunteers went from Sweden to join the fight on Germanys eastern front. Other swedes fought against the nazis. As far as I can tell, the swedish government was ambivalent as to which side they should support, if they ever had to abandon their policy of neutrality.

On the other hand, it is unquestionable that many swedes did a lot of great things and saved a lot of lives during the war.

Isn't that kinda like "Give me liberty or give me death?" I'd rather die honorably than help a nation that exterminates people in gas chambers based only on their religion.

I thought the Nazis had a problem with the "race of Jews" moreso than the "faith of Jews"?

Anyway, I know this was half the thread ago, but I really enjoyed this comment. I sincerely hope you're never put into a situation where you, personally, or your country needs to make this sort of choice, so that you can continue to cling to your - very comforting, I'm sure - delusions of nobility.

In all fairness, Finland was being attacked by a USSR bent on bringing them back under Russian control. It's amazing that they managed to hold back the might of the USSR, who were right on their doorstep even before Germany declared war on the USSR. And hardly surprising that Finland then had to side with Germany as the USSR joined the Allies.

Not that people have been up in flames about "Finland's Nazi past" in this thread. I just think that out of fairness to the Finns, they did the only thing they could to prevent being given membership in the Soviet Union for the foreseeable future.

Nazism was widely spread among swedes in the thirties, especially in Skania(there was even a plan to build a concentration camp here :eek: ). It's funny really. If you go up north, closer to Russia, people were more socialistic. But down south, a lot of people were nazis. I think it's because swedes are wimps (I should know, I'm one).

Before Stalingrad, Sweden was semi-allied with Germany. After Stalingrad, they suddenly turned to the allies. Why is that? :rolleyes:

....(I should know, I'm one).


A Swede or a wimp?

Yes the Finns actions are not condemnable, on one side you have the super aggressive expansionist USSR, and then you have a Nation that sends 3 million troops and attacks the USSR, I mean your enemies enemy is your friend.

But Sweden....... Well suffice to say that in the volunteer SS corps, there were only more French then Swedes, the Swedish goverment supported men to enlist in the Nazi SS lines (The German Army was for Germans only ((Wehrmacht))). The SS were as we all know para-troopers and military in nature, in the beginning all they did was mostly guard and occupy letting the Wehrmacht do the fighting, but in the latter years of the war they also fought. And back to the point, Swedes were very present (many foreigners from many nations enlisted in German lines, eg. Spaniards, Italians, Austrians, Balkan States (Serbie, montenegro, bosnia ,etc..). Of course many countries don't necessarily celebrate this fact, France the least, it is a fact that more French collaborated then resisted, in the last days, in the siege of Berlin, about 25% of the defenders were non-Germans, being composed mostly of French and Swedish volunteers, who where either returned to there nations after the war or shipped off to Siberia, depending who they were fighting.

As I believe has been said, every nation was somewhat supportive of the Nazis in its time, the Americans even had a Nazi Party the ANP in the 1930s, it is all wishy washy and everyone can get blamed, so best is not to attack anyone specifically.

It's time to invoke:
http://www.godwinslaw.org/logo.png

It's time to invoke:
http://www.godwinslaw.org/logo.png

Godwin's Law doesn't apply to threads which are actually about nazis and nazism. Otherwise, whats the point? The probability that a thread about nazism will mention nazism is 1? Brilliant, thanks, Godwin.

It's time to invoke:
http://www.godwinslaw.org/logo.png

I fail to see how that applies to this discussion at the present time?

A Swede or a wimp?
Swede. Hopefully I'm not a wimp.(At least I don't consider myself one, but I mostly have swedes to compare myself to, so... Who knows :confused:)

Yes, it can. When it's Nazis, dictators and terrorists we're talking about.

What are they going to do, invade? I think not.

I feel that it is legitimate to question Swedens claim to neutrality during WW2, but more due to the governments willingness to transport german troops through the country than their trade-policy. I agree.

As far as I can tell, the swedish government was ambivalent as to which side they should support, if they ever had to abandon their policy of neutrality.No, the Swedish government was pretty much bent on fighting against the Germans, should they become more aggressive. Sweden armed for war, and they did it not to fight the Allies.

Yeah, we weren't all bad...but we sure don't rush to teach kids how our racist immigration policies literally returned refugees to be exterminated.

After I posted, I realised I was being a jackass. Sorry. I agree, that turning away the ships was wrong - I was just out of focus. However, my social classes did learn about the jews being castaway from safety.

It's time to invoke:
http://www.godwinslaw.org/logo.png

Godwin's law is not something that can be invoked like a murder statute, but rather something that is, such as Newton's Third Law of Motion.

Oh, and the first person to try and invoke it ALSO loses, in case you forgot. :p

I'll learn my history any damn way I please, thank you. And it may not have been a secret, but it's news to me. I haven't spent my life with my nose in a history book. I had more important things to do, like work to pay my bills.


And bait people on internet discussion boards.

-snippage-
When it's against a superpower on all sides then obviously they cannot fight.


Yes, you purchase from more moral countries, like... China!
Sweden used to be a World Power under Gustav Adolphus but then they lost to Russia.
Purchasing of Chineses goods?-I do no such thing.
Actually my workplace uses Swedish goods.

Were did people get the idea Sweden is the best country in the world? We had nazis(still have some), we had commies(still have some), we had wars, we have racism. Everybody seems to agree that Sweden has a lot to live up to(which we haven't).

Purchasing of Chineses goods?-I do no such thing.

Wow, I didn't think that was possible, since China seems to be one of the main manufacturers of components and textile, so in a way everyone buys chinese goods

btw, there was more to WWII from the swedish point of view... many inhabitants of Sudeten lost everything they owned due to the Treaty of Versailles (ending WWI and transferring control of Sudeten to Tjechoslovakia) and were forced to emigrate... at least a considerable percentage moved to Sweden. Hitler promised the Sudeten to right this wrong (in their opinion) which made him a very plausible leader... people tend to believe whoever promises the best

Wow, I didn't think that was possible, since China seems to be one of the main manufacturers of components and textile, so in a way everyone buys chinese goods

btw, there was more to WWII from the swedish point of view... many inhabitants of Sudeten lost everything they owned due to the Treaty of Versailles (ending WWI and transferring control of Sudeten to Tjechoslovakia) and were forced to emigrate... at least a considerable percentage moved to Sweden. Hitler promised the Sudeten to right this wrong (in their opinion) which made him a very plausible leader... people tend to believe whoever promises the best
I'll let you get away with that first point seeing a you don't know me.
Welcome.

True, Sweden was an important source of iron and other materials for Nazi Germany, but it hardly makes Sweden Nazi. It was a very simple choice of to refuse selling and be invaded, or sell and stay independent. Plus, I'd like to remind that the true horror of the Nazi regime wasn't known until towards the end of the war

Lost the war very quickly?

And faced with losing the war very quickly, with troops in neighbouring Norway, what would they have done then, hmm?

Meh, it was rampant across Scandinavia: after all, where did the term 'quisling' come from?
Quisling was a norwegian motherfucker. Them swedes supposed to be neutral, actually they were scared shitless.

And faced with losing the war very quickly, with troops in neighbouring Norway, what would they have done then, hmm?
Sorry what do you mean?:confused:
Who has troops in Norway?
Norway,Germany or Sweden?

Funny how this thread developed from "I want to pummel and tease fass to flame me" to something entirely different...and back to the OP, these facts you show are widely known, so why not take some history classes or next time look up before ranting?

Those damn Nordics. Thinking they are superior...pfft everyone knows that being Germanic is where its at.
Germanic includes the entire german race, including Germany, Holland, Austria, Belgium, Liecthenstein, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Finland and Britain (Britain has anglo-saxon/viking heritage), and by extension, South African Afrikaaners.

May I remind those of you here who accuse Sweden, that nearly all of Europe sided with the Nazis, either behind-the-scenes or outwardly, or due to fear of Germany's power. Britain's Crown monarch almost struck a deal with them. Why? Everyone hated the Jews and Communists, and liked the Nazi alternative. They had no idea how brutal it truly was. Few countries truly opposed the Nazis, such as France, and as we know, France at the time was economically and politically paralysed due to a late Depression.

I love Sweden, and I think it has already achieved much other nations dream of. True to the Germanic race's nature, the Swedes were a warrior people, and continue to maintain a gorgeous nation. Unlike many others out there.

the horse is dead. at this point, we've equipped it in bondage gear and are beating it with a cat o' nine tails.

let the necrobeastiality go, people.

the horse is dead. at this point, we've equipped it in bondage gear and are beating it with a cat o' nine tails.

let the necrobeastiality go, people.
You dont know how much fun it is to beat a horse.

Sorry what do you mean?:confused:
Who has troops in Norway?
Norway,Germany or Sweden?

Germany.

If Sweden refused to trade the ore, it would have been rather simple for the Germans to seize it for themselves. The Germans had triumphed over stronger military forces before, after all, and were in the favourable position of being able to deny Sweden any support from the Allies and completely isolating them by blocking off the Kattegat strait (between Norway and Denmark). Sweden's reaction was only natural under these circumstances, but it managed to use its neutrality to indirectly support the allies by providing a safe haven for fleeing Jews and escaped allied POWs.

escaped allied POWs.


Getting to sweden would get you home much much faster than getting to Switzerland if you were an escaped POW.

Indeed, Germany had overcome Russia in WW 1 and could have crushed the Empire, had it not been for the 2 million american troops that were poured into the Continent. A tragedy that this affair was not left to the Continent to decide. :rolleyes: Powers would balance, and would remain in our hands. Nevertheless, Germany is very similar to ancient Greece in its nature as a warrior race. Sweden would be in a nasty position if it chose to oppose Germany. Yet, being of the same racial origin as Germany, and of significance to Hitler as one of the purest Germanic races, I doubt he would have damaged it...too badly. :p Germany's largest mistake is that it takes on too many forces at once...and whilst she does so with remarkable tenacity, its still a foolish thing to do. The Empire was formed by Divide and Conquer, not conquer them all in one go.

Germany.

If Sweden refused to trade the ore, it would have been rather simple for the Germans to seize it for themselves. The Germans had triumphed over stronger military forces before, after all, and were in the favourable position of being able to deny Sweden any support from the Allies and completely isolating them by blocking off the Kattegat strait (between Norway and Denmark). Sweden's reaction was only natural under these circumstances, but it managed to use its neutrality to indirectly support the allies by providing a safe haven for fleeing Jews and escaped allied POWs.
Also supplying SS Units.*shifty eyes*
Didnt i already concede the point?

Didnt i already concede the point?

Probably. Do you really think I can be arsed reading 13 pages? :p

Of slightly less relevance, didn't South Africa express support for the Nazi regime? It had long been practising race separation policies, and as a germanic nation (Afrikaaners at least, being of dutch lineage), it had Nazi sympathies. I'm an Afrikaaner (well European now), but I have no accurate knowledge of this.

Probably. Do you really think I can be arsed reading 13 pages? :p


It's only been 5 pages :p




I have it set to 40 replies a page.

It's only been 5 pages :p




I have it set to 40 replies a page.
Hm....Can I be arsed changing that?

...yeah, why not.

Also in news: Queen Anne is dead. :D

DAMN YOU SWEDEN AND YOUR NAZI BALL BEARINGS!!!!

Please. Canada did even worse...we turned away Jews who tried to find refuge here. We are DIRECTLY responsible for deaths. And you need to stop trying to bait Fass...we ALL know what you're doing. Subtlety is clearly not your forte.

thats pretty much only because our prime minister was a HUGE anti-semite, bought every house around his so a jew couldnt live near him. besides doing nothing isnt as bad as giving the nazis the ability to actually shoot the jews

thats pretty much only because our prime minister was a HUGE anti-semite, bought every house around his so a jew couldnt live near him. besides doing nothing isnt as bad as giving the nazis the ability to actually shoot the jews

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmond Burke

Having actual Swedish blood in me but not actually living there (England), I knew it was no surprise that Sweden traded the iron ore, which is abundant in the north, to Germany, which they then transported to Narvik in Norway, which was Nazi-owned. And that Sweden allowed trains carrying troops to Norway and Finland. What I also know, but has not been picked up upon, is that this was backroom stuff, and the Swedish population never knew about the trains of troops. yes, you could see them moving through the country, but no-one knew that they were carrying Nazi troops.

It also would appear that given the small population for such a large country, it would have been easy for Germany to conquer Sweden had we not conceded the iron ore. And also, we were not the only country to do this.

Have any of you seen the filum "The Real Heroes of Telemark"? It is a film set in Norway, around the story of the destruction of Telemark, which was a warehouse and station shreathed in secrecy, as the Nazis were busy trying to create a weapon using what was known as "heavy water". Had the operation been successful, hitler would have had created the first atomic bomb.

The fact this was in Norway kind of eclipses anything even remotely considered sneaky that the Swedes did in the war.

Ah yes, I have seen a documentary on this heavy water you refer to. Quite interesting. Yet, unfortunately, it is the USA who constructed the first nuclear weapon, and might I say, its actions in Hiroshima make it no better than Hitler. American scientists knew very well what power this bomb would have, and in fact complained it was too weak. Yet they still used it on Japan. Had Hitler used this weapon on say, the USA, the world would never forgive Germany. This is what disgusts me so much, is that the victors always escape punishment. Stalin's Russia is arguably worse than Nazi Germany. It never paid for its crimes, and yet it expressly supported the Nazi regime via backroom deals, until Hitler turned on Stalin. To blame Sweden for any dealings is hypocritical and idiotic, if possible at all.

Sadly New Poitiers, most government actions in "democracies" go on behind the scenes even today. Governments, including the USA, UK, the EU's bureaucracy and so on continue disregarding the opinions of the populace, or at least of those so educated as to be able to offer sound suggestions, and blindly implement their own policies. The difference is, we elect them. :rolleyes:

You dont know how much fun it is to beat a horse.
I haven't got my turn in...

*whip* *whip* *whip* *whip* *beat* *beat* *beat* *beat*

*Cocks .45 calibre pistol*

'Now y'all just mosey on along now, y'hear? This here horse an' I got some talkin' to do, but res' assured its been beaten enough. Move along folks, don't dawdle. C'mere Betsie...

*Sound of gunshot*

*Cocks .45 calibre pistol*

'Now y'all just mosey on along now, y'hear? This here horse an' I got some talkin' to do, but res' assured its been beaten enough. Move along folks, don't dawdle. C'mere Betsie...

*Sound of gunshot*

I want a turn, too! *raises horse back to life, pulls out IMI .50AE Desert Eagle, shoots it in the eye*

I LOVE it! I write a post about Sweden, and their dealings with Nazi Germany, and instead of a hearty discussion on the merits of the post, or other facts to dispute it, I get "AMERICA DID BAD SHIT TOO, SO THERE!!!!!!"

Yet another reason why Americans are jingoistic. No matter what you say, America is brought up and shredded to disprove your point.

You people wonder why we solve problems with bombs. Talking just doesn't do anything but put up America as a target. WHAT THE FUCK does America have to do with Sweden's dealings with the Nazis? If you rape someone, does it make it OK if your neighbor rapes someone too?

The thread is about Sweden, like it or not.
u want to kno why? .U say that you consider that sweeden 2 be a morally wrong country because of they traded with nazis. The people trying 2 defend sweeden probably kno u r american, therefore they r gonna point it out that if u consider that sweeden is morally wrong 4 trading withnazis,so is america cause they did the same. also america was a big part of the fight against nazism, along side with Britain and the U.S.S.R, the fact they traded with them cld be used to prove that it is hardly that terrible a crime even there enemies (the Allies) did, wots so bad about sweeden doing it.

Well I live in Switzerland, and it is known very well here about the Nazi's billions. I seems like the swiss government charged jews escaping from Germany huge fees if they wanted to come here.

And arguably the USA is all the more so liable for doing so, as it was not under nearly as much pressure as Sweden.

Well I live in Switzerland, and it is known very well here about the Nazi's billions. I seems like the swiss government charged jews escaping from Germany huge fees if they wanted to come here.
That's nothing! My country killed like 200 000 people (Jews and Gypsies) and it never paid anybody anything up to this year. The Germans were paying compensations for victims on the Dnestr, but Romania claimed there was no Holocaust happening there.

Yes, in the grand scheme of things trading Iron is not really that horrendous. Especially when you consider that most of the Nazi atrocities didn't really come to light until after the war had ended.

And lets face it, in the whole of world war 2 most of the countries involved committed much worse crimes. As has already been said, the US, Canada and the UK all turned away boat loads of Jewish refugees. Most of the administration in Nazi occupied countries, such as France, was undertaken by nationals of that country. And lets not forget that the UK committed the worst non-nuclear bombing in history in Dresden. And then there's the US bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I think of course that the Axis powers were by far the worst offenders goes without saying.

The point is, no one comes off looking rosey from a war.

Edit - Ah yes, and come someone clarify a point? Norway; was it actually invaded, or voluntarily "occupied"?

The Allies were largely hypocritical. Britain favoured Germany's Nazi policies (albeit never supported their brutality), the USA hated communism as much as Hitler did and Russia was a tyranny under which 40 million Russians were killed and many nations oppressed, which was on the side of the Axis before Hitler aggravated Stalin. And as mentioned by other members, other nations eluded the scathing punishment inflicted upon Germany. Hardly a fair world, is it?

The Allies were largely hypocritical. Britain favoured Germany's Nazi policies (albeit never supported their brutality), the USA hated communism as much as Hitler did and Russia was a tyranny under which 40 million Russians were killed and many nations oppressed, which was on the side of the Axis before Hitler aggravated Stalin. And as mentioned by other members, other nations eluded the scathing punishment inflicted upon Germany. Hardly a fair world, is it?

Well...to be fair, I think that Germany probably deserved it more...


Although interestingly, I have read that the US pretty much held back on joining the war and providing assistance to the USSR in the hope that Germany would destroy them first. Then the US could have gone in and destroyed the much weakened Germany.

And possibly some of the punishment that other nations got was that they had Totalitarian governments imposed on them by the Red Army...but that's another story.

Thus the US acted in complete self-interest. Nothing new there. All nations act in this manner based on their Raison d'etre. Yet to claim moral righteousness in defeating the enemy when acting with such self-interest is wholly hypocritical.

The USSR never did pay for its crimes though, did it?

Indeed, Germany did receive due punishment, yet the fact that others escaped it is worrying.

Of slightly less relevance, didn't South Africa express support for the Nazi regime? It had long been practising race separation policies, and as a germanic nation (Afrikaaners at least, being of dutch lineage), it had Nazi sympathies. I'm an Afrikaaner (well European now), but I have no accurate knowledge of this.


I've heard that they did. And although that wouldn't surprise me any, I don't know for certain. I'll see if I can find anything.

Wouldn't surprise me either, I doubt you could find a nation more racist at the time than my homeland :p Hitler would have seen it as an aryan paradise, aside from the fact that we never killed all the blacks, even if we did oppress them.

Romania's contibution to the Holocaust:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ia%C5%9Fi_pogrom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Antonescu#Antonescu_and_the_Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdanovka

Who cares what sweden did during WWII. Hell, america gave aid to England and we were supposed to be neutral, TWICE. In world war 1 and 2. Before you start bashing other countries for helping someone you dont agree with, perhaps you should critique your own countries past and policies. And dont pull that morality crap on me either.

Sweden used to be a World Power under Gustav Adolphus but then they lost to Russia.
Purchasing of Chineses goods?-I do no such thing.
Actually my workplace uses Swedish goods.
So what countries do you buy from? Why the boycott of Swedish stuff?

Were did people get the idea Sweden is the best country in the world?
It must be those quality-of-life league tables. You're not perfect and have a lot of laws I don't like, but Sweden is a really picturesque country with nice cities and people.

What are they going to do, invade? I think not.
Surely you don't think that terrorists should be allowed to have bank accounts right under our noses, do you? Fuck corporate privacy, there's much more at stake.

Few countries truly opposed the Nazis, such as France, and as we know, France at the time was economically and politically paralysed due to a late Depression.
You're letting off France too lightly there. Unfortunately they had a lot of cowards who went along with all the Nazis told them. On the other hand, their resistance movement was widespread and unquestionably valiant.

You should give Britain more credit, they did actually suffer the blitz and fought it against great odds.

Of slightly less relevance, didn't South Africa express support for the Nazi regime? It had long been practising race separation policies, and as a germanic nation (Afrikaaners at least, being of dutch lineage), it had Nazi sympathies. I'm an Afrikaaner (well European now), but I have no accurate knowledge of this.
Officially, South Africa was on Britain's side because its government was mostly made up of white people of British descent. However, the Afrikaaner population often disagreed and there was an armed pro-Nazi movement among them (der Broderbund).

After the war the Afrikaaners took over the government and shut British people out of the country and implemented racism as a centrepiece of policy.

OH, btw, Norway was invaded by russia. It was part of the treaty that hitler and stalin had agreed upon.

My god. I didn't realize Romania did all of that.

Antonescu's government killed at least 280,000 to 380,000 Jews in Romania and the territories it occupied.

Some pretty sick people out there, I wonder how many other countries did all of these underhanded things that we don't 'know' about. Well, as they say, history is written by the victors of wars.

Hah, Nazi Germany invaded norway and denmark almost simultaneously. Sorry, Russia had attempted to take norway once before. Haven't looked into history in a little while.

My god. I didn't realize Romania did all of that.
Antonescu's government killed at least 280,000 to 380,000 Jews in Romania and the territories it occupied.
The really horrible thing is the number of people over here who still deny it on a regular basis - it has become criminalized just last year or so to spew denial theories in the media (and they do it more subtle as a consequence: they attack the people who expose it, without ever stating just why). This is the position that you'd expect in a German skinhead, right? Over here, it's people who are mildly conservative.

Some pretty sick people out there, I wonder how many other countries did all of these underhanded things that we don't 'know' about. Well, as they say, history is written by the victors of wars.
Some pretty sick people out here, indeed (me excluded, right?).
Also, we didn't really win the war: we just got trapped in a nebula after the Communists took over. They did carry out trials and executions of war criminals, but they had two major flaws: they were associated with Communist tutelage, which allows every piece of shit propagandist of today to say that they were biased (although they were provisioned by the Nurnberg system); they were not exhaustive, nor exposed, nor properly explained (it had to do with the Stalinist logic of viewing the War as a class conflict and the Nazis as class oppresors, disregarding their racial ideology as mere opium for the masses; it is also quite clear that Stalinsm had its own "anti-cosmopolitan" policies, which were in fact anti-Semitism).

Indeed, the world is devoid of any real sense of fairness. Funny how some people still have the arrogance to impose their beliefs via the guise of morality. :rolleyes:

OH, btw, Norway was invaded by russia. It was part of the treaty that hitler and stalin had agreed upon.
No, that was Poland.
Hah, Nazi Germany invaded norway and denmark almost simultaneously. Sorry, Russia had attempted to take norway once before. Haven't looked into history in a little while.
And that was Unternehmen Weserübung.

AFAIK, Russia (or the Soviet Union) has not tried to invade Norway. The Swedes had to cede Finland to the Russians, though - but that was a different time.

(BTW, if your name is supposed to mean 'Blood & War' the correct spelling would be 'Blut und Krieg' - but I can already tell you that I'm not even mildly amused.)

How could I have not noticed that? :rolleyes: Indeed, Poland's borders were agreed upon by Stalin and Hitler. I had not noticed that it referred to a pact between the two men. I think you are correct in your assertion that Russia has so far not tried to invade Norway.

Blood and War (Blot* und Krieg) is common to German war philosophy.

* With umlauten

How could I have not noticed that? :rolleyes: Indeed, Poland's borders were agreed upon by Stalin and Hitler. I had not noticed that it referred to a pact between the two men. I think you are correct in your assertion that Russia has so far not tried to invade Norway.

Blood and War (Blot* und Krieg) is common to German war philosophy.

* With umlauten
Here's what wikipedia says about the Hitler-Stalin-Pact and its additional secret protocol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

And there is no such thing as "Blood and War" being a German war philosophy. Where'd you get that from?

Now, "Blut und Boden" (=Blood and Soil) is a central idea of the nationalsocialist ideology - but that is something totally different.

And no, there are definitely no Umlaute in "Blut".

My god. I didn't realize Romania did all of that.

Antonescu's government killed at least 280,000 to 380,000 Jews in Romania and the territories it occupied.

Some pretty sick people out there, I wonder how many other countries did all of these underhanded things that we don't 'know' about. Well, as they say, history is written by the victors of wars.

The Tasmanian settlers wipe out the true blood Tasmanian Aboriginals. Completely.
Only true genocide I know of.
Incidentially supported by churchs and Britain.
Also before the federation of Australia so don't bitch at Australians, we did not do it
http://www.olestig.dk/tasmania/index.html

I'm well aware of the liaison between Hitler and Stalin. I studied Germany 1870-1941 for 2 years for my A levels, as well as Stalin's Russia and Parliamentary change in Britain (not fun!).

I remember both phrases, Blood and War and Blood and Soil, yet I cannot remember where I saw the former. It may be a mere obiter dictum of a german statesman I studied, not sure. Why do you find the phrase offensive then?

Hmm I am not sure which is the correct form of blood in German, I will have to ask a German on campus.

(...)
I remember both phrases, Blood and War and Blood and Soil, yet I cannot remember where I saw the former. It may be a mere obiter dictum of a german statesman I studied, not sure. Why do you find the phrase offensive then?
Hmm I am not sure which is the correct form of blood in German, I will have to ask a German on campus.
There's another phrase used as salutation by the Hitlerjugend which is "Blut und Ehre" (=Blood and Honor), maybe it's that one you meant?

I don't find the term "Blood and War" offensive - it's just stupid for it makes no sense whatsoever. Even an extended internet search* didn't yield any sensible results.

As for the Germans on campus, leave'em be - take it from the German you're talking with right here: "Blut" = blood; "bluten" = to bleed http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/shine.gif

*done in English and German

That is it! Blut und Ehre. I must have confused it. Blut und Krieg is rather idiotic as its simplistic.

Very well, I shall take your word for it :)

Surely you don't think that terrorists should be allowed to have bank accounts right under our noses, do you? Fuck corporate privacy, there's much more at stake.

Not particularly, no. But can a nation do? Nothing.

Well nothing until we gain more intelligence on the matter. The war against terrorism will be more an issue of secret agencies uncovering the terrorist web of deceit than an outright war between nations.

(...)
Have any of you seen the filum "The Real Heroes of Telemark"? It is a film set in Norway, around the story of the destruction of Telemark, which was a warehouse and station shreathed in secrecy, as the Nazis were busy trying to create a weapon using what was known as "heavy water". Had the operation been successful, hitler would have had created the first atomic bomb.
(...)
Interestingly enough, there's a documentary on German television about exactly that right now. Let's see if I can't learn something :D

Its an interesting subject. :)

Bump for the OP to hopefully respond

and could've England held out with even fewer troops and supplies during the Battle of Britain.
we only won the battle of britain because germany stopped bombing the airfields and started going for london

Meh, it was rampant across Scandinavia: after all, where did the term 'quisling' come from?
Not in Norway my friend (well, not until Sweden opened it's front and back doors to allow the Germans to get to Norway)

I knew it! Nazis hid the halibut on the poop deck! :p

http://great-song-stylists-uk.com/Yogi%20Yorgesson/WhoHidTheHalibutOnThePoopDeck.mp3

I knew the Swedes weren't to blame.. they were the victims! :p

..alright, I've had my fun.. time for sleep.

Also Bismarck (the guy who invented 'Realpolitik' ) said diplomacy must be Blood and Iron (Blut und Eisen) Is that what you meant?


Also I love Bismarcks cynicism and genius quotes :

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/o/otto_von_bismarck.html

Did I miss something? Is this "Beat On Sweden Week"?

So many topics about "the evil that is Sweden".

Gee, if you're going to smack Sweden around for their historical faults, go back to the Thirty Years War.

Did I miss something? Is this "Beat On Sweden Week"?

So many topics about "the evil that is Sweden".

Gee, if you're going to smack Sweden around for their historical faults, go back to the Thirty Years War.

Yeah, it's weird.. of all the countries to pick on, I mean.. how innocuous is Sweden? I don't understand the bad feelings.. which is why I prefer to look at the humor, rather than the Nazi occupation (or whatever).. yeah.

It seems that Sweden, the supposed bastion of freedom in Europe, was directly involved in helping Adolph Hitler fund his murderous war machine, indirectly helping to kill hundreds of thousands of allies, and millions of Jews and other concentration camp victims.

As the Eizenstat Report details: "Sweden was a critical trading partner of Nazi Germany. Its exports of ball bearings to Germany were vitally important during the war, and for a time Sweden supplied Germany with 40 percent of its iron ore until other European sources reduced that dependency."

Without trade partners such as Sweden, Turkey, and Spain, and the generous holding of billions in plundered loot by Switzerland, who knows how many thousands of Allies would have been saved from the hell that was WW2?
Who knows how many millions would have been saved from gas chambers and ovens?

What truly bothers me is the lack of representation of these facts in movies, documentations available to the public, and historical dramatizations. It shouldn't take me wandering upon these facts hidden in PBS's archives to enlighten me of atrocities committed by countries I used to consider to be Morally just. Note that I said "used to".



Sources
1 (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/etc/map4.html)
2 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/02/us.nazi.gold/)


What happened to your signature? That was hilarious.

It seems that Sweden, the supposed bastion of freedom in Europe, was directly involved in helping Adolph Hitler fund his murderous war machine, indirectly helping to kill hundreds of thousands of allies, and millions of Jews and other concentration camp victims.

As the Eizenstat Report details: "Sweden was a critical trading partner of Nazi Germany. Its exports of ball bearings to Germany were vitally important during the war, and for a time Sweden supplied Germany with 40 percent of its iron ore until other European sources reduced that dependency."


Neutrality means just that - neutrality, not taking any sides.

Not in Norway my friend (well, not until Sweden opened it's front and back doors to allow the Germans to get to Norway)
In Norway as well as all around Europe.

And Germany did not invade Norway via Sweden - that claim is historically wrong and disproven by the documents concerning "Unternehmen Weserübung".

I find it sad that you are defending people who haven't put any argument into a post other than to say "America was bad too, so there!", yet you actually HAVE contributed in a positive way. I never claimed that YOU were making off topic, pointless posts. I actually appreciated your input. And then you go and insult me for trying to keep people from turning this into yet another "Bash America" thread. The people I was referring to basically said "So what, everyone does it" Thanks for the baseless attack. :rolleyes:

What kind of thread would you like? Maybe a bash sweden thread perhaps?:rolleyes:

HAHA ohk smart guys. Blut und Ehre, is Blood and Honor is an SS slogan. Although part of the National Socialist idea was blood and soil, the concept of Lebensraum, or living room for the german people.Yes Russia has invaded Norway, that happened in 1808 actually. Though naturally they failed. And yes, germany and russia had an agreement on poland before the initial invasion.

HAHA ohk smart guys. Blut und Ehre, is Blood and Honor is an SS slogan. (...) Yes Russia has invaded Norway, that happened in 1808 actually. Though naturally they failed. (...)
http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/laughoutloud.gifOkay, then let this smart guy tell you how you're wrong:
"Blut und Ehre" (=Blood and Honor) is the salutation of the Hitler Youth.
"Unsere Ehre heißt Treue" (=Our Honor is Loyalty) is the motto of the SS.

The only Russian invasion that happened in 1808 was when on Feb. 22nd Russian troops occupied Finland which belonged to Sweden at that time. To my knowledge, Norway, which also belonged to Sweden, was not a theatre of war.
And the Russians did not "naturally" fail for they aquired Finland in the peace treaty of Frederikshamm on Sep. 19th 1809 from Sweden.

Just wondering from where you've obtained your historical knowledge :rolleyes:

Any more "fun facts" with which Sweden could be bashed a little longer? No? Good. :D

The SS had several different slogans. Another one being "For the glory and the honor of the SS". Also, my point being of the failed russian invasion was that is it difficult to launch a successfull assualt on wooded and mountainous terrain.

And Germany did not invade Norway via Sweden - that claim is historically wrong and disproven by the documents concerning "Unternehmen Weserübung".

germany invaded norway via denmark. paratroopers into olso and landings at bergen. later landings at narvik were a response to allied (british) landings. never once did these troops cross sweden.

the troops crossing sweden, I believe, were mostly destin to support finland. troops ships attempting to dock at helsinki would have had issues with the red army.

one should also note that during the russo-finnish winter war of 1940 there was the possibility of sweden's intervention in favour of finland. incidentally, finland, at the time, had a large soviet following. they felt rather betrayed by the USSR's invasion. perhaps, stalin thought they'd be fifth columnists and plunge finland into civil war thus easing demands on the red army.

germany wasn't interested in occupying sweden. they would have prefered sweden as an ally but neutrality was prefered to joining the allies. germany got pretty much what it wanted from sweden.

if anyone cares to do the research, one of the original foreign policy goals of the NSDAP was a colalition of the nordic countries (normay, denmark, finland, sweden, and the UK) to crush the remainder of europe. italy was considered the non-nordic member - likely for ideological reasons.

Thanks for claryfying that, Sinputin.

The SS had several different slogans. Another one being "For the glory and the honor of the SS".
Also, my point being of the failed russian invasion was that is it difficult to launch a successfull assualt on wooded and mountainous terrain.
No, what you just said is the only formulation resembling the motto of the SS still ruled legal in Germany. You honestly don't know what you're talking about, skewing historical facts interspersed with nazi-babble.
As if Finland wasn't wooded, mountainous and even very swampy.

Sorry, but personally, I don't give two shits what Fass thinks. :rolleyes:

Sure you don't, I bet you didn't even post this to try and attack him somehow. :rolleyes:

Posted by FireAnz
"I'd rather someone post facts making everything I stated wrong, instaed of a bunch of low brow insults and a few posts from people who apparently worship Fass as the only thing mentionable about Sweden. It's a big country folks, and there are more then 1 persons in it."

Well our country might be large, but i sure doesn't contain many people. Were about nine million and thats not many per square kilometer I can tell you that.
Many of the posts are pretty dumb, but others have read their history homework. I would like to summerise the correct information, but i just don't have time to convince you of anything.
I can say this though: Sweden did what they could to stay alive as the world outside was raging in an seemingly everlasting war. Too have had atacked would have been suicide. NO goverment are interested in suicide.

Also, what's up with people talking about a king who lived 250 years ago? It's in the past, ok? Sweden haven't been involved with war since 200 years back. Thats a good number I think and shows of a government willing to protect not just it's borders, but it's people. (We don't wan't no trubble)

And the war was also more than 60 years ago. We will never forgett it I hope, but I don't understand why we can't let go of Iron Ore dealings with the Nazis. All the people involved are stone cold by now. Also, it was an act of survival, wich in my point of view, is pretty imoportant.

Lets also not forget the US selling iron ore to imperial japan for part of the war as well.

Probably. Do you really think I can be arsed reading 13 pages? :p
Have at!
Get Arsed!o_O

Lets also not forget the US selling iron ore to imperial japan for part of the war as well.


I assume that was before Pearl Harbor? I mean, tell me we weren't shooting ourselves in the foot.

of course i mean before pearl harbor. One of the reasons behind the bombing was that we finally discontinued the trade and the japanese started starving for iron.

To Sweden's credit, and to the enormous shame and disgrace of countries with higher per capita GDP and stronger economies, it is one of the best places in the entire world to live.