NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, you weakling poseur scum I was arguing with in the pickup line thread... let's fight it out here. What do you weakling Good Charlotte lovers think punk is?

That's easy, to them it's a fashion statement. From the other thread:

Violence can be a form of punk, an idiotic form which would doom itself to the fury of organized governments.

TO Kimia:

I ain't saying you're not punk cause you cut your mohawk. I hate mohawks. I hate the sterotypical punk look. I hate seeing kids running around in $200 outfits from Hot Topic saying they're punk. Punk is about maintaining your individuality while forming a social union to undermine evils of the world!!! We're superheros, not fashion statements!!! Screw the anarchy bit, we can do more damage from inside of the system.

Watch SLC Punk, the end concept of punk is the true punk.


PS: Watch your language a bit so this thread can stay open.

Okay, fair enough.

I totally agree. I hate all these kids goinjg around wearing pre-torn clothes and Misfits embroidered jackets which cost about 600 bucks. I made ALL my own clothes, except my leather jack. But it's not about clothes. Even if you've got the image 100% right, I reckon the one thing that makes you punk is your hatred for the way things are, this mind-raping capitalist system that forces conformity on the people, that causes misery poverty, war, wage-slavery and pointless laws.

Well to start with: Good Charlotte is NOT.

And one does not damage the system from inside. You can only change it.

What do you weakling Good Charlotte lovers think punk is?

Electrified and politicised Skiffle.

Punk is the Dead Kennedys, Mudhoney, and Refused.

Though please don't get me wrong, I was once a violent youth too. I would make my own bombs and blow shit up. I would punch a stranger in the mall. My friends and I use to find it funny to go to a public place, slap a thin strip of acid on someone's neck and follow them to see them flip-out (Very funny if you ever get the chance to do it).

I had my days, but I guess there's a difference between being a teenager punk and having to make a living and being punk. I just look for ways to undermine the system from the system.

My friends and I use to find it funny to go to a public place, slap a thin strip of acid on someone's neck and follow them to see them flip-out (Very funny if you ever get the chance to do it).


That's funny, but oh-so-wrong. :p

Though, I highly would recommend not placing the blame on capitalism. Cause most people aren't educated enough to understand true capitalism. Blame it on the filth which has corrupted the purity of the economic theory. Same with communism. Don't blame socialism, blame the filth who corrupted it.

Though, I highly would recommend not placing the blame on capitalism. Cause most people aren't educated enough to understand true capitalism. Blame it on the filth which has corrupted the purity of the economic theory. Same with communism. Don't blame socialism, blame the filth who corrupted it.
Capitalism doesn't care for the weak, the disabled, the young or the old. And that is seriously wrong to me

I started this thread, NOBODY turn it into a list of their favourite bands, please.

I like this quotes someone said... "It's too late to change the system from the inside, but to early to start shooting the bastards".

I think that's going to change soon, though. Even the yankee right-wing's admitting the economy could collapse SPECTACULARLY. Great-depression. The whole thing that's happening in New Orleans right now could soon become common place. Some losers think that's anarchy. When I think anarchy, I think mutual aid and cooperation. I don't think violence.

But let's face it- fighting is FUN. We've only been 'civilised' for what, 2000 years max (that is, everyone's not trying to rip one another's throats out over who owns this or that hill). We're still basically barbarians. Gulf War Two , Sudan, Chechnya and New Orleons has proved this. Fighting with mates is a laugh, as long as you don't end up going to prison, violent sex is even funner, and seeing rich people get clobbed is even funnier.

And Legless Pirates is 100% right.

Capitalism doesn't care for the weak, the disabled, the young or the old. And that is seriously wrong to me

In the pure idea of capitalism, it does. Unfortunately bastards have misinterpretted and perverted it into this consumerist state we have now. That is the reason I am punk.

Though please don't get me wrong, I was once a violent youth too. I would make my own bombs and blow shit up. I would punch a stranger in the mall. My friends and I use to find it funny to go to a public place, slap a thin strip of acid on someone's neck and follow them to see them flip-out (Very funny if you ever get the chance to do it).

I had my days, but I guess there's a difference between being a teenager punk and having to make a living and being punk. I just look for ways to undermine the system from the system.


so you are saying that younger punks are just assholes???

Is this Hemingsoft guy pissing you off too, man? Ha ha ha

so you are saying that younger punks are just assholes!!!

90% of all young people, be they punk or not, are assholes.

isnt it funny the way punk started out as this big rebel movement,going against the norm,and now it's become the norm.

In the pure idea of capitalism, it does. Unfortunately bastards have misinterpretted and perverted it into this consumerist state we have now. That is the reason I am punk.
How so? Certainly a person who cannot work is not profitable

isnt it funny the way punk started out as this big rebel movement,going against the norm,and now it's become the norm.
Hahahahahaha.

Maybe the clothing style. MAYBE

I totally disagree. I'm a chick and when people see me with shaved head, leather jacket, oversized boots and leopard print tights, they get the FUCK out of my way. The image is still alive and kicking. More or less literally, too.

isnt it funny the way punk started out as this big rebel movement,going against the norm,and now it's become the norm.


Does this mean that we need to rebel against the rebels?
My,my,my, maybe history realy is one big circle.

I started this thread, NOBODY turn it into a list of their favourite bands, please.

I like this quotes someone said... "It's too late to change the system from the inside, but to early to start shooting the bastards".

I think that's going to change soon, though. Even the yankee right-wing's admitting the economy could collapse SPECTACULARLY. Great-depression. The whole thing that's happening in New Orleans right now could soon become common place. Some losers think that's anarchy. When I think anarchy, I think mutual aid and cooperation. I don't think violence.



That's not anarchy. That's socialism and quite possibly purist capitalism. Read Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" and you'll realize that we do not live in a capitalist state.

How so? Certainly a person who cannot work is not profitable

You lack all knowledge of real capitalism, don't you? Again, before anyone bashes capitalism, I say they must read Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations"

Hemingsoft: mind explaining that purist capitalism you keep referring to?

Capitalismk is total bullshit. It relies on the unpaid labour of the working class. When I talk about anarchy, I talk about a return to the barter system, deep ecology etc. Of course, maybe I'm a Marxist 'cos I see the need for a transition stage between capitalism and anarchy. But I still proudly where my anarcho patches any day.

You lack all knowledge of real capitalism, don't you?
You really spoil it with sentences like these :rolleyes:

Capitalismk is total bullshit. It relies on the unpaid labour of the working class.

Huh?

so you are saying that younger punks are just assholes???
Most of them are. They think it's ok to abuse other people because the system sucks. Well the old nice lady from the neighbour or the tired mother with 3 plastic bags of groceries are not the system. They should focus their anger where it should be focused, not on some ordinary civilians.

And violence is always stupid.

I already posted my idea of punk. Don't ever call me a Good Charlotte lover. OR infer that I like A Simple Plan. That is corporate punk and goes against everything that punk rock is. That's like asking a ska fan to take No Doubt seriously as a ska band.

Anyway. Here's the the URL to the Punk Manifesto ("http://www.badreligion.com/news/essays.php?id=5) again. I agree with what Greg has to say, being a pioneer of Punk Rock and all.

I totally disagree. I'm a chick and when people see me with shaved head, leather jacket, oversized boots and leopard print tights, they get the FUCK out of my way.
*nnggghhh* Fight it! You can do it! no! noooo!

:rolleyes:

couldn't resist it.

I totally disagree. I'm a chick and when people see me with shaved head, leather jacket, oversized boots and leopard print tights, they get the FUCK out of my way. The image is still alive and kicking. More or less literally, too.

I wouldn't get out of your way. Hell, I wouldn't even fear you. But I would converse at length with what you think punk is and isn't and try to point out that anger is good...when controlled and used for a purpose.

I agree with what Greg has to say, being a pioneer of Punk Rock and all.

Eh? Someone that starts that starts their first band in 1980 is hardly a pioneer.

Huh?

Okay, say you work for 8 hours in a working day and produce $10 000 worth of goods. The boss will pay you about $100. That means he is stealing $9900 of you. That's unpaid labour, wage-slavery. The capitalist only gives you enough money so you can stay alive so you can come to work tommorrow so he can steal more cash of you. That's why capitalism totally sucks.

isnt it funny the way punk started out as this big rebel movement,going against the norm,and now it's become the norm.

I wouldn't say it's become the norm...but it has been corporatized as a form of music, which is disgusting. I was once in a punk band that singled Hot Topic out in a song called "Punk Rock Kids Don't Shop at the Mall".

.The boss will pay you about $100. ... That's unpaid labour, wage-slavery.

Paid labour = 'unpaid' labour?

I'm no fan of modern capitalism but claiming that paid labour is the same thing as unpaid labour is spurious.

Eh? Someone that starts that starts their first band in 1980 is hardly a pioneer.

Wasn't his first band and their first recording was in 1980 (at least the first recording that could be remastered and re-issued). They got together in 1978 as punk was beginning in the CA style.

Hemingsoft: mind explaining that purist capitalism you keep referring to?

I'm sorry if I'm pissing you guys off, but you are unlearned in the topic of economic theory. Ironically, socialism and capitalism are very similar. The only difference is who owns the final product before sale. Before production capitalism supports full rights to anyone who wishes to obtain raw material. For example, if you wish to go into the coal mining business, you would have all rights to mine any coal anywhere. In capitalism, raw materials is not capable to be owned. The only difference would be concerning how you create, sell and market your final product. Those who are good at it, do better. Monopolies do not exist in true capitalism, nor does patents or a stock market. Everyone has the same shot at doing well. Thus the ideas of supply and demand solely drive the market.

Sorry for a short and quick explanation, but I don't feel like trying to paraphrase the entirety of a 600 or so page book.

I hope this helps you realize that we do not live in a pure capitalist state. So again, hate those who corrupted and maintain the corruption, not the ideal. Cause I sure as hell hate it too.



::EDIT::
Capitalism does support the idea that those who succeed will help those who are uncapable of succeeding because then it creates a larger market for their own business to sell to.

They got together in 1978 as punk was beginning in the CA style.

Nope. Formed 1980. Check your facts.

Paid labour = 'unpaid' labour?

I'm no fan of modern capitalism but claiming that paid labour is the same thing as unpaid labour is spurious.

You're a moron! You made $10 000 worth of shit! Shouldn't you get more than $100???? That capitalist asshole is STEALING off you! What do you spend the $100 on? You pay the fucking bills, money which goes into MORE capitalist's pockets, or you go to the shops and buy food (which in socialism would be free) feeding more capitalist assholes!

Oi this is boring let's talk about punk rock. Anyone got any pics of any gigs in their area?

You're a moron!


Gee, thanks.

You made $10 000 worth of shit!

Nope. In this example I put in eight hours of labour on presumably raw materials which already had a valuable or half-completed products which also had a value before I entered the equation.

If I was capable of producing $10,000 worth of product on my own out of nothing, and instead chose to work for only $100 a day, then yes, I would be a moron.

You're a moron! You made $10 000 worth of shit! Shouldn't you get more than $100???? That capitalist asshole is STEALING off you! What do you spend the $100 on? You pay the fucking bills, money which goes into MORE capitalist's pockets, or you go to the shops and buy food (which in socialism would be free) feeding more capitalist assholes!

Come on, It is not nessesary to call someone a moron for disagreeing with you.

Oi this is boring let's talk about punk rock. Anyone got any pics of any gigs in their area?

This would be cool as long as I don't see pic after pic of bands dressed in sterotypical 80's punkwear surrounded by fans dressed alike.

Okay, say you work for 8 hours in a working day and produce $10 000 worth of goods. The boss will pay you about $100. That means he is stealing $9900 of you. That's unpaid labour, wage-slavery. The capitalist only gives you enough money so you can stay alive so you can come to work tommorrow so he can steal more cash of you. That's why capitalism totally sucks.

There are costs in business that are not just about you. Doesn't the person who invented the thing deserve credit, even moreso than you just for putting it together (let's give him $1000)? Then there is the facility you work in ($500 for rent, $500 for electric, $500 for gas (probably more this year), $500 for water because I bet you want a bathroom). Then there is marketing to sell the product ($2000), shipping ($1000), lawyers to make sure the stores don't rip of the inventor ($2000), and somone, probably you're boss, wants to see profit for himself an shareholders ($2400 distributed between several people).

That's how business works. Wanna make more $$? Invent something and build it and sell it yourself.

Now, I agree that is we didn't live in a consumerist society it wouldn't cost as much and you would probably be paid more. The only way to deal with that is to teach people around you how to deal with it. Avoid big corps. Avoid people that pollute and companies that emply overseas.

Need a computer but don't want to pay big prices...BUILD YOUR OWN. The compnents and case will cost less than a Dell.

Complaining doesn't win the war against consumerism.

You're a moron! You made $10 000 worth of shit! Shouldn't you get more than $100???? That capitalist asshole is STEALING off you! What do you spend the $100 on? You pay the fucking bills, money which goes into MORE capitalist's pockets, or you go to the shops and buy food (which in socialism would be free) feeding more capitalist assholes!

Ah ah, you're wrong again. Consumerist assholes. Most of these people you refer to as capitalist assholes cannot be classified as capitalists at all. Go to school, learn something and then come back and talk.

You're a moron! You made $10 000 worth of shit! Shouldn't you get more than $100???? That capitalist asshole is STEALING off you! What do you spend the $100 on? You pay the fucking bills, money which goes into MORE capitalist's pockets, or you go to the shops and buy food (which in socialism would be free) feeding more capitalist assholes!


Funny, I've been in socialist countries. The food sure as f*ck wasn't free. I once paid the equivalent of $5 US for a 1 liter of Coke in Sweden. In Russia, when I was there is was the USSR, a pepsi bottle was about $2 US. The food was not free.

Oi this is boring let's talk about punk rock. Anyone got any pics of any gigs in their area?

Some pics from my local scene:

http://rickyadam.homestead.com/punkd.html

(I'm not the photographer - the guy is a genius - these series of pics tend to focus mainly on kids with mohawks and the like, because they made interesting subject matter for him).

Funny, I've been in socialist countries. The food sure as f*ck wasn't free. I once paid the equivalent of $5 US for a 1 liter of Coke in Sweden. In Russia, when I was there is was the USSR, a pepsi bottle was about $2 US. The food was not free.

Thanks for giving an example of what I've been saying. It's not socialism that's the problem, it's that we have been unsuccessful at creating a state which runs purely off socialist or capitalist economics. Again, for the dense ones who don't understand what I am saying (Not you Balipo), the corruptors are the ones who should be hated not the idea.

Thanks for giving an example of what I've been saying. It's not socialism that's the problem, it's that we have been unsuccessful at creating a state which runs purely off socialist or capitalist economics. Again, for the dense ones who don't understand what I am saying (Not you Balipo), the corruptors are the ones who should be hated not the idea.

Right on Hem...right on...

Fight the man by infiltrating his ranks...not be spitting on him as he walks out.

And here is a URL to a punk band (http://www.go.to/10lbCock) I used to be in (I was the drummer). It's technically but not necessarily safe for work. And there are lot's of sounds.

There hasn't been any socialist or anarchist countries yet, damn you people are dumb.

This is my local scene. I'm in there somewhere.

http://groups.msn.com/seedyhannahsrockemporium/aussienash14thmay.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=288

Side note:

I don't do much of this net speak bs. What the hell does my title say?

ZX81 H4x0r0r

There hasn't been any socialist or anarchist countries yet, damn you people are dumb.

can you even define socialist?

There hasn't been any socialist or anarchist countries yet, damn you people are dumb.

This is my local scene. I'm in there somewhere.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TgCXArMYeOEVOpfFninzMTuzIjd2yNoADkcpXx!

Umm...why did they call it the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics then?

Not exactly a catchy name. Sweden and Norway (and Iceland as well) are Socialist Parliamentary Monarchies. Many believe Canada practices Socialist Parliamentary government.

I guess the era of the intelligent punk has gone and now we are left with snazzy dressed kids who read a few words and think they know more than those of us who were alive to see the Clash rise and fall. Those of us who were beaten and outcasted by the high school jerks because we had different hair. I daresay, madam, you don't even know what the fuck punk is.

And furthermore...if we are gonna include pics and stuff, can we get band names in there too?

There hasn't been any socialist or anarchist countries yet, damn you people are dumb.



Isn't that just what I said? Anyone anyone? Someone throw me a bone and acknowledge that I had just said that.

Side note:

I don't do much of this net speak bs. What the hell does my title say?

ZX81 H4x0r0r

ZX81 = computer produced in 1980 by Sinclair before they produced the Spectrum.

'H4x0r0r' = hacker.

I wouldn't say it's become the norm...but it has been corporatized as a form of music, which is disgusting.

Yea,that's what I'm getting at.It's become the thing it set out to stand against.
Anyway,where I live (a medium sized town in Ireland) it really has become the norm.Little walk the line fools.

Course I can, stoopid, I'm in the IWW. Of course I can. I've been an industral worker for a year now. Of course I know.

Umm...why did they call it the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics then?

Not exactly a catchy name. Sweden and Norway (and Iceland as well) are Socialist Parliamentary Monarchies. Many believe Canada practices Socialist Parliamentary government.

I guess the era of the intelligent punk has gone and now we are left with snazzy dressed kids who read a few words and think they know more than those of us who were alive to see the Clash rise and fall. Those of us who were beaten and outcasted by the high school jerks because we had different hair. I daresay, madam, you don't even know what the fuck punk is.

Punk has definately dummied down. Punks used to be able to discuss shit intellectually, but I guess that's changed too.

::EDIT::

*shakes fist at sky*
DAMN YOU MTV!!!!!!

Anyway,where I live (a medium sized town in Ireland) it really has become the norm.Little walk the line fools.

Where in Ireland are you based?

ZX81 = computer produced in 1980 by Sinclair before they produced the Spectrum.

'H4x0r0r' = hacker.

I kinda thought the first part but wasn't too sure, but the second part is a bit to retarded for me.

Course I can, stoopid, I'm in the IWW. Of course I can. I've been an industral worker for a year now. Of course I know.

Okay...now I will take the part of the dumb guy. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

You are in a union so you're punk? Unions are the most corrupt money grubbing entities known to the business world.

Look at it this way.

Jesus Christ said ;thou shalt not kill'. The USA calls itself a Christian country. It has capital punishment and has bombed or invaded three quearters of the countries on earth. Just 'cos it says it is Christianoid doesn't make it christianoid.

Same thing with all these so-called ;communist' countries. Just 'cos they call emselves commies doesn't make 'em communist.

Man, I could tell you guys I'm a purple martian from another dimension and you'd believe me. Jeez

Okay...now I will take the part of the dumb guy. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

You are in a union so you're punk? Unions are the most corrupt money grubbing entities known to the business world.

The IWW is not your standard union.

You saiy you're punk and you haven't heard of the IWW? I suggest you look it up quicksmart before you make a fool of yourself.

Jesus Christ said ;thou shalt not kill'.

Well, technically that was his dad what said that, but anyhow...

Ok kiddies Punk Rock is 3 chord rock and roll played hard and fast like your goddamn life depended on it. It's lyric were what ever had pissed you off or stirred your soul. "Punk fashion" was a joke started my some friends of Malcolm Mcclrean's at a boutique called Sex in London. Punk is for the most part well and truly dead with a bunch of old men (my age) whoring themselves and their music to today's poseurs (I'm talking to you Dave Vanian and Johnny Rotten your old let it go) Today the only real punk band left is Rancid, nobody else is either political or emotionally connected enough to be real punk. Punk is just about dead it death knell started with Joe Strummer's death.
Oh and real punks aren't Vegan EVER.





Okay, you weakling poseur scum I was arguing with in the pickup line thread... let's fight it out here. What do you weakling Good Charlotte lovers think punk is?

Okay, you weakling poseur scum I was arguing with in the pickup line thread... let's fight it out here. What do you weakling Good Charlotte lovers think punk is?

A musical and fashion form which, for all practical purposes, died in the 70s. There are still some people around that think they're punk, but there are also many who think they're still hippies and beatniks, too. Basically, they're just pissed that they missed it the first time around.

I just wanted to say. that as a non-punk myself, you people have opened my eyes to what punk is. now i'm not about to become "punk". not because i dont like you, but because i have my own way of thinking. i do applaued you for thinking for yourself and, for the most part, being kind and logical. but do you need the word punk to describe yourself. cant you just be joe, or larry, or bobby, or rufus, or just the person you are? maybe i dont understand what punk is. maybe no one does. it seems to me that punk is merely being yourself and thinking for yourself. if being yourself is preppy, thats okay to me. or if you want to be unique, hip, listen to rap, rock, country, pop. or if your black, white, yellow, red, pink, orange, fuscia, thats cool. just dont expect me to believe what you believe and we will be a okay ;)

Look at it this way.

Jesus Christ said ;thou shalt not kill'. The USA calls itself a Christian country. It has capital punishment and has bombed or invaded three quearters of the countries on earth. Just 'cos it says it is Christianoid doesn't make it christianoid.

Same thing with all these so-called ;communist' countries. Just 'cos they call emselves commies doesn't make 'em communist.

Man, I could tell you guys I'm a purple martian from another dimension and you'd believe me. Jeez

Let's clear some things up. The US doesn't call itself a Christian country. The First Amendment makes sure that no one ever does. And at the moment, there are more people of Non-Christian faith in the US than there are Christians.

Communism and socialism are 2 different things. And neither works. Karl Marx attempted to create a Utopian Socialist society (in of all places rural Iowa) and it failed. Why? Because socialism doesn't work. Does Capitalism work? Not purely no.

Would I believe you were a purple martian from another dimension? Only if you produced pictures and documented proof. Or you were naked. But whatever.

You have a alot to learn about the socio-political arena before you decide how to attack it. It is clear that there is a lot you simply don't know.

Ok kiddies Punk Rock is 3 chord rock and roll played hard and fast like your goddamn life depended on it. It's lyric were what ever had pissed you off or stirred your soul. "Punk fashion" was a joke started my some friends of Malcolm Mcclrean's at a boutique called Sex in London. Punk is for the most part well and truly dead with a bunch of old men (my age) whoring themselves and their music to today's poseurs (I'm talking to you Dave Vanian and Johnny Rotten your old let it go) Today the only real punk band left is Rancid, nobody else is either political or emotionally connected enough to be real punk. Punk is just about dead it death knell started with Joe Strummer's death.
Oh and real punks aren't Vegan EVER.

Punk Rock doesn't have to be "three chords". Listen to Husker Du.

Vanian was always a poser. John's still going about his business, just as he always has. That's how he's dressed since he was 14, and he's always acted that way. And just how is he "whoring" himself?

The death knoll started with Strummer's death? PFFF! It died at Winterland.

What's this about "real punks aren't Vegans"? What, now you wanna tell people what they can and can't do to fit into your "scene"? That's why Lydon hates you people so much.

Ok kiddies Punk Rock is 3 chord rock and roll played hard and fast like your goddamn life depended on it.

Ergo, Status Quo circa 1970-1975 were playing punk rock?

Vanian was always a poser. John's still going about his business, just as he always has. That's how he's dressed since he was 14, and he's always acted that way. And just how is he "whoring" himself?

The death knoll started with Strummer's death? PFFF! It died at Winterland.

He dressed that way because his wife/girlfriend/whatever owned a clothing shop that sold that sort of clothing. Sales definately boomed because of it. That's why I hate that fashion, SP was partly a fashion ploy.

And yes, punk rock is 3-chord rock-n-roll, by musical definition. Only in the past 10 so years has punk bands incorporated similar style solos and riffs.

He dressed that way because his wife/girlfriend/whatever owned a clothing shop that sold that sort of clothing. Sales definately boomed because of it. That's why I hate that fashion, SP was partly a fashion ploy.

Uhh... You don't know very much about him (or the band), do you?

He used to be a clown hired for children's birthday parties. That was when he was 13 and 14. He thought the different hair colors were nice, so he begand coloring his hair green. He also wore DIY shirts (basically, just band T-shirts with his own writing on them, like his Pink Floyd shirt). "Girlfriend", eh?

Malcolm tried to make them a fashion ploy, but the band hated it (and ended up hating him). It's one of the reasons they sued his ass in 1986.

You want REAL anarchy go to NO.
Anarchy and Socialism both are political systems only favored by the young and niave.

Take that back Socialism is for the niave, Anarchy for the stupid.



There hasn't been any socialist or anarchist countries yet, damn you people are dumb.

This is my local scene. I'm in there somewhere.

http://groups.msn.com/seedyhannahsrockemporium/aussienash14thmay.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=288

And yes, punk rock is 3-chord rock-n-roll, by musical definition. Only in the past 10 so years has punk bands incorporated similar style solos and riffs.

For solos: Check Steve Jones and Bob Mould. The Sex Pistols had solos and bridges all the way back in 1976, and Husker Du had solos and bridges as early as 1980.

And yes, punk rock is 3-chord rock-n-roll, by musical definition.

Lets grab some early punk tunes and see if this definition actually works or not:

White Riot - 5 chords.
Anarchy In The UK - 8 chords plus a couple of weird ones under the solos.
New Rose - 7 chords.
Blitzkrieg Bop - 4 chords.

Nope, doesn't seem to be working.

Lets grab some early punk tunes and see if this definition actually works or not:

White Riot - 5 chords.
Anarchy In The UK - 8 chords plus a couple of weird ones under the solos.
New Rose - 7 chords.

Nope, doesn't seem to be working.

Exactamundo.

God Save The Queen alone has 6 chords. Even Blitzkrieg Bop has 4 chords.

Even Blitzkrieg Bop has 4 chords.

'sfunny - I went back and edited that one in before I saw your post as a nod of the head to our cousins across the pond and to show that even The Ramones, oft described as playing the most simplistic music, didn't even fit the three chord paradigm.


Certainly there are plenty of punk rock tunes which only have three chords, but the field is not limited to them. If anything D-Beat or early hardcore would probably fit closer to being described as (mostly) three chord music.

'sfunny - I went back and edited that one in before I saw your post as a nod of the head to our cousins across the pond and to show that even The Ramones, oft described as playing the most simplistic music, didn't even fit the three chord paradigm.


Certainly there are plenty of punk rock tunes which only have three chords, but the field is not limited to them.

Funny, it is. The only Ramones song with 3 chords was Beat On The Brat.

Oh, and for a hell of an opening, listen to Pretty Vacant.

Oh, and for a hell of an opening, listen to Pretty Vacant.

Oh, you mean the opening riff from Abba's S.O.S.?

Oh, you mean the opening riff from Abba's S.O.S.?

That, I do.

Steve Jones on Pretty Vacant: "I actually got the opening riff from ABBA's S.O.S. You might not be able to tell at first, but it's there."

The IWW is not your standard union.

True, but they aren't really out to help anyone either. The are just a bunch of bored rich kids that found socialism and thought it'd be fun. The IWW are a joke and nothing more. That is why corporations and governments don't take them very seriously.

Steve Jones on Pretty Vacant: "I actually got the opening riff from ABBA's S.O.S. You might not be able to tell at first, but it's there."

Matlock, shurely?

I took this from a dictionary on the interweb.

"Punk can have the following meanings:

A follower of punk music, fashion or culture.
Punk is a set of social and political beliefs, morals and standards that indicate an absolute rejection of conformity.
A punk is a combustible material or a piece of kindling to light slow-igniting substances. Also a small stub or cigar.
Donny the Punk is a nickname for Stephen Donaldson, founder of Stop Prisoner Rape, Inc.. He is not to be confused with Stephen R. Donaldson, the author of fantasy novels.
In Shakespearean slang, punke is a prostitute.
It is also a slang term for a young man who is the sexual partner of an older man."


Punk doesn't make sense until you take it to the point of nihilism, which is also paradoxical in nature. As to be a true nihilist you can't even conform to nihilistic system of moral beliefs.

Punk's are ignorant people that claim that they can behave anyway they choose...... which is true. What makes a punk ignorant is that they don't acknowledge everyone else's right to act the way they want. Then they try to curb other people's choices every step the way without an acknowledgement that they have as much right to act that way as a punk has to act the way they act.

Punks are fascists.

Donny the Punk is a nickname for Stephen Donaldson, founder of Stop Prisoner Rape, Inc.. He is not to be confused with Stephen R. Donaldson, the author of fantasy novels.

Is Donny the Punk still alive? I met him in the early nineties and thought he died a few years after?

Checks... yup, he died in '96.

Sorry but Johnny is a whore who was tarted up my Malcom, he was completely made by Malcom.

Real punks were too friggin poor to be picky about what they ate. Hench no Vegans. (btw I find Vegans and Peta pretentious hypocrites of the first order, kinda like Mr Lydon.)


Punk Rock doesn't have to be "three chords". Listen to Husker Du.

Vanian was always a poser. John's still going about his business, just as he always has. That's how he's dressed since he was 14, and he's always acted that way. And just how is he "whoring" himself?

The death knoll started with Strummer's death? PFFF! It died at Winterland.

What's this about "real punks aren't Vegans"? What, now you wanna tell people what they can and can't do to fit into your "scene"? That's why Lydon hates you people so much.

Matlock, shurely?

Yeah, that was Glen. Ugh, my brain's not functioning correctly.

I haven't read that snippet in months.

Sorry but Johnny is a whore who was tarted up my Malcom, he was completely made by Malcom.

Real punks were too friggin poor to be picky about what they ate. Hench no Vegans. (btw I find Vegans and Peta pretentious hypocrites of the first order, kinda like Mr Lydon.)

And so we come to the infamous Sex Pistols Debate. There was one punk rock person in the Sex Pistols. And it wasn't Lydon, it was Sid Vicious. But he was never on the album and only there for the public to see him at shows.

Real punks were too friggin poor to be picky about what they ate.

On this basis Charlie Harper wasn't a 'real punk' then, as not only did he have a job, but also owned his own business...

Sorry but Johnny is a whore who was tarted up my Malcom, he was completely made by Malcom.

Real punks were too friggin poor to be picky about what they ate. Hench no Vegans. (btw I find Vegans and Peta pretentious hypocrites of the first order, kinda like Mr Lydon.)

LOL!

John *WAS* dirt-poor. He and Sid were squatters before they got in the band. Their last flat didn't even have a bath tub.

Malcolm gave them clothes, yes, but that's all they could afford. He didn't even give them the profits from their records (thus the court case).

You, sir, must get a clue.

And it wasn't Lydon, it was Sid Vicious.

Nah: Matlock.

Nah: Matlock.

:p

Sorry to destroy your little hero but Malcolm shat Johnny out whole cloth.


LOL!

John *WAS* dirt-poor. He and Sid were squatters before they got in the band. Their last flat didn't even have a bath tub.

Malcolm gave them clothes, yes, but that's all they could afford. He didn't even give them the profits from their records (thus the court case).

You, sir, must get a clue.

That is the reason I am punk.

you just proved that you're not punk.

This was the crazyest gig ever, afterwards me and my friends went crazy at the local pizza hut, we had the all you can eat icecream, and ate LOADS. everyone was looking at us, but we didnt care.

Check out the gig here http://www.allstarz.org/users/goodcharlotte/pictures/aol_concert/aol_concert_oct4_2004_02.jpg

Okay people, Sid was taken because John said he'd be good. He was learning... Until he met Nancy, who funded his heroin addiction. After that, he stopped rehearsing and going to recording sessions.

Now, Sid did record basslines for some of their records, but Glen was hired as a session bassist to record new ones in place of Sid's rather crappy playing. Glen played the entirety of Never Mind The Bollocks, as well as all their singles.

Check out the gig here http://www.allstarz.org/users/goodcharlotte/pictures/aol_concert/aol_concert_oct4_2004_02.jpg

I assume this is irony.

Okay, say you work for 8 hours in a working day and produce $10 000 worth of goods. The boss will pay you about $100. That means he is stealing $9900 of you. That's unpaid labour, wage-slavery. The capitalist only gives you enough money so you can stay alive so you can come to work tommorrow so he can steal more cash of you. That's why capitalism totally sucks.

now theres a nice closed minded view of the world. heres a question: would you rather live in a capitalist state or a socialist state. it wont make much difference, both have their downfalls. NO government works absolutely

Sorry to destroy your little hero but Malcolm shat Johnny out whole cloth.

www.sex-pistols.net

Open your eyes.

personally, i think punk is boiled down to the fight against mediocrity and mindless conformity. it's not the "fuck the man", bad-ass teen bullshit that all these so-called "punk" teens are putting out these days.

again, the fight against mediocrity and mindless consumer-whore conformity, and take it from me, i'm a 17 year old *air-cadet flight sergeant* in a *punk band* as i write this, i am polishing my parade boots, and listening to "minority" by green day.

okay, granted green day is really a bunch of capitalist sell-outs, but then again what band isn't: if you want to be famous, you NEED to sell out. and guess what, anyone who gets their music is HELPING them sell out

You're a moron! You made $10 000 worth of shit! Shouldn't you get more than $100???? That capitalist asshole is STEALING off you! What do you spend the $100 on? You pay the fucking bills, money which goes into MORE capitalist's pockets, or you go to the shops and buy food (which in socialism would be free) feeding more capitalist assholes!

chill out. Heres a question:would you rather live in a capitalist state, or a socialist one? each have their downfalls and there really isnt much difference. as soon as you benefit from one aspect of socialism, you lose out on another from capitalism. (if that makes sense)

anyway, socialism doesnt mean that food is provided free, thats communism, which (proved by Russia and North Korea) is generally a bad road to go down.

(oops, done 2 same posts, sorry all)

anyway, socialism doesnt mean that food is provided free, thats communism, which (proved by Russia and North Korea) is generally a bad road to go down.

Uh, the U.S.S.R. and North Korea were/are *not* Communist. There has never been a true Communist "state". Soviet Russia and North Korea were/are both Totalitarian.

True Communism starts out with controlled Capitalism. It's not what you think it is. Everybody has everything they need. And how the hell did a Punk Rock thread turn into a (rather idiotic and uninformed) discussion about governments?

I used to say I was a punk but now that 9 year olds go round saying that green day is the greatest punk bands I think I would prefer to be known as a an annoying nerd

personally, i think punk is boiled down to the fight against mediocrity and mindless conformity.

The problem here though is that, however, a good many punk bands are in fact just mediocre and are just conforming to what their peers and those whom they admire do.

The problem here though is that, however, a good many punk bands are in fact just mediocre and are just conforming to what their peers and those whom they admire do.

then theyre not really punk.
a true example would be looking at a band such as the sex pistols, then looking at some of the other bands and what they were producing at the time. also, look at the emergance of garage rock, which is flooding the UK charts, if something radically different emerged then that would be punk (not necessarily rock but what the hell

then theyre not really punk.
a true example would be looking at a band such as the sex pistols, then looking at some of the other bands and what they were producing at the time. also, look at the emergance of garage rock, which is flooding the UK charts, if something radically different emerged then that would be punk (not necessarily rock but what the hell

Exactly.

The Sex Pistols were a true Punk Rock band. They came from absolutely nothing and kicked ass, yet they spawned a freakish amount of imitators.

The problem here though is that, however, a good many punk bands are in fact just mediocre and are just conforming to what their peers and those whom they admire do.

thank you, i've been trying to tell alot of people this for a lomg time! that's why i think punk has lost itself over the ages, because almost all of today's "punk" bands are just repeating the same old crap that everyone esle is doing

The Sex Pistols were a true Punk Rock band. They came from absolutely nothing and kicked ass...

cough. New York Dolls. Hawkwind. Stooges. cough - they hardly were born ex nihilo.

Exactly.

The Sex Pistols were a true Punk Rock band. They came from absolutely nothing and kicked ass, yet they spawned a freakish amount of imitators.

thus meaning that you can only really have one punk rock band at a time, as any others that come out after them are conforming and not breaking any genres. however, for the purposes of the question, punk (or at least british punk) is the genre that emerged with, or after the sex pistols during the late 70s as a protest against the music at the time. ( www.allmusic.com will do a good explanation)

cough. New York Dolls. Hawkwind. Stooges. cough - they hardly were born ex nihilo.

I know they were influenced by those guys.

I mean that they literally came from nothing (John and Sid were dirt-poor squatters, Steve was a thug who had no home, Glen was a bum who had no home, and Paul was just a wanderer).

Okay, you weakling poseur scum I was arguing with in the pickup line thread... let's fight it out here. What do you weakling Good Charlotte lovers think punk is?

Good Charlotte is not punk rock. Punk rock is proper music like The Sex Pistols, music with a soul. Punk rock is subversive but for a reason. It is to undermine authority for the good of all.

Exactly.

The Sex Pistols were a true Punk Rock band. They came from absolutely nothing and kicked ass, yet they spawned a freakish amount of imitators.

The Sex Pistols were a marketing strategy for Vivienne Westwood's fashion. Signed to a major label, loud and dumb, they were the pop-punks of the 70's.

thus meaning that you can only really have one punk rock band at a time, as any others that come out after them are conforming and not breaking any genres.

Too true

thus meaning that you can only really have one punk rock band at a time, as any others that come out after them are conforming and not breaking any genres.

Not exactly...

The Ramones, the Sex Pistols, the Buzzcocks, and The Clash existed at the same time, and they were hardly alike.

The Sex Pistols were a marketing strategy for Vivenne Westwood's fashion. Signed to a major label, loud and dumb, they were the pop-punks of the 70's.

Lead singer John Lydon has an IQ of 130. Higher than Einsten. Not dumb! Do your homework before critisizing.

The Sex Pistols were a marketing strategy for Vivenne Westwood's fashion. Signed to a major label, loud and dumb, they were the pop-punks of the 70's.

Really...

The fucking band started before they even met Vivienne. She just made clothes for them, which Malcolm sold to increase their popularity. Like I said before, they didn't like the fact that Malcolm tried to whore products for them.

The Pop-Punks of the 70's were the Buzzcocks. They fucking started the Pop-Punk subgenre.

Get your facts straight, people. You look really stupid when you pull things out of your asses!

Lead singer John Lydon has an IQ of 130. Higher than Einsten. Not dumb! Do your homework before critisizing.

I was referring to their music.

I was referring to their music.

http://www.lyricsondemand.com/s/sexpistolslyrics/

Sex Pistols lyrics, Einstein.

you want "dumb" music? Listen to the Ramones. Of course, most of their songs were intentionally stupid, as they had some meaningful gems (the most important being I'm Against It).

thus meaning that you can only really have one punk rock band at a time, as any others that come out after them are conforming and not breaking any genres.

but punk doesn't HAVE to stay in ONE genre, it's a VERY loose term when is comes to the actual music that is played.

hell, when they first started out, The Police were considered punk, and actually still are, and they transcended genres like crazy, borrowing rhthyms from jazz, regea, rock, blues, and the "traditional" punk beat

You look really stupid when you pull things out of your asses!

Not if you're pulling a tapeworm out you don't.

Not if you're pulling a tapeworm out you don't.

*hands you a cookie*

Good stuff, man, good stuff.

As for you Lydon naysayers...

Look no further than Public Image Limited. That group transcended genres like no other, and Lydon's appearance changed more than their sound.

Of course, his appearance has never been a constant...

Umm...why did they call it the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics then?

so the nazis were socialist too then? and all those dictatorships with "democratic" in the name are democracies are they? just because it says it is doesnt mean it is.

I assume this is irony.
correct :p

Lead singer John Lydon has an IQ of 130. Higher than Einsten. Not dumb! Do your homework before critisizing.

I not trying to refute your claim that John Lydon was a man of higher intelligence than he is often credited to have. However Einstein's IQ was much higher than 130. Depending on the IQ test they estimate Einstein to be scoring about 160 to as high 200.

Remember, IQ is only a cooefficient of capacity. Ability to solve very simple problems- very rapidly, therefore, contain the problems contain almost no depth. Intellectual INTELLIGENCE on the other hand can almost certainly be defined as the ability to solve complex nonlinear problems (although the psychometric community fails to define it entirely). Thus, intelligence can more reasonably be considered as a type of 'efficiency' as opposed to 'speed' (speed theorems dangerously assume that the individual who does the simplest problems quickest can do the hardest ones; with the absencse of a theoretical basis). Power theorems suggest that intelligence is a product of depth in seeing relations- and with some consistency these relations evolve into complex algorithimic networks which provide for high level problem solving (and other fields of intellect) ; essentially 'creativity' is admittedly directly linked to intelligence -by some cognitive scientists and many members of high iq societies.
Anyways, back to Einstein. His 'IQ' has been estimated at 'only' 160, but his level of 'intelligence' must of exceeded 190+ by adulthood. Thus, from the plethora of brilliant scientists in the field of physics- it was only Einstein who had spooled enough of this creative reasoning power to attack even the most challenging of humanities questions.

When it comes to comparisomes to intelligence, Einstein is rarely matched in my opinion.

Fan Site! Wikipedia's is better wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_Pistols) England's Dreaming has a more detailed account, and you should try to track down the interviews of contemporaries, like Souixie, Budgie and Robert Smith(although he was sorta young then), or even Adam Ant. (to be honest Souixie is on of the better sources and she lays it on the table Malcolm built the band, the only really good stuff Johnny did after the Pistols was his venture into Rap with Africaa Boombatta (sp))


www.sex-pistols.net

Open your eyes.

Fan Site! Wikipedia's is better wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_Pistols) England's Dreaming has a more detailed account, and you should try to track down the interviews of contemporaries, like Souixie, Budgie and Robert Smith(although he was sorta young then), or even Adam Ant. (to be honest Souixie is on of the better sources and she lays it on the table Malcolm built the band, the only really good stuff Johnny did after the Pistols was his venture into Rap with Africaa Boombatta (sp))

Wow, you got some really shitty sources. Souxsie's nice, but she doesn't know shit about the Pistols. Never has, and neither have Adam Ant and Robert Smith.

The link I gave you has interviews from people who were actually *around* the band, not just onlookers. It also has the story from the very beginning, when Steve, Paul, and Wally Nightingale started their band in 1972.

To whoever claimed punk was about being against "the mind-raping capitalist system", I can only say: Punx not red. Seriously, the lot of us may be anarchists or socialists, but it's not a norm(because norms are... Let's hear it kiddies ... Not very punk rock).

That being said, stop bitching. Punk a fashion? Hell yes, punks have always been fashion conscious; albeit just conscious of a fashion that is anti-social, perverted and thought provoking - Sure punk has been marketed with shitty softporn outfits like Sum 41, Good Charlotte, Simple Plan etc.; but place a teeniebopper fooled to like that stuff next to an honest-to-badness hardcore punk; and you can easily see why real punk persists. It's an attitude and a way of life, at least to me.

Adam Ant.

Damn. Must dig out my copy of Dirk Wears White Sox again one of these days.

Hawkwind?? ok The Stooges without doubt, ditto the Dolls but Hawkwind ...Michael Moorcock as Protopunk??


cough. New York Dolls. Hawkwind. Stooges. cough - they hardly were born ex nihilo.

My opinion is that "the accual punk" is death but now there are new kinds of punk like "anti-flag music" (anti-bush) they call there self (new age)"punk" but it's not accually the same as the sex pistols or such and good charlotte just sucks.
bands like good charlotte , busted , 3days grace isn't punk .
(by the way sorry that my english very bad is but I suck in languages.)

Hello! Souxsie and the pistols were joined at the friggin hip for a long time.

The Pistols in one form or another existed before Malcom BUT and it's a really BIG but MALCOM made them PUNK. Hell Malcom made PUNK not from scratch but he made it the iconic thing that it is. He put life into a dead art form. (look at the state of Rock and Roll in the late '70's (were you even born?))
Rock and Roll was about always about rebellion and youth, two things that were lacking in the late 70's.

My analogy is this Malcolm was Col. Parker to Johnny's Elvis. I understand if you don't get it.

BTW more important band Clash or Pistols ?


Wow, you got some really shitty sources. Souxsie's nice, but she doesn't know shit about the Pistols. Never has, and neither have Adam Ant and Robert Smith.

The link I gave you has interviews from people who were actually *around* the band, not just onlookers. It also has the story from the very beginning, when Steve, Paul, and Wally Nightingale started their band in 1972.

Quit arguing about fucking politics. Can't you just say "punk rock is music?" Yes, it's a certain kind of music, but fuck it, that's what it boils down to and that's what I'm laving it at.

Hello! Souxsie and the pistols were joined at the friggin hip for a long time.

The Banshees supported them for quite some time, but that doesn't mean Sousxie knew anything about how they started.

In fact, she knew fuck-all about them.

Hawkwind?? ok The Stooges without doubt, ditto the Dolls but Hawkwind ...Michael Moorcock as Protopunk??

Yeah: there are quite a few similarities to Hawkwind's less noodly tunes in the Sex Pistol's guitar work before they went into the studio and it got all poliched out - if nothing else the phaser on the intro to Anarchy In The UK stands out as a pretty obvious Hawkwind sound. Lyrically you've got Urban Guerilla as another arguable influence, and the A/B moron riff running through New York would fit very easily on the early Hawkwind LPs... to say nothing of the re-formed Pistols tipping their hat blatantly to them with their cover of Silver Machine.

EDIT: for all Hawkwind's hippy noodling and quite frankly forgettable first LP, there is a lot of proto-punk stuff in there. If nothing else Lemmy's period certainly stands out as being such. Ignore the fact that half of every LP they were singing about spaceships and psychic powers and that half the tracks were twee instrumental nonsense and listen to some of their heavier tunes, and you'll see that I'm not entirely off the wall with this.


EDIT TWO: of course the irony is that after their proto-punk period the band caught on to the new punk sound and followed that vein themselves for a while.

I was referring to their music.

Their music isn't dumb either. The only reason that Anarchy in the UK came into being was because anarchist kind of sounded right paired with anti-christ.
That sparked off the whole thing.

well, i'd have to say that in my oppinion, punk is alot like jazz, it's not a SPECIFIC form of music, it's not a collection of lyrics, or a specific beat, it's the SOUL behind the music, what's driving the music, and the message that the music carries.

Back when I was young and the earrth was flat we had this thing called Punk Rock. It was about rebellion and individuality, so no you 'political punks' with your conformity to an ideology are'nt punk. And even if you wear the outfits you are'nt punk. You're new wave at best go listen to the Cure or something. I remember talking to Rowdy from toxic Reasons Reasons when he started selling a bunch of Goth Industrial gear at his shop, "It's not punk but it's allright forwhat it is."

Yeah: there are quite a few similarities to Hawkwind's less noodly tunes in the Sex Pistol's guitar work before they went into the studio and it got all poliched out - if nothing else the phaser on the intro to Anarchy In The UK stands out as a pretty obvious Hawkwind sound. Lyrically you've got Urban Guerilla as another arguable influence, and the A/B moron riff running through New York would fit very easily on the early Hawkwind LPs... to say nothing of the re-formed Pistols tipping their hat blatantly to them with their cover of Silver Machine.

Exactly.

Heh, and I LOVE the moronic riff of New York --- A true rip on the entire NYC Punk scene.

Not if you're pulling a tapeworm out you don't.

No, you still do.

well, i'd have to say that in my oppinion, punk is alot like jazz, it's not a SPECIFIC form of music, it's not a collection of lyrics, or a specific beat, it's the SOUL behind the music, what's driving the music, and the message that the music carries.

That's quite true. Although jazz has a specific sound to it but punk is broader on the musical front.

No, you still do.

You don't look sexy, I'll give you that, but in my opinion someone that leaves it in there looks more stupid than someone that pulls it out.

That's quite true. Although jazz has a specific sound to it but punk is broader on the musical front.
did you just say that punk has a broader musical range than jazz?

Exactly.


Just found this...

"Musically I was into Alice Cooper and Hawkwind... Mum used to love the music I used to buy. Just before leaving home, she would always come upstairs to my room and ask in her heavy Irish brogue 'what have you bought lately son? I heard some noise earlier on I liked'. No, Mum, you wouldn't like this. It's Hawkwind's first album..." - John Lydon.

You don't look sexy, I'll give you that, but in my opinion someone that leaves it in there looks more stupid than someone that pulls it out.

I was meaning in public. There's nothing wrong about taking a tapeworm out your arse but just don't ruin anyone's meal.

did you just say that punk has a broader musical range than jazz?

What I mean is, though I prefer punk over jazz, that punk has more different songs and sounds to jazz.

I was meaning in public. There's nothing wrong about taking a tapeworm out your arse but just don't ruin anyone's meal.

In which case it isn't so much me looking stupid as looking disgusting. Never once in my life have I been put off my food by someone looking stupid.

Quit arguing about fucking politics. Can't you just say "punk rock is music?" Yes, it's a certain kind of music, but fuck it, that's what it boils down to and that's what I'm laving it at.


that isn't entirely true. "punk" bands from the 70s and early 80s don't sound much like the musicians who claim them as influences. the number of bands, genres, labels, and people who associate themselves with the term "punk" are so varied at this point that it is completely unrealistic to claim that it is a type of music. it is, most definitely, a particular philosophy about the ways to interact with your peers and the resultant community of people sharing those views. there aren't particular politics or music tastes or clothes or violent behaviors that make you "punk." it is merely an association with a particular idea set and, frankly, is just as elitist and conformist as any other such set.

What I mean is, though I prefer punk over jazz, that punk has more different songs and sounds to jazz.
so what you're saying is that punk has more variation in it's sound song to song than jazz?

i really don't get what you're saying

Oi this is boring let's talk about punk rock. Anyone got any pics of any gigs in their area?
I'm in a funpunk band

http://newsite.baggerunited.nl/index.php?page=foto/index

Rancid? Joe Strummer? The Thex Pithtols? Uuuuuuuugh you guys need to listen to some REAL hardcore.

Okay, once you've listened to some Dekadent, Kaaos, Agathocles, Malignant Tumour, Silmaosasto, Electlic, Viimeinen Kolonna, Battle of Disarm, Schifosi, Comrades, Doom, Axiom, Poison Idea, Cornucopia, Pisschrist, Clusterbombunit, Total Chaos and Toxic Narcotic, we can resume this conversation.

Of course, once you've listened to all of them, you'll wear nothing but tight jeans, a black hoody with a studded leather jacket over it, a gassmask, chaos spikes, be throwing molotovs at logging companies and modelling your life on Tank Girl comics. So you probably won't feel like talking. Let's go blow up a digger and get pissed, mates! At least that's been punk rock in my experience. Says I listening to The Exploited at 3:17am writing a zine and arguing with would-be dictators on the internet.

that isn't entirely true. "punk" bands from the 70s and early 80s don't sound much like the musicians who claim them as influences. the number of bands, genres, labels, and people who associate themselves with the term "punk" are so varied at this point that it is completely unrealistic to claim that it is a type of music.

Agreed.

One of the things about talking about such a broad subject as punk on a forum like this is that due to the entirely splintered and varied nature of the scene we are forced to talk about bands which form some kind of common ground: I would much rather be talking about Rorschach or Tragedy or The Amebix here, but such would likely lead to silence, and so we return again and again to raking over the coals of bands from the late seventies, if only because any random punker is likely to have heard of them.

What I mean is, though I prefer punk over jazz, that punk has more different songs and sounds to jazz.
i hope that you are joking. try listening to these songs and then tell me that they are all the same.

feio- miles davis
a love supreme- john coltrane
watermelon man- herbie hancock
zombie- fela kuti
indent- cecil taylor

i think that what you meant to say was that you have a pre-conceived notion of what you think that jazz is and because of that you have never ventured to listen to the overwhelmingly broad range of styles that have developed from jazz.

Who was her drummer ?

The Banshees supported them for quite some time, but that doesn't mean Sousxie knew anything about how they started.

In fact, she knew fuck-all about them.

Uuuuuuuugh you guys need to listen to some REAL hardcore.

Okay, once you've listened to some Dekadent, Kaaos, Agathocles, Malignant Tumour, Silmaosasto, Electlic, Viimeinen Kolonna, Battle of Disarm, Schifosi, Comrades, Doom, Axiom, Poison Idea, Cornucopia, Pisschrist, Clusterbombunit, Total Chaos and Toxic Narcotic, we can resume this conversation.

...

Says I listening to The Exploited at 3:17am writing a zine and arguing with would-be dictators on the internet.

The irony here being that The Exploited are closer in nature to the original crop of punk rock bands that we have been talking about, rather than the hardcore bands that you lsited.


If its currently any consolation, I'm currently wearing a Poison Idea shirt (the one with Jesus's skull on it) that the band gave us when I did sound for them.

...some REAL hardcore.
Would it be possible that you know Walls of Jericho?

Who was her drummer ?

Budgie?

i hope that you are joking. try listening to these songs and then tell me that they are all the same.

feio- miles davis
a love supreme- john coltrane
watermelon man- herbie hancock
zombie- fela kuti
indent- cecil taylor

i think that what you meant to say was that you have a pre-conceived notion of what you think that jazz is and because of that you have never ventured to listen to the overwhelmingly broad range of styles that have developed from jazz.
thanx, i really hate it when people think that certain styles of music have specific sounds to them. which happens to be the reason i'm in this argument about punk music when i'm a jazz drummer. i like to keep an open mind to all forms of music.

The irony here being that The Exploited are closer in nature to the original crop of punk rock bands that we have been talking about, rather than the hardcore bands that you lsited.


If its currently any consolation, I'm currently wearing a Poison Idea shirt (the one with Jesus's skull on it) that the band gave us when I did sound for them.

EVERYONE rights zines at 3am while listening to The Exploited. It's a tradition. What else would I listen to? Reagan Youth? It doesn't fit the mood.

You've been 'round PI? Bulllllshiiit, you lucky sod. I've got mates who've got their logos tatooed on 'em. I hope you're not lying. Once of my older mates reckon's he shagged Brody's sister and showed Rancid how to use soap to do their mohawks up, so I know he's lying.

thanx, i really hate it when people think that certain styles of music have specific sounds to them. which happens to be the reason i'm in this argument about punk music when i'm a jazz drummer. i like to keep an open mind to all forms of music.

I guess the most obvious punk bands with jazz drummers are Victim's Family, Nomeansno and (mental block... am I thinking of) The Inbred(?).

I'm going to listen to the early stuff again you got me thinking.
Mwy Bwain Hurds!

Yeah: there are quite a few similarities to Hawkwind's less noodly tunes in the Sex Pistol's guitar work before they went into the studio and it got all poliched out - if nothing else the phaser on the intro to Anarchy In The UK stands out as a pretty obvious Hawkwind sound. Lyrically you've got Urban Guerilla as another arguable influence, and the A/B moron riff running through New York would fit very easily on the early Hawkwind LPs... to say nothing of the re-formed Pistols tipping their hat blatantly to them with their cover of Silver Machine.

EDIT: for all Hawkwind's hippy noodling and quite frankly forgettable first LP, there is a lot of proto-punk stuff in there. If nothing else Lemmy's period certainly stands out as being such. Ignore the fact that half of every LP they were singing about spaceships and psychic powers and that half the tracks were twee instrumental nonsense and listen to some of their heavier tunes, and you'll see that I'm not entirely off the wall with this.


EDIT TWO: of course the irony is that after their proto-punk period the band caught on to the new punk sound and followed that vein themselves for a while.

thanx, i really hate it when people think that certain styles of music have specific sounds to them. which happens to be the reason i'm in this argument about punk music when i'm a jazz drummer. i like to keep an open mind to all forms of music.
yes, i am beginning to wonder whether this is a discussion of what is punk or a contest of who can name the most obscure bands or their close relationship to them.

Rancid? Joe Strummer? The Thex Pithtols? Uuuuuuuugh you guys need to listen to some REAL hardcore.

Okay, once you've listened to some Dekadent, Kaaos, Agathocles, Malignant Tumour, Silmaosasto, Electlic, Viimeinen Kolonna, Battle of Disarm, Schifosi, Comrades, Doom, Axiom, Poison Idea, Cornucopia, Pisschrist, Clusterbombunit, Total Chaos and Toxic Narcotic, we can resume this conversation.

Of course, once you've listened to all of them, you'll wear nothing but tight jeans, a black hoody with a studded leather jacket over it, a gassmask, chaos spikes, be throwing molotovs at logging companies and modelling your life on Tank Girl comics. So you probably won't feel like talking. Let's go blow up a digger and get pissed, mates! At least that's been punk rock in my experience. Says I listening to The Exploited at 3:17am writing a zine and arguing with would-be dictators on the internet.


I've only heard of about half of those bands, mostly through the radio station i used to work at. None were filed under Punk. They fall under Anger Rawk or HardCore.

Punk rock is The Clash, The Sex Pistols, Bad Religion, NoFX, Rancid, and their ilk. What you are listening to is angry hard core.

EVERYONE rights zines at 3am while listening to The Exploited. It's a tradition. What else would I listen to? Reagan Youth? It doesn't fit the mood.

Discharge?

You've been 'round PI? Bulllllshiiit, you lucky sod. I've got mates who've got their logos tatooed on 'em. I hope you're not lying.

Yeah, but it was only in 2002 or 2003, so it was hardly a classic lineup. A good gig though - they played half their planned set and then just took requests from the audience and ended up doing almost the entirity of the Feel The Darkness LP.

yes, i am beginning to wonder whether this is a discussion of what is punk or a contest of who can name the most obscure bands or their close relationship to them.

Sadly, that's what most of Punk Rock has become.

Which is why I no longer play in a punk band or consider myself a member of the local Punk scene. It just gets to being another clique after a while.

I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but I'll say it anyway.

"Punk is the personal expression of uniqueness that comes from the experiences of growing up in touch with our human ability to reason and ask questions."

-Greg Graffin

What you are listening to is angry hard core.
And what's wrong with that?

I guess the most obvious punk bands with jazz drummers are Victim's Family, Nomeansno and (mental block... am I thinking of) The Inbred(?).
actually, it's quite amazing how many punk bands have jazz drummers in them: The Police (again, i still remain adamant that they're punk) Green Day (yeah, yeah, they're sell outs) Victim's Family, of course, and yes the inbred to, i belive the drummer from sex pistols had some knowledge of jazz to begin with (but don't quote me on that, i think i might be thinking of a different band)

Rancid? Joe Strummer? The Thex Pithtols? Uuuuuuuugh you guys need to listen to some REAL hardcore.

Okay, once you've listened to some Dekadent, Kaaos, Agathocles, Malignant Tumour, Silmaosasto, Electlic, Viimeinen Kolonna, Battle of Disarm, Schifosi, Comrades, Doom, Axiom, Poison Idea, Cornucopia, Pisschrist, Clusterbombunit, Total Chaos and Toxic Narcotic, we can resume this conversation.

Of course, once you've listened to all of them, you'll wear nothing but tight jeans, a black hoody with a studded leather jacket over it, a gassmask, chaos spikes, be throwing molotovs at logging companies and modelling your life on Tank Girl comics. So you probably won't feel like talking. Let's go blow up a digger and get pissed, mates! At least that's been punk rock in my experience. Says I listening to The Exploited at 3:17am writing a zine and arguing with would-be dictators on the internet.

Aaaah, another Australian hardcore punk grrl. Unless you're also Mora-Tau, but with a different user name.

Discharge?

Free Speech! Free Speech! :)

Discharge?



Yeah, but it was only in 2002 or 2003, so it was hardly a classic lineup. A good gig though - they played half their planned set and then just took requests from the audience and ended up doing almost the entirity of the Feel The Darkness LP.

Man, I started this thread so I could have a laugh at the expense of a bunch of poseurs, but somehow you have gained my ULTIMATE respect.

Sadly, that's what most of Punk Rock has become.

Which is why I no longer play in a punk band or consider myself a member of the local Punk scene. It just gets to being another clique after a while.


unfortunately this isn't a new development. i gave up on the punk thing about ten years ago. when i see discussions like this i can see how little progress a movement comprised mostly of teenagers can make. fortunately, however, the associated music does continue to evolve.

Aaaah, another Australian hardcore punk grrl. Unless you're also Mora-Tau, but with a different user name.



Free Speech! Free Speech! :)


And, ha ha ha, no, actually, I'm her sister :) ha ha ha

Free Speech! Free Speech! :)

For the dumb.

yes, i am beginning to wonder whether this is a discussion of what is punk or a contest of who can name the most obscure bands or their close relationship to them.
what exactly does that have to do with anything i said? i just don't see the connection

Man, I started this thread so I could have a laugh at the expense of a bunch of poseurs, but somehow you have gained my ULTIMATE respect.

Better not blow it then by saying that I mainly listen to jazz-fusion like The Mahavishnu Orchestra or obscure american folk recordings from the 1930s these days then.


Anyhow... got to go. Off to do sound for a couple of the local punk bands (well, one stoner band, an Oi! band and a traditional spikey-topped punk band). Later.

And, ha ha ha, no, actually, I'm her sister :) ha ha ha

Haha, cool. :)

Mate, this an EXLUSIVE ELITE DOGMATICALLY punk thread. If you don't *at least* know Monkey from The Adicts, piss off.

(That was in response to Syndicalasia)

what exactly does that have to do with anything i said? i just don't see the connection


you were expressing ire over the inability of people to acknowledge variety in genres other than those they personally prefer. that kind of narrow-minded approach to discussion of music leads to one-upsmanship rather than actual discussion, which was my (related, i thought) lament. sorry for my stream of consciousness reply.

Awww c'mon, punk's like... 'well... shit... we're better than you' anyway, so what do you expect?

you were expressing ire over the inability of people to acknowledge variety in genres other than those they personally prefer. that kind of narrow-minded approach to discussion of music leads to one-upsmanship rather than actual discussion, which was my (related, i thought) lament. sorry for my stream of consciousness reply.
oh, i see it now, sorry, i just pulled an all-nighter with the band, writing songs, so my mind is kinda taxed out right now, not thinking properly

Mate, this an EXLUSIVE ELITE DOGMATICALLY punk thread. If you don't *at least* know Monkey from The Adicts, piss off.

(That was in response to Syndicalasia)


i can offer you a list of obscure bands and whatnot if you really want, i simply don't think it is productive.

Would I be stepping into the fire pit if I said punk rock was London Calling?

i can offer you a list of obscure bands and whatnot if you really want, i simply don't think it is productive.
i whole-heartedly agree, if you wanted to name obscure bands, than why didn't you name the thread "let's name obscure punk bands" not "what is punk rock?" cuz what we're doing right is discussing punk music

sorry, that second part was deliverd to kimia

oh, i see it now, sorry, i just pulled an all-nighter with the band, writing songs, so my mind is kinda taxed out right now, not thinking properly


and I stupidly just let a friend force-feed me a load of valium, so yeah, sorry from over here too

Would I be stepping into the fire pit if I said punk rock was London Calling?

Hahahaha, yes. Not only that, but you have just spontaneously combusted.

Hahahaha, yes. Not only that, but you have just spontaneously combusted.

*dies a horrible flame-consumed death*

*dies a horrible flame-consumed death*

Hey, the cloud of smoke kinda looks like Joe Strummer.

I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but I'll say it anyway.

"Punk is the personal expression of uniqueness that comes from the experiences of growing up in touch with our human ability to reason and ask questions."

-Greg Graffin

I quoted his entire manifesto. But it's good to see I'm not the only one who read it.

Here's a poem...

I guess this thread
Like punk
Is dead

Here's a poem...

I guess this thread
Like punk
Is dead
Here's one from me

Hahahahaha
hahahah
ha
hahahah

:p

Though please don't get me wrong, I was once a violent youth too. I would make my own bombs and blow shit up. I would punch a stranger in the mall. My friends and I use to find it funny to go to a public place, slap a thin strip of acid on someone's neck and follow them to see them flip-out (Very funny if you ever get the chance to do it).

I had my days, but I guess there's a difference between being a teenager punk and having to make a living and being punk. I just look for ways to undermine the system from the system.

I tell you what, if someone did any of that to me, I'd track him/her down, and then beat their head in.

punk: http://www.platinum-needles.co.uk/images/sid.jpg

Punk isn't about politics. It's about making life livable. Fucking up the things that fucks you up, while making an alternative for yourself & your mates.

Our culture is still alive & kicking, and it always will be.

We've evolved to something very different from the SP days, but that's not a bad thing, and it doesn't mean we're not thriving. We've made our own communities in almost every country on the planet. SP may have rocked a boat, but we're rocking the world.

And no, corporatism & capatism isn't very similar at all. Capitalism is far more similar to participatory economics, but unlike the latter, it's pretty much doomed to turn into a corporatist corruption fest.

Punk can be political. Look at Fugazi. I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find a band more DIY or punk than them.
Moves so slowly
Grows so smoothly
Takes so neatly
It's as if they belong and they've been here all along
Grows so smoothly
Moves so slowly
Takes completely
It's as if they belong and they've been here all along
This one's ours let's take another
Check the math here check in ten years
Clusterfuck theory buy them up and shut them down
Then repeat in every town
Every town will be the same
This one's ours let's take another
Five corporations there is a pattern

Well... ok. Anti-corporation. But I swear theres some more politics here somewhere.

Judging by the widespread use of "mate" in this thead, I'm assuming plenty of the people defining what punk rock is in here are British or Australian.

Now, maybe this is just me, but the British definition of Punk Rock would probably be about as accurate as the American definition of Junglism?

Punk can be political. Look at Fugazi. I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find a band more DIY or punk than them.
<Snip>
It's not that punk can't be political. I bet 95% of all punk, HC & Oi! music is political. But it's not what our culture is about. It's about putting the boot down & making a better place for us. Whether a couple of punkers in the local scene are capitalists, anarchists or a-political doesn't matter.

Geezer here. I don't know what the idea of 'punk' mutated into these days, and I really don't care. All I know is, when I got into it way back in 82, it wasn't about anything. At least not as far as the crowd I ran with cared. Sure there were the folks that ran around in the cool clothes and the cool hair and etc, and that was fine for them. And then there were the burn-outs and that was fine as well. All sorts of folks were running around like loons and calling themselves 'punk'. Enough about the intro.....

My own personal opinion (keep in mind it's an opinion, nothing more) is as follows.

Punk was about shocking mainstream people. This was done by the performance of lewd and crude actions, the wearing of tasteless and unusual garments, the ingestion of copious amounts of alchoholic beverages and the creation of music that was against everything mainstream music at the time was. It was trying to make something so unpalatable to Joe Public that they would curl up their toes and die.

My opinion. We now return you to the thread already in progress.

(BTW, if you ever get the chance to see 'They Eat Scum' the first film by Nick Zedd, you should. It'll show how different the idea of punk then and punk now are.)

It's not that punk can't be political. I bet 95% of all punk, HC & Oi! music is political. But it's not what our culture is about. It's about putting the boot down & making a better place for us. Whether a couple of punkers in the local scene are capitalists, anarchists or a-political doesn't matter.
That sounds right. I've ended up agreeing with people all night. Weird.

Now, maybe this is just me, but the British definition of Punk Rock would probably be about as accurate as the American definition of Junglism?

Are you claiming that punk is a solely American phenomenon?

Geezer here. I don't know what the idea of 'punk' mutated into these days, and I really don't care. All I know is, when I got into it way back in 82, it wasn't about anything. At least not as far as the crowd I ran with cared. Sure there were the folks that ran around in the cool clothes and the cool hair and etc, and that was fine for them. And then there were the burn-outs and that was fine as well. All sorts of folks were running around like loons and calling themselves 'punk'. Enough about the intro.....

My own personal opinion (keep in mind it's an opinion, nothing more) is as follows.

Punk was about shocking mainstream people. This was done by the performance of lewd and crude actions, the wearing of tasteless and unusual garments, the ingestion of copious amounts of alchoholic beverages and the creation of music that was against everything mainstream music at the time was. It was trying to make something so unpalatable to Joe Public that they would curl up their toes and die.

My opinion. We now return you to the thread already in progress.

(BTW, if you ever get the chance to see 'They Eat Scum' the first film by Nick Zedd, you should. It'll show how different the idea of punk then and punk now are.)
It's still about all that. The main difference between now & then, is that we have made it more than just counterculture.

EDIT: Well fuck me, but there was a lot more to it back in '82 as well.

I concur - I didn't mean to say that it is all apolitical; even the die-hard Oi! bands will often adopt lyrics that adress culture or society, if not politics.

I concur - I didn't mean to say that it is all apolitical; even the die-hard Oi! bands will often adopt lyrics that adress culture or society, if not politics.
I assume you mean trad skin Oi! bands or something similar? Most Oi! music is highly political. Nearly all of it actually. The old rumour that all Oi! music is about beer, footy & fighting is a joke. Even back when it started it was highly political.

The difference between Oi! & punk when it comes to politics, is that many Oi! bands either doesn't promote a specific political philosophy, or aren't anarchists. That said, there are several subgenres defined by their political ideologies.

The only pure Oi! band I can think of right now, who never sings about politics (and probably never will), is Deadline.

There are lots of different forms of punk. There's old punk: Clash, Kennedys, Sex Pistols etc

Then there's new punk: Distillers... ummm I'm sure you guys can come up with some more... but I don't listen to much new punk

Then there's pop punk: Good Charlotte, Blink 182, and my fave band Relient K

And then there's all the little sub genres and bands that don't really fit in any...

What isn't punk is wearing expensive "punk" clothes and dying your hair black... that's just trying to be cool

I'm sure all the old punk guys would agree that punk involves not caring what people think and being yourself instead of fitting into any stereotype, including the "punk" one

Er.. Mainly thinking about the Danish Oi! punk bands, here. The difference around here is that Oi! bands are largely apolitical and play a more raunchy, sing-a-long kind of punk rock, whereas other bands go haywire assaulting society and politics from an anarchist viewpoint.

Refering more to the earleir pages, if you're fighting conformity, why bother labelling yourselves? Since punk is such a vague term, you might as well use another one that does not mislead. That a rose by any other name will smell as sweet shit, you know?

Also, I see people who refer to punk as the mentality, or punk as in the music. Well, yeah, that the hell. Classical music can mean simply music in the classical period, music that sounds like the music in the classical period, or music that are classic. If you want to unify the meaning (because meaning to word is merely what we give to it), might as well do it on Dictionary.com or Wikipedia. Then start paying for ads "Click here for the True Meaning of punk." Bribe your goverment to make a statement of what punk really is too, if you're rich. I honestly don't give a shit. I'll just refer them to bands that sound like <insert>, or better yet, treat them as individual bands... or call them wannabes, depends.

What is punk?
A dead kind of rock music with a special fashion style.
You can not tell some punk bands from rock bands if not for the spike hair.
And this "anarchist" fashion was so popular that is not even funny. Remeber Madonna, David Bowie or Billy Idol!
For me "real" punk is lousy music and geek clothes...
Except for The Exploited...hm...Sex Pistols...and a handful of other long gone bands.
Anyway someone who is wearing such a strange uniform wants attention and to belong to something rather that to be a rebel.
Punk is the classic example of revolution turned in to a norm.
I saw so many kids with spiked hair and boots this summer that it made me sick :sniper:
Forget about a genre or a fashion! Just listen to the music and if you like it that is all it is. There is no need to put a tag on it (except in a music shop) or turn your life after some bullshit someone is paid to say. You can not be original even in your anger?

To the 'rebel' mass product girl Kimia:This kind of brainless talk with weird and unreal judgements about things you don't have a clue and the rude and agressive bark instead of arguments made me dislike punk even as a teen.

And this "anarchist" fashion was so popular that is not even funny. Remeber Madonna, David Bowie or Billy Idol!

Okay, so Madonna incorporated some elements of late seventies punk fashion into here wardrobe when she was starting out, and Billy Idol went from idiot loon dressed in punk clothing while fronting Generation X to idiot loon dressed in punk clothing while endorsing consumer goods and living in LA, but I fail to see the connection between David Bowie and 'anarchist' fashion...

My own personal opinion (keep in mind it's an opinion, nothing more) is as follows.

Punk was about shocking mainstream people. This was done by the performance of lewd and crude actions, the wearing of tasteless and unusual garments, the ingestion of copious amounts of alchoholic beverages and the creation of music that was against everything mainstream music at the time was. It was trying to make something so unpalatable to Joe Public that they would curl up their toes and die.



I agree mostly, but of course punk evolved. And like any evolution there were branches along the family tree.

You got things like SoCal hardcore, which was more punk and less like NYC hardcore or Lockport Hardcore. You had bands like NoFX and The Descendants that were more about having a laugh at the upper class and still being down to earth.

Then there were bands like the Clash, Bad Religion, and Operation Ivy that turned it around and said "Bring Punk to the Political and social arena".

Unfortunately, we now have that bastard, Piltdown man type, cousin of punk. Bands for them are Simple Plan and Good Charlotte, which aren't really punk, but they sure do dress like they are.

And of course there are the Pop-Punks like 10 Foot Pole, Green Day (who only recently became political), and the like.

So Punk can't really even be defined as a fashion statement (No one in NoFX or Bad Religion ever had a Mohawk), or a musical genre as it has evolved into something different.

Balipo>> Sounds like someone didn't listen to Green Day in their pre-Dookie incarnation - political thrash punk aplenty.

Militari>> You're getting the wrong idea. Punk is not as much about individuality as it used to be, as it is about antisociality - Kimia, and all the kids with boots, braces and spiked hair, whom you "loathe"; are getting exactly the response they want.

You may loathe them, but you would never dare say that to their face.. And they're good people underneath that intimidating facade, too, so drop the bigotry.

Balipo>> Sounds like someone didn't listen to Green Day in their pre-Dookie incarnation - political thrash punk aplenty.

Militari>> You're getting the wrong idea. Punk is not as much about individuality as it used to be, as it is about antisociality - Kimia, and all the kids with boots, braces and spiked hair, whom you "loathe"; are getting exactly the response they want.

You may loathe them, but you would never dare say that to their face.. And they're good people underneath that intimidating facade, too, so drop the bigotry.

*hands you a cookie*

Balipo>> Sounds like someone didn't listen to Green Day in their pre-Dookie incarnation - political thrash punk aplenty.

My mistake. I was more referring to the fact they they went about 7 years without making an album that was politically minded. I acknowledge Kerplunk and 1000 days and even Sweet Children (not as Green Day but as Sweet Children), which I only have on Vinyl. But some of the ones between Dookie and American Idiot were lacking in content.

Militari>> You're getting the wrong idea. Punk is not as much about individuality as it used to be, as it is about antisociality...

The irony here is that despite the outward appearance of antisociality (not washing, crudities scrawled over clothing, drinking to excess, a tendency to violent play, generally confrontational attitude, and the like) punk remains very much concerned with building social relationships.

Many of the kids entering punk and throwing themselves into the rebellious excess and gung-ho nihilism are actually doing so in order to form bonds with others in the scene. Creating a community is one thing which punk in all its various incarnations has exceeded at.

Okay, you weakling poseur scum I was arguing with in the pickup line thread... let's fight it out here. What do you weakling Good Charlotte lovers think punk is?

Punk is a rather juvenile form of rebellion, purpatrated by those bereft of the intellectual capacity to express their distaste in any other form than implyed and enacted violence.

Punk is a rather juvenile form of rebellion, purpatrated by those bereft of the intellectual capacity to express their distaste in any other form than implyed and enacted violence.

Ah, I love it when this happens - someone slags off other people for their limited intellectual capacity, but in doing so manages to spell words like 'perpetuated' and 'implied' incorrectly.

Ah, I love it when this happens - someone slags off other people for their limited intellectual capacity, but in doing so manages to spell words like 'perpetuated' and 'implied' incorrectly.

Don't you just love irony :)

Punk is a rather juvenile form of rebellion, purpatrated by those bereft of the intellectual capacity to express their distaste in any other form than implyed and enacted violence.

I disagree. I know several punks that bring out their rebellion in non-violent (be it implied or enacted) ways. Punk != violent.

I disagree. I know several punks that bring out their rebellion in non-violent (be it implied or enacted) ways. Punk != violent.

emo, emo, emo!

"Punk is a rather juvenile form of rebellion, purpatrated by those bereft of the intellectual capacity to express their distaste in any other form than implyed and enacted violence."

Yoo eedjit!

No, seriously, you don't know jack. Punk has a long history of intellectual dissent, and if you listened to some punk rock lyrics rather than talk out your ass, you'd know that.

Grampus>> Thanks! This was what I was getting at. Punk is about counter-culture, and shaping meaningful relationships rather than the comatose, plastic; smallminded excuse for a society we live in.

"Punk is a rather juvenile form of rebellion, purpatrated by those bereft of the intellectual capacity to express their distaste in any other form than implyed and enacted violence."

Yoo eedjit!

No, seriously, you don't know jack. Punk has a long history of intellectual dissent, and if you listened to some punk rock lyrics rather than talk out your ass, you'd know that.

Grampus>> Thanks! This was what I was getting at. Punk is about counter-culture, and shaping meaningful relationships rather than the comatose, plastic; smallminded excuse for a society we live in.

couldnt agree more.

emo, emo, emo!

I'll take that. I am pretty emo...got the glasses and shrug for it and I like emo music. But, again, not corporate emo like Simple Plan or Fallout Boy. More like Sunny Day Real Estate.

"Punk is a rather juvenile form of rebellion, purpatrated by those bereft of the intellectual capacity to express their distaste in any other form than implyed and enacted violence."

Yoo eedjit!

No, seriously, you don't know jack. Punk has a long history of intellectual dissent, and if you listened to some punk rock lyrics rather than talk out your ass, you'd know that.

Grampus>> Thanks! This was what I was getting at. Punk is about counter-culture, and shaping meaningful relationships rather than the comatose, plastic; smallminded excuse for a society we live in.

That is, of course, entirely dependant upon the facet of "plastic" society you observe. It is irrefutably true, however, that Punk finds a political basis upon left wing, socialist ideals.

I'll take that. I am pretty emo...got the glasses and shrug for it and I like emo music. But, again, not corporate emo like Simple Plan or Fallout Boy. More like Sunny Day Real Estate.

That's because fall out boy are dire, especially grand theft autumn. Hawthorne Heights used to be great, and spitalfield rule.I simply think that most "punk" kids in the UK are more mindlessly violent than aware of their actions.

That's because fall out boy are dire, especially grand theft autumn. Hawthorne Heights used to be great, and spitalfield rule.I simply think that most "punk" kids in the UK are more mindlessly violent than aware of their actions.

why does no one get that punk was a late 70s thing? they probably arent punks, more somewhere along the line of twats/chavs

That's because fall out boy are dire, especially grand theft autumn. Hawthorne Heights used to be great, and spitalfield rule.I simply think that most "punk" kids in the UK are more mindlessly violent than aware of their actions.

I think this is where you draw the line between Punks and Gutter Punks. Gutter Punks are violent and non-intellectual. Punks generally aren't violent and seek intellectual ways to change the society which they are rebelling against.

Then there are Mall Punks...we won't even get into that.

As far as music...I like Straylight Run and Taking Back Sunday as far as newer emo goes. Hawthorne Heights is okay but I saw a live show of theirs and they couldn't do what they do in the studio...that's always a dissapointment to me.

Okay, you weakling poseur scum I was arguing with in the pickup line thread... let's fight it out here. What do you weakling Good Charlotte lovers think punk is?

*clears his throat and pulls on his collar nervously* Yeah... Someone's gonna hate me for this.

Don't try to define it. Stop now. Every time you try to define Punk you're just creating a new form of conformism. If Punk is really nonconformist, then it shouldn't be about conforming to "Punk" ideals. Take a deep breath and repeat after me: Punk is being yourself, not being Punk. Anyone trying to be a Punk is by definition not a Punk.

I play in a band, and some people might call our music Punk (if we were ever to actually preform it), but they'd be wrong. Any band which actively lables itself as "Punk" or "Non-conformist" is immediately disqualified from that.

So... Rather than saying what Punk is how about making it clear what punk isn't:

- Of any singular political thought.
- Violent, pacifist, or anything in between.
- About clothes, fasion, or hair.
- Vegan, Vegitarian, Flexitarian, or following the Atkins diet.
-And Most of all-
- Being Punk.

Yeah, that probably could have been clearer. What I'm saying is: Don't be a "Punk" or anything else. Don't allow yourself to conform, even in non-conformism. Be yourself.

*clears his throat and pulls on his collar nervously* Yeah... Someone's gonna hate me for this.

Don't try to define it. Stop now. Every time you try to define Punk you're just creating a new form of conformism. If Punk is really nonconformist, then it shouldn't be about conforming to "Punk" ideals. Take a deep breath and repeat after me: Punk is being yourself, not being Punk. Anyone trying to be a Punk is by definition not a Punk.

I play in a band, and some people might call our music Punk (if we were ever to actually preform it), but they'd be wrong. Any band which actively lables itself as "Punk" or "Non-conformist" is immediately disqualified from that.

So... Rather than saying what Punk is how about making it clear what punk isn't:

- Of any singular political thought.
- Violent, pacifist, or anything in between.
- About clothes, fasion, or hair.
- Vegan, Vegitarian, Flexitarian, or following the Atkins diet.
-And Most of all-
- Being Punk.

Yeah, that probably could have been clearer. What I'm saying is: Don't be a "Punk" or anything else. Don't allow yourself to conform, even in non-conformism. Be yourself.

*claps and hands you a gargantuan cookie*

Johnny would be proud.

While gutterpunks or Oi! Punks may be violent, obnoxious & braindead to outsiders, we aren't towards sensible humans. What you lot are doing, is simply to affirm the prejudice we hold against you. Don't worry. I already knew you would.

None of us want anything to do with you. We do care about your opinion, but we don't particularly care if any of you rotten sheeople ever wake the fuck up. Go right ahead & hate me and every other Oi! punk on the face of the planet. We want you to. It's so much easier to tell the sheeople from the humans when the rotten ones hates us. And yes, we are violent, and we are out to get you when you don't leave us the fuck alone.

I could talk at lenght about how Oi! punks usually display a hell of a lot more compassion, unity & respect amongst themselves & the people they like, than any other fringe group I've ever heard of, or how most of them know more about & care more about politics than 90% of the population... But There'd be no point. The humans in this thread already know it, and the rest of you might get the impression that some of us care about you, or aren't out to get you.

It's funny, though, how many of the anarchists think Oi! Punks are a-political. Considering how most of the sheeople can't overlook us even when they try, I think it's amazing plenty anarchists never notice how there's always a couple of Oi! Punk activists between them...
But maybe beating up maoist college kids when they try to celebrate the Chinese cultural massacre makes them think we're a-political? Oh well.. I don't really give a fuck. As long as they don't also start celebrating the systematic extermination of freedom, knowledge & poor people, we'll all get along fine.

Incidentially, Kinda Sensible people is mostly right, though for a weird reason.
If your idea of non-conformity held water, trying to list off what punk isn't would be an oxymoron. Non-conformity on a social scale, means to defy accepted social norms. Nothing more.
Little frustrated hiphoppers, chavs & whatever are all non-conformists... But if your definition of non-conformity (that you can't define it without conforming) makes you happy, go with it.
But I agree. Everyone should always be themselves. If everyone just cared about being themselves, doing things wholeheartedly, beer & sex, the world would be a fucking paradise.

While gutterpunks or Oi! Punks may be violent, obnoxious & braindead to outsiders, we aren't towards sensible humans. What you lot are doing, is simply to affirm the prejudice we hold against you. Don't worry. I already knew you would.

None of us want anything to do with you. We do care about your opinion, but we don't particularly care if any of you rotten sheeople ever wake the fuck up. Go right ahead & hate me and every other Oi! punk on the face of the planet. We want you to. It's so much easier to tell the sheeople from the humans when the rotten ones hates us. And yes, we are violent, and we are out to get you when you don't leave us the fuck alone.

I could talk at lenght about how Oi! punks usually display a hell of a lot more compassion, unity & respect amongst themselves & the people they like, than any other fringe group I've ever heard of, or how most of them know more about & care more about politics than 90% of the population... But There'd be no point. The humans in this thread already know it, and the rest of you might get the impression that some of us care about you, or aren't out to get you.

It's funny, though, how many of the anarchists think Oi! Punks are a-political. Considering how most of the sheeople can't overlook us even when they try, I think it's amazing plenty anarchists never notice how there's always a couple of Oi! Punk activists between them...
But maybe beating up maoist college kids when they try to celebrate the Chinese cultural massacre makes them think we're a-political? Oh well.. I don't really give a fuck. As long as they don't also start celebrating the systematic extermination of freedom, knowledge & poor people, we'll all get along fine.

Incidentially, Kinda Sensible people is mostly right, though for a weird reason.
If your idea of non-conformity held water, trying to list off what punk isn't would be an oxymoron. Non-conformity on a social scale, means to defy accepted social norms. Nothing more.
Little frustrated hiphoppers, chavs & whatever are all non-conformists... But if your definition of non-conformity (that you can't define it without conforming) makes you happy, go with it.
But I agree. Everyone should always be themselves. If everyone just cared about being themselves, doing things wholeheartedly, beer & sex, the world would be a fucking paradise.


Define sheeople.

It seems that all you are saying is that you are violent and/or don't care about anyone who isn't like you. Which makes you just as bad as any abercrombie clone walking the malls of America.

You aren't punk and you aren't an anarchist. You're just a jerk if that's your view of things.

*clears his throat and pulls on his collar nervously* Yeah... Someone's gonna hate me for this.

Don't try to define it. Stop now. Every time you try to define Punk you're just creating a new form of conformism. If Punk is really nonconformist, then it shouldn't be about conforming to "Punk" ideals. Take a deep breath and repeat after me: Punk is being yourself, not being Punk. Anyone trying to be a Punk is by definition not a Punk.

I play in a band, and some people might call our music Punk (if we were ever to actually preform it), but they'd be wrong. Any band which actively lables itself as "Punk" or "Non-conformist" is immediately disqualified from that.

So... Rather than saying what Punk is how about making it clear what punk isn't:

- Of any singular political thought.
- Violent, pacifist, or anything in between.
- About clothes, fasion, or hair.
- Vegan, Vegitarian, Flexitarian, or following the Atkins diet.
-And Most of all-
- Being Punk.

Yeah, that probably could have been clearer. What I'm saying is: Don't be a "Punk" or anything else. Don't allow yourself to conform, even in non-conformism. Be yourself.

Thanks for that one. And I'm surprised that this thread is still hanging around. I got bored when people begin debating with ignorance and calling me not punk because I'm educated.

Though I'd add one thing: Punk is being yourself but also being capable of uniting for a cause without conformity. If that makes any sense.

Define sheeople.

It seems that all you are saying is that you are violent and/or don't care about anyone who isn't like you. Which makes you just as bad as any abercrombie clone walking the malls of America.

You aren't punk and you aren't an anarchist. You're just a jerk if that's your view of things.
Sheeople = ones who cares fuck-all about anyone & anything but themselves, their loved ones & their social status/work. Usually easy to distinguish from people, by noticing how they react when they spot you walking down the street.

I don't care whether people are like me or not. It generally doesn't influence how I treat people. I don't arbitrarily jump people. Unlike you, it would seem.
I don't mind it one bit when sheeople show a healthy respect for me. I dislike them every bit as much as they dislike me, and I have no intention of being accomodating towards them.

Whatever you think of me is of no consequence to me. I have never said I'm an anarchist. I'm not. I'm not a pacifist either. But whether you like it or not, I'm an Oi! punker. And I always will be.

Oh well.. I don't know why I should defend myself. After all, you're just some elitist jerk-off with delusions of grandeur.
Know what? You can accept, or even embrace, that people are different. But you can't change them to fit your ideas. Just accept THAT and get over yourself.

Balipo and Similized:

You're both right. Just remember that punk isn't about saying you're punk or listening to 'punk' music or even showing the world that you're punk. It's about being punk. It's about knowing you're right when you're right and producing an explanation by any means when someone says you're not right. It's about making the status quo perfect.

Remember this: Punks are modern realistic superheros even though some refuse to accept that responsibility.

An Oi punk defining himself using Nietzschian terms...

Now I´ve really seen it all.

Why don´t you peeps stop arguing "punk is this","punk is that","Waaaah!Nonconformity is an oxymoron" and all that other stupid bullshit.Punk,yeah,it used to be a movement;Sometimes it still is.Thing is,everybody and their buddies have their own,regional view of punk;a view you won´t find on the other side of the world cause things aren´t the same there.The only thing that really defines punks is the look(be it Oi,rastaman,mohawk wtfever you´ll know a punk when you see one,regardless of stereotypes) coupled with a certain "fuck you" attitude.Everything else is just frills and arguing about it is as pointless as pointing out that you can´t be nonconformist and punk(which,essentially,isn´t true either...).

Why don´t we stick to what´s actually definable and what apparently started this thread: The music.

Why don´t we stick to what´s actually definable and what apparently started this thread: The music.

Actually, I was one of the reasons he started this thread which was an offshoot of another thread. It was intended to be a discussion of what punk is and showing some hatred for the Hot Topic punk.

Actually, I was one of the reasons he started this thread which was an offshoot of another thread. It was intended to be a discussion of what punk is and showing some hatred for the Hot Topic punk.

Hot Topic blows.

Hot Topic blows.

Very true. Nothing says rebelling from American consumerism as buying a $50 belt buckle, $50 belt, $100 pants where the legs are buckled together (God I hate that), and a $40 Misfits t-shirt.

Rancid? Joe Strummer? The Thex Pithtols? Uuuuuuuugh you guys need to listen to some REAL hardcore.

Okay, once you've listened to some Dekadent, Kaaos, Agathocles, Malignant Tumour, Silmaosasto, Electlic, Viimeinen Kolonna, Battle of Disarm, Schifosi, Comrades, Doom, Axiom, Poison Idea, Cornucopia, Pisschrist, Clusterbombunit, Total Chaos and Toxic Narcotic, we can resume this conversation.

Of course, once you've listened to all of them, you'll wear nothing but tight jeans, a black hoody with a studded leather jacket over it, a gassmask, chaos spikes, be throwing molotovs at logging companies and modelling your life on Tank Girl comics. So you probably won't feel like talking. Let's go blow up a digger and get pissed, mates! At least that's been punk rock in my experience. Says I listening to The Exploited at 3:17am writing a zine and arguing with would-be dictators on the internet.


Yeah Kaaos is great as many other European Hardcore like Discharge,Terveet kädet,Rattus,Riistetyt etc... But i still like the old punkrock like The clash and sex pistols and Ramones etc...

Sheeople = ones who cares fuck-all about anyone & anything but themselves, their loved ones & their social status/work. Usually easy to distinguish from people, by noticing how they react when they spot you walking down the street.

I don't care whether people are like me or not. It generally doesn't influence how I treat people. I don't arbitrarily jump people. Unlike you, it would seem.
I don't mind it one bit when sheeople show a healthy respect for me. I dislike them every bit as much as they dislike me, and I have no intention of being accomodating towards them.

Whatever you think of me is of no consequence to me. I have never said I'm an anarchist. I'm not. I'm not a pacifist either. But whether you like it or not, I'm an Oi! punker. And I always will be.

Oh well.. I don't know why I should defend myself. After all, you're just some elitist jerk-off with delusions of grandeur.
Know what? You can accept, or even embrace, that people are different. But you can't change them to fit your ideas. Just accept THAT and get over yourself.

I think you are misinterpreting what I was trying to say. Judging from the first post I responded to, you are saying that anyone not like you is not good enough. I think that is generally unfair. If you are happy to be Oi, then be Oi by all means. But at the same time, you are projecting an image of intimidation that illicits a response from people. Whether they embrace your ideals or reject them, it's unfair to judege them by a reaction you were hoping to get.

I don't know where the delusions of gradeur thing comes in. I never claimed to be a Punk-Rock-God or anything. As far as the anarchist thing, I think I got that from someone else's post and incorporated in. My apologies.

I would also adjust your definition of sheeople. It seems to me that you are judging this on outward appearance, an unfair predjudice that every punk rocker hates.

You're both right. Just remember that punk isn't about saying you're punk or listening to 'punk' music or even showing the world that you're punk. It's about being punk. It's about knowing you're right when you're right and producing an explanation by any means when someone says you're not right. It's about making the status quo perfect.

Remember this: Punks are modern realistic superheros even though some refuse to accept that responsibility.

Hem...ones again, true words of wisdom. I agree wholeheartedly (although superhero is an AWFULLY strong word).

Very true. Nothing says rebelling from American consumerism as buying a $50 belt buckle, $50 belt, $100 pants where the legs are buckled together (God I hate that), and a $40 Misfits t-shirt.

Yep. John and Sid openly expressed their views on that shit back in 1977 on their Scandinavian tour.

Fucking shit.

*runs in, hangs on to the doorframe while gasping for breath* Sorry to multi quote but I seem to have arrived a little late, *gasp*

You are in a union so you're punk? Unions are the most corrupt money grubbing entities known to the business world.
Damn right. I've dealt with the unions from both sides, as a worker and management. The good, honest reps are few and far between and are quickly crushed or forced out. I'm not anti union, but like many noble concepts, they don't seem able to withstand greed and corruption from within.

John's still going about his business, just as he always has. *snip* he's always acted that way. And just how is he "whoring" himself?
*ahem* "I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out of Here"?


Punk doesn't make sense until you take it to the point of nihilism, which is also paradoxical in nature. As to be a true nihilist you can't even conform to nihilistic system of moral beliefs.
:D Excellent!! When do we get on to Nietzsche? (...and that's "nee-chuh" NOT "nitch-ee" *grrrr*) ;)

(btw I find Vegans and Peta pretentious hypocrites of the first order, kinda like Mr Lydon.)
*ducks and looks around warily, waiting for the Vegan Death Squad*

*snip* look at the emergance of garage rock, which is flooding the UK charts
Emergence? Eh? Did the 90's not happen in some parts of the world?

punk is alot like jazz, it's not a SPECIFIC form of music, it's not a collection of lyrics, or a specific beat, it's the SOUL behind the music, what's driving the music, and the message that the music carries.
*winks to the camera through a haze of smoke* Mmmm, nice!

-----------------
Anyway, if you want punk, you want Swarm Of Lead, they were unreal! Wigan Punk Rules!! :p

Capitalism doesn't care for the weak, the disabled, the young or the old. And that is seriously wrong to me.

Right on! :mp5: I also hate capitalism!

Right on! :mp5: I also hate capitalism!

See, but capitalism in itself does.

Look back at my early posts. The perversion of capitalism which most people try to call capitalism doesn't. Capitalism supports that those who do well in the economy should help those who don't because it improves their chances to sell more and create better competition which produces a better economy. The only problem with modern interpretation of capitalism is that this no longer practised and thus the entire economy feels its effects.

Punk rock = crap!

I don't know, I may be old school, but I liked the Circle Jerks, The Ramones, The Sexs Pistols, Green On Red, and this one band from El Paso that I let stay at my apt. after a gig. They were pretty good too.

I don't know, I may be old school, but I liked the Circle Jerks...

How can you not love a punk band that had Debbie Gibson singing backing vocals for them?

Punk rock = crap!
Shows what you know about Punk, I suppose the Clash, The Sex Pistols, green Day, Ian Dury (Though i don't know if he can be classed as punk) Sham, The Raymonds (SP) and all the other quality bands are 'crap'

...Ian Dury (Though i don't know if he can be classed as punk) ...

I would label him as starting out with pub rock, and then spreading through various other genres such as soul, funk and music hall. Bless him.

I have 5 things too say

1.Viva el che
2.Power too the people
3.Sex pistols rock
4.Communism is the only way
and 5.never diss the punk way

Punk is being pissed of at the system, (weather you are anarchist or militant socialist) and showing it by protesting, making bombs, proving your teachers wrong, and of course kicking blink182 lovers, imagine a guy wearing a 50$ backpack with pre-knitted anarchy logo. It's like wearing a paper: "kick me!" or "throw a bomb at my house" ( I recomend mailboxes, they are fun to blow up)
Living in a squathouse is definitely punk too. Well there are a lot of things that make you punk, also there is no dresscode for being punk, whatever wannabees may think.
I end my message by: "free beer for the punks!"

I totally disagree. I'm a chick and when people see me with shaved head, leather jacket, oversized boots and leopard print tights, they get the FUCK out of my way. The image is still alive and kicking. More or less literally, too.

picture, picture, picture, picture, :D