NationStates Jolt Archive

It's irritating that people are coming on here just to disagree and clog up the space just to clog it up. This thread was the beginnings of an idea; not the idea itself. Therefore, there is going to be lots of posts with jokes about jousting and codpieces before we get to any issues like what is going to be done, how it's going to be handled and so on and so forth.

As for controversial members, I think if we can all attempt to KEEP OUR TEMPERS AND NOT POST ANGRY we will be okay. I've seen a lot of needless bickering that could have been stopped cold if one of the parties just stepped back, acted like an adult and DIDN'T REPLY.

I think one of the things we could do with this group among others is how to plan for civil protests in terms of organisation and recruiting willing members. Also, do members of this army (group, club, coalition, alliance?) want to present a united front? I mean if there's a thread on the General Board that is talking about gay issues do we want a representative to speak for us? I know some of the religious zealots get me so mad I just don't post so I don't get forum banned. But there are several people here who remain calm and erudite in the face of such ignorance, and it might be better if they spoke for the group. Does that idea suck, or what? I really don't know. Also, someone posted that perhaps we should state our sexuality/preferences, just so we know what we're dealing with; it could also be a good idea so we know how wide of a mix we have here.

As for me I'm a 31 year old straight female with hubby and kids. If all I'm good for here is to cheer from the sidelines, well you'll have a really uncoordinated, really loud cheering section of one. So far. :)

You are full of it... err them... great ideas I mean. :D

I like the representative thing, because I can go overboard and get nasty with someone when faced with blinding ignorance/personal attacks. But at the same time I think everyone should be in on those threads if they want to be just in case they have a good rebuttal that noone else thought of. Of course we could share that idea with the representative privately and have them present it in their own way. That's probably what you meant anyway. Once our think tank gets really good and we make our representative look like a genius and they end up being elected the leader of whatever country threy are from we'll all get to be their speech writers. :p

sweet how do i join?

Mesa I asked you to stop being so inflammatory on THIS thread (do whatever you want anywhere else, I don't care), because we should be able to get along if we are goig to work towards similar goals. Even if someone says something to you which could be construed as an attack, don't reciprocate. Think of it as a test for when we go to make our argument in the name of the group. I already expected this group to have disagreements on how to handle issues, and when you came in I knew those disagreements would increase 10 fold, but we really don't need to make statements like "People like you don't even know what facts are if they were to hit you on the head." (what people would that be?) or "You truly are full of it". Once again I will ask you to please be civil.

Nazz has a problem with me and makes personal attacks. I'm sorry but I'm not going to let these go unaddressed. I will clear up these falsehoods. I will do what I have to do. He doesn't have the same goals as me, and is constantly trying to undermine anything I say on this forum. He's just a troll.

Seeing the needless drama going on, I'd like to withdraw from this group.

Mesa, what Nazz said about you using Arnolds talking points and how you support Arnold looked true to me. Besides I did ask you to stop with the combative language didn't I? Now you come right back with calling him a troll, just beucase he doesn't agree with you and doesn't like you. You say the same thing about everyone who doesn't agree with you though.

And because of you people are now leaving the group that was fun at one time but is now just a big argument it seems. Are you here to argue with us or are you here to help us? Are you going to put down everyone in this group that doesn't agree with you or are you going to make your case for why you feel differently and ignore escalations into the arena of flammability? When someone suggests a course of action that you don't agree with, are you going to go off on them, or are you going to let the group decide what we as a whole want to do and accept that? Are you going to tell everyone they are too thick headed to listen to you and act as if you know better than everyone else and throw in how you have all this 'experience' and more 'credibility' than any of us, or are you willing to accept that different people have different points of view and that although you feel that your ideas are the best, this group is run democratically and the majorities opinion is what this group will follow? Honestly I don't expect much in the way of level-headedness from you, because of most of your posts in this thread.

I was more than willing to let you and anyone else join in the spirit of inclusiveness, despite my objections to so many of the things you say on this forum and the volatile way in which you address people who disagree with you. Despite the fact that I knew that you have disagreements with pretty much everyone on the members list. This group is about having fun and fostering understanding and I would hope that our members do their best to represent that agenda.

I just thought it important to jump in for a second and say HI, as well as endorsing this thread.

SINUHUE ENDORSES THIS THREAD!

[/streak]

Yes, count me in. Displaced Lights supports this 100% (but we aren't sure how this works - should I bake something?)

I just thought it important to jump in for a second and say HI, as well as endorsing this thread.

SINUHUE ENDORSES THIS THREAD!

[/streak]


lol <3

Miss ya Sinner! Thanks for the endorsement! Thats going on the first post.

Yes, count me in. Displaced Lights supports this 100% (but we aren't sure how this works - should I bake something?)


Meh, read thru the thread, you'll see we pretty much have gotten nothing done and no rules or agendas officially established.

You make me sick to my stomach.

I hate to fucking break this to you, but there are fundamentalists out there everywhere... in your country, in my country, in every country in the world. They don't like gay people. You can go stick your fingers in your eyeballs and blind yourself all you want... it doesn't change the pure facts.

YOU MAKE ME SICK.

Mesatecala: You've received multiple warnings, and even a forum ban for flaming and trolling. You still haven't listened to my advice in keeping your temper out of your posts, so let this be your FINAL unofficial warning. I'm tired of giving you advice every time I see you flaming or breaking the rules, to which you don't even listen to. Either you listen to my advice or you won't be in NS with this nation name for much longer. Am I making myself clear?

*slaps forehead*

I'm sorry that we even had to have a moderator come in to regulate things. I guess that is my fault for not having some sort of screening process or something. *shrug*

Now let's move on to planning shall we?

Hey if anyone wants to do the region thing that one dude was taking about earlier, I have a region you can move to (Island Of The Moon) which consists only of me and one of my puppets. If anyone doesn't want to leave their region, then it's probably best if we don't pursue that idea. It's seems liek a lot of work anyway when we already have this thread to talk on.

I don't want to move my main country to another region, I like where I am now, but I wouldn't mind creating a puppet to move there, if that seems the way to go. In the mean while, why don't we just ignore the flames and trolls and focus on what seems to be the point.

I proposed that equality for all be a plank in the platform (I will track it down and repost my original wording if needed). Does anyone else have ideas, rules, etc.?

Very well, euroslavia. I understand.

Mesa, what Nazz said about you using Arnolds talking points and how you support Arnold looked true to me. Besides I did ask you to stop with the combative language didn't I? Now you come right back with calling him a troll, just beucase he doesn't agree with you and doesn't like you. You say the same thing about everyone who doesn't agree with you though.

That's not what at issue here. He has to stop attacking me. Also no one here knows my positions on Arnold because I barely got into that.

And because of you people are now leaving the group that was fun at one time but is now just a big argument it seems. Are you here to argue with us or are you here to help us? Are you going to put down everyone in this group that doesn't agree with you or are you going to make your case for why you feel differently and ignore escalations into the arena of flammability? When someone suggests a course of action that you don't agree with, are you going to go off on them, or are you going to let the group decide what we as a whole want to do and accept that? Are you going to tell everyone they are too thick headed to listen to you and act as if you know better than everyone else and throw in how you have all this 'experience' and more 'credibility' than any of us, or are you willing to accept that different people have different points of view and that although you feel that your ideas are the best, this group is run democratically and the majorities opinion is what this group will follow? Honestly I don't expect much in the way of level-headedness from you, because of most of your posts in this thread.

Because of me? You are accusing me of things I did not do. I'm sorry people don't feel welcomed, but they are leaving on their own because they can't be civil about somethings. I sure would hope that Euroslavia sets the record straight and addresses these people too. You are just throwing these mean spirited remarks at me. What about your argument with Glinde? Are you sure it is fair or right to throw all the blame on me and use me as a scape-goat? It isn't nice, nor is it fair. But do what you want.

I'm out of this thread, and I'm out of this group. I will not help you guys at all. I will act in a civilized manner because I was asked to by a moderator and firstly it is the right thing to do. I will not be part of something where people take out their personal vendettas on other people. It doesn't accomplish what was stated, and in fact could hurt the cause. I am deeply sorry to Euroslavia, and others for my attitude. I should of tried to maintain control of myself in a better manner.

I also don't feel like I should part of something where people accuse me "of going off on them". I didn't do such a thing.

I was more than willing to let you and anyone else join in the spirit of inclusiveness, despite my objections to so many of the things you say on this forum and the volatile way in which you address people who disagree with you. Despite the fact that I knew that you have disagreements with pretty much everyone on the members list. This group is about having fun and fostering understanding and I would hope that our members do their best to represent that agenda.

Well it seems you have your way. I won't have anything to do with this anymore, and I'm sorry I interrupted this thread. Volatile? Nope. I didn't respond in a volatile manner.

This group is about alienating people as myself, and throwing me off as trash because I don't agree with the main line represented here. Whatever.

I'm withdrawing from this thread and from this group. Do what you want.

I quit!

Wait, I've got to join first, don't I...

Damn causality!

Hey if anyone wants to do the region thing that one dude was taking about earlier, I have a region you can move to (Island Of The Moon) which consists only of me and one of my puppets. If anyone doesn't want to leave their region, then it's probably best if we don't pursue that idea. It's seems liek a lot of work anyway when we already have this thread to talk on.

I could, since I am in my own region. However, if no one else does, I'll stay where I am and just keep this thread alive. Personally, I think we should scrap this and just create The LGBT Army Thread II or something to help remove the chaos in this thread.

Mmm... tell me the region and I'll extrude a portion of Dobbstown into it.

Did I not pledge allegiance to this fag? :p

Obviously, count me in on the straight-but-gets-drunk-and-does-funny-things categorical army here. :D

Personally, I think we should scrap this and just create The LGBT Army Thread II or something to help remove the chaos in this thread.
Yeah, sorry for contributing my own share of the chaos.

I'm talkign to you to give you the chance to have a real conversation.

okay well complain away, it amuses me. as soon as I am bored with it I shall use the ignore trigger and blast you into the land of the unseen. It's just that easy.

I don't see how you could know the reasons of those that are joining my homoclub. perhaps they are doing it for teh reasons stated in the first post. Some just like it cuz I called it an army. you like it cuz it gives you somethign to complain about. We all get something out of it.

Well, what I get out of it is that I get to meet, and talk with people WHO ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS WE GO THROUGH, AND WHAT WE PUT UP WITH AT THE HANDS OF INTOLERANT ASSHOLES. How's that for a reason?

Besides, my GLBT brothers and sisters are family to me in a way that even my own flesh and blood cannot be...nor can they understand. We are brothers and sisters in oppression and suffering...we are brothers and sisters in shared experience, in low self-esteem and guilt caused by intolerant assholes. We are self-affirming. I learned to be self-affirming thanks to my brothers and sisters who are GLBT, and to tell anyone who doesn't affirm me that they can go fuck themselves.

Let me just say....HA!

Oh that is very rich. Here let me make you feel better: I suck cock, I have a boyfriend, clay miner, fudge packer, fairy, homo, butt pirate, pansy, dancing queen and I am gay.

Happy Birthday, now do I need a club to remind people how gay I am, because we shouldn't be promoting equality for everyone! Just for minorities yay!

Some of the epithets you are throwing out could lead one to thinking you are a severe closet case in denial. It is not uncommon for a closet-case in denial to vilify gay folks thinking that somehow, it will "cure" them. And that is well-documented, too.

Welcome aboard n00berts

*hazing*


mesa to be fair there's no reason to question Glindes reason for not liking that he thinks this group is about flaunting our sexuality.

honestly Glinde, whether you belive it or not - I started this group exactly for the reasons I stated. I want to have a think tank to counter the anti-LGBT stuff here on NS and such like that.

Well, quite frankly, I am not flaunting MY sexuality, since I HAVE no sexuality!! My last sexual encounter was back when Clinton was in his first term as President! And it wasn't exactly consensual, either. Granted, I didn't put up much of a fight, but it was more or less a situation where I felt somewhat obligated...because the guy in question had done something that all but saved my life, and wanted a little something from me, and who was I to refuse?

Generally, I am pretty much asexual. I don't really want sexual relations with anyone or anything. I like the other aspects of a relationship, and often wish for a male companion who also wanted a sexless, yet romantic relationship. so far, I've not found this.

I am, as I mentioned, T. I'm transgender...male-to-female. Had the operation nearly 3 years ago now. And this had nothing to do with my sexual orientation, because my orientation is asexual. It had everything to do with how I see myself, and how I wanted the world to see me, and how I wanted them to interact with me.

Even a lot of G & L people don't quite get the T thing. B's are a little closer, I think, to understanding, than are a great many G's and L's. I particularly got pissed at a rather well known G activist by the name of Jim Forrat? who I refer to as Jim Four Rat. He actually suggested all T's were just gay men in denial, and that he "looked forward to the day that G was so accepted that T's would no longer feel it necessary to mutilate their bodies in order to express their true sexuality." That royally pissed me off! How DARE he make assumptions about my feelings, my motivations, and my sexuality. And how dare you, Glinde?

Damn. You really are full of sour grapes. You are so mean. I certainly wouldn't want to be your boyfriend.

The club i'm part of... the LGBT Alliance at my campus organize rallies and such to help promote awareness and civil rights. It isn't about flamboyance or sex.

Then you ask "what anti-LGBT stuff"?

You're full of it. There are a lot of people in this forum who make attacks against gay people. Quite a few religious conservatives.

It almost seems like you want to stop equal rights for gay people (contradicting yourself) because you FEEL LIKE PEOPLE SHOULDN'T PROMOTE CIVIL RIGHTS.
Dang, Mesa...as much as we disagree on many topics, you coulda took the words right outta my mouth on this one! Great post!

What is the guy's problem? I used to like him.. thought he was cool.. but man.. did he wake up on the wrong side of the bed or something?

Nah. That's not it. Someone pissed in his Cheerios. :D

Really...go take a pill. It doesn't change the 'pure fact' that this club is pointless and makes you all appear as if you need attention.

As for this clubs meaning...oh yes I had a read...great reasons "I like the word army" ooooooh i can feel a revolution on it's way *gets tingles*

Oh and I'm listening to All That Jazz...is that gay enough yet, maybe I should get some Streisand on and wear a cute little pink cap to the side?

If you aren't gay yourself...as you claim...and you are not for the oppression of gay people...then why are you so threatened by us? Your aggressive responses speak louder than you know.

Thats a good idea and I had the idea (later after I started the group) to focus on issues other than LGBT stuff in this group. I was just recently stuck on LGBT issues because of the recent Calif Gay marriage debaucle, so I started a group that focused on just that because it was on my mind. It's probably best if we stick with a smaller set of issues.

Maybe you should start that other group. sounds like you could come up with some killer ideas and perhaps rally a bunch of people to your cause. I would probably join it.
Based on his words and reactions so far, I would not belong to any club that counted Glinde among it's membership.

Army of
Peace and
Equality

A.P.E. - !

And you know, he's right insofar as that acronym reminds me of the phrase, "fans of the smirking chimp", i.e. Busheviks. Funny old world. Oh, and I'm still quit, there's just nothing else interesting going on the forums right now.

Well, I have to agree... APE does remind me a lot of Bush...if, of course, you shave it's ass and walk it backwards!

If you aren't gay yourself...as you claim...and you are not for the oppression of gay people...then why are you so threatened by us? Your aggressive responses speak louder than you know.

Glinde is gay though.... I'm not sure why he is so afraid of this....

I think we should start from fresh. Again I apologize to everyone in this thread.

And I hate people assuming I do something for a reason I'm not doing it. This is a very limited view you're presenting here...
I am here to exchange ideas about how to handle people who for some reason find my lifestyle, and with that my presence, unacceptable. If I wanted to flaunt my homosexuality, I'd be running around town dressed in drag harrassing men.

Fuck, I'm not? Damn...

Thanks for perpetuating the stereotypes that cause transgender people like me to have problems with straight folk!! Why don't you think about what you say, and what affect it will have on others?

Militant gays? What are they going to do, flip out and set anti-gays on fire with vaseline? ;)

Just joking, best of luck. But please don't turn into a bunch of bitching harpies like a certain other movement did.

Well, then, give us our rights and our equality...that we deserve. Most of us would rather just live our lives free of harrassment, and be left the hell alone to do it.

We just want to do what we want to do...love who we love...and not be harrassed or punished for it. Or to have it used against us in employment-related decision-making.

I don't want to move my main country to another region, I like where I am now, but I wouldn't mind creating a puppet to move there, if that seems the way to go. In the mean while, why don't we just ignore the flames and trolls and focus on what seems to be the point.

I proposed that equality for all be a plank in the platform (I will track it down and repost my original wording if needed). Does anyone else have ideas, rules, etc.?

I would not mind moving one of my puppets...but not my main nation, this one. Lyric is, of course, Founder of the Region I am currently in. And no way am I leaving that. But I'd move a puppet in. I have three available puppets.

Hey you should try to consolidate your posts into one post.. instead of double or triple posting...

Glinde is gay though.... I'm not sure why he is so afraid of this....

I think we should start from fresh. Again I apologize to everyone in this thread.

For once, Mesa...you needn't apologize to me, because you actually haven't been nasty to me. But if it makes ya feel better, I accept your apology.

For once, Mesa...you needn't apologize to me, because you actually haven't been nasty to me. But if it makes ya feel better, I accept your apology.

It was other people mainly that I was snappy at.

Sounds like a neat group. I hope that I'm not to late to join the list. I'm bi myself, though I'm currently still a virgin. :D

It's not too late, I'll add you. I agree we should start a new thread. I don't want to do it now though, I'm playing The Kingdom of Loathing and then I am going to go get high and go to bed.

Hi folks!
This is my puppet (main nation Lyric) that I would move into the proposed GLBT Region, if we get one created.

Once I get past 500 Million, and can thus change the beginning of my nation name, we will be The Tropical Islands of Tranzsexuals.

anyone is welcome to "Island of the moon" - there's nobody there but me.

anyone is welcome to "Island of the moon" - there's nobody there but me.

But are you the Founder? And can we make the Region such that only GLBT and allies may join? And so that disrupters can be given the boot?

...There is no agenda.

The "agenda", if they want to call it that, probably goes something like this:

1. Everyone is equal.
2. You don't harass and insult me, I won't harass or insult you.
3. We'd like the get married and adopt kids.

That's it.

Now tell me, how militant does that sound? It's really, really not. A lot of the Christian Right just like to blow things like gay rights way, waaaaaay out of proportion and generally get everyone angry. Somebody probably needs to put a stop to their antics.

The christian fundies think that if we, GLBT people, get equal rights.. we will try to convert their children into being gay... ridiculous I know. But that is the thinking of many brain-dead fundies.

So which is it Mesa--are you in or out? On page 18, you claimed to be out. Now I don't care if you decide to stay or not--you've obviously got a stake in this debate--but if you're out, then I'd like to know because I'd like to invite Dobbsy to come back. So which is it--are you in or out?

Whoa!! Did you guys create a region? Bugger! I gots to go found me anuver nation!

Hmmm people keep asking why I 'fear' this Army.

Well I fear it like I fear a Cheer Leading Club. It appears to be full of people that thought they would have the same idea's on things but all it's achieving is bitchyness and a strong desire to be precisely polically correct about everything. Yawn.

It continues to have people joining for reasons including "joining to quit" and "joining because this one time when I was drunk..." and further more apparently now there is plans for a spokesperson? This is a internet forum people. Please go spend your time preaching to actual people, not liberals and other gays whose opinions vary so slightly that it is invalid what the opinion is.

I truly have nothing wrong with this board, I just wish people would re-direct there energies towards something that would help. Learn about laws before you bitch, learn about councelling before you suggest I'm a 'closet fag', thats right, I'm a closet fag with a boyfriend who I hug and kiss in public. AND YOU KNOW WHAT sure, I copped my fair share, i had a ciggarette thrown at me, i got sworn at twice on one road, and i some ass slide his spit through my hair, and that all happened this week, don't tell me I'm a closet fag. Don't tell me I'm not striving for my damn rights, but christ I am putting up flyers, I am making public speeches. Not threads and not harping to 14 year old christians who are making threads about God. The best solution for getting over fear of gays is meeting a gay person but my worst fear is being introduced as "Brendan, my gay friend." because I know most of us here are much more than just gay. It's not a choice, it's not a lifestyle, it's just something you do.

Finally, great, straight people are joining this groups to be cheer leaders to, ya know thats fantastic, but once more it's wasted energy. What would I do? I would just make a thread saying "What's your problem world?" and wait for who has a problem then all these gay people and gay supporters would pounce. When I see this Army creating a rally, a website or a flyer I'll post it all over town. Until then, I'll stop posting here and hope you create something other than a group of anger and posts of news reports.

Best of luck.

It's not too late, I'll add you. I agree we should start a new thread. I don't want to do it now though, I'm playing The Kingdom of Loathing and then I am going to go get high and go to bed.
Wow. This reminds me so much of every single political organisation I've ever been involved in. People who should have the most in common, fighting amongst themselves tooth and nail...kind of reminds me why I ditched politics and just went straight into action. I just have three things to say:

1) Discussion is good. But please don't let it divide you.
2) We're not all the same. But at the core of our beliefs should be respect for human rights.
3) We can be united in our diversity.

This idea may have some false starts, and will probably go through many changes, but that's real life, we are real people, and the biggest problem with communication is misunderstanding.

Wow. This reminds me so much of every single political organisation I've ever been involved in. People who should have the most in common, fighting amongst themselves tooth and nail...kind of reminds me why I ditched politics and just went straight into action. I just have three things to say:

1) Discussion is good. But please don't let it divide you.
2) We're not all the same. But at the core of our beliefs should be respect for human rights.
3) We can be united in our diversity.

This idea may have some false starts, and will probably go through many changes, but that's real life, we are real people, and the biggest problem with communication is misunderstanding.

I must agree with you 100%. Very well-said.

Oh, and... I thought you left :p.

anyone is welcome to "Island of the moon" - there's nobody there but me.

This is me, Upper Botswavia, actually, it is my puppet. I have moved this puppet to Island of the Moon.

But are you the Founder? And can we make the Region such that only GLBT and allies may join? And so that disrupters can be given the boot?


Yes I am the founder.

Wow. This reminds me so much of every single political organisation I've ever been involved in. People who should have the most in common, fighting amongst themselves tooth and nail...kind of reminds me why I ditched politics and just went straight into action. I just have three things to say:

1) Discussion is good. But please don't let it divide you.
2) We're not all the same. But at the core of our beliefs should be respect for human rights.
3) We can be united in our diversity.

This idea may have some false starts, and will probably go through many changes, but that's real life, we are real people, and the biggest problem with communication is misunderstanding.


Yup and thats what I expected to happen to to keep happening. Especially after seeing what has transpired so far.

I don't care what happens, I am just going to have fun and do what I think is helpful.

This is me, Upper Botswavia, actually, it is my puppet. I have moved this puppet to Island of the Moon.

Hey welcome to our new LGBT region :)

So which is it Mesa--are you in or out? On page 18, you claimed to be out. Now I don't care if you decide to stay or not--you've obviously got a stake in this debate--but if you're out, then I'd like to know because I'd like to invite Dobbsy to come back. So which is it--are you in or out?


Actually, after the TG he left me I would rather he not join personally. I'd like Fass, Dobbs and Sarzonia to come back.

army=joinage=me please! <3

The password to join the region Island Of The Moon is "LGBT" - that's just to keep wanderers out.

As disagreeable and pessimistic as Glinde is he did have a good idea, which I had already considered as well. What about a website? What features could we have if we did do something like that. I know I am getting way ahead of myself as we really haven't decided anything yet :p but it's still something to think about and keep in the back of our collective mind.

I'm a web programmer and I have free webspace (although that server I have it on is highly unstable and down way too often *G*). So, if we decide to proceed with something like that, I 'll try to convince Dobbs to help with graphics but if not I got a little bit of photoshop experience. :D

some thoughts I have for the prospective site are:

- essays or whatever that would basically be like the "fostering understanding" thread series I was talking about.

- mailing list sign-up for spreading news to the willing masses when the time comes

- a message board maybe?

- free classified ads or maybe extreemely cheap ads (maybe after we see if the site gets enough traffic) just to pay for the site

- I am learning flash so hopefully sometime soon I will be able to write some fun little cheesy flash games. At this point though I could write text-based games.

- links to petitions/rallies/pressing news stories or LGTB victories

- ???

The password to join the region Island Of The Moon is "LGBT" - that's just to keep wanderers out.

sounds good,sign me up for this army o teh gay

btw,the password is not working.

Yes, that sounds very good...

I would love to help if I can... I am not strong on the tech end, but am a writer and would be happy to contribute text or editing time.

By the way, just to keep things sort of... (I hesitate to say it) straight... could you change my name on the list from Upper Botswavia to It Is Just Me? Thanks.

sounds good,sign me up for this army o teh gay

btw,the password is not working.

did you try lowercase? let me know if that works or not please. and welcome to the group.

did you try lowercase? let me know if that works or not please. and welcome to the group.

thats what i tried,lowercase.and upper.unfortunately i tried too many times and am now 'temporarily blocked from moving into password-protected regions'.i didnt know that would happen.

EDIT:ok now i can try again.can you confirm the password so i dont have to wait around again?

Yes, that sounds very good...

I would love to help if I can... I am not strong on the tech end, but am a writer and would be happy to contribute text or editing time.

By the way, just to keep things sort of... (I hesitate to say it) straight... could you change my name on the list from Upper Botswavia to It Is Just Me? Thanks.


Marvelous! Yeah I'm a no good writer or editor so that would be swell!

I'll change the listed name for ya.

If anyone wants to go thru this thread and gather already suggested ideas, rules and whatnot and put them in one post, that would be great. :fluffle:

thats what i tried,lowercase.and upper.unfortunately i tried too many times and am now 'temporarily blocked from moving into password-protected regions'.i didnt know that would happen.

EDIT:ok now i can try again.can you confirm the password so i dont have to wait around again?

okay try it again - i confirmed the password as being lgbt - if it doesn't work, then I will just scrap the pass-protection idea altogether.

okay try it again - i confirmed the password as being lgbt - if it doesn't work, then I will just scrap the pass-protection idea altogether.

it worked,i be in.w00t.

Actually, after the TG he left me I would rather he not join personally. I'd like Fass, Dobbs and Sarzonia to come back.
Good enough for me. I put him on the tg ignore list a long time ago. You want to send the invites or shall I? :D

Do you have to be LGBT to join this region, or are heterosexual males who support total equality in?

Just so i know.

Do you have to be LGBT to join this region, or are heterosexual males who support total equality in?

Just so i know.
You're talking to just about the most heterosexual guy on the planet here, and I'm a member. :D

You're talking to just about the most heterosexual guy on the planet here, and I'm a member. :D

Oh, i doubt that ;)

Ok, i'm in.

Good enough for me. I put him on the tg ignore list a long time ago. You want to send the invites or shall I? :D

You send em - nobody likes me anymore because I'm too lenient on the acceptance policy :p :D


Wow I didn't even know there was a tg ignroe list.

Do you have to be LGBT to join this region, or are heterosexual males who support total equality in?

Just so i know.

I like your moxie kid

Your in!

So which is it Mesa--are you in or out? On page 18, you claimed to be out. Now I don't care if you decide to stay or not--you've obviously got a stake in this debate--but if you're out, then I'd like to know because I'd like to invite Dobbsy to come back. So which is it--are you in or out?

I'm out. This group has been rendered ineffective thereofer I can no longer be part of it. I no longer have a stake in this group. I'll work on my own.

You send em - nobody likes me anymore because I'm too lenient on the acceptance policy :p :D


Wow I didn't even know there was a tg ignroe list.
Done, and yeah, I discovered it completely by accident. Glad I did.

The password to join the region Island Of The Moon is "LGBT" - that's just to keep wanderers out.
*complain* Always...it is the "T" last... :( *complain*

You send em - nobody likes me anymore because I'm too lenient on the acceptance policy :p :D


Wow I didn't even know there was a tg ignroe list.

Yeah...sure, ignore the TG's...just like certain GLB groups did for ages...LOL, no, I'm kidding, I know you mean telegrams here and not transgender. But I need to get across how seriously P.O.'ed I'm going to be if TG issues don't get equal time. And equal consideration.

*complain* Always...it is the "T" last... :( *complain*

because one of the letters has to be last... I'll rotate those letters in my posts for you.

Yeah...sure, ignore the TG's...just like certain GLB groups did for ages...LOL, no, I'm kidding, I know you mean telegrams here and not transgender. But I need to get across how seriously P.O.'ed I'm going to be if TG issues don't get equal time. And equal consideration.

Equal time with this group or with whom exactly?

If you mean this group then thats why you are here... to keep us honest as well as point out the issues we are missing.

But if you do get P.O.'d, please try to handle your complaints calmly. In fact, I think you are the perfect person to help us form an organized way of dealing with proposals, suggestions and complaints, since you are very concerned with issues getting equal time - I'm betting you could think of a good way to make sure that happens. Anyone else with suggestions on how to accomplish this please chime in as well.

Hi I am known as Avolon in the NS world, and I represent a region called The Exodus. This thread has just recently been brought to light to me by a fellow member of the region. I and The Exodus would be honored to join in the cause you have started. :) :)

The Exodus has long held diversity and tolerance high. We have been fighting to stamp out discrimination in NS since the region was founded. LGBT's have been living in mutual respect and friendship with hetero's in TE for as long as I can remember, and it is our hope that by joining forces we might expand that way of thinking throughout NS. Thus breaking the bigoted mindset some people bring to the game and maybe making them stop and think in RL too. :D

Ya know as irritating as I'm finding Glinde's almost useless posts on this thread he did have one good point; Find out the laws. If there is going to be a website, it might be a good idea to start listing what the laws are in each state. I'm not sure how much space that might take up, but I'm thinking a simple list of which states support/deny rights would be a good idea. It may not hurt to also list agencies that could help someone if they think they are being discriminated against because of transgender or sexual orientation issues.

I've found I can change a lot of people's minds about gay people just by the mere fact I've had/have gay friends and people who were previously prejudiced against them seem to have a need to talk about it with a 'neutral' third party. I never waste an opportunity to try to change someone's backwards thinking. Now that's a righteous cheering section!

Lyric, I'm sorry I can't include transgender in the above statement; it's only because I've never known any, and honestly until I started reading some of your posts I had no idea there was issues involved for you and others. You'll have to forgive my ignorance, and perhaps you could TG me and give me some ideas and/or pointers.

Ya know as irritating as I'm finding Glinde's almost useless posts on this thread he did have one good point; Find out the laws. If there is going to be a website, it might be a good idea to start listing what the laws are in each state. I'm not sure how much space that might take up, but I'm thinking a simple list of which states support/deny rights would be a good idea. It may not hurt to also list agencies that could help someone if they think they are being discriminated against because of transgender or sexual orientation issues.

I've found I can change a lot of people's minds about gay people just by the mere fact I've had/have gay friends and people who were previously prejudiced against them seem to have a need to talk about it with a 'neutral' third party. I never waste an opportunity to try to change someone's backwards thinking. Now that's a righteous cheering section!

Lyric, I'm sorry I can't include transgender in the above statement; it's only because I've never known any, and honestly until I started reading some of your posts I had no idea there was issues involved for you and others. You'll have to forgive my ignorance, and perhaps you could TG me and give me some ideas and/or pointers.


Well, let me just start you off with this....
You do not cast aside the rights of one minority group to gain rights for a different minority group. HRC has been guilty of this for the past ten years, and is, quite frankly, a big bone of contention with me. they have used the TG's as a pawn for ages with our legislators, with regards to ENDA..."OK, give us GLB's our rights, and we'll sell the queens down the river!" That is NOT the way you go about advocating for civil rights!!

But HRC insists that this makes civil rights legislation "more palatable" to reluctant legislators. More PALATABLE?!?!? WTF?!?! You already see where my bone of contention is now, don't you?

And HRC keeps telling us...oh, help us, help us, TG folks...give us money, help us get ours, and we'll come back for you later! Yeah, right they will!

You know, I understand the concept...some of the first settlers to America left their families behind, promising to send the boat back for them. the difference is...in their case, the boat DID come back for them. We T's do not believe HRC has any intention of sending the boat back for us.

I was, fairly recently, a spark plug in changing the City Charter in Austin, Texas...my former home...to include gender identity, so that it became illegal, in the city of Austin, to discriminate in employment, housing, and public accomodations, based on gender identity. This passed in 2004.

It had been illegal, SINCE 1975...to discriminate based on SEXUAL ORIENTATION in the same areas we just got protected in...TWENTY-NINE YEARS LATER!!! And not because the gay communtiy did a damn thing about it...or did any damn thing to help us....if not for me lighting a fire under a few people's asses, it never woulda been done AT ALL!!

So, we T's are natually suspicious of the motivations of GLB people...we have much bitter history. So, there's a very basic outline for you, of the issues involved for us.

Here's more....

When we had an ice storm in Austin, in 2001, I lived in an apartment that was all-electric...and we lost power for 40 hours. That means I had no way to cook, no hot water, no heat, no nothing! They opened up some public shelters to help. But, being a transgender person (at the time pre-op) there was no way for me to take advantage of these facilities. They would not put me in with the women...where I would have been more comfortable. And I refused to be put in with the men, as that would, firstly, place me in great physical jeopardy...and secondly, make me extremely uncomfortable, and thirdly, be a denial of my gender identity. They just didn't think of people like us.

Similarly, in the aftermath of Katrina...there was a pre-op transsexual woman who was fucking ARRESTED for using the women's shower in a public shelter. She had already lost everything, and then THIS...on top of it all! The indignity we suffer is beyond your ability to comprhend. But I'll give you a link to the article about the transgender woman being arrested that I just mentioned, so you can read about it for yourself.

Here ya go!!

http://www.theeagle.com/stories/091005/local_20050910003.php

When we had an ice storm in Austin, in 2001, I lived in an apartment that was all-electric...and we lost power for 40 hours. That means I had no way to cook, no hot water, no heat, no nothing! They opened up some public shelters to help. But, being a transgender person (at the time pre-op) there was no way for me to take advantage of these facilities. They would not put me in with the women...where I would have been more comfortable. And I refused to be put in with the men, as that would, firstly, place me in great physical jeopardy...and secondly, make me extremely uncomfortable, and thirdly, be a denial of my gender identity. They just didn't think of people like us.


Wow, that's so unacceptable... not that you don't know that of course. I only hope I never end up in a similar position. Never been all that great in situations that draw attention to myself.

Well, as you know I'm an 'ol married woman with two kids. But I 100% support the equal rights of everyone. I have many, in fact countless L/G/B/T friends. So count me in. If you so chose. :)

Well, as you know I'm an 'ol married woman with two kids. But I 100% support the equal rights of everyone. I have many, in fact countless L/G/B/T friends. So count me in. If you so chose. :)


like we'd stop you from joining.if the idea is equal rights then anyone can join.

like we'd stop you from joining.if the idea is equal rights then anyone can join.

Then sign me up! :)

Wow, that's so unacceptable... not that you don't know that of course. I only hope I never end up in a similar position. Never been all that great in situations that draw attention to myself.

Oh, I could tell ya lots more personal stories that illustrate the general unkindness and thoughlessness displayed to transgender people. Yeah, we got issues unique to us, and I want to be sure those issues are known, and discussed, inthis thread/region, wherever we are going with this.

Perhaps there I'll share some more personal stories of services denied, outright mistreatment, etc. I have received from people who were supposed to help...and all just because I am transgender.

Sometimes the mistreatment is malicious. Other times, it is the result of thoughtlessness. But, in either case, the effect is the same.

like we'd stop you from joining.if the idea is equal rights then anyone can join.

What the hell? Equal rights? Which looney thought of that idea? Supremacy all the way, baby! I say that Steph can join, but she must make a focused effort to bring her sexual orientation out of the gutter of heterosexuality.



:D

Well, as you know I'm an 'ol married woman with two kids. But I 100% support the equal rights of everyone. I have many, in fact countless L/G/B/T friends. So count me in. If you so chose. :)

Stephie...if you ain't welcome, then neither am I!

Welcome aboard!

Then sign me up! :)

if you want move your nation,or a puppet to Island of the Moon,thats sort of become our HQ.the password is lgbt.

What the hell? Equal rights? Which looney thought of that idea? Supremacy all the way, baby! I say that Steph can join, but she must make a focused effort to bring her sexual orientation out of the gutter of heterosexuality.



:D
The Master of Satire!! :D

What the hell? Equal rights? Which looney thought of that idea? Supremacy all the way, baby! I say that Steph can join, but she must make a focused effort to bring her sexual orientation out of the gutter of heterosexuality.



:D

Hey, I didn't get to pick what sexual orientation I was anymore than anyone else did. ;)

if you want move your nation,or a puppet to Island of the Moon,thats sort of become our HQ.the password is lgbt.

I moved my UN puppet in.. :)

Thanks, Lyric, for the heads up. I never would have known any of this.
Ugh, I hope I've never been this thoughtless to someone out of ignorance.

OK... I read a good suggestion a couple of pages back that someone go through this whole thread again and pull out all the good ideas.

I volunteer to do this, if someone else comes up with a good (better than back here in this thread, I mean) place to put them so we can look them over and formulate a plan as to how to proceed.

Any thoughts?

:)

BTW, I am glad that we have gotten back to being civil around here...

Sign me up. I'm AC/DC.

A small but militant faction of Dobbworlders has splintered away from our dank orbital stronghold and has claimed a thousand-mile long swath of beaches, fjords, and exclusive holiday resorts, until very recently belonging to Sumamba Buwhan in the region of the Island of the Moon.

Well, you did say to make myself at home... Wanna snorkel?

Count me in also.

For the thread, not the snorkelling.

OK... I read a good suggestion a couple of pages back that someone go through this whole thread again and pull out all the good ideas.

I volunteer to do this, if someone else comes up with a good (better than back here in this thread, I mean) place to put them so we can look them over and formulate a plan as to how to proceed.

Any thoughts?

:)

BTW, I am glad that we have gotten back to being civil around here...
Go for it, dude. You could start a new thread or you could tg Sumamba when you get it put together and ask for some advice.

Go for it, dude. You could start a new thread or you could tg Sumamba when you get it put together and ask for some advice.Well, since it seems as though the drama seems to have dissipated, I'll be the first (?) to return to the group.

And let me just say I applaud including those who strenuously support equal rights for us even if they're not gay. That's one major reason I want in.

Go for it, dude. You could start a new thread or you could tg Sumamba when you get it put together and ask for some advice.

LOL... I am not a dude, but thanks for your encouragement! I have done it, put together a summary of the main ideas, and am sending a TG to Sumamba to figure out how to proceed with it from here.

LOL... I am not a dude, but thanks for your encouragement! I have done it, put together a summary of the main ideas, and am sending a TG to Sumamba to figure out how to proceed with it from here.


Post it here since this is where the majority of members can see it for now. Thanks for doing that btw! :)

oh and lol @ "cookie baker" for the army!

If I counted right we now have 44 members. Hope I got everyone on the list. Let me know if I haven't.

This is the information that I pulled from this thread and tried to organize in a coherent way. I did edit most of it down, especially where similar ideas were posted multiple times, and tried to catagorize it into specific topics to be decided on by the group. If I left anything important out, let me know, and I can add it. I did not credit everyone directly for their very good ideas, but rather let this be the ideas of the group as a whole.


What are we?
Several suggestions were:

1) A support group to help each other out with our problems
2) A community, banded together to organize against discrimination here on NS
3) A community, banded together to organize against discrimination elsewhere


Two main ideas of what we should be doing came up in several posts:

1) Working here on NS create a series of threads called “Fostering Understanding”, designed to educate and discuss relevant issues.
a. Create a thread devoted to listing topics of discussion, with input both from members and non-members of the LGBT Army. The idea here being that we will find issues that others are interested in, as well as learning who our opponents will be in a particular debate
b. Compile debate points for these issues, including the points of the opposition. When starting a new thread, list all the opposition points first, then discredit them all at once.
c. Keep the thread in the series linked back to the main topic list, as the topics will most likely overlap, so that we can avoid having to repost the same argument over and over, but instead can just refer back to the other threads.
d. Look at past topic threads and skim them for compelling arguments, rather than start new ones. (Link to these arguments as well?)
e. Word new threads in such a way that they don’t degenerate into gridlock where both sides end up agreeing to disagree as posters come and go.
f. Avoid religious arguments. Focus on secular law, secular society, discrimination, etc.

2) Create an online zine, with the same goals as the “Fostering Understanding” series
a. We could all serve as reporters, writing essays, commentaries, fact sheets, cartoons, etc. on LGBT issues.
b. Essays could follow the same format as the “Fostering Understanding” thread series, present the opposing arguments, explain our points, etc.
c. Share LGBT art.
d. Provide links to petitions/rallies/pressing issues, news stories about LGBT victories, etc. Perhaps also trade links to other similar sites as ours?
e. Have a mailing list sign up for spreading news to the willing masses when an issue comes up that they can help with (perhaps a protest to join, a petition to sign, etc.?)
f. Create a basic listing of local/state/country laws for reference purposes, a simple list of places that allow/deny rights, also lists of organizations to help if one is being discriminated against because of transgender or sexual orientation issues.
g. Have a message board?
h. Have some games, text based or flash?
i. Free/cheap classified ad space?
j. Have an advice column

3) Other things proposed that we could do (possibly in conjunction with what seem to be the two main ideas?)
a. Become a think tank
b. Offer a listening ear and offer advice based on personal experience to NS members
c. Write letters in support of our issues
d. Plan civil protests, organize and recruit willing members
e. Pinkify the Eiffel Tower, Big Ben and the Statue of Liberty
f. Have fun while we are doing all of the above



Rules/Platform/Agenda
These are things that people have proposed that sounded “platform like”. Some may not agree with each other, but they seemed like the place to start to form a unified platform

1) We welcome everyone, LGBT and straight, if they are sympathetic to our issues
2) Our goals should not be to advance a particular viewpoint, but to foster an understanding of the issues.
3) We should avoid religious arguments
4) We should present a united front. Have one member be a spokesperson for each issue, which we could discuss amongst ourselves before hand. Have that spokesperson be one who will be able to discuss calmly and not be upset and harried by the opposition
5) Everybody is created equal. Everybody! Even straight people should have equal rights to the LGBT community, and we support them in their heterosexuality, and think that their marriages are a fine thing, and that they should certainly be allowed to adopt children. We can use this to support the Straight Pride group.
6) We should remember not to focus too much on the issues of homosexuality in males and remember there are homosexuality in females and bisexuality and transgendered/transsexual issues as well
7) We should arm ourselves and attack the existing homophobic armies of the world. Shame on them for their “don’t ask, don’t tell” policies. If you want to wear fluffy pink or leather in the desert, go for it. Practicallity should be thrown out the window if it prevents you from expressing yourself.
8) We should all keep our tempers and not post angry. Needless bickering could be avoided if one of the parties stepped back and didn’t reply to inflammatory posts.
9) We believe that
a. Everyone is equal
b. You don’t harass and insult me and I won’t harass or insult you
c. We’d like to get married and adopt kids
10) We believe that
a. Discussion is good. But please don’t let it divide you.
b. We’re not all the same. But at the core of our beliefs should be a respect for human rights.
c. We can be united in our diversity.
11) Nothing is required of our members, indifference (might I suggest that be changed to tolerance?) is all we ask.



Statements of purpose
These I copied almost verbatim, as they seemed to stand on their own as possible statements of purpose.

1) My GLBT brothers and sisters are family to me in a way that even my own flesh and blood cannot be...nor can they understand. We are brothers and sisters in oppression and suffering...we are brothers and sisters in shared experience, in low self-esteem and guilt caused by intolerant assholes. We are self-affirming. I learned to be self-affirming thanks to my brothers and sisters who are GLBT, and to tell anyone who doesn't affirm me that they can go fuck themselves.
2) Give us our rights and our equality...that we deserve. Most of us would rather just live our lives free of harassment, and be left the hell alone to do it.
3) We just want to do what we want to do...love who we love...and not be harassed or punished for it. Or to have it used against us in employment-related decision-making


Questions that were brought up

1) Do we need a better/different name?
2) Should we all include the LGBT Army in our signature lines? Can we get some sort of graphic too?
3) Should we all tell what our sexual orientations are?


Issues that were brought up for discussion

1) Student Sues District Over Lesbian Kissing
2) HIV – Doujin posted a link to a very interesting essay
3) The marginalizing of transgendered/transsexual people even within the LGBT community
4) “Straight Pride”
5) Equal marriage rights, specifically in reference to California’s recent voting, and whether such issues should be addressed in legislatures or the courts.


Leadership

Nadkor nominated Sumamba as leader.

Sumamba suggested a leadership council, also that the council have an odd number of people on it, so no ties in voting

Sumamba nominated Doujin as leader


Other information that should not get lost

The region called “The Exodus” expressed a desire to get on board with us. Someone should follow up on this one once we have settled other issues and get them involved.

oh and lol @ "cookie baker" for the army!


SOMEONE needs to provide the after battle snacks! :D

It is Just Me, that is a great list and I appreciate all your hard work. I had no idea we came up with so much good stuff already.

You are so funny with keeping "Pinkify the Eiffel Tower, Big Ben and the Statue of Liberty" as a goal. :D

... I'm not sure how much space that might take up, but I'm thinking a simple list of which states support/deny rights would be a good idea.

How about making that "countries"?

Also, how about a news digest -- just a collection of short items posted by NSers who've read them in their country's Press. Wouldn't have to be just laws or protests; positive stuff too. Properly sourced, natch, and not long.

That's the sort of thing we could use in posts or in conversations. Anecdotes are a lot less scary than statistics when you're chatting in the tea-room.

BTW, can any other Ozzes update me on the Howard legislation? Their anti-union stuff has obsessed me so much I haven't checked on what got pushed through before the 2004 election. Did they manage to pass that one about not recognising any gay marriages legally performed outside Australia? I know the ALP rolled over for some of it, but did it all go through?

Edit: Sorry, I must have been writing this while It Is Just Me was posting. You've already got the suggestions I had.

LOL... I am not a dude, but thanks for your encouragement! I have done it, put together a summary of the main ideas, and am sending a TG to Sumamba to figure out how to proceed with it from here.
I meant dude in a purely asexual way? ;)

Sorry about that, and thanks for the list. Great work.

stupid sick and wrong...all of you.

How about making that "countries"?

Also, how about a news digest -- just a collection of short items posted by NSers who've read them in their country's Press. Wouldn't have to be just laws or protests; positive stuff too. Properly sourced, natch, and not long.

That's the sort of thing we could use in posts or in conversations. Anecdotes are a lot less scary than statistics when you're chatting in the tea-room.

BTW, can any other Ozzes update me on the Howard legislation? Their anti-union stuff has obsessed me so much I haven't checked on what got pushed through before the 2004 election. Did they manage to pass that one about not recognising any gay marriages legally performed outside Australia? I know the ALP rolled over for some of it, but did it all go through?

Edit: Sorry, I must have been writing this while It Is Just Me was posting. You've already got the suggestions I had.


Not at all! Good idea, making it country rather than state (or perhaps listings by country, then state, region, etc. as needed). I usually try to live somewhere outside my own head, but often forget to get further out than my own country, which is a mistake. You are correct in pointing out that this group is NOT limited to just the USA, but encompasses the world. Thanks!

I know nothing at all about this Howard legislation, but would be interested to know more.

So, as to what we should do... I am liking the idea of a web zine more and more, and folks who are interested in particular topics (like the Howard thing) could report on them.

stupid sick and wrong...all of you.

Someone should report this person for flames, or at the very least trolling. I would, but I hate reporting anything to moderation. That whole thicker skin thing I got while I was a mod. :p

Someone should report this person for flames, or at the very least trolling. I would, but I hate reporting anything to moderation. That whole thicker skin thing I got while I was a mod. :p

Meh, I say we just ignore the person - unless they come in here and keep posting hate speech like that multiple times. It's best just to not give them the time of day so that they see how futile their actions are when they don't get a response.

Meh, I say we just ignore the person - unless they come in here and keep posting hate speech like that multiple times. It's best just to not give them the time of day so that they see how futile their actions are when they don't get a response.

Well that's usually what I do too. Just thought I would mention he did troll and it would be actionable.. but I have grown such a thick skin over the last almost 3 years around here, nothing shocks nor really angers me anymore. I just take it for what it's worth, which is usually not much. ;)

Meh, I say we just ignore the person - unless they come in here and keep posting hate speech like that multiple times. It's best just to not give them the time of day so that they see how futile their actions are when they don't get a response.
We should use it as our tagline...."The LGBT Army; stupid, sick and wrong"

Wow, after all the bickering that brought me to the verge of leaving, there actually has been done some work. Sorry I wasn't here to help. From now on, I will be again.

I like that list, very much so, but I have one question: What is meant with "offer counseling to NS members"? I wouldn't want anyone to think we are a team of proffesionally trained psychologists or something of that sort. How 'bout "offer a listening ear and advice on a 'been-there-done-that' basis"? That would at least make me feel more comfortable.

Creating an online zine (which is an online magazine, I imagine) sounds like a wonderfull idea to me. If it's possible, I'd like to write a collumn for it. I could also function as a correspondent for the Netherlands, where I live. Although I don't live anywhere near Amsterdam, our gay capitol, I can report the important news from here and test some gay clubs in my hometown.

Well that's usually what I do too. Just thought I would mention he did troll and it would be actionable.. but I have grown such a thick skin over the last almost 3 years around here, nothing shocks nor really angers me anymore. I just take it for what it's worth, which is usually not much. ;)


yeah same here - I dont mind a verbal floggin now and then, I will take action against those who actually attempt to disrupt us

We should use it as our tagline...."The LGBT Army; stupid, sick and wrong"


lol - I'd be all for it.

Wow, after all the bickering that brought me to the verge of leaving, there actually has been done some work. Sorry I wasn't here to help. From now on, I will be again.

I like that list, very much so, but I have one question: What is meant with "offer counseling to NS members"? I wouldn't want anyone to think we are a team of proffesionally trained psychologists or something of that sort. How 'bout "offer a listening ear and advice on a 'been-there-done-that' basis"? That would at least make me feel more comfortable.

Creating an online zine (which is an online magazine, I imagine) sounds like a wonderfull idea to me. If it's possible, I'd like to write a collumn for it. I could also function as a correspondent for the Netherlands, where I live. Although I don't live anywhere near Amsterdam, our gay capitol, I can report the important news from here and test some gay clubs in my hometown.

Glad that you stayed with us!

Yes what I meant by counseling was more liek a suggestion that we could be a listening ear and offer advice based on personal experience.

As for the online eZine - of course you may write a column for it! And were you suggesting doing reviews of gay clubs and hangouts? If so thats an awesome idea. Also we could have a list of movies and music concerning the TLGB community.

I have made two modifications to the list, changing"local/state" to "local/state/country", and "counsel" to "offer a listening ear and advice based on personal experience".

Both excellent suggestions... keep them coming and I will keep refining as we go!

Looks like we should start a second list of people who volunteer to contribute, and what they want to do. As I seem to have volunteered to be list coordinator, I would be happy to keep this list too. So if you have something that you would be interested in doing to contribute (Wanna be the theatre critic? Have a hankering to be spokesperson on the "treatment of transgendered people" debate? Like to research local laws from your country and summarize them for a list? Got another better idea?) post it here and I will put a list together.

Thanks, Lyric, for the heads up. I never would have known any of this.
Ugh, I hope I've never been this thoughtless to someone out of ignorance.

Well, if you have in the past, now you won't be in the future. We T's have many issues that people who are not T would never have even THOUGHT of, you are far from alone in your ignorance (and I'm using ignorance in it's literal definition of "uninformed" here...contrary to popular belief, ignorance is not a synonym for stupid.)

You're quite welcome for the heads-up. As I said, I have lots more personal stories...and stories of things that have happened to other T friends of mine.

The problem is...MOST people are ignorant of these issues. I'd like to believe that most of the insensitivity and meanness actually comes from ignorance, rather than maliciousness. Ignorance can be cured.

If you like, then...one more story....

I had recently moved from Pennsylvania to Kentucky, and needed a new endocrinologist (this is the doctor who deals with hormones...mostly with diabetics, but many also help transsexuals to obtain hormone treatments) I went to the University of Louisville Hospital, on appointment, to see the endocrinologist there. They already knew I was a transsexual seeking hormone replacement therapy.
They kept me waiting some two and a half hours, and then, finally, a distinctly Middle-Eastern male doctor whose name I long since forgot, came in to see me. He was intensely curious as to whether I had male or female genitalia, and so he was making me exceedingly uncomfortable. Many T's do not want ANYONE to look at or touch their birth genitalia...they are repulsed by it. Of course, with a doctor who is going to be giving medical treatments, one must make allowances, and so you have to grit your teeth and bear it.
Well, this doctor saw fit to look up my skirt, saw the male genitalia (I was, at the time, pre-op) and then left the examining room without a word.
Five minutes later, he returned, with the head of the endocrinology department, and informed me he would not be able to treat me, due to his religious convictions, and that no other doctor connected to that hospital would help me, either. My retort was..."but your religious convictions didn't stop you from satisfying your own curiousity and looking up my skirt, even after I'd already TOLD you I was pre-op!! Your so-called religious convictions didn't stop you from subjecting me to that kind of humiliation, did they?!?

I finally found a different endocrinologist in private practice who would treat me...and I turned in the doctor who had done this to me to the Jefferson County Medical Board. They had a meeting, where I was invited to attend, and give my side. The doctor who did this was reprimanded for his actions, after I explained to them that I felt he had no business looking up my skirt, because he'd already made up his mind that he was not going to treat me...and he threrefore had no business looking. They agreed with me, and then asked me how would I recommend such a situation be handled in the future.

I told them that there was another doctor in town who WOULD treat us, and that this doctor should dimply refer prospective patients to this doctor without comment, and without looking up anyone else's skirt. I told them that we didn't want to hear his religious condemnation of us, nor did we want a doctor who wasn't going to treat us - to cut down on us. I told them that, if he liked, the doctor could merely say that he had little to no experience in dealing with transgender patients, and that he therefore was not comfortable treating us, and refer us to the other doctor, who would treat us.

That was the end of it. But that is just another example of ignorance...and of maliciousness...and thoughtlessness that we T people endure. And, I might mention...for all you GLB folk who might be reading this...it does NOT cost you $30,000 to be your brand of queer!

This is the information that I pulled from this thread and tried to organize in a coherent way. I did edit most of it down, especially where similar ideas were posted multiple times, and tried to catagorize it into specific topics to be decided on by the group. If I left anything important out, let me know, and I can add it. I did not credit everyone directly for their very good ideas, but rather let this be the ideas of the group as a whole.


What are we?
Several suggestions were:

1) A support group to help each other out with our problems
2) A community, banded together to organize against discrimination here on NS
3) A community, banded together to organize against discrimination elsewhere


Two main ideas of what we should be doing came up in several posts:

1) Working here on NS create a series of threads called “Fostering Understanding”, designed to educate and discuss relevant issues.
a. Create a thread devoted to listing topics of discussion, with input both from members and non-members of the LGBT Army. The idea here being that we will find issues that others are interested in, as well as learning who our opponents will be in a particular debate
b. Compile debate points for these issues, including the points of the opposition. When starting a new thread, list all the opposition points first, then discredit them all at once.
c. Keep the thread in the series linked back to the main topic list, as the topics will most likely overlap, so that we can avoid having to repost the same argument over and over, but instead can just refer back to the other threads.
d. Look at past topic threads and skim them for compelling arguments, rather than start new ones. (Link to these arguments as well?)
e. Word new threads in such a way that they don’t degenerate into gridlock where both sides end up agreeing to disagree as posters come and go.
f. Avoid religious arguments. Focus on secular law, secular society, discrimination, etc.

2) Create an online zine, with the same goals as the “Fostering Understanding” series
a. We could all serve as reporters, writing essays, commentaries, fact sheets, cartoons, etc. on LGBT issues.
b. Essays could follow the same format as the “Fostering Understanding” thread series, present the opposing arguments, explain our points, etc.
c. Share LGBT art.
d. Provide links to petitions/rallies/pressing issues, news stories about LGBT victories, etc. Perhaps also trade links to other similar sites as ours?
e. Have a mailing list sign up for spreading news to the willing masses when an issue comes up that they can help with (perhaps a protest to join, a petition to sign, etc.?)
f. Create a basic listing of local/state/country laws for reference purposes, a simple list of places that allow/deny rights, also lists of organizations to help if one is being discriminated against because of transgender or sexual orientation issues.
g. Have a message board?
h. Have some games, text based or flash?
i. Free/cheap classified ad space?

3) Other things proposed that we could do (possibly in conjunction with what seem to be the two main ideas?)
a. Become a think tank
b. Offer a listening ear and offer advice based on personal experience to NS members
c. Write letters in support of our issues
d. Plan civil protests, organize and recruit willing members
e. Pinkify the Eiffel Tower, Big Ben and the Statue of Liberty
f. Have fun while we are doing all of the above



Rules/Platform/Agenda
These are things that people have proposed that sounded “platform like”. Some may not agree with each other, but they seemed like the place to start to form a unified platform

1) We welcome everyone, LGBT and straight, if they are sympathetic to our issues
2) Our goals should not be to advance a particular viewpoint, but to foster an understanding of the issues.
3) We should avoid religious arguments
4) We should present a united front. Have one member be a spokesperson for each issue, which we could discuss amongst ourselves before hand. Have that spokesperson be one who will be able to discuss calmly and not be upset and harried by the opposition
5) Everybody is created equal. Everybody! Even straight people should have equal rights to the LGBT community, and we support them in their heterosexuality, and think that their marriages are a fine thing, and that they should certainly be allowed to adopt children. We can use this to support the Straight Pride group.
6) We should remember not to focus too much on the issues of homosexuality in males and remember there are homosexuality in females and bisexuality and transgendered/transsexual issues as well
7) We should arm ourselves and attack the existing homophobic armies of the world. Shame on them for their “don’t ask, don’t tell” policies. If you want to wear fluffy pink or leather in the desert, go for it. Practicallity should be thrown out the window if it prevents you from expressing yourself.
8) We should all keep our tempers and not post angry. Needless bickering could be avoided if one of the parties stepped back and didn’t reply to inflammatory posts.
9) We believe that
a. Everyone is equal
b. You don’t harass and insult me and I won’t harass or insult you
c. We’d like to get married and adopt kids
10) We believe that
a. Discussion is good. But please don’t let it divide you.
b. We’re not all the same. But at the core of our beliefs should be a respect for human rights.
c. We can be united in our diversity.
11) Nothing is required of our members, indifference (might I suggest that be changed to tolerance?) is all we ask.



Statements of purpose
These I copied almost verbatim, as they seemed to stand on their own as possible statements of purpose.

1) My GLBT brothers and sisters are family to me in a way that even my own flesh and blood cannot be...nor can they understand. We are brothers and sisters in oppression and suffering...we are brothers and sisters in shared experience, in low self-esteem and guilt caused by intolerant assholes. We are self-affirming. I learned to be self-affirming thanks to my brothers and sisters who are GLBT, and to tell anyone who doesn't affirm me that they can go fuck themselves.
2) Give us our rights and our equality...that we deserve. Most of us would rather just live our lives free of harassment, and be left the hell alone to do it.
3) We just want to do what we want to do...love who we love...and not be harassed or punished for it. Or to have it used against us in employment-related decision-making


Questions that were brought up

1) Do we need a better/different name?
2) Should we all include the LGBT Army in our signature lines? Can we get some sort of graphic too?
3) Should we all tell what our sexual orientations are?


Issues that were brought up for discussion

1) Student Sues District Over Lesbian Kissing
2) HIV – Doujin posted a link to a very interesting essay
3) The marginalizing of transgendered/transsexual people even within the LGBT community
4) “Straight Pride”
5) Equal marriage rights, specifically in reference to California’s recent voting, and whether such issues should be addressed in legislatures or the courts.


Leadership

Nadkor nominated Sumamba as leader.

Sumamba suggested a leadership council, also that the council have an odd number of people on it, so no ties in voting

Sumamba nominated Doujin as leader


Other information that should not get lost

The region called “The Exodus” expressed a desire to get on board with us. Someone should follow up on this one once we have settled other issues and get them involved.

Forgive my obvious paranoia here...but...Exodus International is the name of the group that fundamentalist asswipes use to try to force conversions from gay to straight...and so we should VERY CLOSELY examine the intent and agenda of any group that chooses the name "Exodus!!"

We should use it as our tagline...."The LGBT Army; stupid, sick and wrong"

No way. If that becomes our tag line, I'm out!
I will not be associated with a group that gives energy to those kinds of thoughts!

Forgive my obvious paranoia here...but...Exodus International is the name of the group that fundamentalist asswipes use to try to force conversions from gay to straight...and so we should VERY CLOSELY examine the intent and agenda of any group that chooses the name "Exodus!!"

I concur! That did occur to me as well, and I have not followed up on it... but the post earlier in the thread indicated that this group was very PRO LGBT issues and encouraged tolerance and acceptance in their region. Do you want to follow this up for us and go check them out? If they are legit, then it might be good to point out the problem with their name to them, as they may not be aware.

By the way, I googled "The LGBT Army" just for giggles, and only pulled up references to us... so maybe it is a name we should stick with, since at the moment we seem to own it.

No way. If that becomes our tag line, I'm out!
I will not be associated with a group that gives energy to those kinds of thoughts!
Never encountered the idea of using what others say to insult you as something to promote yourself with?

"sick, stupid and wrong" is exactly the attitude we are fighting, by using a line like that we make a mockery out of the message behind it.

I have made two modifications to the list, changing"local/state" to "local/state/country", and "counsel" to "offer a listening ear and advice based on personal experience".

Both excellent suggestions... keep them coming and I will keep refining as we go!

Looks like we should start a second list of people who volunteer to contribute, and what they want to do. As I seem to have volunteered to be list coordinator, I would be happy to keep this list too. So if you have something that you would be interested in doing to contribute (Wanna be the theatre critic? Have a hankering to be spokesperson on the "treatment of transgendered people" debate? Like to research local laws from your country and summarize them for a list? Got another better idea?) post it here and I will put a list together.


Well, quite frankly...as I am the only T that I know of on this list...it would seem logical that I should be our spokesperson on T issues.

More to the point, I have lobbied for TG rights on the Federal level 3 times, in Washington, and on State and municipal levels more times than I can count, including in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, Trenton, New Jersey, Frankfort, Kentcuky, and Austin, Texas. I have been involved in the effort to gain equal TG rights in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, in Louisville and Lexington, Kentucky, and in Austin, Texas.

In Pennsylvania, I was the spark plug that got it started, but I was not there to see the success in Allentown PA, I'd since moved on to Kentucky. Similarly, I was not there to see the final success in New Jersey, but, I brought action against a former employer, based on existing laws...and had a finding of probable cause issued in my case, which was later cited in a case before the NJ Supreme Court...that ruling was later used to craft a statewide law banning discrimination against TG people.
I tried and failed in 1997, in Louisville, Kentucky...and took a rock over the eye that caused a gash requiring 4 stitches to close, and I still have the scar to this day (some so-called Christian threw it at me as I exited City Hall the night of the vote on the issue.) I then was part of the success that was 1999...in both Louisville, and in Lexington, where we got our rights secured at last. I then moved on to austin, leaving Kentucky a better place than I found it...and managed to be the spark plug that eventually led to TG people in Austin being granted their rights, fully 29 years after GLB folks got theirs!

So I have a lot of experience in fighting for civil rights, and a lot of stories to tell about it...I therefore feel I am, without a doubt, the most qualified to discuss and be spokesperson, of matters in the transgender realm. I was nominated for a Trinity Award last year, and was not selected as one of the three finalists, because, as impressive as my own qualifications were...the three who DID win the awards, were even more qualified than I was. But even having been nominated for the Trinity, and coming that close to getting it...is a big honor to me.

Well, quite frankly...as I am the only T that I know of on this list...
I can count three that I know of :p

Never encountered the idea of using what others say to insult you as something to promote yourself with?

"sick, stupid and wrong" is exactly the attitude we are fighting, by using a line like that we make a mockery out of the message behind it.

Unfortunately, it is all to easy to take it the other way. I am put off when someone uses a derogatory slang term to refer to themselves, even if they do it to negate the meaning of the term... it is hard for me to get past all the negative connotations. I can't imagine that someone who BELIEVES those negative connotations would even TRY to get past them. Lyric stated the case a bit more firmly than I would, but I have to second the thought that calling ourselves names is not the way to go.

I concur! That did occur to me as well, and I have not followed up on it... but the post earlier in the thread indicated that this group was very PRO LGBT issues and encouraged tolerance and acceptance in their region. Do you want to follow this up for us and go check them out? If they are legit, then it might be good to point out the problem with their name to them, as they may not be aware.
I'm not sure I'm the best person to check them out, since I am the one who raised the point, I'm likely to go in with preconcieved biases and notions that may not be fair to them. I suggest another of our group should be assigned this particular liaison job. Someone who can be impartial and go in without bias. That someone isn't me.

Never encountered the idea of using what others say to insult you as something to promote yourself with?

"sick, stupid and wrong" is exactly the attitude we are fighting, by using a line like that we make a mockery out of the message behind it.

I will not be a party to it. I will not be a party to it. how much clearer must I make myself?

Look, I'm a White Sox fan...and in 1983, the Texas Rangers manager Doug Rader accused the Sox of "winning ugly" that is, taking advatage of every fielding gaffe...and every opportunity the opposition provided...scoring runs on as few hits as possible, etc. And Greg Luzinski hit a home run next time against the Rangers, and told Rader's son to ask his dad if they were ugly tonight. Rader then swore he was misunderstood in his comments, but by then, the Sox had made "Winning Ugly" a battlecry. As Luzinski later put it...we might be winning ugly, but the Rangers are sure losing pretty!

So, yes, the concept is not unfamiliar to me. BUT I WILL NOT BE A PARTY TO ANY GROUP THAT SAY GLBT IS STUPID, SICK OR WRONG....NOT EVEN IN JEST!!!

I will not be a party to it. I will not be a party to it. how much clearer must I make myself?
Fine, but it's staying in my sig.

I concur! That did occur to me as well, and I have not followed up on it... but the post earlier in the thread indicated that this group was very PRO LGBT issues and encouraged tolerance and acceptance in their region. Do you want to follow this up for us and go check them out? If they are legit, then it might be good to point out the problem with their name to them, as they may not be aware.

I'm not sure I'm the best person to check them out, since I am the one who raised the point, I'm likely to go in with preconcieved biases and notions that may not be fair to them. I suggest another of our group should be assigned this particular liaison job. Someone who can be impartial and go in without bias. That someone isn't me.

LOL! Fair enough. Anyone interested in checking out the region called "The Exodus" and seeing what they are all about, then getting back to us about them?

Ummm... I realize that suddenly I am taking over the job of assigning jobs to other people... I don't mean to do that, so please forgive me. I guess I am really only trying to keep things moving and see about getting things done, but if anyone objects, let me know and I will back off and somebody else is encouraged to take point here. :rolleyes:

Fine, but it's staying in my sig.

Fine then. Don't let people know I am associated with you, then. And do not associate The GLBT Army with that slogan. You want to use it for your own nation, that is your own business. I will firmly object to any reference like that being used to describe the entire group...even in your sig line.

Fine then. Don't let people know I am associated with you, then.
Fine, but remember we're on the same side, no matter how we express our "same sided-ness"

Fine, but remember we're on the same side, no matter how we express our 'same sided-ness"

Again, fine...as long as you do not associate ME...or the group I belong to...with that slogan...I have no problem with you using it yourself.

But I will firmly object to any reference to the GLBT Army as "stupid, sick, and wrong" even if it is only in your own sig line. My bottom line: DO NOT ASSOCIATE ME WITH THOSE HATEFUL WORDS!!!

b. Offer a listening ear and offer advice based on personal experience to NS members

i have an idea for this,ripped off from another(now deaded) forum.someone(ill do it if the idea get approved)sets up an email account to which people can ask for advice or generally ask anything along the lines of LGBT rights an issues.then all/some of us provide answers/advice to the best of our abilities,to facilitate this ill give out the password to the email account.i suggest some LGBT people give the advice,as experience breeds wisdom.

oh yes and everything emailed will of course be held in the highest of confidence,although now that i tihnk of it we might quote personal experiences told to us for the purposes of debate,but will of course not reveal in any way who sent that story to us.

i have an idea for this,ripped off from another(now deaded) forum.someone(ill do it if the idea get approved)sets up an email account to which people can ask for advice or generally ask anything along the lines of LGBT rights an issues.then all/some of us provide answers/advice to the best of our abilities,to facilitate this ill give out the password to the email account.i suggest some LGBT people give the advice,as experience breeds wisdom.

oh yes and everything emailed will of course be held in the highest of confidence,although now that i tihnk of it we might quote personal experiences told to us for the purposes of debate,but will of course not reveal in any way who sent that story to us.

That is a very interesting idea... it would have to be carefully worded so that anyone sending email would understand that any number of our membership would have access to it...

Just as a thought, how about an advice column, someone sends an email, it gets discussed privately inside our group, then published to the column with all personal specifics removed, but with advice from us?

Again, fine...as long as you do not associate ME...or the group I belong to...with that slogan...I have no problem with you using it yourself.

But I will firmly object to any reference to the GLBT Army as "stupid, sick, and wrong" even if it is only in your own sig line. My bottom line: DO NOT ASSOCIATE ME WITH THOSE HATEFUL WORDS!!!
And the fact that it says "militant" in the fucking topic title doesn't bother you one iota?

Tough, it's staying in my sig. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean I can't use it. And, frankly, I couldn't give two shits if you don't like it.

Frankly, people generally assume that those belonging to a loose-knit group like the LGBT 'community' are not all living their lives according to one belief, one world-view, one anything...an incredible range of diversity is included in that LGBT tag, as is include here in this 'Army'. No one is going to assume that just because one member does or says something that all other members also do and say (and believe) those things. And if people DO make that assumption...tough. It's not a valid assumption to make.

I'd like to see the LGBT Army develop some 'fact sheets' that linked to in our sigs so that people who really have no clue about certain issues (foremost in mind is transgender issues) can read up a bit on it, rather than work from a base of total ignorance. It won't necessarily change minds...but it would be a useful resource.

Frankly, people generally assume that those belonging to a loose-knit group like the LGBT 'community' are not all living their lives according to one belief, one world-view, one anything...an incredible range of diversity is included in that LGBT tag, as is include here in this 'Army'. No one is going to assume that just because one member does or says something that all other members also do and say (and believe) those things. And if people DO make that assumption...tough. It's not a valid assumption to make.
Quoted because it's true. And something some people should remember.

And the fact that it says "militant" in the fucking topic title doesn't bother you one iota?

Tough, it's staying in my sig. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean I can't use it. And, frankly, I couldn't give two shits if you don't like it.

Factionalism; within less than a week. Brilliant.

(People's front of Judea - Splitters!).

Factionalism; within less than a week. Brilliant.

(People's front of Judea - Splitters!).
Factionalism began to appear in less than a day.

Alright my friends, lets try to be a bit less combative with each other.

Sins right about people having different points of view and the larger our group grows the greater the diversity in points of view our group shall have.

If we can't show acceptance to each others differences, how can we credibly foster understanding within a larger arena?

It Is Just Me - I'm glad you are coordinating. I am relly busy at work and runnign around town to our clients daily lately(and therefore really lazy once I get home). Listing job assignments is a marvelous idea.

I like the idea about an advice column with personal information removed.

I am the only T that I know of on this list...Then you don't know ol' Dobbsy too well then... surprise, surprise...! I just don't talk about it much, unless it's really pertinent to the matter-at-hand.

I must say, this day job of mine is putting a real crimp in my posting behaviour around here...

Then you don't know ol' Dobbsy too well then... surprise, surprise...! I just don't talk about it much, unless it's really pertinent to the matter-at-hand.
You aren't on the list :p

You aren't on the list :p
I totally missed your point so I'm re-writing this post... so, you didn't know? Hmm. I thought I might've mentioned it in a thread or two that you contributed to.

Ah. Go figure.

That is a very interesting idea... it would have to be carefully worded so that anyone sending email would understand that any number of our membership would have access to it...

Just as a thought, how about an advice column, someone sends an email, it gets discussed privately inside our group, then published to the column with all personal specifics removed, but with advice from us?

Yeah...sorta like a Dear Abby for the TLGB??

And the fact that it says "militant" in the fucking topic title doesn't bother you one iota?

Tough, it's staying in my sig. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean I can't use it. And, frankly, I couldn't give two shits if you don't like it.

No, militant does not bother me...I AM militant.
and I am NOT stupid, sick or wrong. Screw this...you are not a part of my group, Nadkor. I want nothing to do with you, as long as you are attaching the name of our group to that slaogan, in your signature line, you simply do not exist.
you'll not drive me out of this group, but YOU don't exist.

Frankly, people generally assume that those belonging to a loose-knit group like the LGBT 'community' are not all living their lives according to one belief, one world-view, one anything...an incredible range of diversity is included in that LGBT tag, as is include here in this 'Army'. No one is going to assume that just because one member does or says something that all other members also do and say (and believe) those things. And if people DO make that assumption...tough. It's not a valid assumption to make.

True...BUT HE HAS NO FUCKING RIGHT TO ATTACH THE GROUP'S NAME TO THAT FUCKING SLOGAN, AND THEN USE IT IN HIS SIGNATURE LINE!!

i WILL NOT TOLERATE IT, AND UNTIL HE CHANGES IT, HE IS NON-EXISTENT AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED! I WILL NOT...I REPEAT NOT HAVE "STUPID, SICK AND WRONG" ATTACHED TO ME...OR TO ANY GROUP TO WHICH I BELONG.

Therefore, as far as I am concerned, Nadkor does not exist, is not a member of the same group I am, and I will have no further contact with him...and in fact, I am ready to place him on the ignore list.

I'd like to see the LGBT Army develop some 'fact sheets' that linked to in our sigs so that people who really have no clue about certain issues (foremost in mind is transgender issues) can read up a bit on it, rather than work from a base of total ignorance. It won't necessarily change minds...but it would be a useful resource.

"stupid, sick and wrong" sure as SHIT isn't going to change anyone's minds...in fact, it will likely RE-INFORCE the bigotries and prejudices people hold. And I'll have no part of it.

Quoted because it's true. And something some people should remember.

You are still attaching THE GROUP'S NAME to something the group did NOT sanction, and did not approve. And I will not tolerate it.

I'm not letting this go. Either it comes out of your signature or you don't exist.

Factionalism; within less than a week. Brilliant.

(People's front of Judea - Splitters!).

Damn right! I am NOT letting him attach the group's name to a slogan like that. He does not represent ME. He does not officially speak for our group. He has no right attaching our name to the slogan. NONE. and I will fight this tooth and nail. So help me I will.

I must say, this day job of mine is putting a real crimp in my posting behaviour around here...

Wish I could FIND a day job. Where do you work that there aren't a bunch of discriminating assholes that refuse to hire transsexuals?

Hot damn, that's like stepping in front of an open blast furnace door. My ears are ringing. My fingers are bleeding. The room is swaying slightly.

Lyric, here's your absolute best option: turn the sigs off. They're never worth seeing more than once anyway. I forget people even have them, except insofar as people sometimes make reference to them or their contents. Chances are, Nadkor will eventually update or change his sig.

I hate seeing too many slugfests happening.

Wish I could FIND a day job. Where do you work that there aren't a bunch of discriminating assholes that refuse to hire transsexuals?
Photo retoucher. At an ad firm specializing in print media. It's a temp gig I picked up from an agency.

Hot damn, that's like stepping in front of an open blast furnace door. My ears are ringing. My fingers are bleeding. The room is swaying slightly.

Lyric, here's your absolute best option: turn the sigs off. They're never worth seeing more than once anyway. I forget people even have them, except insofar as people sometimes make reference to them or their contents. Chances are, Nadkor will eventually update or change his sig.

I hate seeing too many slugfests happening.

No, I am not turning sigs off. I'm turning NADKOR off.

Photo retoucher. At an ad firm specializing in print media. It's a temp gig I picked up from an agency.

Agencies around here don't seem to want to put me out on any jobs. They keep claiming they don't have any, and I call bullshit. They just don't want to put a "freak" like me out on a job, and they won't cop to that, so they claim to not have any work available.

And note...I use the word "freak" in the sense that I don't accept that label, but it IS how they see me...just because of who and what I am.

Incidentally, Dobbsy...I have given more than enough clues. If you are at all well-connected within the TG community, you probably have a good idea as to exactly who I am.

My name is practically synonymous with "loose cannon" and "militant" within the community. I'm well known for it. I'm also well known for my bulldog tenacity to clamp into something and absolutely refuse to let it go.

And I'm the only person I can think of who has fought for TG inclusion...and succeeding in gaining same...in FIVE different far-flung places...no one else that I know of can say that they have played a critical role in gaining TG rights in New Jersey (statewide) Allentown, PA Louisville and Lexington, KY...and Austin, TX.

I bet if you showed some of these posts to some of the other pre-eminent folks in the TG movement...the politically-connected ones...they would probably have no trouble identifying me by name.

Where are you living, Lyric? I know I've heard you say in the past you've thought of emigrating, and I had a website I thought might help out in jobsearch - I just didn't know what you did for a living.

http://www.mediajobsearchcanada.com/

Anyway, I am living/working in downtown Toronto, things are pretty good between me and this ad firm, longshot - maybe they'll take me on in more than a temp capacity. This working from week-to-week business (with sometimes months in-between engagements) gets to be very draining after a while.

Count me in. I'm th egayest straight guy you'll ever meet. I think I qualify as gay because I've frenched more guys then most gay guys.

Where are you living, Lyric? I know I've heard you say in the past you've thought of emigrating, and I had a website I thought might help out in jobsearch - I just didn't know what you did for a living.

http://www.mediajobsearchcanada.com/

Anyway, I am living/working in downtown Toronto, things are pretty good between me and this ad firm, longshot - maybe they'll take me on in more than a temp capacity. This working from week-to-week business (with sometimes months in-between engagements) gets to be very draining after a while.
Currently, I'm living in Northeastern Pennsylvania. My work experience is all in clerical/data entry/admin support. Basically, a pencil-pusher.

...so, no larger urban centre in the immediate area? My knowledge of US geography is sketchy at best, but I can't think of any significant burgs in NE Pennsylvania...

I'm from the city, I feel a sense of security living here. I don't know how well I'd adapt to a rural/suburban lifestyle - or what opportunities I might find that would take me there. From what you were saying, I take it you've moved around a bit. The reason I brought up the website was I thought maybe if you tried some searches north of the border, that could kick-start your idea to emigrate. Finding a job up here would be the first step toward residency - and who knows? Maybe someday citizenship.

We need more pencil-pushers up here. Trust me. Hell, you might even be able to pencil-push for the Canadian government, who knows (not me, that's fer damn sure)?

...so, no larger urban centre in the immediate area? My knowledge of US geography is sketchy at best, but I can't think of any significant burgs in NE Pennsylvania...

I'm from the city, I feel a sense of security living here. I don't know how well I'd adapt to a rural/suburban lifestyle - or what opportunities I might find that would take me there. From what you were saying, I take it you've moved around a bit. The reason I brought up the website was I thought maybe if you tried some searches north of the border, that could kick-start your idea to emigrate. Finding a job up here would be the first step toward residency - and who knows? Maybe someday citizenship.

We need more pencil-pushers up here. Trust me. Hell, you might even be able to pencil-push for the Canadian government, who knows (not me, that's fer damn sure)?

I may well do that someday, but I couldn't do it until my mom is gone.

I totally missed your point so I'm re-writing this post... so, you didn't know? Hmm. I thought I might've mentioned it in a thread or two that you contributed to.

Ah. Go figure.
No...I did know. What I mean is the list on the first page. Lyric said she thought she was the only T on the first page (which is wrong), and then you said what about you? But you aren't on the list.

True...BUT HE HAS NO FUCKING RIGHT TO ATTACH THE GROUP'S NAME TO THAT FUCKING SLOGAN, AND THEN USE IT IN HIS SIGNATURE LINE!!

i WILL NOT TOLERATE IT, AND UNTIL HE CHANGES IT, HE IS NON-EXISTENT AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED! I WILL NOT...I REPEAT NOT HAVE "STUPID, SICK AND WRONG" ATTACHED TO ME...OR TO ANY GROUP TO WHICH I BELONG.

Therefore, as far as I am concerned, Nadkor does not exist, is not a member of the same group I am, and I will have no further contact with him...and in fact, I am ready to place him on the ignore list.
Well, if you actually paid any attention to my sig, you would see the word "female" (or maybe you're just throwing out veiled insults, I don't know). So, obviously my sig can't bother you that much.

Oh well.

Fine, place me on your ignore list. I couldn't give a fuck.

I may well do that someday, but I couldn't do it until my mom is gone.
Are you taking care of her? I'm assuming you're employing a euphemism here - 'gone' meaning 'no longer living'? It's difficult at times, when we have to balance between our own lives and those of our aging parents.

My own have both passed away, unfortunately. Well, take care, Lyric - and rather than playing guessing-games, if you'd like to reveal your identity to me, just send me a TG (ha-ha). I'm good at holding confidences, I won't go blabbing your celebrity to anybody.

i'm a lesbian!

No...I did know. What I mean is the list on the first page. Lyric said she thought she was the only T on the first page (which is wrong), and then you said what about you? But you aren't on the list.
Ahh - so I was right the first time around. That's what I get for being over-analytical. Well, I'm sure Su will amend the list at some point (hint, hint Su), and then I guess it'll be "official".

And now, back to the grindstone, folks. I just found out they'll need me again next week - yay for me and my teetering bankbook. Boo for my helping contribute to the society that is based entirely on the proposition of everybody selling useless consumer crapola to each other. *BTW, wicker will be the hot property next spring... you heard it here first - !

Add The Blackmoore to your list. (even thought I think that being 'Canadian' and 'militant' is a trifle laughable.)

i'm a lesbian!

Kind of hard for a MAN to be a lesbian. :rolleyes:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Not to ruffle any feathers here, but I tend to agree with Lyric on the issue of the "groups" name being used without it being a united or majority opinion. I do believe that while we know what context Nadkor is trying to use it in, it will be lost on others who do not know in what context he is trying to use it in. The bottom line is if this group can't be united as one, how does this group expect anyone else to take it seriously. I mean I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do, I'm just saying I think adding "stupid, sick and wrong" to your sig is sort of defeating the purpose. Maybe it should be put to a vote by members of the group or something? I personally would be against it being used. But that's just my opinion.

Maybe it should be put to a vote by members of the group or something? I personally would be against it being used. But that's just my opinion.
What are you going to do, kick me out or something?

Hooray for inclusiveness :rolleyes:

That is a very interesting idea... it would have to be carefully worded so that anyone sending email would understand that any number of our membership would have access to it...

Just as a thought, how about an advice column, someone sends an email, it gets discussed privately inside our group, then published to the column with all personal specifics removed, but with advice from us?

sounds like a good idea.but where could we discuss it privately?

What are you going to do, kick me out or something?

Hooray for inclusiveness :rolleyes:

I'm in no position to do so. I just agree that you should not use it. I do understand the point you're trying to make, however I believe most won't.

I'm in no position to do so. I just agree that you should not use it. I do understand the point you're trying to make, however I believe most won't.
It is not my problem if others don't understand it.

I can easily understand what Lyric and Steph are saying. It makes good sense. I also didn't see Steph saying anything to the effect of kicking anyone out of the group. Can't we handle our discussions/disagreements civilly and quit taking them so personally? Steph's post is a great example of how to explain a position on something logically and civilly. Arguments like that are so much mroe palatable and when I read them I give them much more consideration, and I am betting that most people are the same way.

That being said, I don't think we can control what people put in their signatures and I don't think we should try. If somebody takes one persons deviant sense of humor the wrong way and thinks that it is the position of the entire group, thereby refusing to listen to anything any of us have to say then that is their perogative and they obviously aren't worth continuing the debate with.

This is why a group representative makes a lot of sense.... someone who takes the collective opinion of the majority of the group and presents it as so. We can have a disclaimer that what individual members say are not necessarily the opinion of our entire organization.

Since everyone else is giving their opinion, I'm going to assume it's open season on opinions, and babble on incoherently with my own particular view.

What is the harm with Nadkor's "Stupid, sick and wrong" tag in her signature? Let's think about possible reactions to this:

a) "OMG!!! THE LGBT ARMY is divided! Some people who belong to it don't think what some other people who belong to it do! I guess they are being inclusive of other viewpoints and are automatically ineffectual!"

b) "Hehehehe, that's funny Nadkor! You're mocking the reaction that some people are going to have to the LGBT Army. Screw them!"

c) "Hey, I'm gay and want to join the LGBT Army, but apparently the LGBT Army actually hates LGBT people because this one poster Nadkor says they are 'stupid sick and wrong'. Man. No point in looking deeper into it I guess."

d) "Hey Nadkor, I think LGBT people are stupid, sick and wrong too...let's make fun of them!" "Hey, guess what, I'm actually the last letter of that, so go screw yourself."

I'm sorry, but if this group doesn't have room for different viewpoints, different perspectives, and different approaches, then you might as well just admit it's going to turn into a partisan group that leaves out anyone who doesn't follow the (still to be determined) party line. How fucking useful is that? About as useful as any damn partisan political group. Useful enough to never get past the bitching stage and into some sort of action.

1. We don't have to like one another.
2. We don't have to agree with one another.
3. We do need to respect that we're all coming at this from different places, and unity should never come at the expense of the freedom of thought, belief or speech.

Who'd-a thought it'd be so tough getting this group up off the ground? This is like herding cats...

sounds like a good idea.but where could we discuss it privately?

Off site forum that is password protected so only members can get in? If our Dear Abby had an email address, he or she could post an email to the forum, making sure that all identification had been removed (like the email address and changing any names) so that it would be anonymous for all of us except Dear Abby, we could all throw our two cents in, then Dear Abby (we need a better name than that) could use our ideas to write a response, then that could be posted in the advice column. Are you interested in being our advice columnist?

Who'd-a thought it'd be so tough getting this group up off the ground? This is like herding cats...

We need a leader!

We need a leader!

lets have an election.who wants to be leader?

What are you going to do, kick me out or something?

Hooray for inclusiveness :rolleyes:

I'm not part of this group, but explain how it is stupid, sick or wrong? Please do. Because it comes into conflict with your religion? Or what? Inclusiveness? They don't have to include bigots. But since I'm not a member, I think someone else should report Nadkor to the moderators. It is quite inflammatory to gay people in this forum.

I'm gay, I'm not inflamed, in fact don't care. the least.

What are you going to do, kick me out or something?

Hooray for inclusiveness :rolleyes:
Don't you start that bullshit! You are out of line and you know it! YOU HAVE NO FUCKING RIGHT TO TAKE AND USE THE GROUP NAME IN FRONT OF A SLOGAN MANY OF US FIND OBJECTIONABLE!!

You want to make it "Nadkor: stupid, sick, and wrong" then I can't say shit about that. But as long as you are using the ENTIRE GROUP'S NAME in that place, then you are de-facto, claiming that slogan also applies to ME and I will not have it. Now I mean it, you ficking get rid of the slogan. You are WAY OUT OF LINE!!

I am not letting it go until that sig line is changed.

It is not my problem if others don't understand it.

IT'S MY FUCKING PROBLEM IF SOMEONE ASSOCIATES ME WITH THAT SICK BULLSHIT!! NOW I WILL NOT TOLERATE IT. END OF STORY. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER, TO ATTACH AN OBJECTIONABLE SLOGAN TO THE ENTIRE GROUP NAME, AND THUS HAVE ALL OF US PEGGED WITH THAT SLOGAN!! YOU HAVE NO FUCKING RIGHT, AND I WILL FIGHT IT UNTIL MY DYING DAY IF I HAVE TO!!

I can easily understand what Lyric and Steph are saying. It makes good sense. I also didn't see Steph saying anything to the effect of kicking anyone out of the group. Can't we handle our discussions/disagreements civilly and quit taking them so personally? Steph's post is a great example of how to explain a position on something logically and civilly. Arguments like that are so much mroe palatable and when I read them I give them much more consideration, and I am betting that most people are the same way.

That being said, I don't think we can control what people put in their signatures and I don't think we should try. If somebody takes one persons deviant sense of humor the wrong way and thinks that it is the position of the entire group, thereby refusing to listen to anything any of us have to say then that is their perogative and they obviously aren't worth continuing the debate with.

This is why a group representative makes a lot of sense.... someone who takes the collective opinion of the majority of the group and presents it as so. We can have a disclaimer that what individual members say are not necessarily the opinion of our entire organization.

NOT ACCEPTABLE!!! Nadkor is using the entire group's name in front of that slogan, which is implying that the entire group is united behind that, and I will have no part of it!! Now I mean it, this is making me EXTREMELY ANGRY!! I will NOT have that slogan attached to this group!!

Since everyone else is giving their opinion, I'm going to assume it's open season on opinions, and babble on incoherently with my own particular view.

What is the harm with Nadkor's "Stupid, sick and wrong" tag in her signature? Let's think about possible reactions to this:

a) "OMG!!! THE LGBT ARMY is divided! Some people who belong to it don't think what some other people who belong to it do! I guess they are being inclusive of other viewpoints and are automatically ineffectual!"

b) "Hehehehe, that's funny Nadkor! You're mocking the reaction that some people are going to have to the LGBT Army. Screw them!"

c) "Hey, I'm gay and want to join the LGBT Army, but apparently the LGBT Army actually hates LGBT people because this one poster Nadkor says they are 'stupid sick and wrong'. Man. No point in looking deeper into it I guess."

d) "Hey Nadkor, I think LGBT people are stupid, sick and wrong too...let's make fun of them!" "Hey, guess what, I'm actually the last letter of that, so go screw yourself."

I'm sorry, but if this group doesn't have room for different viewpoints, different perspectives, and different approaches, then you might as well just admit it's going to turn into a partisan group that leaves out anyone who doesn't follow the (still to be determined) party line. How fucking useful is that? About as useful as any damn partisan political group. Useful enough to never get past the bitching stage and into some sort of action.

1. We don't have to like one another.
2. We don't have to agree with one another.
3. We do need to respect that we're all coming at this from different places, and unity should never come at the expense of the freedom of thought, belief or speech.

I WILL SAY IT AGAIN...NADKOR HAS NO FUCKING RIGHT TO USE THE ENTIRE GROUP'S NAME ON THAT SLOGAN...WHICH, IN EFFECT, THEN INCLUDES ME I WILL NOT HAVE ANY PART OF BEING LABELLED "STUPID SICK AND WRONG" I WILL NOT HAVE IT!!

I'm not part of this group, but explain how it is stupid, sick or wrong? Please do. Because it comes into conflict with your religion? Or what? Inclusiveness? They don't have to include bigots. But since I'm not a member, I think someone else should report Nadkor to the moderators. It is quite inflammatory to gay people in this forum.

THANK YOU!! I don't believe it, Mesa and I agree on something!!

This is VERY INFLAMMATORY to me...to have my name attached to a group that is being labelled by one of it's own mebers as "stupid, sick, and wrong." I don't CARE if the point is to make fun of the idiot who said it...I DO NOT WANT THAT SLOGAN ATTACHED TO THIS GROUP'S NAME, AS LONG AS I AM PART OF THIS GROUP, BECUSE THEN IT IMPLIES THAT I AM "STUPID, SICK, AND WRONG." AND I WILL NOT HAVE ANY PART OF IT!! NOW, DAMMIT, IT IS NOT RIGHT OF SOMEONE TO ATTACH AN OBJECTIONABLE SLOGAN TO THE ENTIRE GROUP'S NAME!!!

THANK YOU!! I don't believe it, Mesa and I agree on something!!

This is VERY INFLAMMATORY to me...to have my name attached to a group that is being labelled by one of it's own mebers as "stupid, sick, and wrong." I don't CARE if the point is to make fun of the idiot who said it...I DO NOT WANT THAT SLOGAN ATTACHED TO THIS GROUP'S NAME, AS LONG AS I AM PART OF THIS GROUP, BECUSE THEN IT IMPLIES THAT I AM "STUPID, SICK, AND WRONG." AND I WILL NOT HAVE ANY PART OF IT!! NOW, DAMMIT, IT IS NOT RIGHT OF SOMEONE TO ATTACH AN OBJECTIONABLE SLOGAN TO THE ENTIRE GROUP'S NAME!!!

I understand your anger. The LGBT part effects me and she is inferring that LGBT people are sick, stupid, and wrong.

Let just get down to the reality.. did you know gay males make more money on average, and are at greater chance to get a higher education percentage wise then straight men? Not so stupid we are... in fact I think gay guys I know are smarter, and more open then straight guys.

I understand your anger. The LGBT part effects me and she is inferring that LGBT people are sick, stupid, and wrong.

Let just get down to the reality.. did you know gay males make more money on average, and are at greater chance to get a higher education percentage wise then straight men? Not so stupid we are... in fact I think gay guys I know are smarter, and more open then straight guys.

Mesa, what Nadkor is doing is...she is taking a phrase that a troll posted in here...and is using it to mock the troll. She is doing the same thing that blacks try to do when they call each other the n-word...or when gay guys call each other the f-word. The point is, however, I don't want to be associated with it. I know what Nadkor is REALLY trying to do...but outsiders won't...and they will then get the wrong idea from the slogan...and she has attached THE ENTIRE GROUP NAME to the slogan, and I feel it is wrong.

I understand what Nadkor is doing, but I feel she is WAY OUT OF LINE attaching the entire group's name to it.

If she wants to put in her sig line, "Nadkor: stupid, sick, and wrong" then I have nothing to say about it. but as long as she is attaching THE ENTIRE GROUP'S NAME to that slogan...then the entire group has something to say about it, because we are thus being labelled that way. And outsiders are not going to understand it. And they are going to get the wrong idea from it.

I have never been in favor of balck guys calling each other the n-word, but, being white, I've nothing to say about it. I cringe when I hear gay guys calling each other the f-word, but, since I'm not gay, I have nothing to say about it. BUT I DAMN WELL DO HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT SOMEONE ATTACHING A LABEL TO ME WITHOUT MY PERMISSION...BY ATTACHING THAT LABEL TO A GROUP TO WHICH I BELONG...AND WITHOUT THE GROUP'S CONSENT TO SAME.

I can easily understand what Lyric and Steph are saying. It makes good sense. I also didn't see Steph saying anything to the effect of kicking anyone out of the group. Can't we handle our discussions/disagreements civilly and quit taking them so personally? Steph's post is a great example of how to explain a position on something logically and civilly. Arguments like that are so much mroe palatable and when I read them I give them much more consideration, and I am betting that most people are the same way.

That being said, I don't think we can control what people put in their signatures and I don't think we should try. If somebody takes one persons deviant sense of humor the wrong way and thinks that it is the position of the entire group, thereby refusing to listen to anything any of us have to say then that is their perogative and they obviously aren't worth continuing the debate with.

This is why a group representative makes a lot of sense.... someone who takes the collective opinion of the majority of the group and presents it as so. We can have a disclaimer that what individual members say are not necessarily the opinion of our entire organization.

This (see bolded) is where you and I disagree. See, she is attaching THE ENTIRE GROUP'S NAME to that slogan. And THAT is what I am objecting to. she is attaching that slogan TO ME...AND WITHOUT MY CONSENT!! She can put anything she wants in her sig line, until she is assigning labels to other people...who do not consent to have the label attached to them.

Former Supreme court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." Nadkor may swing her fist all she wants. But, that slogan is, in effect, punching me in the nose. she has overstepped. And I will not drop this. I will not have such a label attached to ME.

Nadkor can take the troll's words and wear them as a personal badge of honor all she wants. She has NO RIGHT to force ME to do that. and by attaching the entire group's name to it, that is precisely what she is trying to do. I do not consider the troll's words a badge of honor to be worn with pride. I consider it sick, hateful, twisted words, and I will not allow them to be pinned to me. The attitude of the troll is the very thing we are fighting. I'll not take the troll's words and use them as a badge of honor. The troll is a sick motherfucker, and I will not have those words enshrined as a badge of honor that the entire group is forced to wear. I DO NOT WANT IT ATTACHED TO MY NAME. END OF STORY.

And I am laying down the law. There will be discord in this group until Nadkor backs down on this. Because, as far as I am concerned, Nadkor does not belong to this group until she respects this entire group...and the right of this group to not have labels attached to it that other group members find offensive.

She will be placed on my ignore list, and I will go out of my way to point out Nadkor does not speak for the LGBT Army, and that she does not speak for ME.

I will create discord over this until Nadkor backs down.

she has no right to force the rest of us to wear as a badge of honor something that some of us find offensive...just because SHE wants to wear it as a badge of honor.

Let her wear it as a badge of honor HERSELF if she wants. But she cannot make me wear it.

Like I said...let her change it to "Nadkor: stupid, sick, and wrong" and I will drop it. But as long as she is using the whole group's name, I have a say in it, and I object to it in the most strenuous terms possible.

There.
Now, since we cannot control what others put in their signatures, nor should we try...I think my new signature makes my point.

When Nadkor removes the name of our group from the offensive slogan "stupid sick and wrong" I will revert to my old signature.

I may just be an outsider peering in here, and I'm no homophobe or such, but the idea of a "militant gay agenda" is frankly on similar order to the Westboro Baptists and al-Qaeda. Namely absolutely absurd. If you want an easy way to trigger backlash, you're aiming right for it. Rather than promoting the idea of legal equality for all, you'd actually take up arms against ideologies that are not favorable to homosexuality, most of which advocate nothing more than to not practice it. You're trying to be everything Rush Limbaugh says you are. Which is probably a good hint that you should shy away from it ;) .

I may just be an outsider peering in here, and I'm no homophobe or such, but the idea of a "militant gay agenda" is frankly on similar order to the Westboro Baptists and al-Qaeda. Namely absolutely absurd. If you want an easy way to trigger backlash, you're aiming right for it. Rather than promoting the idea of legal equality for all, you'd actually take up arms against ideologies that are not favorable to homosexuality, most of which advocate nothing more than to not practice it. You're trying to be everything Rush Limbaugh says you are. Which is probably a good hint that you should shy away from it ;) .
:rolleyes: Some people... If you read the first page, you would notice that the title is a joke!

Well, do you expect me to read beyond the first two posts?

Thanks for pointing that out ;) .

I've only skimmed through parts of this thread, but I just wanted to offer a big welcome from the Region of Gay. Although we're a mixed region filled with pacifist regions as well as militant ones, we definitely support other LBGT friendly regions and the advancement of the gay agenda! (Mine looks something like this: "12pm, pedicure; 2pm, Outlet Mall shopping; 4pm, overthrow the patriarchy")

For any regions looking for some non-militant place to reside, the Region of Gay is happy to see you. Any other nations looking to create a treaty or send some ambassadors (or maybe just some chocolate), feel free to give us a yell!

~Merric
Secretary for the Region of Gay

She will be placed on my ignore list,
Were you not going to do that already?

I don't want any part of this anymore. I am ashamed that a link in my signature leads to a page with people fighting over futile matters as if their lives depended on it, instead of trying to construct something, what I believe was the original plan. Can none of you look beyond this immature bickering over a signature and see that the benefit of the group as it was intended, is that we could actually work together to make a difference? Seriously, this brings back memories of when I was twelve years old and a couple of friends and I were trying to organise a school choir. Everything went well until we needed a logo. We got into a big fight over the colour or something, and the choir ended there.
The lesson I learned from then is to not try and organise something with people who seem unwilling to do so. And that is exactly what you seem: unwilling. If you (and I mean both (if not more) of the people involved in the sig-war) really thought this was a great idea and were truely enthousiastic about our goals, then you wouldn't be bashing each other over such futile matters. You'd be making plans instead and thinking along about how to reach our goals.

I regretfully renounce my endorsement of this group and wish to no further be associated with you.

I don't want any part of this anymore. I am ashamed that a link in my signature leads to a page with people fighting over futile matters as if their lives depended on it, instead of trying to construct something, what I believe was the original plan. Can none of you look beyond this immature bickering over a signature and see that the benefit of the group as it was intended, is that we could actually work together to make a difference? Seriously, this brings back memories of when I was twelve years old and a couple of friends and I were trying to organise a school choir. Everything went well until we needed a logo. We got into a big fight over the colour or something, and the choir ended there.
The lesson I learned from then is to not try and organise something with people who seem unwilling to do so. And that is exactly what you seem: unwilling. If you (and I mean both (if not more) of the people involved in the sig-war) really thought this was a great idea and were truely enthousiastic about our goals, then you wouldn't be bashing each other over such futile matters. You'd be making plans instead and thinking along about how to reach our goals.

I regretfully renounce my endorsement of this group and wish to no further be associated with you.


I'm sorry to hear you're leaving,but you do appear to have very good reasons.this is such a small matter,three words,15 letters are tearing this group apart at the seems.its not worth it,we should move on and come back to this at a later time when we have a more organized group with some description of leadership to deal with it.

To all those considering joining The LGBT Army,
First you should know that this group is very inclusive,anyone can join LGBT or otherwise.
Second,please do not allow the arguement between Lyric and Nadkor(others too) to turn you away.In fact please let it be a factor that spurs you to join,this groups need some form of leadership to solve relatively petty issues such as this so we can tackle bigger ones.Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
Third,if you do wish to join feel free to move your nation,or a puppet,to the Island Of The Moon,our headquaters for want of a better term.The password is lgbt.
Thank you and welcome,
Ifreann

Folks, everyone's made their positions clear. Now how about trying to make the ends meet the middle? Surely all of us brilliant people can come up with something that will satisfy Nadkor without offending Lyric. Surely two people, both of good intent and with a level of energy that I, for one, envy, can find some way to respect each other?

I'll put up a straw man. How would it be if the signature in question read:

Lezzies, Gays, Bis, Trannies -- Proudly (or Defiantly?) "stupid, sick and wrong".

Followed by

Militant member of the LGBT Army.

Perhaps we need a separate thread in which people can argue it out word by word? ('Lezzies', for example -- patronising, fond or just the Australian habit of abbreviating everything?)

This problem's not insuperable. Let's deal with it and move on.

Well, we're not factions yet. At this stage, it's two valuable members expressing their different views. I'd like to see both stay with us because that level of involvement is not something to be lightly discarded.

Folks, everyone's made their positions clear. Now how about trying to make the ends meet the middle? Surely all of us brilliant people can come up with something that will satisfy Nadkor without offending Lyric. Surely two people, both of good intent and with a level of energy that I, for one, envy, can find some way to respect each other?

I'll put up a straw man. How would it be if the signature in question read:

Lezzies, Gays, Bis, Trannies -- Proudly (or Defiantly?) "stupid, sick and wrong".

Followed by

Militant member of the LGBT Army.

Perhaps we need a separate thread in which people can argue it out word by word? ('Lezzies', for example -- patronising, fond or just the Australian habit of abbreviating everything?)

This problem's not insuperable. Let's deal with it and move on.


I'M not attaching the slogan "stupid, sick and wrong" to anything that represents ME.
If Nadokr wants to chage her sig to the one suggested above, I can't say anything about it, because she is then not attaching the name of the group I belong to to that slogan...nor is she attaching me to it. And that phrase will NOT be appearing in my sig line.
however, I've no trouble attaching "Militant member of the LGBT Army" to mine.
"Militant" doesn't offend me, because militant is exactly what I am! As many of you have quite obviously seen.

My objection is, has been, and will remain...Nadkor's attaching that slogan to the entire group name. I have said before, if she wants to use it in her own sig line, WITHOUT attaching that specific slogan to the LGBT Army...then there is nothing I can say about it.

But that is my stand. My signature remains as is, until Nadkor quits using the entire group's name just before that slogan...as if it applies to all of us, or that we agree with it...because I STRENUOUSLY disagree with it, and won't have my name attached to it.

Once she changes hers, I change mine. I didn't start the fire.

If I have to, I will do the NS equivalent of taking out a full-page ad in the NY Times to discredit the notion that Nadkor speaks for all...or any of us, with that goddamned slogan.
I am prepared to fight this to the very bitter end. I will not have such a slogan attached to me, or to any group I am a member of. And I will, in the meantime, continue to make it perfectly clear that Nadkor does not represent the LGBT Army as a whole, nor does she speak for it as a whole...and she sure as HELL does not speak for ME.

Her sig line, as it is now, leads one to believe she speaks for all of us. And she is, in effect, trying to force all of us into wearing a troll's words as a badge of honor. I refuse to do that. I will NOT give ammuntion to our enemies, and I feel that acquiescing to that sig line would be giving ammo to our enemies.

They bash us enough already, without us doing it to ourselves. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna participate in doing that. I'm not going to help the asswipes bash us. And I am NOT going to have that slogan, in any way shape or form, attached to ME. Everyone will know that I VEHEMENTLY reject that slogan.

Again, Nadkor can put whatever she wants in her sig line, if it does not lead one to believe she is speaking for our entire group...and if she is not using our group name next to a slogan I find HIGHLY OFFENSIVE.

The battle will continue until Nadkor backs down.

We need a leader!
That's the LAST thing we need. Something more in the vein of a group of equals who focus on different tasks would be better. But please, no damn leader...

I'm not part of this group, but explain how it is stupid, sick or wrong? Please do. Because it comes into conflict with your religion? Or what? Inclusiveness? They don't have to include bigots. But since I'm not a member, I think someone else should report Nadkor to the moderators. It is quite inflammatory to gay people in this forum.
:rolleyes:

I WILL SAY IT AGAIN...NADKOR HAS NO FUCKING RIGHT TO USE THE ENTIRE GROUP'S NAME ON THAT SLOGAN...WHICH, IN EFFECT, THEN INCLUDES ME I WILL NOT HAVE ANY PART OF BEING LABELLED "STUPID SICK AND WRONG" I WILL NOT HAVE IT!!
There are so many things wrong with your hysterical approach to this, I can hardly begin...

The one who has "NO RIGHT", as you've screamed, is YOU, to tell any member of this group what they can and can not do. You can go ahead and suggest, in foul language and making liberal use of the caps lock key...but you can not enforce. If I want to say, "The LGBT Army, goofy goofy goobers" and you don't like it, tough. If you feel that somehow people all over the world are now going to go...DAMN! Lyric is a goofy goofy goober, then you need to get some perspective.

Go ahead and be offended. You have that right. But this is not YOUR group, and Nadkor does not belong to you. A group involves many...many people, many opinions, many views. The only person you can control is yourself.

BY ATTACHING THAT LABEL TO A GROUP TO WHICH I BELONG...AND WITHOUT THE GROUP'S CONSENT TO SAME.
So you want the consent of the group?

I guess then we'd have to decide who is part of the group.

And then we could hold a vote :rolleyes: .

The question should not be "Can Nadkor have this in her sig" but rather...do members have the right to have anything in their sig (that does not break NS rules) or not?

And I am laying down the law.
You have neither the power, nor the right to do so. I withhold my consent for you to speak as a leader of this group, or to 'lay down the law' on our behalf. Go ahead and threaten, and promise to create discord. If that's how you want to waste your energy, so be it. At least you're admitting that it is YOU creating the discord, and not Nadkor.

There.
Now, since we cannot control what others put in their signatures, nor should we try...I think my new signature makes my point.
It's a shame I can't see anyone's signature...as many of us on NS have disabled them. :eek:

If I have to, I will do the NS equivalent of taking out a full-page ad in the NY Times to discredit the notion that Nadkor speaks for all...or any of us, with that goddamned slogan.
I never claimed I did, if you think I have then you are wrong. Any anybody who thinks I claim to speak for the group is delusional.

I am prepared to fight this to the very bitter end. I will not have such a slogan attached to me, or to any group I am a member of. And I will, in the meantime, continue to make it perfectly clear that Nadkor does not represent the LGBT Army as a whole, nor does she speak for it as a whole...and she sure as HELL does not speak for ME.
Have you looked at it? It's in quotation marks, so I'm quoting what somebody has said about the group, I'm not actually saying it. If you had read it properly you would have noticed that very important difference.

Her sig line, as it is now, leads one to believe she speaks for all of us. And she is, in effect, trying to force all of us into wearing a troll's words as a badge of honor. I refuse to do that. I will NOT give ammuntion to our enemies, and I feel that acquiescing to that sig line would be giving ammo to our enemies.
In what way do I lead people to believe I speak for everyone?

Again, Nadkor can put whatever she wants in her sig line, if it does not lead one to believe she is speaking for our entire group.
That's OK, because it doesn't.

The battle will continue until Nadkor backs down.
You realise that if you hadn't said anything I probably would have got bored with it and removed it after a week or two, but because you've made such an issue out of it, it's staying?


Now, if you want to carry on with your attempts at Stalinist control of thought and expression in this group, then carry on. But remember, you don't speak for the group either.

Like I said...let her change it to "Nadkor: stupid, sick, and wrong"
Well, that would be silly, as it wasn't said about me.

Alright...issue of 'the signature' aside, as others have suggested, it's time to move on to something a bit more cohesive.

This particular feud aside, this group is composed of more than two people. There has been a call for leadership, but I don't really think any of us want to see a miniature model of a representative democracy. It would be nice if we could split into committees, each committee focusing on a particular facet of what the LGBT army would like to accomplish, and have one member from each committee (could even be on a rotating basis) report back to a central committee. If an issue comes up that needs consensus, we could bring the issue to ALL members and discuss it. The goal should be consensus if at all possible.

Thoughts? What would LGBT Army members like to see in terms of some sort of group structure/leadership?

I want to be a spear carrier in this army, but what is all this fighting rubbish about?? What did Nadkor say that was so inflamitory (I don't want to page back through 30 some pages of posts)??

Anyway, this is one Army I will join.

Kinda likeTom Lerher's "Folk Song Army".

What I was suggesting by saying we need a leader was not someone to rule over us, but rather someone to chair discussions. Everything has sort of drifted around, with no one keeping us on topic. Side discussions about sig lines and such have become the main thrust. If we are to get anything done, I think it would be beneficial to have someone banging the gavel and saying "this is the point we are currently discussing... lets put other topics on the list and come back to them once we have settled this one". Someone who could say "the time limit for discussion on this issue is two days, then we will vote, so say what you would like to say now, please" and when appropriate, call the vote.

Anyone could put a topic on the list to be discussed (which could be posted) but it would be helpful to have someone keeping some basic parlimentary order, I think.

You have neither the power, nor the right to do so. I withhold my consent for you to speak as a leader of this group, or to 'lay down the law' on our behalf. Go ahead and threaten, and promise to create discord. If that's how you want to waste your energy, so be it. At least you're admitting that it is YOU creating the discord, and not Nadkor.

Nadkor is creating the discord, by continuiong to attach the entire group's name to an objectionable slogan. This could be stopped by her simply removing the group's name from the slogan.
We need a leader to tell her to back off, she has NO RIGHT to attach the name of the entire group...to a slogan that many of us find objectionable.

If no one else will assume leadership, and tell her to back off, then I will create discord, in reaction to what she has done, until someone is finally FORCED to step up to the plate and tell her to back off. I will do what I must. And if that is to carry this fued far and wide, and make it common NS knowledge, then that is what I will do.

Someone needs to assume leadership, step up to the plate, and tell Nadkor that she cannot attach the entire group's name to an objectionable slogan, without the consent of the entire group. She has no right to try and force me or anyone else into wearing an objectionable slogan as a badge of honor.

And if you are going to side with Nadkor on this, sinhue, then you may join her on my shit list.

Nadkor is creating the discord, by continuiong to attach the entire group's name to an objectionable slogan. This could be stopped by her simply removing the group's name from the slogan.
And yet, were you to stop making an issue of it, discord would dissolve. You are keeping this issue alive. You HAVE brought up a point that does need to be discussed though...to what extent are we going to 'confine' our members? Unfortunately, this issue can not really be resolved in our current format, which brings me to:
We need a leader to tell her to back off, she has NO RIGHT to attach the name of the entire group...to a slogan that many of us find objectionable.
Then please participate in the LGBT Army structure thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=445023)...we need to come up with a workable structure before we can really decide on things like telling a particular member to do this or that. Please keep this particular, specific issue in this thread.

If no one else will assume leadership, and tell her to back off, then I will create discord, in reaction to what she has done, until someone is finally FORCED to step up to the plate and tell her to back off.
Assuming leadership, or telling someone to back off is just not good enough. I think all members need a say in how this organisation is run, and having one single, all-powerful leader is not necessarily the way we'll go. But I digress. That's fodder for the other thread.

And if you are going to side with Nadkor on this, sinhue, then you may join her on my shit list.Making threats is going to have little impact one me. I don't consider you a friend, and I value your opinion only in a general, not personal sense. If you'd like to participate in creating a system of organisation, you're welcome to it. If not, that's okay too. But I'm not going to get hung up on your personal issues. And neither is this group.

Nadkor is creating the discord, by continuiong to attach the entire group's name to an objectionable slogan. This could be stopped by her simply removing the group's name from the slogan.
We need a leader to tell her to back off, she has NO RIGHT to attach the name of the entire group...to a slogan that many of us find objectionable.

If no one else will assume leadership, and tell her to back off, then I will create discord, in reaction to what she has done, until someone is finally FORCED to step up to the plate and tell her to back off. I will do what I must. And if that is to carry this fued far and wide, and make it common NS knowledge, then that is what I will do.

Someone needs to assume leadership, step up to the plate, and tell Nadkor that she cannot attach the entire group's name to an objectionable slogan, without the consent of the entire group. She has no right to try and force me or anyone else into wearing an objectionable slogan as a badge of honor.

And if you are going to side with Nadkor on this, sinhue, then you may join her on my shit list.

YOUR FIGHTING OVER A FREAKING SIGNITURE ON A FORUM BOARD HERE LYRIC. OMFG THIS IS THE MOST INANE THING TO BE ARGUING ABOUT AND YOU START BABBLING ABOUT CREATING DISCORD. WHAT THE HELL IS THIS. WHEN THE IN THE BLOODY HELL DID YOU GET THE RIGHT LET ALONE THE NERVE TO TELL SOMEONE WHAT IS APPROPRIATE IN THEIR SIGNITURE. WHEN DID YOU BECOME A MOD. Lyrice from what I have seen so far you seem to be much more of a stumbling block then an asset for this group. And I for one will not be joining said group because of the attitude you have taken.

I never claimed I did, if you think I have then you are wrong. Any anybody who thinks I claim to speak for the group is delusional.


Have you looked at it? It's in quotation marks, so I'm quoting what somebody has said about the group, I'm not actually saying it. If you had read it properly you would have noticed that very important difference.


In what way do I lead people to believe I speak for everyone?


That's OK, because it doesn't.


You realise that if you hadn't said anything I probably would have got bored with it and removed it after a week or two, but because you've made such an issue out of it, it's staying?


Now, if you want to carry on with your attempts at Stalinist control of thought and expression in this group, then carry on. But remember, you don't speak for the group either.


1. It is implied that you speak for the group, when you place the group's name in front of a slogan like that.

2. Like anyone is going to notice, or give a crap about your little quotation marks? It's objectionable, and it still appears as though that slogan is some sort of official slogan that we all embrace and endorse, and I EMPHATICALLY, AND FOR THE RECORD...do not embrace or endorse that slogan. And I will make sure everyone KNOWS that I don't embrace or endorse it.

3. By attaching the entire group name in front of the slogan, you make it appear as though it is some sort of official slogan for our group. You have no right to hang a label on ME that I find objectionable.

4. It goddamned does too imply you speak for the whole group! And I object strenuously to that. Be damned if I want YOU speaking for us, since you are obviously out to create the wrong image of us in people's minds...by giving more power to the words of a troll.

5. And so is MY fucking signature staying. Goddamn you...you have no right to have the entire group's name attached to that slogan, and you fucking-A well know it! And I will not allow anyone to believe I endorse that fucking slogan. anyone who thinks that slogan should be used as a badge of honor is THEMSELVES, stupid, sick, and wrong.

6. I am not claiming to speak for the group. You don't see ME attaching the entire group's name to any slogans. I am speaking for ME and no one else. I am speaking that you have no right to attach a label I find objectionable to either ME...or to any group theat is representative of me, of which I am a member. YOU are the only one who currently appears to be speaking for the entire group, and you fucking need to back the hell off. You keep "stupid sick and wrong" in your sig line all you want, but damn as HELL need to take The LGBT Army out of your sig line, as it relates to that slogan. Because, by failing to do so, you are leaving the impression that it is an official slogan we all embrace and endorse, and I have already made it quite clear that I do not. That I find it objectionable. Do you live strictly and solely to piss me the fuck off?

YOUR FIGHTING OVER A FREAKING SIGNITURE ON A FORUM BOARD HERE LYRIC. OMFG THIS IS THE MOST INANE THING TO BE ARGUING ABOUT AND YOU START BABBLING ABOUT CREATING DISCORD. WHAT THE HELL IS THIS. WHEN THE IN THE BLOODY HELL DID YOU GET THE RIGHT LET ALONE THE NERVE TO TELL SOMEONE WHAT IS APPROPRIATE IN THEIR SIGNITURE. WHEN DID YOU BECOME A MOD. Lyrice from what I have seen so far you seem to be much more of a stumbling block then an asset for this group. And I for one will not be joining said group because of the attitude you have taken.
Please don't overlook the fact that Lyric is not the group. Lyric is one member of a widely diverse group. We don't all have to agree with Lyric in order to be a member.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyric
Like I said...let her change it to "Nadkor: stupid, sick, and wrong"

Well, that would be silly, as it wasn't said about me.

YOU are the one who seems to want to wear it as a badge of honor! You have no right to make the rest of us wear it as a badge of honor.

You want to wear it as a badge of honor, then you go ahead and do so. But you don't attach the entire group's name to it.

Alright...issue of 'the signature' aside, as others have suggested, it's time to move on to something a bit more cohesive.

This particular feud aside, this group is composed of more than two people. There has been a call for leadership, but I don't really think any of us want to see a miniature model of a representative democracy. It would be nice if we could split into committees, each committee focusing on a particular facet of what the LGBT army would like to accomplish, and have one member from each committee (could even be on a rotating basis) report back to a central committee. If an issue comes up that needs consensus, we could bring the issue to ALL members and discuss it. The goal should be consensus if at all possible.

Thoughts? What would LGBT Army members like to see in terms of some sort of group structure/leadership?

I am not moving on until this issue is resolved!! I will NOT allow this to go unchallenged!

Please don't overlook the fact that Lyric is not the group. Lyric is one member of a widely diverse group. We don't all have to agree with Lyric in order to be a member.
I understand that but the problem is that whenever Lyric seems to argue for a point that even I may agree with I want to take the opposite stance. I have never seen someone so self absorded that they were willing to do something like this on a bloody forum. Its absolutely rediculous.

*post full of profanity*
Lyric, all your heated emotions on this issue aside, I respectfully request that you tone down the level of profanity in your posts.

You don't see ME attaching the entire group's name to any slogans. I am speaking for ME and no one else.
Have you read your signature?

Oh, your "ignore" button not working?

Twice you've said you're going to put me on your ignore list, and you still reply to my posts.

All talk and little action.


You keep saying that I shouldn't have something that most of the group doesn't like, but to be honest, most of the people that have posted about it so far seem to be saying that I can have what I like in my signature.

As for existing to wind you up, as much as you might like to think that you are the most important thing in my life, you barely register. From what I can see, from your innane rantings, you are taking this far more seriously than I am.

What I was suggesting by saying we need a leader was not someone to rule over us, but rather someone to chair discussions. Everything has sort of drifted around, with no one keeping us on topic. Side discussions about sig lines and such have become the main thrust. If we are to get anything done, I think it would be beneficial to have someone banging the gavel and saying "this is the point we are currently discussing... lets put other topics on the list and come back to them once we have settled this one". Someone who could say "the time limit for discussion on this issue is two days, then we will vote, so say what you would like to say now, please" and when appropriate, call the vote.

Anyone could put a topic on the list to be discussed (which could be posted) but it would be helpful to have someone keeping some basic parlimentary order, I think.
Do what you need to. I am not letting this issue go, and I am not letting it die.

I understand that but the problem is that whenever Lyric seems to argue for a point that even I may agree with I want to take the opposite stance. I have never seen someone so self absorded that they were willing to do something like this on a bloody forum. Its absolutely rediculous.
Hmmm...you've never been involved in student poliltics, or any other group then? :p

There will always be people who focus on a particular issue to the exclusion of all else. And it's not just going to be Lyric...hell, it may even be me, if I feel passionate enough about something. The important thing is to devise a structure that allows the group to continue to function, even when these sorts of things come up. Lyric has the right to go on and on about this issue...but not the right to force the entire group to focus on it. I understand your polarisation...but step back and move away from this issue, and life goes on.

Lyric, all your heated emotions on this issue aside, I respectfully request that you tone down the level of profanity in your posts.

This coming from a guy with the word "asshole" in his sig line!! :rolleyes:

Have you read your signature?

Oh, your "ignore" button not working?

Twice you've said you're going to put me on your ignore list, and you still reply to my posts.

All talk and little action.


You keep saying that I shouldn't have something that most of the group doesn't like, but to be honest, most of the people that have posted about it so far seem to be saying that I can have what I like in my signature.

As for existing to wind you up, as much as you might like to think that you are the most important thing in my life, you barely register. From what I can see, from your innane rantings, you are taking this far more seriously than I am.

I don't give a flying fuck! Until the group's name is removed from that slogan, it appears to be an official slogan that we all endorse and embrace...AND I FUCKING-A WELL DO NOT ENDORSE OR EMBRACE IT!! You have no fucking right to attach that label to me, to hang that albatross around my neck, to force ME to wear it like a badge of honor just because YOU want to. This issue is NOT going away.

Hmmm...you've never been involved in student poliltics, or any other group then? :p
I have but for some reason I have never run into this particular type of person when it comes to issues. I mean I have met my share of intellectual knowitalls and I can be guilty of this sometimes as well but never have I met someone so self centered here that they are willing to make an issue using other people's opinions as their own. I mean Lyric doesn't want that sig to represent the group. Has Lyric perhaps thought that the group may not mind such a thing in the sig?

There will always be people who focus on a particular issue to the exclusion of all else. And it's not just going to be Lyric...hell, it may even be me, if I feel passionate enough about something. The important thing is to devise a structure that allows the group to continue to function, even when these sorts of things come up. Lyric has the right to go on and on about this issue...but not the right to force the entire group to focus on it. I understand your polarisation...but step back and move away from this issue, and life goes on.
Except for the fact that you won't be able to move away from said issue until either Lyric gets mass ignored or she stops posting about it.

This coming from a guy with the word "asshole" in his sig line!! :rolleyes:
No, coming from a woman with the word 'asshole' in her sig, who nonetheless refrains from voluminous profanity, finds such profanity to be distracting and unecessary, and wanted to ask you personally rather than running to the mods straight off.

I have but for some reason I have never run into this particular type of person when it comes to issues. I mean I have met my share of intellectual knowitalls and I can be guilty of this sometimes as well but never have I met someone so self centered here that they are willing to make an issue using other people's opinions as their own. I mean Lyric doesn't want that sig to represent the group. Has Lyric perhaps thought that the group may not mind such a thing in the sig?We could put it to a vote. But then again...do we want majority rule here, or consensus or...JUST GO TO THE OTHER THREAD :D


Except for the fact that you won't be able to move away from said issue until either Lyric gets mass ignored or she stops posting about it.
Meh...let this thread be Lyric's. There are other threads (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9666511#post9666511).
This discussion only has power over you if you let it.

This issue is NOT going away.
Yes it is. Because you're going on my ignore list. And then you won't be able to bother me.

Incidently, you said about spreading it all across NS, I imagine the vast majority of posters won't give two shits what I have in my sig.

Ignored.

Either both of you calm down and not contact each other anymore (put each other on your ignore setting, which I see Nadkor has done), or both of you are risking further punishment from the moderators. This issue WILL be over with. Everyone else commenting on it will drop it. I expect to not see anything else on this issue (with the signatures), in any thread. Got it?

shwew - thank god that is over with.

I was avoiding this thread altogether because of it.

Okay it looks like it's time to participate in the continuation thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=445023 )

Either both of you calm down and not contact each other anymore (put each other on your ignore setting, which I see Nadkor has done), or both of you are risking further punishment from the moderators. This issue WILL be over with. Everyone else commenting on it will drop it. I expect to not see anything else on this issue (with the signatures), in any thread. Got it?

Thanks a whole bunch for siding with the enemy, Euro. I am saying she has no right to attach to ME a label I find objectionable. You are apparently willing to allow her to do that. I want some reasoning behind this. All she has to do is take out the group's name from the objectionable slogan and the whole thing would be over with.

Why are you in favor of allowing someone to put something in their signature line that appears to reference the entire group...when someone in the group finds it extremely offensive, and does not want to be associated with said signature?

I just want some justification from you why you are not coming down on Nadkor, because she is the one who started this whole thing.

shwew - thank god that is over with.


I guess you spoke too soon.

Thanks a whole bunch for siding with the enemy, Euro. I am saying she has no right to attach to ME a label I find objectionable. You are apparently willing to allow her to do that. I want some reasoning behind this. All she has to do is take out the group's name from the objectionable slogan and the whole thing would be over with.

Why are you in favor of allowing someone to put something in their signature line that appears to reference the entire group...when someone in the group finds it extremely offensive, and does not want to be associated with said signature?

I just want some justification from you why you are not coming down on Nadkor, because she is the one who started this whole thing.

If you had read a previous statement by Nadkor, the 'quote' isn't what she thinks of the group. I'm not siding with anyone by telling you both to quit talking to each other. In my non-official opinion, both of your signatures should to be deleted because it's only gonna cause more trouble.

Have you looked at it? It's in quotation marks, so I'm quoting what somebody has said about the group, I'm not actually saying it. If you had read it properly you would have noticed that very important difference.

You're the only one that seems to be upset about this, Lyric, when there's no reason to be upset in the first place. That isn't her opinion of the group, she is quoting someone else. If she were talking about the group, then it would be against the rules and it would have been deleted. I have in no way punished anyone more than anyone else. I told both of you to quit talking to each other, before you both let it get personal. Why do you expect me to go out of the way to punish Nadkor when she hasn't even done anything against the rules?

If you had read a previous statement by Nadkor, the 'quote' isn't what she thinks of the group. I'm not siding with anyone by telling you both to quit talking to each other. In my non-official opinion, both of your signatures should to be deleted because it's only gonna cause more trouble.



You're the only one that seems to be upset about this, Lyric, when there's no reason to be upset in the first place. That isn't her opinion of the group, she is quoting someone else. If she were talking about the group, then it would be against the rules and it would have been deleted. I have in no way punished anyone more than anyone else. I told both of you to quit talking to each other, before you both let it get personal. Why do you expect me to go out of the way to punish Nadkor when she hasn't even done anything against the rules?


you have punished ME by not forcing Nadkor to get rid of the signature that I find offensive. I know exactly what she is doing...she's using a troll's words as a badge of honor. If SHE wants to do that, that is fine. but she has no right to make ME wear that badge of honor...and, by attaching the group's name to that slogan, she makes it appear as if the group endorses and embraces that slogan, and I have made it quite clear that I don't.

I am only stopping this because I know if I continue you will DEAT my favorite nation, so, in effect, you're punishing me by allowing Nadkor to walk away feeling like she won...and you are forcing me to be silent about something I feel very strongly about.

Now, I will be changing my signature, but only under EXTREME protest. And my new signature will say as much. Now, I think that you ought to be sending Nadkor a telegram indicating what you just said here, that, in your non-official capacity, you believe the sig lines should be removed.

You can see from some of her previous postings that she is now keeping it strictly and solely because it pisses ME off, and she damn well knows this.

and I know she is quoting someone else. But I am not going to allow a troll's vicious, hateful words to be worn as a badge of honor! I find it dispicable!

And newcomers to this group or thread are going to think that we embrace or endorse the notion that LGBT people are "stupid, sick, and wrong." And that will turn people away, and give power to the words of a troll. I object strenuously to that. More to the point, I object to the troll's words being used as a badge of honor, and then hung on me...or a group that represents me...without my consent to same.

And, believe me, it is already personal. I can hold a grudge right along with the best, and Nadkor has earned my grudge.

you have punished ME by not forcing Nadkor to get rid of the signature that I find offensive. I know exactly what she is doing...she's using a troll's words as a badge of honor. If SHE wants to do that, that is fine. but she has no right to make ME wear that badge of honor...and, by attaching the group's name to that slogan, she makes it appear as if the group endorses and embraces that slogan, and I have made it quite clear that I don't.

{snip}
Lyric, two things. One, no one was punished. Putting Nadkor on Ignore isn't a bad idea. but if you, like me, hate to ignore anyone, then I suggest going into your profile and remove the ability to see the Sigs.

two. by declaring it 'Personal' will put a negative slant on almost any post you will say on the matter (or amost all matter) from now on... it will bring about Mod Arbitration that much faster.

Lyric, two things. One, no one was punished. Putting Nadkor on Ignore isn't a bad idea. but if you, like me, hate to ignore anyone, then I suggest going into your profile and remove the ability to see the Sigs.

two. by declaring it 'Personal' will put a negative slant on almost any post you will say on the matter (or amost all matter) from now on... it will bring about Mod Arbitration that much faster.

1. Ignoring Nadkor doesn't make it so that OTHER PEOPLE don't see her sig line. so it still attaches that goddamn offensive slogan to me, by association. And that is not fucking fair.

2. I'm being honest. It IS personal. I am angered by Nadkor attaching, by association, that slogan to me. And I am angered by the refusal of most in this group to admit that I am right, that no one has the right to use the entire group's name in the way Nadkor did. It was an offensive slogan, and both Stephistan, and one other member ALSO said as much, plus me.

The sad thing is, if we had any sort of a leader, the entire situation could have been dealt with long before it blew up the way it did. But we don't have any such leader, no one who was willing to stick up for me.

So now I end up feeling like everyone hates me, and no one will stick up for me, and I end up only being more angry and more hurt and more frustrated...well, what the fuck, I never get a goddamn thing I want, anyway, so why should this be any fucking different?

1. Ignoring Nadkor doesn't make it so that OTHER PEOPLE don't see her sig line. so it still attaches that goddamn offensive slogan to me, by association. And that is not fucking fair. (etc. etc. etc.)
Lyric, you seem to have a hard time dealing with polite requests to calm down and leave things be.

Therefore, I will be shutting you up for you. Hopefully the three day forumban will give you time to chill.

Lyric, you seem to have a hard time dealing with polite requests to calm down and leave things be.

Therefore, I will be shutting you up for you. Hopefully the three day forumban will give you time to chill.


Claps 4 admin!

***OFFICIAL IMPERIAL PROCLIMATION***

The Holy Empire expresses it's appreciation for the joining of nations who greatly accept it's Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transexual citizens. But what are your views on the Genderqueer population? Those who are neither Male nor Female? The Pure Socialist Holy Empire feels that they are also equal to everyone else in the world and was wondering if you had this same stance.

Also, we would like to open Diplomatic Talks with the leadership of the LGBT Army Alliance. If it is possible, we would like to send Mr. Johnothan Doen, Jr. Minister of Defence, to your headquarters to meet with your leadership to discuss how relations between the Pure Socialist Holy Empire and your LGBT Army could be stregnthened now and in the future.

Signed,
Emperor Galen Q. Leotardia

Genderqueer...as in intersexed? Most abundantly welcome, I'd say:)!

I think (though am not sure) that Genderqueer is actually quite a vague term, meaning both, neither, or can't decide, or don't want to decide. (in relation to gender, duh.) I don't think it's intersexed, though I believe that intersexed is physically both, which is where I might be mis-interpreting.

What the... :eek:

I am interested and will make a puppet to join this region. I am gay so it might be nice to hang out with some folks who aren't bashing.

The Moon Islands you say?

I am interested and will make a puppet to join this region. I am gay so it might be nice to hang out with some folks who aren't bashing.

The Moon Islands you say?

To tell you the truth, noone really talks in the region. There is a message board we started so that we could moderate easier (and reading thru the thread, I'm sure you can see why we'd want that). It would be awesome to have a mind like yours join us on the message board (http://s13.invisionfree.com/LGTBS_Army). I highly respect your points of view and the way you present your arguments.

The board has been slow lately as well. A fresh new face could probably liven things up. Admittedly I have thigns I need to contribute to the board as well but havent gotten to.

Is this the thread to sign up?
If so, I would like to join the LGBT Army; if not, would someone kindly tell where to do so? Thanks.

Is this the thread to sign up?
If so, I would like to join the LGBT Army; if not, would someone kindly tell where to do so? Thanks.

we actually have a message board now (see post above yours). please join us and help us get the ball rolling :)

we actually have a message board now (see post above yours). please join us and help us get the ball rolling :)

Thankee :D
Although I ought to add I'm more of a 'silent supporter' type than an actual combatant...

Thankee :D
Although I ought to add I'm more of a 'silent supporter' type than an actual combatant...

any supporters are welcome

:fluffle: