NationStates Jolt Archive

no meaning, cease to exist
live forever, no end, no meaning, no heaven

both have the same appeal for me 0. Well that pretty much goes for any eternity/oblivion situation. Sadly, no middle ground in this case.

The question is, if you're not happy with neither eternity nor oblivion, what would you be happy with?

It seems to me you are looking for an answer without being sure of the question...

God did not originate disasters.

I need a life. See you all. ;)

Oh, so he did not create life, the univers and everything after all?

Are you alluding to something in particular? i.e. What's the rational for that?

Nonetheless, as long as you have thought, you have happiness (well, not for you currently, but you'll get over it eventually). And if you don't have thought, then you don't care, now do you?

In short, there really isn't any way things can be too bad, and if it's unimaginable torment, then I guess I'll just have to wait and see. :D


What is the point of living if all you do at the end is die?
What is the point of living if all you do is live?

200+ posts in this thread and nothing makes any more sense than when I started the thread. But guess that is life.

You'll find something through your searching that strikes a chord. I know it's pendantic and callous to say this, but have patience. For me, my depression was only a couple years; my philosophy teacher claims he was depressed for over a decade (he claims a lot of things.)

Only the smart suffer. ;)

I'd like you to check out my link, if you would. You know, just to hear your opinion on it, at least.

The question is, if you're not happy with neither eternity nor oblivion, what would you be happy with?

It seems to me you are looking for an answer without being sure of the question...

As I said, sadly there are no other options. You have oblivion or you have eternity. There is no inbetween. I'm not searching for anything because nothing is there. Just merely dissapointed with the options.

What is the point of living if all you do at the end is die?
What is the point of living if all you do is live?

I mean this in the most loving way:
Quit being a whiny bitch and create your own meaning in life

But seriously, it takes time to find you niche (heh, pun). As I said before, you find pain in thought, but only there will you also find solace.

Personally, I'd love to live forever. I'd be able to discover, do, and accomplish everything. It would be great. And since discoveries create new things, that means more things to draw experiences and discoveries from. It's an endless cycle. Knowledge can be seen as a form of perpetual motion... But that's just me.

You'll find something through your searching that strikes a chord. I know it's pendantic and callous to say this, but have patience. For me, my depression was only a couple years; my philosophy teacher claims he was depressed for over a decade (he claims a lot of things.)

Only the smart suffer. ;)

I'd like you to check out my link, if you would. You know, just to hear your opinion on it, at least.

Pardon my brief bout with ignorance... but what link...

Terrifying in what way?

More terrifying that believing that the life you have is pointless, and always will be?

Whats worse than that?
Plenty of things. Broken noses, hangovers, sleep deprivation, vengeful little 3 year old gods... You name it mate.

Life may be pointless on a universal scale, but isn't the same true if there's eternal salvation? I mean, what the hell would be the point of that?

Take life as it is, and for what it is, instead. You're on the greatest journey you'll ever be on. You had the brilliant luck of being born into a mindblowingly strange, wonderful, scary, and utterly mysterious universe. If you're just the slightest bit curious, you're almost guaranteed to have your perceptions shattered & your ideas (and ideals) challenged every single day, for the rest of your life.
In a way, it's like the ultimate game, only infinitely more interesting. The prize for partaking in it, is experience. You'll get to love people so badly you'll despair. You'll get to create new life. You'll get to do all the profoundly silly, and hillariously clever things you can concieve. And you have the opportunity to change the entire world, if you want to.

How can anything be grander that this?!

Take Seipai's advice. Live life. Don't stand on the periphery, looking confused while you poke it with a stick. Dive into it. Use it. Find out what the good things are, and go get them. Otherwise you'll just be wasting your precious time, and you're not getting any second chances.

As I said, sadly there are no other options. You have oblivion or you have eternity. There is no inbetween. I'm not searching for anything because nothing is there. Just merely dissapointed with the options.

Wanna borrow a couple Prozac perscriptions?

What is the point of living if all you do at the end is die?
What is the point of living if all you do is live?

Well, some people would say, create life of your own, have children.
Others would say, have as much fun with your life as you can
Others again would say, leave an impression. Become relevant, become history.
Some might say, life for others, so they can be happy and have better lives, it will reflect back at you
Some might advise you to live for god
Others might say, live for art. Create a masterpiece of music, painting or literature.

I don't think there is a definite answer to that. Personally, I don't believe there is any sense in life, it's most likely just an accident. I'm relatively happy with that, as I know that everything will be meaningless once I'm dead anyway.

The bit of advice I can give you is:
Find out what you like, what you care about, what's important to you, what makes you smile. And then build your life around that...

I mean this in the most loving way:
Quit being a whiny bitch and create your own meaning in life

But seriously, it takes time to find you niche (heh, pun). As I said before, you find pain in thought, but only there will you also find solace.

Personally, I'd love to live forever. I'd be able to discover, do, and accomplish everything. It would be great. And since discoveries create new things, that means more things to draw experiences and discoveries from. It's an endless cycle. Knowledge can be seen as a form of perpetual motion... But that's just me.


seriously just typing this out relieves a lot of the stress, my personal little vent...



I'm not a whiny bitch ...*sniff*...

seriously just typing this out relieves a lot of the stress, my personal little vent...



I'm not a whiny bitch ...*sniff*...

I know how you feel... the forum can be a blessing in that way :fluffle: ;)

Except when sarcasm comes into play, then people just look at you funny, throw a few pennies in your cup, and run away

Some reading material / homework:

Research and Google the following, there will be a test next Monday:

active vs. passive nihilism
absurdism
existentialism

Eidalons,
The point of life is so simple that most people miss it.
It isnt in following some 2000 year old book that contradicts itself, hoping for a reward for jumping through spiritual hoops.

Its simply being alive.

You are given one life.

Make the most of it.

Surround yourself with those you love, and that wich you love.

The bottom line is that you must always do what it takes to make yourself happy, or there is no point to life.

If you allow yourself to wallow in your own misery, you will drown in it.
Take it from me, I know.
Been there.
Done that.

If you cannot find what you seek in Jesus, discard him, and find something that fills the void.

Smoke a doobie...

Get a puppy...

Something.

Except when sarcasm comes into play, then people just look at you funny, throw a few pennies in your cup, and run away

I'll let you in on a little secret... I somtimes enjoy freaking people out ;) Just for the sheer fun of their reactions...

seriously just typing this out relieves a lot of the stress, my personal little vent...



I'm not a whiny bitch ...*sniff*...

It's better than how I dealt with it. All I did was look at porn, sleep, and be a asshole online. I also read a lot, and never stopped searching for answers.


...Actually, I guess not much has changed. (But it was a lot worse) :D

I'll let you in on a little secret... I somtimes enjoy freaking people out ;) Just for the sheer fun of their reactions...

I'll let you in on a little secret... I'm a nudist at home.

I'll let you in on a little secret... I'm a nudist at home.

Why only at home?

Philosophy Degree on my wall, no more tests please... brain needs time to return to working order...

I've tried sarcasm elsewhere, but I was kidnapped by evil 400 pound gorillas, forced to enroll in Feminsim and You courses, dance at My Lovely Policeman bar and grill every Saturday, and go to peer groups every other week for two years...

Pardon my brief bout with ignorance... but what link...

Well, I guess it would be easier to notice my posts if you had the sigs turned on. Maybe I should just type in bold red all the time. *Mod stands up* Nevermind.

Here's the link. It's the thing that made me stop feeling depressed.
http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/sisyphus.htm

I'm going to bed now. You're all welcome to join me... in my bed.

No ladies though; my girlfriend would get jealous.

Plenty of things. Broken noses, hangovers, sleep deprivation, vengeful little 3 year old gods... You name it mate.

Life may be pointless on a universal scale, but isn't the same true if there's eternal salvation? I mean, what the hell would be the point of that?

Take life as it is, and for what it is, instead. You're on the greatest journey you'll ever be on. You had the brilliant luck of being born into a mindblowingly strange, wonderful, scary, and utterly mysterious universe. If you're just the slightest bit curious, you're almost guaranteed to have your perceptions shattered & your ideas (and ideals) challenged every single day, for the rest of your life.
In a way, it's like the ultimate game, only infinitely more interesting. The prize for partaking in it, is experience. You'll get to love people so badly you'll despair. You'll get to create new life. You'll get to do all the profoundly silly, and hillariously clever things you can concieve. And you have the opportunity to change the entire world, if you want to.

How can anything be grander that this?!

Take Seipai's advice. Live life. Don't stand on the periphery, looking confused while you poke it with a stick. Dive into it. Use it. Find out what the good things are, and go get them. Otherwise you'll just be wasting your precious time, and you're not getting any second chances.

Im completely unaware of why you directed that at me.

interesting link... it will take a while to fully digest it though. Try to get back to you on it later.

The best anti-depressive I know of, is love. If that's not on the horizon, settle for sex instead. Both will leave you addled & giddy (which is much underrated in my opinion).

If that fails, challenge yourself to do something you're scared of. Go 1000 miles away alone, without knowing anyone, and make a friend. Or ski down a mountainside. Or take a survival trip with a bunch of strangers.

Anything that'll force you to focus on stuff outside your own skull will do, but obviously, things that prevents you from deep philosophical thinking is preferrable. But I warn you: you may accidentially have a blast ;)

Im completely unaware of why you directed that at me.
Because of the bit I quoted you for. Sorry. I got the impression you shared The Eidalons' outlook on life. I'm glad to see I was wrong about that, and I'm sorry about the mixup.

The best anti-depressive I know of, is love. If that's not on the horizon, settle for sex instead. Both will leave you addled & giddy (which is much underrated in my opinion).

If that fails, challenge yourself to do something you're scared of. Go 1000 miles away alone, without knowing anyone, and make a friend. Or ski down a mountainside. Or take a survival trip with a bunch of strangers.

Anything that'll force you to focus on stuff outside your own skull will do, but obviously, things that prevents you from deep philosophical thinking is preferrable. But I warn you: you may accidentially have a blast ;)

I avoid them at all costs, one time I blew off half a school lab table... I have my parole hearing in November.

interesting link... it will take a while to fully digest it though. Try to get back to you on it later.

No problem. But seriously, I'm going to bed now (after the next post).
(Third time's the charm).

I'm not going to treat you like and invalid and say "you're welcome to telegram me if you ever want to talk about this," but... you know. Call me. 876-5309.

In all seriousness, though, find people who you can talk to about this, because it does help. And never stop reading, thinking, and trying to conquer the unconquerable.

No problem. But seriously, I'm going to bed now (after the next post).
(Third time's the charm).

I'm not going to treat you like and invalid and say "you're welcome to telegram me if you ever want to talk about this," but... you know. Call me. 876-5309.

In all seriousness, though, find people who you can talk to about this, because it does help. And never stop reading, thinking, and trying to conquer the unconquerable.


me = philosopher = :headbang:

I have the trying to conquer the unconquerable down to an artform

Because of the bit I quoted you for. Sorry. I got the impression you shared The Eidalons' outlook on life. I'm glad to see I was wrong about that, and I'm sorry about the mixup.


Forgiven.

Take Seipai's advice. Live life

It's Saipea, you ****! From the latin word for wisdom!

me = philosopher = :headbang:

I have the trying to conquer the unconquerable down to an artform

I know that, and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be pendantic. On the other hand, you seem to be going through a rough spot, and sometimes we just need reminders. Not even the best of us are immune to the whims of the mind.

It's Saipea! From the latin word for wisdom.
Sorry, I knew a guy called seipai once. Now go to bed you whiney bastard :D

I know that, and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be pendantic. On the other hand, you seem to be going through a rough spot, and sometimes we just need reminders. Not even the best of us are immune to the whims of the mind.

Actually, we are at the mercy of the whims of the mind.

Not a bad thing, especially since the mind is easily fooled

Sorry, I knew a guy called seipai once. Now go to bed you whiney bastard :D

Oh ya, well my best friend is named maitai! (Actually it's mimosa)

Touche. I'm off to bed. Naked. teehee. hee.

Oh ya, well my best friend is named maitai! (Actually it's mimosa)

Touche. I'm off to bed. Naked. teehee. hee.
Can I come? I'm bored :p

Nite nite mate

(Since this was hopelessly buried the first time, thought I'd bring it up here to get the thread back on track...)

If God really was perfect, there wouldn't be so many different faiths in this world, or even different interpretations of the same faith (how many different versions of Christianity are there, exactly?)

There is only one being worthy of worship: Oneself

Bare with me. All deities and religions are of human construct. Humans are as such worshipping their own ideas. It's most likely safe to say that every person's idea of "God" is, if only ever so slightly, different. That leads to the conclusion that every person must find his own God, be it the Christian God, Allah, Zeus or whatever. For some people "God" is all of nature or the universe itself. For some people (i.e. atheists) God is no more than your own mind and perceptions.

Many (Christians especially) gladly tout that they've "found God" and live infinitely more happily because of it. Good for you. You've found your God. Indeed, I do believe that someone can become happier and more successful with religion and faith. That is most likely due to two things: the comfort of having faith in something eternal that transcends the harshness of reality, and affirmation:

When somebody prays, they pour all their will and faith into their wishes that they formulate into words. A Wiccan casting a ritual does the same thing. They might both get results, but that is not because of some divine intervention. The power of will makes them stronger and more capable of achieving their goals or finding opportunity when it presents itself. Studies have shown that people that feel lucky in life generally are because their positive demeanor allows them to see possiblities that others miss.

But this all shows why attempting to convert people is mostly pointless. People need to find the truth for themselves.

Sorry for the long rant of pseudo-religion. I hope at least someone thinks it makes sense.

(Since this was hopelessly buried the first time, thought I'd bring it up here to get the thread back on track...)
<Snip>
I think the religious ones have deserted the thread. I pretty much agree with you, but answering the op's question by saying "God is a figment of man's imagination" is no answer at all.

I think the religious ones have deserted the thread. I pretty much agree with you, but answering the op's question by saying "God is a figment of man's imagination" is no answer at all.

The original question is "What kind of being demands worship?" I answered that by saying that it is only the ideas of man that demand worship. But yeah, I can see that many would be unhappy with such an answer...

Your parents may not demand your respect, but because they are your parents and your elders, therefore they require and are worthy of respect.

It's the same logic for a god.

If my parents were rotten monsters who would punish me for not showing respect they wouldn't be worthy of respect in the first place.

Respect, for anyone is earned, not a given.

That said my parents are quite good(but certainly far from perfect) and worthy of respect.

It's not like he's asking for a virgin sacrifice or anything, just 10% of ur money and three hours on sundays...lol

If God were to ask for virgin sacrifices, I think I would respect him more.

I mean, he still wouldn't deserve my worship (and certainly not my precious virgins), but it would be nice to see him give up on this slinking around, this pretense to benevolence that somehow never materializes.

As it is, when I tell him to fuck off so I can get on with my life, I feel like I'm kicking a man while he's down. But if he would step up and start making crazy demands, at least I could say, "Now there's a God worth messing with."

Surprisingly, all the texts mentioning Lucifer and Satan, that are not fiction or theory, seem to have nothing about Lucifer demanding worship. In fact his fall from grace seems to be because he refused to bow to god. Of all the figures in popular religion, he seems to be the most rational one.

Yeah... maybe that's why the image of his serpent graces the medical staff of Asclepius. ;)

Not true. There's a price to pay for everything. You may feel locked up in that little house eating vegetables with your restrictive parents, but your parents will love and protect you and give you whatever that is the best.

You seem to be incorrectly generalizing about parents.

Do you really believe all parents are good parents? Should parents not be judged on their actions, rather than the fact that they are parents?

If so, should God not be judged on his actions, rather than the mere fact that he is God?

I understand you completely. But I'm trying to tell you that you've got the analogy completely wrong on the first step because God doesn't ask you to do anything detrimental to others.

Not too familiar with the Old Testament, are we?

Because, Perfection Incarnate deserves nothing less than total adoration and praise.

That may also be true of the finest architecture in the world, but you won't go to Hell if it just doesn't interest you.

To refuse to love and adore that which is omnibenevolent is equal to loving that which is wicked and evil.

How is that? Imagine the most benevolent human being in the world. Now, imagine that you do your best to be pretty damn benevolent yourself: you are a good person. But maybe not that good. In any case, you don't love the omnibenevolent person. (Actually, you are pretty convinced that he may be confused about what "benevolence" really means.)

Does that make you evil? If not, what difference does it make if the benevolent being that you do not love is more benevolent, or "perfectly" benevolent... or God?

You cannot understand the words of God merely by your five senses and your own intelligence. You will only understand God with your soul. It's not that you don't have one, but if you don't believe there is one, then how is it going to help you understand God?

Ahh, I remember this conversation:

Me: This book is stupid, contradictory, and utterly uninspiring.
Christian: Ah, but if you believe, you will understand.
Me: Oh, okay. And why should I "believe"?
Christian: It's all in this book....

God isn't God for nothing. He's automatically worthy of respect and worship BECAUSE He is God.

And what about when God is wrong?

So - whatever he does - killing people, torturing them, treating them unjustly, judging them to impossible standards, messing with them in any way possible - every act of hate on his part would still mean we have to love him? Boy, that's masochistic...

Yeah.

Apparently, if we don't measure up, we go to Hell.
On the other hand, our love for God has to be truly unconditional: it doesn't matter what he does, we're still supposed to love him.

Why would God set a higher standard for his creation than the standard to which he holds himself?

A random copy of the Bible. If you can show me where in the Bible that God hates homosexuals, I'll give you a chocolate chip cookie and then explain to you.

God doesn't hate homosexuals; Paul does.

Of course, Paul also advocated slavery, and may have been gay himself. So, I don't know I would take his word for anything.

Of course, none of the other biblical authors are any better.

No. God is not dead. I just didn't outline the entire story of Easter. Do I need to?

Easter? You mean the pagan goddess of Spring, represented by the happy virility of the rabbit? :D

Oh... wait... I think you mean something else. :mad:

Easter? You mean the pagan goddess of Spring, represented by the happy virility of the rabbit? :D

Oh... wait... I think you mean something else. :mad:


No I think he meant Christmas, where we celebrate the winter solstice by decorating a pine tree.

Okay..but have you ever given God the chance to earn your respect? Have you ever prayed to Him in sincerity and full confidence?

I have, as a matter of fact. I was raised Christian, and for a brief period actually considered seminary training.

Of course, whenever I tell that to Christians, they respond, "Well, clearly you didn't do it right."

And you wonder why we get frustrated talking to you people??? :headbang:

A different Paul other than the famous Paul/Saul wrote revelations, which I'm reffering to. His texts started from one of the Grecian islands (?)

Revelations?

That's John. Not Paul. JOHN.

And Patmos.

God does not torture anyone for eternity. God is the sole source of all things good, and to sin is to seperate yourself from Him. It would not be just for Him to allow your presence alongside His in your current state, therefore He will not take you unless you repent. God does not choose your fate, you, using your free will, determine it by accepting or rejecting Christ. If you reject Him, then you cannot be in His presence and therefore must reside in a place devoid of God and therefore devoid of anything good. Flames could be a metaphor for that seperation from love, mercy, joy, happiness, etc. that you embrace.

I really love this argument. Really.

On the one hand, we have a God who punishes people for eternity if they "don't love him." Sounds a lot like a guy who beats his date because she won't sleep with him.

"No no!" say the Christians. God doesn't punish you! You "punish yourself" by straying from God.

Okay, new metaphor. God is having a secret party. He doesn't post any signs, he doesn't come out front to greet people... No. He just tells a few friends to write stories about how great his party is, and how if you just believe in his party, one day you will be magically transported to it.

So, the sort of people who like to live in fantasy believe in the party and get teleported into paradise. The reasoning people who have better things to do with their time than listen to silly stories, wander past and fall into an eternal fiery pit.

I guess God just likes to surround himself with yes-men. Not exactly the kind of boss I want running the universe.

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?
I do.

Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.
Is it? What if the "punishment" for refusing to follow him is that your soul simply gets snuffed out like a candle flame upon your death? (That's what most atheists argue happens at the end of a person's life anyway; we cease to exist. So it seems strangely correct in a very ironic kind of way.)

The whole "eternal torture" thing doesn't make much sense. There is a case to be made for not letting someone into heaven because of their sins, but burn them forever? That seems to be a rather nasty image of God.

Besides, I'd like someone to point out where the Bible talks about Hell . . .
Ive never been sure of what "in his own likeness" meant, to be honest.
Oooh, oooh, I can answer that. "Made in his image" means we have the ability to conceive of his presence and react to all things spiritual. Animals, who were not made in his image, do not posess this capacity.

And he didn't lose to God, because Christian mythology says he's still around. So you know, that means God isn't omnipotent...
We've kind of romanticized angels in popular culture, but angels are no more than constructs created to a serve a purpose, without variation (much like a computer). Satan was created to serve a purpose as well. If God was the only one to exist, it'd be like saying "Vote for whoever you want!", and then only putting one name on a ballot. :D

Is it? What if the "punishment" for refusing to follow him is that your soul simply gets snuffed out like a candle flame upon your death? (That's what most atheists argue happens at the end of a person's life anyway; we cease to exist. So it seems strangely correct in a very ironic kind of way.)

You do realise that this is some people's idea of heaven? Simply to cease to exist?

Nietzsche? One of the most intelligent humans? *giggle*


You are believing falsehoods. You do not understand the Christian God, you do not understand why He deserves worship. Why question religion when you have no read its texts? I'm presuming you haven't, because your statements seem to indicate such.

:headbang:

It could be he might deserve worship, but that's ignoring the original question? Why does he demand it? Why does he need it?

You do realise that this is some people's idea of heaven? Simply to cease to exist?
So everyone wins? =P

The whole "eternal torture" thing doesn't make much sense. There is a case to be made for not letting someone into heaven because of their sins, but burn them forever? That seems to be a rather nasty image of God.

Besides, I'd like someone to point out where the Bible talks about Hell . . .



Its in there.

Especially in the New Testament.

The difference was that in the OT, Hell is described as "an absence of God".
Thats it...

It was the NT, that portrayed Hell as a lake of fire, where souls were tortured and whatnot.

Its becuase in the days of early christiandom, the easiest way to gain a convert, was to scare the piss out of them with some Fire and Brimstone.

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?

The Christian God does not "require" worship as you put it. You dont have to worship him, its just a response to what he's done for you. If somone did for you the greatest act of love ever known in the universe, how exactly would you react. Worship is just an apropriate response for what God has done for us via Jesus.

Besides, I'd like someone to point out where the Bible talks about Hell . . .

How about Luke 16:22-28?

"the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

Or Matthew 25:41, where Jesus says, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE."

Always happy to help Christians find the horrifying words of their own text. ;)

ok.....so we have what...over 300 posts here?
why?.....so most of you dont believe in god....fine......your obviously not making an impact on those of us who do.

you dont believe in god then get on with your life...i am not trying to convert you so why this constant need to try and belittle the faiths of the religous on these threads......cause quite frankly it comes across as folks just wallowing in their seemingly intelligent points and arguements....whoopee for you, you can string a sentence together and dont believe in god....hooray

but its getting a little old ya know

as a practicing catholic nothing on this thread changes my views or beliefs...if anything some of the ill thought out points just show the ignorance of those who seem to find happiness dancing on peoples faiths.

comparing a christian god god to a woman beater?...i mean wtf!!!
jeez if i said something similar about jews the anti-semtic card would be out like a shot....give it a rest people

The Christian God does not "require" worship as you put it. You dont have to worship him, its just a response to what he's done for you. If somone did for you the greatest act of love ever known in the universe, how exactly would you react. Worship is just an apropriate response for what God has done for us via Jesus.


Crap.

"I am a Jealous God, and you shall not worship any God before me."

That was LOOOOOONG before ol JC showed up.

ok.....so we have what...over 300 posts here?
why?.....so most of you dont believe in god....fine......your obviously not making an impact on those of us who do.

you dont believe in god then get on with your life...i am not trying to convert you so why this constant need to try and belittle the faiths of the religous on these threads......cause quite frankly it comes across as folks just wallowing in their seemingly intelligent points and arguements....whoopee for you, you can string a sentence together and dont believe in god....hooray

but its getting a little old ya know

as a practicing catholic nothing on this thread changes my views or beliefs...if anything some of the ill thought out points just show the ignorance of those who seem to find happiness dancing on peoples faiths.

comparing a christian god god to a woman beater?...i mean wtf!!!
jeez if i said something similar about jews the anti-semtic card would be out like a shot....give it a rest people

So..what was the point of your post of not to bitch?

You know what?

You could always not read it, if you dont like it.

[QUOTE=Darksbania]Besides, I'd like someone to point out where the Bible talks about Hell . . .

How about Luke 16:22-28?

"the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

Or Matthew 25:41, where Jesus says, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE."

Always happy to help Christians find the horrifying words of their own text. ;)
It's funny. Almost everyone admits that the Bible is often metaphorical, and yet when it comes to Hell everyone screams "He mentioned fire!!!"

Seriously, fire consumes. You get snuffed out . . . forever.

The difference was that in the OT, Hell is described as "an absence of God".
Thats it...

Actually, the Old Testament is just as literal (if not more so), in its discussion of Hell. The "Hell" of the Old Testament is very much a version of the "Hades" found in ancient Greek culture. It was a place, deep within the earth. Most ancient cultures in this area shared essentially the same notion.

For such devout Christians, you people really don't know much about the Bible, do you?

Indeed, I would love for you to find me a bible passage that describes Hell as nothing more than the "absence of God." As far as I know, this came out of medieval interpretations, rather than literal references to the text.

the point of my post was to bitch...i thought that was plainly obvious

[QUOTE=AnarchyeL]
It's funny. Almost everyone admits that the Bible is often metaphorical, and yet when it comes to Hell everyone screams "He mentioned fire!!!"

Seriously, fire consumes. You get snuffed out . . . forever.

Ahh, but the key word is not fire. The key words are "eternal" and "torment."

God is a sadistic bastard. He made a damn bush that burned without being consumed. I suppose he plans to do the same with all of us sinners.

Actually, the Old Testament is just as literal (if not more so), in its discussion of Hell. The "Hell" of the Old Testament is very much a version of the "Hades" found in ancient Greek culture. It was a place, deep within the earth. Most ancient cultures in this area shared essentially the same notion.

For such devout Christians, you people really don't know much about the Bible, do you?

Indeed, I would love for you to find me a bible passage that describes Hell as nothing more than the "absence of God." As far as I know, this came out of medieval interpretations, rather than literal references to the text.

The Jewish faith believes Hell to be merely an absence from God.
Thats the truth.

Also, who on earth are you calling a devout Christian??

the point of my post was to bitch...i thought that was plainly obvious


Then your wasting your breath, and bandwith.

Worse, your showing an equal intolerance, to the one your complaining about.

Boob.

The Jewish faith believes Hell to be merely an absence from God.
Thats the truth.

That doesn't mean they get that belief from the Bible.

Ahh, but the key word is not fire. The key words are "eternal" and "torment."

It's a parable, here's a view not inside a story:
“Do not be afraid of those [people] who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one [God] who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt. 10:28)

Hell, by the way, translated from the text often means "pit" or "grave".

Then your wasting your breath, and bandwith.

Worse, your showing an equal intolerance, to the one your complaining about.

Boob.

and this thread isn't a waste of breath and bandwidth?
what is it achieving........boob?....aw yeah thats a quality bit of insult there

That doesn't mean they get that belief from the Bible.


Ummm....yeah, it does.

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?

simple answer God loved you enough to send his son to die so that we could be with Him and the fact is without Him there is no you or me so how about a bit more respect for the Father up stairs

It's a parable, here's a view not inside a story:
“Do not be afraid of those [people] who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one [God] who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt. 10:28)

Hell, by the way, translated from the text often means "pit" or "grave".

Yeah. And the best translations usually render it "Hades."

So, now we have conflicting biblical passages -- big surprise. Although I would note that yours says God can destroy the soul, not that he necessarily does. Perhaps it depends on the crime? (Also, the second of my quotations was not from a parable at all; check it again.)

Ummm....yeah, it does.

Ummm....No, it doesn't.

Most religions, including modern Judaism, have a wide range of beliefs that are, at best, only indirectly attributable to their primary religious texts.

If the belief that Hell is an "absence from God" comes from the Bible, then you should be able to point to a relevant passage. If you do that, then I will be forced to change my mind.

Considering the array of searchable bible texts online, it should not be much to ask.

and this thread isn't a waste of breath and bandwidth?
what is it achieving........boob?....aw yeah thats a quality bit of insult there


Its an accurate one.

You were complaining about how you percieve all of us Athiests as doing nothing more than "bashing" your faith, or even sillier, trying to convert you.

No one cares what you believe.

If you covert to the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster...no one will care.

What you did...was post your complaints about another belief...and say that were were persecuting you...while you were persecuting us....

If you cant see how stupid that really was....then your a boob.

The thread title ..look at it.

What on earth were you expecting when you entered this thread?

Ummm....No, it doesn't.

Most religions, including modern Judaism, have a wide range of beliefs that are, at best, only indirectly attributable to their primary religious texts.

If the belief that Hell is an "absence from God" comes from the Bible, then you should be able to point to a relevant passage. If you do that, then I will be forced to change my mind.

Considering the array of searchable bible texts online, it should not be much to ask.


Sigh...

That old thing again?

I honestly dont have the time.

But I can say this....its there.
Hell..in fact, you can even look it up on the History Channel.
They do shows about Bible history all the time.

The one in particular was "The History of Hell."

It showed the differences in the texts that references were made to it.
In the OT, other than vague references to it, there is no mention of suffering, or torment.
Merely, " a place away from God".
Earth, actually...seems to fit that description nicely.

The NT, however, was the series that introduced the ideas of suffering, pain, toture, and fire....all to gain more coverts.

Since you used the tired old "prove it" line..I'll use the equally tired "do your own research" line.

At any rate...its way past my bedtime, and I must sleep.

If this thread survives the night...I'll give the texts some looking through.
But as an athiest....that stuff bores me silly, so Its not something I look forward to.

Is this just the absence of God?

The sinners in Zion are afraid;
Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites:
"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

Yeah. And the best translations usually render it "Hades."

From the Greek, the same word gets translated differently.

"Neither was [Jesus] forsaken in Hades [hell, King James Version] nor did his flesh see corruption."

Replace Hades with grave. See the connection?

A lot of strangeness about Christianity comes from the translations. =/

Muslims don't translate the Quran for just such a reason, and the wisdom of that decision is starting to make sense. :D

Its an accurate one.

You were complaining about how you percieve all of us Athiests as doing nothing more than "bashing" your faith, or even sillier, trying to convert you.

No one cares what you believe.

If you covert to the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster...no one will care.

What you did...was post your complaints about another belief...and say that were were persecuting you...while you were persecuting us....

If you cant see how stupid that really was....then your a boob.

The thread title ..look at it.

What on earth were you expecting when you entered this thread?

how is questioning "bashing" as you state it persecution?
i asked for no ones care or emotion on the subjectof my religion nor do i give a shit....i pointed out that this is another in a long line of "bashing" type threads....
the thread title? yeah i looked at it.....right before i choose to sumit a reply....to point out the self gratifaction of some who choose to continuously come out with this continual drivel

and i didn't post complaints about another belief.....i posted a complaint about this parade of anti-religion...one in a long line.....end-of

simple answer God loved you enough to send his son to die so that we could be with Him and the fact is without Him there is no you or me so how about a bit more respect for the Father up stairs

How about punctuation marks?

how is questioning "bashing" as you state it persecution?
i asked for no ones care or emotion on the subjectof my religion nor do i give a shit....i pointed out that this is another in a long line of "bashing" type threads....
the thread title? yeah i looked at it.....right before i choose to sumit a reply....to point out the self gratifaction of some who choose to continuously come out with this continual drivel

and i didn't post complaints about another belief.....i posted a complaint about this parade of anti-religion...one in a long line.....end-of

Wich goes to show you didnt actually read anything OF this thread, and were just complaining mindlessly about what you assumed was "bashing".

So..you just came in here to whine.

Your awesome.

What Kind of Being Demands Worship?
Movie stars.

why does any bieng require worship?
Because god has been made into a movie star.

Your parents may not demand your respect, but because they are your parents and your elders, therefore they require and are worthy of respect.

It's the same logic for a god.


Parents are not automatically worthy of respect. Or at least, they can lose that right if they're abusive.

Wich goes to show you didnt actually read anything OF this thread, and were just complaining mindlessly about what you assumed was "bashing".

So..you just came in here to whine.

Your awesome.


hell if others can complain mindlessly about religion why can i not reply in kind

thanks man......you're opinion has me uplifted me for the rest of my day

This isn't a criticism or anything, but I thought I had to point this out:
How about punctuation marks?
Which goes to show you didn't actually read anything OF this thread and were just complaining mindlessly about what you assumed was "bashing".

So... you just came in here to whine.

You're awesome.Glad to be of assistance. ^_^

-- < This message was brought to you by the Kamsaki Counter-Hypocracy agency > --

Sigh...

That old thing again?

I honestly dont have the time.

Oh, please! You have the time to post on Nationstates, but not the time to do a simple Internet search? Sounds like denial to me.

But I can say this....its there.

Well, "you say so" is not good enough... So I did your work for you. A search of the KJB on "Hell" turns up nothing that even remotely suggests the interpretation that it is "the absence of God."

It does, however, produce these:

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Yep, there's that "pit" business... but that's just the good old "Hades" version of the "pit". I never disputed that translation... and I don't see how you think it supports this "absence of God" interpretation. A "pit" seems like a very physical place to me.... and not a very nice one!!


Hell..in fact, you can even look it up on the History Channel.
They do shows about Bible history all the time.

The one in particular was "The History of Hell."

Actually, the name of the program is "Hell: The Devil's Domain," and while it mentions "the absence of God" as one interpretation of Hell, it does not claim that the Bible offers direct support of this interpretation.

Merely, " a place away from God".
Earth, actually...seems to fit that description nicely.

Well, then it's not much of a punishment, is it? I'm pretty happy here.

I'll use the equally tired "do your own research" line.

I have. I'm not satisfied. If you want to convince me, you'll have to try harder.

But as an athiest....that stuff bores me silly, so Its not something I look forward to.

Ahh... On the contrary, as an atheist I find it most interesting, if only because it provides ample opportunities for me to throw Christians' own religion in their faces.

Good night.

;)

hell if others can complain mindlessly about religion why can i not reply in kind




Why?

Because they, unlike you..actually READ the thread posts instead of reacting to the title alone, and posted to bitch about something you had no idea of.

They were trying to intellectually answer the original question, and not just "bash" your religion.
Of course, had you actually read any of this thread, you would have known that.

So..essentially, what you did, was make an uniformed post, wich had nothing to do with answering the original posters question, wherein you bashed the beliefs of others...while complaining about them, doing the same to you.

That sir, makes you a boob.

Good night.

Czardas :p

Oh, please! You have the time to post on Nationstates, but not the time to do a simple Internet search? Sounds like denial to me.

I knew you would say that.

Its true..Im seconds away from going to bed...Im only staying to yell at that other boob.

As for the rest..I will get back to you on this...I just dont have the time now.

Until later.

This isn't a criticism or anything, but I thought I had to point this out:

Glad to be of assistance. ^_^

-- < This message was brought to you by the Kamsaki Counter-Hypocracy agency > --


quiet you!

I knew you would say that.

Its true..Im seconds away from going to bed...Im only staying to yell at that other boob.

As for the rest..I will get back to you on this...I just dont have the time now.

Until later.

this mean i can get petty vengence on you by contiuously posting and keeping you awake?.....is only like 2pm here


quit it with the boob!!!

no god deserves worship. there, problem solved...

Until later.

In the meantime, I will happily admit that the text of the Old Testament does not rule out the modern Judaic interpretation of Hell. It hardly rules out anything, given the vague and contradictory nature of the text.

Nevertheless -- modern Jewish theology notwithstanding -- the textual evidence, combined with external historical evidence regarding the religious beliefs of the world in which the Bible was written, strongly suggests that to the people who wrote the words, Hell (Hades, the pit, etc.) was a physical place of torment.

Of course, if you go back just slightly further (to before the writing of the Bible), you find a Hebrew god who was perhaps the most "secular" of all gods, if that makes any sense: both his promises and his rewards, and his judgment and vengeance, were earthly. There was no "afterlife," excepting legends of a very few extremely holy people who did not die but ascended directly to Heaven.

Then again, after seeing this, maybe there is such a thing as divine intervention, or at least retribution from beyond the grave...

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/09/07/belgium.cemetery.reut/index.html


Falling gravestone kills woman

Wednesday, September 7, 2005 Posted: 1249 GMT (2049 HKT)

BRUSSELS, Belgium (Reuters) -- An inebriated Belgian woman died in a freak accident when she ended up beneath a heavy gravestone at a cemetery, local news agency Belga said on Wednesday.

The 33-year-old was on her way home from a bar in the Belgian town of Pulle in the early hours of Saturday when she took a short cut through the cemetery.

But she urgently needed to relieve herself and crouched down between two gravestones. As she lost her balance, she grabbed one of the stones which gave way and landed on top of her.

The public prosecutor's office said she died of suffocation as she was unable to lift the heavy stone.

no god deserves worship. there, problem solved...

The question was not whether a being deserves worship, but why any would demand to be worshiped. I know that there are several gods and godlike beings that have demanded to be worshipped. Just find a bible, or the Qoran, or many of the religious texts in the world. But there may be some being or god out there that has earned worshipand I am just unaware of this being.

The question was not whether a being deserves worship, but why any would demand to be worshiped. I know that there are several gods and godlike beings that have demanded to be worshipped. Just find a bible, or the Qoran, or many of the religious texts in the world. But there may be some being or god out there that has earned worshipand I am just unaware of this being.SInce it was ignored, I will repeat my earlier observation. The purpose of worship is not to benifit the diety, but to benefit the worshipper by bringing them closer to the diety. Why would a parent demand of their cildren that the children brush their teeth and go to the dentist? So that the parent can have the joy of cleaning toothpaste slime from the sink which they might otherwise miss, or the pleasure of paying extravagant bills to the dentist?

I believe that I am my own god it's a good system that way

Then again, after seeing this, maybe there is such a thing as divine intervention, or at least retribution from beyond the grave...

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/09/07/belgium.cemetery.reut/index.html

irony is a beautiful thing innit

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?
It is not the Worship that gets you into heaven, it's the relationship.
Why do you tell your girlfriend/wife that you love her?
Same deal; it strengthens the relationship.

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?

Only Semitic/Abrahamic faiths have that notion. Sometimes God does look like a cosmic Saddam Hussein. :D

Eastern faiths - Hinduism and its offshoots Buddhism, Jainism etc do not view God as a being removed from its "creation". Hinduism considers our individual souls as eternal, indivisible and indestructable and not as a "creation" made for fun or pastime or to have them worship God. A soul is an infinitesmal unit of consciousness which is part and parcel of Supreme conscousness. The reaslised souls go back to its original constitutional position of sat-chid-ananda (transcendental eternal bliss).

Hence there is no being that "demands" worship. No eternal damnation in hell fire either at the whims and fancies of the cosmic Saddam Hussein.

Only Semitic/Abrahamic faiths have that notion. Sometimes God does look like a cosmic Saddam Hussein. :D

Eastern faiths - Hinduism and its offshoots Buddhism, Jainism etc do not view God as a being removed from its "creation". Hinduism considers our individual souls as eternal, indivisible and indestructable and not as a "creation" made for fun or pastime or to have them worship God. A soul is an infinitesmal unit of consciousness which is part and parcel of Supreme conscousness. The reaslised souls go back to its original constitutional position of sat-chid-ananda (transcendental eternal bliss).

Hence there is no being that "demands" worship. No eternal damnation in hell fire either at the whims and fancies of the cosmic Saddam Hussein.

I prefer the cosmic Hussein over most of the Easter Faiths... at least in Hell I am still an individual and aware of such. There is no difference between transcendental eternal bliss and oblivion. Either way you lose self awareness.

SInce it was ignored, I will repeat my earlier observation. The purpose of worship is not to benifit the diety, but to benefit the worshipper by bringing them closer to the diety. Why would a parent demand of their cildren that the children brush their teeth and go to the dentist? So that the parent can have the joy of cleaning toothpaste slime from the sink which they might otherwise miss, or the pleasure of paying extravagant bills to the dentist?

There is a huge difference between a parent requiring the child to brush his teeth and a god requiring worship. Worship has no obviousnherent benefits as compared to brushing one's teeth. And last time I checked, my parents did not require me to kneel before them and pray to them.

I prefer the cosmic Hussein over most of the Easter Faiths... at least in Hell I am still an individual and aware of such. There is no difference between transcendental eternal bliss and oblivion. Either way you lose self awareness.

A drop of ocean is still ocean. It does not become something else when it joins the bigger ocean.

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?not all gods were be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, Hera punished those who rivaled her beauty, Loki was a trickster, reviling in toying with humans, same with Hermies. Apollo was another vain god, infact Greek, Roman and Nose Gods often time toy with humans with very little by way of love being shown.

A drop of ocean is still ocean. It does not become something else when it joins the bigger ocean.

Transcendental eternal bliss in the Easter faiths, is the loss of personal identity and the complete reintegration into the one supreme consciousness. I cease being me. I become it. You place that drop of water back into the ocean you cannot seperate it back out.

I become it.

you are already it. You just don't know it. :)

not all gods were be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, Hera punished those who rivaled her beauty, Loki was a trickster, reviling in toying with humans, same with Hermies. Apollo was another vain god, infact Greek, Roman and Nose Gods often time toy with humans with very little by way of love being shown.

Still, why do any "gods" demand and require worship? They are gods, why would they care?

you are already it. You just don't know it. :)

No, I am not. A drop of water is not the ocean. I.E. sugar alone is not a cake, but it does become a part of it.

No, I am not. A drop of water is not the ocean. I.E. sugar alone is not a cake, but it does become a part of it.

A droplet of ocean seperated from it is still ocean, although the drop itself may not be aware of it. And when the drop rejoins the ocean, it is still the ocean and it does not lose its "identity" because it never had a real identity seperate from the ocean.

I hope it is clear to you now.

A droplet of ocean seperated from it is still ocean, although the drop itself may not be aware of it. And when the drop rejoins the ocean, it is still the ocean and it does not lose its "identity" because it never had a real identity seperate from the ocean.

I hope it is clear to you now.

It will never be clear because I do not agree. I will gladly forfeit my transcendence to remain ignorant "of who I really am".

It will never be clear because I do not agree. I will gladly forfeit my transcendence to remain ignorant "of who I really am".

Your choice. Your wish. Your karma. :)

Your gladness is illusory and temporary until old age and diseases catch up with you, as it surely will. Until then enjoy the illusion.

Your choice. Your wish. Your karma. :)

Your gladness is illusory and temporary until old age and diseases catch up with you, as it surely will. Until then enjoy the illusion.

Yet the gladness of this supreme consciousness is real? You should already see the problem here. If every individual's gladness is illusory then how can the "ONE" eternal bliss be real? But even if I am the only one with the illusion, I will gladly take it over the eternal bliss that I, as an individual, will never expereince.

I will gladly forfeit my transcendence to remain ignorant "of who I really am".

One final point. If you want to remain this way knowing that this is a suffering (you may think that you are gladly ignorant, but truth is you are suffering), then that is what you will get. And don't be blaming God or denouncing that God is cruel or that God does not exist, when in fact your position is what you desired.

You always get what you wish for. :)

[edited - sorry, did not realise the you ARE the opening poster]

One final point. If you want to remain this way knowing that this is a suffering (you may think that you are gladly ignorant, but truth is you are suffering), then that is what you will get. This is not unlike the position of the opening poster. And don't be blaming God or denouncing that God is cruel or that God does not exist, when in fact your position is what you desired.

You always get what you wish for. :)

I am the original poster. And no, the position I hold on God is not what I desired, it is what I arrived at after years of contemplation and personal discovery.

I am the original poster. And no, the position I hold on God is not what I desired, it is what I arrived at after years of contemplation and personal discovery.

Well, what position you held before coming to this position?

You say you want to retain your "individuality" and you see no reason why you should worship a God/Supreme consciousness.

Is that not your inner desire too? Are you not taking your current body as self and are you not identifying yourself with it?

So you did get what you desired, no?

Well, what position you held before coming to this position?

You say you want to retain your "individuality" and you see no reason why you should worship a God/Supreme consciousness.

Is that not your inner desire too? Are you not taking your current body as self and are you not identifying yourself with it?

So you did get what you desired, no?

I was a Christian for quite a while before my current position. I have never been a proponent of any Eastern faith.

I was a Christian for quite a while before my current position. I have never been a proponent of any Eastern faith.

http://vedabase.net/

is a good resource for serious reading. You can start off with reading the Gita which has the answers to all your questions.

It may not mean much, but it answered all my questions. Made me a devotee from being an atheist and agnostic. Good luck.

Still, why do any "gods" demand and require worship? They are gods, why would they care?

Perhaps mankind has misinterpreted their messages from the beyond. Perhaps it was a need of respect, and to know that you should listen to them, but as generations past, they become more and more extreme.

I consider myself a satanist.now before I get ripped apart by uninformed people allow me to post a link
www.churchofsatan.com

http://vedabase.net/

is a good resource for serious reading. You can start off with reading the Gita which has the answers to all your questions.

It may not mean much, but it answered all my questions. Made me a devotee from being an atheist and agnostic. Good luck.


I have read many texts, including the Gita, but it did not appeal to me.

I have read many texts, including the Gita, but it did not appeal to me.

Did you read "Bhagvad Gita as it is" or some other commentary/translation ?

I don't have anything else to say except that to each his own. You have chosen your path in your free will. After all, this is the kaliyug and atheism is bound to increase. Cheers. :)

Can anyone show me a passage of the Bible where it says that God either demands worship or that it is somehow required by him. The second commandment doesnt count because God is not there demanding worship, but saying that if any worshiping is done, then it should be to him and not other God's.

Can anyone show me a passage of the Bible where it says that God either demands worship or that it is somehow required by him. The second commandment doesnt count because God is not there demanding worship, but saying that if any worshiping is done, then it should be to him and not other God's.How about Exodus 23:17-18 (not sure of which version you are using so may be alittle off)?

Actually I'm unaware of much else requiring worship except of individuals and for special events. But John 4:23-24 (KJV)("But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.") can be read in such a manner as to require "true believers" to to worship.

Can anyone show me a passage of the Bible where it says that God either demands worship or that it is somehow required by him. The second commandment doesnt count because God is not there demanding worship, but saying that if any worshiping is done, then it should be to him and not other God's.

In the New Testament Jesus continually tells people that "only through me can you reach heaven." This means that you must accept Christ as both God and you MUST believe that he is your saviour, or else you are removed from the Book of Life and thrown into the lake of fire.

In the New Testament Jesus continually tells people that "only through me can you reach heaven." This means that you must accept Christ as both God and you MUST believe that he is your saviour, or else you are removed from the Book of Life and thrown into the lake of fire.That is what has gotten you upset? This is a most peculiar thing to call worship, most of us think of worship as refering to those times when people all get together and pray or pray individually, not as merely believing in the diety. This is not a demand for belief, it a simple statement of the way the universe is structured, much like if I told you "after you pull the pin and release the spoon on a grenade, you should throw it away from you, to fail to throw it away will result in some parts of your body becoming very distant from other parts of your body". I do not demand that you throw the grenade away from you and do not threaten you with bodily harm if you fail to do so, I merely inform you that you should throw it and terrible things will happen to you if you don't.

If this is what you object to, what you are really objecting to is the nature of the universe. What kind of Being would create a universe in which belief in that Being were a requirement for spiritual enlightenment and in which lack of belief in that Being results in spiritual isolation? (depending on your breed of Christianity or montheism your "the Lake of Fire" is interperted differently, most use some form of spiritual isolation although some contemplate a place of torment.) It has been a while since I've reviewed Revelations but if I recall correctly the interpertation of several branchs of Christianity holds this is really a 2 step judging process, where by all those saved through belief in Christ and all are given a free pass and then the remainder of the dead are judged on their works (I am quite sure entry into the book of life is not related to faith).

Most do not view the Lake of Fire as spiritual isolation. If this were so very few people would fear Hell. I know that I wouldn't care less if I was spiritually isolated from God. I would welcome it actually.

That is what has gotten you upset? This is a most peculiar thing to call worship, most of us think of worship as refering to those times when people all get together and pray or pray individually, not as merely believing in the diety. This is not a demand for belief, it a simple statement of the way the universe is structured, much like if I told you "after you pull the pin and release the spoon on a grenade, you should throw it away from you, to fail to throw it away will result in some parts of your body becoming very distant from other parts of your body". I do not demand that you throw the grenade away from you and do not threaten you with bodily harm if you fail to do so, I merely inform you that you should throw it and terrible things will happen to you if you don't.


But in real life, God designed and manufactured the grenade, pulled the pin himself and put it in your hand. I don't see anything particularly loving about giving the advice to throw the grenade when the entire situation has been planned by God.

Most do not view the Lake of Fire as spiritual isolation. If this were so very few people would fear Hell. I know that I wouldn't care less if I was spiritually isolated from God. I would welcome it actually.Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, Hindus, Diests etc view the penalty for non-belief or failure-in-belief in whatever diety as being spiritual isolation, I am pretty certain this constitutes most. I am not certain that spiritual isolation from the divine presence would be so bad myself but I can imagine it would be something many would fear, the threat of isolation from the divine pressence seems to work quite well for Mormons in line. The mere fact that so many Hindus spend their lives dedicated to attaining oneness with the Godhead is a pretty good sign to me that there might be something to it.


But in real life, God designed and manufactured the grenade, pulled the pin himself and put it in your hand. I don't see anything particularly loving about giving the advice to throw the grenade when the entire situation has been planned by God. The loving part is that the grenade doesn't blow up right away and you do have a way to avoid being blasted by it, and you are even told how to avoid being blown up.

What you are complaining about is how the universe is constructed. You might as well ask what type of being would create a universe in which people have to eat to survive, or why not one in which people spring forth whole grown from the earth without the need for childhood or birth or sex?

For that matter, what type of being would create a universe in which all locations are not congruent? Certainly not a loving one, because in order to get to the kitchen I must get out of my chair and walk over 10 feet. A loving creator would have made a universe in which all locations were congruent, even though that means I would keep everyone up with my snoring.

The insecure kind.

The insecure kind.
Bwahahahahahaha.

I'm picturing God coming out of the closet some time soon. He's scared now because his believers somehow misinterpreted a bit so they don't like homosexuals

Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, Hindus, Diests etc view the penalty for non-belief or failure-in-belief in whatever diety as being spiritual isolation, I am pretty certain this constitutes most. I am not certain that spiritual isolation from the divine presence would be so bad myself but I can imagine it would be something many would fear, the threat of isolation from the divine pressence seems to work quite well for Mormons in line. The mere fact that so many Hindus spend their lives dedicated to attaining oneness with the Godhead is a pretty good sign to me that there might be something to it.


I cannot comment on others, but in Hindu beliefs there is no place which is "spiritual isolation". This is because we hold the hindu belief is that every soul is potentially divine and it is just a matter of the soul realising it. It does not matter where the soul is - material world or spiritual world or hellish worlds.

The Hindu's ultimate aim is to realise his self (not know, I know my self, but realising is much deeper than that) and liberate the self from the birth-death cycle and go back to the original position of oneness with the Supreme Godhead.

If you attain a lot of bad karma, by sinful activities, you just slip down from the most beneficial position of a human to an animal/plant (devolution :D) or possibly other worlds (woohoo!!). Earth is kinda the middle planet and below us are hellish worlds, not hell where you are eternally damned as per semitic beliefs. The scriptures say that one can redeem the self from lowly planets too albeit it will be harder in those circumstances. Above us are heavenly spiritual worlds, kinda like the semitic heavens, except that this too is temporary and not the ultimate goal since a partially realised soul can slip back from those worlds after the good karma is expended.

I cannot comment on others, but in Hindu beliefs there is no place which is "spiritual isolation". This is because we hold the hindu belief is that every soul is potentially divine and it is just a matter of the soul realising it. It does not matter where the soul is - material world or spiritual world or hellish worlds.

The Hindu's ultimate aim is to realise his self (not know, I know my self, but realising is much deeper than that) and liberate the self from the birth-death cycle and go back to the original position of oneness with the Supreme Godhead.

If you attain a lot of bad karma, by sinful activities, you just slip down from the most beneficial position of a human to an animal/plant (devolution :D) or possibly other worlds (woohoo!!). Earth is kinda the middle planet and below us are hellish worlds, not hell where you are eternally damned as per semitic beliefs. The scriptures say that one can redeem the self from lowly planets too albeit it will be harder in those circumstances. Above us are heavenly spiritual worlds, kinda like the semitic heavens, except that this too is temporary and not the ultimate goal since a partially realised soul can slip back from those worlds after the good karma is expended.


I must be in the hungry-ghost phase of the reincarnation hierarchy, because the tummy rumbles and there's nothing to eat at the house....

Most do not view the Lake of Fire as spiritual isolation. If this were so very few people would fear Hell. I know that I wouldn't care less if I was spiritually isolated from God. I would welcome it actually.



Actually, it doesn't work that way. God is the source of all things good, therefore to be apart from God is to be apart from any source of happiness, peace, etc. Everything around you would be inherently devoid of all things good and possessing only evil qualities, therefore it would be a place of immense suffering and regret.

I must be in the hungry-ghost phase of the reincarnation hierarchy, because the tummy rumbles and there's nothing to eat at the house....

lol..

Don't eat meat though. It is said that as per the karmic laws you will take the birth of the animal that you are eating.

"Thou shall not kill" - is for animals too ! :)

Actually, it doesn't work that way. God is the source of all things good, therefore to be apart from God is to be apart from any source of happiness, peace, etc. Everything around you would be inherently devoid of all things good and possessing only evil qualities, therefore it would be a place of immense suffering and regret.

God is also the source of all things evil, since he created everything.

I guess that means that if I am apart from god I'm inherently devoid of all things evil as well.

lol..

Don't eat meat though. It is said that as per the karmic laws you will take the birth of the animal that you are eating.

"Thou shall not kill" - is for animals too ! :)

Wait...

Isn't the cow the highest form of life in Hindu thought? So if I'm reincarnated into the animal I'm eating and that animal is a cow, why would I want to not eat a cheeseburger?

Doesn't make much sense to me.

God is also the source of all things evil, since he created everything.

I guess that means that if I am apart from god I'm inherently devoid of all things evil as well.

Maybe for some, but I wouldn't give God all the credit, we create as well, good and bad.

And if God is everywhere, how can one be devoid of Him (unless you become nothing) ???

Maybe for some, but I wouldn't give God all the credit, we create as well, good and bad.

And if God is everywhere, how can one be devoid of Him (unless you become nothing) ???

Unless, of course, he doesn't exist in the first place. Which is kind of what I was saying tongue-in-cheek in the post you quoted.

God is also the source of all things evil, since he created everything.

I guess that means that if I am apart from god I'm inherently devoid of all things evil as well.



Not exactly, his created beings used free will to create evil themselves. He is not the origin. Until we committed sins, there was no seperation from God. All were with God.

The total seperation from God is the ultimate evil.

Not exactly, his created beings used free will to create evil themselves. He is not the origin. Until we committed sins, there was no seperation from God. All were with God.

The total seperation from God is the ultimate evil.

So if we created something god cannot or did not, doesn't that make us gods too?

Oh, and as an aside... If god is omniscient, he knows evil when he sees it. He created Lucifer knowing what would happen. So humans didn't create the original evil, god did.

So if we created something god cannot or did not, doesn't that make us gods too?

Interestin question:

Either he created us with the ability to create something he himself CANNOT create - which would again contradict his omnipotence....
Or else he created evil himself, which kind of does away with his benevolence...

Interestin question:

Either he created us with the ability to create something he himself CANNOT create - which would again contradict his omnipotence....
Or else he created evil himself, which kind of does away with his benevolence...

Exactly so.

Interestin question:

Either he created us with the ability to create something he himself CANNOT create - which would again contradict his omnipotence....
Or else he created evil himself, which kind of does away with his benevolence...

But if a being worthy of being called God gave free will to his creations, they could do whatever they wanted...God merely created the agents, who freely chose their actions. That in and of itself does not constitute creating "evil".

But if a being worthy of being called God gave free will to his creations, they could do whatever they wanted...God merely created the agents, who freely chose their actions. That in and of itself does not constitute creating "evil".

Fine. If we humans created evil and evil is the antithesis of good, which god created, then we are equals of god.

Besides, we weren't given free will by god. Free will means self determination, yet god still calls the shots. Free will means that we decide how to live our lives, it doesn't mean that we get spanked by the celestial big daddy if we diverge from what he wants.

All of this is for the sake of argument anyway, since I don't believe there really is a god.

To those who believe, no amount of explaining is necessary. To those who do not, no amount of explaining will do.

And that goes both ways.

Fine. If we humans created evil and evil is the antithesis of good, which god created, then we are equals of god.

Besides, we weren't given free will by god. Free will means self determination, yet god still calls the shots. Free will means that we decide how to live our lives, it doesn't mean that we get spanked by the celestial big daddy if we diverge from what he wants.

All of this is for the sake of argument anyway, since I don't believe there really is a god.

What if you define evil as simply a perversion of good? Then it is akin to drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa, not the equivalent of creating a wonderful new painting.

And when is the last time anyone got spanked by a celestial big daddy?
Or do you mean him allowing you to choose to be separated from him and all that is good for eternity after you die? Sounds like free choice/free will/ultimate freedom to me...and isn't freedom a good thing?

17. When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"



Read it all, you'll be better for it. (http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html)

What if you define evil as simply a perversion of good? Then it is akin to drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa, not the equivalent of creating a wonderful new painting.

And when is the last time anyone got spanked by a celestial big daddy?
Or do you mean him allowing you to choose to be separated from him and all that is good for eternity after you die? Sounds like free choice/free will/ultimate freedom to me...and isn't freedom a good thing?

1. If that's the case then god created evil.

1b. Or, if you like, if we are able to take god's work and pervert it we are either (a) equals of god or (b) he is either not omnipotent, omniscient or omnibenevolent

2. I haven't. Because said celestial big daddy doesn't exist.

2b. For the sake of argument...

Assuming god exists. Free will only exists if we are allowed self-determination. Giving us two choices and telling us that we will be eternally punished for one of them is NOT free will. It's petty manipulation.

I cannot comment on others, but in Hindu beliefs there is no place which is "spiritual isolation". This is because we hold the hindu belief is that every soul is potentially divine and it is just a matter of the soul realising it. It does not matter where the soul is - material world or spiritual world or hellish worlds.

The Hindu's ultimate aim is to realise his self (not know, I know my self, but realising is much deeper than that) and liberate the self from the birth-death cycle and go back to the original position of oneness with the Supreme Godhead.

If you attain a lot of bad karma, by sinful activities, you just slip down from the most beneficial position of a human to an animal/plant (devolution :D) or possibly other worlds (woohoo!!). Earth is kinda the middle planet and below us are hellish worlds, not hell where you are eternally damned as per semitic beliefs. The scriptures say that one can redeem the self from lowly planets too albeit it will be harder in those circumstances. Above us are heavenly spiritual worlds, kinda like the semitic heavens, except that this too is temporary and not the ultimate goal since a partially realised soul can slip back from those worlds after the good karma is expended.short form:
I, and presumably you, at this point in the illusion called time are in a state of spiritual isolation, not part of the godhead. Hinduism provides paths (tools? directions?) by which a Hindu can overcome this state of spiritual isolation and return to the Godhead. What (basic) Hinduism does not contain, which I also did not mention, is the concept you seem to arguing against, is the belief that one's soul may become irreddemable, incapable of returning to the godhead. Fail to attain enlightment and one must remain in a state of spiritual isolation. (long form I lost due to being timed out, includes a digression on the theory that if a soul became ireddemable and did not return to the godhead that the cycles of existance would end and more extension on spiritual isolation as not being part of the godhead. I'm sure you can see it)

short form:
I, and presumably you, at this point in the illusion called time are in a state of spiritual isolation, not part of the godhead. Hinduism provides paths (tools? directions?) by which a Hindu can overcome this state of spiritual isolation and return to the Godhead. What (basic) Hinduism does not contain, which I also did not mention, is the concept you seem to arguing against, is the belief that one's soul may become irreddemable, incapable of returning to the godhead. Fail to attain enlightment and one must remain in a state of spiritual isolation. (long form I lost due to being timed out, includes a digression on the theory that if a soul became ireddemable and did not return to the godhead that the cycles of existance would end and more extension on spiritual isolation as not being part of the godhead. I'm sure you can see it)

To be honest, you have written it so complex, that I dunno what you are trying to say.

Wait for a day and I will start a threat on Hinduism, where we can discuss the theology and practices of Hinduism and its various sects and the nature and purpose of our life as said in the hindu scriptures.

A few clarifications though,

at this point in the illusion called time are in a state of spiritual isolation, not part of the godhead

It is said that the material world is an illusion but just because we are here does not mean that we are not part of Godhead. There are many self-realized yogis who have lived in this world who were also enlightened. Enlightenment is a state of mind, which does not depend where your physical body is. Jesus lived in flesh but he was an enlightened and self-realised yogi. Many such persons existed and do exist even today.

the belief that one's soul may become irreddemable, incapable of returning to the godhead.

Yes. Every soul is potentially divine and nobody is irredeemable.

What if one does not wish to "realise" his supposed divinity? I would prefer to remain as I am and unenlightened rather than attain my divinity as in Hinduism.

In the case of Hinduism, why am I seperated from the godhead anyway? There is no difference between the beginning and the end, so the who journey is meaningless.

What if one does not wish to "realise" his supposed divinity? I would prefer to remain as I am and unenlightened rather than attain my divinity as in Hinduism.

Depends on your karma. Supposedly, when you die you take birth as per your karma incurred in this birth. You can devolve to lower beings or even lower planets. You can still go to higher planets, if your deeds are good. You can be a gay atheist who curses God every waking moment, but if you feed the poor and such good things, you will incur good karma for that.



In the case of Hinduism, why am I seperated from the godhead anyway? There is no difference between the beginning and the end, so the who journey is meaningless.

Simple answer is - The individual soul (of you and me) is here due to its thinking that its false ego that the individual soul is itself God, forgetting its constitutional position that though it is qualitatively so, but not quantitatively so. I am loosely translating here since the English language has severe limitations compared to Sanskrit.

To explain this, I would have to get into the philosophy called "Achintya Bheda-abheda " (the mystery of simultaneous oneness and difference). If you can wait for a day, I can put up a post answering in a detailed way. Thanks.

To be honest, you have written it so complex, that I dunno what you are trying to say.
I've been trying to figure out why you say spiritual isolation is not a part of Hindu belief when I know it is, and I can come up with is that you are interperting the term too narowly. I used the term because it is a broad one, it can encompass a variety of states - from being "spiritually forsaken", as Neo Rotovia so nicely described, to being "spiritualy seperated" from the godhead. If I were speaking only of Hinduism, I would probably use terms like "spiritually disconnected" and "spiritually apart" to describe the relation of an embodied soul to the godhead, "spiritual isolation" not being the best term to describe it. Is this the case or is it something different?

I guess yes.

Isolation is too harsh a concept and since we hold that every soul is potentially divine, we are never isolated from Godhead. I agree that it depends how you look at it.

To put it in a mystical way,

How can we be isolated from something when we are it?

Its a comfort to people firstly to believe that there is someone 'up there', that life isn't meaningless. If something goes wrong its easier to blame someone else or put it down to the will of God....or God works in mysterious ways.
:D And if you want to be in a high position, with lots of potential to abuse your authority, make lots of financial gain..why not create a little God and say that it is gods will you can do what you want!? :D

How can we be isolated from something when we are it?
If I go to a party a house, I might find myself using the bathroom, while I am in the bathroom I am still part of the party while at the same time I am isolated from the party. This can come about because while I am part of the party, I am not the entiriety of the party.