NationStates Jolt Archive

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?

Good question that. I can't even begin to imagine.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?

Someone once said...

Imagine the ego of the human race, to consider itself so grand, as to warrant a creator worthy of praise.

I think that sums it up nicely.

Another funny quote while we wait for someone with an answer

Man is surely stark raving mad; he cannot create a flea, yet creates gods by the dozen

This is assuming that God is not a mere creation of man. If God were then any thing man could imagine or desire could be installed into a godlike figure. But still... why create something just to worship it? If man's ego is so great why does man not worship man then?

Your parents may not demand your respect, but because they are your parents and your elders, therefore they require and are worthy of respect.

It's the same logic for a god.

Well, assuming you're talking about Christian "god", you;d have to look to the bible for that answer. Man was created, so it says, so God didnt feel so lonely. Think about it, your an omnipotent being, but your the only one, no one else is there...i'd make some beings too to worship me. Or...they are all huge NS fans...

and if he created you, then you would assume he'd like some gratitude for it. It's not like he's asking for a virgin sacrifice or anything, just 10% of ur money and three hours on sundays...lol

Dragons Bay
I give my parents love and respect because they have earned it by doing well by me. I do not give elders respect just because they are elders. They earn it or they get nothing. The same goes for God. He has yet to do a damn thing if he is there.


Midget Carnies
Why not create freinds? But instead He creates servants in the Bible? Why?

Your parents may not demand your respect, but because they are your parents and your elders, therefore they require and are worthy of respect.

Why? Just because of their dumb luck to be born before you?

Besides, God isn't human, nor does he have human characteristics (in Judeo-Christian mythology.)

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?

Hope someone hasn't already said this, would feel like an ass.

But this reminds me of a quote by Nietzsche:

"I cannot believe in a God who demands to be constantly worshipped."

Coming from one of the most intelligent humans to ever grave our planet, I think that means something.

Perhaps God wants to be worshipped cuz he's lonely, or perhaps the founders of religion (they were human) realized the only way for Him to have any power would be if human followers fell to his feet.

"Was man one of God's mistakes? Or God one of man's?"

Your parents may not demand your respect, but because they are your parents and your elders, therefore they require and are worthy of respect.

It's the same logic for a god.
Taking that example to a biblical extreme:

My parents tells me I should eat my vegetables. They provide me with food, and I have very little choice in the matter. But I disagree on the vegetable bit. They serve gene modified vegetables, and I don't want to consume those. So I get a job as a paper boy & spend my money on food that I do want. It's a sensible diet & everything. Not much different from what my parents are offering at all.

Still, my loving parents throw a fit. They lock me in the dark dank cellar. Eventually they tell me "Son, if you love & honour us, you will eat your vegetables, and you will understand why we've locked you in the celler."

Though I probably will eat the vegetables soon, for fear of dying, I will never love them. To me they are pure, insane, bloodyminded evil

This is assuming that God is not a mere creation of man. If God were then any thing man could imagine or desire could be installed into a godlike figure. But still... why create something just to worship it? If man's ego is so great why does man not worship man then?


Man does worship man,'we are created in gods image' - can be seen as we ARE god.
Christians worship Jesus who was god in mans form andmuslims are as much about Mo as they are Allah.

Man worships man (not in a gay way like...or maybe.......)

He has yet to do a damn thing if he is there.

"But he gave you life. And he died for your sins. Your parents never did anything like that for you."

And...? Why do I have to worship a perfect being? Perfect beings don't need worship.

God is a needy violent absentee dad. Textbook codepency relationship. I'm sick of having to pray all the time just to lift God's low self-esteem. It's high time God got off his needy ass and acted like a man.

Hope someone hasn't already said this, would feel like an ass.

But this reminds me of a quote by Nietzsche:

"I cannot believe in a God who demands to be constantly worshipped."

Coming from one of the most intelligent humans to ever grave our planet, I think that means something.

Perhaps God wants to be worshipped cuz he's lonely, or perhaps the founders of religion (they were human) realized the only way for Him to have any power would be if human followers fell to his feet.

"Was man one of God's mistakes? Or God one of man's?"

Perhaps the last intelligent man on this planet?

Your parents may not demand your respect, but because they are your parents and your elders, therefore they require and are worthy of respect.

It's the same logic for a god.

Keep in mind there are a lot of North Americans on this board. They dont really believe in respecting elders.

God is a needy violent absentee dad. Textbook codepency relationship. I'm sick of having to pray all the time just to lift God's low self-esteem. It's high time God got off his needy ass and acted like a man.

Heh. Good to here from you again Gartref.

Eidalons, I'm really not one who can answer that, because I don;t know all of the answers to questions like these. HOwever, I can speculate based on how long i've been with this religion (by choice).To create friend would be to creat an equal, and you cannot force a friend or an equal to bend to your will, and if your familiar with the Bible stories at all, or at least some of the more famous ones, you will recall the story of Lucifer, the angel soon-to-be Satan who believed he could be God's equal, and how that ruined everything, how he made war against God, God whooped his ass, and tried something else.

Oh, and LazyHippies, I'm North American, although I'm in South Florida...and I for one, respect my elders, as a Navy recruit, shippin out in july!, I fully understand the importance and need for respecting elders and those in authoritative positions above me.

"But he gave you life. And he died for your sins. Your parents never did anything like that for you."

And you leave out: why did the thing make us mortal to begin with? Why did he make beings that sin?

"But he gave you life. And he died for your sins. Your parents never did anything like that for you."

And...? Why do I have to worship a perfect being? Perfect beings don't need worship.

Exactly. So why require it.

Taking that example to a biblical extreme:

My parents tells me I should eat my vegetables. They provide me with food, and I have very little choice in the matter. But I disagree on the vegetable bit. They serve gene modified vegetables, and I don't want to consume those. So I get a job as a paper boy & spend my money on food that I do want. It's a sensible diet & everything. Not much different from what my parents are offering at all.

Still, my loving parents throw a fit. They lock me in the dark dank cellar. Eventually they tell me "Son, if you love & honour us, you will eat your vegetables, and you will understand why we've locked you in the celler."

Though I probably will eat the vegetables soon, for fear of dying, I will never love them. To me they are pure, insane, bloodyminded evil

See? You chose to leave your parents, even though they provided you with good vegetables that are ultimately healthy for you. You're right. You've left God due to your sins.

Perhaps the last intelligent man on this planet?

Hell no. Nietzsche ain't got nothing on me!

I mean, I love the man dearly, but he went insane from seeing someone beat a horse. He couldn't even see that his existentialist doctrine was a form dogma in and of itself. And even if he were to be classified as a nihilist, he never got passed the stage of passive nihilism himself.

(Ok, I'm talking out of my ass, but I think your comment's overkill.)

To the question about beings with sin. He created us not as beings with sin. He didnt even create us with an actual knowledge of Good or evil. He created us in his own likeness, and we were the ones who gave in to mortal temptation, power, and greed.

And you leave out: why did the thing make us mortal to begin with? Why did he make beings that sin?

Boredom. (I love the theory that God died of boredom. It's pretty plausible, as far as mythology goes.)

Keep in mind there are a lot of North Americans on this board. They dont really believe in respecting elders.

Ha. That's your problem. A grave one indeed.

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?

By definition the Christian God is all powerful and all knowing (infinitely more knowing than man). On top of that, Christians believe that God created us in our entirety, and made us who we are. That includes our ability to reason and think things through. Heck, you might say (If you believe in God) that God created "reason" and "sense" but that could be debated.

So saying that anything about God doesn't make sense is.... I don't know, sort of meaningless. I'm not sure that's the right word.

Anyway, you always see both Christians and non Christians trying to use "sense" and "reason" to argue points. That God exists or doesn't exist. But I think you can only go so far with that. We can only see what's around us and reason with the reasoning ability that we have. There's no way of knowing if that is adequate to fully understand our "situation".

I think that's why faith is such an important aspect of Christianity- and maybe even Atheism to a lesser degree.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense.

See? You chose to leave your parents, even though they provided you with good vegetables that are ultimately healthy for you. You're right. You've left God due to your sins.
Does this quote make sense to you?

To the question about beings with sin. He created us not as beings with sin. He didnt even create us with an actual knowledge of Good or evil. He created us in his own likeness, and we were the ones who gave in to mortal temptation, power, and greed.

If we are in his own likeness, then that makes him sinful as well. Therefore, he is no better than humans. Therefore, he craves worship, but doesn't deserve it.

He either deserves worship (this point is arguable, but I won't bother with it) but doesn't need/want it, or he needs/wants worship but doesn't deserve it.

Does this quote make sense to you?

No, but I really want to quote it for my sig.

Ive never been sure of what "in his own likeness" meant, to be honest. A Pastor has never been able to tell me when asked, but I can speculate only on what it could mean. and to say that god is fallible, undermines the entire point of believing in God. When you say God is fallible, that means that everything is imperfect(im gonna stop because i sound like came out of that move Dogma.) and u destroy the entire basis of what faith really is.

Eidalons, I'm really not one who can answer that, because I don;t know all of the answers to questions like these. HOwever, I can speculate based on how long i've been with this religion (by choice).To create friend would be to creat an equal, and you cannot force a friend or an equal to bend to your will, and if your familiar with the Bible stories at all, or at least some of the more famous ones, you will recall the story of Lucifer, the angel soon-to-be Satan who believed he could be God's equal, and how that ruined everything, how he made war against God, God whooped his ass, and tried something else.

Oh, and LazyHippies, I'm North American, although I'm in South Florida...and I for one, respect my elders, as a Navy recruit, shippin out in july!, I fully understand the importance and need for respecting elders and those in authoritative positions above me.

Surprisingly, all the texts mentioning Lucifer and Satan, that are not fiction or theory, seem to have nothing about Lucifer demanding worship. In fact his fall from grace seems to be because he refused to bow to god. Of all the figures in popular religion, he seems to be the most rational one.

Boredom. (I love the theory that God died of boredom. It's pretty plausible, as far as mythology goes.)
I love how even atheists can explain a god's motivations. Lends so much credibility to atheism, yet so little to mankind :p

But assuming there was a god, I think you'd be wrong. Imagine how insignificant our lifespans would be to such a being. If it was truely boredom, I think he would have made us to live at least around 100000 years. Anything less wouldn't really give such a being time to enjoy playing with us.

Does this quote make sense to you?

Yes.

Your parents are perfect. Your parents are always right. They gave you the best vegetables, but also gave you the choice to leave and find your own vegetables, even though they are nothing compared to what they offer you. You chose to leave the family to forge for your own vegetables. YOU chose to leave. They didn't throw you out.

No, but I really want to quote it for my sig.
Hah! Feel free my friend :p

Ive never been sure of what "in his own likeness" meant, to be honest. A Pastor has never been able to tell me when asked, but I can speculate only on what it could mean. and to say that god is fallible, undermines the entire point of believing in God. When you say God is fallible, that means that everything is imperfect(im gonna stop because i sound like came out of that move Dogma.) and u destroy the entire basis of what faith really is.

So you avoid thinking too much because it destroys your personal faith?

Ech, Lucifer's motivation was that he believed he was God's EQUAL. That is why he believed he should not bow to god, he believed he could BE god. That is where is folly lay. Now, i donno bout you guys, but I;d rather not be God, too much pressure.

Surprisingly, all the texts mentioning Lucifer and Satan, that are not fiction or theory, seem to have nothing about Lucifer demanding worship. In fact his fall from grace seems to be because he refused to bow to god. Of all the figures in popular religion, he seems to be the most rational one.

And he didn't lose to God, because Christian mythology says he's still around. So you know, that means God isn't omnipotent... but I'm thinking too much, and I should stop, because thinking makes me uncomfortable.

As Christ was supposed to say somewhere that I cannot be bothered to look up, man was not made for the sabbath, the sabbath was made for man. The purpose of worship is not to bring the Divine closer to you, but to bring you closer to the Divine. If you are having difficulty, your worsip is for your benifit.

Yes.

Your parents are perfect. Your parents are always right. They gave you the best vegetables, but also gave you the choice to leave and find your own vegetables, even though they are nothing compared to what they offer you. You chose to leave the family to forge for your own vegetables. YOU chose to leave. They didn't throw you out.
Oh, I see what you mean now. I should have put the bit about them locking me up in the cellar in bold. Also, you do understand it was a thought example, right?

Saipea, I never said i didn't think. Questioning faith only makes it stronger when you come out of it with the same idea. I never said dont question it, but I'll give you an example of overcomplicating a problem. My aunt just moved to China, I'm worried about all kinds of things that could happen to her and her three kids. But im trusting that God will take care of her and that whatever happens will happen, thinking about so many different scenarios and why stuff will happen just makes it that more complicated.

Ech, Lucifer's motivation was that he believed he was God's EQUAL. That is why he believed he should not bow to god, he believed he could BE god. That is where is folly lay. Now, i donno bout you guys, but I;d rather not be God, too much pressure.

I'd like to be God. I'd make everyone else gods. Then we could all chill together.

Hell no. Nietzsche ain't got nothing on me!

I mean, I love the man dearly, but he went insane from seeing someone beat a horse. He couldn't even see that his existentialist doctrine was a form dogma in and of itself. And even if he were to be classified as a nihilist, he never got passed the stage of passive nihilism himself.

(Ok, I'm talking out of my ass, but I think your comment's overkill.)

No actually it is a comment on the lack of credible philosophers and their mainstream effects in the world.

But I am nearly sincere here, there is a passage in one of his books (one of his many short quips possibly in Twilight of the Idols or the Antichrist) which states:
"how tragic is the ass, its burden is too much too carry yet it cannot stop and throw it off. The same for the philsopoher?"

And of course Neitsche could not carry the burden and it drove him insane.

Oh, I see what you mean now. I should have put the bit about them locking me up in the cellar in bold. Also, you do understand it was a thought example, right?

I don't think he understands why genetically engineered produce isn't as good as organic.

No actually it is a comment on the lack of credible philosophers and their mainstream effects in the world.

But I am nearly sincere here, there is a passage in one of his books (one of his many short quips possibly in Twilight of the Idols or the Antichrist) which states:
"how tragic is the ass, its burden is too much too carry yet it cannot stop and throw it off. The same for the philsopoher?"

And of course Neitsche could not carry the burden and it drove him insane.

The poor guy. :(
I'll admit, I'm not as well read on Nietzsche as a claim to be, but still, I think he can be pretty overrated in intellectual groups, myself once being a Nietzsche groupie.

Oh, I see what you mean now. I should have put the bit about them locking me up in the cellar in bold. Also, you do understand it was a thought example, right?

Not true. There's a price to pay for everything. You may feel locked up in that little house eating vegetables with your restrictive parents, but your parents will love and protect you and give you whatever that is the best. But you choose to go out and find your own vegetables, and by leaving the house you are subject to dangers and temptations of other vegetables that seem good but is nothing compared to what your parents give you.

However, if you get sick of that lifestyle, your parents will always welcome you back into the house.

At the end of the day, it's your choice. Your choice. There's no other democracy like God's democracy - only that you will have to bear the fruits of your choice at the end.

I'd like to be God. I'd make everyone else gods. Then we could all chill together.
You've got my vote... If only I knew where to deliver it :confused:

Hah! Feel free my friend :p

No, that would be cruel. I'm just going to make a signature about catgirl porn.

And of course Neitsche could not carry the burden and it drove him insane.

He would be honored that we found a bit of tragedy in his death :)

He would be honored that we found a bit of tragedy in his death :)

More than a bit. Especially for me... I am a philosopher and I tend to agree with quite a bit of Nietsche. My future is looking very dim... :(

Not true. There's a price to pay for everything. You may feel locked up in that little house eating vegetables with your restrictive parents, but your parents will love and protect you and give you whatever that is the best. But you choose to go out and find your own vegetables, and by leaving the house you are subject to dangers and temptations of other vegetables that seem good but is nothing compared to what your parents give you.

However, if you get sick of that lifestyle, your parents will always welcome you back into the house.

At the end of the day, it's your choice. Your choice. There's no other democracy like God's democracy - only that you will have to bear the fruits of your choice at the end.

And responding to your bit about the cellar. Your parents don't drag you in and put you in the cellar. You are just left to the world until it decays into nothing. That's much worse than the cellar.

Not true. There's a price to pay for everything. You may feel locked up in that little house eating vegetables with your restrictive parents, but your parents will love and protect you and give you whatever that is the best. But you choose to go out and find your own vegetables, and by leaving the house you are subject to dangers and temptations of other vegetables that seem good but is nothing compared to what your parents give you.

However, if you get sick of that lifestyle, your parents will always welcome you back into the house.
Ok, here's what I was trying to say with my thought example:
1. Parents force a kid to do something that is detrimental to others
2. Kids says "Parents, look! I found a way to do what you want, but in a way that doesn't harm anyone"
3. Parents respond with confining the child, and torturing it, untill it repends, tells the parents that it loves then, and go back to doing something that the child knows is wrong

I hope you understand it this time. Otherwise, just let it go. I can't be anymore clear about it.

So let me get this right dragons bay... worship God and get heaven, or refuse and be condemned to hell... some democracy God has operating. An ogre's choice is no choice at all.

More than a bit. Especially for me... I am a philosopher and I tend to agree with quite a bit of Nietsche. My future is looking very dim... :(

Have heard this quote from him? It always cheers me up at the right moment:

"What if a demon crept after you one day or night in your loneliest solitude and said to you: 'This life, as you live it now and have lived it, you will have to live again and again, times without number; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and all the unspeakably small and great in your life must return to you, and everything in the same series and sequence... The eternal hour-glass of existence will be turned again and again-and you with it, you dust of dust!'-Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who thus spoke? Or have you experienced a tremendous moment in which you answered him: 'You are a god and never did I hear anything more divine!'"

Yes.

Your parents are perfect. Your parents are always right. They gave you the best vegetables, but also gave you the choice to leave and find your own vegetables, even though they are nothing compared to what they offer you. You chose to leave the family to forge for your own vegetables. YOU chose to leave. They didn't throw you out.
What? My parents are God?! Ok now you've really confused me. If my parents are God, how come all that crap about not being able to afford a pony....surely God can afford one darn pony....heck if push comes to shove they could just have created me a pony, as for all the nonsense about needing a paddock for the pony, I hear the Garden of Eden is uninhabited....I feel completely ripped off now!

Ok, here's what I was trying to say with my thought example:
1. Parents force a kid to do something that is detrimental to others
2. Kids says "Parents, look! I found a way to do what you want, but in a way that doesn't harm anyone"
3. Parents respond with confining the child, and torturing it, untill it repends, tells the parents that it loves then, and go back to doing something that the child knows is wrong

I hope you understand it this time. Otherwise, just let it go. I can't be anymore clear about it.

I understand you completely. But I'm trying to tell you that you've got the analogy completely wrong on the first step because God doesn't ask you to do anything detrimental to others.

It is your choice to leave God. God doesn't like it, but He allows you to it until you find your way back.

Not true. There's a price to pay for everything. You may feel locked up in that little house eating vegetables with your restrictive parents, but your parents will love and protect you and give you whatever that is the best. But you choose to go out and find your own vegetables, and by leaving the house you are subject to dangers and temptations of other vegetables that seem good but is nothing compared to what your parents give you.

However, if you get sick of that lifestyle, your parents will always welcome you back into the house.

At the end of the day, it's your choice. Your choice. There's no other democracy like God's democracy - only that you will have to bear the fruits of your choice at the end.

I'm sorry, this is just way too saccharin. So I'm going to have to simply go straight for the jugular:

Don't you think your statements are a bit hypocritical? I mean, basically, you're the one who doesn't respect your ancestors and your heritage… all you are is the product of the successful prostheletizing of missionaries. You're the one who strayed from the path of tradition and religion.

So that's why I have deja vu? Damn demon.

What? My parents are God?! Ok now you've really confused me. If my parents are God, how come all that crap about not being able to afford a pony....surely God can afford one darn pony....heck if push comes to shove they could just have created me a pony, as for all the nonsense about needing a paddock for the pony, I hear the Garden of Eden is uninhabited....I feel completely ripped off now!

I didn't start the analogy.

What? My parents are God?! Ok now you've really confused me. If my parents are God, how come all that crap about not being able to afford a pony....surely God can afford one darn pony....heck if push comes to shove they could just have created me a pony, as for all the nonsense about needing a paddock for the pony, I hear the Garden of Eden is uninhabited....I feel completely ripped off now!

Shut up and eat your vegetables, cellar-boy.

I'm sorry, this is just way too saccharin. So I'm going to have to simply go straight for the jugular:

Don't you think your statements are a bit hypocritical? I mean, basically, you're the one who doesn't respect your ancestors and your heritage… all you are is the product of the successful prostheletizing of missionaries. You're the one who strayed from the path of tradition and religion.

You've completely lost me there. What are you talking about?

You've completely lost me there. What are you talking about?

I'm alluding to the fact that you're a Chinese Protestant.

The most despicable and deplorable thing is non-Western Christians. Some respect for your roots, eh?

Nearly every major religion is dominated by a god that demands worship. But in the case of such gods as the Christian God, gods that are supposed to be omnibenevolent or at least predominantly benovelent, it makes no sense that worship of the god is required. Especially when the punishment for non-worship is a cruel and utterly evil eternal condemnation to Hell, regardless of how well one lives their lives.

But aside from all of this the main problem still remains... why does any bieng require worship?



Because, Perfection Incarnate deserves nothing less than total adoration and praise. Is it selfishness for Holiness to deserve worship? No! On the contrary, to deny it such would be the most cardinal of sins. To refuse to love and adore that which is omnibenevolent is equal to loving that which is wicked and evil. He gave us life, love, hope, joy, peace that passes understanding, and the list goes on. He should be loved to our fullest extents! He is infinitely superior to us in all ways! We are mere mortals; creations capable of the greatest of injustices and depravity. God is free of sin, free from the blight of wrong.

God loved us so much that, even though we were utterly wicked, He died to purify us.


John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.




God is incapable of evil. Evil is injustice. A crime against Eternal Perfection is itself eternally wicked. No matter how "good" we say we live our lives, the slightest act of evil far outweighs it. The imperfect creation cannot hope to dwell with the Perfect Creator. God must seperate those from Himself who refuse to accept Him and His sacrifice. It is justice supreme.

GOD: I give you free will.
You Can't do that.
You Can't do that.
You Can't do that.
Beginning to get the picture yet?

Keep in mind there are a lot of North Americans on this board. They dont really believe in respecting elders.


Respect for elders is a universal virtue, as they who are older have great experience and will most likely have wisdom gained from it.

I didn't start the analogy.
Actually you did.

Evidently needing to be worshipped is an imperfection, most particularly when having your need frustrated causes you to visit unholy hell on all those who failed to fufill that need.

I'm alluding to the fact that you're a Chinese Protestant.

Oh ho ho. I still have a lot of respect for my elders. I still learn a lot from them. Just that I don't worship them because they are only dead sinners.

Because, Perfection Incarnate deserves nothing less than total adoration and praise. Is it selfishness for Holiness to deserve worship? No! On the contrary, to deny it such would be the most cardinal of sins. To refuse to love and adore that which is omnibenevolent is equal to loving that which is wicked and evil. He gave us life, love, hope, joy, peace that passes understanding, and the list goes on. He should be loved to our fullest extents! He is infinitely superior to us in all ways! We are mere mortals; creations capable of the greatest of injustices and depravity. God is free of sin, free from the blight of wrong.

God loved us so much that, even though we were utterly wicked, He died to purify us.


John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.




God is incapable of evil. Evil is injustice. A crime against Eternal Perfection is itself eternally wicked. No matter how "good" we say we live our lives, the slightest act of evil far outweighs it. The imperfect creation cannot hope to dwell with the Perfect Creator. God must seperate those from Himself who refuse to accept Him and His sacrifice. It is justice supreme.


And in so doing god commits sin himself. If you read the Bible you will have actually noticed that God has thrown so many fits that he is nothing more than a squabling child with an uzi. Please, let's take the uzi away. No more pillars of fire, or salt, or plagues, or famines, or...

GOD: I give you free will.
You Can't do that.
You Can't do that.
You Can't do that.
Beginning to get the picture yet?

No. It's

GOD:
You can't do that.
You can't do that.
You can't do that.
You can't do that.

But I give you free will. But before you go I remind you that if you leave Me you will suffer from yourself.

And then you leave.

GOD: I give you free will.
You Can't do that.
You Can't do that.
You Can't do that.
Beginning to get the picture yet?

Quite.
Not really perfect behaviour for an allegedly perfect creature...

I didn't start the analogy.
Yes you did, but at the moment, I'd be more than pleased to let it die. It's quite difficult to discuss something via analogies when we disagree on the basis for it.

God didn't ask us to do stuff that's detrimental to others? Alright then. Explain the bit about the Christian god being a homophobe again, please?

Hope someone hasn't already said this, would feel like an ass.

But this reminds me of a quote by Nietzsche:

"I cannot believe in a God who demands to be constantly worshipped."

Coming from one of the most intelligent humans to ever grave our planet, I think that means something.

Perhaps God wants to be worshipped cuz he's lonely, or perhaps the founders of religion (they were human) realized the only way for Him to have any power would be if human followers fell to his feet.

"Was man one of God's mistakes? Or God one of man's?"



Nietzsche? One of the most intelligent humans? *giggle*


You are believing falsehoods. You do not understand the Christian God, you do not understand why He deserves worship. Why question religion when you have no read its texts? I'm presuming you haven't, because your statements seem to indicate such.

Because, Perfection Incarnate deserves nothing less than total adoration and praise. Is it selfishness for Holiness to deserve worship? No! On the contrary, to deny it such would be the most cardinal of sins. To refuse to love and adore that which is omnibenevolent is equal to loving that which is wicked and evil. He gave us life, love, hope, joy, peace that passes understanding, and the list goes on. He should be loved to our fullest extents! He is infinitely superior to us in all ways! We are mere mortals; creations capable of the greatest of injustices and depravity. God is free of sin, free from the blight of wrong.

God loved us so much that, even though we were utterly wicked, He died to purify us.


John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.




God is incapable of evil. Evil is injustice. A crime against Eternal Perfection is itself eternally wicked. No matter how "good" we say we live our lives, the slightest act of evil far outweighs it. The imperfect creation cannot hope to dwell with the Perfect Creator. God must seperate those from Himself who refuse to accept Him and His sacrifice. It is justice supreme.

Circular logic from beginning to end. Go back to sketching unicorns.

Respect for elders is a universal virtue, as they who are older have great experience and will most likely have wisdom gained from it.

*looks at her grandparents who still keep telling her what a great guy Hitler was...

I somehow doubt the "wisdom" part. :rolleyes:

No. It's

GOD:
You can't do that.
You can't do that.
You can't do that.
You can't do that.

But I give you free will. But before you go I remind you that if you leave Me you will suffer from yourself.

And then you leave.

And the difference is? You have free will but cannot excerise it because, if you read an earlier post, an ogre's choice is no choice at all. And that is the only choice he gives.

Yes you did, but at the moment, I'd be more than pleased to let it die. It's quite difficult to discuss something via analogies when we disagree on the basis for it.
Fair enough.

God didn't ask us to do stuff that's detrimental to others? Alright then. Explain the bit about the Christian god being a homophobe again, please?
But the Christian God isn't a homophobe....

And the difference is? You have free will but cannot excerise it because, if you read an earlier post, an ogre's choice is no choice at all. And that is the only choice he gives.

What do you mean no choice?

The choice is between "you restrict yourself today, and you get glory tomorrow" and "you let yourself wild today, and you suffer tomorrow".

Nietzsche? One of the most intelligent humans? *giggle*


You are believing falsehoods. You do not understand the Christian God, you do not understand why He deserves worship. Why question religion when you have no read its texts? I'm presuming you haven't, because your statements seem to indicate such.

You're statements seem to indicate you don't read.

EDIT: *giggle*

Nietzsche? One of the most intelligent humans? *giggle*


You are believing falsehoods. You do not understand the Christian God, you do not understand why He deserves worship. Why question religion when you have no read its texts? I'm presuming you haven't, because your statements seem to indicate such.

You assume because I refuse your precious God that I have no knowledge of the Bible? Quite an assumption, considering that I have studied it my entire life and have found its Holy Word less than holy.

Oh ho ho. I still have a lot of respect for my elders. I still learn a lot from them. Just that I don't worship them because they are only dead sinners.

I don't know why I bother. I can't force you to think.

Nietzsche? One of the most intelligent humans? *giggle*


You are believing falsehoods. You do not understand the Christian God, you do not understand why He deserves worship. Why question religion when you have no read its texts? I'm presuming you haven't, because your statements seem to indicate such.

You don't respect Nietzsche and you haven't even read him...
And yes, I've read your precious scriptures but I've also read history

What do you mean no choice?

The choice is between "you restrict yourself today, and you get glory tomorrow" and "you let yourself wild today, and you suffer tomorrow".

Worship - Heaven
Freedom- Hell...

hmmm, didn't know freedom was letting myself go wild.

You assume because I refuse your precious God that I have no knowledge of the Bible? Quite an assumption, considering that I have studied it my entire life and have found its Holy Word less than holy.

Some people can indeed study the Bible and get nothing out of it, like the Pharisees in the times of Christ.

You cannot understand the words of God merely by your five senses and your own intelligence. You will only understand God with your soul. It's not that you don't have one, but if you don't believe there is one, then how is it going to help you understand God?

But I give you free will. But before you go I remind you that if you leave Me you will suffer from yourself.

Ya. That's pure egoism. That's a complete asshole and a total loser. God seems to have a huge inferiority complex and can't stand being left alone. He's a glory hog, a knowledge whore, and manic depressive sociopath that goes on random sprees of killing people. Besides that, he can't seem to make his mind on basic things. At least, that's your God and your mythology, or at least the one you were taught to believe.

Worship - Heaven
Freedom- Hell...

hmmm, didn't know freedom was letting myself go wild.

Well, freedom doesn't immediately lead to Hell. I'm sorry I gave that impression. But usually freedom leads to deviation from God's words, thus letting yourself go wild of God. You also have the freedom to worship God of course.

So it's really:

FREEDOM - to worship, thus Heaven
FREEDOM - to sin, thus Hell.

No. It's

GOD:
You can't do that.
You can't do that.
You can't do that.
You can't do that.

But I give you free will. But before you go I remind you that if you leave Me you will suffer from yourself.

And then you leave.
According to most Christians, it's impossible for us humans not to sin. So what he did was actually to send us to hell, unless we apologise for not living up to an impossible standard. One he set, and one he made us unable to live up to...

And then there's that thing about worthshipping something because it's perfect and deserves it...

Honestly, if Christianity makes you happy, it's all good. But you have to admit it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Some people can indeed study the Bible and get nothing out of it, like the Pharisees in the times of Christ.

You cannot understand the words of God merely by your five senses and your own intelligence. You will only understand God with your soul. It's not that you don't have one, but if you don't believe there is one, then how is it going to help you understand God?

Not believing in God does not mean I do not believe in a soul or an equivalent entity in myself. I have continually tried to understand God, but even when I believed, I found it impossible. And not because of his divinity. But because of his childish attitudes and inherent cruelty.

Some people can indeed study the Bible and get nothing out of it, like the Pharisees in the times of Christ.

You cannot understand the words of God merely by your five senses and your own intelligence. You will only understand God with your soul. It's not that you don't have one, but if you don't believe there is one, then how is it going to help you understand God?

wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that those who are not predetermined to find only the positive in the bible can see it in a more objective light? Believe it or not, most of what I read in there wasn't very benevolent at all...

Ya. That's pure egoism. That's a complete asshole and a total loser. God seems to have a huge inferiority complex and can't stand being left alone. He's a glory hog, a knowledge whore, and manic depressive sociopath that goes on random sprees of killing people. Besides that, he can't seem to make his mind on basic things. At least, that's your God and your mythology, or at least the one you were taught to believe.

God isn't God for nothing. He's automatically worthy of respect and worship BECAUSE He is God.

I find interesting that though this topic should be flamebait, this discussion is generally well mannered, lol. ANyways, back tot he discussion at hand. AT this point, people are going to believe what they believe, and rarely will it change. Eidolans I do thank you, because youve raised some questions in my mind that I will ask my pastor if he knows the answer or knows someone who does. Mind if I post atopic later when I get the answer for ya?

The scriptures do say "god is a jealous god" but do not judge him for it, for how can we judge someone who created soemthing as grandiose and as perfect as the universe and all thats in it. I challenge of you to create a human being (NOT INCLUDING SEX) out of nothing. Do it, go on. Thats right, you can't. leave god a lone.

Some people can indeed study the Bible and get nothing out of it, like the Pharisees in the times of Christ.

You cannot understand the words of God merely by your five senses and your own intelligence. You will only understand God with your soul. It's not that you don't have one, but if you don't believe there is one, then how is it going to help you understand God?

"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire."

The Bible is not as deep as you make it out to be, merely obscure. I've found much more enlightening and healthy alternatives for my soul than an eternity with that God.

God isn't God for nothing. He's automatically worthy of respect and worship BECAUSE He is God.

Just Because is not a good reason for anything.
God has to earn respect.

But the Christian God isn't a homophobe....
According to you or a random copy of the bible?

According to most Christians, it's impossible for us humans not to sin. So what he did was actually to send us to hell, unless we apologise for not living up to an impossible standard. One he set, and one he made us unable to live up to...
If you were brought up by sinners, it is quite likely you are going to sin. Satan wastes no time in tempting people to sin. But God wants you to first grow up and learn more of His word before you return to Him. That's why people are never born Christians.

And then there's that thing about worthshipping something because it's perfect and deserves it...

Honestly, if Christianity makes you happy, it's all good. But you have to admit it doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you understand it then it makes a lot of sense. It's true for all knowledge.

God isn't God for nothing. He's automatically worthy of respect and worship BECAUSE He is God.

So - whatever he does - killing people, torturing them, treating them unjustly, judging them to impossible standards, messing with them in any way possible - every act of hate on his part would still mean we have to love him? Boy, that's masochistic...

Not believing in God does not mean I do not believe in a soul or an equivalent entity in myself. I have continually tried to understand God, but even when I believed, I found it impossible. And not because of his divinity. But because of his childish attitudes and inherent cruelty.

It would be good if you send me a telegram to explain further.

According to most Christians, it's impossible for us humans not to sin. So what he did was actually to send us to hell, unless we apologise for not living up to an impossible standard. One he set, and one he made us unable to live up to...

And then there's that thing about worthshipping something because it's perfect and deserves it...

Honestly, if Christianity makes you happy, it's all good. But you have to admit it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I know an intellectual Christian (I think he's Quaker or something) that noted that Christianity is a pretty negative religion, and if anything, it has the most in common with nihilism. Kind of romantic thinking to associate the two, I suppose, but nihilism and fantasy is a pretty volatile concoction that doesn't really float my boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragons Bay
But the Christian God isn't a homophobe....


According to you or a random copy of the bible?


It cleaaaaaaaarly states in the Bible, that God loves the sinner and hates the sin.Yes that includes Hitler, Bush, Charles Manson and Jimmy Carter.

I find interesting that though this topic should be flamebait, this discussion is generally well mannered, lol. ANyways, back tot he discussion at hand. AT this point, people are going to believe what they believe, and rarely will it change. Eidolans I do thank you, because youve raised some questions in my mind that I will ask my pastor if he knows the answer or knows someone who does. Mind if I post atopic later when I get the answer for ya?

The scriptures do say "god is a jealous god" but do not judge him for it, for how can we judge someone who created soemthing as grandiose and as perfect as the universe and all thats in it. I challenge of you to create a human being (NOT INCLUDING SEX) out of nothing. Do it, go on. Thats right, you can't. leave god a lone.

Post the link to the topic here too so I can easily find it. But sure go ahead. And this wasn't meant as flamebait, but as honest discussion so refine ideas and get new ones as well.

"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire."

The Bible is not as deep as you make it out to be, merely obscure. I've found much more enlightening and healthy alternatives for my soul than an eternity with that God.

Brillaint quote. God can balance both ways. You first have to believe in God for the peace of soul and joy (not merely pleasure), and then devote yourself to finding the Truth by inquiring. God will provide you with the answers.

Just Because is not a good reason for anything.
God has to earn respect.

Well, He did make you and then die for your salvation.

Hitler, Bush, Charles Manson and Jimmy Carter.

And Jimmy Carter is included in that string of mental cases...why?

Brillaint quote. God can balance both ways. You first have to believe in God for the peace of soul and joy (not merely pleasure), and then devote yourself to finding the Truth by inquiring. God will provide you with the answers.

I happen to believe that the truth will bring peace of soul and joy, not the other way around.

God will provide you with the answers.

Indeed brotha, Seek and Ye Shall Find. Knock and the Door shall be opened

Well, He did make you and then die for your salvation.

God is dead?

According to you or a random copy of the bible?
A random copy of the Bible. If you can show me where in the Bible that God hates homosexuals, I'll give you a chocolate chip cookie and then explain to you.

God is dead?

Well, Nietzsche says so..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midget Carnies
Hitler, Bush, Charles Manson and Jimmy Carter.



Uhuh. And Jimmy Carter is included... why?

umm...cuz...seeing who else was paying attention. Notice u didnt ask about Bush, lol...oh, he loves richard simmons too

Well, He did make you and then die for your salvation.

one thing i hate is that you damn people all say God Died for us. if he is dead then he is not a god!

I happen to believe that the truth will bring peace of soul and joy, not the other way around.

Well, whatever the order. God offers all of that.

It would be good if you send me a telegram to explain further.

I will try later, but here are some quick points: Sodom and Gamorah (specifically Lot's wife being turned into salt merely for looking back at her home) the many plagues and deaths inflicted upon Egypt in Genesis/Exodus, the pain and torture he allowed to be inflicted upon Job and petty reply to Job's anger, and of course the horror that is the end times.

Boy, that's masochistic...

Christianity is filled with masochism. It's pretty funny, actually.

Watch "Passion of the Christ" while listening to "Beat It."

Brillaint quote. God can balance both ways. You first have to believe in God for the peace of soul and joy (not merely pleasure), and then devote yourself to finding the Truth by inquiring. God will provide you with the answers.

This is an either/or situtation. read Sartre. You can't have both.
I've gotten my answers from reading, not God.

im just wondering why the term god is being banded about so freely im sure in the bible it states dont take his name in vain so sod it im gonna turn it around a bit the word god i belive is a mistake i mean what deity would wisely give out his name personaly id still be classified so no person could wake me on a sunday mornin calling for aid lol,
then again if you reverse the word god you end up with dog ? strange that in egyption culture the dog is a lord of the underworld and death... so ill stick to my term for him/her/it an that is the great yin
the bible (no disrespect) was penned by man so as a getout clause becouse man is not by any means perfect it means the bible is flawed thats why its so full of mistakes that cause arguments hate an other lil bumps in the rug of life, thus i have to stay an aithest but follow the rules i see fit to deem required by my moral standard an worshep the great yin aka god etc etc... thrugh deed and action instead of that evilest of evils money (most common thing people kill and die for *when satan/lucifer/beilzibub/etc..etc was cast down from heaven he said i shall return and you all shall love me no coincidence in my mind*) and not only that my way gives me a few extra hours on sunday for a lay in lol
take care peeps il be back in a jiffy

one thing i hate is that you damn people all say God Died for us. if he is dead then he is not a god!

No no. He's still alive. That was his son. But there's only one God, so it's his corporeal manifestation. Which means he's a motherfucker (and an adulterer at that). But that's besides the point. Try not to think to much, because, as most of these posters have admitted, it makes you lose faith.

God is dead?
No. God is not dead. I just didn't outline the entire story of Easter. Do I need to?

im just wondering why the term god is being banded about so freely im sure in the bible it states dont take his name in vain so sod it im gonna turn it around a bit the word god i belive is a mistake i mean what deity would wisely give out his name personaly id still be classified so no person could wake me on a sunday mornin calling for aid lol,....

Because "god" is not his name. It's merely a job description... :rolleyes:

Circular logic from beginning to end. Go back to sketching unicorns.



Umm...no. Perfection is that which is incorrupt and undefiled. It is pure love and pure justice. God helps those who are in need and call on His name, and punishes those who are oppressive and refuse to associate with Him. Pure love is deserving of worship by its very nature. It is an inherent quality.



Premise: God is perfectly just, he punishes the wicked and rewards the good.


It is evidenced in the scriptures that His necessity to maintain benevolence is fulfilled wherein he condemns the evil and saves the righteous. Accepting His sacrifice for your sin and striving to adhere to his law will be rewarded. Refusing his sacrifice and living a life of evil will be punished.


Therefore, God can be said to be the Perfect Agent of Justice.


Adoration is to be directed towards that which is good. Hence, all the virtues, though namely love comes to mind, are to be adored. God perfects Himself in that He is perfectly just, ergo He is deserving of total adoration.

Therefore, a Holy God is deserving of nothing less than full devotion and worship.

one thing i hate is that you damn people all say God Died for us. if he is dead then he is not a god!

Ach you misunderstand the God dying story. Actually read it next time. He manifests himself in human form, and die sin such form as to take all the sin upon himself, as a manifest from of part of the holy trinity. In doing so he sacrifices a part of his self, cleansing sin should you repent for it etc etc.

I will try later, but here are some quick points: Sodom and Gamorah (specifically Lot's wife being turned into salt merely for looking back at her home) the many plagues and deaths inflicted upon Egypt in Genesis/Exodus, the pain and torture he allowed to be inflicted upon Job and petty reply to Job's anger, and of course the horror that is the end times.

I'll answer in detail in your telegram?

Indeed brotha, Seek and Ye Shall Find. Knock and the Door shall be opened


fart an ye may follow thrugh ? does that go too ???

No. God is not dead. I just didn't outline the entire story of Easter. Do I need to?

God comes back from the dead, hungry for the flesh of young choir boys. Then the Ghostbusters come and zap his black ass back into the spirit world, then gang bang Alice from Resident Evil (who helped them capture Jesus in the first place)... right?

I will try later, but here are some quick points: Sodom and Gamorah (specifically Lot's wife being turned into salt merely for looking back at her home) the many plagues and deaths inflicted upon Egypt in Genesis/Exodus, the pain and torture he allowed to be inflicted upon Job and petty reply to Job's anger, and of course the horror that is the end times.

Can some Christian please explain to me why the destruction of a third of mankind is just?
Personally I think the ramplings of that Paul merely stemmed from a plebian resentment of the Roman Empire. The Romans fed his people to lions, so he got back at them the only way he could: through his imaginary God.
If the Bible consisted only of the text of Jesus (I love that man) the good book would be a lot gooder.

yes dark dragon it does.

Because "god" is not his name. It's merely a job description... :rolleyes:

Really. There are also many names for God, showing His personalities.

Well, He did make you and then die for your salvation.

If he created me he still has to continue to earn my respect. Creation is not enough in and of itself. And last time I checked I have to accept that Jesus died for my sins and accept him into my heart before I am rewarded. But as seeing that a truly good God would just say, he died for you and no belief requirement for salvation, it is free. Giving someone salvation without belief is what a true merciful god would do, but condemning one for not having faith is petty.

It cleaaaaaaaarly states in the Bible, that God loves the sinner and hates the sin.Yes that includes Hitler, Bush, Charles Manson and Jimmy Carter.
I'm sorry. You're of course right. It's just irreconcilable with his punishment.

Two people love eachother, thus they'll forever be tortured.

One random human thinks that the whole religion business sounds a bit absurd, so he'll go fry for eternity.

It's not that God hates any of those people, it's just that they failed to live up to Gods standards... Riiight!
God isn't a homophobe. It just tortures homo's for all eternity because it decided that being a homo is a sin. It's not evil either, it just turtures people who does stuff it doesn't like.

Can some Christian please explain to me why the destruction of a third of mankind is just?
Personally I think the ramplings of that Paul merely stemmed from a plebian resentment of the Roman Empire. The Romans fed his people to lions, so he got back at them the only way he could: through his imaginary God.
If the Bible consisted only of the text of Jesus (I love that man) the good book would be a lot gooder.

Paul was Saul, a Jew. Shit man, don't you read? He probably got high off poppies on the road to Damascus.

If he created me he still has to continue to earn my respect. Creation is not enough in and of itself. And last time I checked I have to accept that Jesus died for my sins and accept him into my heart before I am rewarded. But as seeing that a truly good God would just say, he died for you and no belief requirement for salvation, it is free. Giving someone salvation without belief is what a true merciful god would do, but condemning one for not having faith is petty.

It's like trying to reason with stucco. Except slightly less entertaining.

If he created me he still has to continue to earn my respect. Creation is not enough in and of itself. And last time I checked I have to accept that Jesus died for my sins and accept him into my heart before I am rewarded. But as seeing that a truly good God would just say, he died for you and no belief requirement for salvation, it is free. Giving someone salvation without belief is what a true merciful god would do, but condemning one for not having faith is petty.

Okay..but have you ever given God the chance to earn your respect? Have you ever prayed to Him in sincerity and full confidence? If you haven't, how do you expect God to work on you?

If you don't believe or accept something, you can't be entitled to its benefits. God is truly all loving, but He is also just. He cannot take a sin for no-sin.

Umm...no. Perfection is that which is incorrupt and undefiled. It is pure love and pure justice. God helps those who are in need and call on His name, and punishes those who are oppressive and refuse to associate with Him. Pure love is deserving of worship by its very nature. It is an inherent quality.



Premise: God is perfectly just, he punishes the wicked and rewards the good.


It is evidenced in the scriptures that His necessity to maintain benevolence is fulfilled wherein he condemns the evil and saves the righteous. Accepting His sacrifice for your sin and striving to adhere to his law will be rewarded. Refusing his sacrifice and living a life of evil will be punished.


Therefore, God can be said to be the Perfect Agent of Justice.


Adoration is to be directed towards that which is good. Hence, all the virtues, though namely love comes to mind, are to be adored. God perfects Himself in that He is perfectly just, ergo He is deserving of total adoration.

Therefore, a Holy God is deserving of nothing less than full devotion and worship.

Benevolence and justice? Those two don't go together.
Either you are just - in which case you will have to judge without emotion and without any attachment to the people you judge.
Or else you are benevolent, in which case you can't judge.

Looking at the old testament, god is actually neither.

Umm...no. Perfection is that which is incorrupt and undefiled. It is pure love and pure justice. God helps those who are in need and call on His name, and punishes those who are oppressive and refuse to associate with Him. Pure love is deserving of worship by its very nature. It is an inherent quality.



Premise: God is perfectly just, he punishes the wicked and rewards the good.


It is evidenced in the scriptures that His necessity to maintain benevolence is fulfilled wherein he condemns the evil and saves the righteous. Accepting His sacrifice for your sin and striving to adhere to his law will be rewarded. Refusing his sacrifice and living a life of evil will be punished.


Therefore, God can be said to be the Perfect Agent of Justice.


Adoration is to be directed towards that which is good. Hence, all the virtues, though namely love comes to mind, are to be adored. God perfects Himself in that He is perfectly just, ergo He is deserving of total adoration.

Therefore, a Holy God is deserving of nothing less than full devotion and worship.


How do we know God is good? Because god said so...
How do we know God is right? Because god is perfect...
How do we know God is perfect? Because god said so...

That is the circular argument that destroys such logic...

No. God is not dead. I just didn't outline the entire story of Easter. Do I need to?

No, you don't have to. Not really a big deal to die then, when you know you'll be resurrected a few days later. Yeah, I'll admit Friday was a tough day - but then he had the whole weekend off, and then it was back to work on Monday.

Paul was Saul, a Jew. Shit man, don't you read? He probably got high off poppies on the road to Damascus.

A different Paul other than the famous Paul/Saul wrote revelations, which I'm reffering to. His texts started from one of the Grecian islands (?)

who said god would fry ppl ass's for not worsheping him/her/it it was a man writing in a darn book !! god never said to any one on here i grant thee life now tazz me off an ur gonna fry boi!!! (well i cant remember that section of my birth atleast lmao)

No, you don't have to. Not really a big deal to die then, when you know you'll be resurrected a few days later. Yeah, I'll admit Friday was a tough day - but then he had the whole weekend off, and then it was back to work on Monday.

I like my story better. i.e. Read my damn posts! I'm funny, dammit!

It's like trying to reason with stucco. Except slightly less entertaining.

All you have given are the same reasons... He created you and died for your sins... and my response so what? His actions and provisions for entry into heaven are absurd for a perfectly omnibenevolent god.

A different Paul other than the famous Paul/Saul wrote revelations, which I'm reffering to. His texts started from one of the Grecian islands (?)

Oh, ok then. I was just playing ignoramus' advocate. No hard feelings, my fellow Californian.

Can some Christian please explain to me why the destruction of a third of mankind is just?
Personally I think the ramplings of that Paul merely stemmed from a plebian resentment of the Roman Empire. The Romans fed his people to lions, so he got back at them the only way he could: through his imaginary God.
If the Bible consisted only of the text of Jesus (I love that man) the good book would be a lot gooder.

DO u think before you speak/type? Yes he was not the biggest fan of the Romans, however, he did not speak out agains them from pure resentment. Look at his past, as a Pharisee, persecuter of Christians himself, and converts why? Those people were thrown to the lions too, and stoned in public. Read the whole bible before you complain. Now, onto your killing a third of mankind. I believe...(which means dont take my word as authoirty, although I have studied the Bible many years, pastor in training, etc) that when he kills a third of mankind, it will be cleansing the population, as unjust and cruel as it may sound, he's killing off/.thinning the herd, eliminatin morally depraved violators of God's Law, the Ten Commandments, in order to make the world a pure place for his devout followers. If you read Revelations, it tells you he will cleanse the earth, making it pure, and the lamb and lion will sleep together again in peace, and that we will once again liv eon earth as we do now, but in a purified, dignified, holy manner.

Can some Christian please explain to me why the destruction of a third of mankind is just?
Personally I think the ramplings of that Paul merely stemmed from a plebian resentment of the Roman Empire. The Romans fed his people to lions, so he got back at them the only way he could: through his imaginary God.
If the Bible consisted only of the text of Jesus (I love that man) the good book would be a lot gooder.



Death itself does not matter at all. What does matter is eternity, and those who are wicked will find themselves seperated from God for eternity, whereas those who are righteous will find themselves with God for eternity.


By the bye, "gooder" isn't a word >.>

All you have given are the same reasons... He created you and died for your sins... and my response so what? His actions and provisions for entry into heaven are absurd for a perfectly omnibenevolent god.

Mmm...the argument that God is all loving so He will forgive you whether you repent for your sins or not. That is not true because God is also JUST, and with justice comes punishment.

Oh, ok then. I was just playing ignoramus' advocate. No hard feelings, my fellow Californian.


Hoozah for the great state of California!

Okay..but have you ever given God the chance to earn your respect? Have you ever prayed to Him in sincerity and full confidence? If you haven't, how do you expect God to work on you?

If you don't believe or accept something, you can't be entitled to its benefits. God is truly all loving, but He is also just. He cannot take a sin for no-sin.

Yes, on many occasions. I still pray every once in a while, actually hoping that I am wrong and HE IS THERE. That would help ease a lot of pressure off my mind. But during all my years of believing and subsequent efforts at trying to "come back to God" I have been met with utter silence. What I am suppose to think?

All you have given are the same reasons... He created you and died for your sins... and my response so what? His actions and provisions for entry into heaven are absurd for a perfectly omnibenevolent god.

I think you seem to be missing the large letters in my signature that state that I like catgirl porn and that I'm a member of the Atheist Empire. You also seem to have overlooked several of my arguments.

I'll forgive you this time, but cross me again or accuse me of being a Christian, and I'll castrate you with nail clippers.


EDIT: Hi Mods, this is Reason speaking. Do you know sarcasm when you see it? If not, call this toll free number to order the Spotting Sarcasm in Saipea's Posts brochure. Here you will find a number of wondrous ways to deduce when Saipea is serious or kidding. Act now, and you'll also receive a copy of No I'm Not Threatening You, I'm Just Happy To See You: 1-800 SARCASM.

How do we know God is good? Because god said so...
How do we know God is right? Because god is perfect...
How do we know God is perfect? Because god said so...

That is the circular argument that destroys such logic...

neo doent know the truth im afraid... an that is there is no circle..... How do we know God is good? Because a publisher said so...
How do we know God is right? Because a writer said so...
How do we know God is perfect? Because a writer said so...
so actualy its more sorta rectangular...

Yes, on many occasions. I still pray every once in a while, actually hoping that I am wrong and HE IS THERE. That would help ease a lot of pressure off my mind. But during all my years of believing and subsequent efforts at trying to "come back to God" I have been met with utter silence. What I am suppose to think?
Did you repent for your sins?

Death itself does not matter at all. What does matter is eternity, and those who are wicked will find themselves seperated from God for eternity, whereas those who are righteous will find themselves with God for eternity.


By the bye, "gooder" isn't a word >.>

If death does not matter, as you said, why doesn't every pop a cyanide and return to their rightful place in heaven?

And I know the English language, I was using posting liberties.

Castration with nail clippers? ouch dude, i jumped in my seat just reading it.....im not clipping my nails for a week now...lol. Look, at this stage in our lives, if indeed most of you are in mid to late teens or college, we all question faith, religion, etc. You have to ask yourself why you doubt it though, I mean, one little fallacy is not a reason to give up on religion.

Mmm...the argument that God is all loving so He will forgive you whether you repent for your sins or not. That is not true because God is also JUST, and with justice comes punishment.

Punish those that rape, murder, pillage, but dont punish a person who has lived the life of a saint but cannot or will not believe in Christ or God. I have no problem with the punishment of true evil.

It's like that Blood Sweat and Tears Song- ANd When I Die
the chorus goes- "I can swear there aint no heaven bu i pray there aint no hell"

God Will forgive, but he never said he won't punish you for being insubordinate.

Castration with nail clippers? ouch dude, i jumped in my seat just reading it.....im not clipping my nails for a week now...lol. Look, at this stage in our lives, if indeed most of you are in mid to late teens or college, we all question faith, religion, etc. You have to ask yourself why you doubt it though, I mean, one little fallacy is not a reason to give up on religion.

Trust me, any thinking human being will continue to question those issues way beyond their teens... I know what I'm talking about

I like my story better. i.e. Read my damn posts! I'm funny, dammit!
Aww! You really do have the makings of a god! You're an attention whore too!! :D

Hehe, sorry. You're right though. That bit about Jesus being his father was funny :p

I think you seem to be missing the large letters in my signature that state that I like catgirl porn and that I'm a member of the Atheist Empire. You also seem to have overlooked several of my arguments.

I'll forgive you this time, but cross me again or accuse me of being a Christian, and I'll castrate you with nail clippers.

EDIT: Hi Mods, this is Reason speaking. Do you know sarcasm when you see it? If not, call this toll free number to order the Spotting Sarcasm in Saipea's Posts brochure. Here you will find a number of wondrous ways to deduce when Saipea is serious or kidding. Act now, and you'll also receive a copy of No I'm Not Threatening You, I'm Just Happy To See You

Sorry for the miscommunication... but I keep getting that He created you and Died for you speal sent back as the only reason. Getting a little tempermental about it because that is the same reason that I get from priest's when I try to have an actual heart to heart, soul to soul, discussion with them. It tends to get annoying.

Did you repent for your sins?

No, but I masturbate to Leviticus.

Punish those that rape, murder, pillage, but dont punish a person who has lived the life of a saint but cannot or will not believe in Christ or God. I have no problem with the punishment of true evil.

Many people are saints in the eyes of humans, but to God, all are sinners. If you think you are a saint, imagine if you videotaped your actions and thoughts in public and in private, in the open or in the shadow, for an entire week, would you dare to show the film to a public audience.

hVe u ever thought about picking up the book "purpose driven life" it may help eidalons.

Castration with nail clippers? ouch dude, i jumped in my seat just reading it.....im not clipping my nails for a week now...lol. Look, at this stage in our lives, if indeed most of you are in mid to late teens or college, we all question faith, religion, etc. You have to ask yourself why you doubt it though, I mean, one little fallacy is not a reason to give up on religion.

Many have gone down the path of denouncing religion because it is not true. Every time someone has done this the results were failures.

The trick is to denounce religion using its own moral basis: I don't believe in God because it isn't right.

Did you repent for your sins?

Yes. I have had moments of complete breakdown when I needed God to step in and give his comfort and peace. I was willing to do what was needed to return to grace, but that comfort and peace never came.

Death itself does not matter at all. What does matter is eternity, and those who are wicked will find themselves seperated from God for eternity, whereas those who are righteous will find themselves with God for eternity.

An eternity hanging out with God. Boring. How many million times can you eat shmores and sing Kumbaya before you start wondering what the fun people in Hell are doing?

Many people are saints in the eyes of humans, but to God, all are sinners. If you think you are a saint, imagine if you videotaped your actions and thoughts in public and in private, in the open or in the shadow, for an entire week, would you dare to show the film to a public audience.

So he created us sinners, and unable to live up to the standards he set? And he expects to be loved for that?

If death does not matter, as you said, why doesn't every pop a cyanide and return to their rightful place in heaven?

And I know the English language, I was using posting liberties.

Catch-22, suicide is a sin for you.
Sorry no can do, you'll just have to sit and stew.
But you best start to pray, because one day,
I'll be coming for you!



Look, I'm a poet too! Can you believe I'm still single? (Actually I'm not.)

we all question faith, religion, etc. You have to ask yourself why you doubt it though, I mean, one little fallacy is not a reason to give up on religion.
as an aitheist i doubt most of the bible an some other ''holy'' text simply becouse it wasnt done by the one with the job description of god and yes if he /she/it did it it would be grand an eye popping an completly exelent in all ways or so i hope but then again it could be the 10 commandments on a ciggy pack in this day in age,

Many people are saints in the eyes of humans, but to God, all are sinners. If you think you are a saint, imagine if you videotaped your actions and thoughts in public and in private, in the open or in the shadow, for an entire week, would you dare to show the film to a public audience.

But I have never killed, raped, broken any of the commandments, and tried to live a rather decent life. Granted I have had violent and often "obscene" thoughts, but those should not be condemnable especially since I control the urges behind the thoughts.

We can live up to those standards, but we choose to create a physical environment in which we make it near impossible for ourselves to reach that standard. Sure everyone sins, however most of those situations are avoidable.

I'm sorry. You're of course right. It's just irreconcilable with his punishment.

Two people love eachother, thus they'll forever be tortured.

One random human thinks that the whole religion business sounds a bit absurd, so he'll go fry for eternity.

It's not that God hates any of those people, it's just that they failed to live up to Gods standards... Riiight!
God isn't a homophobe. It just tortures homo's for all eternity because it decided that being a homo is a sin. It's not evil either, it just turtures people who does stuff it doesn't like.



God does not torture anyone for eternity. God is the sole source of all things good, and to sin is to seperate yourself from Him. It would not be just for Him to allow your presence alongside His in your current state, therefore He will not take you unless you repent. God does not choose your fate, you, using your free will, determine it by accepting or rejecting Christ. If you reject Him, then you cannot be in His presence and therefore must reside in a place devoid of God and therefore devoid of anything good. Flames could be a metaphor for that seperation from love, mercy, joy, happiness, etc. that you embrace.

Remember: To love a person of the same sex is not a sin, but good. To yield to sensualities in that regard, however, is not good but sinful. It is gratification of the Self, and placing the Self before the will of God. To state that your desires, those of the imperfect creation, take priority over the righteousness of the Perfect Creator is where the sin of homosexuality lies. You are viewing it from the wrong perspective if you assert that God is evil and you are good for yielding to lust. Perhaps you should learn to submit your fallible reasoning to the infinite logic and wisdom of God?

No, but I masturbate to Leviticus.

Look at you. You blaspheme against God's Holy Words and you expect God to accept you into Heaven because He is "all-loving".

An eternity hanging out with God. Boring. How many million times can you eat shmores and sing Kumbaya before you start wondering what the fun people in Hell are doing?

"In heaven all the interesting people are missing."
-Nietzsche

*booed off stage*
*exits stage left*

Many have gone down the path of denouncing religion because it is not true. Every time someone has done this the results were failures.

The trick is to denounce religion using its own moral basis: I don't believe in God because it isn't right.

Well, we're either right or we're wrong. But if I'm wrong, I'll be met by god(s) that forgive me. Otherwise, I don't give a rats ass, 'cause big boys don't need kiss ups.

So sensualities are sinful?

But I have never killed, raped, broken any of the commandments, and tried to live a rather decent life. Granted I have had violent and often "obscene" thoughts, but those should not be condemnable especially since I control the urges behind the thoughts.



Somehow, I find it hard to believe you have lived a perfect life.

No, but I masturbate to Leviticus.

Please keep the conversation a little more civil... no need to denegrate anothers scripture or belief.

Yes. I have had moments of complete breakdown when I needed God to step in and give his comfort and peace. I was willing to do what was needed to return to grace, but that comfort and peace never came.

Repenting for one's sins and complete emotional breakdown are slightly different events. You were willing to do what was needed, but you didn't do it?

I suggest that you first shut off the computer, close the door, get on your knees and pray with full faith and confidence that God will help you. If you can't summon that bit of faith, ask God for it. Tell Him you know that you are a sinner, that you've turned away from Him, and that you are consciously and really willing to turn back to Him. Then read the Bible, preferably beginning with the the Gospel of John.

So sensualities are sinful?

Obviously.
You were created with them by a "benevolent" god, who then tells you to fight these urges for the rest of your life or suffer for eternity, calls it free will and demands your love and adoration for it... :rolleyes:

But I have never killed, raped, broken any of the commandments, and tried to live a rather decent life. Granted I have had violent and often "obscene" thoughts, but those should not be condemnable especially since I control the urges behind the thoughts.

But you DO have these thoughts. God is very sacred, and hates these thoughts. You cannot control your urges by yourself. It requires divine intervention. That's how hopeless we are.

Somehow, I find it hard to believe you have lived a perfect life.

Didn't say perfect, but I haven't committed the most heinous acts... rape, etc.

I have urges, but I control them. Instead of having sex every time I think about sex I reign in the urgre and suppress the "lust". I have been verbally violent, been in one or two fights, and been somewhat unruly.

Obviously.
You were created with them by a "benevolent" god, who then tells you to fight these urges for the rest of your life or suffer for eternity, calls it free will and demands your love and adoration for it... :rolleyes:



If you continue to think that way, despite my arguments explaining it is not the way you describe it, then it is of your own volition. You are seeing through the eyes of a prideful mortal, through limited logical faculties and limited knowledge. You seek to judge before you know the truth. Relinquish this arrogance, and you will come to see the truth of God.

So sensualities are sinful?

It depends what your sensuality is directed at. If you're sensualities are directed at two women, or a man, or a baby, or a dog in a sexual way, then yes, that sensuality is sin.

However, you can be very sensual at a soul-to-soul contact with the Holy Spirit, and that is hardly sinful, but encouraged.

...I suggest that you first shut off the computer, close the door, get on your knees and pray with full faith and confidence that God will help you. If you can't summon that bit of faith, ask God for it. Tell Him you know that you are a sinner, that you've turned away from Him, and that you are consciously and really willing to turn back to Him. Then read the Bible, preferably beginning with the the Gospel of John.


I have a better suggestion. First shut off the computer, go to the kitchen, pour yourself a nice glass of wine. Watch a little TV and then turn in early. Get a good night's sleep.

That will do more good for you than any religion.

Please keep the conversation a little more civil... no need to denegrate anothers scripture or belief.

It's my scripture too! Who says I can't do what I want with my book of choice in the privacy of my own home. When I was younger, I had no internet access, and so the only way to find something to get off on...

Well, there were dictionaries. And art books. And of course, there was
Dr. Thurman: What else do you think about during school?
Donnie Darko: Married with Children.
Dr. Thurman: Do you think about your family?
Donnie Darko: I just turn down the volume and think about fucking Christina Applegate.
Dr. Thurman: I asked you about your family, Donnie.
<Donnie starts to undo his trousers>
Donnie Darko: No <laughs> I don’t think about fucking my family. That’s gross.

Come on, don't you think my intellectual contributions merit some comedic leeway? *Mod steps in: "No"* Fine, I'm going to bed. I'll exit stage right. Maybe I can find a good orgy.

Actually, this is kind of on topic with the current "dirty topics" tangent.

Repenting for one's sins and complete emotional breakdown are slightly different events. You were willing to do what was needed, but you didn't do it?

I suggest that you first shut off the computer, close the door, get on your knees and pray with full faith and confidence that God will help you. If you can't summon that bit of faith, ask God for it. Tell Him you know that you are a sinner, that you've turned away from Him, and that you are consciously and really willing to turn back to Him. Then read the Bible, preferably beginning with the the Gospel of John.

Those moments I told you about, I did exactly that. That cliched "hole in my life " or "I'm missin something" feeling overrode all my doubts and sincerely prayed and asked God for his help. But that hole was never filled and quite frankly the "ache" is still there. I have tried to fill it with God, but God either has already condemned me or is simply not there.

If you continue to think that way, despite my arguments explaining it is not the way you describe it, then it is of your own volition. You are seeing through the eyes of a prideful mortal, through limited logical faculties and limited knowledge. You seek to judge before you know the truth. Relinquish this arrogance, and you will come to see the truth of God.

Well, I happen to be mortal, and it has always been a great consolation to me. But as I'm not homosexual myself but merely bisexual, please tell me why I am proud?

Didn't say perfect, but I haven't committed the most heinous acts... rape, etc.

I have urges, but I control them. Instead of having sex every time I think about sex I reign in the urgre and suppress the "lust". I have been verbally violent, been in one or two fights, and been somewhat unruly.
God doesn't demand a lot from His followers. But if He really picks you as His follower, then obviously He will give you the ammunition and the will and the power to change. God doesn't change what you do, or what you think. God changes who you are - gradually. Now that is complete Christian life. Don't worry if you repent and your actions don't immediately change. Hold on and you will be rewarded.

Didn't say perfect, but I haven't committed the most heinous acts... rape, etc.

I have urges, but I control them. Instead of having sex every time I think about sex I reign in the urgre and suppress the "lust". I have been verbally violent, been in one or two fights, and been somewhat unruly.



Ah, but your life isn't perfect? A blemish, regardless of dimension and shade, is still a blemish. Christ lived a life of perfection, so it is possible to do so. This is not an impossible standard God has set before us. We only make it impossible by our desire to further our own will. Anyone who has sinned, which means pretty much everyone, is in need of salvation.

Heh...An interesting thing to say but did you realise something? God is INCAPABLE of wisdom. because wisdom requires experience which God does not have, that is why we say he is All-knowing, to make up for the fact that he would actually be incapable of wisdom. One thing that really annoys me is that Christians never think about what anyone else has to say unless the other person is also a Christian in that case there is nothing new...But God is also not logical.
God simply can not be a perfect being because his creations are imperfect and thus he can not be perfect or he would have perfect creations. God is really far too egotistical to be perfect and if he really loved us he'd let us sin and still let us into heaven, because by what he says merely not believing in him is a sin.
Also, if god truly was all-powerful why would he not simply impalnt the knowledge of his existance into our memory from birth and THEN let us decide what we want to do.

BTW: If you really look at Christian mythology Lucifer and Satan are actually two different things...Or at least so my friend says...

Those moments I told you about, I did exactly that. That cliched "hole in my life " or "I'm missin something" feeling overrode all my doubts and sincerely prayed and asked God for his help. But that hole was never filled and quite frankly the "ache" is still there. I have tried to fill it with God, but God either has already condemned me or is simply not there.
I strongly suggest you talk in private with a pastor that you trust and be honest. Also, read the Bible and other Christian books for guidance. Join a church.

Try reading "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren, or other books for new Christians.

Also, if you proclaim yourself to be separate from sin, you have to be separated from sin. The next time you are tempted, pray to the Holy Spirit.

Ah, but your life isn't perfect? A blemish, regardless of dimension and shade, is still a blemish. Christ lived a life of perfection, so it is possible to do so. This is not an impossible standard God has set before us. We only make it impossible by our desire to further our own will. Anyone who has sinned, which means pretty much everyone, is in need of salvation.

*sigh* You guys are the number one cause of teenage psychological disorders. The kind of expectations that such a masochistic and oppressive religion sets up is sickening.

Quit prostheletyzing and get back to learning how to think.

Ah, but your life isn't perfect? A blemish, regardless of dimension and shade, is still a blemish. Christ lived a life of perfection, so it is possible to do so. This is not an impossible standard God has set before us. We only make it impossible by our desire to further our own will. Anyone who has sinned, which means pretty much everyone, is in need of salvation.

For such basic sins as mere thoughts and urges shouldn't a benevolent god automatically forgive them regardless of faith?

I do agree that repentance is needed for the more horrendous sins... but even then should forgiveness be granted? What happened to justice then?

Well, I happen to be mortal, and it has always been a great consolation to me. But as I'm not homosexual myself but merely bisexual, please tell me why I am proud?



You're placing your view of justice above the true reality of justice. To elevate oneself in such a manner is arrogance and prideful rejection of the Truth. If you wish to be humble, you must try your best to see through God's eyes, and you will see that there is no sin in His nature. You must put His will before yours in all aspects of life. If you allow Him to guide your life, He will do what is eventually best for you.

God simply can not be a perfect being because his creations are imperfect and thus he can not be perfect or he would have perfect creations. God is really far too egotistical to be perfect and if he really loved us he'd let us sin and still let us into heaven, because by what he says merely not believing in him is a sin.

So you admit that He is the Creator? :confused:

Heh...An interesting thing to say but did you realise something? God is INCAPABLE of wisdom. because wisdom requires experience which God does not have, that is why we say he is All-knowing, to make up for the fact that he would actually be incapable of wisdom. One thing that really annoys me is that Christians never think about what anyone else has to say unless the other person is also a Christian in that case there is nothing new...But God is also not logical.
God simply can not be a perfect being because his creations are imperfect and thus he can not be perfect or he would have perfect creations. God is really far too egotistical to be perfect and if he really loved us he'd let us sin and still let us into heaven, because by what he says merely not believing in him is a sin.
Also, if god truly was all-powerful why would he not simply impalnt the knowledge of his existance into our memory from birth and THEN let us decide what we want to do.

BTW: If you really look at Christian mythology Lucifer and Satan are actually two different things...Or at least so my friend says...


Lucifer was the "best" among the angels, the general, and is thought to have possibly sat in Christs place before Christs death and resurrection in some interpretations. Lucifer challenged God, the reasons are disputed, and was thrown from heaven. Lucifer then became the lord of hell and is mainly regard ed to as Satan. If Lucifer is not Satan, then that means Satan is a being unaccounted for in creation and thus can be argued that he was not created by God. Strange thought because then God's power, knowledge, and even supposed creation of the world is brought into question.

You're placing your view of justice above the true reality of justice. To elevate oneself in such a manner is arrogance and prideful rejection of the Truth. If you wish to be humble, you must try your best to see through God's eyes, and you will see that there is no sin in His nature. You must put His will before yours in all aspects of life. If you allow Him to guide your life, He will do what is eventually best for you.

I have no intention on being humble, but there is some middle ground there, you know.
I don't look for divine justice, as it generally turns out to be anything but just, I'm looking for fairness. And god's treatment of people of my kind is anything but fair.
Of course there is no "sin" in god, I never said that. God makes the rules, but they don't seem to apply to him. What I said was that god isn't as benevolent as you paint him here.

Not questioning god seems to me to be sinful as well, as you are throwing away the brain and the free will he gave you...

For such basic sins as mere thoughts and urges shouldn't a benevolent god automatically forgive them regardless of faith?

I do agree that repentance is needed for the more horrendous sins... but even then should forgiveness be granted? What happened to justice then?


The first inception of such thoughts and lusts is not where sin arises. It is when you continue to dwell on these thoughts and lusts that sin creeps into your mind.


As for your second statement, we would indeed not be worthy of forgiveness without an equivalent act of righteousness to remove sin. Part of God's aspect, the Son, took on a human incarnation so that he might live the life of a man, equally tempted and equally suffering as we are, and endure the test of will to maintain His perfection. He, unlike us, never once yielded to temptation, and therefore was a perfect sacrifice to be offered in propitiation for our sins. Thus, anyone who accepts His sacrifice and strives to not sin again, repenting when they do, can and will attain eternity with God and Love.


Edit: With that said I'm going to bed....I have to get up in 5 hours :(

God does not torture anyone for eternity. God is the sole source of all things good, and to sin is to seperate yourself from Him. It would not be just for Him to allow your presence alongside His in your current state, therefore He will not take you unless you repent. God does not choose your fate, you, using your free will, determine it by accepting or rejecting Christ. If you reject Him, then you cannot be in His presence and therefore must reside in a place devoid of God and therefore devoid of anything good. Flames could be a metaphor for that seperation from love, mercy, joy, happiness, etc. that you embrace.

Remember: To love a person of the same sex is not a sin, but good. To yield to sensualities in that regard, however, is not good but sinful. It is gratification of the Self, and placing the Self before the will of God. To state that your desires, those of the imperfect creation, take priority over the righteousness of the Perfect Creator is where the sin of homosexuality lies. You are viewing it from the wrong perspective if you assert that God is evil and you are good for yielding to lust. Perhaps you should learn to submit your fallible reasoning to the infinite logic and wisdom of God?

Is that so? How do mere fallible & prideful mortals discern when it's parables & when it's the litteral truth?

Isn't there a very good chance that Lev was in fact talking about hetero's doing the dirty with eachother?

If I have sex with someone, do you automatically think I indulge in it just to please myself? If that was the case, I'd settle for my hands. They're perfectly capable of doing the same.
Sex - to me at least - is something that affirms love, and it's at least as much aboutpleasing my partner as it's about pleasing myself. But the whole pleasure thing is rarely what motivates me.

Why should I offer anything but scorn* to someone who creates me, and creates my desires, and my intellect, yet forbids me to give in to the one, and use the other?

*No, I don't offer God a thing. But I almost certainly would offer the Christian God nothing but scorn if I believed s/he was real

I strongly suggest you talk in private with a pastor that you trust and be honest. Also, read the Bible and other Christian books for guidance. Join a church.

Try reading "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren, or other books for new Christians.

Also, if you proclaim yourself to be separate from sin, you have to be separated from sin. The next time you are tempted, pray to the Holy Spirit.

Again I have talked to several priests, pastors, and ministers, one of them being my own grandfather. Needless to say since I am having this discussion, they weren't able to help. I have read several of those kind of books as well, but found most of them to be to shallow and did not delve into the heart of the matter in a manner that suited me. They just did not work for me.

I do agree that repentance is needed for the more horrendous sins... but even then should forgiveness be granted? What happened to justice then?

Remember the scene which Jesus was nailed on the cross with two other criminals? One of the criminals scorned Jesus, taunting Him to rescue Himself and them. However, the other criminal repented his sins and asked for Jesus' forgiveness. Jesus said that they will both end up in Paradise, but Jesus did not rescue that criminal from physical death.

All humans will receive the punishment of physical death, but those who have repented will enjoy a place in Heaven.

Moreover, a true Christian will feel guilty for all his past sins before he can get over them in Christ's love. If Hitler became a true Christian before his death, he would still be tormented by his previous sins and crimes until he makes up to them.

Again I have talked to several priests, pastors, and ministers, one of them being my own grandfather. Needless to say since I am having this discussion, they weren't able to help. I have read several of those kind of books as well, but found most of them to be to shallow and did not delve into the heart of the matter in a manner that suited me. They just did not work for me.

Do you want to telegram me for privacy?

Problems with the God of the Bible:
Desired to restrict knowledge from humanity (the apple)
Summarily threw Adam and Even from Eden because they knew of sin, but *gasp* so does God if he is omnipitent
Created Death
Created Pain
When humans showed immense initiative and intelligence and began building the tower of Babel, he split language and hence split humanity
The Flood
Killed Lot's wife for merely looking back at her burning home
Let Job suffer and did so willingly, and then came forth with a rather snarky response to Job's pleas of anger and hurt
Christ, the son of god (and God in an odd way), yelled at a fig tree
Armaggedon
Hell

Do you want to telegram me for privacy?

I'm secure in my insecurities... most people have had similar problems, so I have no problem being open with the entire board

Problems with the God of the Bible:
Desired to restrict knowledge from humanity (the apple)
Summarily threw Adam and Even from Eden because they knew of sin, but *gasp* so does God if he is omnipitent
Created Death
Created Pain
When humans showed immense initiative and intelligence and began building the tower of Babel, he split language and hence split humanity
The Flood
Killed Lot's wife for merely looking back at her burning home
Let Job suffer and did so willingly, and then came forth with a rather snarky response to Job's pleas of anger and hurt
Christ, the son of god (and God in an odd way), yelled at a fig tree
Armaggedon
Hell
Well, okay. If you still hold these concepts of the fundamental nature of God how do you expect God to forgive you based on your own fundamental nature?

I'm secure in my insecurities... most people have had similar problems, so I have no problem being open with the entire board
Mm. Up to you.

I am undecided, I believe in evolution and science but I still think it's a possibility that God exists as there are still things that are unaccounted for by science as it is now, However I argue with the Christian idea of god or at least the Christian methods, I haven't researched the other religions well enough to develop an opinion of them yet but I hold the view that people need to find their own philosophy in life to experiance true happiness.

Well, okay. If you still hold these concepts of the fundamental nature of God how do you expect God to forgive you based on your own fundamental nature?

Aren't we supposed to be the ones being forggiven? Not the othe way arround?

I am undecided, I believe in evolution and science but I still think it's a possibility that God exists as there are still things that are unaccounted for by science as it is now, .

You can believe in science and still be Christian. Many notable scientists are Christians.

This was adopted rather recently, but if I cannot rectify these inconsistent imperfections in God, then why should I pray to this God?

Before I was rather ignorant of certain parts of the bible, and wasn't aware of some of these glaring problems. Even so, if I can forgive him can he not forgive me. I have no problem with an imperfect God, as long as it is not maintained he is still perfect in the face of iimperfection.

The main question I have in regards to this, is this the God that is out there or is it the more merciful benevolent loving God that is not really espoused by scripture and doctrine?

Aren't we supposed to be the ones being forggiven? Not the othe way arround?
What I see Eidalons' situation is that he does this:

"God, you're an evil idiot, but God, I need your help, and I'm not getting it."

Why don't you try that with your parent? "**** you, Mom. I hate you. But I need your money." It would be a wonder if your mother will give you any.

You can believe in science and still be Christian. Many notable scientists are Christians.

I know but I too am a philosopher, and few good philosophers were christian.

What I see Eidalons' situation is that he does this:

"God, you're an evil idiot, but God, I need your help, and I'm not getting it."

Why don't you try that with your parent? "**** you, Mom. I hate you. But I need your money." It would be a wonder if your mother will give you any.

Tsk, tsk... I am merely unsure of what God is. Based on scripture there are some problems with God's perfection but as I said before, if I can forgive or at least overlook these problems and come to him for help, should he not still be there for me?

I have learned that with knowledge, the world, and all involved with it, look less innocent as more is learned. Knowledge is a burden that I must carry, however, and it should never be asked of me to be ignorant. Even if knowing things paints god in a less favourable light (philosophy's problem of evil).

This was adopted rather recently, but if I cannot rectify these inconsistent imperfections in God, then why should I pray to this God?
Well, no wonder you can't find God. You've answered your question yourself.


Before I was rather ignorant of certain parts of the bible, and wasn't aware of some of these glaring problems. Even so, if I can forgive him can he not forgive me. I have no problem with an imperfect God, as long as it is not maintained he is still perfect in the face of iimperfection.
You're probably more ignorant of the bits in which God is glaringly loving and caring. You haven't accepted Him, so how can you expect Him to forgive you? If you still hold the belief that God is imperfect, then I'm sorry, you may never find God. You can't take half of the God package and not the other half. God demands total obedience, at least of the fundamental concepts such as "God is perfect and is worthy of worship".[/quote]

The main question I have in regards to this, is this the God that is out there or is it the more merciful benevolent loving God that is not really espoused by scripture and doctrine?

There are. They are called statues, and they will grant you your every wish, be it for good grades or for a third concubine. They have no concept of right or wrong, or will demand nothing from you except your occasional offering. Now THESE are human creations which justify sin for humanity.

What I see Eidalons' situation is that he does this:

"God, you're an evil idiot, but God, I need your help, and I'm not getting it."

Why don't you try that with your parent? "**** you, Mom. I hate you. But I need your money." It would be a wonder if your mother will give you any.

So, we should not be honest with god if we feel that he's unjust and deceited, but rather grovel so we get what we need? Nice attitude...

I know but I too am a philosopher, and few good philosophers were christian.

Perhaps. Philosophers are smart people, so smart that they have covered their eyes and ears from the possibility that a higher being exists.

<-- SEE THAT POST COUNT? IT SAYS 7,000! :D

Tsk, tsk... I am merely unsure of what God is. Based on scripture there are some problems with God's perfection but as I said before, if I can forgive or at least overlook these problems and come to him for help, should he not still be there for me?

True strength comes from within. If you rely on invisible forces it becomes a crutch, and then you can never truly become an independent individual and feel good about yourself.

But then again, I'm just preaching you being your own god. I'm just an evil sinner. But at least I'm happy while still being self aware. Not miserable behind deception. Do what feels best for you, don't put yourself through psychological and emotional hell merely because others -- even alleged celestial beings -- dictate things to you. No one of value would do such a thing.

This was adopted rather recently, but if I cannot rectify these inconsistent imperfections in God, then why should I pray to this God?

Before I was rather ignorant of certain parts of the bible, and wasn't aware of some of these glaring problems. Even so, if I can forgive him can he not forgive me. I have no problem with an imperfect God, as long as it is not maintained he is still perfect in the face of iimperfection.

The main question I have in regards to this, is this the God that is out there or is it the more merciful benevolent loving God that is not really espoused by scripture and doctrine?

When you ascribe to a faith, you pretty much have to accept the doctrines of that faith unquestionably.
To not do so, is to not truly follow that religions teachings.

If the bible tells you that God does not make mistakes, then you are required to accept it.
If you can not...then maybe that faith is not for you.

As for kind and benevolent...

Ask Thailand, or New Orleans ask them how benevolent God is.

Tsk, tsk... I am merely unsure of what God is. Based on scripture there are some problems with God's perfection but as I said before, if I can forgive or at least overlook these problems and come to him for help, should he not still be there for me?
Well, of course He will.

Still, why is it god needs our worthship?

To me it seems egocentric and considering the punishment for not worthshipping God, it appears downright evil. I'm not saying it must be evil & egocentric, but what possible reason can there be?

Dragons Bay:

It is only recently that I have come to harbour severe doubts about God in this light. Before, I had accepted him and the silence in which I was greeted only created and eventually fed my doubts to the point where all I can do is doubt. Silence as an answer to a prayer can only be accepted a few scant times. When it becomes the rule then it is very difficult to overcome the doubts and reach out once again to God.

Ask Thailand, or New Orleans ask them how benevolent God is.

But first you have to ask Thailand and New Orleans how close to God they were.

Remember, while God is the granter of life, He is also the taker of it. And He is entitled to take life because we chose to sin, not because God likes to play games on humans. Once we sin, we give God the right to take our life away.

Still, why is it god needs our worthship?

To me it seems egocentric and considering the punishment for not worthshipping God, it appears downright evil. I'm not saying it must be evil & egocentric, but what possible reason can there be?


The idea that a kind and loving god would condemn anyone to Hell, unless you pay him utter devotion is absurd.

It dates back to early Christianity, when the best way to gain new converts, was to scare them into it, with a bit of fire and brimstone.

I know but I too am a philosopher, and few good philosophers were christian.

Maybe so, but many notable Philosophers were Deists especially in the Renaissance.

True strength comes from within. If you rely on invisible forces it becomes a crutch, and then you can never truly become an independent individual and feel good about yourself.

But then again, I'm just preaching you being your own god. I'm just an evil sinner. But at least I'm happy while still being self aware. Not miserable behind deception. Do what feels best for you, don't put yourself through psychological and emotional hell merely because others -- even alleged celestial beings -- dictate things to you. No one of value would do such a thing.

My point right now is that there is no crutch... I go to lean on it and fall on my face. I'm getting sick of the pain. I primarily do rely on myself, but I have moments of sincere spiritual need. The questions that cannot be answered sometimes become too much too bear, but I am one of those that cannot cast them off.

But first you have to ask Thailand and New Orleans how close to God they were.

Remember, while God is the granter of life, He is also the taker of it. And He is entitled to take life because we chose to sin, not because God likes to play games on humans. Once we sin, we give God the right to take our life away.

No offense Drag, but I find that to be utter crap.

How conveinient, then, that whole "original sin" thing.

Seems we are born sinners.

I think thats crap of the highest calibre.

There are. They are called statues, and they will grant you your every wish, be it for good grades or for a third concubine. They have no concept of right or wrong, or will demand nothing from you except your occasional offering. Now THESE are human creations which justify sin for humanity.

Dragon Bay, you are a disgrace to your heritage and a paragon of ignorance. Kindly STFU.

The main question I have in regards to this, is this the God that is out there or is it the more merciful benevolent loving God that is not really espoused by scripture and doctrine?

Look into Buddhism, if you seek spirituality without self delusion. Besides that, there's [reformed] Judaism and the [watered-down] liberal Christianity.

Dragons Bay:

It is only recently that I have come to harbour severe doubts about God in this light. Before, I had accepted him and the silence in which I was greeted only created and eventually fed my doubts to the point where all I can do is doubt. Silence as an answer to a prayer can only be accepted a few scant times. When it becomes the rule then it is very difficult to overcome the doubts and reach out once again to God.

I understand your difficulties. But the Bible tells us that if we hold on until the very end, we will be saved. Mind you, it's THE VERY END, until the Judgement Day.

But first you have to ask Thailand and New Orleans how close to God they were.

Remember, while God is the granter of life, He is also the taker of it. And He is entitled to take life because we chose to sin, not because God likes to play games on humans. Once we sin, we give God the right to take our life away.
You need help. Badly. Right now.

No offense Drag, but I find that to be utter crap.

How conveinient, then, that whole "original sin" thing.

Seems we are born sinners.

I think thats crap of the highest calibre.

It is rather convenient, isn't it? Sometimes the truth is glaring in our eyes and we don't see it. This is one of the cases. For many atheists Christianity does seem too easy to be accepted as salvation. But there it is.

Look into Buddhism, if you seek spirituality without self delusion. Besides that, there's [reformed] Judaism and the [watered-down] liberal Christianity.

No. Buddhism also requires a belief in a deity, called Buddha.

I understand your difficulties. But the Bible tells us that if we hold on until the very end, we will be saved. Mind you, it's THE VERY END, until the Judgement Day.

If Judgement Day is as the Bible says, I'm not too sure I would be pleased with God at that juncture. Unneccessary death, suffering, and really a waste of giving us Eden, kicking us out, giving us Eden once again. It would all seem meaningless.

No. Buddhism also requires a belief in a deity, called Buddha.
No it doesn't.

No it doesn't.

Depends on the sect... some disregard Buddha altogether, while others have some fairly god centred views.

It is rather convenient, isn't it? Sometimes the truth is glaring in our eyes and we don't see it. This is one of the cases. For many atheists Christianity does seem too easy to be accepted as salvation. But there it is.

Well, denying all my logical thought, all my experience, all my feeling of justice and mercy, my conscience and my empathy doesn't somehow seem the easy way to salvation. Nor does it seem the right one, for that matter.

My point right now is that there is no crutch... I go to lean on it and fall on my face. I'm getting sick of the pain. I primarily do rely on myself, but I have moments of sincere spiritual need. The questions that cannot be answered sometimes become too much too bear, but I am one of those that cannot cast them off.

That's good. I don't mean to diagnose, nor pretend to know you, but you seem to be an individual with a far less genetic disposition for dogmatism and spirituality than you were thrust into. It's an unfortunate situation, and I can empathize.

So the crutch doesn't work for you anymore. So what?

Suffer through the pain, and find resolve at the end of it all. Everything is better once your mind breaks free. Expect some depression, desperation, etc. If you can't handle it, you can always go back to your crutch.

But personally, I wouldn't want to be a gimp.

It's a living hell, but at the end of it all, life becomes so much sweeter and enjoyable. It's really an incredible thing. You value everything more, not only for its fragility, but for its uncanny complexity that you can't explain... but frankly doesn't matter at the end of it all.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. All I'm saying is, if you're aware of the crutch, and it's lost its value (which is, of course, expected in this context), then you shouldn't need it.

No. Buddhism also requires a belief in a deity, called Buddha.

Buddah is no deity... :rolleyes:

No. Buddhism also requires a belief in a deity, called Buddha.

That's religious Buddhism, and Buddha is still merely a teacher. I'm talking about Zen Buddhism.

Incidentally, the Jesus cult stole much of its mythology and teachings from Buddha (and Mithra.) Try reading up on it, if you dare.

It is rather convenient, isn't it? Sometimes the truth is glaring in our eyes and we don't see it. This is one of the cases. For many atheists Christianity does seem too easy to be accepted as salvation. But there it is.


No, its simply a stupid loophole,and innane circular logic.

1. When we sin, we give god the right to take our lives, if he so chooses.

2. We are all born as sinners.

3. Ergo..God, has the very right to take your life the moment youre born.

Thats a crappy exscuse to shift the blame away from God in the case of such a tragedy as NO, or Thailand.

"He had permission?!"

Rediculous!

Its that kind of thinking that makes the christian unable to separate themselves objectionally, when talking about religion, from thier actual faiths.

It enables the user to rationalize tragedy as "not Gods fault", even though God is all-powerful, and a wonderfully loving guy who would never throw a hurricane at anyone, or a tsunami.

If Judgement Day is as the Bible says, I'm not too sure I would be pleased with God at that juncture. Unneccessary death, suffering, and really a waste of giving us Eden, kicking us out, giving us Eden once again. It would all seem meaningless.

The introduction of sin makes that mean something.

That's good. I don't mean to diagnose, nor pretend to know you, but you seem to be an individual with a far less genetic disposition for dogmatism and spirituality than you were thrust into. It's an unfortunate situation, and I can empathize.

So the crutch doesn't work for you anymore. So what?

Suffer through the pain, and find resolve at the end of it all. Everything is better once your mind breaks free. Expect some depression, desperation, etc. If you can't handle it, you can always go back to your crutch.

But personally, I wouldn't want to be a gimp.

It's a living hell, but at the end of it all, life becomes so much sweeter and enjoyable. It's really an incredible thing. You value everything more, not only for its fragility, but for its uncanny complexity that you can't explain... but frankly doesn't matter at the end of it all.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. All I'm saying is, if you're aware of the crutch, and it's lost its value (which is, of course, expected in this context), then you shouldn't need it.


I agree utterly in regards to self reliance, but there are questions out there that have no answer in scientific fact or in reality. So I turn to philosophy and religion to find those answers. It is hard to battle through depression when you have arrived at the conclusion that life is uttlerly meaningless, regardless if after death there is oblivion or eternity.

You need help. Badly. Right now.

He's the poster child for missionary success stories. And forced sterelization.

200+ posts in this thread and nothing makes any more sense than when I started the thread. But guess that is life.

Well, denying all my logical thought, all my experience, all my feeling of justice and mercy, my conscience and my empathy doesn't somehow seem the easy way to salvation. Nor does it seem the right one, for that matter.

Well, the tragedies of others should always be lessons of us. Haven't the disasters taught you that life is really short and unstable, and therefore you need to hurry back to the Lord before it's too late?

I agree utterly in regards to self reliance, but there are questions out there that have no answer in scientific fact or in reality. So I turn to philosophy and religion to find those answers. It is hard to battle through depression when you have arrived at the conclusion that life is uttlerly meaningless, regardless if after death there is oblivion or eternity.


Let me tell you this.

As an former christian, (recovering) and a person who deals with depression as well...

You are at a crossroads.
Youre thinking that life holds no value, and everything you used to enjoy holds no attraction anymore.
So, youre turning to God, to look for help.
It isnt going to come.
You already know that.

What will come, is what you make of it.
Depression is a bitch becuase the only way to feel any better, is to MAKE yourself do so, wich is even harder to do, when you feel so miserable and have little ambition.

If the meds help, take em.
This might be a good time to look into other religions, if your feeling spiritually empty, or even better, look inwards for such answers.
You never know what you'll find.

No, its simply a stupid loophole,and innane circular logic.

1. When we sin, we give god the right to take our lives, if he so chooses.

2. We are all born as sinners.

3. Ergo..God, has the very right to take your life the moment youre born.

Thats a crappy exscuse to shift the blame away from God in the case of such a tragedy as NO, or Thailand.

"He had permission?!"

Rediculous!

Its that kind of thinking that makes the christian unable to separate themselves objectionally, when talking about religion, from thier actual faiths.

It enables the user to rationalize tragedy as "not Gods fault", even though God is all-powerful, and a wonderfully loving guy who would never throw a hurricane at anyone, or a tsunami.

We are NOT born sinners. Adam wasn't created as a sinner. Neither was Eve. Neither is any of us. We just sin.

God is indeed all-powerful and wonderfully loving, BUT HE IS ALSO JUST, AND HE WILL NOT DECLARE YOU FORGIVEN BEFORE YOU BECOME HUMBLE AND ASK NICELY FOR IT.

Let me tell you this.

As an former christian, (recovering) and a person who deals with depression as well...

You are at a crossroads.
Youre thinking that life holds no value, and everything you used to enjoy holds no attraction anymore.
So, youre turning to God, to look for help.
It isnt going to come.
You already know that.

What will come, is what you make of it.
Depression is a bitch becuase the only way to feel any better, is to MAKE yourself do so, wich is even harder to do, when you feel so miserable and have little ambition.

If the meds help, take em.
This might be a good time to look into other religions, if your feeling spiritually empty, or even better, look inwards for such answers.
You never know what you'll find.


Looked inwards. I think what I found in there is more terrifying than anything God has done or could do to me. Not because it is empty or some such cliche, but mainly because what I believe is terrifying by itself.

I agree utterly in regards to self reliance, but there are questions out there that have no answer in scientific fact or in reality. So I turn to philosophy and religion to find those answers. It is hard to battle through depression when you have arrived at the conclusion that life is uttlerly meaningless, regardless if after death there is oblivion or eternity.

You can either take joy in what you're given, or shroud yourself in ignorance, hate, and self-loathing... that's true no matter whether you're an atheist, Christian, or agnostic.

If I may:
As it is now, though, it seems you're at the same stage I was several years ago (albeit in a more religious setting). It's the distinction between passive and active nihilism. You're stuck in passive nihilism, and believe me, besides the fact that you're already probably an introvert, you're much more of a drag to be around than usual. :D You find misery in thought, but only through thought will you find solace. There is nothing left for you with your crutch or delusions. For me, the breaking point was Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus.
Give it a shot: http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/sisyphus.htm

Looked inwards. I think what I found in there is more terrifying than anything God has done or could do to me. Not because it is empty or some such cliche, but mainly because what I believe is terrifying by itself.


Terrifying in what way?

More terrifying that believing that the life you have is pointless, and always will be?

Whats worse than that?

Well, the tragedies of others should always be lessons of us. Haven't the disasters taught you that life is really short and unstable, and therefore you need to hurry back to the Lord before it's too late?

Actually, they taught me that we need to set up a system of alarm for such cases, that no matter how small my income may be, there's others that need the money more and I must therefore give it to them, that the international community still has a lot of work to do. They taught me pity and empathy again.
No, they didn't teach me to "hurry back to the Lord", as by Christian belief he was the one who originated the disasters, and as there are more important things to do, like helping others, right now.

Terrifying in what way?

More terrifying that believing that the life you have is pointless, and always will be?

Whats worse than that?

Believing you will live forever, without end, without meaning, and without a heaven.

Believing you will live forever, without end, without meaning, and without a heaven.

I consoled myself in believing in Nirvana... not the band, but the afterlife.
I don't want to live forever, be that in heaven or hell. I hope, I sincerely hope, that once I find the courage to end this life, nothing will come after it. Nothing at all. I will cease to exist, there will be no more memory, no more pain, no more suffering. There won't be a single thought left...

:fluffle:

I consoled myself in believing in Nirvana... not the band, but the afterlife.
I don't want to live forever, be that in heaven or hell. I hope, I sincerely hope, that once I find the courage to end this life, nothing will come after it. Nothing at all. I will cease to exist, there will be no more memory, no more pain, no more suffering. There won't be a single thought left...

:fluffle:

no meaning, cease to exist
live forever, no end, no meaning, no heaven

both have the same appeal for me 0. Well that pretty much goes for any eternity/oblivion situation. Sadly, no middle ground in this case.

Actually, they taught me that we need to set up a system of alarm for such cases, that no matter how small my income may be, there's others that need the money more and I must therefore give it to them, that the international community still has a lot of work to do. They taught me pity and empathy again.
No, they didn't teach me to "hurry back to the Lord", as by Christian belief he was the one who originated the disasters, and as there are more important things to do, like helping others, right now.

God did not originate disasters.

I need a life. See you all. ;)

Believing you will live forever, without end, without meaning, and without a heaven.

Are you alluding to something in particular? i.e. What's the rational for that?

Nonetheless, as long as you have thought, you have happiness (well, not for you currently, but you'll get over it eventually). And if you don't have thought, then you don't care, now do you?

In short, there really isn't any way things can be too bad, and if it's unimaginable torment, then I guess I'll just have to wait and see. :D