NationStates Jolt Archive

This isn't an America-bashing post, I just want to ask you guys when you think the USA's dominance over the world will end.

It'll take a bit. We made it through a lot and we've probably got a lot more to go through.

When Orion collides with Gemenii,
and the fatted calf moos no more,
and when the boy with the Toblerone for a hat moves into Palestine.
Then will America fall.

Not in the foreseeable future.
No one alive today will live to see America "fall".

We may takes some scrapes and lumps along the way, but they'll all be minor.

america will fall within at least my lifetime i reckon 1991~2060

Depends by what you mean by fall.

When Rome fell, the empire ceased to, exist.

When the British Empire fell, Britain still existed as a powerful nation.

I don't think the USA will fall like Rome, but will eventually lose power, probably to China.

But there will probably always be an America in some form, even if less powerful then it is today.

I don't think the USA will collapse outright, but it has the potential to lose its superpower status within 25 years...or at least its sole-superpower status.

This isn't an America-bashing post, I just want to ask you guys when you think the USA's dominance over the world will end.

Eventually.

Let's see...major problems we made it through that come to memory....

...a revolution
...a British invasion
...British burning of The White House
...Civil War
...Reconstructing the entire South
...Great Depression
...Japanese attacks
...Cold War

We turned out alright. We're still here, aren't we?

The United States is very unlikely to lose its place as the most powerful nation in the world within the next 25 years.

America is on its decline now.
When a country becomes arrogant and believes it is invincible
is when it usually falls. We had our run.

With WW2 and the world devasted we cashed in and prosperred.

The end is near now with the European Union, China, India,
and soon Russia in the next 20 years will be giving us a run for our money.

Id give USA another 200 years minimum.
But they will fall. Everyone does in the end.

i think it will take about 5 years, a superpower falls when it starts treating other nations bad... like the greek, persians, romans, british, russian
greeks treated persians badly
romans treated europeans badly
persians, well they treated everyone badly
british, well africans and indians mainly
japanese
russians treated central asians and others
americans are now treating Iraqis, Muslims and Arabs badly
so unless they change their way of treating then they will be boming downwards

I think you need to be more specific... What do you mean by America?

Do you mean the government, the money, the power and prestige, the influence?

Of course, America can stay America, but the government could be destroyed by the private sector, and American can turn into a country of Large corporations controlling everything. The NRA would rival the govt and Police, and McDonalds and Burger King would go to war (This is all in JENNIFER GOVERNMENT -great book).

I dont think America will ever fall... but thats what the Egyptians, Chinese, Romans, British, Arab, and Mongolians said... then they fell.

The difference is that we live in a very technological world, so another country with a larger army or a calvalry wont really hurt us. Since we have tehcnologies that connect us to the world, and there is espionage, it will be hard for other nations to develop the means to take America down (except nukes or chemical weapons). well thats my take on the issue atleast.

Let's see...major problems we made it through that come to memory....

...a revolution
...a British invasion
...British burning of The White House
...Civil War
...Reconstructing the entire South
...Great Depression
...Japanese attacks
...Cold War

We turned out alright. We're still here, aren't we?

for now, Britain fell and it had far more troubles than America has in it's time on top.

for now, Britain fell and it had far more troubles than America has in it's time on top.
Yeah but Britain lasted for a good long while.

Charlie Daniels Band, In America


We'll the eagle's been flying slow, and the
flag's been flying low, and a lot of people's
saying that America's fixing to fall. But
speaking just for me and some people from
Tennessee, we got a thing or two to tell
you all. This lady may have stumbled but she
ain't never fell. And if the Russians don't
believe that they can all go straight to hell.
We're gonna put her feet back on the path
of the righteousness and then God bless America
again.

And you never did think that it ever would
happen again. In America, did you? You never
did think that we'd ever get together again.
Well we damn sure fooled you. We're walking
real proud and we're talking real loud again in
America. You never did think that it ever would
happen again.

From the sound up in Long Island out to San
Francisco Bay, and ev'ry thing that's in between
them is our home. And we may have done a little
bit of fighting amongst ourselves, but you outside
people best leave us alone. Cause we'll all stick
together and you can take that to the bank.
That's the cowboys and the hippies and the rebels
and the yanks. You just go and lay your head on a
Pittsburgh Steeler fan and I think you're gonna
finally understand.

And you never did think that it ever would
happen again. In America, did you? You never
did think that we'd ever get together again.
Well we damn sure fooled you. We're walking
real proud and we're talking real loud again in
America. You never did think that it ever would
happen again.
:D

I don't think we'll fall.

Maybe we'll fade out a little. Like the Britain. My only worry is that our over-the-top military buget will end up permenantly damaging our economy. And I think that would happen within the next 10-25 years.

america will fall within at least my lifetime i reckon 1991~2060


its more likely you might not make it to 2060.

I do think that America will stand strong for a while longer, but she is loseing popularity. Standing alone is fine in smal doses, but the more we alinate ourselves from other countries, the harder it will be to recieve help from them when we need it. If we're always saying how much better we are, why should they want to help when we ask? eventualy japan, china, the EU, and others will beging gunning for our "top dog" spot in the world. And we'll fall in that sence, because we'll have no suport from other countries.

This is why I hate a good amount of american authors......

i think it will take about 5 years, a superpower falls when it starts treating other nations bad... like the greek, persians, romans, british, russian
greeks treated persians badly
romans treated europeans badly
persians, well they treated everyone badly
british, well africans and indians mainly
japanese
russians treated central asians and others
americans are now treating Iraqis, Muslims and Arabs badly
so unless they change their way of treating then they will be boming downwards

you're right... leaving iraqis to be tortured and killed by Saddam would have been much kinder.

I think you need to be more specific... What do you mean by America?

Do you mean the government, the money, the power and prestige, the influence?

Of course, America can stay America, but the government could be destroyed by the private sector, and American can turn into a country of Large corporations controlling everything. The NRA would rival the govt and Police, and McDonalds and Burger King would go to war (This is all in JENNIFER GOVERNMENT -great book).

I dont think America will ever fall... but thats what the Egyptians, Chinese, Romans, British, Arab, and Mongolians said... then they fell.

The difference is that we live in a very technological world, so another country with a larger army or a calvalry wont really hurt us. Since we have tehcnologies that connect us to the world, and there is espionage, it will be hard for other nations to develop the means to take America down (except nukes or chemical weapons). well thats my take on the issue atleast.

What I mean is when will Americas dominance of the market and international politics end. I'm not implying that the entire structure will crumble and the USA will cease to exist.

hmmm... Honestly, it is in my opinion that America will fall when the core values of her people, (not values defined by the Constitution but morals that were followed by the society of our Founding Fathers) changes completely.

America is on its decline now.
When a country becomes arrogant and believes it is invincible
is when it usually falls. We had our run.

With WW2 and the world devasted we cashed in and prosperred.

The end is near now with the European Union, China, India,
and soon Russia in the next 20 years will be giving us a run for our money.
I'll agree that we're on a decline, but I gotta draw the line somewhere. While we've had some minor regressions in the last few years, the idea that the European Union is at present anything of a threat is ridiculous. The Europeans have this economic mindset that urges them towards setting things up for "stability" rather than growth. Culturally [probably because of Feudalism], Europeans are largely concerned with subsistence rather than actual economic growth, as evidenced by their almost unanimous pseudo-socialist policies.

I'll concede that they could possibly form a viable trade threat to us if they put their minds to it [and yes, I know the EU's combined gross product is now larger than ours--for the first time ever], I don't think this is the case now. As far as world economy goes, I've seen comparatively few things come from Europe as opposed to, say, Asia or North America.

you're right... leaving iraqis to be tortured and killed by Saddam would have been much kinder.

I thought you were going after those WMD? Or was it terrorists?

;)

someone else posted a song... hehe... here's another one:

Toby Keith

Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue

American girls and American guys will always stand up and salute;
Will always recognize
When we see ol' glory flying,
There's a lot of men dead,
So we can sleep in peace at night when we lay down our head.

My daddy served in the army,
Where he lost his right eye.
But he flew a flag out in our yard 'til the day that he died.
He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me
To grow up and live happy in the land of the free.

Now this nation that I love has fallen under attack.
A mighty sucker punch came flying in from somewhere in the back.
Soon as we could see clearly through our big black eye,
Man we lit up your world like the Fourth of July.

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,
And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.
And the eagle will fly,
And there's gonna be Hell,
When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell!
It's gonna feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you...
Brought to you courtesy of the Red, White and Blue!

Oh, Justice will be served and the battle will rage.
This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed with the US of A
'Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way.

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,
And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.
And the eagle will fly,
And there's gonna be Hell,
When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell!
And it'll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you...
Brought to you courtesy of the Red, White and Blue!

Of the Red, White and Blue..
Of my Red, White and Blue...

Nah. In it for the money. Like most wars.

I imagine if we can survive until the next election and then get someone decent, or at least human, in the white house, America will be fine.

It may evolve and change, but the idea of America will be around for a good long while.

you're right... leaving iraqis to be tortured and killed by Saddam would have been much kinder.

The Iraqis as a whole were better off under Saddam then they are now.

someone else posted a song... hehe... here's another one:

Toby Keith

Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue

American girls and American guys will always stand up and salute;
Will always recognize
When we see ol' glory flying,
There's a lot of men dead,
So we can sleep in peace at night when we lay down our head.

My daddy served in the army,
Where he lost his right eye.
But he flew a flag out in our yard 'til the day that he died.
He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me
To grow up and live happy in the land of the free.

Now this nation that I love has fallen under attack.
A mighty sucker punch came flying in from somewhere in the back.
Soon as we could see clearly through our big black eye,
Man we lit up your world like the Fourth of July.

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,
And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.
And the eagle will fly,
And there's gonna be Hell,
When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell!
It's gonna feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you...
Brought to you courtesy of the Red, White and Blue!

Oh, Justice will be served and the battle will rage.
This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed with the US of A
'Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way.

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,
And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.
And the eagle will fly,
And there's gonna be Hell,
When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell!
And it'll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you...
Brought to you courtesy of the Red, White and Blue!

Of the Red, White and Blue..
Of my Red, White and Blue...


Man I hate country music. Rednecks supporting a war or ideal they barely understand.

and another (hehe)

God Bless The USA

If tomorrow all the things were gone
I'd worked for all my life,
And I had to start again
with just my children and my wife,
I'd thank my lucky stars
to be living here today,
'Cause the flag still stands for freedom
and they can't take that away.

I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.

From the lakes of Minnesota
to the hills of Tennessee,
Across the plains of Texas
from sea to shining sea.
From Detroit down to Houston
and New York to L.A.,
There's pride in every American heart
and it's time we stand and say:

I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.

I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.

you're right... leaving iraqis to be tortured and killed by Saddam would have been much kinder.
you DONT want to make this thread about the war on iraq do you????

but what i meant is, good job for the USA for freeing iraq from sadam and all the shit, but torturing in jail???
humiliating dont you think????
specially comnig from a country trying to free people from all that stuff!!!

Man I hate country music. Rednecks supporting a war or ideal they barely understand.

Man, I hate bigots who think that all rednecks are stupid.

Give it up would ya? You Americans have a tendency to think you are the only people who are free in this world.

The Iraqis as a whole were better off under Saddam then they are now.

...the majority (90%+) were happy to see me there when the US Army showed up....

When the world does, but I'm not saying not in the foreseeable future.

America has the largest and most technologically advanced military by leaps and bounds over the rest of the world. Given the actions of the administration to date, do you really think that when push comes to shove it won't be used for simple conquest and resource allocation to prevent the fall?

When America falls, we all do.
That's why it scares me so much to see America on this path of double deficit (trade and budgetary) with no apparant intent of correcting it.

The only thing that reassures me is that those at the top seem short-sighted enough that they might misjudge their own masses and be taken down internally before they do serious damage elsewhere.

Man I hate country music. Rednecks supporting a war or ideal they barely understand.

hmmm, yeah, just like i appreciate how liberals (many of whom are those rednecks you denigrate, BTW) are so in love with "freedom" yet when we free a country from a totalitarian regime -- and, here's the key, it was under the direction of a Republican president -- we're fighting an "immoral" or "illegal" war and instead of helping them start a new, freedom-based democratic government, we're imperialists.

lmao

I think the USA will collapse in my lifetime. But not from a stronger power. I think it will implode economically. I'd guess in the next 15-25 years. Perhaps sooner. I think America is her own worse enemy.

The Europeans have this economic mindset that urges them towards setting things up for "stability" rather than growth. Culturally [probably because of Feudalism], Europeans are largely concerned with subsistence rather than actual economic growth, as evidenced by their almost unanimous pseudo-socialist policies.
Or maybe - just maybe - there's some inkling of an idea over there that we live on a planet with finite resources. Hence them concentrating more on stability and sustainability than rabid, rampant growth.

As far as the question goes... 25 years practically, maybe 50 years officially. And let me be the first to say that I, for one, welcome our new (future) Canadian overlords.

...the majority (90%+) were happy to see me there when the US Army showed up....
i think that another cultural missunderstanding
hehehe
arabs are greetings people
they welcome you in
and in your case they welcomed you in and then you never mad it out
hehehe

Jesus. I mean c'mon, you think the world would'nt survive without american?
We would go down for what? 50 years? a 100? That it? And jump back up again and people will learn in history about a nation called America that was leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world but died just like Rome because X(insert reasons here).

The world will live out all nations destructions, because with the loss of every old nation another one springs up out of seemingly nowhere, to take a steady walk to the top.

Not in the foreable future will it "fall", however it may end up sharing superpower staus with other nations within the next 50-100 years.

i think it will take about 5 years, a superpower falls when it starts treating other nations bad... like the greek, persians, romans, british, russian
greeks treated persians badly
romans treated europeans badly
persians, well they treated everyone badly
british, well africans and indians mainly
japanese
russians treated central asians and others
americans are now treating Iraqis, Muslims and Arabs badly
so unless they change their way of treating then they will be boming downwards

Romans were europeens :headbang:
Ore do you only count in the blond ones :p

Man, I hate bigots who think that all rednecks are stupid.

A bigot is someone who subscribes to stereotyping other people. When represented by country music, a redneck stereotypes themselves. If you perpetuate and wish to be represented in a stereo typical way, how am I prejudiced? I am just going with what you want me to see.

Let me be a little clearer, I am talking about pop-country as it stands today. I would never say that Johnny Cash or Kenny Rogers were stupid as they did a great deal to move forward their craft.

Furthermore, having lived in the south before, I think that people who chose to represent themselves with crappy pick-up trucks, a racist flag, "Ain't Skeered" and "Git 'Er Done" stickers while bragging about living in a trailer and having a bunch of illegitmate children bring down the culture as a whole.

A "real" redneck is so called because they work the land and provide. Their a red neck because of the toiling farm work. These people I respect. Not those who take on the monniker redneck in an attempt to be country cool.

i think that another cultural missunderstanding
hehehe
arabs are greetings people
they welcome you in
and in your case they welcomed you in and then you never mad it out
hehehe
I never did like those arabs.

It will probably fall in 1 or 2 years, because of Bush. Bush is unfit to govern.

Never! The world loves capitalism. We're not superiour to any other country, just more experienced in the ways of capitalism. I find it funny when foreigners believe that we are out to rule the world and that we're a country of tyrants. Our government changes every 4 or 8 years but yet we continue to grow economically.
Of course that also means that we're going to grow politically as our influence is derived from capitalism. Are we going to get involved with a sovereign nation, conquer with an imperialistic agenda? No, however, when they make political decisions that will affect the life of all Americans, you're darn toot'n we will. We're an oil hungry nation. We're the number one consumer of oil in the world, more than the entire European Union put together. 20 million barrels a day. Why? Because we're a huge country with industry demands around the globe and because the average American works more than 20 miles (32km) away from home and then puts in an 8, 10 or 12 hour day, sometimes 7 days a week. There is no way the average American is going to ride a bicycle to and from work.
That said, our dominance in the world markets will level out when other nations step up and claim market share. Free enterprise, you have to love it unless your filling your vehicle whe fuel.

Romans were europeens :headbang:
Ore do you only count in the blond ones :p
hehehehe
i meant europeans as in iberians, gauls and the rest...

Or maybe - just maybe - there's some inkling of an idea over there that we live on a planet with finite resources. Hence them concentrating more on stability and sustainability than rabid, rampant growth.

As far as the question goes... 25 years practically, maybe 50 years officially. And let me be the first to say that I, for one, welcome our new (future) Canadian overlords.

Canadian overlords!? <shoots self>

Sorry but the power is gonig to shift back over to the Eastern World (China, India, etc, etc). I just hope India bests out China for the sake of civil rights everywhere.

Another possibility is that the entire American populace simply moves off into space to abandon a world that despises them...then returns in 20 years to conquer it :p

The Iraqis as a whole were better off under Saddam then they are now.

I'm sorry, but I just have to pull the bullshit cord on this. **Raspberry**

If you call living in mortal terror every day that your mother, father, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters could be abducted, tortured and killed with absolutely no recourse "better off" then I can't even begin to understand your mindset.

If you're talking about Iraq being more "stable" under Saddam, you have a point. But only temporarily. Sooner or later Iraq will be stable. Or, more to the point, if it isn't the only people you can blame are the fanatics who won't LET Iraq become stable. You simply CANNOT blame that on America.

We've given Iraq a chance for self-determination and that is ALWAYS a good thing.

I never did like those arabs.
and i never liked those americans

hmmm, yeah, just like i appreciate how liberals (many of whom are those rednecks you denigrate, BTW) are so in love with "freedom" yet when we free a country from a totalitarian regime -- and, here's the key, it was under the direction of a Republican president -- we're fighting an "immoral" or "illegal" war and instead of helping them start a new, freedom-based democratic government, we're imperialists.

lmao

I see the freedom in a the policestate of Iraq. Really I do. And the fact that more Iraqis have died since we took down Hussein in comparison to those who have died under his regime...fantastic! Go US! Go GWB!

Freedom is so great under things like the Patriot Act (now renewed). Really, what was I thinking (are we still allowed to do that, better to just stop thinking and listen to Patriotic music and sublimate myself that this wasn't a war about oil and money and revenge, we really wanted to free people).

If we really wanted to help them oust Saddam, we wouldn't have gone to war. There were several other options that would've caused less bloodshed.

You want to see freedom? Get a job at a news paper or magazine and print something damaging to the Bush regime using an undisclosed source. See what happens to your First Amendment "rights".

Some of you people.....
America Will fall. All nations do! Would you look at history!? Im not saying America is a timebomb. It will not collapse within at least 300 years. But it will eventually.
And if you think the USA will collapse within 5 years, which is laughable, then you need to see a doctor.

Canadian overlords!? <shoots self>

Sorry but the power is gonig to shift back over to the Eastern World (China, India, etc, etc). I just hope India bests out China for the sake of civil rights everywhere.

Another possibility is that the entire American populace simply moves off into space to abandon a world that despises them...then returns in 20 years to conquer it :p
i totaly agree

how can canadians be a superpower
i just cant imagine it, maybe they will be a suprepower, but when the world is very warm and everyone dies except canadians, baltic countries and maybe tibet.

Man I hate country music. Rednecks supporting a war or ideal they barely understand.

To be fair, I think the Toby Keith song was written about 9/11, not Iraq.

At least I don't remember hearing it until shortly after 9/11/2001. Regardless of whether it was written before 9/11 or after, though, it was used as a patriotic ballad BECAUSE of 9/11, not Iraq.

and i never liked those americans
So let's have a war. I mean a real one, like WWII, not this pansy ass crap that's going on now. Are you game?

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/shatteredunion/ :P

Seriously though, I think America will be on top for a good long while, until someone else joins us. Then we'll either have a cold war situation where we must be militarily better or a general race to be technologically, culturally, and economicaly better. I hope for the latter.

you're right... leaving iraqis to be tortured and killed by Saddam would have been much kinder.

Well that is certainly a point. But if you will let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment: over 1000 Americans, several hundred Coalition soldiers and countless Iraqis have died in Iraq, would the families of those killed agree that it was right to invade Iraq?

Anyway back to the question: America is not the 'head of the world' even now, so it's fall from said position could be rather difficult. However, no nation remains powerful for long when it has become as unpopular as the USA currently is. Sorry chaps, but your numbers coming up.

"Never send to know for whom the bell tolls...
...it tolls for thee"

Im game! Im game!
Well known fact americans dont know how to fight!

So let's have a war. I mean a real one, like WWII, not this pansy ass crap that's going on now. Are you game?
dude, we wont stand a chance
its like asking china to fight kyrgyzstan and try to guess who will win

hehehe... maybe when your not a super power anymore
hehe

Im game! Im game!
Well known fact americans dont know how to fight!
Ask a German or a Japanese guy who was around in the 40's.

To be fair, I think the Toby Keith song was written about 9/11, not Iraq.

At least I don't remember hearing it until shortly after 9/11/2001. Regardless of whether it was written before 9/11 or after, though, it was used as a patriotic ballad BECAUSE of 9/11, not Iraq.

Another example of music being misconstrued. It will be used for any pro-USA need. Like people who patriotically sing "Born in the USA" at rallies thinking it is a patriotic song.

Another possibility is that the entire American populace simply moves off into space to abandon a world that despises them...then returns in 20 years to conquer it :p
Wasn't there a book about that (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553293400/qid=1125599665/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-8021391-7500841?v=glance&s=books)? And yes, tongue-in-cheek aside, I could easily see China/India calling the shots for the next couple hundred years. So goes the endless cycle of global civilisation.

Eventually, however, it *will* be Canada's turn.

Oh yes.

It will.

It might not be until the rest of the world has been covered in water as a result of catastrophic global warming, eliminating all competition, but our day will come. And we will look out from our strongholds on top of the great Rocky Mountains...

... and wish America was still around so we could get a decent cheeseburger.

So let's have a war. I mean a real one, like WWII, not this pansy ass crap that's going on now. Are you game?

We do not need any more war! Go to the Imperial War Museum in London and look at the War Clock. More than 100 million people (1/60 of the worlds currant population) have been killed in or by wars.

Ask a German or a Japanese guy who was around in the 40's.
yeah or in the 60's from vietnam
or the 90's from somalia

We do not need any more war! Go to the Imperial War Museum in London and look at the War Clock. More than 100 million people (1/60 of the worlds currant population) have been killed in or by wars.

That's a very powerful thing to look at, just stare at the number rise for a few minutes and you realise how helpless you are.

Yes lets ask the Germans of which 90% were killed by Russians.
or the Japanese, who are even worse.

Lets go threw history. My history!
Britain allies with Germany, 1914.
both countries invade France, and drive back a Russian invasion.
America watches.
Britain and Germany attack the USA, retaking the British land.
Now the USA ruled by both countries and split accordingly.
then we conquer the world.
muahahahaha!

Ask a German or a Japanese guy who was around in the 40's.

You eman back in the days when a quarter of the American population wasn't seriously overweigt? Back in the days when you had to resort to WMD's to kill millions of innocent peoples (TWICE I might add!)?
Oh yes Americans are such wonderful people...

i think that another cultural missunderstanding
hehehe
arabs are greetings people
they welcome you in
and in your case they welcomed you in and then you never mad it out
hehehe

Umm... yeah. They were greeting us because we had freed them from a brutal, oppressive dictator. Something they could not do on their own.

Of course they're going to greet us.

We do not need any more war! Go to the Imperial War Museum in London and look at the War Clock. More than 100 million people (1/60 of the worlds currant population) have been killed in or by wars.
That's really not all that many people, is it? It's not even half the population of the USA. Just over a third actually.

Good thing about war is population control. Imagine the world was peaceful, for all eternity from the start.
Starvation and disease would be terrible..

yeah or in the 60's from vietnam
or the 90's from somalia
And Vietnam killed how many Americans vs. How many Vietnamese?

Somalia lost over 1000 fighters to a little over one hundred rangers and delta guys.

Sorry dude, if the political will is there, nobody can stop the US military. Just that the political will wasn't there for Vietnam or Somalia.

Umm... yeah. They were greeting us because we had freed them from a brutal, oppressive dictator. Something they could not do on their own.

Of course they're going to greet us.

Yes they will greet you will open gun-fire.....

You eman back in the days when a quarter of the American population wasn't seriously overweigt? Back in the days when you had to resort to WMD's to kill millions of innocent peoples (TWICE I might add!)?
Oh yes Americans are such wonderful people...
Wonderful or not, we can fight.

Well, what caused the fall of Rome and Britain?

Rome was crushed under the weight of Refugees from Germany fleeing the Huns, these Refugees eventually overwhelmed and sacked Rome itself. In a way it was taken down by an outside force as a political entity (interestingly enough, the religious arm of Rome is still and sizable force in the modern world, namely the Roman Catholic Church.)

Britain fell because it expended it's resources and population in the First World War. It just made some crummy strategic errors, and lost way more than it's economy could absorb.

The current global situation does not seem to present either situation to the United States, either a massive continental land war (somewhere) or being invaded and overrun by a foreign army.

Perhaps China and India could challenge the United States for supremacy in an interesting Counter-hegemonic revisionist power bid, but history shows us that the challenger has lost the vast bulk of recent revisionist attempts, from Napoleon, to the Kaiser, to Hitler to the Soviet Union, the revisionist states have seemed to come out on the short end of the stick every time.

I doubt the United States will fall anytime soon, power challenges will of course happen, but I doubt the result of those would be a fall.

IMHO within 10 to 25 years America will no longer be the only big kid on the block. If the EU can get it's act together she'll be up there, as will India and China. America won't have fallen per se, but that's when her massive power over the world will be effectively checked by other reasonably powerful states.

Or whenever peak oil hits. That will be when America literally falls.

the next super power i would say is the EU (if they get a grip and unite)
or china
i think india wont make it before china, i agree that they will make it, but i dont think they will watch the USA fall then.
lets also realize that alot of the countries boming today are dependent on the USA, like India, Russia (in a way), Japan, and some of the EU.
and almost all of the Arab States

Good thing about war is population control. Imagine the world was peaceful, for all eternity from the start.
Starvation and disease would be terrible..

Only for awhile. Starvation and disease only kill off the weakest of a population. The strongest survive and build new immunities to certain diseases, and find new food stuffs to survive.

War kills everyone, weak or strong, old or young, smart or not so smart, anyone and everyone that gets in the way.

Well has America ever won a war when all the arrows pointed to victory?
The Brits landed in Lisbon and fought a long war when everyone expected them to lose, when they were almost allways outnumbered and attacking, and finished in waterloo where once again they were outnumbered and surprised. That is proof of good fighting.

That's really not all that many people, is it? It's not even half the population of the USA. Just over a third actually.

Ok now perhaps I'm being a little too moral here, but would you not call 100 million early deaths a little bit tragic, wrong and downright awful....

It is people like you that make me sick! I have family in the military, hell I was MoD for several years, and we took every single death as something that should have been prevented.
If your family, your friends, every single person you know was included in that figure, would you change your stance, Mr "Oh its not that many"?

I see the freedom in a the policestate of Iraq. Really I do. And the fact that more Iraqis have died since we took down Hussein in comparison to those who have died under his regime...fantastic! Go US! Go GWB!

Freedom is so great under things like the Patriot Act (now renewed). Really, what was I thinking (are we still allowed to do that, better to just stop thinking and listen to Patriotic music and sublimate myself that this wasn't a war about oil and money and revenge, we really wanted to free people).

If we really wanted to help them oust Saddam, we wouldn't have gone to war. There were several other options that would've caused less bloodshed.

You want to see freedom? Get a job at a news paper or magazine and print something damaging to the Bush regime using an undisclosed source. See what happens to your First Amendment "rights".

Iraq is a police state because of the fanatic bastards who blow everything up.

Those Iraqi deaths you're quoting have been caused by the above fanatic bastards.

And where are your numbers that show more people have died since Saddam was toppled than he killed while he was Tyrant? Come on... put up or shut up.

The Patriot Act only went through because it wasn't a referendum. The American people would not have voted it in. It's where it is because Bush has a Republican legislature.

What other "options" were there? This ought to be priceless...

Or whenever peak oil hits. That will be when America literally falls.

so you think that arabs control the american superpowerhood???

100 million from the start of man?

Well has America ever won a war when all the arrows pointed to victory?
The Brits landed in Lisbon and fought a long war when everyone expected them to lose, when they were almost allways outnumbered and attacking, and finished in waterloo where once again they were outnumbered and surprised. That is proof of good fighting.

I assume you are talking of the founding of the Kingdom of Portugal by the British soldiers on their way home from the Second Crusade.

100 million from the start of man?
That would work out at 1000 per year. No in the last 100 years only.

Ok now perhaps I'm being a little too moral here, but would you not call 100 million early deaths a little bit tragic, wrong and downright awful....

It is people like you that make me sick! I have family in the military, hell I was MoD for several years, and we took every single death as something that should have been prevented.
If your family, your friends, every single person you know was included in that figure, would you change your stance, Mr "Oh its not that many"?
Look, I'm not happy about people dying. I'm just saying that considering all the wars fought 100 million doesn't seem like a very high number. I'm not saying it would be great to add to that number, but sometimes it's neccessary.

Thats what I guessed.
So a million a year huh?

Look, I'm not happy about people dying. I'm just saying that considering all the wars fought 100 million doesn't seem like a very high number. I'm not saying it would be great to add to that number, but sometimes it's neccessary.
Nessesary?!

I see. You prescribe to Nicholi Machiavelli's view that the end justifies the means.

How can 100 million deaths be nessesary?

The Iraqis as a whole were better off under Saddam then they are now.

with foreign soldiers prowling the nation killing anyone and everyone they deem a threat?
umm. right.

Thats what I guessed.
So a million a year huh?
Well it's slightly higher than that by now, but yeah that's about the average number of premature deaths directly related to war. That does not count those who died of starvation or countless other things as a result of the war.

Nessesary?!

I see. You prescribe to Nicholi Machiavelli's view that the end justifies the means.

How can 100 million deaths be nessesary?
Sorry, I think I missed something. The US killed 100 million?

100 million ????
how many wars happen in the last century???
i mean major ones???
WW1,2
vietnam
korea
indian pakistani war 1,2,3
Arab Israeli war1,2,3,4
gulf war 1,2

thats it ,right???

Sorry, I think I missed something. The US killed 100 million?
I didn't say the US had killed 100 million, I'm saying that that is how many have been killed in war (direct action only, many mnay more have died as a result of war) in the last 100 years. Yes the US has gone a fair way towards edging these numbers up. Hell, they managed over a million in one month once.

Folks, Red China will never even have 20% of American power. China is in an economic dead end and will collapse within the next 20 years. Sorry to dissapoint you, but there's no candidate for another superpower in sight.

100 million ????
how many wars happen in the last century???
i mean major ones???
WW1,2
vietnam
korea
indian pakistani war 1,2,3
Arab Israeli war1,2,3,4
gulf war 1,2

thats it ,right???

Actually those are just the better know about wars. Look at the Sudan at the moment, for example.

There have been over 70 wars in the last centuary or so.

I hate to say it, but violence and war is part of human nature. It is what makes us who we are. Violence was programmed into the most primitive sections of the brain, to ensure survival of the fittest. This is not to say that we should excuse every war as "human nature," but rather as a rebuttal against the pacifists that say we can eliminate war altogether... no, we really can't, although we can try damn hard and eliminate most of it.

Much to your chagrin, I'm sure, Original Poster....but I believe the correct answer is...Not in the forseeable future.

This country isn't gonna go quietly. And we have been through a hell of a lot. and the cards are stacked by the one in power, so that they tend to stay that way. Always been that way, and it always will.

And Empires have always fallen. So, too, one day, will America...and when it does, it'll fall hard, much to your joy, I'm sure...until you realize just how much of the world...and the world economy...our fall is gonna take with it!

I'm sure you wish to see America fall. And I can't say as though I blame ya, even speaking as an American. Everyone not on top always wants to see the guy on top get knocked down a few. human nature, and I harbor no animosity towards you for your obvious desire to see America fall.

I'm just not sure that you fully appreciate what our fall will precipitate, in terms of world economy. Everything has a ripple effect, and I'm not sure you will like the ripples that come your way when America does fall...not that I think it will happen anytime soon...but history says that someday, it must.

The Roman Empire fell. The British and Spanish Empires fell. The soviet Union fell. Empires never last forever. So, realistically, neither will America. But I don't think you or I will be alive to see the day of the fall.

But, as polarized as we are, politically, in this country, I can see a Civil War, possibly in our lifetimes, when too many people get too pissed off about not getting their way. When the status quo becomes intolerable to too many people. And that may precipitate the fall you so obviously desire to see.

100 million ????
how many wars happen in the last century???
i mean major ones???
WW1,2
vietnam
korea
indian pakistani war 1,2,3
Arab Israeli war1,2,3,4
gulf war 1,2

thats it ,right???
You're kidding, Right? 20th Century death tolls from war (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm)

Ah it seems I must apologise for misleading you all. I have rechecked the numbers and it is actually closer to 150 (148.7) million than 100.

In the ultimate oil crisis(15-20 years from now on, when the world reachs its second trillion of oil barrels) the whole world will have a reaaaaaly bad time but usa's will be much worse cause you depend heavily on oil, far more than any other country...

Then the world will have some shiftover in terms of economic power...

Actually those are just the better know about wars. Look at the Sudan at the moment, for example.

There have been over 70 wars in the last centuary or so.
yeah but the dead wont reach the million, believe me i know because i live next to sudan

I didn't say the US had killed 100 million, I'm saying that that is how many have been killed in war (direct action only, many mnay more have died as a result of war) in the last 100 years. Yes the US has gone a fair way towards edging these numbers up. Hell, they managed over a million in one month once.
Well then why did you ask me how 100 million deaths could be necessary? I don't even think the war in Iraq was necessary, but Afghanistan sure was. Sometimes you have to go to war.

yeah but the dead wont reach the million, believe me i know because i live next to sudan

I am quite sure that you are correct in that one. However one dead, one that could have been prevented, is still too many.

You're kidding, Right? 20th Century death tolls from war (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm)
WOW... thanks dude, thats what i was looking for.. :cool:

America has nothing TO fall. Its got no empire, and really no actual control over the rest of the world besides threats, which it isn't even supposed to use since it claims to be very pro-peace and democracy.

The only thing they can do to fall is continue to ignore global warming as if it isn't happening, because it CERTAINLY is, and while I'm not attributing all of the latest hurricane to global warming, a very statistically significant part was; the place where the hurricanes are forming has the highest water level ever known there, and thats why they are forming.

America will undermine intself with natural disasters, but other than that, I'd say it has no dominance over the rest of the world, and nothing to lose except for its reputation (not much further to go on that front, really) - even the dollar is losing strength.
While it may assume itself dominant over the rest of the world, sadly I think that is rather an illusion.

Well then why did you ask me how 100 million deaths could be necessary? I don't even think the war in Iraq was necessary, but Afghanistan sure was. Sometimes you have to go to war.
for once i finally agree with you... you should concentrate on capturing bin ladin, not on iraqs problems..

Well then why did you ask me how 100 million deaths could be necessary? I don't even think the war in Iraq was necessary, but Afghanistan sure was. Sometimes you have to go to war.
Ok, I wasn't laying the blame at any particular door, I was simply asking you how you can say that it was "nessesary" for so many people to die. And yet you avoid the question.
Yes I am sure the attack on Afganistan was required, not to kill lots of people, but to get retribution on those who had commited the awful monstrocities in the US. Fine, that I can agree with as it was trying to bring to justice those who had killed so many.

I didn't say the US had killed 100 million, I'm saying that that is how many have been killed in war (direct action only, many mnay more have died as a result of war) in the last 100 years. Yes the US has gone a fair way towards edging these numbers up. Hell, they managed over a million in one month once.

how much is freedom worth to countries without it or countries who are on the verge of losing it?

those lives were lost, at least a lot of them were, in twice repelling Germany and friends from hostile continental takeovers.

In Vietnam it was Communism tryi9ng to take over South Vietnam, and us trying to stop communism (only to be sabotaged by the Peace movement... although if we'd really, really wanted to win that conflict, our government and military could have made it so that we would have)

france also fought in vietnam

there was Mao ni China, Japan in China, Japan in Korea, USSR in half of Europe and Afghanistan (and other -stans)

Great Britain in Africa and Argentina and other places, the US in Iraq twice, Israel in the middle of the Middle East, warring with half of her neighbors (at least?).

There were Rwanda, Kosovo.

etc.

the history of the world is filled with death and destruction, and this will likely continue. When there is a positive cause, it is more bearable and sometimes even worth it.

Israel in the middle of the Middle East, warring with half of her neighbors (at least?).

even worth it.

why do i get the fealing that you think israel was defending it self??

tomorrow morning

Let's see...major problems we made it through that come to memory....

...a revolution
...a British invasion
...British burning of The White House
...Civil War
...Reconstructing the entire South
...Great Depression
...Japanese attacks
...Cold War

We turned out alright. We're still here, aren't we?


Actually that was a CANADIAN burning of the white house while we were under British rule. But make no mistake, those were Canadians. Now, as far as falling from power, I don't think the USA will fall like Rome. But if it continues in it's march to power over the world it will backfire and fail for sure. I don't forsee a major fall happening. But in stages and the USA will end up as some secondary power like Britian. Mind you, living here in the USA, I can tell you, that's not something most Americans would like to hear or want to hear at all. They have far to much pride in their country to allow themselves to even fathom that the USA would fall. There are a few Americans that would but not many.

First stage of America's fall... economic superiority is given way to China.

After that, it's anyone's guess how the rest of America's power would trancend to second or third place status. But being as America's heart is gold (the kind you can sell for cash) and is run by and for the making of gold then economics will be it's achille's heel. This much is for sure, the Mega-Corporations that run this country truly are mostly based elsewhere or have significant holding in other countries so that if the USA were to fall, the big corporations wouldn't.

I predict a fall in my lifetime. A slide to second place in 10-15 years... these things take time.

for once i finally agree with you... you should concentrate on capturing bin ladin, not on iraqs problems..

well now that we're there, we might as well help them fend off the insurgency. if the Sunni leadership can get on board, that will help and soon after that, we can leave.

as for bin laden, i would imagine we have special forces on his trail. he'd be able to see a brigade coming (though i'm no military strategist. hehe)

America is on its decline now.
When a country becomes arrogant and believes it is invincible
is when it usually falls. We had our run.

With WW2 and the world devasted we cashed in and prosperred.

The end is near now with the European Union, China, India,
and soon Russia in the next 20 years will be giving us a run for our money.
Okay, you can pick one or the other. Either a nation "has its run" and falls or it bounces back. Russia was a major power as the Russian Empire and the USSR. China was a major power for awhile as the Chineese Empire. The EU... Spain was a major power. Germany was. Italy was at one time. Austria was. England was. Denmark was. France was. They ALL were, for the most part.

I honestly don't see the United States falling within the foreseeable future. Possible? Yes. However it's also very, very unlikely.

Ok, I wasn't laying the blame at any particular door, I was simply asking you how you can say that it was "nessesary" for so many people to die. And yet you avoid the question.
Yes I am sure the attack on Afganistan was required, not to kill lots of people, but to get retribution on those who had commited the awful monstrocities in the US. Fine, that I can agree with as it was trying to bring to justice those who had killed so many.
Well I never argued that every death in every war was necessary, only that it's sometimes necessary to pile more bodies on the bonfire of war in order to solve certain problems.

why do i get the fealing that you think israel was defending it self??
Israel was defending itself. Every time. The one time the Israeli military attacked Arab armies first it was because they were massing on Israel's borders and infiltrating small groups of fighters into Israel to prepare for a major invasion. Israel acted in self defense then too.

Actually that was a CANADIAN burning of the white house while we were under British rule. But make no mistake, those were Canadians. .


Hmm, British troops burn White House in 1814, even though Washington had little strategic value - the thriving port of Baltimore was much more important. However, as capital of the nation, the British hoped that its burning would have a psychological impact on the will of the Americans to continue the conflict. Wrong again. When did Canada win it's independence? 1864, 50 years later. Hard to believe that it was Canadians that burnned the White House.

america will fall when hell freezes so the end of life on earth as we know it but it will fall then

but then again mardi gras is ruined so wats next...GOVERNMENT o wait its always been corupt

.

as for bin laden, i would imagine we have special forces on his trail. he'd be able to see a brigade coming (though i'm no military strategist. hehe)

I'm sure our special forces know exactly where he is. I find it interesting though, that Bin Laden's father and G.W. Bush's father are business associates, rather were before the attacks. Both are members of the Carlyle Group. And for you fellow conspiracy theorists, the Carlyle Group is the business organization that truely runs the world. They hold all the puppet strings.

I don't think America will fall in the next few months, but the end is near. With the increase in gas prices in the US (which Americans have no right to complain about compared to Europe), the money invested in the war and the other policies of President Bush, Amercia is very economiclly weak. It's on the verge of an economic depression. When that happens, America will not be able to maintain it's control over the world.

This isn't an America-bashing post, I just want to ask you guys when you think the USA's dominance over the world will end.
The US aren't exactly dominating the earth. They wouldn't stand a chance in a full scale war against EU+Asia.
Not that it will ever happen but USA simply aren't as strong as they would like to think.

I don't think America will fall in the next few months, but the end is near. With the increase in gas prices in the US (which Americans have no right to complain about compared to Europe), the money invested in the war and the other policies of President Bush, Amercia is very economiclly weak. It's on the verge of an economic depression. When that happens, America will not be able to maintain it's control over the world.

Name one instance in where we are economically weak.

Israel was defending itself. Every time. The one time the Israeli military attacked Arab armies first it was because they were massing on Israel's borders and infiltrating small groups of fighters into Israel to prepare for a major invasion. Israel acted in self defense then too.
4 wars occured between arabs and israel,
1948: declaration of israel on arabic palestinian lands (we had to fight)
1956: France,Britian, Israel attacked egypt for taking the suez canal back
1967: israel stricked on all arab airforces, conquring golan hights, west bank, sinai and gaza (almost achieving there dream of a country from the nile to elphurate river in iraq)
1973:egypt and syria attacking israel to free their occupied lands, cease fire signed after arab coalition forces saw american flags over tanks they faught....
then peace was signed, later israel attacked lebanon for no reason, and heavily bombed the paris of the east beirut.

4 wars occured between arabs and israel,
1948: declaration of israel on arabic palestinian lands (we had to fight)
1956: France,Britian, Israel attacked egypt for taking the suez canal back
1967: israel stricked on all arab airforces, conquring golan hights, west bank, sinai and gaza (almost achieving there dream of a country from the nile to elphurate river in iraq)
1973:egypt and syria attacking israel to free their occupied lands, cease fire signed after arab coalition forces saw american flags over tanks they faught....
then peace was signed, later israel attacked lebanon for no reason, and heavily bombed the paris of the east beirut.
Emir Feisal gave lands west of the Jordan to the Jews. I beleive that was in 1919.

Since the establishment of Israel, every nation in the region has made it their business to eradicate them. Israel needs to defend itself. In almost every case Arabs invaded Israel and got their asses handed to them. Israel conquered territory to buffer itself from future arab invasions. If you'd quit teasing the pitbull you won't lose any more fingers.

Name one instance in where we are economically weak.

*great depression
*1973 oil crisis

And just how does that make us weak now?

I think that the U.S.A. won't collapse abruptly, but go down more slowly, it's military is getting too stretched by occupation of Iraq and Afganistan (according to lead U.S military advisors I heard on the news), and the economy is weakening because the dollar's getting too weak due to so much importing compared to exporting, and because Bush lowered Oil prices for the citizens the reliance on oil'll make it all the worse when Oil runs out.

I'm sure our special forces know exactly where he is.
That's right. That's why they haven't done anything in nearly 4 years. Geez... -_-'

Name one instance in where we are economically weak.
For instance, that your trade deficit is around $450 billion?

Emir Feisal gave lands west of the Jordan to the Jews. I beleive that was in 1919.

Since the establishment of Israel, every nation in the region has made it their business to eradicate them. Israel needs to defend itself. In almost every case Arabs invaded Israel and got their asses handed to them. Israel conquered territory to buffer itself from future arab invasions. If you'd quit teasing the pitbull you won't lose any more fingers.

well thats the only thing we are capable of doing
the problem is that the americans dont understand what arabs cherish...

in wars we NEVER play it dirty (thats why we loose alot)
we are very religious people, just like indians are spiritual, italians are romantic, and americans work people...

so we cant accept the fact of a foreign superpower giving our HOLY lands to non arabs (and i mean by "our" as in muslim and christian arabs).

by that, they will be destroying our lives... the arab israeli conflict is 100% religous for both sides, and we hate it when we see americans blindly support israel... and not acting as a superpower, infact usa is acting as a puppet country runned by israel.

You eman back in the days when a quarter of the American population wasn't seriously overweigt? Back in the days when you had to resort to WMD's to kill millions of innocent peoples (TWICE I might add!)?
Oh yes Americans are such wonderful people...

I assume (which I am forced to do, given the muddled nature of your post) that you're talking about the atom bombs.

And if so, you need to learn your history. The two atom bombs killed roughly 200,000 people, not millions.

"'Tis better to remain silent and have others think you a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt."

It's amusing that ANYONE voted that America is 'never going to fall'. All powerful nations fall at one point or another - why should America be any different?

Unless you believe that Americans are some kind of master race, which wouldn't suprise me when considering the attitude of some meat heads on here.

Yes they will greet you will open gun-fire.....

Yeah. Right.

See, the only problem with your post is that they, you know, didn't. They danced with us in the streets.

I think that the U.S.A. won't collapse abruptly, but go down more slowly, it's military is getting too stretched by occupation of Iraq and Afganistan (according to lead U.S military advisors I heard on the news), and the economy is weakening because the dollar's getting too weak due to so much importing compared to exporting, and because Bush lowered Oil prices for the citizens the reliance on oil'll make it all the worse when Oil runs out.

You misinterpreted what you heard on the news. Our entire military is not stretched thin, just the troops we have in Iraq and Afganistan. We have military deployed all over the world and I would love for them all to come home and defend our borders instead of yours. Let them spend the billions of dollars in revenue in our country instead of yours. I'll bet we save a bunch on fuel too.

You misinterpreted what you heard on the news. Our entire military is not stretched thin, just the troops we have in Iraq and Afganistan. We have military deployed all over the world and I would love for them all to come home and defend our borders instead of yours. Let them spend the billions of dollars in revenue in our country instead of yours. I'll bet we save a bunch on fuel too.

exactly

why doesnt USA just minds it own business, thats what made alot of empires fall, they were acting as a superpower, then all of a sudden cracked.

I didn't say the US had killed 100 million, I'm saying that that is how many have been killed in war (direct action only, many mnay more have died as a result of war) in the last 100 years. Yes the US has gone a fair way towards edging these numbers up. Hell, they managed over a million in one month once.

What are you talking about here? When did Americans kill a million people in a month?

You misinterpreted what you heard on the news. Our entire military is not stretched thin, just the troops we have in Iraq and Afganistan. We have military deployed all over the world and I would love for them all to come home and defend our borders instead of yours. Let them spend the billions of dollars in revenue in our country instead of yours. I'll bet we save a bunch on fuel too.


Ah, the self-righteous statements begin. Did it ever once occur to you that the US quite possibly holds bases around the world to further its own interests?

Unless you believe that Americans are some kind of master race, which wouldn't suprise me when considering the attitude of some meat heads on here.

In a sense, I think we are a master race. Not a white race or a black or yellow race, but we are a mixture of all races. We're Brits, and Chinese and Russian and African. You name it, we are it. Can any other nation say that.

well thats the only thing we are capable of doing
the problem is that the americans dont understand what arabs cherish...

in wars we NEVER play it dirty (thats why we loose alot)
we are very religious people, just like indians are spiritual, italians are romantic, and americans work people...

so we cant accept the fact of a foreign superpower giving our HOLY lands to non arabs (and i mean by "our" as in muslim and christian arabs).

by that, they will be destroying our lives... the arab israeli conflict is 100% religous for both sides, and we hate it when we see americans blindly support israel... and not acting as a superpower, infact usa is acting as a puppet country runned by israel.
Sending kids with bombs into Israeli towns to blow up civilians isnt dirty? Driving car bombs into shi'ite crowds isn't dirty?

Arabs usually fight dirty from what I've seen.

I don't find religiosity a virtue, but rather a vice. It divides people and causes more conflict.

What defines your "holy" lands? Is Dearborn, Michigan part of your holy lands because alot of arab muslims live there?

In a sense, I think we are a master race. Not a white race or a black or yellow race, but we are a mixture of all races. We're Brits, and Chinese and Russian and African. You name it, we are it. Can any other nation say that.

There are many multi-national nations, among which include Singapore, Canada, Mauritius, etc.

Ah, the self-righteous statements begin. Did it ever once occur to you that the US quite possibly holds bases around the world to further its own interests?

Maybe so, but are any of the countries we are in actively trying to get us out. No, they know very well the economic value of having us around. If you all hate the US so much, why aren't you protesting your governments out oust us from your countries.

exactly

why doesnt USA just minds it own business, thats what made alot of empires fall, they were acting as a superpower, then all of a sudden cracked.

tell that to the Shi'a and Kurds, the 80% of Iraqis who are no longer black sheep in their own country.

Maybe so, but are any of the countries we are in actively trying to get us out. No, they know very well the economic value of having us around. If you all hate the US so much, why aren't you protesting your governments out oust us from your countries.

1) There are always costs and benefits of any expenditure.
2) Stop assuming I hate the US. Grow up and accept criticism without labelling it all as anti-americanism.
3) There are movements in various countries to see US forces removed. In every country that I have been to that has a US base, there has been some group, small or large, that wants to see the US leave. To name but two, Okinawa and South Korea have large movements against the US presence there, despite economic benefits that might arise.

1) There are always costs and benefits of any expenditure.
2) Stop assuming I hate the US. Grow up and accept criticism without labelling it all as anti-americanism.
3) There are movements in various countries to see US forces removed. In every country that I have been to that has a US base, there has been some group, small or large, that wants to see the US leave. To name but two, Okinawa and South Korea have large movements against the US presence there, despite economic benefits that might arise.

Neither of those movements comprise a majority of the population. I've served in both places and the majority of people there love us.

Neither of those movements comprise a majority of the population. I've served in both places and the majority of people there love us.

I never said majority. I said large movements- implying influential, which they are.

More criticism towards your statements, Isle of East America:
Our entire military is not stretched thin, just the troops we have in Iraq and Afganistan.
Oh, really? Last time I checked, the Anti-Catastrophe units couldn't help in the areas affected by Katrina because they were in Iraq.

America will cease to be a dominant power either through massive economic foolishness such as not being able to service the massive deficit and high tech edges like computing or aerospace, or the rise of competing superpowers that are able to maintain their own cutting edge research and development without America, or both.

America could turn into a third world ghetto in no time at all.

Thing is, you bashers out there won't like a world in which Uncle Sam is not patrolling the world's oceans. Plenty of folks ready to raise the cost of world trade, and with massive dislocation of external economies your internal economies would go to heck.

''You misinterpreted what you heard on the news. Our entire military is not stretched thin, just the troops we have in Iraq and Afganistan. We have military deployed all over the world and I would love for them all to come home and defend our borders instead of yours. Let them spend the billions of dollars in revenue in our country instead of yours. I'll bet we save a bunch on fuel too.''

He was saying that the U.S. millitary was now stretched so much that it would be incapable of the occupation of another country, even if it posed a threat, i.e. Iran (not saying it is posing a threat, just an example). And there are no American soldiers defending my borders.

Sending kids with bombs into Israeli towns to blow up civilians isnt dirty? Driving car bombs into shi'ite crowds isn't dirty?

Arabs usually fight dirty from what I've seen.

I don't find religiosity a virtue, but rather a vice. It divides people and causes more conflict.

What defines your "holy" lands? Is Dearborn, Michigan part of your holy lands because alot of arab muslims live there?


dude that is sooo nieve....
point 1: holy land as in great significance historically (bethleham, Dome of the rock, Al Aqsa Mosque), and i think i did point out that we are fighting for holy lands of christians as well...

point 2: i just remembered something, arabs did fight dirty when the british tricked them with the ottoman deal in ww1, and they tricked the crusaders when salahdin broke the cease fire several times, and the also broke it with the spanish in morocco, and the famouse demonstration that happened in egypt, when the british told them to demonstrat freely for independence, then shot the demonstrators...do i need to say more???

point3: we dont send kids to blow there selves up, its usualy teenagers that have lost their entire family and houses by israeli forces, so they volunteer.

point4: the religious thing, thats just something youll never understand because you are not an arab....

arabs are religious for several reasons, they witnessed ALL prophets, moses, jesus, abraham, isaac, ishmail, mohamed.. they witnessed them all, and they have been fughting most of their history to protect these parts, now arabs are weak for the first time in their history....

and our governments unable to protect the holy places in the near east, and we are helpless. and in addition to make things worse, we have the only superpower in the world helping the zionists, because they have more influence on american media and congress....

so how bullcrap is that????

There are many multi-national nations, among which include Singapore, Canada, Mauritius, etc.

Not to mention Britain - mix of Celtish, Roman, Saxon, Norman, Viking and of courses more recently, African Indian and Pakistani.

Ok now perhaps I'm being a little too moral here, but would you not call 100 million early deaths a little bit tragic, wrong and downright awful....

It is people like you that make me sick! I have family in the military, hell I was MoD for several years, and we took every single death as something that should have been prevented.
If your family, your friends, every single person you know was included in that figure, would you change your stance, Mr "Oh its not that many"?

A million deaths is a statistic. A single death is a tragedy.

More criticism towards your statements, Isle of East America:

Oh, really? Last time I checked, the Anti-Catastrophe units couldn't help in the areas affected by Katrina because they were in Iraq.

Check again. Last I checked we have over 1.3 million in the active armed services and less than a tenth of those are in Iraq. Our state disasters are handled by the State National Guards which is around half the size of the active services.

Stop using first person, no-one's a country.

point3: we dont send kids to blow there selves up, its usualy teenagers that have lost their entire family and houses by israeli forces, so they volunteer.
I'm sorry, but that shows you support terrorism. It really doesn't matter who are the suicide bombers, but that your targets are rarely military. In my book, that's fighting dirty.

I'm disappointed. I thought Islam was supposed to promote peace, that most muslims followed that path, and that terrorists were the most extreme branches, and that they didn't share the same vision of Islam than most of the believers. I guess I was wrong...

-----

And East America, that doesn't change the fact that the Anti-Catastrophe units are still in Iraq. I even read it from American press.

Sooner or later China will overtake us (I almost said take us over). It's happening right now will outsourcing.

America's fall can not be accurately predicted at this time. There has never been a country quite like ours in recorded history, the thing that will keep the U.S. going for longer than most monarchies is the input of so many people in the political running of our country. With that, we have the ability to change, and bend to problems that a country with 1 or only a few rulers would fall to.


If that makes any sense

Im game! Im game!
Well known fact americans dont know how to fight!


Dude! I *!@& Spankin Wanna Wrm You're Hiny Ya European Son of a vienerechnitzel! We Gown Fite Til We Get Hit By A G*DD@n Hrricane!

dude that is sooo nieve....
point 1: holy land as in great significance historically (bethleham, Dome of the rock, Al Aqsa Mosque), and i think i did point out that we are fighting for holy lands of christians as well...

point 2: i just remembered something, arabs did fight dirty when the british tricked them with the ottoman deal in ww1, and they tricked the crusaders when salahdin broke the cease fire several times, and the also broke it with the spanish in morocco, and the famouse demonstration that happened in egypt, when the british told them to demonstrat freely for independence, then shot the demonstrators...do i need to say more???

point3: we dont send kids to blow there selves up, its usualy teenagers that have lost their entire family and houses by israeli forces, so they volunteer.

point4: the religious thing, thats just something youll never understand because you are not an arab....

arabs are religious for several reasons, they witnessed ALL prophets, moses, jesus, abraham, isaac, ishmail, mohamed.. they witnessed them all, and they have been fughting most of their history to protect these parts, now arabs are weak for the first time in their history....

and our governments unable to protect the holy places in the near east, and we are helpless. and in addition to make things worse, we have the only superpower in the world helping the zionists, because they have more influence on american media and congress....

so how bullcrap is that????
1) Jerusalem has just as much if not more significance to the Jews, and no, you're not fighting for holy lands of the Christians, unless you mean that you are fighting to take over the holy lands of the Christians. Most of the christians I know have no problem with Israel's control of the region.

2) So now you do fight dirty. I won't call you a liar, I'll be charitable and say you just forgot.

3) Who cares if a teenager volunteered to blow up a bunch of schoolkids and working folks. He's still a piece of shit as is anyone who helps him or admires him.

4) There are plenty of things you'll never understand because you are an Arab. You'll never understand that the US backs Israel because it's an advanced western-style democracy. You'll never understand that the root causes of your problems stem from your culture.

The fact is that while the world has progressed toward democracy, enlightenment and science Arab devotion to the past has caused them to stagnate and degenerate. There are fewer books translated into Arabic each year than there are books translated from Spanish. That means that your culture has closed the door to foreign ideas. When you slam the door on the rest of the world you fall behind in every way. You've chosen infereority and envy over progress and prosperity. Why would I sympathize with your people?

I'm sorry, but that shows you support terrorism. It really doesn't matter who are the suicide bombers, but that your targets are rarely military. In my book, that's fighting dirty.

I'm disappointed. I thought Islam was supposed to promote peace, that most muslims followed that path, and that terrorists were the most extreme branches, and that they didn't share the same vision of Islam than most of the believers. I guess I was wrong...

-----

And East America, that doesn't change the fact that the Anti-Catastrophe units are still in Iraq. I even read it from American press.


your kiding, right????

in my book, which is the book that is not influenced by wrong media like the NBC, CNN, ABC etc... and that isnt thousands of miles from the scenario, it is described as defence, or revenge...

i disagree killing civilians and everything... but i wouldnt call it terrorism.

this is the same scenario that happened in the american fight for independence

did you see mel gibsons movie "the patriot"????
would you consider him killing british soldiers as an act of terrorism or patriotism???

same issue back here!!!

A million deaths is a statistic. A single death is a tragedy.
Josef Stalin. Good quote. And in response to the American Downfall, id say its already began...you're forces are too spread out al over the world trying to maintain ''internation peace'' even though the areas you entered have either been peaceful for a very long time (Germany) or were beaceful before you got there (Middle East). If someone like the Chinese was to attack today with ground troops, Id say America would fall within a matter of weeks, if not days...

This isn't an America-bashing post

Sounds like it to me.

I just want to ask you guys when you think the USA's dominance over the world will end.

When lose all our money, our economy fails, thus ending several other economies and bringing down a few other countries. Trust me, America's domiance over the world, if you even want to call it that, will never cease to exist.

What do people reckon to the possibility of America in the future sort of somehow splitting into two, roughly along republican and democrat lines? I mean, from an external viewpoint the two sides seem to be so different as to be separate countries. There are plenty of ways the gap could be widened further; more charges of electoral irregularities in the next election, more unpopular wars, accusations of an anti-christian agenda and so on. You could add in external pressures to increase the tension, oil crises and so on. Introduce some charismatic individuals on one side or both. Could anything come out of this scenario, a secession or even civil war?

1) Jerusalem has just as much if not more significance to the Jews, and no, you're not fighting for holy lands of the Christians, unless you mean that you are fighting to take over the holy lands of the Christians. Most of the christians I know have no problem with Israel's control of the region.

2) So now you do fight dirty. I won't call you a liar, I'll be charitable and say you just forgot.

3) Who cares if a teenager volunteered to blow up a bunch of schoolkids and working folks. He's still a piece of shit as is anyone who helps him or admires him.

4) There are plenty of things you'll never understand because you are an Arab. You'll never understand that the US backs Israel because it's an advanced western-style democracy. You'll never understand that the root causes of your problems stem from your culture.

The fact is that while the world has progressed toward democracy, enlightenment and science Arab devotion to the past has caused them to stagnate and degenerate. There are fewer books translated into Arabic each year than there are books translated from Spanish. That means that your culture has closed the door to foreign ideas. When you slam the door on the rest of the world you fall behind in every way. You've chosen infereority and envy over progress and prosperity. Why would I sympathize with your people?

I recommend you read Michael Moor's 'Dude, where's my country', The U.S. does stand for democracy and civil liberty, but not perfectly. There have been several occasions when the U.S. government has supported dictators that support the U.S. over democracies, i.e. Cambodia just aftter the Veitnam war.

Depends by what you mean by fall.

When Rome fell, the empire ceased to, exist.

When the British Empire fell, Britain still existed as a powerful nation.

I don't think the USA will fall like Rome, but will eventually lose power, probably to China.

But there will probably always be an America in some form, even if less powerful then it is today.

Doubtful to china... given the rampent governmental corruption and the increasing standard of living the people are aquiring.. its only a matter of time before the pressures of globalism and a rising economy force the communist government to collapse.. if this happens.. i think that will dramatically effect the growth of china.. while they are growing fast today.. they are still off from comparable to the United States.. I would look more to the EU as a whole unit growing (even given their economoic hardship now). If privitization takes hold and they move more captialistic... we may see some real competition for the United States

What do people reckon to the possibility of America in the future sort of somehow splitting into two, roughly along republican and democrat lines? I mean, from an external viewpoint the two sides seem to be so different as to be separate countries. There are plenty of ways the gap could be widened further; more unpopular wars

Democrats usually don't start unpopular wars, not including Vietnam War, which in itself was a disgrace to the upper echleon of the U.S. military. Ever since then, the U.N. has supported our military actions and even have backed us up. Since, the Iraq invasion, started by a Republican, the U.N. rarely seems to be backing up our military actions.

1) Jerusalem has just as much if not more significance to the Jews, and no, you're not fighting for holy lands of the Christians, unless you mean that you are fighting to take over the holy lands of the Christians. Most of the christians I know have no problem with Israel's control of the region.

2) So now you do fight dirty. I won't call you a liar, I'll be charitable and say you just forgot.

3) Who cares if a teenager volunteered to blow up a bunch of schoolkids and working folks. He's still a piece of shit as is anyone who helps him or admires him.

4) There are plenty of things you'll never understand because you are an Arab. You'll never understand that the US backs Israel because it's an advanced western-style democracy. You'll never understand that the root causes of your problems stem from your culture.

The fact is that while the world has progressed toward democracy, enlightenment and science Arab devotion to the past has caused them to stagnate and degenerate. There are fewer books translated into Arabic each year than there are books translated from Spanish. That means that your culture has closed the door to foreign ideas. When you slam the door on the rest of the world you fall behind in every way. You've chosen infereority and envy over progress and prosperity. Why would I sympathize with your people?

im not asking your sympathy...
over 10% of arabs are christians, my best friend is a christian, and he hates the idea of a non-arab taking his land.... in our "door slamed" part of the world, arabs are muslims and christians, being an arab is Speaking Arabic, it has nothing to do with religion, its an identity...

and about the door slamed thing, if we did slam the door to the modern world, how come im using a lap top????
and daily ride my car to go to college, and use the lift, did u even see how our cities look like???

did you ever see dubai, beirut, cairo, abu dhabi, tunis, algiers, alexandria????

i wont disagree with the democracy thing, we do need some developments in that area, but they are happening, next week, egypt will have its first free election, yemeni president has resigned to make a democratic state, saudi arabia has finaly made the sheikh counsel (like the congress), lebanon are is already a democracy,

and how do you think we fight dirty????

i was telling you that stuff about the british and shit as in a sarcastic way!!!!

one last thing, we have a population of arab jews in the arab world....

What do people reckon to the possibility of America in the future sort of somehow splitting into two, roughly along republican and democrat lines? I mean, from an external viewpoint the two sides seem to be so different as to be separate countries. There are plenty of ways the gap could be widened further; more charges of electoral irregularities in the next election, more unpopular wars, accusations of an anti-christian agenda and so on. You could add in external pressures to increase the tension, oil crises and so on. Introduce some charismatic individuals on one side or both. Could anything come out of this scenario, a secession or even civil war?

they really arn't all the seperate.. because both democrats and republicans are catchallparties... so even within them there are hugh spectrums.. given the political enviornment if the Democrats dont make changes you may see that party split and a rise of a new (propbably more leftist) party will come to power.. but how would the country split anywya.. if you look at a map given political differences, blue states and split on the east and west coasts while the red states rule the heartland... they coudln't split... not viably anyway

your kiding, right????

in my book, which is the book that is not influenced by wrong media like the NBC, CNN, ABC etc... and that isnt thousands of miles from the scenario, it is described as defence, or revenge...

i disagree killing civilians and everything... but i wouldnt call it terrorism.

this is the same scenario that happened in the american fight for independence

did you see mel gibsons movie "the patriot"????
would you consider him killing british soldiers as an act of terrorism or patriotism???

same issue back here!!!
Three points:

- Heh, you think I'm American. I'm not, so I'm not influenced by that kind of media. Defense? Civilians don't hurt anyone (unless you strap them explosives and send them running towards a crowd, like terrorists do). Revenge? You have no right to kill civilians because their rulers wronged you.
- Fine, killing civilians is not terrorism, according to you. Then, it's cold-blooded (most of the time) murder.
- And yes, I saw "The Patriot", and I regret to tell you that this scenario has NOTHING to do with it. You said it yourself, Mel Gibson was killing British soldiers, not civilians. In your situation, if the terrorists just targetted soldiers instead, only THEN it'd be the same issue.

next week, egypt will have its first free election,
What's the date? Just interested

Three points:

- Heh, you think I'm American. I'm not, so I'm not influenced by that kind of media. Defense? Civilians don't hurt anyone (unless you strap them explosives and send them running towards a crowd, like terrorists do). Revenge? You have no right to kill civilians because their rulers wronged you.
- Fine, killing civilians is not terrorism, according to you. Then, it's cold-blooded (most of the time) murder.
- And yes, I saw "The Patriot", and I regret to tell you that this scenario has NOTHING to do with it. You said it yourself, Mel Gibson was killing British soldiers, not civilians. In your situation, if the terrorists just targetted soldiers instead, only THEN it'd be the same issue.

so where are you from Wingarde???

Three points:

- Heh, you think I'm American. I'm not, so I'm not influenced by that kind of media. Defense? Civilians don't hurt anyone (unless you strap them explosives and send them running towards a crowd, like terrorists do). Revenge? You have no right to kill civilians because their rulers wronged you.
- Fine, killing civilians is not terrorism, according to you. Then, it's cold-blooded (most of the time) murder.
- And yes, I saw "The Patriot", and I regret to tell you that this scenario has NOTHING to do with it. You said it yourself, Mel Gibson was killing British soldiers, not civilians. In your situation, if the terrorists just targetted soldiers instead, only THEN it'd be the same issue.

agreed.. you cannot compare the revolution to what is happening in the Middle east.. American colonists never went into Bristish cities and bombed innocent women and children (as their PRIMARY target no less) this is not patriotism... or even religion.. its plain out murder

What's the date? Just interested

7 september 2005

very exiting for me

dude that is sooo nieve....
point 1: holy land as in great significance historically (bethleham, Dome of the rock, Al Aqsa Mosque), and i think i did point out that we are fighting for holy lands of christians as well...

You're not fighting for me matey boy. No Christians I know support the suicide bombers et al. I dearly wish Muslims would stop saying this - just because Arafat spouted this nonsense doesn't make it true.

Define 'fall'. When D.C. is a wasteland? When we are occupied, or when we jsut aren't the world superpower?

Argentina, and I'm Catholic, just in case you're wondering.

Do you have anything to say against my arguments? You still haven't responded the one about Islam, in addition to the ones of my last post, that is.

im not asking your sympathy...
over 10% of arabs are christians, my best friend is a christian, and he hates the idea of a non-arab taking his land.... in our "door slamed" part of the world, arabs are muslims and christians, being an arab is Speaking Arabic, it has nothing to do with religion, its an identity...

Then how about saying you're doing it for Arabs, not for Christians etc.? By saying you're fighting for Christians you include me and a gazillion other people who want no part of your actions.

agreed.. you cannot compare the revolution to what is happening in the Middle east.. American colonists never went into Bristish cities and bombed innocent women and children (as their PRIMARY target no less) this is not patriotism... or even religion.. its plain out murder

good thing pointing out the bad things but tell me, then what else can they do???

the scenario is like this

Israel : strongest weapon, Nuclear missiles.
Fully equiped army, with modern tanks,
and destroying the land that was once yours..

Palestine: strongest weapon is a bazuka
random clans that seek revenge
and are killing mostly innocent civilians..

dude that is sooo nieve....
point 1: holy land as in great significance historically (bethleham, Dome of the rock, Al Aqsa Mosque), and i think i did point out that we are fighting for holy lands of christians as well...

Unlike the religion of Islam (to their great disadvantage) the Christian Religions have religious leaders (like the pope) to speak for them in one voice. As far as i can tell.. not one has expressed any support for these acts of terrorism in the so called "defense" for the holy land.

your kiding, right????

in my book, which is the book that is not influenced by wrong media like the NBC, CNN, ABC etc... and that isnt thousands of miles from the scenario, it is described as defence, or revenge...

i disagree killing civilians and everything... but i wouldnt call it terrorism.

this is the same scenario that happened in the american fight for independence

did you see mel gibsons movie "the patriot"????
would you consider him killing british soldiers as an act of terrorism or patriotism???

same issue back here!!!
The American war for independence was an organized rebellion of all thirteen original colonies, with even a list of grievances sent to King George. They fought and killed British soldiers, not civilians as the insurgents in Iraq are. While the British killed colonists, they killed combatants that aligned themselves with the uprising, not women and children.

As was said, the targets of terrorist's bombs are rarely military. That is terrorism, or murder, whichever you prefer. While killing combatants is still killing, it is not the homicidal murder of an innocent.

post
I doubt it. There have been two major political parties since before the country we know even existed. The Federalists and Anti-Federalists argued over the Constitution. The one thing that America has taken pride in since its third president, Jefferson, who was of a different party than Washington and Adams, was how easily and peacefully power could be passed. No other nation at the time thought it was even remotely possible, especially since European history is wracked with wars due to power struggles.


As for the original question, it will happen. It did with Greece. It did with Rome. It did with Napoleon and the French, The Spanish, the English, and the Soviets. Even Germany and Japan good a good imperialist run at their peaks in WWII. And it will happen with America. The only questions are when and how. Hopefully, it will be peacefully, as any kind of assault deadly and overwhelming enough to defeat the by-far strongest nation in the world would most likely leave the country in total ruins.

Over time, the European Union is inching closer and closer to a full-fledged Confederacy. China, if they come up with the necessary raw supplies (their oil reserves are nothing and their drill sites are drying) is poised to be quite a power. If the Middle Eastern nations were to finally unite themselves under Islam (probably the only thing that would allow most Middle Eastern groups to set aside differences) would be not only powerful, but a major world player with some 3/4 of the world's oil. I wouldn't toss India or Brazil aside, either.

You're not fighting for me matey boy. No Christians I know support the suicide bombers et al. I dearly wish Muslims would stop saying this - just because Arafat spouted this nonsense doesn't make it true.

what nonsense???

did we end up defining "fall"

7 september 2005

very exiting for me

yeah, that's good news. now do your duty and VOTE!

Before i say what i think, dosnt anyone else find it funny that, we all say we're taking freedom to iraq and yet, the very first parliament was in iraw, 2000 BC. Ironic eh?


Anyway, america falling.

America is VERY simerler to the romans, they have the eagle as there symbol, there the worlds only superpower , And, at there countrys founding, they were feircly patriotic.


Now, the romans fell because of a lot of reasons, EG christianity and the fact the world hated them.
But, the main reason rome fell was, when rome was founded, people did things for ROME, rome was important, you sacrificed yourself for rome. After 200 years, people began to think about themselves, the family unit crumbled, and as a result, rome crumbled, it became weak, noone wanted to join the army, why die for a flag ?!!?!!?!

As a result, rome had to recruit mercanarys, who were no where good as legenaries etc, and , rome died.

Now, in america, the same thing is happeneing, the world is slowly starting to hate it, the unity of americans is falling, and , no matter how powerful your armies are, your politics is what kills a country.

Unless america changes, it WILL die like rome, it will weaken itself because people take advantage (cough corporations cough) and, the USA gets weaker, the population divides (western and eastern roman empire) and then the rest of the world destroys it.

America is starting on the road to that, id give it no more then 100 years untill the stars and stripes are gone, what you must realise is that, america has only recently become a superpower, the last 60 years, if you come to power that fast, you lose it fast, look at the mongol empire, would you beleive one day mongolia was the worlds superpower!?!?!? no, you woudent beleive it but, ghengis khan made it so, fast.

and lost it, fast. For the record though ,i do love america. not hate it.

Define 'fall'. When D.C. is a wasteland? When we are occupied, or when we jsut aren't the world superpower?
That's what I was thinking. If you think about it there are really no external threats to America that could ensure its "fall" if you define it as occupation or annexation. Even if China or Russia become major powers it would take a daring invader to make an attempt on the US (what is it - something like 200 million firearms in civilian hands?) I suppose you could conceive a situation where a canny invader was able to smuggle nukes into the country, position them under all the major cities and hold the country to ransom.

good thing pointing out the bad things but tell me, then what else can they do???

the scenario is like this

Israel : strongest weapon, Nuclear missiles.
Fully equiped army, with modern tanks,
and destroying the land that was once yours..

Palestine: strongest weapon is a bazuka
random clans that seek revenge
and are killing mostly innocent civilians..

Didn't India defeat the British Empire using non-violent metods ? Gandi ? You get more power through use of international pressure then through suicide bombers. If the palestineans used only non-violent methods of protest.. garanteed Isreal would be gone for Palestines land by now.. but because Palestine also makes itself look villianous.. Israels actions are justified.

Many nations have fought occupiers without sending suicide bombers into schools and night clubs... this is why Palestine has been occupeid for so long.. and as long as Hamas has influence.. they will continue to be occupied

Now that world economies are so intertwined, the USA will only 'fall' when other nations do.

However, the USA's economic dominance will probably eventually lose out to China. However, I can't decide if the USA or Chinese governments would be more responsible with this power.

Unlike the religion of Islam (to their great disadvantage) the Christian Religions have religious leaders (like the pope) to speak for them in one voice. As far as i can tell.. not one has expressed any support for these acts of terrorism in the so called "defense" for the holy land.

are we gonna turn this a religious argument?????
is nation states about religious differences???

Didn't India defeat the British Empire using non-violent metods ? Gandi ? You get more power through use of international pressure then through suicide bombers. If the palestineans used only non-violent methods of protest.. garanteed Isreal would be gone for Palestines land by now.. but because Palestine also makes itself look villianous.. Israels actions are justified.

Many nations have fought occupiers without sending suicide bombers into schools and night clubs... this is why Palestine has been occupeid for so long.. and as long as Hamas has influence.. they will continue to be occupied


india was another case, the british had their own land, so they were sent back to britian, israelis new generations now have no homelands,

Now that world economies are so intertwined, the USA will only 'fall' when other nations do.

However, the USA's economic dominance will probably eventually lose out to China. However, I can't decide if the USA or Chinese governments would be more responsible with this power.

you raise a provocative point... now here's a question related to it:

If the United States fell and its economy (presumably) crashed... how severe and long-lasting would be the impact on other nations?

You eman back in the days when a quarter of the American population wasn't seriously overweigt? Back in the days when you had to resort to WMD's to kill millions of innocent peoples (TWICE I might add!)?
Oh yes Americans are such wonderful people...

First of all, it's not millions, it was more like 2-300000. Secondly, would you rather of had us invade them and kill every last man woman and child on that island? Trust me, the Japanese government was willing to do that. And anyways, we did alot more destruction with firebombs than we did with those two bombs, paper houses didn't stand up too well. If we would have invaded, the death toll would actually have been in the millions. Also, with their surrender, we created a Japan that is now a leader in the economic and technological world today. Same thingh happened with West Germany, we(although the British and French were there too, we took most control against fighting the Soviets, I'm not trying to belittle the British part in WWII) helped rebuild a nation that had people climbing over a gigantic wall and die to get to. I am always amazed by people who are so shortsighted as to think that, now that we have Iraq, they think we'll not make good progress with a nation that we are controlling. Another thing, someone said earlier that the Russians killed ninety percent of the Germans in WWII. Where did they get alot of their materials from? Lend and Lease. ( I do know about Stalin's five year plan to launch his country into the industrial world, but they were overtaxed) Who opened up a second front to call tons of soldiers away from the Eastern front to fight in France?
Back on the original subject, when will America fall? It will be a long while unless there's some sort of environmental disaster that scientist keep predicting.
One question, why do all of the "Arab" nations hate Israel? How can it be viewed as a good thing to bomb parts of Jerusalem? If I think correctly, Jerusalem is the third most holy city in Islam(correct me if I'm wrong), and that the Jews are considered special to God. So why hate them?
Canada, I just shake my head in fear. :p

im not asking your sympathy...
over 10% of arabs are christians, my best friend is a christian, and he hates the idea of a non-arab taking his land.... in our "door slamed" part of the world, arabs are muslims and christians, being an arab is Speaking Arabic, it has nothing to do with religion, its an identity...

and about the door slamed thing, if we did slam the door to the modern world, how come im using a lap top????
and daily ride my car to go to college, and use the lift, did u even see how our cities look like???

did you ever see dubai, beirut, cairo, abu dhabi, tunis, algiers, alexandria????

i wont disagree with the democracy thing, we do need some developments in that area, but they are happening, next week, egypt will have its first free election, yemeni president has resigned to make a democratic state, saudi arabia has finaly made the sheikh counsel (like the congress), lebanon are is already a democracy,

and how do you think we fight dirty????

i was telling you that stuff about the british and shit as in a sarcastic way!!!!

one last thing, we have a population of arab jews in the arab world....
You're using a laptop? Good for you. How many arab nations produce laptops? How many have pioneered the technology used in laptops? Arabs can buy technology, but with their universities graduating more students of Islamic studies than students of science and engineering they'll never create technology. Arab oil wealth is used to buy pretty things, but not to produce anything. The entire Arab world has a lower GDP than Finland if you subtract oil wealth. When the oil runs out Arabs will be beggars. Beggars in fine looking cities that they never could engineer themselves, but beggars nonetheless.

you raise a provocative point... now here's a question related to it:

If the United States fell and its economy (presumably) crashed... how severe and long-lasting would be the impact on other nations?

Well, it woudent be all bad, south america and africa would develop a lot quicker due to the tariffs on there products lifted, and the america corporations gone.

Europe would be hit but, would again get it better, eg no steel competitor etc.


So, it would be bad but, the good would maybe cancel the bad.

Now that world economies are so intertwined, the USA will only 'fall' when other nations do.

However, the USA's economic dominance will probably eventually lose out to China. However, I can't decide if the USA or Chinese governments would be more responsible with this power.
While the US government is flimsy at best at the moment, I think that they still top the Chinese generals speaking publically about a potential nuclear attack on the US.

Anyway, as for economies, the point is that a new arising superpower would take the place of the US, making it obsolete. Sadly, the US doesn't even produce most of its own goods anymore, so in the event of a new superpower, it may fall behind quickly.

However, the USA's economic dominance will probably eventually lose out to China. However, I can't decide if the USA or Chinese governments would be more responsible with this power.

No, I would doubt that. China has massive economic instability, a widening income gap, aging population, and growing imbalance in it. They are also heavily dependent on the US for their exports, and cannot even begin to cover their energy needs, especially oil. This is combined with a staggeringly corrupt government and a surging income gap. I'd say China is more prone to collapse than supremacy at this time.

And if they ever do become supreme, the days of American hegemony will seem like a paradise. It would have the US's strength, combined with potent nationalism and no checks on the military or government like we have. They'd be world tyrants, moreso than any American president. Of course, it would be different if they became a free democracy with human rights, but at their present nature, they'd be absolutely terrible.

india was another case, the british had their own land, so they were sent back to britian, israelis new generations now have no homelands,

the simple truth is.. israel is there to stay... the mentality that one nation can destroy the other.. (even more impossible that Palestine will reconqure Israel) is not a realistic. And it is this which contiues to fuel the conflict... When i say isreal would be gone from palestines lands.. i mean to where the UN outlined those boundries.. Israelies have just as much claim to that land as Palestineans... Some people just fail to accept it.

And given its history.. it should be clear how inefffective this type of terrorism is. All this time what has Palestine accomplished... only to have tighter control and the building of a wall which for all intenseive purposes saved more lives (even if it disrupted some) and was successful

are we gonna turn this a religious argument?????
is nation states about religious differences???

the world is about differences.. but you can't deny the importance of one voice. Its so easy for Islam to be misconstrued by the rest of the world simply because it lacks one voice. Hundreds of Islamic leaders, all saying different things (promoting terrorism, condeming it, indifference)... but when the Pope speaks, everyone knows the stance of Catholisim on a whole (even if there are some exceptions).

Then how about saying you're doing it for Arabs, not for Christians etc.? By saying you're fighting for Christians you include me and a gazillion other people who want no part of your actions.
we are fighting for arabs (arab christians and arab muslims) i thought you understood that, sorry my mistake

and guys just back off a lil, its hard trying to answer 5 questions at the same time... i need some rest

just argue about the american fall or a change

and about the islam thing, you are right, islam is about peace, and its writen in the quran that you must never fight unless you are attacked, and if you are attacked in a holy place like a mosque dont fight back, unless your life is in danger, and if its in danger then KILL them, so islam makes it clear never to fight unless your life is in danger.
is that what you were asking about wingrad

No, I would doubt that. China has massive economic instability, a widening income gap, aging population, and growing imbalance in it. They are also heavily dependent on the US for their exports, and cannot even begin to cover their energy needs, especially oil. This is combined with a staggeringly corrupt government and a surging income gap. I'd say China is more prone to collapse than supremacy at this time.

And if they ever do become supreme, the days of American hegemony will seem like a paradise. It would have the US's strength, combined with potent nationalism and no checks on the military or government like we have. They'd be world tyrants, moreso than any American president. Of course, it would be different if they became a free democracy with human rights, but at their present nature, they'd be absolutely terrible.


China is demoractic, it has a parliament of 3000 delgates, they CANT elect a president because, can you count over a billion votes?!?!

But, you have to remember, chinese people have different thoughts to us, democracy is a human concept, invented by humans, more precisely, western invention. Chinese people woudent really desire true democracy, *and i have MANY chinese friends who can back this up, hence my name being chinese etc*

Anyway, as for economies, the point is that a new arising superpower would take the place of the US, making it obsolete. Sadly, the US doesn't even produce most of its own goods anymore, so in the event of a new superpower, it may fall behind quickly.

We don't need that much manufacturing. The sectors dying are those that are anachronisms of the past, like steel and automobiles. The ones thriving are in the high-tech and machinery sectors, along with information and financial services and they are the ones we need to maintain global economic supremacy in a globalized economy. We're repositioning for the future, just like the early Industrial Revolution put agriculture in to decline.

Even in the declining sectors, enough will remain to keep us ready for war, so that's not a concern. The only way the US will fall is if we lose our technological leadership. That's why we have to fund and attract high-tech as much as possible, or we will fall behind. The US thrives on innovation, and if we keep trying to hold on to the past, we will lose.

First of all, it's not millions, it was more like 2-300000. Secondly, would you rather of had us invade them and kill every last man woman and child on that island? Trust me, the Japanese government was willing to do that. And anyways, we did alot more destruction with firebombs than we did with those two bombs, paper houses didn't stand up too well. If we would have invaded, the death toll would actually have been in the millions. Also, with their surrender, we created a Japan that is now a leader in the economic and technological world today. Same thingh happened with West Germany, we(although the British and French were there too, we took most control against fighting the Soviets, I'm not trying to belittle the British part in WWII) helped rebuild a nation that had people climbing over a gigantic wall and die to get to. I am always amazed by people who are so shortsighted as to think that, now that we have Iraq, they think we'll not make good progress with a nation that we are controlling. Another thing, someone said earlier that the Russians killed ninety percent of the Germans in WWII. Where did they get alot of their materials from? Lend and Lease. ( I do know about Stalin's five year plan to launch his country into the industrial world, but they were overtaxed) Who opened up a second front to call tons of soldiers away from the Eastern front to fight in France?
Back on the original subject, when will America fall? It will be a long while unless there's some sort of environmental disaster that scientist keep predicting.
One question, why do all of the "Arab" nations hate Israel? How can it be viewed as a good thing to bomb parts of Jerusalem? If I think correctly, Jerusalem is the third most holy city in Islam(correct me if I'm wrong), and that the Jews are considered special to God. So why hate them?
Canada, I just shake my head in fear. :p

I fully agree. Anyone who says the US killed "millions" in Hiroshima and Nagasaki has no business pretending they know anything about history, let alone holding a debate about it. With the nations the US had gone to war with, the US has helped after victory. Winston Churchill called the Marshall Plan "...the most unsordid act in history." when the US essentially forgave war reparations owed from both Allies and Axis powers, and spent its own money sending relief and helping rebuild the same countries that had declared war on it.

the world is about differences.. but you can't deny the importance of one voice. Its so easy for Islam to be misconstrued by the rest of the world simply because it lacks one voice. Hundreds of Islamic leaders, all saying different things (promoting terrorism, condeming it, indifference)... but when the Pope speaks, everyone knows the stance of Catholisim on a whole (even if there are some exceptions).

i totaly agree, in the old days when we were more organized, we had an imperial "Mufti", he was like the pop, later they became 4, one for each sect, then the whole thing just became one for each country, and they do condem the acts of terrorism, like the london bomings, 9/11, madrid, moscow. etc...

The only way the US will fall is if we lose our technological leadership.

Did you read my post earlier? about socially america killing itself? could happen.

Hmm, if im not mistaken, japan leads he world for technoligy, not america. Sure america leads in some areas, eg robots used for war, as a whole, its japan.

China is demoractic, it has a parliament of 3000 delgates, they CANT elect a president because, can you count over a billion votes?!?!

But, you have to remember, chinese people have different thoughts to us, democracy is a human concept, invented by humans, more precisely, western invention. Chinese people woudent really desire true democracy, *and i have MANY chinese friends who can back this up, hence my name being chinese etc*

Yes, a one party state that has no real opposition and brutalizes people who actually criticize the regime. Real democratic that one.

Oh, and it's easy to count that many votes. India does it all of the time, and they're a real democracy with real parties, not some Communist sham.

Democracy is a western concept, but it works fine in almost all of Asia, including the extremely historical and isolated culture of Japan. And Communism is no more Asian than democracy, and a lot more recent and less established.

A bigot is someone who subscribes to stereotyping other people. When represented by country music, a redneck stereotypes themselves. If you perpetuate and wish to be represented in a stereo typical way, how am I prejudiced? I am just going with what you want me to see.

Let me be a little clearer, I am talking about pop-country as it stands today. I would never say that Johnny Cash or Kenny Rogers were stupid as they did a great deal to move forward their craft.

Furthermore, having lived in the south before, I think that people who chose to represent themselves with crappy pick-up trucks, a racist flag, "Ain't Skeered" and "Git 'Er Done" stickers while bragging about living in a trailer and having a bunch of illegitmate children bring down the culture as a whole.

A "real" redneck is so called because they work the land and provide. Their a red neck because of the toiling farm work. These people I respect. Not those who take on the monniker redneck in an attempt to be country cool.

Thank you for your bullshit pompous opinion and clarification of the term 'redneck'.

Yes, a one party state that has no real opposition and brutalizes people who actually criticize the regime. Real democratic that one.

Oh, and it's easy to count that many votes. India does it all of the time, and they're a real democracy with real parties, not some Communist sham.

Democracy is a western concept, but it works fine in almost all of Asia, including the extremely historical and isolated culture of Japan. And Communism is no more Asian than democracy, and a lot more recent and less established.

i think communism is a great ideology, but unfortunatly it will work great in the dreamland of hakupapa

Did you read my post earlier? about socially america killing itself? could happen.

Hmm, if im not mistaken, japan leads he world for technoligy, not america. Sure america leads in some areas, eg robots used for war, as a whole, its japan.

It could happen, I agree. It's a very possible risk, and one that could happen soon.

America does lead Japan. The Japanese economy's been in the tank since 1989, and their innovation is slowing as a result. They lead in certain sectors, like robotics and its related fields, artifical intelligence, automobile technology, and civil engineering technologies. The US leads in computers, the internet, fiber-optics, advanced composites, silicon chip technology, and many more. The US and Japan work together more than they rival each other.

Let's see...major problems we made it through that come to memory....

...a revolution
...a British invasion
...British burning of The White House
...Civil War
...Reconstructing the entire South
...Great Depression
...Japanese attacks
...Cold War

We turned out alright. We're still here, aren't we?

We have been through alot but compared to other country's that nothing! France has been invaded and occupied several times (dumb french) Britans had several major civil wars (prodestants and the old church, Scots and brits, Irish and brits, don't forget the Irish potatoe famine) I won't even get into all of the countries in Africa that have been reformed and dissolved and inslaved so many times that truly there borders don't really mean anything. We havn't even been invaded by another country let alone occupied.

Name one instance in where we are economically weak.


You have to give subsidies to your farmers so that they can compete (= weakness)

You have to bolster your Steel industry almost yearly.

And if we look historically there is the Savings and Loans fiasco among other things.

Basically your economy is as "Strong" as it is because you are propping up your manufacturing with huge governmental bail-outs. It doesn't have any strength on it's own, it just borrows from the savings of everyone in the US. Every time you pax tax some of it goes to paying for anti-competative farming and industry practices.

I suggest you investigate works by Dr Stiglitz of the University of Columbia for a nice easy-to-read series of primers on the US economy from a Presidential economic advisor.

http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/

Cheers
Grantwold

China is demoractic, it has a parliament of 3000 delgates, they CANT elect a president because, can you count over a billion votes?!?!

But, you have to remember, chinese people have different thoughts to us, democracy is a human concept, invented by humans, more precisely, western invention. Chinese people woudent really desire true democracy, *and i have MANY chinese friends who can back this up, hence my name being chinese etc*

wel.. that is .. uh crap. They belive only becase the party makes them belive. Chinese people really woudlnt' desire true democracy ? why was Hong Kong most hesitant about going back to China.. and whats with Taiwans government ?

This is foolishness. And to say China is democratic ? So your trying to say chinese voters can vote for a canidate in a party other then the communist party ? please. Democracy is a word you can place no where near China. China is a capitolistic authoritarian government. Imprisonment of people for "different" ideas. Real chinese dont want democracy ? what was tienamin square then huh ?

We don't need that much manufacturing. The sectors dying are those that are anachronisms of the past, like steel and automobiles. The ones thriving are in the high-tech and machinery sectors, along with information and financial services and they are the ones we need to maintain global economic supremacy in a globalized economy. We're repositioning for the future, just like the early Industrial Revolution put agriculture in to decline.

Even in the declining sectors, enough will remain to keep us ready for war, so that's not a concern. The only way the US will fall is if we lose our technological leadership. That's why we have to fund and attract high-tech as much as possible, or we will fall behind. The US thrives on innovation, and if we keep trying to hold on to the past, we will lose.
Oh, I have no doubt in the US' military integrity. Its economy, and especially this building oil situation, seem a bit flimsy, but anyone who knows anything about economics realizes that is a normal part of a country. There will always be peaks and troughs, and the situation could rebound much more easily than everyone realizes, especially with the nation's inherent strength.

As for looking to the future and technology, I'd say look to Japan. They, along with China, are buying more and more former American companies and produce most of the world's technological goods. Though, the US is still by far foremost in the best systems and technological research.

The problem with importing everything is that production provides jobs and boosts the economy by having domestic goods sold both in the nation and internationally. Buying every other nation's products isn't the path to a strong economy, and the only reason why the US can pull it off is because of its many other strengths and riches. For any other nation, it would lead to certain collapse.

Did you read my post earlier? about socially america killing itself? could happen.

Hmm, if im not mistaken, japan leads he world for technoligy, not america. Sure america leads in some areas, eg robots used for war, as a whole, its japan.
But do you realize that Japan is silly in the way that they put turning signals on their tanks?

A million deaths is a statistic. A single death is a tragedy.
Nice quoting of Stalin.

Cheers
Grantwold

i dont think japan i equiped to become a super power, it has a very weak army, no nuclear weapons, and there population is decreasing...

while china....hmmmm, strong army, strong economy, nuclear weapons, and a hell lot of people, they have over 300 million military manpower availability
more then the USA and canada combined together...

You have to give subsidies to your farmers so that they can compete (= weakness)

You have to bolster your Steel industry almost yearly.


Basically your economy is as "Strong" as it is because you are propping up your manufacturing with huge governmental bail-outs. It doesn't have any strength on it's own, it just borrows from the savings of everyone in the US. Every time you pax tax some of it goes to paying for anti-competative farming and industry practices.

ICheers
Grantwold

Our country trades internationally in roughly 20 different industries. Granted, some need subsistance at times, but with a GDP of $11.75 Trillion last year and very low inflation, I'd say our economy is extremely strong and not weak like suggested by the poster you are defending. Do none of your countries subsidise your industries in times of economic slowdowns? Here is a great place you can look to get the stats needed to back me up:
Nationmasters stats for just about everything (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp)

You're not fighting for me matey boy. No Christians I know support the suicide bombers et al. I dearly wish Muslims would stop saying this - just because Arafat spouted this nonsense doesn't make it true.

The Irish conflict had a lot of Christians involved in some very nasty business.

Cheers
Grantwold

i dont think japan i equiped to become a super power, it has a very weak army, no nuclear weapons, and there population is decreasing...
But their influence on the rest of the world is ever growing http://67.18.37.16/1381/85/emo/shiftyeyes.gif

In terms of whether the USA will remain a superpower forever then we cannot say. I've read a few idiotic comments by some in anti US, pro US postings, but your forgetting key things, in the developed world now, people in their jobs are paid more than the deveoping world, just look at cal centres, many companies use them in India now, the shift is already happening. More call centres less jobs. The next example is textiles, China produces tshirts in sweat shops using wages that no American would accept. Take it from me, the exploited countries are seeing the gradual turning of the tide. It's the way it goes, weapons sure as hell don't prove how long you'll last in this world.

Partof GB's decline a long while back was the cost of being first (a superpower), countries learn from the best and develop even better things at half the cost after they have seen them implemented. It's far better being second or third down the line as you can at least learn from others.

But do you realize that Japan is silly in the way that they put turning signals on their tanks?
Actually it's quite clever. In combat they signal left and turn right and confuse their adversaries.

But their influence on the rest of the world is ever growing http://67.18.37.16/1381/85/emo/shiftyeyes.gif

yes but Japan has really reached its peak as a world power... Japan is currently suffering extreme population decline... in 30 years the population is projected to nearly half... and as such the GDP of the country will almost do the same. This is really the end of the Japanese influence on the scale we have seen up till now

I love how people say that the world doesn't rely on us economically. Although we don't produce everything here in the States, we are the global marketplace(and we are still a huge breadbasket of the world). We just use other countries who work for lower wages to do all the menial tasks like data entry and making toys and car parts and things like that.
I can't wait until we find a new, unlimited fuel source and are able to utilize it easily.
One suggestion for energy crisis combined with foreign aid. Buy a huge plot of land in the middle of the Sahara desert dirt cheap(nothing's there, like we thought about Alaska...) We build large amounts of solar energy plants and give part of our profits and energy to the government of whatever country we're building them in (hopefully this will protect the plants from suicide bombers).
One thing I forgot to mention earlier, when comparing us to Rome, we still have a while to go with our downfall. No mercenaries yet. And I'm sure there's still patriotism left in this grand nation.
On the America and the world in general. America let's anyone and everyone in (if they're legal i.e. illegally transported immigrants not good in the eyes of the gov.) we are a global nation. I don't think you'll find a single nation in the world which doesn't have a rep. in America. Then there's the EU places like Spain and France have a specific part of their government devoted entirely to creating new words in their languages to name new ideas and technologies. Europe has historically been a very secluded culture on the inside, thinking that its culture is the best culture there is. It is showing now today when you look at the stats of how many Muslims are in places like Britain and France. (National Geographic)
On religion, it's weird how history's reversed itself. Back in Medieval times, Europe(Christianity) was the place with the tons of zeal and the non focus on scientific knowhow. Whereas, the world of Islam was at the very epitome of scienctific research. Their maps were better, their math was better, and they were just generally advanced. Whereas today, Christianity seems to be dying out and turning into a scientific realm, whereas the "Arab" world has turned to religion with a zeal not seen since the crusades. Just out of curiosity, how far east does Islam reach? And, do/did the Islamic people ever (after the initial spreading of it) send out missionaries like the Christians did?

Actually it's quite clever. In combat they signal left and turn right and confuse their adversaries.

i think we have just covered a secret japanese code, now we can attack japan and win

neyaahahahahahahaha

Our country trades internationally in roughly 20 different industries. Granted, some need subsistance at times, but with a GDP of $11.75 Trillion last year and very low inflation, I'd say our economy is extremely strong and not weak like suggested by the poster you are defending. Do none of your countries subsidise your industries in times of economic slowdowns? Here is a great place you can look to get the stats needed to back me up:
Nationmasters stats for just about everything (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp)

I am afraid I don't have a country, I am *in* a country, but I don't have one, or more than one.

Well done, your chart shows that a populous industrial nation has a large GDP. What it does not show is that significant fractions of the GDP are made using corrupt accounting practices, for example most companies do not invouce stock options as an expense, where they really are.

Would you measure economic strength in terms of GDP alone? I prefer to focus on total value, or GDP + Infrastructure - Debt. In which case the US doesn't look so good.

But that's ok you see, because there is a finite amount of value on the planet at any given time, for one country to have a surplus another has to have a deficit. The total surplus in the world has to be equal to the amount of deficit (since we aren't flinging things off into space in any great volume or anything like that). This means that the deficit of the US translates to surplusses in other countries.

In my books the higher the deficit, the weaker the economy, but I like the US having a weaker economy, because it strengthens everyone else in the world.

ICheers
Grantwold

Sometime within 20-50 years. I think it will collapse fully within 100 years or so. Forced unity started the civil war.

Would you measure economic strength in terms of GDP alone? I prefer to focus on total value, or GDP + Infrastructure - Debt. In which case the US doesn't look so good.


The debt is meaningless as long as the US economy grows faster than its deficits, and outstanding debt has almost no interest on it. It will have no effect on our economic growth until we can no longer afford to pay interest on it and it grows faster than out economy for an extended period of time. That debt will never be repaid, and the people holding it know that. They loan it to use because it's a solid investment that is the most secure paper in the world.

Plus, as a %GDP, our debt isn't the largest. Japan and most of Europe run considerably bigger deficits. Their economies have fundamental weaknesses that keep them from growing, and so their debt is more harmful to them than it will be to us.

This isn't an America-bashing post, I just want to ask you guys when you think the USA's dominance over the world will end.


Hurricane Katrina and the "Iraq war" is the beginning of the end...
Our economy is going downhill already....not long now...maybe 5 years max...

I just want to start looting...... :mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

:cool: :D :cool:

yes but Japan has really reached its peak as a world power... Japan is currently suffering extreme population decline... in 30 years the population is projected to nearly half... and as such the GDP of the country will almost do the same. This is really the end of the Japanese influence on the scale we have seen up till now
Their population isn't declining, they're starting their invasion http://67.18.37.16/1381/85/emo/shiftyeyes.gif

Our country trades internationally in roughly 20 different industries. Granted, some need subsistance at times, but with a GDP of $11.75 Trillion last year and very low inflation, I'd say our economy is extremely strong and not weak like suggested by the poster you are defending. Do none of your countries subsidise your industries in times of economic slowdowns? Here is a great place you can look to get the stats needed to back me up:
Nationmasters stats for just about everything (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp)

wow the Arab League Combined would rank 9th

who is ranked 2nd on Nationmasters stats for just about everything

who is ranked 2nd on Nationmasters stats for just about everything
Well unless I skimmed over it, I didn't see Cuba there on the list. Must be Cuba.

Hmm, British troops burn White House in 1814, even though Washington had little strategic value - the thriving port of Baltimore was much more important. However, as capital of the nation, the British hoped that its burning would have a psychological impact on the will of the Americans to continue the conflict. Wrong again. When did Canada win it's independence? 1864, 50 years later. Hard to believe that it was Canadians that burnned the White House.

Those were Canadian soldiers, not British regulars that invaded Washington. The flag they were under bears little relevance to whom they really were.

I am afraid I don't have a country, I am *in* a country, but I don't have one, or more than one.

Well done, your chart shows that a populous industrial nation has a large GDP. What it does not show is that significant fractions of the GDP are made using corrupt accounting practices, for example most companies do not invouce stock options as an expense, where they really are.

Would you measure economic strength in terms of GDP alone? I prefer to focus on total value, or GDP + Infrastructure - Debt. In which case the US doesn't look so good.

But that's ok you see, because there is a finite amount of value on the planet at any given time, for one country to have a surplus another has to have a deficit. The total surplus in the world has to be equal to the amount of deficit (since we aren't flinging things off into space in any great volume or anything like that). This means that the deficit of the US translates to surplusses in other countries.

In my books the higher the deficit, the weaker the economy, but I like the US having a weaker economy, because it strengthens everyone else in the world.

ICheers
Grantwold

Really now, there were tons of other graphs for you to explore on that site. Had you explored you would have found that our foreign debt is relatively low compared to other industrial nations. Here you go, how does the country you live in compare to the US: foreign debt/ most countries (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_deb_ext_gdp)

BTW, it's too bad that you don't have a country. Maybe it's just the American mindset, but all of us Americans claim ownership of this country. We also call it patriotism.

I don't know if the event will bring down the West, but it may start next year, on June 6, 2006 (6/6/06) which is exactly 333 days after the 7/7 London bombings (http://www.infowars.com/articles/occult/terror_attack_numerology_updatehtm.htm). Some believe the target will be the Sears Tower, whose zip code is also 60606 and is owned by Larry Silverstein, who also owned WTC 1,2 AND 7.

It is rumored that Osama has prepositioned tac nukes in 20 US cities already. (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29109) The only Muslim nation to have nukes is Pakistan and they have two submarines capable of delivering them. The attack will be swift, maybe 50% of our countrymen annihilated by the blasts and fallout and the surviving SAC-NORAD personnel will wipe 1 billion Muslims off the face of the Earth (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162795,00.html) because we would have nothing left to lose. With no global hegemon, Eurabia, Russia, India and China will exterminate each other whatever crude is left under the Middle East.

If that does not happen, the US will become a mixed Anglo-Hispanic nation (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11535) organized along the same lines as shanty-town fiefdoms in Sao Paolo: Partiarchial, Hobbesian, Malthusian and utterly corrupt (http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=21296), but that will be the least of our worries because the entire industrialized world will be sitting in the dark after the last oil shale and tar sand deposits are drained (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/).

America will cease to be a dominant power either through massive economic foolishness such as not being able to service the massive deficit and high tech edges like computing or aerospace, or the rise of competing superpowers that are able to maintain their own cutting edge research and development without America, or both.

America could turn into a third world ghetto in no time at all.

Thing is, you bashers out there won't like a world in which Uncle Sam is not patrolling the world's oceans. Plenty of folks ready to raise the cost of world trade, and with massive dislocation of external economies your internal economies would go to heck.


I think that you are partially right about the massive dislocation of external economies. But that I think it will be only temporary since the the rest of the world has for some decades now sought alternate routes of trade with each other that exclude the Americans. Most Americans don't realize this and still view their country as the economic anchor and engine of the world. It isn't and hasn't been for some time. The title of "economic engine and anchor" of the world has been in flux for at least a decade or two now and will be for the near future untill China and India get a firm hold on part of that title merely because they have a growing consumer base that DWARFS the entire north american economy for potential and as soon as Europe gets it's act together in a decade or so, then America won't be as crucial as it once was.

I don't hate the United States, I just see things as they are and have noticed quite a lot of ignorance as to the effects of America's governmental actions and Corporate greed worldwide. Yes, the loss of the American superpower will be a great economic hit, and will probably trigger a world depression. But nothing lasts forever, not good times, and definately not bad. There is a cycle to these things. You just have to know when and where the wind of change is blowing to capitalize on that change.

It is rumored that Osama has prepositioned tac nukes in 20 US cities already. (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29109).

I don't think Osama is that stupid. In perspective when he attacked 3 buildings we demolished 2 countries, if he nuked 20 cities we'll glass several countries in the middle east if not all of them.

The general idea is to make the deterrent so unthinkably horrible no one would even consider tac nuking an american city.

I don't think Osama is that stupid. In perspective when he attacked 3 buildings we demolished 2 countries, if he nuked 20 cities we'll glass several countries in the middle east if not all of them.

The general idea is to make the deterrent so unthinkably horrible no one would even consider tac nuking an american city.

I really, really, really wish you are right.

http://howardbloom.net/Wakeup_or_Shutdown2.htm

I don't know if the event will bring down the West, but it may start next year, on June 6, 2006 (6/6/06) which is exactly 333 days after the 7/7 London bombings (http://www.infowars.com/articles/occult/terror_attack_numerology_updatehtm.htm). Some believe the target will be the Sears Tower, whose zip code is also 60606 and is owned by Larry Silverstein, who also owned WTC 1,2 AND 7.

It is rumored that Osama has prepositioned tac nukes in 20 US cities already. (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29109) The only Muslim nation to have nukes is Pakistan and they have two submarines capable of delivering them. The attack will be swift, maybe 50% of our countrymen annihilated by the blasts and fallout and the surviving SAC-NORAD personnel will wipe 1 billion Muslims off the face of the Earth (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162795,00.html) because we would have nothing left to lose. With no global hegemon, Eurabia, Russia, India and China will exterminate each other whatever crude is left under the Middle East.

If that does not happen, the US will become a mixed Anglo-Hispanic nation (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11535) organized along the same lines as shanty-town fiefdoms in Sao Paolo: Partiarchial, Hobbesian, Malthusian and utterly corrupt (http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=21296), but that will be the least of our worries because the entire industrialized world will be sitting in the dark after the last oil shale and tar sand deposits are drained (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/).


what the FU*K?????

do you have worms in your heads dude????
what the FU*K are you talking about???

you do you wanna wipe out 1 billion muslims off the planet, what the hell did they do to you????

bin ladin doesnt give a shit about the arab states or the middle east.......
and the attacks the USA id doing in the middle east are unacceptable.
i agree on their invasion of afghanistan to hunt down binladin, but not iraq, nor syria, lebanon, saudi arabia, yemen, or any other

I really, really, really wish you are right.

http://howardbloom.net/Wakeup_or_Shutdown2.htm

uhhh this might be a mistake...

According to Defence Journal, Pakistan's subs have a range of close to twelve thousand miles

If that were the friggin case they wouldn't need to even remotely near the U.S. They could be on the otherside of the damn planet.

Like I said if one nuke fell on American soil, Pakistan would be nothing more than a shiny Parking lot. They brought a derrenger to a howitzer fight...

I think America will fall at the end of WWIII.

Then we will have to start civilization all over again, because almost everyone has been nuked out of existance.

Either that or never.


:mp5: :sniper: :mp5:
The Armed Republic Of Cruel Tyrany

what's that? 2012 maybe?

I don't know if the event will bring down the West, but it may start next year, on June 6, 2006 (6/6/06) which is exactly 333 days after the 7/7 London bombings (http://www.infowars.com/articles/occult/terror_attack_numerology_updatehtm.htm). Some believe the target will be the Sears Tower, whose zip code is also 60606 and is owned by Larry Silverstein, who also owned WTC 1,2 AND 7.

It is rumored that Osama has prepositioned tac nukes in 20 US cities already. (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29109) The only Muslim nation to have nukes is Pakistan and they have two submarines capable of delivering them. The attack will be swift, maybe 50% of our countrymen annihilated by the blasts and fallout and the surviving SAC-NORAD personnel will wipe 1 billion Muslims off the face of the Earth (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162795,00.html) because we would have nothing left to lose. With no global hegemon, Eurabia, Russia, India and China will exterminate each other whatever crude is left under the Middle East.

If that does not happen, the US will become a mixed Anglo-Hispanic nation (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11535) organized along the same lines as shanty-town fiefdoms in Sao Paolo: Partiarchial, Hobbesian, Malthusian and utterly corrupt (http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=21296), but that will be the least of our worries because the entire industrialized world will be sitting in the dark after the last oil shale and tar sand deposits are drained (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/).
You actually believe this shit? This is one of those times that I wonder what happened to our society's sensibility.

what the FU*K?????

do you have worms in your heads dude????
what the FU*K are you talking about???

you do you wanna wipe out 1 billion muslims off the planet, what the hell did they do to you????

I didn't say I WANTED to wipe them out. Do you honestly think that the people sitting inside the Air Force's missile bases are going to just sit by and watch American cities burn up? If after the US is nuked, even if the US government and all the world leaders say, "Ok, Osama, you win, let's talk." Do you think the President will still have control of America's nuclear arsenal? Even if the strategic missile forces aren't used, there will be Christian fundamentalist martyrs born out of the ashes that will set off suitcast nukes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suitcase_bomb) in the Muslim world. Does anyone honestly think that Americans will just say "oh well...let's get on with life and get along" AFTER a nuclear holocaust?

I don't want to wipe out any people,but I'm just speculating on how the survivors in this country will think AFTER the nuke goes off.

Not to sound mean, but I am SO against immargration, Immigratian will destroy america. The fact that terrorists can just walk over the canadian border is slightly frightning. I dont think that Akmed and Osama have the balls to do anything anytime soon, but in time to come we will fall due to immigrants and terrorism

America will not fall
but there will be a revolution

I didn't say I WANTED to wipe them out. Do you honestly think that the people sitting inside the Air Force's missile bases are going to just sit by and watch American cities burn up? If after the US is nuked, even if the US government and all the world leaders say, "Ok, Osama, you win, let's talk." Do you think the President will still have control of America's nuclear arsenal? Even if the strategic missile forces aren't used, there will be Christian fundamentalist martyrs born out of the ashes that will set off suitcast nukes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suitcase_bomb) in the Muslim world. Does anyone honestly think that Americans will just say "oh well...let's get on with life and get along" AFTER a nuclear holocaust?

I don't want to wipe out any people,but I'm just speculating on how the survivors in this country will think AFTER the nuke goes off.

well why were you targetting muslims???

not because binladin is a muslims means muslims are terrorists

it just happened that the terrorist of this decade is a muslim, i dont remember anyone calling mafia leaders and catholics terrorists (not that im calling them that)

but when it comes to muslims, its the same old 1000 years problems between terrorrist muslims and the angeles of the west...

:headbang:

..... Akmed and Osama have the balls to do anything anytime soon.........
who the hell is Akmed???

so you think that arabs control the american superpowerhood???

Well, yes and no. IF America fails in Iraq(I said If god damnit, don't bitch at me plz), then my guess is the bloody eye will be sufficient to keep america from being Imperial for a few years at least.

IF the arab states just refuse to fuel America, then the US will fall, as the Middle East controls most of the world's oil, of which America is the biggest addict.

But I'm talking about this - www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

Which will essentially kill civilization as we know and love it, and America too :p

what's that? 2012 maybe?

Did you actually read this article (http://www.infowars.com/articles/occult/terror_attack_numerology_updatehtm.htm)? The exact placement of dates can't possibly be coincidence.

I don't believe in any mystical, supernatural explanation, I'm not going to say it's Freemasonry, Illuminati, Aliens from Uranus, etc. I'm saying that there appears to be a pattern based on dates.

As far as other conspiracy theories, there are things that are verifiable, that the government knew something before the attack. Maybe the government knows about an attack but is incompetent to stop it. Maybe the government is in on it and lets it happen. The government may even have planned and carried out the attack. Who the hell knows. I certainly don't, but there are events and precursors that can't be denied.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html#eve

If and when a nuke goes off, whether it's Osama's or the Illuminati's, it's going to be the least of our worries when we're inhaling Cesium 137.

Well, yes and no. IF America fails in Iraq(I said If god damnit, don't bitch at me plz), then my guess is the bloody eye will be sufficient to keep america from being Imperial for a few years at least.

IF the arab states just refuse to fuel America, then the US will fall, as the Middle East controls most of the world's oil, of which America is the biggest addict.

But I'm talking about this - www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

Which will essentially kill civilization as we know and love it, and America :p

i guess that good new for ME, since im an arab, but i guess our governments are too stupid to realize that, otherwise we would'v succeded in passing several resolutions in the UN.

hehehe

but i guess sooner or later our time will come again, but not in the near future i think!!!

well why were you targetting muslims???

not because binladin is a muslims means muslims are terrorists

it just happened that the terrorist of this decade is a muslim, i dont remember anyone calling mafia leaders and catholics terrorists (not that im calling them that)

but when it comes to muslims, its the same old 1000 years problems between terrorrist muslims and the angeles of the west...

:headbang:

Honestly, if a nuclear bomb goes off in this country, who do you think most Americans will blame for it?

The reason people will find for attacking Muslim holy sites is the same as the one the US and USSR used to deter each other from Armageddon for 40 years: Mutually Assured Destruction. If China threatened the US, the response would be to strike at the heart of their military and industrial capacity. The same with North Korea. The same with Iran.

China can reach the US with nukes, but then they would wipe out all the Wal-Marts and kill off the best customers of their industrial base. North Korea can reach us, but they know they will be annihilated. It is radical Muslim ideology that is the key here. Mutually Assured Destruction doesn't work the same way with modern jihadists because Russia, China, North Korea believe that if they are bombed, they're dead and finished. However, extremist Islam tells its martyrs that they will have a special place in Paradise if they sacrifice themselves to slay kafirs or infidels for Allah. Look at the suicide bombers in Iraq. Look at the 9-11 hijackers.

Narcoterrorists commit terrorism to eliminate rivals and law enforcement. Organized crime commits terrorism for extortion and profit. Radical jihadists however, commit terrorism to annihilate non-believers.

Nuclear-armed terrorists have no home nation to retaliate against, so the point of targetting the ENTIRE Muslim world is to impose a psychological effect on the small portion of the Muslim population that is nihilistic and trained enough to carry out a nuclear attack, that if they press the button, their CAUSE and the people they are claiming to liberate won't be on this planet anymore.

Sad to say, but people are going to think like that.