NationStates Jolt Archive

trust me, I am no Castro supporter

Cool, then it is possible for us to have some common ground.

http://www.presidentreagan.info/images/reagan_smile.jpg

The biggest reason why America rocks!

I politle beg to differ. But I'd rather not get into it right now.

Short version:

Sold weapons to Iran to fund Contra terrorist/drug runners, cut off suply of TB in the middle of an epidemic, causeing thousands of needless deaths.

Cool, then it is possible for us to have some common ground.

Common ground is a wonderful thing :)

Have you read the last few pages? Me and Twiget have a conversation to the effect.

I politle beg to differ. But I'd rather not get into it right now.

Short version:

Sold weapons to Iran to fund Contra terrorist/drug runners, cut off suply of TB in the middle of an epidemic, causeing thousands of needless deaths.

He also, more than any other President, destroyed Communism.

It's my opinion that Gorbichav, not Reagen, destroyed Soviet-style "communism." Besides, the murder of innocents is inexcusible, no matter what other good people atribute to you.

He was an actor, plain and simple, he was charismatic, he knew how to get people to like him.

One thing that pissed me off, when Reagan died, everyone jumped on the "we love Reagan" bandwagon. The Washington Post printed many articles filled with praise for him, but back when he was president, they posted many articles against him. But, it was profitable to claim to have always been a Reagan supporter, so there they go. Have the courage to stick to your guns! Don't just blow whichever way the wind blows.

Common ground is a wonderful thing :)

Have you read the last few pages? Me and Twiget have a conversation to the effect.

Very well, no I had not read those pages very well, but since you mentioned it, I went back and reviewed more of what you said and believe you are more balanced than many that post on these boards.

It all, (all the discussion in this thread) makes me wonder if I should start a new thread but not quite sure how to word it. Imagine a nation that is a powerful freedom loving multi-racial multi-ethnic democracy and yet the paradox of it all, is that because of such diversity of opinion within the government itself, nothing "seems" to gets done, but when things do get done they often go arwy in unexpected ways. And all of this is under a system of elected officials and appointed bureaucrats. Is democracy the best system?

Nice list of one-sided anti-American propaganist bullshit. Some of the claims are justified, some are heavily spun to make America look bad. For example, April 7 2004 US destroys a mosque. Please don't bother to mention that enemy troops were fighting from the mosque. That destroys your argument. If it's used as a military site then it's no longer given the protection accorded to a religious site. If you say where you come from, given some time and research we could probably do a similar hatchet job on your nation.


For the sake of anything you consider worthwhile whether a god or gods, your children or just some common decency can americans not take
a single shred of responsibility.

America is the worlds only superpower
it is supposedly a democracy although it looks less like one with every
passing decade.

As a nation you have supported dictators in some countries
and supported terrorist organisations in others to overthrow democratically
elected governments.
If you had done absolutely nothing bad in the last 70 years except what
you did to vietnam then you would have to spend centuries atoning for it.
Far from doing anything to atone for it your country when it can be bothered
to think about vietnam at all
merely regrets how many thousands of american soldiers lost their lives
while murdering millions.


As far as Iraq and Afghanistan currently,
there is no action other than complete withdrawal that america can do
and not be in the wrong.
If you blow up a mosque in Iraq then whether there are people attacking
you from it or not your in the wrong because you're the occupying army.

Your country is the number one terrorist state in the world.
And while you remain in denial your country will take more and more of its
behaviours to the rest of the world into itself until one day
you find yourself
arrested with cause
held without trial
humiliated and tortured
and if things go in your country as your government is trialling in the middle east
then you may have to watch and hear your children being tortured and sodmized.


Your country had amazing sympathy and support from the rest of the
world when the terrible crime that was committed on sept 11 occured.
It didn't occur completely out of the blue, america's support for the
middleeasts only nuclear power regardless of what they do helped
bring it about.
There was barely a country in the world that wouldn't have bent over
backwards to help you track down and bring to trial the people responsible
for the planning of it.
Your countries crimes since sept 11 now so outweigh even the terrible
events of that day that it is now your leaders that many are hoping to bring
to trial and with each passing month it becomes more and more likely that
other countries governments who assisted in your country's atrocities
will fall and they will be brought to trial not today or tomorrow, but
many currently smug leaders will live out their final years in prison.

Now taking you as an example of the average american, it is clear
that democracy and justice must be very near to death.
A decent person, believing in justice would not simply shout hatchet job
and say you've probably done it too.
Thats the answer of the sullen and ignorant juvenile delinquent.

You need to address the issues as it is your government,
it is still nominally a democracy and that makes it your responsibility.

Why does the rest of the world comment on it?
Because your country's horrendous behaviour affects us all.

There are other countries in the world who have had a history nearly
as bad as yours, but there really aren't that many established
countries where it could be said that each and every president since the 40's
would be found guilty of warcrimes if held to the same standard that
the nazi's were judged by.


But the main point here is that as an american, you are responsible for
the actions of your government.
You have no business dealing with any other countries issues, unless
in the terms agreed upon and that have been accepted as international law.
Bombs and bullets, torture and murder would not be acceptable to you
in your own country so kindly do not think that it is okay for you to do
anywhere else.

Very well, no I had not read those pages very well, but since you mentioned it, I went back and reviewed more of what you said and believe you are more balanced than many that post on these boards.

Thank you, I take that as quite a complement.

As for the new thread, it would probably turn out much like this one. The same points being said, the same insults being flung. Some early parts of this thread were quite nasty.

In the end, when I debate the merits and flaws of the US, it comes down to both sides agreeing that the US is better then alot of places, not as good as alot of places, a land of freedom for some, a forgien opressive hand for others, both sides agreeing that there has been and is good and bad, and the pro-American side saying that the good outweights the bad, and the bad normally has good intentions, while I say the the bad outweights the good, and that the bad is usually done out of self-intrest, and that there is more bad then you see/believe, while you say that I see/believe more bad then there is. Both sides (if both sides are intelligent and civil) acknowledge their commone ground, realise that they differ on opinion rather that fact, realise that further debate would be pointless, both understand where the other is comming from, both have a bit wider perspective then when they started, and both go home content. This, of course, is a best-case senerio, and it rarely works out like this, as both uber-patriots and basher sling ideology wraped in profanity at each other, and the whole thing breaks down.

::sigh::

::snip::

You got some good points, but alot of it is wraped in opinion and anger, which makes the rest of your points easyer to attack. I do beg to differ on the less of a democracy with each decade thing. Back in the day, the robor barons owned the gov outright, and could command federal troops to attack strikers. Nowadays strikers are protected, to some extent, and the big business controls politicians from behind the scenes more.

Interesting point with the war crimes thing. Could you name the crimes of each president, to make it stronger, more then just a vague claim?

I apreciate that you see the bad, I wonder if you also see the good. It's cool and all of you think the bad outweighs the good, I thinks so too, but you gatta see both sides.

I apreciate that you see the bad, I wonder if you also see the good. It's cool and all of you think the bad outweighs the good, I thinks so too, but you gatta see both sides.


No I am not entering into this barter of good things vs bad things.

A man who does good works all his life but rapes one child,
does not get to balance the good against the bad.

And the US nation is not in the position to be able to claim to have only
done one bad thing or to have dedicated the rest of its existence to
doing good.


I am equally not in the mood to be listing all the crimes of each of the
American presidents.
Pick any one of your choice and then look at the actions done by their
order during their terms of office and you will find them.

But right now you have a muderous, torture promoting. aggressive war launching
president.
Which is what you should be dealing with.

The previous one, while not playing hide the cigar ordered the bombing
raid on Bagdad which in and of itself is sufficient.

Bush Snr of course was also responsible for the bombing of innocent
civilians in Iraq, targeting air raid shelters etc. and thats just one
during his presidency, there would not only be others from that but
his history in the CIA would place him in a position of responsibility
for ones committed during those times too.

Reagan of course had many that could be used against him
my own personal favourite is of course the funding of terrorists
to destabilize and overthrow a twice democratically elected government.

But of course he was only continuing a policy there that
Carter had started and so his crimes deal in similar areas
contras, support for somoza before the contras.

and Im bored now
none of the crimes are unknown to americans
they simply either refuse to believe them or try to spin
them into having been unavoidable, accidental or justifiable.

The most worrying thing is they don't seem to realise that they
are not convincing anyone but themselves.

dude, I love the writing in verse. Take that traditional prose!

I also agree with pretty much all you have said.

"A man who does good works all his life but rapes one child,
does not get to balance the good against the bad.

And the US nation is not in the position to be able to claim to have only
done one bad thing or to have dedicated the rest of its existence to
doing good."

I my self said that a few times earlyer.

My point being, if you don't come with some support, no one will listen to or respect you, and you won't change any minds, you won't be helping get your truth out.

Once again, love your style of writing

My point being, if you don't come with some support, no one will listen to or respect you, and you won't change any minds, you won't be helping get your truth out.

Once again, love your style of writing


Thank you but the point is
that the truth isn't hidden and isn't unknown.

For example when Bush started talking up the need to go to war with Iraq
he was speaking lies.

That was obvious ,
from the manner in which he said things
the form of the things he said

and if that wasn't enough to clue people in
any and every checkable "fact" that he put forward was near
instantaneously disproven.

But even if none of that had been the case.
What he wanted to do was against international law,
was guaranteed to kill a great many people
and should have been opposed by all decent people if for no other
reasons than those.

Like I say this has little to do with people not being aware of the facts, people aren't unaware of them.
They may choose to dismiss them but they can only do so by shifting
the scale of good and bad as they go between
u.s. government actions and then "so called terrorist actions"
Men who fire missiles from ships, or drop bombs from planes are heroes
because they are americans.
Men who fight the americans no matter how they do so
are evil cowardly terrorists.

People who capture westerners and torture and kill them are quite
rightly labelled as murderers etc.

When Americans do it to Iraqis, all kinds of excuses are made.

Just like in the Israeli situation, every single killing done by Palestinians
against Israelis
whether against soldiers or civilians is reported in detail and you could get
the opinion that Palestinians commit far more killing than Israel does.
Because Israeli killings of Palestinians are not always reported
and when they are they tend to be described as noble actions gone wrong.

It is only occasionally that you get figures of Israelis killed and Palestinians killed
It is then you realise that Israel kills ten times more people than the
Palestinian "terrorists" do.

With those kind of figures any fuzzy feeling that the Palestinians are the "bad guys" or for the moderates that there is some kind of equality in the evil doing
is simply blown away.
If it isn't, if you continue to buy the stories where Israel is the poor victim
of the evil scheming vicious arabs then you are doing so in the face of
any reasonable evidence.
And once you are doing so, no evidence will ever sway you.
Because it is like religion
an article of faith.

The only thing that you can hope

is that if some people ask
and some people beg
and some people demand that
America reaches deep down into itself and discovers some decency
some genuine sense of right and wrong
that if the things they hold to be self evident really mean anything to them
then they will take what they already know and deal with it
and not with their fictions of why doing evil is good
or why killing is all about saving lives
why imprisonment is about freedom
and why torture is about people's rights.


Sorry to go on but if for example
you replace the letters USA with USSR
in the story about attacking it for spurious reasons,
occupying it and arranging for elections
stating that they are only there to secure the peace
that they intend to leave
while building 9 or more permanent military bases
and that Iraqis will have their own sovereignty while arranging
to have the largest embassy anywhere in the world
from which their "observers" will be in each Iraqi government department.

If that story had had the USSR involved and not the USA
no one in the world would buy it for a second.

We all and most loudly of all the U.S. would be saying that it was an occupation not liberation and that the soviets clearly had no intention of
ever leaving it.

Well the soviets have been gone for a while now , we all are so lucky that
the U.S. wishes to take over the title they created themselves of
Evil Empire.

Yes, because even if the moon were made of solid platinum mining it would be too expensive, and everyone knows Americans like to waste huge sums of money for nothing.

Well... the moon does have a lot of H3, which doesn't occur naturally on Earth. H3 could potentially be used as fuel for fusion power. Not exactly large sums of money for nothing. Also, the moon is a good base for launching ships to planets farther away. Because of the lower gravity and lack of atmosphere, you could build larger ships than on Earth. It'd be useful as a mining base, and shipyards.

I think I got a little off-topic there...

America is criticized so much because as a larger, more powerful nation, we have more influence in the world than almost any other country. A scapegoat for everything wrong with the world. Every country makes mistakes, no country has a perfect record...

Every nation has some blood on its hands. At least in America, people aren't butchered by the government, we can say anything we want and not be hauled off, we live without being lorded over by some massive government, and we welcome everyone.

I love this country. I was born here and I will die here. I've visited Europe. It was very pretty, lots of culture from ages long past, but I didn't like it there. It wasn't my land. Things were just wrong over there. America IS A GOOD PLACE TO LIVE. We are GOOD PEOPLE. I am not ashamed to live in America because of its past or its present. I like it here and I'm proud to live in a land where every culture from across the world can be found.

America has a dark past, but I think every land does. The Earth is stained with blood and one day, maybe we can escape that. That day is not today and probably not tomorrow, but let's face it. If you look at something other than some military campaigns, America rocks.

Now do you still think that America rocks?
Yes. What's your point? That no nation should ever have patriots because there have been many unjustified acts by the government?

*waves an American flag*

Thank you, I take that as quite a complement.

As for the new thread, it would probably turn out much like this one. The same points being said, the same insults being flung. Some early parts of this thread were quite nasty.

In the end, when I debate the merits and flaws of the US, it comes down to both sides agreeing that the US is better then alot of places, not as good as alot of places, a land of freedom for some, a forgien opressive hand for others, both sides agreeing that there has been and is good and bad, and the pro-American side saying that the good outweights the bad, and the bad normally has good intentions, while I say the the bad outweights the good, and that the bad is usually done out of self-intrest, and that there is more bad then you see/believe, while you say that I see/believe more bad then there is. Both sides (if both sides are intelligent and civil) acknowledge their commone ground, realise that they differ on opinion rather that fact, realise that further debate would be pointless, both understand where the other is comming from, both have a bit wider perspective then when they started, and both go home content. This, of course, is a best-case senerio, and it rarely works out like this, as both uber-patriots and basher sling ideology wraped in profanity at each other, and the whole thing breaks down.

::sigh::


Yeah, that pretty much sums things up. People need to learn to think out side the proverbial - not to mention clicheic - box. Take the world for what it REALLY is, and then judge it. Make no pretenses. It astounds me that people can be so content living in an ideological lie.

Every nation has some blood on its hands. At least in America, people aren't butchered by the government, we can say anything we want and not be hauled off, we live without being lorded over by some massive government, and we welcome everyone.

I love this country. I was born here and I will die here. I've visited Europe. It was very pretty, lots of culture from ages long past, but I didn't like it there. It wasn't my land. Things were just wrong over there. America IS A GOOD PLACE TO LIVE. We are GOOD PEOPLE. I am not ashamed to live in America because of its past or its present. I like it here and I'm proud to live in a land where every culture from across the world can be found.

America has a dark past, but I think every land does. The Earth is stained with blood and one day, maybe we can escape that. That day is not today and probably not tomorrow, but let's face it. If you look at something other than some military campaigns, America rocks.

No one here debated anything about american internal affairs, no one ever said that americans have bad lives, no one ever said that americans should hate its' own country; the point is that that same america HAVE CAUSED/IS CAUSING/ and as things are looking right now WILL BE CAUSING a lot of pain and killing outside its' borders. You say that all of those bad things are past, but what about current US politics? I mean, let's be straight here, is the world safer place now or was it before America attacked Iraq?

Hilter tried to control the whole world using military power only, he failed; still my heart hurts me for seeing that America is going to do what Hitler failed to do; in a profound, nice and perfidious way. The age of imperialism hasn't ended yet, we can all see where this is going.

I have spoken to a lot of americans, for your information I have even visited America; and I have met some tremendeous people; and you know what their problem was? they were not evil, they were good people, but they DID NOT KNOW or DID NOT CARE about anything outside America, and ignorance and not caring leads to believeing everything that your government tells you. No one there knew where Croatia or Serbia is, they all thought it was in Russia,; so how can you wonder when those same people support American bombing Yugoslavia/Iraq/Afganistan or any other country when only thing they know about these countries is that some evil, bloodlusty serbs/iraqis/afganistans are murdering innocente people and america is going there to free them, the same things that their government tells them. No one, or at least the biggest portion of them never asked themselves was that true or not. Why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE. America is a country for itself and people like Katzistanza and other like him are in minority. That's why america gets support from its' people in whatever they do. YES, you can tell me now that americans are rapidly against the war in Iraq, but have you asked yourself WHY? Because more and more americans are being killed, that's why. They didn't care when serbs or iraqis were being killed, but now americans are being killed, that's why american public is changing its' mind.

No one here wants you to hate your own country; all we want, or at least all I want that american public sees the whole truth, to become aware of its' country's actions and attrocities. Maybe, and only maybe they will begin to care about others; and maybe, and only maybe, then we can hava a more peaceful world in which american will be one of the good guys really defending freedom.

Every nation has some blood on its hands. At least in America, people aren't butchered by the government, we can say anything we want and not be hauled off, we live without being lorded over by some massive government, and we welcome everyone.

I love this country. I was born here and I will die here. I've visited Europe. It was very pretty, lots of culture from ages long past, but I didn't like it there. It wasn't my land. Things were just wrong over there. America IS A GOOD PLACE TO LIVE. We are GOOD PEOPLE. I am not ashamed to live in America because of its past or its present. I like it here and I'm proud to live in a land where every culture from across the world can be found.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you.
America has one of the highest poverty rates of any 1st world nation, and certainly the highest rich/poor divide. The average income in america is $22,500. A figure dragged up by the multitude of exploitative corporations driven by profit. (esso hang your head in shame.)

in the good 'ole usa, 7 BILLION sq feet of land is devoted to public assembly and religion, but only 0.25 billion sq feet is left for services to the homeless. this figure includes religious and private buildings used as soup kitchens etc.

did you ever see the play "Dick Whittington" its about a man who travels to london from the north of england because he hears that the "streets are paved with gold" and when he gets there it turns out to be a huge slum. That is how america is. The U.S. government would have us and anyone outside of the U.S. believe that america is the "land of the free", but only 40 years ago, a black man could be lynched on the street for looking at a white woman too long, and the government wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Life in america is good


if you're rich and blinded by government propaganda

No one here debated anything about american internal affairs, no one ever said that americans have bad lives, no one ever said that americans should hate its' own country; the point is that that same america HAVE CAUSED/IS CAUSING/ and as things are looking right now WILL BE CAUSING a lot of pain and killing outside its' borders. You say that all of those bad things are past, but what about current US politics? I mean, let's be straight here, is the world safer place now or was it before America attacked Iraq?

Hilter tried to control the whole world using military power only, he failed; still my heart hurts me for seeing that America is going to do what Hitler failed to do; in a profound, nice and perfidious way. The age of imperialism hasn't ended yet, we can all see where this is going.

I have spoken to a lot of americans, for your information I have even visited America; and I have met some tremendeous people; and you know what their problem was? they were not evil, they were good people, but they DID NOT KNOW or DID NOT CARE about anything outside America, and ignorance and not caring leads to believeing everything that your government tells you. No one there knew where Croatia or Serbia is, they all thought it was in Russia,; so how can you wonder when those same people support American bombing Yugoslavia/Iraq/Afganistan or any other country when only thing they know about these countries is that some evil, bloodlusty serbs/iraqis/afganistans are murdering innocente people and america is going there to free them, the same things that their government tells them. No one, or at least the biggest portion of them never asked themselves was that true or not. Why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE. America is a country for itself and people like Katzistanza and other like him are in minority. That's why america gets support from its' people in whatever they do. YES, you can tell me now that americans are rapidly against the war in Iraq, but have you asked yourself WHY? Because more and more americans are being killed, that's why. They didn't care when serbs or iraqis were being killed, but now americans are being killed, that's why american public is changing its' mind.

No one here wants you to hate your own country; all we want, or at least all I want that american public sees the whole truth, to become aware of its' country's actions and attrocities. Maybe, and only maybe they will begin to care about others; and maybe, and only maybe, then we can hava a more peaceful world in which american will be one of the good guys really defending freedom.

here here

BTW... go to [URL=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/antic/]

No one here debated anything about american internal affairs, no one ever said that americans have bad lives, no one ever said that americans should hate its' own country; the point is that that same america HAVE CAUSED/IS CAUSING/ and as things are looking right now WILL BE CAUSING a lot of pain and killing outside its' borders. You say that all of those bad things are past, but what about current US politics? I mean, let's be straight here, is the world safer place now or was it before America attacked Iraq?

Hilter tried to control the whole world using military power only, he failed; still my heart hurts me for seeing that America is going to do what Hitler failed to do; in a profound, nice and perfidious way. The age of imperialism hasn't ended yet, we can all see where this is going.

I have spoken to a lot of americans, for your information I have even visited America; and I have met some tremendeous people; and you know what their problem was? they were not evil, they were good people, but they DID NOT KNOW or DID NOT CARE about anything outside America, and ignorance and not caring leads to believeing everything that your government tells you. No one there knew where Croatia or Serbia is, they all thought it was in Russia,; so how can you wonder when those same people support American bombing Yugoslavia/Iraq/Afganistan or any other country when only thing they know about these countries is that some evil, bloodlusty serbs/iraqis/afganistans are murdering innocente people and america is going there to free them, the same things that their government tells them. No one, or at least the biggest portion of them never asked themselves was that true or not. Why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE. America is a country for itself and people like Katzistanza and other like him are in minority. That's why america gets support from its' people in whatever they do. YES, you can tell me now that americans are rapidly against the war in Iraq, but have you asked yourself WHY? Because more and more americans are being killed, that's why. They didn't care when serbs or iraqis were being killed, but now americans are being killed, that's why american public is changing its' mind.

No one here wants you to hate your own country; all we want, or at least all I want that american public sees the whole truth, to become aware of its' country's actions and attrocities. Maybe, and only maybe they will begin to care about others; and maybe, and only maybe, then we can hava a more peaceful world in which american will be one of the good guys really defending freedom.

Actually, someone did argue regarding American internal affairs. It just wasn't you, so I'll leave it alone.
I still want to know what your ultimate purpose is. Everything you've brought up is old news. Granted, the actions of the American dictatorship are no more right or wrong now than they were at the time of their commission. I simply want to understand. To my knowledge, America hasn't done much in/with Serbia, so I can't imagine anything we've done being particularly traumatizing. Offensive, sure; our government offends me rather frequently. I'm just hard pressed to believe that is is all just to spread the whole truth when a great many important details have been left out, including issues such as why we opened fire in Somalia (a not-so-bad thing), why we installed the Shah in Iran (a very, VERY bad thing), and the Mexican War (a not all good or bad thing).

Yes. What's your point? That no nation should ever have patriots because there have been many unjustified acts by the government?

*waves an American flag*


The problem isn't that there are patriotic americans.

Surely to be a patriotic american means believing and supporting
the ideals of the united states.

Most of your flag waving war supporting citizenry quite obviously
don't support those ideals.
They are supporting aggressive war against other nations.
They are supporting a government that perverts everything that
the united states claims it stands for.

The blind support of any particular government regardless of what
they do is not patriotism.
Patriotism isn't being willing to send your sons and daughters off to
kill the foreigners, or to be killed by them.

The United States slaughter of vietnamese was not something
that a patriot would support.
Support for the war in Iraq is no more patriotic than the people
who supported McCarthy in that era of attack on freedom of speech.
No more patriotic than the people who sought to keep southern blacks
from voting.


Wave the flag all you like
but remember it is dripping in blood and the US government is doing
its bit to keep the blood fresh and flowing.

I believe it was Ghandi who said that he liked Christ it was Christians he
wasn't all that keen on.
Most of the world love the ideals the US claims to have,
they just cannot stand what the US actually does.

The actions of the US like those of Hitler, horrify most of the world.
Unlike Hitler, that feeling of horror is also tinged with regret and disappointment.
No one expected much of Hitler, we had rather hoped that the US could
be held to a higher standard.

America is criticized so much because as a larger, more powerful nation, we have more influence in the world than almost any other country. A scapegoat for everything wrong with the world. Every country makes mistakes, no country has a perfect record...

Please, we have about 15 pages of this exact same sentence over and over. If this is all you have to say, don't bother, it's been said.

I love this country. I was born here and I will die here. I've visited Europe. It was very pretty, lots of culture from ages long past, but I didn't like it there. It wasn't my land. Things were just wrong over there. America IS A GOOD PLACE TO LIVE. We are GOOD PEOPLE. I am not ashamed to live in America because of its past or its present. I like it here and I'm proud to live in a land where every culture from across the world can be found.

If you look at something other than some military campaigns, America rocks.

The US is not a great place to live for many people.

We have, as someone pointed out, amoungst the highest crime rate, highest murder rate, and highest poverty rate of any developed nation.

We deny marrage based on something that is none of the government's damn business.

We are becomming, especially in many southern and midwestern states, a religious theocracy. (as a not here, I am a devout Christain, but I would not like this country to be governed as such, first off because it's not fair to members of other religions and would be a violation of freedom of religion, and almost more importantly, the Christain Right poports a twisted, flawed version of Christianity that offended me as a person and a Christain)

In many cities, you cannot go out after dark, and must be warry in broad daylight, lest you are robbed, raped, beaten, or shot.

economic levels are very much stratified by race

I still want to know what your ultimate purpose is.

His ultimate purpose wasn't directed at you, it was directed at those who have never heard of any of these things. The good side is shown alot in the US, he was trying to show the side that doesn't get shown.

The US is not a great place to live for many people.

We have, as someone pointed out, amoungst the highest crime rate, highest murder rate, and highest poverty rate of any developed nation.

We deny marrage based on something that is none of the government's damn business.

We are becomming, especially in many southern and midwestern states, a religious theocracy. (as a not here, I am a devout Christain, but I would not like this country to be governed as such, first off because it's not fair to members of other religions and would be a violation of freedom of religion, and almost more importantly, the Christain Right poports a twisted, flawed version of Christianity that offended me as a person and a Christain)

In many cities, you cannot go out after dark, and must be warry in broad daylight, lest you are robbed, raped, beaten, or shot.

economic levels are very much stratified by race



His ultimate purpose wasn't directed at you, it was directed at those who have never heard of any of these things. The good side is shown alot in the US, he was trying to show the side that doesn't get shown.

Exactly.

The US is not a great place to live for many people.

We have, as someone pointed out, amoungst the highest crime rate, highest murder rate, and highest poverty rate of any developed nation.

We deny marrage based on something that is none of the government's damn business.

We are becomming, especially in many southern and midwestern states, a religious theocracy. (as a not here, I am a devout Christain, but I would not like this country to be governed as such, first off because it's not fair to members of other religions and would be a violation of freedom of religion, and almost more importantly, the Christain Right poports a twisted, flawed version of Christianity that offended me as a person and a Christain)

In many cities, you cannot go out after dark, and must be warry in broad daylight, lest you are robbed, raped, beaten, or shot.

economic levels are very much stratified by race



His ultimate purpose wasn't directed at you, it was directed at those who have never heard of any of these things. The good side is shown alot in the US, he was trying to show the side that doesn't get shown.

:rolleyes:

If I can go a day without hearing all the bad sides of the U.S. I might not have to beat little children at the elementary.

You make it sound like we fear walking out on the streets at night. We just have common sense. I could wait until nightfall and walk out to the streets in front of my house right now and walk around until dawn. Chances are I'll be damn well safe. But is it smart? No. Is it logical? No. Would a cop find me and tell me to get the hell home? Yeah.

And the theocracy thing only applies to governmental laws and such. Not day-to-day living. As of yet, nothing by President Bush has affected me directly. And yet I'm still against him, don't make that assumption.

Day-to-day living in the U.S. is quite comfortable. Your accusations are for our major cities. The U.S. is a huge country and there's plenty of cities to get away from the major ones.

Geez. Making it sound like we're scared shitless of our own country. Well we're not. We grew up here and we love it despite all the problems that other people exaggerate and accuse it of affectting our daily-lives.

I find it sad that when someone expresses his love for a country such as the U.S., people go out of their way to assume that it's blind patriotism and that these people know nothing of reality. And these people won't stop until an entire thread agrees with them that the U.S. is a terrible nation.

The only native americans, anthropologically speaking, are American Indians. America was their land until Europeans took it away from them.



Most of the things you brought up I consider to be rather silly, but I will comment on this one. It is not up to a Serbian (or anyone who doesn't live here) to say who is or isn't a "native American." I'll admit that "Indian" hardly describes the aboriginal inhabitants of the Americas, but neither does "native American." A native anything is a person who was born in a specific place. You, for example, are a native Serb. You're also a native European. People of European or Serbian descent born in America are no longer native Europeans or Serbians, they are native Americans. Yes, many centuries ago the original Americans were conquered by Europeans, just as the Norsemen, Danes, and Normans conquered England (and the Romans before any of them). Does that mean that people born in England who are of Danish or Norse descent are not native Englishmen? How about the peoples of the former Empire who were born in England? Are they not native Englishmen? My answer would be Yes, just as I consider myself a native American for having been born here. It's also true that I have ancestors who have lived in this country since 1630, and I also have American Indian blood, but that isn't what makes me a native American. Being born here is what does that. My wife's ancestors didn't come to this country until the early 1900s, and had nothing to do with the European conquest of the Indians, and I consider her to be a native American too. I can see why the indigenous peoples don't like being called Indians, but they have no right to usurp the term Native Americans, either.

We deny marrage based on something that is none of the government's damn business.

.

Actually, every country in the world considers itself to have the right to determine what is and what isn't a valid marriage. That's why in most countries, a church or village marriage isn't considered sufficient. A state-issued marriage license is needed as well.

I love America, but I don't disagree with you either. Our government sucks, quite personally, and I doubt very many people will disagree with that. Understand though, it's the government, not the citizens, who commit those hypocritical acts. I love America because it's beautiful and the people are nice, plus we have alot of freedom. Not because we're perfect or our government is grand.

People never elect government officials hoping they will go to war with every weak country they turn against. We elect them hoping they can maintain the peace.

The problem isn't that there are patriotic americans.

Surely to be a patriotic american means believing and supporting
the ideals of the united states.

Most of your flag waving war supporting citizenry quite obviously
don't support those ideals.
They are supporting aggressive war against other nations.
They are supporting a government that perverts everything that
the united states claims it stands for.

The blind support of any particular government regardless of what
they do is not patriotism.
Patriotism isn't being willing to send your sons and daughters off to
kill the foreigners, or to be killed by them.

The United States slaughter of vietnamese was not something
that a patriot would support.
Support for the war in Iraq is no more patriotic than the people
who supported McCarthy in that era of attack on freedom of speech.
No more patriotic than the people who sought to keep southern blacks
from voting.


Wave the flag all you like
but remember it is dripping in blood and the US government is doing
its bit to keep the blood fresh and flowing.

I believe it was Ghandi who said that he liked Christ it was Christians he
wasn't all that keen on.
Most of the world love the ideals the US claims to have,
they just cannot stand what the US actually does.

The actions of the US like those of Hitler, horrify most of the world.
Unlike Hitler, that feeling of horror is also tinged with regret and disappointment.
No one expected much of Hitler, we had rather hoped that the US could
be held to a higher standard.
Your argument would be so much better if there wasn't a Hitler reference. I don't see how an obvious genocide based on religous discrimination and white supremecy can even be compared to accidental or even accidental shooting of innocents.

And if your going to call the U.S. on it's blood-dripping flag, you might want to first turn and look at our European friends who have been doing this for hundreds of years. Apparently if your still sore about Vietnam, I don't see why anyone shouldn't still be sore about the Spaniards starting slavery. Or the British colonizing North America and starting the fight AGAINST Native Americans. Or forcing American colonists to fight their war against Native Americans.

Come now...is it not all in the past? This is the 21st century and if we're still acting like it's the 20th century and refusing to forgive and forget then that's just strange.

Geez. Making it sound like we're scared shitless of our own country. Well we're not. We grew up here and we love it despite all the problems that other people exaggerate and accuse it of affectting our daily-lives.

While we are hardly a nation that has a reputation for chaos everywhere you look we are a violent nation. The murder rate in this country is horrid and this is the country that can be proud to be filled with serial killers after all.

While we are hardly a nation that has a reputation for chaos everywhere you look we are a violent nation. The murder rate in this country is horrid and this is the country that can be proud to be filled with serial killers after all.
How many times have you been murdered recently? HMM?

How many times have you been murdered recently? HMM?

The question must be rhetorical. :rolleyes: But have you seen our murder rate? I'm just glad I don't live in some larger city.

The question must be rhetorical. :rolleyes: But have you seen our murder rate? I'm just glad I don't live in some larger city.
But you agree that you haven't been murdered in recent years? :D So obviously being a victim of murder isn't a problem for you, as you are alive! ;)

The problem isn't that there are patriotic americans.

Surely to be a patriotic american means believing and supporting
the ideals of the united states.

Most of your flag waving war supporting citizenry quite obviously
don't support those ideals.
They are supporting aggressive war against other nations.
They are supporting a government that perverts everything that
the united states claims it stands for.

The blind support of any particular government regardless of what
they do is not patriotism.
Patriotism isn't being willing to send your sons and daughters off to
kill the foreigners, or to be killed by them.

The United States slaughter of vietnamese was not something
that a patriot would support.
Support for the war in Iraq is no more patriotic than the people
who supported McCarthy in that era of attack on freedom of speech.
No more patriotic than the people who sought to keep southern blacks
from voting.


Wave the flag all you like
but remember it is dripping in blood and the US government is doing
its bit to keep the blood fresh and flowing.

I believe it was Ghandi who said that he liked Christ it was Christians he
wasn't all that keen on.
Most of the world love the ideals the US claims to have,
they just cannot stand what the US actually does.

The actions of the US like those of Hitler, horrify most of the world.
Unlike Hitler, that feeling of horror is also tinged with regret and disappointment.
No one expected much of Hitler, we had rather hoped that the US could
be held to a higher standard.
Colodia is wrong. This is an excellent post, even up to and including the mention of Hitler. Hitler wasn't some mythical demon, he was real, a man, flesh and blood. And just as Hitler was capable of seemingly inhuman acts, so too are we all. That is why we must be vigilant, and guard against that unfortunate tendency to seek affirmation through dictatorial strongmen in times of uncertainty and angst.

Thank you Relative Power.

I love America, but I don't disagree with you either. Our government sucks, quite personally, and I doubt very many people will disagree with that. Understand though, it's the government, not the citizens, who commit those hypocritical acts. I love America because it's beautiful and the people are nice, plus we have alot of freedom. Not because we're perfect or our government is grand.

People never elect government officials hoping they will go to war with every weak country they turn against. We elect them hoping they can maintain the peace.

By "government," do you mean our system of government (Constitution, etc.) or the people currently running the government (which includes the president, cabinet, Congress, Supreme Court, state and local elected and appointed officials, etc.)? Or do you just not like Bush and his crew? There IS a difference, you know. I don't like Bush, but I like our system of government and some of our elected officials, such as my Congressman.

Your argument would be so much better if there wasn't a Hitler reference. I don't see how an obvious genocide based on religous discrimination and white supremecy can even be compared to accidental or even accidental shooting of innocents.

And if your going to call the U.S. on it's blood-dripping flag, you might want to first turn and look at our European friends who have been doing this for hundreds of years. Apparently if your still sore about Vietnam, I don't see why anyone shouldn't still be sore about the Spaniards starting slavery. Or the British colonizing North America and starting the fight AGAINST Native Americans. Or forcing American colonists to fight their war against Native Americans.

Come now...is it not all in the past? This is the 21st century and if we're still acting like it's the 20th century and refusing to forgive and forget then that's just strange.


Now we are right back to the sullen teenage delinquent excuse.
Supposedly your country should not be held to account for its horrendous
actions because others have been guilty of horrendous actions in the past.

Why do you have laws within your country?
What is a murderer doing that other people didn't do in the past?
What is a child rapist doing that other people in the past did and got away with?

Your country signed up to a great many documents in which it agreed to
certain rules regarding war etc.
Your country is currently the biggest threat to peace in the world,
so you will have to forgive us for not focussing on the crimes as indeed
they were of other countries in the past.

But to take just one example.

Germany started the second world war.
They lost.
Because of that, the architects of that war and the treatment of people
held in prisons and/ or concentration camps
where that treatment was in breach of the self same rules that your
government is guilty of were tried and where appropriate convicted of
war crimes.
The court that did so declared that
To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime, it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.

So, the leaders were executed or imprisoned.
The state itself has since that time regularly expressed its regret at what happened
and its peoples part in it.
It has also determined that it will never go down that route again.

By contrast,
The US lost the war in Vietnam but as doing so had no impact on the US,
it didn't mean you ended up with the viet minh in Washington.
Because of that,
your leaders of that time were never held to account,
your country has never expressed much regret at the evils done to the
vietnamese (the only regret you seem to have is that in the course
of slaughtering somewhere between 1.5 million and 5 million vietnamese
it cost more than 50,000 american soldiers lives)
Finally of course your country has not expressed a determination to
never go down that route again ,except in so far as you never intend to lose quite so many of your own soldiers again.

And so your country continues to commit such crimes and those of
you ignorant and juvenile enough to think to excuse them will find that
governments that get away with horrendous treatment of people
outside their borders eventually import those processes back home to
deal with their own citizenry. After all its so much more handy to
simply be able to imprison those who annoy you.
Torture tends on the whole to get confessions, so even people there is
little evidence against can be imprisoned.
Assuming they want to keep up the whole trial, judge and jury system.

International law is clearly not in your country's interests
don't be too surprised when your government decides domestic law
is also not in your country's interests.

Now we are right back to the sullen teenage delinquent excuse.
Supposedly your country should not be held to account for its horrendous
actions because others have been guilty of horrendous actions in the past.

Why do you have laws within your country?
What is a murderer doing that other people didn't do in the past?
What is a child rapist doing that other people in the past did and got away with?

Your country signed up to a great many documents in which it agreed to
certain rules regarding war etc.
Your country is currently the biggest threat to peace in the world,
so you will have to forgive us for not focussing on the crimes as indeed
they were of other countries in the past.

But to take just one example.

Germany started the second world war.
They lost.
Because of that, the architects of that war and the treatment of people
held in prisons and/ or concentration camps
where that treatment was in breach of the self same rules that your
government is guilty of were tried and where appropriate convicted of
war crimes.
The court that did so declared that
To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime, it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.

So, the leaders were executed or imprisoned.
The state itself has since that time regularly expressed its regret at what happened
and its peoples part in it.
It has also determined that it will never go down that route again.

By contrast,
The US lost the war in Vietnam but as doing so had no impact on the US,
it didn't mean you ended up with the viet minh in Washington.
Because of that,
your leaders of that time were never held to account,
your country has never expressed much regret at the evils done to the
vietnamese (the only regret you seem to have is that in the course
of slaughtering somewhere between 1.5 million and 5 million vietnamese
it cost more than 50,000 american soldiers lives)
Finally of course your country has not expressed a determination to
never go down that route again ,except in so far as you never intend to lose quite so many of your own soldiers again.

And so your country continues to commit such crimes and those of
you ignorant and juvenile enough to think to excuse them will find that
governments that get away with horrendous treatment of people
outside their borders eventually import those processes back home to
deal with their own citizenry. After all its so much more handy to
simply be able to imprison those who annoy you.
Torture tends on the whole to get confessions, so even people there is
little evidence against can be imprisoned.
Assuming they want to keep up the whole trial, judge and jury system.

International law is clearly not in your country's interests
don't be too surprised when your government decides domestic law
is also not in your country's interests.


Is this written is some kind of blank verse or something?

Is this written is some kind of blank verse or something?

nope

His ultimate purpose wasn't directed at you, it was directed at those who have never heard of any of these things. The good side is shown alot in the US, he was trying to show the side that doesn't get shown.
I understand this whole thing was nothing personal. The Serbian gentleman even specified earlier that his aggression was largely directed at the American governing body and the "majority" that elected it, not just Americans in general. Thus ended my defensive tirade. I'm past defending any points. As you've pointed out to someone else, everything's really all been said. It seems to me that further squabble is merely a failure to agree to disagree. I could be wrong; however. At this point, I simply wish to understand.
Serbian: Let me rephrase this in the form of two questions. A) What initiated this whole thing? B) What is your ultimate motivation? It seems to me that, if it really were all about offering up the truth, you'd have stated all the facts in their entirety and left it at that. Instead, you pushed and, in many cases, pushed back. This is the sort of topic that most people who aren't Katz and me will be difficult to reason with. I think you're a logical, intelligent enough man to know this.
As I said, I'm neither attacking nor defending, but merely looking to understand. If you'd prefer, I won't even make a subsequent comment regarding your reasoning. Just make me understand those two things, please.

I understand this whole thing was nothing personal. The Serbian gentleman even specified earlier that his aggression was largely directed at the American governing body and the "majority" that elected it, not just Americans in general. Thus ended my defensive tirade. I'm past defending any points. As you've pointed out to someone else, everything's really all been said. It seems to me that further squabble is merely a failure to agree to disagree. I could be wrong; however. At this point, I simply wish to understand.
Serbian: Let me rephrase this in the form of two questions. A) What initiated this whole thing? B) What is your ultimate motivation? It seems to me that, if it really were all about offering up the truth, you'd have stated all the facts in their entirety and left it at that. Instead, you pushed and, in many cases, pushed back. This is the sort of topic that most people who aren't Katz and me will be difficult to reason with. I think you're a logical, intelligent enough man to know this.
As I said, I'm neither attacking nor defending, but merely looking to understand. If you'd prefer, I won't even make a subsequent comment regarding your reasoning. Just make me understand those two things, please.


I’ll gladly answer. But before you read my answer maybe you should read all the posts I posted here again.

A) What initiated me was that I am sick of American conceitedness, I am sick of American labeling others as “evil, bad, criminal, terrorist”, I am sick of America saying “we are defenders of freedom and democracy; who is not with us is against us”, I am sick of Americans asking themselves “why do they hate us?”, I am sick of America being the world cop, I am sick of America being such a hypocrite, I am sick of America “bringing justice and freedom to oppressed people by cluster bombs”. YES, you may wonder now what does that concern me or why only speaking about American crimes; and the answer is – there are not many like me. Most of the people don’t know/don’t care and, unfortunately, don’t believe. There are enough people in the world already speaking about Serbian atrocities, about Soviet crimes, about Saddam’s crimes and all other countries’; I am simply revealing American atrocities and crimes, we have a moral obligation to future generations to tell the whole truth; imagine what would happen if world has decided that after the WW II no one was allowed to mention Nazi atrocities? Ignorance is crime towards mind – so we could say that America (and rest of the world) is full with criminals. You are not, but most of others are. The truth is my guidance, no matter the cost. Terrorists are bad people, they fight with weapons, just because they are against America don’t think that I support them; crime is a crime, no matter who commits it. I fight with knowledge. YES, you can also wonder now what use of saying all of this in this forum, and the answer to this is – Even the longest journey begins with the first step. A lot of people here did not know this so I just gave them a chance to learn; as I have said before – dead cannot speak for themselves. I think this pretty much covers the second question as well. But to make the full answer – yes, I pushed and pushed back with facts that supported my original post. People were denying me, calling me a liar; so if I hadn’t brought up the facts that proved my statements I’d either be considered a liar or, which seems to be popular among American patriots, “a commie or a terrorist, or both”. I am probably considered a commie anyway but if I made only a single person to think, than all of this was worth-while.

Trust me, I have given a lot of thought about how to answer your questions, and maybe this is not the whole answer but it’s hard to answer such a question in such short time. As your comment is concerned, I’d be happy to hear it; even more, we can exchange emails if you’d like to talk to me about the subject.

I see you've been taking notes from Michael Moore and his ilk, Serbian Baranja. I've seen Fahrenheit 9/11, and can disprove most of what he said here. (http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm)
You've obviously also seen Bowling for Columbine. That movie was just a steaming pile of bull$hit, so I won't waste my time on it.

That out of the way, hell yes, America rocks. All told, we have one of the most free, fairest, perhaps best nations in the world. I was born American by the grace of God and love it. If necessary, I will fight to preserve all the freedoms that she guarantees to the huddled masses.

Now, sir, I don't look down on the people of the rest of the world. Most of them are good people- hard-working, peace-loving, all-told good people. Now, I don't like some causes (terrorism, communism, fascism), and don't approve of others (radicalism, liberalism, anarchism), most people are good. Even if they prescribe to one of the aforementioned categories, they might be good.

But hell yes, America rocks. I love her, and hope to spend the end of my time on this earth on her soil.

I see you've been taking notes from Michael Moore and his ilk, Serbian Baranja. I've seen Fahrenheit 9/11, and can disprove most of what he said here. (http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm)
You've obviously also seen Bowling for Columbine. That movie was just a steaming pile of bull$hit, so I won't waste my time on it.

That out of the way, hell yes, America rocks. All told, we have one of the most free, fairest, perhaps best nations in the world. I was born American by the grace of God and love it. If necessary, I will fight to preserve all the freedoms that she guarantees to the huddled masses.

Now, sir, I don't look down on the people of the rest of the world. Most of them are good people- hard-working, peace-loving, all-told good people. Now, I don't like some causes (terrorism, communism, fascism), and don't approve of others (radicalism, liberalism, anarchism), most people are good. Even if they prescribe to one of the aforementioned categories, they might be good.

But hell yes, America rocks. I love her, and hope to spend the end of my time on this earth on her soil.

Actually, to tell you the truth I have never seen Fahrenheit 9/11 nor Bowling for Columbine. My sources are something else: independent journalists, civil right activists and other honest people seeking for the truth.

Judging by your words you obviously didn't read the whole thread and things I posted otherwise you wouldn't be defending your freedom, not because I think you're liaing but because I never debated American internal affairs.

This thread is purely to show what your country has been doing to others; you don't have to believe me, you can go and live in your freedom and democracy but remember one thing, millions of people died by weapons of that democracy.

If you have intentions to reply on this one, please read all the posts I have written in this thread because most of the things you have implied about me are already explained.

No, America does not rock. America is awful at playing accoustic and America seems to have difficulty reaching high notes. America's sound just is to earth quakey and not enough smooth lyrical jolts such as Japan. But keep on trying after the break we see which continent is the new lead singer of an old band that stop having hits years before it's lead singer died.

I'm not so exited about America, I'm quite happy to be European, but I still think it shows pretty bad judgement to claim America to be a totally shitty place. Every nation has done wrong in the history and fussed with innocent lives. I think Mr. Bush doesn't rock but there are many politicians who are just as bad or even worse, or what do you think of Italy's Silvio Berlusconi whose main concern is his new hair removal? It's good to talk about errors and try to correct them but in that case people shouldn't take just one nation and claim it to be totally evil. As a neighbour of Russia I would like to suggest it as an alternative.
Finland rocks! (Well, at least most of the time)

Is this written is some kind of blank verse or something?

I think he was on acid at the time. ;)

I'm not so exited about America, I'm quite happy to be European, but I still think it shows pretty bad judgement to claim America to be a totally shitty place. Every nation has done wrong in the history and fussed with innocent lives. I think Mr. Bush doesn't rock but there are many politicians who are just as bad or even worse, or what do you think of Italy's Silvio Berlusconi whose main concern is his new hair removal? It's good to talk about errors and try to correct them but in that case people shouldn't take just one nation and claim it to be totally evil. As a neighbour of Russia I would like to suggest it as an alternative.
Finland rocks! (Well, at least most of the time)

Please, next time you want to write something like this first take a GOOD LOOK at the facts posted here; then try diggin up some info yourself, then give a good thought about that and then come here and make comments.

Berlusconi? just how many people have died because of his hair transfer?

Yes, many countries have done bad, but most of them changed their courses, as with America, they are still doing the same.

I agree with you on one thing - Finland rocks, yeah (especially Mika Hakkinen)

I’ll gladly answer. But before you read my answer maybe you should read all the posts I posted here again.

A) What initiated me was that I am sick of American conceitedness, I am sick of American labeling others as “evil, bad, criminal, terrorist”, I am sick of America saying “we are defenders of freedom and democracy; who is not with us is against us”, I am sick of Americans asking themselves “why do they hate us?”, I am sick of America being the world cop, I am sick of America being such a hypocrite, I am sick of America “bringing justice and freedom to oppressed people by cluster bombs”. YES, you may wonder now what does that concern me or why only speaking about American crimes; and the answer is – there are not many like me. Most of the people don’t know/don’t care and, unfortunately, don’t believe. There are enough people in the world already speaking about Serbian atrocities, about Soviet crimes, about Saddam’s crimes and all other countries’; I am simply revealing American atrocities and crimes, we have a moral obligation to future generations to tell the whole truth; imagine what would happen if world has decided that after the WW II no one was allowed to mention Nazi atrocities? Ignorance is crime towards mind – so we could say that America (and rest of the world) is full with criminals. You are not, but most of others are. The truth is my guidance, no matter the cost. Terrorists are bad people, they fight with weapons, just because they are against America don’t think that I support them; crime is a crime, no matter who commits it. I fight with knowledge. YES, you can also wonder now what use of saying all of this in this forum, and the answer to this is – Even the longest journey begins with the first step. A lot of people here did not know this so I just gave them a chance to learn; as I have said before – dead cannot speak for themselves. I think this pretty much covers the second question as well. But to make the full answer – yes, I pushed and pushed back with facts that supported my original post. People were denying me, calling me a liar; so if I hadn’t brought up the facts that proved my statements I’d either be considered a liar or, which seems to be popular among American patriots, “a commie or a terrorist, or both”. I am probably considered a commie anyway but if I made only a single person to think, than all of this was worth-while.

Trust me, I have given a lot of thought about how to answer your questions, and maybe this is not the whole answer but it’s hard to answer such a question in such short time. As your comment is concerned, I’d be happy to hear it; even more, we can exchange emails if you’d like to talk to me about the subject.


Okay, so this was partly a vent for anger, partly a "last straw" after reading/hearing/seeing something in the news, and partly an "on the fly" nugget of info with a lot of thought. I see.
At this point, you and I are simply going to disagree on any further issues regarding the manner and level of the evils of America. I'm fine with that. People shouldn't all see things the same way. If we did, we would cease to progress as a race. But at this point, I respect your opinion, even if it isn't mine.

I’d like everyone here to read this, just to get the full picture of the USA (a country which, according to some of you, rocks)

I’ll try to be brief. After the WW II, America is the country that has committed the greatest number of crimes against mankind. Here is the list of all countries that have been attacked by America:

China 1945-46.
Korea 1950-53.
China 1950-53.
Guatemala 1954.
Indonesia 1958.
Cuba 1959-60.
Guatemala 1960.
Kongo 1964.
Peru 1965.
Laos 1964-73.
Vietnam 1961-73.
Kambodia 1969-70.
Guatemala 1967-69.
Grenada 1983.
Lebanon 1984.
Libia 1986.
El Salvador 1980s
Nikaragua 1980s
Panama 1989.
Sudan 1998.
Afghanistan 1998.
Yugoslavia 1999.
Iraq 1991-2003.

Only in these cruel aggression millions of civilians lost their lives; And all of that because America was “defending freedom.” You know, the funny thing is that only America is allowed, probably by their god, to bomb other countries to defend freedom, while when someone else does that, it is considered a war crime. Great country that America is, right?

Another funny thing about America is this latest war on terrorism. Now, let one thing be clear, I certainly don’t support terrorism and I am against any violence. America is, by their own words, a leader in the world’s fight against terrorism. That sounds good, right? But have you ever asked yourself how were those terrorist organizations found? Or even better, who supported them?? The answer is, my dear America lovers, AMERICA. Let’s take Talibans for instance. While they were fighting soviets, they were good, America supported them every way it could. America was giving them weapons, was training their members, even Osama Bin Laden himself was trained by the CIA. But no, back then, while they were against soviets, they weren’t terrorists, and now when they turned against USA, now they are.

Or let’s take Iraq for instance, you’re going to love this. In 1963 when it became possible to nationalize Iraq Petroleum Company, CIA brought Ba’ath party to power, you’re guessing whose party that was – YES, Saddam Hussein’s party. During his invasion on Iran, guess who gave him his support – AMERICA. Back than, many civil right groups were telling the USA to stop supporting Saddam because he was using nerve gas against Iranian soldiers and Kurds, but back then, Saddam was their friend, so his crimes were not actually crimes because he was a friend of the USA and USA does not commit crimes. Many people think that Al Quaida’s camps were the main source of terrorists, but that’s not true. There is a military base in Georgia, called Fort Benning. Only in this base, America trained around 60 000 Latin American soldiers, policemen and others; what is so bad about that you might wonder? 2/3 of the officers who committed terrible crimes in El Salvador were trained there. Their “products” from Fort Benning committed horrible crimes in Chile, Grenada. Guatemala and Panama, and guess what? America supported them in all of their actions.

William Blum, an ex State Department officer, who is now a big criticizer of the USA said that after the WWII America bombed 23 countries, The largest intervention in Vietnam took away 58 000 American lives and around 4 000 000 (yes, that’s millions) of Vietnamese lives. The uprising in Indonesia in 1965-68 was also supported by America – result: over a million of dead. There is another interesting event that newspapers hardly ever mentioned – a holocaust in Cambodia in 1969-1970; American bombing killed over 600 000 settlers and opened a road to savage actions by Red Kmers. Laos, a nearby country to Cambodia still contains thousands of cluster bombs that were tested there by America still kill thousands of people a year. But why would America care, I mean, after all they are still among countries that never adopted international agreement that forbids using mines, also agreement that forbids using bio or chemical weapons, they never accepted the international court of justice, Children rights convention, Kyoto protocol and more.

A Congress investigation in 1992 discovered that Bush senior and his advisers had ordered a cover up of illegal weapons shipments to Iraq via other countries. The Congress library still has papers where it’s shown that America supplied Iraq with chemical weapons (Antrax virus developed in Maryland), I guess it’s business first for America, as long as their clients kill other non Americans.

And this is only a small part.

Now do you still think that America rocks?


GET OVER YOURSELF.

If you go back far enough you can say the same about the Roman empire, the British Empire. Yes American Administrations over the years have a lot to answer for, you could also go out on a limb and say as Presidents are elected directly by the ppl, the American Admins of the past and present are a direct expression of the American ppl-yet it only takes 50% to win-few presidents have surpassed this quota by a vast percentage.
I vehemently oppose the Bush administration, yet I still love America, Most Americans I have met are warm and friendly. I have only been to New York and Boston as handful of times but I throughly enjoyed meeting the people and experiencing their culture.
The world has for centuries been completely messed up, you can't blame an entire population-a government yes. I'm Irish-is it my fault the IRA and Unionist are such scum? No its not. Lay the blame where it belongs.

I see you've been taking notes from Michael Moore and his ilk, Serbian Baranja. I've seen Fahrenheit 9/11, and can disprove most of what he said here. (http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm)
You've obviously also seen Bowling for Columbine. That movie was just a steaming pile of bull$hit, so I won't waste my time on it.

That out of the way, hell yes, America rocks. All told, we have one of the most free, fairest, perhaps best nations in the world. I was born American by the grace of God and love it. If necessary, I will fight to preserve all the freedoms that she guarantees to the huddled masses.

Now, sir, I don't look down on the people of the rest of the world. Most of them are good people- hard-working, peace-loving, all-told good people. Now, I don't like some causes (terrorism, communism, fascism), and don't approve of others (radicalism, liberalism, anarchism), most people are good. Even if they prescribe to one of the aforementioned categories, they might be good.

But hell yes, America rocks. I love her, and hope to spend the end of my time on this earth on her soil.


So, have you fought? It's funny. I hear so many neo-cons talk about fighting for America, but they never do. They never will. You can discuss your will to fight after you've been there, you've seen how the troops are REALLY treated, and you've found something solid and real and pertinent to you to fight for. Until then, it's nothing more than trite nonsense and evidence of brain-washing.

Day-to-day living in the U.S. is quite comfortable. Your accusations are for our major cities. The U.S. is a huge country and there's plenty of cities to get away from the major ones.

Geez. Making it sound like we're scared shitless of our own country. Well we're not. We grew up here and we love it despite all the problems that other people exaggerate and accuse it of affectting our daily-lives.

I'm not saying that all Americans huddle in fear of what goes bump in the night. The majority lives quite comfortable. What I was saying was that not everyone who lives in the US gets to enjoy that same comfort, because of our high poverty and violent crime rate, higher then many other industrial nations.

I find it sad that when someone expresses his love for a country such as the U.S., people go out of their way to assume that it's blind patriotism and that these people know nothing of reality. And these people won't stop until an entire thread agrees with them that the U.S. is a terrible nation.


Not at all, accully. I'm not out to make everyone think my way, and if you'd read the other pages in the debate and not just the last one, you'd realise this.

Actually, every country in the world considers itself to have the right to determine what is and what isn't a valid marriage. That's why in most countries, a church or village marriage isn't considered sufficient. A state-issued marriage license is needed as well.

1) I believe that marrage is none of the government's business

and

2) I'm not talking about things like maditory STD tests or whatever, I'm talking about sexual prefrence, which is none of the gov's business, and goes along with the theocracy thing (note that when I say "theocracy" I am clearly exacdurating, and I mean that a spacific religion, or certian people's interpretations therein of, is having way to much influence on government)

I love America, but I don't disagree with you either. Our government sucks, quite personally, and I doubt very many people will disagree with that. Understand though, it's the government, not the citizens, who commit those hypocritical acts. I love America because it's beautiful and the people are nice, plus we have alot of freedom. Not because we're perfect or our government is grand.

People never elect government officials hoping they will go to war with every weak country they turn against. We elect them hoping they can maintain the peace.

See, this is the kind of intelligent, good post that, though it is not the opinion I hold, I can respect and agree with because I am not, in fact, out to make every single person agree with me.

By the way, thank you for the awesome post :)

Come now...is it not all in the past? This is the 21st century and if we're still acting like it's the 20th century and refusing to forgive and forget then that's just strange.

The reason people get mad about things in the US's past, like Viet Nam and the Contras, which weren't really all that long ago, is because the US has never made any apology for it, nor have they made any indecation that they won't do such a thing again, and indeed, do continue to do such things. It's just like Reletive Powers said.


That out of the way, hell yes, America rocks. All told, we have one of the most free, fairest, perhaps best nations in the world. I was born American by the grace of God and love it. If necessary, I will fight to preserve all the freedoms that she guarantees to the huddled masses.

Accully, we have some of the least civil rights of any developed nations, our media is, world-wide, concidered one of the most conservative informational forums, and we are the *only* developed nation that doesn't garentee health care for all it's people.

Also, our society, more then almost any other developed nation, is highy stritifyed by socio-economic class, which in turn is highly stratified by race.
Even poor Venesuela, with all the problems it's having, garentees health care and a level of education to all it's people. I went to a middle school where kids sat on the floor because there wern't enough chairs, with history texts that ended with "maby one day the Berlin Wall can come down." And that was luxury compaired to some places. I don't even live in a major city. There are schools in Baltimore that don't even have books. At all. There are schools in DC where they need several armed guards patroling the hallways, and kids still get shot snf stabed. How are you supposed to better yourself in that situation? You think those kids are going to college? Get to move to suburbia?

As I have said, the US is a very good place for some to live, but there are alot of people out there who would give anything to get out. We are far from the free-est, or fairest. Best is highly subjective, so I won't even get into trying the debate that based on facts.

GET OVER YOURSELF.

If you go back far enough you can say the same about the Roman empire, the British Empire. Yes American Administrations over the years have a lot to answer for, you could also go out on a limb and say as Presidents are elected directly by the ppl, the American Admins of the past and present are a direct expression of the American ppl-yet it only takes 50% to win-few presidents have surpassed this quota by a vast percentage.
I vehemently oppose the Bush administration, yet I still love America, Most Americans I have met are warm and friendly. I have only been to New York and Boston as handful of times but I throughly enjoyed meeting the people and experiencing their culture.
The world has for centuries been completely messed up, you can't blame an entire population-a government yes. I'm Irish-is it my fault the IRA and Unionist are such scum? No its not. Lay the blame where it belongs.


OK, he has said many many times that he does not blame or hate the American people, and he finds many Americans to be friendly, kind, good people. He is "laying the blame where it belongs."

I'm getting tired of doing this over and over, please, if you wanna debate, read back 5 or so pages so you don't repeate things, and so you don't make mistakes like this.

GET OVER YOURSELF.

If you go back far enough you can say the same about the Roman empire, the British Empire. Yes American Administrations over the years have a lot to answer for, you could also go out on a limb and say as Presidents are elected directly by the ppl, the American Admins of the past and present are a direct expression of the American ppl-yet it only takes 50% to win-few presidents have surpassed this quota by a vast percentage.
I vehemently oppose the Bush administration, yet I still love America, Most Americans I have met are warm and friendly. I have only been to New York and Boston as handful of times but I throughly enjoyed meeting the people and experiencing their culture.
The world has for centuries been completely messed up, you can't blame an entire population-a government yes. I'm Irish-is it my fault the IRA and Unionist are such scum? No its not. Lay the blame where it belongs.

I think that is the entire point,
right here and now in the world.

America is viewed, rightly as the greatest threat to peace.
The rogue nation of rogue nations.
The country that could end up pushing us all back into the
dark ages.

Lay the blame where it belongs
on the nation that has wmd and has demonstrated a willingness
to use them and is currently developing battlefield nukes.
on the nation willing to break international law at the drop of a hat
on the nation now responsible within just the last 3 years for the deaths of over
100, 000 men women and children.
When that nation points out terrorists,
it would be best if it points into a mirror.


As for your vehement opposition to the Bush administration,
well that is fine and dandy
but the majority of your countrymen are in favour of the continued
occupation of Iraq,
Who are these people in favour?

1 - everyone who did vote for bush was in favour
2 - everyone who did vote for kerry was in favour
(ie to paraphrase he was opposed to the reasons, despite having voted in favour but now we're there we'll finish the job in hand)
3 everyone who couldn't be bothered to vote was happy with whatever
happened.

Majority therefore in favour.
And while no guarantee; that indicates theres a good chance you actually fall
into that group too.


Look what people really hate here isn't even that America is taking
on the mantle of evil empire.
It's not even that you keep lying about it and trying to convince
everyone that it really is for world peace or your own security.

It's that you whinge about it and keep wanting everyone else to pitch in.
You don't even want to have to keep doing the dirty work in Iraq, you
want the Iraqis to do it for you.
Perhaps you guys will keep back the stuff you enjoy.
Have the Iraqi army deliver men women and children to you every thursday for torture, it'll be like back home ordering pizza.

And for crying out loud will you guys ever drop the sullen teenage response
that other people have done things just as bad.
It didn't work when you were teenagers talking to your parents or guardians
and nobody is buying it now.
Right now boys and girls the focus is on you,
because right now you are the number one terrorist state.
Put things right and people will praise how fast your fast food is
and how absolutely wonderful you are at keeping the same joke going
for over a decade in a sitcom.
Until then don't expect your nation's behaviour to attract positive comments.
Most of the people who would approve are dead
Hitler , Stalin, et al.

No! America Rocks, Racks 'n' Rolls! (http://www.clintblack.com/songlyrics.html)

YOU CAN WAVE YOUR SIGNS IN PROTEST
AGAINST AMERICA TAKING STANDS
THE STANDS AMERICA'S TAKEN
ARE THE REASON THAT YOU CAN

IF EVERYONE WOULD GO FOR PEACE
THERE'D BE NO NEED FOR WAR
BUT WE CAN'T IGNORE THE DEVIL
HE'LL KEEP COMING BACK FOR MORE

SOME SEE THIS IN BLACK AND WHITE
OTHERS ONLY GRAY
WE'RE NOT BEGGING FOR A FIGHT
NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY

WE HAVE THE RESOLUTION
THAT SHOULD PUT'EM ALL TO SHAME
BUT IT'S A DIFFERENT KIND OF DEADLINE
WHEN I'M CALLED IN THE GAME

CHORUS
I RAQ, I RACK'EM UP AND I ROLL
I'M BACK AND I'M A HIGH TECH GI JOE
I PRAY FOR PEACE, PREPARE FOR WAR
AND I NEVER WILL FORGET
THERE'S NO PRICE TOO HIGH FOR FREEDOM
SO BE CAREFUL WHERE YOU TREAD

THIS TERROR ISN'T MAN TO MAN
THEY CAN BE NO MORE THAN COWARDS
IF THEY WON'T SHOW US THEIR WEAPONS
WE MIGHT HAVE TO SHOW THEM OURS

IT MIGHT BE A SMART BOMB
THEY FIND STUPID PEOPLE TOO
AND IF YOU STAND WITH THE LIKES OF SADDAM
ONE JUST MIGHT FIND YOU

CHORUS II
I ROCK, I RACK'EM UP AND I ROLL
I'M BACK AND I'M A HIGH TECH GI JOE
I'VE GOT INFRARED, I'VE GOT GPS AND I'VE GOT THAT GOOD OLD FASHIONED LEAD
THERE'S NO PRICE TOO HIGH FOR FREEDOM
SO BE CAREFUL WHERE YOU TREAD

BRIDGE
NOW YOU CAN COME ALONG
OR YOU CAN STAY BEHIND
OR YOU CAN GET OUT OF THE WAY
BUT OUR TROOPS TAKE OUT THE GARBAGE
FOR THE GOOD OLD U.S.A.


I ROCK, I RACK'EM UP AND I ROLL
IN THE USA
I ROCK, I RACK'EM UP AND I ROLL
I'M TALKIN' ABOUT THE USA

http://www.clintblack.com/songlyrics.html]No! America Rocks, Racks 'n' Rolls

Depressing tiresome ignorant lyrics to represent
depressing tiresome ignorant citizens of the biggest terrorist nation on the planet.

when the South get's off it's ass and makes some real music, not crap like the above, and Toby Keith, it's damn good. "Country" music is just.....bad

Depressing tiresome ignorant lyrics to represent
depressing tiresome ignorant citizens of the biggest terrorist nation on the planet.

If your so upset with America why not boycott some of the greatest inventions of all time- the light bulb, the internet, and so much more? Yes we may be fighting but we ARE fighting for a cause- how would you feel if two planes hit the twin towers, jepordizing your safety and then realizing that there might be other terrible weapons in those people's power? Would you not want to protect yourself and also try to help the people opressed by that terrible government, in which women weren't granted many rights including that of education?

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and since I assume you have not read the rest of this thread, I can pull out an oldie but goodie:

If you believe that, then you have your head so far up your ass I can't even bitch slap you properly.

1) I believe that marrage is none of the government's business

and

2) I'm not talking about things like maditory STD tests or whatever, I'm talking about sexual prefrence, which is none of the gov's business, and goes along with the theocracy thing (note that when I say "theocracy" I am clearly exacdurating, and I mean that a spacific religion, or certian people's interpretations therein of, is having way to much influence on government)





1) Regardless of what you believe, all governments, both here and abroad, DO consider it their business to determine what is and what isn't a valid marriage.

2) So you admit that government DOES have a right to regulate marriage, but not those aspects of it that YOU think it has no business regulating.

No offense, but what makes you a qualified judge of such things?

Depressing tiresome ignorant lyrics to represent
depressing tiresome ignorant citizens of the biggest terrorist nation on the planet.
More or less, yes.

I'm not saying that I think they have a right to do manditory STD tests, I was saying that that would be a bit more understandable then sexual prefrence. You can'r deny marrage to a whole class of citizens and still call your self one of the free-est nation on earth.

See, this is the kind of intelligent, good post that, though it is not the opinion I hold, I can respect and agree with because I am not, in fact, out to make every single person agree with me.

By the way, thank you for the awesome post :)





It might be a bit more "awesome" had he taken into consideration my previous post, which was:

By "government," do you mean our system of government (Constitution, etc.) or the people currently running the government (which includes the president, cabinet, Congress, Supreme Court, state and local elected and appointed officials, etc.)? Or do you just not like Bush and his crew? There IS a difference, you know. I don't like Bush, but I like our system of government and some of our elected officials, such as my Congressman.

I suppose he'll just have to answer that for himself. I was simply happy that there was balanced post without retoric or insults (which I realise I, too, have been guilty of). Also, it was a example of me not wanting to "convert everyone to my America-hating iseology" ;-)

I'm not saying that I think they have a right to do manditory STD tests, I was saying that that would be a bit more understandable then sexual prefrence. You can'r deny marrage to a whole class of citizens and still call your self one of the free-est nation on earth.

"Freedom" takes on a lot of things. We don't have the "freedom" to murder anyone we want, yet that's a "freedom" most people would agree is best denied us. And let's not forget that one person's freedoms and rights end once they start imposing on the freedoms and rights of others. Now, of course, that position can be taken to an extreme as well, which is WHY we make laws to govern such things.

Complete freedom is anarchy, and while some may espouse anarchy, I think that if they ever got their wish, they'd immediately regret it.

I'm not saying that I think they have a right to do manditory STD tests, I was saying that that would be a bit more understandable then sexual prefrence. You can'r deny marrage to a whole class of citizens and still call your self one of the free-est nation on earth.

Well, in this game you DO run your own country. Make it legal :)

I agree that your rights end when they begin infringing on the rights of others. But, in terms of things that effect you and only you, such as who you marry, should be a freedom that you are not denied.

If your so upset with America why not boycott some of the greatest inventions of all time- the light bulb, the internet, and so much more? Yes we may be fighting but we ARE fighting for a cause- how would you feel if two planes hit the twin towers, jepordizing your safety and then realizing that there might be other terrible weapons in those people's power? Would you not want to protect yourself and also try to help the people opressed by that terrible government, in which women weren't granted many rights including that of education?

In Iraq women did have rights and education.
It was one of the most western style arab countries.
That was why the US supported them when they were warring with Iran.
That and the fact that they had had a 15 year relationship with the USSR
before and your country didn't like the USSR.

Iraq also had absolutely nothing to do with the planes hitting the twin
towers or the pentagon.
For that matter Afghanistan where the Taliban had just about finished
fighting a civil war and where women were very much prevented from
having anything like the rights we would expect women to have,
also had nothing to do with it other than the fact that the person
your country claimed was responsible for the twin towers etc was living
in Afghanistan.
For some strange reason they were opposed to simply handing him over
to you with no evidence presented and without your country even willing
to sit down and discuss the matter with them.
In that they behaved like a proper government.
You wouldn't think much of your own government if they handed people
over to other countries without even a discussion, so it isn't exactly
a cause for war.

Now I never liked the Taliban as I dislike all religions and the more
severe they are the less I like them.
But American intervention has not saved Afghanistan it has simply put it
back to the start of it's civil war, with warlords in positions of power and
no Taliban.
Now you probably think the removal of the Taliban somehow makes it a
better place, but much as I dislike the Taliban, the warlords are worse.
What happens when the warlords are in control is that everything depends
on their whims. There is no fixed law, nothing that people can build on.
So yes, in kabul some women now get education, this is not the case outside
of kabul.
Outside of Kabul women are treated and are expected to behave just as
they did under the Taliban but here is the twist.
They are much more likely to suffer rape now then they were then.

War time makes people harsh,
even more so in a civil war.

The civil war was just about over when America flounced in,
we could have hoped and history is an indication that it wasn't an unreasonable hope that once there was order in the country,
it would have begun to mellow.
Thanks to American actions that country has been flung backwards 20 years.
Thats a whole other generation before Afghanistan can even hope to approach the beginnings of mellowing.
Assuming that some group comes about that isn't just interested in power
for their own sake and assuming that America were to stop messing that
poor country about today.

Of course there was the claim that there were all these terrorist training
camps in Afghanistan, and we saw patches of desert to prove it.
Maybe that is what you would consider justification but pardon me for
thinking your a blind cretin if that was the case.

Now of course you did not go to war with Saudi Arabia,
most of the 9/11 attackers were from that country
and of course Osama Bin Laden is from that country.

And lastly on the 9/11 point,
the people responsible for that horror were of course the terrorists and
whoever directed them.
But just like you don't leave your handbag out in plain view where it
can be snatched and just like you don't leave your keys in the car when
you leave it in the parking lot.
Some blame has to go to the people, who considered it to be too costly
to make it impossible for passengers to gain access to the flight deck.
Planes had been hijacked many times before, without quite such serious
consequences but during Clinton's watch there was this big discussion about
security on planes and making the flight deck inaccessible was one of the
recommendations and if that hadn't been bean counted, 9/11 couldn't have
happened.

And despite it's scale, 9/11 was a crime, not an attack by another country
on yours, and the appropriate response was to deal with it as a crime.
If you had done so, all the world would be supporting you.
When you attacked Afghanistan you lost a little of that support
but only a little because no one liked the Taliban and everyone knew
that the US would have to hurt someone smaller and less powerful than
them to feel better about themselves and being the US you have a lot
of choice.

Having had Afghanistan to get it out of your system,
there were no more gimme's
And you attacked and invaded Iraq and gave your support to a coup in
Venezuela.
Both misfired on you and now you want sympathy, and help.
Well there will be no supply of zyklon b from us so don't expect it.


To deal with the "patriots" one last time.

Yes there are good things and bad things about every country.
Any truly patriotic citizen of any country is proud of the good things
and OPPOSES the bad things.

That is true patriotism.

I have always been curious about what idiots dream of at, wondering what to post in the morning. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

In Iraq women did have rights and education.
It was one of the most western style arab countries.
That was why the US supported them when they were warring with Iran.
That and the fact that they had had a 15 year relationship with the USSR
before and your country didn't like the USSR.

Iraq also had absolutely nothing to do with the planes hitting the twin
towers or the pentagon.
For that matter Afghanistan where the Taliban had just about finished
fighting a civil war and where women were very much prevented from
having anything like the rights we would expect women to have,
also had nothing to do with it other than the fact that the person
your country claimed was responsible for the twin towers etc was living
in Afghanistan.
For some strange reason they were opposed to simply handing him over
to you with no evidence presented and without your country even willing
to sit down and discuss the matter with them.
In that they behaved like a proper government.
You wouldn't think much of your own government if they handed people
over to other countries without even a discussion, so it isn't exactly
a cause for war.

Now I never liked the Taliban as I dislike all religions and the more
severe they are the less I like them.
But American intervention has not saved Afghanistan it has simply put it
back to the start of it's civil war, with warlords in positions of power and
no Taliban.
Now you probably think the removal of the Taliban somehow makes it a
better place, but much as I dislike the Taliban, the warlords are worse.
What happens when the warlords are in control is that everything depends
on their whims. There is no fixed law, nothing that people can build on.
So yes, in kabul some women now get education, this is not the case outside
of kabul.
Outside of Kabul women are treated and are expected to behave just as
they did under the Taliban but here is the twist.
They are much more likely to suffer rape now then they were then.

War time makes people harsh,
even more so in a civil war.

The civil war was just about over when America flounced in,
we could have hoped and history is an indication that it wasn't an unreasonable hope that once there was order in the country,
it would have begun to mellow.
Thanks to American actions that country has been flung backwards 20 years.
Thats a whole other generation before Afghanistan can even hope to approach the beginnings of mellowing.
Assuming that some group comes about that isn't just interested in power
for their own sake and assuming that America were to stop messing that
poor country about today.

Of course there was the claim that there were all these terrorist training
camps in Afghanistan, and we saw patches of desert to prove it.
Maybe that is what you would consider justification but pardon me for
thinking your a blind cretin if that was the case.

Now of course you did not go to war with Saudi Arabia,
most of the 9/11 attackers were from that country
and of course Osama Bin Laden is from that country.

And lastly on the 9/11 point,
the people responsible for that horror were of course the terrorists and
whoever directed them.
But just like you don't leave your handbag out in plain view where it
can be snatched and just like you don't leave your keys in the car when
you leave it in the parking lot.
Some blame has to go to the people, who considered it to be too costly
to make it impossible for passengers to gain access to the flight deck.
Planes had been hijacked many times before, without quite such serious
consequences but during Clinton's watch there was this big discussion about
security on planes and making the flight deck inaccessible was one of the
recommendations and if that hadn't been bean counted, 9/11 couldn't have
happened.

And despite it's scale, 9/11 was a crime, not an attack by another country
on yours, and the appropriate response was to deal with it as a crime.
If you had done so, all the world would be supporting you.
When you attacked Afghanistan you lost a little of that support
but only a little because no one liked the Taliban and everyone knew
that the US would have to hurt someone smaller and less powerful than
them to feel better about themselves and being the US you have a lot
of choice.

Having had Afghanistan to get it out of your system,
there were no more gimme's
And you attacked and invaded Iraq and gave your support to a coup in
Venezuela.
Both misfired on you and now you want sympathy, and help.
Well there will be no supply of zyklon b from us so don't expect it.


To deal with the "patriots" one last time.

Yes there are good things and bad things about every country.
Any truly patriotic citizen of any country is proud of the good things
and OPPOSES the bad things.

That is true patriotism.

If 9/11 is a "crime" then right now we are playing Policeman and bringing justice to the evil doers. 9/11 was an act of war, not a crime. It was commited by a group of despicable coward and terrorists.....

I was just starting to eat my Chilidog and then I saw that little nugget of crap....

I have always been curious about what idiots dream of at, wondering what to post in the morning. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

If you have any doubt what idiots deam of at night, wondering
what to post in the morning.

Just note down what you dreamt of last night.

And btw
just go ahead teaching your kids that heather having 2 mommies is a bad thing.
I'm sure that will make heather's life so much more pleasant.

If 9/11 is a "crime" then right now we are playing Policeman and bringing justice to the evil doers. 9/11 was an act of war, not a crime. It was commited by a group of despicable coward and terrorists.....

I was just starting to eat my Chilidog and then I saw that little nugget of crap....


You should have looked at your chilidog before you swallowed any little nuggets contained in it.

Policemen have to act in accordance to laws.
When you stopped doing that you guys became the despicable cowards
and terrorists on the grand scale and as a nation you have committed
the greatest war crime of all in initiating an aggressive war.

But it seems to me you have swallowed a lot more nuggets of dubious
origin than
may be contained in your chilidog as you cannot grasp the truth of the
situation.

So take your torture supporting murder endorsing little self,
chomp down on that chillidog and eat up all those little nuggets that
your vendor provided you with and that your whitehouse supplies you with.

And if you ever grow up enough to be able to tell the difference between
right and wrong,
mature enough to stand up for the ideals that the US is founded on,
when your government spits on them,
educated enough to have the slightest clue about what is going on,
then you will be an american patriot.
Until then lay back on your sofa, your beer in your left hand and your
boyhood in your other and dream of being a decent human being.

I can never get how people call the 9/11 hijackers cowards, but you push a button to fire a cruise missle 1000 miles away and your a hero. Dipicable, murderous, heinous, wrong, the hijackers were. Cowards, they were not. They knew they would die, and they were willing to give their lives for what they believed was right.

The only cowards are the ones who speak so loudly about the need for war, but do not sign up themselves. Those who make big claimes while hiding in their bomb-proof White House with dozens of armed guards. Those who send others to do their dirty work (on both sides, the Bin Ladens and the Bushes).

The rank n' file, the marines trying to scrape up the money for college, or do right in the world, the Iraqi resistance fighter out to protect his neibhorhood and family, I have the the top respect for. Even though I am vehemently against the invasion, I will thank and respect the troops who have signed up doing what they think is right. Those who kill for pleasure (on both sides), who get their jollies cutting off heads or shotting up cars or beating and killing prisioners, and the leaders who send others to fight for them while reaping the rewards (reaping what they have no sowed), they are the ones who I despise.

And btw
just go ahead teaching your kids that heather having 2 mommies is a bad thing.
I'm sure that will make heather's life so much more pleasant.

Unless you're replying to a previous post of his, I think it's time to keep that appointment at rehab, as the voices in your head seem to taking over.

However, if he had previously said something about gay marriages or some girl named heather with a small "h," my apologies.

I can never get how people call the 9/11 hijackers cowards, but you push a button to fire a cruise missle 1000 miles away and your a hero. Despicable, murderous, heinous, wrong, the hijackers were. Cowards, they were not. They knew they would die, and they were willing to give their lives for what they believed was right.

<snip>.


You want to be careful there,
in the land of the free and the home of the brave you can lose your
job for expressing an opinion like that.
The supporters of the new american empire believe freedom of
speech should be used to agree with them anything else is heresy.

Unless you're replying to a previous post of his, I think it's time to keep that appointment at rehab, as the voices in your head seems to taking over.

However, if he had previously said something about gay marriages or some girl named heather with a small "h," my apologies.


Apologies accepted, you just have to check out previous posts made
and you would see why people like that give the united states a bad name.

You may notice I don't always use caps, sometimes by choice and sometimes
just because it doesn't really matter.

I agree that your rights end when they begin infringing on the rights of others. But, in terms of things that effect you and only you, such as who you marry, should be a freedom that you are not denied.

Is marriage something that affects you and only you? Are not families involved? In India, it's almost unheard of to get married without the parents having arranged it when the couple were children. I'm not advocating arranged marriages, just pointing out that there are more people affected than just the two people getting married, more in some cultures than in others. In this country, the main concern, as I see it, is increased health insurance costs.

Hell ya, America rocks. It's very easy to take pot shots at the big dog in a unipolar system of power distribution in international relations. It becomes quite a bit more confusing when there isn't an obvious target that the little dogs can take out their frustration upon.

Just a thought.

Geoff. :) :cool:

Apologies accepted, you just have to check out previous posts made
and you would see why people like that give the united states a bad name.

.

Really? One person, not even a national leader, can give an entire nation a bad name? I'll have to be more careful as to what I say. ;)

trust me, I've felt the backlash of not going with the majority. People say stuff like "in other countries, you wouldn't be aloud to say stuff like that." True, but in other countries, I wouldn't be threatened, insulted, and people wouldn't try to have me kicked out, as I have had happen to me.

Thats why I like to meet people who you can hev a difference of opinion with without them having some sort of vendetta against you, it's increasingly rare in this world.

Is marriage something that affects you and only you? Are not families involved? In India, it's almost unheard of to get married without the parents having arranged it when the couple were children. I'm not advocating arranged marriages, just pointing out that there are more people affected than just the two people getting married, more in some cultures than in others. In this country, the main concern, as I see it, is increased health insurance costs.

True, but by this logic, all action effect those around you. It effects the families no matter who you marry. Sexual prefrence is none of the government's business, it's not the government's place to tell you you cannot marry someone of the same sex, and you have yet to say anything that refutes that.

I gots to go do some stuffs for now. I'll be back latter. Reletive Power, I trust the front to you untill I return ^_~

You want to be careful there,
in the land of the free and the home of the brave you can lose your
job for expressing an opinion like that.
The supporters of the new american empire believe freedom of
speech should be used to agree with them anything else is heresy.

Name a company, just one if you can, that would fire you for expressing the opinion of the poster. Maybe some governmental agencies like the CIA would look upon you with suspicion, but I was in the Air Force during the Vietnam War and was openly antiwar. Guess what? Never got arrested, not even by Nixon's xenophobic regime. I was even honorably discharged at the end of my term. Are you from the U.S.? If not, don't try spreading as fact things you don't know.

True, but by this logic, all action effect those around you. It effects the families no matter who you marry. Sexual prefrence is none of the government's business, it's not the government's place to tell you you cannot marry someone of the same sex, and you have yet to say anything that refutes that.

My point is that marriage IS within the government's domain (not just our government but ALL governments) to regulate marriage, and to put any restrictions on it that they see fit. Your position seems to be that that may be the case, except in areas in which you personally disagree. And you have yet to say anything that refutes THAT!

American people use 1/3 of the worlds energy supply. They eat 10 football pitches (proper english footie not the american shite that stops every 20 seconds) full of pizza EVERY DAY. Americans are so unawhere of the rest of the world. George Bush never reads the nespapers and never watches the television for news. Oh yea sorry he does for American fooball (sorry i had to spell it wrong i didn't want it to insult proper football). Thats me done now i shall show a diagram on the left the US on the right good old terroists.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper:

trust me, I've felt the backlash of not going with the majority. People say stuff like "in other countries, you wouldn't be aloud to say stuff like that." True, but in other countries, I wouldn't be threatened, insulted, and people wouldn't try to have me kicked out, as I have had happen to me.

Thats why I like to meet people who you can hev a difference of opinion with without them having some sort of vendetta against you, it's increasingly rare in this world.

Oh, don't be such a martyr. Insulting is part of free speech. Threatening is not. If you feel threatened for expressing your beliefs, report it to the police. And who's trying to "kick you out?" If you're a citizen, there's no place to kick you into, so you can't get kicked out. So far as other countries go, try espousing equality for women in Saudi Arabia and see if there's a difference in what kinds of speech is tolerated there as opposed to here.

"Personal vendetta?" Sorry to break it to ya, honey, but it's not all about you. You have a perfect right to express your opinions, and I'll back you up all the way on that one. It's part of being an American.

Name a company, just one if you can, that would fire you for expressing the opinion of the poster. Maybe some governmental agencies like the CIA would look upon you with suspicion, but I was in the Air Force during the Vietnam War and was openly antiwar. Guess what? Never got arrested, not even by Nixon's xenophobic regime. I was even honorably discharged at the end of my term. Are you from the U.S.? If not, don't try spreading as fact things you don't know.

The company ABC
the person who lost his job Bill Maher (host of politically incorrect)

I applaud your stance on the vietnam war,
of course I am hoping that being antiwar you didn't actually participate in it.

I am not from the U.S. but I do resent that you would
lump me in with your president and his administration as I never knowingly
spread as fact anything that is incorrect and I never simply make claims
which may be true without doing some checking to see if I might be mistaken.

edited to add
I also have never been responsible for the death of one person never
mind tens of thousands, I've never been responsible for someone being
tortured and in anyway that I can, I oppose those who are.
You might do better to direct your challenges to those people and
those who support them.

Oh, don't be such a martyr. Insulting is part of free speech. Threatening is not. If you feel threatened for expressing your beliefs, report it to the police. And who's trying to "kick you out?" If you're a citizen, there's no place to kick you into, so you can't get kicked out. So far as other countries go, try espousing equality for women in Saudi Arabia and see if there's a difference in what kinds of speech is tolerated there as opposed to here.

"Personal vendetta?" Sorry to break it to ya, honey, but it's not all about you. You have a perfect right to express your opinions, and I'll back you up all the way on that one. It's part of being an American.

I'm not trying to be a martyr. I have been threatened a few times, but I didn't feel the police were nessicary, because 1) I didn't think the guys would accully do anything and 2) I was confident in my opinion to defend my self.

People have tryed to get me kicked out of school for my opinions. I am sorry if it came off like I was getting kicked out of the country, which would be dumb, as you pointed out.


As for the marrage thing, I did not conceed that it is the government's business. I believe the government has no place in marrage, beyond protecting it's people (abusive spouce, 18 to enter into marrage, et cetera)

<snip> try espousing equality for women in Saudi Arabia and see if there's a difference in what kinds of speech is tolerated there as opposed to here.<snip>


Interesting to pick a country that the US supports as an example of
a country where freedom of speech is not upheld.

Of course it is not a democracy either.

But it sure does have a lot of oil and a government beholding to the US.

Does anyone agree with me?

Does anyone agree with me?

That you consider some serious issues less important than whether
american football should be called fooball because
you don't like it.


I kinda doubt it.

Plus those stupid smilies are just annoying

how big of an idiot must you be? :headbang:

ok so the us has made some mistakes,
sure america may rush into millitary action but at least they do something! :mad:

with out america dictators and hostile leaders would have taken over, with out america your country might not exsist :upyours:

whether america was helping a less powerful country, lending a hand, or simply protecting itself or its belif america has always been there :p

so before you trash america why dont you look at your own countrys history, maybe you could learn a thing or two! :rolleyes:

how big of an idiot must you be? :headbang:
<clip>

so before you trash america why dont you look at your own countrys history, maybe you could learn a thing or two! :rolleyes:

again another with the annoying smilies
followed with no indication of who you are replying to.
finishing up with a lot of meaningless junk without citing any examples.

Should Bowspit and Brotchen compete to find out who can act the
most stupid or should they combine together to act more stupid
than we can possibly imagine.
Find out in next weeks episode of ...
When ignorance attacks

whether america was helping a less powerful country, lending a hand, or simply protecting itself or its belif america has always been there :p

so before you trash america why dont you look at your own countrys history, maybe you could learn a thing or two! :rolleyes:

If you had read ANYTHING BUT THE LAST PAGE (this is getting really annoying) you would realise that it's been widly acknowedged that the US does not only act in the three examples you gave, but many times acts out of pure selfishness, and does some realy bad things.

Also, as I have said many times, better by comparison does not mean better. Maby you should take your own advice and learn a thing or two about American history. You probably think the only US military actions since WWII have been Viet Nam, Korea, Bosnia, and Iraq twice.

ok relitive power, how about instead of being a one sided anti-amierican u acctually argue the issue instead of insulting me or are you afraid that would uncover your pathetic self, im not here to say americas perfect, gusse what no country is and where are you all from? are you afraid your country will be insulted? you are cowards, not for exspressing your belief, oh no that is a brave act but for your ignorent insualts and the fact you have nothing better to do than insult us, you are the worst kind of nationalists, the ones who only care to insult the bigger country or whoever is in the news, and look at the original posting list, most were cited in war times, which is a rediculous arguement becasue ever country commits so many war crimes

<snip>

Read through the preceding pages and you will see I have already
argued the issue, you incoherent jackass.

Read through the preceding pages and you will see I have already
argued the issue, you incoherent jackass.

^incoherent jackass eh? well theres the insults again ha you want free speach but i say my opinion and suddenly you snap back, whos the incoherent jackass now? oh i belive that must be you

1890, December 29- US troops massacre 200-300 Sioux Dakotan Indians at Wounded Knee, South Dakota. Since 1608, tens of millions of Native Americans and African people who had been taken from their families to be slaves in the US have been killed.

Wounded Knee was on my birthday? KICK ASS!!!! :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper:

ok relitive power, how about instead of being a one sided anti-amierican u acctually argue the issue instead of insulting me or are you afraid that would uncover your pathetic self, im not here to say americas perfect, gusse what no country is and where are you all from? are you afraid your country will be insulted? you are cowards, not for exspressing your belief, oh no that is a brave act but for your ignorent insualts and the fact you have nothing better to do than insult us, you are the worst kind of nationalists, the ones who only care to insult the bigger country or whoever is in the news, and look at the original posting list, most were cited in war times, which is a rediculous arguement becasue ever country commits so many war crimes

I live right here in the United States. There goes that argument.

"Other people do it" is not an excuse. If I walk into a 1st grade classroom and slit the first little kid's throat I see, and get dragged into court and say "that is rediculous, thousands of people have killed 6 year olds, you can'r singe me out like this!" I'll get the book thrown at me, and rightly so.

What evedince do you have that I "insult whoever is on the news" and "have nothing better to do" then insult you?

Seriously, if you wanna dabate, do it properly, by quoting something someone has said, then refuting it with facts and logic, instead of just screaming your ideology at the top of your lungs.

Also, as I have said many times, better by comparison does not mean better.
Actually, better by comparison, is better. Maybe not real good, but better. Like every imperial power, the US has done terrible things, but its better than any of its predecessors. And every nation that has had the opportunity, has become imperialist. Greed being universal and all... :(

^incoherent jackass eh? well theres the insults again ha you want free speach but i say my opinion and suddenly you snap back, whos the incoherent jackass now? oh i belive that must be you

Oh you have every right to speak or type or in any other way
disseminate your opinion.
There is nothing in a belief in freedom of speech to say that anyone
has to have anything other than contempt for it.
Especially when it is an expression of complete and utter ignorance.

I have previously argued the points, if you take issue with my previous
arguments, quote them and then back up your own argument.

My incoherent jackass comment still stands and still refers to
you and that other fool Brotchen.

Ok let me be honest i just came to post a simple thing, after you insulted me a was a bit irritated so i stayed on a bit longer, see i have things to do today but now im staying for a bit i supose, im a proud american but not so proud as some on here and i wont go as far to to boast all of it, but i have a question, if all you in the US who dislike it so, why dont you leave? im tierd of hearing "i hate it here, it sucks" which leaves me to wounder why they dont? you wonder why there are so many imigrents here? people want to be here! America isnt the best but god damm its good enough for me, it can be improved and we americans will work on that, but hell look at alot of the countrys out there, its a damm good option

Actually, better by comparison, is better. Maybe not real good, but better. Like every imperial power, the US has done terrible things, but its better than any of its predecessors. And every nation that has had the opportunity, has become imperialist. Greed being universal and all... :(

sorry, I ment better by comparison does not mean good. Typo on my part.

And I disupute the claim that the US was better then any of it's predecessors. The US killed and tortured, and continues to do so, as surely as any other imperialist power. Only difference is colonialism has been replaces with economic imperialism.

Actually, better by comparison, is better. Maybe not real good, but better. Like every imperial power, the US has done terrible things, but its better than any of its predecessors. And every nation that has had the opportunity, has become imperialist. Greed being universal and all... :(

Better by comparison is as you state indeed better.
But unfortunately only to the extent of standing on the first rung of a ladder
in a 20 foot high septic tank.

Unfortunately the US has written down and signed up to a great many
things that say exactly what is and isn't acceptable.
They have done that as a democratic country and so are bound to keep to
to them.

We aren't talking about religion here where you can commit a sin by a single
slip or a careless thought or deed .
We are talking about situations where with great effort and expense
the united states has gone against its own principles and those of
all other democratic nations
and in doing so have brought death and destruction and misery
to countless or at least uncounted men women and children.

ok relitive power, how about instead of being a one sided anti-amierican u acctually argue the issue instead of insulting me or are you afraid that would uncover your pathetic self, im not here to say americas perfect, gusse what no country is and where are you all from? are you afraid your country will be insulted? you are cowards, not for exspressing your belief, oh no that is a brave act but for your ignorent insualts and the fact you have nothing better to do than insult us, you are the worst kind of nationalists, the ones who only care to insult the bigger country or whoever is in the news, and look at the original posting list, most were cited in war times, which is a rediculous arguement becasue ever country commits so many war crimes

My, my, my. How old are you??? 7?

Ok let me be honest i just came to post a simple thing, after you insulted me a was a bit irritated so i stayed on a bit longer, see i have things to do today but now im staying for a bit i supose, im a proud american but not so proud as some on here and i wont go as far to to boast all of it, but i have a question, if all you in the US who dislike it so, why dont you leave? im tierd of hearing "i hate it here, it sucks" which leaves me to wounder why they dont? you wonder why there are so many imigrents here? people want to be here! America isnt the best but god damm its good enough for me, it can be improved and we americans will work on that, but hell look at alot of the countrys out there, its a damm good option

This, I have also answered before, but here goes:

1) indeed, many people have a comfortable life here. Many do not, but many do. But, US prosperity is built on economic imperialism, on taking advantage of other nations. People live in fear and poverty in South America so that people in the US don't have to. Also, it's not that it is so bad to live here, it's that the government does imoral and criminal things that most people who complain complain about.

2) please refrain from using the phrase "God damn" in the future, if you don't mind.

3) reasons why I personally don't leave:

a) my whole family is right here, and I don't want to leave them
b) I speak no forgien languages
c) I would rather stay, accentuate the good, change the bad, and help those in need. Is that not better then running away to an easy life surrounded with like-minded people somewhere in Europe?

<snip> you wonder why there are so many imigrents here? people want to be here! America isnt the best but god damm its good enough for me, it can be improved and we americans will work on that, but hell look at alot of the countrys out there, its a damm good option

Second point first.
It can be improved, so stop arguing back that you've done some good
things and that no-one has a right to criticize when you commit international
war crimes, just make it be what it purports to be.
A beacon of democracy and freedom that can be admired by the people
of the world.


First point second
Why so many immigrants, well you know there are lots of reasons,
but I'd put money on one possible reason being that if they move
to the United States then they are probably in one of the few
places on Earth where they aren't too likely to be blown up or shot by
the U.S.

Ok let me be honest i just came to post a simple thing, after you insulted me a was a bit irritated so i stayed on a bit longer, see i have things to do today but now im staying for a bit i supose, im a proud american but not so proud as some on here and i wont go as far to to boast all of it, but i have a question, if all you in the US who dislike it so, why dont you leave? im tierd of hearing "i hate it here, it sucks" which leaves me to wounder why they dont? you wonder why there are so many imigrents here? people want to be here! America isnt the best but god damm its good enough for me, it can be improved and we americans will work on that, but hell look at alot of the countrys out there, its a damm good option

Did you even read the first 23 pages of this thread?? I was just wondering...

Interesting to pick a country that the US supports as an example of
a country where freedom of speech is not upheld.

Of course it is not a democracy either.

But it sure does have a lot of oil and a government beholding to the US.

I never said that I personally supported Saudi Arabia. Yes, the past several U.S. administrations have supported Saudi Arabia, not because it's a democracy, but because it has one of the few stable regimes in the area, and, yes, a lot of oil. Seeing as how dependent upon oil we are in this country, it would be foolish not to be on good terms with the countries that have it. Do you know of any countries that are so opposed to the regime in Saudi Arabia that they refuse to trade with it? If so, name one. How about your country, for example? By the way, what IS your country?

Second point first.
It can be improved, so stop arguing back that you've done some good
things and that no-one has a right to criticize when you commit international
war crimes, just make it be what it purports to be.
A beacon of democracy and freedom that can be admired by the people
of the world.


First point second
Why so many immigrants, well you know there are lots of reasons,
but I'd put money on one possible reason being that if they move
to the United States then they are probably in one of the few
places on Earth where they aren't too likely to be blown up or shot by
the U.S.

"claps"

Quote by Dick Morris
"Don't lose faith in America. For when you lose faith in America, your own country, you are undermining the only really consistent force of good in the world."

Why so many immigrants, well you know there are lots of reasons, but I'd put money on one possible reason being that if they move to the United States then they are probably in one of the few
places on Earth where they aren't too likely to be blown up or shot by
the U.S.

Probably not the US, but some US back and armed government or group, or the Coke corperation.

I know a guy, Wilbert, who worked with my dad in his small construction company (4 employies, my dad, my mom, me, part time, and Wilbert) for about 20 years. He fled El Salvador after a government death squad killed his father right on their front lawn when he was 12. The same government the US was backing, defending, and arming at the time. So, as you can see, I can put a face to US imperialism victims.

The company ABC
the person who lost his job Bill Maher (host of politically incorrect)

.

Broadcasting is about viewers. If what Maher said offended enough viewers to where they were no longer tuning in and watching his show and (more important) his show's sponsor's commercials, ABC was right to fire him. It had NOTHING TO DO with the government nor his views on the government.

So far as most jobs go, you really shouldn't be espousing political viewpoints regularly on the job. Your employer expects you to work. However, outside of the job, I don't know of any company that would fire an employee because of his or her political viewpoints. For one thing, they'd be opening themselves up to lawsuits. If this country indeed has a fault, it is that it's the most litigious country I know of.

i must say relitve i underestimated you you strike up a good point or two but of course you cant change my mind, and i cant change yours, so why are we all on this rediculous board?

by the way dont request i change my language if you intend to use offensive vocabulary toward myself

respectfully,
-C

Quote by Dick Morris
"Don't lose faith in America. For when you lose faith in America, your own country, you are undermining the only really consistent force of good in the world."

That makes absolutly no sence.

Quote by Dick Morris
"Don't lose faith in America. For when you lose faith in America, your own country, you are undermining the only really consistent force of good in the world."

It certainly uses force consistently
but not generally for good.

What is faith in America, is it faith in whatever the government does
or is it faith in the underlying principles where
Democracy
Freedom of Speech
Rule of Law
Seperation of Church from State
are the bedrock.

It would seem to me that if Americans had genuine faith in America
they would stick by the underlying principles and oppose anyone who
tried to undermine them or take them away.

Whereas the faith that the bulk of Americans seem to go with
is that a government that has lied to them consistently,
has been proven to be lying to them
should be supported as it does away with the essential freedoms and
concepts that are what make the US something its citizens should be proud of.

George Bush is a Sodomite and a reptilian face-changer. He also made 9/11 happen by sodomizing the twin towers till they fell. He deserves to die.

Did you even read the first 23 pages of this thread?? I was just wondering...

Most of us don't have that much time to waste, or, if we do, at least not the inclination to waste it that way. :cool:

by the way dont request i change my language if you intend to use offensive vocabulary toward myself

respectfully,
-C

You are right, of course, I should not be using such language towards you, and for that I apologize.

It was not that is was directed at me, or offence language in general I asked you to change, it was the phrase "God damn" that I found offensive.

of course i have read more than the last page, ive got a bit more exspirence than to jump into a thread without knowing some about it, true i havent read every post but then again a doubt the majority of people here have

People have tryed to get me kicked out of school for my opinions. I am sorry if it came off like I was getting kicked out of the country, which would be dumb, as you pointed out.


As for the marrage thing, I did not conceed that it is the government's business. I believe the government has no place in marrage, beyond protecting it's people (abusive spouce, 18 to enter into marrage, et cetera)

1) "Kicked out of school." Oh. Unless you're talking about college or some kind of post-secondary school, you're a minor (most likely). I hate to tell you, but minors just don't have all of the rights that adults have, although they have a lot more now than they did even when I was a kid.

2.) "18 to enter into [marriage]." You just conceded that the government has a right to set parameters for marriage. :)

Most of us don't have that much time to waste, or, if we do, at least not the inclination to waste it that way. :cool:


Then what on earth are you doing here? go out, wave with your american flag and call people you don't like commies.

::raises hand:: o! o!! I did!

Of course, I only had like 8 pages (I think, could have been more or less) to go through, not 25. It's hard to come into a long running debate. That's why I suggest folk go back 5 (more or less) pages or so to get caught up, at least.

You are right, of course, I should not be using such language towards you, and for that I apologize.

It was not that is was directed at me, or offence language in general I asked you to change, it was the phrase "God damn" that I found offensive.

thank you, that is alot more than i honestly exspected from you and i apriciate the bit of respect you have given me and i understand how i offended you and will try and keep it mutural best i can

Broadcasting is about viewers. If what Maher said offended enough viewers to where they were no longer tuning in and watching his show and (more important) his show's sponsor's commercials, ABC was right to fire him. It had NOTHING TO DO with the government nor his views on the government.



Ah so no government censorship on freedom of speech but
corporate censorship okay for a program which is supposed to
annoy and antagonise.

Ward Churchill was forced to resign as chairman of the Ethnic Studies department at the University of Colorado
although as he has tenure they have so far as I know failed to get him out
of his professorship there.
That doesn't mean they haven't tried though and what I find incredible
in a country that states it values freedom of speech is that people
can try without losing all respect and status in the eyes of their
countrymen.

And of course in a situation that would be hilarious if it weren't so sad
Churchill was invited to speak at Hamilton College as a member of a panel during a debate entitled "Limits of Dissent".
Bill O'Reilly initiated a campaign against Churchill, getting his
viewers to e-mail the college to cancel Churchill's invitation.
Apparently about 6000 emails were received, to me thats
6000 anti-americans plus of course Mr O'Reilly himself.

The event was cancelled by the college president due to what were
described as "credible threats of violence"

I guess that tells us something about the limits of dissent in the US

Then what on earth are you doing here? go out, wave with your american flag and call people you don't like commies.

wow what an amazing about of hipocracy....ha no offence its quite ammusing acctually

wow what an amazing about of hipocracy....ha no offence its quite ammusing acctually

It was suppose to be amusing:) I mean, posts like that don't deserve serious replies and I am in the mood tonight he he

1) "Kicked out of school." Oh. Unless you're talking about college or some kind of post-secondary school, you're a minor (most likely). I hate to tell you, but minors just don't have all of the rights that adults have, although they have a lot more now than they did even when I was a kid.

I am 18, and was 18 when it happened, near the end of my senior year. I realise that minors have less rights, and that you have less rights in school, as to protect the learning environment, but all my comments were made within the frame of classroom debates, or were in t-shirt form. A group of kids who did not like what I had to say got together and got their parents to go with them to the pricnciple to try to get me suspended. Also, a group of other students tryed to get the teacher to make me remove a shirt they found offensive, and flung insults and threats at me untill the teacher told everyone to sit down and shut up just to restore order.

The school was pretty reasonable about the whole thing, and sent the angry students and parents home, and the teacher did not make me remove my t-shirt (although he asked me to put my coat on and button it up. I put it on, because I was in the process of putting it on when someone said something, but I did not button it up, because as my seat was, those offended couldn't see my shirt, and I wasn't about to cencor my self), so this isn't about how the US is such an unfair place, it is about how certain people react to a different opinion.


2.) "18 to enter into [marriage]." You just conceded that the government has a right to set parameters for marriage. :)

Minimal parameters, seeing as you have to be 18 to enter into any contract, which marrage is, and, as you pointed out, minors do not have the same rights.

Would you support the gov's right to outlaw interracial marrage? If not, then obviously the government does not have total control to set parameters and conditions.

I never said that I personally supported Saudi Arabia. Yes, the past several U.S. administrations have supported Saudi Arabia, not because it's a democracy, but because it has one of the few stable regimes in the area, and, yes, a lot of oil. Seeing as how dependent upon oil we are in this country, it would be foolish not to be on good terms with the countries that have it. Do you know of any countries that are so opposed to the regime in Saudi Arabia that they refuse to trade with it? If so, name one. How about your country, for example? By the way, what IS your country?

Well I never actually implied that you personally supported Saudi Arabia.
I just found it interesting that in casting about for an example you
came up with the birthplace of the 9/11 bombers that isn't known for
its democratic tendencies and whose regime exists because it is supported
by the US.
The US also used to back Iraq for much the same reasons you have given
for US backing of Saudi Arabia.
I would point out that trading with a country isn't quite the same as
providing aid and propping up the regime.
As all the world is running on oil based economies then it is unlikely that
anyone would choose not to trade with them.

When my country is involved directly in aggressive war it being mentioned
will be relevant and I will name it immediately.

BUT this thread is all about whether america rocks or not.

I think I've quite clearly come down on the NOT side
with the proviso that it very much could
if there were enough real patriots and fewer americans who seem
to hold nothing but contempt for the ideals of their own country.

[QUOTE=Hoos Bandoland]. Seeing as how dependent upon oil we are in this country, it would be foolish not to be on good terms with the countries that have it. QUOTE]


Ok I shouldn't do this but I cannot resist.

It would be foolish not to be on good terms with countries that have it.

Just paying for the oil is usually enough to be on good terms.
Propping up a monarchy is a slightly different matter.

But on the basis of your argument, why is the united states so keen
to be on bad terms with the venezuelans?

The sheer brazenness of your administration
when the coup occured, the US was the first
and only country to recognize the coup leaders as the proper
government of that country within the 72 hour period it took to reverse
the situation and reinstate the elected president.

The self same coup leaders suspended the constitution too,
the same constitution which was immediately reinstated when the president was returned to power that the same people then tried to use to remove
the elected president - using a mechanism he had ensured
would be in it and in a vote they failed.
The same coup leaders who own most of the television stations in the country, which are all still in operation and still broadcasting their anti chavez
propaganda.

It seems that Chavez understands more about democracy and freedom
of speech than your administration, and both houses.

Woo hoo. Another America sucks thread. Oh well. To answer your question yes it does. After all, we made Coca-Cola.

That's also a nice little list you put together there, but you could do it with any country. No nation is w/o its skeletons, some are just focused on more than others.

Then what on earth are you doing here? .

Slow work day. :D

"go out, wave with your american flag and call people you don't like commies"

That's an after-work activity, but if you like, I can call you a commie right now. :p

once again, the stupid "other people do it too!" argument. Not even worth responce anymore, as I have had to refute it on the past few pages already.

Also, Coke hires militants to murder union leaders in south america

www.cokewatch.org

www.soawatch.org

www.humanrightswatch.org

and a whole host of others.

Also, the American Steelworkers Union and the AFL have filed suit against Coke on behalf of the South American bottleing plant workers being kept in line through terror.

"I would point out that trading with a country isn't quite the same as
providing aid and propping up the regime."

But without a stable regime, would they sell us oil? What if the 9/11 terrorists ran the country?

"As all the world is running on oil based economies then it is unlikely that
anyone would choose not to trade with them."

We're in agreement. :)

"When my country is involved directly in aggressive war it being mentioned
will be relevant and I will name it immediately."

How do I know if your country is involved in an agressive war if I don't know what it is? And your country is .... ?? Are you ashamed of it??

"BUT this thread is all about whether america rocks or not."

Well, there's no doubt that it does. After all, we're the envy of the world, which also makes us a convenient scapegoat.

I disagree. I believe that we've raised some pretty substatial doubt

[
But on the basis of your argument, why is the united states so keen
to be on bad terms with the venezuelans?


I didn't know that we were on bad terms with Venezuela. I'm sorry to hear that. My father used to work in the Venezuelan oilfields. It's a nice country, by all accounts.

how do i post a new thread???

how do i post a new thread???

I've been wondering that myself. So far, I'm limited to posting on threads other people have started. :confused:

In response to Hoos Bandoland

But without a stable regime, would they sell us oil?
If you paid for it then more than likely

What if the 9/11 terrorists ran the country?
Well if you hadn't created them then they wouldn't exist
but if you mean what would you do if one country wouldn't sell you oil
well I guess you'd buy it from another country then.

Your getting oil right now from Iraq and that is by no means stable.
Iran is a stable regime that you don't like and which doesn't like you
and probably wouldn't exist if you hadn't overthrown a previous
stable regime to install a dictator which then got overthrown
by the current lot.

"As all the world is running on oil based economies then it is unlikely that
anyone would choose not to trade with them."

We're in agreement. :) That all countries that need to, buy oil


And your country is .... ?? not relevant to the current discussion

"BUT this thread is all about whether america rocks or not."

Well, there's no doubt it does. We're the envy of the world, which also makes us a convenient scapegoat.

A scapegoat is something that has nothing to do with anything but is
placed out there to attract the big game.

If you are claiming that America is some little innocent that keeps itself
to itself and has never committed any kind of criminal act in the last
40 yrs or even in the last 4 that just might make it a target of criticism then
are you sure you are an american?
Its that big place between canada and mexico, the one that has
killed over 100,000 people in other countries in the last 4 years.

The one that has been torturing people in other countries.
The one that is holding people without charge or trial or any real status
on another country's land so they can claim that American law doesn't apply.

The one that kidnaps people and takes them to countries where torture
is committed more openly and observes.

The one whose administration lied to its people to make them think
that Iraq could possibly be a threat to them.



For those of you who believe I am anti - american because I criticize and
alternately ask and demand that you take some responsibility
and by doing so make your country be
what it is constantly proclaimed to be.
The very finest example of liberty and democracy
grounded on a firm belief in the rule of law,
people's rights regardless
and freedom of speech.

I offer you the other definition of anti-american
someone who seeks to undermine or destroy those ideals that form the
foundations of your democracy.

And to me that makes all the flag waving, war supporting , torture
excusing, freedom of speech hating, murderous
so called patriots as anti american as it is possible to get.

I've been wondering that myself. So far, I'm limited to posting on threads other people have started. :confused:


At the top of the screen where you see
jolt.co.uk public forums > Massive Multiplayer Online Games > NationStates > Anything & Everything > General

click on general then new post
then start your thread

Hell ya, America rocks. It's very easy to take pot shots at the big dog in a unipolar system of power distribution in international relations. It becomes quite a bit more confusing when there isn't an obvious target that the little dogs can take out their frustration upon.

Just a thought.

Geoff. :) :cool:


Probably my favourite argument.

Heck we're big, we're powerful and we have and continue to commit all kind
of crimes.
We're such an easy target for criticism you should be ashamed
of yourselves.
Unless you are big enough to wipe us out your opinion doesn't matter anyway as we have absolutely no wish or intention to hold ourselves to any common standards of decency. Heck we deserve your support.
People don't just torture themselves you know.
Well they can but only in an existential sense and that doesn't suit our purposes.

America may not exactly be the beacon of truth and justice it claims to be, but it is not the root of all evil as some would claim, that, I am afraid, lies with human nature.

Yes America has done some terrible things, but so has nearly all nations, ideals and religions in their time. That said, we should all know about these things, and try to make sure they never happen again. So enough with the "Go Away America haters!!!!" and "America will kill us all!!!", we need to stop casting blame, and start repairing the damage we all have had a part in.

America may not exactly be the beacon of truth and justice it claims to be, but it is not the root of all evil as some would claim, that, I am afraid, lies with human nature.

Yes America has done some terrible things, but so has nearly all nations, ideals and religions in their time. That said, we should all know about these things, and try to make sure they never happen again. So enough with the "Go Away America haters!!!!" and "America will kill us all!!!", we need to stop casting blame, and start repairing the damage we all have had a part in.


Oh for the love of mike.
How many seconds after a terrible crime do you think its okay to draw the line
under it and say
well it's all in the past isn't it and sure there's a lot of other countries
have done things too.

Until american citizens start taking some responsibility, the hatred and
fear engendered by their governments actions will continue to grow
and neither the world nor the US will become a safer place.

The focus is on the US despite them not being the only country involved
in the despicably misnamed "war on terror" as the US is the prime agent
in it.

"Communism" as practiced by Maoist China and Stalinist Russia had precisely the same problem as capitalism: the undemocratic control of central societal institutions. This kind of organization results in oppression and death, because it puts the interests of the few before the interests of the many.

The global economic order set up by the ruling powers is built along similar lines, with similar results.

On the contrary... within atleast with the case of china.. it is the very fact that the needs of the many over the few have resulted in so many infringments of civil and human rights. Minorities are oppressed and violence is used because the many precieve them as a threat... Are you advocating a system which does not address the needs of the minorities ?

Oh for the love of mike.
How many seconds after a terrible crime do you think its okay to draw the line
under it and say
well it's all in the past isn't it and sure there's a lot of other countries
have done things too.

Until american citizens start taking some responsibility, the hatred and
fear engendered by their governments actions will continue to grow
and neither the world nor the US will become a safer place.

The focus is on the US despite them not being the only country involved
in the despicably misnamed "war on terror" as the US is the prime agent
in it.

Im just wondering what you think it is american citizens should be taking responisibility for. Our almost astonishinly sole support of Israel? Our defending Saudi Arabia after Iraq's invasion of Qwait (primary reason why Osama binladin opposes america) ? Destroying the Taliban who was harboring world terrorists ? Taking down Sadam who at his peak killed more of his own people in 1 year then Iraqis have died in war over the past 4 ?

Perhaps our dealing with Kosovo when the EU and Nato could not... and our actions with Rwanda and our work in Dal-fur.

No america is not perfect.. and neither is any other country in the world. This does not validate whatever misdeeds are done.. but that is also not to say all misdeeds are done with malintentions. If america acted as so many of those EU nations (staying out of international affairs).. thousands more in Kosov would be dead, Israel today might well not exists, Sadam would still be in power, and Sudan would continue (as the UN has said) to be thought of as something other then pure genocide.

Also, many ditators and violent regimes who are in power now would not be. It goes both ways, and the bad the US does is not always the results of "good intentions"

Nice list of one-sided anti-American propaganist bullshit. Some of the claims are justified, some are heavily spun to make America look bad. For example, April 7 2004 US destroys a mosque. Please don't bother to mention that enemy troops were fighting from the mosque. That destroys your argument. If it's used as a military site then it's no longer given the protection accorded to a religious site. If you say where you come from, given some time and research we could probably do a similar hatchet job on your nation.


i aint gonna repost that giant ridiculous list of american atrocities,as the above poster so eloquently pointed out is bs,however,i will admit i once stepped on an ant hill during a little leaque game when i was 10,so i guess this ugly american goes on the list.can i get my unicef/united way/redcross donations back please...seeing as i am a warmongering ,baby killing,dolt that wantonly wipes out whole nations of ants,b4 i could even drive no less. :headbang:

we don't need this kind of idiocy here. With these kinds of comments, you are trivialising the deaths of millions of human beings. Don't be such a jackass.

Plus, can you accully disprove the list? Or can you just resort to using the word "bs" and not back up your assertations with fact?

In Response to Invidentias
Im just wondering what you think it is american citizens should be taking responisibility for. Our almost astonishinly sole support of Israel?

Well that would be one of the first things and the main reason why
so many people in the middle east feel bitterly towards you.
Your complete and utter support for Israel regardless of UN votes,
UN courts, Israels posession of WMD and their ongoing repression
of the Palestinians, with so many stories of what they have done and
continue to do that I cannot even begin to list them here.

Of course not quite so many UN security council resolutions against
Israel's actions, because you veto them.


Our defending Saudi Arabia after Iraq's invasion of Qwait (primary reason why Osama binladin opposes america) ?

Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein had about as much respect
for each other as I do for you. Saddam tried to make it a muslim issue
but it was hard for the others to buy when he had invaded Kuwait.
Also there was no indication as such that Saddam was intending to
attack Saudi, he might have but you did not go to war for that
you went to war to remove him from Kuwait.


Destroying the Taliban who was harboring world terrorists ?
Unproven allegations made by you lot,
considering the truthful quality of other claims relating to the middle
east in the last four years you cannot really expect anyone to take
that too seriously.
I have made a fairly long post in relation to Afghanistan earlier, I suggest you read it.


Taking down Sadam who at his peak killed more of his own people in 1 year then Iraqis have died in war over the past 4 ?
You will really need to back that up,
the highest figures I've heard of him killing Iraqi people was appx 150,000
to 200,000, the figure is supposed to be over his entire time as leader
which was obviously a lot more than one year
the figures don't have too much to to backthem up but may well be true.

It is estimated that the Iraq-Iran War caused the deaths of 400,000 deaths and around 750,000 seriously injured. This is a combined total
between Iraqis and Iranians, Iraq claimed it lost 500,000
and Iran claimed approximately 300,000.

Your lot are estimated to have brought about the deaths of approximately
60 to 80 thousand Iraqis during your war and occupation.
If you continued at that rate you would leave Saddam standing.

Also it was estimated that half a million Iraqi children died as a result
of the manner in which the US implemented the sanctions regime.
A figure that was not disputed but was in fact considered to be
"worth the price" by Madeleine Allbright, then American ambassador to the UN, on 60 minutes.

Perhaps our dealing with Kosovo when the EU and Nato could not... and our actions with Rwanda and our work in Dal-fur.
There is a lot of debate about the Serbian issue but I cannot comment on it
as I do not have sufficient information.
I know that wouldn't stop you but then I'm not you.

I'm also at a loss as to your actions with Rwanda
I'm only quoting here from http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/
"France announced on June 15 that it would intervene to stop the killing. In a June 22 vote, the UN Security Council gave its blessing to this intervention; that same day, French troops entered Rwanda from Zaire. While intending a wider intervention, confronted with the RPF’s rapid advance across Rwanda, the French set up a “humanitarian zone” in the southwest corner of Rwanda. Their intervention succeeded in saving tens of thousands of Tutsi lives; it also facilitated the safe exit of many of the genocide’s plotters, who were allies of the French. "
"The US did use its influence, however, at the United Nations, but did so to discourage a robust UN response .In late July, however, with the evidence of genocide littering the ground in Rwanda, the US did launch substantial operations—again, in a supporting role—to assist humanitarian relief efforts for those displaced by the genocide."

It surely is sad if the only decisive action is down to France for its
own interests but that your government promoted less not more action
from the UN.


"No america is not perfect.. and neither is any other country in the world.
This does not validate whatever misdeeds are done.. but that is also not to say all misdeeds are done with malintentions."

It just seems remarkable how many actions are committed with what seem
to everyone but americans to be malintentions as you so charmingly phrase it.
You know the ones where they break international law etc.

Referring back to vetoes it is delightful to remember that the US is the only
country that I am aware of that vetoed a resolution that called on all
countries to obey international law.
Of course you were busy breaking it with your support of the contras in Nicaragua, which of course was while you were supplying Saddam with
the information necessary to try to gas Iranians, and while selling arms to
Iran.
What wonderful intentions your administrations have.
To overthrow democracy
promote war and sell weapons to both sides.

If america acted as so many of those EU nations (staying out of international affairs).. thousands more in Kosov would be dead
You may well be right there but then if you hadn't attacked Iraq
theres a hundred thousand people who would be alive today, doesn't that
mean all that much to you.

Israel today might well not exists - You mean as it continues
to make its landgrab in the west bank and cut farmers off from their
fields and their water supplies. Building the wall that encompasses
far more territory than their 1967 borders and which has been declared
illegal.
Or perhaps you mean as they continue their plan to turn the gaza strip
into a massive prison or in other words and more correctly concentration
camp.
Or perhaps you mean as un undeclared nuclear power that has not signed
up to the non proliferation treaty.

Sadam would still be in power - and any killing or torture of his own
population would be being done by him and not by your lot.
Hardly ideal but then if you hadn't made the country so dependant on him
in your effort (with your interpretation of how the sanctions scheme should be implemented )to have the Ba'ath party stay in power but just with a different
face at the top, who knows if he would still have been in power now


and Sudan would continue (as the UN has said) to be thought of as something other then pure genocide.
I'm not even going to comment on the Sudan situation but for
anyone who is interested this article could provide a starting point
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=2&ItemID=7847



The US does have a habit of wanting to decide what is criminal
and what isn't with little reference to actual events.
You were at war with vietnam while Pol Pot was in power in cambodia
You attacked Afghanistan when the vast majority of the 9/11 terrorists
including the guy you claim to be the instigator came from Saudi.
And the big fuss about WMD existing in Iraq in 2002/3
which everyone knew to be false
came without any mention of Israel's nuclear weapons.


There are numerous examples but either you already know them and
choose to ignore them or you don't know them but won't be bothered to
find out for yourself.

I recently joined the Nation States place and verified my email, giving me access to this forum. Once I had that, the name of this topic immediatly caught my eye, and I, being American and hopelessly curious, began reading.

About seven pages into it, I stopped, and skipped to the very end and read the last two pages. Why did I do this? Because reading alot of the stuff posted on here was rotting me from the inside out.

Seriously, guys, stop it, please, just stop it. I'm not reffering to the pro-American's, the anti-American's, or any other group. I reffering to the guys who will lie and lie and lie simply to prove their point. You're making me not want to be involved in politics, or anything, for that matter.

A guy posts a huge, gigantic lists of atrocities America has done, the biggest list I've ever seen compiled, and my first thought it, "Oh My God, I've lived such a sheltered life, I mean, I knew we were bad, but geez..." But then another guy will reply to that topic, and it turns out some of those "atrocities" came from when my next door neighbor accidently stepped on his cat or something.

This is, of course, a huge exxageration, but I'm trying to convey a point. I'm seventeen. I'm young and, compared to most of you, ill-informed. Compared to my friends, I am a god of politics, I know everything, but that's because my friends(and everyone else around me) don't pay attention to politics. That's why, when I go on the internet and search sites like this, and find all these intellectuals whom know much more than I could hope to, I LOVE reading it, love it, because I start to learn more and more, and I happen to have a hard-on for learning.

But learning doesn't work when people aren't honest. And it seems almost every argument on here has had a lie, or a misleading statement, stuffed somewhere in the middle. One guy says, "America invaded China in 1948", and another guy says "Wait, no they didn't, oh, and by the way, your country illegally held another country hostage" and the first guy replies, "No, you're lying, FUCK YOU!!" And the two go back and forth and back and forth, and my attempts to learn anything get lost in the shuffle of two people desperate to prove that the other is wrong by any means necassary.

I guess what I'm trying to say with this long-winded post is, I understand people have their beliefs. But, if something you say gets countered by something, then the first thing you do is research the counter. And if the counter is true, then please, quit talking. Don't instead make up pompous, arrogent bull simply to try and prove your points and beliefs are the right ones. Please.

[QUOTE=Ebony-Caucasian United<snip>

I guess what I'm trying to say with this long-winded post is, I understand people have their beliefs. But, if something you say gets countered by something, then the first thing you do is research the counter. And if the counter is true, then please, quit talking. Don't instead make up pompous, arrogent bull simply to try and prove your points and beliefs are the right ones. Please.[/QUOTE]


Hi there and welcome,

You will find on this forum as well as in the real world that there will
always be some bull. There will always be people who will with false
or fabricated evidence defend the indefensible.

There will also be points of genuine disagreement. Where
it can be simply be less than clear and what you believe depends on
what weight you give to conflicting information.

It is something I am afraid that you will have to get used to.
And no matter who tells you something, no matter how much you
trust them or like the idea of what they say, no matter how right or wrong
it feels to you, you really have to check it out yourself and do your own
research.
But then the internet is great for that.

You should have looked at your chilidog before you swallowed any little nuggets contained in it.

Policemen have to act in accordance to laws.
When you stopped doing that you guys became the despicable cowards
and terrorists on the grand scale and as a nation you have committed
the greatest war crime of all in initiating an aggressive war.

But it seems to me you have swallowed a lot more nuggets of dubious
origin than
may be contained in your chilidog as you cannot grasp the truth of the
situation.

So take your torture supporting murder endorsing little self,
chomp down on that chillidog and eat up all those little nuggets that
your vendor provided you with and that your whitehouse supplies you with.

And if you ever grow up enough to be able to tell the difference between
right and wrong,
mature enough to stand up for the ideals that the US is founded on,
when your government spits on them,
educated enough to have the slightest clue about what is going on,
then you will be an american patriot.
Until then lay back on your sofa, your beer in your left hand and your
boyhood in your other and dream of being a decent human being.


I can never get how people call the 9/11 hijackers cowards, but you push a button to fire a cruise missle 1000 miles away and your a hero. Dipicable, murderous, heinous, wrong, the hijackers were. Cowards, they were not. They knew they would die, and they were willing to give their lives for what they believed was right.

The only cowards are the ones who speak so loudly about the need for war, but do not sign up themselves. Those who make big claimes while hiding in their bomb-proof White House with dozens of armed guards. Those who send others to do their dirty work (on both sides, the Bin Ladens and the Bushes).

The rank n' file, the marines trying to scrape up the money for college, or do right in the world, the Iraqi resistance fighter out to protect his neibhorhood and family, I have the the top respect for. Even though I am vehemently against the invasion, I will thank and respect the troops who have signed up doing what they think is right. Those who kill for pleasure (on both sides), who get their jollies cutting off heads or shotting up cars or beating and killing prisioners, and the leaders who send others to fight for them while reaping the rewards (reaping what they have no sowed), they are the ones who I despise.

A-freaking-men. And thank you.
And I have a little bit of truth that our Serbian friend would love to hear, regarding 9/11. The whole truth. Everyone on here should be able to find a picture of the Pentagon after a "plane" hit on September 11th. In that picture, we see this big, gaping hole with people standing around it. What we do not see is one of two very important things: a hole that that would allow the wings of the "jet" entrance to the Pentagon or either of the jet engines, which happen to be nine FEET in diameter on a Boeing 757; roughly three METERS for my dear European readers. But we see people. Lot's of them. They can't all be twelve feet tall. Where did those engines go?
Another thing we do see is a thick plume of white smoke. Nothing onboard that plane would produce that manner of smoke, but solid rocket propellant does. Any Jane's Guide to something military that flies (there's a few of them) can tell you that all forms of aircraft that carry any number of people uses liquid fuel. Any fire-fighter will tell you that THAT will produce black smoke. Any Jane's Guide to something military that blows up can tell you that solid rocket propellant is used in weapon systems.
Many similar evidences can be seen of the Twin Towers and the Pennsylvania crash.
I do not know what happened there, but I can tell you that we, the people of WORLD have been LIED TO.
I love my country, but something has to be done about the people controlling her.

America doesn't rock, America R&B's.

A-freaking-men.
<cut>
I do not know what happened there, but I can tell you that we, the people of WORLD have been LIED TO.
I love my country, but something has to be done about the people controlling her.

Please do not associate me with your post in any way

I recently joined the Nation States place and verified my email, giving me access to this forum. Once I had that, the name of this topic immediatly caught my eye, and I, being American and hopelessly curious, began reading.

About seven pages into it, I stopped, and skipped to the very end and read the last two pages. Why did I do this? Because reading alot of the stuff posted on here was rotting me from the inside out.

Seriously, guys, stop it, please, just stop it. I'm not reffering to the pro-American's, the anti-American's, or any other group. I reffering to the guys who will lie and lie and lie simply to prove their point. You're making me not want to be involved in politics, or anything, for that matter.

A guy posts a huge, gigantic lists of atrocities America has done, the biggest list I've ever seen compiled, and my first thought it, "Oh My God, I've lived such a sheltered life, I mean, I knew we were bad, but geez..." But then another guy will reply to that topic, and it turns out some of those "atrocities" came from when my next door neighbor accidently stepped on his cat or something.

This is, of course, a huge exxageration, but I'm trying to convey a point. I'm seventeen. I'm young and, compared to most of you, ill-informed. Compared to my friends, I am a god of politics, I know everything, but that's because my friends(and everyone else around me) don't pay attention to politics. That's why, when I go on the internet and search sites like this, and find all these intellectuals whom know much more than I could hope to, I LOVE reading it, love it, because I start to learn more and more, and I happen to have a hard-on for learning.

But learning doesn't work when people aren't honest. And it seems almost every argument on here has had a lie, or a misleading statement, stuffed somewhere in the middle. One guy says, "America invaded China in 1948", and another guy says "Wait, no they didn't, oh, and by the way, your country illegally held another country hostage" and the first guy replies, "No, you're lying, FUCK YOU!!" And the two go back and forth and back and forth, and my attempts to learn anything get lost in the shuffle of two people desperate to prove that the other is wrong by any means necassary.

I guess what I'm trying to say with this long-winded post is, I understand people have their beliefs. But, if something you say gets countered by something, then the first thing you do is research the counter. And if the counter is true, then please, quit talking. Don't instead make up pompous, arrogent bull simply to try and prove your points and beliefs are the right ones. Please.

Welcome, and I hope you enjoy these forums. As a general rule, when two extremes collide, the truth is generaly somewhere in the middle. But alot of times, you can tell the good, intelligent posters from the "no, FUCK YOU!" guys. It's not always this bad, but in a topic like this, emotions are sure to run high. Although in my opinion, you missed some of the best parts, where alot of the angry people went away for a bit, and people on oposite sides found common ground, and had a real debate based on logic and fact. Somewhat.

Anyway, like Reletive said, verify for your self, be warry of what you hear, and you'll find some real, intelligent dabates and debaters here.

Also, it's good to see a new adition that values learning, has an open mind, and values the truth. Good luck :)

A-freaking-men. And thank you.

You're quite welcome :)

I love my country, but something has to be done about the people controlling her.

The people should be in control. I write on money, various things, and one of the things I write is "It's *your* country, take *your* country back!"

The people, the american public needs to rein in their leaders, need to remind them who's serving who. The american public needs to be reminded that *they* are the ones in charge.

It's like that song goes:
"When You Don't Control Your Own Government People Want To Kill You"
longest title ever

Please do not associate me with your post in any way
I don't see how I singled any one person out in any offensive manner, as my intention was not to. All the same, as you wish.

America is a good country, it's great land and a reasonable amount of good intelligent people. The problem is that most people are complete morons. Same with most of the people at the helm. It's like a great sailing ship in the hands of a few monkeys.

I'm not a huge fan of current or previous American policy reagarding the rest of the world. But the past is what we learn from, the US was an agressive millitary nation with expansionist policies. It was and is a young nation. So we should view it's past in that light, not great but not terrible. I saw the list earlier on, and yes much of it is regrettable, but do the same for the UK and it would be ten times as long. But I hope the Uk has learned the lessons of it's past and that of other nations.

The problem is when the US fails to admit they were ever in the wrong, or fail to learn from the past. What is also a problem is when they come down on other young nations doing as the US did in recent history and behave in a high and mighty fashion.

So yeh the US is a great country with some black spots in it's past and still alot to learn (as have we all). I will continue tohave my fun at thier expense and try to ryle it's citizens for my own pleasure when ever possible, after all that's what the English do to their friends.

Ok, the U.S. sucks. This is because many (to many) of it's citizens are ignorant. Have you ever lived in a country while it's being invaded? I'm sure you wouldn't think that going to war with another country is such a good idea after you've realized what you've done. You've not only killed hundreds, or thousands of people but ruined the lives of countless more. America is great to live in... hey, ignorance is bliss.

America is a good country, it's great land and a reasonable amount of good intelligent people. The problem is that most people are complete morons. Same with most of the people at the helm. It's like a great sailing ship in the hands of a few monkeys.

it's not that they are morons, and i highly doubt members of the administration, even bush, are idiots. it would be illogical for the strongest country in the world to have a disproportionate amount of dolts. the problem is that most americans are more enraptured with american idol and pop culture sludge than something "intellectual" like political discussion. i feel that as a whole, we are largely well-meaning, although sometimes our government feels the need to "protect our interests" and in doing so sometimes toes get stepped on. indeed, america (as previously noted) is by far the most generous country when it comes to aid, as well it should being an economic, industrial and agricultural superpower. most americans who support the war think we're doing the iraqis a favor by bringing them democracy. most likely, in the long run, they will probably be right. even america, though, experienced tremendous pains when we first tried to set up a democratic republic. obviously, it's infinitely worse for iraq. the populace didn't overthrow saddam, we, the "christian invaders", did it for them, and combined with administrative incompetence it's no wonder that iraq is so volatile and we are treated with such disdain.

another problem we have is that most americans also possess fierce, and often blind, patriotism. the bush administration has used this to it's advantage, evidenced by the bravado bush portrays when he isn't mangling the english language and his "america kicks ass" attitude. he and his cronies are politically gifted and have managed to appeal to a significant part of the country, enough so that they were able to remain in power despite awful foreign policy decisions and policies that lean toward totalitarianism. now, i don't know what their motives are, but i imagine they want to make america stronger. what i do know is that bush's reign has been harmful to foreign relations, our worldwide perception, and to a lesser extent our economy and individual freedoms.

in summation, i feel that americans are for the most part well-meaning but misguided, possessing an unhealthy infatuation with awful television shows and fast food. our intentions shouldn't be mistaken for our government's, and our perception of the world is skewed by our patriotic zeal and our media.

No country has a clean record. Whether through circumstances or malevolence, governments of every country have done terrible things throughout history. I was born and raised American and what I love about this country has little to do with the crooked hypocrites who slither their way into positions of power in America.

"Nobody's perfect" seems like a weak response to some of the atrocities that the US government and those delegated authority by the US government have perpetrated. A real patriot isn't proud of My Lai or Wounded Knee, but he is proud of rock and roll, the Constitution and the Battle of the Bulge. The French are proud of storming the Bastille, the Resistance and champagne, not of Petain or the massacres of the Huguenots. The English are proud of Magna Carta, Shackleton and Shakespeare, not Dresden or Bloody Sunday. A civilized person who loves his country has no option but to be proud of her achievements and try to learn from her mistakes and improve on her defaults. America's atrocities are under the microscope a bit too much lately due to our latest lapse in Iraq, but it's important to remember that America's gifts to the modern world outweigh (in my opinion) the evil deeds.

Minimal parameters, seeing as you have to be 18 to enter into any contract, which marrage is, and, as you pointed out, minors do not have the same rights.

Would you support the gov's right to outlaw interracial marrage? If not, then obviously the government does not have total control to set parameters and conditions.

But someone else's definition of "minimal parameters" may be different from yours.

No, I would not support the government's right to outlaw interracial marriages, but neither would I say that they didn't have the right to do so. In fact, at one time, interracial marriages WERE outlawed in several states.

People don't just torture themselves you know.
.

No, but lots of Middle Eastern and Third World countries do. They make butt pyramids seem rather tame. :p

And your refusal to say what country you are from says to me that you're rather ashamed of it. Either that, or you're a U.S. citizen and just don't want to admit it. :p

Thanks, by the way, for letting me know how to start my own thread. Now I just need a topic. How about, "Why are all non-Americans such wussies?" ;)

No, but lots of Middle Eastern and Third World countries do. They make butt pyramids seem rather tame. :p

And your refusal to say what country you are from says to me that you're rather ashamed of it. Either that, or you're a U.S. citizen and just don't want to admit it. :p

Thanks, by the way, for letting me know how to start my own thread. Now I just need a topic. How about, "Why are all non-Americans such wussies?" ;)


Yes you are right there are lots of countries that commit torture,
breaches of human rights are for example one of the charges
the U.S levels against cuba rather ironically.
Butt pyramids as you call them may be fun and games for you
but they are one of the breaches of human rights committed by the United
States but are far from the worst of the abuses that we have seen
the pictures of.

The US administration has withheld ones not already published and
advised that they did contain far worse.
They have withheld them of course because allowing them to
be released would inflame opinion against them and could "jeopardize
the lives of American soldiers"

Seymour Hersh who broke the story, who has seen the unpublished
videos has hinted at what those worse
things were and what he has suggested is as bad as anything Saddam
did. But you can look that up for yourself.

I thankfully do not have to deal with the shame of being a US citizen
in these current times.
I have stated before that my country is irrelevant to this discussion.
Given how the truly anti-american seek to justify their administrations actions
with reference to the worst actions of the least democratic and unjust
societies ever known in history,
I can only imagine that your continuous queries relating to my own
nationality is to attempt to divert attention from the current criminal actions
undertaken in your name by your administration
rather than taking
any responsibility or action over the government's dismantling
of everything that the US supposedly represents.

As to your final comment.
Your experience in Iraq would seem to indicate that Iraqis at least
are far from "wussies"

On the other hand, your president is known to hightail it at the first sign
of trouble, once someone explains that there is trouble anyway.
Then the worldwide opinion that he very much is a "wussie" would tend
to reflect onto the people who he represents or even claims to represent.


Anyway I am done with this thread as nobody is now presenting anything
like any kind of logical argument to justify their position but seem happy
that historically America is no worse than the Roman Empire or other
non democratic regimes that have existed throughout history.

And I quite agree, there have been regimes as bad as sometimes even worse
than yours. I had just thought Americans thought of themselves as holding sacred
certain rights and believing some truths to be self evident
somehow better than mass murdering torturing dictators,
it is a real eye opener
to realise that those are in fact the regimes that you are happy to be equal with.

But it does beg the question,
Why do you object to being accused of being on a par with those regimes?
Or why you think that these actions will cause your nation to be
anything other than despised by others?

But it does beg the question,
Why do you object to being accused of being on a par with those regimes?
Or why you think that these actions will cause your nation to be
anything other than despised by others?

First of all, your use of "you." I am not a member of the current administration. In fact, I voted for John Kerry for president. I do not identify myself with the current administration and thus do not blame myself for any of its actions.

That said, I AM proud to be an American. We have a great country here, which is still the envy of the world. Is our entire history squeeky-clean? No, of course not, no country's is. As another poster said, "comparison with worse regimes doesn't make ours good", but I daresay it does make it BETTER. Whatever this country's faults, we still have it better here than anywhere else in the world, including, I would venture to say, your mysterious country. Those who can only point to the bad, or rather to what they perceive as bad, are either jealous, or, in the case of our homegrown dissidents, are just people who just don't seem able to enjoy the wonderful life they've been given here. These people would probably be unhappy wherever they lived.

Do we have poverty? Yes, but we also have the means to OVERCOME poverty. I'm living proof of that. We've also had oppressed groups in this country at various times in our history (and perhaps homosexuals still consider themselves "oppressed"), but we have courts and a legal system which has gradually leveled the playing field. There are still racial inequities, but if someone is really determined to succeed, he or she can overcome these, using the courts if necessary.

The final verdict: America rocks!

Plus, can you accully disprove the list? Or can you just resort to using the word "bs" and not back up your assertations with fact?

Well, some of what is he says is undoubtedly true. However, since there were several references to the U.S. intervening militarily in South America in the early 19th century, when the entire U.S. military only numbered a few thousand men, I decided to investigate the U.S.'s relations with Paraguay, since our Serbian friend listed that nation several times.

I work in the history department of a major library, so material was not difficult to come by. In no history of Paraguay that I read, did I come across any incident of U.S. military intervention there, be it in the 19th century or at any other time. That doesn't prove it never happened, of course, but if it had you'd think I could find at least one reference to it. The Serb also referenced a U.S. "blockade" of Paraguay in the 19th century. It seems, however, that Paraguay always was landlocked, as it is still today. So what was the U.S. blockading?

This is just one small incident, but given his long list of supposed U.S. involvement in Latin American affairs at a time when U.S. military strength was negligible, I'm sure that at lot of the other items on his list are bogus as well.

The U.S. DID have one major intervention in Latin American affairs in the 19th Century, however. It was called "The Monroe Doctrine," which basically told European powers to leave the Americas alone.

Anyway I am done with this thread

Is that a promise, I hope?

I work in the history department of a major library, so material was not difficult to come by. In no history of Paraguay that I read, did I come across any incident of U.S. military intervention there, be it in the 19th century or at any other time. That doesn't prove it never happened, of course, but if it had you'd think I could find at least one reference to it. .

Sorry to sort of break my promise.
But I won't get into any debate about america rocking or not

I have no pressing concern with anything that happened in the 19th
century and am at a bit of a loss as to exactly why it was
included in a list of atrocities.

I'm open to correction as I only spent about 30 seconds researching this.
I found this entry which doesn't seem to indicate much of anything
other than US used a show of force to get what they want.
Which I am not keen on but it does seem a rather minor matter.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/1859-war.htm

I think perhaps your research skills are lacking as while it doesn't rate
as atrocity or as far as I can tell even remotely close it really isn't hard
to find some reference to it.

Well, some of what is he says is undoubtedly true. However, since there were several references to the U.S. intervening militarily in South America in the early 19th century, when the entire U.S. military only numbered a few thousand men, I decided to investigate the U.S.'s relations with Paraguay, since our Serbian friend listed that nation several times.

I work in the history department of a major library, so material was not difficult to come by. In no history of Paraguay that I read, did I come across any incident of U.S. military intervention there, be it in the 19th century or at any other time. That doesn't prove it never happened, of course, but if it had you'd think I could find at least one reference to it. The Serb also referenced a U.S. "blockade" of Paraguay in the 19th century. It seems, however, that Paraguay always was landlocked, as it is still today. So what was the U.S. blockading?

This is just one small incident, but given his long list of supposed U.S. involvement in Latin American affairs at a time when U.S. military strength was negligible, I'm sure that at lot of the other items on his list are bogus as well.

The U.S. DID have one major intervention in Latin American affairs in the 19th Century, however. It was called "The Monroe Doctrine," which basically told European powers to leave the Americas alone.

You have mistaken me for someone else. I have never said anything about Paraguay. My list only goes with crimes after the WW II. That guy who mentioned Paraguay and posted that long list WAS NOT me. I didn't have time to research his list so I cannot comment it.

Your point about america is half true. YES, America is the best country for AMERICANS and all those living there. YES, AMERICA rocks for them, and American internal affairs were never put to question by me (although I could have done that as well, with a lot of facts).

My list was referring to American FOREIGN affairs and if we put aside all speculations, stories, guessings, emotions and everything else, and stick to the pure mathematics then America is a country with the largest amount of blood on its' hands, and thereore I can say without hesitation that America is currently THE WORST TERRORIST in the world, it has been like that since the WW II (when they abandoned their policy of isolationism). Once again, America has many good and kind people, but the reason why America continues to do what it has been doing for the past 60 years is simply becauce, as the song says, full of "Idontcareicans".

My apologies to the good and smart people of the USA but unfortunately you are in minority otherwise America would really be a defender of freedom and democracy; but right now America is an imperialistic country caring only for its' own sake and as M. Albright would say - 500 000 innocent dead, that's an acceptable price.

Feel free to call me bad names Bandoland and all of you who are blindly patriotic, but history will show the truth.

Sorry to sort of break my promise.
But I won't get into any debate about america rocking or not

I have no pressing concern with anything that happened in the 19th
century and am at a bit of a loss as to exactly why it was
included in a list of atrocities.

I'm open to correction as I only spent about 30 seconds researching this.
I found this entry which doesn't seem to indicate much of anything
other than US used a show of force to get what they want.
Which I am not keen on but it does seem a rather minor matter.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/1859-war.htm

I think perhaps your research skills are lacking as while it doesn't rate
as atrocity or as far as I can tell even remotely close it really isn't hard
to find some reference to it.

I guess that being a librarian causes me to distrust the internet a bit, although I did check Wikipedia and they didn't mention it. Be that as it may, I have no doubt as to the veracity of the article. You're right, it hardly passes for an "atrocity," but it did happen. I'm not adverse to learning new things. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

"You have mistaken me for someone else. I have never said anything about Paraguay. My list only goes with crimes after the WW II. That guy who mentioned Paraguay and posted that long list WAS NOT me. I didn't have time to research his list so I cannot comment it."

Fair enough.

"Your point about america is half true. YES, America is the best country for AMERICANS and all those living there. YES, AMERICA rocks for them, and American internal affairs were never put to question by me (although I could have done that as well, with a lot of facts)."

Thank you for that. :)


"My list was referring to American FOREIGN affairs and if we put aside all speculations, stories, guessings, emotions and everything else, and stick to the pure mathematics then America is a country with the largest amount of blood on its' hands, and thereore I can say without hesitation that America is currently THE WORST TERRORIST in the world, it has been like that since the WW II (when they abandoned their policy of isolationism). Once again, America has many good and kind people, but the reason why America continues to do what it has been doing for the past 60 years is simply becauce, as the song says, full of "Idontcareicans"."

You might want to try to imagine, if you can, what the world would really be like had the U.S. not abandoned its isolationism.

"My apologies to the good and smart people of the USA"

Apology accepted. ;)

" but unfortunately you are in minority otherwise America would really be a defender of freedom and democracy; but right now America is an imperialistic country caring only for its' own sake and as M. Albright would say - 500 000 innocent dead, that's an acceptable price."

Well, that's your opinion. Pardon me if I disagree.

"Feel free to call me bad names Bandoland and all of you who are blindly patriotic,"

That's what free speech is all about. :)

" but history will show the truth."

Indeed it shall, and many people may be surprised by it, yourself included.

Have a GREAT day! :)

That said, I AM proud to be an American. We have a great country here, which is still the envy of the world. Is our entire history squeeky-clean? No, of course not, no country's is. As another poster said, "comparison with worse regimes doesn't make ours good", but I daresay it does make it BETTER. Whatever this country's faults, we still have it better here than anywhere else in the world, including, I would venture to say, your mysterious country. Those who can only point to the bad, or rather to what they perceive as bad, are either jealous, or, in the case of our homegrown dissidents, are just people who just don't seem able to enjoy the wonderful life they've been given here. These people would probably be unhappy wherever they lived.

I am, by your catigories, a home-grown dissident, and I realise that I have a freakin' sweet life here. I am by no means rich, but nor do I want for food, shelter, clothing, et cetera, my family goes to the beach in the summer, all that jazz. My problem isn't that I can't enjoy my life here, I thank God every day I was so fortunate as to be born into this, and have the capacity to create for my self such a life when I leave home. My reason for dissent is, I suppose, that old saying "none are free when some are oppressed." Even though I my self am not hurt by the government, I know that other people are, so I still critisize the government for that. I know people directly effected by US forgien policy (if you'll recal my family's friend Wilbert), thus, my conscience compells me to take the stance I do, and also to try to help others in hard stops. So, as you said, I would probably have these critisizms anywhere, as people still suffer everywhere. If I lived in Amsterdam, I would bemoan those killed in Iraq by Saddam, if I lived in South Africa I would bemoan the horrible loss of life in Chechnia/Russia, if I lived in Japan I would bemoan the violence and injustice in South Africa, if I lived in China I would bemoan the actions of my own government, the US gov, South Africa, Iraq, Chechnia, drug cartels in Columbia, western Imperialism everywhere, petty greed of tyrants and politicians everywhere, just as I do right here in the US of A.

I don't think we have it better here then everywhere else. We have the highest violent crime and murder rate, we have one of the highest poverty rates, many more people in this country then in other developed nations just barely get by. We are terribely overworked in this country. European workers generally get twice or three times the paid vacation and sick days as American workers do.

Of course our history is not squeaky clean, we both agree on that, what we disagree on is just how dirty. I see to much dirt to be forgiven, you see what you would expect of any large rug, but with alot of good as well. I, too, see the good, but I think that the bad outweighs it, or at least demands much more attention then most Americans give it.

Reletive has a point with the war crimes thing. Why is Bush against an international war crimes court? Why is America the security council member who vetos the reselution that requires all members to abide by international law? Why does America seem to think the rules only apply to everyone else, that we can commit war crimes and crimes against humanity without having to answer to anyone?

I don't think we have it better here then everywhere else. We have the highest violent crime and murder rate, we have one of the highest poverty rates, many more people in this country then in other developed nations just barely get by. We are terribely overworked in this country. European workers generally get twice or three times the paid vacation and sick days as American workers do.

Of course our history is not squeaky clean, we both agree on that, what we disagree on is just how dirty. I see to much dirt to be forgiven, you see what you would expect of any large rug, but with alot of good as well. I, too, see the good, but I think that the bad outweighs it, or at least demands much more attention then most Americans give it.

Reletive has a point with the war crimes thing. Why is Bush against an international war crimes court? Why is America the security council member who vetos the reselution that requires all members to abide by international law? Why does America seem to think the rules only apply to everyone else, that we can commit war crimes and crimes against humanity without having to answer to anyone?

The high murder rate, in my opinion, could be solved by outlawing the possession of personal firearms, as I've stated in other threads. Needless to say, there are those who disagree with me.

I think that MORE people have it better here than MOST people anywhere else. As I've already admitted, poverty exists here, but so does opportunity. I myself grew up very poor, and while I'm still not rich, I'm not hurting, either. I would like more vacation time, though, now that you mention it. :p

You say the bad outweighs the good. I guess you're the type who sees the cup half empty. I see it half full, actually more like three-quarters full. Problems? Yes, certainly, but also capable of solutions for these problems. Call me an optimist. :)

Very few countries have ever been called to account for war crimes, and then only because they were on the losing side. America's "war crimes" are insignificant when compared with those Nazi Germany or the former Soviet Union, or even Saddam's Iraq, for that matter. And no, comparison with worse cases doesn't make them right, but they are also minor enough to be handled by the military's own justice system, and, in fact, those responsible have been court-martialled or are about to be. There is no reason for them to be tried by outsiders, from whom it is doubtful that they would ever receive anything even remotely resembling a fair trial.

That huge list is stupid, most of it is pointless war rhetoric between pissed off secretaries of defense, America is like most world powers throughout history, none of them have a clean slate but in the end history will usally recognize their accomplishments in a positive light ;)

I’d like everyone here to read this, just to get the full picture of the USA (a country which, according to some of you, rocks)

I’ll try to be brief. After the WW II, America is the country that has committed the greatest number of crimes against mankind. Here is the list of all countries that have been attacked by America:

China 1945-46.
Korea 1950-53.
China 1950-53.
Guatemala 1954.
Indonesia 1958.
Cuba 1959-60.
Guatemala 1960.
Kongo 1964.
Peru 1965.
Laos 1964-73.
Vietnam 1961-73.
Kambodia 1969-70.
Guatemala 1967-69.
Grenada 1983.
Lebanon 1984.
Libia 1986.
El Salvador 1980s
Nikaragua 1980s
Panama 1989.
Sudan 1998.
Afghanistan 1998.
Yugoslavia 1999.
Iraq 1991-2003.

Only in these cruel aggression millions of civilians lost their lives; And all of that because America was “defending freedom.” You know, the funny thing is that only America is allowed, probably by their god, to bomb other countries to defend freedom, while when someone else does that, it is considered a war crime. Great country that America is, right?

Another funny thing about America is this latest war on terrorism. Now, let one thing be clear, I certainly don’t support terrorism and I am against any violence. America is, by their own words, a leader in the world’s fight against terrorism. That sounds good, right? But have you ever asked yourself how were those terrorist organizations found? Or even better, who supported them?? The answer is, my dear America lovers, AMERICA. Let’s take Talibans for instance. While they were fighting soviets, they were good, America supported them every way it could. America was giving them weapons, was training their members, even Osama Bin Laden himself was trained by the CIA. But no, back then, while they were against soviets, they weren’t terrorists, and now when they turned against USA, now they are.

Or let’s take Iraq for instance, you’re going to love this. In 1963 when it became possible to nationalize Iraq Petroleum Company, CIA brought Ba’ath party to power, you’re guessing whose party that was – YES, Saddam Hussein’s party. During his invasion on Iran, guess who gave him his support – AMERICA. Back than, many civil right groups were telling the USA to stop supporting Saddam because he was using nerve gas against Iranian soldiers and Kurds, but back then, Saddam was their friend, so his crimes were not actually crimes because he was a friend of the USA and USA does not commit crimes. Many people think that Al Quaida’s camps were the main source of terrorists, but that’s not true. There is a military base in Georgia, called Fort Benning. Only in this base, America trained around 60 000 Latin American soldiers, policemen and others; what is so bad about that you might wonder? 2/3 of the officers who committed terrible crimes in El Salvador were trained there. Their “products” from Fort Benning committed horrible crimes in Chile, Grenada. Guatemala and Panama, and guess what? America supported them in all of their actions.

William Blum, an ex State Department officer, who is now a big criticizer of the USA said that after the WWII America bombed 23 countries, The largest intervention in Vietnam took away 58 000 American lives and around 4 000 000 (yes, that’s millions) of Vietnamese lives. The uprising in Indonesia in 1965-68 was also supported by America – result: over a million of dead. There is another interesting event that newspapers hardly ever mentioned – a holocaust in Cambodia in 1969-1970; American bombing killed over 600 000 settlers and opened a road to savage actions by Red Kmers. Laos, a nearby country to Cambodia still contains thousands of cluster bombs that were tested there by America still kill thousands of people a year. But why would America care, I mean, after all they are still among countries that never adopted international agreement that forbids using mines, also agreement that forbids using bio or chemical weapons, they never accepted the international court of justice, Children rights convention, Kyoto protocol and more.

A Congress investigation in 1992 discovered that Bush senior and his advisers had ordered a cover up of illegal weapons shipments to Iraq via other countries. The Congress library still has papers where it’s shown that America supplied Iraq with chemical weapons (Antrax virus developed in Maryland), I guess it’s business first for America, as long as their clients kill other non Americans.

And this is only a small part.

Now do you still think that America rocks?
I still do because without America the world would be fascist or worse, communist! America = saviour of the free world. Your list is also pointless as these are not (all) crimes against mankind.

Relative....Katz guy...

I thank you both. You rule.

America has given aid to Britain many times
Therefore they are our natural allies
however, I believe that they should calm their shouts at being the greatest nation on earth.
Britain is the only nation to have owned over 1/4 of the world

The high murder rate, in my opinion, could be solved by outlawing the possession of personal firearms, as I've stated in other threads. Needless to say, there are those who disagree with me.

I think that MORE people have it better here than MOST people anywhere else. As I've already admitted, poverty exists here, but so does opportunity. I myself grew up very poor, and while I'm still not rich, I'm not hurting, either. I would like more vacation time, though, now that you mention it. :p

You say the bad outweighs the good. I guess you're the type who sees the cup half empty. I see it half full, actually more like three-quarters full. Problems? Yes, certainly, but also capable of solutions for these problems. Call me an optimist. :)

Very few countries have ever been called to account for war crimes, and then only because they were on the losing side. America's "war crimes" are insignificant when compared with those Nazi Germany or the former Soviet Union, or even Saddam's Iraq, for that matter. And no, comparison with worse cases doesn't make them right, but they are also minor enough to be handled by the military's own justice system, and, in fact, those responsible have been court-martialled or are about to be. There is no reason for them to be tried by outsiders, from whom it is doubtful that they would ever receive anything even remotely resembling a fair trial.

Accully, we have one of the biggest rich-poor devides, and one of the highest poverty rates, so more people in other developed countryies have it better. Less have it best, but more have it better. There is more in the middle, whereas in America, it is more spread out. We have more poor people, and more rich people. Personally, I'd settle for less rich people if it ment less poor people, but I have found this to be a matter of personsal prefrence.

Some of America's war crimes are not as insignifigant as you claim. I'm not talking about Abu Grahb, I'm talking about things like supporting and felicitating mass murderous regimes, I'm talking about launching un-nessicary wars that get hundrends of thousands killed (not spacificlly Iraq), I'm talking about completely ignoring rules of engagement, of bombing non-military targets (not even in relation to the resistance, but before the ground invasion even began).

Do you really distrust your fellow weatern nations so much? It's not like we're asking to put US soldiers and policy makers on trial by Iran or North Korea or something, I fail to see how a fair international trial can't be fair.

The reason we don't want an international war crimes court is because the US wants to play by it's own rules, wants to be able to change them as it pleases, and wants no one to get in the way.

As an after note, I apologize for the poorly writen post, it has beena long day and I am exhusted, physically and mentally. Tomarrow I will be more eloquent, I promise.

Relative....Katz guy...

I thank you both. You rule.

Keep on keeping on, ma brotha

America has given aid to Britain many times
Therefore they are our natural allies
however, I believe that they should calm their shouts at being the greatest nation on earth.
Britain is the only nation to have owned over 1/4 of the world

I don't measure greatness in amount of land conquered.

Do you really distrust your fellow weatern nations so much? It's not like we're asking to put US soldiers and policy makers on trial by Iran or North Korea or something, I fail to see how a fair international trial can't be fair.

As an after note, I apologize for the poorly writen post, it has beena long day and I am exhusted, physically and mentally. Tomarrow I will be more eloquent, I promise.



I'm sure you will, although I may not be around to read it. :) The U.S. has already been pre-judged by anyone wanting to try them, so a "trial" would be pointless. I think that our Serbian friend has proven that much already. Peace out. ;)

I still do because without America the world would be fascist or worse, communist! America = saviour of the free world. Your list is also pointless as these are not (all) crimes against mankind.

Actually, the most blood-thirsty nation in Post WW2 times is Serbia, something our friend is naturally loath to admit. ;)

G_d F_ck _m_r_c_!

Wanna buy a Vowel?

Actually, the most blood-thirsty nation in Post WW2 times is Serbia, something our friend is naturally loath to admit. ;)

Hmm, let me see. After the WW II Serbia was a part of the Socialistic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, led by Josip Broz Tito. Tito was a world famous leader who was one of the creators of The Non Aligned Movement. The policy of that movement was peace and proesperity without joining any of the cold war blocks. During that time Serbs nor any other Yugoslavian nation DID NOT have any wars. It was only after the desintegration of Yugoslavia that the War in Croatia and Bosnia started (and later in Kosovo). In all those wars I don't think that the number of dead is more then 250 000 people (all together, including Serbs). On the other side, AMERICA has killed millions of people and is still doing that. Prove me that I am wrong (note: you can try but it would be pointless, since I'm right)

Hmmm, bandoland, it seems that when your god was giving brains you were outside waving with american flag up to your knees in blood.

I'm sure you will, although I may not be around to read it. :) The U.S. has already been pre-judged by anyone wanting to try them, so a "trial" would be pointless. I think that our Serbian friend has proven that much already. Peace out. ;)

Pre-judged???? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Sweet merciflul crap (to quote an american that I adore), if someone is having prejudice here it's YOU. I mean, please next time you have something to say, try to write something more inteeligent than this, when I remember that you are working in a public library in the USA much of the things become more clear.:)

And anothe thing, PROVE that anything I said is FALSE!!!!

Their Atrocities-and Ours
by Howard Zinn
The Progressive magazine, July 1999


There was a headline recently in my hometown newspaper, The Boston Globe: PENTAGON DEFENDS AIRSTRIKE ON VILLAGE. U.S. SAYS KOSOVARS WERE HUMAN SHIELDS. That brought back the ugliest of memories. It recalled My Lai and other Vietnam massacres, justified by such comments as "the Vietnamese babies are concealing hand grenades."
Here's the logic: Milosevic has committed atrocities, therefore, it is OK for us to commit atrocities. He is terrorizing the Albanians in Kosovo; therefore, we can terrorize the Serbs in Yugoslavia.
I get e-mail messages from Yugoslav opponents of Milosevic, who demonstrated against him in the streets of Belgrade before the air strikes began. They now tell me their children cannot sleep at night, terrified by the incessant bombing. They tell of the loss of light, of water, of the destruction of the basic sources of life for ordinary people.
To Thomas Friedman, columnist for The New York Times, all Serbs must be punished, without mercy, because they have "tacitly sanctioned" the deeds of their leaders. That is a novel definition of war guilt. Can we now expect an Iraqi journalist to call for bombs placed in every American supermarket on the grounds that all of us have "tacitly sanctioned" the hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq caused by our eight-year embargo?
Official terrorism, whether used abroad or at home, by jet bombers or by the police, always receives an opportunity to explain itself in the press, as ordinary terrorism does not. The thirty-one prisoners and nine guards massacred on orders of New York Governor Nelson Rockefeller in the Attica uprising, the eleven MOVE members, five of whom were children, killed in a fire after their homes were bombed by Philadelphia police; the eighty-six Branch Davidians, including twenty-four children, who died at the Waco compound in an attack ordered by the Clinton Administration; the African immigrant murdered by a gang of policemen in New York-all of these events had explanations that, however absurd, are dutifully given time and space in the media.
One of these explanations seeks comfort in relative numbers. We have heard NATO spokesperson Jamie Shea, as well as Clinton, pass off the bombing of Yugoslav civilians by telling us the Serb
forces have killed more Albanians than we have killed Serbs-although as the air strikes multiply, the numbers are getting closer. No matter: This math work justifies NATO's killing not just Serbs but Albanian refugees, not just adults but children.
There were those who defended the 1945 firestorm bombing of Dresden 100,000 dead?-we can't be sure) by pointing to the Holocaust. As if one atrocity deserves another! I have heard the deaths of more than 150,000 Japanese citizens in the atomic strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified by the terrible acts of the Japanese military in that war.
I suppose if we consider the millions of casualties of all the wars started by national leaders these past sixty years as "tacitly supported" by their populations, some righteous God who made the mistake of reading Thomas Friedman might well annihilate the human race.
Steven Erlanger reported, also in The New York Times, that NATO missiles killed at least eleven people in a residential area of Surdulica, a town in southern Serbia. He described "the mounded rubble across narrow Zmaj Jovina Street, where Aleksandar Milic, thirty-seven, died on Tuesday. Mr. Milic's wife, Vesna, thirty-five, also died. So did his mother and his two children, Miljana, fifteen, and Vladimir, eleven-all of them killed about noon when an errant NATO bomb obliterated their new house and the cellar in which they were sheltering."
Are these "accidents," as NATO and U.S. officials solemnly assure us?
One day in 1945 I dropped canisters of napalm on a village in France. I have no idea how many villagers died, but I did not mean to kill them. Can I absolve what I did by calling it "an accident"?
Aerial bombings have as inevitable consequences the killing of civilians, and this is foreseeable, even if the details about who will be the victims cannot be predicted.
The deaths and mutilations caused by the bombing campaign in Yugoslavia are not accidents but the inevitable result of a deliberate and cruel campaign against the people of that country.
There was an extraordinary report by Tim Weiner in The New York Times contrasting the scene in Belgrade with that in Washington where the NATO summit was taking place. "In Belgrade . . . Gordana Ristic, thirty-three, was preparing to spend another night in the basement-cum-bomb shelter of her apartment building. 'It was a really horrible night last night. There were explosions every few minutes after 2 A.M. . . . I'm sorry that your leaders are not willing to read history.'
"A reporter read to her from Clinton's speeches at the summit meeting. She sounded torn between anger and tears. 'This is the bottom to which civilization, in which I believed, has gone. Clinton is playing a role, singing a song in an opera. It kills me.' As she slept, NATO's leaders dined on soft-shell crabs and spring lamb in the East Room of the White House. Dessert was a little chocolate globe. Jessye Norman sang arias. And as the last limousine left, near midnight, Saturday morning's all-clear sounded in Belgrade."
The television networks, filling our screen with heartrending photos of the Albanian refugees-and those stories must not be ignored-have not given us a full picture of the human suffering in Yugoslavia. An e-mail came to me, a message from Djordje Vidanovic, a professor of linguistics and semantics at the University of Nis: "The little town of Aleksinac, twenty miles away from my hometown, was hit last night with full force. The local hospital was hit, and a whole street was simply wiped off. What I know for certain is six dead civilians and more than fifty badly hurt. There was no military target around whatsoever."
That was an "accident." As was the bombing of the Chinese Embassy. As was the bombing of a civilian train on a bridge over the Juzna Morava River. As was the bombing of Albanian refugees on a road in southern Kosovo. As was the destruction of a civilian bus with twenty-four dead, including four children.
Some stories come through despite the inordinate attention to NATO propaganda, omnipresent on CNN and other networks (and the shameless Shea announced we bombed a television station in Belgrade because it gives out propaganda).
There was a rare description of the gruesome scene at the bus bombing by Paul Watson of The Los Angeles Times.
The New York Times reported the demolition of four houses in the town of Merdare by anti-personnel bombs, "killing five people including Bozina Tosovic, thirty, and his eleven-month-old daughter, Bojana. His wife, six months pregnant, is in the hospital."
When I read a few weeks ago that cluster bombs are being used against Yugoslavia and have caused unprecedented amputations in Kosovo hospitals, I felt a special horror. These bombs have hundreds of shrapnel
Now if NATO were just a club for white people of non-Slavic origin, a place for them to gather over sherry and reminisce about the fun times at Normandy and Ypres, what would it matter how big it got? But it is, of course, a military alliance, meaning a kind of armed gang, and the first thing new members have to do is take a sacred oath to increase their military budgets. This is called "modernizing" and is justified by the need to have all members, including the paupers among them, achieve "NATO-compatible" levels of armaments. As noted by many in the press, the biggest U.S. supporters of NATO expansion were not the Polish-derived citizens of Chicago, they were the manufacturers of missiles and fighter jets.
But what is a military alliance without something militaristic to do? Serb atrocities in Kosovo seemed to present the ideal mission. No one, except perhaps the occupants of Belgrade's bomb shelters, can reasonably deny that Serbia excels in the atrocity-production business (although the Croats and even the Kosovar Albanians can claim some success in this department, too). So Madeleine Albright, consummate hostess that she is, launched her war according to a timetable designed-her aides have since revealed-to get the whole business over with in time for NATO's fiftieth anniversary bash in April. This was to be the beefed-up NATO's inaugural war and proof of its lasting relevance. So what if Serbia's longstanding ally, Russia, had started growling about re-aiming its nuclear warheads at Albright's Washington office?
No victory in sight, NATO held its birthday party in April anyway, with the diplomats all feigning the gravitas appropriate to people engaged in acts of random vandalism from the air. But there were no long faces among some of the partygoers, no indeed. U.S. weapons manufacturers' stocks were booming, thanks to the "excitement in Kosovo," as one market analyst put it, and the arms dealers not only showed up at NATO's party, they actually sponsored it. Well, to be fair, some communications firms like Ameritech pitched in for the hors d'oeuvres, too, but the bulk of the sponsors were defense companies like Boeing, which contributed $250,000, and Raytheon, which has seen its stock soar by 17 percent since NATO's war began. As a reward for their generosity, the executives of sponsoring companies were allowed to mingle with the assembled diplomats, no doubt using the occasion to whisper little pleasantries like, "Boy, do I have a cluster bomb for you!"
But you can't have a meaningful Cold War against just poor old basket-case Russia, whose soldiers can usually be found roaming the streets, panhandling for vodka and turnip money. Hence the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade-and this "hence" does not derive
from any privileged insider information. It would just be too painful to admit that NATO's great moral undertaking includes bombing a crowded city without an up-to-date map. Never mind that China today is no more communist than Connecticut: At least its military is in good enough shape to have funded an American Presidential campaign.
Maybe it's not 1958, though. Maybe it's really 1914. Then, too, a bit of nastiness perpetrated by Serbs-a minor bit, by present-day standards, involving the murder of just two people, who happened to be
the Hapsburg crown prince and his wife- provoked a mighty urge to punish. Nations all over the world suddenly realigned themselves into two opposing camps. Huge war machines, polished to perfection during the preceding decades of relative peace, rolled onto the field. Nothing at all was accomplished in the four years of fighting that followed-nothing, that is, beyond a major expansion of cemetery acreage. So Cold War II is looking a lot like World War I, except that if the nuclear warheads start flying, this could turn into a war that not even Boeing will win.

America would be alright if it wasnt for the fact that they'll attack any country that says a bad word about them, the majority of the nation didnt love them selves and their country so much (God bless America? If I believed in God, I seriously doubt he'd bless America).

Also their tendency to ruin a good film (War of the Worlds, too much family crap) and of course the amazing historical twists. I give you U-571 where a sub of Americans captured the enigma decoding device....real life U-571? A British sub. And dont get me started on Saving Private Ryan, as good a film as it is.

Hmm, let me see. After the WW II Serbia was a part of the Socialistic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, led by Josip Broz Tito. Tito was a world famous leader who was one of the creators of The Non Aligned Movement. The policy of that movement was peace and proesperity without joining any of the cold war blocks. During that time Serbs nor any other Yugoslavian nation DID NOT have any wars. It was only after the desintegration of Yugoslavia that the War in Croatia and Bosnia started (and later in Kosovo). In all those wars I don't think that the number of dead is more then 250 000 people (all together, including Serbs). On the other side, AMERICA has killed millions of people and is still doing that. Prove me that I am wrong (note: you can try but it would be pointless, since I'm right)

Hmmm, bandoland, it seems that when your god was giving brains you were outside waving with american flag up to your knees in blood.

Yeah, Tito was a great guy. I loved him with the Jackson 5. :)

There is some debate as to whether or not wars are justified. The only post-WW2 war in which America participated that produced over a million dead was Vietnam. We got into that war not under right-wing presidents, but under the liberal presidents Kennedy and Johnson. Despite the disaster of that war, no one personally hated the Vietnamese (well, I'm sure SOME people did, one tends to hate the enemy in wartime). At any rate, it wasn't based on ethnicity. In your part of the world, however, various ethnic groups have been hating and killing each other for decades. The Serbs and the Croats in particular seem to be good at that sort of thing.

However, you claim to have killed nobody and I have no reason to doubt that statement. So, do I identify you with the crimes committed by your government? No, I do NOT! Do I hold you personally responsible for those crimes? I do NOT! Do I think that Serbia, all things considered, is a good place to live? As long as it's at peace, I don't see why it can't be.

So, before you go accusing me of "waving [the] american flag up to your knees in blood," consider this. I have never killed anyone, either, not even when I was in the armed forces. I did not vote for our current president nor for anyone in his party. As I have no political office nor any clout other than my vote (and we all saw how much good THAT did me!), I do not feel responsible for this country's foreign policy any more than, I imagine, you feel for yours. So trying to make me feel guilty over what you consider to be American "atrocities" just plain isn't going to work. I live here and I KNOW what it's like to live here, and believe me, it ROCKS! I wouldn't live anywhere else, certainly not in Serbia, anyway. And yes, I WILL wave my flag because I love my country. Don't you feel the same way about yours, despite its obvious failings? I'd like our troops out of Iraq, too, you know, but I have no control over that. But as long as they're there, I'll support them.

(God bless America? If I believed in God, I seriously doubt he'd bless America).

.

If you don't believe in God, then how do you know who or what he'd bless? :confused:

Pre-judged???? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Sweet merciflul crap (to quote an american that I adore), if someone is having prejudice here it's YOU.

Question: Have you not pre-judged America? Was that not the whole point of your initial post?

I agree, not only does America Rock, but it kicks MAJOR ASS!!! HELLZ YAH! Look at all those conflicts we started, we almost have as many wars as Russell Crowe has had fights!!

AMERICA! PHUCK YAH! SUCK MY ASS AND LICK ON MY BALLS AMERICA! PHUCK YAH! COMING AGAIN TO SAVE THE MUTHA PHUCKING DAY NOW!

I love that movie..

America would be alright if it wasnt for the fact that they'll attack any country that says a bad word about them, the majority of the nation didnt love them selves and their country so much (God bless America? If I believed in God, I seriously doubt he'd bless America).

Also their tendency to ruin a good film (War of the Worlds, too much family crap) and of course the amazing historical twists. I give you U-571 where a sub of Americans captured the enigma decoding device....real life U-571? A British sub. And dont get me started on Saving Private Ryan, as good a film as it is.

woah, woah, woah, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. we haven't attacked france now, have we? well, except for that whole assault on french fries, which aren't even french in the first place.

If you don't believe in God, then how do you know who or what he'd bless? :confused:


Cos I've been brought up to believe in Christianity, and studied RE, so I have a reasonable idea about what is blessed and what is not.

Especially in the context it seems to be used. 'We saved a nation from a tyrant, God bless America' I doubt that God would be a great fan of invading a country much nearer to the Holy lands for oil and to generally bully the world, by a country of settlers on the other side of the world.

Yeah, Tito was a great guy. I loved him with the Jackson 5. :)

There is some debate as to whether or not wars are justified. The only post-WW2 war in which America participated that produced over a million dead was Vietnam. We got into that war not under right-wing presidents, but under the liberal presidents Kennedy and Johnson. Despite the disaster of that war, no one personally hated the Vietnamese (well, I'm sure SOME people did, one tends to hate the enemy in wartime). At any rate, it wasn't based on ethnicity. In your part of the world, however, various ethnic groups have been hating and killing each other for decades. The Serbs and the Croats in particular seem to be good at that sort of thing.

However, you claim to have killed nobody and I have no reason to doubt that statement. So, do I identify you with the crimes committed by your government? No, I do NOT! Do I hold you personally responsible for those crimes? I do NOT! Do I think that Serbia, all things considered, is a good place to live? As long as it's at peace, I don't see why it can't be.

So, before you go accusing me of "waving [the] american flag up to your knees in blood," consider this. I have never killed anyone, either, not even when I was in the armed forces. I did not vote for our current president nor for anyone in his party. As I have no political office nor any clout other than my vote (and we all saw how much good THAT did me!), I do not feel responsible for this country's foreign policy any more than, I imagine, you feel for yours. So trying to make me feel guilty over what you consider to be American "atrocities" just plain isn't going to work. I live here and I KNOW what it's like to live here, and believe me, it ROCKS! I wouldn't live anywhere else, certainly not in Serbia, anyway. And yes, I WILL wave my flag because I love my country. Don't you feel the same way about yours, despite its obvious failings? I'd like our troops out of Iraq, too, you know, but I have no control over that. But as long as they're there, I'll support them.

Well, I must admit one thing, this post of Yours has surprised me, maybe I'll regret for saying this, but surprised me in a good way. This is actually the first post of Yours that has been written with cool head. All other previous ones seemed to be rather offensive (as if they were written by an angry teenager, of course I am replying to the posts You wrote to me). Another thing which I might regret for saying but I will say it anyway, since You turn out to be a lot older than me, I apologize for being rude, You are an older man and I respect olders.

Now I would like to explain some things to You, and I think You'll see that you were wrong about calling me prejudicial. Ok, if I had had any prejudices about America or Americans, don't You think that I would have been calling all americans the same, that I would call all of americans to be killers and criminals? I have never said that I found You, or all americans to be responsible for all those millions od dead who died because of America, all I wanted was to show You and everyone else the full picture of america, because it was my personal opinion that americans are mostly unaware of the atrocities that the USA has comitted.

You find Your country to be the greatest, and as I have said many times before, it probably is for americans for many reasons, but it is also the worst terrorist for many other people in the world, also for many reasons. America has killed millions of people, and I am asking You, do You, as a member of the human kind, think that all of those atrocities should be forgotten, and that no one should be blamed for that? Please, try to put yourself in shoes of a settler in Cambodia whose whole family was killed by American bombs; or in shoes of an Iraqian child whose parents were killed in an america raid; or in shoes of a serbian mother whose just born child was killed in a hospital bombed by american planes. I am asking You, how would You feel?

If I was prejudicial, do You think that I would be this objective??? Even most of the information that I have at my disposal comes from americans. My first list? A part of a book written by a former officer of the State Department.

I am asking You, how would You feel if Europe and Russia destroyed the whole american industry and infrastructure and killed thousands of innocent people with bombs just to remove George Bush from his throne? (let's say -because he wanted to clear texas of mexicans).

I don't find You guilty of all of the american atrocities, but what kind of person are You if You deny them? what kind of human being are You if you only value american lives?

At the end, I can only say one more thing, I think that, if nothing else, I have deserved that You treat me with respect.

At the end, I can only say one more thing, I think that, if nothing else, I have deserved that You treat me with respect.

Fair enough, and on that note let's close this thread. Peace be with you, friend. :)

Do me a favor... Name one other country that has taken a country over, only to give it back to the people, even though those people did not openly revolt against them. I can't name one.

The fact that you honestly believe that America is some sort of criminal is just plain ignorant. With all of the civilizations that have tortured, executed and oppressed thier own people, or others, and to have America, the most powerfull country in the world use it's power for (what it percieves as) good, to still claim America is the largest criminal in the world is just plain rediculous.

The US does not always do what it perceives to be right.

A note on Iraq: We could never hold total control of the country indefiatly, especially if we want to continue our other expationist actions. We know this. We also know that we don't have to to reap the same rewards.

I recently had the opertunity to speak to the current US ambassitor to Quatar (a Greek man), and former ambassitor to pretty much every country in the Middle East. This is Washington's Middle East man. He said that the reason so much of the Middle East is messed up, whu there is so much unrest, a major factor is that, after being under Ottoman control for so long, then British control, all the forgien colonizers destroyed, amounst other things, the educational system, and internal infrastructures. So, while these nations have large deposites of natural oil, they have are not equiped to get to it, to exploit it. It is forgieners who come in, westerners, who invest, who reap the rewards, who get wealthy (along with a few members of the gov who they work with), and the country, the people, get crap.

See, we don't need to control the contry outright, we just have to make sure a friendly gov is in power, and then economic imperialism takes hold. Americans go in, Americans reap the rewards, and Iraq becomes another cash cow for US corperations.

I'm sure you will, although I may not be around to read it. :) The U.S. has already been pre-judged by anyone wanting to try them, so a "trial" would be pointless. I think that our Serbian friend has proven that much already. Peace out. ;)

We wouldn't be judged by people on the streets, but by government officals, and those specially chosen for fairness, international judges and whatnot. There's even be a US judge. All I'm asking for is some accountablity.

(God bless America? If I believed in God, I seriously doubt he'd bless America)

God blesses everyone, no exceptions. America, though, is no more brighter blessed then anyone, as much as Americans would like to thinks so.


I agree with Hoos that this should be the end of this thread, it's done all it's ganna do.

Of course, some new guy is ganna see it, post his two cents, and someone will be compelled to respond (probably me...)

Anyway, I'd like to thank you all for a good debate (past the first 10 or so pages, anyway), and wish you all good luck and happyness throughout your lives

:)