NationStates Jolt Archive

I’d like everyone here to read this, just to get the full picture of the USA (a country which, according to some of you, rocks)

I’ll try to be brief. After the WW II, America is the country that has committed the greatest number of crimes against mankind. Here is the list of all countries that have been attacked by America:

China 1945-46.
Korea 1950-53.
China 1950-53.
Guatemala 1954.
Indonesia 1958.
Cuba 1959-60.
Guatemala 1960.
Kongo 1964.
Peru 1965.
Laos 1964-73.
Vietnam 1961-73.
Kambodia 1969-70.
Guatemala 1967-69.
Grenada 1983.
Lebanon 1984.
Libia 1986.
El Salvador 1980s
Nikaragua 1980s
Panama 1989.
Sudan 1998.
Afghanistan 1998.
Yugoslavia 1999.
Iraq 1991-2003.

Only in these cruel aggression millions of civilians lost their lives; And all of that because America was “defending freedom.” You know, the funny thing is that only America is allowed, probably by their god, to bomb other countries to defend freedom, while when someone else does that, it is considered a war crime. Great country that America is, right?

Another funny thing about America is this latest war on terrorism. Now, let one thing be clear, I certainly don’t support terrorism and I am against any violence. America is, by their own words, a leader in the world’s fight against terrorism. That sounds good, right? But have you ever asked yourself how were those terrorist organizations found? Or even better, who supported them?? The answer is, my dear America lovers, AMERICA. Let’s take Talibans for instance. While they were fighting soviets, they were good, America supported them every way it could. America was giving them weapons, was training their members, even Osama Bin Laden himself was trained by the CIA. But no, back then, while they were against soviets, they weren’t terrorists, and now when they turned against USA, now they are.

Or let’s take Iraq for instance, you’re going to love this. In 1963 when it became possible to nationalize Iraq Petroleum Company, CIA brought Ba’ath party to power, you’re guessing whose party that was – YES, Saddam Hussein’s party. During his invasion on Iran, guess who gave him his support – AMERICA. Back than, many civil right groups were telling the USA to stop supporting Saddam because he was using nerve gas against Iranian soldiers and Kurds, but back then, Saddam was their friend, so his crimes were not actually crimes because he was a friend of the USA and USA does not commit crimes. Many people think that Al Quaida’s camps were the main source of terrorists, but that’s not true. There is a military base in Georgia, called Fort Benning. Only in this base, America trained around 60 000 Latin American soldiers, policemen and others; what is so bad about that you might wonder? 2/3 of the officers who committed terrible crimes in El Salvador were trained there. Their “products” from Fort Benning committed horrible crimes in Chile, Grenada. Guatemala and Panama, and guess what? America supported them in all of their actions.

William Blum, an ex State Department officer, who is now a big criticizer of the USA said that after the WWII America bombed 23 countries, The largest intervention in Vietnam took away 58 000 American lives and around 4 000 000 (yes, that’s millions) of Vietnamese lives. The uprising in Indonesia in 1965-68 was also supported by America – result: over a million of dead. There is another interesting event that newspapers hardly ever mentioned – a holocaust in Cambodia in 1969-1970; American bombing killed over 600 000 settlers and opened a road to savage actions by Red Kmers. Laos, a nearby country to Cambodia still contains thousands of cluster bombs that were tested there by America still kill thousands of people a year. But why would America care, I mean, after all they are still among countries that never adopted international agreement that forbids using mines, also agreement that forbids using bio or chemical weapons, they never accepted the international court of justice, Children rights convention, Kyoto protocol and more.

A Congress investigation in 1992 discovered that Bush senior and his advisers had ordered a cover up of illegal weapons shipments to Iraq via other countries. The Congress library still has papers where it’s shown that America supplied Iraq with chemical weapons (Antrax virus developed in Maryland), I guess it’s business first for America, as long as their clients kill other non Americans.

And this is only a small part.

Now do you still think that America rocks?

i wholeheartedly agree, well said, but i think this thread shall become a battleground very soon.

America not only rocks, it kicks ass!

Cleveland especially. ;)

America rocks! Aerosmith, The Doors, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Jimi Hendrix!

You know, I don't think America wants this to get out ;)

You do realise you have just invited a whole bunch of nutters to start raving about how great America is? Or the opposite... Personally I wouldnt bother posting stuff like that simply becuase it doesnt invite intelligent debate... or debate at all... just blinded patritiosm and hatred. I do agree that America is a bit of a hypocritical nation.

Hell yeah I think America Rocks!!

Of the examples you gave, some are truly injustices on our part, but many are legitimate military actions that served to promote justice and freedom.

Every nation makes mistakes. The most powerfull nation in the world will almost invariably make bigger mistakes, but it will also do more good than weaker nations. Also, the first responsibility of the US government is to look after the US people's interests. What nation are you from? Can you honestly say that your nation puts anything above it's own interests?

I agree whole-heartedly, but all this info has been posted however many times before in various threads. It's nothing new, and even if it was, people are set in their ways, you won't make people suddenly turn arround and say "yeah, America sucks!".

Thanks for posting it though, I like your style it made me giggle. The World needs more people to know the truth! *X files Music*

Yeah, I thought maybe this would be different to the usual USA arguments... The US's government doesn't rock but there's far more to a country than its government.

I haven't updated this list for yonks. For more atrocities visit albasrah.net

1608-1987- In between these years, the US and earlier colonies executed an estimated 14 634 of its citizens.
1775- American troops invade Quebec, Canada, during the American Revolution, but are repulsed.
1800, June- The US hangs 35 Black rights campaigners in Virginia.
1801- US freebooters invade the northern territories of New Spain (Mexico).
1806- US troops invade Mexico near the headwaters of the Rio Grande, but are repulsed.
1814- US troops massacre 800 Creek Indians.
1817-19- US troops invade the New Spanish territory of Florida and occupy the east of it.
1822, June- The US executes Black rights campaigner Denmark Vesey and a small number of his comrades in Charleston.
1831- US ships blockade Argentine coasts in an attempt to seize the Malvinas archipelago.
1831, August- The US hangs 16 Black rights campaigners in Jerusalem, Virginia.
1832- The US attempts to annex Jamaica to allow slave labour on the island to continue.
1833- US troops invade Argentina.
1835- US troops invade and occupy parts of Peru.
1846- The US invades Mexico and annexes one million square miles of territory.
1847- US troops invade Nicaragua and occupy the port of San Juan del Norte.
1848- After its brutal military victory over Mexico, the US strips Mexico of almost half of its territories, including New Mexico, California and the rest of Texas.
1851- The governor of California calls for the extermination of all native American Indians in California.
1852- US troops invade Argentina again.
1853- US naval commander Admiral Perry arrives with warships off the coast of Japan, and demands that Japan open its ports to US commodities and merchants.
1854- US warships bombard the Nicaraguan port of San Juan del Norte, in reprisal against supposed offences against a US diplomat.
1855- A US warship attacks Paraguay to force the Paraguayan government to open Paraguayan rivers for ?free navigation?.
1855- US troops invade Paraguay.
1856- The US supports a military takeover in Nicaragua led by a US freebooter, William Walker, who proclaims himself the president of Nicaragua and has slavery restored.
1859- US ships blockade Paraguay.
1861, March 4- The US declares war on the Confederate States of America.
1861, July 21- US and Confederate forces attack one another at near Bull Run, Virginia. The US kills 2000 confederate troops.
1862, September 14- US and Confederate forces clash in Maryland. The US kills 27 000 Confederates.
1863, July- US and Confederate forces clash with a total of 44 000 killed. 23 000 of the killed were US troops.
1865- US troops invade Panama.
1866- The US annexes the Mexican territories of El Chamizal.
1867-71- The US attempts to annex the Dominican Republic, but fails.
1882- US naval forces invade Korea.
1885- US troops invade Panama.
1886, May 3- Chicago policemen open fire on a peaceful worker?s protest, killing 4.
1890- The US sends troops into Buenos Aiers, Argentina, to protect US interests.
1890, December 29- US troops massacre 200-300 Sioux Dakotan Indians at Wounded Knee, South Dakota. Since 1608, tens of millions of Native Americans and African people who had been taken from their families to be slaves in the US have been killed.
1890-1980- Over 90 years, over 5000 African-Americans were lynched legally. During the 1890s alone, over 1000 are hanged.
1891- US naval forces blockade the ports of Haiti and in an attempt to force the Haitian government to surrender Mole de Saint Nicholas Bay.
1891- US marines clash with nationalist rebels in Chile.
1891- US troops successfully put down a worker?s revolt on the US claimed Navassa Island.
1893(?)- The US overthrows the Hawaiian government and annexes Hawaii.
1894- US troops repress a railway workers? strike in Chicago, killing 34.
1894- The US invades Nicaragua.
1894-96- US troops invade Brazil.
1895- The US invades Colombia.
1896- The US invades the Nicaraguan port of Corinto.
1898- The US declares war on Spain and invades Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philippines. From 1899 to 1902, 125 000 US troops subdue Philippine independence fighters. Over 16 000 Filipino troops and an estimated 200 000 to 600 000 Filipino civilians were killed.
1898- US troops attack Chippewa Indians at Leech Lake, Minnesota.
1899- The US manipulates the struggle for the throne in Samoa in order to gain an upper hand in the region.
1899- US troops invade Nicaragua and occupy the port of San Juan del Norte again for a month.
1900- The US sends troops to China to join the multinational western forces suppressing the 1898-1900 Boxer Rebellion.
1900- The US declares Puerto Rico a part of the USA against the will of the people living there.
1901- US troops brutally put down a Creek Indian revolt in Okalahoma.
1902- The US establishes naval bases in Cuba.
1903- The US invades Colombia, creating a new state of Panama, backed by the US navy.
1903- The US invades Honduras.
1905- The US invades the Dominican Republic.
1905- The US invades Costa Rica.
1906- The US invades Cuba and occupies it until 1909 in order to prevent a candidate opposed to the US getting voted into office.
1907- The US invades Nicaragua and Honduras.
1908- The US intervenes with the elections in Panama.
1909- The US invades Nicaragua and occupies it until 1925.
1912- The US invades China to suppress a rebellion and occupies it until 1938.
1912- US troops intervene in Panama to rig the presidential elections.
1912- The US invades Honduras again.
1914- The US invades Mexico again.
1914- US troops plunder the gold reserves of Puerto Cortes.
1914- US troops occupy Veracruz, Mexico.
1915, July 28- Having sent warships into Haitian harbours 20 times between 1850 to 1915, the US invades Haiti in order to prevent anti-US politician and occupies it until 1934.
1916- The US invades Mexico for the third time.
1917-18- The US declares war on Germany.
1917- The US invades Cuba again and occupies it until 1922.
1917- The US invades Costa Rica again.
1917- The US executes 62 African-American soldiers who rioted against white harassment in Houston, Texas.
1918- The US invades the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic along with 13 other countries in an attempt to suppress the new worker's state. So begins the War on Communism that shall last until 1991.
1918-20- The US invades Mexico, Panama, Honduras and Guatemala.
1919- The US intervenes in Yugoslavia on behalf of the Greeks against Serbs in Dalmatia.
1920- The US invades Guatemala to overthrow its government.
1920-21- The US bombs striking mine workers in West Virginia.
1922- The US ignores the Soviet Union?s proposal for complete international disarmament.
1922- US troops fight nationalists in Turkey.
1924-25- The US intervenes in the elections in Honduras.
1925- US troops suppress a general strike in Panama.
1926- The US sends 25 000 marines to invade Nicaragua again to make sure that the US puppet dictator Adolfo Diaz would be overthrown by Liberal rebellions, occupying it until 1933.
1927- The US ignores the Soviet Union?s second proposal for complete international disarmament.
1931- The US invades Guatemala again.
1932- The US sends warships to suppress a revolt in El Salvador.
1933- The US threatens Cuba with invasion.
1938- The US Naval Bill signals construction of the world's largest navy.
1942-45- The US bombs Japan. 672 000 Japanese people are killed in the bombings. The US also bombs France and Germany, killing over 500 000 Germans and thousands of French people.
1943- The US bombs Romania.
1943- US troops brutally put down an African-American revolution in Detroit, Michigan.
1943- The US bombs Hamburg in Germany, killing 50 000.
1945- The US bombs Dresden, Germany, killing 180 000 people.
1945- With the defeat of the German Nazis, the US employs a number of former Nazis, including Reinhard Gehlen, who was the chief of the Nazi anti-soviet intelligence unit and became the head of West Germany?s intel under the US and Klaus Barbie, the ?butcher of Lyon? who was hired by the US and later served as a liaison between the US and a number of Latin American drug lords.
1945- The US drops nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan, killing over 240 000 altogether.
1945-49- The US bombs and invades China with over 113 000 troops and 600 aeroplanes.
1946- The US threatens the USSR with nuclear war after soviets refuse to surrender southern Azerbaijan to US ally Iran. The USSR had no nuclear weapons at this stage.
1946- US warships shell Yugoslav coastal towns after a US plane was shot down over Yugoslavia. They then threaten Yugoslavia with nuclear annihilation.
1946-49- The US and England bomb and invade Greece with 5000 troops and 200 aeroplanes in order to prevent the revolution taking place there from overthrowing the US backed fascist government.
1947- The US flies bombers carrying nuclear weapons over Uruguay in order to intimidate the leftist government there.
1947- The US invades Paraguay.
1947-48- The US sends troops into the Philippines to destroy a people?s revolution there.
1948-present- The US supports Israel, which has massacred thousands of Palestinian civilians. During the Jewish takeover, over 700 000 Palestinians were driven from their homes.
1948- The US threatens nuclear war with the USSR again over East Germany.
1949- The CIA backs a military coup deposing the elected government of Syria.
1949- The US oversees the executions of hundreds of innocent South Korean civilians who happened to be communist or communist sympathetic.
1949-61- The CIA supplies arms to Chinese Nationalists in Burma.
1950-53- The US invades North Korea with over 350 000 troops, 1000 tanks, 1600 warplanes and 300 warships. From 1950-53, the US fights the Korean War and bombs China and Korea, using terrible weapons such as napalm, bacteriological and chemical weapons and twice threatened to use nuclear weapons. Over 2 500 000 North Korean and Chinese people are killed. One of the worst massacres committed by the US occurred at the village of Nogun-Ri, where all 400 villagers, including children and elderly, were machine-gunned to death by US troops. During the war, the US adopted a ?scorched earth? policy and used the USAF to napalm irrigation dams and facilities that provided 75% of North Korea?s food production. When German Nazis did this in WWII to smaller facilities it was considered a war crime. There is still mass-starvation in North Korea as a result of the napalm attacks.
1950- The US crushes a rebellion in Puerto Rico.
1951-54- The CIA supplies weapons to agents in China.
1952- The US begins H-bomb tests on the Alaskan island of Bikini Atoll. The inhabitants were forcibly removed from their homes in order to begin the tests.
1953- The CIA backs a military coup deposing the democratically elected government of Iran, which had begun nationalising Western companies. Installs the Shah instead, who begins brutal repressions of all opposition.
1953- US troops invade Nicaragua.
1954- The US bombs Guatemala and overthrows its government in order to prevent the Guatemalan government from nationalising the United Fruit company.
1954- The US offers nuclear weapons to the French to destroy the communist revolution in Vietnam. Politely refused.
1956- The US supports the Anglo-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt in retaliation against Egyptian president Nasser?s nationalisation of the Suez Canal and alliance with the Soviet Union. The US threatens nuclear war with the USSR if soviet troops intervene.
1956- The US assists fascists in Hungary to assassinate prominent socialists.
1958- The US invades Lebanon with 14 000 marines.
1958- The US bombs Indonesia and supplies arms to anti-Sukarno rebels.
1958- The US threatens Iraq with nuclear war after Iraq begins preparations to depose the US-backed tyrannical leader of Kuwait.
1958- The US threatens China with nuclear war over Taiwan.
1958- The US pressures West Germany into rearming the West German army.
1959-61- The US bombs Cuba.
1960s-present- The US backs the Colombian government, under which an estimated 67 000 people have been killed.
1960s- The US unsuccessfully attempts to assassinate the Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.
1960- The US bombs Guatemala again.
1960- The CIA blows up the Coubre in the bay of Havana, killing a number of people.
1960- US troops fire on protesters in Panama.
1961, April 17- The US attempts to invade Cuba with 1500 mercenaries, 80 warplanes and 35 warships. The attempt is a complete failure.
1961- Socialist Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba of Zaire is assassinated at the express request of US president Eisenhower after Lumumba nationalised several foreign industries in Zaire.
1961- US threatens German Democratic Republic with nuclear war.
1961- The US bombs Vietnam.
1962- The US imposes a naval/air blockade on Cuba and threatens nuclear war.
1963, November 22- A CIA operative called AM/LASH is given authorisation by the CIA to assassinate Fidel Castro with a syringe disguised as a pen. The plot was aborted after Kennedy was assassinated.
1963, December 23- A CIA commando unit uses underwater demolition charges to sink the Cuban navy torpedo boat LT-385 off the coast of the Isle of Pines. 4 personnel are killed.
1964, June 15- US President Lyndon Johnson approves of OPLAN-106-5A, in which the US would make a ?lightening attack? on the USSR. The plans included using nuclear weapons on military sites, industrial centres and cities in the USSR, the GDR, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Yugoslavia, Albania and even Austria. Fortunately, the plan was never employed.
1964- US troops fire on a peaceful protest in Panama killing 21.
1964- The US, Britain and Belgium invade and bomb the Congo with 10 000 troops and 60 warplanes.
1964- The US backs the overthrow of the Greek government. In the years to come, tens of thousands are killed by the new regime.
1964- The US supports a bloodthirsty coup in Brazil.
1964- The US invades Panama and kills hundreds of people trying to overthrow the fascist US-backed regime.
1964-73- The US invades and bombs Laos with 50 000 troops and 1500 warplanes. An estimated 500 000 people are killed.
1965- The US bombs Peru.
1965- US troops and policeman kill 27 rioters during the Watt riots in the US.
1965-73- The US invades Vietnam with 2.6 million troops, 10 000 warplanes and helicopters and hundreds of tanks and warships. The USAF drops napalm, Agent Orange and fourteen million tonnes of bombs and rockets on Vietnam, twice the tonnage of bombs in the whole of World War II and equal to 700 atomic bombs like those dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. During the war, the US began the Phoenix Program, which saw the executions of almost 250 000 people belonging to or associated with communist or nationalist movements in Vietnam. The Agent Orange used during the war still causes birth deformities today.
1965-73-The US assists the Thai government in suppressing a popular uprising.
1965- The US invades the Dominican Republic with 40 000 troops, 275 warplanes and 50 warships.
1965- The US backs the coup in Indonesia that results in General Suhato coming to power. Under Suhato, an estimated one million communists, suspected communists and communist sympathisers are executed.
1965-77- US documents reveal that the US navy experienced 381 accidents with nuclear weapons between these years.
1966- The US sells 16 F-14 Phantom jets to Iran.
1966-67- US Green Berets intervene in Guatemala against rebels.
1967-69- The US bombs Guatemala again.
1967, June- The US Army 327th Infantry Division, or Tiger Force, is shipped into Vietnam. During their time in Vietnam, Tiger Force committed terrible atrocities, such as the massacring of 10 elderly Vietnamese farmers tending a field. The commanding officer of Tiger Force, Colonel Morse, demanded the troops meet a body count of 327 to match the division?s designation. One Tiger Force soldier, Sam Ybarra, raped and murdered a 13 year old girl and shot a 15 year old boy for his tennis shoes. For killing this boy, Ybarra was commended for having killed the 1000th person in Operation Wheeler.
1967, June 5- The US lends military support to the Israeli invasion of Egypt, Jordan and Syria.
1967- US troops kill 43 African-American rights activists during a riot in Detroit.
1968- The US COINTELPOL program kills 29 members of the African-American rights organisation the Black Panthers.
1968, March- US troops massacre 500 innocent Vietnamese civilians, including women, children and elderly people, at My Lai in the worst massacre of civilians since Nogun-Ri during the Korean War.
1968, May 18- The US assassinates African-American rights campaigner Martin Luther King Jr. US stations an average of 21 000 troops in each major city to prevent uprisings.
1968, November 8-9- The US bombs villages near the Cambodian border.
1968-72- The US launches operation Speedy Express in Vietnam. over 11 000 Vietnamese were killed in the operation but less than 500 arms recovered.
1969-75- The US invades and bombs Cambodia with 70 000 troops, 500 warplanes and 40 warships. Up to 2 million Cambodians killed in campaign.
1970- The US assists the Iranian invasion of Oman.
1972, April 25- US president Richard Nixon states his desire to use nuclear bombs on Vietnam. He is advised not to, not to save innocent lives, but to makes sure public opinion doesn?t swing any further against the administration.
1973, February 27- Native American Indians seize Wounded Knee, the sight of the 1890 massacre, demanding a US Senate investigation into Native American problems. US policemen kill people during the 70 day siege that follows.
1973, September 11- The US supports a coup to overthrow the popularly elected socialist President Allende of Chile. Approximately 30 000 are killed by the Pinochet regime.
1973- The US makes plans to invade Saudi Arabia to solve its fuel crisis. The plans were later abandoned.
1974- The Vietnam War ends. An estimated 3 500 000 Vietnamese were killed.
1975- The US arms Angolan nationalist rebels in an attempt to overthrow the popularly elected government there.
1975- According to John Pilger and Noam Chomsky, the US overthrew Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam through the Governor-General. Whitlam wanted to know how many CIA agents and US bases there were in his country and thus had to be removed.
1976-92- The CIA trains Angolan nationalist rebels.
1976, October 6- CIA agent Orlando Bosch hires 2 Venezuelan mercenaries to plant bombs on a Cubana Airlines passenger plane flying from Babados. All 73 passengers on board are killed.
1976-2002- Between these years the US executes 810 of its citizens.
1979- The US supports Saddam Hussein?s bloody takeover of power in Iraq. Hussein immediately switches Iraq?s allegiance from the Soviet Union to the US.
1980- Throughout the 1980s, the US bombs El Salvador and Nicaragua.
1980- US threatens Iran with nuclear war after Iranian Revolution.
1980- The US threatens the USSR with nuclear war if soviet troops intervene in Iran.
1980- Iraq invades Iran with US arms and support.
1980- The US gives military assistance to the fascist junta in El Salvador.
1980, September 11- US extreme-right terrorist organisation Omega 7 murders Cuban diplomat Felix Garcia Rodriguez on a New York City street in broad daylight.
1981- The US shoots down 2 Libyan jets.
1981- US warships mine harbours in Nicaragua.
1981, December 1- US President Ronald Reagan grants $19 million to be spent on training 500 Nicaraguan rebels to fight the Sandinista government in Nicaragua.
1982- The US trains hundreds of El Salvadorian troops of the tyrannical US-puppet regime in place in El Salvador.
1983- The US invades Lebanon with 2000 troops and 30 warships to prop up a pro-Western government.
1983- The US bombs and invades Grenada. 84 Cubans and an estimated 400 Grenadans are killed.
1983- The USS New Jersey bombs hill villages in Lebanon as part of the Israeli invasion.
1984- The US Commerce Department issues license for export of aflatoxin to Iraq useable in biological weapons. Iraq uses these gasses to kill Kurdish civilians in 1988.
1984- The US shoots down 2 Iranian jets over the Persian Gulf.
1984- The US develops the Trident submarine, capable of levelling 229 cities at one time.
1985- The US Reagan administration uses a truck loaded with bombs to kill a Muslin cleric in Beirut who was opposed to the US. The attack killed 80 people and wounded 200 more.
1986- The US attacks Libyan patrol boats and shore installations, killing 72 personnel.
1986- The US bombs Libya, killing over 100 people, including Colonel Qaddafi's adopted daughter.
1986, October- The US spends $100 million to assist the Nicaraguan Contras against the Sandinista government.
1986-87- The US practices first strike attacks against the Soviet Union and ignores nuclear testing bans issued by the USSR.
1987- The US sends a naval fleet to the Persian Gulf to support Iraq's war against Iran. US warships destroy Iranian oil platforms in the Gulf.
1988- The USS Vincennes shoots down an Iranian Airbus, killing 290 civilians.
1988- The Iraqi government uses US biological weapons supplied to them in 1984 to gas Kurds in Halabja, northern Iraq.
1989- The US bombs and invades Panama with 20 000 troops, killing an estimated 7000 people.
1989- The US shoots down two Libyan aircraft.
1989- The US arms Afghani terrorists and landlords with sophisticated technology to repulse the Soviet invasion and overthrow the popular revolutionary Afghani Marxist government. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan eventually costs the USSR so much that it goes bankrupt and collapses.
1989- The US? pocket organisation NATO is responsible for the terrorist bombing of the Bologna railway station in East Germany, killing 86 people.
1991- The US invades Iraq with 535 000 troops and 2950 warplanes. This was the first time the US used Uranium shells on civilians. Over 300 000 Iraqi people were killed. Since the end of the end of the war, 10 000 US soldiers who served in Iraq have died from uranium poisoning from American shells.
1991, March 15- US president George H. Bush gives CIA agent Jose Basullo of the US terrorist organisation Brothers to the Rescue 3 US Air Force type 0-2 aeroplanes. The 0-2s are used to violate Cuban airspace and terrorise the population until the Cubans are forced to shoot them down in 1996.
1991, December 25- The greatest disaster in modern history: the Soviet Union collapses leaving the US as the sole superpower on the planet. It is believed that between 1946 and 1991, the US spent $30 trillion trying to destroy the USSR.
1992- US troops are deployed to put down anti-police riots in Los Angeles.
1993- The US invades Somalia, killing over 10 000 civilians. In one particularly brutal attack, the US killed hundreds of peaceful protesters with helicopter gunships. This gruesome massacre was glorified by the US in the Hollywood film Black Hawk Down. The film drew a great response in Somalia, where film-goers cheered wildly whenever an American soldier was killed or wounded in the film.
1993- The US bombs Iraq
1994- The US invades Haiti again.
1994, May- NATO bombs the Bosnian village of Gorazde, killing 1000 civilians and militiamen.
1994, April- NATO bombs Serbian forces.
Mid-1990s- The US Clinton administration supplies 80% of the arms used by Turkish forces to crush the Turkish Kurd population.
1995- US generals in Croatia advise the neo-fascist dictator Franco Tudjman to force over 300 000 Serbs from their homes in a vast operation called ?Operation Storm?.
1995- The US invades and bombs Bosnia.
1995- The US bombs airfields in Croatia.
1995- The US invades Iraq again under the name ?Desert Storm?.
1996- The US ?saturate? bombs Iraq.
1996-97- US troops harass Rwandan refugees in Congo.
1998- The US bombs Sudan.
1998- The US bombs Afghanistan. 3700 were killed during this attack.
1998- The US bombs Iraq again.
1999- The US bombs Serbia, killing over 3000 civilians. US troops utilised uranium shells in the bombing of Belgrade.
1999- In this year the US kills the largest amount of its citizens since 1976 with a record 98 executions.
1999- By this year, up to 2000 people had been killed by the US in Kosovo.
1999, April 3- NATO planes bomb the Serbian town of Aleksinac, killing 12. Town elders recalled at the time that even Nazi bombers in the Second World War hadn?t bombed civilians.
1999, mid-April- NATO planes attack a train in Serbia, killing 27.
1999, 14 April- US planes attack 2 civilian convoys killing 75 people, wounding 31 and destroying many vehicles.
1999, 15 April- Yugoslav officials state that NATO killed over 200 civilians between the 13th and 15th of April.
1999, 7 May- NATO bombs hit the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, killing 3 embassy staff.
2000- 42% of the African-American population in Texas were on Death Row in this year. The African-American population of Texas made up 12% of the Texan population.
2001, September 11- Former CIA soldier Osama bin Laden uses his CIA training to launch two passenger airlines at the American World Trade Centres and another one at the US military HQ, the Pentagon. Thousands are killed. The US threatens Iraq, Syria, Cuba, Afghanistan and North Korea with invasion.
2001- The US invades Afghanistan. US academic Marc Herald claims that 3780 people had been killed in between the first day of bombing and May 2002, although this figure does not include civilians who have indirectly died as a result of the invasion, such as those killed by starvation. British newspaper the Guardian states that over 20 000 people have been killed as a result of the invasion. German journalist Doran witnessed and filmed the executions of 3000 Taliban prisoners by the US. So begins the War on Terrorism.
2001- US troops forcibly disarm Albanian rebels.
2001, September 30- Israel uses American helicopters to destroy civilian homes in Palestine.
2001, October 11- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Khorum in order to destroy a non-existent Taliban base. At least 100 people were killed.
2001, October 22- US troops kill 25 Afghani civilians in the village of Chowkar-Karez.
2001, October 31- US missiles kill 13 Afghani civilians in Kandahar.
2001, November- US warplanes kill several hundred rioting Taliban being held captive at the fortress of Qala-i-janghi.
2001, December 6-7- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Moshkhil. 16 civilians were killed.
2001, December 21- US warplanes attack an Afghani civilian convoy and 10 houses. 65 people were killed.
2001, December 30- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Qalaye Niaze. According to local doctors, 107 civilians were killed. The UN puts the death toll at 52, including 25 children.
2002, May 10- Australian troops acting as part of the US invasion force in Afghanistan kill 4 men for no reason whatsoever.
2002, May 12- US troops kill two unarmed Afghani teenagers during a raid.
2002, May 16- US warplanes and Australian troops kill 10 Afghani tribesmen.
2002, May 25- US troops abduct 59 civilians and kill two people- a 100 year old man, village chief Hajji Berget, who was killed after being hit in the head with a US rifle butt, and a 6 year old girl who fell down a well fleeing in terror from US troops.
2002, July 1- A US AC-130 helicopter gunship killed 54 Afghani civilians and injured 120 in Kakarak. Some sources believe that over 300 had been killed or wounded in the attack. Most of those killed were people attending a wedding in Kakarak.
2003, March 20- The US invades Iraq again killing an estimated 500 000 people. One of the initial operations, Operation Peninsula Strike, claimed 100 civilian lives, 70 of which at a refugee camp near the Syrian border. A 70 year old shepherd and his 3 sons were shot extinguishing flames caused by US shelling.
2003, March 21- 6 Iraqi civilians are killed during US airstrikes on Basra in Iraq.
2003, March 22- The US kills between 50 and 77 civilians during an airstrike on Basra using cluster bombs.
2003, March 23- US airstrikes kill 4 civilians in Tikrit, Iraq.
2003, March 23- The US kills 14 people in Basra, Iraq.
2003, March 31- US soldiers from the US Army 3rd Infantry Division open fire on a car , killing 11 of the 17 occupants ?by accident? at a US checkpoint south of Karbala, Iraq. One of the survivors, Lamea Hassan, later told reporters that "I saw the heads of my two little girls come off. My girls- I saw their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead."
A journalist at the scene recorded the US captain in charge of the checkpoint yelling at the trigger-happy troops; "You just fucking killed a family because you didn?t fire a warning shot soon enough."
On the same day, 3 British soldiers were ordered to home ?for protesting that the war is killing innocent civilians.?
2003, April- The US allows 150 Israeli commandos into Iraq to hunt and kill over 500 Iraqi scientists, according to a French general.
2003, April 1- The US kills 33 Iraqis and injures another 310 while bombing the Iraqi town of Hilla. Razek al-Kazem al-Khafaji told French reporters that his wife and their six children, his father, mother and three brothers were killed during the assault in Hilla. As well as this, US troops kill an unarmed Iraqi driver outside the town of Shatra.
2003, April- US DynCorp employees assigned to police NATO-devastated Bosnia on behalf of the UN were videotaped raping women and implicated of buying and selling prostitutes as young as 12 years old.
2003, April 15- US troops kill 13 Iraqis and wound another 29 people peacefully protesting in Mosul.
2003, April 16- US troops kill 4 Iraqis and wound another 10 people peacefully protesting in Mosul.
2003, April 27- US troops kill between 13 and 15 Iraqis protesting in Fallujah. Among the dead were three children under 11 years old.
2003, April 29- US troops open fire on 1000 Iraqis protesting in Fallujah. 2 civilians are killed and an additional 14 are injured.
2003, May 18- US troops kill 16 Iraqi resistance fighters.
2003, August 3- The US kills 70 Iraqi civilians in a crackdown on ?Saddam Hussein loyalists?.
2003, December 8- A US airstrike kills 10 Afghani civilians, 9 of whom were children. The US claimed it was hunting for a Taliban leader.
2003- The US makes its first plans to assassinate Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez in mid-2003. The plans are fortunately discovered by the Venezuelans.
2004, January 10- Having executed three of its citizens in the first week of 2004, the US states its plans to establish a mining base on the moon, thus signalling the beginning of US expansionism into space.
2004, March- The US sends troops into Haiti to support right-wing rebels who had overthrown the democratically elected popular President Aristedes.
2004, April 7- US troops destroy a mosque in Iraq.
2004, April 8- US troops kill up to 50 Iraqi civilians during increased clashes with Iraqi freedom fighters.
2004, April 9- The US abandons 3 Japanese civilians to their fate when it advises the Japanese government to ignore the Iraqi kidnapper?s demands to have Japan withdraw its troops from Iraq. Fortunately the hostages were released.
2004, May- The US is discovered to be torturing and murdering inmates at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. There shocking photographs depicted a US soldier, Lynndie England,

America rocked back in the '60s and 70's. We still had Grace Slick and Jefferson Airplane (They were good, then), Jim Morrison was still alive. I'm not sure about now...

I think America sucks just based on many of it's internal policies. We're total crap when comes to external.

OOC: America, fuck yeah!
IC:I'm getting tired of all these stupid anti-Americans. OK, we've fucked up a good few times, but it's not like the rest of the fucking world is any better......let's see the track record of your home country, Serbian Baranja

I haven't updated this list for yonks. For more atrocities visit albasrah.net

1608-1987- In between these years, the US and earlier colonies executed an estimated 14 634 of its citizens.
1775- American troops invade Quebec, Canada, during the American Revolution, but are repulsed.
1800, June- The US hangs 35 Black rights campaigners in Virginia.
1801- US freebooters invade the northern territories of New Spain (Mexico).
1806- US troops invade Mexico near the headwaters of the Rio Grande, but are repulsed.
1814- US troops massacre 800 Creek Indians.
1817-19- US troops invade the New Spanish territory of Florida and occupy the east of it.
1822, June- The US executes Black rights campaigner Denmark Vesey and a small number of his comrades in Charleston.
1831- US ships blockade Argentine coasts in an attempt to seize the Malvinas archipelago.
1831, August- The US hangs 16 Black rights campaigners in Jerusalem, Virginia.
1832- The US attempts to annex Jamaica to allow slave labour on the island to continue.
1833- US troops invade Argentina.
1835- US troops invade and occupy parts of Peru.
1846- The US invades Mexico and annexes one million square miles of territory.
1847- US troops invade Nicaragua and occupy the port of San Juan del Norte.
1848- After its brutal military victory over Mexico, the US strips Mexico of almost half of its territories, including New Mexico, California and the rest of Texas.
1851- The governor of California calls for the extermination of all native American Indians in California.
1852- US troops invade Argentina again.
1853- US naval commander Admiral Perry arrives with warships off the coast of Japan, and demands that Japan open its ports to US commodities and merchants.
1854- US warships bombard the Nicaraguan port of San Juan del Norte, in reprisal against supposed offences against a US diplomat.
1855- A US warship attacks Paraguay to force the Paraguayan government to open Paraguayan rivers for ?free navigation?.
1855- US troops invade Paraguay.
1856- The US supports a military takeover in Nicaragua led by a US freebooter, William Walker, who proclaims himself the president of Nicaragua and has slavery restored.
1859- US ships blockade Paraguay.
1861, March 4- The US declares war on the Confederate States of America.
1861, July 21- US and Confederate forces attack one another at near Bull Run, Virginia. The US kills 2000 confederate troops.
1862, September 14- US and Confederate forces clash in Maryland. The US kills 27 000 Confederates.
1863, July- US and Confederate forces clash with a total of 44 000 killed. 23 000 of the killed were US troops.
1865- US troops invade Panama.
1866- The US annexes the Mexican territories of El Chamizal.
1867-71- The US attempts to annex the Dominican Republic, but fails.
1882- US naval forces invade Korea.
1885- US troops invade Panama.
1886, May 3- Chicago policemen open fire on a peaceful worker?s protest, killing 4.
1890- The US sends troops into Buenos Aiers, Argentina, to protect US interests.
1890, December 29- US troops massacre 200-300 Sioux Dakotan Indians at Wounded Knee, South Dakota. Since 1608, tens of millions of Native Americans and African people who had been taken from their families to be slaves in the US have been killed.
1890-1980- Over 90 years, over 5000 African-Americans were lynched legally. During the 1890s alone, over 1000 are hanged.
1891- US naval forces blockade the ports of Haiti and in an attempt to force the Haitian government to surrender Mole de Saint Nicholas Bay.
1891- US marines clash with nationalist rebels in Chile.
1891- US troops successfully put down a worker?s revolt on the US claimed Navassa Island.
1893(?)- The US overthrows the Hawaiian government and annexes Hawaii.
1894- US troops repress a railway workers? strike in Chicago, killing 34.
1894- The US invades Nicaragua.
1894-96- US troops invade Brazil.
1895- The US invades Colombia.
1896- The US invades the Nicaraguan port of Corinto.
1898- The US declares war on Spain and invades Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philippines. From 1899 to 1902, 125 000 US troops subdue Philippine independence fighters. Over 16 000 Filipino troops and an estimated 200 000 to 600 000 Filipino civilians were killed.
1898- US troops attack Chippewa Indians at Leech Lake, Minnesota.
1899- The US manipulates the struggle for the throne in Samoa in order to gain an upper hand in the region.
1899- US troops invade Nicaragua and occupy the port of San Juan del Norte again for a month.
1900- The US sends troops to China to join the multinational western forces suppressing the 1898-1900 Boxer Rebellion.
1900- The US declares Puerto Rico a part of the USA against the will of the people living there.
1901- US troops brutally put down a Creek Indian revolt in Okalahoma.
1902- The US establishes naval bases in Cuba.
1903- The US invades Colombia, creating a new state of Panama, backed by the US navy.
1903- The US invades Honduras.
1905- The US invades the Dominican Republic.
1905- The US invades Costa Rica.
1906- The US invades Cuba and occupies it until 1909 in order to prevent a candidate opposed to the US getting voted into office.
1907- The US invades Nicaragua and Honduras.
1908- The US intervenes with the elections in Panama.
1909- The US invades Nicaragua and occupies it until 1925.
1912- The US invades China to suppress a rebellion and occupies it until 1938.
1912- US troops intervene in Panama to rig the presidential elections.
1912- The US invades Honduras again.
1914- The US invades Mexico again.
1914- US troops plunder the gold reserves of Puerto Cortes.
1914- US troops occupy Veracruz, Mexico.
1915, July 28- Having sent warships into Haitian harbours 20 times between 1850 to 1915, the US invades Haiti in order to prevent anti-US politician and occupies it until 1934.
1916- The US invades Mexico for the third time.
1917-18- The US declares war on Germany.
1917- The US invades Cuba again and occupies it until 1922.
1917- The US invades Costa Rica again.
1917- The US executes 62 African-American soldiers who rioted against white harassment in Houston, Texas.
1918- The US invades the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic along with 13 other countries in an attempt to suppress the new worker's state. So begins the War on Communism that shall last until 1991.
1918-20- The US invades Mexico, Panama, Honduras and Guatemala.
1919- The US intervenes in Yugoslavia on behalf of the Greeks against Serbs in Dalmatia.
1920- The US invades Guatemala to overthrow its government.
1920-21- The US bombs striking mine workers in West Virginia.
1922- The US ignores the Soviet Union?s proposal for complete international disarmament.
1922- US troops fight nationalists in Turkey.
1924-25- The US intervenes in the elections in Honduras.
1925- US troops suppress a general strike in Panama.
1926- The US sends 25 000 marines to invade Nicaragua again to make sure that the US puppet dictator Adolfo Diaz would be overthrown by Liberal rebellions, occupying it until 1933.
1927- The US ignores the Soviet Union?s second proposal for complete international disarmament.
1931- The US invades Guatemala again.
1932- The US sends warships to suppress a revolt in El Salvador.
1933- The US threatens Cuba with invasion.
1938- The US Naval Bill signals construction of the world's largest navy.
1942-45- The US bombs Japan. 672 000 Japanese people are killed in the bombings. The US also bombs France and Germany, killing over 500 000 Germans and thousands of French people.
1943- The US bombs Romania.
1943- US troops brutally put down an African-American revolution in Detroit, Michigan.
1943- The US bombs Hamburg in Germany, killing 50 000.
1945- The US bombs Dresden, Germany, killing 180 000 people.
1945- With the defeat of the German Nazis, the US employs a number of former Nazis, including Reinhard Gehlen, who was the chief of the Nazi anti-soviet intelligence unit and became the head of West Germany?s intel under the US and Klaus Barbie, the ?butcher of Lyon? who was hired by the US and later served as a liaison between the US and a number of Latin American drug lords.
1945- The US drops nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan, killing over 240 000 altogether.
1945-49- The US bombs and invades China with over 113 000 troops and 600 aeroplanes.
1946- The US threatens the USSR with nuclear war after soviets refuse to surrender southern Azerbaijan to US ally Iran. The USSR had no nuclear weapons at this stage.
1946- US warships shell Yugoslav coastal towns after a US plane was shot down over Yugoslavia. They then threaten Yugoslavia with nuclear annihilation.
1946-49- The US and England bomb and invade Greece with 5000 troops and 200 aeroplanes in order to prevent the revolution taking place there from overthrowing the US backed fascist government.
1947- The US flies bombers carrying nuclear weapons over Uruguay in order to intimidate the leftist government there.
1947- The US invades Paraguay.
1947-48- The US sends troops into the Philippines to destroy a people?s revolution there.
1948-present- The US supports Israel, which has massacred thousands of Palestinian civilians. During the Jewish takeover, over 700 000 Palestinians were driven from their homes.
1948- The US threatens nuclear war with the USSR again over East Germany.
1949- The CIA backs a military coup deposing the elected government of Syria.
1949- The US oversees the executions of hundreds of innocent South Korean civilians who happened to be communist or communist sympathetic.
1949-61- The CIA supplies arms to Chinese Nationalists in Burma.
1950-53- The US invades North Korea with over 350 000 troops, 1000 tanks, 1600 warplanes and 300 warships. From 1950-53, the US fights the Korean War and bombs China and Korea, using terrible weapons such as napalm, bacteriological and chemical weapons and twice threatened to use nuclear weapons. Over 2 500 000 North Korean and Chinese people are killed. One of the worst massacres committed by the US occurred at the village of Nogun-Ri, where all 400 villagers, including children and elderly, were machine-gunned to death by US troops. During the war, the US adopted a ?scorched earth? policy and used the USAF to napalm irrigation dams and facilities that provided 75% of North Korea?s food production. When German Nazis did this in WWII to smaller facilities it was considered a war crime. There is still mass-starvation in North Korea as a result of the napalm attacks.
1950- The US crushes a rebellion in Puerto Rico.
1951-54- The CIA supplies weapons to agents in China.
1952- The US begins H-bomb tests on the Alaskan island of Bikini Atoll. The inhabitants were forcibly removed from their homes in order to begin the tests.
1953- The CIA backs a military coup deposing the democratically elected government of Iran, which had begun nationalising Western companies. Installs the Shah instead, who begins brutal repressions of all opposition.
1953- US troops invade Nicaragua.
1954- The US bombs Guatemala and overthrows its government in order to prevent the Guatemalan government from nationalising the United Fruit company.
1954- The US offers nuclear weapons to the French to destroy the communist revolution in Vietnam. Politely refused.
1956- The US supports the Anglo-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt in retaliation against Egyptian president Nasser?s nationalisation of the Suez Canal and alliance with the Soviet Union. The US threatens nuclear war with the USSR if soviet troops intervene.
1956- The US assists fascists in Hungary to assassinate prominent socialists.
1958- The US invades Lebanon with 14 000 marines.
1958- The US bombs Indonesia and supplies arms to anti-Sukarno rebels.
1958- The US threatens Iraq with nuclear war after Iraq begins preparations to depose the US-backed tyrannical leader of Kuwait.
1958- The US threatens China with nuclear war over Taiwan.
1958- The US pressures West Germany into rearming the West German army.
1959-61- The US bombs Cuba.
1960s-present- The US backs the Colombian government, under which an estimated 67 000 people have been killed.
1960s- The US unsuccessfully attempts to assassinate the Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.
1960- The US bombs Guatemala again.
1960- The CIA blows up the Coubre in the bay of Havana, killing a number of people.
1960- US troops fire on protesters in Panama.
1961, April 17- The US attempts to invade Cuba with 1500 mercenaries, 80 warplanes and 35 warships. The attempt is a complete failure.
1961- Socialist Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba of Zaire is assassinated at the express request of US president Eisenhower after Lumumba nationalised several foreign industries in Zaire.
1961- US threatens German Democratic Republic with nuclear war.
1961- The US bombs Vietnam.
1962- The US imposes a naval/air blockade on Cuba and threatens nuclear war.
1963, November 22- A CIA operative called AM/LASH is given authorisation by the CIA to assassinate Fidel Castro with a syringe disguised as a pen. The plot was aborted after Kennedy was assassinated.
1963, December 23- A CIA commando unit uses underwater demolition charges to sink the Cuban navy torpedo boat LT-385 off the coast of the Isle of Pines. 4 personnel are killed.
1964, June 15- US President Lyndon Johnson approves of OPLAN-106-5A, in which the US would make a ?lightening attack? on the USSR. The plans included using nuclear weapons on military sites, industrial centres and cities in the USSR, the GDR, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Yugoslavia, Albania and even Austria. Fortunately, the plan was never employed.
1964- US troops fire on a peaceful protest in Panama killing 21.
1964- The US, Britain and Belgium invade and bomb the Congo with 10 000 troops and 60 warplanes.
1964- The US backs the overthrow of the Greek government. In the years to come, tens of thousands are killed by the new regime.
1964- The US supports a bloodthirsty coup in Brazil.
1964- The US invades Panama and kills hundreds of people trying to overthrow the fascist US-backed regime.
1964-73- The US invades and bombs Laos with 50 000 troops and 1500 warplanes. An estimated 500 000 people are killed.
1965- The US bombs Peru.
1965- US troops and policeman kill 27 rioters during the Watt riots in the US.
1965-73- The US invades Vietnam with 2.6 million troops, 10 000 warplanes and helicopters and hundreds of tanks and warships. The USAF drops napalm, Agent Orange and fourteen million tonnes of bombs and rockets on Vietnam, twice the tonnage of bombs in the whole of World War II and equal to 700 atomic bombs like those dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. During the war, the US began the Phoenix Program, which saw the executions of almost 250 000 people belonging to or associated with communist or nationalist movements in Vietnam. The Agent Orange used during the war still causes birth deformities today.
1965-73-The US assists the Thai government in suppressing a popular uprising.
1965- The US invades the Dominican Republic with 40 000 troops, 275 warplanes and 50 warships.
1965- The US backs the coup in Indonesia that results in General Suhato coming to power. Under Suhato, an estimated one million communists, suspected communists and communist sympathisers are executed.
1965-77- US documents reveal that the US navy experienced 381 accidents with nuclear weapons between these years.
1966- The US sells 16 F-14 Phantom jets to Iran.
1966-67- US Green Berets intervene in Guatemala against rebels.
1967-69- The US bombs Guatemala again.
1967, June- The US Army 327th Infantry Division, or Tiger Force, is shipped into Vietnam. During their time in Vietnam, Tiger Force committed terrible atrocities, such as the massacring of 10 elderly Vietnamese farmers tending a field. The commanding officer of Tiger Force, Colonel Morse, demanded the troops meet a body count of 327 to match the division?s designation. One Tiger Force soldier, Sam Ybarra, raped and murdered a 13 year old girl and shot a 15 year old boy for his tennis shoes. For killing this boy, Ybarra was commended for having killed the 1000th person in Operation Wheeler.
1967, June 5- The US lends military support to the Israeli invasion of Egypt, Jordan and Syria.
1967- US troops kill 43 African-American rights activists during a riot in Detroit.
1968- The US COINTELPOL program kills 29 members of the African-American rights organisation the Black Panthers.
1968, March- US troops massacre 500 innocent Vietnamese civilians, including women, children and elderly people, at My Lai in the worst massacre of civilians since Nogun-Ri during the Korean War.
1968, May 18- The US assassinates African-American rights campaigner Martin Luther King Jr. US stations an average of 21 000 troops in each major city to prevent uprisings.
1968, November 8-9- The US bombs villages near the Cambodian border.
1968-72- The US launches operation Speedy Express in Vietnam. over 11 000 Vietnamese were killed in the operation but less than 500 arms recovered.
1969-75- The US invades and bombs Cambodia with 70 000 troops, 500 warplanes and 40 warships. Up to 2 million Cambodians killed in campaign.
1970- The US assists the Iranian invasion of Oman.
1972, April 25- US president Richard Nixon states his desire to use nuclear bombs on Vietnam. He is advised not to, not to save innocent lives, but to makes sure public opinion doesn?t swing any further against the administration.
1973, February 27- Native American Indians seize Wounded Knee, the sight of the 1890 massacre, demanding a US Senate investigation into Native American problems. US policemen kill people during the 70 day siege that follows.
1973, September 11- The US supports a coup to overthrow the popularly elected socialist President Allende of Chile. Approximately 30 000 are killed by the Pinochet regime.
1973- The US makes plans to invade Saudi Arabia to solve its fuel crisis. The plans were later abandoned.
1974- The Vietnam War ends. An estimated 3 500 000 Vietnamese were killed.
1975- The US arms Angolan nationalist rebels in an attempt to overthrow the popularly elected government there.
1975- According to John Pilger and Noam Chomsky, the US overthrew Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam through the Governor-General. Whitlam wanted to know how many CIA agents and US bases there were in his country and thus had to be removed.
1976-92- The CIA trains Angolan nationalist rebels.
1976, October 6- CIA agent Orlando Bosch hires 2 Venezuelan mercenaries to plant bombs on a Cubana Airlines passenger plane flying from Babados. All 73 passengers on board are killed.
1976-2002- Between these years the US executes 810 of its citizens.
1979- The US supports Saddam Hussein?s bloody takeover of power in Iraq. Hussein immediately switches Iraq?s allegiance from the Soviet Union to the US.
1980- Throughout the 1980s, the US bombs El Salvador and Nicaragua.
1980- US threatens Iran with nuclear war after Iranian Revolution.
1980- The US threatens the USSR with nuclear war if soviet troops intervene in Iran.
1980- Iraq invades Iran with US arms and support.
1980- The US gives military assistance to the fascist junta in El Salvador.
1980, September 11- US extreme-right terrorist organisation Omega 7 murders Cuban diplomat Felix Garcia Rodriguez on a New York City street in broad daylight.
1981- The US shoots down 2 Libyan jets.
1981- US warships mine harbours in Nicaragua.
1981, December 1- US President Ronald Reagan grants $19 million to be spent on training 500 Nicaraguan rebels to fight the Sandinista government in Nicaragua.
1982- The US trains hundreds of El Salvadorian troops of the tyrannical US-puppet regime in place in El Salvador.
1983- The US invades Lebanon with 2000 troops and 30 warships to prop up a pro-Western government.
1983- The US bombs and invades Grenada. 84 Cubans and an estimated 400 Grenadans are killed.
1983- The USS New Jersey bombs hill villages in Lebanon as part of the Israeli invasion.
1984- The US Commerce Department issues license for export of aflatoxin to Iraq useable in biological weapons. Iraq uses these gasses to kill Kurdish civilians in 1988.
1984- The US shoots down 2 Iranian jets over the Persian Gulf.
1984- The US develops the Trident submarine, capable of levelling 229 cities at one time.
1985- The US Reagan administration uses a truck loaded with bombs to kill a Muslin cleric in Beirut who was opposed to the US. The attack killed 80 people and wounded 200 more.
1986- The US attacks Libyan patrol boats and shore installations, killing 72 personnel.
1986- The US bombs Libya, killing over 100 people, including Colonel Qaddafi's adopted daughter.
1986, October- The US spends $100 million to assist the Nicaraguan Contras against the Sandinista government.
1986-87- The US practices first strike attacks against the Soviet Union and ignores nuclear testing bans issued by the USSR.
1987- The US sends a naval fleet to the Persian Gulf to support Iraq's war against Iran. US warships destroy Iranian oil platforms in the Gulf.
1988- The USS Vincennes shoots down an Iranian Airbus, killing 290 civilians.
1988- The Iraqi government uses US biological weapons supplied to them in 1984 to gas Kurds in Halabja, northern Iraq.
1989- The US bombs and invades Panama with 20 000 troops, killing an estimated 7000 people.
1989- The US shoots down two Libyan aircraft.
1989- The US arms Afghani terrorists and landlords with sophisticated technology to repulse the Soviet invasion and overthrow the popular revolutionary Afghani Marxist government. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan eventually costs the USSR so much that it goes bankrupt and collapses.
1989- The US? pocket organisation NATO is responsible for the terrorist bombing of the Bologna railway station in East Germany, killing 86 people.
1991- The US invades Iraq with 535 000 troops and 2950 warplanes. This was the first time the US used Uranium shells on civilians. Over 300 000 Iraqi people were killed. Since the end of the end of the war, 10 000 US soldiers who served in Iraq have died from uranium poisoning from American shells.
1991, March 15- US president George H. Bush gives CIA agent Jose Basullo of the US terrorist organisation Brothers to the Rescue 3 US Air Force type 0-2 aeroplanes. The 0-2s are used to violate Cuban airspace and terrorise the population until the Cubans are forced to shoot them down in 1996.
1991, December 25- The greatest disaster in modern history: the Soviet Union collapses leaving the US as the sole superpower on the planet. It is believed that between 1946 and 1991, the US spent $30 trillion trying to destroy the USSR.
1992- US troops are deployed to put down anti-police riots in Los Angeles.
1993- The US invades Somalia, killing over 10 000 civilians. In one particularly brutal attack, the US killed hundreds of peaceful protesters with helicopter gunships. This gruesome massacre was glorified by the US in the Hollywood film Black Hawk Down. The film drew a great response in Somalia, where film-goers cheered wildly whenever an American soldier was killed or wounded in the film.
1993- The US bombs Iraq
1994- The US invades Haiti again.
1994, May- NATO bombs the Bosnian village of Gorazde, killing 1000 civilians and militiamen.
1994, April- NATO bombs Serbian forces.
Mid-1990s- The US Clinton administration supplies 80% of the arms used by Turkish forces to crush the Turkish Kurd population.
1995- US generals in Croatia advise the neo-fascist dictator Franco Tudjman to force over 300 000 Serbs from their homes in a vast operation called ?Operation Storm?.
1995- The US invades and bombs Bosnia.
1995- The US bombs airfields in Croatia.
1995- The US invades Iraq again under the name ?Desert Storm?.
1996- The US ?saturate? bombs Iraq.
1996-97- US troops harass Rwandan refugees in Congo.
1998- The US bombs Sudan.
1998- The US bombs Afghanistan. 3700 were killed during this attack.
1998- The US bombs Iraq again.
1999- The US bombs Serbia, killing over 3000 civilians. US troops utilised uranium shells in the bombing of Belgrade.
1999- In this year the US kills the largest amount of its citizens since 1976 with a record 98 executions.
1999- By this year, up to 2000 people had been killed by the US in Kosovo.
1999, April 3- NATO planes bomb the Serbian town of Aleksinac, killing 12. Town elders recalled at the time that even Nazi bombers in the Second World War hadn?t bombed civilians.
1999, mid-April- NATO planes attack a train in Serbia, killing 27.
1999, 14 April- US planes attack 2 civilian convoys killing 75 people, wounding 31 and destroying many vehicles.
1999, 15 April- Yugoslav officials state that NATO killed over 200 civilians between the 13th and 15th of April.
1999, 7 May- NATO bombs hit the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, killing 3 embassy staff.
2000- 42% of the African-American population in Texas were on Death Row in this year. The African-American population of Texas made up 12% of the Texan population.
2001, September 11- Former CIA soldier Osama bin Laden uses his CIA training to launch two passenger airlines at the American World Trade Centres and another one at the US military HQ, the Pentagon. Thousands are killed. The US threatens Iraq, Syria, Cuba, Afghanistan and North Korea with invasion.
2001- The US invades Afghanistan. US academic Marc Herald claims that 3780 people had been killed in between the first day of bombing and May 2002, although this figure does not include civilians who have indirectly died as a result of the invasion, such as those killed by starvation. British newspaper the Guardian states that over 20 000 people have been killed as a result of the invasion. German journalist Doran witnessed and filmed the executions of 3000 Taliban prisoners by the US. So begins the War on Terrorism.
2001- US troops forcibly disarm Albanian rebels.
2001, September 30- Israel uses American helicopters to destroy civilian homes in Palestine.
2001, October 11- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Khorum in order to destroy a non-existent Taliban base. At least 100 people were killed.
2001, October 22- US troops kill 25 Afghani civilians in the village of Chowkar-Karez.
2001, October 31- US missiles kill 13 Afghani civilians in Kandahar.
2001, November- US warplanes kill several hundred rioting Taliban being held captive at the fortress of Qala-i-janghi.
2001, December 6-7- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Moshkhil. 16 civilians were killed.
2001, December 21- US warplanes attack an Afghani civilian convoy and 10 houses. 65 people were killed.
2001, December 30- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Qalaye Niaze. According to local doctors, 107 civilians were killed. The UN puts the death toll at 52, including 25 children.
2002, May 10- Australian troops acting as part of the US invasion force in Afghanistan kill 4 men for no reason whatsoever.
2002, May 12- US troops kill two unarmed Afghani teenagers during a raid.
2002, May 16- US warplanes and Australian troops kill 10 Afghani tribesmen.
2002, May 25- US troops abduct 59 civilians and kill two people- a 100 year old man, village chief Hajji Berget, who was killed after being hit in the head with a US rifle butt, and a 6 year old girl who fell down a well fleeing in terror from US troops.
2002, July 1- A US AC-130 helicopter gunship killed 54 Afghani civilians and injured 120 in Kakarak. Some sources believe that over 300 had been killed or wounded in the attack. Most of those killed were people attending a wedding in Kakarak.
2003, March 20- The US invades Iraq again killing an estimated 500 000 people. One of the initial operations, Operation Peninsula Strike, claimed 100 civilian lives, 70 of which at a refugee camp near the Syrian border. A 70 year old shepherd and his 3 sons were shot extinguishing flames caused by US shelling.
2003, March 21- 6 Iraqi civilians are killed during US airstrikes on Basra in Iraq.
2003, March 22- The US kills between 50 and 77 civilians during an airstrike on Basra using cluster bombs.
2003, March 23- US airstrikes kill 4 civilians in Tikrit, Iraq.
2003, March 23- The US kills 14 people in Basra, Iraq.
2003, March 31- US soldiers from the US Army 3rd Infantry Division open fire on a car , killing 11 of the 17 occupants ?by accident? at a US checkpoint south of Karbala, Iraq. One of the survivors, Lamea Hassan, later told reporters that "I saw the heads of my two little girls come off. My girls- I saw their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead."
A journalist at the scene recorded the US captain in charge of the checkpoint yelling at the trigger-happy troops; "You just fucking killed a family because you didn?t fire a warning shot soon enough."
On the same day, 3 British soldiers were ordered to home ?for protesting that the war is killing innocent civilians.?
2003, April- The US allows 150 Israeli commandos into Iraq to hunt and kill over 500 Iraqi scientists, according to a French general.
2003, April 1- The US kills 33 Iraqis and injures another 310 while bombing the Iraqi town of Hilla. Razek al-Kazem al-Khafaji told French reporters that his wife and their six children, his father, mother and three brothers were killed during the assault in Hilla. As well as this, US troops kill an unarmed Iraqi driver outside the town of Shatra.
2003, April- US DynCorp employees assigned to police NATO-devastated Bosnia on behalf of the UN were videotaped raping women and implicated of buying and selling prostitutes as young as 12 years old.
2003, April 15- US troops kill 13 Iraqis and wound another 29 people peacefully protesting in Mosul.
2003, April 16- US troops kill 4 Iraqis and wound another 10 people peacefully protesting in Mosul.
2003, April 27- US troops kill between 13 and 15 Iraqis protesting in Fallujah. Among the dead were three children under 11 years old.
2003, April 29- US troops open fire on 1000 Iraqis protesting in Fallujah. 2 civilians are killed and an additional 14 are injured.
2003, May 18- US troops kill 16 Iraqi resistance fighters.
2003, August 3- The US kills 70 Iraqi civilians in a crackdown on ?Saddam Hussein loyalists?.
2003, December 8- A US airstrike kills 10 Afghani civilians, 9 of whom were children. The US claimed it was hunting for a Taliban leader.
2003- The US makes its first plans to assassinate Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez in mid-2003. The plans are fortunately discovered by the Venezuelans.
2004, January 10- Having executed three of its citizens in the first week of 2004, the US states its plans to establish a mining base on the moon, thus signalling the beginning of US expansionism into space.
2004, March- The US sends troops into Haiti to support right-wing rebels who had overthrown the democratically elected popular President Aristedes.
2004, April 7- US troops destroy a mosque in Iraq.
2004, April 8- US troops kill up to 50 Iraqi civilians during increased clashes with Iraqi freedom fighters.
2004, April 9- The US abandons 3 Japanese civilians to their fate when it advises the Japanese government to ignore the Iraqi kidnapper?s demands to have Japan withdraw its troops from Iraq. Fortunately the hostages were released.
2004, May- The US is discovered to be torturing and murdering inmates at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. There shocking photographs depicted a US soldier, Lynndie England,
Nice list of one-sided anti-American propaganist bullshit. Some of the claims are justified, some are heavily spun to make America look bad. For example, April 7 2004 US destroys a mosque. Please don't bother to mention that enemy troops were fighting from the mosque. That destroys your argument. If it's used as a military site then it's no longer given the protection accorded to a religious site. If you say where you come from, given some time and research we could probably do a similar hatchet job on your nation.

1859- US ships blockade Paraguay.


Not a difficult thing to do. Paraguay is a land-locked country. :p

You could make a list of things like that with any other country. Many of the things you listed were actions of crazy individuals, not the US Government. Especially the early things on the list.

Nice list of one-sided anti-American propaganist bullshit. Some of the claims are justified, some are heavily spun to make America look bad. For example, April 7 2004 US destroys a mosque. Please don't bother to mention that enemy troops were fighting from the mosque. That destroys your argument. If it's used as a military site then it's no longer given the protection accorded to a religious site. If you say where you come from, given some time and research we could probably do a similar hatchet job on your nation.

Not to mention the whole thread was started by a Serbian. You wouldn't think that they'd be the ones to bring up the subject of aggressive wars and human rights violations.

Every time I hear such bullshit propaganda claims of America being evil I just want to give up on being decent and show the world what damage we really are capable of inflicting on our enemies. These threads are so fucking counterproductive. All they do is make Americans angry and xenophobic. Of course the people who post them are flawed individuals who feel weak and intimidated by US economic and military strength, and only seek to demonize America and play the victim card because their own ideologies have proven to be failures in the real world.

snip

That really isn't fair.

You can't count prior to 1776, we weren't the United States then.

And, like super-power said. All countries have had times of trouble. Like the Revolution in France, the Spanish Inquistion, etc., etc. Let's see what England did in India and it's other colonies, or Germany. Egypt? Greece? Or even mexico, or Columbia.

Although very recently, I have to admit we are an embarrassment. With Abu Ghraib and such.

Jeez. You know what the problem with these lists are? They overgeneralize.
1917 US declares war on Germany - Why? Not like there weren't reasons for it. Granted, the Luisitania incident was crap from both sides, but the German telegram to the Mexicans didn't help much either.
1950s US invades North Korea - Damn straight they did, considering that North Korea covered NEARLY THE WHOLE PENINSULA by that time.

These are two things I KNOW are represented falsely. I haven't bothered to look into the rest. Criticism of the US is something I do often and something praiseworthy, but this thread is America-BASHING.

Everything the US has done in all dishonors, but US invades Honduras does not constitute a war crime. There needs to be some information as to why it was wrong or its just a list of conflicts the US was in.

You've mentioned the multiple conflicts that America has engaged over the past century or so. Some of those conflicts were injustices and fought over false or personal causes, but you failed to mention the other side of the story.

In Official Development Aid, the US gave 19 billion dollars in 2004, 25% of world total. This is a doubling since Bush came into office. The US gives 60% of all world food aid, saving million from hunger every day.

Unlike most nations, the ODA is only a small part of American Aid. In total, Americans (mostly the private sector) give some 60 billion $ each year, again dwarfing any other nation. Scholarships given by American Universities to poor students from the thirds world amount to 1.3 billion dollars, the same as the entire foreign aid given each year by Switzerland!

A poll taken in March of 2004 of some 2000 Iraqis shows that 62% believe their country is heading in the right direction, and only 23% in the wrong direction. Another poll by Mansoor Moaddel shows that 75% of Iraqis believe Iraq is better of after the US removed Saddam Hussein. The world banks figures for Iraqi GDP growth in 2004 were, 51.7%, the highest by far in the world. If this is not the impression the media has given perhaps it is because enlightened intellectuals do not think in quantities, only in anecdotes.

The United States has signed a multitude of international agreements, including the following:

Air Pollution, Air Pollution-Nitrogen Oxides, Antarctic-Environmental Protocol, Antarctic-Marine Living Resources, Antarctic Seals, Antarctic Treaty, Climate Change, Desertification, Endangered Species, Environmental Modification, Marine Dumping, Marine Life Conservation, Ozone Layer Protection, Ship Pollution, Tropical Timber 83, Tropical Timber 94, Wetlands, Whaling
signed, but not ratified: Air Pollution-Persistent Organic Pollutants, Air Pollution-Volatile Organic Compounds, Biodiversity, Climate Change-Kyoto Protocol, Hazardous Wastes

Notice that the Kyoto Protocol for Climate Change is being followed by the US.

Emerigo, as for your list of "atrocities", you cite the website www.albasrah.net, a website that is invariably biased towards the US, so it's arguments are going to be biased and skewed for it's own purpose.

And to answer your original question, America does rock and will continue doing so.

Although very recently, I have to admit we are an embarrassment. With Abu Ghraib and such.

Eeeeh, a little butt-pyramid never hurt anyone. :p Not mention it was nothing compared to what Saddam's regime did to its own people, nor the fact that they're all blowing each other up over there now.

The US Government has a long record of vicious atrocities, and it is indeed one of the most murderous institutions existing at the current time. Quite aside from its military interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq, the global economic order it supports and helps run is responsible for countless millions of deaths, with literally thousands added to the toll every day.

I'd be hard pressed to whole-heartedly disagree with your argument.
I am an American. I am a patriot. I even served in the military However, I am also a realist. I'll assert that America is neither good nor evil, but that America has immense potential for greatness.
For example, I noticed that you didn't include Kosovo. The Kosovars are still, as I understand things, without a stable power source while UN building are illuminated and warm, but they still praise us for our intervention. We gained nothing to speak of from our action in Kosovo but the appreciation of the people.
The greatest problem the American government faces - not to mention the greatest mistake the American people ever committed - is bipartisanism. We desperately need to follow Germany's lead by adopting and empowering a multitude of political parties in order to broaden the scope of representation and number of perspectives present to view a problem.
"The government which governs best governs least." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
My point is, it's not all bad over here. The place needs a lot of work. The government is clearly growing more and more corrupt while hypocritically preaching family values, greed is tainting everything, religious intolerance is becoming the new black plague, and our education system is nascent. We need a drastic change, and we need someone to get through to the rest of us that this change is more than merely imperitive. However, there are brilliant people here, and people who don't seek out death and riches.
I'll say this not to dig for respect and praise, but to avoid any character assault. My combat-related duties in the military did not involve taking a single life, but protecting others from harm. Every mother, every father, every son, every daughter, every brother, and every sister came home safely under my watch, and that is something I can be proud of.

Eeeeh, a little butt-pyramid never hurt anyone. :p Not mention it was nothing compared to what Saddam's regime did to its own people, nor the fact that they're all blowing each other up over there now.I don't see how someone should be allowed to stand up in court and say how him committing rape isn't so bad because other people have committed murder...

I am not surprised to hear this kind of thing comming from a nation with anything to do with Serbia in its name. Just so you know, I was against Bill Clinton's war in Kosovo, but I think it shows that the onlyreason the Serbians did not do worse than the Nazis was they did not have the resources. As Drunk Commies Deleted has said, The US is the most powerful country in the world, so they will make the biggest mistakes in the world.

When America attacks a country, it is because there is either some kind of interest involved (whether the interest is noble or not is usually questionable), someone calls on the US, or there is genuine concern for the people who will be liberated. When other nations attack people and it turns into an atrocity, it is just because they want to, like when you (guessing you are actually Serbian) were murdering tens of thousands of Kosovo people, and displacing close to a million of them.

Sure, no nation is perfect. I'm from New Zealand and while I think we have a good record we still have our share of things not to be proud of.

The problem is that there's a strong perception that most American's don't acknowledge anything but the good side. There are heaps of positive things about the US but it's dangerous to overlook the actions from the list above. The usual American response to criticism seems to be either jealousy or even more bizarrely, that people who don't like the US "hate freedom".

The greatest problem the American government faces - not to mention the greatest mistake the American people ever committed - is bipartisanism. We desperately need to follow Germany's lead by adopting and empowering a multitude of political parties in order to broaden the scope of representation and number of perspectives present to view a problem.Now that is something I agree with wholeheartedly. Awesome post.

A list of wars and small military actions isn't a crime against humanity; especially seeing how intervention in Yugoslavia was an attempt to stop the murderous dictator Slobodan Miolsevic, who wanted to butcher Albainain refugees in the name of his perverse ethnic cleansing.

I agree whole-heartedly, but all this info has been posted however many times before in various threads. It's nothing new, and even if it was, people are set in their ways, you won't make people suddenly turn arround and say "yeah, America sucks!".

Thanks for posting it though, I like your style it made me giggle. The World needs more people to know the truth! *X files Music*

And that was my only aim. I know very well that I, nor anyone else, can't make people suddenly turn around. As I said, I only want the truth to be heard. I have more of this which I am going to write here; not only the actions that America has done abroad but also in its' territory.

I also know that this thread is going to attract many stupid, low intelligence people, patriots and others; but I don't care. My aim is not to fight with anyone, but to show the truth which is usually hidden; especially from americans themselves.

The US Government has a long record of vicious atrocities, and it is indeed one of the most murderous institutions existing at the current time. Quite aside from its military interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq, the global economic order it supports and helps run is responsible for countless millions of deaths, with literally thousands added to the toll every day.
If you dont' see the legitimacy of the Afghanistan invasion you're obviously just racist against Americans. The Taliban sponsored and protected a terrorist group that led a brutal and unprovoked attack on the US civilian population. I think we've gone way too easy on Afghanistan. I also think you're beyond reasoning with, so I guess I'll ignore you from here on out.

2004, January 10- Having executed three of its citizens in the first week of 2004, the US states its plans to establish a mining base on the moon, thus signalling the beginning of US expansionism into space.
Okay, okay, okay, I'm hardly the one to naysay reports of American Imperialism, but - honest to God, I've never heard of a stated plan to mine to Moon. I thought I kept up on this sort of thing fairly well.

Where'd you hear about this one?

The US Government has a long record of vicious atrocities, and it is indeed one of the most murderous institutions existing at the current time. Quite aside from its military interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq, the global economic order it supports and helps run is responsible for countless millions of deaths, with literally thousands added to the toll every day.

Yes, compared to the hundreds of millions who died under Communism. Some 110,000,000 people were killed by those regimes. Capitalism at least gives people the chance to improve themselves when properly implied and combined with democracy, and doesn't reduce them to some Third World hellhole dictatorship like the so-called "Communists" did.

And that was my only aim. I know very well that I, nor anyone else, can't make people suddenly turn around. As I said, I only want the truth to be heard. I have more of this which I am going to write here; not only the actions that America has done abroad but also in its' territory.

I also know that this thread is going to attract many stupid, low intelligence people, patriots and others; but I don't care. My aim is not to fight with anyone, but to show the truth which is usually hidden; especially from americans themselves.You're coming dangerously close to turning me, and I'm by no means an American patriot. This list isn't "truth" it's a slanted view with little background information on what really happened. Without that, there is no basis of calling an invasion a crime.

yes, Kosovo. Kosovo is a story for itself.

Just for the record, USA adminstration during the aggression on Yugoslavia claimed that more then 100 000 albanians were killed by Serbs; but after the war has ended a german group of journalists made a documentary, they spoke with many NATO and American officials and they admitted that the number was much exxaggarated, actually they found out that a total number of 7 500 people were killed or missing including SERBS.

Every time I hear such bullshit propaganda claims of America being evil I just want to give up on being decent and show the world what damage we really are capable of inflicting on our enemies. These threads are so fucking counterproductive. All they do is make Americans angry and xenophobic. Of course the people who post them are flawed individuals who feel weak and intimidated by US economic and military strength, and only seek to demonize America and play the victim card because their own ideologies have proven to be failures in the real world.
Every time time you hear about America being evil it makes you want America to become evil?

Are you actually drunk, DCD? 'Cause that all sounds stupid as all get out, and what's more, I'm pretty sure you know it does, too.

geez anti americans are wierd. I don't go around saying serbia sucks (though it probably does). I understand that you don't agree with some decisions that the us made, maybe don't like americans, envy their wealth but do you have to make such posts? They change nothing

If you dont' see the legitimacy of the Afghanistan invasion you're obviously just racist against Americans. The Taliban sponsored and protected a terrorist group that led a brutal and unprovoked attack on the US civilian population. I think we've gone way too easy on Afghanistan. I also think you're beyond reasoning with, so I guess I'll ignore you from here on out.Damn straight!
I'm happy that Bush finally gave up on his fundamentalist oil buddies and used force to close down the terrorist camps. While that may have not been much of a success (with new terror camps springing up in Pakistan), it was wholly justified. And it wasn't as though the Americans started the "invasion". The legitimate Afghan government's Alliance started a new offensive.
Iraq may not have been linked to 9/11, but anyone denying Afghanistan was is seriously biased. There's a reason there were no vetos against a NATO mission in Afghanistan while there were vetos for Iraq.

yes, Kosovo. Kosovo is a story for itself.

Just for the record, USA adminstration during the aggression on Yugoslavia claimed that more then 100 000 albanians were killed by Serbs; but after the war has ended a german group of journalists made a documentary, they spoke with many NATO and American officials and they admitted that the number was much exxaggarated, actually they found out that a total number of 7 500 people were killed or missing including SERBS.I guess only 7,500 people is acceptable then.

And that was my only aim. I know very well that I, nor anyone else, can't make people suddenly turn around. As I said, I only want the truth to be heard. I have more of this which I am going to write here; not only the actions that America has done abroad but also in its' territory.

I also know that this thread is going to attract many stupid, low intelligence people, patriots and others; but I don't care. My aim is not to fight with anyone, but to show the truth which is usually hidden; especially from americans themselves.
If you wanted to tell the truth you wouldn't have posted lists of conflicts that American has been involved with without posting the reasons for those conflicts. Some of them were quite justified, like when we bombed your people in order to prevent them from commiting genocide.

You don't want to tell the truth, you want to smear America's reputation. At least be a man and admit it.

Some of them were quite justified, like when we bombed your people [Serbia] in order to prevent them from commiting genocide.
Not to mention that it was a bloody SERBIAN who started WWI by assasinating Franz Ferdinand, which in turn caused HELL for the 20th century

geez anti americans are wierd. I don't go around saying serbia sucks (though it probably does). I understand that you don't agree with some decisions that the us made, maybe don't like americans, envy their wealth but do you have to make such posts? They change nothing

They change nothing, perhaps. I don't go around saying america sucks because I am envious or other, I am writing those just to tell the people the truth. I have closely tracked what CNN was telling during NATO aggression on Serbia, most of the things were lies. I don't justify many of Serbia's actions, nor am I speaking about Serbia. The problem is that people, mostly from USA are uninformed of truth. They believe only what CNN and White House tells them. During Milosevic's trial one american reporter admitted that his papers (I don't remember which) forged photos of allegable Serbian concentration camps in Bosnia, he admited that they took old WW II photos and made them look like those were Serbian camps. Is that ok? is that how america defends freedom and justice?

Okay, okay, okay, I'm hardly the one to naysay reports of American Imperialism, but - honest to God, I've never heard of a stated plan to mine to Moon. I thought I kept up on this sort of thing fairly well.

Where'd you hear about this one?
Yes, because even if the moon were made of solid platinum mining it would be too expensive, and everyone knows Americans like to waste huge sums of money for nothing.

yes, america rocks. it sinks just like one.

During Milosevic's trial one american reporter admitted that his papers (I don't remember which) forged photos of allegable Serbian concentration camps in Bosnia, he admited that they took old WW II photos and made them look like those were Serbian camps. Is that ok? is that how america defends freedom and justice?

Source. Now.

Every time time you hear about America being evil it makes you want America to become evil?

Are you actually drunk, DCD? 'Cause that all sounds stupid as all get out, and what's more, I'm pretty sure you know it does, too.
It makes me feel like the US is seen as a criminal and nothing we can do will change that, so we might as well just use our military force to get whatever we want and say "fuck the rest of the world".

It's an emotional reaction, not a well thought out plan.

i admire your courage to tell the facts to this widely american website
but someone has to tell the truth right :)

and america is crapy and im not a foreigner i live in america
well will anyone try and stop americas blood shed

you also forgot to mention the amount of people in their own country that america kills

Not to mention that it was a bloody SERBIAN who started WWI by assasinating Franz Ferdinand, which in turn caused HELL for the 20th century

Wow, so I presume that if George Bushes' country wanted to occupy Your country you'd go along.

Not to mention that it was a bloody SERBIAN who started WWI by assasinating Franz Ferdinand, which in turn caused HELL for the 20th centurySaying that is about as misguided as saying US invades Honduras is a war crime. It "sparked" it off. Germany declaring war on Russia is what "started" WWI.
And neither of those statements do the conflict any credit, because they completely ignore the "causes" of the war.

Source. Now.

Look up the trial during first months of interrogation. I can't remember which papers those wore but I assure you that I am not liaing. Even TV showed that confession.

-Rolls Eyes- America kicks total ass,if your against it.
Move out,we dont want you here.

Now that is something I agree with wholeheartedly. Awesome post.
Danke!

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I don't hate american people, I don't condemn american people as a whole nation that is evil. No, there are many good people in america, many, many good people. But nazi germany also had many good people, and do you remember what happened?

George Bush always says "either you're with us or against us". That's black and white interpretation of the world. The world is grey.

I'll ask a couple of questions regarding your list.
...

1)China 1945-46.
2)Korea 1950-53.
3)China 1950-53.
4)Guatemala 1954.
5)Indonesia 1958.
6)Cuba 1959-60.
7)Guatemala 1960.
8)Kongo 1964.
9)Peru 1965.
...
Numbering mine

1) How did the US manage to attack China in 1945-1946?

2) The same for Korea in 1950... there was no such country then, IIRC.

3) So McArthur did persuade Truman to bomb China, after all?

4) A US-backed military coup. How it was an American attack upon Guatemala?

5) The US shipped some arms to anti-Sukarno groups, that's all.

6) Maybe 1961?

7) Attack upon Guatemala in 1960? Again? Poor Guatemala...

8) The Congo in 1964... Dunno--tell me what happened.

9) Same as 8)

If you dont' see the legitimacy of the Afghanistan invasion you're obviously just racist against Americans. The Taliban sponsored and protected a terrorist group that led a brutal and unprovoked attack on the US civilian population. I think we've gone way too easy on Afghanistan. I also think you're beyond reasoning with, so I guess I'll ignore you from here on out.

I am an American. I do not believe I hate myself.

Some level of military intervention in Afghanistan was probably necessary, and would have been justified. Demanding that the Taliban hand over Osama Bin Laden without first demonstrating that he was indeed behind the attacks, proceeding to overthrow the regime, kill thousands of people, destabilize the country, and then ignore its problems as a war of aggression is pursued against Iraq was NOT necessary, and was in fact disgustingly immoral and unjust.

The terrorist Luis Posada is being protected by the US, though Venezuela has demanded that he be extradited. Would you support Venezuela and Cuba following the American example?

If Ricardo Lagos of Chile demanded that Bush hand over Henry Kissinger for his participation in the takeover of the murderous dictator Augusto Pinochet, would you support a Chilean invasion of the United States?

Or if Nicaragua wanted John Negroponte? Or if any one of the numerous countries that have suffered from US indiscriminate violence called for the officials responsible to be handed over?

I most certainly would not.

They believe only what CNN and White House tells them. Time to inform you. CNN is currently regarded as one of the "liberal" tv stations. There are WORSE stations than CNN, and chances are, you don't even get CNN, you get CNN international, like I do, which isn't even more liberal.
Is that ok? is that how america defends freedom and justice?There's much better ways of bringing THAT point across than posting a list of American atrocities that don't have any proper backing. It pushes the uninformed into a corner and makes it harder for real criticism to get through to them. And frankly, it pisses me off to be seen as an America-Basher everytime I voice my criticism because people like you post weak arguements like that.

EDIT: Here, this is the kinda crap I get to deal with because of your post:
-Rolls Eyes- America kicks total ass,if your against it.
Move out,we dont want you here.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I don't hate american people, I don't condemn american people as a whole nation that is evil. No, there are many good people in america, many, many good people. But nazi germany also had many good people, and do you remember what happened?

George Bush always says "either you're with us or against us". That's black and white interpretation of the world. The world is grey.
I think you made yourself very clear when you listed legitimate military actions to protect people as war crimes. Now I think you're just trying to hide your bigotry.

I'll ask a couple of questions regarding your list.

Numbering mine

1) How did the US manage to attack China in 1945-1946?

2) The same for Korea in 1950... there was no such country then, IIRC.

3) So McArthur did persuade Truman to bomb China, after all?

4) A US-backed military coup. How it was an American attack upon Guatemala?

5) The US shipped some arms to anti-Sukarno groups, that's all.

6) Maybe 1961?

7) Attack upon Guatemala in 1960? Again? Poor Guatemala...

8) The Congo in 1964... Dunno--tell me what happened.

9) Same as 8)


I apologize for some of those entries. You are right, not all of them were open military aggressions.

I'll ask a couple of questions regarding your list.

Numbering mine

1) How did the US manage to attack China in 1945-1946?

2) The same for Korea in 1950... there was no such country then, IIRC.

3) So McArthur did persuade Truman to bomb China, after all?

4) A US-backed military coup. How it was an American attack upon Guatemala?

5) The US shipped some arms to anti-Sukarno groups, that's all.

6) Maybe 1961?

7) Attack upon Guatemala in 1960? Again? Poor Guatemala...

8) The Congo in 1964... Dunno--tell me what happened.

9) Same as 8)
Weren't we helping to fight the Japanese in China in the forties? Weren't we in the process of liberating that nation?

Also, my father was in the Belgian Congo in the sixties as a mercenary. He was an Italian citizen fighting for the Belgians. In none of the stories he told me did he ever mention US involvement.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I don't hate american people, I don't condemn american people as a whole nation that is evil. No, there are many good people in america, many, many good people. But nazi germany also had many good people, and do you remember what happened?

George Bush always says "either you're with us or against us". That's black and white interpretation of the world. The world is grey.

There is a huge difference between the United States and Nazi Germany; you can't even begin to equivocate them. As far as I know, the US has not embarked on a systematic plan to eradicate a particular race, religion, sexual orientation, culture, or handicap at the hands of an elite military branch, and is not under the command of a dictator who came to power via scapegoating and hyperpatriotism.

The world is black, and white, with shades of gray. There are good, there are bad, and there are people in between. I don't agree with Bush on those kinds of statements either, but I also don't believe in total moral relativism.

Yes, compared to the hundreds of millions who died under Communism. Some 110,000,000 people were killed by those regimes. Capitalism at least gives people the chance to improve themselves when properly implied and combined with democracy, and doesn't reduce them to some Third World hellhole dictatorship like the so-called "Communists" did.

"Communism" as practiced by Maoist China and Stalinist Russia had precisely the same problem as capitalism: the undemocratic control of central societal institutions. This kind of organization results in oppression and death, because it puts the interests of the few before the interests of the many.

The global economic order set up by the ruling powers is built along similar lines, with similar results.

I’d like everyone here to read this, just to get the full picture of the USA (a country which, according to some of you, rocks)

I’ll try to be brief. After the WW II, America is the country that has committed the greatest number of crimes against mankind. Here is the list of all countries that have been attacked by America:

China 1945-46.
Korea 1950-53.
China 1950-53.
Guatemala 1954.
Indonesia 1958.
Cuba 1959-60.
Guatemala 1960.
Kongo 1964.
Peru 1965.
Laos 1964-73.
Vietnam 1961-73.
Kambodia 1969-70.
Guatemala 1967-69.
Grenada 1983.
Lebanon 1984.
Libia 1986.
El Salvador 1980s
Nikaragua 1980s
Panama 1989.
Sudan 1998.
Afghanistan 1998.
Yugoslavia 1999.
Iraq 1991-2003.

Only in these cruel aggression millions of civilians lost their lives; And all of that because America was “defending freedom.” You know, the funny thing is that only America is allowed, probably by their god, to bomb other countries to defend freedom, while when someone else does that, it is considered a war crime. Great country that America is, right?

Another funny thing about America is this latest war on terrorism. Now, let one thing be clear, I certainly don’t support terrorism and I am against any violence. America is, by their own words, a leader in the world’s fight against terrorism. That sounds good, right? But have you ever asked yourself how were those terrorist organizations found? Or even better, who supported them?? The answer is, my dear America lovers, AMERICA. Let’s take Talibans for instance. While they were fighting soviets, they were good, America supported them every way it could. America was giving them weapons, was training their members, even Osama Bin Laden himself was trained by the CIA. But no, back then, while they were against soviets, they weren’t terrorists, and now when they turned against USA, now they are.

Or let’s take Iraq for instance, you’re going to love this. In 1963 when it became possible to nationalize Iraq Petroleum Company, CIA brought Ba’ath party to power, you’re guessing whose party that was – YES, Saddam Hussein’s party. During his invasion on Iran, guess who gave him his support – AMERICA. Back than, many civil right groups were telling the USA to stop supporting Saddam because he was using nerve gas against Iranian soldiers and Kurds, but back then, Saddam was their friend, so his crimes were not actually crimes because he was a friend of the USA and USA does not commit crimes. Many people think that Al Quaida’s camps were the main source of terrorists, but that’s not true. There is a military base in Georgia, called Fort Benning. Only in this base, America trained around 60 000 Latin American soldiers, policemen and others; what is so bad about that you might wonder? 2/3 of the officers who committed terrible crimes in El Salvador were trained there. Their “products” from Fort Benning committed horrible crimes in Chile, Grenada. Guatemala and Panama, and guess what? America supported them in all of their actions.

William Blum, an ex State Department officer, who is now a big criticizer of the USA said that after the WWII America bombed 23 countries, The largest intervention in Vietnam took away 58 000 American lives and around 4 000 000 (yes, that’s millions) of Vietnamese lives. The uprising in Indonesia in 1965-68 was also supported by America – result: over a million of dead. There is another interesting event that newspapers hardly ever mentioned – a holocaust in Cambodia in 1969-1970; American bombing killed over 600 000 settlers and opened a road to savage actions by Red Kmers. Laos, a nearby country to Cambodia still contains thousands of cluster bombs that were tested there by America still kill thousands of people a year. But why would America care, I mean, after all they are still among countries that never adopted international agreement that forbids using mines, also agreement that forbids using bio or chemical weapons, they never accepted the international court of justice, Children rights convention, Kyoto protocol and more.

A Congress investigation in 1992 discovered that Bush senior and his advisers had ordered a cover up of illegal weapons shipments to Iraq via other countries. The Congress library still has papers where it’s shown that America supplied Iraq with chemical weapons (Antrax virus developed in Maryland), I guess it’s business first for America, as long as their clients kill other non Americans.

And this is only a small part.

Now do you still think that America rocks?

Wow! Even more so then before I read this topic!

I am an American. I do not believe I hate myself.

Some level of military intervention in Afghanistan was probably necessary, and would have been justified. Demanding that the Taliban hand over Osama Bin Laden without first demonstrating that he was indeed behind the attacks, proceeding to overthrow the regime, kill thousands of people, destabilize the country, and then ignore its problems as a war of aggression is pursued against Iraq was NOT necessary, and was in fact disgustingly immoral and unjust.

The terrorist Luis Posada is being protected by the US, though Venezuela has demanded that he be extradited. Would you support Venezuela and Cuba following the American example?

If Ricardo Lagos of Chile demanded that Bush hand over Henry Kissinger for his participation in the takeover of the murderous dictator Augusto Pinochet, would you support a Chilean invasion of the United States?

Or if Nicaragua wanted John Negroponte? Or if any one of the numerous countries that have suffered from US indiscriminate violence called for the officials responsible to be handed over?

I most certainly would not.
There was plenty of proof that Al Quaeda commited the 9/11 attack among many others against US targets here at home and abroad. The taliban didn't just ask for proof, they rejected any proof offered. In addition to that, Al Quaeda was a part of the Taliban's military, like the foreign legion is to France. As such it was an attack BY Afghanistan against the US using it's elite foreign legion.

"Communism" as practiced by Maoist China and Stalinist Russia had precisely the same problem as capitalism: the undemocratic control of central societal institutions. This kind of organization results in oppression and death, because it puts the interests of the few before the interests of the many.

The global economic order set up by the ruling powers is built along similar lines, with similar results.

That's why democracy is vital to capitalism; otherwise, there is no control. China is an example of capitalism out of control; they can't go back to Communism, they can't loosen up their regime without it disappearing, and they can't control their economic growth. The end result is economic collapse and suffering for their people.

That's why laws and regulations are needed, to prevent companies from abusing their influence while still allowing the possibility of everyone to enjoy economic growth and the opportunity to improve themselves. Capitalism works as long as it is regulated.

A UN without America?

Three capital cities have been bombed recently - Baghdad, Kabul and Belgrade - in a ten-year period, with the nations responsible, the US and UK, evincing no discernible signs of guilt. Twenty-three nations have been bombed by the US since WW2, from Japan in 1945 to Afghanistan in '99 (see below) - that's one nation per three years. That's fourteen percent of all UN member-states. Not one of these attacks had a shred of legality under international law, each was a criminal act. Over that same period, thrice that number of nations were forcibly intervened-upon by the US - a sequence well described in William Blum's Rogue State. Such interventions are a hope-killing experience for the nations concerned (1). Any undue aspiration towards self-realisation by a nation-state over this period, has met with US intervention, covert or overt. That's one-third of UN member-states!

As to why this process is happening, let's have a quote. 'Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible; and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to facilitate our exploitation of resources.' (Ramsay Clark, formerly US Attorney General) Nations of the world have had to view their precious resources as mere tributaries that flow towards America (2).

Last year the Bush administration issued its blueprint for global domination and ceaseless military intervention, entitled 'The National Security Strategy of the United States' (Sept. 2002), assigning to America the right to attack any nation, any time, any where, with any weapons system it chose, unencumbered by international treaties. The NPT, CTBT, BWC and Landmine Convention have all been thrown out by the Bush administration, along with the ICC and Khyoto Treaty on Global Warming. America's bellicose new unilateralism is radically opposed to the seeking of multilateral accords, for which the UN exists (3).

The US, and to a lesser extent Britain and Israel, have been voting massively against UN resolutions on peace and disarmament for the past thirty years (4). Can this really continue? The UN needs to be composed of nations which agree with its Charter, namely that 'Member States shall refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, and that they undertake to 'settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered'. We are fortunate that such fine words have been composed and signed up to, by most nations of the world, and we only need now to affirm that their literal meaning be adhered to, by member states.

Article 51 of the UN Charter grants the right to inherent or collective self-defence only if an armed attack occurs against a member of the UN. The two (and only two!) conditions spelt out by the Charter are, firstly that force may only be used after an armed attack, and secondly only until the Security Council takes the necessary action. 'Pre-emptive self-defence' is a violation of the Charter and nothing else (5).

For these reasons, the nations of the world need to take steps towards expelling America from the UN (6). America comprises only 4% of the world's population, and we should avoid believing that it is somehow indispensable, or all-powerful. The League of Nations was the first incarnation of a world government, and was deemed to be inadequate because it excluded America. Let us now affirm, that the UN needs to be composed solely of nations that do actually believe in the UN Charter (7). A World government, if it is to inspire the peoples of the world with hope, must be seen for example to oppose CIA infiltration of nations whose governments have not requested them; and as taking steps towards the removal of US military bases, from countries where a majority of the populace does not desire them; and as opposing plans to bomb further nations by America.

Having Germany replace America in the UN's Security Council, for example, would be a simple way of managing the transition that is now required. A new home for the UN would be found, far from New York. The present undue projection of US power started because the postwar nations of Europe were unable to trust each other, and so requested a US nuclear 'Umbrella'. The too-mighty alliance of NATO needs now to dissolve, with the nations of Europe thanking Uncle Sam, and asking him to go home. At present the US can and does readily summon European nations into its war-without-end geopolitics through the corridors of NATO. Bosnia could have been solved quite sensibly and sensitively if the nations of Europe had been at liberty to sort it out. Britain has a central role in all of this.

To begin the process, let's see the UN starting an ongoing debate among the 60-odd nations which have had their governments forcibly evicted by US intervention and/or assassination. What was it like for you? Engraved upon its wall, let's see the list of 23 nations bombed since WW2, as a terrible memory of how one nation violated so greatly, the agreed axioms of non-violence. Let's see motions debated, requesting that the US desist from its habit of bombing other nations. Let's hear a motion arguing that the two nations which go to war most often, the UK and US, being the two nations which are the world's primary arms exporters, and the two nations which normally vote against UN motions advocating peace, harmony and disarmament - that these two nations are the ones having the highest proportion of their own citizens behind bars. It would be beneficial for these two 'predator' nations to be on the receiving end of such a UN General Assembly discussion!

Let's make, at the start of a new millennium, the affirmation that civilised nations on earth are those which share together a sacred concept, the immunity of non-combatant civilians - i.e., those which are not prepared to threaten women and children in warfare. As weapons systems grow more deadly, it becomes more essential that a nascent world government should affirm this issue as central, as in fact crucial for the continuation of civilized life. This would tend to imply that the nuclear powers be excluded from the holding of privileged positions, these being weapons-systems that cannot in the nature of things make such a distinction.

At Nurenberg, no-one prosecuted city bombers, because both sides had been doing it. Like some horrific mental virus, the US/UK have been continuing doing this, and we all know the wretched reason why: troops too timid to engage with a military enemy, fly above anti-aircraft range where the only targets visible are civilian. There now exists an international criminal court (ICC), and in the course of time the UN will no doubt insist that such practices fall within its remit. On October 10th 2001 a full Afghani mosque was bombed, during prayers. Some hours later, while the bodies were being pulled out, it was re-bombed (8). Is there much point in the UN continuing while such deliberate targeting of civilians takes place, by its most powerful member?

In the long-term, I suggest that a reformed UN should request that US military power, at present the largest known in planet earth's recorded history, be transmuted into an endeavour to reach Mars, and that the US be entrusted with maintaining StarPeace, a non-militarised outer space. This may seem absurd, like putting a shark in charge of the swimming pool, but I merely offer it by way of conjecture. Its army should be in charge of clearing up the landmines, there being presently one per sixty inhabitants of Earth now in place, more from the US than anywhere else. A new United Nations would want to insist that the USA must go for some decent period, say ten years, without once bombing another nation, with not a single illicit intervention to alter a foreign government, before it can again be readmitted to the community of civilized nations, by re-joining the UN. America needs to be expelled from the UN until such time as it is prepared to submit to the rule of international law, as would be signalled by its readiness to accept the jurisdiction of the ICC.

We emerge into the new millennium where a new world government is the only hope for the rescuing of humanity. Britain has never really believed this hitherto, depending instead upon NATO. But now the time has come for the 'axis of evil' US/UK to be sundered and for a different stage in history to begin.

Coming soon to a country near you…

Nations bombed by the US since WW2

Japan 1945
China 1945, 50
Korea 1950
Guatemala 1954, 1960,
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959
Vietnam 1961
Congo 1964
Laos 1964
Peru 1965
Cambodia 1969
Lebanon 1983
Grenada 1983
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991
Somalia 1993
Bosnia 1995
Sudan 1998
Former Jugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan 2001

References
1. William Blum, 'Rogue State, a guide to the world's only Superpower', 2002, Ch.17.

2. John Pilger, 'New Rulers of the World', 2002 p.113.

3. www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/EC2002.htm - Denis Halliday's Erskine Childs Memorial Lecture.

4 www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/votes.htm - UN votes against peace & disarmament.

5. http://deoxy.org.wc/wc-un.htm the UN Charter

6. Websites about the US quitting the UN are solely American, eg www.getusout.org/military

7. eg, Geoff Simons, 'Targeting Iraq' Ch.5, 'Subverting the United Nations,' for US undermining of the UN.

8. http://www.j-n-v.org/ARROW_aw_briefings/ARROW_briefing011.htm for Jalalabad mosque bombing.

Weren't we helping to fight the Japanese in China in the forties? Weren't we in the process of liberating that nation?
Definitely not in 1946... :confused: I don't know what the America-bashers had in mind when compliling the list.

Also, my father was in the Belgian Congo in the sixties as a mercenary. He was an Italian citizen fighting for the Belgians. In none of the stories he told me did he ever mention US involvement.
My guess is--some Marines were sent to protect the American citizens in the Congo, or something like that...

I agree that America does not rock, as nations that commit warcrimes never do. Defending Freedom? They just probably say that to have an excuse for being so evil. F*** YOU GEORGE BUSH :upyours: !

There was plenty of proof that Al Quaeda commited the 9/11 attack among many others against US targets here at home and abroad. The taliban didn't just ask for proof, they rejected any proof offered. In addition to that, Al Quaeda was a part of the Taliban's military, like the foreign legion is to France. As such it was an attack BY Afghanistan against the US using it's elite foreign legion.

I did say that there was no proof. I said that the United States did not care to offer any.

I would still like an answer to my other questions.

Well, Serbian Baranja, I recently brushed up on Serbian history and your country's record certainly isn't spotless.

You bitch because NATO dropped bombs on you during Miloshevic's administration, but you fail to mention that Serbia had occupied Kosovo (one of the "atrocities" that you call America out for).

The history of Serbia is absolutely packed with assassinations of leaders. A few victims were foreign leaders, but most were military hits on your own leaders. That tells me that what Serbia lacks in political competence it makes up for in useless violence.

And can someone explain exactly how Serbia and Montenegro operate? That union baffles me at the least.

2004, January 10- Having executed three of its citizens in the first week of 2004, the US states its plans to establish a mining base on the moon, thus signalling the beginning of US expansionism into space.

What does that have to do with America's atrocities?
If you're protesting the use of the death penalty, why relate it to establishing a moon base?

America no longer rocks. We've been taken over by country/western, dipshit, Toby KKKeith, jerk-off, twangy, flag wavers. And that does indeed suck. I want my rock-n-roll back! ;)

Definitely not in 1946... :confused: I don't know what the America-bashers had in mind when compliling the list.

It was an intervention against the Communists in alliance with the Nationalists.

William Blum's book Killing Hope describes it in some detail, as well as most of the other interventions mentioned in this thread.

Time to inform you. CNN is currently regarded as one of the "liberal" tv stations. There are WORSE stations than CNN, and chances are, you don't even get CNN, you get CNN international, like I do, which isn't even more liberal.
There's much better ways of bringing THAT point across than posting a list of American atrocities that don't have any proper backing. It pushes the uninformed into a corner and makes it harder for real criticism to get through to them. And frankly, it pisses me off to be seen as an America-Basher everytime I voice my criticism because people like you post weak arguements like that.

EDIT: Here, this is the kinda crap I get to deal with because of your post:
Well said.

...

You bitch because NATO dropped bombs on you during Miloshevic's administration, but you fail to mention that Serbia had occupied Kosovo (one of the "atrocities" that you call America out for).
...
Kosovo was recognized as a part of Serbia by the Treaty of London in 1913.

The most powerfull nation in the world will almost invariably make bigger mistakes, but it will also do more good than weaker nations.

Errm, what is this obsession that the Americans have that they are the best?
They certainly are not the most powerful except by their own rather twisted idea.

Well, Serbian Baranja, I recently brushed up on Serbian history and your country's record certainly isn't spotless.

You bitch because NATO dropped bombs on you during Miloshevic's administration, but you fail to mention that Serbia had occupied Kosovo (one of the "atrocities" that you call America out for).

The history of Serbia is absolutely packed with assassinations of leaders. A few victims were foreign leaders, but most were military hits on your own leaders. That tells me that what Serbia lacks in political competence it makes up for in useless violence.

And can someone explain exactly how Serbia and Montenegro operate? That union baffles me at the least.



What does that have to do with America's atrocities?
If you're protesting the use of the death penalty, why relate it to establishing a moon base?

Occupied Kosovo??? HA HA HA HA HA
Please, don't make me laugh. If you took enough effort you'd have seen that Kosovo has been part of Serbia since 7th Century, a long before america was even disovered. And I assume that if Mexicans become majority in texas and they proclaim independence and join Mexico you'd be all pro.

It was an intervention against the Communists in alliance with the Nationalists.

William Blum's book Killing Hope describes it in some detail, as well as most of the other interventions mentioned in this thread.
This cannot be construed as an attack upon China. In 1946 the Nationalists were China's government, the Communists were rebels.

I haven't updated this list for yonks. For more atrocities visit albasrah.net

1608-1987- In between these years, the US and earlier colonies executed an estimated 14 634 of its citizens.
1775- American troops invade Quebec, Canada, during the American Revolution, but are repulsed.
1800, June- The US hangs 35 Black rights campaigners in Virginia.
1801- US freebooters invade the northern territories of New Spain (Mexico).
1806- US troops invade Mexico near the headwaters of the Rio Grande, but are repulsed.
1814- US troops massacre 800 Creek Indians.
1817-19- US troops invade the New Spanish territory of Florida and occupy the east of it.
1822, June- The US executes Black rights campaigner Denmark Vesey and a small number of his comrades in Charleston.
1831- US ships blockade Argentine coasts in an attempt to seize the Malvinas archipelago.
1831, August- The US hangs 16 Black rights campaigners in Jerusalem, Virginia.
1832- The US attempts to annex Jamaica to allow slave labour on the island to continue.
1833- US troops invade Argentina.
1835- US troops invade and occupy parts of Peru.
1846- The US invades Mexico and annexes one million square miles of territory.
1847- US troops invade Nicaragua and occupy the port of San Juan del Norte.
1848- After its brutal military victory over Mexico, the US strips Mexico of almost half of its territories, including New Mexico, California and the rest of Texas.
1851- The governor of California calls for the extermination of all native American Indians in California.
1852- US troops invade Argentina again.
1853- US naval commander Admiral Perry arrives with warships off the coast of Japan, and demands that Japan open its ports to US commodities and merchants.
1854- US warships bombard the Nicaraguan port of San Juan del Norte, in reprisal against supposed offences against a US diplomat.
1855- A US warship attacks Paraguay to force the Paraguayan government to open Paraguayan rivers for ?free navigation?.
1855- US troops invade Paraguay.
1856- The US supports a military takeover in Nicaragua led by a US freebooter, William Walker, who proclaims himself the president of Nicaragua and has slavery restored.
1859- US ships blockade Paraguay.
1861, March 4- The US declares war on the Confederate States of America.
1861, July 21- US and Confederate forces attack one another at near Bull Run, Virginia. The US kills 2000 confederate troops.
1862, September 14- US and Confederate forces clash in Maryland. The US kills 27 000 Confederates.
1863, July- US and Confederate forces clash with a total of 44 000 killed. 23 000 of the killed were US troops.
1865- US troops invade Panama.
1866- The US annexes the Mexican territories of El Chamizal.
1867-71- The US attempts to annex the Dominican Republic, but fails.
1882- US naval forces invade Korea.
1885- US troops invade Panama.
1886, May 3- Chicago policemen open fire on a peaceful worker?s protest, killing 4.
1890- The US sends troops into Buenos Aiers, Argentina, to protect US interests.
1890, December 29- US troops massacre 200-300 Sioux Dakotan Indians at Wounded Knee, South Dakota. Since 1608, tens of millions of Native Americans and African people who had been taken from their families to be slaves in the US have been killed.
1890-1980- Over 90 years, over 5000 African-Americans were lynched legally. During the 1890s alone, over 1000 are hanged.
1891- US naval forces blockade the ports of Haiti and in an attempt to force the Haitian government to surrender Mole de Saint Nicholas Bay.
1891- US marines clash with nationalist rebels in Chile.
1891- US troops successfully put down a worker?s revolt on the US claimed Navassa Island.
1893(?)- The US overthrows the Hawaiian government and annexes Hawaii.
1894- US troops repress a railway workers? strike in Chicago, killing 34.
1894- The US invades Nicaragua.
1894-96- US troops invade Brazil.
1895- The US invades Colombia.
1896- The US invades the Nicaraguan port of Corinto.
1898- The US declares war on Spain and invades Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philippines. From 1899 to 1902, 125 000 US troops subdue Philippine independence fighters. Over 16 000 Filipino troops and an estimated 200 000 to 600 000 Filipino civilians were killed.
1898- US troops attack Chippewa Indians at Leech Lake, Minnesota.
1899- The US manipulates the struggle for the throne in Samoa in order to gain an upper hand in the region.
1899- US troops invade Nicaragua and occupy the port of San Juan del Norte again for a month.
1900- The US sends troops to China to join the multinational western forces suppressing the 1898-1900 Boxer Rebellion.
1900- The US declares Puerto Rico a part of the USA against the will of the people living there.
1901- US troops brutally put down a Creek Indian revolt in Okalahoma.
1902- The US establishes naval bases in Cuba.
1903- The US invades Colombia, creating a new state of Panama, backed by the US navy.
1903- The US invades Honduras.
1905- The US invades the Dominican Republic.
1905- The US invades Costa Rica.
1906- The US invades Cuba and occupies it until 1909 in order to prevent a candidate opposed to the US getting voted into office.
1907- The US invades Nicaragua and Honduras.
1908- The US intervenes with the elections in Panama.
1909- The US invades Nicaragua and occupies it until 1925.
1912- The US invades China to suppress a rebellion and occupies it until 1938.
1912- US troops intervene in Panama to rig the presidential elections.
1912- The US invades Honduras again.
1914- The US invades Mexico again.
1914- US troops plunder the gold reserves of Puerto Cortes.
1914- US troops occupy Veracruz, Mexico.
1915, July 28- Having sent warships into Haitian harbours 20 times between 1850 to 1915, the US invades Haiti in order to prevent anti-US politician and occupies it until 1934.
1916- The US invades Mexico for the third time.
1917-18- The US declares war on Germany.
1917- The US invades Cuba again and occupies it until 1922.
1917- The US invades Costa Rica again.
1917- The US executes 62 African-American soldiers who rioted against white harassment in Houston, Texas.
1918- The US invades the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic along with 13 other countries in an attempt to suppress the new worker's state. So begins the War on Communism that shall last until 1991.
1918-20- The US invades Mexico, Panama, Honduras and Guatemala.
1919- The US intervenes in Yugoslavia on behalf of the Greeks against Serbs in Dalmatia.
1920- The US invades Guatemala to overthrow its government.
1920-21- The US bombs striking mine workers in West Virginia.
1922- The US ignores the Soviet Union?s proposal for complete international disarmament.
1922- US troops fight nationalists in Turkey.
1924-25- The US intervenes in the elections in Honduras.
1925- US troops suppress a general strike in Panama.
1926- The US sends 25 000 marines to invade Nicaragua again to make sure that the US puppet dictator Adolfo Diaz would be overthrown by Liberal rebellions, occupying it until 1933.
1927- The US ignores the Soviet Union?s second proposal for complete international disarmament.
1931- The US invades Guatemala again.
1932- The US sends warships to suppress a revolt in El Salvador.
1933- The US threatens Cuba with invasion.
1938- The US Naval Bill signals construction of the world's largest navy.
1942-45- The US bombs Japan. 672 000 Japanese people are killed in the bombings. The US also bombs France and Germany, killing over 500 000 Germans and thousands of French people.
1943- The US bombs Romania.
1943- US troops brutally put down an African-American revolution in Detroit, Michigan.
1943- The US bombs Hamburg in Germany, killing 50 000.
1945- The US bombs Dresden, Germany, killing 180 000 people.
1945- With the defeat of the German Nazis, the US employs a number of former Nazis, including Reinhard Gehlen, who was the chief of the Nazi anti-soviet intelligence unit and became the head of West Germany?s intel under the US and Klaus Barbie, the ?butcher of Lyon? who was hired by the US and later served as a liaison between the US and a number of Latin American drug lords.
1945- The US drops nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan, killing over 240 000 altogether.
1945-49- The US bombs and invades China with over 113 000 troops and 600 aeroplanes.
1946- The US threatens the USSR with nuclear war after soviets refuse to surrender southern Azerbaijan to US ally Iran. The USSR had no nuclear weapons at this stage.
1946- US warships shell Yugoslav coastal towns after a US plane was shot down over Yugoslavia. They then threaten Yugoslavia with nuclear annihilation.
1946-49- The US and England bomb and invade Greece with 5000 troops and 200 aeroplanes in order to prevent the revolution taking place there from overthrowing the US backed fascist government.
1947- The US flies bombers carrying nuclear weapons over Uruguay in order to intimidate the leftist government there.
1947- The US invades Paraguay.
1947-48- The US sends troops into the Philippines to destroy a people?s revolution there.
1948-present- The US supports Israel, which has massacred thousands of Palestinian civilians. During the Jewish takeover, over 700 000 Palestinians were driven from their homes.
1948- The US threatens nuclear war with the USSR again over East Germany.
1949- The CIA backs a military coup deposing the elected government of Syria.
1949- The US oversees the executions of hundreds of innocent South Korean civilians who happened to be communist or communist sympathetic.
1949-61- The CIA supplies arms to Chinese Nationalists in Burma.
1950-53- The US invades North Korea with over 350 000 troops, 1000 tanks, 1600 warplanes and 300 warships. From 1950-53, the US fights the Korean War and bombs China and Korea, using terrible weapons such as napalm, bacteriological and chemical weapons and twice threatened to use nuclear weapons. Over 2 500 000 North Korean and Chinese people are killed. One of the worst massacres committed by the US occurred at the village of Nogun-Ri, where all 400 villagers, including children and elderly, were machine-gunned to death by US troops. During the war, the US adopted a ?scorched earth? policy and used the USAF to napalm irrigation dams and facilities that provided 75% of North Korea?s food production. When German Nazis did this in WWII to smaller facilities it was considered a war crime. There is still mass-starvation in North Korea as a result of the napalm attacks.
1950- The US crushes a rebellion in Puerto Rico.
1951-54- The CIA supplies weapons to agents in China.
1952- The US begins H-bomb tests on the Alaskan island of Bikini Atoll. The inhabitants were forcibly removed from their homes in order to begin the tests.
1953- The CIA backs a military coup deposing the democratically elected government of Iran, which had begun nationalising Western companies. Installs the Shah instead, who begins brutal repressions of all opposition.
1953- US troops invade Nicaragua.
1954- The US bombs Guatemala and overthrows its government in order to prevent the Guatemalan government from nationalising the United Fruit company.
1954- The US offers nuclear weapons to the French to destroy the communist revolution in Vietnam. Politely refused.
1956- The US supports the Anglo-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt in retaliation against Egyptian president Nasser?s nationalisation of the Suez Canal and alliance with the Soviet Union. The US threatens nuclear war with the USSR if soviet troops intervene.
1956- The US assists fascists in Hungary to assassinate prominent socialists.
1958- The US invades Lebanon with 14 000 marines.
1958- The US bombs Indonesia and supplies arms to anti-Sukarno rebels.
1958- The US threatens Iraq with nuclear war after Iraq begins preparations to depose the US-backed tyrannical leader of Kuwait.
1958- The US threatens China with nuclear war over Taiwan.
1958- The US pressures West Germany into rearming the West German army.
1959-61- The US bombs Cuba.
1960s-present- The US backs the Colombian government, under which an estimated 67 000 people have been killed.
1960s- The US unsuccessfully attempts to assassinate the Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.
1960- The US bombs Guatemala again.
1960- The CIA blows up the Coubre in the bay of Havana, killing a number of people.
1960- US troops fire on protesters in Panama.
1961, April 17- The US attempts to invade Cuba with 1500 mercenaries, 80 warplanes and 35 warships. The attempt is a complete failure.
1961- Socialist Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba of Zaire is assassinated at the express request of US president Eisenhower after Lumumba nationalised several foreign industries in Zaire.
1961- US threatens German Democratic Republic with nuclear war.
1961- The US bombs Vietnam.
1962- The US imposes a naval/air blockade on Cuba and threatens nuclear war.
1963, November 22- A CIA operative called AM/LASH is given authorisation by the CIA to assassinate Fidel Castro with a syringe disguised as a pen. The plot was aborted after Kennedy was assassinated.
1963, December 23- A CIA commando unit uses underwater demolition charges to sink the Cuban navy torpedo boat LT-385 off the coast of the Isle of Pines. 4 personnel are killed.
1964, June 15- US President Lyndon Johnson approves of OPLAN-106-5A, in which the US would make a ?lightening attack? on the USSR. The plans included using nuclear weapons on military sites, industrial centres and cities in the USSR, the GDR, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Yugoslavia, Albania and even Austria. Fortunately, the plan was never employed.
1964- US troops fire on a peaceful protest in Panama killing 21.
1964- The US, Britain and Belgium invade and bomb the Congo with 10 000 troops and 60 warplanes.
1964- The US backs the overthrow of the Greek government. In the years to come, tens of thousands are killed by the new regime.
1964- The US supports a bloodthirsty coup in Brazil.
1964- The US invades Panama and kills hundreds of people trying to overthrow the fascist US-backed regime.
1964-73- The US invades and bombs Laos with 50 000 troops and 1500 warplanes. An estimated 500 000 people are killed.
1965- The US bombs Peru.
1965- US troops and policeman kill 27 rioters during the Watt riots in the US.
1965-73- The US invades Vietnam with 2.6 million troops, 10 000 warplanes and helicopters and hundreds of tanks and warships. The USAF drops napalm, Agent Orange and fourteen million tonnes of bombs and rockets on Vietnam, twice the tonnage of bombs in the whole of World War II and equal to 700 atomic bombs like those dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. During the war, the US began the Phoenix Program, which saw the executions of almost 250 000 people belonging to or associated with communist or nationalist movements in Vietnam. The Agent Orange used during the war still causes birth deformities today.
1965-73-The US assists the Thai government in suppressing a popular uprising.
1965- The US invades the Dominican Republic with 40 000 troops, 275 warplanes and 50 warships.
1965- The US backs the coup in Indonesia that results in General Suhato coming to power. Under Suhato, an estimated one million communists, suspected communists and communist sympathisers are executed.
1965-77- US documents reveal that the US navy experienced 381 accidents with nuclear weapons between these years.
1966- The US sells 16 F-14 Phantom jets to Iran.
1966-67- US Green Berets intervene in Guatemala against rebels.
1967-69- The US bombs Guatemala again.
1967, June- The US Army 327th Infantry Division, or Tiger Force, is shipped into Vietnam. During their time in Vietnam, Tiger Force committed terrible atrocities, such as the massacring of 10 elderly Vietnamese farmers tending a field. The commanding officer of Tiger Force, Colonel Morse, demanded the troops meet a body count of 327 to match the division?s designation. One Tiger Force soldier, Sam Ybarra, raped and murdered a 13 year old girl and shot a 15 year old boy for his tennis shoes. For killing this boy, Ybarra was commended for having killed the 1000th person in Operation Wheeler.
1967, June 5- The US lends military support to the Israeli invasion of Egypt, Jordan and Syria.
1967- US troops kill 43 African-American rights activists during a riot in Detroit.
1968- The US COINTELPOL program kills 29 members of the African-American rights organisation the Black Panthers.
1968, March- US troops massacre 500 innocent Vietnamese civilians, including women, children and elderly people, at My Lai in the worst massacre of civilians since Nogun-Ri during the Korean War.
1968, May 18- The US assassinates African-American rights campaigner Martin Luther King Jr. US stations an average of 21 000 troops in each major city to prevent uprisings.
1968, November 8-9- The US bombs villages near the Cambodian border.
1968-72- The US launches operation Speedy Express in Vietnam. over 11 000 Vietnamese were killed in the operation but less than 500 arms recovered.
1969-75- The US invades and bombs Cambodia with 70 000 troops, 500 warplanes and 40 warships. Up to 2 million Cambodians killed in campaign.
1970- The US assists the Iranian invasion of Oman.
1972, April 25- US president Richard Nixon states his desire to use nuclear bombs on Vietnam. He is advised not to, not to save innocent lives, but to makes sure public opinion doesn?t swing any further against the administration.
1973, February 27- Native American Indians seize Wounded Knee, the sight of the 1890 massacre, demanding a US Senate investigation into Native American problems. US policemen kill people during the 70 day siege that follows.
1973, September 11- The US supports a coup to overthrow the popularly elected socialist President Allende of Chile. Approximately 30 000 are killed by the Pinochet regime.
1973- The US makes plans to invade Saudi Arabia to solve its fuel crisis. The plans were later abandoned.
1974- The Vietnam War ends. An estimated 3 500 000 Vietnamese were killed.
1975- The US arms Angolan nationalist rebels in an attempt to overthrow the popularly elected government there.
1975- According to John Pilger and Noam Chomsky, the US overthrew Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam through the Governor-General. Whitlam wanted to know how many CIA agents and US bases there were in his country and thus had to be removed.
1976-92- The CIA trains Angolan nationalist rebels.
1976, October 6- CIA agent Orlando Bosch hires 2 Venezuelan mercenaries to plant bombs on a Cubana Airlines passenger plane flying from Babados. All 73 passengers on board are killed.
1976-2002- Between these years the US executes 810 of its citizens.
1979- The US supports Saddam Hussein?s bloody takeover of power in Iraq. Hussein immediately switches Iraq?s allegiance from the Soviet Union to the US.
1980- Throughout the 1980s, the US bombs El Salvador and Nicaragua.
1980- US threatens Iran with nuclear war after Iranian Revolution.
1980- The US threatens the USSR with nuclear war if soviet troops intervene in Iran.
1980- Iraq invades Iran with US arms and support.
1980- The US gives military assistance to the fascist junta in El Salvador.
1980, September 11- US extreme-right terrorist organisation Omega 7 murders Cuban diplomat Felix Garcia Rodriguez on a New York City street in broad daylight.
1981- The US shoots down 2 Libyan jets.
1981- US warships mine harbours in Nicaragua.
1981, December 1- US President Ronald Reagan grants $19 million to be spent on training 500 Nicaraguan rebels to fight the Sandinista government in Nicaragua.
1982- The US trains hundreds of El Salvadorian troops of the tyrannical US-puppet regime in place in El Salvador.
1983- The US invades Lebanon with 2000 troops and 30 warships to prop up a pro-Western government.
1983- The US bombs and invades Grenada. 84 Cubans and an estimated 400 Grenadans are killed.
1983- The USS New Jersey bombs hill villages in Lebanon as part of the Israeli invasion.
1984- The US Commerce Department issues license for export of aflatoxin to Iraq useable in biological weapons. Iraq uses these gasses to kill Kurdish civilians in 1988.
1984- The US shoots down 2 Iranian jets over the Persian Gulf.
1984- The US develops the Trident submarine, capable of levelling 229 cities at one time.
1985- The US Reagan administration uses a truck loaded with bombs to kill a Muslin cleric in Beirut who was opposed to the US. The attack killed 80 people and wounded 200 more.
1986- The US attacks Libyan patrol boats and shore installations, killing 72 personnel.
1986- The US bombs Libya, killing over 100 people, including Colonel Qaddafi's adopted daughter.
1986, October- The US spends $100 million to assist the Nicaraguan Contras against the Sandinista government.
1986-87- The US practices first strike attacks against the Soviet Union and ignores nuclear testing bans issued by the USSR.
1987- The US sends a naval fleet to the Persian Gulf to support Iraq's war against Iran. US warships destroy Iranian oil platforms in the Gulf.
1988- The USS Vincennes shoots down an Iranian Airbus, killing 290 civilians.
1988- The Iraqi government uses US biological weapons supplied to them in 1984 to gas Kurds in Halabja, northern Iraq.
1989- The US bombs and invades Panama with 20 000 troops, killing an estimated 7000 people.
1989- The US shoots down two Libyan aircraft.
1989- The US arms Afghani terrorists and landlords with sophisticated technology to repulse the Soviet invasion and overthrow the popular revolutionary Afghani Marxist government. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan eventually costs the USSR so much that it goes bankrupt and collapses.
1989- The US? pocket organisation NATO is responsible for the terrorist bombing of the Bologna railway station in East Germany, killing 86 people.
1991- The US invades Iraq with 535 000 troops and 2950 warplanes. This was the first time the US used Uranium shells on civilians. Over 300 000 Iraqi people were killed. Since the end of the end of the war, 10 000 US soldiers who served in Iraq have died from uranium poisoning from American shells.
1991, March 15- US president George H. Bush gives CIA agent Jose Basullo of the US terrorist organisation Brothers to the Rescue 3 US Air Force type 0-2 aeroplanes. The 0-2s are used to violate Cuban airspace and terrorise the population until the Cubans are forced to shoot them down in 1996.
1991, December 25- The greatest disaster in modern history: the Soviet Union collapses leaving the US as the sole superpower on the planet. It is believed that between 1946 and 1991, the US spent $30 trillion trying to destroy the USSR.
1992- US troops are deployed to put down anti-police riots in Los Angeles.
1993- The US invades Somalia, killing over 10 000 civilians. In one particularly brutal attack, the US killed hundreds of peaceful protesters with helicopter gunships. This gruesome massacre was glorified by the US in the Hollywood film Black Hawk Down. The film drew a great response in Somalia, where film-goers cheered wildly whenever an American soldier was killed or wounded in the film.
1993- The US bombs Iraq
1994- The US invades Haiti again.
1994, May- NATO bombs the Bosnian village of Gorazde, killing 1000 civilians and militiamen.
1994, April- NATO bombs Serbian forces.
Mid-1990s- The US Clinton administration supplies 80% of the arms used by Turkish forces to crush the Turkish Kurd population.
1995- US generals in Croatia advise the neo-fascist dictator Franco Tudjman to force over 300 000 Serbs from their homes in a vast operation called ?Operation Storm?.
1995- The US invades and bombs Bosnia.
1995- The US bombs airfields in Croatia.
1995- The US invades Iraq again under the name ?Desert Storm?.
1996- The US ?saturate? bombs Iraq.
1996-97- US troops harass Rwandan refugees in Congo.
1998- The US bombs Sudan.
1998- The US bombs Afghanistan. 3700 were killed during this attack.
1998- The US bombs Iraq again.
1999- The US bombs Serbia, killing over 3000 civilians. US troops utilised uranium shells in the bombing of Belgrade.
1999- In this year the US kills the largest amount of its citizens since 1976 with a record 98 executions.
1999- By this year, up to 2000 people had been killed by the US in Kosovo.
1999, April 3- NATO planes bomb the Serbian town of Aleksinac, killing 12. Town elders recalled at the time that even Nazi bombers in the Second World War hadn?t bombed civilians.
1999, mid-April- NATO planes attack a train in Serbia, killing 27.
1999, 14 April- US planes attack 2 civilian convoys killing 75 people, wounding 31 and destroying many vehicles.
1999, 15 April- Yugoslav officials state that NATO killed over 200 civilians between the 13th and 15th of April.
1999, 7 May- NATO bombs hit the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, killing 3 embassy staff.
2000- 42% of the African-American population in Texas were on Death Row in this year. The African-American population of Texas made up 12% of the Texan population.
2001, September 11- Former CIA soldier Osama bin Laden uses his CIA training to launch two passenger airlines at the American World Trade Centres and another one at the US military HQ, the Pentagon. Thousands are killed. The US threatens Iraq, Syria, Cuba, Afghanistan and North Korea with invasion.
2001- The US invades Afghanistan. US academic Marc Herald claims that 3780 people had been killed in between the first day of bombing and May 2002, although this figure does not include civilians who have indirectly died as a result of the invasion, such as those killed by starvation. British newspaper the Guardian states that over 20 000 people have been killed as a result of the invasion. German journalist Doran witnessed and filmed the executions of 3000 Taliban prisoners by the US. So begins the War on Terrorism.
2001- US troops forcibly disarm Albanian rebels.
2001, September 30- Israel uses American helicopters to destroy civilian homes in Palestine.
2001, October 11- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Khorum in order to destroy a non-existent Taliban base. At least 100 people were killed.
2001, October 22- US troops kill 25 Afghani civilians in the village of Chowkar-Karez.
2001, October 31- US missiles kill 13 Afghani civilians in Kandahar.
2001, November- US warplanes kill several hundred rioting Taliban being held captive at the fortress of Qala-i-janghi.
2001, December 6-7- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Moshkhil. 16 civilians were killed.
2001, December 21- US warplanes attack an Afghani civilian convoy and 10 houses. 65 people were killed.
2001, December 30- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Qalaye Niaze. According to local doctors, 107 civilians were killed. The UN puts the death toll at 52, including 25 children.
2002, May 10- Australian troops acting as part of the US invasion force in Afghanistan kill 4 men for no reason whatsoever.
2002, May 12- US troops kill two unarmed Afghani teenagers during a raid.
2002, May 16- US warplanes and Australian troops kill 10 Afghani tribesmen.
2002, May 25- US troops abduct 59 civilians and kill two people- a 100 year old man, village chief Hajji Berget, who was killed after being hit in the head with a US rifle butt, and a 6 year old girl who fell down a well fleeing in terror from US troops.
2002, July 1- A US AC-130 helicopter gunship killed 54 Afghani civilians and injured 120 in Kakarak. Some sources believe that over 300 had been killed or wounded in the attack. Most of those killed were people attending a wedding in Kakarak.
2003, March 20- The US invades Iraq again killing an estimated 500 000 people. One of the initial operations, Operation Peninsula Strike, claimed 100 civilian lives, 70 of which at a refugee camp near the Syrian border. A 70 year old shepherd and his 3 sons were shot extinguishing flames caused by US shelling.
2003, March 21- 6 Iraqi civilians are killed during US airstrikes on Basra in Iraq.
2003, March 22- The US kills between 50 and 77 civilians during an airstrike on Basra using cluster bombs.
2003, March 23- US airstrikes kill 4 civilians in Tikrit, Iraq.
2003, March 23- The US kills 14 people in Basra, Iraq.
2003, March 31- US soldiers from the US Army 3rd Infantry Division open fire on a car , killing 11 of the 17 occupants ?by accident? at a US checkpoint south of Karbala, Iraq. One of the survivors, Lamea Hassan, later told reporters that "I saw the heads of my two little girls come off. My girls- I saw their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead."
A journalist at the scene recorded the US captain in charge of the checkpoint yelling at the trigger-happy troops; "You just fucking killed a family because you didn?t fire a warning shot soon enough."
On the same day, 3 British soldiers were ordered to home ?for protesting that the war is killing innocent civilians.?
2003, April- The US allows 150 Israeli commandos into Iraq to hunt and kill over 500 Iraqi scientists, according to a French general.
2003, April 1- The US kills 33 Iraqis and injures another 310 while bombing the Iraqi town of Hilla. Razek al-Kazem al-Khafaji told French reporters that his wife and their six children, his father, mother and three brothers were killed during the assault in Hilla. As well as this, US troops kill an unarmed Iraqi driver outside the town of Shatra.
2003, April- US DynCorp employees assigned to police NATO-devastated Bosnia on behalf of the UN were videotaped raping women and implicated of buying and selling prostitutes as young as 12 years old.
2003, April 15- US troops kill 13 Iraqis and wound another 29 people peacefully protesting in Mosul.
2003, April 16- US troops kill 4 Iraqis and wound another 10 people peacefully protesting in Mosul.
2003, April 27- US troops kill between 13 and 15 Iraqis protesting in Fallujah. Among the dead were three children under 11 years old.
2003, April 29- US troops open fire on 1000 Iraqis protesting in Fallujah. 2 civilians are killed and an additional 14 are injured.
2003, May 18- US troops kill 16 Iraqi resistance fighters.
2003, August 3- The US kills 70 Iraqi civilians in a crackdown on ?Saddam Hussein loyalists?.
2003, December 8- A US airstrike kills 10 Afghani civilians, 9 of whom were children. The US claimed it was hunting for a Taliban leader.
2003- The US makes its first plans to assassinate Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez in mid-2003. The plans are fortunately discovered by the Venezuelans.
2004, January 10- Having executed three of its citizens in the first week of 2004, the US states its plans to establish a mining base on the moon, thus signalling the beginning of US expansionism into space.
2004, March- The US sends troops into Haiti to support right-wing rebels who had overthrown the democratically elected popular President Aristedes.
2004, April 7- US troops destroy a mosque in Iraq.
2004, April 8- US troops kill up to 50 Iraqi civilians during increased clashes with Iraqi freedom fighters.
2004, April 9- The US abandons 3 Japanese civilians to their fate when it advises the Japanese government to ignore the Iraqi kidnapper?s demands to have Japan withdraw its troops from Iraq. Fortunately the hostages were released.
2004, May- The US is discovered to be torturing and murdering inmates at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. There shocking photographs depicted a US soldier, Lynndie England,
LMAO WOW WHAT A DUMASS... some of this stuff is atrocities yah. But dude seriously.... Us troops harass rwanda refugees in congo........maybe you didnt mention how much aide we send to rwanda or how the people who were harassed were part of groups that iunno BURNT ENTIRE VILLIAGES OF LIVING PEOPLE INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN, but nah, that wouldnt sound anti american to list that....if you are from ANY european nation you dont have the right to list any of this... well are next fun little one US forcefully disarm albanian rebles.....Could they be the same ones who like bombing greece? yes you dumbass they are. Please say what country you are from id like to here it... and i could go on pointing out all the retarted stuff you posted but itd be a waste of my time.

I did say that there was no proof. I said that the United States did not care to offer any.

I would still like an answer to my other questions.
The other questions are rendered irrelevant by the fact that Al Quaeda was used by the Taliban as an elite military unit. It was a de facto part of the Afghan military comparable to the French foreign legion's use by France. The US doesn't play host to an elite army of foreigners that they send overseas to strike at foreign governments. Your examples were totally different from the Al Quaeda situation.

I've asked myself thousands of times, why didn't America attack Russia in 1994 or 1999 when they lead their intervention in Chechnya??? The very same thing that happened in Kosovo? and just why America didn't attack? is it because there was no "danger to freedom" or because Russia has a bigger nuclear arsenal than USA???

Occupied Kosovo??? HA HA HA HA HA
Please, don't make me laugh. If you took enough effort you'd have seen that Kosovo has been part of Serbia since 7th Century, a long before america was even disovered. And I assume that if Mexicans become majority in texas and they proclaim independence and join Mexico you'd be all pro.Define "discovered"...

This cannot be construed as an attack upon China. In 1946 the Nationalists were China's government, the Communists were rebels.

I don't recall describing it as an attack upon China.

You were asking what the "America-bashers" had in mind, so I told you.

Kosovo was recognized as a part of Serbia by the Treaty of London in 1913.
Could one not argue that that situation was rendered null and void by the formation of Yugoslavia, and when Yugoslavia broke up new borders could be drawn?

I don't recall describing it as an attack upon China.

You were asking what the "America-bashers" had in mind, so I told you.
Thank you... I should've made it clear. The statement was:

... Here is the list of all countries that have been attacked by America:

China 1945-46.
...

The other questions are rendered irrelevant by the fact that Al Quaeda was used by the Taliban as an elite military unit. It was a de facto part of the Afghan military comparable to the French foreign legion's use by France. The US doesn't play host to an elite army of foreigners that they send overseas to strike at foreign governments. Your examples were totally different from the Al Quaeda situation.I'd disagree with you there. I haven't really seen enough evidence to consider that link. I do, however consider the fact that the Taliban allowed radical fundamentalists to train their volonteers in their country a legitimate reason for toppling a government that wasn't considered legitimate in the first place.
That said, I can understand why the Shrub was so reluctant to deal with Afghanistan in the first place. He was making oil deals with the Taliban...

Define "discovered"...

American continent was discovered by Columbus in 1492, actually Vikings were there 1 000 years before. So before 1942 there was no america, at that time Serbia already had it's country, together with Kosovo (not to mention that it survived 500 years under Turks)

Errm, what is this obsession that the Americans have that they are the best?
They certainly are not the most powerful except by their own rather twisted idea.
Read the post carefully. Did I say that we were the best? No, I said that we were the most powerfull, which is an undeniable fact. Our military is more technologically advance than anyone else's, and has enough numbers to stand up to any nation and completely evicerate their military. Our economy is still the biggest in the world.

That doesn't make us the all around best because some nations have more respect for human rights, some nations have lower crime rates, etc. There are alot of different criterea that can be used to judge who is the best, but there are only a few criterea that judge the most powerfull, and by those criterea the US is undeniably the most powerfull nation.

I've asked myself thousands of times, why didn't America attack Russia in 1994 or 1999 when they lead their intervention in Chechnya??? The very same thing that happened in Kosovo? and just why America didn't attack? is it because there was no "danger to freedom" or because Russia has a bigger nuclear arsenal than USA???The Russians aren't doing "ethnic cleansing", more of an "indiscriminate killing". Plus, you're right. The reason we couldn't get away with it was because Russia can fight back. They call that "international politics". The US isn't the sole player to play by those rules. You have to convict just about everyone except maybe North Korea or the African Union for realistically assessing their position on the global playing field.

The other questions are rendered irrelevant by the fact that Al Quaeda was used by the Taliban as an elite military unit. It was a de facto part of the Afghan military comparable to the French foreign legion's use by France. The US doesn't play host to an elite army of foreigners that they send overseas to strike at foreign governments. Your examples were totally different from the Al Quaeda situation.

The US regularly uses proxy armies. They did so in Nicaragua during the 1980s and are doing so in Iraq right now.

The sponsoring of coups is aggression akin to a terrorist attack, especially when the result is an authoritarian dictatorship that brutalizes its people.

serbia dident exist in the 600s (7th century) it was a part of the avar khanate...



and kosovo was part of the byzantine province of epirus at that time.......

I invite everyone to go here: http://peru.indymedia.org/print.php?id=61

I haven't had time to read the whole document (it's quite long) but some things might become more clear.

I'd disagree with you there. I haven't really seen enough evidence to consider that link. I do, however consider the fact that the Taliban allowed radical fundamentalists to train their volonteers in their country a legitimate reason for toppling a government that wasn't considered legitimate in the first place.
That said, I can understand why the Shrub was so reluctant to deal with Afghanistan in the first place. He was making oil deals with the Taliban...
The Taliban used Al Quaeda troops as elite forces in fighting the Northern Alliance. In fact, an Al Quaeda suicide bomb squad posing as reporters killed Achmed Shah Masood, the most highly respected general of the Northern Alliance.

Could one not argue that that situation was rendered null and void by the formation of Yugoslavia, and when Yugoslavia broke up new borders could be drawn?
Actually, the Treaty of 1913 was not concerned with Yugoslavia at all--in 1913 there was no such country. However, it did define the borders of Serbia and Montenegro. So the break-up of federal Yugoslavia (not universally recognized, BTW) could not affect the borders of Serbia itself.

American continent was discovered by Columbus in 1492, actually Vikings were there 1 000 years before. So before 1942 there was no america, at that time Serbia already had it's country, together with Kosovo (not to mention that it survived 500 years under Turks)




umm the vikings discovered north america 500 years before columbus, not 1,000................learn some history.




...and the ainu might have discovered america before that (800 ad)

The US regularly uses proxy armies. They did so in Nicaragua during the 1980s and are doing so in Iraq right now.

The sponsoring of coups is aggression akin to a terrorist attack, especially when the result is an authoritarian dictatorship that brutalizes its people.
Al Quaeda wasn't so much a proxy army, but more of a wing of the Taliban military.

Actually, the Treaty of 1913 was not concerned with Yugoslavia at all--in 1913 there was no such country. However, it did define the borders of Serbia and Montenegro. So the break-up of federal Yugoslavia (not universally recognized, BTW) could not affect the borders of Serbia itself.
That's my point. The Treaty of 1913 was broken by the formation of Yugoslavia. When Yugoslavia broke up the borders were ready to be redrawn.

Al Quaeda wasn't so much a proxy army, but more of a wing of the Taliban military.

I don't think that's true.

But really, it doesn't matter. The question is whether it's justified for countries to attack countries that shelter and support people committing terrorist crimes. I don't think it is, at least not on the scale of the US invasion of Afghanistan.

umm the vikings discovered north america 500 years before columbus, not 1,000................learn some history.




...and the ainu might have discovered america before that (800 ad)

My point was that Serbia and Serbian people have existed long before America and Americans. It doesn't matter 500 or 1000 years that Vikings discovered america; and if you are so into history than you shuld know that on 1389 Serbs lost a great battle against Turks in KOSOVO, which was then under Serbia.

sounds like another serb nationalist who likes to badmouth a country who was just trying to protect some innocent civilians from the savageness of his countrys armed forces and irregulars. did you not see the video of serbs gunning down young men that they found recently????

My point was that Serbia and Serbian people have existed long before America and Americans. It doesn't matter 500 or 1000 years that Vikings discovered america; and if you are so into history than you shuld know that on 1389 Serbs lost a great battle against Turks in KOSOVO, which was then under Serbia.



yea, i knew about that battle, serbs only had a cohesive cultural identity from 900 ad. the serb nation was always weak, they had to ask the magyars for help to preserve their independence against the byzantines in the 1100s and then asked for byzantine help against magyars (hungarians) after that. their defeat at the hands of the turks was no suprise.

sounds like another serb nationalist who likes to badmouth a country who was just trying to protect some innocent civilians from the savageness of his countrys armed forces and irregulars. did you not see the video of serbs gunning down young men that they found recently????

and did you see photos of thousands of viatneme children murderd by Agent Orange?? or children dead in Iraq, Afganistan, Serbia? residental buildings, schools, kindergartens all destryoed in so called "humane bombing"

I am not a nationalist, I don't even try to defend my country, yes my country has done some evil things but that is still far, far less than USA's crimes.

I don't think that's true.

But really, it doesn't matter. The question is whether it's justified for countries to attack countries that shelter and support people committing terrorist crimes. I don't think it is, at least not on the scale of the US invasion of Afghanistan.
Well, I disagree with you. I think we were quite lenient on Afghanistan. It wasn't a war of punishment, but of liberation. Now if we can only get our elected idiots to commit the money and expertise to build a modern infrastructure for that country we could ensure that they become a powerfull ally in that region for the forseeable future.

and did you see photos of thousands of viatneme children murderd by Agent Orange?? or children dead in Iraq, Afganistan, Serbia? residental buildings, schools, kindergartens all destryoed in so called "humane bombing"

I am not a nationalist, I don't even try to defend my country, yes my country has done some evil things but that is still far, far less than USA's crimes.
Maybe we should have carpet bombed Serbia with B52 and B1 strategic bombers so that you could see how humane our current bombing campaigns are.

Well, I disagree with you. I think we were quite lenient on Afghanistan. It wasn't a war of punishment, but of liberation. Now if we can only get our elected idiots to commit the money and expertise to build a modern infrastructure for that country we could ensure that they become a powerfull ally in that region for the forseeable future.

It wasn't a war of liberation for those innocent villagers slaughtered by US bombs.

And all it's done is produce chaos and destruction, with violence still wracking the country.

ever heard the saying "people in glass houses shouldent throw stones.."

your in no position to criticize the nation i live in when your country is run by organized crime syndicates and is a pariah state shunned by the rest of europe (except russia)

That's my point. The Treaty of 1913 was broken by the formation of Yugoslavia. When Yugoslavia broke up the borders were ready to be redrawn.
It was not concerned with Yugoslavia. How could it be concerned with it?

Example: the US breaks apart into 50 states. Does the fact of its break-up give the right to the Panhandle of Texas to secede from the state?

It wasn't a war of liberation for those innocent villagers slaughtered by US bombs.

And all it's done is produce chaos and destruction, with violence still wracking the country.
You mean to tell me that civilians actually died in a war? Shocking!

Women can go to see doctors now. They can go to school. Widows are allowed to go to work instead of being forced to beg on the street and watch their children starvet to death. I'd say we've done some good. We just need to put enough money and expertise into the country to modernize it and make it functional again.

ever heard the saying "people in glass houses shouldent throw stones.."

your in no position to criticize the nation i live in when your country is run by organized crime syndicates and is a pariah state shunned by the rest of europe (except russia)

By the same logic, you should hesitate before criticizing Serbian atrocities. Or anybody else's, for that matter.

It was not concerned with Yugoslavia. How could it be concerned with it?

Example: the US breaks apart into 50 states. Does the fact of its break-up give the right to the Panhandle of Texas to secede from the state?
Bad example. Look at it this way. Let's say the EU turns into one massive nation, then falls appart. What's to prevent the borders from being redrawn so that France is separated into two separate countries? The fact that they were once part of France is irrelevant now because France ceased to exist when the EU became one nation.

Bad example. Look at it this way. Let's say the EU turns into one massive nation, then falls appart. What's to prevent the borders from being redrawn so that France is separated into two separate countries? The fact that they were once part of France is irrelevant now because France ceased to exist when the EU became one nation.
Serbia has not ceased to exist. Yugoslavia was a federal state, just like the US. Serbia was one of its provinces.

Well, I disagree with you. I think we were quite lenient on Afghanistan. It wasn't a war of punishment, but of liberation. Now if we can only get our elected idiots to commit the money and expertise to build a modern infrastructure for that country we could ensure that they become a powerfull ally in that region for the forseeable future.

Then what do you mean "lenient" if it was not about punishment? I'd agree that the US should have committed more to Afghanistan instead of invading Iraq, which had no relation to Al Qaeda.

Maybe we should have carpet bombed Serbia with B52 and B1 strategic bombers so that you could see how humane our current bombing campaigns are.

My country has experienced B52s, B1, B2s and F-117s. After all, we are the only country in the world that has shot down a F-117; apparently it wasn't that "invisible" after all.

I am an American and I agree with one thing in this thread. George W. Bush SUCKS!!!!!! Can't for the life of me figure out why people voted his WAR HUNGRY ASS(just like his daddy) into office.

As for the starter of this stupid thread:
Instead of wasting your time doing so much research on our country(which you are not a part of) why dont you step back and look as hard at your own?
The american people take their hard earnd money and send it over seas all the time to feed, clothe and educate others and this is the thanks we get?
I say stop this and let them starve, see how they like us then. :upyours:

I am an American and I agree with one thing in this thread. George W. Bush SUCKS!!!!!! Can't for the life of me figure out why people voted his WAR HUNGRY ASS(just like his daddy) into office.

As for the starter of this stupid thread:
Instead of wasting your time doing so much research on our country(which you are not a part of) why dont you step back and look as hard at your own?
The american people take their hard earnd money and send it over seas all the time to feed, clothe and educate others and this is the thanks we get?
I say stop this and let them starve, see how they like us then. :upyours:

If a murderer feeds his victim and then kills it, does that make him good?

My country has experienced B52s, B1, B2s and F-117s. After all, we are the only country in the world that has shot down a F-117; apparently it wasn't that "invisible" after all.
You haven't exeperienced carpet bombing. Maybe that would give you some perspective on the issue.

You shot down 1 F117. Congratulations. 1 lost of the many planes and many missions they flew over your country. And you probably only aquired the target when the bomb bay was open, which gives the plane a bigger radar cross section temporarily.

America is not some evil nazi regime. Neither is it a perfect country where everyone is good and cannot possibly make mistakes. This is what most (sane) people can see - I don't understand why the rest can't.

I think that if some Americans would just stop trying to claim that they're country has never made a mistake, that all americans (apart from the dirty liberals) are perfect and "sub human unamerican commies" have no right to point out that this is not the case, they'd get a lot more sympathy.

Serbia Charges Seven With Murder of 19 Muslims
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By REUTERS
Published: August 12, 2005
BELGRADE, Aug 12 (Reuters) - Serbia charged seven men on Friday with the murder of 19 Muslim civilians during the 1992-95 Bosnian war, in the first case handed to Belgrade by the U.N. war crimes tribunal in The Hague.

Skip to next paragraph The office of Serbia's special war crimes prosecutor identified the accused as former Zvornik mayor Branko Grujic, local defence commander Branko Popovic and five members of a Bosnian Serb paramilitary unit known as the "Yellow Wasps".

It accused them of forcibly removing 1,822 Muslims between May and July 1992 from the town of Zvornik on Bosnia's eastern border with Serbia.

"The accused are also charged with monstrous crimes in the killing of at least 19 Muslim civilians," the office said in a statement. All of the accused are in custody.

The U.N. tribunal says it wants Serbia to tackle a number of lower-level cases stemming from the bloody collapse of Yugoslavia in the 1990s that the Hague-based court has neither the time nor the resources to handle.

The statement from the Serbian war crimes prosecutor said Zvornik had become the first such case when the U.N. tribunal asked Belgrade to take on the investigation in June 2004.

Serbia, like other ex-Yugoslav states, must show it can confront war crimes committed by its citizens and try them fairly in domestic courts in order to make further progress towards joining the European Union.

But the process remains highly contentious in a country where many still regard those accused of war crimes as heroes.

Serbia has already tried a number of its own cases involving Serb defendants, most recently convicting four Serb paramilitaries of the murder of 16 Muslims dragged from a bus and killed in October 1992.


HMMM. I see your contry is involved in so called war crimes to huh?

You haven't exeperienced carpet bombing. Maybe that would give you some perspective on the issue.

You shot down 1 F117. Congratulations. 1 lost of the many planes and many missions they flew over your country. And you probably only aquired the target when the bomb bay was open, which gives the plane a bigger radar cross section temporarily.

1? I only mentioned that one, for full coverage on some 70 planes that were shot down check www.aeronautics.ru and search for Yugoslavian conflict.

Serbia Charges Seven With Murder of 19 Muslims
Sign In to E-Mail This
Printer-Friendly
By REUTERS
Published: August 12, 2005
BELGRADE, Aug 12 (Reuters) - Serbia charged seven men on Friday with the murder of 19 Muslim civilians during the 1992-95 Bosnian war, in the first case handed to Belgrade by the U.N. war crimes tribunal in The Hague.

Skip to next paragraph The office of Serbia's special war crimes prosecutor identified the accused as former Zvornik mayor Branko Grujic, local defence commander Branko Popovic and five members of a Bosnian Serb paramilitary unit known as the "Yellow Wasps".

It accused them of forcibly removing 1,822 Muslims between May and July 1992 from the town of Zvornik on Bosnia's eastern border with Serbia.

"The accused are also charged with monstrous crimes in the killing of at least 19 Muslim civilians," the office said in a statement. All of the accused are in custody.

The U.N. tribunal says it wants Serbia to tackle a number of lower-level cases stemming from the bloody collapse of Yugoslavia in the 1990s that the Hague-based court has neither the time nor the resources to handle.

The statement from the Serbian war crimes prosecutor said Zvornik had become the first such case when the U.N. tribunal asked Belgrade to take on the investigation in June 2004.

Serbia, like other ex-Yugoslav states, must show it can confront war crimes committed by its citizens and try them fairly in domestic courts in order to make further progress towards joining the European Union.

But the process remains highly contentious in a country where many still regard those accused of war crimes as heroes.

Serbia has already tried a number of its own cases involving Serb defendants, most recently convicting four Serb paramilitaries of the murder of 16 Muslims dragged from a bus and killed in October 1992.


HMMM. I see your contry is involved in so called war crimes to huh?

I never said that my country is perfect, I never said some of my people have not committed war crimes, and I am not saying that my country rocks.

The only purpose of this thread was to show the truth about what America really is. Yes, America has good people as well, good bands, good movies, bloody goodlooking ladies but it is also responisble for several millions of people that died under american bombs. GET IT???

1? I only mentioned that one, for full coverage on some 70 planes that were shot down check www.aeronautics.ru and search for Yugoslavian conflict.
Only one stealth airplane. Also it happens to be the first model of stealth airplane in the US arsenal, and consequently the most primitive.

Only one stealth airplane. Also it happens to be the first model of stealth airplane in the US arsenal, and consequently the most primitive.

HA HA HA HA HA
I happen to be know a lot about military, especially aviation and if there is one thing that I can say about F-117A Stealth is that it is everything but primitive. I don't like them but I admit, F-117 is one of the best planes inthe world today.

but it is also responisble for several millions of people that died under american bombs. GET IT???


War happens, peolpe die, get over it!!!!!!!!
Lots of other countries have gone to war and killed people not just the GOOD OL U.S.A.

Get off all those damn web sites, get your head out off the newspapers(and your ass), turn off the news and go out and get a life!!

HA HA HA HA HA
I happen to be know a lot about military, especially aviation and if there is one thing that I can say about F-117A Stealth is that it is everything but primitive. I don't like them but I admit, F-117 is one of the best planes inthe world today.
When compared to the B2 and the F22 it's stealth technology is primitive. The only reason it seems so highly advanced to you is that most of the world makes do with much less advanced aircraft. The US, however, is at the cutting edge of military aircraft design.

War happens, peolpe die, get over it!!!!!!!!
Lots of other countries have gone to war and killed people not just the GOOD OL U.S.A.

Get off all those damn web sites, get your head out off the newspapers(and your ass), turn off the news and go out and get a life!!

Sir Douglas!

If I had done that, then I'd just become another ignorant fool, and ignorance is a crime towards human mind.

When compared to the B2 and the F22 it's stealth technology is primitive. The only reason it seems so highly advanced to you is that most of the world makes do with much less advanced aircraft. The US, however, is at the cutting edge of military aircraft design.

Yea, the great B2 that can only work in dry environment since rain, snow and other metherological conditions make it non stealthy. Great technology.

When compared to the B2 and the F22 it's stealth technology is primitive. The only reason it seems so highly advanced to you is that most of the world makes do with much less advanced aircraft. The US, however, is at the cutting edge of military aircraft design.



france is also a leader in advance aircraft design and avionics. almost equal to the US.

Yea, the great B2 that can only work in dry environment since rain, snow and other metherological conditions make it non stealthy. Great technology.
Freezing rain and snow will make any plane less stealthy because it changes the shape of the surfaces.

france is also a leader in advance aircraft design and avionics. almost equal to the US.
True. If you want to buy high quality military aircraft you deal with the US or Europe.

People!

Make love not war and remember, THE MOST DANGEROUS PEOPLE ARE IGNORANT PEOPLE FIGTHING FOR A CAUSE.

the serb's old SAMs can shoot down any plane.

THE MOST DANGEROUS PEOPLE ARE IGNORANT PEOPLE FIGTHING FOR A CAUSE.
Hello pot, I'm kettle. Call me black?

Well I'll end my part in this childish post. Just thought I'd add my two cents.
This America hating shit comes from someone that doesnt live here and only knows what he is told or reads.


I'll say this in closing:

Does America ROCK?

YOUR DAMN RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!

ALL HAIL THE RED WHITE AND BLUE!!!
AND IF YOU DONT LIKE IT....HEY FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!
:upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:
:sniper: :mp5:

OOC: America, fuck yeah!
IC:I'm getting tired of all these stupid anti-Americans. OK, we've fucked up a good few times, but it's not like the rest of the fucking world is any better......let's see the track record of your home country, Serbian Baranja

Good in comparison doesn't mean good. I kill one person, I'm not as bad a Charels Manson or Hitler or Stalin, but I am still a murderer, I still am punished.

Nice list of one-sided anti-American propaganist bullshit. Some of the claims are justified, some are heavily spun to make America look bad. For example, April 7 2004 US destroys a mosque. Please don't bother to mention that enemy troops were fighting from the mosque. That destroys your argument. If it's used as a military site then it's no longer given the protection accorded to a religious site. If you say where you come from, given some time and research we could probably do a similar hatchet job on your nation.

You have disproved one of his claims. Congradulations, the rest must be false as well (sarcasm). You claiming it is just bullshit without any evedence such (by which I mean explain each and every one) is just as bad as him not providing any backing for them. Besides, even if you could explain away half of them, there is still more then enough to condem the United States.

Every time I hear such bullshit propaganda claims of America being evil I just want to give up on being decent and show the world what damage we really are capable of inflicting on our enemies. These threads are so fucking counterproductive. All they do is make Americans angry and xenophobic. Of course the people who post them are flawed individuals who feel weak and intimidated by US economic and military strength, and only seek to demonize America and play the victim card because their own ideologies have proven to be failures in the real world.

Bullshit. Why not have an intelligent debate instead of lumping all those who disagree with you into some imaginary bullshit group. Posts like these make me lose respect for the poster, and no one will take you seriously.

In Official Development Aid, the US gave 19 billion dollars in 2004, 25% of world total. This is a doubling since Bush came into office. The US gives 60% of all world food aid, saving million from hunger every day.

Unlike most nations, the ODA is only a small part of American Aid. In total, Americans (mostly the private sector) give some 60 billion $ each year, again dwarfing any other nation. Scholarships given by American Universities to poor students from the thirds world amount to 1.3 billion dollars, the same as the entire foreign aid given each year by Switzerland!

Bill Gates donates millions to charities, helps many many people. If tomarrow, he raped and killed a 12 year old girl, people would be screaming for his blood, and he would most likely be executed. The good doesn't rease the bad, by any stretch of the imagination. That's like me getting up in front of a judge and saying "I'm sorry I robed the liquor store, but you shouldn't send me to jail, because I gave a 20 to a homless guy and every sunday for the past 10 years I've volenteered at the lockal soup kictian"

Eeeeh, a little butt-pyramid never hurt anyone. :p Not mention it was nothing compared to what Saddam's regime did to its own people, nor the fact that they're all blowing each other up over there now.

One, bad is bad, doesn't matter if someone else did worse. Also, it's a lie of the media that a little "butt-pyrimid" is all that went on. I've read reports of people's fingernails being pulled off, people beaten to death, shocked, and all maner of psychological torture, the kind of stuff that will scar you for the rest of your like and drive you to suicide.

I'd be hard pressed to whole-heartedly disagree with your argument.
I am an American. I am a patriot. I even served in the military However, I am also a realist. I'll assert that America is neither good nor evil, but that America has immense potential for greatness.
For example, I noticed that you didn't include Kosovo. The Kosovars are still, as I understand things, without a stable power source while UN building are illuminated and warm, but they still praise us for our intervention. We gained nothing to speak of from our action in Kosovo but the appreciation of the people.
The greatest problem the American government faces - not to mention the greatest mistake the American people ever committed - is bipartisanism. We desperately need to follow Germany's lead by adopting and empowering a multitude of political parties in order to broaden the scope of representation and number of perspectives present to view a problem.
"The government which governs best governs least." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
My point is, it's not all bad over here. The place needs a lot of work. The government is clearly growing more and more corrupt while hypocritically preaching family values, greed is tainting everything, religious intolerance is becoming the new black plague, and our education system is nascent. We need a drastic change, and we need someone to get through to the rest of us that this change is more than merely imperitive. However, there are brilliant people here, and people who don't seek out death and riches.
I'll say this not to dig for respect and praise, but to avoid any character assault. My combat-related duties in the military did not involve taking a single life, but protecting others from harm. Every mother, every father, every son, every daughter, every brother, and every sister came home safely under my watch, and that is something I can be proud of.

Thank you, for both your post and your service.

If you dont' see the legitimacy of the Afghanistan invasion you're obviously just racist against Americans. The Taliban sponsored and protected a terrorist group that led a brutal and unprovoked attack on the US civilian population. I think we've gone way too easy on Afghanistan. I also think you're beyond reasoning with, so I guess I'll ignore you from here on out.

Yes, but who trained the group in terrorism, and set them apon their enemies? Hint: You and I both live there.

I'm not saying that the invasion was not justified, but that we have just as much guilt in sponcering and fostering global terrorism as anyone else.

I think you made yourself very clear when you listed legitimate military actions to protect people as war crimes. Now I think you're just trying to hide your bigotry.

You can't just make unsupported claims. Go through, and list how each and every one of those actions, or even most of them, were moraly justified, in non-vague terms, then I'll believe you. Otherwise, you are just blowing around alot of hot air.

There was plenty of proof that Al Quaeda commited the 9/11 attack among many others against US targets here at home and abroad. The taliban didn't just ask for proof, they rejected any proof offered. In addition to that, Al Quaeda was a part of the Taliban's military, like the foreign legion is to France. As such it was an attack BY Afghanistan against the US using it's elite foreign legion.

You didn't answer the question of

"If Ricardo Lagos of Chile demanded that Bush hand over Henry Kissinger for his participation in the takeover of the murderous dictator Augusto Pinochet, would you support a Chilean invasion of the United States?"

LMAO WOW WHAT A DUMASS... some of this stuff is atrocities yah. But dude seriously.... Us troops harass rwanda refugees in congo........maybe you didnt mention how much aide we send to rwanda or how the people who were harassed were part of groups that iunno BURNT ENTIRE VILLIAGES OF LIVING PEOPLE INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN, but nah, that wouldnt sound anti american to list that....if you are from ANY european nation you dont have the right to list any of this... well are next fun little one US forcefully disarm albanian rebles.....Could they be the same ones who like bombing greece? yes you dumbass they are. Please say what country you are from id like to here it... and i could go on pointing out all the retarted stuff you posted but itd be a waste of my time.

One, you come off like a flaiming idiot in this post. But beyond that, I have already shown that good by comparison does not mean good.

The US doesn't play host to an elite army of foreigners that they send overseas to strike at foreign governments.

It's called the CIA (except for the forgien part)

American continent was discovered by Columbus in 1492, actually Vikings were there 1 000 years before. So before 1942 there was no america, at that time Serbia already had it's country, together with Kosovo (not to mention that it survived 500 years under Turks)

How can you discover a place that already has an advanced indiginus popluation?

Read the post carefully. Did I say that we were the best? No, I said that we were the most powerfull, which is an undeniable fact. Our military is more technologically advance than anyone else's, and has enough numbers to stand up to any nation and completely evicerate their military. Our economy is still the biggest in the world.

That doesn't make us the all around best because some nations have more respect for human rights, some nations have lower crime rates, etc. There are alot of different criterea that can be used to judge who is the best, but there are only a few criterea that judge the most powerfull, and by those criterea the US is undeniably the most powerfull nation.

Thank you, at least, for not equating military power with being "the best."

The US regularly uses proxy armies. They did so in Nicaragua during the 1980s and are doing so in Iraq right now.

The sponsoring of coups is aggression akin to a terrorist attack, especially when the result is an authoritarian dictatorship that brutalizes its people.

Exactly

The Taliban used Al Quaeda troops as elite forces in fighting the Northern Alliance. In fact, an Al Quaeda suicide bomb squad posing as reporters killed Achmed Shah Masood, the most highly respected general of the Northern Alliance.

The CIA trained Osama Bin Laden in terrorism, and helped organise and train Al Queida. Also, the Bush regime funded the Taliban up to a couple of months before 9/11, we helped fund their fight against the Northern Alliance.

You mean to tell me that civilians actually died in a war? Shocking!

Women can go to see doctors now. They can go to school. Widows are allowed to go to work instead of being forced to beg on the street and watch their children starvet to death. I'd say we've done some good. We just need to put enough money and expertise into the country to modernize it and make it functional again.

Are you talking about Afganistan? True, some things are better, but some things are the same, and some are worse. Many parts of the coutry, the US gave back to the drug lords and warlords, and women can not, in fact, see doctors, go to school, get a job if their husband dies, et cetera

Hello pot, I'm kettle. Call me black?

Veyr funny; but ignorant people are people who do not/do not want/or cannot see the whole truth. I have only presented a part of the real truth about america, nothing else. Maybe you don't accept it oe don't like it, I don't know nor do I care. I have been introduced to all bad things that my country has done, and I am ashamed as a Serb. All I want here is that Americans and other people see the complete image of America. I don't want anyone to hate it, just to know the truth. Truth will always be my guidance. I know that you can't blame a nation for its' countys' crimes, bus by the same logics, that very nation has to be aware of those crimes, just like my nation is aware of the crimes that Serbs have done. If we only look one side (whether you are american or serb or any other nationality) then you are deceiving yourself. If you want to live like that, ok go and think that USA is the best, most democratic and a nation that has been doing good and nothing but good throgh history. The truth is something else, no matter what you believe. Many people have died because of the USA. Many people have died because of my country, and all others; but if we live like that is not true and accept only the things we like then we are not good people. Dead cannot speak for themselves, that's why the truth has to be known. No matter who committed a crime.

Well I'll end my part in this childish post. Just thought I'd add my two cents.
This America hating shit comes from someone that doesnt live here and only knows what he is told or reads.


I'll say this in closing:

Does America ROCK?

YOUR DAMN RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!

ALL HAIL THE RED WHITE AND BLUE!!!
AND IF YOU DONT LIKE IT....HEY FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!
:upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:
:sniper: :mp5:


I live in the US, and I see first hand how fucked up shit is. I beileve that you are the one who believes everything you hear from the governemnt.

And in responce to your childish ending, I will give one of my own:

"Fuck America"

NOTE: The above does not represent my views, nor is it directed at anyone but SirDouglas. The point was, he's ganna be childish and offencive, I will show him what it is like. Honestly, I would never say that under any other situations, I don't believe it, please don't get offended, except for if you're SirDouglas, in which case I want you to be terribly offended.

Veyr funny; but ignorant people are people who do not/do not want/or cannot see the whole truth. I have only presented a part of the real truth about america, nothing else. Maybe you don't accept it oe don't like it, I don't know nor do I care. I have been introduced to all bad things that my country has done, and I am ashamed as a Serb. All I want here is that Americans and other people see the complete image of America. I don't want anyone to hate it, just to know the truth. Truth will always be my guidance. I know that you can't blame a nation for its' countys' crimes, bus by the same logics, that very nation has to be aware of those crimes, just like my nation is aware of the crimes that Serbs have done. If we only look one side (whether you are american or serb or any other nationality) then you are deceiving yourself. If you want to live like that, ok go and think that USA is the best, most democratic and a nation that has been doing good and nothing but good throgh history. The truth is something else, no matter what you believe. Many people have died because of the USA. Many people have died because of my country, and all others; but if we live like that is not true and accept only the things we like then we are not good people. Dead cannot speak for themselves, that's why the truth has to be known. No matter who committed a crime.

::claps::

I never said that my country is perfect, I never said some of my people have not committed war crimes, and I am not saying that my country rocks.

The only purpose of this thread was to show the truth about what America really is. Yes, America has good people as well, good bands, good movies, bloody goodlooking ladies but it is also responisble for several millions of people that died under american bombs. GET IT???


Now, do you mind telling us your ultimate purpose, please? So what if even more people hate America? What sort of satisfaction will you truly achieve by this? If any, why? It's not as if you'll change the world through an online post?
Don't get me wrong. America is far from perfect. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to leave far quicker than anyone who dislikes the place.
Now, look at things from a slightly more American perspective, just for argument's sake. You're attacking our home, and you're getting all defensive and probably angry when we even remotely defend it. And of course some inflammatory remarks will fly as emotions grow heated.
Further, American patriot I may be, I also like Germany. After World War II, they really seemed to have shaped themselves into a decent nation, and with minimal assastance from the outside, but they never lost their reputation for efficiency. I respect that. I've been involved in wargames with Germans. Those guys seriously know what they're doing. Why no assault on them? Let's look at the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, the conflicts between the IRA and the Orangemen, or Charlemagne. How many people have been butchered in the name of God? Will your next target be all of Christendom?
Do you see where I'm going with this? Your argument, while not ENTIRELY false, is entirely biased and unjustly prejudicial. You, a SERB, listed off conflicts during our own CIVIL WAR, and called them atrocities. Now, let's not get into hypocracy. Other conflicts listed were during World War II, but America is criminal, not Hitler (he's not Germany's fault; I forgive you, Deutschland) or Mousolinni. How about that? Do you mind justifying this to me? I'm all ears.

My aim is not to fight with anyone, but to show the truth which is usually hidden; especially from americans themselves.

Any American with half a brain knows the US is just as messed up, even to its citizens as it can be good. The only ones who dont realize this are the half wits and arguing with them is like betting on a one legged horse. Its stupid, and its getting you nowhere. Just a thought.

The usual American response to criticism seems to be either jealousy or even more bizarrely, that people who don't like the US "hate freedom".

Id also like to point out here, that most foreigners dont criticize. They bash. Theres a big difference. Theres a difference between saying "The US is doing XYZ and thats so wrong because of *insert reason here*" and saying that "the US sucks and all its citizens are idiots." Which you see enough of both to make most americans naturally defensive.

I think plenty of people are aware of their countries faults, but you still have people making threads and post that are basically constantly hammering it in and its just silly and its gonna go nowhere.

You can't just make unsupported claims. Go through, and list how each and every one of those actions, or even most of them, were moraly justified, in non-vague terms, then I'll believe you. Otherwise, you are just blowing around alot of hot air.
So wait... if someone makes a listing that shows how "evil" the US is and then someone can show that several of their supposed reasons are totally one sided or justified, that does nothing to cast the listing itself, and by extension, the authors credibility into doubt? A lil bit over accepting are we? Take a lil bit of that suspicion towards everything the US does and extend it to others. Itll help alot. [sarcasm]

That said, does the US rock? hell yeah. Do I trust the current government? noooooooo. Do I think we can recover in the future? yeaaah. Is the US perfect? Nope, and neither is anyone or anyplace else. So this whole thing is pointless except to attract trolls.

You, a SERB, listed off conflicts during our own CIVIL WAR, and called them atrocities. Now, let's not get into hypocracy.

He's not being hypocritical, because he did not do those things, nor did he defend his country. He has said he is ashamed of them, he acknowlendges his government's faults. He'd by a hypocrite if he attackes the US, while at the same time defending Serbia. He did not, therefor is not being a hypocrite.

You don't inherit the sins of your government just by being born under it.

Reality of it all:

People die.

People die because of the cross fire.

People arn't purposly targeted, they sometimes either get in the way or there IS a miss-fire.

----

Most of the time when other nations bomb another nation because they want to just kill the people or take over the land.

Have we taken over any of the land permanently? No, we may have " mandated " the land but we only do that in order to help rebuild everything. Every single war we have been involved in, even if we said " fuck you " and didn't really get involved physically, we have payed every single nation involved money and blood and sweat to get everything back up.

Basically everyone, Pro Americans and Anti Americans, are fed by bull shit. Bull shit is whats for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and a good ol' midnight snack. But the people who are over saturated with bull shit are those who are Anti Americans. They try to find everything America has been involved in and draws it out of proportions.

A few things on the nations we have " agressivley attacked ":

China, back in the forties, was actually neutral but pro American. We didn't attack them though, oh no we didn't, we helped them. Well not America as a whole but a shitload of Pilots ran off to help China, because giving China money to build forces to destroy the Japanese invaders just wasn't enough. Later when we attacked China ( even though we REALLY didn't attack China, we were taking the bullets for other nations because they did something dumb ), it was mostly influenced to stop them from being a " bunch of assholes " and because our objective had failed, which was to make sure the Chinese Nationalists won the Civil War which was paused for WWII ( which everyone knows that the Chinese Communists started making propaganda saying the Nationalists were spying for Japan for a future invasion, so right after WWII almost all the Chinese Neutralists became Communist and the Nationalists lost and most of them went to Taiwan which later broke off and is now showing that a new Nationalist/Communist Civil War in China is going to happen again, yet I consider Taiwan its own nation so it'll just be another regular war..wait..arn't all wars Civil Wars? ).

Now, lets take Civilian Casulties caused by oh...Britain? Or France...or no wait, who killed the most Civilians in the " cross fire " during most of these wars? If you'd read into most wars, it is mostly the nation America is against. The nations we fight get desperate knowing were going to win, so they start bombing there own Civilians blaming it on the " American Infidells/Invaders/Agressors/Pigs/Etc ".

Now, lets take video tapes released by " Terror " groups in Iraq...what do they mainly say? They mainly say they will kill ANYONE needed in order to bring an end to the " Infidell's Occupation ". That ANYONE mostly contains Iraqi Soldiers and Iraqi Civilians.

I read a thread somewhere...because it is true...medias around the world, I am not saying Conservative or Liberal ( but mostly it IS Liberal medias ), always reword storys. Oh like....

Omar checks his backseat to see if he had all of the bombs prepped and ready. He then said a quick prayer, and punched the gas pedal with a cell phone in hand. He drove into a crowd of Iraqi children playing ball, and blew them all up.

REWORDED VERSION YOU WILL MOST LIKELY HEAR FROM A LOT OF MEDIAS:

Today, American Coalition Forces bomb a school house full of children. Bush tells why at 9.

---

And one more thing:

If you really think we do such things in all of our wars, like in Iraq, then why don't you fucking go there and watch the war on a first person basis?

If you TRUELY believe American soldiers enjoy shooting at little Children, then fly to Iraq or swim if you have too ( yes long swim, note find another safer way..then again you deserve to drown/get devoured by a shark/etc ) and go there and grab some popcorn and look at who is doing what.

Before ANYONE of you say Americans are doing good or Americans are doing bad, please, RECORD everything from actually being there with out editing in.

But of course...thats if ANYONE of you have the balls to actually get credability to do that. You'd much rather cram your fat fingers into a keyboard bitching day in and day out about America bombing houses for pleasure, even when you don't even know what the fuck is going on.

Truely, all of you really need to shut up, because all your going to do is cause another generation to hate each other and cause racism and hate crimes and more wars, but hell..you're just going to blame the next generation after them like all of the generations before us which have droven us to behave this way.

But then again, were all destined to one day obliterate one another off the face of this meager pathetic planet.

And please, read the whole damn post before you reply and don't act one way just because a few words, also I'm not going to reply to this because I atleast have a life that is quite bussy right now. Cya.

He's not being hypocritical, because he did not do those things, nor did he defend his country. He has said he is ashamed of them, he acknowlendges his government's faults. He'd by a hypocrite if he attackes the US, while at the same time defending Serbia. He did not, therefor is not being a hypocrite.

You don't inherit the sins of your government just by being born under it.

Once again, why are we assaulting America?

Katzistanza,

If your American and America sucks so bad MOVE!
I have a grat job, a nice roof over my head and a great family.
Isn't America great?

My previous post explains everything. Now I am leaving. Good day/night to everyone here.

So wait... if someone makes a listing that shows how "evil" the US is and then someone can show that several of their supposed reasons are totally one sided or justified, that does nothing to cast the listing itself, and by extension, the authors credibility into doubt? A lil bit over accepting are we? Take a lil bit of that suspicion towards everything the US does and extend it to others. Itll help alot. [sarcasm]

I don't blindly accept everything on the list, or the reasons it states, but many of those things are historic fact that you could look up. I wasn't accapeing the list as dogma, but some of the stuff on it is true, and demands explination. For many of those things, there is no good explaniation.

I don't see how someone should be allowed to stand up in court and say how him committing rape isn't so bad because other people have committed murder...

If the worst thing that ever happens to me is to have some women fondling my genitals, I'll consider myself to have led a charmed life. ;)

Once again, why are we assaulting America?

I believe I have, for the most part, refrained from attack the US very much on this thread, my post was simply pointing out that it was not hypocritic for him to do so.

To answer your question: Because people think it's so much better than it accully is, because of people like Sir Douglas, because I believe that the US uses military power and terrorism far to often, because I believe that the good does not erase the bad, because I believe that the US has to much blood on it's hands, because I belive the US gov does not take care of it's own people as it should, because US culture is packed with consumerism, with materialism, with greed, with religious hypocracy. Now, I don't only see the bad, but the bad is all you asked me to list. Please don't think I'm one of those one-sided "America sucks all over!!!" people, I do see both sides, just in my opinion, the bad outweighs the good.

On another note, I to think we need more people like you in this country, from what I can tell from, your posts.

Katzistanza,

If your American and America sucks so bad MOVE!
I have a grat job, a nice roof over my head and a great family.
Isn't America great?

I also have a comfortable life here, but I can look beyond my own bubble.

And I don't just move because:

1) I speak no other laguages
2) My whole family is here, I do not what to leave them
3) I'd rather stay, try to accentuate the good, and change the bad. Make a difference, try to help people, instead of just running away from the problem to a comfortable life somewhere else with like-minded people. That would be cowardly, and I am no coward.

Sigh.

First things first: I am an 18-year-old American girl, born and raised. I have never been "proud to be American", for the same reason that I have never been "proud to be human" or "proud to have brown hair." Things one is born into are not necessarily things to automatically be proud of. If the actions of this country (as a whole; I acknowledge that there are plenty of individuals who AREN'T the same as everyone else) had earned it, then I would be proud to live here.

I'm not.

Taking a cue from George Carlin, I'm not proud to be American, but I'm sure glad I live in the US. At least this way, they aren't going to bomb MY ass for whatever reasons they cook up, be they noble, true, or totally batshit insane. (Yes, I'm trying to be humorous and honest at the same time. Gasp!)

Just the same, I find the purpose of this thread largely silly. Nevermind the nationality of the thread-starter or the responding posters. Anyone with even the tiniest morsel of common sense in their heads--American or otherwise--will tell you that the US has screwed up many, many times, as has just about every other nation in existence today (and those that used to). We killed more of our own people in the Civil War than we have in most wars elsewhere, for no good reason. At the same time some of US military actions HAVE helped to save and improve lives.

The bottom line is that if you want to bash one country, you'd better be able to 1) Back it up and 2) Understand that any other country is just as worthy and deserving of bashing. Just because one country is currently more active in bashworthy enterprises does not mean they are the worst thing ever to taint the earth with their presence.

My previous post explains everything. Now I am leaving. Good day/night to everyone here.

Why, is it time to go slaughter some Croatians or Kosovoans?

Friggin' hypocrite!

World - 10,000 BC to 1776 AD: Ruled by various tyrants around the globe.

QED. Thank God for the United States.

Of the examples you gave, some are truly injustices on our part, but many are legitimate military actions that served to promote justice and freedom.

It's good to see an American admit that their government has done wrong, but I would like to know which of these actions really did "promote justice and freedom" other than in Yugoslavia?
Many were done to serve the ambitions of rich supporters of the government in power of the day. Others were to remove the leader of countries that the US had already put into power and couldn't control anymore.

Veyr funny; but ignorant people are people who do not/do not want/or cannot see the whole truth. I have only presented a part of the real truth about america, nothing else. Maybe you don't accept it oe don't like it, I don't know nor do I care. I have been introduced to all bad things that my country has done, and I am ashamed as a Serb. All I want here is that Americans and other people see the complete image of America. I don't want anyone to hate it, just to know the truth. Truth will always be my guidance. I know that you can't blame a nation for its' countys' crimes, bus by the same logics, that very nation has to be aware of those crimes, just like my nation is aware of the crimes that Serbs have done. If we only look one side (whether you are american or serb or any other nationality) then you are deceiving yourself. If you want to live like that, ok go and think that USA is the best, most democratic and a nation that has been doing good and nothing but good throgh history. The truth is something else, no matter what you believe. Many people have died because of the USA. Many people have died because of my country, and all others; but if we live like that is not true and accept only the things we like then we are not good people. Dead cannot speak for themselves, that's why the truth has to be known. No matter who committed a crime.


My previous post explains everything. Now I am leaving. Good day/night to everyone here.

This answers nothing. If you wish to offer up the TRUTH of America, offer up reasons why we do that which we do. It's hard to argue, with weight, against the notion that the recent/on-going war in Iraq was/is for anything other than oil and pride. There's truth. Yes, we bombed a mosque. The contents of said mosque were shooting Americans. There's truth. Yes, we got ourselves involved in the Vietnam War. This was primarily to stop the spread of Communism during the Cold War. There's truth. Yes, Americans killed a great many people, civilians included, in our conflict in Mogadishu, Somalia. Americans fired in retaliation to - and in defense against - an assault on American CIVILIANS present solely for the distribution of food and other HUMANITARIAN aide. Many of the aggressors were armed civilians, thus blurring the lines and differentiating identities of peaceful civilians and combatants. There's truth. Americans have committed a great many evils, but we've also done some noticeable level of good. We run a spectrum of good and evil just like everyone and everywhere else. If you want truth, there's truth.

I'm going to make one post on this.

America's done some seriously, hideously awful things, overthrown governments and entered wars it shouldn't with little to no justification (Spanish-American War, anyone?), but like we learn in history class, every action has an unending string of causes and effects that has to be untangled to look at an event. An event standing on it's own can look like and be claimed as anything. I'm American, and I'm certainly not a fan of many things that happened on that list, particularly the CIA actions and hyperactive foriegn policy that brought about support of France in Indochina and lead to the Vietnam War. I can say that I'm ashamed about our involvement in many of the issues and conflicts that SB said, and that the greater, more confusing list that features entries like this:

1775- American troops invade Quebec, Canada, during the American Revolution, but are repulsed.

did not come from him, but someone else.

But honestly. You're on a Nationstates forum. Just give it a rest, won't you?

Once again, he never killed anyone, he never defended killing anyone, thus he is not a hypocrite.

You are worse than him. You are racist. He never accused Americans of sharing the sins of their government. That was an asshat thing to say, Hoos

You are worse than him. You are racist

You don't know that. Actually, you know absolutely nothing about me, and whatever you think you may know about me, you're probably wrong about it.

World - 10,000 BC to 1776 AD: Ruled by various tyrants around the globe.

QED. Thank God for the United States.

Another asshat thing to say.

It's because of posts like this that people like the thread started feels the need to start threads like this.

Everyone already knows the good, he was putting out there some of the bad that people don't know.

You don't know that. Actually, you know absolutely nothing about me, and whatever you think you may know about me, you're probably wrong about it.

True, I don't know if you are a racist, I'm sorry for making that assumption. What I should have said was that was a racist statement. Once again, my apologies

Another asshat thing to say.

It's because of posts like this that people like the thread started feels the need to start threads like this.

Everyone already knows the good, he was putting out there some of the bad that people don't know.

Still, what he said is fundamentally true. Prior to the American Revolution, the world was ruled primarily by tyrants. Much of it still is. Whatever bad the U.S. may have done during its relatively brief history is nothing compared to what most other countries have done. However, the past can't be changed. It's time for everyone to "get into the now."

And what kind of a word is "asshat," anyway? :p

True, I don't know if you are a racist, I'm sorry for making that assumption. What I should have said was that was a racist statement. Once again, my apologies

What, that Serbs have slaughtered (or would you prefer "ethnically cleansed"?) Croatians and Kosovoans? That's not a "racist statement," that is a FACT!

He's not being hypocritical, because he did not do those things, nor did he defend his country. He has said he is ashamed of them, he acknowlendges his government's faults. He'd by a hypocrite if he attackes the US, while at the same time defending Serbia. He did not, therefor is not being a hypocrite.

You don't inherit the sins of your government just by being born under it.

I can understand this point. While neither right nor wrong, I don't agree with your definition of hypocrasy. This; however, is a matter of opinions based on definition and semantics, which are always gray.


I believe I have, for the most part, refrained from attack the US very much on this thread, my post was simply pointing out that it was not hypocritic for him to do so.

To answer your question: Because people think it's so much better than it accully is, because of people like Sir Douglas, because I believe that the US uses military power and terrorism far to often, because I believe that the good does not erase the bad, because I believe that the US has to much blood on it's hands, because I belive the US gov does not take care of it's own people as it should, because US culture is packed with consumerism, with materialism, with greed, with religious hypocracy. Now, I don't only see the bad, but the bad is all you asked me to list. Please don't think I'm one of those one-sided "America sucks all over!!!" people, I do see both sides, just in my opinion, the bad outweighs the good.

On another note, I to think we need more people like you in this country, from what I can tell from, your posts.

Once again, I disagree on a basis of opinion rather than fact. I still hold to my first statement. America is neither good nor evil, but has the potential for greatness. Realizing this potential requires a change in leadership and application of this new leadership.
Thank you, by the way, for the answer and the compliment.

OOC: America, fuck yeah!
IC:I'm getting tired of all these stupid anti-Americans. OK, we've fucked up a good few times, but it's not like the rest of the fucking world is any better......let's see the track record of your home country, Serbian Baranja

A good few times, DID YOU SEE THAT LIST?!

I like the word "asshat." I forget where I heard it, but I like it :)

I believe that his implied meaning was the the US is a shining becon of freedom, the only such becon, and before the US there was only darkness. This is not so. There have always been both despotic and enlightened societies, and there always will be. To some, US means a roof over their heads, a chance to make a better life for themselves and their families, for others, it is an opresive hand that manipulats their countries, murders their families, and keeps them in squalar. There are many other coutries more despotic and many others who provide their people a higher standard of living. There are countries that grant their people less freedoms, there are countries that grant their people more. The US is not unique amongust all nations of history, as the post seemed to imply.

God bless everybody, no exceptions!

Not a difficult thing to do. Paraguay is a land-locked country. :p

Just because a country is surrounded by other countries doesn't mean it can't be blocked by ships. There are nearly 9 major river systems leading into or out of Paraguay

What, that Serbs have slaughtered (or would you prefer "ethnically cleansed"?) Croatians and Kosovoans? That's not a "racist statement," that is a FACT!

The Serbian gov, and some Serbian soldiers did, not ever Serbian did, nor did every Serbian support it.

I can understand this point. While neither right nor wrong, I don't agree with your definition of hypocrasy. This; however, is a matter of opinions based on definition and semantics, which are always gray.




Once again, I disagree on a basis of opinion rather than fact. I still hold to my first statement. America is neither good nor evil, but has the potential for greatness. Realizing this potential requires a change in leadership and application of this new leadership.
Thank you, by the way, for the answer and the compliment.

Thank you for not assumeing opinions are facts, and for being one of the few civil debators here

I like the word "asshat." I forget where I heard it, but I like it :)

I believe that his implied meaning was the the US is a shining becon of freedom, the only such becon, and before the US there was only darkness. This is not so. There have always been both despotic and enlightened societies, and there always will be. To some, US means a roof over their heads, a chance to make a better life for themselves and their families, for others, it is an opresive hand that manipulats their countries, murders their families, and keeps them in squalar. There are many other coutries more despotic and many others who provide their people a higher standard of living. There are countries that grant their people less freedoms, there are countries that grant their people more. The US is not unique amongust all nations of history, as the post seemed to imply.

God bless everybody, no exceptions!


That, and I believe some of us are forgetting about the Republics of Rome and Greece, millenium prior to A) America and B) Christ. Freedom, liberty and suffrage are all archaic concept.
For those who slept through English and history class: suffrage is the right to vote, not torture.
I like "asshat" too. I think I'll steal that one.

The Serbian gov, and some Serbian soldiers did, not ever Serbian did, nor did every Serbian support it.

Not every American is behind the war in Iraq, either, yet we all get blamed for it. Did the people who bombed the London tube care if the riders on the trains supported Blair's government's support of that war? Of course not, they simply decided to blame all English men and women for the actions of their government.

My point is that this "blame game" is a two-way street. You can't start attacking one country's record while ignoring your own. Our Serbian friend wants to have it both ways.

Another asshat thing to say.

It's because of posts like this that people like the thread started feels the need to start threads like this.

Everyone already knows the good, he was putting out there some of the bad that people don't know.

The first post was an "asshat", I thought I would respond in kind. A lot of that "bad" was also pathetically anti-US biased opinion.

How was the ***UN*** going into Korea from 1950-1953 bad?
Bombing Libya (ONCE!) in 1986, after it's record of terrorism, esp. the disco bombing in Berlin? (Including assistance to the IRA, PLO and ETA!) Never that "Line of Death" garbage...
Taking down the Taleban in Afghanistan, whom blew up ancient Buddas, persecuted women and non-Islamics, and even banned children from flying kites?
Removing Noriega from Panama, whom was known to freely allow the drug trade?
Finally doing SOMETHING about the half-a-decade war in Jugoslavia?!?

Asshat indeed. :rolleyes:
(note: I'm not going to debate each one, this is just a top-of-my-head thing.)

I'm not saying that the US has never done anything questionable or wrong. But that post was as over the top as me now posting this:

Coming soon to your town!!
Next tour dates to include Iran, Syria, North Korea, and Venezuela!!
http://www.foxvalleyhistory.org/WWII/images/flag-raising.jpg


...over the top? Yes. And so was that "asshat" first post.

That, and I believe some of us are forgetting about the Republics of Rome and Greece, millenium prior to A) America and B) Christ. Freedom, liberty and suffrage are all archaic concept.
.

Before we start waxing too nostalgic about them, let's not forget that ancient Greece and Rome also waged wars of conquest and practiced slavery. Also, suffrage was far from universal. So, America's past sins are no worse than anyone else's.

American Myth #1

America was not the first democracy*.

Athens had a representative democracy in 200 BC (and before). Representative democracies being far more democratic that delegate democracies (wot we in the west have).

Britain got rid of its king in 1646. Parliament effectively secured power for itself (it was then legally convineient to bring back a monarch...).



American Truth #1

Home of the Simpsons. Bravo.

American Myth #1

America was not the first democracy*.

Athens had a representative democracy in 200 BC (and before). Representative democracies being far more democratic that delegate democracies (wot we in the west have).

Britain got rid of its king in 1646. Parliament effectively secured power for itself (it was then legally convineient to bring back a monarch...).



American Truth #1

Home of the Simpsons. Bravo.

America is a Republic, not a Democracy. :)

Thanks. We apologise about the Budweiser.

American Myth #1

America was not the first democracy*.

Athens had a representative democracy in 200 BC (and before). Representative democracies being far more democratic that delegate democracies (wot we in the west have).

Britain got rid of its king in 1646. Parliament effectively secured power for itself (it was then legally convineient to bring back a monarch...).



American Truth #1

Home of the Simpsons. Bravo.

I can't recall anyone claiming that America was the world's first democracy, other than you just now.

Not every American is behind the war in Iraq, either, yet we all get blamed for it. Did the people who bombed the London tube care if the riders on the trains supported Blair's government's support of that war? Of course not, they simply decided to blame all English men and women for the actions of their government.

My point is that this "blame game" is a two-way street. You can't start attacking one country's record while ignoring your own. Our Serbian friend wants to have it both ways.

No, he acknowledges that his government is shit, and says he is ashamed of the stuff it has done.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything in your post

Bashing any country for any conflict is stupid. The real cause of most conflicts is population pressure. It builds up until the ruling faction, ruler, etc. gives in and war breaks out. Both World Wars started from this, as well as Korea, Vietnam and Iraq. Even the War on Terror is caused by population pressure. You see, american free enterprise always needs to expand, just like any country. With oil reserves in the Middle East, they found a new market. Indigionous people benefiting from the business became consumers, bringing more businesses in. But, the new foreign influence gave pressure on local markets. Pressure began to build on supporting local structures as opposed to foreign ones. So, as you can see, terrorism didn't evolve from a hatred for democracy or freedom. another part of the pressure was created by the Cold War. We decided not to try anymore police actions such ass Vietnam or Korea, and instead decided to support and strengthen Western-friendly factions in areas of future Soviet influence. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US no longer supported these countries, creating population pressure from a deflating and struggling economy.

America is a Republic, not a Democracy. :)

Thanks. We apologise about the Budweiser.

Actually, I'm not sure that a true democracy ever existed. Athens is often cited, but the franchise was limited to a small minority of its residents (I avoided using the term "citizens," because in Athens, the term signified someone who could vote, namely, a male property holder).

I am back.

Your remarks look like they come from someone, well, not very well informed. You speak of ethnic clansing in Kosovo and Croatia, hmmm; have you heard about Oluja action taken by Croats and supported by America in which 250 000 Serbs had to escape to Serbia?

Or what about native americans? who almost destroyed their whole civilization and put them into preservations? or what about black people? which country had segregation laws?

Svandinavia, pre-Christaization, and pre-kingdoms forming, was, for quite a long time, a working, true democracy, or anarchy, or whatever it is you wanna call it.

No, he acknowledges that his government is shit, and says he is ashamed of the stuff it has done.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything in your post

My argument would have been completely and utterly different had he specified "the American government". I see an attack on America as also an attack on Americans, or at least American patriots, which is an assault on me, as well. Logically, this becomes a debate of American versus, in this case, Serb; people versus people rather than the involvement or specification of institutions. I love my country; I despise her dictatorship.

I want to thank you for your words. You seem like a reasonable man/woman. I'd like to talk to you, outside this forum.

My argument would have been completely and utterly different had he specified "the American government". I see an attack on America as also an attack on Americans, or at least American patriots, which is an assault on me, as well. Logically, this becomes a debate of American versus, in this case, Serb; people versus people rather than the involvement or specification of institutions. I love my country; I despise her dictatorship.

I see. Ok, I understand now.

I believe somewhere that (s)he said that they have nothing against American people, it's the gov, but I can see what you're saying.

Serbian Baranja:
Thank you, I try. It's man, by the way.

I'll acculy be in Europe pretty soon, just not Serbia. The closest I get is Greece (the land of my grandparents). I've already set up meetings with a few people on this foum while I'm over there, on the East side of the Atlantic.

"I am back."

You weren't missed.

"Your remarks look like they come from someone, well, not very well informed."

I'm at least as well informed as you. Probably more so.

"You speak of ethnic clansing in Kosovo and Croatia, hmmm; have you heard about Oluja action taken by Croats and supported by America in which 250 000 Serbs had to escape to Serbia?"

Supported how? Militarily? If not, then it's just your internal problem.

"Or what about native americans? who almost destroyed their whole civilization and put them into preservations?"

You mean "reservations." That's OK, I can make allowances for your English, it's certainly better than my Serbian! Let's see, who did this? The Spanish, Portuguese, French, and English, among others. And this was before the U.S. was even a country.

" or what about black people? which country had segregation laws?"

South Africa and pre-Zimbabwe Rhodesia, among others. They seem to have been forgiven by the international community for having done so, even though they practiced segregation long after the U.S. had abolished it.

Time for you to crawl back into your hole.

::sigh:: Seems that this will now degrade into insults and ideology flung back and forth between Hoos and Serbian.

Once more: BETTER BY COMPARISON DOESN'T MEAN GOOD!

"I am back."

You weren't missed.

"Your remarks look like they come from someone, well, not very well informed."

I'm at least as well informed as you. Probably more so.

"You speak of ethnic clansing in Kosovo and Croatia, hmmm; have you heard about Oluja action taken by Croats and supported by America in which 250 000 Serbs had to escape to Serbia?"

Supported how? Militarily? If not, then it's just your internal problem.

"Or what about native americans? who almost destroyed their whole civilization and put them into preservations?"

You mean "reservations." That's OK, I can make allowances for your English, it's certainly better than my Serbian! Let's see, who did this? The Spanish, Portuguese, French, and English, among others. And this was before the U.S. was even a country.

" or what about black people? which country had segregation laws?"

South Africa and pre-Zimbabwe Rhodesia, among others. They seem to have been forgiven by the international community for having done so, even though they practiced segregation long after the U.S. had abolished it.

Time for you to crawl back into your hole.

Yes, I understand the way you think. Hmm, so if I rape someone it's ok because others have done so before me, right?

America was giving weapons to Croats during the war in Croatia.

Hmmm, as far as I remember from the histry class, Americans had wars with Indians until 19th century (or 18th), no matter, the matter is that your statement is not TRUE because legitimite US Army fought against Indians who are Native Americans.

And to answer one of the previous polls, America was discovered by Europeans in 1492. After that discovery Europeans stated to inhabit America, and they were the one who created The USA. Or am I wrong???

Unfortunately I won't be going to Greece. Anyway I hope you'll have great time there, from what I have heard Greece is beautiful country, and if I might reccommend, you should visit Italy if possible. People there are the best people in the world; so friendly and hospitable. You can literally apporach anyone in the street (even girls he he) and start talking.

They are great.

I am also man by the way.

"I am back."

You weren't missed.

"Your remarks look like they come from someone, well, not very well informed."

I'm at least as well informed as you. Probably more so.

"You speak of ethnic clansing in Kosovo and Croatia, hmmm; have you heard about Oluja action taken by Croats and supported by America in which 250 000 Serbs had to escape to Serbia?"

Supported how? Militarily? If not, then it's just your internal problem.

"Or what about native americans? who almost destroyed their whole civilization and put them into preservations?"

You mean "reservations." That's OK, I can make allowances for your English, it's certainly better than my Serbian! Let's see, who did this? The Spanish, Portuguese, French, and English, among others. And this was before the U.S. was even a country.

" or what about black people? which country had segregation laws?"

South Africa and pre-Zimbabwe Rhodesia, among others. They seem to have been forgiven by the international community for having done so, even though they practiced segregation long after the U.S. had abolished it.

Time for you to crawl back into your hole.


Okay. Mildly off topic, but relevant all the same. I alluded to this earlier. Verbal assaults, while on occasion comedically inspired and brilliant, accomplish nothing. Let's suppose, for a moment, that he genuinely knows something we don't. How will he tell us from his hole?
I don't agree with him; that much is clear, but how will I understand his position and, subsequently, either become more enlightened or correct him if he doesn't assert it?

::sigh:: Seems that this will now degrade into insults and ideology flung back and forth between Hoos and Serbian.

Once more: BETTER BY COMPARISON DOESN'T MEAN GOOD!

My point precisely.
By the way, Criti was kind of dirty last time I was there. Rhodos; however was rather nice. All in all, Greece was okay when I went.

Unfortunately I won't be going to Greece. Anyway I hope you'll have great time there, from what I have heard Greece is beautiful country, and if I might reccommend, you should visit Italy if possible. People there are the best people in the world; so friendly and hospitable. You can literally apporach anyone in the street (even girls he he) and start talking.

They are great.

I am also man by the way.

I am going through Italy. I'm flying into London, going North to Manchester, then going into the Netherlands, starting with Amsterdam, into Germany, stay at Berlin a few nights, then South through Germany and Austria, into Italy, then into Greece, all the way to Constantinople, then back through Greece into Italy, into Southern France, along the Coast, along the West Coast, up to Paris, Northern France, across to Irelane, and flying home back to DC out of Dublin

My point precisely.
By the way, Criti was kind of dirty last time I was there. Rhodos; however was rather nice. All in all, Greece was okay when I went.

Yea, Athens is a kinda dirty city. Also, Greeks are terrible drivers, so you gatta watch yourself when walking down the sidewalk. The coutryside is amazing, though. My grandmother was born in a cave in a small village in north-eastern Greece, and I plan to go back to the village my grandparents come from.

TO KATZISTANZA: I wish you all the best in your life, and on your voyage through Europe; I haven't been to all of those countries but I'm sure you'll have great time. You certainly are a man worth of respect.

TO HOOS BANDOLAND: I won't reply to your insults anymore, all you are saying is just pile of nothing, if you can't make a real argument read all of those posts that were not written by you, maybe you'll get the idea.

To everyone else: have a good day/night. I'll check this thread tomorrow to see if someone has written something worth of replying.

Bye bye

"Yes, I understand the way you think. Hmm, so if I rape someone it's ok because others have done so before me, right?"

No, but neither is it right for you to criticize or single out one country for committing "atrocities" when other countries, your own included, have done the same. Either condemn all or none.

"America was giving weapons to Croats during the war in Croatia."

And who started that war, anyway? Was it America? I think not. And did or did not Serbia practice ethnic cleansing?

"Hmmm, as far as I remember from the histry class, Americans had wars with Indians until 19th century (or 18th), no matter, the matter is that your statement is not TRUE because legitimite US Army fought against Indians who are Native Americans."

First of all, I'm a Native American. I was BORN here, and that makes me one. Yes, the U.S. fought the Indians. So did the Canadians, but they don't seem to get blamed for it. Expansionism at the expense of others was considered legitimate foreign policy in the 19th Century, but, hey, what about the 20th Century? Didn't Serbia absorb Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia after World War I, much against the wishes of their peoples? Again, it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

"And to answer one of the previous polls, America was discovered by Europeans in 1492. After that discovery Europeans stated to inhabit America, and they were the one who created The USA. Or am I wrong???"

Well, on this point you're right, although I fail to see how this justifies anything else you've said.

Have a nice day, but the next time you post on these forums, check your America-bashing at the door, OK?

Yeah the usa GOVERMENT has made mistakes not us, the public, sure we can vote for a beter person in a election but if all the people in the election are bad then what can you do. America is so much more than politics, were not into all of that crap, unlike so many other countries. We are a people just trying to live life the way we see it and we the way we want it to be and ,we like the idea of sharing that idea, and thats whats the goverment for. Mabye the goverment sucks but not the people. we just want to have a nice happy life for us and everyone else, just with a passion, but were normal human beings. plus its not like any type of media likes the goverment, and the media is the public right¿

Once more: BETTER BY COMPARISON DOESN'T MEAN GOOD!

I agree with you wholeheartly. My objection is to the focusing on one country's sins to the exclusion of any others'. It's like Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, "Let ye who is sinless among you cast the first stone." Besides, most of his allegations against the U.S. are for things done in the past, and much as we may bemoan them, we can't change them. Time to get into the now.

I'll check this thread tomorrow to see if someone has written something worth of replying.

Bye bye

Gee, I hope I am worthy of your reply. :rolleyes:

Okay. Mildly off topic, but relevant all the same. I alluded to this earlier. Verbal assaults, while on occasion comedically inspired and brilliant, accomplish nothing. Let's suppose, for a moment, that he genuinely knows something we don't. How will he tell us from his hole?
I don't agree with him; that much is clear, but how will I understand his position and, subsequently, either become more enlightened or correct him if he doesn't assert it?

I'll admit I got a little carried away. Blame it on my [insert dispised minority here] blood. :p

Either condemn all or none.

I fully agree. Personally, I condem all, but that's a matter of personal opinion.


I'll admit I got a little carried away. Blame it on my [insert dispised minority here] blood. :p

Haha! You get props for that one :)

Oh my, yet another hackjob by a whackjob.

Sure, no nation is perfect. I'm from New Zealand and while I think we have a good record we still have our share of things not to be proud of.

The problem is that there's a strong perception that most American's don't acknowledge anything but the good side. There are heaps of positive things about the US but it's dangerous to overlook the actions from the list above. The usual American response to criticism seems to be either jealousy or even more bizarrely, that people who don't like the US "hate freedom".

I'm responding to you because you seem to be the most cool-headed. Why we tend to only acknowledge the brighter side of things is because the U.S. is an optimistic country by nature. It is we who believe that if you work hard you can make a good life for yourself. We tend to believe that everything will be all right. This optimism gives the U.S. confidence, which can be very annoying to other countries because it can come off as conceit. And maybe there is a little bit of that too. :) It is dangerous not learn from the lessons taught by our mistakes, but it is also dangerous to dwell upon them and bemoan making them. That accomplishes nothing. It may well be that we are glossing over our mistakes, but I think that is our problem. If it really is a problem then it will bite us in the butt, and it will be our own fault.
P.S. Americans value independence--especially in terms of our personal thoughts--so it is very annoying to be told by some of the people on this thread (including the guy who started it) that we should not like our nation any more. That is one thing that you are sure to get Americans riled up about; it is taken very personally.

o my, you're so cleaver, you can ryme! You don't even need logic or reasons! I'm astonished.

Most large nations of the world have a worse track record than the USA. Granted, America has had less time to commit unspeakable atrocities, but to be honest in the tme that they have been around, they haven't done anything even mildly appauling. Most of their military and international actions (Joining WWII, Competing against the USSR, thwapping Saddam etc) have been roughly geared towards defending liberty and democracy, a couple of the noble principles on which the nation was founded.

America has also been the birthplace of many great people and things. Fast food, for example. Rock 'n' Roll. And Elijah Craig, the inventor of Bourbon.

That's bullshit. Alot of what the US does is geared towards it's own self intrest. Millions of innocent people have been killed in South America for the profit of US corperations. Don't give me that shit about the US not doing anything apaling, Mai Lay was pretty appaling, causeing mass starvation in Veit Nam and North Korea were appaling, cutting off the supply of TB vacine to Nicaragua in the middle of an epidemic was appalling, funding the Contra terrorists and drug lords was appaling, Iraq is appaling. I'm appalled, at least. And don't you say it's to further freedom. If that were true, we'd invade Kuwait, Chile, Saudi Arabia and dozens of other dictorships around the world much more burtal then Saddam. But we don't, because those are dictators that we put into power, and they play nicely with US corperations, or let us use their country for military bases, like Uzbeckistan.

"I spent thirty-three years and four months in active service in the country's most agile military force, the Marines. I served in all ranks from second lieutenant to major general. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

"I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all members of the military profession I never had an original thought until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

"Thus I helped make Mexico, and especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. "I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenue in. I helped in the raping of half-a-dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers and Co. in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

"During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. I was rewarded with honors, medals, and promotion. Looking back on it, I feel that I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate a racket in three city districts. The Marines operated on three continents."
—Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler (former Commandant, U.S. Marine Corps)

That's bullshit. Alot of what the US does is geared towards it's own self intrest. Millions of innocent people have been killed in South America for the profit of US corperations. Don't give me that shit about the US not doing anything apaling, Mai Lay was pretty appaling, causeing mass starvation in Veit Nam and North Korea were appaling, cutting off the supply of TB vacine to Nicaragua in the middle of an epidemic was appalling, funding the Contra terrorists and drug lords was appaling, Iraq is appaling. I'm appalled, at least. And don't you say it's to further freedom. If that were true, we'd invade Kuwait, Chile, Saudi Arabia and dozens of other dictorships around the world much more burtal then Saddam. But we don't, because those are dictators that we put into power, and they play nicely with US corperations, or let us use their country for military bases, like Uzbeckistan.

Please tell me why you think the US caused mass starvation in North Korea or Viet Nam?
RE: Nicaragua: Do you try to cure your enemies?

NB: Kuwait is not a dictatorship, and Saudi, while corrupt as all get out, is not as brutal as Saddam. I can't speak for Chile, as I don't know much about it.

Right. And the US also was right in the thick of it, helping the Tsunami vicitims, while the entire Chinese fleet stayed in dock.

That's bullshit. Alot of what the US does is geared towards it's own self intrest. Millions of innocent people have been killed in South America for the profit of US corperations. Don't give me that shit about the US not doing anything apaling, Mai Lay was pretty appaling, causeing mass starvation in Veit Nam and North Korea were appaling, cutting off the supply of TB vaciablahbl...

You can't deny that bourbon was a good invention.

causeing mass starvation in Veit Nam and North Korea were appaling

Both countries brought poverty and starvation on themselves by embracing communism.

As for Chile, Saudi Arabia and all those other corrupt dictatorships, don't worry, I'm sure their respective invasions are on the way.

Please tell me why you think the US caused mass starvation in North Korea or Viet Nam?
RE: Nicaragua: Do you try to cure your enemies?

In Viet Nam, we intentionally bombed damns to cause flooding to cause starvation to weaken the Viet Kongs base of recruitent, the peasentry. Also, Agent Orange and Napalm destroyed vast areas of feild and forest. Napalm was used the same way in North Korea. Indescriminant bombing in both instances also crippled the food production and genereal inferstructure and funcionality of those nations.

In regards to Nic, we were not at war with them. There was a popular rebellion, and the old dictatorship that played nice with US busniness was kicked out and replaces by a slightly less brutal one that did not. Honestly, the average peasent villager who was dieing from TB didn't know or care who was running the country. The peasentry were not our enemies.

Also, we find an even more brutal terrorist group of drug lords, and decide to fund them, because they will play nice with US intrests, and we fund them and their massacures by selling weapons to the Iranians, who had just taken hostages and kept them for years.

NB: Kuwait is not a dictatorship, and Saudi, while corrupt as all get out, is not as brutal as Saddam. I can't speak for Chile, as I don't know much about it.

Saudi Arabia is a religiously oppressive state who has public executions by beheading with a sword. They execute political prisioners. Kuwait a few years back ethnically cleansed about 250,000 Palestinian refugees. Uzbeckistan regularly opens fire on peaceful assemblies. Indonisia executes political prisioners, and women have no rights. It is legal to rape a a woman, they basicly do not exist, they are property of their husbands. The Indonisian government got money from the US to crush the women's rebellion under the guise of fighting terrorism. Tens of thousands have been killed by Chile's regime, who the US helped install through violent rebellion.

Right. And the US also was right in the thick of it, helping the Tsunami vicitims, while the entire Chinese fleet stayed in dock.

This is true, and it is true that American does alot of good in the world and has, as Twiget has pointed out, capacity for greatness, I'm just saying that you can't pretent the other side of it doesn't exist. You need the full picture.

You can't deny that bourbon was a good invention.

Very true, good sir. Tuche' :)

Both countries brought poverty and starvation on themselves by embracing communism.

See above, in regards to Agent Orange, intentional flooding of feilds, and napalm.

As for Chile, Saudi Arabia and all those other corrupt dictatorships, don't worry, I'm sure their respective invasions are on the way.

No, we have good business relationships with them. Many we put into power violently. (Ex: Chile)

Also, I'd like to, at this time, apologize for being a bit of a dick earlyer in the page. I stand by what I said, but I could have phrased it a but nicer, with less profanity and sarcasm.

meh, not specifically on topic, more just a statement on america's stunning lack of education as pertains to their own history...

bush bitched about germany and japan not joining up with the "willing" to get into iraq. now, i'm not saying that military action was necessarily bad, but, after the allies trashed the axis during WWII, germany and japan had their constitutions drafted up by the allies, of which the states was quite a large part, and in those constitutions it states that the nations cannot use their armies for anything other than defence. that's right, they cannot send soldiers to iraq even if they wanted to.

bush, learn your history before opening your mouth.

no it doesn't rock

it sucks arse so bad that it doesn't have to digest any of its own food as its all being recycled

but I like americans its the government I hate (like most countrys)

In Viet Nam, we intentionally bombed damns to cause flooding to cause starvation to weaken the Viet Kongs base of recruitent, the peasentry. Also, Agent Orange and Napalm destroyed vast areas of feild and forest. Napalm was used the same way in North Korea. Indescriminant bombing in both instances also crippled the food production and genereal inferstructure and funcionality of those nations.

Yep. Abolutely true regarding the dams. Dams are a valid military target... However, this as a strategy was only somewhat effective. Rice and other foodstuffs came down from China and in from Laos as well.

Ah, the old Noam Chomsky argument. The use of agent orange was to clear vegitation, not destroy crops.
Yes, I'm sure some were destroyed, but then, the NVA kept sniping from the tall trees and making those punji stick traps on the forest floor.

Napalm is most certainly NOT used to destoy crops . All it is basically is a mix of gasoline and petroleum jelly. Yes, it causes things to catch on fire, but it is very ineffective against rice patties, them being mostly water. It does work very well on people and wooden structures (especially in cities), however.

Agent Orange was not available to be used in Korea (as you state), and napalm can't really be used in such a way so... ???

In regards to Nic, we were not at war with them. There was a popular rebellion, and the old dictatorship that played nice with US busniness was kicked out and replaces by a slightly less brutal one that did not. Honestly, the average peasent villager who was dieing from TB didn't know or care who was running the country. The peasentry were not our enemies.

The US's stated policy was that it was at war will Communism. Reagan said this. Who was in power at the time? Hmm...

Also, we find an even more brutal terrorist group of drug lords, and decide to fund them, because they will play nice with US intrests, and we fund them and their massacures by selling weapons to the Iranians, who had just taken hostages and kept them for years.

The Contras are a whole other debate... (Yes, I'm pissed about the selling of weapons to Iran to fund them.)

Saudi Arabia is a religiously oppressive state who has public executions by beheading with a sword. They execute political prisioners.

But it's very, very orderly. :)
I fail to see how any of that is worse than what Saddam's sons used to do, or indeed what Iraq did to Kurds or it's own dissenters.

Kuwait a few years back ethnically cleansed about 250,000 Palestinian refugees. Uzbeckistan regularly opens fire on peaceful assemblies. Indonisia executes political prisioners, and women have no rights.

...and neither did Kurds or just about any non-Baathists in Iraq. How about the draining of the marshlands that almost destroyed an entire people and their culture?

It is legal to rape a a woman, they basicly do not exist, they are property of their husbands. The Indonisian government got money from the US to crush the women's rebellion under the guise of fighting terrorism. Tens of thousands have been killed by Chile's regime, who the US helped install through violent rebellion.

Can you cite some sorces about Indonesia?
Like I said, I can't debate Chile.

This is true, and it is true that American does alot of good in the world and has, as Twiget has pointed out, capacity for greatness, I'm just saying that you can't pretent the other side of it doesn't exist. You need the full picture.


True. I'm just against the picture having the contrast turned up so high that it's distored.

::sigh::

<yawn>

<yawn>

The ::sigh:: was not in responce to you, it was in responce to the post above yours. That's why I deleted it, it looked like it was in responce to yours.

Yep. Abolutely true regarding the dams. Dams are a valid military target... However, this as a strategy was only somewhat effective. Rice and other foodstuffs came down from China and in from Laos as well.

many people still died of starvation. I do not concider this valid military tactics. Also, we had no right to be there in the first place, it's not like we did this in defence pf our homeland or something.

Ah, the old Noam Chomsky argument. The use of agent orange was to clear vegitation, not destroy crops.
Yes, I'm sure some were destroyed, but then, the NVA kept sniping from the tall trees and making those punji stick traps on the forest floor.

It was used for that, but it had further reaching effects then we thought. The land had been poisioned for years, it is still causing birth defects today, and it did, indeed, destroy much ariable land.

Napalm is most certainly NOT used to destoy crops . All it is basically is a mix of gasoline and petroleum. Yes, it causes things to catch on fire, but it is very ineffective against rice patties, them being mostly water. It does work very well on people and wooden structures (especially in cities), however.

Agent Orange was not available to be used in Korea (as you state), and napalm can't really be used in such a way so... ???

I don't really have the evedince to fight you on this one, but I do remember reading somewhere that it was used to that effect. If I can find the source, I'll post it here.

The US's stated policy was that it was at war will Communism. Reagan said this. Who was in power at the time? Hmm...

That is no excuse. You go to war if you are directly threatened or attacked, not because of what a group choses to call it's self. If I recall, the Nicuaguan "communists" had no ties to the Soviet Union.

And like I said, the peasents dieing of the desiese every day, and being slaughtered by the Contra death squads, proabably didn't know or care what the people in power called them selves. The point was, international health organizations were trying to help these people, they pleaded with Reagan to give them the needed medicine, but the asshole would not. That is just bullshit, it's murder, and nothing you can say to me will make me think otherwise. Thousands of preventable deaths, because of the label given to the people in power. It's bullshit.


The Contras are a whole other debate... (Yes, I'm pissed about the selling of weapons to Iran to fund them.)

Good, then we are in agreement here :)


But it's very, very orderly. :)
I fail to see how any of that is worse than what Saddam's sons used to do, or indeed what Iraq did to Kurds or it's own dissenters.

Iraq tortured and killed political dissenters, Saudi Arabia, Uzbeckistan, Inonisian, and Chile, just to name a few, all do the same.

...and neither did Kurds or just about any non-Baathists in Iraq. How about the draining of the marshlands that almost destroyed an entire people and their culture?

How about the Turks attacking Kurd villages with helecopters and missle? No US outcry or objection when that happened.


True. I'm just against the picture having the contrast turned up so high that it's distored.

As am I. I think the only place we differ is what the accual picture looks like. I think yours is distorted and mine is more complete, you think mine is distorted and yours is more complete. There's not much either of us can do abou that.

I’d like everyone here to read this, just to get the full picture of the USA (a country which, according to some of you, rocks)

I’ll try to be brief. After the WW II, America is the country that has committed the greatest number of crimes against mankind. Here is the list of all countries that have been attacked by America:

China 1945-46.
Korea 1950-53..........*snip*

Now do you still think that America rocks?

Um....your a idiot. :)

And to answer your original question:



Peace out.

This is true, and it is true that American does alot of good in the world and has, as Twiget has pointed out, capacity for greatness, I'm just saying that you can't pretent the other side of it doesn't exist. You need the full picture.


And this is what I've said all along. The notion that only one side is the case is, as you so appropriately might have said, a real asshat line of logic.
Thanks for the hat-tip.

Isn't it great when 2 people in a debate can agree to disagree, and still find common ground?

And I like the way this asshat thing is spreading :)

Yeah, it's a strange concept. Two people can debate, get into in-depth discussion on their viewpoints, differentiate between known fact and personal opinion, and compare and contrast the fundamentals of their indiviual perspectives, and thereby evolve as human beings. It's crazy.

"Yes, I understand the way you think. Hmm, so if I rape someone it's ok because others have done so before me, right?"

No, but neither is it right for you to criticize or single out one country for committing "atrocities" when other countries, your own included, have done the same. Either condemn all or none.

"America was giving weapons to Croats during the war in Croatia."

And who started that war, anyway? Was it America? I think not. And did or did not Serbia practice ethnic cleansing?

"Hmmm, as far as I remember from the histry class, Americans had wars with Indians until 19th century (or 18th), no matter, the matter is that your statement is not TRUE because legitimite US Army fought against Indians who are Native Americans."

First of all, I'm a Native American. I was BORN here, and that makes me one. Yes, the U.S. fought the Indians. So did the Canadians, but they don't seem to get blamed for it. Expansionism at the expense of others was considered legitimate foreign policy in the 19th Century, but, hey, what about the 20th Century? Didn't Serbia absorb Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia after World War I, much against the wishes of their peoples? Again, it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

"And to answer one of the previous polls, America was discovered by Europeans in 1492. After that discovery Europeans stated to inhabit America, and they were the one who created The USA. Or am I wrong???"

Well, on this point you're right, although I fail to see how this justifies anything else you've said.

Have a nice day, but the next time you post on these forums, check your America-bashing at the door, OK?


I have condemned all crime done by all nations. If you took effort to read my previous posts you would have seen that. My point here is only to show the complete image of America since lot of people (especially americans) think of it as the greatest country that has never done evil to anyone. Au contraire say I.

The war in Croatia was started by Croatia. When the JNA (Yugoslavian peoples' army) was retreating from Slovenia Croats attacked it and their bases in Croatia while official Croatian proapaganda was saying, including their leader F. Tudjman that they will kill or expel every serbian in Croatia. Of course that Serbs had to stand up for their defence; and those actions by Croats were widely supported by America and other western allies, weapons, money, training officers were given to Croatia, mostly from America.

The only native americans, anthropologically speaking, are American Indians. America was their land until Europeans took it away from them.

After the WW I Serbia DID NOT absorb those countries against their will; it was quite the opposite. First of all, Montenegro, they are brother nation to Serbs, there is almost no difference between them, and they fought side by side in WW I, they were willing to join Serbian kingdom. Second of all, Bosnia was always an unstable country first under Turks then under Austro -Hungarians, after the WW I ended they wanted serbian protection (not to mention that a big portion of its' citizens were Serbs). Croatia was also under Austro-Hungarian empire until the end of the WW I. The biggest portion of its' citizens and politicians wanted to join with Serbian kingdom for protection and to create a Slaven country free from foreign oppressors. Same goes with Slovenia. If you don't know, the country was named Kraljevina Srba, Hrvata i Slovenaca (which means the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians). No you might wonder why Montenegrians or Bosnians aren't mentioned there; I'll enlight you. Bosnia was a country inhabited by Serbs, Croats and Muslims, they never had their own nations and Montenegreans are, as I said before, just like Serbs, they have common history and relligion.

And last but not the least, I was NOT bashing America, as I have said many times before, america is a country with many good, tremendeous people and accomplishments, but it is also a country with a lot of BLOOD on its' hands; I've noticed that you and everyone else that was against me only debated about that list of nations. HOW COME THAT NEITHER ONE OF YOU DEBATED THE TEXT BELOW? IS IT BECAUSE THOSE ARE ROCK SOLID FACTS THAT YOU CANNOT ACCEPT/EXLAIN/UNDERSTAND or you don't believe in those?

Have a nice day you too.

Actually, I did argue facts. Sometimes, the nature of truth and fact is not entirely black and white. Bear in mind, that list of yours included our Civil War. We made it a point to exclude all other nations there. Your list included Events from both World Wars, both of which, we entered late. Yes, we did some horrible, viscious things in Vietnam. We did not; however, give toddlers grenades. As I see and understand things, their inhumanity lead us to brutality. Granted, as Katz pointed out, better by comparison is not neccessarily good; and the lesser of two evils is not innocent.
I make no pretenses about America. All I'm saying is that, out of respect for your readers whose minds you may change, don't assault America and call it the truth; give them (us) the whole truth and let everyone decide their opinions based on that.
It's true, some people do blindly view America as this perfect, utopian land; a cornucopia below our feet. They bother me more than those who wish to do us harm. At least our assailants are fairly upfront, albeit hidden at times. When a place is seen as perfect, the people no longer strive to improve it, so it falls to stagnation. All things in stagnation age, crumble, mildew and rot. Dropping bombs never fixed a problem without causing more. Here, it only accelerates them. How do you solve intellectual blindness?
Further, I will add that, when this became an afront to America, it became an assault on her patriots, myself included. If it were an attack on specifially the American government, I'd have agreed with you.

The ::sigh:: was not in responce to you, it was in responce to the post above yours. That's why I deleted it, it looked like it was in responce to yours.

Ah! Got it. Sorry about that. :)

many people still died of starvation. I do not concider this valid military tactics. Also, we had no right to be there in the first place, it's not like we did this in defence pf our homeland or something.

Yes. And some die on the streets of Los Angeles, Paris, London, Warsaw, or Moscow. My only point is that while it may have happened, it was NOT a specific mission, nor a war aim to starve them to death. Destroying the dams were also for the destruction of roads, water reservoirs, etc.
Mind you, the North Vietnamese were no more humanitarian, what with the Tet offensive or the various bombings in cities throughout the war.

You're right, we were in Viet Nam due to the promise that Kennedy made DeGaulle to keep France as a full member in NATO. Not only did DeGaulle screw the US over, but we got stuck holding up their ex-colony. :(

It was used for that, but it had further reaching effects then we thought. The land had been poisioned for years, it is still causing birth defects today, and it did, indeed, destroy much ariable land.

Yep. And that's bad. But that's akin to in the US, where in the 70s and 80s many river deltas were *SATURATED* with fertilizers, since what farmers used washed off into the water supply. It happened, but it wasn't intended.

I don't really have the evedince to fight you on this one, but I do remember reading somewhere that it was used to that effect. If I can find the source, I'll post it here.

Okay, but I think it's unlikely: a vaseline/gasoline combo is simply not effective to destroy crops: you'd have to go out with flamethrowers to really get it to work. It's not a powder/gas like Agent Orange, which spreads easily and is made to destroy vegetation.

That is no excuse. You go to war if you are directly threatened or attacked, not because of what a group choses to call it's self. If I recall, the Nicuaguan "communists" had no ties to the Soviet Union.

No, they had ties to the Cubans, by proxy to the Soviets.
That depends. Would you have been against an assassination of Hitler in 1937? I prefer the idea that one can fight small battles to avoid a future World War.

And like I said, the peasents dieing of the desiese every day, and being slaughtered by the Contra death squads, proabably didn't know or care what the people in power called them selves. The point was, international health organizations were trying to help these people, they pleaded with Reagan to give them the needed medicine, but the asshole would not. That is just bullshit, it's murder, and nothing you can say to me will make me think otherwise. Thousands of preventable deaths, because of the label given to the people in power. It's bullshit.

It's also politics. :(

Iraq tortured and killed political dissenters, Saudi Arabia, Uzbeckistan, Inonisian, and Chile, just to name a few, all do the same.

Good... so we agree. That there's a lot of regime change needed out there?
(Hopefully not all by armed intervention...)

How about the Turks attacking Kurd villages with helecopters and missle? No US outcry or objection when that happened.

True. By anybody. :(

As am I. I think the only place we differ is what the accual picture looks like. I think yours is distorted and mine is more complete, you think mine is distorted and yours is more complete. There's not much either of us can do abou that.

True. Or we could just change the channel and start picking on the French... :D

And some die on the streets of Los Angeles, Paris, London, Warsaw, or Moscow. My only point is that while it may have happened, it was NOT a specific mission, nor a war aim to starve them to death. Destroying the dams were also for the destruction of roads, water reservoirs, etc.

Accully, there was a memo from the CIA saying that we should bomb damns with the spacific porpose of causing flooding to starve the peasentry, because that's where the Viet Cong drew their recruits from, and the US lost to the Viet Cong, not the NVA. I can find the memo if you want. I should have it by tonight.


No, they had ties to the Cubans, by proxy to the Soviets.
That depends. Would you have been against an assassination of Hitler in 1937? I prefer the idea that one can fight small battles to avoid a future World War.

Hindsight is 20/20. Of course, knowing what we know now, assassinating Hitler would have been a great idea. But as far as I know, the Nic gov wasn't preaching conquest by fire, or the extermination of races. In my mind, ties by proxy are no excuse to let thousands die needlessly who were not even really involved. Like I said, it was the rual peasentry that suffered, mostly.


It's also politics. :(

And it sucks, and I'm against it, and I'm going to think less of and call out any nation who does it (nearly all of them, unfortuatly).


Good... so we agree. That there's a lot of regime change needed out there?
(Hopefully not all by armed intervention...)

Aye. To both parts.


True. By anybody. :(

'Tis a sad state of affairs the world is in some time. I just hope those with the power to do great good or great harm use it responcibly. But world governments don't really have good track record, as we've pointed out here.

:(

Actually, I did argue facts. Sometimes, the nature of truth and fact is not entirely black and white. Bear in mind, that list of yours included our Civil War. We made it a point to exclude all other nations there. Your list included Events from both World Wars, both of which, we entered late. Yes, we did some horrible, viscious things in Vietnam. We did not; however, give toddlers grenades. As I see and understand things, their inhumanity lead us to brutality. Granted, as Katz pointed out, better by comparison is not neccessarily good; and the lesser of two evils is not innocent.
I make no pretenses about America. All I'm saying is that, out of respect for your readers whose minds you may change, don't assault America and call it the truth; give them (us) the whole truth and let everyone decide their opinions based on that.
It's true, some people do blindly view America as this perfect, utopian land; a cornucopia below our feet. They bother me more than those who wish to do us harm. At least our assailants are fairly upfront, albeit hidden at times. When a place is seen as perfect, the people no longer strive to improve it, so it falls to stagnation. All things in stagnation age, crumble, mildew and rot. Dropping bombs never fixed a problem without causing more. Here, it only accelerates them. How do you solve intellectual blindness?
Further, I will add that, when this became an afront to America, it became an assault on her patriots, myself included. If it were an attack on specifially the American government, I'd have agreed with you.

I think you mistaken me for Emerigo (if I remember his name correctly). He posted that loooooong list with actions that date long before WW II. My list, on the first page and the other (full one) several pages later only covers the period after the WW II.

Yes, I did not mean to attack the whole american people (and I have said that many time in this thread) but let us don't forget that the very same american people elected all of the governments.

Someone mentioned here that my country has a history of killing their own leaders, well YES, at least my people rebelled against bad leaders (don't forget that it WAS NOT american aggression that overthrown Slobodan Milosevic but his own people in massive protests months later).

I don't expect you people to understand what is like when the biggest military power bombs you, but my people know, and trust me, it's not like in video games or movies; because in games you can always restart and in movies you can always rewind but in life, once dead you cannot restore that person's life.

Trust me, I had no intentions to insult you nor anyone else, all I wanted was to show what I have shown to others. That way, as you said yourself, people (at least those who are smart enough) will get a better image.

...

You're right, we were in Viet Nam due to the promise that Kennedy made DeGaulle to keep France as a full member in NATO. Not only did DeGaulle screw the US over, but we got stuck holding up their ex-colony. :(
...
What are you talking about? I've never heard about such agreement... was in concluded in 1961, when Kennedy was visiting Paris? Was it secret?

its about time someone put this up. Its a list of the worst atrocities since worldwar2. Note: Us didnt make the list! OMG, iunno i cant rember if it was serbian whatever or someother guy who siad we commited worst atrocities since ww2. Well i didnt notice Bosnian Serbs mad the list with that little thing they did wen they excuted say 200,000 muslims (note i no this didnt take place in your Serbia.) I dont feel like listing all serbian crimes but u no wat, stfu. We dont care your country is run by the mafia! we dont care you are hated by all of europe but russia! we dont care so stop buggin us.

heres the list:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide4.htm

One more thought for this thread...

All you idiots wandering on and posting something to the effect of a poorly-spelled, grammatically appalling "shut up" really need to take your own advice, illegible though it may be. All you're really doing is making yourselves look like idiots, and damaging the validity of any debate.

In plain terms, you're making everybody who likes America DESPITE the things we've done, look like asshats. (Yay for fun, accurate words.)

What are you talking about? I've never heard about such agreement... was in concluded in 1961, when Kennedy was visiting Paris? Was it secret?

Nope, it's not secret at all. I learned about it while persuing my Bachelor's of History. It's in many books. Personally, I'd suggest Barbara Tuchman's "The March of Folly". It's a good read, and a real page turner. (At least, the Viet Nam & American Revolution from the POV of the British were. I found the Trojan section a little dull.)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0345308239.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345308239/qid=1124053437/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6189401-5428816?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I think you mistaken me for Emerigo (if I remember his name correctly). He posted that loooooong list with actions that date long before WW II. My list, on the first page and the other (full one) several pages later only covers the period after the WW II.

Yes, I did not mean to attack the whole american people (and I have said that many time in this thread) but let us don't forget that the very same american people elected all of the governments.

Someone mentioned here that my country has a history of killing their own leaders, well YES, at least my people rebelled against bad leaders (don't forget that it WAS NOT american aggression that overthrown Slobodan Milosevic but his own people in massive protests months later).

I don't expect you people to understand what is like when the biggest military power bombs you, but my people know, and trust me, it's not like in video games or movies; because in games you can always restart and in movies you can always rewind but in life, once dead you cannot restore that person's life.

Trust me, I had no intentions to insult you nor anyone else, all I wanted was to show what I have shown to others. That way, as you said yourself, people (at least those who are smart enough) will get a better image.


Your list still only offers half-truths in many cases. For example, Mogadishu, Somalia. We were attacked during a humanitarian aide campaign. That was 1995, if memory serves me correctly. Kosovo was another. Not even every military action we've taken has been evil. Some have been self-serving, sure, but not all.
As a human being, you're entitled to your beliefs, including the notion that America is a blight on the world. However, we do deserve the whole truth when your point is argued. That's all I'm saying.

its about time someone put this up. Its a list of the worst atrocities since worldwar2. Note: Us didnt make the list! OMG, iunno i cant rember if it was serbian whatever or someother guy who siad we commited worst atrocities since ww2. Well i didnt notice Bosnian Serbs mad the list with that little thing they did wen they excuted say 200,000 muslims (note i no this didnt take place in your Serbia.) I dont feel like listing all serbian crimes but u no wat, stfu. We dont care your country is run by the mafia! we dont care you are hated by all of europe but russia! we dont care so stop buggin us.

heres the list:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide4.htm

That's just their list, their opinion. Personally, I would have put Viet Nam, Nicuragua, El Salvidor, and others on. Also, how many of those listed did the US have a hand in? More then you might think, I'd be willing to bet.

I'm not saying the US is the worst by a long shot, but if you think we haven't committed atrocities, then you have your head so far up your ass that I can't even bitch slap you properly.

Also, when you resort to racial and national attacks, you make yourself out to look like an ignorant American redneck, and you damage the reputation of all Americans. Think before you open your mouth.

One more thought for this thread...

All you idiots wandering on and posting something to the effect of a poorly-spelled, grammatically appalling "shut up" really need to take your own advice, illegible though it may be. All you're really doing is making yourselves look like idiots, and damaging the validity of any debate.

In plain terms, you're making everybody who likes America DESPITE the things we've done, look like asshats. (Yay for fun, accurate words.)

Couldn't have said it any better my self.

its about time someone put this up. Its a list of the worst atrocities since worldwar2. Note: Us didnt make the list! OMG, iunno i cant rember if it was serbian whatever or someother guy who siad we commited worst atrocities since ww2. Well i didnt notice Bosnian Serbs mad the list with that little thing they did wen they excuted say 200,000 muslims (note i no this didnt take place in your Serbia.) I dont feel like listing all serbian crimes but u no wat, stfu. We dont care your country is run by the mafia! we dont care you are hated by all of europe but russia! we dont care so stop buggin us.

heres the list:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide4.htm

First of all, the number of 200 000 is greatly exxagarated. I am not very well informed on the exact number, but as I have SAID many times before (gee, sometimes I wonder why I even reply to such posts) YES, Serbs have done crimes towards other people, and I am ashamed of that. But let me tell you something else, now that you mentioned muslims in Bosnia. I doubt that you have ever heard of a "bosnian barbecue"; let me enlight you. It is process when muslims would take a Serb, cut off all of his extremes (legs, arms and head) cut open his belly, putt all of those inside, sew it, and than barbecue it all. You have forgotten to mention Srebrenica, where bosnian serbs kiled around 6 000 civilians, yes that atrocity; but you have also failed to mention that prior to that terrible crime muslims slaughtered around 2 500 serbian civilians in nearby villages. Yes, crime makes crime.

You do know that if the US had not intervened in many of those countries first listed, that millions of Civillians would have been killed anyway?

I do agree that the US is often far too trigger happy to topple regimes. Look at IRan in 1953.

You do know that if the US had not intervened in many of those countries first listed, that millions of Civillians would have been killed anyway?

I do agree that the US is often far too trigger happy to topple regimes. Look at IRan in 1953.

Yes, this way America took the privilege.

You do know that if the US had not intervened in many of those countries first listed, that millions of Civillians would have been killed anyway?

Prove it. And specify which instances you mean. And don't bother with stuff like Bosnia, Somolia, no one here is debating that.

I won't allow blanket statements with no basis in fact. If you have such facts, please bring them to my attention, for I would not wish to go around ignorant of the truth.

I find it really difficult to look at your list and say that everything on the list was a wrong action for the use of American military power since WWII. While the results were not always pretty, the intentions for good results were always there. It was often the nature of the enemy that made the results messier than they should have been.

The lesson to be learned from the list, is that American power is not omnipotent, but rather is often tempered by unexpected events or enemy power. In the use of force in the smaller examples, Grenada, for example, where the US military was nearly omnipotent, the results were actually pretty good.

[QUOTE=Craigerock] ...the intentions for good results were always there... QUOTE]

Road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And another thing, good intentions for whome?

I don't believe they were done with good intentions. They were done with the intentions of furthering US economic, military, and political power.

Grenada, for example, where the US military was nearly omnipotent, the results were actually pretty good.
I think you're confusing 'omnipotent' for 'omnipresent'. Omnipresence is a fitting word, as Grenada is in fact so small that it's hard to imagine US troops actually losing sight of each other while there.

Grenada was hardly a mahor victory - it amounted to the US refusing to allow the democratically-elected Socialist government of the day the right to outsource construction of a civilian airport runway to Cuban engineers.

Oooooh, way to save the world, Ronnie Raygun. One piece of Commie-built asphalt at a time. I'm so impressed, I've left a depression in the pavement.

[QUOTE=Craigerock] ...the intentions for good results were always there... QUOTE]

Road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And another thing, good intentions for whome?

Nice cliche' -- doesn't mean much though.

Good intentions, you know the standard US government line, "For American Interests", admittedly they could be business interests, they could be interests in lots of things that the US government has "interests" in.

You want to know something really scary? There are times when even the US government can not decide exactly "what American interest" has priority. Take for example, that the interests of the US State Dept. don't always coincide with the Department of Defense, or the National Security Advisor, etc. These competing interests often creating conflicting requirements during an invasion and occupation of an enemy country, which can often confuse and confound the locals who easily get disillusioned.

The best American military operations have always been the short and sweet kind that don't require a follow-on presence. The longer ones get drawn out by conflicting "interests" and priorities and confound the many.

Hitler was a vegitarian animal lover and Nobel Peace PRize recipient who brought Germany out of an economic depression and built it into a world power. I could probably (If I were a titanic grudge-holder with a lot of free time) build a huge list of good things old Adolf did. This does not make him a good person. A long list of bad things America has done (compiled by a titanic grudge-holder with too much free time) does not make the US a bad place either. Besides America does Rock hell we INVENTED rock!

(In regards to the Granada thing)

And, once again, murdered a bunch of people when it was none of our business

(In regards to the Granada thing)

And, once again, murdered a bunch of people when it was none of our business

In regards to Grenada, On October 13, 1983, the Grenadian Army, controlled by former Deputy Prime Minister Bernard Coard, seized power in a bloody coup. The severity of the violence, coupled with Coard's hard-line Marxism, caused deep concern among neighboring Caribbean nations, as well as in Washington, D.C. Also, the presence of nearly 1,000 American medical students in Grenada caused added concern.

The American intervention was required to protect American students from the overflowing violence and breakdown of law and order on the island.

2. Making of the Trnopolje ‘concentration camp’ and those who were shamelessly fooled.

In his essay ‘The Picture that Fooled the World’ (1998) Thomas Deichman describes the ‘concentration camp’ hoax in detail. The now famous picture came from a video shot by Penny Marshall of ITN of a refugee camp in Trnopolje on August 5th, 1992. In fact, Deichmann has looked at the rest of the footage Marshall and her team shot that contained the picture. What was used in the Marshell report — and what wasn’t — is revealing. What wasn’t in the report was the openness of the camp, the holes in the fences that Marshell and her crew went through and that the refugees were free to leave anytime they wanted (Dechmann, 1998).

What became the picture that Mike Jeremy of ITN pegged ‘one of the key images of the war in the former Yugoslavia,’ (qtd. in Deichmann, p. 170) was, in fact, presented as to the Western world as something it was not, a concentration camp. The focus was on Fikret Alic, who’s protruding rib cage behind a fence conjured up images of Nazi death camps. This ‘death camp’ was a crude, sick lie and Fikret Alic, who survived the war, was disturbed about the use of his image.

Through the use of camera angles, editing and the focus on one rather emaciated fellow, the images of a ‘concentration camp’ were constructed for Western, anti-Serb propaganda consumption, especially to the delight of the Ruder Finn PR firm (Deichmann 1998, Flounders 1998).

....

‘At the beginning of July 1992, New York Newsday came out with the article on Serb camps. We jumped at the opportunity immediately. We outwitted three big Jewish organizations — the B'nai B'rith Anti-Defamation League, The American Jewish Committee and the American Jewish Congress. In August, we suggested that they publish an advertisement in the New York Times and organize demonstrations outside the United Nations.
That was a tremendous coup. When the Jewish organizations entered the game on the side of the [Muslim] Bosnians, we could promptly equate the Serbs with the Nazis in the public mind. Nobody understood what was happening in Yugoslavia. The great majority of Americans were probably asking themselves in which African country Bosnia was situated’ (qtd. in Flounders 1998, p.55).

Source:http://www.agitprop.org.au/stopnato/20000105crimlapo.htm#cleansing

In regards to Grenada, On October 13, 1983, the Grenadian Army, controlled by former Deputy Prime Minister Bernard Coard, seized power in a bloody coup. The severity of the violence, coupled with Coard's hard-line Marxism, caused deep concern among neighboring Caribbean nations, as well as in Washington, D.C. Also, the presence of nearly 1,000 American medical students in Grenada caused added concern.

The American intervention was required to protect American students from the overflowing violence and breakdown of law and order on the island.

Evacuating med students is one thing. Killing unarmed Cuban construction workers building an airport is quite another.

The American intervention was required to protect American students from the overflowing violence and breakdown of law and order on the island.
I watched the live coverage. On American and non-American televised news. There was no breakdown of law and order. There was no 'overflowing violence'. There was a single crew of Cuban engineers building a civilian runway.

I watched the live coverage. On American and non-American televised news. There was no breakdown of law and order. There was no 'overflowing violence'. There was a single crew of Cuban engineers building a civilian runway.

I am sorry to say it looks like you are re-writing history. There were Cuban soldiers on the Island that the US Marines had to fight because they were there to protect Mr. Coard. The US students were very grateful for the American Intervention and the restoration of law and order which DID break down.

Sounds like you're the one re-writing. Dobbs saw it live on multiple TV news stations. Where do you get your info? Your post reads like a governemt press release

Try these excerpts from Reagan's own speech:

Last weekend, I was awakened in the early morning hours and told that six members of the Organization of Eastern Caribbean States, joined by Jamaica and Barbados, had sent an urgent request that we join them in a military operation to restore order and democracy to Grenada. They were proposing this action under the terms of a treaty, a mutual assistance pact that existed among them.

These small, peaceful nations needed our help. Three of them don't have armies at all, and the others have very limited forces. The legitimacy of their request, plus my own concern for our citizens, dictated my decision. I believe our government has a responsibility to go to the aid of its citizens, if their right to life and liberty is threatened. The nightmare of our hostages in Iran must never be repeated.

We knew we had little time and that complete secrecy was vital to ensure both the safety of the young men who would undertake this mission and the Americans they were about to rescue. The Joint Chiefs worked around the clock to come up with a plan. They had little intelligence information about conditions on the island.

We had to assume that several hundred Cubans working on the airport could be military reserves. Well, as it turned out, the number was much larger, and they were a military force. Six hundred of them have been taken prisoner, and we have discovered a complete base with weapons and communications equipment, which makes it clear a Cuban occupation of the island had been planned.

Two hours ago we released the first photos from Grenada. They included pictures of a warehouse of military equipment—one of three we've uncovered so far. This warehouse contained weapons and ammunition stacked almost to the ceiling, enough to supply thousands of terrorists. Grenada, we were told, was a friendly island paradise for tourism. Well, it wasn't. It was a Soviet-Cuban colony, being readied as a major military bastion to export terror and undermine democracy. We got there just in time.

My note: I agree, we got there just in time. It was the right decision then, and I still believe it was justified. Just don't lump all US operations together as "unjust". Don't paint with such a broad brush.

Two hours ago we released the first photos from Grenada. They included pictures of a warehouse of military equipment—one of three we've uncovered so far. This warehouse contained weapons and ammunition stacked almost to the ceiling, enough to supply thousands of terrorists. Grenada, we were told, was a friendly island paradise for tourism. Well, it wasn't. It was a Soviet-Cuban colony, being readied as a major military bastion to export terror and undermine democracy. We got there just in time.

Those stapleguns are a bitch.

http://www.presidentreagan.info/speeches/lebanon_and_grenada.cfm

Source of my last post .. I lost track of the first one ... I googled it.

Those stapleguns are a bitch.

I won one for the gipper!

You have a sourse that's not Reagen's mouth? Sorry, but he doesn't have much credibility with me, and your version goes against what I've heard from veryous sources (including respected history texts).

If, indeed, there was a military garrison, that is a different matter, but still not entirly justified, in my opinion.

I'm not saying that all US military actions are for selfish or evil reasons (Somolia, WWII et cetera), but I believe that many are, especially in that part of the world. The US doesn't have a very good human rights track record when it comes to South America. No one does, but that's no excuse.

As a Communist you should have a lot of respect for Reagan, Gorbachev did.

I, sir, am no Communist. And thems fighting words

It was indeed fortuate that Gorbichav and Reagen had enough sence work towards peace. Although in my opinion, that was mostly Gorbie.

I, sir, am no Communist. And thems fighting words

It was indeed fortuate that Gorbichav and Reagen had enough sence work towards peace. Although in my opinion, that was mostly Gorbie.

My humble pie apologizes. Usually anti-Grenada interventionists are communists and really hate any move America makes against Cuba or Cuban puppets.

http://www.presidentreagan.info/images/reagan_smile.jpg

The biggest reason why America rocks!

trust me, I am no Castro supporter