NationStates Jolt Archive

Stones Jab at 'Hypocrite' Patriots in New Song (http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/music/article.adp?id=20050810072209990023&ncid=NWS00010000000001)

How bad do you have to be to get the Rolling Stones to write an angry song about you?

Good. They still suck, though.

Way to go Rolling Stones! :)

They are entitled to their opinion. Besides they are holdovers from the 60's what do you expect.

Besides they are holdovers from the 60's what do you expect.

Did you read the bottom of the article that names about 10 other bands that have lyrics that are anti-right wing that are NOT hold overs from the 60's? ;)

Did you read the bottom of the article that names about 10 other bands that have lyrics that are anti-right wing that are NOT hold overs from the 60's? ;)
I can think of at least three off the top of my head -- Green Day and Incubus. And Radiohead.

How bad do you have to be to get the Rolling Stones to write an angry song about you?
Oh, at around the point that there might be a bit more publicity and another 200 grand in it. I don't see why you think that anyone would be offended by that, the lyrics are (if the sample is indicative of the whole) pretty much on the level of grade school taunts. Of course, that describes every protest song I've ever heard that was made in the last decade or so. If you're going to waste my time by jumping on an overcrowded bandwagon, do so in a matter that shows wit and intelligence. Or at least a modicrum of lyrical capacity.

The quoted lyrics look pretty accurate so far. I'd like to see the whole thing. I was never a big fan of the Rolling Stones. A couple songs I though were pretty good and many were tolerable.

It is interesting that someone would expect this from "holdovers from the 60's" even though the article states they aren't "exactly a band at the forefront of rock 'n' roll activism".


I see a red door and I want to paint it black.

Did you read the bottom of the article that names about 10 other bands that have lyrics that are anti-right wing that are NOT hold overs from the 60's? ;)

Dammit....why do the good artists always have to be left-wingers?

Oh well.

System of a Down's B.Y.O.B. still kicks major ass.

Oh, at around the point that there might be a bit more publicity and another 200 grand in it. I don't see why you think that anyone would be offended by that, the lyrics are (if the sample is indicative of the whole) pretty much on the level of grade school taunts. Of course, that describes every protest song I've ever heard that was made in the last decade or so. If you're going to waste my time by jumping on an overcrowded bandwagon, do so in a matter that shows wit and intelligence. Or at least a modicrum of lyrical capacity.Obviously, you haven't heard "They Want It All" by Crosby and Nash.

Obviously, you haven't heard "They Want It All" by Crosby and Nash.

Or Jackson Browne's "Lives in The Balance"

People should post their favorite activist lyrics in here.... would that be a total threadjack?

People should post their favorite activist lyrics in here.... would that be a total threadjack?

LIVES IN THE BALANCE - Jackson Browne.



I've been waiting for something to happen

For a week or a month or a year

With the blood in the ink of the headlines

And the sound of the crowd in my ear

You might ask what it takes to remember

When you know that you've seen it before

Where a government lies to a people

And a country is drifting to war



And there's a shadow on the faces

Of the men who send the guns

To the wars that are fought in places

Where their business interest runs



On the radio talk shows and the T.V.

You hear one thing again and again

How the U.S.A. stands for freedom

And we come to the aid of a friend

But who are the ones that we call our friends--

These governments killing their own?

Or the people who finally can't take any more

And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone

There are lives in the balance

There are people under fire

There are children at the cannons

And there is blood on the wire



There's a shadow on the faces

Of the men who fan the flames

Of the wars that are fought in places

Where we can't even say the names



They sell us the President the same way

They sell us our clothes and our cars

They sell us every thing from youth to religion

The same time they sell us our wars

I want to know who the men in the shadows are

I want to hear somebody asking them why

They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are

But they're never the ones to fight or to die

And there are lives in the balance

There are people under fire

There are children at the cannons

And there is blood on the wire

/hijack :D

"I hate those people who love to tell you
Money is the root of all that kills
They have never been poor
They have never had the joy of a welfare christmas"

consider the topic jacked.

This is only one song, probably with more to come
And I've edited repeats for length concerns :)
2+2=5 -- Radiohead

Are you such a dreamer
To put the world to rights?
I stay home forever
Where two and two always makes up five

I lay down the tracks
Sandbag and hide
January has april's showers
And two and two always makes up five

Its the devil's way now
There is no way out
You can scream it, you can shout
It is too late now

Because

You have not been paying attention
paying attention
You have not been paying attention
paying attention

I try to sing along
But I get it all wrong
'Cause I’m not
I swat 'em like flies but like flies the bugs keep coming back NOT
But I’m not
All hail to the thief
But I'm not
Don't question my authority or put me in the dock
'Cause I'm not
Oh go and tell the king that the sky is falling in
When it's not
But it's not
Maybe not

Hey! Looks like someone knows how to write for a target audience! Yay! All those years of marketing classes finally paid off for the 'stones!

(I like Green Day and Radiohead much better anyways.)

They didn't entitle it "Sympathy of the Jihad". :D

"I held a boxcutter's shank
when the WTC flight laid waste
and the bodies stank...
pleased to meet you,
hope you guessed my name..."

Dammit....why do the good artists always have to be left-wingers?


Because right wingers have jobs... ;)

It's a shame that Refused Are Fucking Dead. Long live Refused.

Because right wingers have jobs... ;)
Oh, thanks for letting me know that a lot of people I know don't actually have jobs! :D Or maybe it's because right-wingers aren't creative enough! :p Which is not true...there's always country music! And lynyrd skynyrd.

The best artists are left-wingers because artists (and left-wingers) are the kinds of people that respect truth and beauty and right-wingers respect only money and could care less about anything but looking out for number 1.

Because right wingers have jobs... ;)

I dunno, I think a band that tours just about all year round and has done so for as long if not longer than you've been alive and is worth more money than you'll ever see in your life is called a job! Besides, right wingers are just not as creative. Every one knows the right are about as exciting as a wet noodle! Unless it comes to war! ;)

The best artists are left-wingers because artists (and left-wingers) are the kinds of people that respect truth and beauty and right-wingers respect only money and could care less about anything but looking out for number 1.

Sad, but true.

Oh, thanks for letting me know that a lot of people I know don't actually have jobs! :D Or maybe it's because right-wingers aren't creative enough! :p Which is not true...there's always country music! And lynyrd skynyrd.


OH God I heard the most god aweful country song about patriotism the other day. At first I thought it might be a parody making fun of those types of songs, but it was for real.

about as exciting as a wet noodle

...Did anyone else get an extremely disturbing mental image from this...?

Every one knows the right are about as exciting as a wet noodle! Unless it comes to war! ;)

Nah, even then they're pretty boring. Shock & Awe? YAWN. Meanwhile:

Mr Insurgent: I'M IN UR BASE!! I'M KILLIN UR MANS!

...Did anyone else get an extremely disturbing mental image from this...?

Hehe, it's just a figure of speech my dear, that is all. :p

Hehe, it's just a figure of speech my dear, that is all. :p

But still!

Agh!!!

Er, I'd disagree on the left-winger/right-winger artists thing. It's more of how society treats each group. Folks who have jobs and secure job prospects earlier on are typically more comfortable, and an evolution to conservatism occurs there. Whilst artists tend to start off a bit more rough off, and less secure, as such, conservatism doesn't set in there. It's not a vision/beauty thing. It's a sociological factor

Oh, thanks for letting me know that a lot of people I know don't actually have jobs! :D Or maybe it's because right-wingers aren't creative enough! :p Which is not true...there's always country music! And lynyrd skynyrd.

What I was getting at is that few folks are into the arts to make money. The passion for the form comes first and foremost. That's kind of incompatible with capitalism, and (by extension) conservatism.

Er, I'd disagree on the left-winger/right-winger artists thing. It's more of how society treats each group. Folks who have jobs and secure job prospects earlier on are typically more comfortable, and an evolution to conservatism occurs there. Whilst artists tend to start off a bit more rough off, and less secure, as such, conservatism doesn't set in there. It's not a vision/beauty thing. It's a sociological factor

Most people's politics shift wildly to the right once they buy real estate.

Nah, even then they're pretty boring. Shock & Awe? YAWN.

No, not the actual war itself, I mean them all sitting around the table laughing and giggling about all the money they're going to make their friends like Lockheed Martin and Halliburton.. :gundge:

OH God I heard the most god aweful country song about patriotism the other day. At first I thought it might be a parody making fun of those types of songs, but it was for real.
I try to stay away from country as much as I can. It all sounds the same anyway and every song repeats the same mantras over and over -- God Bless America/U.S.A., Jesus loves you, NASCAR is cool, I have sex with my daughter/sister/wife/mother/dog/car, I'm a blind patriot, the Union sucks (lynyrd skynyrd only). :D

Sad, but true.

Thats why the left-wingers, who don't have jobs apparently (therefore we could assume that they are the ones with the least amount of money) are willing to let a portion of their taxes go into supporting the arts, public radio and television (spreading of non-corporate news and educational shows) and helping other disadvantaged people.

Dammit....why do the good artists always have to be left-wingers?

Oh well.

System of a Down's B.Y.O.B. still kicks major ass.


because modern music by its very nature is progressive and liberal, its only natural that those feelings spill over from the art to politics

Most people's politics shift wildly to the right once they buy real estate.

Hah! Tell that to Thatcher. :D

because modern music by its very nature is progressive and liberal, its only natural that those feelings spill over from the art to politics
I'd have to say that we now have our third theory as to why etc...

I dunno, I think a band that tours just about all year round and has done so for as long if not longer than you've been alive and is worth more money than you'll ever see in your life is called a job! Besides, right wingers are just not as creative. Every one knows the right are about as exciting as a wet noodle! Unless it comes to war! ;)

I hope you understand that it was meant as a joke...

I'm not saying that artists are unemployed. I'm saying that most artists get into their art form for expression, not for the money.
Most right wingers tend towards capitalism/business, thus relatively few end up in the arts. Public funding is anathema to laisse-fair/minimalist government.

Eh... it's hit or miss. Some right wingers are VERY creative... take Michael Milkin or Charlton Heston.
I'll grant, however, that it's unlikely that the right would ever produce a Madonna or Salvatore Dali. ;)

Most people's politics shift wildly to the right once they buy real estate.

Exactly, the people who's life goal is to make money (greedy) are conservative. ALthough I bought a nice new house lately and that hasn'tt happened to me. I work hard but money is a tool that I am forced into using.

Hah! Tell that to Thatcher. :D

:confused: A little background, please?

Most people's politics shift wildly to the right once they buy real estate.

Bull - I've owned two houses and I'm a proud liberal and always will be. I also make a 6 figure salary. Gee, such stereotyping, tisk, tisk!

Maybe I despise artists because I'm personally terrible at it. Not that I cannot visualize something grand and wonderful, but that my skills are zero. I can't play music for the life of me (despite four years of high school band, another three of middle school and a year of elementary school.) I took Art 1 my senior year of high school, and my lines weren't straight and I had an immense distaste for the projects and the mediums we used. Maybe right-wingers are like me and they're bitter!

(Theory number four)

Bull - I've owned two houses and I'm a proud liberal and always will be. I also make a 6 figure salary. Gee, such stereotyping, tisk, tisk!

Originally Posted by Markreich
Most people's politics shift wildly to the right once they buy real estate.

...What part of MOST means EVERYONE? :headbang:

:)

I try to stay away from country as much as I can. It all sounds the same anyway and every song repeats the same mantras over and over -- God Bless America/U.S.A., Jesus loves you, NASCAR is cool, I have sex with my daughter/sister/wife/mother/dog/car, I'm a blind patriot, the Union sucks (lynyrd skynyrd only). :D

I do too and I agree with all of that. *shudder*

The song I heard was on the radio at a clients as I was updating their database.

Originally Posted by Markreich
Most people's politics shift wildly to the right once they buy real estate.

...What part of MOST means EVERYONE? :headbang:

:)

Well, everyone I know is a liberal and they all own real estate. Maybe it's because I'm Canadian. *shrug*

Exactly, the people who's life goal is to make money (greedy) are conservative. ALthough I bought a nice new house lately and that hasn'tt happened to me. I work hard but money is a tool that I am forced into using.

Congrats!!

It's a slow creep. I used to be a lot more liberal before I bought my house and worked in an inner city school system for 3 years...

Tearing this away from real-estate, I've got two words that describe my opinion about the Rolling Stones -- Dixie Chicks.

Congrats!!

It's a slow creep. I used to be a lot more liberal before I bought my house and worked in an inner city school system for 3 years...


Thanks! And don't scare me! I doubt it will happen I have way too much heart to be a conservative. I still help out the disadvantaged even when I barely have anything in my own pockets. I am non-violent and don't believe war is ever the answer unless you are defending yourself.

Tearing this away from real-estate, I've got two words that describe my opinion about the Rolling Stones -- Dixie Chicks.
So--you think the Rolling Stones are really a female country trio?

So--you think the Rolling Stones are really a female country trio?
Nope, but I think they deserve the same opportunity to handle criticism.

It's a shame that Refused Are Fucking Dead. Long live Refused.

Indeed.

[CHORUS]
In a world gone mad it's hard to think right
So much violence hate and spite
Murder going on all day and night
Due time we fight the non-violent fight

Mirrors, smokescreens and lies
It's not the politicians but their actions I despise
You and Saddam should kick it like back in the day
With the cocaine and Courvoisier
But you build more bombs as you get more bold
As your mid-life crisis war unfolds
All you want to do is take control
Now put that axis of evil bullshit on hold
Citizen rule number 2080
Politicians are shady
So people watch your back 'cause I think they smoke crack
I don't doubt it look at how they act

[CHORUS]
In a world gone mad it's hard to think right
So much violence hate and spite
Murder going on all day and night
Due time we fight the non-violent fight

First the 'War On Terror' now war on Iraq
We're reaching a point where we can't turn back
Let's lose the guns and let's lose the bombs
And stop the corporate contributions that their built upon
Well I'll be sleeping on your speeches 'til I start to snore
'Cause I won't carry guns for an oil war
As-Salamu alaikum, wa alaikum assalam
Peace to the Middle East peace to Islam
Now don't get us wrong 'cause we love America
But that's no reason to get hysterica (lol)
They're layin' on the syrup thick
We ain't waffles we ain't havin' it

[CHORUS]
In a world gone mad it's hard to think right
So much violence hate and spite
Murder going on all day and night
Due time we fight the non-violent fight

Now how many people must get killed?
For oil families pockets to get filled?
How many oil families get killed?
Not a damn one so what's the deal?

It's time to lead the way and de-escalate
Lose the weapons of mass destruction and the hate
Say ooh ah what's the White House doin'?
Oh no! Say, what in tarnation have they got brewing?!
Well I'm not pro Bush and I'm not pro Saddam
We need these fools to remain calm
George Bush you're looking like Zoolander
Trying to play tough for the camera
What am I on crazy pills? We've got to stop it
Get your hand out my grandma's pocket
We need health care more than going to war
You think it's democracy they're fighting for?

[CHORUS]
In a world gone mad it's hard to think right
So much violence hate and spite
Murder going on all day and night
Due time we fight the non-violent fight


I agree B Boyz

So--you think the Rolling Stones are really a female country trio?

It would certainly explain some of Mick's wardrobe over the years... :D

Well, everyone I know is a liberal and they all own real estate. Maybe it's because I'm Canadian. *shrug*

I'm in the middle... I lean "liberal" or "conservative", depending on the issue. But I was a lot more liberal when I was younger/didn't own property.

Could be!

The best artists are left-wingers because artists (and left-wingers) are the kinds of people that respect truth and beauty and right-wingers respect only money and could care less about anything but looking out for number 1.

That's a bullshit stereotype and you know it.

I'm a right winger, and I don't give a shit about how much I make right now (which more than likely, is less than everyone here). I look out for my friends and family before myself, thanks.

And, I'm somewhat of an artist myself.

Nope, but I think they deserve the same opportunity to handle criticism.

I think unlike the Dixie Chicks, The Rolling Stones are an institution that no political song/comment can tear down. Nothing nor nobody but The Rolling Stones could ever end their careers. In fact, they'd probably take that criticism and write a new song about it..lol :D

Nope, but I think they deserve the same opportunity to handle criticism.

Yeah, except there aren't any jingoistic rednecks bigger than The Rolling Stones to throw propaganda about them either.

That's a bullshit stereotype and you know it.

I'm a right winger, and I don't give a shit about how much I make right now. I look out for my friends and family before myself, thanks.

And, I'm somewhat of an artist myself.

Yeah, there are plenty of right-wing musicians!

Like uh...well, excluding those nazi punk bands like Skrewdriver...there's Johnny Ramone...Lynrydhoweveryouspellit...and...I think that's it.

;)

That's a bullshit stereotype and you know it.

I'm a right winger, and I don't give a shit about how much I make right now (which more than likely, is less than everyone here). I look out for my friends and family before myself, thanks.

And, I'm somewhat of an artist myself.

You are right. I am sorry I generalized. I got mad because of the left-wingers don't have jobs joke.

Nope, but I think they deserve the same opportunity to handle criticism.
Oh, I imagine they'll weather the storm pretty well. That's the advantage of being living legends, even if they passed their primes twenty-five years ago--the enormous power to tell large segments of the populace to jam it.

I think unlike the Dixie Chicks, The Rolling Stones are an institution that no political song/comment can tear down. Nothing nor nobody but The Rolling Stones could ever end their careers. In fact, they'd probably take that criticism and write a new song about it..lol :D

The Stones are also not stopping a performance while overseas and saying that they're embarrassed that their world leader is from the same part of the country that they are from...

world leader

Huh? Since when did we have a world leader? Last time I checked almost every country had it's own leader.

The Stones are also not stopping a performance while overseas and saying that they're embarrassed that their world leader is from the same part of the country that they are from...
Well--are they from the same part of England as Blair? Hell if I know. :rolleyes:

Please tell me the reason
behind the colors that you fly
love just one nation
and the whole world we divide
you say you’re “sorry”
say, “there is no other choice”
but god bless the people them
who cannot raise their voice

(chorus)
we can chase down all our enemies
bring them to their knees
we can bomb the world to pieces
but we can’t bomb it into peace
whoa we may even find a solution
to hunger and disease
we can bomb the world to pieces
but we can’t bomb it into peace

violence brings one thing
more more of the same
military madness
the smell of flesh and burning pain
so I sing out to the masses
stand up if you’re still sane!
To all of us gone crazy
I sing this one refrain

(chorus)

and I sing power to the peaceful
love to the people y’all
power to the peaceful
love to the people y’all

Reminds me of the saying, Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity.

Well--are they from the same part of England as Blair? Hell if I know. :rolleyes:

Even if they are, I doubt it would stop them from saying whatever the hell they damn well pleased. Wouldn't hurt them one bit. I mean we are talking about The Rolling Stones here. Not personally my favourite band, but as you pointed out correctly, living legends. No comment will change that.

you know as well as I do this is totally retarded.

I already admitted that it wasn't true a few posts back (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9414743&postcount=59). :p

Yeah, there are plenty of right-wing musicians!

Like uh...well, excluding those nazi punk bands like Skrewdriver...there's Johnny Ramone...Lynrydhoweveryouspellit...and...I think that's it.

;)


God, man- you forgot Ted Nugent? :D

I already admitted that it wasn't true a few posts back (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9414743&postcount=59). :p

yes, Sir-you did. I'm sorry- I was reading posts in order and responded too soon.
Accordingly, I have deleted my angry post responding to yours.

My appologies.

God, man- you forgot Ted Nugent? :D

my uncle being a DJ in Vegas is friends with Ted Nugent. His mom, my gramma, baked Ted Nuget cookies and now is Ted Nugents adopted mom.

Having a bunch of rock & roll dinosaurs take a jab at you with their latest weak, watered down version of a "rock song" might be disturbing, but mostly it's just laughable. I wish Keith would OD already, the world has had enough of the Rolling Wheelchairs.

The Stones are my favorite band.. they've made plenty of controversial songs. Still they are my favorite band and that won't change.

It is a pretty stupid immature song though.. I've seen some of the lyrics... and I don't think Keith really liked it.

Unlike Bruce Springsteen who I used to like (but not anymore), this one song is not going to change anything. I still have tickets to go to their concert in Anaheim on November 4th.. and I paid $120.

my uncle being a DJ in Vegas is friends with Ted Nugent. His mom, my gramma, baked Ted Nuget cookies and now is Ted Nugents adopted mom.


Thats cool! Though he comes off as a little nutty on the various shows-I see a guy with some dough and a pretty wife having a good time.
I mostly agree with him. I really like him.

yes, Sir-you did. I'm sorry- I was reading posts in order and responded too soon.
Accordingly, I have deleted my angry post responding to yours.

My appologies.
That's a classy thing to do--you have my respect and admiration for that.

A bunch of us could learn a thing or two from that kind of conduct.

Stones Jab at 'Hypocrite' Patriots in New Song (http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/music/article.adp?id=20050810072209990023&ncid=NWS00010000000001)

How bad do you have to be to get the Rolling Stones to write an angry song about you?
Well ... looks like I'll just have to add the Rolling Stones to the trash heap that already includes dickwads like the Dixie Chicks, Barbara Striesand and others with all the intellect of a fucking brick. Pity.

Sons and daughters of a dream
The urge to struggle for an ideal
To stay and fight
Oppose war fever
Refuse to kill or be killed

There's voices calling in the wind

Power to the Peaceful
Power to the peaceful
Whoa-oh!

Let's Go!
Oh yeah!
Alright!

With a readiness for war
They come down hard in dissent of all forms
Blood and militarism has swept the country by storm

There's voices calling in the wind

Power to the Peaceful
Power to the Peaceful
Whoa-oh!
Power to the Peaceful
Power to the Peaceful
Whoa-oh!

This is not a war
of the urging people
This is not a war
of economic independance
It's a war for conquest
It's a war for military power
It's a war for money
The road to universal slaughter

Sons and daughters of a dream
The urge to struggle for an ideal
To stay and fight
Oppose war fever
Refuse to kill or be killed

There's voices calling in the wind
Power to the Peaceful
You know it's Power to the Peaceful

Alright, check this out
There's repression and intolerance
On any deviation from the norm
In all factions of your life
At this time of entry
Into war say Hey-Hey
Do you know what they sing. Say Hey! - Hey!
Yeah you know what they sing. Say Hey! - Hey!
Do you know what they sing? Say Hey! - Hey! - Hey!

Power to the Peaceful
Power to the Peaceful
Whoa-oh!
Power to the Peaceful
Power to the Peaceful
Whoa-oh!
Alright!
Whoa-oh! Whoa-oh! Whoa-oh!
Yeah!


The list on AOL failed to even mention a number of bands critical of Bush... They only mentioned mainstream stuff.

Well ... looks like I'll just have to add the Rolling Stones to the trash heap that already includes dickwads like the Dixie Chicks, Barbara Striesand and others with all the intellect of a fucking brick. Pity.

Look they are a great band and they make great music.. those others suck.. it is an insult to a good band...

yes, Sir-you did. I'm sorry- I was reading posts in order and responded too soon.
Accordingly, I have deleted my angry post responding to yours.

My appologies.


No worries - it was a valid response to such a comment.

Yes it takes a genius not to question their govt. but the "intellect of a fucking brick" to have an opposing viewpoint and express it publically.

That's a classy thing to do--you have my respect and admiration for that.

A bunch of us could learn a thing or two from that kind of conduct.


Well thanks. I'm usually such a heathen. Maybe someone will cut me a little slack some day.

Well ... looks like I'll just have to add the Rolling Stones to the trash heap that already includes dickwads like the Dixie Chicks, Barbara Striesand and others with all the intellect of a fucking brick. Pity.

Ooohkay. It is a scary day when expressing a political opinion through art causes one to be treated as though they have the intellect of a "fucking brick"...

Because right wingers have jobs... ;)
Being an artist isn't a job?

Er, I'd disagree on the left-winger/right-winger artists thing. It's more of how society treats each group. Folks who have jobs and secure job prospects earlier on are typically more comfortable, and an evolution to conservatism occurs there. Whilst artists tend to start off a bit more rough off, and less secure, as such, conservatism doesn't set in there. It's not a vision/beauty thing. It's a sociological factor
I think that this is probably the case.

I don't believe war is ever the answer unless you are defending yourself.
That's rather dogmatic.

But I was a lot more liberal when I was younger/didn't own property.
Of course people become more conservative when they buy land. The purpose of a right-wing government is to protect property from the majority.

I'm a right winger, and I don't give a shit about how much I make right now (which more than likely, is less than everyone here). I look out for my friends and family before myself, thanks.

You live with your family, right? You look after them because they look after you. Congratulations. You have just discovered the joy of living in a mini-communist system.

Although I have to admit I can see the reason for the dismay. If there were lots of conservative popular bands and they had so much public attention and got a lot of media for saying stuff that was against or put down the stuff I believed in I would probably go the easy route and say disparraging things about their intellect as well.

Although I have to admit I can see the reason for the dismay. If there were lots of conservative popular bands and they had so much public attention and got a lot of media for saying stuff that was against or put down the stuff I believed in I would probably go the easy route and say disparraging things about their intellect as well.

Well, the world around me is ruled by conservatives, and I don't...

That's rather dogmatic.

How so? Maybe my wording was wierd. I don't believe war is a proper action to take unless you are defending yourself.

I just dont like when entertainers- actors, musicians, etc... start taking political stances on things. Its certainly their right to do so, but I think it just sours things and contributes to this constant animosity.

We already have the media keeping us riled up all the time. Democrats and Repulicans probably didnt agree with each other 75 yrs ago either, but we didnt have the minute by minute reports that we do now. The media really incites a lot of ill-will. It almost demands that people with opposing view points become enemies and take shots at each other.

Its such a waste of time. Instead of trying to resolve matters looking at them from multiple points of view,we develop a new problem-like who is bouncing checks, getting blowjobs or hiring illegal immigrants to clean their houses.

And now we have entertainers intesifying this storm of never ending bullshit.

I know they can express themselves too, but do we really need their opinions? We look to them for entertainment. I like songs about rage and heartache. Not politics.

I like songs about rage and heartache. Not politics.

Simple. Just ignore them and don't listen to political music. There is plenty of music out there that doesn't have any social conscience.

Huh? Since when did we have a world leader? Last time I checked almost every country had it's own leader.
Steph this may be a threadjack, but why do you always address Americans using "we" as if you are from the same country as them?

Well ... looks like I'll just have to add the Rolling Stones to the trash heap that already includes dickwads like the Dixie Chicks, Barbara Striesand and others with all the intellect of a fucking brick. Pity.
They're stupid because they disagree with you?

Well ... looks like I'll just have to add the Rolling Stones to the trash heap that already includes dickwads like the Dixie Chicks, Barbara Striesand and others with all the intellect of a fucking brick. Pity.

Eutrusca - I thought you were a centrist *giggle* why would them making a song about neo-cons bother you? ;)

Well, the world around me is ruled by conservatives, and I don't...


Are you saying you don't see the reason for the dismay or you don't go the easy route and and flame people for having opposing viewpoints when their opinions are made very well known to the public? I am not saying the majority of conservatives or the majority of liberals would go this route. I am just saying that I understand how frusterating it must be for conservatives and why they must hate hollywood and liberal artists and musicians so much, and why we see comments that are way out of line like Eutruscas.

Anyway just because we know better than to not do something doesn't mean everyone will.

I just dont like when entertainers- actors, musicians, etc... start taking political stances on things. Its certainly their right to do so, but I think it just sours things and contributes to this constant animosity.

We already have the media keeping us riled up all the time. Democrats and Repulicans probably didnt agree with each other 75 yrs ago either, but we didnt have the minute by minute reports that we do now. The media really incites a lot of ill-will. It almost demands that people with opposing view points become enemies and take shots at each other.

Its such a waste of time. Instead of trying to resolve matters looking at them from multiple points of view,we develop a new problem-like who is bouncing checks, getting blowjobs or hiring illegal immigrants to clean their houses.

And now we have entertainers intesifying this storm of never ending bullshit.

I know they can express themselves too, but do we really need their opinions? We look to them for entertainment. I like songs about rage and heartache. Not politics.

Oh my lord, what have we here?

A sensible post!

*Appluads*

w00t! I R LEET!!!

I just dont like when entertainers- actors, musicians, etc... start taking political stances on things. Its certainly their right to do so, but I think it just sours things and contributes to this constant animosity.

We already have the media keeping us riled up all the time. Democrats and Repulicans probably didnt agree with each other 75 yrs ago either, but we didnt have the minute by minute reports that we do now. The media really incites a lot of ill-will. It almost demands that people with opposing view points become enemies and take shots at each other.

Its such a waste of time. Instead of trying to resolve matters looking at them from multiple points of view,we develop a new problem-like who is bouncing checks, getting blowjobs or hiring illegal immigrants to clean their houses.

And now we have entertainers intesifying this storm of never ending bullshit.

I know they can express themselves too, but do we really need their opinions? We look to them for entertainment. I like songs about rage and heartache. Not politics.
Wasn't there a book about that ... "Shut Up And Sing?" :confused:

Ooohkay. It is a scary day when expressing a political opinion through art causes one to be treated as though they have the intellect of a "fucking brick"...
Isn't the rationalizatoin of Eutrusca wonderful?

I just dont like when entertainers- actors, musicians, etc... start taking political stances on things. Its certainly their right to do so, but I think it just sours things and contributes to this constant animosity.

I must agree.. I'm pro-Iraq war, and I'm kinda pissed at the Stones but then again they can voice their own opinion... the song is a pile of BS... but It doesn't really matter as Bush isn't up for re-election (so they are a bit late). But at any rate, I'm still their fan.. I grew up listening to the stones..

Steph this may be a threadjack, but why do you always address Americans using "we" as if you are from the same country as them?

Because technically I am an American, I live in North America. :)

I'm just from the better part of it. ;)

How so? Maybe my wording was wierd. I don't believe war is a proper action to take unless you are defending yourself.
So you think war is never justified? Even if it prevents the killing of many more people than would be killed by the war? For example, the US, USSR and Britain were right to attack Germany. If Hitler hadn't been defeated, many millions more would have died in the Holocaust.

Similarly, if the Sudanese government and Janjaweed had been removed from power a year ago, the ongoing genocide could stop. Similar situation as Rwanda in 1994.

Eutrusca - I thought you were a centrist *giggle* why would them making a song about neo-cons bother you? ;)

It's a lot easier to see James "Jeff Gannon" Guckert as a credible journalist before you can see Forrest as a credible centerist.

Are you saying you don't see the reason for the dismay or you don't go the easy route and and flame people for having opposing viewpoints when their opinions are made very well known to the public? I am not saying the majority of conservatives or the majority of liberals would go this route. I am just saying that I understand how frusterating it must be for conservatives and why they must hate hollywood and liberal artists and musicians so much, and why we see comments that are way out of line like Eutruscas.

Anyway just because we know better than to not do something doesn't mean everyone will.

Well, I did see your point, but our media, government, and culture are dominated by the right wing. Yet I don't think of my fellow countryman as having the intellect of a brick for having differing views despite it being incredibly frustrating at times...so I don't really think I'd take that easy route, to be quite honest.

I just dont like when entertainers- actors, musicians, etc... start taking political stances on things. Its certainly their right to do so, but I think it just sours things and contributes to this constant animosity.

We already have the media keeping us riled up all the time. Democrats and Repulicans probably didnt agree with each other 75 yrs ago either, but we didnt have the minute by minute reports that we do now. The media really incites a lot of ill-will. It almost demands that people with opposing view points become enemies and take shots at each other.

Its such a waste of time. Instead of trying to resolve matters looking at them from multiple points of view,we develop a new problem-like who is bouncing checks, getting blowjobs or hiring illegal immigrants to clean their houses.

And now we have entertainers intesifying this storm of never ending bullshit.

I know they can express themselves too, but do we really need their opinions? We look to them for entertainment. I like songs about rage and heartache. Not politics.

I understand where you are coming from but it'll never stop. I think a big part of all this is not that the focus of media has changed, but the fact that technology is giving us so much more media in so many different ways (tv, radio, internet and whatnot) that we are immersed in it no matter where we go.

Also, I probably have less of a problem with it because when famous people and bands speak out with liberal ideas, I am in agreement and hope that conservatives are havign to listen to a different viewpoint. :D

Although I have to admit I can see the reason for the dismay. If there were lots of conservative popular bands and they had so much public attention and got a lot of media for saying stuff that was against or put down the stuff I believed in I would probably go the easy route and say disparraging things about their intellect as well.
I don't bash Toby Keith, and he's a pretty big name--I just don't listen to him, as is my right. And I ought to note that I'm no fan of the Stones either--I think they're overrated and haven't had a good album since the late 70s, so it's not like I'm palpitating in anticipation for this new one.

But if you've been a fan in the past and now you're going to act like a damn three year old because they're taking a political position that's in opposition to your own (and I mean this generally, not to you Sumamba), then you're pretty pathetic as far as I'm concerned.

It's a lot easier to see James "Jeff Gannon" Guckert as a credible journalist before you can see Forrest as a credible centerist.

I'm not mistaken, he was just left of center on the political compass.

The only issue he really gets into is the Iraq war, so he's seen as a conservative.

I like songs about rage and heartache. Not politics.

That's fair... I like music about rage.... but only in terms of politics. I hate songs about girls and love. I think it's just a matter of agreeing to disagree, because I don't see a point in songs about love and heartache any more than you see a good reason to sing about politics.

And Eutrusca is a centrist like Rush Limbaugh is a centrist. :rolleyes:

Wasn't there a book about that ... "Shut Up And Sing?" :confused:

I havent heard of it yet, but I've often said "Shut up and amuze me".

Also-I generally dont hold the opinions of actors/singers in such high esteem. Wether they agree with me or not. In my opinion, they usually dont spend enough time on Earth.

I will say that Tom Sellick is an exception. I usually agree with him and he usually comports himself as a rational gentleman. You dont have to agree with him to see that.

So you think war is never justified? Even if it prevents the killing of many more people than would be killed by the war? For example, the US, USSR and Britain were right to attack Germany. If Hitler hadn't been defeated, many millions more would have died in the Holocaust.

Similarly, if the Sudanese government and Janjaweed had been removed from power a year ago, the ongoing genocide could stop. Similar situation as Rwanda in 1994.

Yes I do think it is justified. When someone is defending themselves. People went to war with Hitler to edfend themselves not to help others. THis debate will go nowhere though. So I'lls top here.

Britain, the U.S.S.R., and France wre not defending themselves when going to war with Hitler. Well, I guess they should apoligize for "intervening"

:D

Because technically I am an American, I live in North America. :)

I'm just from the better part of it. ;)


Besides you were correct in the first place as you were asking if we have a world leader meaning all of us in the world.

I'm not mistaken, he was just left of center on the political compass.

The only issue he really gets into is the Iraq war, so he's seen as a conservative.

What someone says is not always what someone truly believes. Honesty on an Internet forum is a rare commodity. What some people say and what they do are sometimes two very different things. I also don't buy into the "political compass" stuff either. To easy to get the desired result, instead of the real result.

I havent heard of it yet, but I've often said "Shut up and amuze me".

Also-I generally dont hold the opinions of actors/singers in such high esteem. Wether they agree with me or not. In my opinion, they usually dont spend enough time on Earth.

I will say that Tom Sellick is an exception. I usually agree with him and he usually comports himself as a rational gentleman. You dont have to agree with him to see that.

That's a bit of an unfair double standard - It's not OK for them to sing about politics, but you somehow have the right to have an opinion what their artwork should be. As i've said, if you don't want to hear political songs, don't listen to them. It's easy.

I don't bash Toby Keith, and he's a pretty big name--I just don't listen to him, as is my right. And I ought to note that I'm no fan of the Stones either--I think they're overrated and haven't had a good album since the late 70s, so it's not like I'm palpitating in anticipation for this new one.

But if you've been a fan in the past and now you're going to act like a damn three year old because they're taking a political position that's in opposition to your own (and I mean this generally, not to you Sumamba), then you're pretty pathetic as far as I'm concerned.


Yes, but I'm not saying everyone does it or should. I'm saying I understand the frustration and how easy it is to resort to thoughtlessly bashing someone like I did earlier in this thread and apologized for.

Britain, the U.S.S.R., and France wre not defending themselves when going to war with Hitler. Well, I guess they should apoligize for "intervening"

:D

Exactly when did Iraq bomb the shit out of Pearl Harbor?

:rolleyes:

I understand where you are coming from but it'll never stop. I think a big part of all this is not that the focus of media has changed, but the fact that technology is giving us so much more media in so many different ways (tv, radio, internet and whatnot) that we are immersed in it no matter where we go.

Also, I probably have less of a problem with it because when famous people and bands speak out with liberal ideas, I am in agreement and hope that conservatives are havign to listen to a different viewpoint. :D

I'm afraid you're right. Pretty soon, we'll have satellite feeds that go right into our heads. You'll see people picking fights in the street now-they wont be in their homes anymore, yelling at Bill O'Rielly or Dan Rather on the TV.
There are so many news shows between the networks and cable,they have to keep churning crap out, making stories where there are none.

As a conservative, I do have to listen to a different viewpoint- a lot. I probably feel similar to you.
But, simply because we dont agree-why does one of us HAVE to be a piece of shit? According to our own opinions on how things should be, we could actually BOTH be correct.
But these days, if I-a conservative-am right about something, why do you have to be wrong AND be a scum bag? Or visa versa?
Do you see what I mean? I dont get why one side has to slay the other side. That constant process of one side trying their damdest to shove the other side's face in shit is so destructive and makes us look so petty and ignorant.

Exactly when did Iraq bomb the shit out of Pearl Harbor?

:rolleyes:

Woah, I wasn't even trying to bring the U.S. nor the Iraq war into that point. That was about WW2.

Woah, I wasn't even trying to bring the U.S. nor the Iraq war into that point. That was about WW2.


Ah, the beauty of threads on NS, you don't get to decide what direction they take. You make a comment and you never know what someone will read into it. ;)

I'm afraid you're right. Pretty soon, we'll have satellite feeds that go right into our heads. You'll see people picking fights in the street now-they wont be in their homes anymore, yelling at Bill O'Rielly or Dan Rather on the TV.
There are so many news shows between the networks and cable,they have to keep churning crap out, making stories where there are none.

As a conservative, I do have to listen to a different viewpoint- a lot. I probably feel similar to you.
But, simply because we dont agree-why does one of us HAVE to be a piece of shit? According to our own opinions on how things should be, we could actually BOTH be correct.
But these days, if I-a conservative-am right about something, why do you have to be wrong AND be a scum bag? Or visa versa?
Do you see what I mean? I dont get why one side has to slay the other side. That constant process of one side trying their damdest to shove the other side's face in shit is so destructive and makes us look so petty and ignorant.

This is true.

You can argue and disagree with people with different views civilly, and not flame and insult each other. Both sides, as well as the media, make it out so that the other side is the enemy.

Ah, the beauty of threads on NS, you don't get to decide what direction they take. You make a comment and you never know what someone will read into it. ;)

Too true. :p

Ah, the beauty of threads on NS, you don't get to decide what direction they take. You make a comment and you never know what someone will read into it. ;)
That's what occasionally makes it exciting for a second or two...then it gets boring again. Which is why I'm off to go eat lunch now.

Woah, I wasn't even trying to bring the U.S. nor the Iraq war into that point. That was about WW2.

The phrase "apologize for intervening" made it a jab at the critics of the Iraq invasion.

That's a bit of an unfair double standard - It's not OK for them to sing about politics, but you somehow have the right to have an opinion what their artwork should be. As i've said, if you don't want to hear political songs, don't listen to them. It's easy.

Yes-you're right. I did recognize their right to sing about whatever they want. Its their medium.
And yes-no one is forcing me to listen to them. They have freedom of speech and I in no way would suggest that be curtailed in the slightest.

My point is just that I feel they contibute to this general animosity. There is no solution, just more to bicker about, more hard feelings.

As for Tony Keith-the message I got-maybe I was looking for in his songs, was more pro America, rather than putting something else down.

I'm just choking on all the negatives.

And I hate that it takes a horrible tragedy to get liberals, conservatives, democrats and republicans to stand together and hold hands and appear united.
They should appear that way simply to celebrate how good we have it here, even when we arent in danger.

The phrase "apologize for intervening" made it a jab at the critics of the Iraq invasion.

No, it didn't.

Don't put words into people's mouths. :)

I'm afraid you're right. Pretty soon, we'll have satellite feeds that go right into our heads. You'll see people picking fights in the street now-they wont be in their homes anymore, yelling at Bill O'Rielly or Dan Rather on the TV.
There are so many news shows between the networks and cable,they have to keep churning crap out, making stories where there are none.

I know it's like :headbang:

I think what needs to happen is a change in the way the majority of people look at infotainment. Too many people take it seriously and accept everythign they hear as irrefutable fact.

As a conservative, I do have to listen to a different viewpoint- a lot. I probably feel similar to you.
But, simply because we dont agree-why does one of us HAVE to be a piece of shit? According to our own opinions on how things should be, we could actually BOTH be correct.
But these days, if I-a conservative-am right about something, why do you have to be wrong AND be a scum bag? Or visa versa?
Do you see what I mean? I dont get why one side has to slay the other side. That constant process of one side trying their damdest to shove the other side's face in shit is so destructive and makes us look so petty and ignorant.

I didnt call you or people who disagree with me a piece of shit :confused:

I agree completely that we can both be correct. There are as many realities as there are people. Of course many of us like to have our reality be the most accepted one :p

Yes-you're right. I did recognize their right to sing about whatever they want. Its their medium.
And yes-no one is forcing me to listen to them. They have freedom of speech and I in no way would suggest that be curtailed in the slightest.

My point is just that I feel they contibute to this general animosity. There is no solution, just more to bicker about, more hard feelings.

As for Tony Keith-the message I got-maybe I was looking for in his songs, was more pro America, rather than putting something else down.

I'm just choking on all the negatives.

And I hate that it takes a horrible tragedy to get liberals, conservatives, democrats and republicans to stand together and hold hands and appear united.
They should appear that way simply to celebrate how good we have it here, even when we arent in danger.

Fair enough...that's politics for you, I guess. :)

This is true.

You can argue and disagree with people with different views civilly, and not flame and insult each other. Both sides, as well as the media, make it out so that the other side is the enemy.

Yeah-instead of disagreeing and keeping the problem at hand the subject and hammering it out with our checks and balances, we have to plant dirt on each other-find out whose mother's a whore and whose brother is a drunk and who had anal with their prom date 45 yrs ago.

How much time, money and attention does this waste? And how much does this cost America's image.
We are constantly feeding the malcontents that need little reason to dislike us-lending validity to their existance.

And I hate that it takes a horrible tragedy to get liberals, conservatives, democrats and republicans to stand together and hold hands and appear united.
They should appear that way simply to celebrate how good we have it here, even when we arent in danger.

It took three rewrites of this before it was in any shape to post... And I'm still gonna come across as a jackass.

I see the animosity as a good thing. I want to take the fight to the right and take back human rights. The more and more people talk the more and more I realize we can't "just get along"

The was a time a long time ago when the image of unity was a positive one. Now all I see is the tyranny that would be created by one side or the other. Being united in differences is one thing, but I don't think America can be. If unity were to happen it would be in similarity, which would result in tyranny.

I'm afraid you're right. Pretty soon, we'll have satellite feeds that go right into our heads. You'll see people picking fights in the street now-they wont be in their homes anymore, yelling at Bill O'Rielly or Dan Rather on the TV.
There are so many news shows between the networks and cable,they have to keep churning crap out, making stories where there are none.

As a conservative, I do have to listen to a different viewpoint- a lot. I probably feel similar to you.
But, simply because we dont agree-why does one of us HAVE to be a piece of shit? According to our own opinions on how things should be, we could actually BOTH be correct.
But these days, if I-a conservative-am right about something, why do you have to be wrong AND be a scum bag? Or visa versa?
Do you see what I mean? I dont get why one side has to slay the other side. That constant process of one side trying their damdest to shove the other side's face in shit is so destructive and makes us look so petty and ignorant.It's already happening. A couple of days ago I read a story about two men at a gun show, men who had known each other for years and who everyone else thought were friends, get into an argument over the Iraq war, draw down on each other and one killed the other. It's already spilling out into the streets.

As to the one side having to slay the other--this is going to sound like I'm only defending my own, and I'm not, because there are plenty of overly-pc liberals who think that the other side shouldn't have the right to make what they consider to be racist or sexist arguments, etc., and I reject them firmly. But when you have people who claim to be mainstream--like Bill O'Reilly--saying that the ACLU, and judges that side with the ACLU are terror allies (Jon Stewart excerpted it on the Daily Show a little while back, so there's video available), then you've got to ask yourself who's talking more of an eliminationist game?

If liberals are known for anything--and we're often mocked for it--it's for being willing to see and consider the opposing side of issues. That gets translated by assholes like Limbaugh into being wishy-washy or wanting to coddle terrorists instead of defeat them, and the subtext that those assholes spew is that liberals make the country weak and we ought to get rid of them. And those assholes are an increasingly dominating voice in the conservative movement. So if I get a bit defensive or up in arms when conservatives ask why there's so much tension between parties or ideologies in this country, you'll have to forgive me--liberals aren't blameless, but we're not the majority of the problem.

It's a lot easier to see James "Jeff Gannon" Guckert as a credible journalist before you can see Forrest as a credible centerist.
( shrug ) So sue me! :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephistan
Did you read the bottom of the article that names about 10 other bands that have lyrics that are anti-right wing that are NOT hold overs from the 60's?



Dammit....why do the good artists always have to be left-wingers?

Oh well.

System of a Down's B.Y.O.B. still kicks major ass.


Ummmm

Compassion
Common Sense
A Repudiation of Selfishness and Narrow Mindedness

( shrug ) So sue me! :D


Shhh,... Don't say that in modern day America... The lawyers might hear you!

I know it's like :headbang:


I didnt call you or people who disagree with me a piece of shit :confused:




No-I know you didnt-I was speaking in general terms. In today's climate, it seems people cant just have opposing views-they also have to make strong efforts to invalidate or disqualify the other, because their is apparently only one real way to do things.

None of my ranting is directed at you-please remember that if it seems I'm getting personal. I dont mean to, I'm just speaking of people in general.

Well, I did see your point, but our media, government, and culture are dominated by the right wing. Yet I don't think of my fellow countryman as having the intellect of a brick for having differing views despite it being incredibly frustrating at times...so I don't really think I'd take that easy route, to be quite honest.
No, no. You got it wrong. It's not "the intellect of a brick..."


... it's "the intellect of a fucking brick." [ think Barbara Striesand, Alex Baldwin, et al ] If you're going to quote me, do it right. :)

As for Tony Keith-the message I got-maybe I was looking for in his songs, was more pro America, rather than putting something else down.

Which means you haven't heard of or chose to ignore "The Taliban."

"I'm just a middle-aged, middle-eastern camel herdin' man
I got a, 2 bedroom cave here in North Afghanistan
Things used to be real cool and they got out of hand when they moved in
They call themselves the Taliban
(ooooo yeah the taliban) (taliban baby)

Now I ain't seen my wife's face since they came here
They make her wear a scarf over her head that covers her from ear to ear
She loves the desert and the hot white sand
But man she's just like me, nah she can't stand
The Taliban (ooo taliban baby)

You know someday soon we're both gonna saddle up and it'll be
Ride Camel Ride
My old lady she'll be here with me, smilin right by my side
We should do just fine down in Palestine or maybe Turkmenistan
We'll bid a fair adieu and flip the finger to the Taliban
(oh yeah the taliban) (baby)

Now they attacked New York City cause they thought they could win
Said they would, stand and fight until the very bloody end
Mr Bush got on the phone with Iraq and Iran and said "Now, you
knuckle-heads you better not be doin any business with the taliban"
(Taliban baby)

So we prayed to Allah with all of our might
And then those big U.S. jets came flyin one night
They dropped little bombs all over our holy land
And man you should have seen em run like rabbits, they ran
(the taliban)

You know someday soon we're both gonna saddle up and it'll be
Ride Camel Ride
My old lady she'll be here with me, smilin right by my side
We should do real fine down around Palestine or maybe Turkmenistan
We'll bid a fair audo and flip a couple fingers to the Taliban
(oh yeah, taliban)
we'll bid a fair adieu and flip a finger to The Taliban (baby)"

The song while supposedly is directed at the Taliban, the bolded parts are either just ignorant racist stereotypes or a plain outright lie.

Not to mention that the Taliban are in the middle of a resurgence in Afghanistan because of Bush's half-assed Middle East operations.

So if I get a bit defensive or up in arms when conservatives ask why there's so much tension between parties or ideologies in this country, you'll have to forgive me--liberals aren't blameless, but we're not the majority of the problem.

I think the majority of the problem isnt liberals or conservatives- its more those AMONG BOTH that have become so intolerant.

Things arent nearly so bad in this country that the opposition needs to be annihilated.

That gets translated by assholes like Limbaugh into being wishy-washy or wanting to coddle terrorists instead of defeat them, and the subtext that those assholes spew is that liberals make the country weak and we ought to get rid of them.


And it pissed me of soooo bad that I get flamey back. My bad.

But this thread (despite those who are unable to be reasonable) is showing us (the left and right) a chance to see how we can see each others point of view with more understanding and less bashing. See the Rolling Stones did help do somethign right :p

um...what's this have to do? with nations

No-I know you didnt-I was speaking in general terms. In today's climate, it seems people cant just have opposing views-they also have to make strong efforts to invalidate or disqualify the other, because their is apparently only one real way to do things.

None of my ranting is directed at you-please remember that if it seems I'm getting personal. I dont mean to, I'm just speaking of people in general.


Although there is evidence that I do get hot-headed and make unreasonable statements, I completely agree with you that that is not the right way to conduct any discussion.

Which means you haven't heard of or chose to ignore "The Taliban."





I really hadnt heard that one. I was referring to the one I think is "the American Soldier" ?

I can feel patriotic without being racist or ignorant. And I didnt say all of Toby keith's stuff was fantastic. I was reffering to the one I felt was pro America.

I am just saying that I understand how frusterating it must be for conservatives and why they must hate hollywood and liberal artists and musicians so much, and why we see comments that are way out of line like Eutruscas.
Oh the poor guys, they only have a stranglehold on the media throughout the entire western hemisphere (Rupert Murdoch, Axel Springer).

Because technically I am an American, I live in North America. :)
No, I mean why do you speak as if you are from the United States of America? No dodging, I want a straight answer! Also, don't address me as "my dear".

Although there is evidence that I do get hot-headed and make unreasonable statements, I completely agree with you that that is not the right way to conduct any discussion.


And if we were having a beer, I wouldnt even discuss this shit.

We'd be talking about banging Sin in the baloon knot.

Right Eutrusca?

I was reffering to the one I felt was pro America.

The problem is that being pro-America in todays world means being a nationalist supportive of human-rights abuses, unprovoked attacks, and a "with us or against us" foreign policy. It's not a positive at all, bur rather a negative, racist, sexist, and hateful thing.

But meh... I'm not Pro-any country, lines in the sand mean nothing anyway.

I havent heard of it yet, but I've often said "Shut up and amuze me".

Also-I generally dont hold the opinions of actors/singers in such high esteem. Wether they agree with me or not. In my opinion, they usually dont spend enough time on Earth.

I will say that Tom Sellick is an exception. I usually agree with him and he usually comports himself as a rational gentleman. You dont have to agree with him to see that.
Here it is. I knew I had heard something about this book:


http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/9601/shutupandsing2ub.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261014/104-2140598-2491927?v=glance)

Oh the poor guys, they only have a stranglehold on the media throughout the entire western hemisphere (Rupert Murdoch, Axel Springer).


No, I mean why do you speak as if you are from the United States of America? No dodging, I want a straight answer! Also, don't address me as "my dear".


It does take a little effort to see both sides of the story. T'aint always easy.

As for Stephs "we", if you read it in context she was actually saying "we" as world citizens

The problem is that being pro-America in todays world means being a nationalist supportive of human-rights abuses, unprovoked attacks, and a "with us or against us" foreign policy. It's not a positive at all, bur rather a negative, racist, sexist, and hateful thing.

But meh... I'm not Pro-any country, lines in the sand mean nothing anyway.

Thats not true in my case, or the case of any other American I know.

Maybe its more a case of what your media subjects you to.

I think the majority of the problem isnt liberals or conservatives- its more those AMONG BOTH that have become so intolerant.

Things arent nearly so bad in this country that the opposition needs to be annihilated.
I go even farther than that--I think the second you start talking about annihilating the opposition, you've lost sight of what the US is supposed to be about. We are who we are because of our diversity of opinion, because of our heterogeneity. It is our greatest strength as a nation.

And it's my love and respect for diversity that makes me a liberal.

The problem is that being pro-America in todays world means being a nationalist supportive of human-rights abuses, unprovoked attacks, and a "with us or against us" foreign policy. It's not a positive at all, bur rather a negative, racist, sexist, and hateful thing.
Oh Bulllshit! That's simply untrue and that all there is to it. Christ! And I get dinged for making statements that don't fit certain people's ideas of what a "centrist" ought to be! [ curses and throws things ] :D

And if we were having a beer, I wouldnt even discuss this shit.

We'd be talking about banging Sin in the baloon knot.

Right Eutrusca?



lol Got that right!

Here it is. I knew I had heard something about this book:


http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/9601/shutupandsing2ub.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261014/104-2140598-2491927?v=glance)

Thank you, Sir. Its certainly seems worth a read. I'll check the library.

I go even farther than that--I think the second you start talking about annihilating the opposition, you've lost sight of what the US is supposed to be about. We are who we are because of our diversity of opinion, because of our heterogeneity. It is our greatest strength as a nation.

And it's my love and respect for diversity that makes me a liberal.

Thats right-having numerous different opions and being able to express them-and being protected by the law while doing it.

Its my love and repsect of my country that doesnt make you being liberal a threat to me. You can not agree with me and we can both still live here. And I dont need to find out something bad about you to taint your position.

In the end, all of our opinions seem to have the same end goal. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Oh Bulllshit! That's simply untrue and that all there is to it. Christ! And I get dinged for making statements that don't fit certain people's ideas of what a "centrist" ought to be! [ curses and throws things ] :D

The difference is that I make no claim to being a centrist.

And right now, the word and idea have been subverted by that particular paradigm. I can only hope that will change and being pro-American will not also mean having to be a bigot and a warmonger.

The problem is that being pro-America in todays world means being a nationalist supportive of human-rights abuses, unprovoked attacks, and a "with us or against us" foreign policy. It's not a positive at all, bur rather a negative, racist, sexist, and hateful thing.

But meh... I'm not Pro-any country, lines in the sand mean nothing anyway.


I would say that might be true for some far-right pundits on tv and those on political message boards that can't get enough of said pundits . I don't think that is the case for the majority of conservatives. When the majority of conservatives on this board saw the way some soldiers were treating people in Abu Graib (sp?) they were disgusted as well and wanted them prosecuted.

I am willing to bet that most conservatives would condemn torture in Gitmo as well if they were given proof of it. Although it would seem that some proof isn't enough in some cases and that you need teh ghost of Christmas present (or maybe just some photos like the ones from AG) to take them there and see it happeneing for themselves before they would even consider believing it would happen.

I think the case may be that people go to far in defending their side sometimes because any, however slight, concession might be ammo for the other side so people get unreasonably defensive and bullheaded (like me).

I think many people do take the Pro-American thing too far though. Nationalism is dangerous in my eyes. People shouldn't say God bless America if they were truely compassionate they would say "God bless the world."

Damn it's hard to get all my ideas clearly written down.*

* the above statements always come with many more qualifiers and al lot more explanation than I am currently offering.

Like uh...well, excluding those nazi punk bands like Skrewdriver...there's Johnny Ramone...Lynrydhoweveryouspellit...and...I think that's it.

Ian Stewart Donaldson: dead.
Johnny Ramone: dead.
Ronnie Van Zant, Steve Gaines & Cassie Gaines: dead.

Hey, what d'ya know, there is some justice after all.

Ian Stewart Donaldson: dead.
Johnny Ramone: dead.
Ronnie Van Zant, Steve Gaines & Cassie Gaines: dead.

Hey, what d'ya know, there is some justice after all.


Not cool in my book.

Thats right-having numerous different opions and being able to express them-and being protected by the law while doing it.

Its my love and repsect of my country that doesnt make you being liberal a threat to me. You can not agree with me and we can both still live here. And I dont need to find out something bad about you to taint your position.

In the end, all of our opinions seem to have the same end goal. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You should run for fucking president.

Not cool in my book.

Hey I could list any number of leftist musicians that I appreciate and happen to be dead, but the strange underlying connection in the posted list just strick me.

The difference is that I make no claim to being a centrist.

And right now, the word and idea have been subverted by that particular paradigm. I can only hope that will change and being pro-American will not also mean having to be a bigot and a warmonger.
The real difference is that the scores on every political test I have taken ( I retook the Political Compass test yesterday ), indicates that's where I fall in the rankings ... very close to the center. You don't like that, take it up with the people who create those sorts of tests.

It's definitely not helpful to call me "a bigot and a warmonger." If I called you corresponding names for those of the far left persuasion, you would immediately report me to the mods for falmming, trolling, flame-baiting, and anything else you could think of. This is the type of holier-than-thou hypocrisy which pisses me off at Hollyweird and the rest of the damned elitist, left-wing Mafia. A plague on them! Grrrrr!

I'm not mistaken, he was just left of center on the political compass.

The only issue he really gets into is the Iraq war, so he's seen as a conservative.
Good point. I agree. It's funny I am also pro-Iraq war and to the left on the political compass, yet I am never mistaken for a conservative. I think it's because Eutrusca relentlessly attacks opponents of the war in his partisanship.

Yes I do think it is justified. When someone is defending themselves. People went to war with Hitler to edfend themselves not to help others. THis debate will go nowhere though. So I'lls top here.
Going to war to help others is totally justified.

Also-I generally dont hold the opinions of actors/singers in such high esteem. Wether they agree with me or not. In my opinion, they usually dont spend enough time on Earth.

Unlike all the rich politicians, right? Let's face facts, you don't respect their opinions because you don't agree with them.

I will say that Tom Sellick is an exception. I usually agree with him and he usually comports himself as a rational gentleman. You dont have to agree with him to see that.
He's an exception because you agree with him; I'm glad you could admit that. Funny how right-wingers usually justify respecting the opinions of conservative/libertarian actors/singers by arbitrary reasons (he's rational or, as I've heard Cadillac-Gage say in the case of Clint Eastwood, he's old :rolleyes: ) to hide the real reason: they are worth listening to because I agree with them.

So are all liberal actors and singers irrational? How about Tim Robbins? He seems to be a rational gentleman.

What someone says is not always what someone truly believes. Honesty on an Internet forum is a rare commodity. What some people say and what they do are sometimes two very different things. I also don't buy into the "political compass" stuff either. To easy to get the desired result, instead of the real result.
Why would Eutrusca deliberately try to get a left-wing score? Where is the interest for him in that? It's also believable. He is a social liberal and supports many government programmes.

You have got to get it out of your head that "supporting the Iraq war = über-conservative". It's not true.

Thank you, Sir. Its certainly seems worth a read. I'll check the library.
You've just written hundreds of words about how talking heads on both sides are damaging because they portray the other side as enemies, and then you go on to say that a book claiming that those excercising their right to free speech are "subverting America" is worth a read?

Am I the only one here that sees the irony in the millionaire Sir Mick Jagger being painted as the head of a band of extreme leftists somewhat incongruous?

The real difference is that the scores on every political test I have taken ( I retook the Political Compass test yesterday ), indicates that's where I fall in the rankings ... very close to the center. You don't like that, take it up with the people who create those sorts of tests.

It's definitely not helpful to call me "a bigot and a warmonger." If I called you corresponding names for those of the far left persuasion, you would immediately report me to the mods for falmming, trolling, flame-baiting, and anything else you could think of. This is the type of holier-than-thou hypocrisy which pisses me off at Hollyweird and the rest of the damned elitist, left-wing Mafia. A plague on them! Grrrrr!

Sorry, would have replied faster but my computer was acting up.

A) No one called YOU a bigot or a warmonger, I simply stated to be considered "pro"-America in these days you had to be both.

B) Your unswerving, unreachable pro-militarism is hardly a centrist idea.

C) Frankly, I wouldn't report you for anything. I don't particularly care.

D) Don't judge my "hypocrisy" until I have the right to state my own opinion.

E) There is no left-wing mafia, and that particular phrasing hardly defends your centrism.

And if we were having a beer, I wouldnt even discuss this shit.

We'd be talking about banging Sin in the baloon knot.

Right Eutrusca?
Fuckin' A! :D

[ high fives CL ] :D

Originally Posted by Stephistan
Did you read the bottom of the article that names about 10 other bands that have lyrics that are anti-right wing that are NOT hold overs from the 60's?

I posted the above. I however did not post the text below.



Dammit....why do the good artists always have to be left-wingers?

Oh well.

System of a Down's B.Y.O.B. still kicks major ass.


Ummmm

Compassion
Common Sense
A Repudiation of Selfishness and Narrow Mindedness

Please don't misquote me.

.



Unlike all the rich politicians, right? Let's face facts, you don't respect their opinions because you don't agree with them.


He's an exception because you agree with him; I'm glad you could admit that. Funny how right-wingers usually justify respecting the opinions of conservative/libertarian actors/singers by arbitrary reasons (he's rational or, as I've heard Cadillac-Gage say in the case of Clint Eastwood, he's old :rolleyes: ) to hide the real reason: they are worth listening to because I agree with them.

So are all liberal actors and singers irrational? How about Tim Robbins? He seems to be a rational gentleman.


You've just written hundreds of words about how talking heads on both sides are damaging because they portray the other side as enemies, and then you go on to say that a book claiming that those excercising their right to free speech are "subverting America" is worth a read?


Calm down, Swimmingpool. Dont put words in my mouth by trying to draw a conclusion on what I think, when I didnt say it.
I read a lot. Reading this book is somehow criminal? I read a lot of what you write too.
You're going on a rampage against what I 've said for little or no reason, finding evil where there is none.

Here it is. I knew I had heard something about this book:


http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/9601/shutupandsing2ub.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261014/104-2140598-2491927?v=glance)
While I find an lot of the songs anoying sense when has politics or beliefs not been part of some of the music scene? it seems ingraned in a portion of music throughout time

Sorry, would have replied faster but my computer was acting up.

A) No one called YOU a bigot or a warmonger, I simply stated to be considered "pro"-America in these days you had to be both.

B) Your unswerving, unreachable pro-militarism is hardly a centrist idea.

C) Frankly, I wouldn't report you for anything. I don't particularly care.

D) Don't judge my "hypocrisy" until I have the right to state my own opinion.

E) There is no left-wing mafia, and that particular phrasing hardly defends your centrism.
A) Could have ( and DID! ) fool me.

B) Any political label is based on a spectrum of politicial issues, not just one

C) Whatever

D) You hang around with dogs, you pick up fleas ... it's just that simple.

E) No left-wing Mafia. Right. That falls into the same category as the fundamentalists trying to "prove" that the world is really only about 10,000 years old and dinosaur bones were put there by God to embarass human scientists. :rolleyes:

You should run for fucking president.

thanks-I'll take it as a complement now because I'm exhausted and in a generally peaceful mood.

If its sarcastic,I'm totally missing it.

While I find an lot of the songs anoying sense when has politics or beliefs not been part of some of the music scene? it seems ingraned in a portion of music throughout time
Dude! WTF are you smoking? Make sense! LOL! :D

Dude! WTF are you smoking? Make sense! LOL! :D

In order to make sense of his post substitute the word 'since' for the word 'sense.

In order to make sense of his post substitute the word 'since' for the word 'sense.
Oh. Heh! Thanks! :D

The real difference is that the scores on every political test I have taken ( I retook the Political Compass test yesterday ), indicates that's where I fall in the rankings ... very close to the center. You don't like that, take it up with the people who create those sorts of tests.

It's definitely not helpful to call me "a bigot and a warmonger." If I called you corresponding names for those of the far left persuasion, you would immediately report me to the mods for falmming, trolling, flame-baiting, and anything else you could think of. This is the type of holier-than-thou hypocrisy which pisses me off at Hollyweird and the rest of the damned elitist, left-wing Mafia. A plague on them! Grrrrr!

I don't care what the political compass says. I have been reading your posts on this forum since you started back when I was still a mod and trying not to ban you back in your early days. You've been all over the board on "beliefs" but the one thing I can say with certainty is you're NOT a centrists. Not even close!

However, I do realize that the USA defines political leanings differently than the rest of the free world. So with that in mind, perhaps by US standards you're one. But no where outside of the US in the free world would you be seen as one.

A) Could have ( and DID! ) fool me.

B) Any political label is based on a spectrum of politicial issues, not just one

C) Whatever

D) You hang around with dogs, you pick up fleas ... it's just that simple.

E) No left-wing Mafia. Right. That falls into the same category as the fundamentalists trying to "prove" that the world is really only about 10,000 years old and dinosaur bones were put there by God to embarass human scientists. :rolleyes:


A) Well perhaps you should read what's written rather than what you want to see.

B) Point, however, you don't enhance the credibility of that image by complaining about left-wing performing artists.

C) Great response

D) An interesting phrasing, however, just because it sounds good doesn't mean it's true.

E) Do you collect conspiracy theories, or has this one just attached itself too you?

Here it is. I knew I had heard something about this book:


http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/9601/shutupandsing2ub.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261014/104-2140598-2491927?v=glance)


who? Never heard of her?

Dude! WTF are you smoking? Make sense! LOL! :D

Upward speak slower and louder for grandfather member! :p

I don't care what the political compass says. I have been reading your posts on this forum since you started back when I was still a mod and trying not to ban you back in your early days. You've been all over the board on "beliefs" but the one thing I can say with certainty is you're NOT a centrists. Not even close!

However, I do realize that the USA defines political leanings differently than the rest of the free world. So with that in mind, perhaps by US standards you're one. But no where outside of the US in the free world would you be seen as one.
You know, Stephie, I have a great deal of respect for your devotion to your family, your love for your children, and your writing ability. But you really are just as much of a leftist elitist as say, Barbara Striesand. You do your very best to impress the uninformed, nieve posters on here with a pseudo-rationality based on incorrect assumptions, and attractive but vapid verbage.

It really is pointless to engage in verbal fisticuffs on forums like this, since most of those posting made up their minds long, long ago and no amount of reasoning, facts or logic will convince them to relinquish closely-held beliefs. Accordingly, I have been really struggling with trying to repress my tendency to resort to the verbal equivlaent of "the nuclear option" when posting here.

Although their numbers are anything but impressive, I do value my friends on here and don't want to miss talking with them because of an inability to restrain myself from a "verbal nuclear strike" which would result in my being banned.

Whether I'm a "centrist" or not is a matter of almost complete indifference to me.

Reminds me of the saying, Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity.
Ach, but if no one fucked there would be no virgins :D

Although their numbers are anything but impressive, I do value my friends on here and don't want to miss talking with them because of an inability to restrain myself from a "verbal nuclear strike" which would result in my being banned.

Whether I'm a "centrist" or not is a matter of almost complete indifference to me.


Come on, Eutrusca-dont drop the "F-Bomb" in here. Its all a lot of talk.

Now might be a good time to jump into the gutter that is the "Sex Thread"...

Ach, but if no one fucked there would be no virgins :D
Good one, I like it. Did you come up with that?

who? Never heard of her?

Nor have I, but it would appear that she is a media figure who is presenting the highly political message that media figures should not present highly political messages. Make of that what you will.

Ach, but if no one fucked there would be no virgins :D

The whole artifiicial insemination thing just passed you by, didn't it?

Good one, I like it. Did you come up with that?
Yeah, I saw the "bombing for peace" quote carved into a bathroom wall at my University some time back, and the response just kind of popped into my head. I chuckled and remembered it.

You know, Stephie, I have a great deal of respect for your devotion to your family, your love for your children, and your writing ability. But you really are just as much of a leftist elitist as say, Barbara Striesand.
Yeah, Eutrusca, at least you're not one of those smug superior elitists! You merely call those who disagree with you stupid in simple terms:
Well ... looks like I'll just have to add the Rolling Stones to the trash heap that already includes dickwads like the Dixie Chicks, Barbara Striesand and others with all the intellect of a fucking brick. Pity.

Yeah, I saw the "bombing for peace" quote carved into a bathroom wall at my University some time back, and the response just kind of popped into my head. I chuckled and remembered it.
You should have carved it into the wall. That would show 'em.

You should have carved it into the wall. That would show 'em.

Who? Those shifty untrustworthy pacifists?

Who? Those shifty untrustworthy pacifists?
Yes. At least it would make those who are swayed by such shallow statements think for a few seconds.

Yes. At least it would make those who are swayed by such shallow statements think for a few seconds.

How exactly is furthering the notion that might makes right going to make the world a better place?

Huh? Since when did we have a world leader? Last time I checked almost every country had it's own leader.

Canada? Never... :D

I say "world leader" because that's what he basically is... as are Blair, Chirac, Putin... any leader of any powerful nation.

E) There is no left-wing mafia, and that particular phrasing hardly defends your centrism.

Obviously you have never been to Pennsylvania or New Jersey. Here were I live, the Democratic local government and the mafia are one in the same, right down to the whore masters.

How exactly is furthering the notion that might makes right going to make the world a better place?
It's not something that furthers the "law of nature" concept at all. It just means that sometimes warfare is inevitable if a state of peace is to be reached at the end. You know, it's most easily referenced to situations like World War II, or the American Civil War, when violence accomplished noble goals (albeit at great cost.)

The concept of pacifism says that violence never accomplished anything good, and I just disagree with that concept. While I do willingly and readily admit that "war is hell" I also am a realist.

Because right wingers have jobs... ;)

Being an artist isn't a job?


That depends...

Is it a Business or a Hobby?
It is generally accepted that people prefer to make a living doing something they like. A hobby is an activity for which you do not expect to make a profit.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99239,00.html

It's not something that furthers the "law of nature" concept at all. It just means that sometimes warfare is inevitable if a state of peace is to be reached at the end.

However, experience has shown that this can only create a temporary state of peace, whereas pacifism is an attempt to orientate humanity towards a permanent state of peace.

However, experience has shown that this can only create a temporary state of peace, whereas pacifism is an attempt to orientate humanity towards a permanent state of peace.
Or subjugation, whichever you prefer to call it.

'cause let's face it, if people become pacifist, then a Hitler type will just come along a steamroll through. No, realism is a far more preferential philosophy to silly utopianism. Chiefly because it's real.

Obviously you have never been to Pennsylvania or New Jersey. Here were I live, the Democratic local government and the mafia are one in the same, right down to the whore masters.

Seconded. New Haven, CT has a healthy mafia presence, and the Democrats haven't been out of the Mayor's office since 1954...

Pacifism is only effective when you're dealing with a civil society. The American civil rights movement was passive, and their tolerance inspired tolerance in others. But most of the people who were involved were raised in a fairly liberal society (read: classically liberal) and it was effective to appeal to their emotions. But emotional appeals don't work nearly so well with folks who are fanatics. When dealing with a martial society, such as that of the Nazis a pacific resistance would not be successful. Do you see what I'm saying?

How exactly is furthering the notion that might makes right going to make the world a better place?
I don't agree with "might makes right."

Obviously you have never been to Pennsylvania or New Jersey. Here were I live, the Democratic local government and the mafia are one in the same, right down to the whore masters.
bah, Italian-Americans. ;)

That depends...

Is it a Business or a Hobby?
Of course I meant the artists who mke money out of it (or try to).

'cause let's face it, if people become pacifist, then a Hitler type will just come along a steamroll through. No, realism is a far more preferential philosophy to silly utopianism. Chiefly because it's real.
Correct. The only way pacifism could work is if everyone in the world agreed with it. Hopefully everyone will, someday, but I think that time is far off.

Of course I meant the artists who mke money out of it (or try to).

It was a joke in the first place... recall the ;) ?

'cause let's face it, if people become pacifist, then a Hitler type will just come along a steamroll through.

You know, just maybe if you didn't have an army set up to train people in the ways of warfare (such as Hitler was), then you might just have a lesser chance of such people coming to power...

Stones Jab at 'Hypocrite' Patriots in New Song (http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/music/article.adp?id=20050810072209990023&ncid=NWS00010000000001)

How bad do you have to be to get the Rolling Stones to write an angry song about you?

Actually a better saying would be, geez how desperate have the rolling stones become? Are they that broke for cash they have to do some profiteering by playing on the current wave of anti americanism.

You know, just maybe if you didn't have an army set up to train people in the ways of warfare (such as Hitler was), then you might just have a lesser chance of such people coming to power...
A nation only has control over itself. What I'm talking about is other nations. Sure, the people of the US could *theoretically* become pacifist, but then what would happen on the world stage if, say, Canada decided upon a southern land grab?

You know, just maybe if you didn't have an army set up to train people in the ways of warfare (such as Hitler was), then you might just have a lesser chance of such people coming to power...

And you have no clue of human nature. :rolleyes:

Actually a better saying would be, geez how desperate have the rolling stones become? Are they that broke for cash they have to do some profiteering by playing on the current wave of anti americanism.

I'll bite... how are the rolling stones lyrics in this new song "anti-American"

*laughs heartily at the thought that Canada would attack the US in a land grab*

*laughs heartily at the thought that Canada would attack the US in a land grab*
When illustrating a point, one is often advised to use the most ludicrous one available because not only does it make it more entertaining, it also helps to make the point stick.

"You see, when you have two groups of Jesus, one group containing four Jesuses and the other containing nine Jesuses, and you put the groups together, how many Jesuses do you get?"

You know, just maybe if you didn't have an army set up to train people in the ways of warfare (such as Hitler was), then you might just have a lesser chance of such people coming to power...


I doubt the absence of a military would keep someone from attacking a country. I think it's important to have a military for defense but offensive violence should always be a last resort. It doesn't say much for human intelligence when something as senseless as violence is called upon before all other measures are exhausted.

And you have no clue of human nature. :rolleyes:

No, I'm of the position that it is nurture, not nature which is the primary shaping force upon individuals.

Lets just imagine that instead of serving in the Bavarian army during WWI Adolf Hitler had instead been refused entry in to the force on medical grounds (as happened when he tried to join the Austrian army), and instead had continued to eke out a living from his paintings. Would he still have risen to power?

What I want is a step down from the ongoing militaristic build-up around the world, as violence seems only to breed violence, and does not seem particularly useful when it actually comes to settling matters.

When illustrating a point, one is often advised to use the most ludicrous one available because not only does it make it more entertaining, it also helps to make the point stick.

"You see, when you have two groups of Jesus, one group containing four Jesuses and the other containing nine Jesuses, and you put the groups together, how many Jesuses do you get?"


I'm not so sure illustrating a point with silly arguments is the most effective way but to each his own. Regarding the Jesus remark I'm going to have to check your house for gas leaks.

I havent heard of it yet, but I've often said "Shut up and amuze me".

Also-I generally dont hold the opinions of actors/singers in such high esteem. Wether they agree with me or not. In my opinion, they usually dont spend enough time on Earth.

I will say that Tom Sellick is an exception. I usually agree with him and he usually comports himself as a rational gentleman. You dont have to agree with him to see that.
Tom Sellick is just a hunk. End of story:)

I like political music. I don't listen to drivel that has no purpose.

No, I'm of the position that it is nurture, not nature which is the primary shaping force upon individuals.

Lets just imagine that instead of serving in the Bavarian army during WWI Adolf Hitler had instead been refused entry in to the force on medical grounds (as happened when he tried to join the Austrian army), and instead had continued to eke out a living from his paintings. Would he still have risen to power?

What I want is a step down from the ongoing militaristic build-up around the world, as violence seems only to breed violence, and does not seem particularly useful when it actually comes to settling matters.
Please, for the love of god, leave the nature vs. nurture arguement out of this. It's been drilled into the ground on these forums more times than I can count. (I've argued this at least four times with Letila)

(albeit, psychological studies show that nature and nurture have about equal impacts in shaping an individual, albeit nature has an upper hand in some occassions.)

Sure, the people of the US could *theoretically* become pacifist, but then what would happen on the world stage if, say, Canada decided upon a southern land grab?

You seem to be missing that Canada's over-reaching problem has always been that it has too much geography and not enough history: more Lebensraum is hardly what they need.

Please, for the love of god, leave the nature vs. nurture arguement out of this.

Kind of hard to do when other people are speaking of 'human nature' as if it were a God-given thing. Take Gulf Republics to task over it, not me.

And if we were having a beer, I wouldnt even discuss this shit.

We'd be talking about banging Sin in the baloon knot.

Right Eutrusca?
HEY! Good think I decided to eyeball this thread...taking my name in vain you bastard!

I love talking politics in bars. It's my favourite pasttime! Sex, and politics. Yup.

You seem to be missing that Canada's over-reaching problem has always been that it has too much geography and not enough history: more Lebensraum is hardly what they need.
And you seem to be missing the fact that I wasn't treating that specific example as serious.

HEY! Good think I decided to eyeball this thread...taking my name in vain you bastard!

I love talking politics in bars. It's my favourite pasttime! Sex, and politics. Yup.


I used my secret Sinuhue call... telepathic,filthy lust.

And were you with us in said bar, I'd remind you politely not to talk with your mouth full.... :D

And you seem to be missing the fact that I wasn't treating that specific example as serious.

You know you have nightmares about Canada bringing an end to the world at least once a week!

And you seem to be missing the fact that I wasn't treating that specific example as serious.

I thought the fact that I was digging up that old saw about Canada having too much geography and not enough history would have been evidence enough that I was responding with suitable levity.

HEY! Good think I decided to eyeball this thread...taking my name in vain you bastard!

I love talking politics in bars. It's my favourite pasttime! Sex, and politics. Yup.


For me discussing politics in bars is like discussiong religion in bars - it ruins the whole night.

For me discussing politics in bars is like discussiong religion in bars - it ruins the whole night.
Politics gets me worked up. I get all flushed and hot when I'm worked up. Religion doesn't interest me at all.

I used my secret Sinuhue call... telepathic,filthy lust.

And were you with us in said bar, I'd remind you politely not to talk with your mouth full.... :D
You know...I've always wanted to do that, but I'm always worried I'd get caught...

You know...I've always wanted to do that, but I'm always worried I'd get caught...

I was on the giving end at a fetish ball once (drunking in the middle of a dance floor) on a girl was was on the giving end of another girl. That's all I am gunna say about this.

You know...I've always wanted to do that, but I'm always worried I'd get caught...

*carefully notating his list of "Things To Do" *

I used my secret Sinuhue call... telepathic,filthy lust.

And were you with us in said bar, I'd remind you politely not to talk with your mouth full.... :D
With both of us there, it's highly probable that wouldn't be the only thing. :)

now theres a sword fight I would pay not to see :p

For me discussing politics in bars is like discussiong religion in bars - it ruins the whole night.
Even though it pains me to say this ... I agree. Bars are for drinking, flirting, dancing, and ( if they're Karaoke ) singing. Please check your politics and your religion ( except for internal reference only ) at the door.

now theres a sword fight I would pay not to see :p
LOL! Who asked ya, dweeb! :D

Seriously - even if I agree with the persons politics I am out drinking with, I will change the subject as fast as I can. There's only one kind of Bush that I wanna talk about in that environment.

Seriously - even if I agree with the persons politics I am out drinking with, I will change the subject as fast as I can. There's only one kind of Bush that I wanna talk about in that environment.
Hahahahaha! Sumamba! M' main man! :D

I can think of at least three off the top of my head -- Green Day and Incubus. And Radiohead.
Green Day is not a leftist band in the least (someone shoud've done their homework on MSN). :rolleyes:

Billie Joe Armstrong (http://www.theadvocates.org/celebrities/billie-joe-armstrong.html) is a registered Libertarian Party member in California.

Personally though, I love the Stone's and look forward to the album (and that song).

Green Day is not a leftist band in the least (someone shoud've done their homework on MSN). :rolleyes:

Billie Joe Armstrong (http://www.theadvocates.org/celebrities/billie-joe-armstrong.html) is a registered Libertarian Party member in California.

Personally though, I love the Stone's and look forward to the album (and that song).
wtf? that wasn't even the context. It was "anti-right wing" and maybe you should listen to the lyrics of American Idiot. But whatever, I don't know why you brought that up in the first place.

Incorrect. Apparently, you posted without reading the article.

Above the noted artists, the caption clearly reads "The Stones Aren't Alone: More Lyrics That Lean to the Left", not "anti-right wing" which you mistakenly quoted with parenthesis.

I brought it up because I've heard the song ignorantly called "liberal propaganda" and "left-wing trash" enough times to know that most people can't differentiate political messages that are truly outside of a limited left-right wing spectrum.

You act as if it's offensive to clarify.

Sweet. This makes coming back from my holidays all the better. I could hardly have expected Mick and the boys to take square aim at those fatuous gits but it feels soooooooo good.

Oh, and why don't you self-styled 'libertarians' quit fooling yourselves? You're fence-sitters, and it's really weak as all get-out.

Sweet. This makes coming back from my holidays all the better. I could hardly have expected Mick and the boys to take square aim at those fatuous gits but it feels soooooooo good.


Yay Dobbs is back! :fluffle:

Oh, and why don't you self-styled 'libertarians' quit fooling yourselves? You're fence-sitters, and it's really weak as all get-out.
:p Fence-sitters? You're teh funney.

Incorrect. Apparently, you posted without reading the article.

Above the noted artists, the caption clearly reads "The Stones Aren't Alone: More Lyrics That Lean to the Left", not "anti-right wing" which you mistakenly quoted with parenthesis.

Did you read the bottom of the article that names about 10 other bands that have lyrics that are anti-right wing that are NOT hold overs from the 60's?

Now, Eichen, Achtung 45 was responding to Stephistan, who characterised those that 'Lean to the left' as 'anti-right wing', and it is fair to say that Libertarians, in as much as they proclaim themselves to be beyond the left/right divide, fit into the category of 'anti-right wing', no?

Stones Jab at 'Hypocrite' Patriots in New Song (http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/music/article.adp?id=20050810072209990023&ncid=NWS00010000000001)

How bad do you have to be to get the Rolling Stones to write an angry song about you?
So a man who has abused drugs for years and has cheated on his spouse with men is taking cheap shots at Americans. So what. He is a pathetic old man clinging on to fame. :rolleyes:

Now, Eichen, Achtung 45 was responding to Stephistan, who characterised those that 'Lean to the left' as 'anti-right wing', and it is fair to say that Libertarians, in as much as they proclaim themselves to be beyond the left/right divide, fit into the category of 'anti-right wing', no?
No, I've never heard libertarianism described as particularly anti-left or right wing. Mostly, they're seen as just two sides of the same coin.

No, I've never heard libertarianism described as particularly anti-left or right wing. Mostly, they're seen as just two sides of the same coin.

So, then it would be possible to be a left-wing or a right-wing libertarian?

It seems to me that you must either allow that or accept that libertarians, according to their own proclamations, are simultaneously both anti-left-wing and anti-right-wing.

So a man who has abused drugs for years and has cheated on his spouse with men is taking cheap shots at Americans. So what. He is a pathetic old man clinging on to fame. :rolleyes:
Are you talking about Angela Bowie's statement that she caught Mick jumping on a bed in the nude with David Bowie?
Does this really qualify as "cheating"?

Incorrect. Apparently, you posted without reading the article.
Incorrect. Apparently, you posted without reading the post I was responding to. Did you read the bottom of the article that names about 10 other bands that have lyrics that are anti-right wing that are NOT hold overs from the 60's? I still don't know why you're making such a big deal about this. American Idiot is blantantly anti-conservative regardless if Billy Joe is a liberal or a libertarian.

EDIT: Not to mention that was the 6th post and we are now at 230 something.

So a man who has abused drugs for years and has cheated on his spouse with men is taking cheap shots at Americans. So what. He is a pathetic old man clinging on to fame. :rolleyes:

At least he's an old man who's done something with his life, not a young man slamming people he doesn't know squat-all about.

Bill Shatner had an album out this year - called 'Has-Been'. Lemme paraphrase the title track for you, stinky:

"Riding on their armchairs
They dream of wealth and fame
Fear is their companion
Nintendo is their game
Never-done-Jack and Two-thumbs-Don
And Sidekick Don't-say-Dick
Will laugh at other's failures
Though they have not done shit."

and, later:

"What are you afraid of?
Failure?
So am I
Has-been implies failure
Not so
Has-been is history
Has-been was
Has-been might again"

I'll prefer to listen to the has-been than the never-was, Stinky. Thanks all the same.

So a man who has abused drugs for years and has cheated on his spouse with men is taking cheap shots at Americans. So what. He is a pathetic old man clinging on to fame. :rolleyes:

Snopes.com says that little story about Mick going into bed with Bowie is largely unsubstantiated and more something for tabloids to chew on.

I happen to like Mick Jagger and I think he has a good voice. He's not pathetic, and he happens to be one of the last good music stars. I could care less about this song, but what I won't stand for is the crap people say against him. I still like Sheryl Crow too.. even though she has similiar opinions. It doesn't bug me one bit. Some of my friends disagree with the war, but I'm not going to call them pathetic.

Sure I don't agree with him, but to call him a pathetic old man clinging on to fame is just a load of nonsense.

I still support the war, but I also support one of my favorite bands.

So, then it would be possible to be a left-wing or a right-wing libertarian?
It seems to me that you must either allow that or accept that libertarians, according to their own proclamations, are simultaneously both anti-left-wing and anti-right-wing.
1. Not just possible, there are definitely many left and right leaning libertarians.
2. Depends on who you're talking to. Since there are left and right leaning libertarians, this isn't entirely true. For libertarian purists, it is only true if you acknowledge that certain opinions are the exclusive intellectual "property" of the right and left wings on the political spectrum.
Libertarians tend to base their opinions (which one could place point by point on a left-right spectrum) on different philosophical foundations than the typical liberal or conservative, even if they both seem to agree on the surface.

Incorrect. Apparently, you posted without reading the post I was responding to. I still don't know why you're making such a big deal about this. American Idiot is blantantly anti-conservative regardless if Billy Joe is a liberal or a libertarian.

EDIT: Not to mention that was the 6th post and we are now at 230 something.
I only made one post, and now I'm responding to a flood of questions concerning it. I didn't really make a "big deal" out of anything, I just added some info that could further clarify an innacurate description of the band in the original article. I apologize if this is turning into something of a threadjack.
(You can get me back for that in one of my threads, no problem).

:p Fence-sitters? You're teh funney.
Fence-sitters, as in, all I ever hear from Libertarians is how they're better than the left or the right yet never seem to effect positive change. In my experience, self-styled 'Libertarians' are amongst the worst of the armchair quarterbacks, offering no insights as to conflict resolution or other constructive goals, but usually amongst the first to offer up self-important rants more often than not involving some form of self-aggrandisement for having the foresight to rise above such petty things as left and right wings.

That, unfortunately, isn't 'teh funney'. That's a damn shame, considering all the shit going down these days.

So, then it would be possible to be a left-wing or a right-wing libertarian?

It seems to me that you must either allow that or accept that libertarians, according to their own proclamations, are simultaneously both anti-left-wing and anti-right-wing.
That's the reason why I find most libertarians particularly arrogant...though they mean good, they claim "well we're neither liberal nor conservative, so you guys can go f*ck yourselves." Just because they're self-proclaimed libertarians, they automatically think they are superior to everyone else regardless of everyone else's views.

1. Not just possible, there are definitely many left and right leaning libertarians.

Ergo, the claim that Billie Joe Armstrong is 'left leaning' or 'anti-right wing' is perfectly acceptable.

Dobbs: I notice the left wing is the worst out there when it comes to plans... they only offer character attacks. *glares at you*

That's the reason why I find most libertarians particularly arrogant...though they mean good, they claim "well we're neither liberal nor conservative, so you guys can go f*ck yourselves." Just because they're self-proclaimed libertarians, they automatically think they are superior to everyone else regardless of everyone else's views.

Oh really? I think that liberals and conservatives who both express the "we're better then everybody else" attitude.

Fence-sitters, as in, all I ever hear from Libertarians is how they're better than the left or the right yet never seem to effect positive change. In my experience, self-styled 'Libertarians' are amongst the worst of the armchair quarterbacks, offering no insights as to conflict resolution or other constructive goals, but usually amongst the first to offer up self-important rants more often than not involving some form of self-aggrandisement for having the foresight to rise above such petty things as left and right wings.

That, unfortunately, isn't 'teh funney'. That's a damn shame, considering all the shit going down these days.
I think that you're mistaking political power with activism. I'm not sure what your "experience" with libertarians involves, but most people I've ever met aren't exactly active in the least in politics. They hardly even qualify as armchair QB's, just as apathetic citizens.

I know plenty of active libertarians, and Republicans and Democrats. I also know plenty of libertarian Democrats and Republicans.
The political party, The Libertarian Party (what the capital "L" is used to differentiate) doesn't currently have the political power to affect great, sweeping changes in current politics. I'd argue whether the Democrats have any real power right now as well. This doesn't mean one should compromise their values just to belong to a more powerful political party.

And self-important rants are the mainstay of all political persuasions here on NS, if you haven't noticed yet. :p

He is a pathetic old man clinging on to fame. :rolleyes:
Watch it with the "old" comments, young dweeb! :mad:

Dobbs: I notice the left wing is the worst out there when it comes to plans... they only offer character attacks. *glares at you*

Piffle. I'm hardly the entire left wing. Just as you're hardly the entire homosexual community. *waves away your rude glowering*

People should post their favorite activist lyrics in here.... would that be a total threadjack?

This always touched me ...


Come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you've never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
We, the people here, don't want a war.

Hey, there, mister black man, can you hear me?
I don't want your diamonds or your game
I just want to be someone known to you as me
And I will bet my life you want the same.

Come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you’ve never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
We, the people here, don’t want a war.

Seven hundred million are ya list'nin’?
Most of what you read is made of lies
But, speakin’ one to one ain't it everybody's sun
To wake to in the mornin’ when we rise?

Come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you’ve never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
We, the people here, don’t want a war.

Brother Solzhenitsyn, are you busy?
If not, won't you drop this friend a line
Tell me if the man who is plowin' up your land
Has got the war machine upon his mind?

Come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you’ve never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
We, the people here, don’t want a war.

Now, no doubt some folks enjoy doin' battle
Like presidents, prime ministers and kings
So, let's all build them shelves
Where they can fight among themselves
Leave the people be who love to sing.

Come and sing a simple song of freedom
Sing it like you’ve never sung before
Let it fill the air
Tell the people everywhere
We, the people here, don’t want a war.

I say … let it fill the air …
Tellin’ people everywhere …
We, the people, here don't want a war.

Oh really? I think that liberals and conservatives who both express the "we're better then everybody else" attitude.
How so? Most libertarians are arrogant because they don't associate themselves with neither liberals nor conservatives, so they feel that they can attack both sides. I don't know any conservatives who claim to be better than all other conservatives nor do I know any liberals who claim to be better than all other liberals, but I know self-proclaimed libertarians who claim to be better than liberals and conservatives just because they're libertarian.

That's the reason why I find most libertarians particularly arrogant...though they mean good, they claim "well we're neither liberal nor conservative, so you guys can go f*ck yourselves." Just because they're self-proclaimed libertarians, they automatically think they are superior to everyone else regardless of everyone else's views.
I can play the generalizations game too, it's easy kids!

That's the reason why I find most socialists particularly arrogant...though they mean good, they claim "well we're neither capitalists nor communists, so you guys can go f*ck yourselves." Just because they're self-proclaimed socialists, they automatically think they are superior to everyone else regardless of everyone else's views.

Wow, that was deep.

And here I thought the Rolling Stones were all dead from drug related embaressing situations...

I can play the generalizations game too, it's easy kids!

That's the reason why I find most socialists particularly arrogant...though they mean good, they claim "well we're neither capitalists nor communists, so you guys can go f*ck yourselves." Just because they're self-proclaimed socialists, they automatically think they are superior to everyone else regardless of everyone else's views.

Wow, that was deep.
Socialism is just a step away from Communism. It's not totally different like libertarian is from liberalism or conservatism. But that's a whole different argument. So I'm sorry, those are my opinions mostly formed by this very forum, and enforced by this very thread.

How so? Most libertarians are arrogant because they don't associate themselves with neither liberals nor conservatives, so they feel that they can attack both sides. I don't know any conservatives who claim to be better than all other conservatives nor do I know any liberals who claim to be better than all other liberals, but I know self-proclaimed libertarians who claim to be better than liberals and conservatives just because they're libertarian.
That made no sense. You clearly are a liberal who claims to be "better" than conservatives or libertarians.
I'm not aware of many libertarians who claim to be "better" than other libertarians.

What point were you trying so hard to make there?