President Shrub
02-08-2005, 07:52
The main reason it is immoral is because it requires lewd thoughts and lusts to facilitate it.
That's a homonculus argument.
"It's immoral, because it REQUIRES an immoral thought."
To be honest I don't know of a single man who doesn't watch porn.
Anecdotal evidence. In school, we learned that those who do or don't masturbation was about 50\50. The poll I did on pornography a while ago was around that figure.
I'm curious - for those of you who see masturbation as inherently immoral/adulturous, do you differentiate at all between masturbating while watching porn and masturbating while thinking about an absent significant other? Is there a difference from a moral standpoint?
No, because in either case, it's self-gratification.
The thing that seperates us from cows: We have souls, we are capable of rational thought, and we are aware of ourselves.
You don't know that cows don't have souls. And also, they have a limited amount of intelligence and self-awareness. All animals have these qualities to a certain extent. Dolphins' intelligence is said to be equal to that of a small child.
My only comment: If God had intended for us not to masturbate, He would've made our arms shorter!
And how would God have expected men to use a urinal?
I'm a Methodist myself, and I find nothing wrong with masturbating every once in a while. If God didn't want us to do it, why did he make it so enjoyable? What really pisses me off is how most women think it's disgusting if you tell them you do it, yet they'll turn around and jerk some guy off. That's just plain hypocritical.
The Romans found throwing Christians to the lions to be enjoyable. If God didn't want them to do it, why did he make it so enjoyable? Getting drunk and doing drugs are enjoyable as well. "Feels good," doesn't equate with "is good," unless you're an Epicurean hippie.
So sin is also healthy? Because masturbation is.
It isn't unhealthy, but it isn't healthy, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbation#Health_and_psychological_effects
"It is being increasingly recognised in mental health circles that masturbation can relieve depression and lead to a higher sense of self worth."
I have masturbated probably somewhere in the thousands. Probably two or three thousand, not sure. And well, it's never relieved my depression or led to a higher sense of self worth. Religious belief, regardless of one's religion, has been indisputably shown to benefit virtually every facet of a person's being. If a person is depressed, feels no self-worth, or has no purpose, it would be far more intelligent to encourage religious belief than to advise them to whack off. In Alcoholics Anonymous, they incorporate religion into a large part of their treatment. To my knowledge, they don't incorporate dolphin-flogging, taffy-pulling, and\or chicken-choking.
AND NOW TO ANSWER TO A BIT OF HUMOROUS TROLLING (BUT STILL, IT'S STILL TROLLING)
****************TROLLING STARTS HERE****************
Nope.
Does anyone know if it's wrong to masturbate with the bible?
Only if you aren't reading Revelation or the Gospels.
I prefer to refer to him as "Pope Sidious" or "P-Dizzle"
Ahahahaha. P-Dizzle.
I bet you marry was hot
If you mean Mary Magdeline, you are probably right. Freaking whore.
She lived in ancient Mesopotamia. You think girls shaved their legs or their armpits back then? You think they waxed their lips or eyebrows? You think they wore mini-skirts and halter tops? Only the Egyptians wore make-up and Paul spoke strongly against any kind of jewelry or fashion.
She was probably a hairy bitch in a potato sack, which is why Jesus kept turning her down.
Totally, totally, and I do mean TOTALLY, uncalled for. There are millions of people in the world who revere Mary. Why would you say that? Just to be controversial? Would you say the same sort of thing about Mohammed, or Bhudda, or any of a number of other religious icons?
Early Christians (3rd and 4th century) identified Mary Magdalene as also being the other Mary in the Bible, a prostitute. There are a fair amount of Christians today that agree. In The Passion of the Christ, Mary Magdalene was portrayed as being the same as Mary the Prostitute.
Sometimes I ponder becoming a Muslim. Because I mean, how can it truly be heaven without 70 virgins waiting for you? I'll tell you what heaven is going to be like, it's going to be Barnhill's Buffet, with hookers for waitresses.
Become a Ba'hai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai
Ba'hai's 12 Principles:
The Oneness of God
The Oneness of religion
The Oneness of mankind
Equality of women and men
Elimination of all forms of prejudice
World peace
Harmony of religion and science
Independent investigation of truth
The need for universal compulsory education
The need for a universal auxiliary language
Obedience to government and non-involvement in politics
Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty
A religion based upon Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, founded a few hundred years ago in Iran. There's no priesthood or clergy, they don't teach that you'll go to hell for not believing what they do, and anyone can believe pretty much anything they want.
What makes you think you will even have a penis?
No more hand shandies with the soap for you my friend.
Angels supposedly don't have genitals.
****************TROLLING ENDS HERE****************
Anyway, back to the original topic... I've noticed that through 17 pages of this topic, the one-line posters have invaded. And out of 17 pages, only one person, Ulterion, gave an intelligent and coherent answer. Neo Rogolia defended my statements with arguments based around assumptions that the Bible and her interpretation of it is true. While others who opposed my statements made fallacious statements or posted outright nonsense. If you don't have anything relevant or intellectual to say, don't post.
I can certainly understand this opening argument and it is very sound, and I agree with it to some extent.
Theres a profound difference here though.
You have:
(A) a single fifty year old man whos fat and lives in his moms basement and never tried to meet women for decades and whacks off to boxes and boxes of porn,
and
(B) a fifteen year old who cranks one out in the shower every now and then and goes on to lead a perfectly normal life happily married with children.
Masturbation in the boys case, I believe is a normal step in development, and a healthy outlet for sexual tension (and fluids :p)
Porn Masturbation in case A is an unfulfiling lifestyle which is the bad form of masturbation
And I agree completely, so I'll re-explain myself:
A life of renunciation in all its forms is the most moral and is what what Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, and Buddha taught. According to Judaism, all that exists is God. So, to harm anything in the world is to harm God. And when we die, we are judged according to the amount of good and bad deeds we do in life (with a good angel defending you, an evil angel prosecuting you, and God presiding as judge).
According to Jesus, to enter heaven, one must not even think evil thoughts and must give up wealth for the greater good, coming to accomplish that through faith in Jesus Christ. Although modern Christianity no longer considers it this way, Catholicism traditionally taught that God gave wealth to the righteous, and that wealth should be used for righteous acts. In early Protestants, this was true too, such as the Puritans who followed Paul's words of dressing "plainly," and held to the words of the Bible which focused on living a "spiritual, not worldly," life. Today, only the Amish and some Liberal Christians hold to this ideal, with most modern Christians believe that you just need to "believe," but not actually do anything.
In Islam, the Qu'ran says that everyone should be required to give charity to the poor. The ideal of selflessness is poignantly obvious in Buddhism.
However, it should never be enforced, because the results of that have been disastrous in Medieval Catholic Europe, Puritan colonial Massachusetts, and the modern, Islamic Middle East. In as much as I agree with one side that masturbation is immoral, I equally agree with the other side that no one's rights should be infringed upon. Trying to enforce morality would be about as effective as trying to enforce economics through Communism.
That's a homonculus argument.
"It's immoral, because it REQUIRES an immoral thought."
To be honest I don't know of a single man who doesn't watch porn.
Anecdotal evidence. In school, we learned that those who do or don't masturbation was about 50\50. The poll I did on pornography a while ago was around that figure.
I'm curious - for those of you who see masturbation as inherently immoral/adulturous, do you differentiate at all between masturbating while watching porn and masturbating while thinking about an absent significant other? Is there a difference from a moral standpoint?
No, because in either case, it's self-gratification.
The thing that seperates us from cows: We have souls, we are capable of rational thought, and we are aware of ourselves.
You don't know that cows don't have souls. And also, they have a limited amount of intelligence and self-awareness. All animals have these qualities to a certain extent. Dolphins' intelligence is said to be equal to that of a small child.
My only comment: If God had intended for us not to masturbate, He would've made our arms shorter!
And how would God have expected men to use a urinal?
I'm a Methodist myself, and I find nothing wrong with masturbating every once in a while. If God didn't want us to do it, why did he make it so enjoyable? What really pisses me off is how most women think it's disgusting if you tell them you do it, yet they'll turn around and jerk some guy off. That's just plain hypocritical.
The Romans found throwing Christians to the lions to be enjoyable. If God didn't want them to do it, why did he make it so enjoyable? Getting drunk and doing drugs are enjoyable as well. "Feels good," doesn't equate with "is good," unless you're an Epicurean hippie.
So sin is also healthy? Because masturbation is.
It isn't unhealthy, but it isn't healthy, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbation#Health_and_psychological_effects
"It is being increasingly recognised in mental health circles that masturbation can relieve depression and lead to a higher sense of self worth."
I have masturbated probably somewhere in the thousands. Probably two or three thousand, not sure. And well, it's never relieved my depression or led to a higher sense of self worth. Religious belief, regardless of one's religion, has been indisputably shown to benefit virtually every facet of a person's being. If a person is depressed, feels no self-worth, or has no purpose, it would be far more intelligent to encourage religious belief than to advise them to whack off. In Alcoholics Anonymous, they incorporate religion into a large part of their treatment. To my knowledge, they don't incorporate dolphin-flogging, taffy-pulling, and\or chicken-choking.
AND NOW TO ANSWER TO A BIT OF HUMOROUS TROLLING (BUT STILL, IT'S STILL TROLLING)
****************TROLLING STARTS HERE****************
Nope.
Does anyone know if it's wrong to masturbate with the bible?
Only if you aren't reading Revelation or the Gospels.
I prefer to refer to him as "Pope Sidious" or "P-Dizzle"
Ahahahaha. P-Dizzle.
I bet you marry was hot
If you mean Mary Magdeline, you are probably right. Freaking whore.
She lived in ancient Mesopotamia. You think girls shaved their legs or their armpits back then? You think they waxed their lips or eyebrows? You think they wore mini-skirts and halter tops? Only the Egyptians wore make-up and Paul spoke strongly against any kind of jewelry or fashion.
She was probably a hairy bitch in a potato sack, which is why Jesus kept turning her down.
Totally, totally, and I do mean TOTALLY, uncalled for. There are millions of people in the world who revere Mary. Why would you say that? Just to be controversial? Would you say the same sort of thing about Mohammed, or Bhudda, or any of a number of other religious icons?
Early Christians (3rd and 4th century) identified Mary Magdalene as also being the other Mary in the Bible, a prostitute. There are a fair amount of Christians today that agree. In The Passion of the Christ, Mary Magdalene was portrayed as being the same as Mary the Prostitute.
Sometimes I ponder becoming a Muslim. Because I mean, how can it truly be heaven without 70 virgins waiting for you? I'll tell you what heaven is going to be like, it's going to be Barnhill's Buffet, with hookers for waitresses.
Become a Ba'hai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai
Ba'hai's 12 Principles:
The Oneness of God
The Oneness of religion
The Oneness of mankind
Equality of women and men
Elimination of all forms of prejudice
World peace
Harmony of religion and science
Independent investigation of truth
The need for universal compulsory education
The need for a universal auxiliary language
Obedience to government and non-involvement in politics
Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty
A religion based upon Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, founded a few hundred years ago in Iran. There's no priesthood or clergy, they don't teach that you'll go to hell for not believing what they do, and anyone can believe pretty much anything they want.
What makes you think you will even have a penis?
No more hand shandies with the soap for you my friend.
Angels supposedly don't have genitals.
****************TROLLING ENDS HERE****************
Anyway, back to the original topic... I've noticed that through 17 pages of this topic, the one-line posters have invaded. And out of 17 pages, only one person, Ulterion, gave an intelligent and coherent answer. Neo Rogolia defended my statements with arguments based around assumptions that the Bible and her interpretation of it is true. While others who opposed my statements made fallacious statements or posted outright nonsense. If you don't have anything relevant or intellectual to say, don't post.
I can certainly understand this opening argument and it is very sound, and I agree with it to some extent.
Theres a profound difference here though.
You have:
(A) a single fifty year old man whos fat and lives in his moms basement and never tried to meet women for decades and whacks off to boxes and boxes of porn,
and
(B) a fifteen year old who cranks one out in the shower every now and then and goes on to lead a perfectly normal life happily married with children.
Masturbation in the boys case, I believe is a normal step in development, and a healthy outlet for sexual tension (and fluids :p)
Porn Masturbation in case A is an unfulfiling lifestyle which is the bad form of masturbation
And I agree completely, so I'll re-explain myself:
A life of renunciation in all its forms is the most moral and is what what Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, and Buddha taught. According to Judaism, all that exists is God. So, to harm anything in the world is to harm God. And when we die, we are judged according to the amount of good and bad deeds we do in life (with a good angel defending you, an evil angel prosecuting you, and God presiding as judge).
According to Jesus, to enter heaven, one must not even think evil thoughts and must give up wealth for the greater good, coming to accomplish that through faith in Jesus Christ. Although modern Christianity no longer considers it this way, Catholicism traditionally taught that God gave wealth to the righteous, and that wealth should be used for righteous acts. In early Protestants, this was true too, such as the Puritans who followed Paul's words of dressing "plainly," and held to the words of the Bible which focused on living a "spiritual, not worldly," life. Today, only the Amish and some Liberal Christians hold to this ideal, with most modern Christians believe that you just need to "believe," but not actually do anything.
In Islam, the Qu'ran says that everyone should be required to give charity to the poor. The ideal of selflessness is poignantly obvious in Buddhism.
However, it should never be enforced, because the results of that have been disastrous in Medieval Catholic Europe, Puritan colonial Massachusetts, and the modern, Islamic Middle East. In as much as I agree with one side that masturbation is immoral, I equally agree with the other side that no one's rights should be infringed upon. Trying to enforce morality would be about as effective as trying to enforce economics through Communism.