NationStates Jolt Archive

WTF !!! i said that in response to you quoting scripture, dont just lie man



My quotation of Christ was entirely relevant to the discussion as it deals with the issue of pornography. The criticism of the verse was irrelevant....AND I'M NOT A MAN!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

You are either a slave to God or a slave to Satan. It's a black-and-white issue, really. That which is not of God is of Satan. So, yes, I suppose you could call me a slave of God. But don't let the negative connotation of the word slave delude the meaning of this truth.
Everything's a black and white issue to you, NR. You turn to religion for solutions to everything, trying very hard never to question any of it. I'm sure it comforts you greatly. However, one day, you might find yourself in a situation where you must question everything you took for granted as "truth". Then you will start to see that life isn't so much about black and white but shades of gray.

Everything's a black and white issue to you, NR. You turn to religion for solutions to everything, trying very hard never to question any of it. I'm sure it comforts you greatly. However, one day, you might find yourself in a situation where you must question everything you took for granted as "truth". Then you will start to see that life isn't so much about black and white but shades of gray.



I've been in that situation, and I remained in it for a long time. Fortunately, my years of agnosticism are over as I now realize the wisdom of God far surpasses our own. /end thread hijacking session

That's where the thread hijacking began, and it wasn't my statement :(
No, the actual thread hijacking began wihen you decided to bring religion into the mix, lovely.

Everything's a black and white issue to you, NR. You turn to religion for solutions to everything, trying very hard never to question any of it. I'm sure it comforts you greatly. However, one day, you might find yourself in a situation where you must question everything you took for granted as "truth". Then you will start to see that life isn't so much about black and white but shades of gray.
wild applause...
but aren't some shades darker than others?

My quotation of Christ was entirely relevant to the discussion as it deals with the issue of pornography. The criticism of the verse was irrelevant....AND I'M NOT A MAN!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Chilllllllllllllllllllllllll someone has some built up gender related anger here

No, the actual thread hijacking began wihen you decided to bring religion into the mix, lovely.



If this thread is calling for our opinions on the comparison of pornography to rape and my opinion involves Christ's take on the issue, would it not logically follow that I would cite the source of my opinion?

Chilllllllllllllllllllllllll someone has some built up gender related anger here




Sorry....it was just that I've had to correct people on that issue many many times...so many, that I decided to put my gender in my location info....and people STILL called me a guy! One can only take so much of it before she goes insane :(

wild applause...
but aren't some shades darker than others?
Shh... We have to quit threadjacking... We can start a seperate discussion on this...

If this thread is calling for our opinions on the comparison of pornography to rape and my opinion involves Christ's take on the issue, would it not logically follow that I would cite the source of my opinion?
she does have a point....
kudos, girl :D

If this thread is calling for our opinions on the comparison of pornography to rape and my opinion involves Christ's take on the issue, would it not logically follow that I would cite the source of my opinion?

That is logical except for a couple of things first off quoting scripture always is a good way to open up a whole new can o worms and two, jus look at WHAT you quoted, its actually quite funny

Shh... We have to quit threadjacking... We can start a seperate discussion on this...
okay...
by the way, please say "be quiet" next time...

My quotation of Christ was entirely relevant to the discussion as it deals with the issue of pornography. The criticism of the verse was irrelevant....AND I'M NOT A MAN!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Depending on whether you are realistic or not, almost every disscussion is, at some depth or other, a religious discussion.

So....back on topic.....some argue the point that paedophilic pornography always involves unconsenting children, therefore it could be equated with rape.

Back to basics people...

I do not think pornography is rape, do you?

Back to basics people...

I do not think pornography is rape, do you?


not unless the subjects are being forced to do it as said in about the second post on this thread. end of discussion :p

okay...
by the way, please say "be quiet" next time...
You would rather me give you a direct order rather than a harmless onomatopoeia?

So....back on topic.....some argue the point that paedophilic pornography always involves unconsenting children, therefore it could be equated with rape.

Good point, children by law are not legal and so even if it isnt "rape" by the traditional term its definately not a good kind of porn

So....back on topic.....some argue the point that paedophilic pornography always involves unconsenting children, therefore it could be equated with rape.While it is illegal, and the porn itself is rape, fantasizing about it still doesn't mean you're going to do it. As I said before, Thought != Action. Just because you fantasize about doing it, doesn't mean you're actually going to do it.

So....back on topic.....some argue the point that paedophilic pornography always involves unconsenting children, therefore it could be equated with rape.
There is no such thing as "pedophiliac pornogrophy." That sort of thing is in a category all by itself. If, God forbid, I ever get ahold of any of the sick bastards who either make or even watch that crap, just start a fund for my defense lawyers.

I don't think porn is rape. Straightforward enough.

You would rather me give you a direct order rather than an onomatopoeia?
yes, "shhh" is hard on the ears; it grates. "please be quiet" would be even better"

But in the case that theres not much difference between jacking-off and actually doing the deed, you can't argue with that surely?

Alright, let me tell you something. You watch a horror film. Someone get's stabbed. You imagine yourself doing the stabbing, and at the same time are stabbing a doll, as a joke. You just commited murder under your professor's ideology.

Hmm, places where porn is less restricted have lower incidences of rape while places where religious oppression is maximized and violence glorified have higher rates of rape.....

Maybe that prof needs to learn a bit about correlation.

yes, "shhh" is hard on the ears; it grates. "please be quiet" would be even better"



There are the nice, soft "shhh"'s and the harsh, forceful "Shhhh!!!!"'s.

i cant even believe this question is still being debated. lol

Doesnt everyone agree that porn != rape unless teh subjects are being forced?

Alright, let me tell you something. You watch a horror film. Someone get's stabbed. You imagine yourself doing the stabbing, and at the same time are stabbing a doll, as a joke. You just commited murder under your professor's ideology.

If I saw someone stabbing a doll while they were watching a horror film, I would be deeply disturbed by that. It is an indicator of deep problems. I have seen people who, even in jest, commited violent actions that revealed deeper root causes.

But I can't conclusively extend that analogy to pornography, however.

There are the nice, soft "shhh"'s and the harsh, forceful "Shhhh!!!!"'s.
regardless, please be more obtuse.

Now that is a stretch. That's like saying everytime a man has a sexual fantasy about some woman he is committing rape. There's a big difference between action and fantasy, so that argument doesn't work.

I wonder what his stance is on lesbian porn?
For that matter what is his stand on manga style cartoon porn?

I've just finished my first year of a Creative writing and Media Studies degree, and one of my lecturers is really HOT on this subject. He (yes, he, not she) is a feminist, and seriously DOES believe that pornography is just the same as rape. Anyway, this is a subject that I feel (as a 19 year-oldmale) I should be interested in, (plus, the amount he was talking about it this year, I think it's gonna be part of the "test" as it were, next year).... so here's the question....what do you believe?

Poll coming (hehehe)

Not unless the people involved are forced into it, no.

Your lecturer is an idiot to even compare the two. Rape is Non-Consentual. Porn, is consentual, and all parties are normally PAID for it. I never met any who was payed to be raped, or pay to rape.

For that matter what is his stand on manga style cartoon porn?Are the cartoons coerced? Are they in their right minds?
Cartoon porn freaks me out. :eek:

Are the cartoons coerced? Are they in their right minds?
Cartoon porn freaks me out. :eek:
LOL! Why is that??

Are the cartoons coerced? Are they in their right minds?
Cartoon porn freaks me out. :eek:
I second the freakedness.

Eutrusca: It seems absolutely disgusting that such an innocent form of entertainment intended for children could be warped to become porn... and that it would be as popular as it is.

LOL! Why is that??



He probably has a twin brother like I do who constantly has his sister discover bad sites in his history....NEVER click anything with the word "hentai" in it....ever..... :(

He probably has a twin brother like I do who constantly has his sister discover bad sites in his history....NEVER click anything with the word "hentai" in it....ever..... :(
If it makes you feel any better, sounds like your brother's an amateur... if you're sharing a computer with the rest of your family and you visit a site you don't want them to know you've visited, you should clear all cookies, cache, saved form information, etc. on that computer.

If it makes you feel any better, sounds like your brother's an amateur... if you're sharing a computer with the rest of your family and you visit a site you don't want them to know you've visited, you should clear all cookies, cache, saved form information, etc. on that computer.



He does now because I told on him for it when he and I were in an argument once :D

It seems absolutely disgusting that such an innocent form of entertainment intended for children could be warped to become porn... and that it would be as popular as it is.It's not based on cartoons, it's based on anime, which is mostly NOT for kids, as it often contains a complex story, loads of violence, and usually some nudity or sexual content (but it almost never contains actual sex).

It's not based on cartoons, it's based on anime, which is mostly NOT for kids, as it often contains a complex story, loads of violence, and usually some nudity or sexual content (but it almost never contains actual sex).



Anime is a form of cartoon. Also, Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! are certainly for kids, and are they not anime?

It's not based on cartoons, it's based on anime, which is mostly NOT for kids, as it often contains a complex story, loads of violence, and usually some nudity or sexual content (but it almost never contains actual sex).
Oxwana used the words "cartoon porn" rather than the words "anime porn". I was replying to her.

Anime is a form of cartoon. Also, Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! are certainly for kids, and are they not anime?No, anime and cartoons are both animated, however other than that they're completely different. And like I said, mostly not for kids. Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! are a only few of the thousands that are made that are aired on north american television. Have you ever seen, or even heard of Neon Genesis Evangelion? Look it up some time.

Oxwana used the words "cartoon porn" rather than the words "anime porn". I was replying to her.Oh, well then in that case, I agree with you completely, and I apologize.

Anime is a form of cartoon. Also, Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! are certainly for kids, and are they not anime?
Some anime is intended for kids, and some isn't, it's really not a complicated concept.

In the west, a lot of people seem to believe that cartoons are somehow by definition intended for children, but that's just not the case. Ignoring the whole pornography thing for a second, you can find anime geared to almost any age group - Pokemon is aimed at young children and Dragon Ball Z is likely aimed primarily at adolescents, but something like Grave of the Fireflies is decidedly aimed at adults despite being anime.

No, anime and cartoons are both animated, however other than that they're completely different. And like I said, mostly not for kids. Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! are a only few of the thousands that are made that are aired on north american television. Have you ever seen, or even heard of Neon Genesis Evangelion? Look it up some time.

Oh, well then in that case, I agree with you completely, and I apologize.
No problem.

Some anime is intended for kids, and some isn't, it's really not a complicated concept.

In the west, a lot of people seem to believe that cartoons are somehow by definition intended for children, but that's just not the case. Ignoring the whole pornography thing for a second, you can find anime geared to almost any age group - Pokemon is aimed at young children and Dragon Ball Z is likely aimed primarily at adolescents, but something like Grave of the Fireflies is decidedly aimed at adults despite being anime.



*has no clue what Grave of the Fireflies is*

My version of anime is whatever comes on WB or Cartoon Network :D

*has no clue what Grave of the Fireflies is*

My version of anime is whatever comes on WB or Cartoon Network :D
heh, yeah, pretty much all the stuff on WB or cartoon network is for kids. Most anime is for kids too, but there is a small but significant fraction geared towards adults.

If you ever get a chance, I would recommend Grave of the Fireflies, it's a fantastic movie about world war II in Japan. It has absolutely beautiful animation and can be quite moving at times. :)

EDIT: Not that I have anything against kids cartoons - I still watch them if I get the chance :p

What the fuck? Porno actresses get paid a good deal of money to do what they do, and most of it is fake. They're able to quit their job, if they want to, so long as they're not under contract.

Actually, the porn industry can be very easy to get into and very difficult to get out of, especially in America; as with things like peer pressure, it can be very easy, especially as a new actress, to be forced into doing things you do not want to, often being given the impression that you may otherwise displease your employer, or you are given the impression that this is the sort of stuff that everyone does. So the porno industry can be very hard, and very dangerous too; again, especially in America, foregoing condoms is encouraged, and there has been quite a serious HIV epidemic in the past. 'Course, you catch that, you can quit your job, but your life is messed up thereafter...

Having said that, porn being on the same level as rape? It is an utterly preposterous notion. Unless the porn stars have been kidnapped and forced to work against their will (which even so makes it rape on film more than it makes it porn), then pornography is *entirely* different. It is derogatory, maybe, but it is far from being an abusive, emotionally scarring sexual assault.

Bloody feminists...

*has no clue what Grave of the Fireflies is*

My version of anime is whatever comes on WB or Cartoon Network :D


"Grave of the fireflies" (http://www.wingsee.com/ghibli/fireflies/) is a beautiful, incredibly sad story about two orphans trying to survive in Japan towards the end of WWII. If you ever have a chance to see it, do.
I like anime on the whole, and that one has to be the best I ever saw.

That aside, I personally think Hentai is just ridiculously stupid.
I like porn, well, some of it. And I really fail to see any connection between regular porn and rape. I know that there are most likely some extreme and subcultural movies out there that cross the line, but regarding mainstream... the actors consent and get paid, nobody is forced to watch it, where would the connection to rape be?

Or is that one of those "porn is made for a male audience, therefore women are exploited, so it has to be rape"-things?

I think porn is closer to prostitution than rape, if anything.

Cartoon porn isn't closer to either, although i've never indulged in that, so I wouldn't really know. I don't do thinking before 11:30.

Eutrusca: It seems absolutely disgusting that such an innocent form of entertainment intended for children could be warped to become porn... and that it would be as popular as it is.

It seems amazing anyone would consider an entire form of expression to be aimed solely at children when it is clearly not. What's so special about a drawing? There's tons of pornographic drawings hung up in art galleries around the world depicting sex and nudity, so where's the difference?

Once you step away from the ridiculous attitude of Walt Disney that 'because it's drawn it's for kids',' you realise nobody 'warped' anything; it's a purely Western attitude that cartoons are only for kids, and thankfully it's being left behind now so we can enjoy more stuff like Ghost in the Shell, Orguss 02 and Akira.

Actually, the porn industry can be very easy to get into and very difficult to get out of, especially in America; as with things like peer pressure, it can be very easy, especially as a new actress, to be forced into doing things you do not want to, often being given the impression that you may otherwise displease your employer, or you are given the impression that this is the sort of stuff that everyone does. So the porno industry can be very hard, and very dangerous too; again, especially in America, foregoing condoms is encouraged, and there has been quite a serious HIV epidemic in the past. 'Course, you catch that, you can quit your job, but your life is messed up thereafter...

Having said that, porn being on the same level as rape? It is an utterly preposterous notion. Unless the porn stars have been kidnapped and forced to work against their will (which even so makes it rape on film more than it makes it porn), then pornography is *entirely* different. It is derogatory, maybe, but it is far from being an abusive, emotionally scarring sexual assault.

Bloody feminists...
Are you an ex-pornstar?

Been watchin.....BUMP

Well to be honest, it probably has something to do with chemistry and biology, but on the other hand it means you've found the perfect woman/mate for you and that makes love. love=sex. sex does not unfortunately mean love though, it should but people don't see it like i do and i hate it..... sex without love, in my point of view, is rape. I'm sure you must've read my earlier posts? I've already said this.
That was certainly a U-turn! So it is your view we are discussing after all? Well, at least you've found out that you're pretty alone with your view!

Actually, the porn industry can be very easy to get into and very difficult to get out of, especially in America; as with things like peer pressure, it can be very easy, especially as a new actress, to be forced into doing things you do not want to, often being given the impression that you may otherwise displease your employer, or you are given the impression that this is the sort of stuff that everyone does. So the porno industry can be very hard, and very dangerous too; again, especially in America, foregoing condoms is encouraged, and there has been quite a serious HIV epidemic in the past. 'Course, you catch that, you can quit your job, but your life is messed up thereafter...

Having said that, porn being on the same level as rape? It is an utterly preposterous notion. Unless the porn stars have been kidnapped and forced to work against their will (which even so makes it rape on film more than it makes it porn), then pornography is *entirely* different. It is derogatory, maybe, but it is far from being an abusive, emotionally scarring sexual assault.

Bloody feminists...

It all depends on your take on the subject though.... people claim to have been forced into smoking/drinking by peer pressure, and the courts are lenient on underage drinking because of peer pressure, and the affect it has on you....so if you go into porn because of peer pressure then you are being forced and you are therefore being raped.

That was certainly a U-turn! So it is your view we are discussing after all? Well, at least you've found out that you're pretty alone with your view!

I never said I didn't agree with my lecturer...actually I kind of did earlier on, but I meant to say I'm not sure whether I did or not.....I do now though, simply from reading all I've seen here today.

Actually, the porn industry can be very easy to get into and very difficult to get out of, especially in America; as with things like peer pressure, it can be very easy, especially as a new actress, to be forced into doing things you do not want to, often being given the impression that you may otherwise displease your employer, or you are given the impression that this is the sort of stuff that everyone does. So the porno industry can be very hard, and very dangerous too; again, especially in America, foregoing condoms is encouraged, and there has been quite a serious HIV epidemic in the past. 'Course, you catch that, you can quit your job, but your life is messed up thereafter...

Having said that, porn being on the same level as rape? It is an utterly preposterous notion. Unless the porn stars have been kidnapped and forced to work against their will (which even so makes it rape on film more than it makes it porn), then pornography is *entirely* different. It is derogatory, maybe, but it is far from being an abusive, emotionally scarring sexual assault.

Bloody feminists...

Actually, I think "bloody communists" would be more appropriate here.

The society we live in today requires all of us to earn money to survive. In order to earn money, most of us have to do things they normally wouldn't do if they wouldn't get money for it. Therefore, we collectively sell ourselves and our morality. This is of course very extreme in the case of the porno actor/actress.

When one person rapes another, he forces that person to do something against their morality. Our capitalistic society demands the same thing of all of us. The reasons that some people choose to do porn might be that it pays so much better than waitressing. What would you do if you had five kids to feed and worked as a waitress for minimum wage while you could earn 100 times more than that next door taking your clothes off? It is the system that forces these actors and actresses into the porn industry. And by watching porn, you are cultivating that system.

I think we all need to realize this when we watch porn and also think about other things this way. Is the cool new shoe I want to buy manufactured in a way that I find morally wrong? We live in a very complex society today and just ignoring the system can only make things worse for all of us.

Actually, I think "bloody communists" would be more appropriate here.

The society we live in today requires all of us to earn money to survive. In order to earn money, most of us have to do things they normally wouldn't do if they wouldn't get money for it. Therefore, we collectively sell ourselves and our morality. This is of course very extreme in the case of the porno actor/actress.

When one person rapes another, he forces that person to do something against their morality. Our capitalistic society demands the same thing of all of us. The reasons that some people choose to do porn might be that it pays so much better than waitressing. What would you do if you had five kids to feed and worked as a waitress for minimum wage while you could earn 100 times more than that next door taking your clothes off? It is the system that forces these actors and actresses into the porn industry. And by watching porn, you are cultivating that system.

I think we all need to realize this when we watch porn and also think about other things this way. Is the cool new shoe I want to buy manufactured in a way that I find morally wrong? We live in a very complex society today and just ignoring the system can only make things worse for all of us.

Actually I think "bloody capitalists" would be more appropriate here.....unless you would like to change all of what you said above?

Originally Posted by Of the underpants
Well to be honest, it probably has something to do with chemistry and biology, but on the other hand it means you've found the perfect woman/mate for you and that makes love. love=sex. sex does not unfortunately mean love though, it should but people don't see it like i do and i hate it..... sex without love, in my point of view, is rape. I'm sure you must've read my earlier posts? I've already said this.

Sex without love is rape?

Just how did you come to that conclusion? Last time I looked, the definition of rape was "sex without consent".
I sure had sex in my life without having been in love, but that doesn't mean I've been raped, nor that I raped somebody :confused:

Actually I think "bloody capitalists" would be more appropriate here.....unless you would like to change all of what you said above?
No, I meant it instead of "Bloody feminists", which was directed at the ones who think porn is rape. The writer of that post obviously is the bloody capitalist. :D

No, I meant it instead of "Bloody feminists", which was directed at the ones who think porn is rape.

But you were saying that people were forced into porn by society, ie a capitalist society....oh, hang on.....i think i'm getting it.....you were supporting we who believe that porn is rape.....because you were saying that pornstars are forced into it by a capitalist society - and feminists in this case are good, and so are communists, because they are anti-porn-society because they don't force people into becoming porn stars?

Sex without love is rape?

Just how did you come to that conclusion? Last time I looked, the definition of rape was "sex without consent".
I sure had sex in my life without having been in love, but that doesn't mean I've been raped, nor that I raped somebody :confused:

It does in my mind. sorry. You're a rapist in my mind.

But you were saying that people were forced into porn by society, ie a capitalist society....oh, hang on.....i think i'm getting it.....you were supporting we who believe that porn is rape.....because you were saying that pornstars are forced into it by a capitalist society - and feminists in this case are good, and so are communists, because they are anti-porn-society because they don't force people into becoming porn stars?
:)

:)

I take it that, that meant "ding ding ding, slowest person of the year award goes to Of The Underpants!! Step up and claim your prize!!"?

It all depends on your take on the subject though.... people claim to have been forced into smoking/drinking by peer pressure, and the courts are lenient on underage drinking because of peer pressure, and the affect it has on you....so if you go into porn because of peer pressure then you are being forced and you are therefore being raped.
a) Being forced into smoking/drinking by peer pressure is a weak excuse in my opinion. I mean how lame does "I did not want to smoke, Bill made me do it" sound? Kids smoke and drink because they think it is cool and makes them look cool or sophisticated or to impress others or be accepted by others. But the last is not really peer pressure, because they themselves want to belong to the group, noone forces them and they'd be better off outside such a group. OK, perhaps a little peer pressure ... but ...
b) getting into the porn industry because of peer pressure? That is hardly likely, is it?

That getting out of the porn industry and/or prostitution is not always easy, is something completely different and has got nothing to do with peer pressure either.

Believe it or not, but there are an awful lot of women and men who get into the porn industry absolutely voluntary!

On a different note: has anyone (apart from yourself) actually spoken in favour of this assumption. After all 13 people voted in favour of it?

It does in my mind. sorry. You're a rapist in my mind.

*lol Now, that's a first to be sure. I guess that's the only way a girl like me can actually rape a man nearly twice her size :D

I take it that, that meant "ding ding ding, slowest person of the year award goes to Of The Underpants!! Step up and claim your prize!!"?
Yeah, but in a sweet way. :)

On a different note: has anyone (apart from yourself) actually spoken in favour of this assumption. After all 13 people voted in favour of it?

Funnily enough I posted a similar question a few pages back but noone stepped up to take the stand. Ie.....no one it's getting rather annoyingly one-sided, though all the argument you people use makes me more sure my lecturer is right....it's 14 now.

Cabra, you're freaking me out, how do u know I'm twice your size?

Yeah, but in a sweet way. :)

Sweet? how so? Lol.

Cabra, you're freaking me out, how do u know I'm twice your size?

Who says I'd want to "rape" you anyway?

Not as long as the people involve consent and get paid. Prostitution, maybe, but not rape.

legal prostitution

a) Being forced into smoking/drinking by peer pressure is a weak excuse in my opinion. I mean how lame does "I did not want to smoke, Bill made me do it" sound? Kids smoke and drink because they think it is cool and makes them look cool or sophisticated or to impress others or be accepted by others. But the last is not really peer pressure, because they themselves want to belong to the group, noone forces them and they'd be better off outside such a group. OK, perhaps a little peer pressure ... but ...
b) getting into the porn industry because of peer pressure? That is hardly likely, is it?

That getting out of the porn industry and/or prostitution is not always easy, is something completely different and has got nothing to do with peer pressure either.

Believe it or not, but there are an awful lot of women and men who get into the porn industry absolutely voluntary!

On a different note: has anyone (apart from yourself) actually spoken in favour of this assumption. After all 13 people voted in favour of it?
I have, although I voted opposed to it. I'm trying to defend the other side because I believe they do have a point.

What is the definition of a voluntary act? Do you have a job because you want to or because you need the money? And in choosing your job, did you choose it because you loved it or because it payed good or you couldn't get anything better?

Society puts a lot of pressure on everyone of us, more than we realise it. It makes us ashamed of our bodies, ashamed of our sexuality and packing groceries (spelling?) at the local supermarket.

It is far more complex than I think you realise. Capitalism sucks in this regard.

legal prostitution

Not in a lot of cases....a lot of porn is illeagal, therfore, so is the prostitution.

legal prostitution

Illegal prostitution is a form of rape. That's why it is illegal...

Sweet? how so? Lol.
Kind of like how you would point to someones glasses on top of their head while they're frantically looking for them, with a big smile.

Who says I'd want to "rape" you anyway?

I never said you did....but you suggested it....and besides, like I said rape = sex without love in my opinion.

I never said you did....but you suggested it....and besides, like I said rape = sex without love in my opinion.
Now, when you think all sex without love is rape, then you're saying that the only valid reason to consent into having sex is to be in love. While that may be true for you, can you imagine this is not necasserily so for a lot of people?

Illegal prostitution is a form of rape. That's why it is illegal...

But illeagal prostitution is often done "willingly" like girls who stand on street corners,, or work in brothels (which in the uk at least is illeagal).

Now, when you think all sex without love is rape, then you're saying that the only valid reason to consent into having sex is to be in love. While that may be true for you, can you imagine this is not necasserily so for a lot of people?

Yes, I suppose I can....but I still think that it is in my case rape. If I had sex with someone I didn't love, or who didn't love me I would think I am raping her, or that she is raping me.

But illeagal prostitution is often done "willingly" like girls who stand on street corners,, or work in brothels (which in the uk at least is illeagal).

Sorry, I keep forgetting that a number of counrties still don't have legal prostitution. To be honest, I don't even know about the legislation here in Ireland, but I know about Germany, where prostitution is legal and regarded as a normal profession by the state. There's still illegal prostitution, and that would be girls who are forced to prostitute themselves.

Yes, I suppose I can....but I still think that it is in my case rape. If I had sex with someone I didn't love, or who didn't love me I would think I am raping her, or that she is raping me.
Yes, of course, you are entitled to feel that way. But you can't go around applying that same logic to all human beings. Rape is still a crime, consenting sex isn't.

I never said you did....but you suggested it....and besides, like I said rape = sex without love in my opinion.

I did not. I said that if I apply your ideas to my past, I raped a number of men twice my size... and was raped a few times myself. However, I don't feel like that (and believe me, I know what rape feels like), and I'm sure none of the men feel that way either.

It does in my mind. sorry. You're a rapist in my mind.
VERY FUNNY. i have had sex with a lot of people i didnt love,at there request. I dont feel like a victom, and dont think any of these people raped me. I may be a male slut but not a rape victum. i liked them, cared a lot for them,sometimes, but LOVE? nah. and if i raped them why did they seem so pleased? And come back again for seconds?

I never said I didn't agree with my lecturer...actually I kind of did earlier on, but I meant to say I'm not sure whether I did or not.....I do now though, simply from reading all I've seen here today.

so 94.66% choosing the NO option turned you towards the YES?

BTW : congrats on the award.

What is the definition of a voluntary act? Do you have a job because you want to or because you need the money? And in choosing your job, did you choose it because you loved it or because it payed good or you couldn't get anything better?

I am lucky in that I have a job (because I need the money) which I also like. I originally chose it because I enjoyed working in that field (didn't get that much money).

However, there are always options. Example: Two girls, early twenties. Both quite heavily in debt, both at university.

Girl A: Originally works as a bona fide escort, then decides to take the "shortcut" and gets into prostitution. Does not like it much at first, later hates it. Manages to pay off her overdraft shortly after her university career, stops working as a prostitute. Takes a year out to travel the world and recover, now has normal job.
Girl B: Works at several lousy places to pay off her overdraft. Finishes uni still in debt. Has been working at a normal job ever since and managed to bay back her debts after a few years.

Which was the right option? Both did what they did voluntarily. I once had this discussion with Girl A about whether she felt abused by the clients. She said she did not. She hated it, but always said it was her decision, noone had forced her. She had reasons for wanting to pay back the money quickly and had decided this was the way to go. Would she do it again, I asked her. She said the price she paid was very high, but she would not rule out that she would do so again, even though she now knows, what it entails.

With the exception of upskirt/hidden camera porn, it involves consenting partners. I would accept the comparision to prostitution or stripping, but not rape.

Be really nice to your friends and family.
You never know when you are going to need them to empty your
bedpan.


Elrik of Melnibone

Now, let's get our definitions sorted out, shall we?

The Oxford English Dictionary (http://askoxford.com) defines rape as follows:


rape

• verb (of a man) force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him against their will.
• noun an act or the crime of raping someone.

No mention of love at all.
I think you do have a valid point there saying that sex without love is something vastly different from sex with love. You may associate negative feelings to sex without love, few people could contrdict you, as this is a very subjective perception.
However, to call it "rape" is just the wrong choice of word...

I am lucky in that I have a job (because I need the money) which I also like. I originally chose it because I enjoyed working in that field (didn't get that much money).

However, there are always options. Example: Two girls, early twenties. Both quite heavily in debt, both at university.

Girl A: Originally works as a bona fide escort, then decides to take the "shortcut" and gets into prostitution. Does not like it much at first, later hates it. Manages to pay off her overdraft shortly after her university career, stops working as a prostitute. Takes a year out to travel the world and recover, now has normal job.
Girl B: Works at several lousy places to pay off her overdraft. Finishes uni still in debt. Has been working at a normal job ever since and managed to bay back her debts after a few years.

Which was the right option? Both did what they did voluntarily. I once had this discussion with Girl A about whether she felt abused by the clients. She said she did not. She hated it, but always said it was her decision, noone had forced her. She had reasons for wanting to pay back the money quickly and had decided this was the way to go. Would she do it again, I asked her. She said the price she paid was very high, but she would not rule out that she would do so again, even though she now knows, what it entails.
Of course, I'm not implying that there aren't different ways to go about it. However, the system we have allows people to have sex for the wrong reasons.

Sex should be, and I think we can all agree on this one, something that we only do because we want to do it and enjoy it. If there wouldn't be the option of having sex for money, very few people would stand on a street corner waiting for anonymous people to come pick them up and have sex with them, maybe a dozen times per night. And that's where the system and rape allegations kick in.

The system allows this to go on, and people who enjoy it paid Girl A to do things she didn't like. The real question should be: would she do it again if she didn't need the money to pay off her debt? Would she do it, if all she could get out of it was the pleasure that should come with sex?

Yes, I suppose I can....but I still think that it is in my case rape. If I had sex with someone I didn't love, or who didn't love me I would think I am raping her, or that she is raping me.

Now you're making your own definitions up so I dont see how the debate can continue. Rape=sex without consent put simply, not sex without love.

Of course, I'm not implying that there aren't different ways to go about it. However, the system we have allows people to have sex for the wrong reasons.

Sex should be, and I think we can all agree on this one, something that we only do because we want to do it and enjoy it. If there wouldn't be the option of having sex for money, very few people would stand on a street corner waiting for anonymous people to come pick them up and have sex with them, maybe a dozen times per night. And that's where the system and rape allegations kick in.

The system allows this to go on, and people who enjoy it paid Girl A to do things she didn't like. The real question should be: would she do it again if she didn't need the money to pay off her debt? Would she do it, if all she could get out of it was the pleasure that should come with sex?
So, working when you're poor is some kind of gross violation of your civil liberties?

What makes porn, as a job, any different from working at the local coffeshop?

If there wouldn't be the option of having sex for money, very few people would stand on a street corner waiting for anonymous people to come pick them up and have sex with them, maybe a dozen times per night.

I'D BE THERE! :D

georgegad is inviteing the entire forum back to his house for 'coffee'

Oh no, feminists. I hate feminists. They totally don't understand the men and women relations.


i laugh at them for thinking Porn is the same as rape, obviously they don't know what rape is then. Rape is the most horible crime you can think of and they want too accosiacte it with one of the biggest businesses in the world.

i don't agree with porn though, its a disgrace for humanity. Its always woman too, mostly then. If it involves around men its usually gay. The men and women are paid too have sex with eachother or themselves so other people(mostly men) can look at them while doing it... something wrong with that in my opinion.

So, working when you're poor is some kind of gross violation of your civil liberties?

What makes porn, as a job, any different from working at the local coffeshop?
It depends on your personal moral system (correct my English if I'm wrong here). Working at the local coffee shop does not (usually) make you do anything against your own morality.

Working as a prostitute usually does go against your personal moral system. Sexual morals are very personal and highly valued. That's why rape is a crime and forcing someone to make coffee isn't (I think).

But if it would go against your morals to work in the local coffeeshop, because the way the coffee is produced is unfair to the farmers in third world countries for example, then I think you shouldn't work in the local coffeshop. I myself quit a job once because the store started to sell slimfast, which to me is equal to killing people.

Further more, I think the entire system of money is wrong in the way we have it now. How free are we really to do what we want? How can you live in this world, when you for instance feel that the majority of goods sold in the stores are produced in an unfair way? Truth is there is no choice, and that bugs me. A lot.

I'D BE THERE! :D

georgegad is inviteing the entire forum back to his house for 'coffee'
Then I'll join you! ;)

Truth is, I have nothing against a free sexual society, it's the capitalist way to stimulate people to have sex that bugs me.

i don't agree with porn though, its a disgrace for humanity. Its always woman too, mostly then. If it involves around men its usually gay. The men and women are paid too have sex with eachother or themselves so other people(mostly men) can look at them while doing it... something wrong with that in my opinion.
Not trying to steriotype, but women seem to prefer the Mills And Boon type porn. Its more intelectuall. allthough most lesbians i know read playboy and such. I think the female just body translates better on camera and the male body is more attractive in print.


I know mine is more attractive when i speak about it than when you see it ;)

The real question should be: would she do it again if she didn't need the money to pay off her debt? Would she do it, if all she could get out of it was the pleasure that should come with sex?
No she would not do it again, and she didn't after she had the money she needed.

But that is not the point. The point is she did it voluntarily. So it is not rape. Getting into the porn industry is, in most cases, done voluntarily, i.e. no rape either. Rape always has the element of force against the actual wishes of the person being raped, and physical assault.

Anyone who puts porn and rape on an equal base does, IMHO, belittle the attrocity that is rape.

Then I'll join you! ;)

Truth is, I have nothing against a free sexual society, it's the capitalist way to stimulate people to have sex that bugs me.

True. Free sex is one thing, but how can you put a price on something that personal

True. Free sex is one thing, but how can you put a price on something that personal
My point exactly.

It depends on your personal moral system (correct my English if I'm wrong here). Working at the local coffee shop does not (usually) make you do anything against your own morality.

Working as a prostitute usually does go against your personal moral system. Sexual morals are very personal and highly valued. That's why rape is a crime and forcing someone to make coffee isn't (I think).

But if it would go against your morals to work in the local coffeeshop, because the way the coffee is produced is unfair to the farmers in third world countries for example, then I think you shouldn't work in the local coffeshop. I myself quit a job once because the store started to sell slimfast, which to me is equal to killing people.

Further more, I think the entire system of money is wrong in the way we have it now. How free are we really to do what we want? How can you live in this world, when you for instance feel that the majority of goods sold in the stores are produced in an unfair way? Truth is there is no choice, and that bugs me. A lot.
Then what's the point of debate if this is about morals? It's really non of your business what other people do with their bodies, just because your morals tells you it's wrong.

Further more, I think the entire system of money is wrong in the way we have it now. How free are we really to do what we want? How can you live in this world, when you for instance feel that the majority of goods sold in the stores are produced in an unfair way? Truth is there is no choice, and that bugs me. A lot.
Me too.
But in reality, even if we convince the capitalists to abandon the holy dollar, what do we have to replace it with?
If i want your help what can i give you to reimburse you for your time if not money?
If i want the thing you have, and your willing to trade, but none of the things i have you need, how can we make the trade?

True. Free sex is one thing, but how can you put a price on something that personal
Your view on that sex is personal, is obviously not shared by the various porn actors.

Edited for clarity.

Me too.
But in reality, even if we convince the capitalists to abandon the holy dollar, what do we have to replace it with?
If i want your help what can i give you to reimburse you for your time if not money?
If i want the thing you have, and your willing to trade, but none of the things i have you need, how can we make the trade?
Don't derail about how capitalism is evil, I'll be happy to debate you in another thread if you should choose to make one.

No she would not do it again, and she didn't after she had the money she needed.

But that is not the point. The point is she did it voluntarily. So it is not rape. Getting into the porn industry is, in most cases, done voluntarily, i.e. no rape either. Rape always has the element of force against the actual wishes of the person being raped, and physical assault.

Anyone who puts porn and rape on an equal base does, IMHO, belittle the attrocity that is rape.
I agree on actual rape being far more attocious than porn. I hope I never implied anything else.

However, there is a degree of forcing going on in the sex industry and that bugs me a lot.

Well, voluntarily is not the way I would describe it. Out of necessity sounds more like it. Take away the necessity (money) and she wouldn't do it anymore. Although she thinks she did it voluntarily, she didn't. I'm sorry for her.

I've just finished my first year of a Creative writing and Media Studies degree, and one of my lecturers is really HOT on this subject. He (yes, he, not she) is a feminist, and seriously DOES believe that pornography is just the same as rape. Anyway, this is a subject that I feel (as a 19 year-oldmale) I should be interested in, (plus, the amount he was talking about it this year, I think it's gonna be part of the "test" as it were, next year).... so here's the question....what do you believe?

Poll coming (hehehe)

Rape : The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.

Pornography : Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal.

Rape is something which is particularly non-consensual..... That is, it requires a "victim" who is forced into "Sexual" or "sexually arousing" act against their expressed will.

Pornography is a medium. A system whereby sexually arousing stimuli is transmitted, through textual, audible or visibile means; for the purpose of causing arrousal.

While it is possible to produce pornographic matieral; through means which are non-consensual; and thereby making such act a "form of" rape.... This is not to say the two or mutually inclusive to one another. That is; not all pornography can be considered "non-consensual"; and thereby any consensual act used for the purpose of producing pornographic material cannot be automatically classified within the realm of "rape" ( a particularly non-consensual act); anymore than you could term all sex as "rape" and non-consensual.

Thus, the assertion made, of using "same as" to relate to "akin to"; makes the statement relevant to determine if it is indeed founded upon a logical assertion. If pornography can be shown to demonstrate placement as a concensual act engaged in by all parties in the production of such material; then the logical assertion holding the two in kinship is automatically rejected by base logical extrapolation of the criteria.

It is an established fact, that the bulk of pornography in distribution is in fact consensual to all parties involved. Therefore the assertion of kinship between the two is rejected, by base logic.... And the Professor is shown to be demonstrating irrational tactics to formulate his base opinions....

To assert that all pornography is consistent and akin to a non-consensual act; is to assert that parties involved in its production are not capable of providing consent for their own bodies, and actions; and thereby the parties are not legally free, and that the parties do not have ownership over their own- It implies, then, that the ideals espoused by this particular "feminist" and those adhering to his beliefs and opinions; are in fact tyranic; asserting ownership over the minds and bodies of all women who consensually engage in the production of pornographic material, and in many cases, even produce their own work in such...

This culminates in such, adhering to those views, as "raping" the liberty of the women who consent to such acts... And thus, they themselves, are on a path towards actions which will ultimately result in the commission of crimes against others, against the expressed consent of the others... Indeed, a conceptual "rape" of all women who work in, or for, industries in the production of pornographic materials...

Thus, you could logically assert, that this particular professor; is "raping" women of their liberty, through his assertions.

Then what's the point of debate if this is about morals? It's really non of your business what other people do with their bodies, just because your morals tells you it's wrong.
No, it's not. In fact, have all the sex you want, I don't care. As long as you want it.

Your definition of personal, is obviously not shared by the various porn actors.
i have no problem with that. they can put emphasis on any aspect they like. Im told they dont like to kiss, its too personal. That is there choice and none should kiss a pornstar who doesnt want them too.


oops, premature quotation, im so embarassed

I agree on actual rape being far more attocious than porn. I hope I never implied anything else.

However, there is a degree of forcing going on in the sex industry and that bugs me a lot.

Well, voluntarily is not the way I would describe it. Out of necessity sounds more like it. Take away the necessity (money) and she wouldn't do it anymore. Although she thinks she did it voluntarily, she didn't. I'm sorry for her.

Wow, someone that finally agrees with me...lol

It does in my mind. sorry. You're a rapist in my mind.I just have to stop reading, and say that this post made me burst out in laughter. :D

Me too.
But in reality, even if we convince the capitalists to abandon the holy dollar, what do we have to replace it with?
If i want your help what can i give you to reimburse you for your time if not money?
If i want the thing you have, and your willing to trade, but none of the things i have you need, how can we make the trade?
That's not the issue here, I think. I only brought it in here to explain my views.

No, it's not. In fact, have all the sex you want, I don't care. As long as you want it.
Are you saying that porn actors do not want to work in porn? Well, to bad they can't quit their jobs, wait, they can :)

I agree on actual rape being far more attocious than porn. I hope I never implied anything else.

However, there is a degree of forcing going on in the sex industry and that bugs me a lot.

Well, voluntarily is not the way I would describe it. Out of necessity sounds more like it. Take away the necessity (money) and she wouldn't do it anymore. Although she thinks she did it voluntarily, she didn't. I'm sorry for her.

Well, take away the money and I wouldn't sit here working.
I don't work as a prostitute and wouldn't do it, but the argument that prostitutes aren't doing it voluntarily but only for the money is silly. Everybody works for the money, except the privileged few who really love their job and identify with what they're doing. And even they get paid...

i have no problem with that. they can put emphasis on any aspect they like. Im told they dont like to kiss, its too personal. That is there choice and none should kiss a pornstar who doesnt want them too.


oops, premature quotation, im so embarassed
And your point is?

Are you saying that porn actors do not want to work in porn? Well, to bad they can't quit their jobs, wait, they can :)
And I hope they will too.

I'm not saying by the way that this applies to all porn actors. That's the whole problem with this thread. I feel however that there are people, like Girl A from a previous post, who have sex against their will for the money. I think there should never be a system that allows that. Furthermore, I think this what the professor meant when he stated that porn = rape. When people feel forced into this, by whatever means, and you then pay money to view the end-product, you are cultivating that system.

One question :
Why do you all keep going on about women in porn and female prostitutes and pitty them?
Most porn movies I've seen so far have at least one male actor. Why does nobody question THEIR motives or situations? Why are women regarded as degrading themselves when perfoming in front of a camera but nobody looses a word about the men?
Those poor souls, dragged into the porno industry against their will, having to f*** 5 to 6 women a day.... :eek:

And your point is?
Simply that youre right, they dont seem to agree and they dont have to.

And I hope they will too.

I'm not saying by the way that this applies to all porn actors. That's the whole problem with this thread. I feel however that there are people, like Girl A from a previous post, who have sex against their will for the money. I think there should never be a system that allows that. Furthermore, I think this what the professor meant when he stated that porn = rape. When people feel forced into this, by whatever means, and you then pay money to view the end-product, you are cultivating that system.
I don't see the problem here. If you need money, get a job. A porn job is just as much a job as working at the coffeshop.

You're saying that everybody who needs work to survive is being forced into it? (well in some way they are but that's not my point;))

Well, take away the money and I wouldn't sit here working.
I don't work as a prostitute and wouldn't do it, but the argument that prostitutes aren't doing it voluntarily but only for the money is silly. Everybody works for the money, except the privileged few who really love their job and identify with what they're doing. And even they get paid...
Sounds like you have a crappy job, sorry.

I'm not saying all prostitutes only work for the money. I'm saying we live in a society that enables, if not promotes, people selling their bodies. And that to me is sick.

I feel it's the same as killing for a living. A lot of people wouldn't do it because they think it is wrong, but then thousands of Americans have been shipped to Iraq to kill thousands of other people and be killed. How did that happen? And then how free are they to really choose if they want to kill someone?

I don't see the problem here. If you need money, get a job. A porn job is just as much a job as working at the coffeshop.

You're saying that everybody who needs work to survive is being forced into it? (well in some way they are but that's not my point;))
It is however my point. ;)

One question :
Why do you all keep going on about women in porn and female prostitutes and pitty them?
Most porn movies I've seen so far have at least one male actor. Why does nobody question THEIR motives or situations? Why are women regarded as degrading themselves when perfoming in front of a camera but nobody looses a word about the men?
Those poor souls, dragged into the porno industry against their will, having to f*** 5 to 6 women a day.... :eek:
I hope I never implied this. I feel it is equally bad for some women as it is for some men.

Sounds like you have a crappy job, sorry.

I'm not saying all prostitutes only work for the money. I'm saying we live in a society that enables, if not promotes, people selling their bodies. And that to me is sick.

I feel it's the same as killing for a living. A lot of people wouldn't do it because they think it is wrong, but then thousands of Americans have been shipped to Iraq to kill thousands of other people and be killed. How did that happen? And then how free are they to really choose if they want to kill someone?
Why is selling your body wrong again? I see no problem with that.

Killing is illegal, having sex is not. Killing takes someone life away, sex does not. See the difference?
Edit: I read your post to soon, you need to come with other reasons than appeals to emotion, if you don't want to kill, don't join the army.

It is however my point. ;)
Okay then, per se everyone is being forced to work, that however has nothing to do with this thread.

Why is selling your body wrong again? I see no problem with that.

Killing is illegal, having sex is not. Killing takes someone life away, sex does not. See the difference?
If you feel that selling your body is a pleasant thing to do, go right ahead, be my guest. I have a problem with the fact that the current system is designed to push people over edges.

If you would normally sleep with strangers 4, 5 times a day, not caring who they are, or what they look like, then you might as well charge them when you're at it and make a good buck.

If you are however very monogamous and you feel forced into prostitution (which is the same as starring in a porn movie), then I think we're going too far.

If you feel that selling your body is a pleasant thing to do, go right ahead, be my guest. I have a problem with the fact that the current system is designed to push people over edges.

If you would normally sleep with strangers 4, 5 times a day, not caring who they are, or what they look like, then you might as well charge them when you're at it and make a good buck.

If you are however very monogamous and you feel forced into prostitution (which is the same as starring in a porn movie), then I think we're going too far.
We're talking in circles, nobody is being forced into anything. You don't HAVE to be a prostitute, you don't HAVE to work in porn. It's not like porn and prostitution are the only available professions.

Sounds like you have a crappy job, sorry.

I'm not saying all prostitutes only work for the money. I'm saying we live in a society that enables, if not promotes, people selling their bodies. And that to me is sick.

I feel it's the same as killing for a living. A lot of people wouldn't do it because they think it is wrong, but then thousands of Americans have been shipped to Iraq to kill thousands of other people and be killed. How did that happen? And then how free are they to really choose if they want to kill someone?


Everybody sells what they have. I sell my IT knowledge and analytical skills to the company, using them for their benefit. Mental prostitution, if you want. I don't mind doing the job, I like the poeple I work with, I like the conditions, but if the company stopped paying me, I'd be out of here looking for another job. Or just sitting at home reading, if I didn't need the money.

Yes, people have the option to sell their bodies, be that as prostitutes, movie stars, photo models, etc. Some sell only their voices, some only their face, some sell their creativity, others sell their knowledge. But we all sell parts of ourselves. What other option is there? The dole?

Sounds like you have a crappy job, sorry.

I'm not saying all prostitutes only work for the money. I'm saying we live in a society that enables, if not promotes, people selling their bodies. And that to me is sick.

I feel it's the same as killing for a living. A lot of people wouldn't do it because they think it is wrong, but then thousands of Americans have been shipped to Iraq to kill thousands of other people and be killed. How did that happen? And then how free are they to really choose if they want to kill someone?

However, there is a core difference between "shipping people off" and someone selling their own body.

The first, is a consensual act by one party; against the properties of another.

The second is a consensual act by one party; over their own property (their body).

While you may not like it; I must impose the first rule of "Liberty"; your rights end where the rights of another begin. And to insist, and trample, upon the rights of a person, and to assert dominion over their property; is alien to Liberty and Freedom; and to insist that you, yourself, have "ownership" of the person of another (slavery, for all intense purposes)... Regardless wether it is tyrany by majority; and such is slavery of the minorities liberties; to the majority..... Is why I reject the Communist view of social order. It denies people their rights; by enslaving the entire populace to majority whim.

While I myself do not like prostitution; and would find the idea of selling my own body; or purchasing services such as that for another; immoral.... I myself must recognize that those persons who do engage in such; and in insistance of their rights being equal to mine; have such right to make such determinations themselves... And not make the falicious assumption that I am defending them, by removing the liberty they possess over their own...

Okay then, per se everyone is being forced to work, that however has nothing to do with this thread.
It does, because working in porn has some interesting qualities:

1 The only experience required is sex, which normally people have had in their lives.
2 It pays extremely well.

Now, if you're someone who hasn't finished high school and are in serious debt, then working in porn/prostitution becomes very attractive. Therefore, it is very bad to have a system where you are required to work and make one of the most immoral (this is the general view, again: exceptions are possible) jobs the best paid ones.

Well, take away the money and I wouldn't sit here working.
I don't work as a prostitute and wouldn't do it, but the argument that prostitutes aren't doing it voluntarily but only for the money is silly. Everybody works for the money, except the privileged few who really love their job and identify with what they're doing. And even they get paid...
Exactly what I wanted to show with my example. Girl A did choose voluntarily the "quicker but dirty road" (her comment). She would have been able to pay off her debts slowly as well. It would have taken longer, but was possible.

Maybe someone should make a "Should prostitution be illegal?" thread?

We're talking in circles, nobody is being forced into anything. You don't HAVE to be a prostitute, you don't HAVE to work in porn. It's not like porn and prostitution are the only available professions.
The fact that they are professions is somewhat disturbing to me though.

What the fuck? Porno actresses get paid a good deal of money to do what they do, and most of it is fake. They're able to quit their job, if they want to, so long as they're not under contract.

Rape, on the other hand, is violent, demoralizing, traumatizing, unwilling...to compare them, at all, is absolutely ridiculous and assinine.
This is just a hyperbole, what she's doing. You see these all the time on Cable News. Some Congressman will compare Bush to a Nazi. Granted, Bush is a wanker, but a Nazi is a bit far.

Why is selling your body wrong again? I see no problem with that.

Killing is illegal, having sex is not. Killing takes someone life away, sex does not. See the difference?
Edit: I read your post to soon, you need to come with other reasons than appeals to emotion, if you don't want to kill, don't join the army.
Its not selling your body, its promoting others to sell THERE bodies that i find distastefull

Everybody sells what they have. I sell my IT knowledge and analytical skills to the company, using them for their benefit. Mental prostitution, if you want. I don't mind doing the job, I like the poeple I work with, I like the conditions, but if the company stopped paying me, I'd be out of here looking for another job. Or just sitting at home reading, if I didn't need the money.

Yes, people have the option to sell their bodies, be that as prostitutes, movie stars, photo models, etc. Some sell only their voices, some only their face, some sell their creativity, others sell their knowledge. But we all sell parts of ourselves. What other option is there? The dole?
Yes, which is the saddest thing of all.

It does, because working in porn has some interesting qualities:

1 The only experience required is sex, which normally people have had in their lives.
2 It pays extremely well.

Now, if you're someone who hasn't finished high school and are in serious debt, then working in porn/prostitution becomes very attractive. Therefore, it is very bad to have a system where you are required to work and make one of the most immoral (this is the general view, again: exceptions are possible) jobs the best paid ones.
Porn isn't immoral. You think they are being "forced" because you view sex as immoral, well it isn't. It's just your definition, and you get to use other arguments than your morals.

Porn pays well with low qualifications: Supply and demand

Example: Vegan: "You shouldn't eat meat cause it's wrong"
Does this make eating meat wrong?
Answer: NO.

This is just a hyperbole, what she's doing. You see these all the time on Cable News. Some Congressman will compare Bush to a Nazi. Granted, Bush is a wanker, but a Nazi is a bit far.
True. Bush is a wanker...
...HEY! was there a topic im getting away from?

Its not selling your body, its promoting others to sell THERE bodies that i find distastefull
As long as the promoter isn't using force or coercion to force or trick someone into selling his/her body what's the problem?

However, there is a core difference between "shipping people off" and someone selling their own body.

The first, is a consensual act by one party; against the properties of another.

The second is a consensual act by one party; over their own property (their body).
The thing they have in common though, killing someone and selling yur own body, is that they could go against your morals. Why do we have a system that forces us to do things that we don't agree with?


While you may not like it; I must impose the first rule of "Liberty"; your rights end where the rights of another begin. And to insist, and trample, upon the rights of a person, and to assert dominion over their property; is alien to Liberty and Freedom; and to insist that you, yourself, have "ownership" of the person of another (slavery, for all intense purposes)... Regardless wether it is tyrany by majority; and such is slavery of the minorities liberties; to the majority..... Is why I reject the Communist view of social order. It denies people their rights; by enslaving the entire populace to majority whim.
I never said I loved communism. I just oppose to this particular aspect of capitalism. I know I'm not a genius, I don't have the answer either.
While I myself do not like prostitution; and would find the idea of selling my own body; or purchasing services such as that for another; immoral.... I myself must recognize that those persons who do engage in such; and in insistance of their rights being equal to mine; have such right to make such determinations themselves... And not make the falicious assumption that I am defending them, by removing the liberty they possess over their own...
I think people should indeed have the liberty to sell their own bodies. I oppose to the difference in payments a waitress and hooker have though. I am afraid that that forces a lot of people to do things against their own morals. And, especially when we are talking about sexual morals, I find that very wrong.

Its not selling your body, its promoting others to sell THERE bodies that i find distastefull

Distastefull, maybe; but such is liberty.... They should have such right, because it is a right imposed over that which they alone possess. It is, in fact, an inherant right which they possess over themselves...

I myself, find the idea of engaging in such distastefull.... But even so, must defend their rights to do so.

To assert that they may not sell that which they, and they alone, own; is to assert that a person does not have ownership of themselves; but is rather a slave. I will not stand for that... Thus, regardless of my personal morals; I must side with ethics on this.... Ethically, and logically, prostitution is not, and should not be a crime in a free society; and neither should pornography.... As both, are an act in consensual engagement, of services rendered by the free decision of the owner of such (the person(s) involved).

If you do not believe people possess themselves, and that people are not free, and have liberty over themselves; but are slaves to the state, or majority concensus; then the discussion is obviously over; as our ideals and prinicples are polar opposites. And it becomes a position of Tyrany vs. Liberty...

Porn isn't immoral. You think they are being "forced" because you view sex as immoral, well it isn't. It's just your definition, and you get to use other arguments than your morals.
It's not my morals that say sex is immoral, it's the morals of the people who hate their job as a porn star/hooker but still keep them for the money.

Porn pays well with low qualifications: Supply and demand

Capitalism :rolleyes:

As long as the promoter isn't using force or coercion to force or trick someone into selling his/her body what's the problem?
None, i should have used a stronger word than promote.
Simply asking someone is not wrong.
But, pushing, coercing people,or even putting them in a position where there are limited choices is definately wrong.
It has to be there honest choice

It's not my morals that say sex is immoral, it's the morals of the people who hate their job as a porn star/hooker but still keep them for the money.

Capitalism :rolleyes:
If they think it's morally wrong to be in porn, they don't have to! WHAT IS IT I AM MISSING HERE?

Capitalism is swell.

It's not my morals that say sex is immoral, it's the morals of the people who hate their job as a porn star/hooker but still keep them for the money.

Capitalism :rolleyes:
It's their choice. If their morals bother them so much they can always make do with less and get a job waiting tables. A waitress in a fairly busy restaurant can make well over $100 per day and doesn't really have to report the bulk of her earnings to the IRS.

None, i should have used a stronger word than promote.
Simply asking someone is not wrong.
But, pushing, coercing people,or even putting them in a position where there are limited choices is definately wrong.
It has to be there honest choice
With your logic every commercial should be banned. It's a free country, she or he cannot be forced, thus it is not wrong.

If they think it's morally wrong to be in porn, they don't have to! WHAT IS IT I AM MISSING HERE?

Capitalism is swell.
If they don't have to, or don't feel forced to, then how come there are so many people, like Girl A, who hate it but still do it? That's what I think you're missing.

And then we didn't even get into the high number of porn actors/actresses who have been sexually abused.

Yes, which is the saddest thing of all.

Yes, wouldn't it be great if nobody had to work at all, but we all could do what we like and nothing else ever again? :rolleyes:

It's their choice. If their morals bother them so much they can always make do with less and get a job waiting tables. A waitress in a fairly busy restaurant can make well over $100 per day and doesn't really have to report the bulk of her earnings to the IRS.
I think the element of choice is somewhat overrated here. Maybe it's just me. I can't ignore any of my morals while I am at work. I even quit once because the store I worked atstarted selling slimfast. Maybe I just am too freaking moral. :)

I myself, find the idea of engaging in such distastefull.... But even so, must defend their rights to do so.

Of course. If that is truely what they choose, freely, then that is there right to sell(rent) there body.

As long as the promoter isn't using force or coercion to force or trick someone into selling his/her body what's the problem?
The problem then becomes: what do we view as using force? I say paying a lot of money for having sex in a society where your status and well-being are depending in the ammount of money you have is force.

The problem then becomes: what do we view as using force? I say paying a lot of money for having sex in a society where your status and well-being are depending in the ammount of money you have is force.
So if someone offered you enough money you would do anything? Of course not. Or at least I hope not. Offering money for services is not coercion, it's compensation.

Yes, wouldn't it be great if nobody had to work at all, but we all could do what we like and nothing else ever again? :rolleyes:
Yes, it would. I do realize that that is impossible, but I think we've gone a little too far with the way we have run this society though. I don't think we need all this extreme wealth most of us (at least the ones at this forum) are endowed with. Especially when the rest of the world is litterally starving to death.

I think the element of choice is somewhat overrated here. Maybe it's just me. I can't ignore nyone of my morals while I am at work. I even quit once because the store I worked atstarted selling slimfast. Maybe I just am too freaking moral. :)

Well, it's the concept of temptation, isn't it?

Hookers and pron stars get offered a lot of money because the job is crap. If the industry wants somebody to do it, they have to create an incentive, money in this case. Fame as well, in some way.

Some people are always ready to throw their moral doubts overboard if the price is right, and will take jobs like that. You wouldn't, and I wouldn't either. But that's just our choice, really. And it doesn't mean that the choice these people make is in any way wrong.

You quit a job because the shop started selling SlimFast. Fair enough, your decision, it's great to see people standing to their values.
But I personally wouldn't have taken offense at that point, I simply wouldn't have cared and kept the job. Cause my moral values are different. But I still have values, and so does every hooker and every pron star. They decided that taking money for sex doesn't compromise their values, good for them. That's no ground for me to judge them in any way or judge the people who pay to watch them or have sex with them.

Yes, wouldn't it be great if nobody had to work at all, but we all could do what we like and nothing else ever again?
Yes, I think I would like that. You wouldnt?

With your logic every commercial should be banned. It's a free country, she or he cannot be forced, thus it is not wrong.
As tempted as i am to ban advertising. They really are only ASKING you to buy there product. there is no threat of violence, and they do not remove other products from the shelves to limit your choices.

The thing they have in common though, killing someone and selling yur own body, is that they could go against your morals. Why do we have a system that forces us to do things that we don't agree with?

I never said I loved communism. I just oppose to this particular aspect of capitalism. I know I'm not a genius, I don't have the answer either.
I think people should indeed have the liberty to sell their own bodies. I oppose to the difference in payments a waitress and hooker have though. I am afraid that that forces a lot of people to do things against their own morals. And, especially when we are talking about sexual morals, I find that very wrong.

Pricing is determinative to consent as well.... That is, the price is determined by the supply and demand principle....

Even if acting against their own morals (I do so right now; in fact... As I, in terms of personal morality oppose engaging either as provider or client in such acts, and would not encourage other to do the same); must impose relational ethics between all parties (including myself) in the larger scope.

Even if someone made the choice to do something against their own personal morals; they made such choice consensually. While it may be sad to see them do such; that is a fact of liberty... It was their choice; and they made it. I cannot presume to be able to make their choice; or force them to make a choice which they themselves did not want.

In this, I have two options. I can deny them their choice.... In which case I make the assumption that I may determine ownership of their own-selves... While this may support my own personal morality; it is an imposition of my moral choice upon that of another; and an assumption of partial to complete ownership of the other; and therefore counter-intuitive to my personal morality concerning the ethical principle of the liberty of the individual over their own. And thus insist a superiority of my personal moral order over that of others...

Or, I can assume my moral stance in ethics on the liberty of the individual; to make those choices they deem fit. Thus assuring my own personal morality exists, and will continue to exist as an extension of my personal liberty.

The first assumes I possess superiority over others.... Which is immoral...

The second assumes that all others possess equality in law with myself.... Which is both morally and ethically sound.

If I assert the first; I set precedence towards the destruction of my own ability to make personal moral determinations; and subject my entire moral framework to enslavement by the state, and any vocal majority.

If I assert the second; I set precedent towards the protection and assurance of my own continued ability to make self-determination of my moral direction and order.

Arguments of "distaste" are sophistry... An appeal to emotion, as opposed to reason.... Law should be founded in reason, not emotion....

This is why I stand where I do...

Some people may make decisions contrary to their personal morality.... That is their decision.... Others may not; but that is still their decision... And it's the principle of their own self-determination, their freedom to make those decisions; which is where my defense stands.... Thus law only existing to handle contest where one person has abused their liberty an the expense of the liberty of another or others... We cannot extend this, rightly and ethically, to impose contest between a person and themselves.... As we, as free-people, should recognize how unethical it is to do so upon another free-person; it denies them their freedom over themselves as a person; and sets precedent, to where our own decisions, within the limits of our ethical liberty in relation to others real liberty, where there is no "wronged" party.

I defend you right to say prostitution is "immoral"... That is your right; and within that right you have the capability to make decisions in that light, according to such morals, and not engage in, or participate with, such activities.... However, to extend that "moral" opinion over the decisions of another, is wrong.... As it assumes the other person possesses no right of self-determination with their own person. If they do not possess that right, to make their own decisions regardant to their morality.... Then what gives you such right to make decisions regardant to your own?

This is why "Ethics" should take precedent over "Morals" in determination of law.... Because one's core "morals" cannot extend past ones own person.... Why Ethics exist accross personal boundries to all, in our interoperation as a society..... Morals exists as an emotional concern... Ethics by reason...

So if someone offered you enough money you would do anything? Of course not. Or at least I hope not. Offering money for services is not coercion, it's compensation.
For one particualr service, it is. When you look at the whole picture though, isn't it sickening that there are people out there sucking dick, hating to do it but go on because of such a trivial thing as money?

We live in a society that IMHO has placed way too much emphasis on wealth. This is what I fear is driving people into the sex industry. And although I would never do anything I find immoral for money, I find it sick that we allow others to be forced into doing so.

If however, these people are genuinely loving their porn jobs, then there's nothing wrong with it.

If they don't have to, or don't feel forced to, then how come there are so many people, like Girl A, who hate it but still do it? That's what I think you're missing.

And then we didn't even get into the high number of porn actors/actresses who have been sexually abused.
If they hate it but still do it it's their own choice. What am I missing?

For one particualr service, it is. When you look at the whole picture though, isn't it sickening that there are people out there sucking dick, hating to do it but go on because of such a trivial thing as money?

We live in a society that IMHO has placed way too much emphasis on wealth. This is what I fear is driving people into the sex industry. And although I would never do anything I find immoral for money, I find it sick that we allow others to be forced into doing so.

If however, these people are genuinely loving their porn jobs, then there's nothing wrong with it.
So, you want people to go around with lie detectors to find out if they genuinely love their jobs? There isn't and amendement saying you have to enjoy your job :confused:

Pricing is determinative to consent as well.... That is, the price is determined by the supply and demand principle....

Even if acting against their own morals (I do so right now; in fact... As I, in terms of personal morality oppose engaging either as provider or client in such acts, and would not encourage other to do the same); must impose relational ethics between all parties (including myself) in the larger scope.

Even if someone made the choice to do something against their own personal morals; they made such choice consensually. While it may be sad to see them do such; that is a fact of liberty... It was their choice; and they made it. I cannot presume to be able to make their choice; or force them to make a choice which they themselves did not want.

In this, I have two options. I can deny them their choice.... In which case I make the assumption that I may determine ownership of their own-selves... While this may support my own personal morality; it is an imposition of my moral choice upon that of another; and an assumption of partial to complete ownership of the other; and therefore counter-intuitive to my personal morality concerning the ethical principle of the liberty of the individual over their own. And thus insist a superiority of my personal moral order over that of others...

Or, I can assume my moral stance in ethics on the liberty of the individual; to make those choices they deem fit. Thus assuring my own personal morality exists, and will continue to exist as an extension of my personal liberty.

Or you could take away the reason why they would choose to do something against their morals.

I am in favor of free choice. I am in favor of free sexuality. I am however opposed to the system we have that makes some people, like Girl A from a previous post, have sex against their will, for money.

Why did this girl have a large debt in her early twenties? Probably because education is so freaking expensive. She could have done a lot of other things to pay back the money, but the quickest way to do this was work as a prostitute. She chose to set aside her morals, which is her own free choice, but I think she shouldn't have had to. She shouldn't have had such a big debt.

So, you want people to go around with lie detectors to find out if they genuinely love their jobs? There isn't and amendement saying you have to enjoy your job :confused:
Haha, no, although it would be a whole lot better if our society was focused on getting a job you like instead of getting a job that pays you best.

So, you want people to go around with lie detectors to find out if they genuinely love their jobs? There isn't and amendement saying you have to enjoy your job :confused:
NO that would be forceing them to your(there) view that people "MUST LOVE THERE JOB" they dont have to like it they just have to have the freedom to choose not to do it if they dont want to. Most people dont LOVE there job, why would porn stars. If jobs were fun people wouldnt pay you to do it, you'd pay them.

Or you could take away the reason why they would choose to do something against their morals.

I am in favor of free choice. I am in favor of free sexuality. I am however opposed to the system we have that makes some people, like Girl A from a previous post, have sex against their will, for money.

Why did this girl have a large debt in her early twenties? Probably because education is so freaking expensive. She could have done a lot of other things to pay back the money, but the quickest way to do this was work as a prostitute. She chose to set aside her morals, which is her own free choice, but I think she shouldn't have had to. She shouldn't have had such a big debt.
Damn it, your hate of the "system" has nothing to do with "Porn = Rape?" Make another thread about it.

They're not having sex against their will, they agreed to do it, it is by definition, by their own will.

NO that would be forceing them to your(there) view that people "MUST LOVE THERE JOB" they dont have to like it they just have to have the freedom to choose not to do it if they dont want to. Most people dont LOVE there job, why would porn stars. If jobs were fun people wouldnt pay you to do it, you'd pay them.
So what is your point? Porn is wrong but it's okay? That doesn't make sense?

If they hate it but still do it it's their own choice. What am I missing?
You are denying that the necessity of money has anything to do with it. I say get rid of the cause of these bad choices (i.e. take money out of porn (FREE PORN FOR EVERYONE!!! LOL - Ok, that's my hidden motive, you caught me...)) and you're done.

So what is your point? Porn is wrong but it's okay? That doesn't make sense?
No again. porn is only wrong if you dont want to be in porn, and then only for you. Me - im all for porn. But if i found out that someone in that porn was doing it against there will i would be sickened.
No actually id be angery with them (the forc-er) for dirtying up my good porn with there hate crimes

For one particualr service, it is. When you look at the whole picture though, isn't it sickening that there are people out there sucking dick, hating to do it but go on because of such a trivial thing as money?

We live in a society that IMHO has placed way too much emphasis on wealth. This is what I fear is driving people into the sex industry. And although I would never do anything I find immoral for money, I find it sick that we allow others to be forced into doing so.

If however, these people are genuinely loving their porn jobs, then there's nothing wrong with it.
They obviously don't hate sucking dicks all that much because a nice fat check makes it worth their while.

People make their own choices with regard to what jobs they'll work at. Money is only one factor in making the decision. Nobody's forcing them to do anything.

Damn it, your hate of the "system" has nothing to do with "Porn = Rape?" Make another thread about it.

and invite me

You are denying that the necessity of money has anything to do with it. I say get rid of the cause of these bad choices (i.e. take money out of porn (FREE PORN FOR EVERYONE!!! LOL - Ok, that's my hidden motive, you caught me...)) and you're done.

You don't seem to understand. What you or anyone think is a bad choice, is IRRELEVANT! The fact that there is money involved is IRRELEVANT.

When you agree to do something by your own free will, it is by definition, your own choice.

Do you not understand this?

Edit: They are by definition, not forced, because they agreed to it, having many other choices. Get it?

Ok. Yes, I could, and EW!
And rape is not sex. It has nothing to do with sex. It's assault. It's about power, and it's wrong.

And I just had sex with you in my mind. It was good.
In the words of Adam Corolla
“Rape is a VIOLENT VIOLENT action just like torturing or beating up someone ….
But you cum

I mean no different the robbing a store with a gun and hitting the clerk with a pistol

But you cum

“
:) (not saying I agree just was on topic lol)

They obviously don't hate sucking dicks all that much because a nice fat check makes it worth their while.

People make their own choices with regard to what jobs they'll work at. Money is only one factor in making the decision. Nobody's forcing them to do anything.
In having sex, money should never be a factor to choose a job. Of course they can also choose to do another job, but then why do so many porn stars/prostitutes do it while they hate it? Seems to me that capitalism has gone too far here.

You are denying that the necessity of money has anything to do with it. I say get rid of the cause of these bad choices (i.e. take money out of porn (FREE PORN FOR EVERYONE!!! LOL - Ok, that's my hidden motive, you caught me...)) and you're done.
EVERY job decision you make is based on your income from it … just because you do not like them being able to make this choice does not mean it should be illegal to do so

In having sex, money should never be a factor to choose a job. Of course they can also choose to do another job, but then why do so many porn stars/prostitutes do it while they hate it? Seems to me that capitalism has gone too far here.
What about the guy who vacumes out the portable toilets on construction sites? He probably doesn't like being splattered with shit and piss all day, but the money makes it worth it. Is he being "forced" to do that job?

You don't seem to understand. What you or anyone think is a bad choice, is IRRELEVANT! The fact that there is money involved is IRRELEVANT.

When you agree to do something by your own free will, it is by definition, your own choice.

Do you not understand this?

Edit: They are by definition, not forced, because they agreed to it, having many other choices. Get it?
Yes, I get that and I do understand it.

However, I think the free will you talk about isn't as free as you imply. I'm talking about those people who wouldn't choose to be in these professions if there wouldn't be any money involved. How can you then say money hasn't got anything to do with it?

What about the guy who vacumes out the portable toilets on construction sites? He probably doesn't like being splattered with shit and piss all day, but the money makes it worth it. Is he being "forced" to do that job?
Yes, he is. Although he probably doesn't have any moral objections to doing it like some porn stars/ prostitutes have.

Yes, I get that and I do understand it.

However, I think the free will you talk about isn't as free as you imply. I'm talking about those people who wouldn't choose to be in these professions if there wouldn't be any money involved. How can you then say money hasn't got anything to do with it?
Money is a factor in making a CHOICE. It's not coercion and it's not force. If a porn star wanted to get out of the business he or she might not make as much with a normal job, but he or she wouldn't starve.

EVERY job decision you make is based on your income from it … just because you do not like them being able to make this choice does not mean it should be illegal to do so
I never said anything about making porn illegal. It should be legal to make it, buy it and watch it.

And no, not every job decision you make is based on your income. Maybe every job decision YOU make, but not me.

I love the fact that we live in a world where you are able to make a porn movie. I just hate that at the same time a lot of people feel forced into doing so.

Money is a factor in making a CHOICE. It's not coercion and it's not force. If a porn star wanted to get out of the business he or she might not make as much with a normal job, but he or she wouldn't starve.
And with having less money comes having less status and a lower level of well-being. Why do we feel people who live in trailer parks less worthy than those who are able to afford their own house? This is what I think is a really big problem in todays society.

Of course you ca still choose to work as a waitress and live in a trailer park, but it's a lot worse.

I've just finished my first year of a Creative writing and Media Studies degree, and one of my lecturers is really HOT on this subject. He (yes, he, not she) is a feminist, and seriously DOES believe that pornography is just the same as rape. Anyway, this is a subject that I feel (as a 19 year-oldmale) I should be interested in, (plus, the amount he was talking about it this year, I think it's gonna be part of the "test" as it were, next year).... so here's the question....what do you believe?

Poll coming (hehehe)

Porn is about fantasy and sex. Rape is not about sex as any counselor can tell you. It's about power. It's about violence. Porn is not about this and in some ways (at least in America) violence in porn is forbidden during the sex scenes.

The man is no feminist. Feminists wish for equality. Based on what you've said this man believes that only men can rape, and by thought no less. He trivializes the act and the victims with his statements. If thoughts make you guilty of a crime this guy deserves to be buried under the jail for his portrayal of almost all men as rapists (who doesn't watch porn) and almost all women as victims (women are so weak and fragile that to fantasize about them hurts them as badly as tear their flesh and beating them into the hospital). The entire premise is not just ridiculous, it's dangerous.

I never said anything about making porn illegal. It should be legal to make it, buy it and watch it.

And no, not every job decision you make is based on your income. Maybe every job decision YOU make, but not me.

I love the fact that we live in a world where you are able to make a porn movie. I just hate that at the same time a lot of people feel forced into doing so.
I did not say primary concern but it is involved in the decision process somewhere as far as employment considerations

I never said anything about making porn illegal. It should be legal to make it, buy it and watch it.

And no, not every job decision you make is based on your income. Maybe every job decision YOU make, but not me.

I love the fact that we live in a world where you are able to make a porn movie. I just hate that at the same time a lot of people feel forced into doing so.

People are forced into porn to make money like people are forced into eating at McDonalds because they are hungry. Why does Ronald keep raping me?

People are forced into porn to make money like people are forced into eating at McDonalds because they are hungry. Why does Ronald keep raping me?
Because you keep bending over.

I think this man needs to get his testicles back.
This isn't even really an issue. Modern feminism is lunacy.

I have no problem with feminists, or feminazis. I. am of the belief that everyone's view is fine, it's just when they shove it in your face that i get angry. I regularly tell protesters this and get called all manner of things. For a 15-year-old male with acne, i can be both very philosophical and a right sod in the same sentence.

But on the whole, feminazis fall under the shove it in your face category so most feminazis i dislike.

Here's my satance (I wrote 'satance') on pornography: W00T t3h 1337 pr0n!1!
Here's my stance on feminazis blamming ponrography: If they had a todger and hormones, they'd understand why men find "defiling themselves with thier hands" (that's what it means, roughly) so fun. They don't understand the meaning of 'turned on by a wall'.

I also feel that if women could experience being hit by something in the gonads, they'd stop doing it to us. But some guys deserve it.

And with having less money comes having less status and a lower level of well-being. Why do we feel people who live in trailer parks less worthy than those who are able to afford their own house? This is what I think is a really big problem in todays society.

Of course you ca still choose to work as a waitress and live in a trailer park, but it's a lot worse.
Dude, you might feel someone who lives in a trailer park is "less worthy" than a home owner. Most people don't judge others strictly on their income.

Every decision we make comes with positive consequences and negative ones. I might like to drink on the job, but if I do I'll get fired. I still have a choice to do it or not. I just have to live with the consequences of my choice. Same with porn. They have the choice to be in porn or not.

Yes, I get that and I do understand it.

However, I think the free will you talk about isn't as free as you imply. I'm talking about those people who wouldn't choose to be in these professions if there wouldn't be any money involved. How can you then say money hasn't got anything to do with it?

I wouldn't be in my profession if there were no money involved and I love my job. It's a ridiculous point. And having read about half of the thread it seems like the person who finds money to be the most important is you. Why do you put so much emphasis on money?

Of course you ca still choose to work as a waitress and live in a trailer park, but it's a lot worse.

I worked as a waiter/bartender and had to share a small apartment with a roommate for several years. Now I have a huge place and make a good deal of money and I sometimes consider going back. The job was much more fun and less stress and I loved meeting people. Don't judge people on the money they make. They may very well be happier than you.

Because you keep bending over.

Way to avoid the point. Just because I might go into McDonalds to satisfy my hunger and it's fast and easy doesn't mean I don't have the choice to go eat somewhere else.

Dude, you might feel someone who lives in a trailer park is "less worthy" than a home owner. Most people don't judge others strictly on their income.
I don't feel someone who lives in a trailer park is less worthy, on the contrary. You can not deny however that society does, generally, feel this way. Ever heard of the expression trailer park trash? Or what about kids getting teased in school for not wearing the latest fashion? Or the "homeless problem"? That to me sounds like judgement based upon status, which is connected to money in our society.

Every decision we make comes with positive consequences and negative ones. I might like to drink on the job, but if I do I'll get fired. I still have a choice to do it or not. I just have to live with the consequences of my choice. Same with porn. They have the choice to be in porn or not.
I agree with you on that. I still regret the fact that people choose money over their own bodies though, which I think can only exist if there is a society in which sex is something you can pay for. If we would take that away, it wouldn't be so that people would make the choice. If we all stopped buying porn, the situation would change. I think that is what the professor meant and I can agree with him on that. You have a responsibility towards the stuff you buy.

Way to avoid the point. Just because I might go into McDonalds to satisfy my hunger and it's fast and easy doesn't mean I don't have the choice to go eat somewhere else.
Then ask yourself why you keep going to McDonalds if you feel you're being raped by Ronald? I myself haven't been there for years.

I don't feel someone who lives in a trailer park is less worthy, on the contrary. You can not deny however that society does, generally, feel this way. Ever heard of the expression trailer park trash? Or what about kids getting teased in school for not wearing the latest fashion? Or the "homeless problem"? That to me sounds like judgement based upon status, which is connected to money in our society.

I agree with you on that. I still regret the fact that people choose money over their own bodies though, which I think can only exist if there is a society in which sex is something you can pay for. If we would take that away, it wouldn't be so that people would make the choice. If we all stopped buying porn, the situation would change. I think that is what the professor meant and I can agree with him on that. You have a responsibility towards the stuff you buy.
Now we're at the root of the disagreement. You regret that people choose money over their own bodies. But it's not your body and therefore it's not your choice.

You want people to stop buying porn because you don't like the idea of someone making porn videos for cash. Well, don't buy it. Ask others not to buy it if it offends you so much. Don't be surprised though when the market for porn keeps growing. Many people don't agree that paying someone to have sex on camera is somehow wrong.

Now we're at the root of the disagreement. You regret that people choose money over their own bodies. But it's not your body and therefore it's not your choice.

You want people to stop buying porn because you don't like the idea of someone making porn videos for cash. Well, don't buy it. Ask others not to buy it if it offends you so much. Don't be surprised though when the market for porn keeps growing. Many people don't agree that paying someone to have sex on camera is somehow wrong.
Sorrily enough, they don't. But then again, porn probaly wouldn't be as exciting when you were to think all the time about the actors lives, why they degrade themselves so much (if these actors themselves feel that they do), how many of them have been abused as children etcetera. I don't understand why pople can't seem to stop and think about the whole situation behind it. I mean, would you watch a porn flick with an actor of whom you knew that they were sexually abused as a child and actually hate to suck dick, fakes all the orgasms just so they can get a decent sum of money?

Then ask yourself why you keep going to McDonalds if you feel you're being raped by Ronald? I myself haven't been there for years.

Oh, looky, you made my argument. I don't go to McDonalds and people who do so, do so of their own free will. It is the same with a job, any job, no matter how easy the job, how little skill it involves and how much it pays.

Anyway, I have to go. Enjoy your freedom to watch all the porn you like, you have that freedom and I think you should. But please also try and think about the situations that made these people get into the industry once, and whether or not you want to support that. That's all I ask.

It's been a nice time here, thank you all.

:)

Sorrily enough, they don't. But then again, porn probaly wouldn't be as exciting when you were to think all the time about the actors lives, why they degrade themselves so much (if these actors themselves feel that they do), how many of them have been abused as children etcetera. I don't understand why pople can't seem to stop and think about the whole situation behind it. I mean, would you watch a porn flick with an actor of whom you knew that they were sexually abused as a child and actually hate to suck dick, fakes all the orgasms just so they can get a decent sum of money?
Yes. I have no problem watching such a porn movie. Why? The actress isn't a child now. She's an adult and has weighed the pros and cons of acting in adult porn. She's made her decision freely.

Question for you. If you knew that the Janitor who cleans the toilets at work or at school hates his job, feels degraded by it, and only does it because he had to drop out of school to help support his abusive family do you still take a dump?

Sorrily enough, they don't. But then again, porn probaly wouldn't be as exciting when you were to think all the time about the actors lives, why they degrade themselves so much (if these actors themselves feel that they do), how many of them have been abused as children etcetera. I don't understand why pople can't seem to stop and think about the whole situation behind it. I mean, would you watch a porn flick with an actor of whom you knew that they were sexually abused as a child and actually hate to suck dick, fakes all the orgasms just so they can get a decent sum of money?
Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy wherein the arguer (who is using this fallacy) takes advantage of emotion to prove his or her argument.

I don't feel someone who lives in a trailer park is less worthy, on the contrary. You can not deny however that society does, generally, feel this way. Ever heard of the expression trailer park trash? Or what about kids getting teased in school for not wearing the latest fashion? Or the "homeless problem"? That to me sounds like judgement based upon status, which is connected to money in our society.

I agree with you on that. I still regret the fact that people choose money over their own bodies though, which I think can only exist if there is a society in which sex is something you can pay for. If we would take that away, it wouldn't be so that people would make the choice. If we all stopped buying porn, the situation would change. I think that is what the professor meant and I can agree with him on that. You have a responsibility towards the stuff you buy.

How is having sex any more disrespectful to your body than cleaning up shit or driving a cab or working in a coalmine? In fact, coalminers often live in places where there is no other industry save coalmining. They actually have less choice. I think professional atheletes are way more disrespectful of their bodies than pornstars. After porn, many people go on to live happy, healthy lives free of debt or drugs, etc. After sports, many people's bodies are completely destroyed and sometimes even their heads and they are often addicted to painkillers. Porn just makes a good target because it's sex and sex for money is considered 'icky'.

Or you could take away the reason why they would choose to do something against their morals.

I am in favor of free choice. I am in favor of free sexuality. I am however opposed to the system we have that makes some people, like Girl A from a previous post, have sex against their will, for money.

Why did this girl have a large debt in her early twenties? Probably because education is so freaking expensive. She could have done a lot of other things to pay back the money, but the quickest way to do this was work as a prostitute. She chose to set aside her morals, which is her own free choice, but I think she shouldn't have had to. She shouldn't have had such a big debt.

Except, the "system" does not "make" people make the choices they do.

And she never "had" to do it.

1. We do not know why, or how she managed to accumulate such a large debt.

2. Even in light of such debt, there was no force or cooersion in how she planned to pay off that debt. Her own decisions were made in light of how she felt was best (for her) to pay it off.

3. She made a decision against her morals; It was still her decision, and she still had options and choices to remain consistent with her own personal morality. Her choice to operate against her morals on this instance; was still a personal choice.

Personal choice and liberty automatically implies that choices of all calibres be available. Even ones you may find distastefull.... Merely because they may be "attractive" does not mean they are "forced" to make such out of attraction; they possess equal liberty to reject (by their choice) as accept (by their choice).

While I may sympathize with your anti-monetary ideas; they are infact not founded in any practical logic or reason. Money is merely a form of trade/negotiation between parties in commerce. Trade can take many forms.

As an illustration, I will point out the system revamped to prevent the use of Social Food-Programs from being used in drug-trade, or for criminal services. The idea was to abolish money in the system. Which was done.... Since there is no trade in "money" or comparible slip. The system would "fix" this problem, right?

Wrong... What occured, was merely people using "food" as a form of tender in trade... Money is not the root of all evil.... It is a consequence of trade... "Money" merely existing as a particular form in mint; for transactions between people selling and buying goods and services.... If the minted aspect is removed; it merely gets replaced in the market transactions with other more core aspects; such as goods and services.... But in reality, is till the same tranaction, and results in the same system; in the long run...

Schools are expensive because there is massive demand for them. As such, the trade in skills and knowledge received from the school, is provided by those who will reap the benefits of that knowledge.... The cost is handled by the demand..... If it costs less to get something, more people get it... Causing less demand.... When demand drops; the resultant market is flooded, causing trade-in-service to drop.... Everyone makes less money, making it just as difficult to pay back the initial debt incurred in the initial service rendered by the school in providing the knowledge and skills to perform their task.... You're back at square one.... With less demand.... less people enter the field; and the demand begins to climb.... And the price for those skills rises..... This creates more of a demand, causing the cost of aquiring those skills to raise.....

The system may not operate flawlessly; but it is a price of "freedom". Because, as soon as you impose over the system, there no longer is "freedom" to those inside of it.

Let's take myself, as example.... I run my own IT contracting business...

My prices are set:
1. To cover my expenses in parts and equipment
2. As a fair value of my labor
3. To undercut competition

If I can provide lower prices, then I can attract business from competitors. Thus creating more demand for my business.

As demand increases, my prices will go up.... While at the same time, I have to ballance that demand, with my own competitory concerns in undercutting other business....

Free-market is competitory.... It ensures competition between individuals in the market....

When a company or person contract; they typically operate by worth of service.... When they have a need, or want; they make their determinations on payment for such service, by how much it is worth to them.... Now, when they seek the contract for the service... They do so by "shopping" around for quotes.... And will likely take the lowest quote; or the lowest reliable quote from a reputable contractor....

If the lowest is too much, according to their worth; they must either accept to higher cost; or reject aquiring the service. It's still their choice.

The same occurs in anything anyone does in this market; even as far as education. They pay for their education, and consent to it; because they deem that "it is worth it".... They pay it back in ways which they personally choose "is worth it"... And they do so, through their own decisions.

This person chooses to go to school, to aquire skill "X".

They incur "Y" debt by this choice.

And they decide to pay back "Y" debt in the fastest way they see possible.

The fastest way, is against moral "Z"; but they decide to do it anyway to consent to their previous decision...

Were they "forced" into prostitution? No....
Did they "have" to prostitute themselves to pay the debt back? No...
Were they forced to go to school to incur this debt? No...
Were they forced to aquire a certain skill/knowlege? No...

They decided freely that they wanted a certain field of study and work....

They decided freely to go to school and incur such debt to aquire that skill/work...

They decided freely to take actions they found distastefull to pay back their debt when aquiring that skill...

And they decided to go against their personal morality in doing so....

While they may assert some "victim" mentality.... The only person they are a victim of, is themselves.... Because everything they did, they did by making the choices to do so.... They were never logically forced into anything...

They could have taken a skill/work other than the one they did, that was less expensive to aquire....

They could have choosen a less expensive school....

They could have choosen to pay the debt off slower...

They could have choosen to enter some other profession...

I do not buy the falacy of "self-victimization"....

Anyway, I have to go. Enjoy your freedom to watch all the porn you like, you have that freedom and I think you should. But please also try and think about the situations that made these people get into the industry once, and whether or not you want to support that. That's all I ask.

It's been a nice time here, thank you all.

:)

Reworded - "I see that I cannot win this argument as your stance is much more founded than mine so I will leave instead. Mostly I hate admitting when I'm wrong because I was mistreated as a child. I'm wearing underoos. Why does it smell like bananas in here?"

NOTE: Yes, I have a bit of a disorder.

Yes, I get that and I do understand it.

However, I think the free will you talk about isn't as free as you imply. I'm talking about those people who wouldn't choose to be in these professions if there wouldn't be any money involved. How can you then say money hasn't got anything to do with it?

You're right...

Then again, no one would be scrubbing shit from the floor of public bathrooms, if no money was involved....

The problem; those professions don't exist because there is money involved. They exist because people want them. And people choose to do them. Money is a CONSEQUENCE/RESULT and not a CAUSE. The CAUSE is demand... Monetary re-embursement (MONEY) is the EFFECT of the ACTION intailed by the CAUSE.

That is, for your system to work; you must assume no demand, or force no demand.... To do that, you must control people, and make determinations upon their own desires (against their will).

So it still comes back to personal liberty. To remove MONEY for PORN and PROSTITUTION, you must REMOVE PROSTITUTION AND PORN. To do this, you must determine (for others, not in line with their neccessate will) that no one may possess desire for such, therefore removing the DEMAND for such.

PERSON motivated by DESIRE and WANT Creates DEMAND
DEMAND creates MARKET
MARKET creates INDUSTRY
INDUSTRY creates WORKERS
WORKERS create MONEY.
MONEY creates DEMAND
and so on...

To remove the "MONEY" you must remove the "PERSON".... Thereby removing any semblance of "liberty", "freedom", "independence", "individuality"... And such like... Removing "MONEY" only drives it into the "BLACK" (or hidden) Market.... And does not actually do anything towards the act.

The root cause of it all is "PERSON", that is, people, just like you and me, who think independently and make our own choices...

So the logical course... If you want to eradicate the entire industry.... You must remove the entire human race...

Fair enough...but then even with consent, surely the person allowing these things to happen to her has something mentally wrong with her, so therefore any subsequent sexua act on a mans part with said woman is rape, because she is not in sound mind.

So if someone is sexualy excited by something that you do not find sexualy exciting they are not of sound mind?

Bumpo...

But the point of sex is to make babies (yes and the enjoyable factor as well),

If the point of sex was to make babys birth control would still be against the law.

So if someone is sexualy excited by something that you do not find sexualy exciting they are not of sound mind?

No, but as we were talking about at the time, if she allows harm to come to her body (which in the case of suicide and self-harming, this is the case) then she is mentally ill - in which case anyone who "plays" with her body is taking advantage of her.

Originally Posted by President Shrub
Qu'ran [2:111]
Some have said, "No one will enter Paradise except Jews or Christians!" Such is their wishful thinking. Say, "Show us your proof, if you are right."

John 14:6 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

10. The Earth quakes and the heavens rattle;
the beasts of nature flock together and the
nations of men flock apart; volcanoes usher up
heat while elsewhere water becomes ice and
melts; and then on other days it just rains.
11. Indeed do many things come to pass.
HBT; The Book of Predictions, Chap. 19

Now, are we bloody well finished quoting holy books at each other?

I think it's nice to see that some countries aren't so worried about the mind warping qualities of the human nipple.


mmmmm nipples . . .


sorry, what was this thread about again?

You are either a slave to God or a slave to Satan. It's a black-and-white issue, really. That which is not of God is of Satan. So, yes, I suppose you could call me a slave of God. But don't let the negative connotation of the word slave delude the meaning of this truth.


"I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free."

And with the words of Eris be ye a slave no longer.

No, but as we were talking about at the time, if she allows harm to come to her body (which in the case of suicide and self-harming, this is the case) then she is mentally ill - in which case anyone who "plays" with her body is taking advantage of her.

that depends upon your definition of the word "harm". I am in a relationship with a BD/SM aspect to it. I like to be dominant. My partner likes to submit. I like to inflict consensual pain, and my partner likes to recieve consensual pain. Some of our sessions include rape, torture, psychological abuse, humiliation, and so on.

And it is all fantasy. We both get things out of it that otherwise would take much more money than we could afford. Our lifestyle helps us relieve stress, get theraputic activity, and deepen our personal bonds. I do not see what we do as causing "harm".

Now, to answer your original question, no. Rape is not the equivalent of pornography.

If every time you fantasized about having sdex with a woman (and she did notk now about hte fantasy, therefore could not consent to being fantasized about) was rape, then every single heterosexual man would be guilty of rape.

Rape is specific. It is something against someone's will. It literally means "taking without mercy" or taking without regard to the consequences. It has become synonimous with sexual abuse. Only in specific instances could pornography be construed as rape. When some or all of the participants are unwilling, but forced, to participate. Then it is rape. But that does not have anything to do with pornography.

And about thought equating to action...are you on crack? Everyone has thoughts every day that would not be good to live out. People have homicidal or suicidal urges, rape fantasies, fighting fantasies, megalomania, et cetera. Why would you equate THINKING with DOING?

They are two seperate things. Every time I play Age of Empires, and I raze my enemies to the ground, by your logic, I have just committed genocide. Against pixels. Because I thought about it.

Go grow a brain and stop listening to a dumbfuck professor who can not think for himself.

Everything's a black and white issue to you, NR. You turn to religion for solutions to everything, trying very hard never to question any of it. I'm sure it comforts you greatly. However, one day, you might find yourself in a situation where you must question everything you took for granted as "truth". Then you will start to see that life isn't so much about black and white but shades of gray.

I see it as shades of bluish orange.

My two cents on the subject having studied it in some depth during my first degree (not in terms of having watched it though :D): while (in the majority of cases), porn is not rape, I consider it a bad thing essentially because it objectifies women (before you say it, be honest; how much porn out there focuses on men? So what if it's a "buyer's market" - shouldn't there at least be some attempt at equity?) - if you continue to see women as objects, even subliminally, how can they ever expect to achieve equality? Especially when it involves two women rather than a man and a woman; many of the men I've spoken to who find this arousing would be disgusted by the sight of two men having sex, even though they claim not to be homophobic. One once claimed that this was simple biology; it's more attractive to see two women together than a heterosexual couple never mind two men because a man poses a threat to one's chances with the female. I find that a frankly bizarre argument; surely a man has less chance with a lesbian than he does with a girl who demonstrates herself to be straight?!

Anyway, there are cases when it porn can involve outright rape - the film Deep Throat is the quintessential example of this, though it seems that it is generally accepted that this is not the norm. About 9/10 of female participants involved in internet pornography specifically claimed to have been sexually abused and from deprived backgrounds in their youth, and plenty of research and surveys have demonstrated that they claim to have essentially became involved in the industry due to a lack of self-worth (don't know anything about the regulated porn industry, however). MacKinnon and Dworkin are the essential writers on the subject, but granted, they are radical "feminazis". However, there has been plenty of work done by both conservative and liberal thinkers alike to back up some of their points - viz Valerie Bryson, Bernard Williams et al.

All that said, of course there are plenty of women (and, indeed, men) who go into this industry quite happily. It still baffles me, however, why people in fulfilling sexual relationships feel the supposed need to use porn. Although I personally don't agree with it, I can understand why single people would use it, but what's the need for it when in a relationship? Variety? Lack of quantity of sex? Well, if you feel unfulfilled or incompatible in any aspect of your relationship - sex or otherwise - then there seems little point in having the relationship at all. If both partners are fine with it, or enjoy it together, fair enough, but if not, it just doesn't seem worth all the hurt and hassle for a quick fix.

What about the guy who vacumes out the portable toilets on construction sites? He probably doesn't like being splattered with shit and piss all day, but the money makes it worth it. Is he being "forced" to do that job?

I myself would rather be on my knees servicing a 400 lb man that sucking shit out of a porta-john.

I myself would rather be on my knees servicing a 400 lb man that sucking shit out of a porta-john.
What are you doing later tonight?

What are you doing later tonight?

Washing my legs and shaving my hair. :p

It isn't the same as rape but it isn't the same as sex either , is it? Sex is ( or should be ) an intimate bonding of two paople , whether for a lifetime or fifteen minutes. All the senses are involved. Rape is about violence and power. With pornography the observer is detatched and to a certain extent in control. I don't believe that it is anywhere near the equivelent of rape nor is it even neccessarily unhealthy but it does have some of the same characteristics.

legal prostitutionProstitution is legal, just not in some countries. We're not all American.

Prostitution is legal, just not in some countries. We're not all American.
Even some places in the united states *cough* vegas *cough*

Oh no, feminists. I hate feminists. They totally don't understand the men and women relations.

i laugh at them for thinking Porn is the same as rape, obviously they don't know what rape is then. Rape is the most horible crime you can think of and they want too accosiacte it with one of the biggest businesses in the world.
Please refrain from lumping me in with all the feminazis out there. I am a feminist, which is why I believe that a woman (or man) has the right to make money in any legal way that they can.
To those of you who persist in portraying porn stars as pathetic lost souls to be pitied: please give these women enough respect to assume that at least the majority of them have the intelligence to make their own decisions. These are not damsels in destress who need to be rescued from the big bad porn industry. They are not rape victims. Labelling them as such is an insult to actual rape victims and porn stars everywhere.

I've often wondered what the difference between pornography and prostitution was, but rape? No.

I've often wondered what the difference between pornography and prostitution was, but rape? No.

Why not? There's a logical link there.

Why not? There's a logical link there.
between porn and rape?

between porn and rape?

Yes, because if there is no defining line between porn and prostition, and prostitution and rape (as someone said earlier), there there is no defining line between porn and rape.

It isn't the same as rape but it isn't the same as sex either , is it? Sex is ( or should be ) an intimate bonding of two paople , whether for a lifetime or fifteen minutes. All the senses are involved. Rape is about violence and power. With pornography the observer is detatched and to a certain extent in control. I don't believe that it is anywhere near the equivelent of rape nor is it even neccessarily unhealthy but it does have some of the same characteristics.

It doesn't have any of the same characteristics. As you said Rape is about power and violence. As I said, porn is about fantasy and sex. You pretend to have that intimate bonding. They aren't even remotely related. The porn-watcher can select the porn but s/he has no more control than that. No more so than the control I have in selecting my partners. It's a ridiculous comparison at even the most base level.

Yes, because if there is no defining line between porn and prostition, and prostitution and rape (as someone said earlier), there there is no defining line between porn and rape.

You find it easier to discern between prostitiution and porn than rape and porn? In what world?

I love how you pretended at the beginning of the thread that you didn't agree with this position and now it's become abundantly clear that you do. Nice bait and switch.

Can you please explain how rape and porn is more closely related than porn and prostitution?

Yes, because if there is no defining line between porn and prostition, and prostitution and rape (as someone said earlier), there there is no defining line between porn and rape.
Sure there is ... prostitution is consentual rape is not pretty simple deviding line

Yes, because if there is no defining line between porn and prostition, and prostitution and rape (as someone said earlier), there there is no defining line between porn and rape.

That is faulty logic, by the same argument I can say that the President supports rape.

President is for private enterprise
private enterprise is for making money
postitution is making money
prostitution is rape

That is faulty logic, by the same argument I can say that the President supports rape.

President is for private enterprise
private enterprise is for making money
postitution is making money
prostitution is rape
Lol nice (was trying to find the actual logical fallacy but at work and did not have the time)

Why not? There's a logical link there.

I'm sorry I can't even find an ILLOGICAL link . . .

Yes, because if there is no defining line between porn and prostition, and prostitution and rape (as someone said earlier), there there is no defining line between porn and rape.

There is a dividing line between prostitution and rape and it's quite clear, that line is consent.

I've just finished my first year of a Creative writing and Media Studies degree, and one of my lecturers is really HOT on this subject. He (yes, he, not she) is a feminist, and seriously DOES believe that pornography is just the same as rape. Anyway, this is a subject that I feel (as a 19 year-oldmale) I should be interested in, (plus, the amount he was talking about it this year, I think it's gonna be part of the "test" as it were, next year).... so here's the question....what do you believe?

Poll coming (hehehe)

Edit: Please don't make this thread about religion, unless you have valid points.....moderatore WILL be informed if it goes OT

Actually, I think that pornography goes a long ways towards PREVENTING rape, as it gives some people access to something they want to see, but may not otherwise be able to see, for whatever reasons. If someone wants to see a naked woman and can't find any pictures of any, he may just grab the nearest woman and rip her clothes off.

If there is any harm in it, it's when people are forced to participate in the production of some pornographic event against their wills.

There is a dividing line between prostitution and rape and it's quite clear, that line is consent.
You sound just like me (read my post) lol

Sure there is ... prostitution is consentual rape is not pretty simple deviding line

Can't get any more obvious than that....

Though a "prostitute" does not necessary have to be "consentual"... In the right conditions it could be a form of sexual slavery...

However, to disclaim before the attempt is even uttered (which given this forum, is likely by someone, eventually).... You cannot logically equate the consentual act by one person, to that of a non-consentual act by another. As long as a person has consented into an act; and it is an act by them, upon themselves and another or others in consent; and this is a free society; you canot presume against their own will as free-peoples; to deny them their ability, and right to consent to such as they desire....

Can't get any more obvious than that....

Though a "prostitute" does not necessary have to be "consentual"... In the right conditions it could be a form of sexual slavery...

Of course, which is why the need for regulation.

There is a dividing line between prostitution and rape and it's quite clear, that line is consent.

"Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows"

If someone had schitzophrenia, and were having sex with the consent of one of the peronalities, then changes, and the other personality doesn't want to, this is counted as rape. Likewise, someone who has a mental illness in any way, that has sex with someone else, counts as having sex without their consent.....if you self-harm you have a mental illness. Porn stars often have to be harmed on screen/camera for the punters ...... therefore, the porn star is basically self-harming, and therefore has a mental illness, therefore any sex had is rape.

"Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows"

If someone had schitzophrenia, and were having sex with the consent of one of the peronalities, then changes, and the other personality doesn't want to, this is counted as rape. Likewise, someone who has a mental illness in any way, that has sex with someone else, counts as having sex without their consent.....if you self-harm you have a mental illness. Porn stars often have to be harmed on screen/camera for the punters ...... therefore, the porn star is basically self-harming, and therefore has a mental illness, therefore any sex had is rape.
Thank you doctor ... and what mental illness are you designating them to be a member of?

There is a dividing line between prostitution and rape and it's quite clear, that line is consent.

But some, if not most, prostitutes are forced into the "profession."

people should be able to get a permit for a brothel [sp], they should only be allowed in certain parts of cities, there should be health inspectors (to prevent the spread of STD's) and they should be taxed (i think it's legal in Las Vegas). that would be much better that a pimp smacking around his whores and forcing them to perform sexual favors for men.

"Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows"

If someone had schitzophrenia, and were having sex with the consent of one of the peronalities, then changes, and the other personality doesn't want to, this is counted as rape.

If you are going to discuss who does and does not have a mental disorder then use the term schitzophrenia corectly. A schitzophrenic does not have multiple personalitys, you are thinking of someone with Disassoitaive <may have spelled that incorectly as my spelling sucks) Identity Disorder (DID).

But some, if not most, prostitutes are forced into the "profession."

Because some are being forced it should be banned rather than regulationg it it killing those who force people into it?

But some, if not most, prostitutes are forced into the "profession."
How is it forced?

people should be able to get a permit for a brothel [sp], they should only be allowed in certain parts of cities, there should be health inspectors (to prevent the spread of STD's) and they should be taxed (i think it's legal in Las Vegas). that would be much better that a pimp smacking around his whores and forcing them to perform sexual favors for men.

Sounds like a plan. Actually, prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas proper, you have to go to the suburbs if that sort of thing interests you. (Recently returned from Vegas, and no, I did not engage any hookers, legally or otherwise.)

How is it forced?

Young girls are lured to secluded places where they are raped and drugged. Once they become drug dependent, the pimps can get them to do anything. It's happening right under your nose, by the way. Minneapolis is a prime "supplier" of prostitutes. Also, many of the girls are runaways, and feel that they have no other choice.

How is it forced?

what do you mean how is it forced? pimps beat up their hookers and threaten them into workingthe streats, then the pimp takes the money they earned.

There are always exceptions to everything, take a look at Germany, prostitutes there have health care and some are even in unions. You cannot generalize everything under one name. Prostitutes who are forced are not prostitutes, they are sex slaves.

what do you mean how is it forced? pimps beat up their hookers and threaten them into workingthe streats, then the pimp takes the money they earned.

Yes. There are very few prostitutes were are "self-employed." Most have pimps, and most pimps are abusive.

what do you mean how is it forced? pimps beat up their hookers and threaten them into workingthe streats, then the pimp takes the money they earned.
Thats a problem with the current setup not prostitution in and of itself

Well, this is a sticky issue. Pornography is (presumably) consensual on all fronts, but like rape, it is a form of taking sexual advantage of women. Rape, and most pornography, are created by and perpetuate a mentality in which women are sex objects, not worthy of respect or consideration of their feelings.

I can understand why some feminists equate pornography with rape, though that's extreme. But you have to think, there's a lot more male-targeted than female-targeted pornography. Unless you count certain kinds of romance novels, maybe that evens the scale a bit.

Thats a problem with the current setup not prostitution in and of itself

i agree, i think that prostitution should only be legal in brothels.

Well, this is a sticky issue. Pornography is (presumably) consensual on all fronts, but like rape, it is a form of taking sexual advantage of women. Rape, and most pornography, are created by and perpetuate a mentality in which women are sex objects, not worthy of respect or consideration of their feelings.

I can understand why some feminists equate pornography with rape, though that's extreme. But you have to think, there's a lot more male-targeted than female-targeted pornography. Unless you count certain kinds of romance novels, maybe that evens the scale a bit.

pornographers aren't worthy of respect or conseration. it they were they wouldn't be pornographers.

Well, this is a sticky issue. Pornography is (presumably) consensual on all fronts, but like rape, it is a form of taking sexual advantage of women. Rape, and most pornography, are created by and perpetuate a mentality in which women are sex objects, not worthy of respect or consideration of their feelings.

I can understand why some feminists equate pornography with rape, though that's extreme. But you have to think, there's a lot more male-targeted than female-targeted pornography. Unless you count certain kinds of romance novels, maybe that evens the scale a bit.

Not all that tricky.... Pornography; at its core is "prostitution" (that is sexual favors in exchange for payment) convyed over textual medium; and at present is expanded into other mediums (audio and video); those "Romance" novels, by definition, are pornography; as much as the imagry and audio use in other forms..... That being said; it's not "unless" you count those novels; by definition, and objective reality; you must to form a proper unbiased opinion.

There is no "tricky" aspect; unless you don't consider "consent" of the parties involved the core of the principle upon which to found the entire ethical construct. Each person is a free-agent of themselves... And is free to make their own choices; the only time this "freedom" is limited; is when is specifically acts to deny the right and liberty of another...

Rape is rape, because it lacks consent, by default; however, not all sexual intercourse is rape.... Consent is the core of the issue (NOT OBJECTIFICATION)

Prostitution, as an act of sexual slavery; whereby the one prostituted is not afforded the right to choose; is non-consentual, and therefore wrong; as it is an act by one (the "pimp") against the rights of the prostitute...

Prostitution, as an act of consent, in a free-market, via the choice of the one entertaining such; is not wrong, as there is no "wronged" party, and no damage upon the liberty of anyone.... Denial of her rights to choose to do so; however IS A DIRECT ATTACK UPON THE HIS/HER LIBERTY... As the third party; who has no claims, and no rights over the issue; has made the determination beforehand; that he/she is not in possession of her own body... And is directly akin to ENSLAVEMENT. The same occurs with pornography...

The clarifier in this is personal and individual consent by those involved:
Non-Consentual pornography, is as wrong as non-consentual sex (rape)...
Consentual Pornography, is as wrong as CONSENTUAL sex....
Non-Consentual pornography, is as wrong as non-consentual sex (rape)...
Consentual Pornography, is as wrong as consentual sex....

Anyone who denies a woman or man the right to engage in activities; and do with their own body; as they so desire... As long as not damaging upon the liberty of another... Does not believe people are free, does not believe in liberty, and wishes to enslave the entire population to their own choices... They do not care about consent... Even though it must be the core principle of interoperation in a free and libertine society...

I do not wish to split hairs here; but I must....

Either people are free to themselves; or they are not; there is no middle-ground.

If you believe in liberty; you will accept the right of others to make self-determination..... If you will not accept their right of self-determination; you do not believe in liberty... If you do not believe people should be free; this conversation is over... Simply because you are the polar opposite of what must constitute fair and just government.

Posted something realy honking long that I snipped.

Bravo/Brava (unsure which is apropriate from your use name)

Tekania - Exactly

. He (yes, he, not she) is a feminist,

god... can i just make this clear for you since your only starting with the woman studies classes... do you feel women should be reguarded equally in society ? (pay and promotion in the buisness field)?

if so

your a feminist... man or woman.

So dont comment as though this should be something shocking. Most men are feminists even if they dont identify themselves as one

But you have to think, there's a lot more male-targeted than female-targeted pornography. Unless you count certain kinds of romance novels, maybe that evens the scale a bit.

that is what we would call a myth... do you know what is the largest group who view pronos..

heres a hint... not men

its couples. Couples are the largest groups of who watch poronographies.

god... can i just make this clear for you since your only starting with the woman studies classes... do you feel women should be reguarded equally in society ? (pay and promotion in the buisness field)?

if so

your a feminist... man or woman.

So dont comment as though this should be something shocking. Most men are feminists even if they dont identify themselves as one

I know that - in this case though I meant a strict feminist, or whatever you call them....I've heard on this board, the term, Feminazi, used.

Yes. There are very few prostitutes were are "self-employed." Most have pimps, and most pimps are abusive.
In countries where prostitution is illegal - in countries where it is legal, most prostitutes are self employed, well payed, and in the business completely of their own volition.

In countries where prostitution is illegal - in countries where it is legal, most prostitutes are self employed, well payed, and in the business completely of their own volition.
That or in a brothel situation where they have a set registered employer and such

Why not? There's a logical link there.

Rape is a legal definition, and pornography is not part of the rape section unless it's an underage model.

I think the big question is, did the person give consent. If yes, then it's not rape. Minors, however, cannot legally give consent.

Rape is a legal definition, and pornography is not part of the rape section unless it's an underage model.

I think the big question is, did the person give consent. If yes, then it's not rape. Minors, however, cannot legally give consent.
Absolutely correct ... add to that the mentally handicapped and people under the influence of drugs or an excessive amount of alcohol.