NationStates Jolt Archive

Charities banned from Live8 concert (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050629.wnocharity0629/BNStory/Entertainment/).

Collecting food for the homeless and hungry is taking a back seat to poverty in Africa as organizers for Saturday's Live 8 concert ban charities from collecting donations at the event.

Organizers have said local fundraising could “dilute the focus” of the concerts, which includes encouraging the world's G8 leaders to eliminate the debt currently owed by African countries.

Goody bags handed to "free" Live8 performers (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=54219)

Live 8 performers are playing for free, but local organisers plan to shower the celebrities with a Hugo Boss duffel bag loaded with high-fashion trinkets valued at about $4,000

They'll also be able to add to their goodie bags with big-ticket items including Hugo Boss suits, valued at $1,000 to $1,310 each; XM satellite radios and subscriptions, $655; Gibson guitars, $2,600; Bertolucci watches, valued between $2,000 and $7,900; and other items.

In all, a celebrity could walk away with a bag of gifts worth as much as $15,700

Ehh... That's all I have to say.

this upsets me

this upsets me
You really thought it was going to do anything? Pfft.

Well the 15k is many thousands less than what the performer would oft' get so in a sense they are still donating their time cheap. But yeah Live8 is a sack of promotional crap.

Your points don't support your premise.

And are unimpressive in and of themselves.

You really thought it was going to do anything? Pfft.

Well the 15k is many thousands less than what the performer would oft' get so in a sense they are still donating their time cheap. But yeah Live8 is a sack of promotional crap.

I dunno... myabe i thought this time things would be better and we'd actually make a difference. Maybe I was wrong.

I always felt the concerts are only to make the celebs feel good about themselves. Real aid needs to come from governments that can really make a huge difference.

What the hell is Live 8 anyway? Isn't is supposed to be Live Aid? Or is that just something else that I'm thinking of..

What the hell is Live 8 anyway? Isn't is supposed to be Live Aid? Or is that just something else that I'm thinking of..

its just like live aid only its bigger and twenty years later. Live aid was campiagning to raise money for ethiopa. but this is to raise awareness of international poverty.

Guys

This is the biggest music event in televised history, and the most ambitious project ever undertaken on live television.

10 concerts worldwide.

All the artists performing for free.

Live 8 is not about raising money, it's about raising awareness and forcing the G8 leaders to do something about it.

Let's help Make Poverty History.

It's Live 8 now because it's being done to put pressure on the G8 leaders.

Yeah, OK, it's not completly pure. But if it makes the G8 leaders sit up and take notice, then that's what it's been aiming for. That is what matters. Yeah, you cynics will say that the G8 won't listen--and there's a part of me that agrees with you. But there is a slim chance that they MIGHT. So all I am going to do is to hope for that chance.

Besides, it was a fun concert. :)
(Even though I didn't actually go. It was fun on TV.)

~Oddardynia*

Guys

This is the biggest music event in televised history, and the most ambitious project ever undertaken on live television.

10 concerts worldwide.

All the artists performing for free.

Live 8 is not about raising money, it's about raising awareness and forcing the G8 leaders to do something about it.

Let's help Make Poverty History.

Well still I think its a sham really. Only with support of the governing bodies of the G8 nations will anything substantial be done. But I think status quo will be the deal for the near future. I just dont think people care enough really.

Yes of course, its a terrible sham. :rolleyes:

The goody bag thing isnt a good thing, however what a stupid thing to say its a sham! Its not about money for one, and even if it was, the texting for tickets must have raised millions! There are flaws in Live 8 but its a stupid thing to call it a sham.

Well still I think its a sham really. Only with support of the governing bodies of the G8 nations will anything substantial be done. But I think status quo will be the deal for the near future. I just dont think people care enough really.

Umm...did you miss the part about this concert's goal being to pressure the G8 nations to address this issue at the next summit? Thats why it is called Live 8 afterall.

Well still I think its a sham really. Only with support of the governing bodies of the G8 nations will anything substantial be done. But I think status quo will be the deal for the near future. I just dont think people care enough really.

So what exactly do you think we should do? Force revolution? Shoot anyone who doesnt do anything? Just because no one can make significant change doesnt mean we shouldnt do anything. This will be very beneficial in some ways.

make capitalism history

make capitalism history

I'd like to see this, but I doubt I ever will...

To be honest, I think many of the people on these forums couldn't name the G8 Nations if they tried (without Googling it) or why the G8 was formed, and what they do.

We raised money in 1985 for Africa in Live Aid, Band Aid, etc - and all we achieved was a short term solution to a much larger problem.

Now that Britain has Presidency of the G8 Nations for 6 months, and with the G8 Nations meeting in Gleneagles to discuss the plight of Africa and Climate Change, we have a real opportunity to make a difference.

The Live8 event around the world was not to raise money, or to get a short term solution again - but to FORCE the leaders of the G8 Nations to take stock and recognise the problems that Africa faces. I mean, for crying out loud, French Cows exist on more money per day than most African children do!

The money generated by the millions of text messages went to help pay for the venues around the world; Bill Gates himself funded a large majority of the event out of his own back pocket - he was there. And, if you research more deeply, you'll find that the Singers didn't get ALL the freebies you wrote about, but the ones they did get were provided FREE OF CHARGE by the companies who make them.

I think, I hope, that Tony Blair, George Bush and the other G8 Leaders will sit up now and realise that they cannot go on ignoring this problem in Africa for much longer.

Yay! Go MAKE POVERTY HISTORY band type thingys!


did you know that over 4 million people have joined the list?

Umm...did you miss the part about this concert's goal being to pressure the G8 nations to address this issue at the next summit? Thats why it is called Live 8 afterall.
If that was their goal, they're even more stupid than I thought. A bunch of affluent bored kids, most of whom don't even care what the concert is for as long as its free, can really strike the fear of God into the world leaders :rolleyes:

To be honest, I think many of the people on these forums couldn't name the G8 Nations if they tried (without Googling it) or why the G8 was formed, and what they do.

We raised money in 1985 for Africa in Live Aid, Band Aid, etc - and all we achieved was a short term solution to a much larger problem.

Now that Britain has Presidency of the G8 Nations for 6 months, and with the G8 Nations meeting in Gleneagles to discuss the plight of Africa and Climate Change, we have a real opportunity to make a difference.

The Live8 event around the world was not to raise money, or to get a short term solution again - but to FORCE the leaders of the G8 Nations to take stock and recognise the problems that Africa faces. I mean, for crying out loud, French Cows exist on more money per day than most African children do!

The money generated by the millions of text messages went to help pay for the venues around the world; Bill Gates himself funded a large majority of the event out of his own back pocket - he was there. And, if you research more deeply, you'll find that the Singers didn't get ALL the freebies you wrote about, but the ones they did get were provided FREE OF CHARGE by the companies who make them.

I think, I hope, that Tony Blair, George Bush and the other G8 Leaders will sit up now and realise that they cannot go on ignoring this problem in Africa for much longer.
I agree with Aligned Planets!!!!!!!!

I agree with Aligned Planets!!!!!!!!

As do I.

We're a lot more cynical these days than we were when "Live Aid" was a going concern-it's what happens when you have more than a decade of Artistic self-backslapping concealed as a charity event with the clever alternate use of "-aid" in the label.

People are also just plain less-gullible when presented with these things, and less easily swayed by appeals from entertainers. (Plus, there are other music-fests that appeal to niche markets now that don't include preaching. Ozzfest, Lollapalooza, etc. etc. so the -Aid and -8 concerts don't have as much impact...)

World leaders have also wised up to this, so don't expect Tony and George to run out and dump more money into the septic-hole that is Africa, because it's not going to happen. Entertainers had a lot more practical influence twenty years ago when there weren't almost-all-of-them doing it. Today, they're just another Lobbying group, and one that is incredibly predictable as to what they lobby for:

Rock Stars (Ted Nugent excepted) are going to lobby for Socialist/Leftist causes.

Country Singers will tend to lobby for Domestic relief in rural regions of the U.S., or take on smaller-scale problems like wifebeating.

Rappers- See "Rock Stars" with a focus on the Inner City.

Ted Nugent- Likes guns, Hates Taxes. Anyone that hangs out with Ted Nugent probably likes guns and hates taxes. (That's not going to be many "Rock Stars", or "Rappers").

Emo/Poppunk/green-day style shit: See: Rock Stars, only add suburban California whining.

Punk: Doesn't lobby because real Punk doesn't have the commercial muscle to, most Punk bands will favour the same causes as Rock Stars or Rappers, particularly the more extreme views of those causes. (European Moderates)

Heavy Metal: the second a Heavy Metal band picks up a political cause that isn't "Weird" even for a Rock Star, they become Rock Stars or Pop Stars (a subsection of the Rock Star that plays what can be nicely termed 'bubblegum', or 'soft rock'). At such a point, they have reached the peak of their careers. Heavy Metal bands can retain some street-cred by focusing on similar issues to those chosen by Rappers. Note: System of A Down may be sold in the "Heavy Metal" section, but they're pure Poppunk with better guitar work, and fall into the Rock Star catagory.

Alternative: Can be anywhere on the map, or off it. Consistently favours Rock Star and Pop-punk causes, though a few have shown tendencies toward Country or Rapper issues, spoiling the average.

NONE of the above demonstrate much understanding of life-outside-the-music biz, (including Ted Nugent), and none should be taken seriously when discussing serious issues without a demand of some evidence that they aren't merely parroting what the Publicist they hired told them they should say to be taken "Seereeusslee".

A bunch of affluent bored kids, most of whom don't even care what the concert is for as long as its free

I take it you didn't watch ANY of the acts around the world then. If you had, you would have seen that the majority (and the totality of those in Hyde Park) said something about Africa, about how We Are The Generation To Take A Stand, and about how we must force the Leaders of the G8 to see what WE, the people, want.

If you didn't, then that would explain your...interesting...views. I think it is wrong to say that most of the acts don't care about poverty, and not many of them were 'kids'.

Actually, Gordon Brown has already pledged that Africa is going to see a 25% increase in the amount of Aid it receives from Britain alone, as you would have seen if you had been watching it on the BBC.

That is as a result of Geldof and Live8.

Aligned Planets-- I think The Holy Womble meant the people coming to the concert.
I don't think that the concert-goers don't care, though. There's a terrible stereotype that young people couldn't be bothered about the state of the world today--that caring doesn't come in even a small bit until you are middle aged.
I'm 13. I care. I care a lot.

~Oddardynia*

I take it you didn't watch ANY of the acts around the world then. If you had, you would have seen that the majority (and the totality of those in Hyde Park) said something about Africa, about how We Are The Generation To Take A Stand, and about how we must force the Leaders of the G8 to see what WE, the people, want.

If you didn't, then that would explain your...interesting...views. I think it is wrong to say that most of the acts don't care about poverty, and not many of them were 'kids'.

A good percentage went to Africa to see for themselves what it was like aswel

I'm 17, I give up 8 hours of my own free time to work two shifts a week at my local Oxfam shop, to do my own small part to help aid those less fortunate in Africa.

Why should our place of birth determine whether we live or die?

Aligned Planets-- I think The Holy Womble meant the people coming to the concert.
I don't think that the concert-goers don't care, though. There's a terrible stereotype that young people couldn't be bothered about the state of the world today--that caring doesn't come in even a small bit until you are middle aged.
I'm 13. I care. I care a lot.

~Oddardynia*

So who DO you think cares about Africa because it seems like you have contradicted yourself

I honestly don't give a shit about the rock start at Live8 - they can do whatever they please.

It's the people who put their names on the petition, the people who are marching to Edinburgh and the people who went to watch it that matter. They are the ones with the message to the politicians.

I'm 17, I give up 8 hours of my own free time to work two shifts a week at my local Oxfam shop, to do my own small part to help aid those less fortunate in Africa.
I wasn't saying that young people DON'T care, I was saying that a lot of people THINK we don't. I think it's great that you're doing your bit.

Why should our place of birth determine whether we live or die?
No reason at all.

I take it you didn't watch ANY of the acts around the world then. If you had, you would have seen that the majority (and the totality of those in Hyde Park) said something about Africa, about how We Are The Generation To Take A Stand, and about how we must force the Leaders of the G8 to see what WE, the people, want.

If you didn't, then that would explain your...interesting...views. I think it is wrong to say that most of the acts don't care about poverty, and not many of them were 'kids'.
Slogan waving is supposed to be a proof of something now?

They are not "the generation to take a stand". They are the generation that forgot where the money comes from. How else can one explain the idiotic demand for writing off the African debt? Does no one realize that if their debt is written off once, they will never ever be able to get loans again- simply because no one will trust them anymore to ever repay their debts?

:rolleyes: So who DO you think cares about Africa because it seems like you have contradicted yourself
I think the concert goers care. And the rock stars.
See my last post for pointing out that young people not caring is only a STEREOTYPE.

people like us are talking... mission accomplished
next what are you going to do... hope you can sleep with your choice

I think the concert goers care. And the rock stars.
See my last post for pointing out that young people not caring is only a STEREOTYPE.

A stereotype that still fits the majority I'm afraid

Madonna expressing her opinion on Live8 during the concert (http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050702/i/r4117710361.jpg?x=380&y=290&sig=AC5g7MSbNlnw8WICUQn_1w--)

:p

Fits the majority maybe. But one thing I know is this:
It doesn't matter if you are in the minority. You can make a difference if only you are the LOUD minority.
Noise will hide even numbers. :)

Actually, Gordon Brown has already pledged that Africa is going to see a 25% increase in the amount of Aid it receives from Britain alone, as you would have seen if you had been watching it on the BBC.

That is as a result of Geldof and Live8.

but is that the result of Geldof, or of Gordon Brown? What were his positions on it before Live8 was announced? what were the positions of his party-mates in Parlaiment before? How long is it to the next election? That's the problem, see-Geldof and Bono can claim to be effective, but by the same token, those claims could be written off as fortunate timing (Africa's been int he news a lot in the last two years), or strategic timing. Africa's like this orbiting sattelite that passes close to the Earth every few years politically. It becomes fashionable to want to do something about it, we see a bunch of Celebs and Politicos ranting, singing, chanting, and making prounouncements... then, it quietly floats away for the next few years on a tide of more current news/fashions/trends as the Trendy kids write it off as haviing "Done their bit" and "Contributed to solving this crisis".

Until the next time it comes into the sphere of consciousness of another generation of Trendy Kids.

Slogan waving is supposed to be a proof of something now?

They are not "the generation to take a stand". They are the generation that forgot where the money comes from. How else can one explain the idiotic demand for writing off the African debt? Does no one realize that if their debt is written off once, they will never ever be able to get loans again- simply because no one will trust them anymore to ever repay their debts?

So do you have another suggestion on how we should help the people in Africa? Perhaps we should just sit back and do nothing because it's just a bit too complicated to get involved? Although Live 8 had a really simple message, which obviously would be more complicated to put into practice in reality. The main point seemed to be that all those people around the world were giving their endorsement to really try and help those much worse off in Africa, this gives the G8 governments a mandate to govern on this issue! Although most things in life do come back to money, it was important for all those people to take a stand... let the government sort out the financial matters - that wasn't what Live 8 was for, Live 8 raised awareness all around the globe. This issue will no longer be ignored. That's important. The people who took part were important. You shouldn't degrade them by insinuating that they're foolish.

I'd like to ask you cynics out there a question.
Isn't it really depressing, thinking that this will never do the slightest bit of good?
Yes, I know it's not terribly likely that the polititians will do anything. But they might--and it's a lot more pleasent to hope for the best than to hope for the worst.

Slogan waving is supposed to be a proof of something now?

They are not "the generation to take a stand". They are the generation that forgot where the money comes from. How else can one explain the idiotic demand for writing off the African debt? Does no one realize that if their debt is written off once, they will never ever be able to get loans again- simply because no one will trust them anymore to ever repay their debts?

Idiotic Indeed

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1651460,00.html

So idiotic that it started happening last month

but is that the result of Geldof, or of Gordon Brown? What were his positions on it before Live8 was announced? what were the positions of his party-mates in Parlaiment before? How long is it to the next election? That's the problem, see-Geldof and Bono can claim to be effective, but by the same token, those claims could be written off as fortunate timing (Africa's been int he news a lot in the last two years), or strategic timing. Africa's like this orbiting sattelite that passes close to the Earth every few years politically. It becomes fashionable to want to do something about it, we see a bunch of Celebs and Politicos ranting, singing, chanting, and making prounouncements... then, it quietly floats away for the next few years on a tide of more current news/fashions/trends as the Trendy kids write it off as haviing "Done their bit" and "Contributed to solving this crisis".

Until the next time it comes into the sphere of consciousness of another generation of Trendy Kids.

Of course most people know that Gordon Brown and many other Labour MP's were behind this movement, however this doesn't negate the actions of Live 8. Live 8 on its own would not have necessarily achieved anything but used at the right time i.e. when Africa had been in the press a lot and when the government were strongly behind the ideas, makes Live 8 a powerful tool. I'm sure the timing was chosen specifically because this is a prime time that a difference can be made. Also the idea of Live 8 was to show ongoing support for the plight of Africa not just a quick fund raiser like Live Aid, obviously how far this will succeed we are yet to find out but please don't write off the supporters yet.

I'd like to ask you cynics out there a question.
Isn't it really depressing, thinking that this will never do the slightest bit of good?
Yes, I know it's not terribly likely that the polititians will do anything. But they might--and it's a lot more pleasent to hope for the best than to hope for the worst.

Comes with the territory, when you study politics, your bound to be cynical

So do you have another suggestion on how we should help the people in Africa?
The obvious one- liberalization of economy and letting the investors in. Africa has the cheapest labor in the world. In terms of economic development, its a huge asset. They could attract untold trillions of dollars, technologies and eventually elevate themselves to the same level of prosperity as the "Asian tigers" like South Korea and Singapore.

As for the debt- putting the payments on hold for a limited time period could make sense, but writing it off completely undermines the economic credibility of African states forever. No one will ever make any kind of deal with a country that can borrow lots of money and then just whine until the debt is written off.

Idiotic Indeed

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1651460,00.html

So idiotic that it started happening last month
Yep. Yet again the politicians chose what looks good on TV over what works on the ground.

As for the debt- putting the payments on hold for a limited time period could make sense, but writing it off completely undermines the economic credibility of African states forever. No one will ever make any kind of deal with a country that can borrow lots of money and then just whine until the debt is written off.

I dont see why not. In the US this type of thing happens all the time in the private sector. Individuals and corporations file for bankruptcy, which allows them to write off their debt. It hurts their chances of getting a loan for some time, but their chances were already terrible to begin with if they were in a position where they felt they had to file for bankruptcy. At least once you file for bankruptcy you are in a better position to begin rebuilding your credit. I dont see why it would be different for a nation.

I'd like to ask you cynics out there a question.
Isn't it really depressing, thinking that this will never do the slightest bit of good?
Yes, I know it's not terribly likely that the polititians will do anything. But they might--and it's a lot more pleasent to hope for the best than to hope for the worst.
You're thirteen, you've probably never had to deal with trying to take care of a Junkie who doesn't want to kick.

Africa's like a drug-addict, the more aid you send, the more aid they need, and they aren't trying to kick that habit, either-look at Zimbabwe, for example. Less than five years ago, it was one of the few going concerns economically on the continent, and had real potential for making it out of the third-world hole status and having some prosperity. They used to be able to feed their own people with a nice, saleable surplus that brought in a reasonable amount of capital to make improvements (like roads and hospitals, flood control systems, electricity...)
Guess what? Zimbabwe, in two years, has gone from mildly prosperous to a basket-case... not because they had a crop failure, or the markets dried up, or outside competition, but because their President and his cronies decided now was the time to loot the countryside and punish their political opponents.

That's how the bulk of the African continent functions on a Daily basis. You can buy a man in Sudan for less than the price of good seats at Ozzfest.
"Buy" as in "Slavery", and the big famine in Ethiopia? that was local tactics-the damn army burned the farmers out and started the famine as a guerilla-suppression tactic.

Live Aid hit when I was a kid, and i admit, I was taken in by the first one, and the second, and Farm-aid, and the rest... until I realized one day that these shows were doing exactly jack-and-shit beyond making guys that tool around in Limousines feel like they're being Charitable between bouts of snorting cocaine.
(Two grand an ounce at the time.)

You know, if these arteests were serious, they'd do something with more real substance than demanding that I, as a taxpayer, help finance Africa's dysfunctional societies-I'd be hella impressed if Bono pledged and contracted say, 15% of his pre-tax royalties (retroactive to 1983) to African relief- I'd be impressed, and I'd take his claims of concern a lot more seriously. I know Baptist parishioners who pay about that percentage to Charity yearly-and they make around 25,000 a year compared to the Millions U2's lead-singer has racked up every single year since they burst onto the American scene.

Live8 wants to get Governments to send money-governments get money by threat-of-violence directed at citizens. (If you don't believe, try not paying.)
Most of those citizens don't make in a year what Geldof and Bono do in a day. It's one thing to pay our domestic class of professional parasites in exchange for being left alone, and get shoddy roads, late mail delivery, sex-predators released early and put up nearby to make room for potheads, boondoggle projects and the threat of having your house bulldozed because a private entity knew which city, state, or Federal hands to grease-but having that money sent out-of the country to no effect? NO. If I'm going to be extorted into paying for a shoddy service, I want to still get as much result for each dollar stolen from me as I can get, because I know who I can trust to take care of my family if I get hurt on the job-NOBODY.

Hving my life-energy sucked away and then having what meagre compensation I get for that experience (which I'm lucky to have-there's a homeless shelter within three blocks full of those that don't) taken, then tossed down a bottomless pit with no hope of return is simply too much.
Thus, I have become cynical. Unless you can play sports REALLY well, or have a face or voice that can draw big $$$ to you, you'll be in my shoes when you get as old as me, if not similar shoes. You'll hav to decide whether or not to believe in the warm and fuzzy ideals, or deal with the cold and harsh reality of life in the REAL world, wher e you have to choose who gets your voluntary help, and where you have to experience having something you need to live reduced to pay for someone else's guilty conscience.

The good thing about Live8 is that it really does show that people care. The only problem is that people partly care because they feel terribly guilty - in a way, the Live8 concert helps relieve this - we can be SEEN to be doing something about it, and it's all going to be ok. Really what we need are more people busting their guts to work in Oxfam shops until some kind of stable solution is reached.

I'm not saying sit back and do nothing - I'm saying the opposite. Cancelling third world debt will not directly help the people starving and dying of Aids in Africa, because most of the money poured into it is swept up by the people in charge and never gets down the where it is most needed. The WaBenzi need to be overthrown for governmental aid to really be effective. Much as I hate Christian Missionaries and many of the reasons behind why they do things, my friends who are out missionising are making a difference.

*Sigh* Don't mind me, I don't really know where all this post is going, I must be slightly senile. It's just so frustrating that the only things we can do are ultimately useless until major change happens, which will probably mean even more bloodshed, and that those things we do do are bandwagons jumped on by preening tossers

In the time Cadillac Gage took to type that pile of rubbish at least 20 african children died of malnutrion or curable diseases.

Why should children be dying in africa today because 20-30 years ago Western governments gave bad loans to bad leaders in order to bolster their support in the cold war?

The point of Live 8 was to put pressure on the G8 leaders to reduce african debt and free up trade. But the fact is that 7 of the G8 leaders have already agreed to most of this. It is George Bush, who is happy spending millions of dollars daily on bringing "democracy" to other nations, who we need to convince, and the American people, who in a survey last week believed that they already gave 10% of their GDP to aid africa when the real figure is well below 1% and half of what most other western countries give, who need to be convinced so that they can convince Bush.

In the time Cadillac Gage took to type that pile of rubbish at least 20 african children died of malnutrion or curable diseases.

Though it is a sad state of affairs, it hardly answers CGs points.

Why should children be dying in africa today because 20-30 years ago Western governments gave bad loans to bad leaders in order to bolster their support in the cold war?

They shouldn't.

But I doubt debt relief and increased aid will help the children that much. It helps the oligarchs far more than everyone else. Africa is one of those problems that cannot be solved just by throwing money at it. Serious change is needed over a longer period of time. I doubt if many in the west try and attempt it though.

The point of Live 8 was to put pressure on the G8 leaders to reduce african debt and free up trade.

Are you talking about Free Trade or Trade Justice here?

But the fact is that 7 of the G8 leaders have already agreed to most of this.

So the CAP will be a thing the past soon?

The obvious one- liberalization of economy and letting the investors in. Africa has the cheapest labor in the world. In terms of economic development, its a huge asset. They could attract untold trillions of dollars, technologies and eventually elevate themselves to the same level of prosperity as the "Asian tigers" like South Korea and Singapore.

As for the debt- putting the payments on hold for a limited time period could make sense, but writing it off completely undermines the economic credibility of African states forever. No one will ever make any kind of deal with a country that can borrow lots of money and then just whine until the debt is written off.

If it was that obvious wouldn't someone have already done it?
Also I disagree with people being unwilling to make deals with African States if their debt is written off. Generally it seems people want to help the African States, and as has been shown by the huge support it has received people won't be willing to sit back and watch thousands die needlessly anymore. Sometimes compassion has to come into play as well as economics. And as for 'whining', there are thousands of people dying everyday, they're not borrowing money for luxuries, it's a life and death situation! Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.

Guys

This is the biggest music event in televised history, and the most ambitious project ever undertaken on live television.

10 concerts worldwide.

All the artists performing for free.

Live 8 is not about raising money, it's about raising awareness and forcing the G8 leaders to do something about it.

Let's help Make Poverty History.

Just like U2 who lives in Ireland where they don't tax entertainers and uses these charity events to boost record sales?

Guys

This is the biggest music event in televised history, and the most ambitious project ever undertaken on live television.

10 concerts worldwide.

All the artists performing for free.

Live 8 is not about raising money, it's about raising awareness and forcing the G8 leaders to do something about it.

Let's help Make Poverty History.

What have you got a sticker jammed up your ass?

Why should children be dying in africa today because 20-30 years ago Western governments gave bad loans to bad leaders in order to bolster their support in the cold war?

And if the Western government wouldn't give those loans, African starvation would be far worse than it is now.

"You loaned us money. We stole it. Now we are in debt, and it's NOT FAIR!"

Hving my life-energy sucked away and then having what meagre compensation I get for that experience (which I'm lucky to have-there's a homeless shelter within three blocks full of those that don't) taken, then tossed down a bottomless pit with no hope of return is simply too much.

It's nice to know there's a homeless shelter isn't it, and perhaps even a soup kitchen down the road so you don't starve to death. Not everyone is so lucky. You may be worse off than other people but you are still far better off than many. If everyone had such a selfish attitude then nothing would ever be done. Obviously life isn't fair, but there's a moral feeling that if you can be, you should be, morally responsible for others. No one deserves to watch all their family starve to death. Just because there are some corrupt governments that don't want the best for their people, doesn't mean that the people don't deserve a chance. The governments should be punished not the people.

If it was that obvious wouldn't someone have already done it?
Ahh but you see, it is obvious, but not popular. It requires that the African states do their part, and it requires that capitalism be given a free hand in Africa. It's so much more convenient to go around with a hat collecting pennies for starving children, you know.


Also I disagree with people being unwilling to make deals with African States if their debt is written off. Generally it seems people want to help the African States, and as has been shown by the huge support it has received people won't be willing to sit back and watch thousands die needlessly anymore. Sometimes compassion has to come into play as well as economics.
Oh people will still donate a few cents, alright. But you cannot build a working economy based on charity. I am talking about business people, the ones who produce wealth.


And as for 'whining', there are thousands of people dying everyday, they're not borrowing money for luxuries, it's a life and death situation! Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.
I always choose my words. I'm a writer, and I am careful about the choice of language. What they do is exactly whining, emotional manipulation in order to squeeze some tears out of you and make you open your wallet. I am yet to hear an African leader admitting the failure of his own politics rather than trying to shift the blame.

And if the Western government wouldn't give those loans, African starvation would be far worse than it is now.

"You loaned us money. We stole it. Now we are in debt, and it's NOT FAIR!"

The people dying didn't 'steal' our money. I think it's most of the world that have decided it's not fair rather than just the African people. We can afford to lose some money in order for a nation to survive.

And if the Western government wouldn't give those loans, African starvation would be far worse than it is now.

"You loaned us money. We stole it. Now we are in debt, and it's NOT FAIR!"

I don't understand the line in bold. Perhaps a clarification of your point is needed?

My solution:Remove all the corrupt leaders, and have the G8 pick new leaders for a temprary time, until the people of the countries can decide their own leaders.

I don't understand the line in bold. Perhaps a clarification of your point is needed?

My solution:Remove all the corrupt leaders, and have the G8 pick new leaders for a temprary time, until the people of the countries can decide their own leaders.

your solution would not be possible even if we wanted to do so

Yay! Go MAKE POVERTY HISTORY band type thingys!


did you know that over 4 million people have joined the list?

Did you know they're made in Chinese sweatshops (http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12464)?

Cadillac-Gage, Holy Womble, <3 you both. I'm glad some people aside from myself are actually aware of how dire this entire thing is; at the absolute best it's a complete misunderstanding of economics.

Did you know they're made in Chinese sweatshops (http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12464)?

Cadillac-Gage, Holy Womble, <3 you both. I'm glad some people aside from myself are actually aware of how dire this entire thing is; at the absolute best it's a complete misunderstanding of economics.

Don't you libertarians always argue that government action to help the disadvantaged will be replaced by charity? That the wealthier will voluntarily help the poorer?

And yet you criticize private charity efforts. And you oppose wealthier nations helping poorer nations. :rolleyes:

this was the greatest idea what a difference you should all be shot think about if you were in poverty dieing :sniper:

And if the Western government wouldn't give those loans, African starvation would be far worse than it is now.

"You loaned us money. We stole it. Now we are in debt, and it's NOT FAIR!"


One:
Westen Nations raped the lands of Africa for resorces during the good old times of empires.

Two:
When we left them they were screwed being pulled from Trible to well Urban, they needed money to rebuild and we left them with nothing.

Three:
We did loan the money so they could rebuild, but we being westen prats siad "ya we will give you money to fix your nation after we screwed it up for you, but your going to have to give us about *stupid amount of Intrest* on it"

Four:
wipe out the dept and cut aid by half. Boost the Infastruture so that Africa can make its own money and guess what......the Africa states who really want to work out of porvaty can the others well...Africa can deal with it then.

Point four would be for the ideal world, also Of Corse Local Charities were banned from Collecting money. Live8 was an awance event and trying to prove to G8 that billions of people around the world want them to do something and cut the dept (not ever going to happen is it, were westeners and love our money).
Also the Live8 Event didnt give the goodie bags it was the sponsors nothing to do with Bob, if Nokia and the likes want to give something to the Proformers fine but it wasnt the Live8 event that gave the dam stuff.

Maby if people did a little background work (say all the way back to the 1800s) we will all learn something knew. Im not saying im right and im not saying what ive said is right, just what i heared from people.

Yes of course, its a terrible sham. :rolleyes:

The goody bag thing isnt a good thing, however what a stupid thing to say its a sham! Its not about money for one, and even if it was, the texting for tickets must have raised millions! There are flaws in Live 8 but its a stupid thing to call it a sham.

Try again. The 3 million pounds from the text message was donated to the Prince's Trust fund

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/live%208%20donate%203%20million%20to%20princes%20trust

.

:upyours: I think that live 8 is a brilliant idea and it's even better that they weren't fund-raising!!! What a better way to get the 8 most important men in the world to take notice than something that can ultimately lift up the whole world. For people in poverty it is a life-saver and for everyone els a brilliant atmosphere and thrilling event which will undoubtedly never happen again!!

One:
Westen Nations raped the lands of Africa for resorces during the good old times of empires.

Two:
When we left them they were screwed being pulled from Trible to well Urban, they needed money to rebuild and we left them with nothing.

Three:
We did loan the money so they could rebuild, but we being westen prats siad "ya we will give you money to fix your nation after we screwed it up for you, but your going to have to give us about *stupid amount of Intrest* on it"

Four:
wipe out the dept and cut aid by half. Boost the Infastruture so that Africa can make its own money and guess what......the Africa states who really want to work out of porvaty can the others well...Africa can deal with it then.

Point four would be for the ideal world, also Of Corse Local Charities were banned from Collecting money. Live8 was an awance event and trying to prove to G8 that billions of people around the world want them to do something and cut the dept (not ever going to happen is it, were westeners and love our money).
Also the Live8 Event didnt give the goodie bags it was the sponsors nothing to do with Bob, if Nokia and the likes want to give something to the Proformers fine but it wasnt the Live8 event that gave the dam stuff.

Maby if people did a little background work (say all the way back to the 1800s) we will all learn something knew. Im not saying im right and im not saying what ive said is right, just what i heared from people.

The only thing imperalism did for Africa was build roads, railways, cities, dams,
farms, legal systems etc... We are not the enemy, states will do there best to survive its evolution, it is unfair but thats life.

The only thing imperalism did for Africa was build roads, railways, cities, dams,
farms, legal systems etc....

Which fucked over there country.

Seriously, HOW?! Please back up that stament. How can schools and roads fuck up a country.

Unfortunately I missed it all because I was at my cousins wedding yesterday.

Try again. The 3 million pounds from the text message was donated to the Prince's Trust fund

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/live%208%20donate%203%20million%20to%20princes%20trust

.

To be fair they had to cancel their gig so its fair enough really

Seriously, HOW?! Please back up that stament. How can schools and roads fuck up a country.

I think the writer may have meant that whilst the African States were a part of an empire then improvements were definately made, however once the imperial power left they fell into chaos. In my opinion it was the moral duty of the imperial power to prepare the countries well enough so that they could survive and continue to develop once they had left, instead of securing themselves concessions on goods from those countries.

To be fair they had to cancel their gig so its fair enough really

Moreover, as the article makes clear, it is only the first $3 million (1.86 million GBP) that will go to The Prince's Trust.

Of course, The Prince's Trust is itself a worthy charity -- not a trust fund for Prince William. ;)

Moreover, as the article makes clear, it is only the first $3 million (1.86 million GBP) that will go to The Prince's Trust.

Of course, The Prince's Trust is itself a worthy charity -- not a trust fund for Prince William. ;)

Agreed, I hope people do know what the Princes trust is ;)

Don't you libertarians always argue that government action to help the disadvantaged will be replaced by charity? That the wealthier will voluntarily help the poorer?

And yet you criticize private charity efforts. And you oppose wealthier nations helping poorer nations. :rolleyes:

If the charity was EFFECTIVE and KNEW WHAT TO DO then I'd agree, but it looks like a good couple of decades of charity have done sweet F'A for Africa. What I say would help Africa is free trade and no protectionism, charity doesn't come into it. And yes, maybe this will 'raise awareness' in those preliterate shortsighted fools who know nothing of the world beyond their own borders we call the G8, but I suspect - given that I've heard more about how great Pink Floyd were in the last day than I will hear in the next week about poverty - that a bunch of whiny brats who only care about some free music aren't going to be raising said awareness. And even if they do it's only going to be about how little grounding they have in basic political and economic theories.

And the best way to deal with it, against my general philosophy though it would be, would be new imperialism.

To be honest, I think many of the people on these forums couldn't name the G8 Nations if they tried (without Googling it) or why the G8 was formed, and what they do.

.


I'm wondering why that is relavant to anything?

come to thing of it, ,,,its not.

One thing I'll mention here, as a Canadian I was upset at the remarks I've been hearing.

I think people around the world look at the vast size of our country and think its a large populated rich country.

Our 31 or so million people donate with large hearts.

And if there is extra money to be given, I,as most Canadains would be happy to give.

I just hope our government takes care of our own first.

If the charity was EFFECTIVE and KNEW WHAT TO DO then I'd agree, but it looks like a good couple of decades of charity have done sweet F'A for Africa. What I say would help Africa is free trade and no protectionism, charity doesn't come into it. And yes, maybe this will 'raise awareness' in those preliterate shortsighted fools who know nothing of the world beyond their own borders we call the G8, but I suspect - given that I've heard more about how great Pink Floyd were in the last day than I will hear in the next week about poverty - that a bunch of whiny brats who only care about some free music aren't going to be raising said awareness. And even if they do it's only going to be about how little grounding they have in basic political and economic theories.

And the best way to deal with it, against my general philosophy though it would be, would be new imperialism.

Billions upon billions of people across the planet -- and you dismiss them all as whiny brats and fools.

Methinks you do not have a monopoly on wisdom or awareness. I'm rather sure of it.

If that was their goal, they're even more stupid than I thought. A bunch of affluent bored kids, most of whom don't even care what the concert is for as long as its free, can really strike the fear of God into the world leaders :rolleyes:
And you are contributing exactly what to the eradication of world poverty?

Oh, NOTHING?

If all you can do is condemn those who are giving freely of their time and effort to draw awareness to this noble cause then shame on you.

I would call you Scrooge, but in the end, even he realized the power of love.

Try again. The 3 million pounds from the text message was donated to the Prince's Trust fund

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/live%208%20donate%203%20million%20to%20princes%20trust

.
To get the venue.

So I've been pulled in, fooled into beliving Live 8 is a scam, let put a few things into perspective here.

Over a MILLION People in 8 conerts

FREE tickets (Except for Texting costs)

BILLIONS watching on TV

And you say this 'won't' reaise awareness, the fact is every one of those people who watched can't have missed the slogans the videos and the messages, every one of those people will have understood why it was happening.

If thats dosn't raise awareness what will? And if Mr BUsh and Mr Blair don't do somthing that at least we tried and if it saves 1 life then it's worth it.

If that was their goal, they're even more stupid than I thought. A bunch of affluent bored kids, most of whom don't even care what the concert is for as long as its free, can really strike the fear of God into the world leaders :rolleyes:

The aim of Live 8 was to raise awareness...and if half, or even a handful of those "affluent bored kids" who went in to that concert came out knowing what it was for - then surely it was a success, because now those newly educated kids can add their voices to the masses and maybe the G8 will hear what people like Bob Geldof, and those who marched, and those who signed the petition are saying.

Don't stereotype people, don't assume that everyone is like you - I bet there were fewer "affluent bored kids" there than you think.

Hving my life-energy sucked away and then having what meagre compensation I get for that experience (which I'm lucky to have-there's a homeless shelter within three blocks full of those that don't) taken, then tossed down a bottomless pit with no hope of return is simply too much.
Thus, I have become cynical. Unless you can play sports REALLY well, or have a face or voice that can draw big $$$ to you, you'll be in my shoes when you get as old as me, if not similar shoes. You'll hav to decide whether or not to believe in the warm and fuzzy ideals, or deal with the cold and harsh reality of life in the REAL world, wher e you have to choose who gets your voluntary help, and where you have to experience having something you need to live reduced to pay for someone else's guilty conscience.
Why do all of your posts turn into irrelevant right-wing rants about taxes?

Okay just something. Sorry if someone already brought this up but I can't stand to wait for the two pages to load and have my brother moan at me for Lag.

Whatever country Africa is in debt to, they are keeping them in debt for a reason. Almost every country that has money has gone off and bought a load of weapons with it.
So to prevent the Africans getting weapons and turning out whole world into a gun-crazed globe, the governments of other countries choose to keep the African government spending it on guns and the like.

Of course, this may not be the truth but it is my personal opinion. I would like to see the continent rid of disease and suffering, bet there is always a risk that the goverment might want to get a "Means of Defence".


And yes before you start asking, I did watch the live 8. But that's because I wanted to see Pink Floyd back together again.

I was listening and someone from Africa spoke about the need for their countries to become self sufficient. That is exactly what is needed.

We all know this money will go to warlords and not the people who need it. :confused:

So I've been pulled in, fooled into beliving Live 8 is a scam, let put a few things into perspective here.

Over a MILLION People in 8 conerts

FREE tickets (Except for Texting costs)

BILLIONS watching on TV

And you say this 'won't' reaise awareness, the fact is every one of those people who watched can't have missed the slogans the videos and the messages, every one of those people will have understood why it was happening.

If thats dosn't raise awareness what will? And if Mr BUsh and Mr Blair don't do somthing that at least we tried and if it saves 1 life then it's worth it.

Awareness won't change the way corrupt gov'ts spend the money and it won't stop warlords from intercepting aid. The money does not go where it needs to be, whether or not the entire world is aware.

I was listening and someone from Africa spoke about the need for their countries to become self sufficient. That is exactly what is needed.

We all know this money will go to warlords and not the people who need it. :confused:

We don't all know this. You and a bunch of other cynics sat on your asses in front of computer screens gulping down your mountain dew in your air conditioned homes assume it, and because of that assumption you're going to sit back and make dumb comments while 30,000 people die every day. On top of that you are going to knock people who are trying to do something about the situation.

If any of you Live 8 cynics are christians I say shame on you. Go back to your bibles and try and remember what it was that Jesus tried to teach us.

Awareness won't change the way corrupt gov'ts spend the money and it won't stop warlords from intercepting aid. The money does not go where it needs to be, whether or not the entire world is aware.
No it won't, but what else can we do, we can't let it go on like this, every 3 seconds a child in Africa dies. EVERY 3 SECONDS! Thats whay to much.

Wake up, you stupid hippies! Having a concert IS NOT going to change anything! Anyone else remember the "Concert for Bangladesh"? So far as I know, it's still not a great place to live. If Bono really wanted to help, maybe he could trade in one of his limos for grain and send it to Ethiopia.

Wake up, you stupid hippies! Having a concert IS NOT going to change anything! Anyone else remember the "Concert for Bangladesh"? So far as I know, it's still not a great place to live. If Bono really wanted to help, maybe he could trade in one of his limos for grain and send it to Ethiopia.

Just what we need. Another idiot who knows nothing about Live 8 making a pointless comment.

Yes of course, its a terrible sham. :rolleyes:

The goody bag thing isnt a good thing, however what a stupid thing to say its a sham! Its not about money for one, and even if it was, the texting for tickets must have raised millions! There are flaws in Live 8 but its a stupid thing to call it a sham.


But the things is that the celebs should n't have been getting anything from it since they said they would work for free... and well with that bag its not free. i still think some of the proceeds should have gone to some of the poorer Aferican countries so that they can try and help themselves.

Just what we need. Another idiot who knows nothing about Live 8 making a pointless comment.


My "point" is that simply having a concert isn't going to change a damn thing. If you really want to help these people, get off your ass and DO something about it. I can sit here and hope/pray/meditate till the cows come home and it won't change anything.

Let's help Make Poverty History.
By wearing wristbands made by Nike, one of the most exploitative corps out there, which thrives on poverty? give me a break.

My "point" is that simply having a concert isn't going to change a damn thing. If you really want to help these people, get off your ass and DO something about it. I can sit here and hope/pray/meditate till the cows come home and it won't change anything.

So, like I said, you know nothing about Live 8. No-one claimed having a concert was going to change anything apart from raising awareness.

The point was to raise awareness. Allegedly 5 billion people watched the concerts (although I doubt that number), so awareness has been raised. The last time I saw a figure, which was yesterday evening, some 3 million people had signed the petition to be presented at the G8 meeting, so awareness has been raised. Some 100,000 people marched in Edinburgh yesterday, so awareness has been raised. We're discussing it here, so awareness has been raised.

So, like I said, you know nothing about Live 8. No-one claimed having a concert was going to change anything apart from raising awareness.

It's all about putting pressure on our governments to do what we want done. We want them to work it out, and the numbers show it.

So, like I said, you know nothing about Live 8. No-one claimed having a concert was going to change anything apart from raising awareness.

The point was to raise awareness. Allegedly 5 billion people watched the concerts (although I doubt that number), so awareness has been raised. The last time I saw a figure, which was yesterday evening, some 3 million people had signed the petition to be presented at the G8 meeting, so awareness has been raised. Some 100,000 people marched in Edinburgh yesterday, so awareness has been raised. We're discussing it here, so awareness has been raised.

And raising awareness does what exactly? People suddenly aren't starving because we're "aware"? And just who didn't know before this that poverty/starvation are major issues in third world countries? I still say this is a bunch of pointless lip service. If these celebrities really wanted to help, they'd sell a couple of limos, buy some grain, load it on their private jets and fly it to the people that need it. But oh yeah, that would take some actual effort instead of just jamming for half an hour.

Whatever. Like I said, you don't get it.

Whatever. Like I said, you don't get it.

Like I said, I don't think you do either.

Side Note: Who can argue with such a stunning rebuttal as "Whatever". You might as well just say, "Ok, you're right, because I can't think of anything intelligent to say."

Yeah. We'll just make do with Limo-Aid. Brilliant thinking there. How has no-one ever thought of that before? I bet Bob Geldof and Bono are sat in their limousines right now kicking themselves that they didn't think of it first.

they could have charged like 2 bucks a person and made so much money. the kids in africa don't want awareness-they want food! :)

they could have charged like 2 bucks a person and made so much money. the kids in africa don't want awareness-they want food! :)

The idea to raise awareness if achieved will make a hell of a lot more difference. Also the idea was not to come up with a short term solution but a long term one.

Yep, we really needed to raise "awareness" of Africa. For decades we've been laboring under false assumptions that it wasn't actually a cesspool of poverty, corruption, war and genocide. O wait, everyone already knew that it was.

This concert is nothing more than a cheap attempt by singers to hijack the July 4th weekend and go "Look at me!" Difference actually made in G8 debt held by Africa=Zero. Just a reaffirmation of my point that liberals value intentions over results. If they really cared about African suffering, they'd try to raise international awareness of the wide spread Islamic genocides in North Africa (not just Sudan). If they really cared they'd demand accountability from corrupt African leaders who've siphoned off BILLIONS of aid dollars leaving next to nothing for their suffering people. If they really cared, they'd DONATE THEIR OWN DAMN MONEY!

dude, Pink Floyd is back. That's all that matters.

How about we stop caring about Africa? Im personally more worried about america. Why should we be giving them money for nothing, so they can do much worse with it?

Time to re-read the "How can you expect to be taken seriously" lyrics...

Yep, we really needed to raise "awareness" of Africa. For decades we've been laboring under false assumptions that it wasn't actually a cesspool of poverty, corruption, war and genocide. O wait, everyone already knew that it was.

This concert is nothing more than a cheap attempt by singers to hijack the July 4th weekend and go "Look at me!" Difference actually made in G8 debt held by Africa=Zero. Just a reaffirmation of my point that liberals value intentions over results. If they really cared about African suffering, they'd try to raise international awareness of the wide spread Islamic genocides in North Africa (not just Sudan). If they really cared they'd demand accountability from corrupt African leaders who've siphoned off BILLIONS of aid dollars leaving next to nothing for their suffering people. If they really cared, they'd DONATE THEIR OWN DAMN MONEY!

HAHAHA
That is easily the funniest thing Ive ever heard
Seriously that was a good joke

You really thought it was going to do anything? Pfft.

Well the 15k is many thousands less than what the performer would oft' get so in a sense they are still donating their time cheap. But yeah Live8 is a sack of promotional crap.
I thought it was just to raise awareness?! Leave it alone it was good to see celebrities and all those people caring and singing.at the end of the british one i saw the were these kids on stage singing from a choir in africa. they are survivers so mariah carey sang with them. this one poor kid was terrified to be in front of all those people, he said hello in african tho. the really were so many people in hye park, it was amazing. why bother complaining about it, why can't we just accept things can't be perfect. i enjoyed it,and if you didn't thats your problem.

In all, a celebrity could walk away with a bag of gifts worth as much as $15,700

For having to perform in front of 600,000 people...I'd be pretty pissed too...

it did raise awareness. people now know what the problem is, and now they all care so they'll march to edinborough. it's down to the world leaders to make a difference now.
www.live8live.com

One thing is definite: If this so-called "Live 8" concert is really dedicated to the crisis in Africa and poverty around the world, then this "gift bag" wouldn't have been given in this concert at all.

So far we've got one person say that it was, from anti-Live aid websites, I'm not convinced.

In all honesty, I'm sure the event was quite successful, seeing as George W is the biggest Coldplay fan. Ever.

One thing is definite: If this so-called "Live 8" concert is really dedicated to the crisis in Africa and poverty around the world, then this "gift bag" wouldn't have been given in this concert at all.

Jeez, some people can never stop complaining.

Relatively, these artists did something nearly for free. Most of them will probably get 1-2k worth of goodies. Hardly anything to them, or africa.

Think of it like this. You go to a birthday party, and you bring a gift. At the birthday party, you have fun, you get to eat, and you get a goodie bag.

OMFWTFBBQ!?!?!? ITS HIS BIRTHDAY! WHY THE FUCK DO YOU GET TO EAT, OR GET A GOODIE BAG? EVERYONE SHOULD ONLY BRING HIM FOOD, AND GOODIE BAGS, AND GET HIM BETTER PRESENTS. THOUGH I DONT EVEN LIKE THAT GUY, AND WE SHOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS PARTY.

Yeah, I heard about this. That's why I didn't even see Live8 on TV. I was like, "Screw that." (As I said in another thread and was ignored. :p )

Yeah, I heard about this. That's why I didn't even see Live8 on TV. I was like, "Screw that." (As I said in another thread and was ignored. :p )
I didn't watch Live 8 because I was pretty sure the music would suck, so instead I flipped between CNN and Fox...taking note that I never saw Live 8 mentioned once on Fox, and that they spent about 5 hours talking about Shasta Groene...and CNN had a special about Africa and gave a real good impression of exactly the problems going on in Africa...

Yeah, I heard about this. That's why I didn't even see Live8 on TV. I was like, "Screw that." (As I said in another thread and was ignored. :p )
Screw you, don't you know every day 30,000 children die fom extreme poverty every day? if that was your country, you'd care. no more excuses. we can't ignore it, because right now africa needs our help. the whole point of live 8 was to raise awareness about the issue before we really act together. and you didn't even watch it. it was damn good, lots of good musicans playing. what were you watching, and how is it more important than 30,000 kids lives?! the is nothing good on tv on saturdays anyway.

Screw you, don't you know every day 30,000 children die fom extreme poverty every day? if that was your country, you'd care. no more excuses. we can't ignore it, because right now africa needs our help. the whole point of live 8 was to raise awareness about the issue before we really act together. and you didn't even watch it. it was damn good, lots of good musicans playing. what were you watching, and how is it more important than 30,000 kids lives?! the is nothing good on tv on saturdays anyway.
Poverty will always exist. People will always die. Live8 was a bunch of rich and famous celebrities trying to make themselves look good and getting expensive gift bags in the process. If the folks who ran the show really cared about poverty and the dying children, they would've at least used some of the profits to help the situation, but they didn't. Don't lash out because you participated in the crapfest. It's not your fault. A lot of other people bought into it, too.

I didn't watch Live 8 because I was pretty sure the music would suck, so instead I flipped between CNN and Fox...taking note that I never saw Live 8 mentioned once on Fox, and that they spent about 5 hours talking about Shasta Groene...and CNN had a special about Africa and gave a real good impression of exactly the problems going on in Africa...
Am I suprised by fox not covering it, they wouldn't want upset the right wingers would they, and as for the music, the music was good, very good. If you've never seen Live Aid then you proably wouldn't understand why I cried when i saw Geldof Bring on that girl when her introduced Maradonna.

Poverty will always exist. People will always die. Live8 was a bunch of rich and famous celebrities trying to make themselves look good and getting expensive gift bags in the process. If the folks who ran the show really cared about poverty and the dying children, they would've at least used some of the profits to help the situation, but they didn't. Don't lash out because you participated in the crapfest. It's not your fault. A lot of other people bought into it, too.
The fact that Bono and Bob Geldof have been raising millions for years to help africa and have already got some of the debt down dosn't matter to you?

Am I suprised by fox not covering it, they wouldn't want upset the right wingers would they, and as for the music, the music was good, very good. If you've never seen Live Aid then you proably wouldn't understand why I cried when i saw Geldof Bring on that girl when her introduced Maradonna.
Hmm, no, I don't get any of that...but the point is...I could listen to music I enjoy listening to music, and watch real news (not Fox's stupid 24-hour Shasta Groene coverage)..

Screw you, don't you know every day 30,000 children die fom extreme poverty every day? if that was your country, you'd care. no more excuses. we can't ignore it, because right now africa needs our help. the whole point of live 8 was to raise awareness about the issue before we really act together. and you didn't even watch it. it was damn good, lots of good musicans playing. what were you watching, and how is it more important than 30,000 kids lives?! the is nothing good on tv on saturdays anyway.

But its not our countries(respective). They screwed up, and they have to pay the price. They werent doing as well as europeans before they came, I dont see why they magically would have been doing well now? We dont owe them anything, its their job to help themselves. If they dont, its on them.

The fact that Bono and Bob Geldof have been raising millions for years to help africa and have already got some of the debt down dosn't matter to you?
Of course not. None of it matters to me.

Hmm, no, I don't get any of that...but the point is...I could listen to music I enjoy listening to music, and watch real news (not Fox's stupid 24-hour Shasta Groene coverage)..

I know this is off topic but who is Shasta Groene?

But its not our countries(respective). They screwed up, and they have to pay the price. They werent doing as well as europeans before they came, I dont see why they magically would have been doing well now? We dont owe them anything, its their job to help themselves. If they dont, its on them.
No, we screwed up, we went in there, colonised them and then pulled out leaving one hell of a mess. Now we have to fix it.

I know this is off topic but who is Shasta Groene?
After her parents and her older brother were murdered (and it turns out, they were meth addicts), she and her other brother went and hung out with a lvl 3 sexual offender for 6 weeks...who was violating his parole...

Poverty will always exist. People will always die. Live8 was a bunch of rich and famous celebrities trying to make themselves look good and getting expensive gift bags in the process. If the folks who ran the show really cared about poverty and the dying children, they would've at least used some of the profits to help the situation, but they didn't. Don't lash out because you participated in the crapfest. It's not your fault. A lot of other people bought into it, too.
don't lash out because you didn't participate. do you really think you've made a bigger difference not participatng? By the way, it did help raise awareness. It's sad some people just don't care. it was an amazing night. it is your fault. a lot of other people have no heart, too. oh get a life. by not watching your ignoring the issues. live 8 was celebrities and people showing they cared. you didn't so your the one with a problem, not them.

Of course not. None of it matters to me.
Selfish Bastard.

Selfish Bastard.
Amen to that, are you going to endinbourgh?

No, we screwed up, we went in there, colonised them and then pulled out leaving one hell of a mess. Now we have to fix it.

No, we dont. Again, they werent doing very well before the europeans came. Almost nothing has ever come out of africa(aka technology, etc). As sad as it is, all people are not created equal. An american life is more worthy than a nigerian one, because we are more productive. Its a waste to throw money at them so we can have less, they can have slightly more, and all of us be worse-off.

live 8 is to bring notice to the g8 summit and leaders, not nessarcerly the money

Most of them live off a dollar a day. You'd have to give a lot for them to have anything more than us...

Selfish Bastard.
da aswell

(1)don't lash out because you didn't participate. (2)do you really think you've made a bigger difference not participatng? (3)By the way, it did help raise awareness. (4)It's sad some people just don't care. (5)it was an amazing night. (6)it is your fault. (7)a lot of other people have no heart, too. oh get a life. by not watching your ignoring the issues. (8)live 8 was celebrities and people showing they cared. you didn't so your the one with a problem, not them.
You're jumping to conclusions.

(1) I'm not lashing out.
(2) I never said I thought I was making a bigger difference.
(3) Okay, it did that. That's not enough.
(4) I agree.
(5) No doubt, it was fun. Fun doesn't feed the hungry.
(6) What is?
(7) I don't believe I ever said anything to the contrary.
(8) Actually, it was celebrities trying to give the appearance of caring. There's a difference.

No, we dont. Again, they werent doing very well before the europeans came. Almost nothing has ever come out of africa(aka technology, etc). As sad as it is, all people are not created equal. An american life is more worthy than a nigerian one, because we are more productive. Its a waste to throw money at them so we can have less, they can have slightly more, and all of us be worse-off.
Other than human beings themselves. They could have been great, indeed look at Ancencent Egypt, how much did they invent, we went in, took the resources and got out again.

Of course not. None of it matters to me.
I have to reply with the often said, "What if you were born in that position?"

Most of the artists at Live 8 didn't care very much about helping Africa. What matters is that these concerts have brought the message into millions of peoples houses around the world. A lot of critics are saying that the concert is not dealing with the root of the problem, the corrupt governments. Bob Geldof knows that the governments are the problem and that problem isn't going to be fixed quickly.

What I've got to say is, at least they are fucking trying!!

Selfish Bastard.
Yes, because name-calling solves all the problems in the world! :p

Most of them live off a dollar a day. You'd have to give a lot for them to have anything more than us...
give 2 dollars a day, you could double the quality of one of there lives.

I have to reply with the often said, "What if you were born in that position?"

Most of the artists at Live 8 didn't care very much about helping Africa. What matters is that these concerts have brought the message into millions of peoples houses around the world. A lot of critics are saying that the concert is not dealing with the root of the problem, the corrupt governments. Bob Geldof knows that the governments are the problem and that problem isn't going to be fixed quickly.

What I've got to say is, at least they are fucking trying!!
Amen to that.

Poverty will always exist. People will always die. Live8 was a bunch of rich and famous celebrities trying to make themselves look good and getting expensive gift bags in the process. If the folks who ran the show really cared about poverty and the dying children, they would've at least used some of the profits to help the situation, but they didn't. Don't lash out because you participated in the crapfest. It's not your fault. A lot of other people bought into it, too.

If you knew about Live8 the idea wasn't to make profits. They did that at Live Aid and did not have enough effect - although, as the woman showed, it had an impact.

The idea was to show G8 who exactly is the boss and what a majority of people - rich and poor -want. Live8 was campaining for justice not charity - that includes trade, ending the power of the TNCs and the corruption that they bring and even climate change (leads to desertification). That will make change.

I have to reply with the often said, "What if you were born in that position?"

Most of the artists at Live 8 didn't care very much about helping Africa. What matters is that these concerts have brought the message into millions of peoples houses around the world. A lot of critics are saying that the concert is not dealing with the root of the problem, the corrupt governments. Bob Geldof knows that the governments are the problem and that problem isn't going to be fixed quickly.

What I've got to say is, at least they are fucking trying!!
If I was, I would probably care. This is, however, irrelevant, because, as it is, I don't care.

I have to reply with the often said, "What if you were born in that position?"

Most of the artists at Live 8 didn't care very much about helping Africa. What matters is that these concerts have brought the message into millions of peoples houses around the world. A lot of critics are saying that the concert is not dealing with the root of the problem, the corrupt governments. Bob Geldof knows that the governments are the problem and that problem isn't going to be fixed quickly.

What I've got to say is, at least they are fucking trying!!

Couldn't put it better myself.

If I was, I would probably care. This is, however, irrelevant, because, as it is, I don't care.

If it happened in your town, you'd fucking care about it.

If I was, I would probably care. This is, however, irrelevant, because, as it is, I don't care.

So you're saying that when you're in need you want the world to help you and if you aren't, screw everybody else? I'd say that's a pretty good system you got going there...

So you're saying that when you're in need you want the world to help you and if you aren't, screw everybody else? I'd say that's a pretty good system you got going there...
I'm not saying I'm not all for helping others, and I'm not saying the only person I care about is myself, (unfortunately, that just wouldn't be true) but I think the wrong issues are approached and addressed in entirely the wrong way.

Eh...I don't think Live8 was executed that well, personally. I think Mr. Geldof lives in his own world, where he believes that this concert will permanently raise awareness for world poverty. I really think that in a few weeks, maybe months, everyone will have forgotten about the show and the message it was attempting to bring. If they had charged what...10-20 dollars a person, think of all the relief money they could have made. I realize it's not supposed to be about opening your wallets, but it's just a little too idealistic I think.

If it happened in your town, you'd fucking care about it.
:rolleyes: Have I said I wouldn't?

I'm not saying I'm not all for helping others, and I'm not saying the only person I care about is myself, (unfortunately, that just wouldn't be true) but I think the wrong issues are approached and addressed in entirely the wrong way.

I retract what I said before, I admit that I misinterpretated what you were saying. It just sounded like you were a selfish bastard, probably because I skipped the last 7 pages of the thread.

I agree that poverty will always exist and people will always die. But this type of mass poverty can be fixed. Even though I don't think the G8 or most of the musicians really care about relieving poverty the public pressure can be used in our favour. I would rather the G8 actually care about the cause but even debt relief for good appearances is better than nothing. As I said before, at least something is happening.

On a different topic, I missed Bill Gates going on but I'm glad that he did make an appearance. He is one the rare 'billionaires that cares.' Who else has given 8 billion dollars to help people? Almost half to global health and almost all of that to 3rd world countries.

:rolleyes: Have I said I wouldn't?

I apologize if i was rude (which i was).

I'm not saying I'm not all for helping others, and I'm not saying the only person I care about is myself, (unfortunately, that just wouldn't be true) but I think the wrong issues are approached and addressed in entirely the wrong way.

I don't think that there is a right or wrong way on this issue. Since it's so complex, unfortunately there's going to be problems whatever you do. If at first you don't succeed try, try again. At least Geldof's trying.

I apologize if i was rude

I apologize if i was rude (which i was).



I don't think that there is a right or wrong way on this issue. Since it's so complex, unfortunately there's going to be problems whatever you do. If at first you don't succeed try, try again. At least Geldof's trying.

I apologize if i was rude
No problem.

lets imagine you hadn't been born into your family, you were born into a poor one. one month after you were born your mother dies from aids. your dad is a farmer at the local village, and is to busy to take care of you. he works long hours and is poorly paid because of no one buying his fair trade goods. so your grandparents take care of you. you are now only 3 months old. You have a small meal each day, and then, at 3 and half months old, your grandma gets aids and dies later on, when you are one. your life carries on, worse. then, at only one years two months old, you are one of the 30,000 children to die today. you never got to have a proper life. you died of hunger, as you and your dad lived in a slum, diseased and starving.
the 'you' in this can be anyone on this board who is unlucky.

Make Poverty History!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Why do all of your posts turn into irrelevant right-wing rants about taxes?

Because...


It's all about putting pressure on our governments to do what we want done. We want them to work it out, and the numbers show it.

and


Actually, Gordon Brown has already pledged that Africa is going to see a 25% increase in the amount of Aid it receives from Britain alone, as you would have seen if you had been watching it on the BBC.

That is as a result of Geldof and Live8.


Where's the aid-money coming from?


I contribute to charity, I've always contributed a portion of my income to charity-when I've had it.

But...

I don't fool myself into believing that African Charity is helping the average African. It's not. Most of that money goes to buy aid, which is then put into a warehouse and used as a means of control by the same people that have squandered African resources for decades to keep themselves in power. Africa is one of the richest resource-bases on the planet. Diamonds, Gold, Oil, Industrial metals, you name it, it's exported. Rubber too. The sheer value of the exports coming out of Africa right now could put the majority of that continent's residents into decent housing, provide education, roads, finance health-care, etc etc etc.
Those loans could have been paid off twenty years ago.

So... What's the problem?

Answer: the problem is, that money goes to (instead of infrastructural improvement) financing the lifestyle and paranoias of African "Leaders" and their gangs of thugs as they make things steadily worse.

Coming from a background most of you would call "White Trash", I've seen this pattern before-people who decide they don't want to work milking the kindness of strangers and the largesse of the state while living a life well-beyond their means. I'm talking jacked-up 4x4's in front of run-down trailers and families with absent fathers-because the Welfare gets cut if momma gets married, which cuts into bubba-the-boyfriend's beer money.

You can't help someone who's unwilling to help themselves. There are countries in Africa that are trying-we ought to send the aid there, and let the ones that have decided to be Bubba's 'fambly' starve until they change things on their own.

[before you call me a racist-Bubba's White, okay? the Inner City doesn't have an exclusive claim to the poisonous parts of gangsta-style culture-the only difference is the cosmetic]

Be Real, okay? That's all I want: be real, give if you actually believe it will do something to really help. But prep yourself for disappointment when they choose the thug that abuses them over a better life, and don't make people who don't want to support that thug's lifestyle indirectly pay for your guilty conscience.

-Everyknowledge- you really need to get a life. The reason I called you a selfish bastard {and i meant it} was because you don't seem to care about the whole deal about poverty, yet you come on here and arque celebrities are just doing it for attention. And all the people who showed up are? the were people way at the back who probaly couldn't even see their nearest screen very well but still came and showed they cared. did you? no. you didn't even watch, because you truly are a stupid, jealous {of the celebs} bastard. and you are guilty of this. lets imagine you hadn't been born into your family, you were born into a poor one. one month after you were born your mother dies from aids. your dad is a farmer at the local village, and is to busy to take care of you. he works long hours and is poorly paid because of no one buying his fair trade goods. so your grandparents take care of you. you are now only 3 months old. You have a small meal each day, and then, at 3 and half months old, your grandma gets aids and dies later on, when you are one. your life carries on, worse. then, at only one years two months old, you are one of the 30,000 children to die today. you never got to have a proper life. you died of hunger, as you and your dad lived in a slum, diseased and starving.
(1) Do you really think name-calling is going to solve the issue?
(2) At least I am honest that I don't actually care. If you truly cared, you wouldn't be wasting your time throwing insults at me; you'd instead be working on ways to try to save the world.
(3) A hypothetical scenario means nothing to me. I play the game of life with the cards I am actually dealt, not what I might have had if this or that were different.

lets imagine you hadn't been born into your family, you were born into a poor one. one month after you were born your mother dies from aids. your dad is a farmer at the local village, and is to busy to take care of you. he works long hours and is poorly paid because of no one buying his fair trade goods. so your grandparents take care of you. you are now only 3 months old. You have a small meal each day, and then, at 3 and half months old, your grandma gets aids and dies later on, when you are one. your life carries on, worse. then, at only one years two months old, you are one of the 30,000 children to die today. you never got to have a proper life. you died of hunger, as you and your dad lived in a slum, diseased and starving.
the 'you' in this can be anyone on this board who is unlucky.

And to think, if you were born into this situation, people could have a massive concert to help you out, but refrain from raising any money to help the situation, instead claiming it will make people "aware" of your suffering.

My "point" is that simply having a concert isn't going to change a damn thing. If you really want to help these people, get off your ass and DO something about it. I can sit here and hope/pray/meditate till the cows come home and it won't change anything.

It was doing something about it. It was trying to get Blair, Bush, Chirac, Bertusconi, Martin and the other G8 leaders to do something about it. They are the ones with the power. We just have to make 'em do it.

It was doing something about it. It was trying to get Blair, Bush, Chirac, Bertusconi, Martin and the other G8 leaders to do something about it. They are the ones with the power. We just have to make 'em do it.
Because they're the sitting presidents of the Coldplay Fanclub...

And to think, if you were born into this situation, people could have a massive concert to help you out, but refrain from raising any money to help the situation, instead claiming it will make people "aware" of your suffering.
"We don't want your money, just your awareness. If you can't afford a lot of awareness, just a simple, 'Oh!' will do." ~Best Week Ever.

Because they're the sitting presidents of the Coldplay Fanclub...

Bah-doom tish..

You're jumping to conclusions.

(1) I'm not lashing out.
(2) I never said I thought I was making a bigger difference.
(3) Okay, it did that. That's not enough.
(4) I agree.
(5) No doubt, it was fun. Fun doesn't feed the hungry.
(6) What is?
(7) I don't believe I ever said anything to the contrary.
(8) Actually, it was celebrities trying to give the appearance of caring. There's a difference.
Oh Please. Do you seriously think snapping back stupid comments is going to help you make your point?
LOO-SER!

Oh Please. Do you seriously think snapping back stupid comments is going to help you make your point?
LOO-SER!
I believe the color actually helped the argument.

I believe the color actually helped the argument.
Oh.

Mm. Tough crowd.

Jeez, some people can never stop complaining.
Some people may not like the reality, but that's what it is. Depends on how you define "complaining", in many times it can actually raise interesting points. The concert itself is definately not without merit, and that we must raise awareness in regards to the poverty and misery around the world; however, the way that it was conducted and presented does pose some questions. It's too quick and rough of an assumption that some "complains forever" just because they've pointed out and highlighted some of the concerns that many does not want to face.

Oh Please. Do you seriously think snapping back stupid comments is going to help you make your point?
LOO-SER!
Why do you insist on name-calling repeatedly? Is that really going to help your cause?

Why do you insist on name-calling repeatedly? Is that really going to help your cause?
it depends on what his cause is. It'll help him get forumbanned for flaming.

Make Poverty History!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
Where trying mate.

What the hell is Live 8 anyway? Isn't is supposed to be Live Aid? Or is that just something else that I'm thinking of..

no, jackass, theres eight concerts in 8 different countrys, and this concert did alot, there were over 2 million people at london and philidelphia. thats alot of people to reach about poverty in africa, considering we live in america, and noone cares about africa. so who cares we didnt raise millions of dollors to throw away to africans. 2 million people shows thier support and listened to alot of music.

no, jackass, theres eight concerts in 8 different countrys, and this concert did alot, there were over 2 million people at london and philidelphia. thats alot of people to reach about poverty in africa, considering we live in america, and noone cares about africa. so who cares we didnt raise millions of dollors to throw away to africans. 2 million people shows thier support and listened to alot of music.

Actually it was called live8 because of the G8 summit in Scotland, there were more than 8 venues I believe

The aim of Live 8 was to raise awareness...and if half, or even a handful of those "affluent bored kids" who went in to that concert came out knowing what it was for - then surely it was a success, because now those newly educated kids can add their voices to the masses and maybe the G8 will hear what people like Bob Geldof, and those who marched, and those who signed the petition are saying.

Don't stereotype people, don't assume that everyone is like you - I bet there were fewer "affluent bored kids" there than you think.

I agree. I went to the live8 in London, (I only sent one text), and had a brilliant time. I didn't see any "affluent bored kids" either...must have been somewhere else!

I agree. I went to the live8 in London, (I only sent one text), and had a brilliant time. I didn't see any "affluent bored kids" either...must have been somewhere else!
As did I, not on my text though a freind won 2 tickets so we went down.

Quite plainly, saying that people with good intentions* are going about it the wrong way makes you pure evil. Of course, decrying the useless sham that is Live 8 in favor of sensible policies and actual [i]action[i] means you absolutely must not care about alleviating poverty at all. :rolleyes:

* Though I'd argue most of these intentions focus on alleviating a little guilt and on giving the appearance of caring.

After her parents and her older brother were murdered (and it turns out, they were meth addicts), she and her other brother went and hung out with a lvl 3 sexual offender for 6 weeks...who was violating his parole...

hmmm I now know the true meaning of ignorance is bliss

i'm sorry if i hurt your feelings but it was what i thought after you were litrally saying you don't care 30,000 kids die each day. but when you think about it, no one did a day a go. it feels like people now know the problem. when i carried on i was angry at the comments you said. you can't be forced to watch it, and when i did yesterday the music gave me a headache. it didn't really change the poverty in africa, it just proved what we want the world leaders to do. the was only a few simple facs of the problems that didn't really give people the full picture, apart from the shocking pictures of these bony people in africa desperate for food, pretty much the only footage shown. that had an effect, but it wasn't good enough. still, its not worth doing the whole thing again. i'm sorry i overacted, when i'm angry i'm not a nice person. truce?

hmmm I now know the true meaning of ignorance is bliss
Why is it that the first person to say anything about that post isn't someone appreciating the humor and instead someone I must explain the humor too...


Basically, I understated the brevity of the situation because I feel that Fox news greatly overstated the situation...or spent too much time on it anyway. After all, that post came when someone asked who Shasta Groene was after I complained that Fox spent the entire day talking about Shasta Groene while CNN had a special about Africa (because I didn't want to watch the crappy bands playing for G8).

I live in Edinburgh, and I can assure you, the unwanted, unwashed and disruptive bastards flooding through my city are the usual bunch of haven't-a-clue assholes wearing Che Guevera t-shirts and waving "Bush is a Terrorist!" placards they always are. Oh, and some hardcore anarchists and muslim radicals are here to cause trouble too. Yeah, making my way to work is just a blast.

Geldof is an idiot (idiot) if he thinks a bunch of people marching along Princes Street and going to music concerts is going to FORCE THE WORLD LEADERS TO TAKE ACTION!!!!11

I mean seriously, you think the Japanese Prime Minister is going to be crapping himself and signing cheques because people in London with vague notions that Africans being poor sucks are watching has-beens singing? You'd think they had them under siege or something the way they go on.

And frankly more aid for Africa is a bad thing. That continent's problem is its despotic leadership, not the fact that we aren't throwing enough money at it. We continue to give them free money all we're doing is buying Robert Mugabe (the "African Hitler", as he calls himself. Psh, you wish, Bob) more limos and doing the job of looking after their citizens for them so that they aren't encouraged to improve things themselves. Africa isn't just a big landmass full of disadvantaged poor people, you know. It consists of nations, with governments. What are they doing to Make Poverty History?

Bugger all.

Why is it that the first person to say anything about that post isn't someone appreciating the humor and instead someone I must explain the humor too...


Basically, I understated the brevity of the situation because I feel that Fox news greatly overstated the situation...or spent too much time on it anyway. After all, that post came when someone asked who Shasta Groene was after I complained that Fox spent the entire day talking about Shasta Groene while CNN had a special about Africa (because I didn't want to watch the crappy bands playing for G8).

I asked you who this person was and thats why I said "ignorance is bliss" because it sounds like a horrible situation

Oh sorry, I didn't realize you were the one who asked in the first place.

Anyway, yea...so the girl and the sex offender walked into a Dennys at 2am...

Oh sorry, I didn't realize you were the one who asked in the first place.

Anyway, yea...so the girl and the sex offender walked into a Dennys at 2am...

no worries :) . I know I asked a while ago, strange that fox would rather cover that

Not really that strange. How many Fox viewers are really that interested in seeing American money going to Africa?

Not really that strange. How many Fox viewers are really that interested in seeing American money going to Africa?

Cynical as it is I can't offer an argument against it

don't any americans care? {about poverty in africa}
we know what we need to do to stop poverty, so why arn't they doing it now?
-we have the medicines
-we have food
-we can build homes and wells
-we can make poverty history

-said by lenny henry

And you are contributing exactly what to the eradication of world poverty?

Oh, NOTHING?

If all you can do is condemn those who are giving freely of their time and effort to draw awareness to this noble cause then shame on you.

I would call you Scrooge, but in the end, even he realized the power of love.
Oh please.

I do nothing? Suppose. But I do no harm, and compared to the Live8 morons, it is already a damn good start. They are actively destroying any hope for Africa to ever normalize their economic situation.

You see, my friend, I was born in Russia. I actually was on the receiving end of humanitarian aid during the early 90-s. I've seen how it works, I've seen the effects of the aid on the ground. Guess what: the people who are supposed to get it mostly do not receive squat. The aid ends up on the market, where it is being sold to people for outrageous prices. The money goes two ways- to the corrupt officials who are in charge of aid distribution and to the organized crime controlling markets. The more aid is given, the more crime and corruption it funds. The people don't get anything. Often, they don't even know.

I don't donate to large famous charities and highly advertized causes, ever. I have my priorities, and I am doing my best to make sure my money does not end up funding the problem rather than its solution. The only organization I donate to at the moment is a small all-volunteer local group promoting blood and organ donation. I worked with them, I know their whole hierarchy, and I know very little of their budget ever goes to salaries or fancy advertising campaigns. I don't suffer from illusions of grandeur and I don't think I should get involved in larger-than-life campaigns to end poverty- especially in such misguided, anti-common sense enterprises like Live8.

Noble causes be damned. Want to help someone? First, learn to do no harm.

Charities banned from Live8 concert (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050629.wnocharity0629/BNStory/Entertainment/).

Collecting food for the homeless and hungry is taking a back seat to poverty in Africa as organizers for Saturday's Live 8 concert ban charities from collecting donations at the event.

Organizers have said local fundraising could “dilute the focus” of the concerts, which includes encouraging the world's G8 leaders to eliminate the debt currently owed by African countries.

Goody bags handed to "free" Live8 performers (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=54219)

Live 8 performers are playing for free, but local organisers plan to shower the celebrities with a Hugo Boss duffel bag loaded with high-fashion trinkets valued at about $4,000

They'll also be able to add to their goodie bags with big-ticket items including Hugo Boss suits, valued at $1,000 to $1,310 each; XM satellite radios and subscriptions, $655; Gibson guitars, $2,600; Bertolucci watches, valued between $2,000 and $7,900; and other items.

In all, a celebrity could walk away with a bag of gifts worth as much as $15,700
OH MY GOSHH 15 THOSAND DOLLARS ARE U SERIOSU!!!!!1

EDIT: I HOPE THEY ARENT FEEDING THEM OR PAYEING FOR THERE HOTELS

Israel must really be ruined by the $3 billion it gets from the US each year.

I don't donate to large famous charities and highly advertized causes, ever. I have my priorities, and I am doing my best to make sure my money does not end up funding the problem rather than its solution. The only organization I donate to at the moment is a small all-volunteer local group promoting blood and organ donation. I worked with them, I know their whole hierarchy, and I know very little of their budget ever goes to salaries or fancy advertising campaigns. I don't suffer from illusions of grandeur and I don't think I should get involved in larger-than-life campaigns to end poverty- especially in such misguided, anti-common sense enterprises like Live8.

Noble causes be damned. Want to help someone? First, learn to do no harm.

And this gentlemen wins the award for actual, rational thought going into which charities he donates to. Sir, I salute you, because you are actually compassionate and caring enough to research and think about things, not join the most popular cause with the most celebrity backing.

Because I watched CNN instead of Live 8...I got to watch an interview with Tony Blair and he outlined a couple of the things he wanted the G8 to focus on (one of them was getting America to start paying its share...like the UK is doing), but one of the things he focused on was making sure that the corrupt governments get removed...and there is some hope, but Africa may not be able to rid itself of the corrupt governments without outside assistance.

Additionally...there are children there dying of AIDs and Malaria and other treatable diseases (not that I think AIDs is curable) that aren't responsible for their corrupt governments (and shouldn't be held responsibile).

But these are things that charities won't fix. These things have to be fixed at the G8.

OH MY GOSHH 15 THOSAND DOLLARS ARE U SERIOSU!!!!!1

EDIT: I HOPE THEY ARENT FEEDING THEM OR PAYEING FOR THERE HOTELS

That's enough for 5,000 to 15,000 African kids. Per celebrity. I think - yes, I'm sure - that's the smell of hypocrisy.

And yes people, this is about monetary aid.

By doubling aid, fully cancelling debt, and delivering trade justice for Africa, the G8 could change the future for millions of men, women and children.

Yet there's no asking for money from private citizens? I'm pretty sure (I mean, I could be wrong, but y'know) that if $25,000,000,000 will help, $2,000,000,000 will still do something. But no, awareness is more important. Edit; By which I mean, essentially, why not charge people to attend the Live 8 concerts? If it's the millions worldwide that are reported, that should have been able to raise quite the sum of money.

This is without doubt a moment in history where ordinary people can grasp the chance to achieve something truly monumental and demand from the 8 world leaders at G8 an end to poverty.

So, you say, it's truly monumental to ask something of your political leaders? Amazing. Just more proof it's all about self-aggrandized ideals with no hope of demonstrable results.

Israel must really be ruined by the $3 billion it gets from the US each year.
And this post wins the Total Irrelevancy award of the month.

That's enough for 5,000 to 15,000 African kids. Per celebrity. I think - yes, I'm sure - that's the smell of hypocrisy.

And yes people, this is about monetary aid.



Yet there's no asking for money from private citizens? I'm pretty sure (I mean, I could be wrong, but y'know) that if $25,000,000,000 will help, $2,000,000,000 will still do something. But no, awareness is more important. Edit; By which I mean, essentially, why not charge people to attend the Live 8 concerts? If it's the millions worldwide that are reported, that should have been able to raise quite the sum of money.



So, you say, it's truly monumental to ask something of your political leaders? Amazing. Just more proof it's all about self-aggrandized ideals with no hope of demonstrable results.


The point is that the debt is way too fucking heavy. You know those UNICEF boxes that kids carry on Halloween. Those are meant to help kids in Africa, but have they helped much... no becuase the debt is too fucking huge. All that money raised at Live Aid wouldn't do much becuase it. Celebrities and people attending wouldn't have raised that much money. The only solution is to cancel it..

The point is that the debt is way too fucking heavy. You know those UNICEF boxes that kids carry on Halloween. Those are meant to help kids in Africa, but have they helped much... no becuase the debt is too fucking huge. All that money raised at Live Aid wouldn't do much becuase it. Celebrities and people attending wouldn't have raised that much money. The only solution is to cancel it..

Yes, and then nobody will ever lend an African nation - and probably not most African businesses or individuals - a penny ever again, because they know a snap of the fingers will mean their money is gone.

It's these charity bands that i don't like. the things for your wrist, not the loud singing things.
They're a great idea, but fakes on the high street are outselling real ones.

And this post wins the Total Irrelevancy award of the month.
US aid to Israel (http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm) has cost the US taxpayers almost $135 billion. You are saying that aid ruins the economy of the recipient country. As one of the biggest recipients of US aid Israel would seem to prove you wrong. US tax payers have paid $23,000 for each Israeli. I wonder how many lives could be saved in Africa with $23,000?

US aid to Israel (http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm) has cost the US taxpayers almost $135 billion. You are saying that aid ruins the economy of the recipient country. As one of the biggest recipients of US aid Israel would seem to prove you wrong. US tax payers have paid $23,000 for each Israeli. I wonder how many lives could be saved in Africa with $23,000?
23,000?!!

That's enough money for each African to live just about 63 years without having to ever work!!

US aid to Israel (http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm) has cost the US taxpayers almost $135 billion. You are saying that aid ruins the economy of the recipient country. As one of the biggest recipients of US aid Israel would seem to prove you wrong. US tax payers have paid $23,000 for each Israeli. I wonder how many lives could be saved in Africa with $23,000?
For that matter, many of Israel's leading economists do believe that US aid is detrimental to Israel's economy. The current Israel's finance minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, openly stated more than once that his economic policy aims to eventually phase out US aid to Israel. I could make a long elaborate post about how and why US aid harms Israel- but not here. This thread was meant for discussing a different issue entirely.

I have an idea for a great reality show...let's take all the politicians in the American government, and make them live on a dollar a day...

US aid to Israel (http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm) has cost the US taxpayers almost $135 billion. You are saying that aid ruins the economy of the recipient country. As one of the biggest recipients of US aid Israel would seem to prove you wrong. US tax payers have paid $23,000 for each Israeli. I wonder how many lives could be saved in Africa with $23,000?
None. The foreign aid to Israel isn't flushed down a toilet to enrich a local warlord and his gang, or funnelled off to a numbered account by the people allegedly in the loop to administer and deliver it.
The aid to Israel is primarily Military in nature. What we (the U.S.) get out of it, is access to one of the nastiest and most effective Intelligence Networks in the world (the Mossad), a market for our military goods (since Europe won't sell to Israel), and a reliable military ally in the middle-east, an ally with a record of winning wars.
Israel took the economic aid, and actually built an industrial base, infrastructure, (roads, utilities, hospitals, schools...) and agricultural base with it. They aren't a frikkin' Basket-case-and they did it with jack shit for resources in a wasteland.

Africa, on the other hand, is lousy with mineral and agricultural wealth-but can't feed itself. Technology goes there to die, as do ideologies.
Everything true of Israel, is not true of Africa. As pointed out by a previous poster, the Aid rarely if ever reaches the intended recipients, and when it does, it's rarely if ever effective at more than prolonging the suffering.

It is, however, a marvelous way for some people to enrich themselves at the expense of others, and tends to provide no return for the investment, either for the intended recipient, or the persons contributing here at home.

I take it you didn't watch ANY of the acts around the world then. If you had, you would have seen that the majority (and the totality of those in Hyde Park) said something about Africa, about how We Are The Generation To Take A Stand, and about how we must force the Leaders of the G8 to see what WE, the people, want.

If you didn't, then that would explain your...interesting...views. I think it is wrong to say that most of the acts don't care about poverty, and not many of them were 'kids'.
Aligned Planets-- I think The Holy Womble meant the people coming to the concert.
I don't think that the concert-goers don't care, though. There's a terrible stereotype that young people couldn't be bothered about the state of the world today--that caring doesn't come in even a small bit until you are middle aged.
I'm 13. I care. I care a lot.

Okay. What do you want the G8 to do? Cancel the debt. Fine. Now the despots, lunatics, and completely corrupt leading most African nations have more money to oppress the masses. What next? Send food, medical supplies and money. Alright. Now the state/warlords seize it and sell it to the populace for money, goods, or slaves.

Welcome to Africa, where the only way to fix ANYTHING is by direct military involvement to remove those currently in power.

Pardon my spelling...

You guys really shouldn't listen to this thread starter, sure some (most likely a good amount of the artists) walk away with goodies bags, which is horrible to hear, but many of the "important" people in this thing don't, like the U2 members, Will Smith, Madonna, Eliton John, and the others that really care and have been doing this for a long time. Remember the concert was free, t-shirts were free, water was free, and food was free. The concert was pretty huge and has encouraged many to sign the online petitions on aolmusic and one.org (a seperate organization that includes Brad Pitt, Tom Hanks, and many other actors that have no idea what a goody bag is {I.E. they are in it because they believe}); in fact upwards of 35 million have signed the petitions at the end of Live 8 because of Live 8.

Sure it is bad that a good amount couldn't find in their hearts to perform for completely free, but this will still make a difference. Tony Blair has already responsed to questions from Beyonce and Bush came out today starting he is a "very much a activist" on Africa (ha, changing his tune). The politicians will sit up and notice this and although I do doubt that G8 will give the $25 billion in aid or complete debt forgiveness for Africa as Sir Bob wants, but I do believe that Live 8 will certainly increase African grants from G8 countries. If the increase of outpouring is too small, there will be an outcry from those who took part in Live 8 (including the millions that watched on TV).

And lets not forget that Live 8 organizers are also part of the march on the G8 conference and when a politican sees all of those marchers, they will react. (The marchers will also present the Aolmusic petition, the Live 8 offical petition, and the One.org petition).

Considering what bands get as riders these days, a $4,000 goodie bag is still a massive cut from just that part of what they would normally get. I got a sense of what the bags where worth but not a sense of where they came from. If Hugo Boss donates a bunch a crap to thank the bands for showing up and doing thier thing, why is that a big deal? Why does it make it a scam? It's not even like the concert is to raise money, so it's not like it's taking out of a coffer meant for something else.

I think it would be ludicris to assume that major band is making time for this concert because they're getting a gift bag. Garage Wally and the Rent Reductions out of your local tavern-for them it might be worth it to play of a $4 Grand gift bag...not so much the caliber of bands that have signed on to this show. Seems like a red herring to me, one of those reflexes to find something wrong in the good someone else tries to do rather than finding your own good.

Pardon my spelling...

You guys really shouldn't listen to this thread starter, sure some (most likely a good amount of the artists) walk away with goodies bags, which is horrible to hear, but many of the "important" people in this thing don't, like the U2 members, Will Smith, Madonna, Eliton John, and the others that really care and have been doing this for a long time.
Comments by an acquantance of mine on another forum, who is more familiar with the music world than I am:

Who doesn't know how bad things are in Africa? We don't need a self-righteous group of 'Pop Stars' to tell it to us. While I believe Sir Bob does want to help he really doesn't seem to have a clue as to how to go about it.

"Africa is in shit, lets have a party!"

Is it just me that finds his logic somewhat twisted?

It's also kind of obvious that very few of the bands are actually doing it out of the 'kindness' of their hearts.

U2: Their latest album was dropping out of the chart with increasing speed. They join Sir Bobs army (lets face it, Bono blatently wishes he was Bob Geldof) and oh look, sales pick up. Even some of their older albums suddenly break back into the top 75.

Coldplay: Gee whiz if they haven't just released an album...

Sir Elton: New single out soon which means a new album to follow.


Remember the concert was free, t-shirts were free, water was free, and food was free.
And remember that somebody paid for all of the above very real money that could have been spend in a more productive way.

Congradulations, U2. You've successfully gotten 35 Million signatures. Too bad 25 of those will have lost motivation within the next six months. Alwell.

--Miyage

Congradulations, U2. You've successfully gotten 35 Million signatures. Too bad 25 of those will have lost motivation within the next six months. Alwell.

--Miyage
The G8 summit will be over by then so it would be too late for those 25 million to do anything more to presuade them.

But even with government aid, that isn't enough. Citizens HAVE to care, or Africa will be in the same shape it is now. G8 summit doesn't mean a damn thing.

--Miyage

But even with government aid, that isn't enough. Citizens HAVE to care, or Africa will be in the same shape it is now. G8 summit doesn't mean a damn thing.

--Miyage
I think I disagree with you...

That's your right. Everyone is entitled to ignorance.

--Miyage

One thing I disagree with you on is your choice to use such a small font.

Another thing I disagree with you on is the significance of the G8. If you seriously think the G8 makes zero difference...

I'm not saying it's not important for those 35 million people to keep caring...but do you seriously think that the G8 summit makes no difference at all?'


By the way, I also disagree with your choice to call anyone who disagrees with you ignorant. In my opinion, that's slightly ignorant of yourself.

My font is only one point difference from yours.

And heavens no, G8 Doesn't make NO difference. It makes little to none. Anyone who went there to be effected has already been effected, thus leaving little room for anyone more to be effected.

Who is this concert supposed to persuade? Last time I checked George W. and Tony B. didn't get their jollies off doing DDR to the Big Willie Style album. Sorry to depress you.

--Miyage

Where did I ever draw a connection between G8 and Live 8? In fact, I've been satirizing the whole deal, mockingly explaining that Live 8 would work because Bush and Blair are the presidents of the Coldplay fan club...


But all told...just because G8 hasn't done anything in the past doesn't mean it can't make a difference. Pessism doesn't take us anywhere...so what's your point? Are you just here to piss people off?

Of course not, but it's often a plus. Just injecting a few CCs of realism into the viens of this discussion. Good day to you. I'm off to a baseball game. I'm paying to go. The players aren't recieving fifteen thousand dollars worth in gifts. The G8 doesn't give a damn if we win over our odds, either.

--Miyage

Oh please.

I do nothing? Suppose. But I do no harm,
You do harm by starting threads such as these and label the noble cause of raising awareness a "scam". Again, shame on you.

and compared to the Live8 morons, it is already a damn good start. They are actively destroying any hope for Africa to ever normalize their economic situation.
Truly this is a bogus argument on your behalf. Doing nothing to help these people actually makes their economic situation worse.

You see, my friend, I was born in Russia. I actually was on the receiving end of humanitarian aid during the early 90-s. I've seen how it works, I've seen the effects of the aid on the ground. Guess what: the people who are supposed to get it mostly do not receive squat. The aid ends up on the market, where it is being sold to people for outrageous prices. The money goes two ways- to the corrupt officials who are in charge of aid distribution and to the organized crime controlling markets. The more aid is given, the more crime and corruption it funds. The people don't get anything. Often, they don't even know.
So from YOUR one life experience, that is the way of all charitable actions in the world? I couldn't disagree more.

I don't donate to large famous charities and highly advertized causes, ever. I have my priorities, and I am doing my best to make sure my money does not end up funding the problem rather than its solution.
Which makes you part of the problem?

The only organization I donate to at the moment is a small all-volunteer local group promoting blood and organ donation.
It is noble that you are helping in some way. Perhaps you can ask them to find you a heart?

I worked with them, I know their whole hierarchy, and I know very little of their budget ever goes to salaries or fancy advertising campaigns. I don't suffer from illusions of grandeur and I don't think I should get involved in larger-than-life campaigns to end poverty- especially in such misguided, anti-common sense enterprises like Live8.
If the world tries hard enough and long enough, the efforts to help those less fortunate will result in many victories.

Noble causes be damned. Want to help someone? First, learn to do no harm.
Like I stated, you have done much harm by starting this thread. You certainly haven't helped.

Of course not, but it's often a plus. Just injecting a few CCs of realism into the viens of this discussion. Good day to you. I'm off to a baseball game. I'm paying to go. The players aren't recieving fifteen thousand dollars worth in gifts. The G8 doesn't give a damn if we win over our odds, either.

--Miyage
Heh...well, then this is a good time to call it quits, because I have to go to work...but when you get an opportunity, look through this thread. Tell me, between the two of us, who is the realist, and who's the pessimist (and there is an EXTREME difference).

wow to think taht i went there and smoked pot for no reason....

live 8 does not and i repeat NOT force goverments to do anything about it, think of it this way,

i am a rich goverment in a rich country......the country is only rich because it lent money to the poor country and getting back in intrest......we are asking them to cut the dept of the poor country and decrease the income of their country.......hmmmm.......


what do you think they will do :rolleyes: .......even if there are millions of people (and a couple of celebs who are looking for fame) they cant give 2 sh*ts about us......they just want their country to be the most powerful in the world (or in america's case, remain the most powerful)

ok.......i did not read the rest of your posts (only the first page) so sorry for replying soo soon.

Oh Dear God. The suits, special treatment, has notihng to do with Live8, it is INDEPENDENT, privatised companies wanting celebrites to wear their fashions, eat their food, drink their drink. HELLO EVERY TELEVISION EVENT EVER! I was there, it was fantastic. Donations were not accepted you are right, but purely for the fact that Live8 refused to give charity, as the government would tax it, as Bob Geldoff expained if you ever want to bother listening. It is a long shot, but guess what? There is no other option. We can at least try, never give up before you've even started, I find that absoloubly, inconceivabely pathetic. What if Nelson Madella, MLK, Ganhi had listened to the everyone saying " Guess what mate? You got no chance!"

It is only ever a few, brave souls who change the world. Liv8 itself was an achievement, do not lose faith in the power of music. 150 bands, not one stroppy celebrity, all of them came together for what is right. And if you find that sad, then I feel very sorry for you.

live 8 is worthless, world hunger can take a backseat for now. the united states does everything and i'm sick of it. screw making this for world hunger make it for our troops, they are actually from america and it would benefit our loved ones. in my opinion we have given so much to charity that it's beginning to take a toll on us. everytime we give out some huge grant it comes out of our pockets, ppl here r starving lets go with help america's economy concert or something, in my opinion music isn't going to do nehting to promote world hunger and we need to support our troops more then we need to worry about world hunger. it's just a problem we r never going to solve, i think ppl to learn that.
Leader :sniper:
Yott Yott

You do harm by starting threads such as these and label the noble cause of raising awareness a "scam". Again, shame on you.
On the contrary, I am trying to prevent harm that is being done by the Live8. Urging people to stop and think before being herded into supporting a fashionable cause without examining it on its true merits.


Truly this is a bogus argument on your behalf. Doing nothing to help these people actually makes their economic situation worse.
Nope, this is a bogus argument on YOUR behalf. I am challenging the assumption that Live8 and the cause it stands for does anything to improve Africa's economic situation. I suggest that it is very likely to make things worse. This does not mean that I am calling on people to do nothing. I have even explained what I myself suggest.


So from YOUR one life experience, that is the way of all charitable actions in the world? I couldn't disagree more.
Disagree you can. But yes, my life experience is pretty indicative. I've seen and heard plenty of identical stories about pretty much every single place where aid goes.


It is noble that you are helping in some way. Perhaps you can ask them to find you a heart?
They know I have one already. However, I might look for a brain for you, my friend, because the one you're using seems to be fried.


If the world tries hard enough and long enough, the efforts to help those less fortunate will result in many victories.
Slogan waving. How about some result oriented thinking? How about answering a simple question: the world has been trying long enough. HOW MUCH HAS BEEN ACHIEVED?


Like I stated, you have done much harm by starting this thread. You certainly haven't helped.
Perhaps I have helped. I am counting on there being some intelligent people here who can do their own analysis of things.

Disagree you can. But yes, my life experience is pretty indicative. I've seen and heard plenty of identical stories about pretty much every single place where aid goes.


I'm not going to be arrogant or pretentious in understanding every economic situation and I don't believe I know enough about the subject to really comment on the rest of your post, either that or its just two people saying "I'm right your wrong" but hey.
I've gotta congratulate you because I study International Relations and I couldn't even tell you every country where aid goes. Let alone know a viable source from each one

wow to think taht i went there and smoked pot for no reason....

Did you have a good time? (I assume you did-if you actually went, concerts are usually a blast.)
Now, if you hated the music and went anyway, you're an idiot. But, if you had a good time and enjoyed the music and the whole groove, good. Your time was not wasted (even if your brain was...)
But remember that most of those people will find some other diversion soon, and they'll feel they 'did something' by participating, even though they likely didn't really do anything about the problem.

live 8 is worthless, world hunger can take a backseat for now. the united states does everything and i'm sick of it. screw making this for world hunger make it for our troops, they are actually from america and it would benefit our loved ones. in my opinion we have given so much to charity that it's beginning to take a toll on us. everytime we give out some huge grant it comes out of our pockets, ppl here r starving lets go with help america's economy concert or something, in my opinion music isn't going to do nehting to promote world hunger and we need to support our troops more then we need to worry about world hunger. it's just a problem we r never going to solve, i think ppl to learn that.
Leader :sniper:
Yott Yott

Don't talk about America when this was directed at the G8, America might be part of the G8 but is not the only part

live 8 is worthless, world hunger can take a backseat for now. the united states does everything and i'm sick of it. screw making this for world hunger make it for our troops, they are actually from america and it would benefit our loved ones. in my opinion we have given so much to charity that it's beginning to take a toll on us. everytime we give out some huge grant it comes out of our pockets, ppl here r starving lets go with help america's economy concert or something, in my opinion music isn't going to do nehting to promote world hunger and we need to support our troops more then we need to worry about world hunger. it's just a problem we r never going to solve, i think ppl to learn that.
Leader :sniper:
Yott Yott
Another thing America needs to work on is its grammar epedemic.

Another thing America needs to work on is its grammar epedemic.

Gram-aid?

I think American children live on less than a dollar's worth of education a day...

One of the problems with Africa is when we do send food and forgive what they owe, will they make sure it all goes to help those that need it and not horded it up or be stolen by shifty leader's?

I couldn't care less if the Live8 performer's were given a token gift bag, but I care that people are starving to death.

There are people starving in countries that throw away more food than they'll ever eat, The United State, Britts, UK and other's could feed them all.

I too care about our men and women fighting in Iraq, but that is not the topic in this thread, so enough said on that.

We wealthy nation's should be using our wasted food to feed the hungry people of the world, infact our hogs eat better than many children ever will.

Our countries have always stood together when another attacked an allied nation and we should do the same in stamping out world hunger.

I think American children live on less than a dollar's worth of education a day...
:rolleyes:

Charities banned from Live8 concert (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050629.wnocharity0629/BNStory/Entertainment/).

Collecting food for the homeless and hungry is taking a back seat to poverty in Africa as organizers for Saturday's Live 8 concert ban charities from collecting donations at the event.

Organizers have said local fundraising could “dilute the focus” of the concerts, which includes encouraging the world's G8 leaders to eliminate the debt currently owed by African countries.

Goody bags handed to "free" Live8 performers (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=54219)

Live 8 performers are playing for free, but local organisers plan to shower the celebrities with a Hugo Boss duffel bag loaded with high-fashion trinkets valued at about $4,000

They'll also be able to add to their goodie bags with big-ticket items including Hugo Boss suits, valued at $1,000 to $1,310 each; XM satellite radios and subscriptions, $655; Gibson guitars, $2,600; Bertolucci watches, valued between $2,000 and $7,900; and other items.

In all, a celebrity could walk away with a bag of gifts worth as much as $15,700

I'm not surprised. I just see it as some publicity stunt to try and get more public interest in them and generate more wealth. There're far better ways to gather aid relief for other people than throwing some concert which, when I watched a little bit of it, didn't seem to address a single issue of it. Then agian, I only watc hed a few minutes, before changing the channel in annoyed disgust. If they cared so bloody much, I think they'd donate some of their personal fortunes to various organizations and volunteer.

I'm not going to be arrogant or pretentious in understanding every economic situation and I don't believe I know enough about the subject to really comment on the rest of your post, either that or its just two people saying "I'm right your wrong" but hey.
I've gotta congratulate you because I study International Relations and I couldn't even tell you every country where aid goes. Let alone know a viable source from each one
:rolleyes: Can you do any better than this pointless word hunting? Can you, mr. I Study International Relations, give me an example of a state where aid is not being stolen, sold and otherwise misused?

Let me tell you some of what I know.

I sometimes buy food at the Carmel market in Tel-Aviv. Every time I go there I see young Arab traders selling huge piles of French corned beef in red tin cans, all marked "Humanitarian aid. Not for sale". This is the food that the hungry families in the Gaza strip should have been getting. Instead, it is being collected in Gaza by the Palestinian officials in charge of aid distribution, then smuggled into Israel and sold. The Gazans never see it.

The one time my family had donated money to a high-profile cause through a major charity was after the tsunami. My sister, who has become more of a Westerner than the rest of us, was so overwhelmed by the pictures broadcasted on TV that she wanted to do at least something for those people. I've persuaded her to wait a few days and watch if the aid already donated actually reaches the people. The news reports seemed to prove that it did, so we donated some money via the RTL channel fundraising event. Now I regret it. Here's why.

I first became uneasy watching reports about all the political bickering over who will distribute the aid in Sri Lanka and Indonesia. The aid became a bargaining chip in the fight between the governments and the rebels. Then reports came of rebels attacking aid workers, the government banning aid from rebel controlled areas, shit like that. Lives were lost over it. And I share the blame, because I funded it. I donated.

Last week I've talked to a man from ZAKA (Israeli Disaster Victims Identification team) who was working as a volunteer in Sri Lanka after the tsunami. Asked him about the aid because it still was bugging me. Here's what he told me.

Most of the stuff brought to Sri Lanka as aid was at best useless, at worst damaging because delivering it consumed huge amounts of money. Aid agencies bought stuff without having the slightest clue of whether it could actually be used in the specific circumstances.

The Italians sent tens of thousands of tents. They all were thrown away, because they weren't designed for hot climate and people would rather sleep outside than suffer from the heat inside. Another European charity sent lots of warm winter coats. Also very helpful. :rolleyes:

Dozens of aid agencies send hundreds of thousands of bed sheets. Not a single matress to use them on though.

But that's minor stuff. The big stuff happened with the boats. You see, the Dutch decided to do the smart thing and restore the fishing boat fleet of Sri Lanka so the people could earn a living. Every fisherman was promised a new boat for free. How did they know who was a fisherman? Well, they're Europeans. They went and asked the Sri Lankan government for the lists. Big mistake. Absolute majority of the fishermen suddenly happened to be off the lists, and lots of people who never did any fishing in their life (and many who never actually existed at all) were on the lists. Thousands of boats were passed to these people and immediately sold for sky high prices to the real fishermen.

Did you know the charities actually FIGHT each other? A French charity comes to Sri Lanka, builds toilets. First thing they do is put lots of stickers with their logo on the buildings and take photos- here, dear donors, see where your money goes. Two weeks later along comes another charity, "Help from Germany", to build toilets. But there already are toilets. Trouble is, they're French. Well, no problem. The Germans demolish these toilets, build new ones, cover them with stickers with "Help from Germany" logo and take photos: here, dear donors, see where your money goes.

Main effect of the tsunami relief in Sri Lanka- alcoholism and crime. Why? Well, think about it. A man who has lost his whole family and his house is called to an office and is handed 2000 dollars: go build yourself a new house, they say. If he is not robbed on his way out (and what target is more tempting for a robber than a lone man carrying a new house worth of money?), what will he spend this money on? That's right, drinking his grief away.

Bribes. They're omnipresent pretty much. Customs want bribes or they won't let the aid through. Government officials want bribes or they won't let the aid agencies work. You know how many government ministries are there in Sri Lanka? Eighty six. I kid you not. And in each one there are people to bribe. Local governors want bribes. Little clerks in little towns want bribes. The rebels want "donations for the cause". The robbers want... well they want to take whatever they want. And the aid shrinks, shrinks and fucking shrinks. And the more aid, the more bribes, the more crime. And what do the people on the bottom of the chain get? Squat. Oh wait, they do get a rise in crime, that's gotta count for something.


You want me to fund this mess? You want me to give my money to crooked officials and incompetent fools with supposedly good intentions and an urge to show off? Why, because its a "noble cause"? Noble causes be damned. I don't give a damn about causes, I care for the people. I don't donate to feel good, either. I'll only give my money when I am sure where it goes.

If they cared so bloody much, I think they'd donate some of their personal fortunes to various organizations and volunteer.
If all those celebrities were to give away their fortunes, they could put their money together, buy Africa and do as they please to fix it :p

:rolleyes: Can you do any better than this pointless word hunting? Can you, mr. I Study International Relations, give me an example of a state where aid is not being stolen, sold and otherwise misused?

Let me tell you some of what I know.

I sometimes buy food at the Carmel market in Tel-Aviv. Every time I go there I see young Arab traders selling huge piles of French corned beef in red tin cans, all marked "Humanitarian aid. Not for sale". This is the food that the hungry families in the Gaza strip should have been getting. Instead, it is being collected in Gaza by the Palestinian officials in charge of aid distribution, then smuggled into Israel and sold. The Gazans never see it.

The one time my family had donated money to a high-profile cause through a major charity was after the tsunami. My sister, who has become more of a Westerner than the rest of us, was so overwhelmed by the pictures broadcasted on TV that she wanted to do at least something for those people. I've persuaded her to wait a few days and watch if the aid already donated actually reaches the people. The news reports seemed to prove that it did, so we donated some money via the RTL channel fundraising event. Now I regret it. Here's why.

I first became uneasy watching reports about all the political bickering over who will distribute the aid in Sri Lanka and Indonesia. The aid became a bargaining chip in the fight between the governments and the rebels. Then reports came of rebels attacking aid workers, the government banning aid from rebel controlled areas, shit like that. Lives were lost over it. And I share the blame, because I funded it. I donated.

Last week I've talked to a man from ZAKA (Israeli Disaster Victims Identification team) who was working as a volunteer in Sri Lanka after the tsunami. Asked him about the aid because it still was bugging me. Here's what he told me.

Most of the stuff brought to Sri Lanka as aid was at best useless, at worst damaging because delivering it consumed huge amounts of money. Aid agencies bought stuff without having the slightest clue of whether it could actually be used in the specific circumstances.

The Italians sent tens of thousands of tents. They all were thrown away, because they weren't designed for hot climate and people would rather sleep outside than suffer from the heat inside. Another European charity sent lots of warm winter coats. Also very helpful. :rolleyes:

Dozens of aid agencies send hundreds of thousands of bed sheets. Not a single matress to use them on though.

But that's minor stuff. The big stuff happened with the boats. You see, the Dutch decided to do the smart thing and restore the fishing boat fleet of Sri Lanka so the people could earn a living. Every fisherman was promised a new boat for free. How did they know who was a fisherman? Well, they're Europeans. They went and asked the Sri Lankan government for the lists. Big mistake. Absolute majority of the fishermen suddenly happened to be off the lists, and lots of people who never did any fishing in their life (and many who never actually existed at all) were on the lists. Thousands of boats were passed to these people and immediately sold for sky high prices to the real fishermen.

Did you know the charities actually FIGHT each other? A French charity comes to Sri Lanka, builds toilets. First thing they do is put lots of stickers with their logo on the buildings and take photos- here, dear donors, see where your money goes. Two weeks later along comes another charity, "Help from Germany", to build toilets. But there already are toilets. Trouble is, they're French. Well, no problem. The Germans demolish these toilets, build new ones, cover them with stickers with "Help from Germany" logo and take photos: here, dear donors, see where your money goes.

Main effect of the tsunami relief in Sri Lanka- alcoholism and crime. Why? Well, think about it. A man who has lost his whole family and his house is called to an office and is handed 2000 dollars: go build yourself a new house, they say. If he is not robbed on his way out (and what target is more tempting for a robber than a lone man carrying a new house worth of money?), what will he spend this money on? That's right, drinking his grief away.

Bribes. They're omnipresent pretty much. Customs want bribes or they won't let the aid through. Government officials want bribes or they won't let the aid agencies work. You know how many government ministries are there in Sri Lanka? Eighty six. I kid you not. And in each one there are people to bribe. Local governors want bribes. Little clerks in little towns want bribes. The rebels want "donations for the cause". The robbers want... well they want to take whatever they want. And the aid shrinks, shrinks and fucking shrinks. And the more aid, the more bribes, the more crime. And what do the people on the bottom of the chain get? Squat. Oh wait, they do get a rise in crime, that's gotta count for something.

You want me to fund this mess? You want me to give my money to crooked officials and incompetent fools with supposedly good intentions and an urge to show off? Why, because its a "noble cause"? Noble causes be damned. I don't give a damn about causes, I care for the people. I don't donate to feel good, either. I'll only give my money when I am sure where it goes.

Please don't take my post in hostillity. I haven't experienced this first hand as you have so how am I going to know more? I'm not.
I'm not saying there arn't corrupt forces out there because that would be niaeve, what I am saying is that we have gotta keep trying even though, as you say some of it doesn't hit the people it should. But equally you cannot say that it doesn't affect anyone that the aid is trying to reach.
And because I'm "mr. I Study International Relations" I'm going to try and see that more aid meets more of the right people and not go for possible higher paid jobs and believe me they are there.
My post that sparked this reaction was just a way of saying that it still does some good.

[QUOTE=Aligned Planets]To be honest, I think many of the people on these forums couldn't name the G8 Nations if they tried (without Googling it) or why the G8 was formed, and what they do.

<snip>

QUOTE]

USA
UK
France
Japan
Germany
Canada
Italy
Russia

If you watched Live8 that would be fairly obvious, all the concerts were in these cities lol!!!

G8 (originally G7) was formed to discuss topical and try and solve problems that affect the globe as a whole, or require powerful nations to make a stance against something to stop it happening in that country, or in other parts of the world. Although in theory it could talk about anything, it mostly talks about helping out LEDCs and Global Warming.

Just in case you lot have been living in a cave for the last 10 years! lol!!

~~~SNIP~~~

You want me to fund this mess? You want me to give my money to crooked officials and incompetent fools with supposedly good intentions and an urge to show off? Why, because its a "noble cause"? Noble causes be damned. I don't give a damn about causes, I care for the people. I don't donate to feel good, either. I'll only give my money when I am sure where it goes.

You live in such a cynical world? Trying to eradicate world hunger is not a "noble cause"?

I will give you cynical:

Every year, the US donates about $3 Billion for Israeli defence and the result of that aid?

The Israeli military (IDF)—the third or forth most powerful army in the world—routinely uses tanks, Apache helicopter gunships, and F-16 fighter jets (all subsidized by the U.S.) against a population that has no military and none of the protective institutions of a modern state.

Perhaps this "aid" should stop forthwith?

That I posted this, does not make me pro Palestinian or anti Israeli. I would like to see a resolution to this grid lock.

As far as world hunger is concerned, a possible solution has been offered. A solution that YOU object to strongly.....so strongly that you started this thread.

Now perhaps you would like to share with the world, what YOU propose for a solution or should the world just continue to ignore this huge problem in hopes that it will just go away?

Another thing America needs to work on is its grammar epedemic.
And another thing you need to work on is your spelling epidemic.

You want me to fund this mess? You want me to give my money to crooked officials and incompetent fools with supposedly good intentions and an urge to show off? Why, because its a "noble cause"? Noble causes be damned. I don't give a damn about causes, I care for the people. I don't donate to feel good, either. I'll only give my money when I am sure where it goes.
So why DO you donate, then? To help the people? And that isn't a "cause"? Wouldn't you be out there actually helping the people if you seriously cared about them, instead of posting about your non-noble-intentions in an Internet forum?

So why DO you donate, then? To help the people? And that isn't a "cause"? Wouldn't you be out there actually helping the people if you seriously cared about them, instead of posting about your non-noble-intentions in an Internet forum?
Especially since his/her country (Israel?), isn't one of the 8 being asked to donate to help eradicate world hunger?

You live in such a cynical world? Trying to eradicate world hunger is not a "noble cause"?
See, I don't care if it is. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, you know. I am used to result oriented thinking- and it is the potential harm that may result from the Live8 crowd efforts that bothers me. I don't give a damn how noble they are at heart. They can be saints for all I care- but if their actions are harmful, to hell with them anyway.


I will give you cynical:

Every year, the US donates about $3 Billion for Israeli defence and the result of that aid?

The Israeli military (IDF)—the third or forth most powerful army in the world—routinely uses tanks, Apache helicopter gunships, and F-16 fighter jets (all subsidized by the U.S.) against a population that has no military and none of the protective institutions of a modern state.

Perhaps this "aid" should stop forthwith?
That's not cynical. That's stupid of you. It's funny that all you can counter my arguments with is an absolutely irrelevant reference to something that has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing, yet is aimed to somehow make me feel bad about my country. Hell, you haven't even bothered to read one of my previous posts where I have- briefly and reluctantly because it doesn't belong in this thread- adressed this issue.

Want to talk about US aid to Israel- start a new thread. I'm game. I can already see that your actual knowlege on the subject is below zero, so it will take me no effort to rip your arguments apart. But in this thread we're talking about Live8 and Africa- so kindly stick to the subject.


As far as world hunger is concerned, a possible solution has been offered. A solution that YOU object to strongly.....so strongly that you started this thread.

Now perhaps you would like to share with the world, what YOU propose for a solution or should the world just continue to ignore this huge problem in hopes that it will just go away?
I already have, a few posts back. The solution is letting the Western businesses in, liberalizing economy, protecting foreign investments. The solution is industralization, because without industry Africa is as good as dead. The solution is rewarding anyone who sets up factories in Africa where people can EARN, not beg for, money.

The solution is getting rid of Mugabe and other greedy bastards who won't let any of the above happen because it would mean lots of money escaping their clutches. By force if necessery. It won't look shiny and pretty on TV, but without Mugabe, Zimbabwe at least stands a chance. With him it doesn't.

The solution is making the African states go the same route that the "Asian tigers" went. From starvation to sweatshops, from sweatshops to heavy industry, from heavy industry to high-tech. And no, there is no way around sweatshops. Most real cures taste bitter. That's life to you.

Did Phil Collins do anything at the concert? I missed it.

So why DO you donate, then? To help the people? And that isn't a "cause"?
Like I said in my previous post, I don't bloody care if it is or it isn't. I use a different criteria- does it work or does it not. With the organization I donate to, I can see the achieved results. With the Africa champions, results are nowhere to be seen.


Wouldn't you be out there actually helping the people if you seriously cared about them, instead of posting about your non-noble-intentions in an Internet forum?
Like I said, I am donating and volunteering to help people. I am simply being careful about where my money goes. If I want to help, it does not oblige me to automatically subscribe to every movement and cause who yell at the top of their lungs that they, too, are out to help people. Especially if I don't see them as helpful.

Did Phil Collins do anything at the concert? I missed it.
No

No

Well, maybe next time then.

Seems to me like quite a bit of that US aid has gone and made Israel's education system damned fine, because The Holy Womble is one damn smart cat.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaanyways, without getting off-topic, I am glad that people want to take note - and I believe people do want to help, but they also want quick fixes, and they have to understand fixing a continent isn't going to be quick, painless, or pretty, and it's not going to happen from money being thrown at it. I wish to hell it could be, I wish we could all donate a few bucks and sit back, and watch Africa bloom into something special, but that's not the way it's going to work.

Seems to me like quite a bit of that US aid has gone and made Israel's education system damned fine, because The Holy Womble is one damn smart cat.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaanyways, without getting off-topic, I am glad that people want to take note - and I believe people do want to help, but they also want quick fixes, and they have to understand fixing a continent isn't going to be quick, painless, or pretty, and it's not going to happen from money being thrown at it. I wish to hell it could be, I wish we could all donate a few bucks and sit back, and watch Africa bloom into something special, but that's not the way it's going to work.
The only way to do it is through hard work, commitment and G8 lifting the debt. Hence the concerts.

Heh...well, then this is a good time to call it quits, because I have to go to work...but when you get an opportunity, look through this thread. Tell me, between the two of us, who is the realist, and who's the pessimist (and there is an EXTREME difference).

Indeed. The difference will be seen after the G8 summit has passed and the same result as the past two decades rings clear again. Bands and Actors hold tiny pedistals in the political world, unless they manage to previously break into them. (A.K.A. Ronnie boy And now Arnold.) Bush, Blair, (They should call it the B8), and the others in our 'LEAGUE OF HEROS' aren't going to listen one bit to this issue because Jon Bon Jovi is on board with the idea. :rolleyes: Grow up, please. (That goes for all of you.)

--Miyage

Below is something I just wrote in a similar fourum but I beleive that I should add it to this one:

Before I say what I think I should point out that I am biased in the extreme, I am a 25 year old white Zimbabwean journo living in exile in Scotland working in Higher education. My partner is mixed Black Zimbabwean and Scotish, and our families were on opposite sides of our war "of Liberation" which liberated only those Mugabe chose to be liberated.

Africa's problems will not be solved by geriatric rockers or colourful rubber bands, they will not be solved by the eight most powerful people in the world and they will not be resolved by European/US based liberals pontificating on about Fair trade and democracy, colonialism and how bad white people are. Africa's problems all have different solutions and they require the developed world's power and the intelecual classes of Africa's knowledge. My country can be saved by quickly putting a bullet between the eyes of Robert Mugabe and wrestling away power from ZANU (PF) but, Nigeria's problems can be solved by slowly, quitely negotiating and creating more accountability, Congo and Sudan need to be broken up into governable states and Botswana needs to diversify its ecconomy (the best in Africa) and promote imigration. AIDS in Africa can't be solved with drugs or religion or condoms, it requires that the wealth of countries be spead outside of the main cities of Harare, Nairobi, Johannesburg etc, etc, to prevent the rural-urban pull, also we have got to give up the bad traditions we have like poligamy and stop listening to the charlletans (Traditional healers and televangalists) who preach warmed up centuaries old dogma and superstition.

Any one who is prepared to talk sense, country by country will be listened to by Africa, everyone else is just making noise. Also the Neo-Liberal free trade idea is bad, bad, bad! Give us a decade or two of reform and we will be ready for it, but until then all it is is rape and that will only lead to something far worse than the reaction from the middle east.

The solution is making the African states go the same route that the "Asian tigers" went. From starvation to sweatshops, from sweatshops to heavy industry, from heavy industry to high-tech. And no, there is no way around sweatshops. Most real cures taste bitter. That's life to you.

To follow this transition you need to be able to:
1) Export products while still upholding an internal market.
Thus take away export subsidies on western products. Lower import tolls from selected countries.

2) Generate enough earnings to build up society's educational, infrastructural systems etc.
Thus erradicate the debts (but not on the expense of lowering aid) so that the earnings can be used to build societies instead of filling bank accounts in Switzerland.

3) Solve conflicts, environmental and health crisis.
Support NGOs, increase aid to 1% of GNP, refom UN, release drug patents in selected nations.

4) Suporting democracy and international law.

All these things are ongoing (4 doubtfully so in some countries) and are improved by increased pressure on western governemts by western "kids". Wild west style liberalizing economies have failed again and againg in Africa and elsewhere. It is not "allowing western industry in" that has given economic wealth to some countries in asia.

Now if a musical event can open the eyes of certain groups that is just fine with me. But I am not going to respect to Madonna or destiny's child etc for their saccrifice. (However some of the musicians acctually are treating these issues contiuously in their work. Manu Chao, Jamiroquai ...)


And by the way

"...taste bitter..." is a f**king disgusting insult. Especially coming from a young person in an industrialized country.

Slogan waving is supposed to be a proof of something now?

They are not "the generation to take a stand". They are the generation that forgot where the money comes from. How else can one explain the idiotic demand for writing off the African debt? Does no one realize that if their debt is written off once, they will never ever be able to get loans again- simply because no one will trust them anymore to ever repay their debts?You misundertand how it works. The poorer people in rich nations get to send their money to the rich people in poor nations. Then the poor people in the poor nations are supposed to "pay back" the rich people in the rich nations. More often than not, the poor of the poor are unable to pay back the debt, but the actual lenders are out nothing so they'll keep on trying.

what is usually forgotten is who lent the money.

Evil Dictator 1 gets loan from civilised industrialized country A. The loan grant is connected to buying old stock of armaments from the same country A. Evil Dictator 1 uses the weapons to supress rebellion of political background disliked by donor country A.

Long period of killing and thrashing.

Evil dictator is finally overthrown. Rebellion inherits completely trashed country and rather huge loan to civilised country A. Civilised country blames UN and political ideology of rebellion as the reason for poverty. After many years civilised country 1 decides to scrap the debt. Evidently by transfering founds from previously allocated money to foreign aid.

In the place of country A, feel free to introduce Sovietunion, France, US or UK.

Long live the generous and altruistic leaders of G8.

mmm, i could go for a gibson...

We don't all know this. You and a bunch of other cynics sat on your asses in front of computer screens gulping down your mountain dew in your air conditioned homes assume it, and because of that assumption you're going to sit back and make dumb comments while 30,000 people die every day. On top of that you are going to knock people who are trying to do something about the situation.

If any of you Live 8 cynics are christians I say shame on you. Go back to your bibles and try and remember what it was that Jesus tried to teach us.
I don't remember Jesus saying anything about debt relief.

Eh...I don't think Live8 was executed that well, personally. I think Mr. Geldof lives in his own world, where he believes that this concert will permanently raise awareness for world poverty. I really think that in a few weeks, maybe months, everyone will have forgotten about the show and the message it was attempting to bring. If they had charged what...10-20 dollars a person, think of all the relief money they could have made. I realize it's not supposed to be about opening your wallets, but it's just a little too idealistic I think."It's not about opening our wallets. It's about convincing our governments to open our wallets for us."

mmm, i could go for a gibson...
Was that a BUMP?

I don't remember Jesus saying anything about debt relief.

No? Maybe you remember Jesus saying "Fuck Africa, they're all corrupt and the ones who aren't corrupt are lazy. Go forth and steal their wealth, rape their women, take them as slaves. Treat africans as third class citizens. Let them die by their thousands every day while you eat hamburgers made from cows fed on grain grown by africans. Give your money to the israelis because you still believe the lies they told 2,700 years ago. Give your money to the israelis so their warlords can beat down the palestinians. Spend your money on bombs and tanks while thousands starve."

Or maybe you remember "love thy neighbour" and the parable of the good samaritan?

Like I said, if you call yourself a christian, shame on you.

Amen to that.

To follow this transition you need to be able to:
1) Export products while still upholding an internal market.
Thus take away export subsidies on western products. Lower import tolls from selected countries.
I am 100% in favor of that. Protectionism is an abhorrent waste of resources. If Western farmers cannot compete on the market with the Africans, they should not be subsidized. Let them modernize production, innovate, improve marketing, switch to "eco-friendly" products and otherwise compete for the customers' favor. Let them make the Western agriculture profitable again.


2) Generate enough earnings to build up society's educational, infrastructural systems etc.
Thus erradicate the debts (but not on the expense of lowering aid) so that the earnings can be used to build societies instead of filling bank accounts in Switzerland.
Umm no, you are off the mark. Writing off the debt will undermine the financial credibility of the states, thus undermining the future earnings. And relying on aid as a primary income source is a dead end. A steady flow of free unconditional cash stimulates plenty of corruption, but it does not stimulate development. And stimulating development is exactly the key here. I'd say the solution to generating earnings is opening up the markets to foreign investors, friendly tariffs and tax reductions for anyone opening a factory or a business in an African state, some kind of guarantees against government robbery of the successful businesses through excessive taxation and nationalization of property- and proper marketing of the African states as both wonderful tourism sites and good places to invest into.


3) Solve conflicts, environmental and health crisis.
Solving conflicts is mostly a job for the Africans themselves, I'm afraid, although Western military interference wouldn't hurt.

Environmental and health crisis in Africa is mostly caused by Africa's other two main plagues- war and subsistence farming as a predominant occupation. They have no motivation or resources to conserve nature, because they struggle to make a living off it as it is. If the African economies begin to rise from subsistence farming to advanced industry and agriculture, it will create the tools to deal with the environment issue.


Support NGOs, increase aid to 1% of GNP
And again you're pointing us towards the beggar's solution, towards a dead end. Charity does not economy make. The earnings must come from inside Africa.

refom UN
"Reform UN" sounds to me a bit like performing plastic surgery on a corpse.

release drug patents in selected nations
This is a dangerous one. Suppose you release the patents. Can the sub-Saharan African states set up a decent manufacturing industry for these drugs? Nope. They have no technology, no science, no skilled personnel. The way things are today, it would take them decades to even approach the manufacture stage. So what do you achieve by releasing the patents, other than destroying those who make a living off inventing disease cures?


4) Suporting democracy and international law.
AMEN to that one.


Wild west style liberalizing economies have failed again and againg in Africa and elsewhere.
Bullshit. Liberalizing economies was never even tried in Africa the way it has been done in Asia. African governments let in a few handfuls of corporations, all of them centered around mining diamonds and raw materials. The rest were either barred from the market or allowed in, given some time to begin earning profits and then robbed of their property through nationalization. Observe Mugabe grabbing the property of anyone successful as we speak. This is how it worked in that neighborhood all the time pretty much. This is how it works in many other neighborhoods often paraded as a "failure of Western capitalism" (observe Putin grabbing Yukos, the NTV channel and anyone else who manages to earn good money).

Oh and where did Western style liberalization really fail? In Eastern Europe perhaps, where Poland and the Czech Republic are rapidly approaching the highest Western standards of living? Perhaps in Spain, that just a few decades ago was a police state with nationalized industry, and now is Europe in all things? In Thailand, that is richer than all its neighbors except for Singapore, which is itself a stunning example of success by economic freedom? On Taiwan? In Malaysia, the one Muslim state with semi-free economy and coincidentally the most economically stable of them all?


It is not "allowing western industry in" that has given economic wealth to some countries in asia.
Oh really? What was it, then? What oriental magic brought wealth to Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong?


And by the way

"...taste bitter..." is a f**king disgusting insult. Especially coming from a young person in an industrialized country.
Oh shut it already. I'm 28. I live in a country that was built on a piece of infertile desert with regular draught, sandstorms and earthquakes. The land where the only somewhat valuable resources are copper and magnesium bromide. This country, besieged by multiple enemies from the moment of its creation, started off with inflation of some 400%, huge number of immigrants to absorb and just about the worst internal strife possible, not to mention the unbearably huge defense budget. Israel was- and is- forsed to import EVERYTHING, every single resource a modern economy needs- and yet we are doing better than any other state in the region, including Saudi Arabia with their giant oil supply. You know why? Because the Israelis knew that science, technology and free economy are the key to prosperity. This infertile piece of desert has become world leader in drip irrigation, world's second largest supplier of flowers and one of the leading states in milk production per cow already in the 60-s. Now we are world leaders in bio-tech, computer technologies, software and invention patents per capita. And that is exactly the path that I would like to see African states taking. And yes, it will take hard work and sweatshop conditions for them to succeed. You'll understand it one day...when you grow up ;)

That's not cynical. That's stupid of you. It's funny that all you can counter my arguments with is an absolutely irrelevant reference to something that has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing, yet is aimed to somehow make me feel bad about my country. Hell, you haven't even bothered to read one of my previous posts where I have- briefly and reluctantly because it doesn't belong in this thread- adressed this issue.

Want to talk about US aid to Israel- start a new thread. I'm game. I can already see that your actual knowlege on the subject is below zero, so it will take me no effort to rip your arguments apart. But in this thread we're talking about Live8 and Africa- so kindly stick to the subject.


Fair enough this is about Africa

Oh shut it already. I'm 28. I live in a country that was built on a piece of infertile desert with regular draught, sandstorms and earthquakes. The land where the only somewhat valuable resources are copper and magnesium bromide. This country, besieged by multiple enemies from the moment of its creation, started off with inflation of some 400%, huge number of immigrants to absorb and just about the worst internal strife possible, not to mention the unbearably huge defense budget. Israel was- and is- forsed to import EVERYTHING, every single resource a modern economy needs- and yet we are doing better than any other state in the region, including Saudi Arabia with their giant oil supply. You know why? Because the Israelis knew that science, technology and free economy are the key to prosperity. This infertile piece of desert has become world leader in drip irrigation, world's second largest supplier of flowers and one of the leading states in milk production per cow already in the 60-s. Now we are world leaders in bio-tech, computer technologies, software and invention patents per capita. And that is exactly the path that I would like to see African states taking. And yes, it will take hard work and sweatshop conditions for them to succeed. You'll understand it one day...when you grow up

*yawn* Africa you say ? Shame cos I liked the rest of your post even though i didn't agree with it then you had to go off on a rant about a country you critisize people for mentioning