NationStates Jolt Archive

Right I made the France thread. Now let's see whether it'll take off. We already had two "not so" posts, but they weren't exactly insulting.

Is it just me or has this discussion lost a lot of niveau over the past hour or so?

WE ALL AGREE - THERE ARE IDEOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE US AND THE EU, AND THEY MAY VERY WELL BE TOO BIG TO MEND!

Now is that a good thing, or not?

Not true at all. Iraq's military was at its peak in the early 90's, and the coalition forces totally massacred them.
The Iraqis' only chance at victory was doing what they did. Giving up ground and disappearing into the civilian population.

I was talking the recent one. Also IIRC Saddams purges had kinda lost him some of his best officers.

True, but then had Iraq's army been decently motivated to fight they could have given the US forces a hell of a scrap. As it was they broke up quickly.

More like a girly fight, complete with hair-pulling and pinching. They got their asses kicked in 91, but even if they'd been determined, we'd have sliced them up all the same. Total air supremacy, much higher caliber troops, better equipment, better logistics, better command & control ... it all adds up to a rout, in my estimation.

WE ALL AGREE - THERE ARE IDEOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE US AND THE EU, AND THEY MAY VERY WELL BE TOO BIG TO MEND!

Now is that a good thing, or not?

If I did agree that that was the case, then no, it would not be a good thing. I don't think there are such fundamental ideological differences, however, and what political differences there are now are eminently mendable. Assuming they're not allowed to fester and grow.

More like a girly fight, complete with hair-pulling and pinching. They got their asses kicked in 91, but even if they'd been determined, we'd have sliced them up all the same. Total air supremacy, much higher caliber troops, better equipment, better logistics, better command & control ... it all adds up to a rout, in my estimation.
How does that matter again?
You can bomb the shit out of anyone, agreed. But that's not the reason there are these rifts between the US and the EU.
The fact that you actually do bomb the shit out of anyone is.

WE ALL AGREE - THERE ARE IDEOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE US AND THE EU, AND THEY MAY VERY WELL BE TOO BIG TO MEND!

Now is that a good thing, or not?

Now there is the most intriguing question I've heard all night. Should we be mourning the growing separation between us and working with all our might be mend our differences, or should we just say "C'est la vie" and go on our ways, like ships passing in the night?

I'm not the kind to sentimentalize foreign relations, so I'm a fan of approach #2. "Well Europe, we had a good thing going for a while, but it's time we split because we're spending more time patching up our differences than actually working together on anything."

On the other hand, Europe is still the closest to America in terms of overall outlook and philosophy. "We should work to keep them close, at least until we can cultivate friends who agree with us better," is another possible line of reasoning.

Would anyone else care to take a kick at the can?

Wow. This is a terribly depressing thread. I know it's utterly cliche, but why can't we all just get along?

A few other thoughts:

1. To both the Americans and non-Americans who've been discussing this: Americans are very far from all approving of Bush. He got reelected with, what, 51% of the vote? No matter how much the Republican party calls this a "clear mandate" from the people, that means 49% of us wanted him out. (And that's not even counting all the millions of people who didn't express an opinion.) It's neither a "few idiots" who support him nor a "few dissidents" who dislike him. Our country is deeply divided, and no blanket generalizations about our political preferences or beliefs can possibly apply to more than about half of us.

2. To the person who blamed "midwestern farmers" for the rise of conservativism in America: gah. I'm so sick of hearing this. I live in a tiny rural community very near the geographical center of the contiguous United States. My nearest neighbors grow corn or raise cattle. I voted for Kerry, my family voted for Kerry, about half of the people I know voted for Kerry, and something like 47% of my state voted for Kerry. Living in a "red state" doesn't magically make one either Republican or illiterate, and I get really tired of being told (usually by my fellow Americans) that I must be some sort of crazy bigoted redneck simply because I didn't have the common sense to be born in New York.

3. And to the person who wrote the following two excerpts: "So we can say we are better. And since we are the most tolerant nation on Earth..." Are you kidding? Please tell me you're kidding. Have you read the posts on this forum? You know, the ones talking about how snotty and inferior all Europeans are, written by our oh-so-tolerant countrymen? I also suspect an awful lot of my gay/bi/trannie friends would rather vocally beg to differ with your analysis of our wonderfully accepting society...
"...and we've saved you Europeons three times in the last century...." God, I'm sick of this line of argument. Yes, we helped out France quite a lot in WWII, and they helped us out quite a lot in our Revolution. Sounds to me like we're about even, historically speaking. Of course, the vast majority of the people arguing about this weren't alive during any of these conflicts to help or be helped, so it's really sort of silly to demand sycophantic gratitude from anyone at this point.

How does that matter again?
You can bomb the shit out of anyone, agreed. But that's not the reason there are these rifts between the US and the EU.
The fact that you actually do bomb the shit out of anyone is.

It doesn't have any direct bearing on our EU-US discussion. I was rebutting Wurtzelmania, who said France in 1940 and Iraq in 2002 were comparable situations. I disagreed, as you saw.

2. To the person who blamed "midwestern farmers" for the rise of conservativism in America: gah. I'm so sick of hearing this. I live in a tiny rural community very near the geographical center of the contiguous United States. My nearest neighbors grow corn or raise cattle. I voted for Kerry, my family voted for Kerry, about half of the people I know voted for Kerry, and something like 47% of my state voted for Kerry. Living in a "red state" doesn't magically make one either Republican or illiterate, and I get really tired of being told (usually by my fellow Americans) that I must be some sort of crazy bigoted redneck simply because I didn't have the common sense to be born in New York.

Have you seen the electoral map of California, broken down by districts? That place has the reputation of being "bluest of the blue states," but in fact only the coast votes Dem. The rest is solid Republican. The trick is, that those coastal cities have a lot more population than the interior.

By the way, where did you say you were from?

Have you seen the electoral map of California, broken down by districts? That place has the reputation of being "bluest of the blue states," but in fact only the coast votes Dem. The rest is solid Republican. The trick is, that those coastal cities have a lot more population than the interior.


That's not so uncommon though, is it? Don't urban areas tend to be more liberal and more likely to vote Democrat while the rural heartland is more conservative and more inclined to vote Republican? That's pretty much the pattern everywhere, in Britain for example cities are more likely to be Labour, the countryside far more likely to be Conservative. Broadly, there are of course exceptions.

Have you seen the electoral map of California, broken down by districts? That place has the reputation of being "bluest of the blue states," but in fact only the coast votes Dem. The rest is solid Republican. The trick is, that those coastal cities have a lot more population than the interior.

By the way, where did you say you were from?

I spent some time after the election looking at the maps which showed each county in some shade of blue, red, or purple (educational and pretty! :)), so yes, I have. And states like California are precisely the reason why I find it silly to be told that political affiliation can be neatly broken down geographically. Obviously, I don't deny that rural areas are more prone to vote Republican and urban areas to vote Democrat, but the lesson one really takes from those maps is that the whole country is prone to vote...purple.

And I'm from western Missouri, myself.

Is it just me or has this discussion lost a lot of niveau over the past hour or so?

WE ALL AGREE - THERE ARE IDEOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE US AND THE EU, AND THEY MAY VERY WELL BE TOO BIG TO MEND!

Now is that a good thing, or not?

The ability to mend our relationship is not yet out of reach. Both sides have a great deal of influence and power. It would be a shame to squander such resources by opposing our own immensely petty differences, most of which seem to stem from historical misunderstanding (thank John Wayne's Hollywood for that). People need to get universally more intelligent before any ground can truly be gained. I anxiously await the day when the merits of different culture and ideology are appreciated by even the simplest of men. Peace, love and understanding brothers. Everything else leads to death.

EU and US most come together once more, else we are all going to be fucked by those chinks!!! it's imperative we resolve this issue, i don't want to see the chinks as a superpower, i'd kill myself, WESTERN CIVILIZATION BY FAR IS BETTER THAN THOSE CHINESE BASTARDS, REMEMBER WE ARE STILL EUROPEANS AND THEIR DESCENDANTS WE MUST NOT FIGHT AMONGST OURSELVES, WE MUST FIGHT THIS NEW THREAT, AND FIGHT IT HARSHLY AND SWIFTY.

I hope those bloody governors could think like this, what would become of us if those chinks arise into power? I'd rather not think it

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

That, my friend, is utter rubbish. Please tell me what we have to be jealous of? Is it your enlightened leader? Your great multitude of cultural innovations? Macdonalds? I would just love it if my nation were more like yours where children gun one another down and a moron runs the country.

Here, here!

Relations are bad for the fact that we have different idealogies and diffferent opinions on how things are done. Just like all international relations.

It is precisely this attitude that we europeans despise so.

Europeans aren't the only ones who despise the attitude. Why do you think we Canadians ain't too fond of y'all too??????
(Just to let you know, Canada is the nation just north of you Yanks.)

Relations are bad for the fact that we have different idealogies and diffferent opinions on how things are done. Just like all international relations.

I think it is a tad more complicated than international relations with most other countries.

The problem with Europe and the USA is that they have these different ideologies and views, but don't allow for that fact.
The USA expect Europe to see the world their way (the only right way ever, all civilised nations should see that) and are offended if Europe doesn't
Europe expects the USA to share its approach to the problems of the world (after all, this is the culture from which America emerged, those kids better listen to their parents) and are offended to find that America holds values that are regarded as outdated and downright wrong.

It would help if both would finally admit that they ARE vastly more different than they currently think they are.

I think it is a tad more complicated than international relations with most other countries.

The problem with Europe and the USA is that they have these different ideologies and views, but don't allow for that fact.
The USA expect Europe to see the world their way (the only right way ever, all civilised nations should see that) and are offended if Europe doesn't
Europe expects the USA to share its approach to the problems of the world (after all, this is the culture from which America emerged, those kids better listen to their parents) and are offended to find that America holds values that are regarded as outdated and downright wrong.

It would help if both would finally admit that they ARE vastly more different than they currently think they are.

Unfortunately, that's not the their way.

EU and US most come together once more, else we are all going to be fucked by those chinks!!! it's imperative we resolve this issue, i don't want to see the chinks as a superpower, i'd kill myself, WESTERN CIVILIZATION BY FAR IS BETTER THAN THOSE CHINESE BASTARDS, REMEMBER WE ARE STILL EUROPEANS AND THEIR DESCENDANTS WE MUST NOT FIGHT AMONGST OURSELVES, WE MUST FIGHT THIS NEW THREAT, AND FIGHT IT HARSHLY AND SWIFTY.

I hope those bloody governors could think like this, what would become of us if those chinks arise into power? I'd rather not think it

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

With people like you the west is fucked anyway. Western civilization is so much better? I wonder where it's so much better. Let's look at history, shall we?

When gunpowder was discovered, what did the Chinese do with it? Made fireworks... What did the Europeans do with it? Figured out how to kill people with it. Yeah, so much better. Or let's see how long the Chinese language has been around, basically unchanged... and compare that to any European language... Or consider how Sun Tzu wrote his books while the Europeans basically still lived in caves. Or let's look at nowadays... the west has... Britney Spears... Paris Hilton... Micheal Jackson... McDonald's... oh yes... really superior...

Sure, the west took over so many other countries back in the days, and how did the to dit? By force. People there weren't asked, they were just occupied, and by now they got kicked out again. And hey... you may not like it, but I think it's great Hong Kong is back out of British oppression and back home where it belongs.

You jackass are scared of China? God lol. Just wait till Korea unites as free Korea and they get the idea of maybe forming an Asian Economic Union... then you have China, India, Korea, Japan, etc...

And finally... "chinks" is racist, you dumbshit western kid (how old are you anyway, 12? 13?). You'll kill yourself if China turns into a superpower? Why are you still alive then? It's already one. Do everyone a favor and really do it.

If something has to be fought harsh and swiftly, it's idiots like you. FYI, I am of Chinese origin and I think people like that kid should be gassed right away.

With people like you the west is fucked anyway. Western civilization is so much better? I wonder where it's so much better. Let's look at history, shall we?

When gunpowder was discovered, what did the Chinese do with it? Made fireworks... What did the Europeans do with it? Figured out how to kill people with it. Yeah, so much better. Or let's see how long the Chinese language has been around, basically unchanged... and compare that to any European language... Or consider how Sun Tzu wrote his books while the Europeans basically still lived in caves. Or let's look at nowadays... the west has... Britney Spears... Paris Hilton... Micheal Jackson... McDonald's... oh yes... really superior...

Sure, the west took over so many other countries back in the days, and how did the to dit? By force. People there weren't asked, they were just occupied, and by now they got kicked out again. And hey... you may not like it, but I think it's great Hong Kong is back out of British oppression and back home where it belongs.

You jackass are scared of China? God lol. Just wait till Korea unites as free Korea and they get the idea of maybe forming an Asian Economic Union... then you have China, India, Korea, Japan, etc...

And finally... "chinks" is racist, you dumbshit western kid (how old are you anyway, 12? 13?). You'll kill yourself if China turns into a superpower? Why are you still alive then? It's already one. Do everyone a favor and really do it.

If something has to be fought harsh and swiftly, it's idiots like you. FYI, I am of Chinese origin and I think people like that kid should be gassed right away.

British oppression? Eh why the hell is Hong Kong so rich in compariosn to the the rest of China? BTW kudos there shouldnt be any racist comments on the forums.

Sorry "mate", you guys settled the American continent, but it was the colonists who made it what it is today. Who defeated the English in North America? Who is your daddy "mate"?

Our country is falling to pieces? Like your teeth? "Nobody fear you"? Yeah ok, not one nation "fear" us. The Russians will kick our ass in a few years? When? After they can actually feed themselves?

I think you need to leave the pub and go to detox or AA. You have to want to help yourself, "mate".

you make fun of australian slang one more time and i will....do something horrible that the moderators would get angry if i said here.

EU and US most come together once more, else we are all going to be fucked by those chinks!!! it's imperative we resolve this issue, i don't want to see the chinks as a superpower, i'd kill myself, WESTERN CIVILIZATION BY FAR IS BETTER THAN THOSE CHINESE BASTARDS, REMEMBER WE ARE STILL EUROPEANS AND THEIR DESCENDANTS WE MUST NOT FIGHT AMONGST OURSELVES, WE MUST FIGHT THIS NEW THREAT, AND FIGHT IT HARSHLY AND SWIFTY.

I hope those bloody governors could think like this, what would become of us if those chinks arise into power? I'd rather not think it

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Thanks a lot, you just put Europe back about 65 years.

Chinese culture is somewhat old... China didn't survive for millenia by being stupid and weak. I'd not be so sure that western culture is so much better than Chinese culture. Ours is still rather young, compared to them. And the U.S. is a crying baby compared to China.

Thanks a lot, you just put Europe back about 65 years.

Leon, throwbacks are not solely a phenomenon in the US. A good way to measure this in each country is to look at the circulation stats for certain news rags.

In the US, count how many people read National Enquirer or The Star as their newspaper.

In the UK, count how many people read the Sun.

And in Germany, count how many people read Bild.

Then figure that as a percentage of the population. It gives a good estimate of the idiot problem in each country.

Christian fundamentalism isn't healthy, despite what you might have been taught in Sunday school. A comment like that could lead to something of a Spanish Inquisition... In fact, you can expect it.

Then again, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. :p

CONFESS!!! CONFESS!!!!

:confused: I didn't know somthing was wrong with the euro-usa relationship.

I probably should watch the news more often

-snip-
I know, I know.
But I try to hide them wherever I can... ;)