NationStates Jolt Archive

For anyone observing the international scene, it's plain to see that American and European relations are eroding at a frightening rate. As an enlisted member of the U.S. Navy, it's my humble (and hesitant) opinion that the provocative actions of my government are to blame for the growing rift. Why do you think the two sides are at mounting odds and what might be done to restore a sense of empathy?

Well, for starters, the US could stop selling McDonald's in Europe.

The French, in turn, could stop labelling potted meat product as pate.

I honestly couldn't care less. I have nothing against Europeans, it's just that I don't give a rat's red rear about international opinion.

Bush has done the Bull/Chinashop act and we don't like it. That simple. The fact he is then arrogant enough to claim he has 'political capital' is something of a last straw.

Given a moderate leader the US would quickly regain much of what it has lost.

It's another manifestation of the kulturkampf. It was inevitable, what with the increasing secularization of Europe.

I honestly couldn't care less. I have nothing against Europeans, it's just that I don't give a rat's red rear about international opinion.
It is precisely this attitude that we europeans despise so.

Bush has done the Bull/Chinashop act and we don't like it. That simple. The fact he is then arrogant enough to claim he has 'political capital' is something of a last straw.

Given a moderate leader the US would quickly regain much of what it has lost.

Moderate or libertarian! w00t! :D

So the EU won't put up with US bullshit... and exactly how is this a problem?

I haven't a care in the world what the Europeans or anyone else for that matter feels about me or my country.


BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened. I am not speaking for all Europeans of course, All I am saying is that The world preception of the nation in which I reside means shit when they most likely have never even been here.

It is precisely this attitude that we europeans despise so.

I don't think anyone, in any country, should give a crap about what the world thinks of their country

I don't think anyone, in any country, should give a crap about what the world thinks of their country

How very arrogant the world would then be.

I haven't a care in the world what the Europeans or anyone else for that matter feels about me or my country.


BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened. I am not speaking for all Europeans of course, All I am saying is that The world preception of the nation in which I reside means shit when they most likely have never even been here.

That, my friend, is utter rubbish. Please tell me what we have to be jealous of? Is it your enlightened leader? Your great multitude of cultural innovations? Macdonalds? I would just love it if my nation were more like yours where children gun one another down and a moron runs the country.

I don't think anyone, in any country, should give a crap about what the world thinks of their country
I quite agree. IF we all just kept out of each others stuff, the world would be a better place.

It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened.

And the US has a superiority complex as demonstrated by your post.

I haven't a care in the world what the Europeans or anyone else for that matter feels about me or my country.


BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened. I am not speaking for all Europeans of course, All I am saying is that The world preception of the nation in which I reside means shit when they most likely have never even been here.

Here, here!

BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened. I am not speaking for all Europeans of course, All I am saying is that The world preception of the nation in which I reside means shit when they most likely have never even been here.



Yeah, I do believe jealousy is also a major factor. I'm sure we would be jealous if (God forbid!) France was a world power.

I quite agree. IF we all just kept out of each others stuff, the world would be a better place.

Damn straight. I'm sick of the U.S. trying to police the world. We should have diplomatic and commercial relations with all countries, but other than that, we should keep ourselves to ourselves.

I'm sure the current problems will go away once we change admins yet again here in the US.

Here, here!

Surely you mean 'hear, hear'? ;)

That, my friend, is utter rubbish. Please tell me what we have to be jealous of? Is it your enlightened leader? Your great multitude of cultural innovations? Macdonalds? I would just love it if my nation were more like yours where children gun one another down and a moron runs the country.


I think you're jealous of the fact that, despite the many supposed problems you just stated with our country, we're still the only superpower (with China quickly catching up) :D

Damn straight. I'm sick of the U.S. trying to police the world. We should have diplomatic and commercial relations with all countries, but other than that, we should keep ourselves to ourselves.
That would definitely be a good first step.

And the US has a superiority complex as demonstrated by your post.


And Europe, in general, does not?

That would definitely be a good first step.


ISOLATIONISM!!! w00t!

I think you're jealous of the fact that, despite the many supposed problems you just stated with our country, we're still the only superpower (with China quickly catching up) :D

I can assure im not. Youre arrogance appals me. I hope your views do not represent those of all your countrymen. And as for being a world superpower, Britain has been there and done that, and might I add a lot better than you are.

BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened.

The fact that you have a lower life expectancy, worse health care, worse social rights, far more violence, far more chances of dying a violent death, a rubbish two-party system that makes a parody of the notion of democracy, and a population plagued (many, not all) by agressively asserted ignorance and stupidity, means that... no, I'm not jealous. I prefer to stay here where I have much better living conditions, and better democratic, civil and social rights.

If anything, I feel mildly sorry for you.

(By the way, "purely just" is bad English.)

ISOLATIONISM!!! w00t!

No, no, no. Isolationism means completely cutting off oneself from the world. I don't want to isolate the U.S. I have nothing against trade and exchange of embassies.

While it is true that many Americans suffer from an inherently large ego (I can't imagine why), I must emphasize that the big-headed few don't speak for us all. Please keep this in mind when taking sides in this delicate issue.

"The cricket is always louder than the mouse." - Okula

The fact that you have a lower life expectancy, worse health care, worse social rights, far more violence, far more chances of dying a violent death, a rubbish two-party system that makes a parody of the notion of democracy, and a population plagued (many, not all) by agressively asserted ignorance and stupidity, means that... no, I'm not jealous. I prefer to stay here where I have much better living conditions, and better democratic, civil and social rights.

If anything, I feel mildly sorry for you.

(By the way, "purely just" is bad English.)

exactly. You have to remember they cant speak english properly. pity them

I think you're jealous of the fact that, despite the many supposed problems you just stated with our country, we're still the only superpower (with China quickly catching up) :D

Oh not that again. Despite the fact that we refer to ourselves as the only superpower, that hardly carries any weight anymore. As the sole superpower what power do we wield that is so super?

While it is true that many Americans suffer from an inherently large ego (I can't imagine why), I must emphasize that the big-headed few don't speak for us all. Please keep this in mind when taking sides in this delicate issue.


I know that, don't worry. And I'm glad that there are intelligent, open-minded Americans to redeem their country in the eyes of the world.

I think you're jealous of the fact that, despite the many supposed problems you just stated with our country, we're still the only superpower (with China quickly catching up) :D

You aren't a superpower. The government that tells you what to do is a super power.

It's another manifestation of the kulturkampf. It was inevitable, what with the increasing secularization of Europe.

I see it the other way around. It's driven by the US sliding towards theocracy and moral values that are pre 1950s.

One of the reasons Europeans consider the US so arrogant is because Bush comes across that Europe owes the US big time. Europe owes the US, but it should most certainly not be repaid in form of letting the US pump billions into Boeing while Airbus lacks the money to compete. It also doesn't require Europe's Leaders to enter an illegitimate war, especially when the people that elected them are against it.
The problem this leads to is that China can play the EU and US against eachother, possibly resulting in China becoming the world's only Superpower if it is allowed to go much to far. And as badly as the US mismanages the world today, China would be far worse.

While it is true that many Americans suffer from an inherently large ego (I can't imagine why), I must emphasize that the big-headed few don't speak for us all. Please keep this in mind when taking sides in this delicate issue.

"The cricket is always louder than the mouse." - Okula
Yes they do! Bush is the representative of the Americans! And he wants John Bolton to be Ambassador to the UN!

Yes they do! Bush is the representative of the Americans! And he wants John Bolton to be Ambassador to the UN!


So Hitler spoke for all Germans in 1938?

Oh not that again. Despite the fact that we refer to ourselves as the only superpower, that hardly carries any weight anymore. As the sole superpower what power do we wield that is so super?

"Super citizen power?" -- Super Troopers

Ah, what a wonderful film that was. Anyways, I agree with Mr. Psov. The "superpower" label holds no water without a powerful ideaology to contest (i.e., Communism). You're forgetting that the nations of Europe are far from third world, and if truly united, could pose a severe threat to the smug security American's afford themselves through taxes paid to their armed forces. China alone could put us in our place if their standard of living improves significantly...

I see it the other way around. It's driven by the US sliding towards theocracy and moral values that are pre 1950s.


Many of those "radical" values were commonplace way back when. We are not the ones changing, it would be those accusing of us changing who really are.

So Hitler spoke for all Germans in 1938?
Legally speaking, yes. And if you go by what the Allies went for later, yes.

So Hitler spoke for all Germans in 1938?
I'm German and I'm certainly no Bush-Supporter. Nevertheless I do not think that this comparison is appropriate. Hitler's war killed more then 50 Million people. And as much as I detest my ancestors for putting a menance like Hitler in to power - he was elected by the German people.

Yes they do! Bush is the representative of the Americans! And he wants John Bolton to be Ambassador to the UN!

Bolton is a phony. Being a neoconservative NWO pimp, he loves the UN deep down.

I haven't met many Europeans, but I've liked all who I've met so far and I like European culture. The only thing I disagree with is the increasing secularism in some of the countries. However, that's their choice. I hope relations can improve again between America and Europe. I'm excited to be visiting this summer!

Bolton is a phony. Being a neoconservative NWO pimp, he loves the UN deep down.
Ah, if only that were true... :rolleyes:

Ah, if only that were true... :rolleyes:

He's in an internationalist in patriot's clothing.

I'm German and I'm certainly no Bush-Supporter. Nevertheless I do not think that this comparison is appropriate. Hitler's war killed more then 50 Million people. And as much as I detest my ancestors for putting a menance like Hitler in to power - he was elected by the German people.


I was making no attempt to compare the actions of these two leaders. I was just saying, according to the previous logic, Hitler spoke for the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and Mentally Ill, just as Bush, supposedly, speaks for the Liberals, Moderates, and Libertarians.

Legally speaking, yes. And if you go by what the Allies went for later, yes.

No, Hitler didn't speak for all Germans. He spoke for a very militant but very small minority.

I haven't a care in the world what the Europeans or anyone else for that matter feels about me or my country.


BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened. I am not speaking for all Europeans of course, All I am saying is that The world preception of the nation in which I reside means shit when they most likely have never even been here.
I've been in the US. Most Americans don't even have a passport, let alone have visited Europe. Your point? :p

I was making no attempt to compare the actions of these two leaders. I was just saying, according to the previous logic, Hitler spoke for the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and Mentally Ill, just as Bush, supposedly, speaks for the Liberals, Moderates, and Libertarians.

I think you were. Plus Hitler never claimed to represent justice and freedom the way America wrongly does today.

No, Hitler didn't speak for all Germans. He spoke for a very militant but very small minority.
He didn't express the opinions of any dissenters and certainly provided no platform for them to be heard, but legally speaking, he was the representative of all Germans and therefore spoke for them.

He didn't express the opinions of any dissenters and certainly provided no platform for them to be heard, but legally speaking, he was the representative of all Germans and therefore spoke for them.

Legally, maybe, but no, he didn't speak for all Germans. Most Germans weren't able to see through him until it was too late. Just like many Americans can't see through Bush.

Legally, maybe, but no, he didn't speak for all Germans. Most Germans weren't able to see through him until it was too late. Just like many Americans can't see through Bush.
Look, from a moral standpoint, he did not, from a legal standpoint, he did. He was the representative of the German people. Hitler was Germany to the world similarly how Bush is the US to the world, as any world leader represents his country. Bush officially speaks for me and all the other US citizens as Hitler spoke for the Germans.

why is it that the majority of the americans who have joined this thread semm to only confirm our worst suspicions about their country?

Look, from a moral standpoint, he did not, from a legal standpoint, he did. He was the representative of the German people. Hitler was Germany to the world similarly how Bush is the US to the world, as any world leader represents his country. Bush officially speaks for me and all the other US citizens as Hitler spoke for the Germans.
Does that mean I'm morally obligated as an American to defend Bush's decisions even if I'm in complete disagreement with them? I hope not.

Since his administration came into power, constitutional privacy has all but vanished. Neighbors are encouraged to spy on one-another. Electronic communications are monitored extensively. It's a mess. His draconian policies have forced me to surrender my conservative-by-comparison label of "Democrat" in a full push for Libertarianism. And I don't think I'm the only one. Perhaps his actions are necessary before Americans realize how unhappy they've become?

I think you were. Plus Hitler never claimed to represent justice and freedom the way America wrongly does today.

Worse yet i see our Foreign Relations department trying to make us seem like the sole example of freedom in the world, when in fact, we have become so ignorant we fail to realize the hypocracy of our leadership. I am seriously considering abandoning my US citizenship and joining the French Foreign Legion.

why is it that the majority of the americans who have joined this thread semm to only confirm our worst suspicions about their country?
Because the majority of them are like this and we are completely justified in being suspicious of their motives? :p Spreading freedom and democracy... my ass.

wheres the i hate US intervention option or leave europe alone

That EU relations with the EU are degrading at an alarming rate:

EU summit budget deal 'unlikely':
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4094720.stm

Italy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4070668.stm

Germany:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4082610.stm

France & Netherlands just say "No!"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4607955.stm

Ein Deutscher']Because the majority of them are like this and we are completely justified in being suspicious of their motives? :p Spreading freedom and democracy... my ass.
Oh good, so its not just me then. It appears that there is a pattern emerging, one of non-americans not impressed by americans. Perhaps this serves to illustrate the way many feel about you. Perhaps this will show you that you have gone wrong somewhere when considering how to treat the rest of humanity.

why is it that the majority of the americans who have joined this thread semm to only confirm our worst suspicions about their country?
Suspicions? What suspicions?

If your referring to a boisterous lack of self-effacement or sensical debate, you're out of luck. Those intelligent enough to understand the gravity of the situation tend to oppose the current majority. Most Americans see how the world's citizens despise the U.S. government, and project that hatred upon our freedom-loving ideals (which have ironically been quite corrupted by the powers that be).

I suppose we just don't take criticism that well.

That EU relations with the EU are degrading at an alarming rate:

EU summit budget deal 'unlikely':
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4094720.stm

Italy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4070668.stm

Germany:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4082610.stm

France & Netherlands just say "No!"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4607955.stm
I'd support an end to the Euro and an end to the EU as a new superstate. I am ok with an economic union like the ECC was, but the complete merger of all European countries is impossible. If I was German chancellor, I'd pull us out of the EU, stop our payments and watch as the thing collapses, causing unemployment for thousands of technocrats sitting on their fat parlamentarian asses in Brussels. :mad:

Damn this thread is scary. It seems every time I manage to convince myself not all Americans are complete loons, they go prove me wrong.

I wonder, where's the poll option to say "Fark off stupid rednecks!"?

What makes me upset is that Neighbors have to keep a close eye on one of each other! See when we moved into TX I as a person saw people look through the window of their houses and they still do!
I don't know if thats a policy in this town or policy in this State and I don't like one bit! Since the 60's-80's, people had conversation with one with each other without FEAR!!! But now I think the only people I talk to is my roommates in College, my girlfriend, and my family. Its been changing over the years.

I miss the old days! :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :gundge: :headbang:

That, my friend, is utter rubbish. Please tell me what we have to be jealous of? Is it your enlightened leader? Your great multitude of cultural innovations? Macdonalds? I would just love it if my nation were more like yours where children gun one another down and a moron runs the country.

ditto

Ein Deutscher']I'd support an end to the Euro and an end to the EU as a new superstate. I am ok with an economic union like the ECC was, but the complete merger of all European countries is impossible. If I was German chancellor, I'd pull us out of the EU, stop our payments and watch as the thing collapses, causing unemployment for thousands of technocrats sitting on their fat parlamentarian asses in Brussels. :mad:

I personally would like to see a USE.
Unfortunately, it'd be nearly impossible to do, as it'd require countries giving up sovereignty, which no one seems to want.

My guess is that we'll see a prosperous Africa before we see a European Superstate.

Damn this thread is scary. It seems every time I manage to convince myself not all Americans are complete loons, they go prove me wrong.

I wonder, where's the poll option to say "Fark off stupid rednecks!"?

That was extremely insulting considering i have been arguing on behalf of the International Community since i got involved in the General forums, and I resent that you would say ALL Americans are complete loons, this is the attitude of most of Ignorant America that makes europe so furious with us, and there is no reason to mirror it.

I can assure im not. Youre arrogance appals me. I hope your views do not represent those of all your countrymen. And as for being a world superpower, Britain has been there and done that, and might I add a lot better than you are.

For several hundered years can I add

And is still as high as it needs to be in the world

Damn this thread is scary. It seems every time I manage to convince myself not all Americans are complete loons, they go prove me wrong.

I wonder, where's the poll option to say "Fark off stupid rednecks!"?

It's right next to the one that says "Get away from me, greenhorn!" :rolleyes:

fist i want to say that hitler did spoke for a large part of the german people, like 80%. dont underestimate that, hitler promised (and brougth) work, so he was very popular.

secondly i complete support the idea of a united Europe. only i think it will never become united, its to divided all the time. the nation interests are to big.

third i think that while europe is getting more and more liberal (with the dutch leading) the US are still conservative, and thats the problem, the different in politics and ideas.

Originally Posted by Carops
I can assure im not. Youre arrogance appals me. I hope your views do not represent those of all your countrymen. And as for being a world superpower, Britain has been there and done that, and might I add a lot better than you are.

For several hundered years can I add

And is still as high as it needs to be in the world

Rhetoric of a has been. The goal is to be #1 boys & girls. Why do you think the French "de-Anglicise" words? Why the Russians clung to Mir way past it was safe? Why the British routinely lambast their own PM as a "Bush lapdog"?

No one likes to not be on top. It's the way of the world.

fist i want to say that hitler did spoke for a large part of the german people, like 80%. dont underestimate that, hitler promised (and brougth) work, so he was very popular.

secondly i complete support the idea of a united Europe. only i think it will never become united, its to divided all the time. the nation interests are to big.

third i think that while europe is getting more and more liberal (with the dutch leading) the US are still conservative, and thats the problem, the different in politics and ideas.

I disagree, i see the division of the Eu-Us Alliance as a cultural
misunderstanding, something that both societies need to try to
sort out, and stop buying in to the stereotypes and personal
attacks that they have been for the last few years. A difference
in Politics is hardly noticed by the majority of Ignorant America
and therefore is ignored by their European counterparts.

That EU relations with the EU are degrading at an alarming rate:

EU summit budget deal 'unlikely':
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4094720.stm

Italy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4070668.stm

Germany:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4082610.stm

France & Netherlands just say "No!"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4607955.stm


EU relations always had spikes, of either Europhilia or Europhobia. Historically, we gave two steps forward, one backwards. It seems that this is a step backwards, but the project of the EU is still strong, mainly because most disagreements are not about the existence of the EU, but its directions. All in all, it is likely that things will not advance until some years from now, when the economies start recovering and a new generation of politicians is elected, since most of them that are in power in the various European nations are in a downward circle, more preocupied in holding their power in their nation, than building a good Union. That justifies for example, both Britain and France positions in the budget deals, and all other countries: Money is short, and when money is short, everyone is concerned about their own purse.

It's another manifestation of the kulturkampf. It was inevitable, what with the increasing secularization of Europe.


What we dont allow our governmental institutions to be run by acient superstitions .... oh bad us

I disagree, i see the division of the Eu-Us Alliance as a cultural
misunderstanding, something that both societies need to try to
sort out, and stop buying in to the stereotypes and personal
attacks that they have been for the last few years. A difference
in Politics is hardly noticed by the majority of Ignorant America
and therefore is ignored by their European counterparts.
Well put. I'm moving to Italy later this year (nevermind why) and I could certainly do without the hateful glances I anticipate, simply because I'm from a country currently puppeted by a Cowboy in Armani.

So this is a thread about how the EU and the US are getting along (or not getting along for that matter) and again every second one is a lecturing professor about German history. (Godwin's calling... pick up the phone!)

Be that as it may, I've always had good relations with folks from the US and I spent a lot of time visiting.

I will not get into detail of how I perceive "my" American stereotypical person, yet I can't help to voice some concerns of what's going on right now.

1st: Spreading Freedom & Democracy while disregarding International Law and using Lies and false evidence will rarely get you applause from the rest of the world.

2nd: If the US indeed didn't care about the rest of the world, it should stop considering ROW as a market place to sell all their stuff. What the US does on this planet only serves one purpose: self-interest.

3rd: I'm not too happy about the current EU situation (internal quarrels) and I'm more than displeased about the US always talking about Turkey as a memberstate of the EU. If you're so fucking fond of them, why don't you make them your 52nd state. After you made Puerto Rico number 51. Oh? You want to decide that for yourselves? Ah. See?

4th: Hopefully, one day many Americans will wake up and then go WTF has been going on in this country? What have we become? How did some American citizen put it last year I met him in California? "Welcome to the Empire"...

Rhetoric of a has been. The goal is to be #1 boys & girls. Why do you think the French "de-Anglicise" words? Why the Russians clung to Mir way past it was safe? Why the British routinely lambast their own PM as a "Bush lapdog"?

No one likes to not be on top. It's the way of the world.

Actually the french de-anglicise words because, despite their faults, are a very proud nation and resent English becoming the world tongue and wish to preserve their own history and culture. As america has no real history or culture other than that of the over-patriotic morons who preach all that is great and good about it with healthy does of bigotry and ignorance.
Russians also clung onto the mir because it was a symbol of their culture, something of which many of them are proud.
And as for the British attitude to Tony Blair being a lap-dog, I think you'll find many regar him as such because they loath your nation's abrupt and hostile foriegn policy and criticise him for standing against our values of peace. This has nothing to do with you being a superpower and us not. We shall see who is judged better in the future when America's actions have turned Islam against the western world and ruined racial unity.
But you know if you dont like it, you could always invade us. This seems to be your answer for most things

Meh!

Don't see it. I was recently in France and didn't get my face smacked. Much chiding over the fact I couldn't eat dairy products.

I view the relationship more as siblings bitching at each other.

Damn the money though.

Lost 1/4 of my monetary value in France and close to 1/2 in the UK. :eek:

If they hate us then they should like that fact as it will keep the dirty Americans away. ;)

I haven't a care in the world what the Europeans or anyone else for that matter feels about me or my country.


BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened. I am not speaking for all Europeans of course, All I am saying is that The world preception of the nation in which I reside means shit when they most likely have never even been here.


Thats another thing that Europeans and the rest of the world really hates, the idea of superiority, for example

A few years back my father was MD of a firm in the UK which was part of a large group of seven companies the base of the group was in the US, my dad was offered a post as the CEO of the whole group, this meant that out whole family would have to move to somewhere near indianapolis, he was offered american citizenship for the whole family, he turned the job down and the owners of the group counldn't believe that there was someone in the world who would turn down american citizenship, this is the sort of attitude that I think america needs to shed if its ever going to be taken seriously ....... I still wonder what it'd have been like if he'd have taken the job though, I'd have just gone through high school, hmmmm, not to mention the salary which was in the $300,000 ballpark which is a hell of a lot more than he gets now ... lol

I disagree, i see the division of the Eu-Us Alliance as a cultural
misunderstanding, something that both societies need to try to
sort out, and stop buying in to the stereotypes and personal
attacks that they have been for the last few years. A difference
in Politics is hardly noticed by the majority of Ignorant America
and therefore is ignored by their European counterparts.

im afraid that the stereotypes are made stronger by the media. what we see of the us are images of crimes, race conflicts (black and white) etc etc. thats a pity, and isnt helping in this conflict.

secondly, which cultural different. oke, americans are using it big, but arent americans just europeans? only the US culture is being stereotyped by the media, and i dont see how it really is in the US. so i cant really say something about that.

and when you say there are cultural differences between the us and the eu, maybe you should also look inside the us, i believe even there, there are cultural differences.

im afraid that the stereotypes are made stronger by the media. what we see of the us are images of crimes, race conflicts (black and white) etc etc. thats a pity, and isnt helping in this conflict.

secondly, which cultural different. oke, americans are using it big, but arent americans just europeans? only the US culture is being stereotyped by the media, and i dont see how it really is in the US. so i cant really say something about that.

and when you say there are cultural differences between the us and the eu, maybe you should also look inside the us, i believe even there, there are cultural differences.
To your point about the media, i totally agree, all i have to do is check the NY times, or the Washington post once a week and i will find a political cartoon ridiculing France and or Germany. The Anti French sentiment in the United States has reached absurd proportions due mostly to the media, which was quick to cling to the phrase coined by Congressman Walter Jones "Freedom Fries." it's truely apalling.

... america has no real history or culture other than that of the over-patriotic morons who preach all that is great and good about it with healthy does of bigotry and ignorance ... if you dont like it, you could always invade us. This seems to be your answer for most things

Cartoons may be our only native art form, by golly, but we love 'em all the same!

Seriously, we may not have much to call our own, culturally speaking. We're still human all the same. Everyone needs something to take pride in, or the very act of living becomes a pointless exercise.

I'm friends with a man called Mark. He was an exchange student from Germany here to attend high school in the States (weird, right?). In our first few weeks of friendship, the curious subject of patriotism arose. He couldn't grasp the concept of national pride, despite his best efforts. "How can you be proud of a country, just because you live there?" he asked. It was a very good question. My friend and I struggled to answer it without spouting a programmed response. We could only compare the notion to the loyalty one might have to a local sports team. Still, Mark had difficulty making the connection. Growing up east of The Wall might well have done something to his patriotic capacity, but it really makes you appreciate how citizenship is nothing more than a roll of the dice.

I haven't a care in the world what the Europeans or anyone else for that matter feels about me or my country.


BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened. I am not speaking for all Europeans of course, All I am saying is that The world preception of the nation in which I reside means shit when they most likely have never even been here.

Jelousy???? :confused: :confused: . Youre wrong mate, just give a peek to history, who were the ones that conquered America and make what now it is? :rolleyes:
- The Europeans :eek: (POrtuguese, english, french, spanish, etc.). So, Whos your daddy, mate? huh, tell me. :D :D

You yankees are proud of your own misfortune, i mean, look at your country its falling in pieces its a shame worldwide, nobody fear you, youll see that in some years even the russians will kick your ass, :mp5: :cool: . So throw away that meanless proud and starting using your head! and thats to you all!

And if somebody asks you Whos your daddy? (you shall answer) The Europeans. JUst think about it! Think if you can.

Jelousy???? :confused: :confused: . Youre wrong mate, just give a peek to history, who were the ones that conquered America and make what now it is? :rolleyes:
- The Europeans :eek: (POrtuguese, english, french, spanish, etc.). So, Whos your daddy, mate? huh, tell me. :D :D

You yankees are proud of your own misfortune, i mean, look at your country its falling in pieces its a shame worldwide, nobody fear you, youll see that in some years even the russians will kick your ass, :mp5: :cool: . So throw away that meanless proud and starting using your head! and thats to you all!

And if somebody asks you Whos your daddy? (you shall answer) The Europeans. JUst think about it! Think if you can.


Sorry "mate", you guys settled the American continent, but it was the colonists who made it what it is today. Who defeated the English in North America? Who is your daddy "mate"?

Our country is falling to pieces? Like your teeth? "Nobody fear you"? Yeah ok, not one nation "fear" us. The Russians will kick our ass in a few years? When? After they can actually feed themselves?

I think you need to leave the pub and go to detox or AA. You have to want to help yourself, "mate".

I haven't a care in the world what the Europeans or anyone else for that matter feels about me or my country.


BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened. I am not speaking for all Europeans of course, All I am saying is that The world preception of the nation in which I reside means shit when they most likely have never even been here.

Jelousy???? :confused: :confused: . Youre wrong mate, just give a peek to history, who were the ones that conquered America and make what now it is? :rolleyes:
- The Europeans :eek: (POrtuguese, english, french, spanish, etc.). So, Whos your daddy, mate? huh, tell me. :D :D

You yankees are proud of your own misfortune, i mean, look at your country its falling in pieces its a shame worldwide, nobody fear you, youll see that in some years even the russians will kick your ass, :mp5: :cool: . So throw away that meanless proud and starting using your head! and thats to you all!

And if somebody asks you Whos your daddy? (you shall answer) The Europeans. JUst think about it! Think if you can.


Another Generalization that fails to recognize the fact that presently some Americans realize this already, and thus resent the fact that you assume automatically that because of our place of birth we are all similarly ignorant.
Ignorance is forgiveable, Arrogance is inexcusable.

Cartoons may be our only native art form, by golly, but we love 'em all the same!

Seriously, we may not have much to call our own, culturally speaking. We're still human all the same. Everyone needs something to take pride in, or the very act of living becomes a pointless exercise.

I'm friends with a man called Mark. He was an exchange student from Germany here to attend high school in the States (weird, right?). In our first few weeks of friendship, the curious subject of patriotism arose. He couldn't grasp the concept of national pride, despite his best efforts. "How can you be proud of a country, just because you live there?" he asked. It was a very good question. My friend and I struggled to answer it without spouting a programmed response. We could only compare the notion to the loyalty one might have to a local sports team. Still, Mark had difficulty making the connection. Growing up east of The Wall might well have done something to his patriotic capacity, but it really makes you appreciate how citizenship is nothing more than a roll of the dice.

I can't help but feeling that this is one of the major differences.
Not that there aren't Europeans who would be proud of their country (to this day, I fail to understand why, but ok), and many Europeans are religious as well.
But these sentiments are private, very very private.

You don't sing you national anthem, except before football matches. And a football match is also the only excuse for openly showing your flag. Well, either that or you live in a government building. If you would hang a flag outside your house (in Germany for example) you risk the neighbours calling the police on you cause they might mistake you for a Nazi. If you sing the national anthem, people would consider you either retarded or drunk.
You ARE in that nation, you live there, you work there, you speak the language and so does everybody else. No need to go round parading it, everybody knows.

More or less the same about religion. Very very very private matter. You talk about it to close friends and maybe family, you might get into theological discussion on a scientific basis, but you don't get emotional about it in public.
You either pray in church, or you pray silently for yourself, but you don't pray loud and in public. It embarasses Europeans no end if Americans do it (and I'm Catholic).
You don't try to convince others of your religion, you don't open the door if it's Jehova's witnesses, you smile about those young mormons in their funny dark suits that try to involve you into a discussion about your faith.

How to compare those feelings? Europeans feel toward loud and open display of patriotism or religion as you would feel towards a nacked man on the bus.

Originally Posted by Scarlet Blades
I haven't a care in the world what the Europeans or anyone else for that matter feels about me or my country.
BTW: It's purely just jelousy. They have always had a need to be better than the United States. It just has never happened. I am not speaking for all Europeans of course, All I am saying is that The world preception of the nation in which I reside means shit when they most likely have never even been here.

That's why they hate us. Far too many in this country think we can and should have the right to do whatever the f--- we want to whomever the f--- we want, and let's bomb anyone who disagrees. American hubris and arrogance in action. Well, let me assure all the Europeans, etc. on this site that not all of us Americans feel this way.

Sorry "mate", you guys settled the American continent, but it was the colonists who made it what it is today. Who defeated the English in North America? Who is your daddy "mate"?

Oh! Miss! Pick Me! Here! Miss!... the European settlers and their offspring?

Oh! Miss! Pick Me! Here! Miss!... the European settlers and their offspring?


We broke away from Europe, you know that whole Independence thing? We were no longer slaves to our European masters, and had created a new nation, different from any in Europe at that time.

Well, that's good. I'm sorry I didn't reply to the inane post your inane post was a reply to. That was bad from me. Keep on duking it out you people (unfortunately my tribe never had colonies). I'm off.

*so the answer was wrong?*

EDIT: (and I pretty much agree with you in most parts of your posts)

(unfortunately my tribe never had colonies)

Why not wuss?

Why not wuss?
I think the tribal elders decided it wasn't worth the fuss to go and re-conquer NA in the late 1600's. It would have strained our budding cell-phone business too much, I guess.

I think the tribal elders decided it wasn't worth the fuss to go and re-conquer NA in the late 1600's. It would have strained our budding cell-phone business too much, I guess.

Well you did miss out on all of that corn and free negro labor. :(

We broke away from Europe, you know that whole Independence thing? We were no longer slaves to our European masters, and had created a new nation, different from any in Europe at that time.

and nearly end up speaking German if I recall correctly

I believe that this "resentment" is a ture lack of understanding. We (Americans) actually do hang flags outside our doors and say the pledge of allegiance everyday. So the statement relating to no patriotism is totally incorrect.

I truly like most Europeans as i have visited france,germany,italy,britain,and czech rep. I even speak most of the European languages . :)

For the most part, we are not ignorant bastards who want to police the world. Some of us who have children and are in the corporate world actually care about the world for the sake of the younger ones. Just because we have a difference in opinion on how a nation should be run, doesnt mean we should hack at the others way and call it "rubbish".

Perosnally, i hate the media. It only informs us the "bad" things rather than all the great things in the world. I am also conservative. "GASP!" Just because i actually do support my government doesnt mean i agree with everything it does.

I can only hope for the sake of the world that this "resentment" will go away in time as we are able to understand each other with a better frame of mind. I love America, i can raise a child and practice any belief i want. I also know that my child is safe and can live a meaningul,intellingent life. Please dont accuse all Americans as being "ignorant" just because the few speak up and the media tells you so.
Oui, je parle francaise et j'adore les tarts.

Meh... I don't know.

I mean, I am american by accident of birth, and I love Europe. When I'm older, I'll probably emigrate. In general I dislike the USA, but I don't really see a reason the two cannot be friends. We have different ideas of what democracy is, of what social support to offer, and other things, but in general, if you cut through the ignorance and fear on both sides, you will find very similar people, with the same needs and the same fears. That fact is true of most nations.

However, I'm not sure how likely this rift is to heal. Any rift before was quickly ignored because Europe and the USA were strongly allied against the USSR. Without the USSR, and with China and India(the other rising superpowers) not being scary aggressive, banging shoes on podiums and the like, there is no common threat. You could argue the threat is terrorism, but that I fear was destroyed as a possibility with the War on Iraq. Pres. Bush seems unlikely to make even small concessions that might heal the rift. The attitudes of Americans as well is lending itself to this rift. living in the US, I know very well that at least here in NC, there are a large (or vocal) group of people who feel that America is all that and a bag of chips, the only truly free nation on earth, and who see Europeans as, to quote a guy I know, "smelly jealous commie bastards." The general attitude may not be that extreme, but I know that serious, deep pride in the nation and belief in the superiority of the US is common enough.

As to Europe, I haven't been there in a few years, but during my several visits, and the two years I lived there as a child, I cannot remember that much anti-american sentiment, except that in general, acting tourist-y and mispronouncing the French language were sure get on people's nerves. In terms of EU policy, hostility seems to be more of a reaction to things the US has done. The war in Iraq, again, didn't help, regardless of how you feel it may or may not have been justified. The overwhelming sentiment in most European nations was that the war was not. The fact that the US went to the UN, were vetoed, and went anyway also struck a nerve. In general, coyboyist diplomacy is not well liked. On top of that, when americans give the impression that they don't give a crap about what Europe has to say is like telling them that they are unimportant, defunct nations that hold no weight when compared to the US. That's an ego blow to any nation, and in general unjustified conisdering how culturally, historically, economically and though not often shown, miltarilly significant most European nations are.

I'd say that both sides need to drop the ignorance and stereotyping, but America does need to watch it's actions a little. A wise foreign policy takes into account not only the bilateral effect, but the international effect. America with it's admitted power is like a really big guy in a shop. He may be able to beat people up, but his size means that he should be extra careful when moving around lest he start breaking things. I don't think the relationship is doomed, but it may take a little work. That's my 2 cents, I hope it was cogent enough.

In answer to the original question...

Every seen Family members argue? More often than not, a couple brothers will just damn-near kill each other over some minor thing or another. This doesn't mean they don't care about one another, it just means they're arguing.
That's the U.S. and Europe, for the most part.

I can almost guarantee that if Europe got into some kind of serious trouble, the U.S. would come-a-running to help, and vice-versa. Of course, it's harder to find something like "Serious Trouble" for the Americans to get into that hasn't already impacted Europe hard-core, but...

You also have to remember that unlike Parlaimentary systems, the American Government effectively changes hands in fairly radical shifts every four to eight years. GWB's foreign policy is radically different from Bill Clinton's, which was different significantly from Ronald Reagan or George Senior, and Reagan's was 180 off of Jimmy Carter.

This makes us difficult to predict and that makes most non-US type folks a little nervous. (Big gun+Bipolar+Rich enough to be "Eccentric" instead of "Crazy as a shithouse rat"=nervous neighbours...)

And it should. Honestly, it's good to see Europe taking some initiative to take over some of the roles the U.S. has served in their sphere for the last fifty years, now that the Cold War is over.

One of the things you have to also remember, is that the U.S. is made up of all the dangerous folks the European nations didn't want. Ethnic, Religious, and Social minorities, violent people, etc. formed the core of our dominant population. Naturally we're going to reflect some or all of those traits at one point or another. Kind of the "Black Sheep" of the family. We have problems nobody else has, and solutions that work elsewhere don't necessarily work here. It's the nature of the beast for Europeans to be a bit embarassed by us, disturbed by our actions, and outright scandalized by our attitudes. This does not mean that there will be a serious (read: Violent) split. it just means that to a certain extent, there will always be both mutual hostility, and mutual admiration.

a "Love/Hate" on a pendulum, swinging towards "Hate" then back to "Love" depending on what's currently en-vogue.

Euros didn't mind American Power when it was used to bring Serbia into line in the 1990's, but they object to a similar action taken against Iraq today- Part of it, is that the Iraq operation cost them a juicy Oil contract and uncovered some malfeasance while cock-blockiing some of their corporations.
big deal. so what. Europe's more dependent on imports for their petrol than the U.S. by sheer geology, it's either the former soviets, or hte Arabs (the North Sea is a poorer oilpatch than central Nebraska, and more difficult and expensive to exploit.)

Most of the wars the U.S. fought in the 20th Century benefitted Euro interests either directly, or indirectly, up to and including the Cold War. The Soviets were never in a condition to invade North America-but Germany, France, Italy? they can drive there, no need for Amphibious ops at all, much less trans-oceanic Amphibious operations.

The U.S. was in Vietnam at all because of choices that placed European interests over American interests-choices made in 1946 under Truman. We could have supported Ho-Chi-Minh over DeGaulle, and France could have done nothing except sign the papers at the time-and we had what would be today a strong moral justification to do so.

WWI was all about American support for European nations.

in WWII, Our involvement as part of the coalition against Hitler is well-documented and often a source of pride here-even today.

U.S. forces in Lebanon were there to supplement European forces. France pulled out and we left right-behind-them, we didn't have any national interest in going except to support our allies.

Kuwaiti Oil exports were primarily directed to the Continent of Europe, we could just as easily let Saddam dictate oil-prices and reopened our own domestic supplies (or invested in the gulf of mexico, mexican oil, and Venezuela if we really wanted to... or sent more money north to Canada.) most of which were concrete-capped in the late 1970's.

Further, the U.S. changed its FAA regs to allow Airbus to compete with Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, and Boeing, effectively crippling the first two and damaging the third to allow a European Jobs-programme to gain a foothold in the aviation market. We didn't have to do this, either.

Europe, for their part, have been (until recently) pretty generous in their trade-policies with the U.S., and have almost always made an effort to be good strategic partners. Much of this was due to the threat of Soviet invasion-see, the Americans might be loud, rude, and come across as a bit ignorant, but they don't shoot you for opposing their policies or roll tanks through protestors, and they generally leave your domestic life alone.

I think what most Europeans mean when they tell America to get their shit together is: Yankees please control that vicious pitbull or yours known as the South and get those midwestern farmers back in line. And I couldn't agree more. America's been hijacked by rural values and it's really screwed up our country.

The rest of the world is getting a taste of Southern politics. You know, those states who fought for the right to have slaves and who lived in apartheid until only 40 years ago. So now you know all what the rest of us Americans have had to live with all these years. :rolleyes:

Actually the french de-anglicise words because, despite their faults, are a very proud nation and resent English becoming the world tongue and wish to preserve their own history and culture.

Russians also clung onto the mir because it was a symbol of their culture, something of which many of them are proud.

(Please forgive the slight re-ordering of your post)
Bingo. Prestige fuels nations/states. And the US, for good or ill, has more than anyone else. My point stands: the race among nations is to be first, and that means first in most everything (space, sport, finance, whatever...).

That the French don't adopt words as the English speaking world does (ie: kindergarten is wholly adopted as a word. There are thousands like it), and that Russia clung to a piece of space glory (and rained it down on some Aussies) bear it out. That the UK "is high enough in the world as it should be" is a comp -- one must never limit oneself!

As america has no real history or culture other than that of the over-patriotic morons who preach all that is great and good about it with healthy does of bigotry and ignorance.

Now that's unfair & somewhat insulting...
Are you saying that the US didn't build a Panamanian Canal? Stood up to the Barbary Coast Pirates? The Marshall Plan? Came to the aid of the Allies in two world wars? Was the birthplace of Jazz? Rock & Roll? How about Hollywood? The works of Twain, Hemmingway, Poe & Emerson? ...I'm not saying the US is perfect, but come on now... :)

And as for the British attitude to Tony Blair being a lap-dog, I think you'll find many regar him as such because they loath your nation's abrupt and hostile foriegn policy and criticise him for standing against our values of peace.

So you'd prefer another Chamberlain? How many times must Czechoslovakia have to be given away?? :(
Peace at any price is not peace, it is slavery.
Values of peace?!? Since WW2 the UK has been in as much combat as the US!

This has nothing to do with you being a superpower and us not. We shall see who is judged better in the future when America's actions have turned Islam against the western world and ruined racial unity.
But you know if you dont like it, you could always invade us. This seems to be your answer for most things

Perhaps, perhaps. Or, Islam will rid itself of the radicals that are ruining their way of life. Just as Europe rid itself of ruling Monarchs after WW1...

Fly some planes into buildings and kill 3000 people, and it's possible.
(Seriously: that's a very glib statement you made...)

I think what most Europeans mean when they tell America to get their shit together is: Yankees please control that vicious pitbull or yours known as the South and get those midwestern farmers back in line. And I couldn't agree more. America's been hijacked by rural values and it's really screwed up our country.

The rest of the world is getting a taste of Southern politics. You know, those states who fought for the right to have slaves and who lived in apartheid until only 40 years ago. So now you know all what the rest of us Americans have had to live with all these years. :rolleyes:

I had no idea that Ohio, Alaska and Florida were slavin' states. :rolleyes:

I had no idea that Ohio, Alaska and Florida were slavin' states. :rolleyes:

Nor Kansas, Colorado, Utah, Nebraska... then agian, he may be a product of American Public Education, and not know that the Confederacy was only 11 states in the southeast, and not every-single-state-in-flyover-country, plus the wildlife-reserve-with-a-tiny-state-attached known as Alaska. (Poor Alaska, less privately held land than Pennsylvania...)

The astonishing amount of arrogance demonstrated by both Americans and Europeans in this topic is really depressing.

While it is true that many Americans suffer from an inherently large ego (I can't imagine why),US children have one omnipresent world-History teacher...its called Hollywood...

and US history teachers are unwilling to set the record straight.

The astonishing amount of arrogance demonstrated by both Americans and Europeans in this topic is really depressing.

I would like to second that

I would like to second that
Why don't you then?

Why don't you then?
It's clear that Mr. Psov belongs to either camp, and it wouldn't behoove him to admit any degree of arrogance. ;)

Who defeated the English in North America?


THE 40,000 fuckin French troops that joined you against 10,000 of Britain troops and the French Navy that surrounded us at sea now that you mention it

THE 40,000 fuckin French troops that joined you against 10,000 of Britain troops and the French Navy that surrounded us at sea now that you mention it

Source for those numbers?

Source for those numbers?


Will have it here at sum point 2morrow, its too late to find it again now

THE 40,000 f****n French troops that joined you against 10,000 of Britain troops and the French Navy that surrounded us at sea now that you mention it
He's right, you know... although I'd hate to agree with someone who finds it necessary to swear. American indepence was won because of the generous assistance of the French. Let's not forget that the Statue of Liberty was a centennial gift from the good people of France in celebration of that achievement. What a wonderful gesture... Nations just don't do things like that for eachother anymore. It's always quid-pro-quo now. The gift is dead.

Iraq will win democracy -- at the expense of their natural resources.

It's clear that Mr. Psov belongs to either camp, and it wouldn't behoove him to admit any degree of arrogance. ;)
A-ha. Me, being campless, can freely say that both camps can lick my big hairy balls. One of these utterly useless "aiming to understand" threads again. Aimed at people who don't want to understand. We here in this forum are more like: "As long as we can even TRY to make it someone elses fault".

Great start though.

EDIT: This is why drunken people shouldn't have a say. Ignore me.

He's right, you know... although I'd hate to agree with someone who finds it necessary to swear. American indepence was won because of the generous assistance of the French. Let's not forget that the Statue of Liberty was a centennial gift from the good people of France in celebration of that achievement. What a wonderful gesture... Nations just don't do things like that for eachother anymore. It's always quid-pro-quo now. The gift is dead.

Iraq will win democracy -- at the expense of their natural resources.


I would tend to dissagree on that one. The United States was helped alot by the French, and They probably shortended the war by several years. But, in my opinion, the Americans would have eventually won independance. Just like the normandy invasions of WWII. It shortened the war, but it would have been won without it.

As far as the Statue of Liberty goes, yes, noone gives without expecting to get something back these days. Sad.

It's clear that Mr. Psov belongs to either camp, and it wouldn't behoove him to admit any degree of arrogance. ;)

I have not sided with either "camp" i have simply said that i think the decline of Euro-American relations is a complex misunderstanding, and that it would suit both sides to settle down and realize that the established stereotypes on both sides of the Atlantic aren't necessarily a good generalization for reference.

I have not sided with either "camp" i have simply said that i think the decline of Euro-American relations is a complex misunderstanding, and that it would suit both sides to settle down and realize that the established stereotypes on both sides of the Atlantic aren't necessarily a good generalization for reference.


hear, hear!

*chug*

He's right, you know... although I'd hate to agree with someone who finds it necessary to swear. American indepence was won because of the generous assistance of the French. Let's not forget that the Statue of Liberty was a centennial gift from the good people of France in celebration of that achievement. What a wonderful gesture... Nations just don't do things like that for eachother anymore. It's always quid-pro-quo now. The gift is dead.

Iraq will win democracy -- at the expense of their natural resources.
And imagine how huge a sand castle the Iraqis will ship for you in 2105!?! HUGE castle that!

I have not sided with either "camp" i have simply said that i think the decline of Euro-American relations is a complex misunderstanding, and that it would suit both sides to settle down and realize that the established stereotypes on both sides of the Atlantic aren't necessarily a good generalization for reference.
Aah, I was only joking about your seemingly noncommittal motion to second a comment! :D I completely agree with you about this collossal misunderstanding business. Unfortunately, there are enough stereotypes in everyday use to keep us Americans busy picking at eachother. A parade of internal ethnic and cultural differences will exist for hundreds if not thousands of years more. To hope that someday we'll let ourselves abandon these ridiculous notions anytime soon can only be called a foolish hope. It's a sad realization, but people in general are closed-minded sheep led to believe that the shepherd's interests are the same as their own. Pick your shepherd. Our fates are all the same.

...But, in my opinion, the Americans would have eventually won independance. Just like the normandy invasions of WWII. It shortened the war, but it would have been won without it...
So you compare the power of the red army with the set of rebels?
Now, the rebels wouldn't even have had an army without assistance from mainly France, but other nations as well. Who remembers that bunch of mercenaries from Hannover or something?

...But, in my opinion, the Americans would have eventually won independance. Just like the normandy invasions of WWII. It shortened the war, but it would have been won without it...


So you compare the power of the red army with the set of rebels?
Now, the rebels wouldn't even have had an army without assistance from mainly France, but other nations as well. Who remembers that bunch of mercenaries from Hannover or something?
Did you quote the post you were supposed to quote, or are you just as drunk as i am?

Did you quote the post you were supposed to quote, or are you just as drunk as i am?
I don't think I'm drunk right now...
He said the US independence rebels could have won without French support, and likened that to D-Day.
I just think the odds may just have been a tiny bit more in favour of the Soviets winning WWII than the Rebels winning independence.

So you compare the power of the red army with the set of rebels?
Now, the rebels wouldn't even have had an army without assistance from mainly France, but other nations as well. Who remembers that bunch of mercenaries from Hannover or something?


No, I am comparing the litteral military contributions of French forces in the American Revolutionary war with the American, British, Belgain, Polish, Canadian, Dutch, and Free French forces. The Americans in the Revolutionary War would have won, eventually, just as the Soviet Red Army would have eventually won without any of the Normandy or even Italian landings. It just would have taken more time and alot more lives.

The reason the Americans would have eventually won was logistical. With a once loyal pleurality becoming less and less loyal because of increasingly brutal tactics, it would have been harder to guarentee the supply routes that were, and still are, vital to large armies western nations are so fond of.

Without secure supply lines, the British Armies would have gotten progressively weaker. A shortage of food, shot, and powder would have crippled the Field armies of the day.

The inability of armies of the day to sustain themselves in hostile territory would have doomed the british eventually. OF course, this assumes the British and the American Colonists could not solve their disagreements with words. Independence would have come much, much later.

Those Mercs you referr to, they were known as the Hessians. They faught for the British, most notably in the Battle of Trenton.

as maybe one of the only british citizens here i would say when you classify europe you shouldn't add the uk/ :D

I don't think I'm drunk right now...
He said the US independence rebels could have won without French support, and likened that to D-Day.
I just think the odds may just have been a tiny bit more in favour of the Soviets winning WWII than the Rebels winning independence.
Oh, right. The concept just went right over my little old head. My mistake.

as maybe one of the only british citizens here i would say when you classify europe you shouldn't add the uk/ :D

One of the only...HA. The UK probably has more people here that any nation, besided the United States, and perhaps Canada.

1. The reason the Americans would have eventually won was logistical. With a once loyal pleurality becoming less and less loyal because of increasingly brutal tactics, it would have been harder to guarentee the supply routes that were, and still are, vital to large armies western nations are so fond of.
2. Those Mercs you referr to, they were known as the Hessians. They faught for the British, most notably in the Battle of Trenton.

1. Well, I'm not particularly fond of that era, and so I know little about it, but I would've thought that a fleet like the British would've been able to keep an army supplied at least along the coast line (which may have been the most important part of the colonies at the time).
Wasn't the reason the British had only so few forces there that their Navy was slugging it out with the French?

2. Oooh, what do you know...they weren't from Hannover then.
:D

as maybe one of the only british citizens here i would say when you classify europe you shouldn't add the uk/ :D
You're far from the only Englishman to participate today... But I wonder what it is you mean when you say one shouldn't consider the UK a part of Europe? Is it the flag of Oceania you long to salute?

As for the topic of the thread:

The EU and the US may be able to heal some wounds in the short term, but in the long term, the two have different ideologies.
While both may think at large that democracy and freedom are good for everyone, the way to go about it is different for the two.
The EU has learned from so many wars, always spawning the next one, culminating in WWII, which only spawned the Cold War...
I reckon in Europe people have gotten to the bottom of wisdom and renounced force as a means of achieving something. Instead it may be best to let other peoples work their problems out over time and by themselves. The world is gonna be here for another 5 billion years. Humanity's got time. Sure sometimes it's good to intervene when things get too hot (like Genocides and so on), but and force only causes resistance.

I can't speak for the US (meaning ruling classes, often supported by public opinion), but my summary would be that the US doesn't wanna wait. They want the same goal, but they want it now! Never having been faced with really losing a war, and really suffering from it, it's easy to see how they may believe war can be a solution. It's the end that count, and the means are secondary. When people disagree with the means, then they must be against the end as well - that seems to be the logic.
It almost makes it seem like somewhere deep down the US knows it'll only be top dog for so long, and that everyone needs to be dealt with while still possible...

And then there is the curious self-perception of American society and democracy, which to me often just translates to ignorance and arrogance, but I won't go into that here.

He is just courteous. Nobody wants to see the full EU. It would mean longboats with bloodthirsty scandinavians and britons on every oar in 'em. Imagine the faces in North Korea or Syria when we'd come ashore... Not a pretty sight!

He is just courteous. Nobody wants to see the full EU. It would mean longboats with bloodthirsty scandinavians and britons on every oar in 'em. Imagine the faces in North Korea or Syria when we'd come ashore... Not a pretty sight!

:D

I reckon I'm a Cheruskan by heritage, so watch out!
I probably ain't though...

Damn the money though.

Lost 1/4 of my monetary value in France and close to 1/2 in the UK. :eek:

If they hate us then they should like that fact as it will keep the dirty Americans away. ;)

I have to ask, where are you from where you get an exchange rate like that. Looking at www.xe.com none of the countries on the main page give a conversion remotely close to that, what were you trading gold ounces?

As to the topic.For the person who said Europe is jealous of the US, I'm from Canada and I have to say I for one am not.

The EU has been around for 50 odd years in some form or another in the last 10 years it has only really started to make a lot of changes, this obviously is a new idea and will take time, I for one can't wait for a (more) United Europe.

And to everyone saying that isolationism is a good idea, I truely hope your joking. There is already enough peopel out there who are ignorant to everything that is out there (be it culutural or suffering). I'm not saying police the world either, but find a balance, not one extreme or the other.

...Never having been faced with really losing a war, and really suffering from it, it's easy to see how they may believe war can be a solution. It's the end that count, and the means are secondary. ...

Actually, I think concerning politics this really is one of THE differences between the USA and Europe. It's not that the US never lost a war (they lost a good few in their time, they just try to ignore them), it's that the USA hardly ever experienced one.

Europe as a continent has seen more wars than bear counting, and they weren't always "our guys fighting them", sometimes they were "some guys fighting some other guys in our cabbage patch, and when they're done they'll steal our food, rape our women and set the house on fire". One of my history teachers once informed me of the amazing fact that my generation and my parent's generation were the first two generations in Germany ever in recorded history to grow up without seeing war in their own country. And Germany wasn't even always involved in the war, if France and Austria decided to fight, it just happened to serve as battleground.
Europeans know first hand that war means sensless and devastating destruction, that it means death and misery for the population, that it takes years to recover from it and that its wounds heal very slowly.

America, on the other hand, experienced only a small handful of wars on its own ground, and no modern wars at all. The American society in general understands war as something you send troops to, who may or may not come back, not as something that will blow your kids up at school, burn your house down and rape your wife at gunpoint.
That's why, I think, Americans were shocked beyond belief about the attacks on the WTC, and that's also why I think the USA regards war as a political instrument.

Nor Kansas, Colorado, Utah, Nebraska... then agian, he may be a product of American Public Education, and not know that the Confederacy was only 11 states in the southeast, and not every-single-state-in-flyover-country, plus the wildlife-reserve-with-a-tiny-state-attached known as Alaska. (Poor Alaska, less privately held land than Pennsylvania...)

:)
(PS: The city of Lawrence, Kansas is perhaps the most tragic-prone in the world. It has been beset by fires, floods, tornados, Indian uprising, civil war, hordes of locusts, massive hail, and was nuked in the movie "The Day After".)

Then there's the sticky wickets of Maryland (pro-slavery, but held in the Union by troops), and West Virginia vs. Virginia (one pro, one anti...) :D

...never mind that slavery was at one time legal in Kerry states as well, and particularly in Massachusettes until 1783 and New York in 1799... so what's the diff? 60 years?

Well put. I'm moving to Italy later this year (nevermind why) and I could certainly do without the hateful glances I anticipate, simply because I'm from a country currently puppeted by a Cowboy in Armani.

Get one of those molson caps with "I am a Canadian" on you will have far far less trouble

as maybe one of the only british citizens here i would say when you classify europe you shouldn't add the uk/ :D

Lol nice one mate

But yeh good idea :p

One of my history teachers once informed me of the amazing fact that my generation and my parent's generation were the first two generations in Germany ever in recorded history to grow up without seeing war in their own country.
I agree.
On my father's side my grandfather was a kid during the war and spent the time after jumping off bridges on British coal trucks to get coals for heat.
On my mother's side my grandfather had half his leg shot to bits in Stalingrad and was lucky to have been flown out because of his wound.
My grandmother lived in Allenstein in Eastern Prussia and fled in a trek, her sister raped again and again by Soviet soldiers.
And apparently my family once owned a chocolate factory in today's Czech Republic. :D

And I do consider myself lucky not to have grown up in those times.

Some of us still live daily with such horrors.

While it may be easy to dump the nations suffering beneath a cloud of war into the third world bin, their struggle is real and (seemingly) never ending. These times are no less interesting than the ones in which our grandparents fought for their own lives. Perhaps the future generations of today's turbulent Middle East will some day regard the wars of their ancestors with utter disbelief?

Perhaps the future generations of today's turbulent Middle East will some day regard the wars of their ancestors with utter disbelief?
Given they will be allowed to leave them behind.
Foreign involvement only creates resistance.

I think you're jealous of the fact that, despite the many supposed problems you just stated with our country, we're still the only superpower (with China quickly catching up) :D

is this a kind of my daddy is bigger than your daddy thing?

If in fact countries did mind their own business and not care what the world thinks of them, and if america done that, then it'd be fine as America wouldnt run around invading places for oil.

Hopefully.

Is that the basic gist of the whole anti-anywhere-thats-not-america-cus-we're-a-super-power idea?

I think you've hit the enail on the head

Actually, I think concerning politics this really is one of THE differences between the USA and Europe. It's not that the US never lost a war (they lost a good few in their time, they just try to ignore them), it's that the USA hardly ever experienced one.

Europe as a continent has seen more wars than bear counting, and they weren't always "our guys fighting them", sometimes they were "some guys fighting some other guys in our cabbage patch, and when they're done they'll steal our food, rape our women and set the house on fire". One of my history teachers once informed me of the amazing fact that my generation and my parent's generation were the first two generations in Germany ever in recorded history to grow up without seeing war in their own country. And Germany wasn't even always involved in the war, if France and Austria decided to fight, it just happened to serve as battleground.
Europeans know first hand that war means sensless and devastating destruction, that it means death and misery for the population, that it takes years to recover from it and that its wounds heal very slowly.

America, on the other hand, experienced only a small handful of wars on its own ground, and no modern wars at all. The American society in general understands war as something you send troops to, who may or may not come back, not as something that will blow your kids up at school, burn your house down and rape your wife at gunpoint.
That's why, I think, Americans were shocked beyond belief about the attacks on the WTC, and that's also why I think the USA regards war as a political instrument.

For several hundered years can I add

And is still as high as it needs to be in the world

it does have a horrifying bloody blot called 'Northern Ireland' though ..unfortunately, so that idea of governance isnt flawless

Is that the basic gist of the whole anti-anywhere-thats-not-america-cus-we're-a-super-power idea?

Intelligent Americans (yes, they exist) know better than to adopt such a silly ideology. Anyone singing the "last-remaining-superpower" song is probably still in elementary school and unaware of the collapse of the Soviet Block.

Being big doesn't mean you have the right to do as you please. Of course, I probably feel that way because I've dealt with my share of bullies in the schoolyard. Nonetheless, Americans who exhibit such arrogance can't possibly know how much their braggartry costs. US citizens are taxed to support a military designed to defend against united forces of a similar scale. No such force exists. Superpowerdom is a moot point.

For anyone observing the international scene, it's plain to see that American and European relations are eroding at a frightening rate. As an enlisted member of the U.S. Navy, it's my humble (and hesitant) opinion that the provocative actions of my government are to blame for the growing rift. Why do you think the two sides are at mounting odds and what might be done to restore a sense of empathy?

Gee CB,
I am curious as to where you were when France, The Soviet Union and Germany were collecting the kickbacks from Sadam for stonewalling in the U.N. and undermining sanctions against him in effect allowing him to butcher hundred's of thousands of people for 23 years? Yes the fact that he cannot is all our fault maybe we shouldnt have so Europe would be happy.
Gee CB, where were you when France was supplying arms to Saddam to against their own agreements to use against us their supposed allys even right up till the time the shooting match started? I guess its all our fault they had to stab us in the back yet again huh.
Gee CB, where were you when Germany and France were providing dual purpose agents outlawed by the U.N. to Saddam which allowed him to develop the chemical agents he used on the Kurds?
Gee CB I guess the answer to your question is that we should lower ourselves to the level of the French, German, and Soviet governments and pretend we see nothing while people slaughter each other for the fun and profit of a few corrupt European governments.
Also CB, I dont believe for even a minute your are an American much less in the Navy.

Liverbreath']... Also CB, I dont believe for even a minute your are an American much less in the Navy.
Well... You're wrong. Your attack on my citizenship and armed service is one more reason I regret taking an oath to defend the likes of you. But let's not make it personal, eh?

Truth be told, I can't speak intelligently on any of the issues you've raised, as I'm only vaguely familiar with the "pseudo-treachery" of which you speak. If factual, it's clearly part of the reason our two camps aren't seeing eye to eye. That's all we're meant to be discussing here. Not the validity of my existence.

Liverbreath']-snip-
Now that was constructive... :rolleyes:

But in the spirit of free speech, I'll engage you. Could you post some links?
What do you think of the US companies who were just as happy to trade with Saddam as the European firms?
What do you think about the whole Iran-Iraq war and the engagement of the US in that?
What do you think the word "backstabbing" will achieve in this discussion?
What do you think doubting a military person's record will achieve? Support our troops, right?
And finally: Did you actually read the posts previous to yours? What do you say in response to those?

It is precisely this attitude that we europeans despise so.I honestly couldn't care less. I have nothing against Europeans, it's just that I don't give a rat's red rear about international opinion.


Why is that, Carops? Because you think you ought to be consulted on everything? Are you really so wise that the world should beat a path to your door in order to receive your sage counsel?

Now, on the other hand, if Europeans were actually doing anything in the world today, we might care what you have to say about our activities.

Well back to the original post which asked why we thought the US and EU were at odds with each other, I have several different opinions.

One of those being that Europeans don't like George Bush. They've seen what he's done, how he's lied and created a useless war, and then in 2004 we Americans re-elected the idiotic man. And to the Europeans, that probably therefore proves that Americans like Bush and agree with what he is doing(even though this is very much not the case).

Another reason is, I believe, that many Americans are ignorant and arrogant when it comes to other countries. Many Americans believe that America is the greatest country on the planet and that no other country should be paid attention to. I mean think about it, other countries know all about what's going on here in America, but most Americans have no clue what's going on right now in other countries. And I believe that makes Europeans angry that we're being ignorant and arrogant like that.

Also, as I've heard before, Europeans consider America to be "the police of the world", which is understandable, considering America doesn't deal with it's OWN issues before going on on some great crusade to try and help other countries...or even try to establish a goverment in one (i.e: Iraq). Especially since that goverment is just like America's...and America's government OBVIOUSLY isn't working very well.

But, to all you Europeans out there: Not all Americans are this way. And if you believe we are, then you are ignorant and arrogant as well. Many Americans depise George Bush (or have you not heard of all the protests about impeaching Bush?).

Look, all countries have their own issues and their own ways of dealing with them. Why can't we realize this and just quit bashing one another's countries? Afterall, that is a very fatuous thing to do.

Why is that, Carops? Because you think you ought to be consulted on everything? Are you really so wise that the world should beat a path to your door in order to receive your sage counsel?

Now, on the other hand, if Europeans were actually doing anything in the world today, we might care what you have to say about our activities.
Generally, one listens to a friend's advice. Telling them in no uncertain terms that they don't matter is enough to anger a friend.

or have you not heard of all the protests about impeaching Bush?
I've heard of it, and yet I know that they will achieve nothing. The Right wing in the US has a powerful tool these days: media defamation.
If these people protest, the namecalling starts and they are largely ignored when it comes to the decision making.
That and many Americans couldn't give a shit.

Why is that? Because you think you ought to be consulted on everything? Are you really so wise that the world should beat a path to your door in order to receive your sage counsel?

Now, on the other hand, if Europeans were actually doing anything in the world today, we might care what you have to say about our activities.

Just because Europeans aren't leading armies into the dens of Iraqi citizens is no reason to criticize them. You think fighting wars halfway around the world is the best way for a nation to busy itself? If that's the case, I strongly encourage you to grab a rifle and get to work. Or a shovel. Someone's gotta dig all those graves.

When peace is the exception and war the rule, life just plain sucks.

Generally, one listens to a friend's advice. Telling them in no uncertain terms that they don't matter is enough to anger a friend.

What makes you think the Europeans and Americans are friends? There's quite a gap between them, and it's widening.

Just because Europeans aren't leading armies into the dens of Iraqi citizens is no reason to criticize them. You think fighting wars halfway around the world is the best way for a nation to busy itself? If that's the case, I strongly encourage you to grab a rifle and get to work. Or a shovel. Someone's gotta dig all those graves.

When peace is the exception and war the rule, life just plain sucks.

You're the one who brought up Iraq...

I think that doing something about the evil in the world today is the best way for a nation to busy itself.

I've heard of it, and yet I know that they will achieve nothing. The Right wing in the US has a powerful tool these days: media defamation.
If these people protest, the namecalling starts and they are largely ignored when it comes to the decision making.
That and many Americans couldn't give a shit.[/QUOTE]


The point of me even mentioning that is that many Europeans think that Americans like Bush, but protests about impeaching him OBVIOULSY (but maybe for you, not so obviously) proves that Americans don't like Bush. Despite the fact that a few idiots re-elected him. And there lies another problem with Americans. Many of them don't vote, then they whine about how they don't like the leaders of our country. Well for them, all I can say is "tough shit!"

What makes you think the Europeans and Americans are friends? There's quite a gap between them, and it's widening.
There once was a time, before Europeans dared to disagree....
But I agree. I'd rather the EU get their act together, work together with China and make them the new counterbalance.
We'll all be much safer.

I think that doing something about the evil in the world today is the best way for a nation to busy itself.
Evil!
:D :D :D
:rolleyes:

The point of me even mentioning that is that many Europeans think that Americans like Bush, but protests about impeaching him OBVIOULSY (but maybe for you, not so obviously) proves that Americans don't like Bush. Despite the fact that a few idiots re-elected him.

*Ahem* GWB won the election with a majority of the votes. So, about 51 million people like him (though maybe for you that conclusion wasn't so obvious).

Maybe I haven't been keeping up on my news these past couple of days, but I don't think the impeach-Bush movement has reached critical mass. In other words, it's just a few malcontents. The angry words of a fringe group hardly prove that Americans don't like George Bush.

The point of me even mentioning that is that many Europeans think that Americans like Bush, but protests about impeaching him OBVIOULSY (but maybe for you, not so obviously) proves that Americans don't like Bush. Despite the fact that a few idiots re-elected him.
It was the majority, wasn't it?
I would say it proves that some Americans don't like Bush, but opposition to current policy is fairly non-existant, since everytime the democrats disagree (which they don't seem to do a lot these days) they back out again because people call them "naysayers".
We'll talk again when the Americans manage to elect a moderate. But I don't see that happening any time in the next decade.

*Ahem* GWB won the election with a majority of the votes. So, about 51 million people like him (though maybe for you that conclusion wasn't so obvious).

Maybe I haven't been keeping up on my news these past couple of days, but I don't think the impeach-Bush movement has reached critical mass. In other words, it's just a few malcontents. The angry words of a fringe group hardly prove that Americans don't like George Bush.


Ahh...and once again, my point is being missed. :headbang: Thickheaded folks these days...

And you can bet one of the only reasons why so many voted for him was because of the "war" in Iraq. Which shouldnt even be happening in the first place. Go to www.downingstreetmemo.com to see what I mean.

:headbang: That, my friend, is utter rubbish. Please tell me what we have to be jealous of? Is it your enlightened leader? Your great multitude of cultural innovations? Macdonalds? I would just love it if my nation were more like yours where children gun one another down and a moron runs the country.

1) its McDonalds
2) I don't gun other children down.
3) This is exactaly what I hate, You (for some weird ass reason) have some HUGE superiority complex.
4) Bush went to Yale, and even if you get C's in Yale you have to be really smart to get in.
5) Excuse me, Mr. British-or-whatever, Maybe we should have let the Nazi's and russians go at it, kill the winner, and take over europe.
6)Is your country perfect? I think not.
7) Maybe it is our "Great multitude of cultural innovations". I'm Irish, Scottish, British, French, Hungarian, Polish, Chzechoslovakian,and German, and I'm damn proud of it!
8)Maybe it's cause we're educated,. Do you know, one in every ten children in Britan has never heard of the Ten Commandments? One in every five children can't recall a single one?
9) A growing number (of non-muslum) europeans

I dont think it's the actual governmants but the citizens, anyway.

There once was a time, before Europeans dared to disagree....
But I agree. I'd rather the EU get their act together, work together with China and make them the new counterbalance.
We'll all be much safer.


Evil!
:D :D :D
:rolleyes:

Let me get this straight: you want China as a "counterbalance" to the United States :headbang:

Sounds like someone forgot to take his pills this morning.

Ahh...and once again, my point is being missed. :headbang: Thickheaded folks these days...

And you can bet one of the only reasons why so many voted for him was because of the "war" in Iraq. Which shouldnt even be happening in the first place. Go to www.downingstreetmemo.com to see what I mean.

If everyone's missing your point, that might be because you're not stating it clearly enough.

I went to see that Downing Street Memo. Who cares?

4) Bush went to Yale, and even if you get C's in Yale you have to be really smart to get in.
5) Excuse me, Mr. British-or-whatever, Maybe we should have let the Nazi's and russians go at it, kill the winner, and take over europe.
7) Maybe it is our "Great multitude of cultural innovations". I'm Irish, Scottish, British, French, Hungarian, Polish, Chzechoslovakian,and German, and I'm damn proud of it!
8)Maybe it's cause we're educated,. Do you know, one in every ten children in Britan has never heard of the Ten Commandments? One in every five children can't recall a single one?
9) A growing number (of non-muslum) europeans

Oh boy, there we have it again.
4) Either smart or have a rich and famous daddy and lots of friends in the Alumni organisation.
5) There is so many things wrong with that...But didn't you take over half of Europe anyways? And why do you think you could have defeated the Soviets? You were at times struggling with us. We weren't even trying anymore in the West. Sorry, man, the Russians would've sucked you up and shat you out the other end.
7) Now now. You don't know anything about those countries, those cultures, those languages. You are none of these things, having had a Romanian in your family tree somewhere doesn't make you Romanian. Oh, and there is no such thing as a Czechoslovakian. The country doesn't exist anymore, the peoples there are Czechs, Slovaks and others.
8) The ten commandments is education? I'm sorry, that's religious indoctrination and very different from being able to point out Iraq on a map. (or knowing what the CSSR was..)
9) It's called Muslim? What do you mean?

Let me get this straight: you want China as a "counterbalance" to the United States
Yes, what's your problem? The US couldn't go and attack anyone as easily because the Russians could get upset. Once the Chinese are up to scratch, the US is again limited in its' expansionism, and anti-American behaviour will drop worldwide.

:headbang:

1) its McDonalds
2) I don't gun other children down.
3) This is exactaly what I hate, You (for some weird ass reason) have some HUGE superiority complex.
4) Bush went to Yale, and even if you get C's in Yale you have to be really smart to get in.
5) Excuse me, Mr. British-or-whatever, Maybe we should have let the Nazi's and russians go at it, kill the winner, and take over europe.
6)Is your country perfect? I think not.
7) Maybe it is our "Great multitude of cultural innovations". I'm Irish, Scottish, British, French, Hungarian, Polish, Chzechoslovakian,and German, and I'm damn proud of it!
8)Maybe it's cause we're educated,. Do you know, one in every ten children in Britan has never heard of the Ten Commandments? One in every five children can't recall a single one?
9) A growing number (of non-muslum) europeans

I dont think it's the actual governmants but the citizens, anyway.

That, my friend, is utter rubbish. Please tell me what we have to be jealous of? Is it your enlightened leader? Your great multitude of cultural innovations? Macdonalds? I would just love it if my nation were more like yours where children gun one another down and a moron runs the country.


Is it just me, or do Europeans have a near-monopoly on snobbiness? Rarely do I see Americans putting off that kind of attitude toward Europeans.

Lol well okay Grammonia...i read your reply before you deleted it. I never said that the ones who voted for him didn't count. You ASSUMED that...and you know, assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.

My point: NOT ALL AMERICANS LIKE GEORGE W. BUSH! YES THE MAJORITY OF THEM VOTED FOR HIS DUMB ASS BUT CLEARLY BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN PROTESTS ABOUT AMERICANS WANTING TO IMPEACH HIM, THAT THEREFORE PROVES THAT NOT ALL AMERICANS LIKE OR SUPPORT GEORGE W. BUSH! Which is what it seems like many Europeans believe; that America as a whole likes him and myself mentioning the protests, is my point in proving that not all Americans like Mr. Bush.

Now, was this clear enough? If not, perhaps next time I explain it, I'll break it down with defitions of each word I use.

And if you don't care about what downingstreetmemo states (although I'm sure you didn't take the time to actually read the whole thing..that or you didnt understand a word it said) then its probably safe to say that you dont care about everyone who has died because of the war in Iraq.

Yes, what's your problem? The US couldn't go and attack anyone as easily because the Russians could get upset. Once the Chinese are up to scratch, the US is again limited in its' expansionism, and anti-American behaviour will drop worldwide.

Quite simply: China is ruled by one of the vilest, most evil regimes on the face of this planet. The idea that they are a desireable counterweight to the USA is risible.

You realize that you're basically calling for a second Cold War?

Is it just me, or do Europeans have a near-monopoly on snobbiness? Rarely do I see Americans putting off that kind of attitude toward Europeans.
It's just done in another way. Europe has been there and done that a long time ago. All you do is repeat history.
Americans assuring us that this is somehow different, that they have a monopoly on good, that they need to spread democracy and freedom, that is the American version of arrogant snobbiness.

Is it just me, or do Europeans have a near-monopoly on snobbiness? Rarely do I see Americans putting off that kind of attitude toward Europeans.

And Americans NEVER say stuff like "who cares about the world?"

I see them do it in every thread like this, no-one has a monopoly on arrogance.

Quite simply: China is ruled by one of the vilest, most evil regimes on the face of this planet. The idea that they are a desireable counterweight to the USA is risible.

You realize that you're basically calling for a second Cold War?
You are using the E-word again. I think it's one of the nicest, most awesome regimes on the planet! See what I mean? Your perception of what is morally right means nothing.
Apart from the fact that there are dozens of regimes much worse on their people than China, many of them allies in the war against "terror".
Yes, I do realise that. What's your point?
I agree that I don't propose what's best for the US, though.
Does that make me evil too? :(

And Americans NEVER say stuff like "who cares about the world?"

I see them do it in every thread like this, no-one has a monopoly on arrogance.


And infact, he/she whomever Grammonia is, basically said just that! When I provided them with a link which talks about and more or less PROVES how Bush lied about the war...all he/she could be bothered to say was "who cares?"

Lol well okay Grammonia...i read your reply before you deleted it. I never said that the ones who voted for him didn't count. You ASSUMED that...and you know, assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.

My point: NOT ALL AMERICANS LIKE GEORGE W. BUSH! YES THE MAJORITY OF THEM VOTED FOR HIS DUMB ASS BUT CLEARLY BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN PROTESTS ABOUT AMERICANS WANTING TO IMPEACH HIM, THAT THEREFORE PROVES THAT NOT ALL AMERICANS LIKE OR SUPPORT GEORGE W. BUSH! Which is what it seems like many Europeans believe; that America as a whole likes him and myself mentioning the protests, is my point in proving that not all Americans like Mr. Bush.

Now, was this clear enough? If not, perhaps next time I explain it, I'll break it down with defitions of each word I use.

And if you don't care about what downingstreetmemo states (although I'm sure you didn't take the time to actually read the whole thing..that or you didnt understand a word it said) then its probably safe to say that you dont care about everyone who has died because of the war in Iraq.

Are you saying Europeans are actually dumb enough to believe that every single American just loves GWB? He's generally liked, but obviously when you get a group of people together there will never be a 100% consensus. If you're right, I wonder why they have this image of a monolithic America.

And you belittled the 51% who voted for him by calling them "a few idiots." You didn't exactly say they didn't count, but it was the next best thing.

Speaking about how "assume makes an ass out of u and me," I have to admire you for using that cliche in one sentence and then a few lines down going on to assume that either I didn't read the memo or I'm too stupid to understand it. Your double standards are quite impressive, in the same way that a NYC landfill is impressive: it's imposing, it took effort and dedication, but it's still just a big pile of crap.

As a matter of fact, I don't care about the Memo because I don't care what bullshit reasons the Bush administration shovelled to the American public. Whatever was needed to get the job done is fine by me.

The US and EU need to united against China. I'm warning you, in ~20 years WWIII its going to start when china invades tiawan.

You are using the E-word again. I think it's one of the nicest, most awesome regimes on the planet! See what I mean? Your perception of what is morally right means nothing.
Apart from the fact that there are dozens of regimes much worse on their people than China, many of them allies in the war against "terror".
Yes, I do realise that. What's your point?
I agree that I don't propose what's best for the US, though.
Does that make me evil too? :(

If you like it so much, put your money where your mouth is and move there. They try to exercise some of your "human rights," like freedom of religion. Or have more than one child. Then you'll see what I mean by evil.

And yes, there are worse regimes than China. So what? I'll call them by their true name too.

Deary me, what a lot of bile and vitriol. The fact that this petty name calling has gone on for eleven pages answers the question adequately - relations between the USA and Europe are strained to breaking point.

There's problems on both sides. Europeans dislike unilateral action by a country that refuses to recognise international law. We also see Americans as staggeringly ignorant of the rest of the world and very sure of their own superiority and we're deeply concerned about the growing Christian fundamentalism in the US. Americans on the other hand seem to see the Europeans as terribly aloof, borderline communists (for having social welfare programmes in place) and practically heretics.

America seems to function best when it has a them to fight, it helps define the us, the Soviets are gone so now you have Islam as the big scary monster and it allows your government to continue to use fear and propaganda to govern your nation. I went to a very mixed university where almost 15% of the students were American, and I have a huge number of friends in the US now, so I know that the ignorance and the self-satisfaction that we see all the time in the media is not wholly representative. That said, it worries me that so few Americans travel or seem in the least bit interested in the rest of the world - it can only lead to trouble.

(Oh, and to the chap who is Scottish, English, British and half a dozen other things - really, do try to learn something about those nations before claiming that, otherwise you look a bit of a twerp. Incidentally, we may not be able to rattle off the 10 commandments by rote, but the far, far lower murder and other crime rates in Europe would suggest we're better at following them, no?)

And infact, he/she whomever Grammonia is, basically said just that! When I provided them with a link which talks about and more or less PROVES how Bush lied about the war...all he/she could be bothered to say was "who cares?"
It's a heavily accepted fact that Bush lied about the purpose for war, even among many Republicans (who see such a mistake as forgiveable). It's unfortunate that the British desire to remain on amicable terms with the American government has obligated them to fight an improperly justified war.

More WMDs, anyone?

And Americans NEVER say stuff like "who cares about the world?"

I see them do it in every thread like this, no-one has a monopoly on arrogance.

In my post, I wasn't aiming for "arrogance." It's true, many Americans automatically assume that they'r ethe best country in the world, and everyone should want to live there. And those who dont'are nuts.

But I never, never see the kind of in-your-face, personal attacks that Europeans deliver about uncultured, gun-nut, redneck, McDonald-ized morons reversed and sent back in their teeth. Americans might be oblivious to the rest of the world, but they don't actively insult them most of the time.

And infact, he/she whomever Grammonia is, basically said just that! When I provided them with a link which talks about and more or less PROVES how Bush lied about the war...all he/she could be bothered to say was "who cares?"

I didn't say "who cares about the world," I said who cares about the memo. A politician lied. Surely that doesn't happen only in the New World?

As a matter of fact, I don't care about the Memo because I don't care what bullshit reasons the Bush administration shovelled to the American public. Whatever was needed to get the job done is fine by me.

Really? Does that apply to everything the government does? You're okay with them lying to you whenever the mood takes them? So much for accountability - you do realise that what you're suggesting is a lot like the policies you seem to hate in China?

But I never, never see the kind of in-your-face, personal attacks that Europeans deliver about uncultured, gun-nut, redneck, McDonald-ized morons reversed and sent back in their teeth. Americans might be oblivious to the rest of the world, but they don't actively insult them most of the time.

French = cheese-eating surrender monkeys? Totally different thing, I take it? French fries changed to freedom fries and so on - doesn't suggest active insult?

... Incidentally, we may not be able to rattle off the 10 commandments by rote, but the far, far lower murder and other crime rates in Europe would suggest we're better at following them, no?)
Zing!

I applaud your watertight asessment of the situation as it stands... And your ability to cite precident is on the mark! Good show. :)

Really? Does that apply to everything the government does? You're okay with them lying to you whenever the mood takes them? So much for accountability - you do realise that what you're suggesting is a lot like the policies you seem to hate in China?

They already do lie whenever they feel like it. This is just one more instance.

How are lying politicians the same as China? At least over here, we can replace one gang of lying politicians with another at election time...

Are you saying Europeans are actually dumb enough to believe that every single American just loves GWB? He's generally liked, but obviously when you get a group of people together there will never be a 100% consensus. If you're right, I wonder why they have this image of a monolithic America.

And you belittled the 51% who voted for him by calling them "a few idiots." You didn't exactly say they didn't count, but it was the next best thing.

Speaking about how "assume makes an ass out of u and me," I have to admire you for using that cliche in one sentence and then a few lines down going on to assume that either I didn't read the memo or I'm too stupid to understand it. Your double standards are quite impressive, in the same way that a NYC landfill is impressive: it's imposing, it took effort and dedication, but it's still just a big pile of crap.

As a matter of fact, I don't care about the Memo because I don't care what bullshit reasons the Bush administration shovelled to the American public. Whatever was needed to get the job done is fine by me.

Well, you're right maybe I did assume. And as far as me saying that Europeans are dumb...I never said that (there you go assuming again). But I was referring to another's post who basically said that GW spoke for the American people, and you and I both know that's not true. So my point was more or less directed toward that individuals post. Perhaps I should have quoted them so it would have been more clear. And thank you very much for calling my opinions a big pile of crap. Another wrong thing with people; lack of respect. I atleast respect yours, and all others opinions. You're a bit a cyclops, as in you only see one point of view (yes, thats a metaphor). I on the other hand, see where you are coming from and how/where you form your opinions/ideas.

And I'm confused on just what "job" you are talking about being done. Is that killing thousands of innocent people? Unjustly taking over a country?...Tell me when I'm getting closer, please.

And that's so much better? At leas China isn't in a hurry to lie themselves into a war.

How are lying politicians the same as China? At least over here, we can replace one gang of lying politicians with another at election time...

You said you didn't care about the method employed, so long as the job got done. I have a feeling Deng Xiaoping would have given you a standing ovation for that sentiment and agreed wholeheartedly that its perfectly okay for the government just to make stuff up in order to get its way.

French = cheese-eating surrender monkeys? Totally different thing, I take it? French fries changed to freedom fries and so on - doesn't suggest active insult?

Have I called one of my distinguished interlocutors on this thread a cheese-eating surrender monkey?

French fries vs. freedom fries -- where's the insult in that? I personally think it's dumb, but I don't see how a European could take offence at that.

You're dredging up the odd example here and there. But in every one of these Euro/Ameri or World Politics debates, there's some snotty Euro going on about how all Americans are dumb, how superior Europeans are, etc, etc.

So the EU won't put up with US bullshit... and exactly how is this a problem?
The US won't put up with the stupid "the united europe is a second superpower" thing. Down with commies, nazis, and the frence world dotimation thing.

But I never, never see the kind of in-your-face, personal attacks that Europeans deliver about uncultured, gun-nut, redneck, McDonald-ized morons reversed and sent back in their teeth. Americans might be oblivious to the rest of the world, but they don't actively insult them most of the time.
Then you may not have looked at the right threads for a while. We could probably start a thread called "France is best country in world - did not capitulate easily in WWII." and see what happens...

... in every one of these Euro/Ameri or World Politics debates, there's some snotty Euro going on about how all Americans are dumb, how superior Europeans are, etc, etc.

... and vice-versa.

Have I called one of my distinguished interlocutors on this thread a cheese-eating surrender monkey?

Did I say that you had? You said you'd never heard from Americans the kind of insults you hear from Europeans about Americans - I cited a commonly used insult for the French in the wake of Iraq. That's all. And why would anyone be offended by French being removed and Freedom put in? Because it implies a) disgust with France for daring to disagree, b) that France and Freedom are incompatible concetps and c) is an incredibly petulant and childish act designed as a snub. That's all pretty insulting.

You said you didn't care about the method employed, so long as the job got done. I have a feeling Deng Xiaoping would have given you a standing ovation for that sentiment and agreed wholeheartedly that its perfectly okay for the government just to make stuff up in order to get its way.

Machiavelli, actually. :p

I think I'm being realistic here. Governments won't stop telling lies; it's just what they do.

Down with commies, nazis, and the frence world dotimation thing.
Hihihihi.
Maybe we won't have to make an extra thread!

Then you may not have looked at the right threads for a while. We could probably start a thread called "France is best country in world - did not capitulate easily in WWII." and see what happens...

The second part of that statement is easily disproved... the first not so much. But if you'd like to show me, by all means create said thread. I'm not so close-minded that I wouldn't admit being wrong if you showed me uip.

We also see Americans as staggeringly ignorant of the rest of the world and very sure of their own superiority and we're deeply concerned about the growing Christian fundamentalism in the US.
What the heck? What are you? An atheust?

Machiavelli, actually. :p

I think I'm being realistic here. Governments won't stop telling lies; it's just what they do.

In the context, however, Deng was more apt - being actually Chinese. And, for the record, the idea was hardly invented in The Prince.

What the heck? What are you? An atheust?


Ah! Splendid. Either I'm a Christian fundamentalist or an athiest. There is no middle ground. You're for us, or you're against us.

In your warped mind I'm probably worse than atheists - I'm Jewish and I worry about any fundamentalist group and anyone who would seek to restrict my freedoms.

Well, you're right maybe I did assume. And as far as me saying that Europeans are dumb...I never said that (there you go assuming again). But I was referring to another's post who basically said that GW spoke for the American people, and you and I both know that's not true. So my point was more or less directed toward that individuals post. Perhaps I should have quoted them so it would have been more clear. And thank you very much for calling my opinions a big pile of crap. Another wrong thing with people; lack of respect. I atleast respect yours, and all others opinions. You're a bit a cyclops, as in you only see one point of view (yes, thats a metaphor). I on the other hand, see where you are coming from and how/where you form your opinions/ideas.

And I'm confused on just what "job" you are talking about being done. Is that killing thousands of innocent people? Unjustly taking over a country?...Tell me when I'm getting closer, please.

I didn't say your opinions were a big pile of crap (those I will listen to respectfully), I was chastising you for lecturing me on making assumptions, then assuming in your own turn that I either lied about reading the memo or was just plain stupid.

You're getting close: the "job" I was talking about was the invasion of Iraq. :)

In the context, however, Deng was more apt - being actually Chinese. And, for the record, the idea was hardly invented in The Prince.

Of course. But the concept you were opposing was "The ends justify the means," which was most famously declared by -- you guessed it, Niccolo Machiavelli.

What the heck? What are you? An atheust?
Christian fundamentalism isn't healthy, despite what you might have been taught in Sunday school. A comment like that could lead to something of a Spanish Inquisition... In fact, you can expect it.

Then again, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. :p

The french owe our $4 billion for rebuilding there stupid country and they also owe us for saving there oh-my-gose-the-germans-are-coming-quick-we-better-surrender-becuase-we-forgot-how-to-fight-after-neopolian a**es.

We also see Americans as staggeringly ignorant of the rest of the world and very sure of their own superiority and we're deeply concerned about the growing Christian fundamentalism in the US.

Incidentally, what's your problem with Christian fundamentalism?

I'm far more worried about Muslim fundamentalists.

I didn't say your opinions were a big pile of crap (those I will listen to respectfully), I was chastising you for lecturing me on making assumptions, then assuming in your own turn that I either lied about reading the memo or was just plain stupid.

You're getting close: the "job" I was talking about was the invasion of Iraq. :)

Ahh...now I understand. But enlighten me, why should we have invaded Iraq?(I know that doesn't have too much to do with the topic of this thread, but I'm still curious to find out).

... the "job" I was talking about was the invasion of Iraq. :)

Oh, happy day! The misunderstanding is at an end. There's nothing unsavory about substituting the phrase "invasion of Iraq" for "murder of tens of thousands of people" -- Big Brother agrees.

Christian fundamentalism isn't healthy, despite what you might have been taught in Sunday school. A comment like that could lead to something of a Spanish Inquisition... In fact, you can expect it.

Then again, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. :p

You know what would really amaze people? A Portuguese Inquisition. Or maybe Sicilian Inquisition (you know, never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line)

The french owe our $4 billion for rebuilding there stupid country and they also owe us for saving there oh-my-gose-the-germans-are-coming-quick-we-better-surrender-becuase-we-forgot-how-to-fight-after-neopolian a**es.

Or maybe they knew how to fight they were just outclassed everywhere. As was everyone else. Germany was the undisputed BEST at war at that point.

If us brits had failed the US would never even have entered the war against Germany and, whaddayaknow, the French gave us a pretty major hand with that.

Try learning history before you spew your bullshit about WW2.

Incidentally, what's your problem with Christian fundamentalism?

I'm far more worried about Muslim fundamentalists.

You know what? I reckon the Ghas isn't actually real. I think he might be posing as an American to prove our point.

It doesn't make a bit of a difference what religion a fundamentalist adheres to. Christianity and Islam are built on the same tenents, and there have been many past instances of Christian terrorist groups.

By the way, I am preparing that thread, but I'll go about it a little bit more seriously.

Deary me, what a lot of bile and vitriol. The fact that this petty name calling has gone on for eleven pages answers the question adequately - relations between the USA and Europe are strained to breaking point.

There's problems on both sides. Europeans dislike unilateral action by a country that refuses to recognise international law. We also see Americans as staggeringly ignorant of the rest of the world and very sure of their own superiority and we're deeply concerned about the growing Christian fundamentalism in the US. Americans on the other hand seem to see the Europeans as terribly aloof, borderline communists (for having social welfare programmes in place) and practically heretics.

America seems to function best when it has a them to fight, it helps define the us, the Soviets are gone so now you have Islam as the big scary monster and it allows your government to continue to use fear and propaganda to govern your nation. I went to a very mixed university where almost 15% of the students were American, and I have a huge number of friends in the US now, so I know that the ignorance and the self-satisfaction that we see all the time in the media is not wholly representative. That said, it worries me that so few Americans travel or seem in the least bit interested in the rest of the world - it can only lead to trouble.

(Oh, and to the chap who is Scottish, English, British and half a dozen other things - really, do try to learn something about those nations before claiming that, otherwise you look a bit of a twerp. Incidentally, we may not be able to rattle off the 10 commandments by rote, but the far, far lower murder and other crime rates in Europe would suggest we're better at following them, no?)
How do you know I don't know about theese cultures, eh, bloke?
That really is bloody 'ell isn't is?

Rmember I'm a conservative republican American.
And my grandmother is a geneaologist( spelling most likely incorrect.)
You all think I'm ignorant? I know more then you think.
If europe is so grand then why have you sprouted Hitler and Stalin? And you helped start america with the revolutionary war, which led to the creation of the first real country( I think) in the New World. Which accorrding to you europeans, is a very bad insult.
Exceptional! you've done your homework. I'm really sick of the rattle because it ain't gonna help, blokes! The problem is that it's not the governments it's the citzens of the government. Besides, it's not really that much of a problem, unless you want Hitler to rise from the grave?
That reminds me of all the european anti-semitism. :headbang:

<<If europe is so grand then why have you sprouted Hitler and Stalin?>>

And you had Custer, Reagan and spawned the Ku Klux Klan. You can be sooo proud of yourselves there...

<<tyrants will think twice before crossing swords with Uncle Sam.>>

Yeah, they'll just offer to take some prisoners off the US ands and they'll be firm allies. Far better.

Ahh...now I understand. But enlighten me, why should we have invaded Iraq?(I know that doesn't have too much to do with the topic of this thread, but I'm still curious to find out).

Getting rid of that regime has accomplished the important realpolitik goal of showing that the USA is not to be messed with. Even if this whole "nation-building" thing fails, tyrants will think twice before crossing swords with Uncle Sam.

Second, the idealistic goal: freeing the people of Iraq. There isn't a 100% chance that Iraq will get a nice, democratic republic, but their odds are a lot better than they were in 2002.

Last and least, for revenge. Saddam has been thumbing his nose at the US for 13 years. Well, he finally got his. And so did his psychotic sons.

PS. Thank goodness we got this misunderstanding sorted out. Huzzah for Beavermitzfah!

How do you know I don't know about theese cultures, eh, bloke?
That really is bloody 'ell isn't is?

Because if you did you'd know that if you were English or Scottish you were also British, it's not a third bit hanging around next to the other two.

And, is that meant to be an imitation of British slang? If so it's so shockingly bad that it adds to my belief you know bugger all about the countries in question.

... I'm a conservative republican American.
And my grandmother is a geneaologist( spelling most likely incorrect.)
You all think I'm ignorant? I know more then you think ... The problem is that it's not the governments it's the citzens of the government. Besides, it's not really that much of a problem, unless you want Hitler to rise from the grave?
That reminds me of all the european anti-semitism. :headbang:

I think I speak for everyone present when I ask...
What?

Ah! Splendid. Either I'm a Christian fundamentalist or an athiest. There is no middle ground. You're for us, or you're against us.
In your warped mind I'm probably worse than atheists - I'm Jewish and I worry about any fundamentalist group and anyone who would seek to restrict my freedoms.

No there is middle ground, and I'm not antisemtic. But the way you frased that...Christian funimentilist arn't going to come after you. "Restrict my freedoms." Define that. You mean freedom to practice your religian? No ones going to stop you. If your in the US, your protected under the bill of rights. If you mean freedom to have an abortion, then yes, your freedom will be restricted.

Oh, happy day! The misunderstanding is at an end. There's nothing unsavory about substituting the phrase "invasion of Iraq" for "murder of tens of thousands of people" -- Big Brother agrees.

Methinks the sailor doth protest too much. Since the US didn't go into Iraq with the objective of killing civilians, the verb "murder" is a little overblown.

No there is middle ground, and I'm not antisemtic. But the way you frased that...Christian funimentilist arn't going to come after you.

Actually they will. They are willing to bomb abortion clinics and start wars in the middle East. I fear them with good reason.

Methinks the sailor doth protest too much. Since the US didn't go into Iraq with the objective of killing civilians, the verb "murder" is a little overblown.

Intent matters little with an outcome like that. You can be as idealistic as you like and still fuck up royally.

Quote:
And the US has a superiority complex as demonstrated by your post.

Why shouldn't we? Look, all you Europeons think you're better than us. So we can say we are better. And since we are the most tolerant nation on Earth, are made up of people from every single country on Earth, not just Europe, and we've saved you Europeons three times in the last century. (Both ww1 and ww2 were won with OUR blood... and we were also the only reason the Soviets didn't crush Europe.. not that you'd dislike that, since Europeon socialism is so strong.)
Europe is just jealous that America has the spotlight right now... Europes been at the center of things since 1492... wait, no. Since Rome. Well wait. Since Greece I suppose... You're just a little sad you aren't the stars anymore. For which, I really can't blame you... truly, if I had been the center of the world, I wouldn't be happy when someone else took my spot (and yes I'm sincere about that)... but you have to (as I would... grudgingly...) just accept it. You guys are still strong and stuff. But just be glad you guys aren't fighting and dieing in Afghanistan or Iraq. (A few of you are though... and you deserve as much honor as our brave American soldiers too.... well not as much, I mean, I'm an American... I'm not gonna lie and say you guys mean as much to me as another American does...) Anyway, I think Europeons have just gotta lay back a little... just calm down...
Anyway, I think the US and Europe have really gotta put aside all the arguements and have just gotta try and work it all out. We've been friends for a long time... and we shouldn't let it go to waste. A lot of us died for you... and a lot of you died for us. And that's reason enough to try and hash things out...

One last thing... someone said that a "moron" runs our country. Well, pshaw, thats bull. Maybe you don't like Bush... but I beleive he is truly sincere in all he does. He does not strike me (or anyone who has met him personally, from what I have read and heard) as a bad person who is intentionally skewing the facts to America and the world. Fighting the war for oil... oil has only gotten more expensive... Fighting to finish the work his father started... Now maybe he took some joy in crushing Saddam (who wouldn't, he was a sick dictator)... but he would NOT go to war just to settle scores... I beleive that he truly thought there were WMD's in Iraq. and hell, I can't blame him. I figured Saddam had some nerve gas and anthrax and all that... and well, better safe then sorry... we should have learned that lesson after WW2. eh?

Anyway, if Bush is a moron for going into war in Iraq, I guess Blair is too for following him. But I don't beleive that. They were just men who are fighting for what they beleive in... and I think Chirac (the french dude.. sorry if I spelled it wrong) is truly a moron... I've heard a lot about corruption... and all his insulting America... and refusing EU stuff... you guys talk about morons... look in your own backyard...

I hope someone takes something out of the long epic I wrote. I seriously enjoy expressing my beleifs, even if you guys don't really agree... I think what the world needs is for everyone to just sit down and talk. and compromise. and be friends.

Or maybe they knew how to fight they were just outclassed everywhere. As was everyone else. Germany was the undisputed BEST at war at that point.

If us brits had failed the US would never even have entered the war against Germany and, whaddayaknow, the French gave us a pretty major hand with that.

Try learning history before you spew your bullshit about WW2.

Bull****!!! I know a lot about WWII!!! I also now that the french gave up after 5 weeks!!! 5 WEEKS!!! What its up with that? They could have held out twice as long, there just lazy bums so they didn't.

And no matter how sucky there military was, they still owe us.

... the US didn't go into Iraq with the objective of killing civilians, the verb "murder" is a little overblown.
That considered, you're of course correct. Still, it's pretty horrible.

How do you know I don't know about theese cultures, eh, bloke?
That really is bloody 'ell isn't is?


You all think I'm ignorant? I know more then you think.
If europe is so grand then why have you sprouted Hitler and Stalin? And you helped start america with the revolutionary war, which led to the creation of the first real country( I think) in the New World. Which accorrding to you europeans, is a very bad insult.
Exceptional! you've done your homework. I'm really sick of the rattle because it ain't gonna help, blokes! The problem is that it's not the governments it's the citzens of the government. Besides, it's not really that much of a problem, unless you want Hitler to rise from the grave?
That reminds me of all the european anti-semitism. :headbang:

I fully agree with this post.

No there is middle ground, and I'm not antisemtic. But the way you frased that...Christian funimentilist arn't going to come after you. "Restrict my freedoms." Define that. You mean freedom to practice your religian? No ones going to stop you. If your in the US, your protected under the bill of rights. If you mean freedom to have an abortion, then yes, your freedom will be restricted.

Actually, very specifically I meant the freedom to live my life without some turkey imposing his religious beliefs on me either in person or through the law.

Actually they will. They are willing to bomb abortion clinics and start wars in the middle East. I fear them with good reason.

Don't you live in Germany? Unless you're planning on getting an abortion in Arkansas, trust me -- you have nothing to worry about.

That considered, you're of course correct. Still, it's pretty horrible.

The goal was to take out Hussian, a dictator who gases the Kruds and killed him own citivions. THE CIA TOLD BUSH HUSSIAN HAD WMD!!!

I fully agree with this post.

Then maybe you could explain it to the rest of us...

But on the basis of post 213, I doubt it very much.

<<If europe is so grand then why have you sprouted Hitler and Stalin?>>

And you had Custer, Reagan and spawned the Ku Klux Klan. You can be sooo proud of yourselves there...

<<tyrants will think twice before crossing swords with Uncle Sam.>>

Yeah, they'll just offer to take some prisoners off the US ands and they'll be firm allies. Far better.

Gramnonia's Warning Sign #1203 that Rhetoric is Being Abused: comparing Reagan to Stalin, Hitler or the KKK.

Ease off a bit, brother.

Actually, very specifically I meant the freedom to live my life without some turkey imposing his religious beliefs on me either in person or through the law.

Your personal freedoms will be protected, with the exceptions of your "freedom" to kill inicent people (abortion) or if you get jailed for commiting a crime (if you commite a crime in this counrty your probably walk becuase we have stupid jurers.

And since we are the most tolerant nation on Earth,

Really? What a widely held belief that is, and yet I see no proof of it whatever.

Soviets ... not that you'd dislike that, since Europeon socialism is so strong.

I have never understood why socialist is a dirty word in the US, having social and welfare provisions and being Josef Stalin are very different things.

Your personal freedoms will be protected, with the exceptions of your "freedom" to kill inicent people (abortion) or if you get jailed for commiting a crime (if you commite a crime in this counrty your probably walk becuase we have stupid jurers.

Oh well I fell better then. No danger of prayers in school? No worry about evolution being outlawed? Never likely to be condemned for being gay? Not condemned for living in sin? Never likely to be told that the Bible is entirely true from start to finish and that anyone who doesn't accept Chrtist as his personal saviour is doomed for all eternity? Please.

But we digress from the topic...

If your from Europe, you owe Reagon a lot, you ungratful bastard! He ENDED the cold war, and the sovs went out of bussiness. You Europeans owe us for WWI, WWII, and the Cold War!!! The lest you could do is get your politions to get out of our way so we can kill TERRORIST that ATTACKED THIS COUNTRY!!!!!

Your personal freedoms will be protected, with the exceptions of your "freedom" to kill inicent people (abortion) or if you get jailed for commiting a crime (if you commite a crime in this counrty your probably walk becuase we have stupid jurers.

Bad English teachers, too :D

Quote:


Why shouldn't we? Look, all you Europeons think you're better than us. So we can say we are better. And since we are the most tolerant nation on Earth, are made up of people from every single country on Earth, not just Europe, and we've saved you Europeons three times in the last century. (Both ww1 and ww2 were won with OUR blood... and we were also the only reason the Soviets didn't crush Europe.. not that you'd dislike that, since Europeon socialism is so strong.)
Europe is just jealous that America has the spotlight right now... Europes been at the center of things since 1492... wait, no. Since Rome. Well wait. Since Greece I suppose... You're just a little sad you aren't the stars anymore. For which, I really can't blame you... truly, if I had been the center of the world, I wouldn't be happy when someone else took my spot (and yes I'm sincere about that)... but you have to (as I would... grudgingly...) just accept it. You guys are still strong and stuff. But just be glad you guys aren't fighting and dieing in Afghanistan or Iraq. (A few of you are though... and you deserve as much honor as our brave American soldiers too.... well not as much, I mean, I'm an American... I'm not gonna lie and say you guys mean as much to me as another American does...) Anyway, I think Europeons have just gotta lay back a little... just calm down...
Anyway, I think the US and Europe have really gotta put aside all the arguements and have just gotta try and work it all out. We've been friends for a long time... and we shouldn't let it go to waste. A lot of us died for you... and a lot of you died for us. And that's reason enough to try and hash things out...

One last thing... someone said that a "moron" runs our country. Well, pshaw, thats bull. Maybe you don't like Bush... but I beleive he is truly sincere in all he does. He does not strike me (or anyone who has met him personally, from what I have read and heard) as a bad person who is intentionally skewing the facts to America and the world. Fighting the war for oil... oil has only gotten more expensive... Fighting to finish the work his father started... Now maybe he took some joy in crushing Saddam (who wouldn't, he was a sick dictator)... but he would NOT go to war just to settle scores... I beleive that he truly thought there were WMD's in Iraq. and hell, I can't blame him. I figured Saddam had some nerve gas and anthrax and all that... and well, better safe then sorry... we should have learned that lesson after WW2. eh?

Anyway, if Bush is a moron for going into war in Iraq, I guess Blair is too for following him. But I don't beleive that. They were just men who are fighting for what they beleive in... and I think Chirac (the french dude.. sorry if I spelled it wrong) is truly a moron... I've heard a lot about corruption... and all his insulting America... and refusing EU stuff... you guys talk about morons... look in your own backyard...

I hope someone takes something out of the long epic I wrote. I seriously enjoy expressing my beleifs, even if you guys don't really agree... I think what the world needs is for everyone to just sit down and talk. and compromise. and be friends.

I fully agree with your post, for the most part anyway. I still think that Bush is and hasn't been that great of a president. Sure, the guy in and of himself, I'm sure is a great guy, but as for a president, he's just not that great. I agree with what you wrote about Europe and America, but I can't say I totally agree with what you wrote about the war,...either way I still liked your post.

I guess I have to do this.

Why shouldn't we? Look, all you Europeons think you're better than us. So we can say we are better. And since we are the most tolerant nation on EarthRight, that's why Muslims are in my experience more wary of the US than anywhere else..., are made up of people from every single country on Earth, not just Europe, and we've saved you Europeons three times in the last century. (Both ww1 You wandered along near the end and did the equivalent of Sweet Fuck-All compared to everyone else and ww2 were won with OUR blood...WW2 i'll give you that you helped a lot. You were not however the only reason the war was won and we were also the only reason the Soviets didn't crush EuropeAnd the rest of Europesat around waiting for the Red Invader?.. not that you'd dislike that, since Europeon socialism is so strong.)
Europe is just jealous that America has the spotlight right now... Europes been at the center of things since 1492... wait, no. Since Rome. Well wait. Since Greece I suppose... You're just a little sad you aren't the stars anymore. Actually, I think we are just tired. We have seen the same old fuck-ups so ofen when we were at the 'centre' and we see you committing them again For which, I really can't blame you... truly, if I had been the center of the world, I wouldn't be happy when someone else took my spot (and yes I'm sincere about that)... but you have to (as I would... grudgingly...) just accept it. You guys are still strong and stuff. But just be glad you guys aren't fighting and dieing in Afghanistan or Iraq. (A few of you are though... and you deserve as much honor as our brave American soldiers too.... well not as much, I mean, I'm an American... I'm not gonna lie and say you guys mean as much to me as another American does...) Anyway, I think Europeons have just gotta lay back a little... just calm down...
Anyway, I think the US and Europe have really gotta put aside all the arguements and have just gotta try and work it all out. We've been friends for a long time... and we shouldn't let it go to waste. A lot of us died for you... and a lot of you died for us. And that's reason enough to try and hash things out...True enough

One last thing... someone said that a "moron" runs our country. Well, pshaw, thats bull. Maybe you don't like Bush... but I beleive he is truly sincere in all he does. He does not strike me (or anyone who has met him personally, from what I have read and heard) as a bad person who is intentionally skewing the facts to America and the world.Whether he strikes you as it or not, it's what he's done. Fighting the war for oil... oil has only gotten more expensive... Well yes, think how much the risks in Iraq have risen. Fighting to finish the work his father started... Now maybe he took some joy in crushing Saddam (who wouldn't, he was a sick dictator)... but he would NOT go to war just to settle scores... I beleive that he truly thought there were WMD's in Iraq. and hell, I can't blame him. I figured Saddam had some nerve gas and anthrax and all that... and well, better safe then sorry True that, we should nuke Israel before they cut loose with their WMD's, What, we can't? And we can't do them for human rights violations either? Why? Oh, the US still likes them. Right.... we should have learned that lesson after WW2. eh?

Anyway, if Bush is a moron for going into war in Iraq, I guess Blair is too for following him. But I don't beleive that. They were just men who are fighting for what they beleive in... and I think Chirac (the french dude.. sorry if I spelled it wrong) is truly a moron... I've heard a lot about corruption... and all his insulting America... and refusing EU stuff... you guys talk about morons... look in your own backyard... Chirac had the brains to stay out of Iraq at least. But yes he is a corrupt prat.

I hope someone takes something out of the long epic I wrote. I seriously enjoy expressing my beleifs, even if you guys don't really agree... I think what the world needs is for everyone to just sit down and talk. and compromise. and be friends.

<<Bull****!!! I know a lot about WWII!!! I also now that the french gave up after 5 weeks!!! 5 WEEKS!!! What its up with that? They could have held out twice as long, there just lazy bums so they didn't.
>>

Their plan fucked up and they got slaughtered. Not much you can do about that. It's comparable to the US assault on Iraq.

Oh well I fell better then. No danger of prayers in school? No worry about evolution being outlawed? Never likely to be condemned for being gay? Not condemned for living in sin? Never likely to be told that the Bible is entirely true from start to finish and that anyone who doesn't accept Chrtist as his personal saviour is doomed for all eternity? Please.

But we digress from the topic...

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

-The Bill of rights. The constution was written by Christians.

If your from Europe, you owe Reagon a lot, you ungratful bastard! He ENDED the cold war, and the sovs went out of bussiness. You Europeans owe us for WWI, WWII, and the Cold War!!! The lest you could do is get your politions to get out of our way so we can kill TERRORIST that ATTACKED THIS COUNTRY!!!!!

The colossal arrogance echoed in Ham-o's post that the Americans win all the wars while everyone else cowered and waited for you to save us. Watch fewer movies, read more history. WWI and WWII were collaborative efforts, no one country won them. And if you think America won the Cold War single-handed you're dangerously far from the truth. It wasn't America people were climbing the Berlin Wall to get to, chum.

I have never understood why socialist is a dirty word in the US, having social and welfare provisions and being Josef Stalin are very different things.

In many circles, socialism shares in the taint of communism. People say it weakens a nation when people learn to depend on the government instead of their own resources. Once the citizens are dependent (and suitably anaesthesised), the government can start to do whatever it wants, since people aren't as skeptical of it anymore.

Also, socialism is a bill of goods, not just a few economic provisions. A lot of what people don't like in today's world, such as Political Correctness, unlimited immigration, affirmative action, gun controls, the government intruding into every aspect of people's lives and trying to engineer things and the ever-increasing taxes to pay for all this are advocated by the left-leaning parties. It's not that Americans hate socialism per se (though some do), just that they hate all the stuff that comes with it.

Don't you live in Germany?

Nope. Brit. Given however that the fundies can extend their touch to the Middle East a compliant UK government is not much of a protection IMO...

I guess I have to do this.



<<Bull****!!! I know a lot about WWII!!! I also now that the french gave up after 5 weeks!!! 5 WEEKS!!! What its up with that? They could have held out twice as long, there just lazy bums so they didn't.
>>

Their plan fucked up and they got slaughtered. Not much you can do about that. It's comparable to the US assault on Iraq.

What the F***?!?!?! Youe comparing wopping a totalitarian state's ass to surendering to nazis?

It's not that Americans hate socialism per se (though some do), just that they hate all the stuff that comes with it.

Many of those things needn't come with it. Again we're dealing with shades of grey.

Oh well I fell better then. No danger of prayers in school? No worry about evolution being outlawed? Never likely to be condemned for being gay? Not condemned for living in sin? Never likely to be told that the Bible is entirely true from start to finish and that anyone who doesn't accept Chrtist as his personal saviour is doomed for all eternity? Please.

But we digress from the topic...

If you expect the government to protect you from being told that Jesus is the path to salvation, it's no wonder there's such a huge gap between Europe and the US.

Freedom of speech means that people can proselytize and talk about how great their religion is.

If your from Europe, you owe Reagon a lot, you ungratful bastard! He ENDED the cold war, and the sovs went out of bussiness. You Europeans owe us for WWI, WWII, and the Cold War!!! The lest you could do is get your politions to get out of our way so we can kill TERRORIST that ATTACKED THIS COUNTRY!!!!!
Kill terrorists? Sure. Great. I'm behind that. Who isn't? But, apart from the Taliban and Al Qaeda, what terrorists have the US been trying to kill? No legitimate connections have yet been found between Hussein and the 9/11 attack.

Many of those things needn't come with it. Again we're dealing with shades of grey.

It's a two-party system. What can you do? One way or the other, you're getting a "package deal."

What the F***?!?!?! Youe comparing wopping a totalitarian state's ass to surendering to nazis?

Damn right I am. On a military level the Battle of France is comparable to the US assault on Iraq. Leave politics out, look at the military aspects.

It's also comparable to the 6-day war.

If you expect the government to protect you from being told that Jesus is the path to salvation, it's no wonder there's such a huge gap between Europe and the US.

Freedom of speech means that people can proselytize and talk about how great their religion is.

I apologise, I should have made it clear that I'd want to be protected from it in schools etc. They're more than welcome to talk, but I don't want twenty fliers a day jammed through my letterbox, for example - I have a right not to be hounded.

But this is still wildly off topic and probably covered somewhere else.

It's a two-party system. What can you do? One way or the other, you're getting a "package deal."

Sorry? European socialism exists in a two party system? Erm, no.

Damn right I am. On a military level the Battle of France is comparable to the US assault on Iraq. Leave politics out, look at the military aspects.

It's also comparable to the 6-day war.

Now that you claify what your talking about, I can sorta see your point but...The french gave up to easy.

Sorry? European socialism exists in a two party system? Erm, no.

^Are you talking about there current government? If oyu are, your right on.

Not much else they can do. They were routed so fast the leaders couldn't turn it. Hell the BEF barely got out.

I apologise, I should have made it clear that I'd want to be protected from it in schools etc. They're more than welcome to talk, but I don't want twenty fliers a day jammed through my letterbox, for example - I have a right not to be hounded.

But this is still wildly off topic and probably covered somewhere else.

You won't be, and if that happened, being a christian, I would be disipointered. But it is not get christian that will jam your mailbox.

^Are you talking about there current government? If oyu are, your right on.

Current government of where? There is no government of Europe in any meaningful sense. And there are few, if any, countries in Europe operating a two party system.

Europe and America should all just be made to listen to that song "Why Can't We Be Friends".

Damn right I am. On a military level the Battle of France is comparable to the US assault on Iraq. Leave politics out, look at the military aspects.

It's also comparable to the 6-day war.

There is a difference between 1940 and 2003.

France could have won, if their army doctrine, specifically that concerning armor, had been better. Or if they'd attacked while Germany was busy with Poland.

Iraq didn't have a prayer in 2002/03.

Kill terrorists? Sure. Great. I'm behind that. Who isn't? But, apart from the Taliban and Al Qaeda, what terrorists have the US been trying to kill? No legitimate connections have yet been found between Hussein and the 9/11 attack.

Saddam had WMD, how else did he gas the kurds? But we gave him 6 month to hide them and ship them out of the country. And the weapons could have gone to terrorists.

Sorry? European socialism exists in a two party system? Erm, no.

Lol, another misunderstanding. No, it's America that has the two-party system. We were talking about why many Americans hate socialism, and I said it's because of all the baggage that comes with it. They don't have a choice. It's either Democrat or Republican. That's it.

Saddam had WMD, how else did he gas the kurds? But we gave him 6 month to hide them and ship them out of the country. And the weapons could have gone to terrorists.

That's all speculative. I'll not defend Hussein -- Guy's a prick. I'm just saying Bush should have been a bit more honest about our motives for war.

There is a difference between 1940 and 2003.

France could have won, if their army doctrine, specifically that concerning armor, had been better. Or if they'd attacked while Germany was busy with Poland.

Iraq didn't have a prayer in 2002/03.

True, but then had Iraq's army been decently motivated to fight they could have given the US forces a hell of a scrap. As it was they broke up quickly.

Saddam had WMD, how else did he gas the kurds? But we gave him 6 month to hide them and ship them out of the country. And the weapons could have gone to terrorists.

Because someone who knows his country is about to be invaded would, of course, give away all the weapons he had. Hardly.

I apologise, I should have made it clear that I'd want to be protected from it in schools etc. They're more than welcome to talk, but I don't want twenty fliers a day jammed through my letterbox, for example - I have a right not to be hounded.

But this is still wildly off topic and probably covered somewhere else.

In most places, you can't do anything about junk mail. You dont' have the "right" not to get lots of ads. Not yet anyhow. Just wait until some activist judge has his day. But I think 20 a day is extreme. Who on earth gets that much junk mail?

I hope you're not sayiing Americans are told in school that Jesus saves, that they're living in mortal sin, etc etc. That's a degree of indoctrination more characteristic of a totalitarian system. If you honestly think that, you're grossly misinformed about the USA.

Edit: and since we're dealing with US-Euro differences, it couldn't be more relevant to our topic.

Lol, another misunderstanding. No, it's America that has the two-party system. We were talking about why many Americans hate socialism, and I said it's because of all the baggage that comes with it. They don't have a choice. It's either Democrat or Republican. That's it.

Yes, I know you have a two-party system - my point was that socialism needn't mean all the baggage you cited, it doesn't throughout Europe. Some places are more socialist than others, but to hear some people talk the UK is practically a communist regime because we have the NHS etc.

In most places, you can't do anything about junk mail. You dont' have the "right" not to get lots of ads. Not yet anyhow. Just wait until some activist judge has his day. But I think 20 a day is extreme. Who on earth gets that much junk mail?

I hope you're not sayiing Americans are told in school that Jesus saves, that they're living in mortal sin, etc etc. That's a degree of indoctrination more characteristic of a totalitarian system. If you honestly think that, you're grossly misinformed about the USA.

No, I was citing it as examples of what many Christian Fundamentalists would like to see happening in schools and throught the US government - a focussing on the Christian God and on the Bible. I'm not saying it happens now, I'm saying it is why I distrust fundamentalists (and I did say fundamentalists of any flavour).

(Actually, I wasn't speaking hypothetically about the fliers, I and a number of people I know were targetted by a group of born again christians while at university, this wasn't junk mail, this was them coming round and posting fliers through our doors and ours alone. But this is still not the right place for this conversation!! :))

True, but then had Iraq's army been decently motivated to fight they could have given the US forces a hell of a scrap. As it was they broke up quickly.
Not true at all. Iraq's military was at its peak in the early 90's, and the coalition forces totally massacred them.
The Iraqis' only chance at victory was doing what they did. Giving up ground and disappearing into the civilian population.