NationStates Jolt Archive

It really depends on who is doing the burning. An American citizen shouldn't be allowed to write on much less burn the American flag; in fact it is law. (One which Bush (http://www.dubyaspeak.com/incidents.shtml) doesn't know) But it is perfectly acceptable for anyone else (such as Muslims) to burn the American flag or anyone else's flag. An American burning the American flag, even in the most extreme situations, is unacceptable. The flag represents the country and if one burns their own flag, they are desecrating themselves, their country and what they are trying to accomplish.
so your saying Muslims can't be Americans?
but anyway, if that law were taken to the Supreme Court im almost positive it would be overruled. it would be consistent with every other decision they've made based on free speech.

The flag represents the country and if one burns their own flag, they are desecrating themselves, their country and what they are trying to accomplish.

Although technically, the government can't make a law against desecrating the flag, because to say you are descrating the flag would be to say its sacred. The government cannot say the flag is sacred, due to a strict seperation of church and state (which could be stricter, if you ask me).

so your saying Muslims can't be Americans?
but anyway, if that law were taken to the Supreme Court im almost positive it would be overruled. it would be consistent with every other decision they've made based on free speech.

Will you still hold that view knowing there are two possible retirements coming up?

I hate to jump into a conversation without reading the previous 17 pages of input, but I really feel a need to stick my opinion out there.

I think that flag burning should remain a legal right. I've never personally burned a flag, and I think the idea of burning a flag is downright silly. However, I think it would be ridiculous to issue a constitutional law banning flag burning. The Constitution protects freedom of speech, even if such speech is not popular.

I cannot think of a reason why burning the flag should be illegal. People have a right to be unhappy, even when others cannot understand why these people are unhappy. Americans have the Constitutional right to speak against anything they wish, even the establishment that grants them the right to do so.

On a practical level, how would such a law against flag burning be upheld? Would it be a federal crime to burn the flag? Would there be a fine, or could the arsonist expect prison time? How much of money should be put towards enforcing the law?

I think a law against burning the flag would almost justify burning the flag. It is a symbol of our nation, but that's all. There's no reason to fine someone or jail them or worse over a symbol. The flag stands for the people of this nation first and foremost. It represents all Americans, not just the ones we agree with.

so you believe the government should dictate what the best forms of protest are and only allow specific kinds of protests? what if the government said, you can only protest in the middle of an empty field, not in any cities because that would annoy people and hurt your cause.
my point is, its not the governments place to tell people how they can or cannot freely express themselves.

I don't think the gov't should regulate protests if they're hurting their cause (heck, the way most protestors have been for the past 40 years, I WANT them to shoot themselves in the foot). I was using that example as a reason why protestors should, of their own accord, cease and desist their flag-burning.

I think gov't should ban flag-burning because it's an offence against the dignity of the nation, not to help some hippie swine get their message across more effectively.

Ah, but the flag does not stand for a particular party or government. If you're trying to protest the gov't by burning your flag, you are sadly misinformed.
I could say that about the KKK but they are still allowed to march.

I hate to jump into a conversation without reading the previous 17 pages of input, but I really feel a need to stick my opinion out there.

I think that flag burning should remain a legal right. I've never personally burned a flag, and I think the idea of burning a flag is downright silly. However, I think it would be ridiculous to issue a constitutional law banning flag burning. The Constitution protects freedom of speech, even if such speech is not popular.

I cannot think of a reason why burning the flag should be illegal. People have a right to be unhappy, even when others cannot understand why these people are unhappy. Americans have the Constitutional right to speak against anything they wish, even the establishment that grants them the right to do so.

On a practical level, how would such a law against flag burning be upheld? Would it be a federal crime to burn the flag? Would there be a fine, or could the arsonist expect prison time? How much of money should be put towards enforcing the law?

I think a law against burning the flag would almost justify burning the flag. It is a symbol of our nation, but that's all. There's no reason to fine someone or jail them or worse over a symbol. The flag stands for the people of this nation first and foremost. It represents all Americans, not just the ones we agree with.

I had been trying to say that previously, you just said it better and with more words. So nicely done.

I hate to jump into a conversation without reading the previous 17 pages of input, but I really feel a need to stick my opinion out there.

I think that flag burning should remain a legal right. I've never personally burned a flag, and I think the idea of burning a flag is downright silly. However, I think it would be ridiculous to issue a constitutional law banning flag burning. The Constitution protects freedom of speech, even if such speech is not popular.

I cannot think of a reason why burning the flag should be illegal. People have a right to be unhappy, even when others cannot understand why these people are unhappy. Americans have the Constitutional right to speak against anything they wish, even the establishment that grants them the right to do so.

On a practical level, how would such a law against flag burning be upheld? Would it be a federal crime to burn the flag? Would there be a fine, or could the arsonist expect prison time? How much of money should be put towards enforcing the law?

I think a law against burning the flag would almost justify burning the flag. It is a symbol of our nation, but that's all. There's no reason to fine someone or jail them or worse over a symbol. The flag stands for the people of this nation first and foremost. It represents all Americans, not just the ones we agree with.

Youve basically expessed what 75% of people are saying in the past 18 pages :) :D

What?? That doesn't even make sense. He's saying you can protest without having to resort to the "nuclear option" of burning a flag, and you're talking about banning newspapers. wtf mate
you can also protest if writing an unpopular newspaper is illegal. if you don't agree with something, you can't outlaw it.

saying you dont like the government is not treasonous under any law in this country.

For the umpteenth time, burning a flag doesn't equate to saying you hate the gov't!!!! A flag does not represent whatever political faction happens to be in power at the time (except in totalitarian dictatorships, but I hope you got the point)

I could say that about the KKK but they are still allowed to march.Ah, but the flag does not stand for a particular party or government. If you're trying to protest the gov't by burning your flag, you are sadly misinformed.

Has the Klan burned many flags of late? How are they relevant?

It's actually spelled Koran. Just look at any word processing program...
actually it's not spelled either way. you know why? because the original spelling is in Arabic. these are transliterations, they are only meant to sound like the original word. so long as everyone understands what your talking about, it doesn't matter.
and by the way, http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=qu%27ran nice try.

Has the Klan burned many flags of late? How are they relevant?
Besides being mentioned early on by the original poster (if I remember right) it is another example of a group that does stuff that is not popular but is still allowed to have their say as long as it does not harm others

Your carpet belongs to you, and you alone. Your country's flag "belongs" to all its citizens.
so if i go to your house and take down your flag, and say "its my turn" thats alright?
whether or not you say yes, its still the property of whoever purchased it. I'm sorry, theres no way to explain this to you. YOU DO NOT OWN SOMEONE ELSES FLAG. there is just no other way to say it. im sorry.

so if i go to your house and take down your flag, and say "its my turn" thats alright?
whether or not you say yes, its still the property of whoever purchased it. I'm sorry, theres no way to explain this to you. YOU DO NOT OWN SOMEONE ELSES FLAG. there is just no other way to say it. im sorry.

I'll say yes anyhow. I put "belongs" in quotations to show that, while each individual flag is the property of whoever purchased it, The Flag, as a symbol, is far more than a piece of property to be used and disposed of as you please. I'm not going to bother debating the point with you any more, as by your last (incredibly patronizing) statement, you proved that you are not worth my time. Good evening to you, sir.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to think that civil rights should be contingent on someone agreeing with them. Why does it seem that so many feel that they have rights, but the next fellow doesn't? I personally have never burned a flag, and I don't plan to any time soon, but I don't feel it should be a crime punishable by jail much less some of the more extreme punishments suggested on this tread. Freedom of expression is for ALL -- not just for those who agree with us. Otherwise, democracy would be a sham (and no, I'm not saying I think democracy IS a sham). *sits back and awaits the inevitable childish flaming* :sniper:

Will you still hold that view knowing there are two possible retirements coming up?
edit: "This Supreme Court"
but anyway, I'm pretty sure anyone that far off would be filibustered.

I think gov't should ban flag-burning because it's an offence against the dignity of the nation, not to help some hippie swine get their message across more effectively.
so basically, your saying you don't agree with something, therefore it should be outlawed? wow. the "dignity of the nation" is not protected by any of the ammendments i've read.

so basically, your saying you don't agree with something, therefore it should be outlawed? wow. the "dignity of the nation" is not protected by any of the ammendments i've read.

And whether or not our nation has diginity is entirely your opinion anyway.

For the umpteenth time, burning a flag doesn't equate to saying you hate the gov't!!!! A flag does not represent whatever political faction happens to be in power at the time (except in totalitarian dictatorships, but I hope you got the point)
i was quoting someone who thought that. i then responded based on this assumption. as the argument you are making could easily be interperated (sp?) as being opinionative at best, i thought it was important to build off of what was already said by the person i was refuting.

Has the Klan burned many flags of late? How are they relevant?
its relevant because they say things that are unpopular, but it's still protected speech. kinda like flag burning you know?

Burning something isn't speech unless you're making signal fires. So no, burning of the flag does not constitute free speech.

As to whether it should be legal or not, I don't see a problem with it unless it presents a fire hazard.

Has the Klan burned many flags of late? How are they relevant?

Actually the Klan simultaneously burned three crosses in my city two weeks ago. The third one had leaflets around it threatening violence against urban blacks. Several FBI agents have been sent down here to figure out who did it.

If it helps any, it might depend on the size of the flag, I know that may sound like a crock of home grown BS, but I believe that if its a legal sized flag (1x2, 3x5, 5x7) then it might be illegal because those are "legal" flags (in theory, property of the US), any other size aren't considered legal. I am sure other countries have similar rules, or those just might be tradition, I'm not sure

this is stupid. if someone wants to burn a flag, let them. it doesn't matter if you don't agree with them! i don't agree with book burning, but it's perfectly legal.

I'll say yes anyhow. I put "belongs" in quotations to show that, while each individual flag is the property of whoever purchased it, The Flag, as a symbol, is far more than a piece of property to be used and disposed of as you please. I'm not going to bother debating the point with you any more, as by your last (incredibly patronizing) statement, you proved that you are not worth my time. Good evening to you, sir.
The state has no clear and compelling interest to mandate the revokation of first amendment rights to free speech in regard to the flag, as they can not mandate that a symbol be adored, only that it is a symbol. As it is a symbol, it can be used in any way, including in a negative fashion. The government can not mandate that it can not be.

My apologies for joining in late. I've only read the pages 1, 2, 17, 18 and 19 (this sure filled up fast for only 4 hours of posting), but i thought i'd throw this out there as well:

First, a summary of what i've read so you understand my logic's starting point:

People have been seeming to say that flag burning should be protected under the US constitution according to the laws of freedom of speech/expression (paraphrasing). The opposition to this arguement has (in the pages i've read) argued that it is a matter of respect for the nation, and are of the opinion that if you don't like the nation, just leave (albeit, they seem to have put it more forcefully).

Now, my gut instinct tells me that flag burning should be fine, under the previously stated arguements. It's supported by the logic that:

(1) A flag is a piece of fabric. It has no more feelings then a pile of elephent manure. Less, actually, as the elephant manure is liable to have a larger concentration of single-celled organisms.

(2) The concept of the flag harkens back to before the days of the Roman empire (note the absence of "Holy" in that title), when you needed something to seem timeless to be able to believe in it. It was to embody your ancestors, your family, and your future generations. However, as any pragmatist knows, nothing is timeless. Most of their "flags" and "symbols" have been lost in the intervening milennia, and will eventually be wiped clean (particularly if the human race wipes itself out, but that's another arguement). The US, i am sorry to say, is doomed to die. It was made by men, thus it is mortal like men. Protecting the "flag" will not necessarily make it live longer, and such concepts could quicken its deaths (provoking needless wars over stupid insults). If someone wants to burn it, good riddence.

(3) The USA is a very diversified region, and is known as the ethnic "melting pot". We've got people from every continent (even emessaries (sp?) from the Penguin Empire in Antarctica :P) As such, we've got a lot of competing interests, which inevitably lead to a human race for 'dominance'. While it's great to see that the US flag binds us together and gives us something to rally behind, i would prefer to find an ideological term that has no material basis. Ultimately, that would last far longer, be able to change as needed, and hopefully allow for social evolution (not permutation, but again, that's another discussion entirely).

Once all that is said, however, there's still a few gaps. For instance, while i am certain that there are a number of people out there who genuinely believe in the American flag and burn it as the hippies in the 60s did to give physical representation to their precied death of the American experiment, there's also a lot of mean spirited people in the world. Many would probably burn the flag just to spite the right wing of the government. It almost seems analagous to my limited understanding of the definition of criminal assault (note: I am not a lawyer by trade or interest, so my definition may not be accurate). A boxing match (circa 1920s) does not generally constitute grounds for a criminal investigation. However, going up and randomly beating the crap out of someone in the middle of the street does. The difference? From the amature's viewpoint, there is a lack of consent in the latter case.

Now, following this logic, i'm not saying that the USA couldn't do with a good "stiff upper lip", but it is mildly perplexing how ideological assault isn't a crime. This form of mental assault is even more aggravating in that there is a lack of recourse for the victims. Argue all you want about how stupid people are, the fact is that the vast majority of people are, at any given moment, lacking significant brain functions. Now, some might be 'relatively' more intelligent at any given time, but usually, we allow our baser instincts (and no, i'm not strictly refering to the psycho-sexual ones) to at least guide our judgement. Heck, this whole post began on the feeling of surmounting and defeating a "challange", yet i have been (i hope) rather intelligent in my arguements.

As an alternative to the constant bickering between whether it is "right to burn a symbol of the nation", might i instead ask whether it is "right" to invest soul and energy into such a symbol, when it is so flimsy and prone to destruction? Would it perhaps be better to collectively form a type of Jungian social unconscious (sp?) that embodied our love of our nation, yet was capable of being revised as we discover ugly truths about it (and, actually, parallel the US Constitution...)? Is there any evidence that this hasn't happened?

I'm speculating by this point. Please, tell me your opinions.

The Flag, as a symbol, is far more than a piece of property to be used and disposed of as you please.
In your opinion. As it is clearly a subjective opinion, it has no bearing on the law. lets assume that it is a symbol... so what? its still protected speech. just because it's a symbol someone else believes in, doesn't make it illegal to destroy. even if it's the symbol of an entire nation.

But that specific detail is a huge one. Thats like saying I ran over the flag by accident (I don't know, maybe it blew into the road) vs. I ran over a child by accident. I'm sure that the distinction between a life and an inanimate object can be generally accepted. Not to mention that the bill of rights says that we have the right to expression, but limits that by saying it cannot impede on the life liberty or property of someone else.

I think "symbolic" speech is pretty well accepted as well. A flag on its own IS a piece of fabric. It is the symbolic value that gets placed with it that makes a flag more than a t-shirt or any other piece of fabric. It is what the flag represents. Symbolic speech is an action that takes the place of speech. Also, as I pointed out, I say speech and include all the rights of the first amendment, which does include expression. Flag burning is a form of expression

I understand what you are saying, but I must again point out that the size of the detail is absolutely irrelevant to the logical structure of your argument. Regardless of whether the detail is "a huge one", the problem with the argument is the leap that you are taking between a statute that allows you to TALK about doing something, and actually being able to DO that thing.

Freedom of speech allows you to talk about killing someone, it does not let you kill them. I agree that flag-burning is a form of expression, but then any act could be considered a form of expression. That argument does not really lead us anywhere helpful, so we need to come up with better arguments either for or against. (That's what this thread was about, the essay project).

I understand what you are saying, but I must again point out that the size of the detail is absolutely irrelevant to the logical structure of your argument. Regardless of whether the detail is "a huge one", the problem with the argument is the leap that you are taking between a statute that allows you to TALK about doing something, and actually being able to DO that thing.

Freedom of speech allows you to talk about killing someone, it does not let you kill them. I agree that flag-burning is a form of expression, but then any act could be considered a form of expression. That argument does not really lead us anywhere helpful, so we need to come up with better arguments either for or against. (That's what this thread was about, the essay project).
Expression falls under first amendment rights. (see Tinker v. Des Moines for a bit more on this)

I find it sad that people trample all over the rights that men and woman have fought and died for, yet we sit here and whine about someone burning a peice of cloth. To sum it up, we need to stop bickering about little petty crap and focus on the real issues or elce that flag will lose its value and become meaningless.

There are a lot of things about this argument I don't understand.
Honestly, I really don't understand these things.

Firstly, I'll give my stance on flag burning, since it surely colours my opinions and questions. I believe it is a perfectly acceptable right to burn flags. I also believe that the flags of coutries are symbolic, and it is disrespectful to burn them. I don't let my Australian flag touch the ground, that's disrespectful, too. If someone accidentally lets it touch the ground, or lets it touch the ground without realizing, I don't get worked up, they intended no disrespect. Heck, the reason I own an Australian flag is because I bought it on the way to the olympics, where we wore them as capes. That could have been interpreted as disrespectful. We intended it as showing support for our country. We got cheered by many many people. All in the eye of the beholder, really.

So...what I want to know is....

When someone burns your countries flag, are you upset because they are burning the flag, your symbol? Or are you upset because they are showing extreme disrespect to something you hold dear?
One is like....um....perhaps the difference between burning a holy item, like a saints skeleton, and the other is like insulting your mother. Terrible comparison, I know. They are both important, though. Important, but different. Are we upset at the flag being burnt, or are we upset at the implied disrespect towards our country?

If the flag is so important, why do I see so many models wearing nothing but a bikini made from the American flag? Or at least with a similar pattern. Why can I buy comics where superheroes have the american flag as part of their costume? Isn't the flag important enough that it shouldn't be trivialized in this way? Or is this showing respect and support for the country (much like me wearing the Australian flag as a cape?). I can believe that for the superhero, depending how it's done. I have more trouble with wonder woman, but even that I can believe. I have a LOT of trouble believing that the american flag bikinis are respectful. I think they're a cute way of proclaiming your all-american status, but I hardly see how they are *respectful*. Just like wearing a drizabone and an akubra hat proclaims me as an Australian, it's not particularly respectful or patriotic. I don't really see how showing the american flags in pornographic or almost-pornographic photograps is respectful.

My other question is...why? I know it's a cultural thing, and Americans like making a big show of their flag. I can even see how the culture of american flag bikinis became popular. I don't get why. Can't you be proud of your country, and fly your flag proudly, without needing to see it everywhere? What, really, makes the american flag an attractive thing to see in a photo shoot of a girl? Why don't I see Australian flags in similar situations? This I don't really understand. Surely the people who the photographers are attempting (successfully or not) to appeal to with the flag in their pictures, surely those are the same people that love their flag and don't want to see it burnt? Or am I completely off track?

Why is it alright for a patriot to burn the flag, when disposing of it, but not for a protestor to burn the flag? It seems that there is nothing special about fire consuming fabric with that particular pattern. The important issue seems to be the statement being made, either "I respect this flag" or "I am disrespecting this flag, and what it stands for". That seems to very clearly fall under a form of expression. Am I misinterpreting this, and would a patriot who, while hanging the flag up each morning, accidentally drops it get a fine?

What if there really is nothing magical about the flag, other than the implied disrespect to your country (which can be strong. I was disgusted when watching video of indonesians burning the Australian flag. See, it happens to other countries, too). If there really is nothing magical about the flag, and what we are really upset is the disrespect shown towards your country (as I was when watching that video), then, really, what's the problem?
Are we upset that they are showing this much disrespect? Should the amount of disrespect they can show be reduced? (have a protest, but be polite!). Is it more or less acceptable to burn the countries flag as it is to dump a truckload of cow dung on parliaments steps? That happened here, too. I'm equally insulted.

Then again...that's the point. I'm insulted. I'm upset. That's what the protestors, in both cases, were trying to do. They succeeded. Should we ban insults? The point of insults is to upset another person.

It seems that I'm strongly in support for peoples rights to burn flags. Having said that, however, I don't see how removing peoples rights to burn their flag removes their freedom of speech. It just removes one specific freedom, leaving all the rest. If they were protesting their right to burn flags, sure, it's appropriate. If they are protesting the governments foreign trade policy, then it's not necessary for them to burn a flag to express themselves. Just like it wouldn't stop freedom of speech if newspapers were banned. Or magazines. As long as there are other unrestricted avenues of expression, you still have freedom of speech. It would be silly to argue that unless I have the right to write words in lighter fluid on my driveway that I have no freedom of speech. I don't need to burn the Australian flag to express dissatisfaction with my country. Heck, I don't even have the right to bear arms, nor the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech (yes, I've checked our constitution). It's great that Americans have the freedom of speech guaranteed to them. That's just wonderful. It doesn't mean that if it's not guaranteed in your constution that you will be denied that freedom.
It's great that Americans can burn their flag as a form of free speech. It doesn't mean that if they are denied that one avenue, they are unable to express themselves in other ways, and still use or abuse their free speech.

I am so confused over this whole argument, really.

In your opinion. As it is clearly a subjective opinion, it has no bearing on the law. lets assume that it is a symbol... so what? its still protected speech. just because it's a symbol someone else believes in, doesn't make it illegal to destroy. even if it's the symbol of an entire nation.

Since what the topic asked for was people's opinions on the subject, I think you're the one who's barking up the wrong tree here.

Well, first of all, flag burning is a physical action, it has nothing to do with speaking, so no, it doesn't fall under free speech. Period. You can't really argue that it is without sounding like an idiot or someone that doesn't speak English - or both. So, quite simply, the 100+ people that said "yea, its free speech" are wrong. Nowhere in the Bill of Rights are people granted freedom of action, therefore burning flags is not protected by the Constitution.

That said, I think people who burn the United States flag should have their ass kicked by two-hundred midgets until every bone in their body is broken, and then be deported to Canada to receive medical care. However, I don't think it should be illegal, as long as you do it on your property. On the other hand, the dickhead that burned the flag on the steps of the Capitol Building was guilty as charged, and should have been sentenced accordingly. It is not his place or his right to light anything on fire on the Capitol steps.

I understand what you are saying, but I must again point out that the size of the detail is absolutely irrelevant to the logical structure of your argument. Regardless of whether the detail is "a huge one", the problem with the argument is the leap that you are taking between a statute that allows you to TALK about doing something, and actually being able to DO that thing.

Freedom of speech allows you to talk about killing someone, it does not let you kill them. I agree that flag-burning is a form of expression, but then any act could be considered a form of expression. That argument does not really lead us anywhere helpful, so we need to come up with better arguments either for or against. (That's what this thread was about, the essay project).

sorry, I guess I didn't really read what I had written...I had originally written it with that jump, and thought that I had fixed it before posting...my bad

I'm curious. We seem to keep coming back to it being the American flag...What if it was a different flag, one that instead of representing "freedom" and "equallity" represented hatred and opression? Would that change peoples opinions (this is mostly aimed at those saying flag burning is wrong)

I would like to say that the US flag will always stand for freedom, and will continue to move closer towards freedom and true equality, but what if one day it came to represent the exact opposite?

Nowhere in the Bill of Rights are people granted freedom of action, therefore burning flags is not protected by the Constitution.

I think (note: think, not sure about this) that it does fall under symbolic speach, and am sure it falls under freedom of expression

I think (note: think, not sure about this) that it does fall under symbolic speach, and am sure it falls under freedom of expression

"Symbolic speech?" That's protected under the Bill of Rights? News to me. Besides, last I checked, freedom of expression isn't a protected right, either, under the Bill of Rights, so that's out... and using freedom of expression as an excuse as stupid, because under that label I could express my opinion of flag burners by lighting stuff on fire in their yard. Which I can't. Besides, this thread isn't about whether flag burning is freedom of expression, it's about freedom of speech, which is why anyone claiming that is wrong. Why don't you quote everything I said, instead of one sentence? Because I'm right?

Well, first of all, flag burning is a physical action, it has nothing to do with speaking, so no, it doesn't fall under free speech. Period. You can't really argue that it is without sounding like an idiot or someone that doesn't speak English - or both. So, quite simply, the 100+ people that said "yea, its free speech" are wrong. Nowhere in the Bill of Rights are people granted freedom of action, therefore burning flags is not protected by the Constitution.

That said, I think people who burn the United States flag should have their ass kicked by two-hundred midgets until every bone in their body is broken, and then be deported to Canada to receive medical care. However, I don't think it should be illegal, as long as you do it on your property. On the other hand, the dickhead that burned the flag on the steps of the Capitol Building was guilty as charged, and should have been sentenced accordingly. It is not his place or his right to light anything on fire on the Capitol steps.

"Symbolic speech?" That's protected under the Bill of Rights? News to me. Besides, last I checked, freedom of expression isn't a protected right, either, under the Bill of Rights, so that's out... and using freedom of expression as an excuse as stupid, because under that label I could express my opinion of flag burners by lighting stuff on fire in their yard. Which I can't. Besides, this thread isn't about whether flag burning is freedom of expression, it's about freedom of speech, which is why anyone claiming that is wrong. Why don't you quote everything I said, instead of one sentence? Because I'm right?


actually, having just read the first amendment, I tip my hat to you and offer my apologies. You were right, and I was wrong. The first amendment reads thusly:

"Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."(http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1 )


However, according to supreme court cases, symbolic speech does make a difference. And no, you could not burn someone elses property. As I have stated several times before, you cannot damage anyone elses property in any way. You could not even burn it on their property as it is private property, and would be trespassing. You could burn a picture of them, you could protest them, but you cannot damage anyone elses property or take their life.

However, according to supreme court cases, symbolic speech does make a difference. And no, you could not burn someone elses property. As I have stated several times before, you cannot damage anyone elses property in any way. You could not even burn it on their property as it is private property, and would be trespassing. You could burn a picture of them, you could protest them, but you cannot damage anyone elses property or take their life.

Yeah, I know, but I was making a comparison to the situation mentioned in the beginning of this thread, where the asshole burned the flag on the steps of the Capitol Building, which they allowed because he waved the Constitution in their faces unjustly.

Yeah, I know, but I was making a comparison to the situation mentioned in the beginning of this thread, where the asshole burned the flag on the steps of the Capitol Building, which they allowed because he waved the Constitution in their faces unjustly.
I wish I knew more about the case itself...I mean, if he had a permit to protest there, at that time, then he was within his rights...if he just decided to do it, then he should have been struck down...not because of the flag burning, but because it wouldnt be considered a peaceful protest

I wish I knew more about the case itself...I mean, if he had a permit to protest there, at that time, then he was within his rights...if he just decided to do it, then he should have been struck down...not because of the flag burning, but because it wouldnt be considered a peaceful protest

Even if he had a permit to protest there, he still broke the law when he lit something on fire on the steps, be it a U.S. flag or a rug.

Even if he had a permit to protest there, he still broke the law when he lit something on fire on the steps, be it a U.S. flag or a rug.

thats where I get stuck, since I know very little about fire laws in other states...for example, in my town, you're supposed to have a burners permit in order to have a bonfire on your property...however, if the fire is being used to cook, then it is legal no matter what. So basicly, if you roast a marshmallow, then you don't need to pay for a permit. go figure.

Same rule applies on town and state parks in my area...so I would think a controled fire anywhere would be legal so long as you cooked on the flames. *shrug*

to be honest, I didn't even take into consideration fire laws and such.

thats where I get stuck, since I know very little about fire laws in other states...for example, in my town, you're supposed to have a burners permit in order to have a bonfire on your property...however, if the fire is being used to cook, then it is legal no matter what. So basicly, if you roast a marshmallow, then you don't need to pay for a permit. go figure.

Same rule applies on town and state parks in my area...so I would think a controled fire anywhere would be legal so long as you cooked on the flames. *shrug*

to be honest, I didn't even take into consideration fire laws and such.

Huh... Where do you live, out of curiosity? California? I have never even heard of such a law in America... but I've heard of some really wierd laws in California, so that could explain some things. For instance, in some California city (Los Angeles, maybe... could be wrong) you are actually allowed to do Yoga in the street, naked, but you aren't allowed to say "under God" in the Pledge of Allegience.

I could see a law like the one you mentioned being abused majorly.

Officer: What the fuck are you doing?
Citizen: Cooking this park bench!
Officer: Oh, I see. Carry on, then.

Huh... Where do you live, out of curiosity? California? I have never even heard of such a law in America... but I've heard of some really wierd laws in California, so that could explain some things. For instance, in some California city (Los Angeles, maybe... could be wrong) you are actually allowed to do Yoga in the street, naked, but you aren't allowed to say "under God" in the Pledge of Allegience.

I could see a law like the one you mentioned being abused majorly.

Officer: What the fuck are you doing?
Citizen: Cooking this park bench!
Officer: Oh, I see. Carry on, then.


Connecticut...land of messed up laws. You can't buy alcohol after 9 PM, none on sundays, can't kiss your wife on sunday in hartford, and can have a fire as long as it is used to cook. We rock.

Connecticut...land of messed up laws. You can't buy alcohol after 9 PM, none on sundays, can't kiss your wife on sunday in hartford, and can have a fire as long as it is used to cook. We rock.

ROFL! Yeah, well, I'm in Ohio - we just banned smoking in all bars and restaurants in Columbus. Fucking bars. You know, I loathe smoke with a passion, and hate its smell, but it's a fucking bar. You go there to do four things: smoke, get drunk, play pool, and watch strippers. What is this world coming to?

"Symbolic speech?" That's protected under the Bill of Rights? News to me. Besides, last I checked, freedom of expression isn't a protected right, either, under the Bill of Rights, so that's out... and using freedom of expression as an excuse as stupid, because under that label I could express my opinion of flag burners by lighting stuff on fire in their yard. Which I can't. Besides, this thread isn't about whether flag burning is freedom of expression, it's about freedom of speech, which is why anyone claiming that is wrong. Why don't you quote everything I said, instead of one sentence? Because I'm right?


Is PBS too lefty for you?

http://www.pbs.org/jefferson/enlight/flag.htm

"The guiding principles for the Supreme Court are found in the Bill of Rights, which comprise the first ten amendments to the Constitution. The First Amendment outlines personal liberties in the freedoms of religion, speech, press, assembly and the right to petition the government or the redress of grievances. Since the Bill of Rights was adopted, conflicts over what types of speech or expression are protected by the Constitution have led the Supreme Court to provide some additional clarification. The definition of speech has come to include not only spoken words, but also symbolic speech as well as the two forms of speech together (known by the court as "speech plus"). This definition sometimes requires citizens to tolerate unpopular speech for the sake of preserving the spirit of the freedom itself."

There are other references. Opinions and decenting opinions.

The fact is that the Constitution was not meant to be absolute in details.

Free speech with guidlines is not free speech.

What's the difference between me shouting at you "Fuck the USA" and simply torching a flag without saying anything.

Both reactions are the same.

You can't burn stuff in peoples yard as that is tresspassing. However, you could do a protest and burn something in the street in front of their house. Christians know this well as they frequently "protest" an abortion doctors home.

Finally what is speech? The action of communication. When a flag is burned in protest, does the act communicate anything?

Your right, there is a limit to protest. Also, it really piss me off. But why do people do it? It's humiliating to see our flag get burned down. I mean look at countries now that are supporting terrorist! They burn down U.S. flags like insane. Also, look at other countries being harassed like the Chinese revolt against Japan a few months ago. The Chinese burned down the flag and rioted like maniacs! I think you should just send them to prison or some prison camp or just put them in exile!

Your right, there is a limit to protest. Also, it really piss me off. But why do people do it? It's humiliating to see our flag get burned down. I mean look at countries now that are supporting terrorist! They burn down U.S. flags like insane. Also, look at other countries being harassed like the Chinese revolt against Japan a few months ago. The Chinese burned down the flag and rioted like maniacs! I think you should just send them to prison or some prison camp or just put them in exile!

i'm somewhat amazed that the Chinese gvt didn't do just that...They tend to be against all protest. Perhaps because this was a unifying cause, they permitted it? Who knows.

Anyway, as it has been said, to limit free speech means it is no longer free. I have seen people desecrate the flag. It made me mad, yes. But do they still have the right to do it? yes.

The fact is that the Constitution was not meant to be absolute in details.
Loose interpretations of the Constitution used to give unintended rights piss me off to no end.

Free speech with guidlines is not free speech.
Physical action is not speech, symbolic speech is a load of crap, and you are not required by law to agree with the Supreme Court, they decide stupid things all the time.

What's the difference between me shouting at you "Fuck the USA" and simply torching a flag without saying anything.
Ummm, fire is hot?

Both reactions are the same.
Not to me.

You can't burn stuff in peoples yard as that is tresspassing. However, you could do a protest and burn something in the street in front of their house. Christians know this well as they frequently "protest" an abortion doctors home.

Yeah, but this guy burned the flag on the steps of the Capitol Building.

Finally what is speech? The action of communication. When a flag is burned in protest, does the act communicate anything?
Speech is the act of communication through words, but nice try:


The faculty or act of speaking.
The faculty or act of expressing or describing thoughts, feelings, or perceptions by the articulation of words.
Something spoken; an utterance.
Vocal communication; conversation.
A talk or public address: “The best impromptu speeches are the ones written well in advance” (Ruth Gordon).
A printed copy of such an address.
One's habitual manner or style of speaking.
The language or dialect of a nation or region: American speech.
The sounding of a musical instrument.
The study of oral communication, speech sounds, and vocal physiology.
Archaic. Rumor.
The faculty or act of expressing thoughts, feelings, or perceptions by the articulation of words.
Vocal communication; conversation.
words or conduct used to communicate or express a thought
the communication or expression of thoughts in spoken words
1: the act of delivering a formal spoken communication to an audience; "he listened to an address on minor Roman poets" [syn: address]
2: (language) communication by word of mouth; "his speech was garbled"; "he uttered harsh language"; "he recorded the spoken language of the streets" [syn: speech communication, spoken communication, spoken language, language, voice communication, oral communication]
3: something spoken; "he could hear them uttering merry speeches"
4: the exchange of spoken words; "they were perfectly comfortable together without speech"
5: your characteristic style or manner of expressing yourself orally; "his manner of speaking was quite abrupt"; "her speech was barren of southernisms"; "I detected a slight accent in his speech" [syn: manner of speaking, delivery]
6: a lengthy rebuke; "a good lecture was my father's idea of discipline"; "the teacher gave him a talking to" [syn: lecture, talking to]
7: words making up the dialogue of a play; "the actor forgot his speech" [syn: actor's line, words]
8: the mental faculty or power of vocal communication; "language sets homo sapiens apart from all other animals"


Besides, if you'd actually read everything I've said, I said that I believe flag burning should be legal, it's just not freedom of speech.

Huh... Where do you live, out of curiosity? California? I have never even heard of such a law in America...

Actually they tend to be city ordinances and many have them.


but I've heard of some really wierd laws in California, so that could explain some things. For instance, in some California city (Los Angeles, maybe... could be wrong) you are actually allowed to do Yoga in the street, naked,


Ok come on. That's the yoga guy in San Francisco. He is a kook. Harmless in fact. You don't have any out your way?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/09/22/BAGQO8SQIK1.DTL


but you aren't allowed to say "under God" in the Pledge of Allegience.

If you are talking Newdow, SCOTUS reversed it.


I could see a law like the one you mentioned being abused majorly.


Officer: What the fuck are you doing?
Citizen: Cooking this park bench!
Officer: Oh, I see. Carry on, then.

Bad example. Parks that allow fires have set areas or only allow for coal stoves and what not near such an area.

Actually they tend to be city ordinances and many have them.
They're more prevalent in CA.

If you are talking Newdow, SCOTUS reversed it.
Ahhh, you're right. My bad.


Bad example. Parks that allow fires have set areas or require only allow for coal stoves and what not near such an area.

He was saying they didn't - he was saying that stuff could be cooked anywhere public. So my example was fine.

They're more prevalent in CA.

Ahh but we also have major fires so the need is greator.


He was saying they didn't - he was saying that stuff could be cooked anywhere public. So my example was fine.

Opps my fault.....

He was saying they didn't - he was saying that stuff could be cooked anywhere public. So my example was fine.

I believe that is the official ruling in my area in the town parks. I may be wrong, but I also try to stay out of the town parks to avoid the creepier people. Although the hobo is nice [/hijack]

If they're burning it, they don't like what it stands for.

I view flag-burners with the same disgust as I view KKK members who burn the cross. In my view, flag-burners should be deported to Zimbabwe and have their citizenships revoked and see how well they like it there.

KKK members should just be shot, Judge Dredd-style.Though I think that's the stupidest thing you've ever said, I could look back at your posts to see for sure.

Who says flag burners hate America? If they did that, they wouldn't be burning flags, but important things.
They want to make a political statement, they want to change the country, make it better, that's why they burn the flag. They burn it as a symbol of what is wrong with the country, not of what is right.

If they didn't care about the country, why would they bother burning flags in the first place?

If they didn't care about the country, why would they bother burning flags in the first place?

cause it's fun for the whole family?

Texpunditistan, you are allowed your opinion. In fact, as christian Identity, I support it, as I know of none of my fellow Klansmen who burn the cross, however I do know many that light it, which is a cermemony that dates back hundreds of years and stems from people lighting signal fires as a sign of war.

cause it's fun for the whole family?

:D

Texpunditistan, you are allowed your opinion. In fact, as christian Identity, I support it, as I know of none of my fellow Klansmen who burn the cross, however I do know many that light it, which is a cermemony that dates back hundreds of years and stems from people lighting signal fires as a sign of war.
I'm not touching this with a 10 foot pole, because I'd definitely get forumbanned and probably deleted.

There's a big step between saying that people should respect the flag and the things that it stands for, and then banning people burning it. Since when did a free country start banning things just because they were offensive? Apart from the UK, which today has laws going through to ban people offending religions... but then I don't agree with that either. :rolleyes:

In any case, it's a very unhealthy way to think of a flag. You treat it with religious reverance, when it is really just a piece of cloth with certain colours on it. It may stand for many special things, but that does not make it special in itself. Burning the flag does no harm to freedom, it does not harm to democracy. If something does no harm, then let it go on. That is what freedom actually means.

Honestly, you Yanks get so uptight about the damn flag. The flag is not a holy symbol, guys. It's a piece of colourful cloth. Okay, it's quite a nice design, but it does not symbolise freedom and liberty and Christ knows what else. It symbolises America. If you want to support freedom and liberty, let those who dissent do it how they like, as long as they're not bloody well impinging on anyone else's rights, 'kay? Or is this "you have the freedom and liberty to express your opinions in ways which we have approved"?

If someone burned a Union Jack we'd think they were being a damn sight rude, but I doubt it would get to the House of fucking Lords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courts_of_England_and_Wales#House_of_Lords).

New Watenho']Honestly, you Yanks get so uptight about the damn flag. The flag is not a holy symbol, guys. It's a piece of colourful cloth. Okay, it's quite a nice design, but it does not symbolise freedom and liberty and Christ knows what else. It symbolises America. If you want to support freedom and liberty, let those who dissent do it how they like, as long as they're not bloody well impinging on anyone else's rights, 'kay? Or is this "you have the freedom and liberty to express your opinions in ways which we have approved"?

If someone burned a Union Jack we'd think they were being a damn sight rude, but I doubt it would get to the House of fucking Lords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courts_of_England_and_Wales#House_of_Lords).


See, that's where the fun is. Nobody here would give a fuck about people burning flags, as a result people don't burn flags so very often.

I get the impression that anytime somebody is burning a flag in the States, there's going to be a bunch of outraged conservatives around shouting bloody murder and demanding the burners to be deported/shot on the spot/tortured/burned themselves (select appropriate). They are the ones who will draw the attention to the whole flag burning thing in the first place, just burning a flag without people watching and shouting would be a bit pointless really, wouldn't it?
See, it's like a Pavlovian conditioning : People can file petitions and write letters all their lives, it's not going to give them the attention they need to turn their issue into a public debate. They burn a flag, and suddenly all those people they've been trying to reach for ages give them attention. It got them where they wanted to be - in discussion.

I burned a flag once, hell I even stole the damned thing from a flag pole in the town square. Nobody cared, it had no effect as a political statement, so I don't think I would do it again. It's not worth the effort, at least not in my country.

Why? .... Because I've never understood this argument.

Its quite simple. Burning a flag is a symbol of an expression of an opinion. The United States (as far as I am aware) is a country which values freedom of speech and expression. Therefore you cannot disallow them their right to express their opinion.

Today i spent a class period watching a movie that has to do with the Texas v. Johnson case of 1989. For those of you who dont know... this is a case where Johnson burned and spit on an American Flag on the steps of the Capitol Building. He was arrested and charged with desecration and disorderly conduct. The case went all the way to the supreme court, at which point he won the case based on free speech.

my question to you: where do we draw the line on free speech.
THe supreme court must take each 'free speech' case independently of another, as they make decisions on a case by case basis (and therefore, flag burning is not illegal in the constitution). There was a 'flag protection act of 1989' brought up by Bush Sr., not sure if it ever took effect, and if it did, if it is still in effect.

Constitutionally, theres nothing banning the act of flag burning.
Legally, if there isnt a law against it, i would be in support of such a law making flag burning illegal
Personally, i think 1 of 3 things should happen:
1. flag burners are lined up and shot
2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there
3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.


flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well. They burn the same symbol that covers the graves of soldiers who died for these assholes to have the right to protest, they insult every living patriotic american, and denegrate the greatness of this country. Honestly, send them to Pakistan or Syria or Saudi Arabia and let them burn a Pakistani flag, or a Syrian flag, or a Saudi Ararbian flag... they would be dead before the flag is completely burned. Protesting is fine, its a civil liberty that we have, but crossing the line into sheer and utter disrespect, is unnecessary and disgusting.


WHAT DO YOU THINK... I need to be able to write a sort of essay on this tomorrow in class arguing the different viewpoints.. and i want to hear everyone elses.

This is what I think:

HEIL!

---

Sorry, just couldn't resist. Fake patriots piss me off, you see.

flags, no matter how good the intentions of the people waving them, are always symbols of oppression.
flags represent the nation state, the nation state segregates people along the lines of imaginary boarders, the nation state that justifies war through a thin illusion of xenophobia and false pride.
by burning the flag the individual is declaring to those that benefit from patriotic ignorance that he is not willing to be oppressed.

flags, no matter how good the intentions of the people waving them, are always symbols of oppression.
flags represent the nation state, the nation state segregates people along the lines of imaginary boarders, the nation state that justifies war through a thin illusion of xenophobia and false pride.
by burning the flag the individual is declaring to those that benefit from patriotic ignorance that he is not willing to be oppressed.

unfortunately, you have avery negative outlook on the flag. Also, unfortunately, no nation is perfect, nor a utopia. There is always an oppression of some kind to get to power. There is no flase pride, and no one uses it to justify war. it is a symbol of the nation, its great power and responisiblity, and righteousness. by bruning a flag, a person is expressing hatred and anger towards the nation that gives the freedom to live hwo tehy want. this is utterly unneccesary, and disrespectful, and prroof that they are not responsible and rational enough to not be oppressed. thus they are begging for attention in a very negative way.

this is utterly unneccesary, and disrespectful, and prroof that they are not responsible and rational enough to not be oppressed. thus they are begging for attention in a very negative way.


Hmm... and it's rational to be this upset because of the burning of a bit of coloured cloth?

They express anger, so you did understand them after all. They express their feelings about the flaws and the problems of their country. If they hated it, they would leave it or go and harm it, they wouldn't draw attention to its problems, thus giving the public the chance to notice them and solve them.

As I said before, it's simple conditioning. You give them more attention when they are burning flags than you do if they are simply demonstrating, writing letters, signing petitions etc. They learned that burning flags is a very effective way of getting attention, so they will continue...

Hmm... and it's rational to be this upset because of the burning of a bit of coloured cloth?

They express anger, so you did understand them after all. They express their feelings about the flaws and the problems of their country. If they hated it, they would leave it or go and harm it, they wouldn't draw attention to its problems, thus giving the public the chance to notice them and solve them.

As I said before, it's simple conditioning. You give them more attention when they are burning flags than you do if they are simply demonstrating, writing letters, signing petitions etc. They learned that burning flags is a very effective way of getting attention, so they will continue...

A true patriot is one who points out where a country goes wrong...

unfortunately, you have avery negative outlook on the flag. Also, unfortunately, no nation is perfect, nor a utopia. There is always an oppression of some kind to get to power. There is no flase pride, and no one uses it to justify war. it is a symbol of the nation, its great power and responisiblity, and righteousness. by bruning a flag, a person is expressing hatred and anger towards the nation that gives the freedom to live hwo tehy want. this is utterly unneccesary, and disrespectful, and prroof that they are not responsible and rational enough to not be oppressed. thus they are begging for attention in a very negative way.

sorry but 77.7% of people here seem to disagree, any explanation for this?

My $0.02.

As a means of protest, Burining a flag would be symbolic of viewing the United States as dead (in its ideals).... The proper way to dispose of a "worn" or "damaged" flag, or if it has been "defiled" (touched the ground) is by "burning it". Most protestors burn the flag as a symbol of the United State's "defilement" of its values or goals as a country. It most certainly is a form of free-speech, and a proper "image" of the state of the country as seen in the eyes of those protesting.

You can't outlaw "flag-burning"; because "burning" is the normative and proper form of disposal. (I don't want to count how-many of these so called "patriotic" US citizens I've seen who have been "Defiling" the flag through improper display.

When a flag is displayed, horizontally or vertically, the blue field is to be to the left from the POV of the viewer.

The Flag is not to be worn as clothing.

The flag is not to touch the ground.

The flag is not to be flown at night, unless it is lit. IF not, it is to be removed, in a solemn ceremony at sundown.

If the flag is faded, worn, tattered, or if it touches the ground, it is to be disposed of by burning in a solemn ceremony (Most local Fire Departments can do this for you, if needed).

When hoisted, at sunrise. It is to go up rapidly and in a flourish. When lowered at sundown, it is to be slow and solemn. When placed at half-mast, it is to be raised to the top of the flag pole in a flourish; and then slowly lowered to half-mast.

Loose interpretations of the Constitution used to give unintended rights piss me off to no end.


Physical action is not speech, symbolic speech is a load of crap, and you are not required by law to agree with the Supreme Court, they decide stupid things all the time.


Ummm, fire is hot?


Not to me.



Yeah, but this guy burned the flag on the steps of the Capitol Building.


Speech is the act of communication through words, but nice try:



Besides, if you'd actually read everything I've said, I said that I believe flag burning should be legal, it's just not freedom of speech.
Sigh:
From Tinker et al. v. Des Moines Independent Community School District et al.
"The District Court recognized that the wearing of an armband for the purpose of expressing certain views is the type of symbolic act that is within the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment. See West Virginia v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943); Stromberg v. California, 283 U.S. 359 (1931). Cf. Thornhill v. Alabama, 310 U.S. 88 (1940); Edwards v. South Carolina, 372 U.S. 229 (1963); Brown v. Louisiana, 383 U.S. 131 (1966). As we shall discuss, the wearing of armbands in the circumstances of this case was entirely divorced from actually or potentially disruptive conduct by those participating in it. It was closely akin to "pure speech" [506] which, we have repeatedly held, is entitled to comprehensive protection under the First Amendment. Cf. Cox v. Louisiana, 379 U.S. 536, 555 (1965); Adderley v. Florida, 385 U.S. 39 (1966)."

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.
well put.

well put.
It would be one thing if they were burning a person. A flag is just a piece of cloth.

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.


The good ol "I may not agree with what you say but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it"
That is class .. :)

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.
One of the more rational things said in this thread.

Those against flag burning often say something to the effect of "This is the country that gave them the right to protest at all so they shouldn't be allowed to disrespect it in that way." The problem is that by making this statement, you are envoking the freedom of protest garrunteed in the U.S. in order to take away that freedom. Secondly, it is not the U.S. that grants our rights it is various other authoritarian nations that try to take them away. Rights such as freedom of speech are natural rights and it is therefore acceptible for us to expect (though not take for grantit) the garruntee of these natural rights.

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.


may I offer you a cookie kid sir?

seriously tho, very well stated.

Technically, I've fought for what the flag stands for in combat.

That said, I feel that what the flag stands for is the embodiment of ideas held forth in the Constitution.

You can't burn an idea. The flag is only a symbolic piece of cloth.

They can burn it all they like, and the ideas still stand untouched.

One of those ideas is that they have the freedom of expression.

Despite their best efforts, they still have that freedom. And I fought so that they could have that freedom.

Amen buddy!

I've always thought that just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I have to kill them or imprison them.

Certainly, if they pose a threat to life and limb those options can be considered.

But ranting and protesting - that's something that people should be permitted to do.

I have a pet theory that I've seen work here in the Washington DC area.

There are all kinds of people protesting here every day. Kinds you probably can't imagine, with messages crazier than the craziest troll you ever saw on NationStates General.

And people here learn to ignore certain crazies. We learn by exposure - we learn how to think, how to make judgment calls. We also get to hear different points of view, and make judgments.

These people don't cause problems, because they get the ranting off their chests. It's a good thing.

if america is so bad, why does any educated person in the world want to come to america to learn, to work, to live. it is the rights and the freedoms to better your life!!! Flags divide no one, they only unify people of the same nation. America is no bully, only a protector of the peace, but were no pussies either... if a nation fucks with us, we hit them back, with harder force, we dont get bossed around!

I'm educated. I live in the world. I don't want to go to America to a) learn, b) work or c) live.

If flags unify the peoples of one nation, they exclude all those outside of that nation, thus dividing.

Have they burned the country? Have they burned what it stands for? no

The only thing they've done to piss people off is showing the fiercley patriotic an aspect of reality that disturbs them, which is probably why they get so angry.

I'm educated. I live in the world. I don't want to go to America to a) learn, b) work or c) live.

If flags unify the peoples of one nation, they exclude all those outside of that nation, thus dividing.

In conclusion - fuck you, you arrogant, ignorant bastard.

You need to cool off. For someone who claims to be educated, you have quite the temper, and a limited vocabulary.

You need to cool off. For someone who claims to be educated, you have quite the temper, and a limited vocabulary.

Temper has nothing to do with your education - that post just happened to annoy me. As for the extent of my vocabulary, you can't judge that on the basis of one relatively short post. My lexis is actually quite extensive, but I don't feel like I need to show that off at every chance I get.

What's the big deal? Next thing you'll be punishing people for disrespecting pictures of Chairman Mao.

Idolaters. :rolleyes:

Temper has nothing to do with your education - that post just happened to annoy me. As for the extent of my vocabulary, you can't judge that on the basis of one relatively short post. My lexis is actually quite extensive, but I don't feel like I need to show that off at every chance I get.

be that as it may, I would suggest editing that post before you get an official warning. Personal attacks aren't allowed, and the all-powerful mods won't appreciate it.

just a friendly suggestion

be that as it may, I would suggest editing that post before you get an official warning. Personal attacks aren't allowed, and the all-powerful mods won't appreciate it.

just a friendly suggestion

Edited. Thinking about it, it was uncalled for - the post I responded to just annoyed me quite considerably :rolleyes: Thanks for the tip though. I'll try to keep my temper under control in the future.

"Wah, why do you have to hate me because I want to protest?" Yeah right. I protected this nation, so it's within my freedom of speech to tell you to kiss my fat white ass. Go ahead and bitch and complain, but it's crossing the boundaries of decency when you burn a flag. Here's some more ranting.

You know, I feel that people have lost touch with morals, values, and respect in general. Ok, so the flag is cloth, just a symbol, blah blah blah. I've heard everything that the yuppie sqawn can spew out of their mouths. There's a reason that respect is paid to our nations flag. The thought of having the freedom to do so should generate patriotism, not stupid and selfish thoughts that you should burn it to gain attention. I served as a Marine for 4 years. I not only served for the president, or my friends and family, but I also served the flag. In a way, that flag was the only thing I had to relate to the concept that I was a Marine who also served for the hopeful greater good of my nation. Yes, the flag is a symbol, that stands for many proud people who served for and under that flag. Many people have given up their old lives just to be able to say that "mundane" pledge of allegience. There's a reason that when we buried my fellow Marine, his family was presented with the flag of the United States of America. It's the symbol that helped shape him into a man. The symbol that he lived and died to help preserve. If you cant display simple respect, then your just damn lazy. Damn people, if nothing else, it's just the right thing to do.
:sigh: how far we have fallen......

RIP CPL Paul C Holter ........................never forget.................

For starters, the military doesn't set the policies in this country. Serving a country doesn't mean you own it. Otherwise, we wouldn't be much of a democracy, would we?

I protected this nation, so it's within my freedom of speech to tell you to kiss my fat white ass.
That's within your rights anyway. Soldiers aren't the only people who can tell others to fuck off. What you can't do is prevent them from telling you to fuck off. And that's what flag-burning is. It's not a violent action any more than burning a cigarette or turning on a lighter on is. Therefore, it's protected by the First amendment, which you swore an oath to defend. Tables turned much?

Go ahead and bitch and complain, but it's crossing the boundaries of decency when you burn a flag.
You can argue with them all you want about decency, but you don't have the right to legislate your conception of decency onto them. That's why we have a Constitution.

You know, I feel that people have lost touch with morals, values, and respect in general.
That's cool. I don't, and you can't tell me that your morals are better than mine. I don't want to burn a flag, but I don't care if someone else does. The Constitution agrees with me.

Ok, so the flag is cloth, just a symbol, blah blah blah. I've heard everything that the yuppie sqawn can spew out of their mouths.
So do you propose banning every news outlet that criticizes American policy?

There's a reason that respect is paid to our nations flag. The thought of having the freedom to do so should generate patriotism, not stupid and selfish thoughts that you should burn it to gain attention.
So we should celebrate our country's freedoms by banning them?

I served as a Marine for 4 years. I not only served for the president, or my friends and family, but I also served the flag. In a way, that flag was the only thing I had to relate to the concept that I was a Marine who also served for the hopeful greater good of my nation. Yes, the flag is a symbol, that stands for many proud people who served for and under that flag. Many people have given up their old lives just to be able to say that "mundane" pledge of allegience. There's a reason that when we buried my fellow Marine, his family was presented with the flag of the United States of America. It's the symbol that helped shape him into a man. The symbol that he lived and died to help preserve. If you cant display simple respect, then your just damn lazy. Damn people, if nothing else, it's just the right thing to do.
I'm sorry for you're friend, and what you said was nice. And I tend to agree with you - I wouldn't burn a flag. But I damn well respect someone else's rights to do it. They're not disrespecting service either - to them, the flag is a symbol of not only the good parts of America (the soldiers) but also the bad (the decisionmakers, from their perspective). Have you ever seen the sign - "Support our troops - bring them home?" That's the sentiment. I understand if you disagree, but you can't outlaw everything you disagree with.

It's not a free speech issue. It's safety issue and a property issue. If you're going to burn a flag, make sure it's your flag and don't endanger anyone else or their property.

However, the proposed ban on flag burning is based on the notion that it's a speech issue. It is not intended to actually ban the physical burning of flags. Afterall, that's how they're supposed to be disposed of. It's only intended to ban the speech aspect. Obviously then, such a ban is intended to be an infringement on freedom of speech.

Douche-bagistan
i think you can have an opinion and show it without burning a flag.. there are many protests that happen where flags arent burned... its simple.. the flag is burned in contempt and for the sake of controversy and possibly violence

"i think". People are entitled to think, and everyone disagrees on things. You are no more right than anyone else, nor any more wrong. But you have no right to tell people what they can and cannot do if it harms no one but themselves and consenting individuals. The right to protest is contained within the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Peaceful protests are purely constitutional. But the reason we have riot squads are to prevent them from getting out of hand. No one is perfect, and riot squadmen have abused protestors as well.

Don't claim to know about the Constitution if you have no clue about the First Amendment. Read it first before making such a stupid claim.

I believe that burning the flag is protected by Freedom of Speech.

HOWEVER, here's what burning the flag means. It means you do not like what the United States of America was founded on. It means you do not like the things that the United States and it's Constitution stands for. It means you don't believe in the powers the Constitution grants the US government, nor the rights of citizens that the Constitution gratns.

Burning the flag because you don't like the current administration is ASININE. The Flag does not represent the current administration. It is not a symbol of current US policies. It is a symbol of our rights and responsiblities as ctizens of the United States.

In the late 1700s, when our founding fathers were upset with "the current administration," did they go burning British flags? No. What would that have accomplished? Nothing. Instead, they took real action.


So basically, in my opinion, while any American has the RIGHT to burn the flag, they should consider what they are saying by burning the flag.

Flag burning should absolutely be legal. Just because you are patriotic doesn't mean your opinion matters at all in regards to others' right to freedom of speech. Burning a flag is a form of expression. Speaking or writing against the United States is a form of expression. Patriotic songs are a form of expression. In order to preserve the freedoms that you say the flag stands for, burning it must be legal. You may think flag-burners are stupid, but they are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours.


Good call. Places like America are great places to live because we have all of these freedoms. Many countries don't allow people to voice their opinions. It is the fact that our laws protect the rights of people like the KKK and flag burners that make America great, despite how upset that makes the rest of the country.

"Wah, why do you have to hate me because I want to protest?" Yeah right. I protected this nation, so it's within my freedom of speech to tell you to kiss my fat white ass. Go ahead and bitch and complain, but it's crossing the boundaries of decency when you burn a flag. Here's some more ranting.

You know, I feel that people have lost touch with morals, values, and respect in general. Ok, so the flag is cloth, just a symbol, blah blah blah. I've heard everything that the yuppie sqawn can spew out of their mouths. There's a reason that respect is paid to our nations flag. The thought of having the freedom to do so should generate patriotism, not stupid and selfish thoughts that you should burn it to gain attention. I served as a Marine for 4 years. I not only served for the president, or my friends and family, but I also served the flag. In a way, that flag was the only thing I had to relate to the concept that I was a Marine who also served for the hopeful greater good of my nation. Yes, the flag is a symbol, that stands for many proud people who served for and under that flag. Many people have given up their old lives just to be able to say that "mundane" pledge of allegience. There's a reason that when we buried my fellow Marine, his family was presented with the flag of the United States of America. It's the symbol that helped shape him into a man. The symbol that he lived and died to help preserve. If you cant display simple respect, then your just damn lazy. Damn people, if nothing else, it's just the right thing to do.
:sigh: how far we have fallen......

RIP CPL Paul C Holter ........................never forget.................

"If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

- Justice Brennan, majority opinion, Texas v. Johnson.

:sigh: why did this have to be dug up? :rolleyes:

HOWEVER, here's what burning the flag means. It means you do not like what the United States of America was founded on. It means you do not like the things that the United States and it's Constitution stands for. It means you don't believe in the powers the Constitution grants the US government, nor the rights of citizens that the Constitution gratns.

Burning the flag because you don't like the current administration is ASININE. The Flag does not represent the current administration. It is not a symbol of current US policies. It is a symbol of our rights and responsiblities as ctizens of the United States.

In the late 1700s, when our founding fathers were upset with "the current administration," did they go burning British flags? No. What would that have accomplished? Nothing. Instead, they took real action.


So basically, in my opinion, while any American has the RIGHT to burn the flag, they should consider what they are saying by burning the flag.
I would not say that that is necessarily what they are saying. That is what meaning is easiest to ascribe to their actions.
But these people don't necessarily hate the US and what it was founded on. I believe someone once brought up an example of a protest after the war in Iraq where they burned flags and stated that it was because the flag had been soiled by foreign blood in an illegitimate struggle over oil, and they were disposing of it publicly as befits it.
Now, I'm not saying I agree with them, it may be the case that this example was fictional, and it may also be the case that they just wanted something catchy to say. But it is entirely possible that someone could actually believe something like that as the reason to burn a flag.

I would personally think it comes down to something like this:
The person who was the one who did the action is the one that gets to decide what they mean by it, others merely interpret.

I would not say that that is necessarily what they are saying. That is what meaning is easiest to ascribe to their actions.
But these people don't necessarily hate the US and what it was founded on. I believe someone once brought up an example of a protest after the war in Iraq where they burned flags and stated that it was because the flag had been soiled by foreign blood in an illegitimate struggle over oil, and they were disposing of it publicly as befits it.
Now, I'm not saying I agree with them, it may be the case that this example was fictional, and it may also be the case that they just wanted something catchy to say. But it is entirely possible that someone could actually believe something like that as the reason to burn a flag.

I would personally think it comes down to something like this:
The person who was the one who did the action is the one that gets to decide what they mean by it, others merely interpret.

The flag doesn't stand for the actions of ANY administration. Not even George Washington's adminstration. The flag has nothing to do with that. I don't care what you mean to say when you burn the flag. When you burn the flag, you're saying that you don't agree with the principles on which America was founded on--one of those being the right to overthrow a corrupt government, which makes flag burning ironic.

And if this isn't what you mean to say when you burn the flag, then why are you burning the flag other than to piss off uber-cons?

one thing *I've* never understood about america (related to flag)

Whats with the swearing of allegience in school?! 'Allegience' to a cause is a *CHOICE* by making it mandatory you undermine the very value of making that CHOICE! Granted its highly unlikely that I shall ever swear allegience to anything, or anyone. But for those who make that choice and the personal sacrifice that goes with it surely the mandatory swearing by people, or children, who merely say the words without the accompanying commitment is devalueing their own commitment and sacrifice.



What happens if a child refuses to say those words? :confused:

The flag doesn't stand for the actions of ANY administration. Not even George Washington's adminstration. The flag has nothing to do with that. I don't care what you mean to say when you burn the flag. When you burn the flag, you're saying that you don't agree with the principles on which America was founded on--one of those being the right to overthrow a corrupt government, which makes flag burning ironic.

And if this isn't what you mean to say when you burn the flag, then why are you burning the flag other than to piss off uber-cons?
There isn't a prohibition against being stupid in the constitution.

The flag doesn't stand for the actions of ANY administration. Not even George Washington's adminstration. The flag has nothing to do with that. I don't care what you mean to say when you burn the flag. When you burn the flag, you're saying that you don't agree with the principles on which America was founded on--one of those being the right to overthrow a corrupt government, which makes flag burning ironic.
I don't think the example i provided did that, though. It wasn't 'we burn the flag because we don't like what you are doing', it was 'we burn the flag because we feel your actions have desecrated it and it must be disposed of in an honourable manner'.
And if this isn't what you mean to say when you burn the flag, then why are you burning the flag other than to piss off uber-cons?
From what I have seen, many people do just burn the flag because it pisses people off, and they want to do ao. But I would think there are still other possible reasons.

EDIT:
There isn't a prohibition against being stupid in the constitution.
Unblogged, iin his/her earlier post, said that s/he doesn't support the illegalization of flag burning. I would imagine for a similar reason to the one you just supplied.

It's not the cloth that matters, my ingenuous friend. It's the fact that the flag represents all that many of us value more than life itself: the right to be free. Can you say "symbolism is powerful stuff" boys and girls? :)
Sorry I haven't cought up on this thread yet...

But have you considered the flagburner's point of veiw? If I burned my flag, it would be because I shared your opinion, but felt the nation no longer stood for it.
It's exactly because symbolism is powerful stuff. It's the statement that the nation has sunk so low, the flagburner can no longer defend it in good conscience.

you should be able to do it, but it should be frowned upon.

same with abortion.

I don't think the example i provided did that, though. It wasn't 'we burn the flag because we don't like what you are doing', it was 'we burn the flag because we feel your actions have desecrated it and it must be disposed of in an honourable manner'.

From what I have seen, many people do just burn the flag because it pisses people off, and they want to do ao. But I would think there are still other possible reasons.

EDIT:

Unblogged, iin his/her earlier post, said that s/he doesn't support the illegalization of flag burning. I would imagine for a similar reason to the one you just supplied.

If they are burning a SPECIFIC flag (not just any flag), then that is understandable. After all, the US Flag Code states that the honourable way of disposing of old, tattered flags IS BURNING.

But yea, CSW, I don't think that burning the flag should be illegal or unconstitutional, I just think that people should consider what they're saying when they burn the flag.

I thought the results of the poll would have surficed to put a close to this question

if it was my personal belief that i want everyone with black hair murdered by next sunday, would you protect and respect my personal beliefs...

you see, personal beliefs dont make an action right or wrong, moral or immoral, its the national and state laws and doctrines that decide whats right or not.
I would defend your right to your insane ideas. And I would prevent you from putting them into practice. That is what a free society is about.

No, Zimbabwe is fine compared to Somalia. Send them there! See how they like it there where they can burn a flag and then get randomly shot in some clan fight.

Honestly, I agree with you all the way. Flag burners should be punished considerably for such as disgusting act.

You know i agree with you. You know what lets just tell people how they have to think while we are at it to.

you should be able to do it, but it should be frowned upon.

same with abortion.

Abortion is different its murder by burnning a flag you are not hurting any one. not so with Abortion

Nowt wrong with flag burning. If a democratic country that endorses free speech arrests a person for burning a flag, are they democratic? No.



Wrong. We cannot punish someone for disagreeing with you.

Actually the United States is suppose to be a democratic republic. Which runs a little differently than a democracy.
A true democracy would follow the majority rule. In otherwords if the majority of the people in the United States said to burn a flag burner.... it would still be a democracy. Freedom of speech is not neccessarily equivalent with or to democracy unless the majority agrees so.... and continues to agree so.
And as far as punishment.... well you can see how a true democracy might deal with it.
Just some food for thought.

If they are burning a SPECIFIC flag (not just any flag), then that is understandable. After all, the US Flag Code states that the honourable way of disposing of old, tattered flags IS BURNING.
I've just realized that my argument is stretched a bit thin, possibly quite a bit thin by the fact that it seems more like someone saying that an illegitimate war has soiled the flag in concept, and it would seem rather difficult to define the 'soiling in concept' bit.

Actually the United States is suppose to be a democratic republic. Which runs a little differently than a democracy.
A true democracy would follow the majority rule. In otherwords if the majority of the people in the United States said to burn a flag burner.... it would still be a democracy. Freedom of speech is not neccessarily equivalent with or to democracy unless the majority agrees so.... and continues to agree so.
And as far as punishment.... well you can see how a true democracy might deal with it.
Just some food for thought.

there is no such thing as a true democracy not even athens had one. Only rich men can vote. To be a true democracy the people would have to vote on every law. Which is of course impossible in most countries simply becasuse how long it would take to count the votes because of the ammount of people.

It doesn't have to be messy.

People die protecting the flag and free speech.

The people who burn the flag are utilizing that free speech that has been provided for them.





If I was American, I would burn a flag to protest against the fact that people have to die for this country. I would use the right they gave to me to keep many many more young soldiers to suffer violent, early deaths.

No country is worth dying for. America isn't, my home isn't. And personally, I think it's ridiculous to die for a piece of cloths.
I didn't ask anyone to die for me, for my freedom or for my security. I don't owe any soldier anything. I don't owe any flag anything. That's why I wouldn't feel bad about burning a flag - only it's a waste of money :cool:

there is no such thing as a true democracy not even athens had one. Only rich men can vote. To be a true democracy the people would have to vote on every law. Which is of course impossible in most countries simply becasuse how long it would take to count the votes because of the ammount of people.

Ever been to Switzerland?

If I was American, I would burn a flag to protest against the fact that people have to die for this country. I would use the right they gave to me to keep many many more young soldiers to suffer violent, early deaths.

No country is worth dying for. America isn't, my home isn't. And personally, I think it's ridiculous to die for a piece of cloths.
I didn't ask anyone to die for me, for my freedom or for my security. I don't owe any soldier anything. I don't owe any flag anything. That's why I wouldn't feel bad about burning a flag - only it's a waste of money :cool:

I disagree with you there are some things worth dying for. However whats happening in Iraq certainly isnt one of them.

If I was American, I would burn a flag to protest against the fact that people have to die for this country. I would use the right they gave to me to keep many many more young soldiers to suffer violent, early deaths.

No country is worth dying for. America isn't, my home isn't. And personally, I think it's ridiculous to die for a piece of cloths.
I didn't ask anyone to die for me, for my freedom or for my security. I don't owe any soldier anything. I don't owe any flag anything. That's why I wouldn't feel bad about burning a flag - only it's a waste of money :cool:
I'll agree, some flags merely are cloth.

And of course, to you, a non-American, the American flag only is a piece of cloth...but seeing as you're not American, it's also impossible for you to grasp the concept of it being more than simply cloth...but that's not just because you're not America. It's also because you don't understand symbolism.

Ever been to Switzerland?

no and im sure they dont have a true democracy. Because to do that every person in the country would have to vote on every little insignifacant detail that has to do with the county. Its quite impossible in any country with a population above 1 million.

no and im sure they dont have a true democracy. Because to do that every person in the country would have to vote on every little insignifacant detail that has to do with the county. Its quite impossible in any country with a population above 1 million.

Direct democracy in Switzerland
In Switzerland, single majorities are sufficient at the town, city, and state (canton and half-canton) level, but at the national level, "double majorities" may be required. The intent of the double majorities is simply to ensure any citizen-made law's legitimacy (Kobach, 1993).

Double majorities are, first, the approval by a majority of those voting, and, second, a majority of states in which a majority of those voting approve the ballot measure. A citizen-proposed law cannot be passed in Switzerland at the national level if a majority of the people approve, but a majority of the states disapprove (Kobach, 1993). For referendums or proposition in general terms (like the principle of a general revision of the Constitution), the majority of those voting is enough (Swiss constitution, 2005).


I agree not perfect because not everone votes on every single piece of legislation

there is no such thing as a true democracy not even athens had one. Only rich men can vote. To be a true democracy the people would have to vote on every law. Which is of course impossible in most countries simply becasuse how long it would take to count the votes because of the ammount of people.

I was just pointing out that assumptions were being made. Not that I find a true democracy tennable. You could also have a democratic republic that didn't believe in carte blanche freedom of speech... that is all I am saying.

As far a flag burning is concerned ... it is to say the least in poor taste and would be a hindrance not help in furthering someone's cause. If someone wants to have discussion on socio-political matters I hardly see where burninig a flag would further progress . If anything the flag burning becomes the focus and the pertinent issues are lost in the melee.

So what comes into to question.... why are they burning a flag unless to show contempt. A contempt that is not looking for true change. That is something I could not get behind. It is just another form of someone striking out in anger and causing destruction. Useless destruction at that.

I, personally strongly believe that flag burning should be illegal...free speech? This is a symbol of our country! Why not burn the Declaration of Independance, the Constitution and everything else we hold sacred while your at it?

Burning the flag of the United States is an act of rebellion! if you dont want to live here then no one is stopping you from leaving, and if you want to protest there are better ways to do this then to burn your own flag!

I, personally strongly believe that flag burning should be illegal...free speech? This is a symbol of our country! Why not burn the Declaration of Independance, the Constitution and everything else we hold sacred while your at it?

Burning the flag of the United States is an act of rebellion! if you dont want to live here then no one is stopping you from leaving, and if you want to protest there are better ways to do this then to burn your own flag!
I really don't think this is a good argument against flag burning...

...yes, burning the flag is an act of rebellion...but that's what America was founded on (and why we let the South back into the Union) (and ironically enough, what the flag represents).

I, personally strongly believe that flag burning should be illegal...free speech? This is a symbol of our country! Why not burn the Declaration of Independance, the Constitution and everything else we hold sacred while your at it?

Burning the flag of the United States is an act of rebellion! if you dont want to live here then no one is stopping you from leaving, and if you want to protest there are better ways to do this then to burn your own flag!

Because the Declaration is owned by the people its a shared item no one owns it therefore no one has the right to decide what happens to it except the representitaves of the people. A flag can be personally owned and if they leggally own the flag it is their personal right to burn it if they show the desire. They have a right to and it isnt rebellion its freedom of speech distastefull freedom of speech but they have a right to be distastefull just as you have a right to be a right wing nut

There are some people who would burn the flag just because they can. Other people burn the flag in protest. The flag is a symbol and they are burning that symbol not because they hate what it represents but to illustrate what they feel is already being done to their country. If you're protesting a war, you don't burn the flag to show that you hope your country loses the war. You're burning the flag to show that for being in this war, the leaders are sending your homeland down in flames. That's the most justifiable reason I can think of burning the flag.

As far as burning the flag just to burn it, you're weird and that should be pointed out to you. Don't burn things just to see them burn.

Sorry if this has already been said but there are twenty-five freaking pages.

It is

It

if america is so bad, why does any educated person in the world want to come to america to learn, to work, to live. it is the rights and the freedoms to better your life!!! Flags divide no one, they only unify people of the same nation. America is no bully, only a protector of the peace, but were no pussies either... if a nation fucks with us, we hit them back, with harder force, we dont get bossed around!


one reason why many educated people go to the USA: here in my country, education is free. Everybody with just some brains can get highest-level education. Now, we have too many educated people and too few people doing the less intelligent jobs - the cleverer you are, the smaller your chance to get a job. That's why people leave - not because they dream of the "land of the free"

Nationalism and Patriotism do always divide people because if you form a group you exclude all those who are no members. That's enough reason for me to oppose both

Mahatma Ghandi was a protector of peace. Martin Luther King Jr was a protector of peace. A nation on war ISN'T! :headbang:

Burning someone else's flag: illegal.
Burning a flag that you purchased: legal.

By the way, cheap plastic flags made in China probably just melt.

i think 1 of 3 things should happen:

1. flag burners are lined up and shot

3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.

.

Hell, I love the way you love your country and it's so called principle of "Liberty". Nice demonstration of your ideas of democracy man!



2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there


.

Now, I come from what you call a third world country and let me tell you, I L-O-V-E it with all its flaws and problems. Although we might not be as rich as the United States, we are rich in valours the American society is completely lacking of...

Now regarding the issue of burning flags, including both national and other country's, I think it shouldn't be permitted at all. It's a national symbol and even though some may say that it's just a way to express yourself, there are other ways of expressing your point of view without recurring to such an extreme meassure.

People burn American and British flags all the time here in the UK, because we as a nation have no pride, and nothing happens.

If I burned a Saudi flag, however, I would be given a jail sentence. Probably longer than the average sentence of most paedophiles, too.

I'll agree, some flags merely are cloth.

And of course, to you, a non-American, the American flag only is a piece of cloth...but seeing as you're not American, it's also impossible for you to grasp the concept of it being more than simply cloth...but that's not just because you're not America. It's also because you don't understand symbolism.


You know what? Even people who are not American have flags!! :p And yet, I don't worship my own flag - by the way I have never seen our flag hanging somewhere...

Yes, I do understand a symbolism behind flags. To me flags represent: oppression, hatred, ignorance, patriotism, violence, bloodshed, brainwashing and intolerance. :mad:

Just as I think that burning the American flag should be allowed (but people should be more aware of the message they're sending), I think it is also appropriate to burn the flags of other nations if you don't agree with the ideals that that particular nation stands for (and not just that nations current politicians).

Like...would anyone really disagree with burning the Nazi flag, based on the ideals that the Nazi flag stand for?

one reason why many educated people go to the USA: here in my country, education is free. Everybody with just some brains can get highest-level education. Now, we have too many educated people and too few people doing the less intelligent jobs - the cleverer you are, the smaller your chance to get a job. That's why people leave - not because they dream of the "land of the free"

Nationalism and Patriotism do always divide people because if you form a group you exclude all those who are no members. That's enough reason for me to oppose both

Mahatma Ghandi was a protector of peace. Martin Luther King Jr was a protector of peace. A nation on war ISN'T! :headbang:
Education is generally free in all of the industrialized nations...

You know what? Even people who are not American have flags!! :p And yet, I don't worship my own flag - by the way I have never seen our flag hanging somewhere...

Yes, I do understand a symbolism behind flags. To me flags represent: oppression, hatred, ignorance, patriotism, violence, bloodshed, brainwashing and intolerance. :mad:
Well, like I said, you're not American, and I understand that non-Americans have flags.

Here, however, we actually discuss the significance of the American flag and what has meant since 1776.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/

Education is generally free in all of the industrialized nations...

Only in some "industrialized nations", Education for the rich is better than education for the poor...

Today i spent a class period watching a movie that has to do with the Texas v. Johnson case of 1989. For those of you who dont know... this is a case where Johnson burned and spit on an American Flag on the steps of the Capitol Building. He was arrested and charged with desecration and disorderly conduct. The case went all the way to the supreme court, at which point he won the case based on free speech.

my question to you: where do we draw the line on free speech.
THe supreme court must take each 'free speech' case independently of another, as they make decisions on a case by case basis (and therefore, flag burning is not illegal in the constitution). There was a 'flag protection act of 1989' brought up by Bush Sr., not sure if it ever took effect, and if it did, if it is still in effect.

Constitutionally, theres nothing banning the act of flag burning.
Legally, if there isnt a law against it, i would be in support of such a law making flag burning illegal
Personally, i think 1 of 3 things should happen:
1. flag burners are lined up and shot
2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there
3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.


flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well. They burn the same symbol that covers the graves of soldiers who died for these assholes to have the right to protest, they insult every living patriotic american, and denegrate the greatness of this country. Honestly, send them to Pakistan or Syria or Saudi Arabia and let them burn a Pakistani flag, or a Syrian flag, or a Saudi Ararbian flag... they would be dead before the flag is completely burned. Protesting is fine, its a civil liberty that we have, but crossing the line into sheer and utter disrespect, is unnecessary and disgusting.


WHAT DO YOU THINK... I need to be able to write a sort of essay on this tomorrow in class arguing the different viewpoints.. and i want to hear everyone elses.

I have to completely agree with you. What these liberal-satists, I mean protestors, don't realize is they are burning the symbol that stands for the very right that are claiming to exploit, I mean utilize.

I have to completely agree with you. What these liberal-satists, I mean protestors, don't realize is they are burning the symbol that stands for the very right that are claiming to exploit, I mean utilize.
Which is why, despite the irony, burning the flag should be legal. People should just pay more attention to the message they're sending by burning it.

Well, like I said, you're not American, and I understand that non-Americans have flags.

Here, however, we actually discuss the significance of the American flag and what has meant since 1776.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/


Thanks for this link, Unblogged. I'm afraid, I can't give you a link explaining what Austria's flag has meant since ... since - I don't know when it was created - 1200? 1100? In fact, "my" flag doesn't mean anything to me. All of you are free to burn one if you hate what it stands for. This is called "tolerance".

Well, like I said, you're not American, and I understand that non-Americans have flags.

Here, however, we actually discuss the significance of the American flag and what has meant since 1776.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577016/Flag_of_the_United_States.html

This is a bit more factual.

Thanks for this link, Unblogged. I'm afraid, I can't give you a link explaining what Austria's flag has meant since ... since - I don't know when it was created - 1200? 1100? In fact, "my" flag doesn't mean anything to me. All of you are free to burn one if you hate what it stands for. This is called "tolerance".
I think that if you don't like what the US flag stands for, you should burn it as well, but I think that most people that burn the US flag don't understand what it symbolizes.

if america is so bad, why does any educated person in the world want to come to america to learn, to work, to live. it is the rights and the freedoms to better your life!!! Flags divide no one, they only unify people of the same nation. America is no bully, only a protector of the peace, but were no pussies either... if a nation fucks with us, we hit them back, with harder force, we dont get bossed around!
.

- LOL -
'
Listen man, I consider myself an educated person, and let me tell you, the LAST place in the world i would choose to live in would be the United States.

Now, are YOU really protectors of the peace? YOU GOTTA BE KIDING ME...
Is dropping bombs on inocent people a way to enforce peace on the world? Did the Iraki really have nuclear bombs? COME ON!!!! You guys don't actually care about what happens to people in Irak... Protecting the peace and the liberty of people in other countries its just a mere pretext to justify your interventionist policies... If you stopped poking your nose in other people's business you wouldn't have terrorism in your country...

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577016/Flag_of_the_United_States.html

This is a bit more factual.
...I don't see anything wrong with the link I provided...

People of all nations should be allowed to

burn flags of all nations (by no means ONLY their own, but also that one),

burn money of all nations (strangely, in many countries it is legal to burn a flag, but illegal to burn banknotes),

burn their own houses, if that poses no public threat of arson (i.e. if these are secluded mansions/cottages) and if they do not try to swindle insurance,

and indeed set their own bodies ablaze if they feel like it aqnd waive the right to medical treatment should they survive.

Because the Declaration is owned by the people its a shared item no one owns it therefore no one has the right to decide what happens to it except the representitaves of the people. A flag can be personally owned and if they leggally own the flag it is their personal right to burn it if they show the desire. They have a right to and it isnt rebellion its freedom of speech distastefull freedom of speech but they have a right to be distastefull just as you have a right to be a right wing nut

Haha, its funny how after reading just one of my posts you label me a "right wing nut"...so everyone who believes burning the American flag is a right wing nut to you huh? wow.

Eventhough people are burning they're own flags which are personal property, that doesnt make this okay..This is the very symbol of our nation and your going to burn it? What the **** is wrong with you? If you dont appreciate what that flag stands for and everything you are given under this great country then I dont believe you deserve to be an American citizen..furthermore, burning the flag is an insult to the men and women in our armed forces who are endangering they're lives so people like you can sit at home and burn flags.

Haha, its funny how after reading one of my posts you label me a "right wing nut"...so everyone who believes burning the American flag is a right wing nut to you huh? wow.

Eventhough people are burning they're own flags which are personal property, that doesnt make this okay..This is the very symbol of our nation and your going to burn it? What the **** is wrong with you? If you dont appreciate what that flag stands for and everything you are given under this great country then I dont believe you deserve to be an American citizen..furthermore, burning the flag is an insult to the men and women in our armed forces who are endangering they're lives so people like you can sit at home and burn flags.
So we throw out the first amendment for the hell of it?


Honestly, you can mandate a symbol, but you can't mandate respect by legislative fiat.

Haha, its funny how after reading just one of my posts you label me a "right wing nut"...so everyone who believes burning the American flag is a right wing nut to you huh? wow.

Eventhough people are burning they're own flags which are personal property, that doesnt make this okay..This is the very symbol of our nation and your going to burn it? What the **** is wrong with you? If you dont appreciate what that flag stands for and everything you are given under this great country then I dont believe you deserve to be an American citizen..furthermore, burning the flag is an insult to the men and women in our armed forces who are endangering they're lives so people like you can sit at home and burn flags.
Here's an idea, make it illegal to buy flags that are: plastic, stickers, made into cloting and made in china, taiwan, or otherwise outside the US or its protectorates

So we throw out the first amendment for the hell of it?


Honestly, you can mandate a symbol, but you can't mandate respect by legislative fiat.

Who is saying "throw out the first amendment for the hell of it"...those arent my words...of course I dont think the first amendment should be thrown out, but there has to be some limits.

Among what else I said, flag burning is an insult to our men and women in the armed forces...people who would give their lives for this country and there are people here that dont even appreciate that enough to NOT burn the symbol of which those men and women are fighting to protect.

I think that if you don't like what the US flag stands for, you should burn it as well, but I think that most people that burn the US flag don't understand what it symbolizes.

It's a symbol. And like most symbols, it symbolises different things to different people....

Haha, its funny how after reading just one of my posts you label me a "right wing nut"...so everyone who believes burning the American flag is a right wing nut to you huh? wow.

Eventhough people are burning they're own flags which are personal property, that doesnt make this okay..This is the very symbol of our nation and your going to burn it? What the **** is wrong with you? If you dont appreciate what that flag stands for and everything you are given under this great country then I dont believe you deserve to be an American citizen..furthermore, burning the flag is an insult to the men and women in our armed forces who are endangering they're lives so people like you can sit at home and burn flags.

So you intend to force people to respect the flag through draconian laws? Why don't you just make it illegal to have un-American thoughts?

Who is saying "throw out the first amendment for the hell of it"...those arent my words...of course I dont think the first amendment should be thrown out, but there has to be some limits.

Among what else I said, flag burning is an insult to our men and women in the armed forces...people who would give their lives for this country and there are people here that dont even appreciate that enough to NOT burn the symbol for which those men and women are fighting to protect.


Maybe that's because these people never asked anybody in the Army to die for them.
I never understood why I should be grateful to people who decided to do this work and take the pay for it? They decided to do that, on what basis do they expect me to be grateful to them for killing other people???
(I'm not American, and I feel this way about every Army on this planet)

Maybe that's because these people never asked anybody in the Army to die for them.
I never understood why I should be grateful to people who decided to do this work and take the pay for it? They decided to do that, on what basis do they expect me to be grateful to them for killing other people???
(I'm not American, and I feel this way about every Army on this planet)

I feel the same way, too.

Maybe that's because these people never asked anybody in the Army to die for them.
I never understood why I should be grateful to people who decided to do this work and take the pay for it? They decided to do that, on what basis do they expect me to be grateful to them for killing other people???
(I'm not American, and I feel this way about every Army on this planet)

You dont feel that you should be gratefull to some man or women who would die to protect your rights? You must really not understand what it is like to be without your basic freedoms then or I doubt you would say such a thing.

You dont feel that you should be gratefull to some man or women who would die to protect your rights? You must really not understand what it is like to be without your basic freedoms then or I doubt you would say such a thing.

You don't get my point. I never asked them to die for my rights, so why should I be grateful? Every single person in the Army decided by themselves wether or not to take this job. If any of them took it believing that the rest of the country's eternal thanks are part of the bargain, he should have read that contract a bit more carefully.

Thankfully I never lived in any country that thought it necessary to attack another one, but the way I see the US Army at the moment, they are not dying for the rights of their citizens, but rather for the interest of their government. No need for the general public to be grateful, really...

You dont feel that you should be gratefull to some man or women who would die to protect your rights? You must really not understand what it is like to be without your basic freedoms then or I doubt you would say such a thing.
Regardless, the right to burn the flag was one of the rights they fought to protect.

I don't agree with burning the flag morally, because it is disrespectful to those that died protecting these rights and the things that the flag stands for, but there's no room to make the burning of the flag illegal.

You don't get my point. I never asked them to die for my rights, so why should I be grateful? Every single person in the Army decided by themselves wether or not to take this job. If any of them took it believing that the rest of the country's eternal thanks are part of the bargain, he should have read that contract a bit more carefully.

Thankfully I never lived in any country that thought it necessary to attack another one, but the way I see the US Army at the moment, they are not dying for the rights of their citizens, but rather for the interest of their government. No need for the general public to be grateful, really...
When a person joins the United States Army, he swears to protect the United States Constitution and the citizens of the United States.

You absolutely can not blame the soldiers who signed up to do these noble deeds for the bad judgment of the current administration.
...or maybe this is just a think you have to be American to understand...

When a person joins the United States Army, he swears to protect the United States Constitution and the citizens of the United States.

You absolutely can not blame the soldiers who signed up to do these noble deeds for the bad judgment of the current administration.
...or maybe this is just a think you have to be American to understand...

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't blame them. I know that they are just pawns in the game.

But if a person decides to be a pawn, why should I be grateful?

When a person joins the United States Army, he swears to protect the United States Constitution and the citizens of the United States.

You absolutely can not blame the soldiers who signed up to do these noble deeds for the bad judgment of the current administration.
...or maybe this is just a think you have to be American to understand...

I think what he is going on about more is the idea that American soldiers are out dying currently to protect our freedoms. Our freedoms were never threatened by Saddam Hussein and Iraq.

I live in a free society and am allowed to burn whatever flag i choose. Probably not in public due to the inciting racial hatred laws but hey

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't blame them. I know that they are just pawns in the game.

But if a person decides to be a pawn, why should I be grateful?
So, you're saying, no American soldier has ever died in a legitimate attempt to secure exactly what the American flag symbolizes?

Not the Patriots of the Revolutionary War who fought under the American flag?
Not the Union soldiers of the Civil War who fought under the American flag?
Not the soldiers of both World Wars who fought under the American flag?

I think what he is going on about more is the idea that American soldiers are out dying currently to protect our freedoms. Our freedoms were never threatened by Saddam Hussein and Iraq.

Never say never...

In a couple years Saddam could have gotten his hands on the stuff to make nukes and terrorists would have fairly easy access to it...I'M NOT DEFENDING THE WAR IN IRAQ! believe me I'm not, just pointing out that you should never EVER say never.

And it doesnt make much of a difference, American soldiers are going off to die in the name of their country, and that is what matters.

So, you're saying, no American soldier has ever died in a legitimate attempt to secure exactly what the American flag symbolizes?

Not the Patriots of the Revolutionary War who fought under the American flag?
Not the Union soldiers of the Civil War who fought under the American flag?
Not the soldiers of both World Wars who fought under the American flag?

Again, I'm NOT American. I don't know the individual motives of soldiers, really, if they are naive enough to believe that they are fighting for ideals, good for them. Fact is, hardly any war ever was fought for any ideal, those were added afterwards by the winners in order to justify things at home.
I don't see the point in being grateful for that, no.

"Our Flag"-- Author Unknown
Does the First Amendment give us the right to
desecrate the American flag?

Or is the flag a sacred symbol of our nation,
deserving protection by law?

Tough call?

"The Solution"

For those who want to light Old Glory on fire, stomp
all over it, or spit on it to make some sort of
"statement," I say let them do it. But under one
condition: they MUST get permission from three
sponsors.

First, you need permission of a war veteran....Perhaps
a Marine who fought at Iwo Jima? The American flag was
raised over Mount Surabachi upon the bodies of
thousands of dead buddies. Each night spent on Iwo
Jima meant half of everyone you knew would be dead
tomorrow, a coin flip away from a bloody end upon a
patch of sand your mother couldn't find on a map.

Or maybe ask a Vietnam vet who spent years tortured in
a small, filthy cell unfit for a dog. Or a Korean War
soldier who helped rescue half a nation from
Communism,
or a Desert Storm warrior who repulsed a bloody
dictator from raping and pillaging an innocent
country. That flag represented your mother and father,
your sister and brother, your friends, neighbors, and
everyone at home. I wonder what they would say if
someone asked them permission to burn the American
flag?

Second, you need a signature from an immigrant. Their
brothers and sisters may still languish in their
native land, often under tyranny, poverty and misery.
Or maybe they died on the way here, never to touch our
shores. Some have seen friends and family get tortured
and murdered by their own government for daring to do
things we take for granted every day. For those who
risked everything simply for the chance to become an
American, what kind of feelings do they have for the
flag when they Pledge Allegiance the first time? Go to
a naturalization ceremony and see for yourself, the
tears of pride, the thanks, the love and respect of
this nation, as they finally embrace the American flag
as their own. Ask one of them if it would be OK to
burn the flag or spit on it.

Third, you should get the signature of a mother. Not
just any mother. You need a mother of someone who gave
their life for America. It doesn't even have to be
from a war. It could be a cop. Or a fireman. Maybe a
Secret Service or NSA agent. Then again, it could be a
common foot soldier as well. When that son or daughter
is laid to rest, their family is given one gift by the
American people; an American flag. Go on. I dare you!
Ask that mother if you can spit on her flag. Away from
family, away from the precious shores of home, in the
face of overwhelming odds and often in the face of
death, the American flag inspires those who believe in
the American dream, the American promise, the American
vision...

Americans who don't appreciate the flag don't
appreciate this nation. And those who appreciate this
nation appreciate the American flag. So if you want to
desecrate the American flag, before you spit on it or
before you burn it, I have a simple request. Just ask
permission. Not from the Constitution. Not from some
obscure law. Not from the politicians or the pundits.
Instead, ask those who have defended our nation so
that we may be free today. Ask those who struggled to
reach our shores so that they may join us in the
American dream. And ask those who clutch a flag in
place of their sacrificed sons and daughters, given to
this nation so that others may be free. For we cannot
ask permission from those who died wishing they could,
just once ... or once again ... see, touch or kiss the
flag that stands for our nation, the United States of
America.

Go ahead. Ask. I dare you!



This is just something that I thought would make one think.

This is just something that I thought would make one think.

Cute.

Again, I'm NOT American. I don't know the individual motives of soldiers, really, if they are naive enough to believe that they are fighting for ideals, good for them. Fact is, hardly any war ever was fought for any ideal, those were added afterwards by the winners in order to justify things at home.
I don't see the point in being grateful for that, no.
Okay, what ideals were added after the Americans won their independence in the revolutionary war?

And as far as the Civil War, the only ideal that was added after the war was freeing the slaves...and that ideal was used almost as propaganda to get more people to get behind the north, but the real reason was fought for preservation of the Union...

Of course, I'm not even sure why I'm discussing this with you, because you seem to be here just to be difficult. You've quickly forgotten that I agree that flag burning should be LEGAL, but simply think people should think more about the message they send when they burn the flag, because IT IS SYMBOLIC, and unlike in other countries (apparently, judging by the posters on this thread so far), in the United States, the FLAG actually means something...and to mean, respect for the soldiers that died fighting under that flag, protecting freedoms we enjoy in the United States is only a MINOR reason that I think people should think more about what they say when they burn the flag...

Never say never...

In a couple years Saddam could have gotten his hands on the stuff to make nukes and terrorists would have fairly easy access to it...I'M NOT DEFENDING THE WAR IN IRAQ! believe me I'm not, just pointing out that you should never EVER say never.

And it doesnt make much of a difference, American soldiers are going off to die in the name of their country, and that is what matters.

In the last few years, both North Korea and Pakistan have gotten their hand on nuclear weapons. I didn't hear much about American soldiers in Pyonyang or Islamabad....

Sure, in a few years time Saddam might have gotten them as well, but he is far from the only threat, really. So, what does he have that the others don't? Oil? Good strategic position for further wars in the Middle East?
:confused:

I am in the military.... My opinion is that it is his right to do that...
but he did not have a permit to burn and for that should be punished serverely according to local laws...

This is just something that I thought would make one think.
This is essentially the reason that I think people should think more seriously about the message they are sending when they burn the flag, but if they understand what message they are sending, and want to send it anyway, then because of the First Amendment, which those veterans fought to uphold, we can not ban the burning of our flag, or any flag.

Who is saying "throw out the first amendment for the hell of it"...those arent my words...of course I dont think the first amendment should be thrown out, but there has to be some limits.

Among what else I said, flag burning is an insult to our men and women in the armed forces...people who would give their lives for this country and there are people here that dont even appreciate that enough to NOT burn the symbol of which those men and women are fighting to protect.
What justification do you have? The fact that it is a symbol? How does burning a flag make it any less of a symbol?

Burning the flag is an insult to everyone, not just those who served (and quite frankly, I really don't much care for this better then thou "I served" bullcrap, elitism is against the ideals of this nation and pretending that you are better then anyone else is highly anathma to the entire idea of this nation), but that really isn't the point, the point is that free speech is only limited in a few places, when it infringes on the rights of others, and banning free speech only serves the bolster the claims of those who would do such an action.


Again, I ask, what grounds do you have for banning free speech in this case? No one claims that burning a flag is an invitation to engage in fistcuffs, no one claims that it isn't speech. Everyone on your side seems to claim that because it is a symbol of our country, it must be respected, but I wasn't aware that the government was able to force people to respect the country. That's where this entire argument falls appart, one can mandate a symbol of a country, but one can not mandate respect as it forces people to conform to the wishes of the government, in violation of their right to free speech and thought.

This is turning too one dimensional. I'd should be allowed to burn the British flag,not that i ever would. And as long as i wasn't "inciting racial hatred" i'd burn any other flag

This is turning too one dimensional. I'd should be allowed to burn the British flag,not that i ever would. And as long as i wasn't "inciting racial hatred" i'd burn any other flag
If I lived in the UK, I might burn their flag, as I'm not sure I like the idea of constitutional monarchy, no matter how limited the monarch's power actually is...

But that's what burning the flag of a country should mean. It should mean you don't like the system, the way it operates, etc.

Okay, what ideals were added after the Americans won their independence in the revolutionary war?

And as far as the Civil War, the only ideal that was added after the war was freeing the slaves...and that ideal was used almost as propaganda to get more people to get behind the north, but the real reason was fought for preservation of the Union...

Of course, I'm not even sure why I'm discussing this with you, because you seem to be here just to be difficult. You've quickly forgotten that I agree that flag burning should be LEGAL, but simply think people should think more about the message they send when they burn the flag, because IT IS SYMBOLIC, and unlike in other countries (apparently, judging by the posters on this thread so far), in the United States, the FLAG actually means something...and to mean, respect for the soldiers that died fighting under that flag, protecting freedoms we enjoy in the United States is only a MINOR reason that I think people should think more about what they say when they burn the flag...

Well, if it didn't mean anything, people wouldn't burn it as there wouldn't be a point, right?

I'm not trying to be difficult, it just bugs me if people expect my gratitude for something I never asked for, that's all.

I think one of the main problems in this whole discussion is the difference in perception regarding the flags.
To me and many others, a flag, any flag really, stands for a country, union, community, corporation, a political, social or economical group of people. It stands for whatever these people agree on at the moment, right now, for their social value, moral, politics, way of life, not for their past.

To you and some others, the flag of any of these groups seems to symbolise its history, its ancestry, its ideals and its military first of all.

So, if I were to burn a flag, I would criticise the current action of that group of people.
If you see a flag burning, you see it as an assault on history and ideals.

In the last few years, both North Korea and Pakistan have gotten their hand on nuclear weapons. I didn't hear much about American soldiers in Pyonyang or Islamabad....

Sure, in a few years time Saddam might have gotten them as well, but he is far from the only threat, really. So, what does he have that the others don't? Oil? Good strategic position for further wars in the Middle East?
:confused:

We cant go after every single country that develops nuclear capabilities, we already look like a nation of retards because we went into Iraq and then re elected the moron who sent us there imagine what we would look like to the rest of the world if we invaded Pakistan,Iran,North Korea and every other country that gets nuclear capabilities.

I already said I wasnt going to defend the war in Iraq as I dont support it, but I support our troops and there is a difference.

Again, I'm NOT American. I don't know the individual motives of soldiers, really, if they are naive enough to believe that they are fighting for ideals, good for them. Fact is, hardly any war ever was fought for any ideal, those were added afterwards by the winners in order to justify things at home.
I don't see the point in being grateful for that, no.

Then you are a very self absorbed person... or maybe you just lack insight. There are many things people do on a daily basis that make my life better. I didn't ask them to do it.. they just did. I am grateful to them for their effort. Whether it be someone who helped pushed clean air acts through the legislature,Hmmmm smell that air sweetening... or someone who saw me leave my wallet behind at a restaurant and runs after me to give it back. To say you can not be grateful because you didn't ask them to do this or that seems ludicruous to me. Maybe that is not what you were trying to say but it is how you are coming across.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/images/300/distress_old_man.jpg

this thread make me want to burn a flag

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/images/300/distress_old_man.jpg

this thread make me want to burn a flag

Your post makes me want to teach you proper english.

The United States is a brillant nation tacticly, there is a reason why the Americans are a superpower and it has nothing to do with luck. They have always made their choices thinking in the long term. Why are they in Iraq? for WMD? haha thats a bullshit story made up to get rid of a thorn that has been in there side since 91. oil? a minor part of it as they have to condense their oil stockpiles against the ever growing giant of China that is sucking up oil like no tomorrow and is the real reason behind the massive jump in oil prices.

The real reason why they are in Iraq is because of its closeness to Saudi Arabia and Syria and it presented what they thought to being the easiest target in the region. They know Saudi Arabia and Syria are the true major exporters of jihadists. With the close proximity of Iraq it allows the jihadists easy access which is exactly what the americans want. They want to jihadists to come to Iraq, that is the reason why they leave the borders unguarded for the most part. They want them to come fight, it is better to have the jihadists working their jihad trying to hurt the US military, then allowing them to sit in Saudi Arabia and Syria and take the fight to the US.

Basically, they took the fight to them. The story was bullshit, but you cant just go out and say, okay we are gonna make a thorn in the jihadists side in their homeland to keep them occupied on our professional military while we ramp up our civil protection which could take years knowing how massive and pounderous American bureacracy is. And even now, they are building up an Iraqi Army so you will have muslims killing muslims, muslims at war with other muslims. It is a brillant stragteic move that will pay off in the long run, because everyday the jihadists fight in Iraq, it is another day they are occupied with other things and another day america becomes more prepared on the homefront.

IMHO Iraq is just the delaying action of the Americans, They are going to flex their true muscles in the coming years, sooner or later they are going to turn on Saudi Arabia and destory it either politically or militarly. And they are gonna gut the wahabis from there and wipe those scum of my religion off this planet.




Anyways, flag burning.......it should be illegal because it is an offensive act, just like if somebody says kills all the blacks, jews, muslims ect ect...except its being stated against a whole country, also it is ment to incite which is totally different from protesting. Protesting is holding up signs and raising awareness to your opinion. incitement is ment to raise anger against and for you, you have no message to give other then anger and that your maybe a pyro.

Why is it legal to slander an entire country, but not alright to slander a small group?

Your post makes me want to teach you proper english.

You mean proper English, right? I take offense to your desecration of said word.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/images/300/distress_old_man.jpg

this thread make me want to burn a flag

Pls dude, dont correct me...look at wtf you wrote.

Anyways, flag burning.......it should be illegal because it is an offensive act, just like if somebody says kills all the blacks, jews, muslims ect ect...except its being stated against a whole country, also it is ment to incite which is totally different from protesting. Protesting is holding up signs and raising awareness to your opinion. incitement is ment to raise anger against and for you, you have no message to give other then anger and that your maybe a pyro.

Why is it legal to slander an entire country, but not alright to slander a small group?

What country are you from? The back of my pickup truck says "Kill Dem Blacks" and "GIT-R-DUN". I get high-fives for it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/images/300/distress_old_man.jpg

this thread make me want to burn a flag
No no no, its

"this thread make me want burn flag"

So, people do not posess the mental capabilities to distinguish between a peice of cloth and what that peice of cloth symbolizes. This is nothing new.

SCOTUS has put flag burning, when used to express something, under freedom of speech. Deal with it.

So I can post "pls", "dont", and "wtf", but leaving off an "s" is a mortal sin? OMG TAHT IS RILLY FUNY!11!!!

Why is it legal to slander an entire country, but not alright to slander a small group?
You need to brush up on what 'slander' means. Burning a flag is not slander.

Edit:

So I can post "pls", "dont", and "wtf", but leaving off an "s" is a mortal sin? OMG TAHT IS RILLY FUNY!11!!!
How about not derailing into a discussion about spelling? For me? Please? With sugar on top? :)

The United States is a brillant nation tacticly, there is a reason why the Americans are a superpower and it has nothing to do with luck. They have always made their choices thinking in the long term. Why are they in Iraq? for WMD? haha thats a bullshit story made up to get rid of a thorn that has been in there side since 91. oil? a minor part of it as they have to condense their oil stockpiles against the ever growing giant of China that is sucking up oil like no tomorrow and is the real reason behind the massive jump in oil prices.

The real reason why they are in Iraq is because of its closeness to Saudi Arabia and Syria and it presented what they thought to being the easiest target in the region. They know Saudi Arabia and Syria are the true major exporters of jihadists. With the close proximity of Iraq it allows the jihadists easy access which is exactly what the americans want. They want to jihadists to come to Iraq, that is the reason why they leave the borders unguarded for the most part. They want them to come fight, it is better to have the jihadists working their jihad trying to hurt the US military, then allowing them to sit in Saudi Arabia and Syria and take the fight to the US.

Basically, they took the fight to them. The story was bullshit, but you cant just go out and say, okay we are gonna make a thorn in the jihadists side in their homeland to keep them occupied on our professional military while we ramp up our civil protection which could take years knowing how massive and pounderous American bureacracy is. And even now, they are building up an Iraqi Army so you will have muslims killing muslims, muslims at war with other muslims. It is a brillant stragteic move that will pay off in the long run, because everyday the jihadists fight in Iraq, it is another day they are occupied with other things and another day america becomes more prepared on the homefront.

IMHO Iraq is just the delaying action of the Americans, They are going to flex their true muscles in the coming years, sooner or later they are going to turn on Saudi Arabia and destory it either politically or militarly. And they are gonna gut the wahabis from there and wipe those scum of my religion off this planet.




Anyways, flag burning.......it should be illegal because it is an offensive act, just like if somebody says kills all the blacks, jews, muslims ect ect...except its being stated against a whole country, also it is ment to incite which is totally different from protesting. Protesting is holding up signs and raising awareness to your opinion. incitement is ment to raise anger against and for you, you have no message to give other then anger and that your maybe a pyro.

Why is it legal to slander an entire country, but not alright to slander a small group?

I am American. An the reason were a domminant nation is partially because of luck World War 2 is what enhabled us to become a super power in the first place if that hadnt happened most likley we would still be isolationist.

Anyways, flag burning.......it should be illegal because it is an offensive act,
Well, I find prayer in school to be offensive to me and a lot of other people, but there isn't an ice cube's chance in hell that that will go anyway anytime soon. So I deal with it, just as you should deal with people who flag-burn.

It has to be legal because we have a right to protest in this country. Flag burning doesn't hurt anything except your feelings, so it's obviously an effect means of protest.


So I can burn bibles, koran, and books as a form of protest?

Sweet. See you in the headlines.

Then you are a very self absorbed person... or maybe you just lack insight. There are many things people do on a daily basis that make my life better. I didn't ask them to do it.. they just did. I am grateful to them for their effort. Whether it be someone who helped pushed clean air acts through the legislature,Hmmmm smell that air sweetening... or someone who saw me leave my wallet behind at a restaurant and runs after me to give it back. To say you can not be grateful because you didn't ask them to do this or that seems ludicruous to me. Maybe that is not what you were trying to say but it is how you are coming across.

Well, I happen to see a difference between somebody acting on his/her own initiative and somebody executing orders. I also see a difference between somebody giving me back my wallet without being asked by me and somebody killing another person without being asked by me but still claiming to do it in my name.

And I didn't see the argument "Don't burn the flag that the people in parliament pushed clean air legistlation for", nor the argument "Don't burn the flag all those friendly people helped strangers for", I was presented with the argument that it's wrong to burn the flag because the government at one point or another paid people to get killed for it.

You see, if people died for that flag, they died for what it stood for when they were killed.
When people burn a flag today, they don't look at history, they look at what's wrong today, here and now. And I, personally, think they have every right to do that.

Canada City']So I can burn bibles, koran, and books as a form of protest?

Sweet. See you in the headlines.

You should be able to burn anything you damn feel like that you own and if your not puting others at risk. If i payed 15 dollars for a bible and i feel like burnning it i damn will do it i may go to hell but i have the right to burn the damn bible.

Canada City']So I can burn bibles, koran, and books as a form of protest?

Sweet. See you in the headlines.
Of course you can, why on earth should you not?

Canada City']So I can burn bibles, koran, and books as a form of protest?

Sweet. See you in the headlines.

You can burn any book you like. It will make you look a bit uneducated, but that's your decision.

However, likening a political flag to a religious symbol gives me an uneasy feeling...

What about profiting off the sales of flags? What about the mass production of flags? What about someone who sweats on their flag shirt? If the flag is afforded special protection, how will the realities of American capitalism and human perspiration be reconciled?

What about profiting off the sales of flags? What about the mass production of flags? What about someone who sweats on their flag shirt? If the flag is afforded special protection, how will the realities of American capitalism and human perspiration be reconciled?
According to the United States Flag Code, it is not even proper to have a flag shirt. It is also not proper to autograph the flag, no matter how sure you are that you are God's gift to the White House...*cough*Bush*cough*

Isn't it ironic than that the same people who want to limit the first amendment would be dancing around in their flag shirts if they get their way?

Believe it or not there are people who dont like america for reasons of their own. Maybe they disagree with the government, maybe they hate the people, maybe they would move out of country if they had the money. If someone owns a flag and just so happens to light it on fire then it is their worry isnt it? Almost like buying a pack of pencils and snapping every one on your front yard because they looked at you funny... what? Are the pencil companies going to try to pass a law that you cant break pencils now? If you see someone burning a flag on TV then change the channel and if you see someone doing it in public then there is an equaly easy solution: dont look. Problem solved.

Let people express themselves how they see fit

Believe it or not there are people who dont like america for reasons of their own. Maybe they disagree with the government, maybe they hate the people, maybe they would move out of country if they had the money. If someone owns a flag and just so happens to light it on fire then it is their worry isnt it? Almost like buying a pack of pencils and snapping every one on your front yard because they looked at you funny... what? Are the pencil companies going to try to pass a law that you cant break pencils now? If you see someone burning a flag on TV then change the channel and if you see someone doing it in public then there is an equaly easy solution: dont look. Problem solved.

Let people express themselves how they see fit

agree.

1. It is an act of free speech which is protected under the first amendment.

2. It is a non violent form of protest and isnt comparable to the over sited "yelling fire in a theater".

3. It is a show of compromising the freedoms the flag represents to illegalize its desecration

I dont condone flag burning and i have never done it, but, for gods sake are really willing to sacrifice your civil liberties for the sake of a piece of cloth?

my question to you: where do we draw the line on free speech.
THe supreme court must take each 'free speech' case independently of another, as they make decisions on a case by case basis (and therefore, flag burning is not illegal in the constitution). There was a 'flag protection act of 1989' brought up by Bush Sr., not sure if it ever took effect, and if it did, if it is still in effect.

Constitutionally, theres nothing banning the act of flag burning.
Legally, if there isnt a law against it, i would be in support of such a law making flag burning illegal
Personally, i think 1 of 3 things should happen:
1. flag burners are lined up and shot
2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there
3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.


flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well. They burn the same symbol that covers the graves of soldiers who died for these assholes to have the right to protest, they insult every living patriotic american, and denegrate the greatness of this country. Honestly, send them to Pakistan or Syria or Saudi Arabia and let them burn a Pakistani flag, or a Syrian flag, or a Saudi Ararbian flag... they would be dead before the flag is completely burned. Protesting is fine, its a civil liberty that we have, but crossing the line into sheer and utter disrespect, is unnecessary and disgusting.


WHAT DO YOU THINK... I need to be able to write a sort of essay on this tomorrow in class arguing the different viewpoints.. and i want to hear everyone elses.

Question: The line is drawn when free speech is used to attack another person or hurt another person. No longer is it speech at that point, but a personal attack or speech meant to incite hate. There is a clear line. Freedom of thought, not freedom to hurt.

Constitutionally, theres nothing banning the act of flag burning.

True. In fact if you were a real patriot, you'd bother to learn our founding father's opinion on the ability to protest instead of being a nationalistic fool claiming to pass as a patriot. They, such as Samuel Adams went so far as to destroy private property and they even gathered/assembled and made plans to enact on terrorist acts all in the name of CIVIL LIBERTIES they held sacred. They were a very fun bunch of rascles and others enlightened men. Its unfortunate you seem to have not taken the time to learn of them or the Republic you inherited with the blood of men from the battle of Bunker Hill, to Saratoga, to Afganistan.

Legally, if there isnt a law against it, i would be in support of such a law making flag burning illegal

Yes. You WOULD like to take another chip and bite to deteriorate our freedoms wouldn't you? I would NEVER burn the flag. There are better ways to protest it. Why the hell should we however turn into Mexico? You can't burn the flag, own a gun, and you have a state religion there. What good has that ever done for Mexico? It has turned its government into a rotten cesspool of corruption which values no liberties. Go live there for a month or two.

Personally, i think 1 of 3 things should happen:
1. flag burners are lined up and shot
2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there
3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.

Second, you believe the flag represents everything about America. I personally don't and I consider myself a patriot in the same model as the Founding Fathers because I try to learn from their opinions. What I consider the flag to be is this: The symbol of the American Republic of the people. Which is different than what you view it. When I believe soldiers take the flag into battle such as those of the Civil war. I believed they carried the symbol of the American Republic and Union. As such, I also believe it to be the symbol of our government.

Because of that distinction, I can see how some people view it as only the symbol of the government. They migh thave no respect for the government like I do. (Current handling, bloated bureacracy, political BS'ing by both parties, and etc) But I do not view the flag as the same way you do (representing American people), nor do I view it as OTHERS do (The government).

For me it is the symbol of our Republic as it stands now which I am still comfortable with. IF the government ever became a dictatorship as Rome did. If the government ever became a fascist government like Germany did. IF it violated our most sacred tenents of a Republic in any way that was truely unexcusable, THEN and only then would I go out and burn my flag in protest to what was done.

Thus, it is a civil liberty. One that shouldn't be banned. In fact, you need to get your ass in focused with what is really a big problem. Here you are wasting your time *****ing about something you can understand because demanding our politicians cut the crap and fix the debt, repair our civil liberties that were infringed upon by the "Patriot" Act, and etc.

This whole issue is a damned smokescreen and you and every other nationalistic American who is trying to pose as a patriot fell for. Instead of demanding the FDA be disbanded for infringing on the Constitutional civil liberty of health for its gross corruption, your here worried about a few idiots trying to burn their personal property because thats as FAR as you go with "Patriotism". The American flag. They are disrespectful turds? So what? Demand our politicans restore our rights, reform, and deal with real pressing issues.

Then you might become a real patriot. However even then I recommend you learn more of the Revolutionary War. Our founding fathers might teach you what it is to be a real American.

This just proves one thing I've been saying for a long time: If Osama Bin Ladin had been born in the US he would be leading the Republican party right now, and if Bush had been born in Saudi Arabia he would be leading the Wahabi Jihadist right now.

Newsflash: it's only a flag.

If you are really that offended about flag burning maybe you should go live in a third world country to find out what is actually important in life.

If I was American (god forbid) I would be burning the flag every god-dammed day of my life. What good has america (deliberate non-use of capital letter here - does america really deserve a capital letter? I don't think so) done for the world? (and starting a war doesn't count - nor does "ending" a war [i.e. Nagasaki, Iraq etc], because believe it or not, whatever your jumped up beleifs may be, WAR IS NOT GOOD!! And there is more polution from the US than from just about any other country in the world, and that's saying something because Britain is pretty bad too - in fact, I'm just going to go and burn the british flag - though not the Welsh, Irish or Scottish, what have they done? nothing right. Yes, so in conclusion, Flag Burning Is Perfectly OK Shouldn't be illeagal and those that think it should be illeagal should be "lined up and shot," "sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there" after american troops have torn through it like there was no tommorrow, and for many of them there wasn't, or "be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered" without pain killers, sterile needles or in fact any hygiene on the part of the tatooist at all oh yeah, then they should be stripped naked and forced into humility for the rest of their lives....

You see, not being able to burn the falg of the country you are living in should be illeagal, because the ability to burn the flag is freedom, and after all, isn't that what america is supposed to stand for? Freedom?

The whole thing is just silly at this point. Burning the flag isn't even really a political statement anymore- whatever point you are trying to prove is lost in the medium you're expressing it through. The whole thing is just mindnumbingly inconsequential.