NationStates Jolt Archive

Today i spent a class period watching a movie that has to do with the Texas v. Johnson case of 1989. For those of you who dont know... this is a case where Johnson burned and spit on an American Flag on the steps of the Capitol Building. He was arrested and charged with desecration and disorderly conduct. The case went all the way to the supreme court, at which point he won the case based on free speech.

my question to you: where do we draw the line on free speech.
THe supreme court must take each 'free speech' case independently of another, as they make decisions on a case by case basis (and therefore, flag burning is not illegal in the constitution). There was a 'flag protection act of 1989' brought up by Bush Sr., not sure if it ever took effect, and if it did, if it is still in effect.

Constitutionally, theres nothing banning the act of flag burning.
Legally, if there isnt a law against it, i would be in support of such a law making flag burning illegal
Personally, i think 1 of 3 things should happen:
1. flag burners are lined up and shot
2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there
3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.


flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well. They burn the same symbol that covers the graves of soldiers who died for these assholes to have the right to protest, they insult every living patriotic american, and denegrate the greatness of this country. Honestly, send them to Pakistan or Syria or Saudi Arabia and let them burn a Pakistani flag, or a Syrian flag, or a Saudi Ararbian flag... they would be dead before the flag is completely burned. Protesting is fine, its a civil liberty that we have, but crossing the line into sheer and utter disrespect, is unnecessary and disgusting.


WHAT DO YOU THINK... I need to be able to write a sort of essay on this tomorrow in class arguing the different viewpoints.. and i want to hear everyone elses.

I view flag-burners with the same disgust as I view KKK members who burn the cross. In my view, flag-burners should be deported to Zimbabwe and have their citizenships revoked and see how well they like it there.

KKK members should just be shot, Judge Dredd-style.

Flag burning should absolutely be legal. Just because you are patriotic doesn't mean your opinion matters at all in regards to others' right to freedom of speech. Burning a flag is a form of expression. Speaking or writing against the United States is a form of expression. Patriotic songs are a form of expression. In order to preserve the freedoms that you say the flag stands for, burning it must be legal. You may think flag-burners are stupid, but they are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours.

[snip]

Actually, I think flag burning actually fits under "right to protest", and I do not think it should be made illegal. I've never burned a flag, but it does seem like a right which should be respected.

I view flag-burners with the same disgust as I view KKK members who burn the cross. In my view, flag-burners should be deported to Zimbabwe and have their citizenships revoked and see how well they like it there.

KKK members should just be shot, Judge Dredd-style.

No, Zimbabwe is fine compared to Somalia. Send them there! See how they like it there where they can burn a flag and then get randomly shot in some clan fight.

Honestly, I agree with you all the way. Flag burners should be punished considerably for such as disgusting act.

In order to preserve the freedoms that you say the flag stands for, burning it must be legal.
Why? .... Because I've never understood this argument.

Flag burning should absolutely be legal. Just because you are patriotic doesn't mean your opinion matters at all in regards to others' right to freedom of speech. Burning a flag is a form of expression. Speaking or writing against the United States is a form of expression. Patriotic songs are a form of expression. In order to preserve the freedoms that you say the flag stands for, burning it must be legal. You may think flag-burners are stupid, but they are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours.


i think you can have an opinion and show it without burning a flag.. there are many protests that happen where flags arent burned... its simple.. the flag is burned in contempt and for the sake of controversy and possibly violence

I have no problem with flag burners, just as I don't have a problem with people you wish to hang the flag of their country with pride.

Firstly, burning the flag is the proper way to dispose of it, therefore, it would be contradictory to make all flag burning illegal (It is more respectful to burn the flag than let it rot in a dump)

secondly, you made the poll biased. You make it sound like only people who say flag burning should be illegal find it offensive. I for one don't agree with the act, but still think it falls under free speech

Hmm... Let's think about this.

We dislike flag-burners because the are desecrating a symbol of the nation that protects their right to burn the flag and so to teach them a lesson we should no longer protect their rights...

Yeah it seems like a messy issue to me.

Actually, I think flag burning actually fits under "right to protest", and I do not think it should be made illegal. I've never burned a flag, but it does seem like a right which should be respected.


woa woa woa.... the 'right to protest' isnt a right... its a spinoff if freedom of speech, assembly, and press... so burning a flag is not a political or social 'right', it is an inflammatory expression that can do no good for a cause.. only lead to violence

Nowt wrong with flag burning. If a democratic country that endorses free speech arrests a person for burning a flag, are they democratic? No.

Personally, i think 1 of 3 things should happen:
1. flag burners are lined up and shot
2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there
3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.

Wrong. We cannot punish someone for disagreeing with you.

Free speech isn't really free if you only let people do it when you like the message they're sending out.

I think people attach far too much importance than is healthy to material things like this.

Some holy books get destroyed, people riot. Some flags get burned, people demand the perpetrators are deported.

Why? It is only an object. A certain minimum of respect must be paid to cultural sensitivities, but really it's the people getting worked up over it who seem foolish to me.

woa woa woa.... the 'right to protest' isnt a right... its a spinoff if freedom of speech, assembly, and press... so burning a flag is not a political or social 'right', it is an inflammatory expression that can do no good for a cause.. only lead to violence
I don't understand why you must hate people who choose to express their personal beliefs in this way. Even if you would not burn the flag, surely you can respect others' beliefs enough to allow them to do so?

Nowt wrong with flag burning. If a democratic country that endorses free speech arrests a person for burning a flag, are they democratic? No.
That is complete bullshit. A democratic country can easily pass a law banning flag burning. People vote to pass the law, therefore it is democratic.

Besides, calling "setting something on fire" the same as "speech" is inane.

Honestly, I agree with you all the way. Flag burners should be punished considerably for such as disgusting act.

Why?

It's their property isn't it? Surely they can do what they want with their property (provided it doesn't harm, or potentially harm, anyone else)?

"Flag burning: freedom of speech????"

Freedom of speech is perhaps the most crutial of all freedoms, ranking perhaps a very close second to the right to keep and bear arms. Without the right to own weapons, the general public stands helpless before both criminals and any repressive government. Without freedom of speech, the general public stands helpless before the propaganda often dished out by special interests and venal governments.

The US flag means a great deal to me. It represents the people and the freedoms they exercise under the Constitution, including the freedom of speech. Yet, in all good conscience, I cannot but view burning the flag as an exercise of a citizen's right to free expression.

I might beat the everloving crap out of him if I totally lose it while he does so, but I will defend his right to burn it.

one thing *I've* never understood about america (related to flag)

Whats with the swearing of allegience in school?! 'Allegience' to a cause is a *CHOICE* by making it mandatory you undermine the very value of making that CHOICE! Granted its highly unlikely that I shall ever swear allegience to anything, or anyone. But for those who make that choice and the personal sacrifice that goes with it surely the mandatory swearing by people, or children, who merely say the words without the accompanying commitment is devalueing their own commitment and sacrifice.

Also can anyone else say indoctrination?

Oh and its a piece of cloth, it doesn't MEAN *anything* more then what you think it means, thus why should if matter if someone chooses to burn it?

Restricting flag burning is Nationalism gone too far.

Nowt wrong with flag burning. If a democratic country that endorses free speech arrests a person for burning a flag, are they democratic? No.



Wrong. We cannot punish someone for disagreeing with you.



note the: PERSONALLY in BOLD.. no kidding we cant prosecute ppl cus i want them to be prosecuted.... First of all were a democratic republic ... were not libertarian, socialist, or communist... and there is a line that needs to be drawn b/w free speech and disrespect.


for example... would it be ok if someone walked into the workplace with swastikas all over them, or with the kkk outfit on.... no it wouldnt, ... but you say its freedom of speech... but the line is drawn not allowing this to happen... just like in this case it should be.

I don't know what's all the fuss about burning the flag. Like it's an attack of the integrity of the nation. Flag burning is just a really loud way to state your disagreement with the goverment. I would ban burning the flag if the goverment and the country would be perfect and utopical but since they are far from that I think you can express your hatred against the goverment anytime you want. It's a friggin piece of cloth and think about it this way. It's their flag, therefore their property so they can do with it anything they want.

Now if the goverment would give everyone a free flag to hang out and you'd burn it, you could be accused of destroying goverment property. But I see no problem with the whole burning thing. Just don't use gasoline. There's too little of it on earth.

one thing *I've* never understood about america (related to flag)

Whats with the swearing of allegience in school?! 'Allegience' to a cause is a *CHOICE* by making it mandatory you undermine the very value of making that CHOICE! Granted its highly unlikely that I shall ever swear allegience to anything, or anyone. But for those who make that choice and the personal sacrifice that goes with it surely the mandatory swearing by people, or children, who merely say the words without the accompanying commitment is devalueing their own commitment and sacrifice.

Also can anyone else say indoctrination?

Oh and its a piece of cloth, it doesn't MEAN *anything* more then what you think it means, thus why should if matter if someone chooses to burn it?
Um.. that's why saying the Pledge is NOT mandatory. :rolleyes:

Why? .... Because I've never understood this argument.
It does seem contradictory, but the easiest way to look at it is like this.

the US flag represents the right to your own opinion and the right to free speech. Lets say that my opinion is that I should be able to burn a flag, and I choose to do so. The government says no, and punishes me. Suddenly, I don't have the right to free speech. the flag can no longer represent freedom of speech because we as a society don't have it.

This may suprise some of you. I say it is freedom of speech/freedom to prove you are an asshole. While you're doing that I'd paint stars and stripes all over your house and burn it too.

o
[snip]
Whats with the swearing of allegience in school?! 'Allegience' to a cause is a *CHOICE* by making it mandatory you undermine the very value of making that CHOICE! Granted its highly unlikely that I shall ever swear allegience to anything, or anyone. But for those who make that choice and the personal sacrifice that goes with it surely the mandatory swearing by people, or children, who merely say the words without the accompanying commitment is devalueing their own commitment and sacrifice.
[snip]

That's why I plan never to utter those words again. I do not believe in them, and I believe it is ridiculous and entirely hypocritical to socially pressure someone to recite this brainwashing crap.

And BTW... luv ya so much for pointing this out! :fluffle:

I think that the Americans need to recognise that a great many people in the world hate them. [I'm not saying I do, just playing devil's advocate] This may be partly due to the fact that they want to kill anyone who insults their country by invoking the rights of freedom of expresion for which they claim to stand. To me, a British person, flag burning is merely a form of protest, but legitimate nonetheless. If someone burned the Union Jack or the Soltaire I would take offence but respect their right to hate my country, just as we must respect all right to protest if we are to expect freedom ourselves.

one thing *I've* never understood about america (related to flag)

Whats with the swearing of allegience in school?! 'Allegience' to a cause is a *CHOICE* by making it mandatory you undermine the very value of making that CHOICE! Granted its highly unlikely that I shall ever swear allegience to anything, or anyone. But for those who make that choice and the personal sacrifice that goes with it surely the mandatory swearing by people, or children, who merely say the words without the accompanying commitment is devalueing their own commitment and sacrifice.

Also can anyone else say indoctrination?

Oh and its a piece of cloth, it doesn't MEAN *anything* more then what you think it means, thus why should if matter if someone chooses to burn it?
It's not the cloth that matters, my ingenuous friend. It's the fact that the flag represents all that many of us value more than life itself: the right to be free. Can you say "symbolism is powerful stuff" boys and girls? :)

That is complete bullshit. A democratic country can easily pass a law banning flag burning. People vote to pass the law, therefore it is democratic.

Besides, calling "setting something on fire" the same as "speech" is inane.

Yes. Let's pass a law against burning certain objects that are absolutely meaningless!

Next, let's pass a law against riding bicycles in your own home! Then, we'll pass a law that prevents you from growing certain trees on your own private property!

BRILLIANT!!

If your precious 'founding fathers' could hear you people now, they'd probably beat you to death with flag poles. Killing people for burning a flag? People such as yourselves have no idea what ideals your own country stands for. If anyone should be deported, it's you.

What is the problem with that? It's a symbolic act, hurting nobody.
They burn a coloured piece of cloth to express their opinion. What on earth is wrong with that?

for example... would it be ok if someone walked into the workplace with swastikas all over them, or with the kkk outfit on.... no it wouldnt, ... but you say its freedom of speech... but the line is drawn not allowing this to happen... just like in this case it should be.

If someone did that, I would heavily object, and hate them for it, but I wouldn't restrict their right to do it. It's their view, however dumb it may be.

As for flag burning, there is no reason to stop it.
It's the proper form of disposal.

Also, if we ban that, how far will you go? Prosecute people who don't say the pledge? Same logic, you're disrespecting it. If someone owns a flag, it's their property to do what they wish with. To ban them from burning is a clear infringement on the basic rights to property.

This may suprise some of you. I say it is freedom of speech/freedom to prove you are an asshole. While you're doing that I'd paint stars and stripes all over your house and burn it too.
Freedom of speech does not extend to damaging others people’s property

If your precious 'founding fathers' could hear you people now, they'd probably beat you to death with flag poles. Killing people for burning a flag? People such as yourselves have no idea what ideals your own country stands for. If anyone should be deported, it's you.

AGREED. Thank YOU.

*hands you a box of cookies*

flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well. They burn the same symbol that covers the graves of soldiers who died for these assholes to have the right to protest, they insult every living patriotic american, and denegrate the greatness of this country.
In my experience, it is those who cling most strongly to the symbols, the physical manifestations, of their religion or nation, that understand least what they are about. Overt patriotism all too often masks ignorance. I would say that if a person places such high value on the symbol of their country (or religion), they are, excuse the religious terminology, worshipping a false idol.

Its okay to burn the American Flag!! Corruption rocks!!! Keep America Evil is what I say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mp5:

Garh! I hate when people say things like "Its a sign of freedom and our country and blah blah blah". Not everyone agrees with YOUR views or YOUR ideas of patriotism. Flag-burning is in no way violent. On the contrary, its quite peaceful; nobody is getting hurt. Jailing people for expressing their opinion is really rather wrong, especially in a country where you say the flag stands for freedom and liberty and all that jazz.

I don't understand why you must hate people who choose to express their personal beliefs in this way. Even if you would not burn the flag, surely you can respect others' beliefs enough to allow them to do so?

if it was my personal belief that i want everyone with black hair murdered by next sunday, would you protect and respect my personal beliefs...

you see, personal beliefs dont make an action right or wrong, moral or immoral, its the national and state laws and doctrines that decide whats right or not.

If your precious 'founding fathers' could hear you people now, they'd probably beat you to death with flag poles. Killing people for burning a flag? People such as yourselves have no idea what ideals your own country stands for. If anyone should be deported, it's you.
True dat.

Garh! I hate when people say things like "Its a sign of freedom and our country and blah blah blah". Not everyone agrees with YOUR views or YOUR ideas of patriotism. Flag-burning is in no way violent. On the contrary, its quite peaceful; nobody is getting hurt. Jailing people for expressing their opinion is really rather wrong, especially in a country where you say the flag stands for freedom and liberty and all that jazz.

Exactly.

if it was my personal belief that i want everyone with black hair murdered by next sunday, would you protect and respect my personal beliefs...
[snip]

Yes, to the death. You have the right to believe that even if I don't agree.

Garh! I hate when people say things like "Its a sign of freedom and our country and blah blah blah". Not everyone agrees with YOUR views or YOUR ideas of patriotism. Flag-burning is in no way violent. On the contrary, its quite peaceful; nobody is getting hurt. Jailing people for expressing their opinion is really rather wrong, especially in a country where you say the flag stands for freedom and liberty and all that jazz.


O contrair! the action of flag burning is not violence... but it promotes violence.... you know somebody (like me) who feels that burning the flag is wrong will see you and try to beat the shit out of you... so it promotes violence.. which is what the supreme court decides and then can resolve the conflict.

if it was my personal belief that i want everyone with black hair murdered by next sunday, would you protect and respect my personal beliefs...

you see, personal beliefs dont make an action right or wrong, moral or immoral, its the national and state laws and doctrines that decide whats right or not.

I would allow you to have those beliefs. If you acted on them however, be aware that I would be the first black-haired person waiting with a shotgun.

It has to be legal because we have a right to protest in this country. Flag burning doesn't hurt anything except your feelings, so it's obviously an effect means of protest.

Try your hardest to look at this from an unbiased perspective. You claim that the American flag represents the rights and freedoms of the country. That inherently includes the right to protest, which is of course an ESSENTIAL liberty. Without the unrestricted right to protest, our civil liberties would surely whither away.

People who burn the flag are making a statement. You have the right to make a statement however you want as well. If you choose to write or speak about your political views, the law allows you to do so. If you choose to protest by marching or shooting targets with the face of a dictator attached, you may. If you choose to burn the flag of a nation as a symbol of dissent, you may. You people who say flag burners should be deported are ignorant of the fact that your opinions are not infallible. It's easy to sit back on the presumption that we are free and the best country in the world, but not everyone feels this way! Just because you don't agree with dissenters does not give you the right to stifle their freedom. It is a direct contradiction to illegalize freedoms of expression, in the defense of a flag, which embodies that freedom. If citizens are going to have the right to fly the American flag, they must also have the right to desecrate it.

The flag is nothing more than a symbol. It is not an embodiment of your rights. It is not the president and it is not you. It is a symbol which represents this country's geography, its government, its domestic policy and its foreign policy. Burning this symbol is an extremely effective means of showing disagreement with one or more areas of this representation.

Next, let's pass a law against riding bicycles in your own home! Then, we'll pass a law that prevents you from growing certain trees on your own private property!

BRILLIANT!!
There are already similar laws on the books all over the country. Such is your "democracy". :rolleyes:

That's the exact reason our Founding Fathers started a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC...NOT A DEMOCRACY. Democracy is mob rule.

To me, burning the flag is a disgusting display. I understand its protected by the very land it represents. I'll never burn an American flag and I'm not sure how I'd react if I were to witness it in person.

I find it funny though the glee some in here feel about being allowed to burn a flag. These same people are likely horrified by a cross burning.

But whats the difference?

You can say whatever you want. Dont burn a cross or the American Flag near me though.

O contrair! the action of flag burning is not violence... but it promotes violence.... you know somebody (like me) who feels that burning the flag is wrong will see you and try to beat the shit out of you... so it promotes violence.. which is what the supreme court decides and then can resolve the conflict.

That is the most inane "argument" I've read on this board today: "Things you do might not sit right with me, therefore they promote my decision to commit a crime, and you should be punished."

Also, it is spelled "au contraire".

O contrair! the action of flag burning is not violence... but it promotes violence.... you know somebody (like me) who feels that burning the flag is wrong will see you and try to beat the shit out of you... so it promotes violence.. which is what the supreme court decides and then can resolve the conflict.

But that can be said about any group trying to express their view which you might disagree with.

As a responsible and mature citizen of a democracy that values civil liberties and the rule of law, your not supposed to turn ninja vigilante because you feel like it.

flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well.

What the hell you talking about man! If America is so 'free', then it is your right and freedom to burn the flag - to protest - to stand up against what you think is wrong.

Johnstone was protesting against the Reagan administration. A administration that was full of right-wing, gun-carrying nuts. What is wrong against protesting against something that is wrong.

Im so sick and tired of Patriotic fools. Your country is not good. Your government lies to you. You are not Free. You are in chains.

The American flag stands for Greed, Hate, War and Lies. The ideas behind America when it was founded, REAL Freedom, REAL Liberty have been twisted and forgotton. You should not try to protect a flag that stands for what a real America should be standing against.

SO BURN THE FLAG MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS! BURN IT WITH PRIDE!

"Flag burning: freedom of speech????"

Freedom of speech is perhaps the most crutial of all freedoms, ranking perhaps a very close second to the right to keep and bear arms. Without the right to own weapons, the general public stands helpless before both criminals and any repressive government. Without freedom of speech, the general public stands helpless before the propaganda often dished out by special interests and venal governments.

The US flag means a great deal to me. It represents the people and the freedoms they exercise under the Constitution, including the freedom of speech. Yet, in all good conscience, I cannot but view burning the flag as an exercise of a citizen's right to free expression.

I might beat the everloving crap out of him if I totally lose it while he does so, but I will defend his right to burn it.

"While I may not agree with what you are burning, I will defend to the death your right to burn it". :p

If someone did that, I would heavily object, and hate them for it, but I wouldn't restrict their right to do it. It's their view, however dumb it may be.

As for flag burning, there is no reason to stop it.
It's the proper form of disposal.

Also, if we ban that, how far will you go? Prosecute people who don't say the pledge? Same logic, you're disrespecting it. If someone owns a flag, it's their property to do what they wish with. To ban them from burning is a clear infringement on the basic rights to property.


first of all, the pledge is a completey different topic... no one is forced to say it (i actually dont say it all the time and when i do i leave out 'under god' b/c i dont believe in god) and if they are.. there should be concerned parents complaining and doing something about it.

2nd whats that 'proper form of disposal' youre talking about, its garbage

3rd, similar to money (which is federally illegal to destroy), the flag should not be burned in public protests (i mean, if your in your basement smoking pot with your friends while listing to Bob dillan... go for it)

O contrair! the action of flag burning is not violence... but it promotes violence.... you know somebody (like me) who feels that burning the flag is wrong will see you and try to beat the shit out of you... so it promotes violence.. which is what the supreme court decides and then can resolve the conflict.

No way. If you decide to become violent because somebody else expressing their political belief, that's your desicion and your responsibilty.
You might as well say that George Bush promoted violence, because everytime I see him I would like to beat him up... same difference. Yet beating him up would land me in jail for sure. Though it might be worth it, just to see the fan-mail

The US is such a terrible place that we need to burn the flag, huh?

Show me another country that people are flocking to in droves. I dont see anyone pciking up and running to anywhere else like they do here.
And neither do you.

So-burning the flag is protected, but an open flame that large in public, as well as littering and breach of peace is not. Leave the flag burning legal, but make the punishment for the others worse.

There are already similar laws on the books all over the country. Such is your "democracy". :rolleyes:

That's the exact reason our Founding Fathers started a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC...NOT A DEMOCRACY. Democracy is mob rule.

My point exactly. If you've read any of my posts on the matter, you'll see that I'm strongly against such Democracy. I'm for *limited* Democracy, but not like this. Not the kind where you can pass shit laws that restrict personal freedoms, making it worse for everyone.

O contrair! the action of flag burning is not violence... but it promotes violence.... you know somebody (like me) who feels that burning the flag is wrong will see you and try to beat the shit out of you... so it promotes violence.. which is what the supreme court decides and then can resolve the conflict.

Hurrah for vigilantism

if it was my personal belief that i want everyone with black hair murdered by next sunday, would you protect and respect my personal beliefs...

Not really, because your personal beliefs affect other people, whereas my flag burning really doesn't affect you or anyone else.

Sorta like that law where if you don't have you're seatbelt buckled, you get arrested. This is just ridiculous; how does my seatbelt affect you or anyone else? It doesn't, which is why I find this law to be silly. The government shouldn't make laws affect people's personal well being.

Sorry, that was quite off subject.

What the hell you talking about man! If America is so 'free', then it is your right and freedom to burn the flag - to protest - to stand up against what you think is wrong.

Johnstone was protesting against the Reagan administration. A administration that was full of right-wing, gun-carrying nuts. What is wrong against protesting against something that is wrong.

Im so sick and tired of Patriotic fools. Your country is not good. Your government lies to you. You are not Free. You are in chains.

The American flag stands for Greed, Hate, War and Lies. The ideas behind America when it was founded, REAL Freedom, REAL Liberty have been twisted and forgotton. You should not try to protect a flag that stands for what a real America should be standing against.

SO BURN THE FLAG MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS! BURN IT WITH PRIDE!

*searches house for flags to burn...

No way. If you decide to become violent because somebody else expressing their political belief, that's your desicion and your responsibilty.
Then why do we have laws against inciting riots?

Maybe that's the answer. Everytime someone burns a flag, we riot. Then their actions would be illegal as they'd be "inciting a riot".

if it was my personal belief that i want everyone with black hair murdered by next sunday, would you protect and respect my personal beliefs...


No, because your personal belief in this case victimizes innocent people. Flag burning doesn't.

What the hell you talking about man! If America is so 'free', then it is your right and freedom to burn the flag - to protest - to stand up against what you think is wrong.

Johnstone was protesting against the Reagan administration. A administration that was full of right-wing, gun-carrying nuts. What is wrong against protesting against something that is wrong.

Im so sick and tired of Patriotic fools. Your country is not good. Your government lies to you. You are not Free. You are in chains.

The American flag stands for Greed, Hate, War and Lies. The ideas behind America when it was founded, REAL Freedom, REAL Liberty have been twisted and forgotton. You should not try to protect a flag that stands for what a real America should be standing against.

SO BURN THE FLAG MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS! BURN IT WITH PRIDE!


Hey man-get out there and fire up your crosses too!! Its all good now man!!

Its funny-you never see an Amercian burning a flag of another country. Is that ok too?

first of all, the pledge is a completey different topic... no one is forced to say it (i actually dont say it all the time and when i do i leave out 'under god' b/c i dont believe in god) and if they are.. there should be concerned parents complaining and doing something about it.
There have been complaints. Remember all that crap in California?

2nd whats that 'proper form of disposal' youre talking about, its garbage
You obviously don't know your flag etiquite. You don't throw away an old/damaged American flag: You burn it.

3rd, similar to money (which is federally illegal to destroy), the flag should not be burned in public protests (i mean, if your in your basement smoking pot with your friends while listing to Bob dillan... go for it)
Money is federally illegal to destroy for COMPLETELY different reasons. The Federal Treasury needs to know how much money is in circulation for inflation control purposes. There is no such problem with flag burning.

*searches house for flags to burn...
You can borrow mine from the 4th of July 3 or 4 years ago! :p (It's in my room on the floor under my bed gathering dust & dust bunnies!)

What the hell you talking about man! If America is so 'free', then it is your right and freedom to burn the flag - to protest - to stand up against what you think is wrong.

Johnstone was protesting against the Reagan administration. A administration that was full of right-wing, gun-carrying nuts. What is wrong against protesting against something that is wrong.

Im so sick and tired of Patriotic fools. Your country is not good. Your government lies to you. You are not Free. You are in chains.

The American flag stands for Greed, Hate, War and Lies. The ideas behind America when it was founded, REAL Freedom, REAL Liberty have been twisted and forgotton. You should not try to protect a flag that stands for what a real America should be standing against.

SO BURN THE FLAG MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS! BURN IT WITH PRIDE!

Damn straight! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Hey man-get out there and fire up your crosses too!! Its all good now man!!
[snip]

I don't own a cross... intentionally.

The US is such a terrible place that we need to burn the flag, huh?

Show me another country that people are flocking to in droves. I dont see anyone pciking up and running to anywhere else like they do here.
And neither do you.

So-burning the flag is protected, but an open flame that large in public, as well as littering and breach of peace is not. Leave the flag burning legal, but make the punishment for the others worse.

1: No, but there are a lot of bullshit laws that should be repealed, but won't, because of the assholes that are in control.

2: True, though I'm sure other countries have just as high of a percentage of immigrants.

3: Erm... Having a large open flame in public can hurt somebody (I'm sure if you burned a huge flag in public, you'd get arrested for having a fire hazard). Littering is pollution. You pollute, and you get fined.

Just about sums it up for me:

"America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours." You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free."
President Andrew Sheppard -- The American President

Hmm... Let's think about this.

We dislike flag-burners because the are desecrating a symbol of the nation that protects their right to burn the flag and so to teach them a lesson we should no longer protect their rights...

Yeah it seems like a messy issue to me.

It doesn't have to be messy.

People die protecting the flag and free speech.

The people who burn the flag are utilizing that free speech that has been provided for them.

People say it is an insult to those people that died!

Well...add a little bit of logic:

If these people who burn the flag are indeed doing it to protest their right to burn flags, then they are indeed insulting people who died to protect their right to free speech.

HOWEVER....if someone died defending the right to free speech, AND they believed in what they were doing, do you really think they would be insulted by the very right they died to protect?

Not really, because your personal beliefs affect other people, whereas my flag burning really doesn't affect you or anyone else.

Sorta like that law where if you don't have you're seatbelt buckled, you get arrested. This is just ridiculous; how does my seatbelt affect you or anyone else? It doesn't, which is why I find this law to be silly. The government shouldn't make laws affect people's personal well being.

Sorry, that was quite off subject.


ARRESTED for not buckling up? Thats pretty harsh. And its depriving me of my right to see certain people exit their car through the windshield.

It has to be legal because we have a right to protest in this country. Flag burning doesn't hurt anything except your feelings, so it's obviously an effect means of protest.

Try your hardest to look at this from an unbiased perspective. You claim that the American flag represents the rights and freedoms of the country. That inherently includes the right to protest, which is of course an ESSENTIAL liberty. Without the unrestricted right to protest, our civil liberties would surely whither away.

People who burn the flag are making a statement. You have the right to make a statement however you want as well. If you choose to write or speak about your political views, the law allows you to do so. If you choose to protest by marching or shooting targets with the face of a dictator attached, you may. If you choose to burn the flag of a nation as a symbol of dissent, you may. You people who say flag burners should be deported are ignorant of the fact that your opinions are not infallible. It's easy to sit back on the presumption that we are free and the best country in the world, but not everyone feels this way! Just because you don't agree with dissenters does not give you the right to stifle their freedom. It is a direct contradiction to illegalize freedoms of expression, in the defense of a flag, which embodies that freedom. If citizens are going to have the right to fly the American flag, they must also have the right to desecrate it.

The flag is nothing more than a symbol. It is not an embodiment of your rights. It is not the president and it is not you. It is a symbol which represents this country's geography, its government, its domestic policy and its foreign policy. Burning this symbol is an extremely effective means of showing disagreement with one or more areas of this representation.


I'd like an anti-flag burner to react to this please. I just posted, but it got lost because so many people are spamming with short, meaningless posts.

for example... would it be ok if someone walked into the workplace with swastikas all over them, or with the kkk outfit on.... no it wouldnt, ... but you say its freedom of speech... but the line is drawn not allowing this to happen... just like in this case it should be.

perhaps not the workplace, as that is a private business, and they have the right to enforce a dress code. However, they legally CAN walk down the street with swastikas all over their body. I hate the stars and bars flag and what it represents. I see cars driving around with it on, even way up here in the north. Do I like it? no. Do I have the right to stop them? no. Do I shake it off and deal with it? yes.


if it was my personal belief that i want everyone with black hair murdered by next sunday, would you protect and respect my personal beliefs...

you can believe that all you want. You cannot, however, act on that belief. You are not permitted to deny any other person their rights, property, or life.

flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well. They burn the same symbol that covers the graves of soldiers who died for these assholes to have the right to protest
Ironically, the flag stands for free speech in even its ugly forms, which includes the right to burn that very flag.

O contrair! the action of flag burning is not violence... but it promotes violence.... you know somebody (like me) who feels that burning the flag is wrong will see you and try to beat the shit out of you... so it promotes violence.. which is what the supreme court decides and then can resolve the conflict.

That's like saying smoking isn't violence... but it promotes violence... you know somebody (like me*) who feels like burning the flag is wrong will see you smoking and beat the shit out of you and rip out your cancer ridden lungs.i. so it promotes violence.

Yep, we should ban anything that causes petty individuals to get so worked up that they cannot allow people to do what they don't like.

*well, actually, not like me ;)

Its funny-you never see an Amercian burning a flag of another country. Is that ok too?

Yeah thats fine. If an American burns a British flag outside Westminster then its their right to express there protest against that country.

Our world is small. The actions of one country affects us all. So if you disagree with a countries actions you should be allowed to show it.

3rd, similar to money (which is federally illegal to destroy), the flag should not be burned in public protests

that's a fallacious argument, as the burning of dollar bills has an effect on the american economy by taking notes out of circulation. Also, it is the destruction of bank notes and not the burning that is illegal.

That is complete bullshit. A democratic country can easily pass a law banning flag burning. People vote to pass the law, therefore it is democratic.

Besides, calling "setting something on fire" the same as "speech" is inane.

And in passing this law, they would restrict the freedoms of others. What is democracy? Is it tyranny by majority, or is it true and equal representation of the entire population?

And it's not 'freedom of speech'; it's freedom of expression.

Yeah thats fine. If an American burns a British flag outside Westminster then its their right to express there protest against that country.



I did not ask if it would be alright. I said you dont see it happen. It is not done.

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Lickers
Its funny-you never see an Amercian burning a flag of another country. Is that ok too?

Americans know that there are other countries? :eek:

Oh, yes, I forgot. They invade them occasionally.

So, you think pouring French wine down the drain as a protest against the French forgeing policy is essentially different?

See, most other countries don't care about their flags so much, because they know what they are. Symbols. Pieces of coloured cloth. They wouldn't get so worked up about it...

Ironically, the flag stands for free speech in even its ugly forms, which includes the right to burn that very flag.

ooooo the irony. drowning !!!!!!!!!

Its funny-you never see an Amercian burning a flag of another country. Is that ok too?


Fuck yeah!!! I'll even supply you with a danish flag to burn. We are nought but dirty Euro-centric communists after all.

Go for it!!!

Im so sick and tired of Patriotic fools. Your country is not good. Your government lies to you. You are not Free. You are in chains.

The American flag stands for Greed, Hate, War and Lies. The ideas behind America when it was founded, REAL Freedom, REAL Liberty have been twisted and forgotton. You should not try to protect a flag that stands for what a real America should be standing against.

SO BURN THE FLAG MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS! BURN IT WITH PRIDE!


.... :sigh: you are helpless case, and you have my pity for your lack of faith in this great nation that gives you the freedoms and abilities to speak your mind. You are a pessimistic anarchist and ignorant fool who believes the rest of the world is in a golden age in comparison to the United States. You slander your nation of which you should be proud. You dont know what it is to live elsewhere, youve been born with a silverspoon welded into your fucking mouth, and you take advantage of it to the fullest. While I pity you, i also feel a disgust towards you, sure you can have your opinions, but they are so far off-course from reality that your opinions shouldn't even be considered as valid points nor rational thoughts. Good luck with the rest of your seemigly worthless existance as a pessimistic ignorant AMERICAN fool.

If these people who burn the flag are indeed doing it to protest their right to burn flags, then they are indeed insulting people who died to protect their right to free speech.

HOWEVER....if someone died defending the right to free speech, AND they believed in what they were doing, do you really think they would be insulted by the very right they died to protect?

What are you getting at?

Flag burning, in my opinion, is a valid expression of free speech. However, I believe it is rather tasteless.

Also, you forgot the "I'll burn flags if Myrth does." option.

No way. If you decide to become violent because somebody else expressing their political belief, that's your desicion and your responsibilty.Then why do we have laws against inciting riots?

Maybe that's the answer. Everytime someone burns a flag, we riot. Then their actions would be illegal as they'd be "inciting a riot".
Like I said (somewhat sarcastic).

.... :sigh: you are helpless case, and you have my pity for your lack of faith in this great nation that gives you the freedoms and abilities to speak your mind. You are a pessimistic anarchist and ignorant fool who believes the rest of the world is in a golden age in comparison to the United States. You slander your nation of which you should be proud. You dont know what it is to live elsewhere, youve been born with a silverspoon welded into your fucking mouth, and you take advantage of it to the fullest. While I pity you, i also feel a disgust towards you, sure you can have your opinions, but they are so far off-course from reality that your opinions shouldn't even be considered as valid points nor rational thoughts. Good luck with the rest of your seemigly worthless existance as a pessimistic ignorant AMERICAN fool.

Hahahaha. Seems to me that you're the ignorant one. I'll say this: Your name fits your personality.

And in passing this law, they would restrict the freedoms of others. What is democracy? Is it tyranny by majority, or is it true and equal representation of the entire population?

And it's not 'freedom of speech'; it's freedom of expression.
No shit, Sherlock. I was pointing out the fallacy of his "democracy" argument. :rolleyes:

.... :sigh: you are helpless case, and you have my pity for your lack of faith in this great nation that gives you the freedoms and abilities to speak your mind. You are a pessimistic anarchist and ignorant fool who believes the rest of the world is in a golden age in comparison to the United States. You slander your nation of which you should be proud. You dont know what it is to live elsewhere, youve been born with a silverspoon welded into your fucking mouth, and you take advantage of it to the fullest. While I pity you, i also feel a disgust towards you, sure you can have your opinions, but they are so far off-course from reality that your opinions shouldn't even be considered as valid points nor rational thoughts. Good luck with the rest of your seemigly worthless existance as a pessimistic ignorant AMERICAN fool.

can I ask have you lived anywhere else?

Americans know that there are other countries? :eek:

Oh, yes, I forgot. They invade them occasionally.




What an absolutely moronic statement.

What an absolutely moronic statement.
I found it amusing. *Shrugs.*

can I ask have you lived anywhere else?


yes, i was born in Tel Aviv Israel, and lived their up until I was 12. I know people there who are as liberal as some here, saying that the suicide bombers are killing innocent israeli children, and it is the fault of the israeli army and govt. these ppl are also helpless cases, who lsot all faith, and choose to blame themselves for every bad thing aimed against them... it disgusts me.

Why do pro-burners feel that a flag-burning is a necessary part of showing your opposition to a country's policies? You could make your point a whole lot more cogently (and enrage far fewer people) with a well-written placard.

Since a flag is one of the primary symbols of a nation, anyone who defiles it has just symbolically defiled the whole country. If you hate your country enough to burn your own homeland's flag, why don't you just move somewhere else?

I found it amusing. *Shrugs.*

Same here.

Since a flag is one of the primary symbols of a nation, anyone who defiles it has just symbolically defiled the whole country. If you hate your country enough to burn your own homeland's flag, why don't you just move somewhere else?


well put!! ;)

Why do pro-burners feel that a flag-burning is a necessary part of showing your opposition to a country's policies? You could make your point a whole lot more cogently (and enrage far fewer people) with a well-written placard.
[snip]

I don't believe I ever said that. I believe I said it was a valid form of self-expression, but I don't believe I said it was an essential part of protest.

Why do pro-burners feel that a flag-burning is a necessary part of showing your opposition to a country's policies? You could make your point a whole lot more cogently (and enrage far fewer people) with a well-written placard.

Since a flag is one of the primary symbols of a nation, anyone who defiles it has just symbolically defiled the whole country. If you hate your country enough to burn your own homeland's flag, why don't you just move somewhere else?
EXACTLY!

Yeah thats fine. If an American burns a British flag outside Westminster then its their right to express there protest against that country.

Well, that depends on the flag burning laws in the specific country. I don't know how they are in the UK, but you could probably burn any nation's flag within the US just fine.

But a year or two ago here in Norway, a comedian got a case against him, for burning an American flag live on TV (don't know the outcome, though).

Why do pro-burners feel that a flag-burning is a necessary part of showing your opposition to a country's policies? You could make your point a whole lot more cogently (and enrage far fewer people) with a well-written placard.

Since a flag is one of the primary symbols of a nation, anyone who defiles it has just symbolically defiled the whole country. If you hate your country enough to burn your own homeland's flag, why don't you just move somewhere else?

1: It's called freedom of expression. Get used to it.

2: The fuck? This is my problem with you sorts. Burning a flag is *not* symbolically defiling an entire nation. What's with you people?

See, most other countries don't care about their flags so much, because they know what they are. Symbols. Pieces of coloured cloth. They wouldn't get so worked up about it...


i guess its a good thing AMerica isnt 'most other countries' then. America is the largest superpower nation in the world, the most powerful and influential, we didnt get this way by doing 'what all the other countries did'

Good luck with the rest of your seemigly worthless existance as a pessimistic ignorant AMERICAN fool.

Oi! im no fucking American. Im European, i live in Scotland you stupid fuck and I would happily burn a British Flag. We're nothing more than a bunch of right-wing fools. Anyway have you seen America lately?! Land of the Free!? NO fucking way.

Borders and Flags are tools to divided the people. To make us think that we are somehow different from people who live in another country and who have a different coloured bits of cloth hanging on polls.

And dont give me any crap like "but America protects the worlds freedoms, without America...blah blah blah."

America is just the worlds bully. Using this 'War' on terror to carry out policy that they have wanted to do for ages.

.... :sigh: you are helpless case, and you have my pity for your lack of faith in this great nation that gives you the freedoms and abilities to speak your mind. You are a pessimistic anarchist and ignorant fool who believes the rest of the world is in a golden age in comparison to the United States. You slander your nation of which you should be proud. You dont know what it is to live elsewhere, youve been born with a silverspoon welded into your fucking mouth, and you take advantage of it to the fullest. While I pity you, i also feel a disgust towards you, sure you can have your opinions, but they are so far off-course from reality that your opinions shouldn't even be considered as valid points nor rational thoughts. Good luck with the rest of your seemigly worthless existance as a pessimistic ignorant AMERICAN fool.

On another side note I hate to tell you that SCOTLAND IS NOT IN AMERICA!
Just thought I'd let you know that ;)

Since a flag is one of the primary symbols of a nation, anyone who defiles it has just symbolically defiled the whole country. If you hate your country enough to burn your own homeland's flag, why don't you just move somewhere else?

Cos many people don't have that option.

As I TRIED to point out early in this thread:

"Flag burning: freedom of speech????"

Freedom of speech is perhaps the most crutial of all freedoms, ranking perhaps a very close second to the right to keep and bear arms. Without the right to own weapons, the general public stands helpless before both criminals and any repressive government. Without freedom of speech, the general public stands helpless before the propaganda often dished out by special interests and venal governments.

The US flag means a great deal to me. It represents the people and the freedoms they exercise under the Constitution, including the freedom of speech. Yet, in all good conscience, I cannot but view burning the flag as an exercise of a citizen's right to free expression.

I might beat the everloving crap out of him if I totally lose it while he does so, but I will defend his right to burn it.

I don't agree with burning a countries flag, but if someone wants to do it, they have the choice. Although it might make alot of people hate them.

What are you getting at?

That I agree with you.

--

I think this sums up what I didn't phrase very well.


Ironically, the flag stands for free speech in even its ugly forms, which includes the right to burn that very flag.


I want to know from where this anger towards flag-burning comes from in the people that are against it? Do you see it as an insult to your country? Your country that believes in free speech and stands for the right of its citizens to practice that free speech?

Why is it damaging and offensive? I would very much like to see any logical argument about why it shouldn't be allowed.

Oi! im no fucking American. Im European, i live in Scotland you stupid fuck and I would happily burn a British Flag. We're nothing more than a bunch of right-wing fools. Anyway have you seen America lately?! Land of the Free!? NO fucking way.

Borders and Flags are tools to divided the people. To make us think that we are somehow different from people who live in another country and who have a different coloured bits of cloth hanging on polls.

And dont give me any crap like "but America protects the worlds freedoms, without America...blah blah blah."

America is just the worlds bully. Using this 'War' on terror to carry out policy that they have wanted to do for ages.

A round of beers for this man/woman/transvestite!

*Sorry, I'm just being safe...

Oi! im no fucking American. Im European, i live in Scotland you stupid fuck and I would happily burn a British Flag. We're nothing more than a bunch of right-wing fools. Anyway have you seen America lately?! Land of the Free!? NO fucking way.

Borders and Flags are tools to divided the people. To make us think that we are somehow different from people who live in another country and who have a different coloured bits of cloth hanging on polls.

And dont give me any crap like "but America protects the worlds freedoms, without America...blah blah blah."

America is just the worlds bully. Using this 'War' on terror to carry out policy that they have wanted to do for ages.

I'm with the dirty northern bastard on this one :D :D

Please note - friendly banter between Brits

Oi! im no fucking American. Im European, i live in Scotland you stupid fuck and I would happily burn a British Flag. We're nothing more than a bunch of right-wing fools. Anyway have you seen America lately?! Land of the Free!? NO fucking way.

Borders and Flags are tools to divided the people. To make us think that we are somehow different from people who live in another country and who have a different coloured bits of cloth hanging on polls.

And dont give me any crap like "but America protects the worlds freedoms, without America...blah blah blah."

America is just the worlds bully. Using this 'War' on terror to carry out policy that they have wanted to do for ages.


if america is so bad, why does any educated person in the world want to come to america to learn, to work, to live. it is the rights and the freedoms to better your life!!! Flags divide no one, they only unify people of the same nation. America is no bully, only a protector of the peace, but were no pussies either... if a nation fucks with us, we hit them back, with harder force, we dont get bossed around!

What are you getting at?

That I agree with you.

--

I think this sums up what I didn't phrase very well.


Ironically, the flag stands for free speech in even its ugly forms, which includes the right to burn that very flag.



To all the anti-burners here:
I want to know from where this anger towards flag-burning comes from in the people that are against it? Do you see it as an insult to your country? Your country that believes in free speech and stands for the right of its citizens to practice that free speech?

Why is it damaging and offensive? I would very much like to see any logical argument about why it shouldn't be allowed.

Why do pro-burners feel that a flag-burning is a necessary part of showing your opposition to a country's policies? You could make your point a whole lot more cogently (and enrage far fewer people) with a well-written placard.

Since a flag is one of the primary symbols of a nation, anyone who defiles it has just symbolically defiled the whole country. If you hate your country enough to burn your own homeland's flag, why don't you just move somewhere else?
My sentiments exactly. Imagine, if you will, if a protester hauled around a bald eagle and, "symbolicly", killed it during a protest. This is basically the same thing as flag burning. Tasteless and pointless.

I'm with the dirty northern bastard on this one

Please note - friendly banter between Brits
Once again, us geordie types are caught in the middle...
Place yer bets, ladies and gents!

It does seem contradictory, but the easiest way to look at it is like this.

the US flag represents the right to your own opinion and the right to free speech. Lets say that my opinion is that I should be able to burn a flag, and I choose to do so. The government says no, and punishes me. Suddenly, I don't have the right to free speech. the flag can no longer represent freedom of speech because we as a society don't have it.

Erm. Let me re-write this argument with a slight change:

The US flag represents the right to your own opinion and the right to free speech. Lets say that my opinion is that I should be able to kill my neighbour, and I choose to do so. The government says no, and punishes me. Suddenly, I don't have the right to free speech. the flag can no longer represent freedom of speech because we as a society don't have it.

You are making a leap from having the opinion that you should be able to do something, and actually being able to do something. Free speech might let you SAY you should have the right to kill your neighbour, but it does not grant you that right. It is freedom of speech, not freedom to act out all your opinions.

I also believe that flag-burning is really meaningless in the long run and should not be illegal, by the way. I am just pointing out that this particular argument doesn't hold up.

I'm with the dirty northern bastard on this one :D :D

Cheers my tea-loving southern friend :)

Flags divide no one, they only unify people of the same nation.

Thus dividing people internationally.

if america is so bad, why does any educated person in the world want to come to america to learn
They don't Oxford and Cambridge take the most foreign students

it is the rights and the freedoms to better your life!!!! Patriot act

Flags divide no one, they only unify people of the same nation. America is no bully, only a protector of the peace, but were no pussies either... if a nation fucks with us, we hit them back, with harder force, we dont get bossed around!

Quote of the day that TEAM AMERICA left out

any of u morons who think flag burning is ok should friggin leave this country too. its is completely unpatriotic and if u are not patriotic get the heck out. if i ever see anyone burning a flag i will be the first to run them over with my car. this country has enough morons that dont want to support it dont need u morons burning our symbol. :sniper:

Cheers my tea-loving southern friend :)

any time

That I agree with you.

Me too. :D

My sentiments exactly. Imagine, if you will, if a protester hauled around a bald eagle and, "symbolicly", killed it during a protest. This is basically the same thing as flag burning. Tasteless and pointless.

Taste is preference and strategy.

Oh and the bald-eagle thing... they are protected by federal law no?

Flags are a symbol of that country, true, but no more than that. They are derived from somehting to stop you from shooting the wrong guy in battle.

And there is a difference between patriotism and faith.

I have to say that burning the Flag is a form of expression....as horrible and disgusting as it is.

But...

There are many other ways of expressing your point then something so extreme. If you are so unhappy with the US, move to Canada. If you have reached the point that you are burning the same symbol that the marines struggled to keep aloft on Iwa Jima (I think that is spelled right) during WWII then maybe your should consider moving.

But this leads to another point. If you have the right to burn the flag as a form of expression what about the rights of those who find it offensive? Maybe I might feel that it is my right of expression to put my boot up a falg burners butt. Maybe I feel that by burning the flag you are insulting my father and grandfathers sacrifices during WWII and Vietnam.

Like I said there are better ways.

any of u morons who think flag burning is ok should friggin leave this country too. its is completely unpatriotic and if u are not patriotic get the heck out. if i ever see anyone burning a flag i will be the first to run them over with my car. this country has enough morons that dont want to support it dont need u morons burning our symbol. :sniper:
Well, this may just be a...
http://home.swipnet.se/digetalonga/bilder/puppet.jpg
puppet! :p

any of u morons who think flag burning is ok should friggin leave this country too. its is completely unpatriotic and if u are not patriotic get the heck out. if i ever see anyone burning a flag i will be the first to run them over with my car. this country has enough morons that dont want to support it dont need u morons burning our symbol. :sniper:

So puppet in your world your not allowed to disagree with your nation? And in your world you HAVE to be patriotic?

hmmm this goes against freedom of speech doesn't it? But wait we have about 4 pages of people saying that.

But hey it must be nice to live in your own world

Hey, don't send your flag burners here, we don't need them in Canada.

Let them burn the flag, it increases the risk of the guy doing it being set on fire

Well, this may just be a...
http://home.swipnet.se/digetalonga/bilder/puppet.jpg
puppet! :p

Hahahaha, excellent.

Today i spent a class period watching a movie that has to do with the Texas v. Johnson case of 1989. For those of you who dont know... this is a case where Johnson burned and spit on an American Flag on the steps of the Capitol Building. He was arrested and charged with desecration and disorderly conduct. The case went all the way to the supreme court, at which point he won the case based on free speech.

my question to you: where do we draw the line on free speech.
THe supreme court must take each 'free speech' case independently of another, as they make decisions on a case by case basis (and therefore, flag burning is not illegal in the constitution). There was a 'flag protection act of 1989' brought up by Bush Sr., not sure if it ever took effect, and if it did, if it is still in effect.

Constitutionally, theres nothing banning the act of flag burning.
Legally, if there isnt a law against it, i would be in support of such a law making flag burning illegal
Personally, i think 1 of 3 things should happen:
1. flag burners are lined up and shot
2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there
3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.


flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well. They burn the same symbol that covers the graves of soldiers who died for these assholes to have the right to protest, they insult every living patriotic american, and denegrate the greatness of this country. Honestly, send them to Pakistan or Syria or Saudi Arabia and let them burn a Pakistani flag, or a Syrian flag, or a Saudi Ararbian flag... they would be dead before the flag is completely burned. Protesting is fine, its a civil liberty that we have, but crossing the line into sheer and utter disrespect, is unnecessary and disgusting.


WHAT DO YOU THINK... I need to be able to write a sort of essay on this tomorrow in class arguing the different viewpoints.. and i want to hear everyone elses.


I agree completely.

if a nation fucks with us, we hit them back, with harder force, we dont get bossed around!

Oh that make it better then!? Two wrong dont make a right my friend.

Why do pro-burners feel that a flag-burning is a necessary part of showing your opposition to a country's policies? You could make your point a whole lot more cogently (and enrage far fewer people) with a well-written placard.

Simply, if you write a placard and wave it around, nobody pays any attention. If you burn a flag, the whole whole grinds to a halt and everyone looks to see what you are doing. The flag burner is using the paranoia of the audience against them. If people would just shrug and go about their business, flag burning would fade away as a non-useful means of attracting attention. It is because some people allow the flag-burners to get to them that the practice continues.

"What you resist, persists."

Hahahaha, excellent.
*Takes a not-very-womanly bow.* :p

I don't know about current interpretationsof US law, so I can't very well tell you whether it should be legalbased on Constitutional evidence. However, I believe that whether or not it is allowed for based on current evidence, it should be. It's not like you are burning a person, it's just an object. If you want to buy a flag and burn it, then go ahead, it's yours.

I don't know about current interpretationsof US law, so I can't very well tell you whether it should be legalbased on Constitutional evidence. However, I believe that whether or not it is allowed for based on current evidence, it should be. It's not like you are burning a person, it's just an object. If you want to buy a flag and burn it, then go ahead, it's yours.

Agreed. And, if you wanna shove a candle up your ass, go ahead. It's your own fault if it gets stuck.

>.>

Burning a flag should NOT be protected by freedom of expression. If you want to clearly state your opposition to a country or its government, fine. Do so with civility.

How does burning a flag accomplish that in any form? It's closer to saying, "I HATE this country and I want it to meet the same fate as Carthage," which is closer to treasonous speech than anything else.

wow..half this thread is now flaming. I guess sicne its about freedom to burn the flag that its alright.

I suspect if it were some blatantly anti european thread people would have been banned by now,the thread likely locked.

Thats ok though. The US is held to a much higher standard than the rest of the world, for whatever reason. The good news is that we often attain that standard.

Simply, if you write a placard and wave it around, nobody pays any attention. If you burn a flag, the whole whole grinds to a halt and everyone looks to see what you are doing. The flag burner is using the paranoia of the audience against them. If people would just shrug and go about their business, flag burning would fade away as a non-useful means of attracting attention. It is because some people allow the flag-burners to get to them that the practice continues.

"What you resist, persists."
Very true. The same can be said for any form of protest. At the fundamental level, people don't like change, which is why burning what many people see as a symbol of 'home' and 'stability' is garuanteed a spot on the 22.00 news

Burning a flag should NOT be protected by freedom of expression. If you want to clearly state your opposition to a country or its government, fine. Do so with civility.

How does burning a flag accomplish that in any form? It's closer to saying, "I HATE this country and I want it to meet the same fate as Carthage, which is closer to treasonous speech than anything else."

All you're doing is burning a colorful piece of cloth. You're not harming anyone.

Heh. You say that people should be allowed to express their distaste of government, but not by burning a piece of cloth? Hypocrite.

All you're doing is burning a colorful piece of cloth. You're not harming anyone.

Yes, but if I shoot up on heroin, I"m not harming anyone either. However, last I checked, heroin is still illegal.

Burning a flag should NOT be protected by freedom of expression. If you want to clearly state your opposition to a country or its government, fine. Do so with civility.

How does burning a flag accomplish that in any form? It's closer to saying, "I HATE this country and I want it to meet the same fate as Carthage"

Then by this logic you should ban the flying of any flags.

FLYING a flag should NOT be protected by freedom of expression. If you want to clearly state your SUPPORT FOR a country or its government, fine. Do so with civility.

How does flying a flag accomplish that in any form?

Burning a flag should NOT be protected by freedom of expression. If you want to clearly state your opposition to a country or its government, fine. Do so with civility.

How does burning a flag accomplish that in any form? It's closer to saying, "I HATE this country and I want it to meet the same fate as Carthage," which is closer to treasonous speech than anything else.
And why is treason necessarily wrong? As I said before, there is a difference between patriotism and faith.

Yes, but if I shoot up on heroin, I"m not harming anyone either. However, last I checked, heroin is still illegal.

Your harming yourself, if you burnt the American flag you wouldn't be harming yourself

Let them burn the flag, it increases the risk of the guy doing it being set on fire



Hmmm...good idea. Produce a deliberately defective flag that consumes the burner in flame. We could video tape all those trying desperately to kick and beat the fire out and sell that too.

Burning a flag entails a powerful political statement, as many of you have noted. So for that very reason, it should be allowed to be made. Is the ruling going to be "well, free speech is only allowed when it's mild and it agrees with everything we think anyway"??

Fact is, America (not that I am American) would still be the (insert adjective here) country it is if it didn't have its flag. It's a country that enables people to express strong and controversial views - of every conceivable description.

I *know* a flag is more than a piece of cloth, but seriously, guys. What if America had a stupid-looking flag rather than a good-looking one? Would that make America a worse country? What if the thing people were draping over dead servicemen's coffins was purple with yellow polka dots? Would that make their sacrifice less meaningful? Are all the people who "fought and died under the flag" (not that flags are carried into battle in modern warfare) meant to fight for their country solely because they like its flag? By that logic, you'd expect soldiers to switch sides to whoever has the nicest looking flag.

The argument that "soldiers died to protect that freedom" is, in my view, the best argument ever to allow that freedom to continue. Some Americans hate their country. And more Americans hate their *government*. If people can't tell the difference between expressing hatred for a country and hatred for a government, then that's a huge step towards dictatorship just there.

If people are afraid to speak in favour of their beliefs because they'll bring down the wrath of the government upon them, **that** is what will make America a lesser country. The princple of free speech, fundamentally, is that the government isn't always absolutely right and the only way to ensure the best government is that all are allowed to voice their honest, bottom-of-the-guts opinion about it.

The idea that "people should be shot for expressing sentiments against the government" is one I thought died on the day the American Revolution took place.

Yes, but if I shoot up on heroin, I"m not harming anyone either. However, last I checked, heroin is still illegal.

And flag burning is legal. Hahahaha.

*By the way, drugs shouldn't be illegal. This is another reason why I dislike our government butting into people's personal lives. Would I do drugs? No. But, just because I wouldn't doesn't mean that others shouldn't be able to. See where I'm going with this?

If illegal then everything in the constitution should be illegal.

Free speech is the stupidest thing. For example:
1. I can legally preach how/why Jews are bad and/or if Adolf was right (although I am not antisemitic and don't agree with him)
2. I can be sued for calling someone who is not a bastard a bastard.

Hmmm. So I can burn a flag but not say something unless its true (such as I can not call a human a sob since the b is the definition of a female dog).

Yes, but if I shoot up on heroin, I"m not harming anyone either. However, last I checked, heroin is still illegal.

your harming yourself. If you burn a flag properly you won't hurt yourself

-snip-


WHAT DO YOU THINK... I need to be able to write a sort of essay on this tomorrow in class arguing the different viewpoints.. and i want to hear everyone elses.


Are you only speaking of the burning of the US flag here in the US?

Or are you talking about All flag burning? Like if someone here burnt the flag of another country.

As much as it would piss me off for someone here to burn the US flag (unless they were about to leave the country for good), I have to say we should have that right... and also the right to burn any another nations flag.

I understand where people who support Flag Burning are coming from. They're right in a sense that it is a way of expression about their government. However I think the practice should be illegal for the simple fact I think burning the American Flag is disrespectful to those who gave their lives to keep our country, our way of life and our world free. My Grandfather served in WWII in Europe. He was a P.O.W. and he risked his life to free others and to make sure America was not in harms way from the Third Reich. All of the soldiers who fought for our freedom from the days of the Revolutionary War, to today the War on Terror may go un-named but their sacrifice is shown proudly in the Stars and Stripes. Find another way of showing your anger towards Uncle Sam, leave the flag alone, too many men and women lost their lives to protect the rights that the flag represents. It would really be like disrespecting the dead...

All you're doing is burning a colorful piece of cloth. You're not harming anyone.

Heh. You say that people should be allowed to express their distaste of government, but not by burning a piece of cloth? Hypocrite.

I think what a lot of people are confusing is what we're even talking about:

You're above interpertation of flag burning is that it is distastful, expressive, etc.

People in favor of burning it aren't talking about their own personal interpertations of it. Most of us don't care it sounds like....

what we *are* talking about is your right to burn it. Only those opposed to it are giving their opinions and interpertations of the actions. The rest of us aren't worried about "what it means." Leave that to the person actually burning it. Go up and ask him or her why they are doing it. It is within your rights to disagree with why they do it. But that shouldn't prevent them from doing it in the first place. :(

I think what a lot of people are confusing is what we're even talking about:

You're above interpertation of flag burning is that it is distastful, expressive, etc.

People in favor of burning it aren't talking about their own personal interpertations of it. Most of us don't care it sounds like....

what we *are* talking about is your right to burn it. Only those opposed to it are giving their opinions and interpertations of the actions. The rest of us aren't worried about "what it means." Leave that to the person actually burning it. Go up and ask him or her why they are doing it. It is within your rights to disagree with why they do it. But that shouldn't prevent them from doing it in the first place. :(

Exactly.

To all the people who say that a flag "is just some colorful cloth": don't forget that people LOVE that cloth. Most are even willing to die or suffer grievous injury to body and spirit for that cloth. People have their coffins wrapped in that cloth during their funeral. That cloth is an incarnation of their country, much the same way as a head of state is an embodiment of the spirit of the nation.

When someone burns that cloth, it's a slap in the face to the nation, and by extension, to everyone who loves the nation. That's why many say it should be illegal. You're not expressing a democratic opposition to a (temporary) government or its (changeable) policies. You're attacking the idea of the country itself, and everything it stands for.

If you've seen a war movie set during the 1800s, remember the flag bearer? It was the greatest dishonor for him to lose the flag, and if he died, another would unhesitatingly pick that flag up and keep going. In some battles, units went through a dozen standard-bearers. But the flag was sacred and had to be preserved at all costs.

The anti-burners of today are the spiritual descendants of those 19th-century flag bearers. THAT is why they don't think torching the symbol of their nation is, or ever can be, legitimate expression.

Wow, now I think I understand why people want to burn the flag! Such violent words from these patriotics! Doesn't it piss you off though, burning a flag doesn't directly harm any living beings body, but wanting to beat them up for hating your government does. Do you think that this violence might have something to do with people wanting to protest against such government? I think it does.

Maxima Culpa']The idea that "people should be shot for expressing sentiments against the government" is one I thought died on the day the American Revolution took place.
It's the old 'fear of change' thing again. Just about everything bad in this world can be traced back to it.

Except ringtones. They are evil from another dimension.

Does it seem like Americans in general have difficulty with the concepts of "I have the right to" and "the other guy has the right to"?

For example, "I have the right to mow my lawn on Sunday afternoon, as it hurts nobody but my lawn, and since it is MY lawn, I can decide to mow it".

versus

"He shouldn't be allowed to mow his lawn, what about my right to enjoy my Sunday without having to hear his lawnmower?"

It seems to me that if something does not directly affect anyone else, legislation is unnecessary. Someone burning a flag has no effect whatsoever on anyone else, unless the flag he is lighting up happens to be in the form of the Hallowe'en Wonder Woman costume you are wearing. Any effect you claim this causes is entirely in the mind of those witnessing it, and as such it is entirely within their control. How you respond to something is YOUR responsibility.

This whole "he shouldn't be allowed to do anything that I find offensive" thing has to end. I rather suspect that if doing anything that offends somebody else were made illegal, we would all be in prison, every single one of us. Time to grow up a bit and recognise that in a relative world there is always someone who holds the opposite opinion to our own and that is never going to change.

I understand where people who support Flag Burning are coming from. They're right in a sense that it is a way of expression about their government. However I think the practice should be illegal for the simple fact I think burning the American Flag is disrespectful to those who gave their lives to keep our country, our way of life and our world free. My Grandfather served in WWII in Europe. He was a P.O.W. and he risked his life to free others and to make sure America was not in harms way from the Third Reich. All of the soldiers who fought for our freedom from the days of the Revolutionary War, to today the War on Terror may go un-named but their sacrifice is shown proudly in the Stars and Stripes. Find another way of showing your anger towards Uncle Sam, leave the flag alone, too many men and women lost their lives to protect the rights that the flag represents. It would really be like disrespecting the dead...

Ugh. Look --- It's their right to express themselves freely. You don't have to like what they're doing, but don't take away their right to do it.

Think about it: Would you be any better than a "disrespectful flag defiler" if you stripped them of their freedoms?

your harming yourself. If you burn a flag properly you won't hurt yourself

True, but people are allowed to harm themselves. If I want to smoke a pack a day, eat nothing but red meat and potato chips, cut and scar myself in a whole bunch of odd ways, the state will do NOTHING to stop me. Hell, even if I attempt suicide, I'll not be charged. Doing heroin is the same thing.

Hmmm...good idea. Produce a deliberately defective flag that consumes the burner in flame.
I like that idea. Also, we could riot whenever someone burns a flag, therefore they would be "inciting a riot", which is illegal.

wow..half this thread is now flaming. I guess sicne its about freedom to burn the flag that its alright.

I suspect if it were some blatantly anti european thread people would have been banned by now,the thread likely locked.

Thats ok though. The US is held to a much higher standard than the rest of the world, for whatever reason. The good news is that we often attain that standard.

I can only speak for myself but as I've made quite a few responses on this I feel as though I can answer this.

Firstly your comparrison to "anti european" is completly unjustified as we are talking about flag burning in general. Its the Americans that have turned it into burning American flags.

Secondly how are you "held to a higher standard"? And how do you "attain that standard"?

AND JUST TO MAKE IT ABSOLUTELY CLEAR FOR SOME PEOPLE I AM IN NO WAY BEING ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-EUROPEAN AND CERTAINLY NOT ANTI-MARTIAN

This whole "he shouldn't be allowed to do anything that I find offensive" thing has to end. I rather suspect that if doing anything that offends somebody else were made illegal, we would all be in prison, every single one of us. Time to grow up a bit and recognise that in a relative world there is always someone who holds the opposite opinion to our own and that is never going to change.
Except those of us who find being put into prison offensive, of course ;) . I agree though.

True, but people are allowed to harm themselves. If I want to smoke a pack a day, eat nothing but red meat and potato chips, cut and scar myself in a whole bunch of odd ways, the state will do NOTHING to stop me. Hell, even if I attempt suicide, I'll not be charged. Doing heroin is the same thing.

Most of those things the government makes money on ;)

Does it seem like Americans in general have difficulty with the concepts of "I have the right to" and "the other guy has the right to"?

For example, "I have the right to mow my lawn on Sunday afternoon, as it hurts nobody but my lawn, and since it is MY lawn, I can decide to mow it".

versus

"He shouldn't be allowed to mow his lawn, what about my right to enjoy my Sunday without having to hear his lawnmower?"

It seems to me that if something does not directly affect anyone else, legislation is unnecessary. Someone burning a flag has no effect whatsoever on anyone else, unless the flag he is lighting up happens to be in the form of the Hallowe'en Wonder Woman costume you are wearing. Any effect you claim this causes is entirely in the mind of those witnessing it, and as such it is entirely within their control. How you respond to something is YOUR responsibility.

This whole "he shouldn't be allowed to do anything that I find offensive" thing has to end. I rather suspect that if doing anything that offends somebody else were made illegal, we would all be in prison, every single one of us. Time to grow up a bit and recognise that in a relative world there is always someone who holds the opposite opinion to our own and that is never going to change.

You deserve a cookie.

*hands you a cookie*

Erm. Let me re-write this argument with a slight change:

The US flag represents the right to your own opinion and the right to free speech. Lets say that my opinion is that I should be able to kill my neighbour, and I choose to do so. The government says no, and punishes me. Suddenly, I don't have the right to free speech. the flag can no longer represent freedom of speech because we as a society don't have it.

You are making a leap from having the opinion that you should be able to do something, and actually being able to do something. Free speech might let you SAY you should have the right to kill your neighbour, but it does not grant you that right. It is freedom of speech, not freedom to act out all your opinions.


see, there is a HUGE difference between what you said and what I said. You can NOT, according to the constitution, deny someone life, liberty, or property. By killing someone, you deny them life.

"Speech" not only covers words, but also symbolic speech (freedom of expression is also covered by 1st amendment, I use speech so I don't have to write everything out each time)


any of u morons who think flag burning is ok should friggin leave this country too. its is completely unpatriotic and if u are not patriotic get the heck out. if i ever see anyone burning a flag i will be the first to run them over with my car. this country has enough morons that dont want to support it dont need u morons burning our symbol.

Why do pro-burners feel that a flag-burning is a necessary part of showing your opposition to a country's policies? You could make your point a whole lot more cogently (and enrage far fewer people) with a well-written placard.

Since a flag is one of the primary symbols of a nation, anyone who defiles it has just symbolically defiled the whole country. If you hate your country enough to burn your own homeland's flag, why don't you just move somewhere else?

okay, I'll take these both on at once, since they're pretty similar in basic ideas (one much more nicely put, and let me note, it is appreciated!) I am for the right of flag burning. I personally would not do it at this moment, but I am proud that I come from a nation where I can make this powerful of a statement without fearing for my life. I don't think it is necessary...quite the opposite actually. I think it should only be used in extreme cases. It is a powerful display, as shown by the many pages of reaction, and should be treated as such. I don't hate America, I love it. But that does not mean that I love everything about it. There are many things I want to change, and therefore, I protest them. If I hated America, I would move in a heartbeat. It is my love that keeps me here, and that keeps me protesting things that I see as wrong.


My sentiments exactly. Imagine, if you will, if a protester hauled around a bald eagle and, "symbolicly", killed it during a protest. This is basically the same thing as flag burning. Tasteless and pointless.

Again, big difference. A Bald eagle is both alive and endangered. A flag is neither. Killing something that is ultimatly an animal for protest purposes is VERY different from burning something that is ultimatly a piece of fabric for the same purposes


How does burning a flag accomplish that in any form? It's closer to saying, "I HATE this country and I want it to meet the same fate as Carthage," which is closer to treasonous speech than anything else.

It makes people look. That simple. It is like a giant neon sign that says "FUCK YOU, LOOK AT ME NOW" People notice. While it may not help the cause itself directly, it calls attention, and that is part of the point of protest


Yes, but if I shoot up on heroin, I"m not harming anyone either. However, last I checked, heroin is still illegal.

heroin hurts yourself, which is why it is illegal. the government provides for personal safety as well as safety for the greater population


and now, I must go eat.

AND JUST TO MAKE IT ABSOLUTELY CLEAR FOR SOME PEOPLE I AM IN NO WAY BEING ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-EUROPEAN AND CERTAINLY NOT ANTI-MARTIAN

You're not anti-Martian? Finally, somebody I can identify with!

And why is treason necessarily wrong? As I said before, there is a difference between patriotism and faith.

Treason is always, always wrong. If you claim the benefits of belonging to a particular group (a country), then betray that group, they would be quite justified in wreaking bloody vengeance upon you.

AND JUST TO MAKE IT ABSOLUTELY CLEAR FOR SOME PEOPLE I AM IN NO WAY BEING ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-EUROPEAN AND CERTAINLY NOT ANTI-MARTIAN
:D That's going in the sig. I've been looking for a quote for ages, thanks.

:D That's going in the sig. I've been looking for a quote for ages, thanks.
as long as you put my name on it have a cookie!! :D

You're not anti-Martian? Finally, somebody I can identify with!
raises beer AMEN

Treason is always, always wrong. If you claim the benefits of belonging to a particular group (a country), then betray that group, they would be quite justified in wreaking bloody vengeance upon you.
But surely fighting for what you belive in is right? And if you don't agree with the majority, then you are not necessarilly bound by their code of 'honour'.

I'm heading into dangerous territory here, I can see...

I'm heading into dangerous territory here, I can see...

Ah, it's not so bad. When you have a Political Compass "score" as far-left as mine, you're always in dangerous territory.

It makes people look. That simple. It is like a giant neon sign that says "FUCK YOU, LOOK AT ME NOW" People notice. While it may not help the cause itself directly, it calls attention, and that is part of the point of protest. And now, I must go eat

True, people will look, but they will also be disgusted and repelled. The point of a protest is to change something. If you're making people mad, you won't be accomplishing your goal and you may as well have stayed home that day.

It's a lot like an annoying ad on tv. People say, "Well, you remember the ad well, right? That's the whole point of advertising." Wrong! The point of advertising is to get you to buy their product. If there's an ad that annoys me to the point where I think, "Those buggers are pissing me off so much -- I'm never going to buy anything from them again," then the money they're spending on that ad is actually losing them business.

And bon appetit.

But surely fighting for what you belive in is right? And if you don't agree with the majority, then you are not necessarilly bound by their code of honour.

...

I agree, if you believe you are being oppressed, you must fight that oppression, even if it continues to oppress you, and even though they may punish you for fighting them with the laws of the system in place, they are more than likely corrupt laws, at least in the opinion of the rebel

well....this got me a little worked up. enjoy my opinion.


I have nothing wring with burning a flag, except the actual act of burning the damn thing.

A flag represents the people and ideas of a country, it is one of the most insulting things(in my mind) one can do to really piss off someone(like me!).

Im getting the fealing most of you were not born and raised in America(notice the capital 'A' there btw). It just pisses me off the some of you people would actually allow the burning of an American flag. Thats way over the line of free speach. The flag reprsents the constition of its country, so a citizen buring their flag is basicly saying "down with the government". It also angers me that most of you view the act of burning a flag, OF ANY NATION(even Mexico), is a acceptable way to demistrate protest. It is just sickening. There has got to be at least a hundred other ways you can protest a countries actions or policies without the need of fire.

I don't know about most of you, but I am proud of the land that I live in. I am a patriot.

I have nothing wring with burning a flag, except the actual act of burning the damn thing.

I stopped reading after this.

*shakes head in confusion and disgust*

well....this got me a little worked up. enjoy my opinion.


I have nothing wring with burning a flag, except the actual act of burning the damn thing.

A flag represents the people and ideas of a country, it is one of the most insulting things(in my mind) one can do to really piss off someone(like me!).

Im getting the fealing most of you were not born and raised in America(notice the capital 'A' there btw). It just pisses me off the some of you people would actually allow the burning of an American flag. Thats way over the line of free speach. The flag reprsents the constition of its country, so a citizen buring their flag is basicly saying "down with the government". It also angers me that most of you view the act of burning a flag, OF ANY NATION(even Mexico), is a acceptable way to demistrate protest. It is just sickening. There has got to be at least a hundred other ways you can protest a countries actions or policies without the need of fire.

I don't know about most of you, but I am proud of the land that I live in. I am a patriot.

The thing was this discussion started with saying is flag burning in general but that has been hijacked to mean can we all burn the American flag. I'm purely talking about the burning of any flags as a sign of protest and believe it is right to do so

But surely fighting for what you belive in is right? And if you don't agree with the majority, then you are not necessarilly bound by their code of 'honour'.

I'm heading into dangerous territory here, I can see...

But then why do you claim membership in the group if you're going to be working against them?

I don't have an airtight definition of "treason," but I think it's something that's pretty damn serious. For example, if you were in the streets protesting the Iraq war (in a civilized way, of course ... no "Bushitler" signs), that's not treason. You disagree with gov't policy.

On the other hand, if you sold fissionable material to Osama bin Laden, then you're guilty of treason.

Once the country has set a policy, you can disagree with it and voice your disagreement all you like, but for the love of God, don't actively undermine it. And never give succor to enemies of the nation.

Today i spent a class period watching a movie that has to do with the Texas v. Johnson case of 1989. For those of you who dont know... this is a case where Johnson burned and spit on an American Flag on the steps of the Capitol Building. He was arrested and charged with desecration and disorderly conduct. The case went all the way to the supreme court, at which point he won the case based on free speech.

my question to you: where do we draw the line on free speech.
THe supreme court must take each 'free speech' case independently of another, as they make decisions on a case by case basis (and therefore, flag burning is not illegal in the constitution). There was a 'flag protection act of 1989' brought up by Bush Sr., not sure if it ever took effect, and if it did, if it is still in effect.

Constitutionally, theres nothing banning the act of flag burning.
Legally, if there isnt a law against it, i would be in support of such a law making flag burning illegal
Personally, i think 1 of 3 things should happen:
1. flag burners are lined up and shot
2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there
3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.


flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well. They burn the same symbol that covers the graves of soldiers who died for these assholes to have the right to protest, they insult every living patriotic american, and denegrate the greatness of this country. Honestly, send them to Pakistan or Syria or Saudi Arabia and let them burn a Pakistani flag, or a Syrian flag, or a Saudi Ararbian flag... they would be dead before the flag is completely burned. Protesting is fine, its a civil liberty that we have, but crossing the line into sheer and utter disrespect, is unnecessary and disgusting.


WHAT DO YOU THINK... I need to be able to write a sort of essay on this tomorrow in class arguing the different viewpoints.. and i want to hear everyone elses.

Isn't the flag a symbol of American freedom and liberty to act as you please as long as it doesn't effect other people's freedom. didn't those p
soldiers die for the freedom to burn the flag and not for people to be shot for burning a piece of cloth. Oh waht a home of liberalism you once were

Ah, it's not so bad. When you have a Political Compass "score" as far-left as mine, you're always in dangerous territory.
I can see I'm among allies :fluffle: mine was about -8.2 econo and -9.8 socio (i think)
as long as you put my name on it have a cookie!! Consider it done! *scrunch*

well....this got me a little worked up. enjoy my opinion.


I have nothing wring with burning a flag, except the actual act of burning the damn thing.

A flag represents the people and ideas of a country, it is one of the most insulting things(in my mind) one can do to really piss off someone(like me!).

Im getting the fealing most of you were not born and raised in America(notice the capital 'A' there btw). It just pisses me off the some of you people would actually allow the burning of an American flag. Thats way over the line of free speach. The flag reprsents the constition of its country, so a citizen buring their flag is basicly saying "down with the government". It also angers me that most of you view the act of burning a flag, OF ANY NATION(even Mexico), is a acceptable way to demistrate protest. It is just sickening. There has got to be at least a hundred other ways you can protest a countries actions or policies without the need of fire.

I don't know about most of you, but I am proud of the land that I live in. I am a patriot.
But why is it wrong to say "Down with $NATION!!!"? If that's truly all flag-burning is equivalent to, shouldn't saying that be illegal too?
But I do believe saying that falls under free speech.

Actually, I was born and raised in the United States, I have a military family, both parents served in the military, not to mention uncles, cousins, grandfathers, and so on. I'm a political activist, and I think that this government in many ways is corrupt. I've never burnt a flag, nor will I, but I would fight for the right to do so.

I can see I'm among allies :fluffle: mine was about -8.2 econo and 9.8 socio (i think)

It's always good to have like-minded company.

*hands you a cookie*

I agree, if you believe you are being oppressed, you must fight that oppression, even if it continues to oppress you, and even though they may punish you for fighting them with the laws of the system in place, they are more than likely corrupt laws, at least in the opinion of the rebel

Where do you live, GypsyWind (if you're true to your name, maybe you're nomadic? :)) If it's anywhere in the West, you're not oppressed. Trust me.

I haven't read all of this (man this'll be interesting for a while) but is not burning a flag the same concept as burning someone in effigy (sp?)? You can't actually burn Conrad Black, but I've seen it done in protests, nor can you directly hurt a nation (not people/economy/ideology), so, in protest, you symbolically harm them. That said, there are generally better ways to protest, but when an individual or group turns to flag burning (especially of their own nation) then I assume they have pretty much exhausted all other avenues.

But then why do you claim membership in the group if you're going to be working against them?

I don't have an airtight definition of "treason," but I think it's something that's pretty damn serious. For example, if you were in the streets protesting the Iraq war (in a civilized way, of course ... no "Bushitler" signs), that's not treason. You disagree with gov't policy.

On the other hand, if you sold fissionable material to Osama bin Laden, then you're guilty of treason.

Once the country has set a policy, you can disagree with it and voice your disagreement all you like, but for the love of God, don't actively undermine it. And never give succor to enemies of the nation.
Surely undermining it could be part of the disagreement? I'm sorry, i'd like to go into this further, but I really don't have time tonight. I'll be back.
And on that bombshell, Adios

Grand Teton and Potaria, even though we're on opposite sides of the ideological divide, believe me, I sympathize. Seems like I'm always in dangerous territory, especially in generally left-leaning boards like this one. Where are all the other neo-cons? Oh right, they're busy taking over the REAL world :cool:

Political compass: +7, +7.

Edit: Can I have a cookie too? Don't make me sic Rummy on you!

It's always good to have like-minded company.



I'm not quite as extreme but I think we are on the same wave length

*offers cookie of apreciation*

True, people will look, but they will also be disgusted and repelled. The point of a protest is to change something. If you're making people mad, you won't be accomplishing your goal and you may as well have stayed home that day.

It's a lot like an annoying ad on tv. People say, "Well, you remember the ad well, right? That's the whole point of advertising." Wrong! The point of advertising is to get you to buy their product. If there's an ad that annoys me to the point where I think, "Those buggers are pissing me off so much -- I'm never going to buy anything from them again," then the money they're spending on that ad is actually losing them business.

And bon appetit.



hmm....very very true.

I guess I look at it like this...controversey makes people take notice of the issue. If you notice it, you might think "what is worth doing this over", and maybe look into it.

As far as the annoying commercial, we've all had that damn one hit wonder song stuck in our head. And it just keeps playing. I think it is something like that. It bothers you...you hate it even...but you can't get it out of your mind. You HAVE to think about it. And even if you disagree with the ideals, you'll be thinking. And maybe you'll begin to agree

again, I'm against flag burning personally, but I support the RIGHT to do it.

and thank you. Subway makes one heck of a sub.

It really depends on who is doing the burning. An American citizen shouldn't be allowed to write on much less burn the American flag; in fact it is law. (One which Bush (http://www.dubyaspeak.com/incidents.shtml) doesn't know) But it is perfectly acceptable for anyone else (such as Muslims) to burn the American flag or anyone else's flag. An American burning the American flag, even in the most extreme situations, is unacceptable. The flag represents the country and if one burns their own flag, they are desecrating themselves, their country and what they are trying to accomplish.

Grand Teton and Potaria, even though we're on opposite sides of the ideological divide, believe me, I sympathize. Seems like I'm always in dangerous territory, especially in generally left-leaning boards like this one. Where are all the other neo-cons? Oh right, they're busy taking over the REAL world :cool:

Political compass: +7, +7.

Edit: Can I have a cookie too? Don't make me sic Rummy on you!
I'll ignore that

its all good in love and war

*offers cookie*

there are other ways to protest other than burning the one thing that symbolizes all the laws, rights, rules, and a plethera of historical and important moments. Burning the flag is not speech @ all, it is not assembly, and it is not religion. Sure burning the flag might have a message, but the action is not particulalry allowed by the constitution. The Supreme Court gets the fun job of deciding which of the commies they want to send to jail based on the instance. Really, burning a flag is not necessary for protest... it removes the peaceful part of the 'peaceful protest; which the govt. so allows.

and dong give me that bullshit about: 'well its only a piece of colorful cloth.. boo hoo, stop making fun of me'. If its only a stupid piece of cloth, why dont you sew a flag with a picture of your family and burn it on your front porch. If it were only an unimportant piece of cloth, you flagburners wouldnt be burning it in the first place.. you want to incite anger by doing this.. which in many cases results in violence, which is not tolerable. so to avoiod the entire situation completely... no more flag-burning.

Honestly, if you hate the country so much that you would burn the flag that symblizes your rights and those who died for you to grow up to be an asshole... i might suggest looking for real estate in Canada... or perhaps france.. they would love you there.
Idk if theres a law banning it now, but id be in favor of one too.

I'm not quite as extreme but I think we are on the same wave length

*offers cookie of apreciation*

Anything as farther left of center than -2 is considered good company, so have a cookie.

*hands you a cookie, and takes cookie that was offered*

Burning the flag is not speech @ all, it is not assembly, and it is not religion.

You're right, 'cos it's expression, which is protected.

Because it's ARSON! ;)

ARSON

n : malicious burning to destroy property; "the British term for arson is fire-raising" [syn: incendiarism, fire-raising]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

It really depends on who is doing the burning. An American citizen shouldn't be allowed to write on much less burn the American flag; in fact it is law. (One which Bush (http://www.dubyaspeak.com/incidents.shtml) doesn't know) ...An American burning the American flag, even in the most extreme situations, is unacceptable. The flag represents the country and if one burns their own flag, they are desecrating themselves, their country and what they are trying to accomplish.
Untrue. It is actually the LAW that states that Americans are required to burn a flag to dispose of it. This is the same law that says we can not have clothing that uses its image, allow it to touch the ground, or fly it at night. Clearly, it us not enforced.

see, there is a HUGE difference between what you said and what I said. You can NOT, according to the constitution, deny someone life, liberty, or property. By killing someone, you deny them life.

The difference is in the specific detail, but the structure of the fallacious argument is the same. In order to point out the fallacy of the reasoning it was necessary to make the incorrect conclusion of the resultant argument glaringly apparent.

"Speech" not only covers words, but also symbolic speech (freedom of expression is also covered by 1st amendment.

Now you have waded into the murky waters of what constitutes "symbolic speech". There are some people who will never accept that burning an object is symbolic speech, and others who would willingly cede that to you. You will use the argument from legality to claim that burning a live human being is unconstitutional, as you did in the above snippet. Well, if flag burning is made illegal, the same argument will apply to flags. The question being debated is "should it"?

I am an American and I believe that flag burning should be 100% legal. It is your right of free speech. If you do not support your government then by all means burn the flag. I would burn the American flag because it no longer stands for a real democracy. It stands for the oppressive Right-wing government that under the Republican Party has gained to much power over the people. This country has even gone as far as to try to make so the FBI can barge down your door without a warrant under the new addons to the Patriot Act. Once a real democracy is put back into place then the flag should no longer be burnt.

Freedom of speech is perhaps the most crutial [sic] of all freedoms, ranking perhaps a very close second to the right to keep and bear arms.

That makes me laugh. Then cry.

If it were only an unimportant piece of cloth, you flagburners wouldnt be burning it in the first place.. i might suggest looking for real estate in Canada...

Bravissimo, Bobby! I think that sums up the whole argument admirably right there.

But boourns to you :mp5: for even suggesting that flag burners come up here. Fuck that, we've got enough of 'em already!

there are other ways to protest other than burning the one thing that symbolizes all the laws, rights, rules, and a plethera of historical and important moments. Burning the flag is not speech @ all, it is not assembly, and it is not religion. Sure burning the flag might have a message, but the action is not particulalry allowed by the constitution. The Supreme Court gets the fun job of deciding which of the commies they want to send to jail based on the instance. Really, burning a flag is not necessary for protest... it removes the peaceful part of the 'peaceful protest; which the govt. so allows.
I don't see anything not peaceful about burning a flag. As long as there's not a riot, I don't see how having something on fire makes it less peaceful.
and dong give me that bullshit about: 'well its only a piece of colorful cloth.. boo hoo, stop making fun of me'. If its only a stupid piece of cloth, why dont you sew a flag with a picture of your family and burn it on your front porch.
Nobody is trying to demonstrate against their family.
If it were only an unimportant piece of cloth, you flagburners wouldnt be burning it in the first place.. you want to incite anger by doing this.. which in many cases results in violence, which is not tolerable. so to avoiod the entire situation completely... no more flag-burning.
So are you of the opinion that provoking others to anger should be illegal?
How does that mesh well with one of your next comments about the French loving flag-burners?

Now you have waded into the murky waters of what constitutes "symbolic speech".

Has anyone got a ready definition for just what the hell is "symbolic speech"?

Symbolic (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Asymbolic&btnG=Google+Search) speech (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=define%3Aspeech&btnG=Search).

check this out...

FEDERAL FLAG CODE (http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/flagcode.html)

The difference is in the specific detail, but the structure of the fallacious argument is the same. In order to point out the fallacy of the reasoning it was necessary to make the incorrect conclusion of the resultant argument glaringly apparent.



Now you have waded into the murky waters of what constitutes "symbolic speech". There are some people who will never accept that burning an object is symbolic speech, and others who would willingly cede that to you. You will use the argument from legality to claim that burning a live human being is unconstitutional, as you did in the above snippet. Well, if flag burning is made illegal, the same argument will apply to flags. The question being debated is "should it"?


But that specific detail is a huge one. Thats like saying I ran over the flag by accident (I don't know, maybe it blew into the road) vs. I ran over a child by accident. I'm sure that the distinction between a life and an inanimate object can be generally accepted. Not to mention that the bill of rights says that we have the right to expression, but limits that by saying it cannot impede on the life liberty or property of someone else.

I think "symbolic" speech is pretty well accepted as well. A flag on its own IS a piece of fabric. It is the symbolic value that gets placed with it that makes a flag more than a t-shirt or any other piece of fabric. It is what the flag represents. Symbolic speech is an action that takes the place of speech. Also, as I pointed out, I say speech and include all the rights of the first amendment, which does include expression. Flag burning is a form of expression

This is what I see when I see a flag burner and their supporters.

http://statman.stat.sc.edu/~ogden/slides/beavis.gif

"Yeah! Yeah! FIRE! FIRRRRRRRRRE! *heh heh* BURN! *heh heh* That was cool."

:rolleyes:

check this out...

FEDERAL FLAG CODE (http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/flagcode.html)

What a load of Fascist bullshit.

This is what I see when I see a flag burner and their supporters.

http://statman.stat.sc.edu/~ogden/slides/beavis.gif

"Yeah! Yeah! FIRE! FIRRRRRRRRRE! *heh heh* BURN! *heh heh* That was cool."

:rolleyes:

All the more reason to just IGNORE THEM.

What a load of Fascist bullshit.


and the truth shall set you free!!! <quoting jim carrey here>

might seem like a load of it.. but it is a federal code.. so kiss my ass flag burners... ive said all i can say, and now we know what the laws are...


btw.. read section 4 of the federal flag code (if anything)... b/c i know you dont want to read through the whole thing.

and the truth shall set you free!!! <quoting jim carrey here>

might seem like a load of it.. but it is a federal code.. so kiss my ass flag burners... ive said all i can say, and now we know what the laws are...

Hahahahahahahaha. Yeah, right.

When I have my flag out, I just let it hang. Have I been arrested for not "keeping to code"? Nope. I've also let it touch the ground.

Oh, and I accidentally stepped on it... Twenty-odd times. In the dirt by my sidewalk.

Untrue. It is actually the LAW that states that Americans are required to burn a flag to dispose of it. This is the same law that says we can not have clothing that uses its image, allow it to touch the ground, or fly it at night. Clearly, it us not enforced.
...oops, my bad. But the law doesn't explicitly say one is required to burn it in order to dispose of the flag:

Federal Flag Code Section 4
(k) The Flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

What a load of Fascist bullshit.

How so? It would be Fascist if "Toten Sie die Juden" were somewhere in there ... maybe I'm not at that part yet.

Today i spent a class period watching a movie that has to do with the Texas v. Johnson case of 1989. For those of you who dont know... this is a case where Johnson burned and spit on an American Flag on the steps of the Capitol Building. He was arrested and charged with desecration and disorderly conduct. The case went all the way to the supreme court, at which point he won the case based on free speech.

my question to you: where do we draw the line on free speech.
THe supreme court must take each 'free speech' case independently of another, as they make decisions on a case by case basis (and therefore, flag burning is not illegal in the constitution). There was a 'flag protection act of 1989' brought up by Bush Sr., not sure if it ever took effect, and if it did, if it is still in effect.

You do not "draw the line". The 1st amendment guarantees the right to free speech, even if it's "unpopular speech." [ i.e. the KKK has a right to talk racist crap even if it makes me want to tie their vocal cords... to a tree... o.O]

Also, the law would be unconstitutional if enacted.


Constitutionally, theres nothing banning the act of flag burning.
Legally, if there isnt a law against it, i would be in support of such a law making flag burning illegal

The Constitution is the BASIC law of the land. Therefore, "legally" and "Constitutionally" are the same.


Personally, i think 1 of 3 things should happen:
1. flag burners are lined up and shot
2. flag burners are sent on a year long reality tv show in a third world country, see how they like it there
3. flag burners will be held in place as an american flag full-body tattoo is administered.

1. Sorry but we have due process and freedom from "cruel and unusual punishment"

2. What are you, 10? Civlized people do not torture people because they don't agree.


flag burners, as you can see, really piss me off. They burn the symbol of this country, and all the rights and freedoms that the flag stands for as well. They burn the same symbol that covers the graves of soldiers who died for these assholes to have the right to protest, they insult every living patriotic american, and denegrate the greatness of this country. Honestly, send them to Pakistan or Syria or Saudi Arabia and let them burn a Pakistani flag, or a Syrian flag, or a Saudi Ararbian flag... they would be dead before the flag is completely burned. Protesting is fine, its a civil liberty that we have, but crossing the line into sheer and utter disrespect, is unnecessary and disgusting.


Also disgusting is your lack of knowledge, understanding, appreciation and respect for your Constitution. It guarantees that people can express their unhappiness with their government and ensures that people are treated fairly [optimally].
Furthermore, why do you get to draw the line? Others may think you are crazier than them for wanting to shoot flag burners.


WHAT DO YOU THINK... I need to be able to write a sort of essay on this tomorrow in class arguing the different viewpoints.. and i want to hear everyone elses.

1. The Constitution is the BASIC law of the land. Therefore, "legally" and "Constitutionally" are the same.

2. You do not "draw the line". The 1st amendment guarantees the right to free speech, even if it's "unpopular speech." [ i.e. the KKK has a right to talk racist crap even if it makes me want to tie their vocal cords... to a tree... o.O]

3. [1. Sorry but we have due process and freedom from "cruel and unusual punishment"

2. What are you, 10? Civlized people do not torture people because they don't agree.]

4. Also disgusting is your lack of knowledge, understanding, appreciation and respect for your Constitution. It guarantees that people can express their unhappiness with their government and ensures that people are treated fairly [optimally].
Furthermore, why do you get to draw the line? Others may think you are crazier than them for wanting to shoot flag burners.

You need to learn more about you civil liberties and government and how to understand it. You lack understanding if you'd get so angry about something that embodies the full point of the basic law in the US:

Not being punished for disagreeing.

Note the United States Supreme Court Case Texas v. Johnson (1989).

"The fact that an audience takes offense to certain ideas or expression, the Court found, does not justify prohibitions of speech. "

"[i]f there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

i didn't read through all the rigamaroo, but if it's ok to burn a flag, then it should be ok for me to burn a koran(sp).

and the truth shall set you free!!! <quoting jim carrey here>

might seem like a load of it.. but it is a federal code.. so kiss my ass flag burners... ive said all i can say, and now we know what the laws are...


btw.. read section 4 of the federal flag code (if anything)... b/c i know you dont want to read through the whole thing.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BURNING OF ANY FLAG OF ANY NATION IN ANY NATION SO STOP QUOTING THE FEDERAL LAW AS IT DOES'NT APPLY TO THE WHOLE WORLD.

Now if someone doesn't understand that, god help me

i think you can have an opinion and show it without burning a flag.. there are many protests that happen where flags arent burned... its simple.. the flag is burned in contempt and for the sake of controversy and possibly violence
you can also have an opinion without reading a newspaper, writing one, writing a book, saying a speech, or talking at all. should we ban all these things too?
as for the contempt controversy and possibly violence, same applies with any other form of speech or expression. nevertheless, the are legal.

It guarantees that people can express their unhappiness with their government and ensures that people are treated fairly

Ah, but the flag does not stand for a particular party or government. If you're trying to protest the gov't by burning your flag, you are sadly misinformed.

...oops, my bad. But the law doesn't explicitly say one is required to burn it in order to dispose of the flag:

Federal Flag Code Section 4
(k) The Flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

ah...so it does. Thank you.

Oh, and I think my comment to you may have come off as being more harsh than I meant it to. I did "law" in caps just to point out that burning the flag is promoted by the law in some cases, not to be rude. sorry 'bout that

What a load of Fascist bullshit.

Fascist?

It was passed by both the Senate and House of Representatives... Waaaaay more than the "one man rule" of Fascism.

Hahahahahahahaha. Yeah, right.

When I have my flag out, I just let it hang. Have I been arrested for not "keeping to code"? Nope. I've also let it touch the ground.

Oh, and I accidentally stepped on it... Twenty-odd times. In the dirt by my sidewalk.


hey, you dont get arrested for speeding and theres no cop to see you speed also.. doesnt mean that its legal.. im sure if a federal officer were to walk by you as you trampled your flag, then there might be some sort of problem,.

That is complete bullshit. A democratic country can easily pass a law banning flag burning. People vote to pass the law, therefore it is democratic.

Besides, calling "setting something on fire" the same as "speech" is inane.
only if they change the first ammendment to say "Congress shall make no law abridging.. the freedom of speech... except for flag burning"

you can also have an opinion without reading a newspaper, writing one, writing a book, saying a speech, or talking at all. should we ban all these things too?

What?? That doesn't even make sense. He's saying you can protest without having to resort to the "nuclear option" of burning a flag, and you're talking about banning newspapers. wtf mate

i didn't read through all the rigamaroo, but if it's ok to burn a flag, then it should be ok for me to burn a koran(sp).

As well as it should be okay for me to burn a bible.

i didn't read through all the rigamaroo, but if it's ok to burn a flag, then it should be ok for me to burn a koran(sp).
Certainly, as long as you own said Qu'ran.

It really depends on who is doing the burning. An American citizen shouldn't be allowed to write on much less burn the American flag; in fact it is law. (One which Bush (http://www.dubyaspeak.com/incidents.shtml) doesn't know) But it is perfectly acceptable for anyone else (such as Muslims) to burn the American flag or anyone else's flag. An American burning the American flag, even in the most extreme situations, is unacceptable. The flag represents the country and if one burns their own flag, they are desecrating themselves, their country and what they are trying to accomplish.

You know...there are Islamic American citizens, right?

Also, most of the Middle Eastern countries have laws against burning their flags. They will kill if you try. Therefore, that's one of the reasons the American flag ends up getting burnt in protests with nothing[ or barely anything] to do with the US. They burn our flag in protest that they cannot burn their flags, ironic...

If I see any more personal attacks or flaming in this thread, it will be locked and the offender(s) warned or forumbanned. Douche-bagistan, Potaria, Palenthia, and Belthazaria, this specifically refers to you. I may have missed others as well, so consider this all-inclusive.

If you can't abide by the rules of NationStates, then you will be invited to play elsewhere. Knock it off.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

ah...so it does. Thank you.

Oh, and I think my comment to you may have come off as being more harsh than I meant it to. I did "law" in caps just to point out that burning the flag is promoted by the law in some cases, not to be rude. sorry 'bout that


unbfortunately.. these protestors arent destroying the flag in a dignified way, and for the reason that it no longer "is in a condition fit for emblem"... and if you make the arguement that these guys are burning the flag b/c they love the country so much and want to discard of it in a dignified way... then you are beyond the realm of realism and rationale.

hey, you dont get arrested for speeding and theres no cop to see you speed also.. doesnt mean that its legal.. im sure if a federal officer were to walk by you as you trampled your flag, then there might be some sort of problem,.

Yes, I'll surely be put in prison for stomping on a piece of cloth. The ACLU will back me if such a thing happens.

What I'm saying, is that it's absolutely ridiculous to tell people to treat lifeless items in a certain manner. Having guidelines for flag treatment is like telling people they can't scoot their asses on their own carpet.

It just doesn't make sense!

Certainly, as long as you own said Qu'ran.

It's actually spelled Koran. Just look at any word processing program...

This may suprise some of you. I say it is freedom of speech/freedom to prove you are an asshole. While you're doing that I'd paint stars and stripes all over your house and burn it too.
then you'd be arrested for vandalism, assault, and arson (sp?).

Certainly, as long as you own said Qu'ran.

Does one of you accept the challenge? Burn a Koran as publicly as possible, near one of DC's major monuments/the White House/the Capitol, and tell news stations in advance you're going to do it.

Who's got the brass?

Yes, I'll surely be put in prison for stomping on a piece of cloth. The ACLU will back me if such a thing happens.

What I'm saying, is that it's absolutely ridiculous to tell people to treat lifeless items in a certain manner. Having guidelines for flag treatment is like telling people they can't scoot their asses on their own carpet.

It just doesn't make sense!

idk if youde be put in prison. dont know the punishments... but i wouldnt be surprised if he opened a can of 'woop-ass' on you.

if it was my personal belief that i want everyone with black hair murdered by next sunday, would you protect and respect my personal beliefs...

you see, personal beliefs dont make an action right or wrong, moral or immoral, its the national and state laws and doctrines that decide whats right or not.
I would, it would be consistent with Brandenburg v. Ohio and Virginia v. Black and a dozen other supreme court decisions.

Yes, I'll surely be put in prison for stomping on a piece of cloth. The ACLU will back me if such a thing happens.

What I'm saying, is that it's absolutely ridiculous to tell people to treat lifeless items in a certain manner. Having guidelines for flag treatment is like telling people they can't scoot their asses on their own carpet.

It just doesn't make sense!

Your carpet belongs to you, and you alone. Your country's flag "belongs" to all its citizens.

All this talk of burning flags makes me want to do it too! How about a french flag.. I'm too lazy to find one, so I'll just burn a piece of paper with three rectangular blocks next to each other.

ah...so it does. Thank you.

Oh, and I think my comment to you may have come off as being more harsh than I meant it to. I did "law" in caps just to point out that burning the flag is promoted by the law in some cases, not to be rude. sorry 'bout that
it's cool :)

Does one of you accept the challenge? Burn a Koran as publicly as possible, near one of DC's major monuments/the White House/the Capitol, and tell news stations in advance you're going to do it.

Who's got the brass?
And that has absolutely nothing whatesoever to do with whether it should be legal.

Wow such anger.

I think there is a few things that both sides have missed.

Anti:

The flag is a symbol. It is not us. It is not our ideals.

If the flag is burned do we fail as a civilization? Do our hard fought freedoms die? A flag burning is usually not an attack on the US as a whole. It is usually an attack on the government. Is our government what defines the American people?

WWII was mentioned. Let's not forget that if you talk to the men who fought, they will tell you they went to defend their families, communities, or the country. They didn't go fight for the flag.

If our nation is so easily hurt by the act of the burning of our flag, then do we really deserve to exist?

Pro:

It's one thing to defend the freedom of expression but you also need to acknowledge the peoples concern about what is represented by the flag. Sure it's nothing more then a symbol but it means something physically to some people. It is a "graspable" item for the ideals of the nation.

My families sent several men to WWII. One great-uncle was at the Bulge. His unit got smashed by the Germans and he spent a few days behind the lines as he tried to get back to his own lines. As he said "I was chasing the Germans as they were chasing my division." ;) He spoke of the euphoria when he saw the flag when he finally made it back.

Hell what do I know?

However, the fact we can scream at each other over this issue shows those that died; didn't do so in vain.

idk if youde be put in prison. dont know the punishments... but i wouldnt be surprised if he opened a can of 'woop-ass' on you.

It's simple: If a cop did that to me just for stomping on a piece of cloth, he'd have another thing coming, that's for sure!

Your carpet belongs to you, and you alone. Your country's flag "belongs" to all its citizens.

Is that so? Why is it that you can buy flags at supermarkets, then, hmm? Seems to me that your flag is your property.

Your carpet belongs to you, and you alone. Your country's flag "belongs" to all its citizens.
So if I go out to the corner store and buy a flag, it isn't actually my property?

Ah, but the flag does not stand for a particular party or government. If you're trying to protest the gov't by burning your flag, you are sadly misinformed.

Referring to the US flag, it respresents the country, the good and the bad. Thusly, it would make burning the flag a nice peaceful protest...


....until the "anti-flag burners" arrived.

As much of the patriot that I am, I must stress that imposing any restraint upon freedom of speech, including flag-burning, is a most un-American action. People have the right to be stupid and as Voltaire said, "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." This was one of Jefferson's key inspirations when he wrote the Declaration of Independence and should be held most dear by our ENTIRE citizenry.

Likewise though, as those against flag-burning should respect the right of anti-American protestors, those protestors should respect everything done for them throughout history and should get their skulls screwed on straight. There is no American empire; there is no American fascism, and there is no American oppression. We do not colonize and exploit, we do not require our people sacrifice everything for the sake of the state, and we do not force people to follow any behavioral code beyond that of mutual respect between all citizens. Neither the government nor the people of our great nation believe in destroying the progress made for democracy since its first reformation and rebirth through the union of the 13 colonies against Britain. Flag burning does not cross any line because no line was ever marked, but those who do it should be paid no mind to since all they're doing is looking for attention like "a 10 year old boy whining to his mom over his early bedtime." Those of you who saw the movie mentioned earlier will recall how the columnist for the Washington Times had described Greg Johnson as being just that.

So if you are offended by flag-burners, do what I do. Pay them no attention and no personal respect since they deserve none. Their own integrity caries no weight so neither does their existence.

Then why do we have laws against inciting riots?

Maybe that's the answer. Everytime someone burns a flag, we riot. Then their actions would be illegal as they'd be "inciting a riot".
so long as they have a permit, its legal to assemble in public. you'd be jailed for rioting. its win-win. and if they are denied a permit, it will go to the courts, and guess what they will win based on decades of precedent.

As well as it should be okay for me to burn a bible.
.... own ...

sure Neo, i would own it. sure Potaria, it's ok. but i don't see the nuts in christianity going around kililng ppl just because they "heard" you desecrated the bible.

Your carpet belongs to you, and you alone. Your country's flag "belongs" to all its citizens.

As far as I know, the flag is not public property, like currency, unless purchased with public funds.

Erm. Let me re-write this argument with a slight change:

The US flag represents the right to your own opinion and the right to free speech. Lets say that my opinion is that I should be able to kill my neighbour, and I choose to do so. The government says no, and punishes me. Suddenly, I don't have the right to free speech. the flag can no longer represent freedom of speech because we as a society don't have it.

You are making a leap from having the opinion that you should be able to do something, and actually being able to do something. Free speech might let you SAY you should have the right to kill your neighbour, but it does not grant you that right. It is freedom of speech, not freedom to act out all your opinions.

I also believe that flag-burning is really meaningless in the long run and should not be illegal, by the way. I am just pointing out that this particular argument doesn't hold up.
you infringed another person's rights. no one is doing this to you. perhaps you should read a little bit of case law before interperting the Constitution.

sure Neo, i would own it. sure Potaria, it's ok. but i don't see the nuts in christianity going around kililng ppl just because they "heard" you desecrated the bible.

okay what about the fuss when The Beatles said they were bigger than Jesus

I have to say that burning the Flag is a form of expression....as horrible and disgusting as it is.

But...

There are many other ways of expressing your point then something so extreme. If you are so unhappy with the US, move to Canada. If you have reached the point that you are burning the same symbol that the marines struggled to keep aloft on Iwa Jima (I think that is spelled right) during WWII then maybe your should consider moving.

But this leads to another point. If you have the right to burn the flag as a form of expression what about the rights of those who find it offensive? Maybe I might feel that it is my right of expression to put my boot up a falg burners butt. Maybe I feel that by burning the flag you are insulting my father and grandfathers sacrifices during WWII and Vietnam.

Like I said there are better ways.
what about their rights? no one has infringed upon them. what the hell is your point?

As much of the patriot that I am, I must stress that imposing any restraint upon freedom of speech, including flag-burning, is a most un-American action. People have the right to be stupid and as Voltaire said, "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." This was one of Jefferson's key inspirations when he wrote the Declaration of Independence and should be held most dear by our ENTIRE citizenry.

Likewise though, as those against flag-burning should respect the right of anti-American protestors, those protestors should respect everything done for them throughout history and should get their skulls screwed on straight. There is no American empire; there is no American fascism, and there is no American oppression. We do not colonize and exploit, we do not require our people sacrifice everything for the sake of the state, and we do not force people to follow any behavioral code beyond that of mutual respect between all citizens. Neither the government nor the people of our great nation believe in destroying the progress made for democracy since its first reformation and rebirth through the union of the 13 colonies against Britain. Flag burning does not cross any line because no line was ever marked, but those who do it should be paid no mind to since all they're doing is looking for attention like "a 10 year old boy whining to his mom over his early bedtime." Those of you who saw the movie mentioned earlier will recall how the columnist for the Washington Times had described Greg Johnson as being just that.

So if you are offended by flag-burners, do what I do. Pay them no attention and no personal respect since they deserve none. Their own integrity caries no weight so neither does their existence.

*Cough cough*
Indian genocide and oppression, and internment [reservations]
Oppressed Irish [ "Irish need not apply"...]
Enslaved Africans
"Detained" Japanese [ remember the concentration camps... I mean internment]
Oppressed Asians [ sweat shops of today]
Oppressed homosexuals [come on! They cross racial bounds...]
Oppressed Latinos...

:: blink ::
Yes. There was no oppression.

Burning a flag should NOT be protected by freedom of expression. If you want to clearly state your opposition to a country or its government, fine. Do so with civility.

How does burning a flag accomplish that in any form? It's closer to saying, "I HATE this country and I want it to meet the same fate as Carthage," which is closer to treasonous speech than anything else.
the only thing that could be construed as treasonous speech is threatening the government (case is shaky at best) or plotting against the government. (telling someone to pick up a gun at x location, assasinate the president at y time and z place).
saying you dont like the government is not treasonous under any law in this country.

I understand where people who support Flag Burning are coming from. They're right in a sense that it is a way of expression about their government. However I think the practice should be illegal for the simple fact I think burning the American Flag is disrespectful to those who gave their lives to keep our country, our way of life and our world free. My Grandfather served in WWII in Europe. He was a P.O.W. and he risked his life to free others and to make sure America was not in harms way from the Third Reich. All of the soldiers who fought for our freedom from the days of the Revolutionary War, to today the War on Terror may go un-named but their sacrifice is shown proudly in the Stars and Stripes. Find another way of showing your anger towards Uncle Sam, leave the flag alone, too many men and women lost their lives to protect the rights that the flag represents. It would really be like disrespecting the dead...
the First Ammendment doesn't say "freedom of speech, unless its disrespectful."

Treason is always, always wrong. If you claim the benefits of belonging to a particular group (a country), then betray that group, they would be quite justified in wreaking bloody vengeance upon you.
Phew. good thing flag burning isn't treason.

However I think the practice should be illegal for the simple fact I think burning the American Flag is disrespectful to those who gave their lives to keep our country, our way of life and our world free.

People have different ideas of whats respectful and disrespectful. I, for example, might find it perfectly acceptable burp in public. However, those hardcore manners-fanatics might disagree.

Its the same as flag-burning, just, you know, in a larger sense. The government really shouldn't pass laws on what they think is respectful and not.

True, people will look, but they will also be disgusted and repelled. The point of a protest is to change something. If you're making people mad, you won't be accomplishing your goal and you may as well have stayed home that day.

It's a lot like an annoying ad on tv. People say, "Well, you remember the ad well, right? That's the whole point of advertising." Wrong! The point of advertising is to get you to buy their product. If there's an ad that annoys me to the point where I think, "Those buggers are pissing me off so much -- I'm never going to buy anything from them again," then the money they're spending on that ad is actually losing them business.

And bon appetit.
so you believe the government should dictate what the best forms of protest are and only allow specific kinds of protests? what if the government said, you can only protest in the middle of an empty field, not in any cities because that would annoy people and hurt your cause.
my point is, its not the governments place to tell people how they can or cannot freely express themselves.

So if you are offended by the flag-burners, do what I do. Pay them no attention and no personal respect since they deserve none. Their own integrity caries no weight so neither does their existence.



You just negated your stance of freedom of speech.

Dismissing people in such a way is the same level as passing laws to protect the flag.....

a citizen buring their flag is basicly saying "down with the government".
This is protected speech to say it outloud anyway. why is saying it symbolically suddenly not protected?