NationStates Jolt Archive

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?

as im white and half german i can safely say, nope. Why should later generations feel shame for the things that people many years ago did?

Hi Sinuhue.

No, I don't feel guilty. I agknowledge the fact that people of my "race" have commited some attrocities, but I personally did nothing. Hell, my ancestors didn't do anything. They were in Italy and didn't own slaves. Maybe they did during the Roman empire days, but that's too far back to remember.

What race am I? What is white?

I put down at least 12 different answers on my census form - it was very confusing.

as I had no control over what my ancestors did I feel no shame for their actions

however I do have a responsibility to ensure that such actions are not repeated in the future and as such I do my utmost to make sure that I do not suport politically, morally or financially any organisation that emulates the actions I dont approve of

No. My family came to the United States in the 1920s.

I took sociology, it leaves all white middle-class males feeling slightly guilty.

What race am I? What is white?

I put down at least 12 different answers on my census form - it was very confusing.
Conceptually, I'm from so many races, I believe that I might have to apologize to everyone, and then they would have to apologize to me.

Being British, I feel guilty about many parts of our history. As the position Britain is in to day is not down to good honest hardwork but the use of slave labour, treachery and conquest.

This topic reminds me of a T-shirt I saw on the Internet:

"Native Americans Fighting Terrorism Since 1492"

as im white and half german i can safely say, nope. Why should later generations feel shame for the things that people many years ago did?
Well, the only reason I could justify is that if you are still part (and a willing supporter) of a system that perpetuates the violence (and I mean more than physical violence, I mean racism, sexism, poverty etc) BEGUN by your ancestors, then your acts are simply an extension of the acts of your forefathers. Perhaps in this case, some guilt is needed, and may effect a change in your attitudes to the better. If, to the contrary, you are not perpetuating such acts or such systems, I don't think guilt will really get you anywhere.

Why should people nowadays apologise for something they had no involvement in (like maybe the Holocaust)? Why should white people apologise for things like the slave trade, which was, at the time, widely accepted as the norm?

I do not feel guilt because of the actions of my race, gender, or nationality.

Those things aren't supposed to define a person, remember?

Governments that were responsible, however, have a duty to rectify crimes of the past.

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?Guilt - No
Shame - Yes
A feeling that as much ought to be done as possible to redress the wrongs - Yes
How much is possible? - Unfortunatley, not much.

What race am I? What is white?

I put down at least 12 different answers on my census form - it was very confusing.
Race is a load of crap, but generally, people who identify as 'white' are the people I consider white.

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?

Nope I refuse to live in shame for something I had no part in and I refuse to blame others for the same thing (I.E holding a grudge against Germans)

Yo son I'm black

I took sociology, it leaves all white middle-class males feeling slightly guilty.
Why?

(Seems like a simple question, but it really isn't. Do you personally feel any guilt? If so, why?)

*guilt free & proud white guy*

Not in my opinion. Sure, people who looked like me killed millions of people. I haven't. Is it my fault? Not as far as I can tell.

Nope, not in the least. I had as much to do with European enslavement of black Africans as I did with the Japanese use of "comfort women" or the burning of the Library of Alexandria, or which shirt you wore today. Feeling guilty for something over which one had zero control is simply ridiculous at best.

Not really... My ancestry (100% from England, later migrated to America) might have been among the more barbaric looking in all of history. I personally had no part in it. I therefore do not feel guilt because the actions of my ancestry I will not let shape me.

What must be considered is whether the ends justify the means, wether the ends were good, and wether the means were justified.

The means in my ancestry's case I believe to be unjustifiable.

no i dont feel guilty

a person should only feel guilty over bad things that happen that they had some responsibility for

it is, however, important to understand that there are people in the world who still suffer from wrongs that were done in the past. you CAN feel guilty that you let those things continue without acknowledgement or repair.

Conceptually, I'm from so many races, I believe that I might have to apologize to everyone, and then they would have to apologize to me.
Just apologize to yourself and you should be fine.

Guilt? None!
As terrible the atrocities those were, I don't feel the least bit guilty for what some asshole I had no control over did.

Why should people nowadays apologise for something they had no involvement in (like maybe the Holocaust)? Why should white people apologise for things like the slave trade, which was, at the time, widely accepted as the norm?
Good question. Did the use of slavery somehow give your people an advantage over others? Do you now profit from that advantage? If so, can you simply shrug your shoulders and say, "Other people did this, not me, and if I profit from it, so what?" If someone commits a crime, and you profit from it, does that make you less culpable simply because you did not perpetrate the act? How long does a thing have to be in the past before you can honestly say that it has no effect on you? (when we know that history is not separate from us...but rather the events that have shaped our present)

Governments that were responsible, however, have a duty to rectify crimes of the past.
Governments are made up of people. Governments shift their character depending on the people in power. Is the government of x nation in 1800 the same as the government in the same nation in 2005? What has changed? Can a government be held culpable SEPARATE from the people that make up the nation?

Why?

(Seems like a simple question, but it really isn't. Do you personally feel any guilt? If so, why?)

Just reading the textbooks they goes on about how everyone who isn't middle-class white and male is disadvantaged *shudder* it does make me feel rather bad about what I am. Usually I just say 'fuck it, we're all human' but it does hang around.

Good question. Did the use of slavery somehow give your people an advantage over others? Do you now profit from that advantage? If so, can you simply shrug your shoulders and say, "Other people did this, not me, and if I profit from it, so what?" If someone commits a crime, and you profit from it, does that make you less culpable simply because you did not perpetrate the act? How long does a thing have to be in the past before you can honestly say that it has no effect on you? (when we know that history is not separate from us...but rather the events that have shaped our present)
We can and try to negate the social costs (discrimination) that puts others at a disadvantage but reparation for things like slavery are 1) not equitable to those now 2) do not really have the ability to reperate things like freedom and life’s

What we got to do is work towards giving them a fair shot to compete and excel in the world today

Sure, people who looked like me killed millions of people.

People of all shades have killed millions of people. Genghis Khan killed millions. The Aztecs killed and cannibalized their own. Blacks are slaughtering each other in Africa even today. Ever hear of Rwanda?

Stop blaming Whitey and use your brain. You liberals believe in Darwins theory. Whites killed the Indians because our civilizations came into conflict. Ours was stronger, we won. If the tables we're turned, the Indians & Aztecs would've went to Europe and wiped out the white folks. Get a grip.

you CAN feel guilty that you let those things continue without acknowledgement or repair.
Ah...a good point. What kinds of examples are you thinking of?

Yeah. Others have mentioned the flaw in using 'white' as a blanket term. I mean, sure, my skin is white, but ethnically I'm so convoluted. I mean, my father's family is of English, German, Swedish, and Spanish ancestry, but my grandparents his parents (my grandparents) were born in Argentina. My mom claims Irish and German ancestry. So ... they were white and so am I, but in some circles, my dad's side of the family is viewed as "hispanic" just because many of them were born speaking Spanish, and my mom's side of the family was more often victimised (British involvement in Ireland), I don't know where I'm supposed to stand on the guilt-scale.

I feel more guilt or shame for the actions of the human race than I do for any particular group I just happened to be born into.

When will people realise that what race you're from, what country you were born in, and what your parents or ancestors did has absolutely no bearing on you as a person.

A Patriot is one of the most horrible things a person can be as it only leads to the hate of another country.

And of course, you weren't participating when your ancestors killed people, enslaved people, etc.

I'm a Bi-racial person and slavery is a sensative area for me. I was raised in mostly an "African American" fashion, so slavery is just something I can't forget and something that should never be forgotten. I don't think caucasions today should feel guilty for what their ancestors did, but don't act like it didn't happen and don't act like it doesn't effect us today (also don't act like racism is non-existant). Various companies wouldn't EXIST today if it weren't for slavery.

So my answer is this: You shouldn't feel guilty and it's not right for people to try to make you feel guilty or responsible, but just be a bit more sensative and understanding about it.

I don't even know my ancestral background... so no. I don't feel guilty for any of it, because it was not done, or sanctioned by me, and I had no capability to stop it. I could have came from anywhere...

Good question. Did the use of slavery somehow give your people an advantage over others? Do you now profit from that advantage? If so, can you simply shrug your shoulders and say, "Other people did this, not me, and if I profit from it, so what?" If someone commits a crime, and you profit from it, does that make you less culpable simply because you did not perpetrate the act? How long does a thing have to be in the past before you can honestly say that it has no effect on you? (when we know that history is not separate from us...but rather the events that have shaped our present)
The law is relatively uniform on this, at least where I live. You see, if something you own gets stolen and sold to the pawnshop, the pawnshop is not required to give it back to you. They can if they want to, but if they don't feel like it, they don't have to. I think the comparison is pretty interesting.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's how the system works.

People of all shades have killed millions of people. Genghis Khan killed millions. The Aztecs killed and cannibalized their own. Blacks are slaughtering each other in Africa even today. Ever hear of Rwanda?

Stop blaming Whitey and use your brain. You liberals believe in Darwins theory. Whites killed the Indians because our civilizations came into conflict. Ours was stronger, we won. If the tables we're turned, the Indians & Aztecs would've went to Europe and wiped out the white folks. Get a grip.
I think you have made the erroneous assumption that Andaluciae was claiming that ONLY whites have perpetuated atrocities. No where in the original quote is that claim actually made.

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?
Well... I don't think she has reason to feel guilt, but obviously she does... she feels she has sufficient reason, and so what I think doesn't really matter.

I can empathize, though. I remember sitting on a park swing when I was about 8 years old, feeling the weight of the entire Western world on my small shoulders. I had only just learned that World War II had ended with a bang. I think time and understanding are the only things that will expunge such feelings --understanding the reasons for it happening, and understanding oneself.

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?
Acknowledgement is very important, almost as important as forgivance.

Did the use of slavery somehow give your people an advantage over others?

We had an advantage BEFORE slavery. That's why we were the enslaver, not the slave.

My family traces its roots back to colonial Virginia, Georgia and North Carolina (depending on mom or dad's side).. Moms family kept slaves until the Civil War, and they paid the price in that half the male members died in the war, and the family was reduced from wealth to poverty in a single generation and didn't return to Middle Class afluence until my Mom's generation.

My fathers family also was Southern, but of more humble circumstances, and fought Indians (Cherokees) until the Removal and Trail of Tears, and descendants fought in the Civil War under General Lee (my direct ancestor served the entire war and had 13 kids afterwards). They were relatively poor farmers until the Depression Era, with my Grandmother and Grandfather being the first family to reach Middle class afluence

So my ancestors were the ones (along with lots of others) who conquered North America from the Indians, and kept slaves until war forced them not to.

Do I feel guilty? No

My family paid a direct price for slavery that took generations to recover from. Members of my family according to records were killed by Indians. So it pretty much worked out. They paid the price in blood to get where they are.

I have some Cherokee blood in my veins as well. Cherokee Indians kept slaves to by the way, which they purchased from Whites. The Cherokees also fought a bitter war against settlers in Georgia during both the American Revolution and French and Indian Wars and were responsible for some rather hidious massacres.

History is seldom simple.

I don't feel guilty about such things, but I do feel ashamed. I always feel ashamed when I hear about a fellow countryman doing something unspeakable or ghastly.

When will people realise that what race you're from, what country you were born in, and what your parents or ancestors did has absolutely no bearing on you as a person.

That's a nice sentiment, but one that completely ignores the reality of culture. Of course the country you're born into, what your parents or ancestors did, what colour you happen to be ALL has a bearing on you as a person. They help shape your personal culture and your identity. Ultimately however, the choice in terms of a belief system is yours, but your choices are not made in some sort of cultural vacume. Imagine that you are born into poverty, into a class of people that are reviled, discriminated against and segregated. Does that really have no bearing on who you are and who you may become?



And of course, you weren't participating when your ancestors killed people, enslaved people, etc.
No, but again...are you reaping the rewards of these actions now, in the present? If so, are you willing to recognise that? And what could you possibly do to change this?

Governments are made up of people. Governments shift their character depending on the people in power. Is the government of x nation in 1800 the same as the government in the same nation in 2005? What has changed? Can a government be held culpable SEPARATE from the people that make up the nation?

That is true, the actions of government do reflect the will of the people, so I do share some of the responsibility of past government actions.

However, the only guilt or shame I should feel should come from not working to make the situation right.

I don't feel guilty for what my ancestors did or did not do. I'm guilty enough about the things I've done. I don't need anymore.

The law is relatively uniform on this, at least where I live. You see, if something you own gets stolen and sold to the pawnshop, the pawnshop is not required to give it back to you. They can if they want to, but if they don't feel like it, they don't have to. I think the comparison is pretty interesting.

Whereas, where I live, the pawnshop absolutely has to give it back to you if you can prove that it is yours, and that you did not yourself sell it to them. So I guess the comparison would break down here:).

People of all shades have killed millions of people. Genghis Khan killed millions. The Aztecs killed and cannibalized their own. Blacks are slaughtering each other in Africa even today. Ever hear of Rwanda?

Stop blaming Whitey and use your brain. You liberals believe in Darwins theory. Whites killed the Indians because our civilizations came into conflict. Ours was stronger, we won. If the tables we're turned, the Indians & Aztecs would've went to Europe and wiped out the white folks. Get a grip.

What next you'll be calling Native Americans savages! And just because all people of all does not make it right and therefore we cannot skake the shame and responsibility!

Being British, I feel guilty about many parts of our history. As the position Britain is in to day is not down to good honest hardwork but the use of slave labour, treachery and conquest.

This topic reminds me of a T-shirt I saw on the Internet:

"Native Americans Fighting Terrorism Since 1492"


What a weak-willed piece of shit you are. Yeah, you're happy to take all of the benefits of being a British citizen, benefits that were bought for us by the sacrifices of our ancestors, but you're so fucking politically correct that you want to have your cake and eat it by feeling "guilty" about what had to be done in the past in order to win freedoms and resources you enjoy today.

The world is for the strong to take and hold, you stupid wimp, and the rank hypocrisy of your "guilt" is a manifestation of your self-indulgent moralism rather than a real or valid criticism of what Britain has had to do in the past.

Go hug a tree, save a kitten or something revoltingly hippieish - just don't go about spouting your repulsive defeatist crap.

I personally do not feel guilty about things other people did, whether I am related to them or not. I do not know for sure when my family immigrated to the USA, but I think some of my father's ancestors may have been in the civil war. I don't think they owned slaves, but who knows? We don't know our ancestors names back more than my Great-great-grandfather, and we don't know anymore about him than his name, and a tintype. Also, my great-grandmother supported the Nazi party, and that was her choice to do so. People should not feel guilty about decisions other people make. Everyone must decide their own consience, but then it's their burden to bear, not their relatives.

What I have noticed, though, is that people can wear a Native Pride shirt, or Black Pride shirt, or a gay pride shirt, and people think its okay (which it should be) but if I were to wear a White Pride shirt, they would call me a racist (and that should be okay, also)...People expect "whites" to feel guilty, and I feel there is great pressure from the government (ie schools) to feel guilty about being white.

I can definitely say that I do not feel guilty.

Here's my reason ...

Let's, for the sake of simplicity, define all wrongdoers as assholes. Granted that everyone has probably been an asshole at some point in their life, there are more profuse and recurrent assholes in existence.

Furthermore, the role of asshole is one of equal opportunity. In other words, there are assholes of all varieties in this world and the characterictic of being a asshole is not limited by sex, race, creed, religion, etc.

Some people may be bigger assholes than others. But if one implies that, because a few really big assholes were of a certain race, that race, itself, is criminal, then that person is simply being racist.

That is why I don't feel guilty, because I think racism is an inherently flawed ideal.

Well, white people have treated other whites just as bad. I mean take slavary, of course I don't want to suggest slavery wasn't hell for blacks, but the whites are the ones that fought the most bloody war in American history over it so that kind of blances it out some.

You don't need to say, "Whites did this..." or "Blacks did this..." or whomever, because in the end it's all "People do this..." Not only is blaming the current generation rediculous, but for one group of people to say that they deserve some kind of retribution is straight up audacious! Every race has commited atrocities to someone, even if it's each other.

I'm Catholic, Italian, German, Irish, Dutch, and Arabic -- I'm a combination of people with short tempers. Watch out.

What a weak-willed piece of shit you are. Yeah, you're happy to take all of the benefits of being a British citizen, benefits that were bought for us by the sacrifices of our ancestors, but you're so fucking politically correct that you want to have your cake and eat it by feeling "guilty" about what had to be done in the past in order to win freedoms and resources you enjoy today.

The world is for the strong to take and hold, you stupid wimp, and the rank hypocrisy of your "guilt" is a manifestation of your self-indulgent moralism rather than a real or valid criticism of what Britain has had to do in the past.

Go hug a tree, save a kitten or something revoltingly hippieish - just don't go about spouting your repulsive defeatist crap.

Aww, you seem cranky. Did your mommy forget to put you down for your afternoon nap?

We had an advantage BEFORE slavery. That's why we were the enslaver, not the slave.
And slavery did nothing to enhance those advantages?

Are advantages inherently positive then? Because I believe you are talking about 'superior' weaponry and the like when you discuss these particular advantages. Does might make right?

What next you'll be calling Native Americans savages!

They Injins were savages.

What a weak-willed piece of shit you are. Yeah, you're happy to take all of the benefits of being a British citizen, benefits that were bought for us by the sacrifices of our ancestors, but you're so fucking politically correct that you want to have your cake and eat it by feeling "guilty" about what had to be done in the past in order to win freedoms and resources you enjoy today.

The world is for the strong to take and hold, you stupid wimp, and the rank hypocrisy of your "guilt" is a manifestation of your self-indulgent moralism rather than a real or valid criticism of what Britain has had to do in the past.

Go hug a tree, save a kitten or something revoltingly hippieish - just don't go about spouting your repulsive defeatist crap.

I will go and hug a tree thank you very much knowing that I am strong enough to take the blame for what others did and not hide behind the veil of history like your supposed strong self.

What a weak-willed piece of shit you are. Yeah, you're happy to take all of the benefits of being a British citizen, benefits that were bought for us by the sacrifices of our ancestors, but you're so fucking politically correct that you want to have your cake and eat it by feeling "guilty" about what had to be done in the past in order to win freedoms and resources you enjoy today.

The world is for the strong to take and hold, you stupid wimp, and the rank hypocrisy of your "guilt" is a manifestation of your self-indulgent moralism rather than a real or valid criticism of what Britain has had to do in the past.

Go hug a tree, save a kitten or something revoltingly hippieish - just don't go about spouting your repulsive defeatist crap.
I suggest you express your opinions in a manner which does not devolve into making personal attacks and assumptions. Perhaps a quick perusal of the NS General guidelines could help you out in terms of respecting boundaries during a debate?

<snip> I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?
I do not have any guilt for any action I did not commit. Period. Conquests (which is what the Euro-migration across the Americas was) are inherently unfair on the conqured - the damage incurred by the Amerinds was not really any different than that incurred by tribe after tribe throughout human history conquered by another group.

That's not to say that it was any less devistating to them, or that the extant residue of that conquest (reservations et.al.) isn't noxious and soul-destroying (I grew up just outside of the Wind River Indian Reservation in Wyoming) but it is no reason for ME to feel guilty. (Congress & the BIA - who can do somthing about it but don't, OTOH...)

BTW, I agree that Race is a farce. To me, "tolerating" someone because of their "Race" is pernicious. If you have to "tolerate" something, it means you don't like it - and not liking someone simply because of "Race" is evil.

People of all shades have killed millions of people. Genghis Khan killed millions. The Aztecs killed and cannibalized their own. Blacks are slaughtering each other in Africa even today. Ever hear of Rwanda?

Stop blaming Whitey and use your brain. You liberals believe in Darwins theory. Whites killed the Indians because our civilizations came into conflict. Ours was stronger, we won. If the tables we're turned, the Indians & Aztecs would've went to Europe and wiped out the white folks. Get a grip.

Excuse me but I believe The Rwanadan Genocide was started by the Belgians. The Belgians came into Rwanda and fucked them up and took over then enslaved the population and used a method to seperate and classify the "european-looking" Rwandans from the "Ugly-looking" Rwandans. When they abruptly left the country they put the favored ones in charge, thus starting the whole shitstorm.

They Injins were savages.

Yes, of course, they were so savage that to touch someone with a coup stick was more honourable than to kill them.

Most of my ancestors (as far as I know) were Irish, so although that means I'm white, My ancestors (at least in comparitively recent history, i.e. last few hundred years) were to busy being oppressed to oppress anyone else.

Also Homo sapiens have been around for tens of thousands of years, which means that it is very likely that everyone has ancestors who colluded in or actively carried out what we today call 'crimes against humanity'. Especially since most of our ancestors history is not known to us. Unless you are responsible yourself, then it's irrelevant how long ago your ancestors did 'bad things', it is not something that you are guilty or responsible for.

What I have noticed, though, is that people can wear a Native Pride shirt, or Black Pride shirt, or a gay pride shirt, and people think its okay (which it should be) but if I were to wear a White Pride shirt, they would call me a racist (and that should be okay, also)
Unfortunately, the term 'White Pride' has connotations which differ from terms like, 'Native Pride' and so on. You can't escape that, and you have to assume that people are going to associate 'White Pride' with racism. The swastika had relatively innocuous origins as well...but it has become a very negative symbol. C'est la vie.

In terms of 'feeling guilty for being white'....I don't think this is true. To me, the guilt should stem from, as others have said, from not doing anything NOW to correct injusticies and power imbalances that may unfairly advantage you over others. For example...had you been born a white South African during apartheid...you would have had no hand in creating the apartheid system, but if you complacently went along with it, and profitted from it, then I would say some guilt would be warranted.

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?

Well,let's see. I've never had Nazis in my family, I'm a direct descendant of an English nobleman who married a Native American 'princess', so, guess I can't feel guilty about that, no one in my family ever owned slaves or condoned it.

Why should I feel guilty about the atrocties of a select group from a given ethnicity that I had nothing to do with? It's the ones who were involved that're the guilty parties. I'm very much against the whole "Sins of the father" crap.

I feel more guilt or shame for the actions of the human race than I do for any particular group I just happened to be born into.Shouldn't we all? Shouldn't we all?
[/rhetorical question]

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Yes, of course, they were so savage that to touch someone with a coup stick was more honourable than to kill them.

I don't care how many people they touched with their coup twigs. They killed each other left and right too. They enslaved each other. The had all sorts of bizarre sexual practices. They were heathens.

Well, white people have treated other whites just as bad.
Well 'white' has only really been a semi-cohesive desriptor in the past thirty or forty years (if that)...before that, 'whites' were divided into competing ethnicities (Polish, Italian, French, Spanish, German, Ukrainian, Irish etc) and capable of discrimination based on a wide range of criteria aside from skin colour, but anyway....

People of all shades have killed millions of people. Genghis Khan killed millions. The Aztecs killed and cannibalized their own. Blacks are slaughtering each other in Africa even today. Ever hear of Rwanda?

Stop blaming Whitey and use your brain. You liberals believe in Darwins theory. Whites killed the Indians because our civilizations came into conflict. Ours was stronger, we won. If the tables we're turned, the Indians & Aztecs would've went to Europe and wiped out the white folks. Get a grip.

This is slightly off topic, but do you even know what 'Darwin's theory' is?

It's true that no one race has a greater capacity to lack humanity and commit atrocities than any other, and it is not the fault of later generations that these acts happened. But it's sick to try and justify what happened as you have. (and a very confused justification in this case)

I don't care how many people they touched with their coup twigs. They killed each other left and right too. They enslaved each other. The had all sorts of bizarre sexual practices. They were heathens.

You are obviously wrapped up in ones own ignorance not to see what a great culture that the Native Americans had. And you talk of bizzare sex practices, just look on the web I bet you are almost gurranteed to find weird practices practiced by "Whitey".

Yes, of course, they were so savage that to touch someone with a coup stick was more honourable than to kill them.I don't care how many people they touched with their coup twigs. They killed each other left and right too. They enslaved each other. The had all sorts of bizarre sexual practices. They were heathens.
Please people, don't start talking about my people (native Americans) as either the 'noble savages' or the 'heathen savages'...we are neither angels nor devils. We are just as capable of kindness as we are of brutality...as are all humans.

Why should people nowadays apologise for something they had no involvement in (like maybe the Holocaust)? Why should white people apologise for things like the slave trade, which was, at the time, widely accepted as the norm?
we're not trying to say we shouldn't apologise, i think people should in some cases, but also make sure the things dont happen again, like the fire bombing of dresden.
but i do think taht some people will feel guilt , but not always nessarcery, you may hate you ansestors for what they did.


on a note, some guy who desecrated a nazi war memorial that BNP members made, was taken to court. luckily it was quashed.
but he did it because, those members of the BNP;
didnt apologise for the holocaust,
deny it completely
and did a nazi salute in front of jewish people and war survivors.
they should have apologised, but being nazis they didnt.

another note, GO native people Of north america

Please people, don't start talking about my people as either the 'noble savages' or the 'ignoble savages'...we are neither angels nor devils. We are just as capable of kindness as we are of brutality...as are all humans.

My point exactly as how can we call others savages when you look at what our race does, as William Golding puts across in Lord of the Flies, it is in human nature to be evil.

Please people, don't start talking about my people as either the 'noble savages' or the 'ignoble savages'...we are neither angels nor devils. We are just as capable of kindness as we are of brutality...as are all humans.

They're my people as well and I don't appreciate the sheer ignorance people are displaying here. Just when my day was idiot-free, I had to see this racist shit. I can't BELIEVE someone blamed the Rwandans as the sole reason of the genocide. That right there is just stupid.

They were heathens.

heathens according to you?

I am sure someone of a different faith to yours would consider you a heathen

being a heathen is a matter of perspective

not going to comment on the rest of your inflammatry and ill informed post as to be honest it isnt worth the effort

My point exactly as how can we call others savages when you look at what our race does, as William Golding puts across in Lord of the Flies, it is in human nature to be evil.
I dispute that, but I haven't written a famous book about it yet:).

just look on the web I bet you are almost gurranteed to find weird practices practiced by "Whitey".

Yes, but they aren't embraced by our civilization. Indian culture embraced and celebrated homosexuality and child molestation, just to name two.

Of course, you're wrapped up in the whole romantic fictionalized account of Indian culture. You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in your liberal face. if you went back in time and lived with those heathen savages you'd be begging God to bring you back, fool.

I dispute that, but I haven't written a famous book about it yet:).

Hopefully some day I'll be able to read it. Also just because it is human nature to be evil it doesn't mean that we have to result to that, as shown by the characters Simon, Piggy and Ralph.

Yes, but they aren't embraced by our civilization. Indian culture embraced and celebrated homosexuality and child molestation, just to name two.

Of course, you're wrapped up in the whole romantic fictionalized account of Indian culture. You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in your liberal face. if you went back in time and lived with those heathen savages you'd be begging God to come back, fool.
I was about to reply to this when my Troll Sensor went off. Damn thing was on a time delay....

You are obviously wrapped up in ones own ignorance not to see what a great culture that the Native Americans had. And you talk of bizzare sex practices, just look on the web I bet you are almost gurranteed to find weird practices practiced by "Whitey".

bizarre sexual practices and fetishes are an equal opportunity pasttime any any racial group or society... its just that the sanctions against them vary

Some Native American Tribes had very advanced social systems with many admirable traits. Others were cannibals (Karankawa Indians of Texas), and others were as apt to conquer their neighbors as the Mongols (Comanche Indians and Sioux Indians).

The 'noble savage' was a myth created by a French idealist who never even visited North America. People are people, they act according to their socialization and the morality of the time and place they live in.

At the time the Americas were conquered, it was acceptable to conquer them if you were European. As was it acceptable to steal women and slaughter captives if you were a Native American (in most all cases), often simply because you could.

Yes, but they aren't embraced by our civilization. Indian culture embraced and celebrated homosexuality and child molestation, just to name two.

Of course, you're wrapped up in the whole romantic fictionalized account of Indian culture. You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in your liberal face. if you went back in time and lived with those heathen savages you'd be begging God to bring you back, fool.

I can't tell if you are being serious or not. If you're kidding then you've crossed the line, if you aren't kidding then there's no hope for you.

Hopefully some day I'll be able to read it. Also just because it is human nature to be evil it doesn't mean that we have to result to that, as shown by the characters Simon, Piggy and Ralph.
Nah, nah --you worded it better the first way, a few posts up. It is in human nature to be evil; it is not the be-all of human nature, nor is it in any way the defining characteristic. Gotta watch that.

Yes, but they aren't embraced by our civilization. Indian culture embraced and celebrated homosexuality and child molestation, just to name two.

Of course, you're wrapped up in the whole romantic fictionalized account of Indian culture. You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in your liberal face. if you went back in time and lived with those heathen savages you'd be begging God to bring you back, fool.

Well I didn't see that coming from a mile off.

I could respond by telling you that you're too wrapped up in a romantic fictionalised account of Christian culture, but you probably wouldn't believe me. Remember that Homosexuality has only ever been decried by the major religions, and even then not all of them. Let's elaborate. The people of various Germanic tribes had sacrifices. The people of Carthage had human sacrifice and Child prostitution, allegedly, though this may be a fabrication of the Romans. In Greece, homosexuality and paedophilia were the norm, in Rome, group orgies were commonplace.

So if anyone is a savage, it's everyone.

Yes, but they aren't embraced by our civilization. Indian culture embraced and celebrated homosexuality and child molestation, just to name two.

Of course, you're wrapped up in the whole romantic fictionalized account of Indian culture. You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in your liberal face. if you went back in time and lived with those heathen savages you'd be begging God to bring you back, fool.

You sound like you have a respectable, unbiased source to back up those claims. Let's see it.

Yes, but they aren't embraced by our civilization. Indian culture embraced and celebrated homosexuality and child molestation, just to name two.

Of course, you're wrapped up in the whole romantic fictionalized account of Indian culture. You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in your liberal face. if you went back in time and lived with those heathen savages you'd be begging God to bring you back, fool.

I was unaware that prior to the 15th century, the whole of the Americas were populated by a single homogenous culture, every member of which acted in the way you describe. I assume you have evidence to back this up, in which case I'm impressed, I'd be very interested to see how you prove this claim given that people have live in the Americas for more than 10 thousand years.

As was it acceptable to steal women and slaughter captives if you were a Native American (in most all cases), often simply because you could.
From other Native Nations...keep in mind in this discussion that native peoples did not exist as a homogenous group. We were, in essense, like the warring states of Europe, and as apt to trade with, betray, form alliances, break them, make war on, have peace with etc as Europeans were.

Nah, nah --you worded it better the first way, a few posts up. It is in human nature to be evil; it is not the be-all of human nature, nor is it in any way the defining characteristic. Gotta watch that.
Thanks for the correction, what you put is what I meant to say.

I don't feel guilty for anything I didn't personally do.

You sound like you have a respectable, unbiased source to back up those claims. Let's see it.

I was gonna ask for one. it did seem so much like there was a scientific source to hear it, eh?

oh yeah, how could I forget! Georgian England/Britain. Homosexuality and prostitution were so commonly practised that people didn't notice. The men wore as much make-up as the women... children were abducted and forced into prostitution....
really... it happens everywhere. Even in supposedly christian countries.

Yes, but they aren't embraced by our civilization. Indian culture embraced and celebrated homosexuality and child molestation, just to name two.

Of course, you're wrapped up in the whole romantic fictionalized account of Indian culture. You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in your liberal face. if you went back in time and lived with those heathen savages you'd be begging God to bring you back, fool.

Hmmmmmm, would I now! Shame i can't go back and prove you wrong.

Hmmmmmm, would I now! Shame i can't go back and prove you wrong.
Well, don't worry...this Injun still practices kinky sex, though I'm sorry, child molestation is right out.

I was about to reply to this when my Troll Sensor went off. Damn thing was on a time delay....

LOL! So clever..

I'm not a troll. Someone disagreeing with you isn't called trolling.

My grandfather was 1/4 Cherokee. So that makes me by blood some tiny percentage Indian, but that doesn't blind me from what Indian culture was like. It isn't good. It isn't romantic. For the most part it was ugly and cruel.

As a person of very mixed heritage, I must say that I don't believe anyone has anything to apologize for unless they, themselves have done something wrong. Although my Grandmother was very racist and used almost every profanity known in her everyday speech, I refuse to apologize for that. It was not me, it was my family.
Besides that, there is discrimination everywhere...there always will be, somewhat, and living in the Bible Belt, I am way too used to it to let it bother me, really. Sure, I stand up against it, I protest, I do what I can...but not so much that I will make someone apologize for something that they didn't do, nor could they help.
Ridiculous.

LOL! So clever..

I'm not a troll. Someone disagreeing with you isn't called trolling.

My grandfather was 1/4 Cherokee. So that makes me by blood some tiny percentage Indian, but that doesn't blind me from what Indian culture was like. It isn't good. It isn't romantic. For the most part it was ugly and cruel.

And good old fashioned European and American culture isn't?

Yeah I think I read somewhere that they both danced and played amoungst a field of cotton candy while respecting the land of natives and didn't kill or rape a single one of them. They also made candycanes for the little Native American children and didn't bring diseases over. They were perfect in every way, shape and form. Do you get your facts from the same source?

My grandfather was 1/4 Cherokee. So that makes me by blood some tiny percentage Indian, but that doesn't blind me from what Indian culture was like. It isn't good. It isn't romantic. For the most part it was ugly and cruel.
It was also, as pointed out earlier, not homogenous, therefore not all ugly and cruel.

LOL! So clever..

I'm not a troll. Someone disagreeing with you isn't called trolling.
No, a troll is someone who makes inflammatory statements with the intent to provoke an emotional response. Much like all of your quotes have been so far. No facts, no sources, just opinions and insults. Thusly do I name thee, Troll.

My grandfather was 1/4 Cherokee. So that makes me by blood some tiny percentage Indian, but that doesn't blind me from what Indian culture was like. It isn't good. It isn't romantic. For the most part it was ugly and cruel.People here have asked you to back up what must have been intensive study on your part into a culture to which you do not belong, despite your claims to 'blood'. Do not expect to make claims and not be asked to back them up...that's not how General works.

in Rome, group orgies were commonplace.




Sigh, when did we lose our ways? ;)

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?
Do I feel guilty? Not only no, but hell no. I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to feel guilty about anything my ancestors have done. My responsibility is to be the best and most compassionate person I can be today.

Well, white folks like Beckner have done an excellent job accepting bizarre concepts like "original sin" and a benevolent deity that has its children tortured for all eternity if they don't love it back, so I'd say that deviance is in the eye of the beholder.

Oh, and it's not human nature to be evil, so much as it is human nature to be selfish and self-centered. Most things follow from that: if it makes you feel good to be "good," you'll be good. If it makes you feel good to be "evil," you'll be evil.

Transcendence of human nature is achieved when selfishness is put aside for the Other, just as "love" is best described as "the condition in which the happiness of another becomes integral to one's own happiness."

I just realized I should answer the question.

I have as much guilt over things my ancestors DIDN'T do (never slaveowners or much of anything else but farmers, surveyors, miners and teachers.) as I do for the supposed actions of two naked fruit-munching simpletons in prehistory.

No, I don't feel guilty, as my ancestors, ancient and recent, were Irish.

And good old fashioned European and American culture isn't?

That's the point, moron. Whites shouldn't feel guilty when every civilization is equally screwed up. This thread was started to attack Whites, I'm just evening the score.

Sigh, when did we lose our ways? ;)

Watling street. Dem those Iceni Savages, dem.

er.... end highjack?

No, I don't feel guilty, as my ancestors, ancient and recent, were Irish.
What...like the Irish never did anything bad? My dad can tell you stories about the atrocities committed by Irishmen upon the poor potato...:). No seriously....every ethnicity has skeletons in the closet.

Why is it that blame for slave trade is placed mostly on the whites? Rome, Greek, Egypt, Minoa, Sumeria, the African tribes. All "races" have at one point condoned the use of slaves. But since the white slave trade is the closest to current times they get the most blame?

Do Christians feel shame for the millions of Pagans that where killed as the church went through Europe? Do Christians feel shame for the atrocities in the Holy Land? Or of Muslims in modern times? What about the Salem witch trials? The inquisiton?

Racism as white trend? Ha Romans considered Etrusican blood to be a great way to boost familial power. But they sent white slaves from Germania to the arena's or to death. Egyptains killed the early Christians. The Jews sent Jesus to the cross. So why is it that when they think of racism/guilt/shame it is directed to the whites?

I don't care how many people they touched with their coup twigs. They killed each other left and right too. They enslaved each other. The had all sorts of bizarre sexual practices. They were heathens.
I don't know what the deal was with the twigs. True, they killed each other as much as humans do everywhere else.

Slavery amongst the Americans was very different than it was with the Europeans. Take the Aztecs, for example. To become a slave you had to be a repeat offender, have a big debt, be a prisioner of war, or murder somebody's husband (as long as the widow asked to commute the death penalty). And you could regain your freedom by making a run for it and crossing the market walls (no one but the master was allowed to stop you), stepping on human excrement (difficult, since the Aztecs were very clean), paying your freedom, or marrying your master. Slavery also was non-hereditary, everybody was born free.

The northern nations had similar practices for slavery and a person rarely remained all his or her life a slave in America. Most of them were even accepted eventually as full members of the community.

As for sex, they enjoyed it as freely as any other people on Earth. Even more than the Muslims who have that "no woman on top" rule.

An, yes, they were heathens, but only those who don't believe in the teachings of Huitzilopochtli, the true god.

That's the point, moron. Whites shouldn't feel guilty when every civilization is equally screwed up. This thread was started to attack Whites, I'm just evening the score.
Flaming. And reported. By the way...doesn't it strike you as odd that no one else has seen this thread as an attack on 'whites'?

Yes, but they aren't embraced by our civilization. Indian culture embraced and celebrated homosexuality and child molestation, just to name two.

Of course, you're wrapped up in the whole romantic fictionalized account of Indian culture. You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in your liberal face. if you went back in time and lived with those heathen savages you'd be begging God to bring you back, fool.
I fail to see where you're adding anything more than heat to this discussion at this point. Please calm down.

That's the point, moron. Whites shouldn't feel guilty when every civilization is equally screwed up. This thread was started to attack Whites, I'm just evening the score.

Interestingly enough, you're the only person who has done any attacking of any kind. No one called white people "savages" or "heathens" or any of the other wonderfully endearing terms you've used for Native Americans.

Do not expect to make claims and not be asked to back them up...that's not how General works.

And where is your evidence? You back up your claims of how great Indian culture was. And it's funny, I didn't read that here in the blessed General forum, people had to cite their sources. Stop being pathetic.

Yes, but they aren't embraced by our civilization. Indian culture embraced and celebrated homosexuality and child molestation, just to name two.
So did the Greeks and the Romans. Celts and Scandinavians are not as well documented, but I wouldn't be surprised.

The mores of the desert peoples didn't cross over to Europe until relatively recent times.

This thread was started to attack Whites, I'm just evening the score.
It most certainly was not --which is what makes your "evening the score" trolling.

That's the point, moron. Whites shouldn't feel guilty when every civilization is equally screwed up. This thread was started to attack Whites, I'm just evening the score.

Hey fuck you, ignorant asshole. No this thread wasn't started to attack anybody you dumbass. This thread was established to see if anyone did feel guilty. An attack would be something like this "All whites SHOULD feel guilty becuase you killed everyone and everything to get what you want!", but oh excuse me, you aren't intelligent enough to recognize that. Don't blame other people for your own shortcummings and idiocy.

I took sociology, it leaves all white middle-class males feeling slightly guilty.
They would most likely fail my arrogant ass! :D

being irish, my ancestors have done nothing to no one, but we are still angry at the brits for all the crap they did to us (some of us not all of us).

Heck, I come from a whole line of Crazy Drunks, and Imperial Redcoats, do I feel bad about that? No, half my anscestors helped enforce english law in Ireland for quite some time. The other half rebelled against it. Both the english and Irish (Moreso the English) Have commited less than savory acts in the past, even the recent past, but should I feel bad about what they did? No, I learn from it and go on with life.

That's the point, moron. Whites shouldn't feel guilty when every civilization is equally screwed up. This thread was started to attack Whites, I'm just evening the score.
I don't feel "attacked," and I'm about as whitebread as they come! :D

Hey fuck you, ignorant asshole. No this thread wasn't started to attack anybody you dumbass. This thread was established to see if anyone did feel guilty. An attack would be something like this "All whites SHOULD feel guilty becuase you killed everyone and everything to get what you want!", but oh excuse me, you aren't intelligent enough to recognize that. Don't blame other people for your own shortcummings and idiocy.

And you guys want to report how abusive I am?

Moron is comparable to that nasty language? Heathen is comparable to that?

What hypocrites..

being irish, my ancestors have done nothing to no one, but we are still angry at the brits for all the crap they did to us (some of us not all of us).

I am not demeaning the Irish at all but the IRA and their counterparts did some pretty horrific acts so the Irish do also have skeletons in their closet

I don't feel "attacked," and I'm about as whitebread as they come! :D

Eutrusca, race doesn't even matter here. You're the man, and you have logical opinions on things unlike that guy. I may be of a different race than you, but you've always got my support (unless you say something stupid :p ).

being irish, my ancestors have done nothing to no one, but we are still angry at the brits for all the crap they did to us (some of us not all of us).

Actually, the Irish were resonsible for the bombings in Northern Ireland. Which killed alot of innocents.

And you guys want to report how abusive I am?

Moron is comparable to that nasty language? Heathen is comparable to that?

What hypocrites..

Don't start none, won't be none. Simple as that, can't take the heat then get the hell out.

Why is it that blame for slave trade is placed mostly on the whites? Rome, Greek, Egypt, Minoa, Sumeria, the African tribes. All "races" have at one point condoned the use of slaves. But since the white slave trade is the closest to current times they get the most blame?
Well yes, frankly. The Roman and ancient Greek civilizations (as well as many others) are no longer in existence, much less in any sort of acendence, unlike western civilization. People are still profitting from the effects of the most recent slave trade...much as people are NOW profitting from contemporary slavery (workers in sweatshops, women forced into the sex trade and so on). Clearly these injustices deserve more attention than ancient ones?

Do Christians feel shame for the millions of Pagans that where killed as the church went through Europe? Do Christians feel shame for the atrocities in the Holy Land? Or of Muslims in modern times? What about the Salem witch trials? The inquisiton? I certainly hope they do, and take that into account when they choose their faith...realising that that faith is not free of the stain of oppression. Guilt is another matter...unless their particular faith is currently involved in evil (such as the cover up of child molestation and the like) and they are doing nothing to make a change for the better, then guilt is unwarranted.

Racism as white trend? Ha Romans considered Etrusican blood to be a great way to boost familial power. But they sent white slaves from Germania to the arena's or to death. Egyptains killed the early Christians. The Jews sent Jesus to the cross. So why is it that when they think of racism/guilt/shame it is directed to the whites?
When WHO thinks of racism/guilt/shame? Non-whites? Who has said that racism is a white trend?

And you guys want to report how abusive I am?

Moron is comparable to that nasty language? Heathen is comparable to that?

What hypocrites..

Then go report him if it bothers you so much. But just because his language was inappropriate doesn't make yours not inappropriate. If I'm not mistaken, that's entirely the point you're trying to communicate in this thread.

Hey fuck you, ignorant asshole. No this thread wasn't started to attack anybody you dumbass. This thread was established to see if anyone did feel guilty. An attack would be something like this "All whites SHOULD feel guilty becuase you killed everyone and everything to get what you want!", but oh excuse me, you aren't intelligent enough to recognize that. Don't blame other people for your own shortcummings and idiocy.
Jeeze! YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO GET THE DAMNED THREAD I-LOCKED! :(

none at all, my ancestors were German and never owned slaves

Part Irish, part English. Half of my ancestry is a proud one of empire, history, and industry. No guilt there. Half is a happy group of drunken sailers. Whee!

No, no guilt here!

Eutrusca, race doesn't even matter here. You're the man, and you have logical opinions on things unlike that guy. I may be of a different race than you, but you've always got my support (unless you say something stupid :p ).
Say something stupid? [ places hand over chest, fingers open and touching chest, shocked look on face ] Moi??? Sacre BLU! :D

I don't know what the deal was with the twigs. Ah, it was a skill thing. You go, sneak up on an enemy, get close enough to 'count coup' (close enough to give them a good, non-lethal whack) and get away without getting killed. Kept us entertained.


Slavery amongst the Americans was very different than it was with the Europeans. Take the Aztecs, for example. To become a slave you had to be a repeat offender, have a big debt, be a prisioner of war, or murder somebody's husband (as long as the widow asked to commute the death penalty). And you could regain your freedom by making a run for it and crossing the market walls (no one but the master was allowed to stop you), stepping on human excrement (difficult, since the Aztecs were very clean), paying your freedom, or marrying your master. Slavery also was non-hereditary, everybody was born free.

The northern nations had similar practices for slavery and a person rarely remained all his or her life a slave in America. Most of them were even accepted eventually as full members of the community.
A lot of the slaves kept by Natives in North America were orphans or women (of the enemy) who otherwise would have starved with no one to support them...and yes, most of them were eventually adopted into the tribe. We didn't have enough people that we could afford to waste time worrying about what tribe they originally came from. It was a good way to keep us from getting too interbred, too.

No, I don't feel guilty about being white. That in itself perpetuates the 'one group better than the other' foolishness we've all got to get over. I recognize what happened, and that it is evil, but I don't feel personal responsibility for it for the simple reason that I was not alive during the Native American genocide nor the Civil War-pre Civil Rights era. For that matter, none of my family was even here until 1908, and I can tell you as Italian immigrants, they were not treated particularly kindly either.

I've always been taught to treat everyone with respect, and that's what I do. I don't think that handwringing and endless apologies over something one had not personally done is in any way useful.

Don't start none, won't be none. Simple as that, can't take the heat then get the hell out.

Well, why couldn't you "take the heat"? You blew your top. I didn't use that language with you. If I called you a moron, call me a moron back. You went over the line. You just can't control your temper.

But regardless, I'm done with all of you. Live in your ignorance. The truth isn't for everyone. I'll never post on your dumb message boards ever again.

For that matter, none of my family was even here until 1908, and I can tell you as Italian immigrants, they were not treated particularly kindly either.


I do find it endlessly amusing that 'white' has become such a popular discriptor for such a wide range of people. My Irish grandfather used to tell us stories about the 'dumb Polack brothers' down the road and the 'greasy wops' in town, and how the southern Irish (bog Irish) used to spit on the ground when he walked by....none of these people were considered 'white' before quite recently... (and Granda never considered himself a racist 'cuz he just hated 'white' folks:))

Short answer - no. Long answer, also no

Sinuhue sure knows how to fire people up with her threads.

There seems to be a misconception as to what exactly is meant by "guilty" in the context I believe Sinuhue is using. To feel "guilty" for past atrocities does not mean that you feel personally responsible. No one would try and make such a ludicrous claim. Rather, to feel "guilty" means that you acknowledge that past atrocities were indeed committed by your ancestors, and whether you like it or not, you have directly benefitted as a result. I do not believe any one here (notably white, Christian males) could claim that they have not benefitted, essentially since birth, from the circumstances you were born into. Circumstances that were created by the actions, some quite horrible, by our ancestors. Feeling "guilty" does not mean you feel bad about who you were born as; that would be quite ridiculous, as none of us had any control over that. But we can at least acknowledge that (and I speak as said white, Christian male) we have somewhat unfairly benefitted from being born into privilege.

Hmmm...please folks...don't let a trollish meltdown stop you from posting...we managed to do nine pages in about half an hour...

Beckner
People of all shades have killed millions of people. Genghis Khan killed millions. The Aztecs killed and cannibalized their own. Blacks are slaughtering each other in Africa even today. Ever hear of Rwanda?

Stop blaming Whitey and use your brain. You liberals believe in Darwins theory. Whites killed the Indians because our civilizations came into conflict. Ours was stronger, we won. If the tables we're turned, the Indians & Aztecs would've went to Europe and wiped out the white folks. Get a grip.


Heh heh.

From an evolutionary stand point, he's partially right (despite the racist overtones.). All evolution is, is change. Not for the better, not for the worst, just change. We may view evolution as being "successfull" or "unsuccessfull" in terms of how long a species or other classification of organism procreates for and maintains its population relative to other species/classifications, but all that is is a human imposition of ideals and concepts regarding progress/success. Stephen J. Gould has reitterated this many a time. As he puts it, "Nature is amoral." Put simply, in context to Beckner's quote: Two civilizations (two differentiating groups of organisms within a single species) came into conflict. One "lost" and one "won". So what? Change occured, that's what. It's evolution, baby. And who's to say that any clade or whatever that wins has truly "won", in the long run? The larger a population (of a given organism group) gets, it seems to me, the more likely it is to collapse.

I don't feel guilt. I don't feel much of anything other than scientific curiosity. Which leads to the more important question: How do I, as an individual, deal with other individuals within and without my organism group? How do I respond to the ethically horrible treatment of one group by another, or one individual by another? I respond as responsibly as I can. What I mean by "responsible" is that behaviour which is considered beneficial, just, and ethical in the context of my society. But it is only ever within that context. Take responsibility outside of a social context, and evolution, biology, and existence don't really give a damn what you or I do.

Sinuhue sure knows how to fire people up with her threads. *looks around innocently*...who, me?

There seems to be a misconception as to what exactly is meant by "guilty" in the context I believe Sinuhue is using. To feel "guilty" for past atrocities does not mean that you feel personally responsible. No one would try and make such a ludicrous claim. Rather, to feel "guilty" means that you acknowledge that past atrocities were indeed committed by your ancestors, and whether you like it or not, you have directly benefitted as a result. I do not believe any one here (notably white, Christian males) could claim that they have not benefitted, essentially since birth, from the circumstances you were born into. Circumstances that were created by the actions, some quite horrible, by our ancestors. Feeling "guilty" does not mean you feel bad about who you were born as; that would be quite ridiculous, as none of us had any control over that. But we can at least acknowledge that (and I speak as said white, Christian male) we have somewhat unfairly benefitted from being born into privilege.

Thank you, you've summed up my point quite well...those I bolded the statement that in fact believe some people WILL try to claim.

Sinuhue sure knows how to fire people up with her threads.

There seems to be a misconception as to what exactly is meant by "guilty" in the context I believe Sinuhue is using. To feel "guilty" for past atrocities does not mean that you feel personally responsible. No one would try and make such a ludicrous claim. Rather, to feel "guilty" means that you acknowledge that past atrocities were indeed committed by your ancestors, and whether you like it or not, you have directly benefitted as a result. I do not believe any one here (notably white, Christian males) could claim that they have not benefitted, essentially since birth, from the circumstances you were born into. Circumstances that were created by the actions, some quite horrible, by our ancestors. Feeling "guilty" does not mean you feel bad about who you were born as; that would be quite ridiculous, as none of us had any control over that. But we can at least acknowledge that (and I speak as said white, Christian male) we have somewhat unfairly benefitted from being born into privilege.
You mean kinda like the entire human race has benefitted from the slaughter which took place somewhere back down the lineage of every single one of us?

Nope. I refuse to feel guilty. As I said before, which post was ignored at the time due to some of the more ... vociferous posts being made, my only responsibility is to be the best, most compassionat person I can be right now, today.

Thank you, you've summed up my point quite well...those I bolded the statement that in fact believe some people WILL try to claim.

Any white, Christian males who are unable to admit that we have it better than non-whites, non-Christians, or women are blind.

You mean kinda like the entire human race has benefitted from the slaughter which took place somewhere back down the lineage of every single one of us?

Nope. I refuse to feel guilty. As I said before, which post was ignored at the time due to some of the more ... vociferous posts being made, my only responsibility is to be the best, most compassionat person I can be right now, today.

No, I mean in this day and age, it is better to be white, Christian, or male, than to not be. There are certain advantages that are inherent. It would be stupid to say that you should feel bad that you happened to be born a certain way, but you can at least acknowledge that it is the case.

Any white, Christian males who are unable to admit that we have it better than non-whites, non-Christians, or women are blind.

I agree!

Why should I feel guilty. I have done nothing wrong. I don't think you can judge people by the actions of other people of their race/family/other things that makes them a group. If my grandfather was a psycho who murdered 10 children, I won't have to go to jail for it.

It's a bit like saying: A blue-eyed man stole $100 from me, and you have blue eyes, therefore you can be held accountable and should give me the money back. It's nonsense.

And maybe one day there will be no more of the various "races" and we will all be a species that exists together in balance.

I'm half American and half European to the point that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins. This thread is giving me the strange urge to go and screw myself.

I'm half American and half European to the point that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins. This thread is giving me the strange urge to go and screw myself.
An image has been created in my mind that I can not erase...

I'm half American and half European to the point that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins. This thread is giving me the strange urge to go and screw myself.

Nothing wrong with a little self-love. :)

Ok, so the general sentiment I'm getting is that:

Guilt for the past actions of others is unwarranted, but acknowledgement is important, as well as CURRENT action to deal with CURRENT abuses (including those that were created by past abuses). Yes?

No, I mean in this day and age, it is better to be white, Christian, or male, than to not be. There are certain advantages that are inherent. It would be stupid to say that you should feel bad that you happened to be born a certain way, but you can at least acknowledge that it is the case.
Of course. To deny that would be to deny the facts, although things have changed considerably even in just my lifetime. But I still refuse to feel guilty about it. :)

What I think we're seeing here is a difference between guilt and acknowledgement. Without a wayback machine, guilt is a misplaced term-and I'd argue one used by disengenious people trying to re-characterize the issue to their own means (and not the people you'd think).

While both sides of my family got to America in the 20th Century, my namesake side where Irish land owners, so we where 'the bad guys' at least at one point. I'm sure if I spent some time I could find some crappy things my moms side did. But the point isn't to feel guilty about it, just acknowledge it-understand that it happened, why it happened, don't let it happen again.

The idea that it was people within your particular 'heritage' is that people just like you made that mistake, and understand that it is you and not some condition that could allow it to happen if you try and ignore it or make excuses. Because truth be told, the cackling handwringing villian is a figment of fiction. For the most part, the 'villians' where people who thought of themselves as decent people who where making excuses for what they did.

Of course. To deny that would be to deny the facts, although things have changed considerably even in just my lifetime. But I still refuse to feel guilty about it. :)

Do you ever feel bad that you've benefitted from being white?

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?

Well, not all Americans were a party to, or an ancestor of the New England and Western genocides against Native Americans.... So it's hard to attribute the same standards as that of Germany and the Nazi's genocide against Jews, Homosexuals, and such.... Generally they were treated differently... (Oddly enough, the "southern Native American tribes were treated with much more respect than the union and New England states had been treating them.... To the point of, even, the Confederacy entering into an alliance with "The 5 Nations" (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole and Creek nations)... Far different than the counterpart tribes located in the west and north (some of which do not exist PERIOD, anymore).

What I think we're seeing here is a difference between guilt and acknowledgement. Without a wayback machine, guilt is a misplaced term-and I'd argue one used by disengenious people trying to re-characterize the issue to their own means (and not the people you'd think).

While both sides of my family got to America in the 20th Century, my namesake side where Irish land owners, so we where 'the bad guys' at least at one point. I'm sure if I spent some time I could find some crappy things my moms side did. But the point isn't to feel guilty about it, just acknowledge it-understand that it happened, why it happened, don't let it happen again.

The idea that it was people within your particular 'heritage' is that people just like you made that mistake, and understand that it is you and not some condition that could allow it to happen if you try and ignore it or make excuses. Because truth be told, the cackling handwringing villian is a figment of fiction. For the most part, the 'villians' where people who thought of themselves as decent people who where making excuses for what they did.
You know ... I never, ever thought I would say this, but I completely agree with you! :D

Guilty? No.

I think all people should work to correct the wrongs of the past - whether they were a part of them or not. I am not guilty for what others who look like me or share the same lineage as me have done in the past - as I was not a part of it.

I think asking me if I feel guilty for these things is like asking me if I feel guilty because someone robbed a bank downtown. Of course I don't. But I will still seek to prevent further robberies and do what I can to alleviate the desperation that often leads people to robbery.

Do you ever feel bad that you've benefitted from being white?
Since it wasn't a choice on my part, no. Any particular reason I should???

Why? I didn't do anything.

Well, not all Americans were a party to, or an ancestor of the New England and Western genocides against Native Americans.... So it's hard to attribute the same standards as that of Germany and the Nazi's genocide against Jews, Homosexuals, and such.... Generally they were treated differently... (Oddly enough, the "southern Native American tribes were treated with much more respect than the union and New England states had been treating them.... To the point of, even, the Confederacy entering into an alliance with "The 5 Nations" (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole and Creek nations)... Far different than the counterpart tribes located in the west and north (some of which do not exist PERIOD, anymore).


Cute.


Removal of the "Five Civilized Tribes"
In 1830, the so-called "Five Civilized Tribes" — the Chickasaw, Choctaw, Creek, Seminole, and Cherokee — were still living east of the Mississippi. They were called "civilized" because many tribesmen had adopted various aspects of European-American culture, including Christianity. The Cherokees had a system of writing their own language, developed by Sequoyah, and published a newspaper in Cherokee and English.

In spite of this acculturation, the position of the tribes was not secure. Some felt the presense of the tribes was a threat to peace and security, since many Native Americans had fought against the United States in previous wars, often armed by foreign nations such as Great Britain and Spain. Other white settlers and land speculators simply desired the land that was occupied by the tribes.

Accordingly, governments of the various U.S. states desired that all tribal lands within their boundaries be placed under state jurisdiction. In 1830, Georgia passed a law which prohibited whites from living on Indian territory after March 31, 1831 without a license from the state. This law was written to justify removing white missionaries who were helping the Indians resist removal. Indian removal opponent Jeremiah Evarts urged the Cherokee nation to take their case to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Marshall court ruled that while Indian tribes were not sovereign nations (Cherokee Nation v. Georgia, 1831), state laws had no force on tribal lands (Worcester v. Georgia, 1832). President Andrew Jackson is often quoted as having responded to the court by defiantly proclaiming, "John Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it!" Jackson did not actually say this, though he made no effort to protect the tribes from state governments.1

Andrew Jackson and other candidates of the new Democratic Party had made Indian Removal a major goal in the campaign of 1828. In 1830, Congress passed the Indian Removal Act and President Jackson signed it into law. The Removal Act provided for the government to negotiate removal treaties with the various tribes. The Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek with the Choctaw was the first such removal treaty implemented; while around 7,000 Choctaws ultimately stayed in Mississippi, about 14,000 moved along the Red River. Other treaties, like the dubious Treaty of New Echota with the Cherokee, followed, resulting in the Trail of Tears.

As a result, the five tribes were resettled in the new Indian Territory in modern-day Oklahoma and parts of Kansas. Some Indians eluded removal, while those who lived on individually owned land (rather than tribal domains) were not subject to removal. Those who stayed behind eventually formed tribal groups including the Eastern Band Cherokee, based in North Carolina.

In 1835, the Seminoles refused to leave Florida, leading to the Second Seminole War. The most important leader in the war was Osceola, who led the Seminoles in their fight against removal. Hiding in the Everglades of Florida, Osceola and his band used surprise attacks to defeat the U.S. Army in many battles. In 1837, Osceola was tricked into capture when he came to negotiate peace during a truce. He died in prison. The Seminoles continued to fight. Some traveled deeper into the Everglades. Others moved west. The Second Seminole War ended in 1842. The United States won.

Because truth be told, the cackling handwringing villian is a figment of fiction. For the most part, the 'villians' where people who thought of themselves as decent people who where making excuses for what they did.

Very true.

Since it wasn't a choice on my part, no. Any particular reason I should???

You don't feel bad at all that you've benefitted for doing nothing except having the right color skin?

Since it wasn't a choice on my part, no. Any particular reason I should???
But it is your choice to go on benefitting from something that you had no control over...I think Sdaerijii's asking if there has every been a situation where you felt you held an advantage over someone else simply because of the 'race' and or nation you happened to be born into...and if so...did you feel guilty to hold an advantage that you did not earn?

I think it's a natural thing for people to feel associated guilt for the sins of their parents grandparents etc...etc...etc........I guess knowing there is guilt there gives me hope that that generation won't committ the same mistakes. Now on the other hand shoud they take any responsibility.......NO! They did not commit the crime they should not do the time.
Now as for "Whites" being to blame. I find that to be an extreme overgeneralization.
My family came to the US well after the indians were forced off their lands. we had nothing to do with their situation.
Many other people I know had families that came off the same boat.
Not here when the indians were driven out.
Most Indians that come from the nearby reservations make more income from reparations from the US gov which my tax dollars pay for then I make in monthly wages.Plus they can hold a job & not loose those benefits.
Americans are too nice when they win conflicts. Paying the loser reparations. who else does that?
It's like saying Italy should pay out pure British natives for taking them over & forcing catholism on them.

But it is your choice to go on benefitting from something that you had no control over...I think he's asking if there has every been a situation where you felt you held an advantage over someone else simply because of the 'race' and or nation you happened to be born into...and if so...did you feel guilty to hold an advantage that you did not earn?

Thank you. That is a much better way of saying it.

Well, it's been a slice, folks, and I hate to thread-and-run, but it's time to get back to RL and study for my French finals tomorrow...just one more week in la-la student land before the cold, hard reality of work hits me next Monday.... :( when, as you no doubt are aware, I will have entirely too much time to spend on General, involving myself in such debates!

You don't feel bad at all that you've benefitted for doing nothing except having the right color skin?
Nope. Let me reiterate: is there some reason I should feel badly, since I had nothing to do with being born white?

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?
I don't feel guilty at all, cause I didn't do shit. I didn't touch a single Native American, never owned a black (or any color) slave, and never lynched a black guy. Neither should that girl, cause she never screamed 'Sieg Heil', or voted for the Nazi party, or gunned down jews.

But it is your choice to go on benefitting from something that you had no control over...I think Sdaerijii's asking if there has every been a situation where you felt you held an advantage over someone else simply because of the 'race' and or nation you happened to be born into...and if so...did you feel guilty to hold an advantage that you did not earn?
It's a fact of life ... people are born into all sorts of things: wealth, priviledge, social status, intellect, etc. Why should they, or I, feel guilty simply because of what our parents or ancestors did or didn't do? It makes no sense.

My family was wealthy land owners before the Meji Revolution changed that and decimated the Samurai caste. My ancestors cruxified Japanese christians. They fought against the Imperial Army and its Western Masters. Why should I have guilt over something done centuries ago?

My family was wealthy land owners before the Meji Revolution changed that and decimated the Samurai caste. My ancestors cruxified Japanese christians. They fought against the Imperial Army and its Western Masters. Why should I have guilt over something done centuries ago?
Exactly! As I have repeatedly attempted to indicate to a largely unreceptive audience: our individual responsibility is to be the best, most compassionate people we can be. To feel guilty for something beyond our control is not only illogical, it can also cloud our vision and make us less effective.

Exactly! As I have repeatedly attempted to indicate to a largely unreceptive audience: our individual responsibility is to be the best, most compassionate people we can be. To feel guilty for something beyond our control is not only illogical, it can also cloud our vision and make us less effective.

I really think people are interpreting guilt differently. You obviously don't feel that you have done anything wrong (and I agree with you). However, being compassionate would mean that we would try to correct the issues that have arisen out of the wrongs of the past (racism, classism, etc.) That compassion is what some are referring to as guilt.

As a third generation American, my great grand parents were all from Croatia. I am certain that my ancestors a.) never owned slaves b.)never oppressed native americans c.) never stole anyone's land (in America) and I don't feel guilty about any of these 'white man's crimes'.

If anything, my ancestors may have killed some serbs, british, greeks, turks etc. in the Balkan Wars and World War I , but hey, who in the Balkans hasn't?

I really think people are interpreting guilt differently. You obviously don't feel that you have done anything wrong (and I agree with you). However, being compassionate would mean that we would try to correct the issues that have arisen out of the wrongs of the past (racism, classism, etc.) That compassion is what some are referring to as guilt.
LOL! Well, perhaps that's one of the things going on here then. My interpretation of the phrase "to feel guilty" is "to have the feeling of being guilty without actually having been guilty of anything."

If I actually did something wrong, then I should feel guilty.

Do you ever feel bad that you've benefitted from being white?

Do you ever feel bad that you've benefitted from being intelligent, and funny, and thoughtful?

LOL! Well, perhaps that's one of the things going on here then. My interpretation of the phrase "to feel guilty" is "to have the feeling of being guilty without actually having been guilty of anything."

If I actually did something wrong, then I should feel guilty.
It's a matter of assuming guilt, taking it onto oneself because of compassion or empathy for the victims and association with the guilty party. It has nothing to do with a person having done something themselves.

From other Native Nations...keep in mind in this discussion that native peoples did not exist as a homogenous group. We were, in essense, like the warring states of Europe, and as apt to trade with, betray, form alliances, break them, make war on, have peace with etc as Europeans were.

yep, Sioux preyed on Blackfeet, Huron on Mohawk,etc, etc....

and most of the Eastern and Plains tribes (although obviously not all) saw fit to raid European settlements from loot and women as well.

Do you ever feel bad that you've benefitted from being white?

Nope. Nope, I can speak as a male white christian that I have NEVER felt bad for being white. You're missing an important point, if someone else rewards me for being a male white christian, I have still done NOTHING wrong. If anything I would fell GOOD, why should I feel bad because of the ignorance of others?

Nope.

In fact my ancestors (since before the turn of the century) have lived in either Poland or Syria(Two peoples who have been descriminated against for a long time), so if anyone should be apologising, it should be Russians!

Nope. Nope, I can speak as a male white christian that I have NEVER felt bad for being white. You're missing an important point, if someone else rewards me for being a male white christian, I have still done NOTHING wrong. If anything I would fell GOOD, why should I feel bad because of the ignorance of others?
Where does ignorance play into it?

It's a matter of assuming guilt, taking it onto oneself because of compassion or empathy for the victims and association with the guilty party. It has nothing to do with a person having done something themselves.

(a) Why should one ever assume another's guilt? That is simply unhealthy.

(b) Association with a guilty party only makes sense if you associated with them of your own accord. I don't think being born into a given ethnicity counts as "of your own accord." I certainly don't remember being given a choice of who my parents would be.

(c) Having compassion and empathy does not in any way necessitate a feeling of guilt.

Actually, I'm starting to feel as if the repeated questions about why people don't feel guilty about an accident of birth is somewhat racist in itself?

Nope. Nope, I can speak as a male white christian that I have NEVER felt bad for being white. You're missing an important point, if someone else rewards me for being a male white christian, I have still done NOTHING wrong. If anything I would fell GOOD, why should I feel bad because of the ignorance of others?

Now you've taken it a bit far.

You would feel good that you were granted something you did not deserve? You would feel good that others who may be more deserving were being unfairly treated?

As a woman who is 75% German with a grandmother from Chile, no, I don't feel guilty. The Holocaust was horrible, but all of my family was already in America at the time (except for one aunt by marriage) and men who died fighting the Axis, no, I don't feel guilty for it. My family came here around the early 1900's, so we didn't battle the Indians, and didn't own slaves. That one grandma was part of a nomadic tribe that I don't know a whole lot about, but I'm sure some part of it did something terrible at some point in time. All these things were terrible and as a human being, I want to do whatever I can to make sure it never happens again, but I don't feel like the past is my responsiblity. I'm sure if I took the time, I could find tons of horrible things in my family's past, but I'm not going to feel guilty about it, since it won't change the past if I did. All I can do is try to prevent anything like it in the future.

It's a matter of assuming guilt, taking it onto oneself because of compassion or empathy for the victims and association with the guilty party. It has nothing to do with a person having done something themselves.
Guilt is, by its very nature, a highly personal emotion. There is no such thing as "racial guilt" or "national guilt" simply because neither races nor nations have feelings.

I have no idea what you mean by "assuming guilt." Either I am personally guilty of an act of commision or ommission, or I'm not guilty at all.

You know ... I never, ever thought I would say this, but I completely agree with you! :D
I was wondering why my feet where getting so cold...

But truth be told, we've publicly agreed before.


Though, I'd hold off on any warm fuzziness 'cause I'm about to respond to something else and we should be back to start.

(a) Why should one ever assume another's guilt? That is simply unhealthy.

(b) Association with a guilty party only makes sense if you associated with them of your own accord. I don't think being born into a given ethnicity counts as "of your own accord." I certainly don't remember being given a choice of who my parents would be.
It is not by choice or "your own accord", but by nature.

It's nature; it doesn't have to make sense.

(c) Having compassion and empathy does not in any way necessitate a feeling of guilt.
This is so, and I hope I never implied otherwise. It does, however, account for the feeling in those who do feel it (at least some of them).

You would feel good that you were granted something you did not deserve?
Did you deserve to be born?

Guilt is, by its very nature, a highly personal emotion. There is no such thing as "racial guilt" or "national guilt" simply because neither races nor nations have feelings.
I agree, entirely.

I have no idea what you mean by "assuming guilt." Either I am personally guilty of an act of commision or ommission, or I'm not guilty at all.
I can only assume that assuming guilt is not a part of your nature, then.

I was wondering why my feet where getting so cold...

But truth be told, we've publicly agreed before.


Though, I'd hold off on any warm fuzziness 'cause I'm about to respond to something else and we should be back to start.
LOL! Why, oh why am I not surprised? :rolleyes:

I can only assume that assuming guilt is not a part of your nature, then.
I again admit to being totally mystified by this statement. As best I can tell, it's impossible for anyone to "assume" guilt. An individual is either guilty of something or he/she is not. There is no in-between. And as I indicated before, if I am in fact not guilty, then why should I feel guilty?

I see no reason why anyone should have to feel guilty for something that they personally weren't involved with. I'm not sure if my ancestors took part in any of the ignoble deeds of the British Empire, but even if they were, I'm not apologising for them.

Did you deserve to be born?

In as much as anyone else does.

In as much as anyone else does.
Do you feel guilty for having been born while others were aborted or miscarried?

Neither do I feel guilty for having been born white. Just as you had no control over having been born, I had no control over having been born white.

It is not by choice or "your own accord", but by nature.

It's nature; it doesn't have to make sense.

You cannot be guilty for an association that just happens. If I am on an airplane and one person in the airplane shoots a flight attendent, I am not guilty of murder, despite being associated with all the people on the plane.

This is so, and I hope I never implied otherwise. It does, however, account for the feeling in those who do feel it (at least some of them).

Not really. I see nothing other than mental illness that can account for feeling guilty for something that is not your fault - not if the word is being used properly, anyways.

You don't feel bad at all that you've benefitted for doing nothing except having the right color skin?
I think this, too, falls under acknoweldgement rather than guilt, per se. Since 'white advatage' is more statistical than empirical (which is to say on a whole white america has a better advatage than minorities, but not that every white american is better off than every minority individual) it is harder to identify what is come by as a result of 'white privilage' and what is a result of your own work.

Are you not being pulled over because you're white, or because you're a good driver? (further complicated-I'm white as hell but get pulled over all the time, with car searches and belegerance as well) Culturally it might be easier to get good grades, but you still got the grades, and maybe some others in a minority got better-maybe even without working as hard. Ancedotally it becomes useless. But statistically, white advantage exists. It's just too esoteric to identify in your day to day life, and not an accurate representation.

But you can acknowledge that white advantage exists. Maybe (probably, most likely) it is at least in part white advantage that I am the second generation to get a college education and not the first, or that college in my family was the assumption. But my parents struggled and worked through college, how much goes to that, how much to them being white? Is there a precentage?

Ultimately guilt is not the way to look at it, rather to acknowledge that the playing field is not even, and that you may have benefited by that. And work to even that playing field (not to say dedicate your life to it, but in a democratic republic we do get to participate and still live our lives).

Forgive the pun*, but it's not a black and white issue.


(*even literally it's not a black and white issue, we have a tendancy to look at race in the US as binary when it is not. And often, and this is really the rub, it is a smoke screen for class issues-something america likes to pretend it doesn't have, but attributes far more to the shape of the playing field...)

The ignorance I was referring to is that of people who somehow think I am better because of how I was born. That's not my problem. It's their racial/sexual ignorance that I can't be held responsible for.

Do black people that get into colleges due to affirmitive action feel good because they pushed out some better qualified white people? Getting something I don't deserve because I'm a white christian is rare: A. because I live in a mostly white christian area. B. scholarship opportunities arn't "aimed" at my kind of people

Do you feel guilty for having been born while others were aborted or miscarried?

You are using a false analogy here. You really aren't "you" until a certain point in development.

Let's move into something that makes a bit more sense in light of the conversation.

Suppose I put in for a job. Suppose a man put in for the same job. Suppose the man is more qualified, but I get the job because I am female.

Would I feel guilty about this? No, of course not - I am not the one being unfairly discriminatory.

Would I feel good about it? Of course not - it is an insult to me and an injustice done to the man in question.

Neither do I feel guilty for having been born white. Just as you had no control over having been born, I had no control over having been born white.

I never said you did or that you should feel guilty. Would you, however, as the poster I was replying to stated he would, feel good about being handed a job you were unqualified for just because you were white?

What next you'll be calling Native Americans savages! And just because all people of all does not make it right and therefore we cannot skake the shame and responsibility!
No, Europeans called them savages, and the superior weaponry and technology allowed them to do so.


And slavery did nothing to enhance those advantages?

Are advantages inherently positive then? Because I believe you are talking about 'superior' weaponry and the like when you discuss these particular advantages. Does might make right?
No. And advantages were not inherent; they came from the bitter history of constant warfare between kingdoms. If there is a lot of warfare, weapon technology will evolve. On the other hand, Native Americans led a generally peacefull life, and therefore have not discovered gunpowder, armor etc.

You are obviously wrapped up in ones own ignorance not to see what a great culture that the Native Americans had. And you talk of bizzare sex practices, just look on the web I bet you are almost gurranteed to find weird practices practiced by "Whitey".
What great culture? They lived in mudhuts and prayed to the spirits of moon and trees and rocks. Sometimes, they even sacrificed humans to those spirits. Their technology was backwards, and their entire system unstable. that's why they lost. Sure some of the tribes had a social system superior to europeans of that time, but social systems don't win wars: weapons do.


Well I didn't see that coming from a mile off.

I could respond by telling you that you're too wrapped up in a romantic fictionalised account of Christian culture, but you probably wouldn't believe me. Remember that Homosexuality has only ever been decried by the major religions, and even then not all of them. Let's elaborate. The people of various Germanic tribes had sacrifices. The people of Carthage had human sacrifice and Child prostitution, allegedly, though this may be a fabrication of the Romans. In Greece, homosexuality and paedophilia were the norm, in Rome, group orgies were commonplace.

So if anyone is a savage, it's everyone.
Timeline, timeline. By the 15th-16th century those practices were long forgotten.

unbiased source
All sources are biased. Some more, some less.

Why is it that blame for slave trade is placed mostly on the whites? Rome, Greek, Egypt, Minoa, Sumeria, the African tribes. All "races" have at one point condoned the use of slaves. But since the white slave trade is the closest to current times they get the most blame?

Yep. It's rarely mentioned that most of the black slaves were enslaved by other Africans, and traded to Europeans for guns and medicine.

I do not believe any one here (notably white, Christian males) could claim that they have not benefitted, essentially since birth, from the circumstances you were born into.
I am not christian. Otherwise, I have not at all benefited from the circumstaces I was born to. White males have it worse, not better, because we don't have affirmative action, "BLACK enterntainment televison", white-only groups like NAACP (well we do, but KKK is not really like NAACP).

Now you've taken it a bit far.

You would feel good that you were granted something you did not deserve? You would feel good that others who may be more deserving were being unfairly treated?
and blacks don't feel good getting into college even if they don't deserve it, simply because they were born black?

I see nothing other than mental illness that can account for feeling guilty for something that is not your fault - not if the word is being used properly, anyways.
Perhaps a better word might be "badly" or "sad" or "upset." I have felt all of those when I consider that many have been badly treated for things beyong their control, such as skin color, race, poverty, etc.

Would I feel guilty about this? No, of course not - I am not the one being unfairly discriminatory.

Would I feel good about it? Of course not - it is an insult to me and an injustice done to the man in question.
Really? So you don't feel that because you are a woman, you are already disadvantaged and them hiring you was evening the odds?(which is the main argument for AA)

and blacks don't feel good getting into college even if they don't deserve it, simply because they were born black?

There really aren't any programs that will actually do that these days - at least not that would be upheld.

But the answer would still be no. Most black people I have known would be highly insulted if they got into college simply because they were black.

Really? So you don't feel that because you are a woman, you are already disadvantaged and them hiring you was evening the odds?(which is the main argument for AA)

No, I don't feel that way, nor is it the main argument for AA. It would be the argument behind a quota system - which is simply not allowed (as it is simply discrimination).

AA can describe all sorts of things. When I, as a female engineer went to tutor students at a local school, part of the idea was to demonstrate to young females (and young males) that math and science are not purely the realm of men - that women can and do succeed at them and can be interested in them. This was AA - as it was aimed at evening the odds - in a way that was not, itself discrimination.

You are using a false analogy here. You really aren't "you" until a certain point in development.

Let's move into something that makes a bit more sense in light of the conversation.

Suppose I put in for a job. Suppose a man put in for the same job. Suppose the man is more qualified, but I get the job because I am female.

Would I feel guilty about this? No, of course not - I am not the one being unfairly discriminatory.

Would I feel good about it? Of course not - it is an insult to me and an injustice done to the man in question.

I never said you did or that you should feel guilty. Would you, however, as the poster I was replying to stated he would, feel good about being handed a job you were unqualified for just because you were white?
To me at least, there is a vast difference between feeling guilty for who and what you are ( or for what your ancestors did ), and feeling good because you have an unfair advantage. Personally, to use your example, I wouldn't want to work for an organization that considered anything but competence when making hiring decisions, and would in fact, feel guilty for accepting a job with them and going against my principles.

There really aren't any programs that will actually do that these days - at least not that would be upheld.

But the answer would still be no. Most black people I have known would be highly insulted if they got into college simply because they were black.
Well what if them being black gave them an advantage into getting to college, and they would be let in over a white person with slightly superior qualifications?

No, I don't feel that way, nor is it the main argument for AA. It would be the argument behind a quota system - which is simply not allowed (as it is simply discrimination).

AA can describe all sorts of things. When I, as a female engineer went to tutor students at a local school, part of the idea was to demonstrate to young females (and young males) that math and science are not purely the realm of men - that women can and do succeed at them and can be interested in them. This was AA - as it was aimed at evening the odds - in a way that was not, itself discrimination.
Now getting really off topic, I do not oppose telling women that they can suceed in science and math just like men. I oppose accepting minorities over white males with superior qualifications, simply because they are minorities.

To me at least, there is a vast difference between feeling guilty for who and what you are ( or for what your ancestors did ), and feeling good because you have an unfair advantage. Personally, to use your example, I wouldn't want to work for an organization that considered anything but competence when making hiring decisions, and would in fact, feel guilty for accepting a job with them and going against my principles.

Exactly! That is the point I was making.

The person to whom I was replying said that they not only didn't feel guilty, but in fact felt good about being the recipient of unfair practices.

Exactly! That is the point I was making.

The person to whom I was replying said that they not only didn't feel guilty, but in fact felt good about being the recipient of unfair practices.
Agreement at last! :D

Now getting really off topic, I do not oppose telling women that they can suceed in science and math just like men. I oppose accepting minorities over white males with superior qualifications, simply because they are minorities.

The point is that these things really don't happen much. They happen occasionally, when someone misuses or misunderstands the system. However, it is no longer a common occurance for a highly qualified white male to be turned away from a job and a less qualified minority hired instead.

Timeline, timeline. By the 15th-16th century those practices were long forgotten.




And Georgian Britain, which I suggested later, which certainly had all the elements of homosexuality, femininity in men, and paedophilia, that was far later. So these practices were not long forgotten. Besides, timeline means precisely squat. They didn't conform to a christian timeline, so cannot be judged by it... why not judge aliens far more advanced than us to the same timeline and call ourselves unwashed, primitive barbarians? They inevitably exist somewhere.

Really? So you don't feel that because you are a woman, you are already disadvantaged and them hiring you was evening the odds?(which is the main argument for AA)

I hate to bring this up but a lot of Affirmative Action programs have either lapsed or been struck down by the courts.

Myself, I am a white male of middle class background and represent the 9th Generation (the tail end of the baby boomers) of White settlers of British origin (Scots Irish, Welsh and English in my case) that has lived in this country.

Of course I have benefited from that. Would I change it? No, I have a family to support, dreams to reach and all of that. Do I feel sympathy for people who did not have those advantages? yes, but not guilt.

People of my background have benefited clearly. Hell, we started the country, conquered the frontier, etc (the list is endless). Along the way though we changed our outlook. Sometimes because it was forced on us, sometimes because we saw it was the right thing to do.

Eventually all will benefit, and now most do. When all benefit, as I firmly (ok, idealistically) believe will happen some day, it will atone for the abuses of my ancestors.

Guilt isn't the answer. Action is.

White males have it worse, not better, because we don't have affirmative action, "BLACK enterntainment televison", white-only groups like NAACP (well we do, but KKK is not really like NAACP).
At the inception of BET, MTV had a policy not to play black artists. The only chance to see black characters was a mugger on Hill Street Blues (overstated, not entirely true) or the Cosby Show. In essence, all television was White Entertainment Television.

The NAACP is a group that watches out for a minority, because a majority watches out for itself and doesn't need a group to do that for it. Contrary to how people would like to paint it, Affirmative Action did not work on the principle of someone showing up and saying, "I'm black, gimme." (though it dealt with a problem of advantage too far down the line, it would have been better improve the access at an earlier age to allow for achievement and then agressively pursue cases of discrimination-but even that has flaws-mostly that the latter is hard to prove). But either way, at the time it was clear that unless something was done the gates where going to be held shut.

At the inception of BET, MTV had a policy not to play black artists. The only chance to see black characters was a mugger on Hill Street Blues (overstated, not entirely true) or the Cosby Show. In essence, all television was White Entertainment Television.

The NAACP is a group that watches out for a minority, because a majority watches out for itself and doesn't need a group to do that for it. Contrary to how people would like to paint it, Affirmative Action did not work on the principle of someone showing up and saying, "I'm black, gimme." (though it dealt with a problem of advantage too far down the line, it would have been better improve the access at an earlier age to allow for achievement and then agressively pursue cases of discrimination-but even that has flaws-mostly that the latter is hard to prove). But either way, at the time it was clear that unless something was done the gates where going to be held shut.
Sings: "It's the end of the world as we know it!" Again, I must agree. :eek:

Some action is better than no action at all.

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?

I am part German and I do not feel guilty, I never will.
Sure it was bad and sure my country men and women had a part in it but that was 60 years ago and I was not even born then.
She should not feel guilty.
I had a graet-grandfather who was an officer in the German infantry during WWII and I am proud of him, he fought the Russians.
He was a professional soldier, patriot and joined the Army before 1933 and before Hitler came to power and he was not a Nazi member.
He was captured 6 times by the Russians and all 6 times he escaped and rejoined the lines. A true hero.

Sings: "It's the end of the world as we know it!" Again, I must agree. :eek:

Some action is better than no action at all.
Wow, and I'm only likely to be on for another half hour or so. We might end off an genial terms. It's a world of wonders

At the inception of BET, MTV had a policy not to play black artists. The only chance to see black characters was a mugger on Hill Street Blues (overstated, not entirely true) or the Cosby Show. In essence, all television was White Entertainment Television.

I don't know how old you are but....

shows that appealed to a Black audience with primarily Black casts or stars include:

Whats Happening, Good Times, Julia, Sanford and Son, and several others, most of which where hits or quasi hits in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s.....

that trend has accelerated.

I was around when MTV started, and remember very clearly numerous Black artists appearing.... however, MTV was primarily a Rock and Pop venue, and R & B was not in its core audience graphic... hence little comparatively speaking R & B or Rap was played or shown. Of course for the last 10 years MTV doesnt really show videos, but that is another issue altogether.

VH1 took its place in that regard, and was aimed at the same audience. BET started around the same time and was aimed at a different audience.

Its called diversity, and free market enterprise.

I don't know how old you are but....

shows that appealed to a Black audience with primarily Black casts or stars include:

Whats Happening, Good Times, Julia, Sanford and Son, and several others, most of which where hits or quasi hits in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s.....

that trend has accelerated.

I was around when MTV started, and remember very clearly numerous Black artists appearing.... however, MTV was primarily a Rock and Pop venue, and R & B was not in its core audience graphic... hence little comparatively speaking R & B or Rap was played or shown. Of course for the last 10 years MTV doesnt really show videos, but that is another issue altogether.

VH1 took its place in that regard, and was aimed at the same audience. BET started around the same time and was aimed at a different audience.

Its called diversity, and free market enterprise.
Julia came about almost as an 'apology' for Bulia, created by the same person, and while a relatively good show was more or less a show about assimilation (the single black mother in a cast of whites.) Ether Rolle refused to do Good Times in it's inception because she was also written as a single mother and she wouldn't do the show without a husband. While initially a fairly good show, JJ Walker's "Dyno-mite" became reminicent of minstral protrayals, leaving the black audience feeling slightly betrayed. Sanford and Son also played largely into stereotypes, but that was mostly as a vehicle for the comedy of Redd Foxx. All of these shows where from the seventies, a reaction largely to the success of 'Blaxploitation' films (and as mentioned, some producers feeling that they needed to correct their records.

MTV is actually very honest about their early policy and regard it as a huge mistake. You did not see black artists on MTV until Micheal Jackson more or less forced the issue by becoming the huge star that he was.

And yes, I'm old enough to remember all of this. But, not relying on my memory, I've spent some time studying the issue as well.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty?
No. No to collective punishment. I say no to trans-generational guilt.

Julia came about almost as an 'apology' for Bulia, created by the same person, and while a relatively good show was more or less a show about assimilation (the single black mother in a cast of whites.) Ether Rolle refused to do Good Times in it's inception because she was also written as a single mother and she wouldn't do the show without a husband. While initially a fairly good show, JJ Walker's "Dyno-mite" became reminicent of minstral protrayals, leaving the black audience feeling slightly betrayed. Sanford and Son also played largely into stereotypes, but that was mostly as a vehicle for the comedy of Redd Foxx. All of these shows where from the seventies, a reaction largely to the success of 'Blaxploitation' films (and as mentioned, some producers feeling that they needed to correct their records.

MTV is actually very honest about their early policy and regard it as a huge mistake. You did not see black artists on MTV until Micheal Jackson more or less forced the issue by becoming the huge star that he was.

And yes, I'm old enough to remember all of this. But, not relying on my memory, I've spent some time studying the issue as well.

true enough ( I remember my Media Studies sociology class, although it was in the 1980s)

My point is that entertainment featuring Blacks has long been in the mainstream and continues... regardless of the motives of the producers..... and that BET wouldn't exist most probably without that groundwork.

I have to admit I never much cared for any of those shows (although I was pretty young when Julia came out, not exactly its audience).

Other television shows where Blacks prominantly appeared included a lot of PBS kids shows of that era, including Sesame Street, Zoom, and The Electric Company. Not to mention "Fat Albert and the Gang", or "I Spy" (Bill Cosby was the first really successful Black television actor) or "Mission Impossible" or to even a lesser extent "Saturday Night Life" (Garrett Morriss, so frequently underutilized but so consistantly good). Then of course came Eddie Murphy in the 1980s and practically instant stardom from that same show.

Progress has been made

Ok ok ok, First of, i dont feel guilty, im mexican/indian and some german. Get that out of the way. I want to know how the F*&^ african americans get so upset and start complaining bout 100's of years of oppression. Its your own ppl who sold your ancestors into slavery. The whites just were creating a buisness with the AA's. If you think your ancestors were really worried about how there ppl felt; then they wouldn't of sold your ancestors into slavory.


..... Sorry if thats seems harsh, but im sick of AA's complaining and blameing others...

true enough ( I remember my Media Studies sociology class, although it was in the 1980s)

My point is that entertainment featuring Blacks has long been in the mainstream and continues... regardless of the motives of the producers..... and that BET wouldn't exist most probably without that groundwork.

I have to admit I never much cared for any of those shows (although I was pretty young when Julia came out, not exactly its audience).

Other television shows where Blacks prominantly appeared included a lot of PBS kids shows of that era, including Sesame Street, Zoom, and The Electric Company. Not to mention "Fat Albert and the Gang", or "I Spy" (Bill Cosby was the first really successful Black television actor) or "Mission Impossible" or to even a lesser extent "Saturday Night Life" (Garrett Morriss, so frequently underutilized but so consistantly good). Then of course came Eddie Murphy in the 1980s and practically instant stardom from that same show.

Progress has been made
Certainly progress has been made, but there is always a 'two steps forward, two steps back' ebb and flow. But I was refuting the notion of "why don't we have white entertainment television" without resorting to the joke "You do, it's called CBS" because that would have devolved the conversation. Even by the time BET came along we had already come a long way from "Amos & Andy," but the lesson there it's not merely a case of being 'on' television.

"I Spy" was remarkable in that Cosby was 'black without explination,' that is his character wasn't a 'special circumstance' or 'written black' but rather a character that happened to be black. But that and Garret Morris as cast members on what where essentially white shows did not black television make, which is the case for the inception of BET. Nowadays, I think Boondocks has BETs number in that it has become in part 'booty shakin' television'. I used to watch a lot of it because it was the only place I could hear jazz, but I haven't even cruised by it as of late (which means I should admit that the quoted Boondocks criticism may well have been adressed and I don't know)

You are using a false analogy here. You really aren't "you" until a certain point in development.

Let's move into something that makes a bit more sense in light of the conversation.

Suppose I put in for a job. Suppose a man put in for the same job. Suppose the man is more qualified, but I get the job because I am female.

Would I feel guilty about this? No, of course not - I am not the one being unfairly discriminatory.

Would I feel good about it? Of course not - it is an insult to me and an injustice done to the man in question.



I never said you did or that you should feel guilty. Would you, however, as the poster I was replying to stated he would, feel good about being handed a job you were unqualified for just because you were white?

Sorry, I was trying to say what you did, but you were far better. Didn't mean to come off the wrong way.

Ok ok ok, First of, i dont feel guilty, im mexican/indian and some german. Get that out of the way. I want to know how the F*&^ african americans get so upset and start complaining bout 100's of years of oppression. Its your own ppl who sold your ancestors into slavery. The whites just were creating a buisness with the AA's. If you think your ancestors were really worried about how there ppl felt; then they wouldn't of sold your ancestors into slavory.


..... Sorry if thats seems harsh, but im sick of AA's complaining and blameing others...
So cuplability only lies in the seller and not the buyer? Even if the buyer continues and legislates the issue, and continues the social reduction?

(not as simple as I'm making it either, but c'mon...)

I haven't read through the replies, so if this has been said, forgive me.

I'm very sorry for slavery and everything the settlers did to the Native Americans. It was horrible, and the people who did those things should feel (or should've felt) guilty and ashamed. But me, personally? I don't feel any guilt, because here's the thing: I was born in 1984. I had absolutely no part in any of that stuff. It's the same thing with racism and segregation (and I'm from Arkansas, so have I learned plenty about our recent past that is full of segregation and racism at an extreme level); I'm very sorry that racism played such a role in our history, but I don't feel guilty about it, because I'm not racist.

My German friend (first-generation American) doesn't feel guilty about the Holocaust, and her Jewish roommate doesn't make her feel guilty about it. But Helga's still sorry that it happened. As we all are, German or not.

I think some people just blur the line between regret and guilt.

I'm 3/4 German, 1/4 English. White all the way. But no, of course I'm not guilty. Why should I? Dumb question I think.

No, she should be proud to be a member of the Glorious Aryan race. The Jew invented the holohoax lie to undermine the Aryan race and shall perish under the Aryan race! Sieg heil, 14/88, etc!

Actually, that was a joke, but she shouldn't feel guilty for something she has no control over.

At the inception of BET, MTV had a policy not to play black artists. The only chance to see black characters was a mugger on Hill Street Blues (overstated, not entirely true) or the Cosby Show.

Then you are forgetting Bobby Hill, who was one of the main police officers featured on that show. Oh, and right, Denzel Washington, he was on St. Elsewhere as a lead in the same time also... hmmm....

;) How about all the Hispanics who are portrayed as drug lords, the Italians portrayed as Mafiosi, etc. etc. etc.?

;) How about all the Hispanics who are portrayed as drug lords, the Italians portrayed as Mafiosi, etc. etc. etc.?

I don't mind stereotyping based on nationality, in TV and film. English people make the best bad guys, which is why English people always get cast as the bad guys. Italians, generally, make the best mobsters, though I personally like Hong-Kong mobsters *see Hard Boiled* as well. It's just important that people recognise that the stereotypes aren't accurate, and people do need to make movies that don't always rely on nation based stereotypes.

I am mostly white and I don't feel any guilt over what whites have done in the past. Maybe it's because my family never set foot in America until the 20th century. It may also be because I have some Native American blood in me, making me technicly native American also.

One thing I don't get is why all these African Americans are complaining about slavery NOW. That institution was banned in 1863 and went into effect everywhere in 1865 when the North won the Civil War. Some of them weren't even in the US until relatively recently. There was segregation, I'll give them that, but to ride the road to easier street because of something not even their great-great grandparents experienced is just stupid. There were whites who were against them. There were whites that helped them. Not even the Jews or Native Americans have joined in this crazy movement even though they suffered more recently.

Work isn't a white and Mexican only idea. Maybe if we stopped going so easily on those who refuse to work with all this Affirmative action, they would work harder and be more successful. Slavery was racist. Affirmative Action is racist because it basicly says that minoritiies are weak. Two wrongs never made a right. Don't hate me. I am part minority.

Then you are forgetting Bobby Hill, who was one of the main police officers featured on that show. Oh, and right, Denzel Washington, he was on St. Elsewhere as a lead in the same time also... hmmm....

;) How about all the Hispanics who are portrayed as drug lords, the Italians portrayed as Mafiosi, etc. etc. etc.?
Thus the caveat. Or the obvious notion that I really didn't watch too much of that show. Or, as I later stated, that a black actor in a otherwise white cast does not a 'black show' make. You got what I meant though, I suspect. The latter goes to what ends that(my) post, that race in the US is not a binary issue.

;)But I suspect you already already knew all of that...

I don't mind stereotyping based on nationality, in TV and film. English people make the best bad guys, which is why English people always get cast as the bad guys. Italians, generally, make the best mobsters, though I personally like Hong-Kong mobsters *see Hard Boiled* as well. It's just important that people recognise that the stereotypes aren't accurate, and people do need to make movies that don't always rely on nation based stereotypes.
The problem is when you're under-represented, representation carries more weight. So if you've got one positive (but criticizable) repersentation and 30 negative ones it can become an issue. We're not worried about seeing a white rapist representing white dudes because there are plenty of Matlocks, Father Dowlings, 7th Heavens, etc (I went for the gooney, don't read too much into that) to outweigh it.

That being said, sometimes drug dealers happen to be hispanic, mobsters Italian, etc. When constructing a narrative how much are you obligied to counterhegemony and how much to the story? For that matter, how sure are you that what you are putting in your story isn't a result of hegemony? It's complex.

I'm White. I sometimes feel guilty about not using enough sunscreen. Thankfully, my Mexican gardner does most of the outside work at the hacienda. When I'm on the golf course, the black dude that carries my clubs keeps an eye on me to make sure I'm not getting too much sun. If I'm not careful, my white-white skin can get overly dry. It's my fault when this happens because my Asian houseboy is always reminding me to use lotion. Since I moved to Arizona, I have really begun to see how unfair the whole sun situation is to white people. When is whitey ever going to catch a break?

Only the truly pathetic feel the need too use the sins (or accomplishments) of their forefathers as a representation of themselves. I don't care if my father was a direct descendent of Hitler or <insert name of person who you think is really great here (if you think Hitler is really great, insert needle into eye)> I have to determine my own reputation and life.

So the answer is no.

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?

I'm from New Zealand. Europeans treated the Maori like shit but we were still far far better than any other country colonised where shooting natives was basically a sport (like in the US, australia etc). I feel ok.

I again admit to being totally mystified by this statement. As best I can tell, it's impossible for anyone to "assume" guilt. An individual is either guilty of something or he/she is not. There is no in-between. And as I indicated before, if I am in fact not guilty, then why should I feel guilty?
There is no reason why you should feel guilt I spoke of. It's not a reasonable or rational thing we're talking about. Like other aspects of the mind/heart/soul, from our perspective it just happens.

You cannot be guilty for an association that just happens. If I am on an airplane and one person in the airplane shoots a flight attendent, I am not guilty of murder, despite being associated with all the people on the plane.
Quite true; you cannot be guilty, but it is possible to feel a guilty feeling assumed on behalf of associates for their actions.

I do not feel guilt because of the actions of my race, gender, or nationality.

Those things aren't supposed to define a person, remember?

Governments that were responsible, however, have a duty to rectify crimes of the past.

but the people support the government.

I'm a white male American. I carry no guilt or shame for anything whatsoever. I'm living a clean, honest life. I am raising healthy, intelligent well behaved children. My family treats people the way we want to be treated and we frequently go out of our way to assist others that need it. Often annonymously. Often at a sacrafice.
We will never carry guilt or shame for things we didnt do and likely wouldnt have done. And no one gave us what we have. And we didnt take it away from someone else. We appreciate what we have and dont take anything in our lives for granted.

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?

I feel kind of ashamed at what some of my ancestors may have been involved in, but I can't say I am guilty. I mean, I don't walk around with this huge weight on my shoulders because of something that happened quite a while back.

To say I feel guilt is farthest from the truth. To admit guilt means you did something wrong or feel you did, and I feel nothign wrong with the actions of my ancestors

Well, this begs the question. Should non-whites feel guilty? I mean europe is fairly impoverished as a place, and really quite tiny. Also the climate sucks and it is hardly a bread basket.

Despite this, it gave the world the enlightenment, a conception of human rights, and the rest.

And turn it on it's head. To ask the question "Whites.. do you feel guilty", implies a cultural and racial supremicism, from which non-whites are free to judge the collective actions of the white race. Which is exactly the type of thing that non-whites have complained about whites doing since western culture told them it was okay to complain.

In short, this is bullshit.

I have absolutely ZERO guilt about anything anybody other then ME has done...i.e. I have no racial guilt for being white.

I feel guilty. I made it all happen.

I'm God.

Guilt, no. Shame, yes. I am very ashamed of whites. Especially Pat Boone for his rendition of Tutti Frutti. Worst atrocity committed by a white, if you ask me.

The contribution of England to the world was on the whole very positive, so i feel no guilt about my anglican roots.

The norwegians harmed no one but the rest of the europeans, and have since established the greatest society in the world, so i feel nothing but pride looking to them.

I have no connection to the whites that currently hurt the world, and nothing but loathing for them anyways, so I do not rank myself among their number.

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?

A friend of mine would say that, if she feels really guilty for something she's not responsible for, then she needs a shrink. And I'm with him on that one. This guilt-tripping needs to stop. I don't think that any German, Austrian or whatever who was born after the war should feel guilty for what happened. It's stupid. They weren't even around when it happened, so how can they feel guilty for something they didn't do? I think it's like feeling guilty for a traffic accident where you're not even involved.

It's the past, get the fuck over it. And personally... I'm bored about all the whining about the Holocaust that's still going on. It's been 60 years, really, get the fuck over it.

I'm not even going to start on hwo the German government wasted milions on a completely fugly memorial that should be torn down at once. Why the hell did they plaster this square with more than 2,000 large concrete "things". It's ugly, it WILL attract actions from neo-nazis and it's a waste of money. Besides I don't get why German (and Austrian) politicians always have to guilt-trip their own people! I still think they should rather have made something like a peace park or something similar and not a bunch of fugly concrete blocs. Ugly and a waste of money. And then people wonder why right-winged parties are so successful...

As for the USA... well, the whole stuff with the natives has been more than 100 years ago. What's the point? It's history. I mean what's next? Italy apologizing for invading England under Caesar? Greek citizens feeling guilty because Alexander the Great beat the shit out of the Persians?

Oh please... it's history. Nobody should feel guilty for anything that happened before his or her birth. No matter how much you feel guilty, can you change it? Nope. Bit pointless, no?

What 'whites' have done to other races throughout history has been atrocious, but I would have to go with the general concensus here, that I feel no guilt, but possibly shame. To anyone whodoes feel guilty about it, I would be very curious as to why.

What 'whites' have done to other races throughout history has been atrocious, but I would have to go with the general concensus here, that I feel no guilt, but possibly shame. To anyone whodoes feel guilty about it, I would be very curious as to why.

What non-whites have done is also atrocious.

Not at all im openly proud of what my grandfathers did to people!

Not at all im openly proud of what my grandfathers did to people!

It is certainly not our fault that in the inter-racial battle of the bands, Whitey has rocked the hardest.

<snip>
Oh please... it's history. Nobody should feel guilty for anything that happened before his or her birth. No matter how much you feel guilty, can you change it? Nope. Bit pointless, no?

If you didn't do it, why should you feel guilty? It's illogical.

This is unusual for me, but I didn't bother to read this thread at all. I just don't want to hear the debate, so I'll weigh in and bugger off.

Guilty?

Not no, but HELL no.

My great grandfather immigrated from Prussia in 1856 and owned very little, let alone anyONE. I judge my own guilt based on *ding!* what [I]I[I] do and say and have very little patience for anyone who claims I need to feel guilt for something in which I wasn't even remotely complicit.

It would be an impossible task to track down all slave-owning families, companies whose lobbying supported things like Jim Crow laws, the lawmakers who passed them and everyone else who was complicit by commission or omission of racist acts.

Slavery was an unmitigated evil whose echoes are still being heard today. But taking money or conscience karma from me is not the answer. In a world whose mainstream culture is becoming more and more Black, and where I feel like an outsider whenever I pull up to a bass-flooded red light or encounter some other hip-hopped aspect of modern life, I don't really feel like I owe any non-White anything. The dream is out there for everyone, people. But remember, it's just a dream.

--snip--
As for the USA... well, the whole stuff with the natives has been more than 100 years ago. What's the point? It's history. --pins--

More than 100 years ago? Been to any of the reservations who haven't been fortunate or well-placed enough to land a casino? Some scars are still bleeding. The US government signed (hardy har-har) treaties with most of those tribes and lived up to very few of them. Around here the big whiners are sport fishermen. You know what I say? Fuck 'em. I thought the whole point of fishing was to enjoy the time regardless of what hits the hook. Reflexively, however, the tribes have got to stop fishing with indiscriminate nets and other mass-catch conveniences if they really want their "rights" to be taken seriously. The Makah tribe up here a few years back were given the right to kill one grey whale a year for tribal religious/cultural purposes. I say fine, but dammit, using that .30 caliber cannon was ludicrous if you're talking about preserving a tradition.

Point is, the whole race mess is far from black and white (pun partially intended). Both sides of most of these issues need to edge closer to compromise rather than cowering in stridence.

Let me explain before you take the title at face value and start answering in a silly manner (DC...). I was talking to a German girl (in my French class) who said that she feels like the collusion of her grandparents with the Nazis was a shame she could never live down. Now, the Holocaust is somewhat more recent than say, the genocide of Native Americans, so perhaps her guilt has some foundation, but I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

Her recent ancestors supported a regime that committed unspeakable atrocities. Those atrocities are recognised as such in the international community, but she herself did not participate in them. Should she feel guilty? Should the decendants of ANYONE who has committed atrocities (or supported them, again, like the genocide of Native Americans, slavery, etc etc) feel guilty? What could they possibly do to expunge their FEELINGS of guilt?

I for one am torn. Yes, I want people in the present to recognise that what their forefathers did was bad. I want some effort to be made to right past wrongs, and I want people to acknowledge what those wrongs were....but I don't see how wandering around with this guilt on your shoulders is either constructive, or particularly healthy. I aim this at white people (disregard the fact that race is a farce) because it is commonly said (mostly by white people:)) that they are being made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, etc. Thoughts?


People are individuals. To feel proud 'of' something that you didn't achieve yourself, but just because some other guy of your race, country, family...or other denominations, is in a way racism. Likewise, nobody...I feel...should feel guilty because of their 'family' linkes with the Nazis...etc

Thoughts?

Though I personally feel no guilt as a white person in America today, being that both of my parents are first generation immigrants from Sicily and Ireland, I still understand and respect where blacks, and for that matter, other minorities are coming from. It hardly surprises me, the rhetoric of the Nation of Islam members that one might see preaching from various busy city street corners.

Though it is a message filled with hate, and indeed, hate for whites who clearly carry no responsibility for injustices perpetrated on blacks in the past, it does not shock me in the least.

I often wonder if I would not be that angry, rhetoric filled, venom spewing member of some modern day tribe if my ancestors were subjected to all that blacks went through in the early years of America.....

People are individuals. To feel proud 'of' something that you didn't achieve yourself, but just because some other guy of your race, country, family...or other denominations, is in a way racism. Likewise, nobody...I feel...should feel guilty because of their 'family' linkes with the Nazis...etc

A very good point. Well said.

People are individuals. To feel proud 'of' something that you didn't achieve yourself, but just because some other guy of your race, country, family...or other denominations, is in a way racism. Likewise, nobody...I feel...should feel guilty because of their 'family' linkes with the Nazis...etc
Pride, however, is sometimes a counter-reaction to a cultural pressure to feel shame. In the instance of minorities in America there is the 'open' cultural pressure up until the 60's and the 'quiet' pressure since then to feel ashamed or 'less than,' and pride movements are a counter-reaction to that, in effect standing up and saying that 'We will not be ashamed.'

I am not impying that you, WadeGabriel, are doing the following. Just continuing a line of thought-

Now, one can understand that circumstance and what is being done or one can read that as an exclusion or afront and react threatened by it-which, given the actual circumstances of it ends up looking badly. By reacting badly, in essence, it becomes a self-full filling act. "We will not be ashamed." "You shouldn't do that," in effect saying that they should be ashamed, if accidently. The fact is that 'gay pride' or 'black pride' doesn't take anything away from me as a straight white dude but rather counters the notion that they should be ashamed of who they are. Just 'cause Johnny gets a lollipop doesn't mean that I need to get a lollypop, too. I don't need a parade or a week or a month. It doesn't take anything away from me if someone else gets one. There might be a small group that would say I should be ashamed, but they don't understand the argument any better and they don't have the cultural institution to do anything other than make a little noise.

I'm a first generation Canadian of German background on both sides. I feel no guilt whatsoever for what happened in WWII. Shock, horror, sadness, righteous indignation and even inspiration (from those that managed to survive the camps and not be bitter or vengeful) yes, but guilt no. I'm a Canadian, not a German for one thing. As for what my family did during the war, I have no reason to be ashamed. One of my grandfathjers died @ Penemunde...he was a resistance fighter sent there to do slave labour. One of my great uncles died in a concentration camp...he was a homosexual. One of m,y great-uncles was a Captain in the SS. My other grandfather was a war hero, his insubordination causing him to be stripped of his medals, twice. Big deal. It was a very fucked up place and time. Lets just make sure it never happens again.

There is no reason why you should feel guilt I spoke of. It's not a reasonable or rational thing we're talking about. Like other aspects of the mind/heart/soul, from our perspective it just happens.
My feelings are mine, no one else's. I own them, I am responsible for them. They don't control me, I control them. I can choose to be happy, or choose to not feel guilty.