NationStates Jolt Archive

Ha! And what of the other ancient gods, the one who came before? You deny their existence, you blaspheme the culture of millions, to worship one who would keep you in the dark? Now this is hilarious!
Has your god ever spoken to you? What has he said?
What can he give you? Power? No...you are not allowed to have power. You must be selfless, help those who deserve no help, who cannot help themselves, who do not deserve their pitiful lives.
Can he truly guide you if he has remained silent for so long? I can hear the words of the ancient gods whenever I wish. They have much to teach me, and I listen. I know I shouldn't be preaching, really, but I feel rather strongly on this issue. Who agrees with me? Anyone!

If I were you, I'd stop this nonsense before it's too late.


Go to hell; I'll see you there. I'll be sure to be extra nice to you.

I agree with the Apostles' Creed. I love God, our Lord Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Spirit...and He has forgiven my sins and is with me always. Amen! :)

Good for you. I don't believe one is saved or not saved, I believe one chooses good or evil by serving the wishes of either Ohrmazd or Ahriman. Your afterlife depends on what you choose, but hell itself is impermanant, because at a point, Ohrmazd will be victorious and the world will be purified of evil.

Having faith means believing that Jesus Christ is the Lord, our God; He is the savior of our sins, despite the lack of what we may call "concrete evidence."

You may not believe in what the Bible says for various reasons, perhaps for its contradictions and mysteries. But life is full of contradictions and mysteries, and so are we as human beings.

Nothing is really certain, right? I wouldn't trust or completely rely on our own capabilities as human beings in this world; we are imperfect, dishonest, and full of faults. Life is that much scarier if we believe that we are the highest beings on this earth.

There is one indescribable, all-powerful source of truth in this world, and this is God. He created all things. He gave us the ability to have intelligent thought, to deduce, to infer, and to love.

It's difficult to believe if you can't open your heart to Him, maybe because of a cynical mind. Though, I tend to be pretty cynical too, sometimes.

i bilive that there is a higher being /or beings mainly teh second one but i onlly bilive the bible is suposed to be a storybook that teaches good morals and a good life not as an infalable truth :)

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

I belevie in Jesus and am a christian. Being a christian just dosnt mean you go to church or know a few scripture. It means haveing a relationship with the lord Jesus christ. You become a christian by asking Jesus to forgive your sins and asking him to come into your heart. You admit that you are a sinner and need to be forgiven. going to church is a good thing dont get me wrong, but that is not the definition of a christian. John 3:16 says that God so loved the world that he gave his only son that who ever beleives in him will not die but have eternal life. that is the only way to heaven and the only way to become a christian.
God's Peace
Nation of Shire

Having faith means believing that Jesus Christ is the Lord, our God; ....

Wait, wait, wait. Stop right there.

Having faith does not means believing in Jesus. What about the Muslim faith, the Hindu faith or the many different faiths that exist in the world?

Please. Look up words before deciding that having faith means having faith in your specific religion and no one else's.

Wait, wait, wait. Stop right there.

Having faith does not means believing in Jesus. What about the Muslim faith, the Hindu faith or the many different faiths that exist in the world?

Please. Look up words before deciding that having faith means having faith in your specific religion and no one else's.

well since this topic dwells on Christianity, the guy's statement fits.

given the topic, it could be said that he/she was not excluding other religions... rather writing what Christian faith means.

well since this topic dwells on Christianity, the guy's statement fits.

given the topic, it could be said that he/she was not excluding other religions... rather writing what Christian faith means.
Possibly. But then he/she should have been more specific.

Having faith is not the same thing as having the Christian faith...

You make a lot of assumptions of such … I have no faith and religion does not determine my morals but I am still able to formulate both my ethics and my morals without the help of religion

What is to say others could not do the same

humans need help... we're flawed.

if we had to come up with our own "morals" we'd be utterly lost. Thankfully we had the Ten Commandments and JEsus' tachings, which formed much of the basis for English Common Law (at least)... which formed the basis for US law.

Possibly. But then he/she should have been more specific.

Having faith is not the same thing as having the Christian faith...

Having Christian faith is one example of having faith.

I could have faith in a bug... it would be an example of having faith. hehe

Damn. 37% is a huge number of Christians, given the number of Europeans here. That certainly changed my impression of this forum.. I was thinking maybe 10%, at the most. Weird. :confused:

Damn. 37% is a huge number of Christians, given the number of Europeans here. That certainly changed my impression of this forum.. I was thinking maybe 10%, at the most. Weird. :confused:

Pretty surprising eh?

That is.. IF you actually believe the stats... and everything you read on the internet.... uh duh...

:D

Having Christian faith is one example of having faith.

I could have faith in a bug... it would be an example of having faith. hehe

Actually the most popular false gods you can put your faith in are:

money
government
jobs
possessions (cars, bling, etc)


There are more.. this is just the top 4

Now Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. By Faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what is visable. Hebrews 11:1,3
This is the meaning of Faith. We do a lot of things in faith.
And for you Athiest
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who dose good. God looks down from Heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. Everyone has turned away they have together become corrupt; there is no one who dose good, not even one. will the evildoers never learn-- those who devour my people as men eat bread and who do not call on God? Oh that Salvation would come out of Zion! Psalms 53:1-4,6
You can recive this salvation today! Its not to late.
John 3:16 says that God so loved the world that he gave his only son that who ever believes in him will not die but have eternal life.
Jesus was tortured, and beaten, and hung on a cross for all people. He took on the sins of the world everyones sins. You have sinned trust me. He died in our place so that we would not have to go through with our punishment. He died and rose again. He showed that he could conqure death and save the world by doing this. thats God's love for you and yet you reject it. If you want to be saved pray to Jesus admit that you have sinned, ask for his forgivness and ask him into your heart. Please do this. stop rejecting Gods gift. BELEIVE IN THE ONE WHO SAVED YOU AND TOOK YOUR PLACE.
Gods Peace
Nation of shire

My problem with Christianity is, as you said, that it has generally turned into a "monstrocity."

So many Christians like to point the finger at people they think aren't living the holy life, and conveniently forget Jesus' phrase: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

i am a christian and i have to disagree. no true christian should point the finger at anyone (although it does go on). Christ came to save the sinners not the holy and anyone and everyone should be accepted equally, whatever race religion or past they have. that is the whole point. and everyone sins even christians, which again is why Jesus was sent to die for us. so we can all be forgiven of our sins, past, present and future. the only difference between christians and anyolne else is that they belive in Jesus and want to follow in His ways to improve and better themselves. which is possible to anyone with the help of God. all He wants is for us to do our best and come to Him of our own free will. there are many cults and demoninations that corrupt the biblical teachings of Christ for their own gain but if you follow the bible and its teachings you cant go far wrong. and to answer an earlier quote there are no rules to follow. you can do what you want but if you belive that Christ came to earth to die for our sins you choose the right way to live and you know what is right and wrong. and that is the key. you choose. you can carry on living your life in sin and doing things you know are wrong whether socially acceptable or not, or you can start doing things right. and to know God leads you down that path. He is our saviour and will never leave us. but the choice is up to the individual. there is no pressure. "seek and you will find" amen.

God gives us free will but he will always be calling us. I am not trying to put pressure on anyone but, no one knows when Jesus will return and I want to reach out to as many people as I can before christs returen. Jesus is the only way to Heaven and to God. I love Jesus with all of my Heart and Soul and Mind. There are commandments that Jesus gave us though that we need to live by.
Love thy neighbor as thyslef. (Meaning do unto others as you want them to do to you) and Though shall love the lord your God with All your Heart Mind and Soul. If you follow these two commandments then the 10 comandments will fall right into line behind them. Jesus came in love and died for all sinners.
God's Peace
Nation of Shire

I agree with the Apostles' Creed. I love God, our Lord Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Spirit...and He has forgiven my sins and is with me always. Amen! Good for you...

Thanks Parthians! I was afraid no one would read my testament of faith buried all the way in the back of this thread, but at least you did! :)

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." ~Isaiah 55:11

Thanks Parthians! I was afraid no one would read my testament of faith buried all the way in the back of this thread, but at least you did! :)

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." ~Isaiah 55:11

Its what you believe, and I don't criticize beliefs that aren't obviously contradictory or impossible (ie the Schizophrenic who believes they talk to large white rabbits, which really don't exist.)

I haven't taken the time to read the whole thread so someone might have metioned this, almost every single culture in this world ,before being affected by the others and ,without having contact with them, believed in some kind of supreme being, I don't think that is a coincidence. I think the human mind is programmed to believe in some kind of supreme being. Some people have been able to come over it, but everyone has a bit of a hunch there might be something, plus I find it weird how much people are close to being hurt, or just are lucky they aren't killed. I definitely believe in God, Jesus, although i believe in evolution.

Yes. I am a Christian. I know that isn't a popular thing to say right now because it isn't a "popular" thing to do right now. I guess it is more easy to dismiss God than to admit that people can not control everything. I know there is a God because of the things that have happened in my life that have no explantions only that God loves me and looks over me. And all of us for that matter. People want answers about God. They ask why all the time. All that I can say about unanswered questions is one day I will know the answers when I reach Heaven. There are to many beautiful things in this world for there not to be God.

Here's a real wise tip .. and it's for free...

When you get all emotional, you can be most easily manipulated.. Your logical half of the brain and your emotional half cannot be in control at the same time...

Advertisers and politicians and lawyers know and understand this.. The sooner you do, the sooner you will no longer be able to be easily victimized...

No charge...

lol, gee thanks...

I don't think that anyone, at least not me, is saying that you (global) don't have the right to believe in the word of God or whomever or that it is wrong. And if the thread is about celebrating all that is connected with Christianity, then those of us who do not believe in it, need not apply because we have no place in bashing or spreading opposing views about it.

I just hope that you understand that it is possible to celebrate what is good about your religion without proclaiming that those who don't subscibe to it are wrong or misguided.

I dont believe in the slightest. I think its nieve and ridiculous but also I think you are free to believe it if you want. The teachings in the bible are mostly very good and true christianity is good for the world and people I feel.

They're position is by far and away most often an act of revenge on a god that they hate... who in fact is no god at all. Most atheists are reacting to various misrepresentations of the real God that they'd fall in love with if they ever encountered someone that obsessed with love. :fluffle:

It is true that you cannot prove such a God exists by any modernist means, such as rational proof that would stand up in court or evidence that could be tested in a lab. But such quests are neither sufficient nor necessary. They simply demonstrate the naive lust for certainty that can never pierce the cloud of unknowing. :headbang:

On the other hand, God is not about proof and certainty. The good postmodern restorationist is about sufficient warrant (which can be accumlated outside the courts and the labs) and confidence (which is more akin to trust and faith). One of the troubles was that Christians tended to try to win their battles in the courts and labs and ended up looking even stupider (and meaner) in the end. They might have rather tried Jesus' own methods: love, justice, mercy, challenging the status quo and the religious sanhedrin, standing for the marginalized and messy. If that's a Christian, sign me up. In fact, check us out at www.clarion-journal.ca.

But if by Christian you mean whatever it is that Dobson or Falwell or Bush is... :gundge: The broad road that leadeth to destruction is all about the church wearing the flag of the empire and bombing the hell out of people in the name of Jesus. And no, it's not enough to sign the apostle's creed either. On both scores, it was Jesus that said, "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will get in." The "sinner's prayer" is no magic password. It's those who actually hear and follow the way He set... NOT asking Jesus to rubber-stamp your missiles just because we protested abortion.

Yes indeed, many will be surprised at who's in and who's not one day (Matt. 25). So as for me,... I'm into Jesus and even His church. But the Western cultural phenomenon known as evangelical Christianity... the last Harpers magazine left me cringing.

bj

im a muslim but we belive in chritianity...just like we belive in judaism


But Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to get eternal life in Heaven because He's the one who payed the price for our rebellion rather than us. So how can you be a muslim and yet believe in Christianity because if you truly believed Christianity then you'd believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, therefore making any other attempt at getting there (i.e. Islam or Judaism) absolutely pointless... just a thought.

Please remember that Christianity is not a set of rules that if you live by them most of the time then you get to heaven. Thats complete and utter rubbish. If this were the way, then heaven would be empty because no one could be that good.

Remember this is heaven where the most holy God lives, even a small thing done wrong makes us unworthy to be with him. So a list of rules and regs is just pointless.

So Christianity isnt rules but a relationship. This relationship was made possible not by man, so that no one can boast, but by God, sending his only son to pay the punishment we deserved, so that we can go to heaven.

No other "religion" has this free, undeserved gift known as grace. This is what makes the offer of Christ so radical. Its not a religion but a relationship.

When you become a Christian, the bible says you become free, and the bondage of sin is broken. Sin being the self-gratifying, selfish, me first, desires we all have. We are free and can live a life to the full, just as God created us for.

God is amazing please think really hard about Him.

I challenge you to pray to God and say something along the lines of:

"God, if you're out there, please show yourself to me, so that I may know whether you exist or not."

Even if you've never prayed before, do it and then look into a few things about Christianity, true Christianity i mean, not all those people who tell you about the rules but about the freedom that we can obtain only through Jesus.

GOD ROCKS

Andy

For this post above, all i have to say is, wow (claps).

I do personally believe that these atheist that believe God needs to be proven by concrete evidence dont understand the truw meaning of Christianity and thuse follow old stereo types. Its the belief in a Divine Order in the world that fuels the belief of of Father Almighty. Whats interesting, is that when u ask an athesit whats the purpose of life, the usuall answer is to be happy, or just to live, or i find that some answer its to die. its the kindness and moralistic views of christianity that make us christians believe that its important to do good to others while we have this time on earth. And to further bring the Kingdom of Heaven down to earth.

I dont believe in the slightest. I think its nieve and ridiculous but also I think you are free to believe it if you want. The teachings in the bible are mostly very good and true christianity is good for the world and people I feel.

It's ok that you you don't believe.... but if the reason you don't believe is what you state, then it must be assumed you know and possess all the knowledge in the universe, and there is not the slightest possibility that you *may* have missed something...

Who is going to be the judge of what "true Christianity" means? Those of you who very possibly never even so much as cracked open Bible??

Now *THAT* is naive and ridiculous...

Quote:Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will get in." The "sinner's prayer" is no magic password. It's those who actually hear and follow the way He set...

If anyone else is looking for this verse it can be found in Matthew chapter 7 verse 21. Bj has a point with this. some evil doers can do miricals in Jesus' name but God works through them for his own reasons and not for the individual. when you pray the sinners paryer you will feel the holy sprit present in your life. He will guide you and help you to do the fathers will that is what this verse talks about. Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life he who belives in me will not die." Please pray the "Sinners Prayer" and let the Holy spirit rule in your life. Listien to God and Do his will. He is waiting for you to come to him today.
God's Peace
Nation of Shire. :D

Are you a Christian?
No.

GOD ROCKS

Andy[/QUOTE]

Your right. God gives us free will to either follow him or turn from him. What other religion gives you that? God is the only answer is can see. who else would love us so much to die for us and take on our punishment? Jesus is the only one I see that came and died for us and rising agin from the grave. what other religion gives you a second chance? what other religon had someone who loved them no matter how much they hurt him? condsider this. Think about God and seek him. he is always there for you and will never fail you. :D
Gods peace
Nation of shire

No.

Why arnt you a Christian?

What I mean by true christianity is simply someone who really does believe in the teachings of Jesus not the G.W Bush's of the world that go against everything he taught yet still claim to be christian. I was brought up Christian I have asked him to show himself to me which he wouldnt anyway. My granddad was the Vicar of my town and my family are christian but I stopped believing a long time ago. Part of it is the unfairness in the world that people suffer when they shouldnt. The time I stopped believing in any kind of god was when my cousin died of cancer after being told she was clear leaving a child of 3 and a widow behind. I just feel that there cant be a god when these kind of things happen and G.W lives very comfortably in the White House.

What I mean by true christianity is simply someone who really does believe in the teachings of Jesus not the G.W Bush's of the world that go against everything he taught yet still claim to be christian. I was brought up Christian I have asked him to show himself to me which he wouldnt anyway. My granddad was the Vicar of my town and my family are christian but I stopped believing a long time ago. Part of it is the unfairness in the world that people suffer when they shouldnt. The time I stopped believing in any kind of god was when my cousin died of cancer after being told she was clear leaving a child of 3 and a widow behind. I just feel that there cant be a god when these kind of things happen and G.W lives very comfortably in the White House.

That is a very interesting comparison.. God and GW... GW has the White House for only a few years... He is not God... People in the world suffer because of the sinful nature and deeds of other men.. I am afraid you very possibly may me blaming the wrong parties... Sorry to hear of your life misfortunes. Life isn't usually easy for any of us here....

Thanks for the response.. I am not here to advocate any religion or philosophy.. I just see an opportunity to discuss "possibilities"... It's a big universe, and I don't want to skip or omit anything in my explorations....

I don't know everything.. I probably don't know anything... If I don't listen to those who say something is impossible, I am very likely to find out it actually is possible... World didn't think powered flight was possible a few decades ago... heh.. Thanks!

Ha! And what of the other ancient gods, the one who came before? You deny their existence, you blaspheme the culture of millions, to worship one who would keep you in the dark? Now this is hilarious!
Has your god ever spoken to you? What has he said?
What can he give you? Power? No...you are not allowed to have power. You must be selfless, help those who deserve no help, who cannot help themselves, who do not deserve their pitiful lives.
Can he truly guide you if he has remained silent for so long? I can hear the words of the ancient gods whenever I wish. They have much to teach me, and I listen. I know I shouldn't be preaching, really, but I feel rather strongly on this issue. Who agrees with me? Anyone!

If I were you, I'd stop this nonsense before it's too late.


Go to hell; I'll see you there. I'll be sure to be extra nice to you.
Hey, Baal, um.....nice to see you stay civil and everything. No really, I appreciate you keeping an even temper. For real.

But guess what? In the Second Commandment, there's no claim that there are no other gods. Here, lemme quote this for ya, with the important parts conveniently bolded:
Thou shalt have no other gods before
me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any
graven image or any likeness of any thing
that is in heaven above, or that is in the
earth beneath, or that is in the water
under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down
thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, the
Lord thy God, am a jealous God, visiting
the iniquity of the fathers upon the chil-
dren unto the third and fourth generation
of them that hate me; and showing mercy
unto thousands of them that love me, and
keep my commandments.

Now where, in all of that, does it say "Dudes! Followers! Guess what....I'm the only one! Yeah, that pretty much takes care of all the other heretics in the world, lucky you, huh?" Yeah, I didn't see it either. Want more? Okay, Deuteronomy 6:14 "Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you". And before anybody gets onto this jealous God thing, or Exodus 23:14, I present you with this.....MANY ancient cultures had a jealous God. It's bourne of the ancient peoples' religious fears and misunderstandings of natural disasters. This means more than just the Romans and Jews, too; the Hindus, Mohammedans, the Maoris of New Zealand, the Fijians, the peoples of New Hebrides, the Santals of India, the Matabele....should I keep going? Because I can. If you want, I mean.

I just feel that there cant be a god when these kind of things happen and G.W lives very comfortably in the White House.[/QUOTE]

Pain came into our lives when Adam and Eve didnt listen to God. God has a reason for everything he dose. I have lost a friend to Cancer and many Pets too. I take my Pain to God and He comferts me he helps me through it, because he understands what you and I are going through. He came to earth in the form of Jesus and experinced pain and suffering. He lost his cousin John the Baptist. the bible says he wept over it. He suffered on the cross for everyones sake and he knows how we feel when we hurt. Just go to him and talk to him tell him of your hurt. he will help you through the pain and your trials. God loves you. He wants you to have a relationship with him. Go to him he is calling you. I will pray for you.
God's Peace
Nation of Shire

I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He decended into hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead. He accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God, from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and the Life everlasting. Amen.

And Amen. World without End.

Maharlikana

How can you be stupid enough to listen to this all the bullshit christianity and all religions for that matter feed you. Its just another form of control. Theres no proof there is an almighty god and the proof that he doesnt exist is that no one has ever spoke to him and he has never communicated in any way with us or shown a single sign to us. GOD WAS CREATED BY THE HUMAN MIND!!!. I honestly dont see how people can believe in religion theres no proof for any of it, its just believing what your told. Im a hard core athiest till the end or until god strikes me down but that will never happen. And about life everlasting thats another thing that draws people into religion the fear of dying well hate to break it to you but people just die ok then its over theres no after life is it that hard to believe life just ends?

How can you be stupid enough to listen to this all the bullshit christianity and all religions for that matter feed you. Its just another form of control. Theres no proof there is an almighty god and the proof that he doesnt exist is that no one has ever spoke to him and he has never communicated in any way with us or shown a single sign to us. GOD WAS CREATED BY THE HUMAN MIND!!!. I honestly dont see how people can believe in religion theres no proof for any of it, its just believing what your told. Im a hard core athiest till the end or until god strikes me down but that will never happen. And about life everlasting thats another thing that draws people into religion the fear of dying well hate to break it to you but people just die ok then its over theres no after life is it that hard to believe life just ends?
See, don't you hate it when Christians try to yell at you about their beliefs?

They feel the same way when you're just as much of a jerk.

So try not to be what you so vehemently hate, and maybe they'll leave you alone to your "hardcore atheism" (which you spelled incorrectly, so even harder-core! Rawk!) in your own little world while they practice freely in theirs.

And besides, God's not going to strike you down, because He gave that whole Free Will thing. He'll just leave you to the vultures, metaphorically speaking.

Jucitopia']No other "religion" has this free, undeserved gift known as grace. This is what makes the offer of Christ so radical. Its not a religion but a relationship.

Excuse me?

Almost every single religion has this free undeserved gift known as "you shall be saved" (which you call grace). Christianity is no different than Islam or Judaism. Even Buddhism says that, in the end, you will become one with the universe. Pray tell, what other religion have you studied before saying such monstrocities as that quote?

Don't read me wrong, I've nothing against Christianity per say. I just find it dubious that this one is the one and no other can be the one. Where's your reasoning behind that?

They're position is by far and away most often an act of revenge on a god that they hate... who in fact is no god at all. Most atheists are reacting to various misrepresentations of the real God that they'd fall in love with if they ever encountered someone that obsessed with love. :fluffle:

It is true that you cannot prove such a God exists by any modernist means, such as rational proof that would stand up in court or evidence that could be tested in a lab. But such quests are neither sufficient nor necessary. They simply demonstrate the naive lust for certainty that can never pierce the cloud of unknowing. :headbang:

On the other hand, God is not about proof and certainty. The good postmodern restorationist is about sufficient warrant (which can be accumlated outside the courts and the labs) and confidence (which is more akin to trust and faith). One of the troubles was that Christians tended to try to win their battles in the courts and labs and ended up looking even stupider (and meaner) in the end. They might have rather tried Jesus' own methods: love, justice, mercy, challenging the status quo and the religious sanhedrin, standing for the marginalized and messy. If that's a Christian, sign me up. In fact, check us out at www.clarion-journal.ca.

But if by Christian you mean whatever it is that Dobson or Falwell or Bush is... :gundge: The broad road that leadeth to destruction is all about the church wearing the flag of the empire and bombing the hell out of people in the name of Jesus. And no, it's not enough to sign the apostle's creed either. On both scores, it was Jesus that said, "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will get in." The "sinner's prayer" is no magic password. It's those who actually hear and follow the way He set... NOT asking Jesus to rubber-stamp your missiles just because we protested abortion.

Yes indeed, many will be surprised at who's in and who's not one day (Matt. 25). So as for me,... I'm into Jesus and even His church. But the Western cultural phenomenon known as evangelical Christianity... the last Harpers magazine left me cringing.

bj

How can you be stupid enough to listen to this all the bullshit christianity and all religions for that matter feed you. Its just another form of control. Theres no proof there is an almighty god and the proof that he doesnt exist is that no one has ever spoke to him and he has never communicated in any way with us or shown a single sign to us. GOD WAS CREATED BY THE HUMAN MIND!!!. I honestly dont see how people can believe in religion theres no proof for any of it, its just believing what your told. Im a hard core athiest till the end or until god strikes me down but that will never happen. And about life everlasting thats another thing that draws people into religion the fear of dying well hate to break it to you but people just die ok then its over theres no after life is it that hard to believe life just ends?

Wooo.. another individual with "issues" who has all the knowledge in the universe....

Mocking others beliefs is a really good indication you have no real knowledge of the subject... and you just want to vent your little spleen...

But thanks... What a waste of bytes...

I didnt mean that G.W. was god sorry. I understand that everyone suffers tragedy and that is my point. I dont understand this idea that people have to suffer for what the human race in general does. Its unfair and seems ridiculous to me. I apologise for my poor spelling. People live their lives and never hurt anyone and only do good and they get run over. If there is a god and a right and wrong(if god exists then it is not just an opinion) then why does this happen to them?

Wooo.. another individual with "issues" who has all the knowledge in the universe....

Mocking others beliefs is a really good indication you have no real knowledge of the subject... and you just want to vent your little spleen...

But thanks... What a waste of bytes...

You are right.
the bible dose say that a fool says in his heart that their is no God. Psalms 53 verse 1 if you are wondering.

Normally, I don't like to criticize other religions too much, but a few things here personally offended me and merited response.

Jucitopia']But Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to get eternal life in Heaven because He's the one who payed the price for our rebellion rather than us. So how can you be a muslim and yet believe in Christianity because if you truly believed Christianity then you'd believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, therefore making any other attempt at getting there (i.e. Islam or Judaism) absolutely pointless... just a thought.

It seems like you do indeed have a point, but from what I know about Islam, they believe the Christians are wrong in that Jesus never actually was indeed the progeny of your diety nor do I think they believe he died on the cross.


Please remember that Christianity is not a set of rules that if you live by them most of the time then you get to heaven. Thats complete and utter rubbish. If this were the way, then heaven would be empty because no one could be that good.

Yes, the moral standards, from what I know, are impossible for anyone to do. But then, what does provide the mechanism for salvation.


Remember this is heaven where the most holy God lives, even a small thing done wrong makes us unworthy to be with him. So a list of rules and regs is just pointless.

Then how can people be in there in the first place?


So Christianity isnt rules but a relationship. This relationship was made possible not by man, so that no one can boast, but by God, sending his only son to pay the punishment we deserved, so that we can go to heaven.

No other "religion" has this free, undeserved gift known as grace. This is what makes the offer of Christ so radical. Its not a religion but a relationship.

Most theistic religions are indeed a relationship. Its not truly radical, since such a case is common in Hinduism and not uncommon in my own faith. Zoroastrianism in the Iranian tradition emphasises more of the points of "Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds" than laws and customs.


When you become a Christian, the bible says you become free, and the bondage of sin is broken. Sin being the self-gratifying, selfish, me first, desires we all have. We are free and can live a life to the full, just as God created us for.

You are still tempted? Right? You aren't free from them, they still exist. I certainly do attempt to control myself, and I'm certain I do a fine job trying to live well.


God is amazing please think really hard about Him.

I challenge you to pray to God and say something along the lines of:

"God, if you're out there, please show yourself to me, so that I may know whether you exist or not."

Even if you've never prayed before, do it and then look into a few things about Christianity, true Christianity i mean, not all those people who tell you about the rules but about the freedom that we can obtain only through Jesus.


I believe in a diety, and yes, I do pray often. Now tell me why, other than threatening me with hell, why I should believe yours when I feel fairly convinced I am certain I am on the right path?

GOD ROCKS

Andy

I feel I should say that I am a complete atheist (obviously). I do want there to be a god I just dont believe it. Also, I would like to apologise for the few people on here who have mocked peoples beliefs. Although I agree with some of them it is wrong to mock someones beliefs, especially when none of us have proof just opinions.

I didnt mean that G.W. was god sorry. I understand that everyone suffers tragedy and that is my point. I dont understand this idea that people have to suffer for what the human race in general does. Its unfair and seems ridiculous to me. I apologise for my poor spelling. People live their lives and never hurt anyone and only do good and they get run over. If there is a god and a right and wrong(if god exists then it is not just an opinion) then why does this happen to them?

If God were to "control" anything here, he would take away man's "free will" to do the right thing, or do the wrong thing.... It's unfortunate that bad things happen to good people... But as long as there are bad people, that will continue.

If God (figurativly speaking) took control of everything and everyone, then what a tyrannical world this would be... We would simply be puppets at the mercy of a Supreme Being.. Sorry.. that would suck!

And these folks with their vitriol and God hatred would not exist.. Then who would be here to entertain everyone their disconnected emotional tirades??

I am injecting wry humor... No flames please....

Be happy that "God" has seen fit to give the world free-will.... But along with the rights of having free will.. are the responsibilities... According to His Book.... No free lunch for those who exercise free will... :D

I didnt mean that G.W. was god sorry. I understand that everyone suffers tragedy and that is my point. I dont understand this idea that people have to suffer for what the human race in general does. Its unfair and seems ridiculous to me. I apologise for my poor spelling. People live their lives and never hurt anyone and only do good and they get run over. If there is a god and a right and wrong(if god exists then it is not just an opinion) then why does this happen to them?

Sin seperates us from God. when Adam and Eve sinned that seperated the whole world from God. That allowed Satan in and his only pleasure is to hurt us and drive us away from God. Satan takes pleasure in seeing us suffer. Jesus came for us and Broke that barrior so that we are not seperated from God. Jesus felt pain and sorrow just as we do today. He knows how we feel becasue he experienced the samething we did. He knows are pain. God does help us through our times of pain and sorrow. Just pray and ask him. God answers every prayer, just not in the way you want. Remember that when you pray God hears you.
Gods Peace
Nation of shire

So what is heaven? If heaven is perfect then we must have no free will there as it is simply not possible for us to be perfect.

I feel I should say that I am a complete atheist (obviously). I do want there to be a god I just dont believe it. Also, I would like to apologise for the few people on here who have mocked peoples beliefs. Although I agree with some of them it is wrong to mock someones beliefs, especially when none of us have proof just opinions.

I, for one, appreciate the honesty of your post.... It's nice to see some compassion among all the other posts from those who call themselves "atheist"...

Thanks for being real....

I'm not a Christian, I'm a Unitarian Universalist Pagan and a Scientific Pantheist.
I don't see why people have to be so extreme about these things though. In my opinion, we'll never really be able to prove that god or gods exist, but we most likely won't be able to prove that they don't exist either. It's just one of those things things that can never really be resolved, so there's no real point in getting so hot and bothered about it all...
~to each their own :)

Pilate, not Pilot...
anyway, I'm roman catholic, and I have to agree that the religion is corrupt...

*!*k No.

~Please see Commandment # 5. Thanks.

THE FIVE COMMANDMENTS (THE PENTABARF)
The PENTABARF was discovered by the hermit Apostle Zarathud in the Fifth Year of The Caterpillar. He found them carved in gilded stone, while building a sun deck for his cave, but their import was lost for they were written in a mysterious cypher. However, after 10 weeks & 11 hours of intensive scrutiny he discerned that the message could be read by standing on his head and viewing it upside down.

KNOW YE THIS O MAN OF FAITH!
I - There is no Goddess but Goddess and She is Your Goddess. There is no Erisian Movement but The Erisian Movement and it is The Erisian Movement. And every Golden Apple Corps is the beloved home of a Golden Worm.

II - A Discordian Shall Always use the Official Discordian Document Numbering System.

III - A Discordian is Required during his early Illumination to Go Off Alone & Partake Joyously of a Hot Dog on a Friday; this Devotive Ceremony to Remonstrate against the popular Paganisms of the Day: of Catholic Christendom (no meat on Friday), of Judaism (no meat of Pork), of Hindic Peoples (no meat of Beef), of Buddhists (no meat of animal), and of Discordians (no Hot Dog Buns).

IV - A Discordian shall Partake of No Hot Dog Buns, for Such was the Solace of Our Goddess when She was Confronted with The Original Snub.

V - A Discordian is Prohibited of Believing what he reads.

IT IS SO WRITTEN! SO BE IT. HAIL DISCORDIA! PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED.

Shameless Whoring:
http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=discordia_magna

So what is heaven? If heaven is perfect then we must have no free will there as it is simply not possible for us to be perfect.

Hi Dr,

No one has come back with a report... yet... But as I understand it, death changes everything.. have to wait and see.. I can't even speculate... Heck, I don't even know if I would make it there... I'd like to think so....

I'd like to think we'd both make it....

But I dunno ...

*!*k No.

~Please see Commandment # 5. Thanks.

THE FIVE COMMANDMENTS (THE PENTABARF)
The PENTABARF was discovered by the hermit Apostle Zarathud in the Fifth Year of The Caterpillar. He found them carved in gilded stone, while building a sun deck for his cave, but their import was lost for they were written in a mysterious cypher. However, after 10 weeks & 11 hours of intensive scrutiny he discerned that the message could be read by standing on his head and viewing it upside down.

KNOW YE THIS O MAN OF FAITH!
I - There is no Goddess but Goddess and She is Your Goddess. There is no Erisian Movement but The Erisian Movement and it is The Erisian Movement. And every Golden Apple Corps is the beloved home of a Golden Worm.

II - A Discordian Shall Always use the Official Discordian Document Numbering System.

III - A Discordian is Required during his early Illumination to Go Off Alone & Partake Joyously of a Hot Dog on a Friday; this Devotive Ceremony to Remonstrate against the popular Paganisms of the Day: of Catholic Christendom (no meat on Friday), of Judaism (no meat of Pork), of Hindic Peoples (no meat of Beef), of Buddhists (no meat of animal), and of Discordians (no Hot Dog Buns).

IV - A Discordian shall Partake of No Hot Dog Buns, for Such was the Solace of Our Goddess when She was Confronted with The Original Snub.

V - A Discordian is Prohibited of Believing what he reads.

IT IS SO WRITTEN! SO BE IT. HAIL DISCORDIA! PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED.

Shameless Whoring:
http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=discordia_magna

It's too bad this entire race went extinct at the hands of the Cylon and Klingon Empires... When they wouldn't permit shore-leave...

hehe....

But if by Christian you mean whatever it is that Dobson or Falwell or Bush is... :gundge:
You didn't just insult Dr. Dobson, did you? :eek:
*commences gundge war*
:gundge: :gundge:

Well I dont see any point in not being honest. I dont see how anyone could not want him to exist. I try to listen to what believers(sounds rude but cant think of a better word) feel. And Im quite discusted by some atheists attitude towards religion. Religion has been the supposed cause of many terrible events in history. However, it is obvious that they are used as an excuse as they go against Christian beliefs like "thou shalt not kill" I think thats right isnt it? So how can GW claim to be a christian?

Well I dont see any point in not being honest. I dont see how anyone could not want him to exist. I try to listen to what believers(sounds rude but cant think of a better word) feel. And Im quite discusted by some atheists attitude towards religion. Religion has been the supposed cause of many terrible events in history. However, it is obvious that they are used as an excuse as they go against Christian beliefs like "thou shalt not kill" I think thats right isnt it? So how can GW claim to be a christian?

Hi Dr,

That is probably the most misunderstood and misused commandment in the bunch. It's true meaning is: "Thou shalt not shed innocent blood".. or commit murder of an innocent.

I am sure being a man of "God" that GW understands the meaning. It does not apply to self-defense and war... In the Bible, there are many times God's people were called to defensive war... But I didn't want to turn this into a Bible study... I think that would probably suck and draw fire from just about everyone..

I like the discussion tho...

Thanks...

Well I never knew that! Although I disagree with killing anyone even if they are guilty. It is good to talk to someone who speaks sensibly about the subject and doesnt just go off on one!

Well I dont see any point in not being honest. I dont see how anyone could not want him to exist.

For me being an atheist is not about the desire for a God to exist / not exist, rather examination of both sides of the argument and coming to my own conclusions. What I find strange is that many people will often hold beliefs due to the fact that they were indoctrinated into them. If they were born into a family that followed a different religion, they would also follow that religion. I have never been able to understand why people take to believing the teachings of their religion over another due to the fact that they were simply born into it.

EDIT: Spelling :)

Well I never knew that! Although I disagree with killing anyone even if they are guilty. It is good to talk to someone who speaks sensibly about the subject and doesnt just go off on one!

Hi Dr,

I certainly cannot disagree with that! I doubt I could kill anyone or be responsible for a death if there was any way to avoid it.... Thanks for the compliment... I try to be as unemotional and objective as possible when engaged in discussions... I can see you are the same way...

Regards!

For me being an atheist is not about the desire for a God to exist / not exist, rather examination of both sides of the argument and coming to my own conclusions. What I find strange is that many people will often hold beliefs due to the fact that they were indoctrinated them. If they were born into a family that followed a different religion, they would also follow that religion. I have never been able to understand why people take to believing the teachings of their religion over another due to the fact that they were simply born into it.

Hmmmm... Explain what is meant by "indoctrinated with beliefs"... Is that even possible in this day and age in a free country?

Luckily I was not born into anything, I guess.... But is it assumed that everyone else was in your statements?

Is it further assumed that when someone reaches the age of consent that they would still adhere to some dogma?

This is an interesting concept...

I belive the statement to be true.

Hmmmm... Explain what is meant by "indoctrinated with beliefs"... Is that even possible in this day and age in a free country?


Well I would say that many are, due to the fact that they follow a certain religion due to their parents following it. What I mean is that people will be, for example, Christian rather than Muslim due to the fact that they come from a Christian rather than Muslim orientated family.


Luckily I was not born into anything, I guess.... But is it assumed that everyone else was in your statements?

I agree that people turn to religion for many other reasons, I was just pointing out that many turn to it for the reason i have said, and was wondering why, that being the case, they believed their religion to be correct over another. :) Originally I did say that most come to believe what they do in this way, and I would certainly argue that to be the case.

For me being an atheist is not about the desire for a God to exist / not exist, rather examination of both sides of the argument and coming to my own conclusions. What I find strange is that many people will often hold beliefs due to the fact that they were indoctrinated into them. If they were born into a family that followed a different religion, they would also follow that religion. I have never been able to understand why people take to believing the teachings of their religion over another due to the fact that they were simply born into it.

I completely agree with this statement. My sister and I are both atheist and my mother refuses to accept this. She told us that we have to believe in God because you are supposed to. What in the world does that mean? I'm supposed to believe in God? I think it's important to evaluate the information you have and formulate your own beliefs. If it was as simple as something you are supposed to do, there wouldn't be so many diverse religions in this world. Everyone has to find their own beliefs that work for their life.

I love that so many people in this thread have taken the time to make valid arguments, and to legitimately refute other people's arguments. That's something I have noticed a lack of in many religious debates in forums. Of course even in what appears to be an intelligent debate there must be the people who can't find anything intelligent to say and just rant about how much they hate the opposing side, or comment on spelling errors.

Well I would say that many are, due to the fact that they follow a certain religion due to their parents following it. What I mean is that people will be, for example, Christian rather than Muslim due to the fact that they come from a Christian rather than Muslim orientated family.


VERY interesting.. would this also explain preferences in political party? or would that be different? I understand that the term "Christian" covers a lot of ground.. There are many groups under that umbrella... Would someone moving from their parents Baptist upbringing to say... Pentacostal count as a change, or would one have to move to some foreign religion for this to count? See how interesting this can get?? :D


I agree that people turn to religion for many other reasons, I was just pointing out that many turn to it for the reason i have said, and was wondering why, that being the case, they believed their religion to be correct over another. :) Originally I did say that most come to believe what they do in this way, and I would certainly argue that to be the case.

I would imagine if one was dissappointed in the way their life was going, religion would be one of many hundreds of other options.. Like therapy.. or Yoga... Martial Arts... gambling.. alcohol and or drugs... I would hate to single out religion as the only thing people would turn to for comfort....

;)

hey, well, i'm a Christian, and proud of it....and i just thought i'd put my input in cos so many ppl are getting all personal and mean about it.......u say u hate how Christian's "bible bash" etc, but here u r...anti-Bible bashing or something. i'm open to debate, but u guys can be really mean....i'm not just saying this to the non-believers. oh well, here's my input...i believe completely and utterly in God as the power of the universe and creator of all mankind, etc, and in Jesus his son. and it makes perfect sense...because how would we hav formed if not intentionally? u say evolution, then y aren't man still evolving?!?!? shakespeare the greatest play write existed 500 years ago, y don't we hav even better plays now? instead of becoming more adaptable to this planet through generations....we're now getting more mental illnesses, some hav just come about in the past few decades???? i'm not trying to diss ur beliefs, just debating logically! oah, and quite a few pages back someone said that if God created us to love him and serve him as our soul purpose in life then y did he give us the freedom of choice??? well....do u really consider "love" someone loving you out of obligation and because they had no other choice....they don't love u for who u r, or wat u've don for them, they "love" u because, just because!?!?!?!? that's y we had choice, so God could experience love, the real thing, because we weren't obligated, peresay, to do so, we volunteered ourselves! well, that's pretty much all i hav to say right now, God bless

hey, well, i'm a Christian, and proud of it....and i just thought i'd put my input in cos so many ppl are getting all personal and mean about it.......u say u hate how Christian's "bible bash" etc, but here u r...anti-Bible bashing or something. i'm open to debate, but u guys can be really mean....i'm not just saying this to the non-believers. oh well, here's my input...i believe completely and utterly in God as the power of the universe and creator of all mankind, etc, and in Jesus his son. and it makes perfect sense...because how would we hav formed if not intentionally? u say evolution, then y aren't man still evolving?!?!? shakespeare the greatest play write existed 500 years ago, y don't we hav even better plays now? instead of becoming more adaptable to this planet through generations....we're now getting more mental illnesses, some hav just come about in the past few decades???? i'm not trying to diss ur beliefs, just debating logically! oah, and quite a few pages back someone said that if God created us to love him and serve him as our soul purpose in life then y did he give us the freedom of choice??? well....do u really consider "love" someone loving you out of obligation and because they had no other choice....they don't love u for who u r, or wat u've don for them, they "love" u because, just because!?!?!?!? that's y we had choice, so God could experience love, the real thing, because we weren't obligated, peresay, to do so, we volunteered ourselves! well, that's pretty much all i hav to say right now, God bless

Well said.... Thanks...

I apologize if I monopolized this forum... It has been an interesting discussion... Be back maybe tomorrow.... Gotta work in the AM...

Nitie-nite

VERY interesting.. would this also explain preferences in political party? or would that be different?

With regards to your comment about politics, I would say that an individual’s preference in a political party is different. This, I would argue, is due to the fact that political parties are open to scrutiny and much debate. Politics can be safely and openly debated. This makes it far easier for an individual to come to his or her own decisions about a political party and choose to vote in whichever way he or she likes. Again the family the individual is born into is most certainly likely to have some influence on that individual’s political viewpoint, but ultimately it is down to the individual. I would argue religion to be different. Religion seems to hide behind a wall of untouchability that prevents anyone challenging it. Anyone seen to oppose or openly criticize religion is often quietened in order to keep the peace and not offend. This is why when born into certain religious beliefs, an individual is far less likely to find those beliefs come under attack than his or her political persuasion, and thus stay with the beliefs they have been taught.


I understand that teh term "Christian" covers a lot of ground.. There are many groups under that umbrella... Would someone moving from their parents Baptist upbringing to say... Pentacostal count as a change, or would one have to move to some foreign religion for this to count? See how interesting this can get?? :D


From my own knowledge I would say that once introduced to a certain religious belief, if it is actively enforced, an individual would find it very difficult indeed to stray from it. This of course does not as strongly apply to families where religion is not as important or actively taught. It is often in situations where a religion is not enforced, that religious beliefs come into question. This is simply because without a strong indoctrinating environment discussion of ideas can occur. This can lead to individuals straying from their original beliefs, and more likely to look for other explanations. I would say that most individuals with strong religious beliefs come from strong religious environments, where the chance for discussion and doubt of their beliefs does not occur.


I would imagine if one was dissappointed in the way their life was going, religion would be one of many hundreds of other options.. Like therapy.. or Yoga... Martial Arts... gambling.. alcohol and or drugs... I would hate to single out religion as the only thing people could turn to for comfort....

;)

Well yes quite, but I was not saying that people simply turn to religion in times of hardship, but for many reasons. Perhaps even the way I have come to believe there is no God, from examining both sides of the argument and drawing their own conclusion!

hey, well, i'm a Christian, and proud of it....and i just thought i'd put my input in cos so many ppl are getting all personal and mean about it.......u say u hate how Christian's "bible bash" etc, but here u r...anti-Bible bashing or something. i'm open to debate, but u guys can be really mean....i'm not just saying this to the non-believers.

I agree that members representing both sides of the argument can be offensive to the other, but when attacking somebody’s core belief system you are bound to upset a few people! I shall try to present my side of the argument in a manner that does not lead to flaming.


oh well, here's my input...i believe completely and utterly in God as the power of the universe and creator of all mankind, etc, and in Jesus his son. and it makes perfect sense...because how would we hav formed if not intentionally? u say evolution, then y aren't man still evolving?!?!?


And I believe there is no God. For me it does not make perfect sense, it makes no sense at all which is why I have chosen to believe what I do. With regard to how we ‘formed’ if it wasn’t for a creator, this argument can be used against you. I say that the universe and everything in it ‘just is’. I would argue that there is no divine creator. Why? Because saying there is a creator brings up the question of what created the creator. I understand that most religious viewpoints state that the creator ‘just is’. I would argue that if the universe in your opinion cannot simply ‘just be’ due to all of its complexity, then isn’t the possibility of a being so powerful that it can create the universe and everything in it ‘just being’ even less llikely?


shakespeare the greatest play write existed 500 years ago, y don't we hav even better plays now? instead of becoming more adaptable to this planet through generations....we're now getting more mental illnesses, some hav just come about in the past few decades????


Ah but Shakespeare was human and his works can most certainly be challenged for being the best of all time! Some would argue we do have better plays! Anyway the point is that the advancement of theatre is in no way akin the theories of evolution.


i'm not trying to diss ur beliefs, just debating logically!


Why thank you! It is refreshing to see those open to debate. As it was once said, the presence of those seeking the truth is to be infinitely preferred to those claiming they have found it.



oah, and quite a few pages back someone said that if God created us to love him and serve him as our soul purpose in life then y did he give us the freedom of choice??? well....do u really consider "love" someone loving you out of obligation and because they had no other choice....they don't love u for who u r, or wat u've don for them, they "love" u because, just because!?!?!?!? that's y we had choice, so God could experience love, the real thing, because we weren't obligated, peresay, to do so, we volunteered ourselves! well, that's pretty much all i hav to say right now, God bless

Were your beliefs taken to be true, I would argue that the prospect of eternal pain in hell would make the choice of believing in God not entirely free.

Good for you. I don't believe one is saved or not saved, I believe one chooses good or evil by serving the wishes of either Ohrmazd or Ahriman. Your afterlife depends on what you choose, but hell itself is impermanant, because at a point, Ohrmazd will be victorious and the world will be purified of evil.

I for one am extremely interested in the Zoroastrian religion. Always have been since I learned of its existence in a World History class. Nothing at all was told me except that Zoroaster founded it in Persia. (Persia? I think it's been a while since world history) Aside from that, I would like to point out the general similarities between Christian Biblical teachings and what Parthia said above - The Bible teaches that works justify faith, and faith without works is dead, so one indeed choose good or evil by serving either what would be the Will of God or one's own selfishness. Your afterlife depends on what you choose, yes, as in do you choose to side with God or with yourself/hatred/evil, etc. Hell itself will be defeated at Armageddon for Christians, and the world will be recreated, and, yes, purified of evil. I myself am a Christian, as stated halfway earlier in this thread, but I am an open-minded, tolerant, Christian hungry for knowledge from other cultures and religions. Zoroastrianism has always enchanted me because I see in what I know of it a similarity to the Judeo-Christian belief of good versus evil and finality in the victory of the ultimately stronger god. Hit me back, Parthia. And fire those bows accurately, you culture in the top highest coolest cultures in the world. Peace
from a history buff

There is no contemporary evidence to support.. Black Holes.. UFO's.. Ghosts... Quarks... Quantum Mechanics... Pee Wee Herman....

Documents had survived that supports the crucifixion... Romans were very good record keepers....

You not done yer homework....

First: You are wrong on every point.

Second: The word 'contemporary'... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Third: Aside from the Bible (which is, obviously, a prejudiced source), there is NO independent, contemporary evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus.

None at all.

It is not I, my friend, who has missed their homework.

Written by Moses, as commanded by God.

Regardless, the Ten Commandments are NOT those listed by the other poster... he has merely listed 'some' commandments...

And - regarding Moses writing by God's command.... one way or another, this makes a liar of 'god'.

Exodus 34:1 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest".

versus

Exodus 34:28 "And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments".

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)



Good for you. :D ...what makes you think i want to know or care? :headbang:

Good for you. :D ...what makes you think i want to know or care? :headbang:
Because if you didn't care, you wouldn't open the thread and read it?

Because if you didn't care, you wouldn't open the thread and read it?

I.......I......I...um.....

Wow--not doing your homework indeed! Even Muslims believe that Jesus existed because there is so much written about him. The cricifixion really is the most documented historical event that has ever happened, and the life of Jesus has his own historical books about it from historians that--get this!--weren't even Christians!


The Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, because their religion borrows from the texts of Judaism and Christianity... being 600 years YOUNGER than Christianity.

The crucifixion has NO contemporary, independent witnesses to corroborate it. The nearest 'independent' source is Josephus, whose account was writtne nearly a century later. Not surprisingly, Josephus was not actually AT the crucifixion... he wasn't even born. In fact, he wasn't born during the likely lifespan of ANY of the disciples, either.


Come on people! If you don't want to believe there's a God, you have to believe in SOMETHING.


You might... I don't. I will not pay lipservice to something just to believe.


Maybe it's yourself--but then you have to ask yourself how you came to be. How did the earth come to be? How was the ENTIRE universe made? I guess it's my own opinion speaking when I say I believe that God is the answer to all my questions. People would say I'm ignorant--that I'm just taking the easy way out of finding solutions to my problems. But I can tell you one thing--nothing else makes sense.


Just because you don't know the answers, doesn't mean that 'god' is the answer.

Example: At the point at which Second Kings was mentioned, the purification of teh well was considered a miracle.

Second Kings 2:21-2 "And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land... So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake".

They didn't know how it worked, so they assumed 'god' intervening (in miraculous form) was the answer.

Of course, a scientific explanation IS forthcoming, if you have the scientific education, but the writers of the tale obviously lacked that education... thus recorded a 'miracle'. (The scientific answer is 'coagulation', by the way).


Like I said, there's no logical way to prove God exists--but there's no logical way to disprove it either. You can say whatever you like--you cannot diminish history at all, nor can you refute the fact that something HAD to start everything out. Whether or not you BELIEVE there's a God, you cannot prove their isn't. So why not imagine that there could be?

So, 'god' is just imagination?

Do you believe that the moon is held in the sky by sticky pixies?

Do you believe that the world balances on the backs of four elephants?

Do you believe that, if you opened up your head, you would see tiny tiny men running around inside?

You can't logically PROVE any of those things true or false, with the evidence at your disposal... therefore, by your logic, we should assume they are all true?

Now Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. By Faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what is visable. Hebrews 11:1,3
This is the meaning of Faith. We do a lot of things in faith.
And for you Athiest
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who dose good. God looks down from Heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. Everyone has turned away they have together become corrupt; there is no one who dose good, not even one. will the evildoers never learn-- those who devour my people as men eat bread and who do not call on God? Oh that Salvation would come out of Zion! Psalms 53:1-4,6
You can recive this salvation today! Its not to late.
John 3:16 says that God so loved the world that he gave his only son that who ever believes in him will not die but have eternal life.
Jesus was tortured, and beaten, and hung on a cross for all people. He took on the sins of the world everyones sins. You have sinned trust me. He died in our place so that we would not have to go through with our punishment. He died and rose again. He showed that he could conqure death and save the world by doing this. thats God's love for you and yet you reject it. If you want to be saved pray to Jesus admit that you have sinned, ask for his forgivness and ask him into your heart. Please do this. stop rejecting Gods gift. BELEIVE IN THE ONE WHO SAVED YOU AND TOOK YOUR PLACE.
Gods Peace
Nation of shire

Or maybe, it's all a work of fiction... just as the Christians believe every OTHER religion must be....

If you want to be saved, look at all the other religions and ask THEIR gods for forgiveness. Please do this. Stop rejecting their gifts.

etc..

It's ok that you you don't believe.... but if the reason you don't believe is what you state, then it must be assumed you know and possess all the knowledge in the universe, and there is not the slightest possibility that you *may* have missed something...

Who is going to be the judge of what "true Christianity" means? Those of you who very possibly never even so much as cracked open Bible??

Now *THAT* is naive and ridiculous...

You leap to conclusions, my friend.

Many Atheists are exceptionally well read, in matters of religion.

In fact, all too often, it is the so-called 'faithful' that are found to be lacking in the scriptural education... and bereft of spritual exploration.

Why arnt you a Christian?

Why aren't you a Hindu?

Why am I not a Hindu?? Because Hinduism, like every other religion out there except Christianity, relies on works to find true "salvation" (or whatever it might be called in that religion).

Only in Christianity can one find salvation by faith alone. Salvation is not "merited" as in all other religions.
Only Christianity gives true hope, by determining man's true problem. Only by determining the true problem can one find the true solution and gain hope.

For those of you who feel somewhat open to this, may I suggest an excellent book on the subject?? Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis. Originally a set of lectures delivered in the early 1940s, this collection of essays has been very widely read. He is a clear expositor and covers many of the arguments that people have surrounding the issue of Christianity.

AND you caught that too! Dang.. we gonna be buddies!

:D

I gotta book too... Work manana!

l8tr
You're wrong. The Necronomicon is a fictional book. The Book of the Dead is not, and is an actual Egyptian work about the proper rites for burial.

You're wrong. The Necronomicon is a fictional book. The Book of the Dead is not, and is an actual Egyptian work about the proper rites for burial.

There is also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380751925/qid=1117133920/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-0209335-6659352:rolleyes: :p

but to answer the question from the poll: no

Why am I not a Hindu?? Because Hinduism, like every other religion out there except Christianity, relies on works to find true "salvation" (or whatever it might be called in that religion).

Only in Christianity can one find salvation by faith alone. Salvation is not "merited" as in all other religions.
Only Christianity gives true hope, by determining man's true problem. Only by determining the true problem can one find the true solution and gain hope.

For those of you who feel somewhat open to this, may I suggest an excellent book on the subject?? Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis. Originally a set of lectures delivered in the early 1940s, this collection of essays has been very widely read. He is a clear expositor and covers many of the arguments that people have surrounding the issue of Christianity.

So what you're saying is that false hope is better than no hope at all? Kind of like when "Honest John" and Gideon offered Pinocchio the false hope of Pleasure Island? Interesting...

Pontius Pilot? :D

Why am I not a Hindu?? Because Hinduism, like every other religion out there except Christianity, relies on works to find true "salvation" (or whatever it might be called in that religion).

Only in Christianity can one find salvation by faith alone. Salvation is not "merited" as in all other religions.
Only Christianity gives true hope, by determining man's true problem. Only by determining the true problem can one find the true solution and gain hope.

For those of you who feel somewhat open to this, may I suggest an excellent book on the subject?? Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis. Originally a set of lectures delivered in the early 1940s, this collection of essays has been very widely read. He is a clear expositor and covers many of the arguments that people have surrounding the issue of Christianity.
Woot! Somebody played the C.S. Lewis card! I was so about to bring that up, and was really happy to see that you beat me to it. Kudos.

However, I've sometimes found that whether or not people are "open to it", they'll still go into this with a closed mind, and once again come out of all the reading with the mindset that it was a "waste of time" because they're not willing to actually try to understand the other side.

Furthermore, I think it's equally important for Christians to understand other world religions (this isn't directed at you, Computer Labs, as it's clear you have some understanding of others) if you're going to argue the point. It's hard as hell for some people to stand listening to a Christian defend the Bible (though bear in mind, non-Christians, it's just as hard for us to hear you bash it), but it's downright painful when those Christians try to make points about other religions based on hearsay and stereotypes.

Pontius Pilot? :D

That reminds me...I'd better wash my hands before I go back to work. :D

Basically, religion has no basis in reality (literally), and it has no reason for existing.

I think that christianity is actually dying out as more and more people realise what a crock of **** it is.

Now Muriel plays the piano / Every Friday at the Hollywood / And they brought me down to see her / And they asked me if I would / Do a little number / And I sang with all my might / She said "Tell me are you a Christian" / And I said "Ma'am I am tonight"

Basically, religion has no basis in reality (literally), and it has no reason for existing.

I think that christianity is actually dying out as more and more people realise what a crock of **** it is.

Speaking of false hopes...unfortunately, I've seen little evidence that your prediction will come true any time in the near future. But one can certainly hope...

You leap to conclusions, my friend.

Many Atheists are exceptionally well read, in matters of religion.

In fact, all too often, it is the so-called 'faithful' that are found to be lacking in the scriptural education... and bereft of spritual exploration.
Yep. Unlike several ther people in this thread, I actually know all ten commandments, and several of the ones that aren't usually included in the list.

First: You are wrong on every point.

Second: The word 'contemporary'... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Third: Aside from the Bible (which is, obviously, a prejudiced source), there is NO independent, contemporary evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus.

None at all.

It is not I, my friend, who has missed their homework.

Hi buddy..

Well, not gonna do your homework.... Not gonna challenge me into proving you wrong.. Not my yob, mang...

You can perpetuate your own special brand of ignorance on ad infinitum...

Romans were "impeccable" record keepers....

Later!

Basically, religion has no basis in reality (literally), and it has no reason for existing.

I think that christianity is actually dying out as more and more people realise what a crock of **** it is.
So all the literary works from the beginning of time that HAPPEN to be fictionally based, because they have no basis in reality, have no reason for existing?

Wow, that's kind of awful. I'd liken it to Fahrenheit 451, but then, being fictional, that book has no merit....

Why am I not a Hindu?? Because Hinduism, like every other religion out there except Christianity, relies on works to find true "salvation" (or whatever it might be called in that religion).

Only in Christianity can one find salvation by faith alone. Salvation is not "merited" as in all other religions.
Only Christianity gives true hope, by determining man's true problem. Only by determining the true problem can one find the true solution and gain hope.

And that is why it is awful. You could be the most despicable person on Earth, but you could have faith and get into heaven. Meanwhile, Ghandi burns in Hell. What a shitty afterlife.

Simonist']So all the literary works from the beginning of time that HAPPEN to be fictionally based, because they have no basis in reality, have no reason for existing?

Wow, that's kind of awful. I'd liken it to Fahrenheit 451, but then, being fictional, that book has no merit....

I'm not sure where you got the idea that S&A was talking about literary works?

And that is why it is awful. You could be the most despicable person on Earth, but you could have faith and get into heaven. Meanwhile, Ghandi burns in Hell. What a shitty afterlife.

I think that those who are truly faithful wouldn't do those things because God basically says so, but it is of course completely flawed.

You leap to conclusions, my friend.

Many Atheists are exceptionally well read, in matters of religion.

In fact, all too often, it is the so-called 'faithful' that are found to be lacking in the scriptural education... and bereft of spritual exploration.

Who said I wasn't an athiest?

Personally, I am not willing to believe that man has yet acquired all the knowledge in the universe. That means mankind cannot really come to any conclusion as to what all exists and what does not... You obviously take the ABSOLUTIST stand that God cannot exist.... but only because you don't wish it..

And I don't think you can possibly know that for certain... Bottom line! All the rest of this crap is a smokescreen...

And that is why it is awful. You could be the most despicable person on Earth, but you could have faith and get into heaven. Meanwhile, Ghandi burns in Hell. What a shitty afterlife.

Yeah, I really wish Christians could hear themselves - but that's not gonna happen.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that S&A was talking about literary works?
I wasn't claiming he was talking about literary works. I was calling him out on saying that simply because it has "no basis in reality", it's got no reason to be.

I've said this before, and i'll say it again.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

Religion is fine. I respect God for being omnipotent and impossible to disprove. Don't mean i think he's there tho.

I'm not generalising, but this is the kind of thing devout chrisitians believe,
Read the magazines

www.thetruthforyouth.com/main.htm

Simonist']I wasn't claiming he was talking about literary works. I was calling him out on saying that simply because it has "no basis in reality", it's got no reason to be.

Most literary works have not caused the violence, hatred, bloodshed and general destruction that Christianity has.

Most literary works have not caused the violence, hatred, bloodshed and general destruction that Christianity has.
You know what? I WASN'T LIKENING THEM TO THE BIBLE. If you people can't understand what I'm trying to say, just drop it.

Most literary works have not caused the violence, hatred, bloodshed and general destruction that Christianity has.

Please be more specific..... Hear this lots of times.. So far greatly unsubstantiated.... Kinda like a "religious RACE Card"...

Thanks..

Hi buddy..

Well, not gonna do your homework.... Not gonna challenge me into proving you wrong.. Not my yob, mang...

You can perpetuate your own special brand of ignorance on ad infinitum...

Romans were "impeccable" record keepers....

Later!
http://catholic.weathersweb.com/historical_jesus.php

I think Grave is right. Mostly here-say and circumstancial evidence, and very little contemporary.

THink about it. We put people who hear voices in their heads crazy, but much of the world believes in an invisible man/woman who lives in the sky and controls their destiny, and they further believe that they can talk to this person and this person talks back. Some people even believe this person suffers from multiple personality syndrome :eek: How illogical

http://catholic.weathersweb.com/historical_jesus.php

I like Grave is right. Mostly here-say and circumstancial evidence, and very little contemporary.

So... We expect the past to be all in neat little web-sites.. Organized and cross-filed for your conveniences? I see.. So.. Jesus is now on trial, and he has to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that He existed.. and therefor did or didn't die on the cross...

You folks are far too much!

Raise your right hand and repeat after me: "I swear to believe everything I read and see on the internet.. no matter what the source...."

Incredible.... and easily manipulated...

Do not give me links.. I won't honor them... I don't believe anything I see on the net... Especially if it comes from a biased source.. uh duh!

You obviously have more faith in strangers than I do.... Sheeesh...

Gosheeple....

great, another Cristian bashing post! :rolleyes:
Y doesnt anyone ever seem to bash any other religion?
I'm a christian and I'm so fed up of people saying that christianity is stupid ........but im also fed up of christians telling people of other religions that they are stupid. Y cant we just accept that everyone has a different opinion?
Yes we are taught to try to convert people but i dont think this can be done by forcing it down peoples throats. I believe in showing my religion by my example.
and those atheists who like to tell us that we're stupid for being christians: If you're right and there is no God then at least we've lived our lives not fearing death and we've lived our lives in a way that tries to do some good in this screwed up world.
I clicked yes to the poll. But then read the footnote, I much prefer the protestant church to be honest

So... We expect the past to be all in neat little web-sites.. Organized and cross-filed for your conveniences? I see.. So.. Jesus is now on trial, and he has to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that He existed.. and therefor did or didn't die on the cross...

You folks are far too much!

Raise your right hand and repeat after me: "I swear to believe everything I read and see on the internet.. no matter what the source...."

Incredible.... and easily manipulated...

Do not give me links.. I won't honor them... I don't believe anything I see on the net... Especially if it comes from a biased source.. uh duh!

You obviously have more faith in strangers than I do.... Sheeesh...

Gosheeple....
So, we're damned if we do homework, and damned if we don't?

THink about it. We put people who hear voices in their heads crazy, but much of the world believes in an invisible man/woman who lives in the sky and controls their destiny, and they further believe that they can talk to this person and this person talks back. Some people even believe this person suffers from multiple personality syndrome :eek: How illogical

Obviously never read the book... Doesn't know the subject matter...

Mankind has free-will to choose his/her own destiny.... It's the responsibility and accountability part that is what most athiests can't appreciate...

Heh...

So, we're damned if we do homework, and damned if we don't?

Internet is not homework.... Who taught you how to do research? Donald Duck?

Didn't anyone explain multiple source and double-blind? Checks and cross references?

Not some dude with a website who sounds cooool.... uh duh...

great, another Cristian bashing post! :rolleyes:
Y doesnt anyone ever seem to bash any other religion?
I'm a christian and I'm so fed up of people saying that christianity is stupid ........but im also fed up of christians telling people of other religions that they are stupid. Y cant we just accept that everyone has a different opinion?
Yes we are taught to try to convert people but i dont think this can be done by forcing it down peoples throats. I believe in showing my religion by my example.
and those atheists who like to tell us that we're stupid for being christians: If you're right and there is no God then at least we've lived our lives not fearing death and we've lived our lives in a way that tries to do some good in this screwed up world.
I clicked yes to the poll. But then read the footnote, I much prefer the protestant church to be honest

I'm an atheist, and I'm have my ethics, and morals. I do good because it is GOOD, not because God told me to. And no, I'm not particularly afraid of death either.
After all I'll be dead and so won't be able to comprehend it.

I'm an atheist, and I'm have my ethics, and morals. I do good because it is GOOD, not because God told me to. And no, I'm not particularly afraid of death either.
After all I'll be dead and so won't be able to comprehend it.

How do you determine what is "GOOD"? By what standard do you measure your deeds?

Do you simply mean, you do legal deeds? I would hope everyone would do legal deeds.... What makes your deeds special?

Jes askin....

What is good is what benefits other, which is not at the expense of others.

What is good is what benefits other, which is not at the expense of others.

And can I have an example? I don't think any of us go out of our way to benefit others..... unless it's convenient...

In other words, why should I adopt your moral code of ethics? Pretend I am from Mars.. and I want to fit into society.. Explain to me your code of ethics and moral constants...

ya how here is some thing that hapend to day.i have notict that christian on inpalses want to convert anyone in there path.i even try to resion weht thise one.i must have ben out of my mied.i was like talking to a brik wall.she keep saying jueus is the only way :)). and i am a philosopher and any way have you thrid to resion weth one it is inpasebal.and on tap of it i was on my dally walk about. like i want to here it. :headbang:

i worship the almighty satan
i love you guys

ya how here is some thing that hapend to day.i have notict that christian on inpalses want to convert anyone in there path.i even try to resion weht thise one.i must have ben out of my mied.i was like talking to a brik wall.she keep saying jueus is the only way :)). and i am a philosopher and any way have you thrid to resion weth one it is inpasebal.and on tap of it i was on my dally walk about. like i want to here it. :headbang:

Check your keyboard for staples... I believe you may have a few shorts...

You can get a new one at Office MAX for about 8 bucks...

i worship the almighty satan
i love you guys

You DO?

Then God must exist! Can't have a Yang without a Yin...

Irrefutable Proof at last!

and we love you too!

Some of the Christians on this thread, and everywhere else, seem to think that atheists know that God exists but that we decide not to believe in him. It isn't a choice. Atheists like myself just DON'T believe in God, there is no choice involved.

Some of the Christians on this thread, and everywhere else, seem to think that atheists know that God exists but that we decide not to believe in him. It isn't a choice. Atheists like myself just DON'T believe in God, there is no choice involved.

And that's ok.. because if there IS a GOD, He probably doesn't believe in you either...

Quid Pro Quo..

Geeeze...

I am a Christian. Not Catholic, not Protestant, just plain Christian. I believe in Jesus for who He is and what He has done for my anscestors, my parents, and myself. And for the Jews, who are just plain gangster and God made them that way.

When trying to look at the world in a view with no God, I despair. My yearning for God is a yearning for something more, something other than my selfishness and stupid ideas. He is purpose, He is freedom, He is love. In His wisdom and might I will finally be able to fufill a great passion of mine: uniting Ireland. No offense to the British, but it's time Ulster, a land of Irish, to actually become Irish in the political sense. It's time for Catholics and Protestants to realize that they are no different. And we can't do that if we are two different countries.

Yeah, maybe I sound insane. Good. I've seen enough "sane" people to know I don't want to be one.

I am a Christian. Not Catholic, not Protestant, just plain Christian. I believe in Jesus for who He is and what He has done for my anscestors, my parents, and myself. And for the Jews, who are just plain gangster and God made them that way.

When trying to look at the world in a view with no God, I despair. My yearning for God is a yearning for something more, something other than my selfishness and stupid ideas. He is purpose, He is freedom, He is love. In His wisdom and might I will finally be able to fufill a great passion of mine: uniting Ireland. No offense to the British, but it's time Ulster, a land of Irish, to actually become Irish in the political sense. It's time for Catholics and Protestants to realize that they are no different. And we can't do that if we are two different countries.

Yeah, maybe I sound insane. Good. I've seen enough "sane" people to know I don't want to be one.

You know, you can have all those things without God of Jesus 'having' to exist.
And who really cares if Ireland united anymore. Honestly you'd have to be racist or patriotic (i.e racist) to want things like that.

ya how here is some thing that hapend to day.i have notict that christian on inpalses want to convert anyone in there path.i even try to resion weht thise one.i must have ben out of my mied.i was like talking to a brik wall.she keep saying jueus is the only way :)). and i am a philosopher and any way have you thrid to resion weth one it is inpasebal.and on tap of it i was on my dally walk about. like i want to here it. :headbang:

Well from what I can read of your post, you met a Baptist. No offense to the Baptists, but I find them to be more pushy about their beliefs then any other religion. I myself am a firm Catholic, and it even seems like they push Baptist-specific beliefs on me.

Before you read on, these next comments are my beliefs and I am not trying to insult/convert/etc. to anyone. Just my thoughts.

As for all this talk of ‘proof’, all I have to do is look around to see proof of His existence. How could we have gotten to where we are today without help from a supreme being? Human ingenuity? Well of course, but where do you think that came from. Sentient beings… not even insentient beings could have possibly formed from nothingness at the beginning of time. Someone had to have put us here. With my faith, that ‘Someone’ is God.

Food for thought: Despite scientists efforts with the Big Bang theory, they still can not predict what happened in approximately the first 45 seconds of time.

You know, you can have all those things without God of Jesus 'having' to exist.
And who really cares if Ireland united anymore. Honestly you'd have to be racist or patriotic (i.e racist) to want things like that.

I thought all of Europe including Ireland is now going to be called EUROLAND!

No states, no borders, no individual heritage or national sense of culture...

Just plain old EUROLAND....

Land anywhere.. it's all going to be the same....

Jes wonderin'

And that's ok.. because if there IS a GOD, He probably doesn't believe in you either...

Quid Pro Quo..

Geeeze...


No, it's not OK. It is insulting, to me at least, when people say that. Based on other posts on this forum, I know I'm not the only one. It implies that we're hypocrites, or that we're controlled by Satan or something.

And by the way, if there is an Almighty God, it would certainly be within his power to know that I exist.

No, it's not OK. It is insulting, to me at least, when people say that. Based on other posts on this forum, I know I'm not the only one. It implies that we're hypocrites, or that we're controlled by Satan or something.

And by the way, if there is an Almighty God, it would certainly be within his power to know that I exist.

Sorry you feel that way.... but I don't really care... You don't have a right not to be offended by others.... Grow up! I implied nothing more that what you see I typed. Everything else is in your head.... Obviously you must have "issues"... Who said I don't agree 100% with everything you said! I didn't say I was a "believer"...

You assume much... for topical conversations...

Sheeesh..

You know, you can have all those things without God of Jesus 'having' to exist.
And who really cares if Ireland united anymore. Honestly you'd have to be racist or patriotic (i.e racist) to want things like that.

Patriotism is loving what you are. Racism is hating what you aren't. I love Jews. I am not a Jew, neither genetically or by my beliefs. Patriotism isn't racist, and nor am I. Don't let that thing called logic stop you, dude. :D

God has matched things in ways no one has seen. He keeps me alive, and if I'm going to so something about Ireland, that makes God necessary for Irish unity.

Patriotism is loving what you are. Racism is hating what you aren't. I love Jews. I am not a Jew, neither genetically or by my beliefs. Patriotism isn't racist, and nor am I. Don't let that thing called logic stop you, dude. :D

God has matched things in ways no one has seen. He keeps me alive, and if I'm going to so something about Ireland, I'd say that makes God necessary for Irish unity.

Uh, God has done nothing.
Ever.

And patriotism it to love one's country above other countries.
This of course breeds a sense of superiority.

Uh, God has done nothing.
Ever.

God brought my parents together.
God stopped from slicing myself.
God heals through the hands of a Taco Bell worker in California.
God told me to go to Ireland.
God killed my fear.
God offends you. :D

And that's ok.. because if there IS a GOD, He probably doesn't believe in you either...

Quid Pro Quo..

Geeeze...

That is rather offensive, and hypocritical. Remember our Lord believes in all of us as we are His creations. Aside from that, we can not speak for God. He is the judge of us, we can not judge others ourselves. That is sin.

Sorry you feel that way.... but I don't really care... You don't have a right not to be offended by others.... Grow up! I implied nothing more that what you see I typed. Everything else is in your head.... Obviously you have "issues"... Who said I don't agree 100% with everything you said! I didn't say I was a "believer"...

You assume much...

Sheeesh..

I didn't say you were a believer either. I explained to you why it wasn't OK to think that atheists know that God exists but choose not to admit it, because it's just not correct. I didn't imply anything either. I never mentioned the word "you" in that post at all.

Uh, God has done nothing.
Ever.

And patriotism it to love one's country above other countries.
This of course breeds a sense of superiority.

Not unless you are a total nutjob....

You are supposed to HONOR you culture and country..

That breeds nothing....

And patriotism it to love one's country above other countries.
This of course breeds a sense of superiority.

Patriotism is not about other countries. It is about knowing what you are. It is national self-esteem, which is pretty important, if psychatrists know anything.

That is rather offensive, and hypocritical. Remember our Lord believes in all of us as we are His creations. Aside from that, we can not speak for God. He is the judge of us, we can not judge others ourselves. That is sin.

It was a JOKE.... a very OLD JOKE.... Now shut up!

Geeeze.... Thin-skinned daisies on this thread!

Lighten up!

God brought my parents together.
God stopped from slicing myself.
God heals through the hands of a Taco Bell worker in California.
God told me to go to Ireland.
God killed my fear.
God offends you. :D

The belief in God brought your parents together
The belief in God stopped you from slicing yourself
That's just stupid
The voices in you head told you to
The belief in God killed my fear
The belief in God is simply wrong.

Oh and a belief in God is completely different from there being a God, don't kid yourself.

The belief in God brought your parents together
The belief in God stopped you from slicing yourself
That's just stupid
The voices in you head told you to
The belief in God killed my fear
The belief in God is simply wrong.

Oh and a belief in God is completely different from there being a God, don't kid yourself.

Disbelief in God is no evidence there is none.

If there were no God, believe me, I'd have been dead right now. You don't know me, but please, take my word for it.

Actually dude, my friend in California has been able to use the name of Jesus to heal migranes her coworkers had.

Disbelief in God is no evidence there is none.

If there were no God, believe me, I'd have been dead right now. You don't know me, but please, take my word for it.

Actually dude, my friend in California has been able to use the name of Jesus to heal migranes her coworkers had.

A simple placebo trick.

And the belief in God simply doesn't mean he exists

I didn't say you were a believer either. I explained to you why it wasn't OK to think that atheists know that God exists but choose not to admit it, because it's just not correct. I didn't imply anything either. I never mentioned the word "you" in that post at all.

Hiya,

Well you responded to my post.. I am American... I say what I think.. I am not going to go back and ANALYZE everything that was said... And I am definitly NOT going to "walk on eggshells" for fear of someone possibly being offended of what I say or how I think about a subject...

If that's what you expect from me, you are sadly mistaken...

I am probably the most un-politically correct and HONEST person you will meet in all this steaming pile of posts...

You should find it "refreshing"... :D

Uh, God has done nothing.
Ever.

And patriotism it to love one's country above other countries.
This of course breeds a sense of superiority.

I say again, explain to me how life began and I'll believe you. To me, God created us and watches over us, so in fact he has done something.

Patriotism does breed superiority for some people, maybe the more extreme ones, but not all. I consider myself very patriotic, but it is not because I believe that we are better, it is because I love my country. We believe in freedom, justice, and opportunity. I just so happen to enjoy these principals. That does not mean I think we are a superior country.

Comparing patriotism to racism hardly makes sense.

One of the funniest things is that if you lived in a small community, where nobody mention God, you'd have absolutely no knowledge of the concept.

Anyway, because we don't have an answer doesn't mean God is the only answer.

And besides there are some pretty amazing theories coming out that says it may be possible for us to create a completely new universe in a labratory.

It would exist here for a yoctosecond and then occupy it's own space.

Hiya,

Well you responded to my post.. I am American... I say what I think.. I am not going to go back and ANALYZE everything that was said... And I am definitly NOT going to "walk on eggshells" for fear of someone possibly being offended of what I say or how I think about a subject...

If that's what you expect from me, you are sadly mistaken...

I am probably the most un-politically correct and HONEST person you will meet in all this steaming pile of posts...

You should find it "refreshing"... :D

You don't need to explain yourself to me... you are what you are and that's that. Anyways I'm done here, good bye.

I say again, explain to me how life began and I'll believe you. To me, God created us and watches over us, so in fact he has done something.


Or, it could have been aliens from a far advanced civilisation who came on earth and planted amino acids that took root and grew into us.

Or it could have been a glitch in the matrix. We are a computer virus who is taking over the operating system of existence. I don't know about you, but I dread the Great Formatting that is about to come.

Or it could have been the Great Invisible Pink Unicorn who sneezed one morning and, from her divine nostrils came the energy to effect the big bang which caused a chain reaction that ultimately lead to us exisitng.

Or any number of creation myth that come from other religions.

Pray tell, why should I accept YOUR creation myth?

An interesting thought just struck me, there is a potential flaw in this debate between views here, which should be clarified

Atheist - a person who rejects the idea of supernatural beings

Areligious - a person who does not subscribe to a certain religion or religious cult, or sect of a religion.

And now for a message from the lighter side:

Religious views of life

Bhuddhism- Shit happens

Zen Bhuddhism - what is the sound of shit happening?

Judiaism - why does this shit always happen to us?

Catholicism - shit happens because you deserve it

Hinduism - this shit has happened before

The Amish - If shit happens, turn the other cheek

Neo- Christian Conservatives - If shit happens it's someone elses fault

Islam - Shit is the will of Allah

Agnostic - is this shit real?

Televangelism (US) - Shit happens because you didn't send us money

Atheism - I don't believe this shit

Pray tell, why should I accept YOUR creation myth?

Funny how I never said that God was the only answer. And I definitely did not ever say that you should accept God. I believe that I said "to me", not for all.

Before you comment, please read the post.

And honestly, unicorns?

I am a Jew by choice: that is, I was not born Jewish, I chose to convert. I'm amazed at how few people consider Judaism as an option: it is actually quite good. To me, it makes much more sense. While Jesus did fulfill certain biblical prophecies of the messiah, to me, he clearly was not such. He didn't even embody the messianic idea of a king, a military leader, who would establish an empire in the name of G-d greater than King David did. He did not rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, he was not a member of the tribe of Judah (even though it says Joseph was his father, he was not his biological father: if I get adopted by a Chinese family, that doesn't make me Chinese), and even if he was, one of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon, he did not establish world peace, gather the Jewish exiles back to Israel, and, worst of all, he either changed or eliminated many of the Torah commandments! It is very well established that any of G-d's commandments are binding forever. The covenant does not expire. What about the miracles he performed? It is said in Deuteronomy that you should not believe those who use magic and trickery to gain your trust. Finally, prophecy cannot exist in Israel when not a clear majority of world Jews live in Israel: so, that discounts Jesus as even a prophet. I have read the New Testament, and over four times in the course of my life I have tried Christianity: it never worked. I feel more at home at a synagogue than I ever did at any church. But, if Christianity is what works for you, then power to you, brother. G-d will not punish you for not believing things: if you are a good person, no matter what religion, you will be with G-d when you die. (Just one last note: the concept of original sin isn't mentioned in the "Old Testament", or Tanakh to me...is that not a tab bit suspicious to you? If you truly want to be forgiven for your sins, just sincerely repent: you do not need the death of a man to aid you in that). And don't bother mentioning a second coming: no such concept exists in the Tanakh. The mosiach, or messiah, is never supposed to die: not even to be ressurected. That is a summary of my beliefs: sorry if it was too long. Thank you for reading this.

Funny how I never said that God was the only answer. And I definitely did not ever say that you should accept God. I believe that I said "to me", not for all.

Before you comment, please read the post.

And honestly, unicorns?
Why not unicorns ... by now they have almost as much mention and are included in almost as much literature as the christian god :p

Bhuddhism- Shit happens

Zen Bhuddhism - what is the sound of shit happening?

Judiaism - why does this shit always happen to us?

Catholicism - shit happens because you deserve it

Hinduism - this shit has happened before

The Amish - If shit happens, turn the other cheek

Neo- Christian Conservatives - If shit happens it's someone elses fault

Islam - Shit is the will of Allah

Agnostic - is this shit real?

Televangelism (US) - Shit happens because you didn't send us money

Atheism - I don't believe this shit

Paganism - This shit would be best under my roses

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

I agree 100%.

Uh, God has done nothing.
Ever.

And patriotism it to love one's country above other countries.
This of course breeds a sense of superiority.

You believe that, I'll believe he has.


I think you mean something different

pa·tri·ot·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr--tzm)
n.
Love of and devotion to one's country.

Patriotism

n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it

eth·no·cen·trism (thn-sntrzm)
n.

The tendency to evaluate other groups according to the values and standards of one's own ethnic group, especially with the conviction that one's own ethnic group is superior to the other groups.

You believe that, I'll believe he has.


I think you mean something different

pa·tri·ot·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr--tzm)
n.
Love of and devotion to one's country.

Patriotism

n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it

eth·no·cen·trism (thn-sntrzm)
n.

I no what you mean, but there are many who turn 'patriotism' and turn it into ethnocentrism.
Which is true.

I'm an atheist, and I'm have my ethics, and morals. I do good because it is GOOD, not because God told me to. And no, I'm not particularly afraid of death either.
After all I'll be dead and so won't be able to comprehend it.

So when you die all the feelings you have ever had will all go in vain? All the love, pain, work, and hope you have ever felt will die with you? Like I said before, there are to many beautiful things in this world for there not to be God. I deeply belive in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. No one can tell me that all the feelings that I have had and all the impossible things that have happened in my life just came about on accident. I won't sit here and call atheists stupid, they are just doing the "popular" thing to do right now.

I also agree. Now I'm not sure about whether I believe in the Cathlic Chruch, but I definitely belong to the Catholic Church in all respects. (BTW, you twits, "Catholic" means universal in this context, not Roman Catholic!) Although I actually am Roman Catholic.

A story I once heard told of a man who, as he died, bewailed his fate. He said, "When I was young I dreamed of changing the world. As I grew older, I diminished my goals to changing my country. Then, as that dream faded, I resolved anew to change my community. As I grew old and frail, having failed even that, I tried to change my family. Now, as I die, I realize that it was not others I needed to change, but myself."

Catholicism places culpability for sin where it belongs: on the sinner. (Which is not to say that culpability is always absolute, i.e. nature and nurture also play a part. "Sin" as a term is simply an acknowledgement of the fallen nature of this world. Humans are sinful by nature, but so is the human condition. Which is how the Church can say that the homosexual orientation is sinful: the orientation itself is an indication that this world is broken - it's not that the person who has homosexual drives is automatically sinful.) So much of the backlash against Christians is based on their insistence that the world mend its ways when they don't make the same effort. Of course, Christians need to try to make the world a better place (btw, my Protestant brethren, that sounds suspiciously like "good works"), but the primary focus must always be on one's self. Which is what Catholicism preaches. Yay for the Church!

Originally posted by: Reticuli
Christianity is riddled with corruption

You're stereotyping: Despite what you have heard James Dobson say, Christians are not all close-minded bigots.

I concede that the theodicy question is a powerful argument against the existence of a Higher Power, but to say there is no proof. No, I'd have to disagree.

Reason 1: The universe was fine-tuned. Many scientists propose the Big Bang Theory: How can something come from nothing?

Reason 2: Other accounts besides the Gospels say that Jesus of Nazareth performed miracles. It even refers to Him in the Ko'ran as "the author of the Universe"

I'm pretty sure u won't give the second reason much thought. But i think you should definitely ponder the first one.

And honestly, unicorns?

This bugs me. Why do you say that, as if it's so unrealistic? There is exactly as much proof that unicorns rule the universe as that God rules the universe. Why are unicorns so unbelievable but invisible-man-in-the-sky is obviously true?

This bugs me. Why do you say that, as if it's so unrealistic? There is exactly as much proof that unicorns rule the universe as that God rules the universe. Why are unicorns so unbelievable but invisible-man-in-the-sky is obviously true?
I don't see any holy unicorn-inspired books claiming that unicorns rule the universe. Unless, of course, you happen to have written some.

I don't see any holy unicorn-inspired books claiming that unicorns rule the universe. Unless, of course, you happen to have written some.

So if I wrote a book about it, it would give the myth of a unicorn-run universe veracity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_pink_unicorn

Why am I not a Hindu?? Because Hinduism, like every other religion out there except Christianity, relies on works to find true "salvation" (or whatever it might be called in that religion).

Only in Christianity can one find salvation by faith alone. Salvation is not "merited" as in all other religions.
Only Christianity gives true hope, by determining man's true problem. Only by determining the true problem can one find the true solution and gain hope.

For those of you who feel somewhat open to this, may I suggest an excellent book on the subject?? Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis. Originally a set of lectures delivered in the early 1940s, this collection of essays has been very widely read. He is a clear expositor and covers many of the arguments that people have surrounding the issue of Christianity.

Utter nonsense. You have no idea, I suspect, what the 'requirements' for each religion are... although you may have been told SOME version of what someone else thinks, I guess...

Why do I believe this to be so? Because there are thousands of religions on this little rock, just at this moment, and hundreds of denominations within some, and it seems like you would have to be supremely arrogant to claim to know how 'Christianity' (which has hundreds of denominations, itself, several of which focus on works) compared to all of them.

Second reason - the Bible clearly states that you cannot achieve Salvation by faith alone. "Faith without works is dead", sayeth the scripture... thus, even Christianity requires works.

Also - what makes Salvation by faith a good thing? As far as I can see, the only reason a person would think Salvation through faith was better than Salvation through works, is if they lived a selfish life, or were too lazy to do good works.

Hi buddy..

Well, not gonna do your homework.... Not gonna challenge me into proving you wrong.. Not my yob, mang...

You can perpetuate your own special brand of ignorance on ad infinitum...

Romans were "impeccable" record keepers....

Later!

What is this supposed to even mean?

There is no contemporary, independent evidence of the life or death of Jesus. This is someone who HAS done the homework, so knows whereof he speaks.

The nearest independant source would be Josephus - who (and bearing in mind, it has been argued that his Jesus references are forgeries) did not write on Jesus till about a century AFTER the fact... he wasn't even BORN at the alleged time of the cruxifixion... so, he is FAR from being a 'contemporary' source.

Do not accuse me of ignorance, friend, UNLESS you have something to back it up.

And, if all you have is Josephus and Tacitus, neither are contemporaries, and both lived too late to have been witnesses... or even to have TALKED to witnesses, in all probability.

No more sniping... you think I'm wrong, show me an earlier CONTEMPORARY, and INDEPENDENT source.

What is this supposed to even mean?

There is no contemporary, independent evidence of the life or death of Jesus. This is someone who HAS done the homework, so knows whereof he speaks.

The nearest independant source would be Josephus - who (and bearing in mind, it has been argued that his Jesus references are forgeries) did not write on Jesus till about a century AFTER the fact... he wasn't even BORN at the alleged time of the cruxifixion... so, he is FAR from being a 'contemporary' source.

Do not accuse me of ignorance, friend, UNLESS you have something to back it up.

And, if all you have is Josephus and Tacitus, neither are contemporaries, and both lived too late to have been witnesses... or even to have TALKED to witnesses, in all probability.

No more sniping... you think I'm wrong, show me an earlier CONTEMPORARY, and INDEPENDENT source.

Josephus was a Jewish general who was captured by the Romans in their Judean campaign. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. That doesn't make him too far removed from the events.

Jewish revolts and messiahs were a dime a dozen and this event was probably little more than a footnote - at the time - for the Roman authorities. He wasn't even judged by Pilate to be a revolutionary - insane perhaps but not a threat to the Roman government.

Maharlikana

Utter nonsense. You have no idea, I suspect, what the 'requirements' for each religion are... although you may have been told SOME version of what someone else thinks, I guess...

Why do I believe this to be so? Because there are thousands of religions on this little rock, just at this moment, and hundreds of denominations within some, and it seems like you would have to be supremely arrogant to claim to know how 'Christianity' (which has hundreds of denominations, itself, several of which focus on works) compared to all of them.

Second reason - the Bible clearly states that you cannot achieve Salvation by faith alone. "Faith without works is dead", sayeth the scripture... thus, even Christianity requires works.

Also - what makes Salvation by faith a good thing? As far as I can see, the only reason a person would think Salvation through faith was better than Salvation through works, is if they lived a selfish life, or were too lazy to do good works.

If you're selfish or too lazy then perhaps you're not really saved. Faith without works is dead as is works without faith. Faith INSPIRES good works but good works cannot buy you a place in heaven.

Maharlikana

Who said I wasn't an athiest?

Personally, I am not willing to believe that man has yet acquired all the knowledge in the universe. That means mankind cannot really come to any conclusion as to what all exists and what does not... You obviously take the ABSOLUTIST stand that God cannot exist.... but only because you don't wish it..

And I don't think you can possibly know that for certain... Bottom line! All the rest of this crap is a smokescreen...

Do you not get tired, with all that leaping to conclusions?

I didn't say you were an Atheist, or otherwise, at all... in fact, I've not attempted to ascribe ANY belief to you, thus far, have I?

The previous poster, (the one calling himself/herself Dr Kevorkian) set forth a fairly Atheistic conception - starting out with the fact that they didn't believe - in no uncertain terms.

For some reason, this brought forth from you a response of: "Who is going to be the judge of what "true Christianity" means? Those of you who very possibly never even so much as cracked open Bible??"

The assumption being that the poster (Dr Kevorkian) and probably most other Atheists, and other non-Christians, would have never 'cracked open the Bible'...

As I pointed out, this is a big leap, for which you have no real evidence. I, for example, am an Atheist, who has probably read more versions of the bible than the average handful of Christians combined, and not just modern English 'translations'.

What is this supposed to even mean?

There is no contemporary, independent evidence of the life or death of Jesus. This is someone who HAS done the homework, so knows whereof he speaks.

The nearest independant source would be Josephus - who (and bearing in mind, it has been argued that his Jesus references are forgeries) did not write on Jesus till about a century AFTER the fact... he wasn't even BORN at the alleged time of the cruxifixion... so, he is FAR from being a 'contemporary' source.

Do not accuse me of ignorance, friend, UNLESS you have something to back it up.

And, if all you have is Josephus and Tacitus, neither are contemporaries, and both lived too late to have been witnesses... or even to have TALKED to witnesses, in all probability.

No more sniping... you think I'm wrong, show me an earlier CONTEMPORARY, and INDEPENDENT source.

Hello,

I apologize... I did not mean to snipe... Too much coffee, I guess... If you have already eliminated the writings of the only real eye-witnesses, and you won't accept the Roman documentation, then it really is pointless to debate it further. There can be be no "film at 11"...

I guess I am not ready to dismiss any possiblilites... So I come only from the only known documentation available... Maybe there was more at the Great Library of Alexandria... But those idiot Romans burned it to the ground... Can you imagine what knowledge was lost and how far back that little mis-deed set humanity?!?!?

~DOH~

Do you not get tired, with all that leaping to conclusions?

I didn't say you were an Atheist, or otherwise, at all... in fact, I've not attempted to ascribe ANY belief to you, thus far, have I?

The previous poster, (the one calling himself/herself Dr Kevorkian) set forth a fairly Atheistic conception - starting out with the fact that they didn't believe - in no uncertain terms.

For some reason, this brought forth from you a response of: "Who is going to be the judge of what "true Christianity" means? Those of you who very possibly never even so much as cracked open Bible??"

The assumption being that the poster (Dr Kevorkian) and probably most other Atheists, and other non-Christians, would have never 'cracked open the Bible'...

As I pointed out, this is a big leap, for which you have no real evidence. I, for example, am an Atheist, who has probably read more versions of the bible than the average handful of Christians combined, and not just modern English 'translations'.

Sorry can't apologize for that one.... if they post some really blatant wrong information and ascribe it to the Bible... Then it is an obvious conclusion... That they are not familiar with the subject matter...

I suspect you would probably do the same, being familiar with the subject matter yourself! Just maybe not in the same manner?!?!?!



Peace!

Hello,

I apologize... I did not mean to snipe... Too much coffee, I guess... If you have already eliminated the writings of the only real eye-witnesses, and you won't accept the Roman documentation, then it really is pointless to debate it further. There can be be no "film at 11"...

I guess I am not ready to dismiss any possiblilites... So I come only from the only known documentation available... Maybe there was more at the Great Library of Alexandria... But those idiot Romans burned it to the ground... Can you imagine what knowledge was lost and how far back that little mis-deed set humanity?!?!?

~DOH~

Which eye witnesses? If you mean the writers of the Gospels, you must be aware that these accounts are hardly independent, and not even all written by witnesses. I'm sure you know that... try matching up the Gospel writers to the disciples.

I would accept Roman documentation if there were any - but the nearest Roman 'evidence' is written by a Jewish scholar in pay of the Romans, nearly a century later. It is not a witness testimony. It is not even based on witness testimony.

If it is anything, it is an account of rumours of the time... which makes it 'hearsay'... which is not a reliable form of evidence.

And Tacitus is even further removed.

So - the only evidence we have that there even WAS a Jesus, is one set of stories, written by initiates of a Messianic Cult... and absolutely NO verifiable, contemporary, independent accounts.

To me - this is the biggest kick-in-the-teeth. As you stated earlier, the Romans were excellent record keepers... and yet a century elapses with no mention of this desert prophet, or his supposed miracles.

Personally, I am not willing to believe that man has yet acquired all the knowledge in the universe. That means mankind cannot really come to any conclusion as to what all exists and what does not... You obviously take the ABSOLUTIST stand that God cannot exist.... but only because you don't wish it..

And I don't think you can possibly know that for certain... Bottom line! All the rest of this crap is a smokescreen...

I realise I already responded to thye first part of this (now snipped), but it occured to me I hadn't responded to the meat of the matter.

First: I do not believe man has yet acquired all the knowledge in the universe. I do not believe that man ever WILL acquire all the knowledge in the universe.

That is one of the things I guess you have to get used to, when you find yourself on the Atheist's Path.. there is so much you will never know, and you will never be given a book of 'easy answers'.

Second: You cliam I am an ABSOLUTIST - but you have no evidence for this. I see Explicit Atheism (the denial of possibility of 'gods') as a flawed concept - since it takes just as much faith as the Theist displays.

I am an Implicit Atheist... which means, I just don't believe in any gods. I don't claim their non-existence or existence... I just do not accept them as 'believable' concepts... in the same way many people treat fairies, goblins, ghosts and aliens.

Third: I have searched for a root to spiritual truth... in many places, in many sacred texts. I have found nothing that changes my 'belief'. Do not make the mistake of assuming that I 'decided' there are no gods... and do not make the mistake in assuming that is how I WANT it to be.

http://catholic.weathersweb.com/historical_jesus.php

I think Grave is right. Mostly here-say and circumstancial evidence, and very little contemporary.

And, my thanks to you, my friend, for actually looking for the 'evidence' that is so frequently CLAIMED, but so rarely supported.

Which eye witnesses? If you mean the writers of the Gospels, you must be aware that these accounts are hardly independent, and not even all written by witnesses. I'm sure you know that... try matching up the Gospel writers to the disciples.

I would accept Roman documentation if there were any - but the nearest Roman 'evidence' is written by a Jewish scholar in pay of the Romans, nearly a century later. It is not a witness testimony. It is not even based on witness testimony.

If it is anything, it is an account of rumours of the time... which makes it 'hearsay'... which is not a reliable form of evidence.

And Tacitus is even further removed.

So - the only evidence we have that there even WAS a Jesus, is one set of stories, written by initiates of a Messianic Cult... and absolutely NO verifiable, contemporary, independent accounts.

To me - this is the biggest kick-in-the-teeth. As you stated earlier, the Romans were excellent record keepers... and yet a century elapses with no mention of this desert prophet, or his supposed miracles.

Hehehehe... Romans saw Jesus as nothing more than a common criminal... I doubt they would document anything more than the execution...

Hindsight is 20/20... During Jesus time, storytellers and scribes were how things were recorded... No vid-tape...

I get the impression (me only) that you expect Christianity, Islam, Hinduism*, to meet some hard evidence criteria. It can't... it won't.... it shouldn't... Spiritual things do not lend themselves to scientific scrutiny.. It would be like trying to drive a nail, with a pair of snips...

*Since Athiesm is a disbelief in any Supreme Being.... I didn't wanna pick just one singly...

Spiritual things can only be quantified with spiritual tools..

They tend to exist in that part of our brains that is tied to intuition, and imagination... Not pragmaticism and logic...

But somewhere in the control center, one must be open to ALL the possibilities in the universe.... I don't think I want to dismiss anything...

That's just me.. and it sure makes for great debate, eh!

Hello,

I apologize... I did not mean to snipe... Too much coffee, I guess... If you have already eliminated the writings of the only real eye-witnesses, and you won't accept the Roman documentation, then it really is pointless to debate it further. There can be be no "film at 11"...

I guess I am not ready to dismiss any possiblilites... So I come only from the only known documentation available... Maybe there was more at the Great Library of Alexandria... But those idiot Romans burned it to the ground... Can you imagine what knowledge was lost and how far back that little mis-deed set humanity?!?!?

~DOH~

Great civilizations mould history in their own image. The Persians burned down the Acropolis in Athens (before Salamis). The Greeks of Alexander burned Persepolis. The Romans killed Archimedes. And the list goes on.

But when you think of all the ancient manuscripts that were lost or the ones we have not are either incomplete or tenth or twentieth copies of copies, don't you think the fact that the bible is not only intact, but the best documented and generally the most in agreement with itself (there are differences but they are minor) after all this time, says something about it?

Maharlikana

So... We expect the past to be all in neat little web-sites.. Organized and cross-filed for your conveniences? I see.. So.. Jesus is now on trial, and he has to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that He existed.. and therefor did or didn't die on the cross...

You folks are far too much!

Raise your right hand and repeat after me: "I swear to believe everything I read and see on the internet.. no matter what the source...."

Incredible.... and easily manipulated...

Do not give me links.. I won't honor them... I don't believe anything I see on the net... Especially if it comes from a biased source.. uh duh!

You obviously have more faith in strangers than I do.... Sheeesh...

Gosheeple....

What a strange fellow... no wonder you cannot provide evidence... it seems you do not 'believe' in it?

The site that Willamena linked was, indeed, a biased source, potentially.

That taken into account, however, (the bias is actually PRO-Christian.. it is a Catholic site), there is still no extant contemporary evidence.

The reason why a site like this could be useful, is that it supports other evidence I have seen. I have looked for evidence of the existence of this 'Jesus', and found none outside of the collected writings of the followers of a Nazarene. This Catholic site actually claims pretty much what my research has uncovered, although I'd argue a few points with them.

Jesus is not 'now on trial' and having to prove he exists. Those who claim him as a REAL individual (especially one to whom they attribute magical powers, and such great historic significance) should provide evidence of his reality... if they wish their claims to be taken seriously.

But, unfortunately, the evidence just does not exist.

I realise I already responded to thye first part of this (now snipped), but it occured to me I hadn't responded to the meat of the matter.

First: I do not believe man has yet acquired all the knowledge in the universe. I do not believe that man ever WILL acquire all the knowledge in the universe.

That is one of the things I guess you have to get used to, when you find yourself on the Atheist's Path.. there is so much you will never know, and you will never be given a book of 'easy answers'.

Second: You cliam I am an ABSOLUTIST - but you have no evidence for this. I see Explicit Atheism (the denial of possibility of 'gods') as a flawed concept - since it takes just as much faith as the Theist displays.

I am an Implicit Atheist... which means, I just don't believe in any gods. I don't claim their non-existence or existence... I just do not accept them as 'believable' concepts... in the same way many people treat fairies, goblins, ghosts and aliens.

Third: I have searched for a root to spiritual truth... in many places, in many sacred texts. I have found nothing that changes my 'belief'. Do not make the mistake of assuming that I 'decided' there are no gods... and do not make the mistake in assuming that is how I WANT it to be.

Well, now that you have FULLY explained your position, I retract the "Absolutist" comment. I only had what you had posted in the previous post to determine whether your postition was explicit or implicit.. You made it appear quite explicit .. or maybe it as how I read it (my internal inflection)

Thanks for clearing that up.... I am not here to try and change your "belief".. Not my thing.. My thing is "discussion".. and "debate". I can take any position on any number of subjects... "resolved:"

I really enjoy it when people use "cliche's" or parrot others views... They are most quickly debunked and dispatched in debate... Those who get emotional are just too easy a target.. I try and leave those alone...

You are a worthy opponent! :D

Internet is not homework.... Who taught you how to do research? Donald Duck?

Didn't anyone explain multiple source and double-blind? Checks and cross references?

Not some dude with a website who sounds cooool.... uh duh...

So you didn't even look at the site once, then...

Hardly the foundation of a good refutation of validity...

Which eye witnesses? If you mean the writers of the Gospels, you must be aware that these accounts are hardly independent, and not even all written by witnesses. I'm sure you know that... try matching up the Gospel writers to the disciples.

I would accept Roman documentation if there were any - but the nearest Roman 'evidence' is written by a Jewish scholar in pay of the Romans, nearly a century later. It is not a witness testimony. It is not even based on witness testimony.

If it is anything, it is an account of rumours of the time... which makes it 'hearsay'... which is not a reliable form of evidence.

And Tacitus is even further removed.

So - the only evidence we have that there even WAS a Jesus, is one set of stories, written by initiates of a Messianic Cult... and absolutely NO verifiable, contemporary, independent accounts.

To me - this is the biggest kick-in-the-teeth. As you stated earlier, the Romans were excellent record keepers... and yet a century elapses with no mention of this desert prophet, or his supposed miracles.

Just because they weren't apostles doesn't mean they weren't witnesses. The four gospels were dictated by either the apostles themselves, close witnesses (Dr.Luke) or the apostle's own disciples (ie.Polycarp disciple of John the Apostle) and independently verifiable by the witnesses who lived at the time. What you are asking for, a Newsweek or Time Magazine up to the minute kind of report doesn't exist for virtually any ancient manuscript. Or do you want to throw out Herodotus the Father of History, Julius Caesar's Commentaries and pretty much everything else?

Maharlikana

What a strange fellow... no wonder you cannot provide evidence... it seems you do not 'believe' in it?

The site that Willamena linked was, indeed, a biased source, potentially.

That taken into account, however, (the bias is actually PRO-Christian.. it is a Catholic site), there is still no extant contemporary evidence.

The reason why a site like this could be useful, is that it supports other evidence I have seen. I have looked for evidence of the existence of this 'Jesus', and found none outside of the collected writings of the followers of a Nazarene. This Catholic site actually claims pretty much what my research has uncovered, although I'd argue a few points with them.

Jesus is not 'now on trial' and having to prove he exists. Those who claim him as a REAL individual (especially one to whom they attribute magical powers, and such great historic significance) should provide evidence of his reality... if they wish their claims to be taken seriously.

But, unfortunately, the evidence just does not exist.

It is my belief that any bias taints the intent. I would rather abandon the discussion, then to produce tainted "so called" evidence...

I believe the existance of Jesus is only proven by the endurance of the following across the 2000 years, with no real signs of diminishing. Maybe in the US, but belief in Christianity is picking up in China and many other "oppressed" countries. It seems that the more Christianity is "oppressed and forbidden", the more it thrives.... History does bear that out, without a lot of "research"...

I find that very interesting... and intriguing..

Thanks!

So you didn't even look at the site once, then...

Hardly the foundation of a good refutation of validity...

I saw the name "catholic" in the url... I don't have to go there.... The bias is apparent..

I appreciate and acknowledge the effort tho...

Give me some credit! ;)

It is my belief that any bias taints the intent. I would rather abandon the discussion, then to produce tainted "so called" evidence...

I believe the existance of Jesus is only proven by the endurance of the following across the 2000 years, with no real signs of diminishing. Maybe in the US, but belief in Christianity is picking up in China and many other "oppressed" countries. It seems that the more one oppresses Christianity, the more it thrives.... History does bear that out, without a lot of "research"...

I find that very interesting... and intriguing..
This happens no matter what religion is oppressed, not just Christianity. Take the Tibetians, for example; they've come under Chinese rule, yet the Monks are still there.

Then there's Witchcraft: it went underground in many countries, and is popping back up all over the place.

Interesting argument, but not good enough.

The funny and touching thing throughout the centuries is how the faith has flourished under periods of the most severe persecution. In Soviet Russia's gulags, in Red China, in the Middle East... since the days of ancient Jerusalem and Rome. The true believers who will not strike down their persecutors but pray for them and forgive them for the bullet to the brain, who are peacemakers yet display courage worthy of a VC or MoH under threat of torture and death. Do you know what they had to do to live (under the rule of the Roman Emperors) - sprinkle a tiny bit of incense on an altar to the divine Caesar. They didn't even have to give up their God. But they refused and were torched or fed to lions.

That certainly speaks volumes about Christ who they serve. If he was a looney, why didn't they die out like messianic cults? Until politics reared its ugly head they didn't advocate violence as a means to conversion and many Roman army soldiers and officers were martyred because their new faith commanded them not to kill. The Roman pagan governors complained that they were taking care of the hungry, widows, poor and lepers better than the Roman civil service (and converting more by their love).

Sometimes a little persecution - well, a great persecution - can do wonders, like gold put through a furnace, burning away impurities. What the Christians in China or the Middle East go through and their attitude towards it puts a lot of us in the west to shame.

Maharlikana

This happens no matter what religion is oppressed, not just Christianity. Take the Tibetians, for example; they've come under Chinese rule, yet the Monks are still there.

Then there's Witchcraft: it went underground in many countries, and is popping back up all over the place.

Interesting argument, but not good enough.

Thanks... it was not meant as a "convincer"... My friend and I were discussing Christianity specifically in this instance...

But I suppose it could apply to anything... We humans are a rebellious lot, and always will find a way to get something we're not supposed to have... That goes for religion, drugs.. Prohibition and alcohol...

I am not here to sell or endorse religion... of any brand... I only am in it for the debate...

Thanks... it was not meant as a "convincer"... My friend and I were discussing Christianity specifically in this instance...

But I suppose it could apply to anything... We humans are a rebellious lot, and always will find a way to get something we're not supposed to have... That goes for religion, drugs.. Prohibition and alcohol...

I am not here to sell religion... of any brand... I only am in it for the debate...
:p Heh. You and my mother! She loves to debate things, although we stay away from politics (she thinks I'm liberal; I think she's been brainwashed by Bush's propaganda media machine & Fox News. See what I mean? ;) )

Seriously.... if you get into an argument with my mom, be prepared to show proof or get verbally run over. :D

:p Heh. You and my mother! She loves to debate things, although we stay away from politics (she thinks I'm liberal; I think she's been brainwashed by Bush's propaganda media machine & Fox News. See what I mean? ;) )

Seriously.... if you get into an argument with my mom, be prepared to show proof or get verbally run over. :D

hehehehe.. You need to give her the URL and show her how to navigate into here.... Moms are like that ya know....

That would make for some entertaining debates... and I say that not knowing what she'd talk about... :D

I wonder if becoming parents makes one religious and republican? I am not really asking.. I am being funny... THAT discussion would be too far afield of topic...

~DOH~

hehehehe.. You need to give her the URL and show her how to navigate into here.... Moms are like that ya know....

That would make for some entertaining debates... and I say that not knowing what she'd talk about... :D
0.0 Seriously? She'd not stay long. If it's not about crafts or genealogy, she's not interested. A friend dragged me in here, so I decided to give "playing leader" a try. I'm not too bad at it..... ;)

The funny and touching thing throughout the centuries is how the faith has flourished under periods of the most severe persecution. In Soviet Russia's gulags, in Red China, in the Middle East... since the days of ancient Jerusalem and Rome. The true believers who will not strike down their persecutors but pray for them and forgive them for the bullet to the brain, who are peacemakers yet display courage worthy of a VC or MoH under threat of torture and death. Do you know what they had to do to live (under the rule of the Roman Emperors) - sprinkle a tiny bit of incense on an altar to the divine Caesar. They didn't even have to give up their God. But they refused and were torched or fed to lions.

That certainly speaks volumes about Christ who they serve. If he was a looney, why didn't they die out like messianic cults? Until politics reared its ugly head they didn't advocate violence as a means to conversion and many Roman army soldiers and officers were martyred because their new faith commanded them not to kill. The Roman pagan governors complained that they were taking care of the hungry, widows, poor and lepers better than the Roman civil service (and converting more by their love).

Sometimes a little persecution - well, a great persecution - can do wonders, like gold put through a furnace, burning away impurities. What the Christians in China or the Middle East go through and their attitude towards it puts a lot of us in the west to shame.

Maharlikana

I can't find fault with your facts here... Thanks for fleshing out the details of what I was referring to in my post....

Intriguing and interesting... Because so many "religions" have faded away into antiquity, yet this one spread around the world... I speak specfically of the Roman pantheon of gods they worshipped as undeniably the most powerful dynasty in history.. The Egyptian pantheon... in the cradle of civilisation.... to name but a few....

Intriguing and interesting....

It is my belief that any bias taints the intent. I would rather abandon the discussion, then to produce tainted "so called" evidence...

I believe the existance of Jesus is only proven by the endurance of the following across the 2000 years, with no real signs of diminishing. Maybe in the US, but belief in Christianity is picking up in China and many other "oppressed" countries. It seems that the more Christianity is "oppressed and forbidden", the more it thrives.... History does bear that out, without a lot of "research"...

I find that very interesting... and intriguing..

Thanks!

History bears nothing out - without research.

See what I mean? If you can't provide evidence that something happened, then it bears out nothing... historically, or otherwise.

And, just because a story lasts a while, doesn't guarantee any sort of truth... nor does the number of adherents to that story.

There are Native American beliefs that seem relatively untouched for the entire span of occupation of the American continent... thus, those stories must be about 9,000+ years old... which makes them nearly 4 times MORE true than Christianity, if 'durability' is your measure.

Logically - there is no such thing as 'bad evidence'... even a 'tainted source' (as you call it) has the potential to be absolutely accurate... you just have to corroborate that 'evidence'.

It is a logical fallacy to refuse 'evidence' just because you question the bias of the source.

Just because they weren't apostles doesn't mean they weren't witnesses. The four gospels were dictated by either the apostles themselves, close witnesses (Dr.Luke) or the apostle's own disciples (ie.Polycarp disciple of John the Apostle) and independently verifiable by the witnesses who lived at the time. What you are asking for, a Newsweek or Time Magazine up to the minute kind of report doesn't exist for virtually any ancient manuscript. Or do you want to throw out Herodotus the Father of History, Julius Caesar's Commentaries and pretty much everything else?

Maharlikana

You assumptions are insupportable... Luke was not present at the Crucifixion, and neither was John - so neither should be accorded ANY value as witness testimony... since neither is a witness.

And, of course, none of the Gospels are independent, or even independently corroborated anywhere.

I don't need a Newsweek article, obviously - although one would be nice, especially if it had photographic evidence.

The big problem with scriptural testimony, is that so much is pseudepigraphical. The Book of Enoch is unlikely to have been written by the patriarch Enoch. The Pentatauch were definitely NOT written by Moses... so why attach any special significance to a document JUST because the writer CLAIMS to have been an apotle?

Well, now that you have FULLY explained your position, I retract the "Absolutist" comment. I only had what you had posted in the previous post to determine whether your postition was explicit or implicit.. You made it appear quite explicit .. or maybe it as how I read it (my internal inflection)

Thanks for clearing that up.... I am not here to try and change your "belief".. Not my thing.. My thing is "discussion".. and "debate". I can take any position on any number of subjects... "resolved:"

I really enjoy it when people use "cliche's" or parrot others views... They are most quickly debunked and dispatched in debate... Those who get emotional are just too easy a target.. I try and leave those alone...

You are a worthy opponent! :D

Why thank you, my friend... I agree with your position (as I view it)... that being that debate is a worthy pusuit in, and of, itself.

I am not seeking to convert anyone... I have no platform to rally them around, so why would I try to persuade them? My 'mission' if you will, is debate for the intellectual stimulation and edification... I have learned much through this debate forum.

During that process, however, I am not averse to showing the flaws in evidentiary support, assumption, or logic - that lie at the heart of many people's arguments. And, if I can make them think about those issues, I feel that I have done a worthwhile thing.

I won't sit here and call atheists stupid, they are just doing the "popular" thing to do right now.

First off, I think that people are stupid if they do something just because it's popular. Second, I think it is a terrible discredit to many atheists to assume they do it just because it's popular - not to mention how false it is in many cases. Some of us find the concept of some sort of higher power to be a manifestation of the typical human fear of death, myself included. And in many places, being anything but Christian can draw excessive ridicule and bigotry, sometimes even violence.

Oh, and by the way, the same (the quote) could be said for Christians. From what I've seen here in the States, there are more Christians than anything else.

To me, religion seems to be the desperate attempt of people trying to find meaning in life. Believing so hard that we have something to live for. It's a terrifying thought at times, that we are alone without a purpose, and for this reason, people subscribe to religion.

Taking the cold, scientific view is just as respectable (though sometimes scarier) as any religious calling.

First off, I think that people are stupid if they do something just because it's popular. Second, I think it is a terrible discredit to many atheists to assume they do it just because it's popular - not to mention how false it is in many cases. Some of us find the concept of some sort of higher power to be a manifestation of the typical human fear of death, myself included. And in many places, being anything but Christian can draw excessive ridicule and bigotry, sometimes even violence.

Oh, and by the way, the same (the quote) could be said for Christians. From what I've seen here in the States, there are more Christians than anything else.

Christians are being called bigots, weak, dumb, and scared. How popular does that sound? Oh and we all know how Hollywood and the media portray Christians don't we. Real popular! I live in Oklahoma where Christians are a huge majority and I have never heard of any of us terrible Christians getting violent with any body that does not belive in God. To be honest, that is one of the most dumb things I have ever heard. On a lighter side, I have thought about getting violent with those Mormons that wake me up every Saturday morning though.

If you don't belive in God or Jesus than that is your business and I will respect that. But you can't act surpised or offended when a Christian gets upset by Atheists that are calling us weak and saying that all the feelings and emotions that Christians feel when we have close relationships with God are all fake. I choose to belive that God loves me and all of us for that matter. Sometimes I wonder why God does let things happen but I think it is more than an accident when things all work out. Especially the impossible events in my own life.

Excuse me?

Almost every single religion has this free undeserved gift known as "you shall be saved" (which you call grace). Christianity is no different than Islam or Judaism. Even Buddhism says that, in the end, you will become one with the universe. Pray tell, what other religion have you studied before saying such monstrocities as that quote?

Don't read me wrong, I've nothing against Christianity per say. I just find it dubious that this one is the one and no other can be the one. Where's your reasoning behind that?

Good Sir,

You seemed to have misunderstood me. Yes most if not all religions say 'You will be saved' but Christianity is radically different in that we don't have to do anything at all to get it. All other religions I have looked at, you have to do certain things or follow rules, but not in Christianity. We have to do nothing to earn Eternal Life in Heaven because Jesus has already paid the price for us by dying on the cross. Therefore I am free to live my life to the fullest, not living under any rules, but in a personal loving relationship with the creator of the entire universe and his risen son Jesus and the Holy Spirit living inside of me. Now thats awesome!!!

So again, I apologise for any confusion but Christian is radically different in that you have to do nothing to earn the gift of eternal life. In this way it is a free gift.

Look to God. I dare you to challenge him to show himself to you!!!

Andy

I'm a non-practicing Catholic, so I can't join in on the religion debates...

Simonist']You know what? I WASN'T LIKENING THEM TO THE BIBLE. If you people can't understand what I'm trying to say, just drop it.

Where did I mention the bible? Apparently it is you who has trouble following the conversation.

Yes, I believe that statement to be true.

Having said that:

1. I don't believe that anyone, including christians of any sect, have the right to foist their beliefs on others.
2. I don't believe in organized religion. Organized religions, as well meaning as they start, result in dogma and ritualized behaviors, and arguments about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. (opening for a pun about pinheads...)

1. I don't believe that anyone, including christians of any sect, have the right to foist their beliefs on others.
Wait a sec... is that a belief of yours being foisted on us?

Wait a sec... is that a belief of yours being foisted on us?No, it isn't. That is a belief of mine being voiced under the right of free speech - and in response to the author of this thread posting an open question to all christians.

It isn't me trying to turn my personal religious belief into a law.

Yes, I believe that statement to be true.

Having said that:

1. I don't believe that anyone, including christians of any sect, have the right to foist their beliefs on others.
2. I don't believe in organized religion. Organized religions, as well meaning as they start, result in dogma and ritualized behaviors, and arguments about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. (opening for a pun about pinheads...)


Hello.... I need some help here....

1) Define "foist"? By that, do you mean to contend that no one may discuss anything with anyone if it is religious in nature? Does that mean that someone's free speech rights are to be denied if the topic is their faith? This needs to be "framed" in this discussion...

2) That's opinion, and that's fine.. Free country and all that! Many religions have their own rituals... Just like "Burning Man"...

Anyway, I believe the word "foist" is misused in this context.. Unless you can explain how you mean it...

Thanks...

Hello.... I need some help here....

1) Define "foist"? By that, do you mean to contend that no one may discuss anything with anyone if it is religious in nature? Does that mean that someone's free speech rights are to be denied if the topic is their faith? This needs to be "framed" in this discussion...

2) That's opinion, and that's fine.. Free country and all that! Many religions have their own rituals... Just like "Burning Man"...

Anyway, I believe the word "foist" is misused in this context.. Unless you can explain how you mean it...

Thanks...Foist - as in:

1. Making ones religion the "national" religion
2. Legislating religious beliefs into law

I'm not talking about restricting anyone's right to freedom of speech here. I'm talking about NOT restricting anyone's right to worship in the way the choose - or not worship, if that is what they choose - without having religion or religious beliefs required of them by government or law.

You know....I've been gone for six days. And in six days, all the things I missed, I don't see any new arguments from either side. It's just like every other religious debate that's graced the forums, and like every other religious debate will be. I'm going to completely separate myself from the ongoing cat-fight between God's FAN CLUB and their Major Opposition and just say, you're all wasting a lot of your own and each others' time. If everybody's so morally strong on both sides of the fence, and so set in their ways, then why sit at your computer screen and bicker? Go make the world a better place, go read a book to a child, go.....get a job or a hobby or a boy/girlfriend or SOMETHING. There's more to life than proving whether or not you're right, because either way you're going to die, right or wrong.

I have no issue with any religion, religious group, or religious person/persons as long as they are willing to allow religious freedom to EVERYONE else.

But I do have issues, serious issues, with those who want to put their belief of beliefs into law. Because that interfers with the religious freedoms of others. And, I find a fairly large contradiction between the beliefs espoused by most of the fundamentalist christians out there evangelizing, and their behavior - especially those trying to influence legislation towards their particular religious belief(s).

That contradicion being that part of the fundamentalist christian dogma always touted is the self-determination thing - freedom to choose, free will, however it be phrased. How does that reconcile with the acts of those who supposedly believe in this idea as they go around trying to have their beliefs formed into legislation, so that the freedom to choose is restricted, limited, or eliminated?

Simonist']You know....I've been gone for six days. And in six days, all the things I missed, I don't see any new arguments from either side. It's just like every other religious debate that's graced the forums, and like every other religious debate will be. I'm going to completely separate myself from the ongoing cat-fight between God's FAN CLUB and their Major Opposition and just say, you're all wasting a lot of your own and each others' time. If everybody's so morally strong on both sides of the fence, and so set in their ways, then why sit at your computer screen and bicker? Go make the world a better place, go read a book to a child, go.....get a job or a hobby or a boy/girlfriend or SOMETHING. There's more to life than proving whether or not you're right, because either way you're going to die, right or wrong.

Nothing wrong with enjoying a good debate, is there???

i'd never believe in god if you paid me to

i'd never believe in god if you paid me tothe other side of that coin is - is god (leaving off the "G" to be amicable - i'm not big on form and format) paid enough to believe in you?

Jucitopia']Good Sir,

You seemed to have misunderstood me. Yes most if not all religions say 'You will be saved' but Christianity is radically different in that we don't have to do anything at all to get it. All other religions I have looked at, you have to do certain things or follow rules, but not in Christianity. We have to do nothing to earn Eternal Life in Heaven because Jesus has already paid the price for us by dying on the cross. Therefore I am free to live my life to the fullest, not living under any rules, but in a personal loving relationship with the creator of the entire universe and his risen son Jesus and the Holy Spirit living inside of me. Now thats awesome!!!

So again, I apologise for any confusion but Christian is radically different in that you have to do nothing to earn the gift of eternal life. In this way it is a free gift.

Look to God. I dare you to challenge him to show himself to you!!!

Andy
I'm afraid that most, if not all, branches of Christianity ask that you believe to be saved. So, there is a requirement to earn eternal life. I will grant that salvation under the Christian faith is easier than, say, buddhism. If you ask me, it can be seen as a strenght and a weakness. But it is patently false to say that salvation is free under the Christian religion. If it were true, there would be no need for hell.

BTW, Challenging God to show himself is a flawed concept. First, I have to believe that some things which I can explain otherwise are inspired by a divine being I may or may not believe in. If I don't believe in him, the exercise is going to fail anyways.

Second, If I do find evidence of a god, there's no saying which god it is. Furthermore, if I agree with the single god theory, I find another problem facing me as the Hebrew G-d, the Christian God and the Muslim Allah are the same divine being. So which prophet should I follow?

the other side of that coin is - is god (leaving off the "G" to be amicable - i'm not big on form and format) paid enough to believe in you?

Or from another angle, since money doesn't buy love, perhaps it couldn't buy belief either.

Ah - it's all a load of hooey.
Faith is personal choice. If you want to believe in an invisible man who watches over you, all the power to you.
Religion is a method of generating money and exerting control. Religion manipulates faith to an end.

Me? Atheist? How'd ya guess?

Ah - it's all a load of hooey.
Faith is personal choice. If you want to believe in an invisible man who watches over you, all the power to you.
Religion is a method of generating money and exerting control. Religion manipulates faith to an end.

Me? Atheist? How'd ya guess?It isn't necessary to believe in organized religion to believe in God.

I'm not.

Having said that, I do respect everybody for their beliefs (however extreme) and even still respect Christian's/Catholics despite being told I will go to Hell for not worshipping the Trinity.

I'm actually a Pagan. There were years of my life where I didn't believe in anything, despite wanting too. I personally couldn't be a Christian/Catholic because I'm also slightly Scientific - so to see no visible proof of a God (or forms of) just seemed wrong.

Then I found Paganism. Worshipping nature and giving thanks to something I can actually see, smell, touch, feel, and hear is a remarkable experiance and ringed true, for me at least.

In short, like with race, too much emphesis is placed on religion. We should all accept everybody for who and what we are, with no concequences.

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)



you know many peole say that they are christian but many of them are rasists, bandits criminalists , they are killing and cheating and they say they are christians? its silly don't you think so? I dont say that every christians are bad people but moste of them they are for sure:)

you know many peole say that they are christian but many of them are rasists, bandits criminalists , they are killing and cheating and they say they are christians? its silly don't you think so? I dont say that every christians are bad people but moste of them they are for sure:)

Oh man, bumper sticker time...

"Christians aren't perfect, Just forgiven"

Oh man, bumper sticker time...

"Christians aren't perfect, Just forgiven"

That's probably a better one than "Christians do it on their knees"....

Oh man, bumper sticker time...

"Christians aren't perfect, Just forgiven"
Ohhh bumper sticker time!!!

I like this one

http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist.4460965

you know many peole say that they are christian but many of them are rasists, bandits criminalists , they are killing and cheating and they say they are christians? its silly don't you think so? I dont say that every christians are bad people but moste of them they are for sure:)Not really. The truth of the matter is that most christians, just like most of any other "flavor" of people (whether you choose to "sort" on religion, race, gender, age, hair color, or planet of origin), are NOT bad people.

It's just that it seems the bad apples in every group (again, "sort" as you like) are the loud pushy ones. The good ones - the majority of any group -are quietly going about the business of being good people.

The only exception I can think of is if you choose to "select" the group we call "criminals" - then, the majority will be bad.

--------------------------------------------------

re: bumper stickers - My favorite is for English Teachers...

Metaphors Be With You

Why does it matter if everybody is Christian or not?

All religions agree that people ought to be good to each other. The rest is mostly just window dressing. God even told me so--

I was like: "Hey God, whaddup with all this Earthly suffering? People are fighting because they can't agree what you are."

and God was like: "Hey man, don't worry about me, worry about your fellow man, dude..."

and I was like: "Righteous. Hey, thanks, God"

and God was like: "Word."

and then I asked: "Hey, God man, can I have webbed feet?"

and God said: "No. Freak."

Why does it matter if everybody is Christian or not?

All religions agree that people ought to be good to each other. The rest is mostly just window dressing. God even told me so--

I was like: "Hey God, whaddup with all this Earthly suffering? People are fighting because they can't agree what you are."

and God was like: "Hey man, don't worry about me, worry about your fellow man, dude..."

and I was like: "Righteous. Hey, thanks, God"

and God was like: "Word."

and then I asked: "Hey, God man, can I have webbed feet?"

and God said: "No. Freak."
Haha! Thank you for that.

I like this bumper sticker as well!
http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist.5802411

All organized religon is corrupt, from buddism to christianity. But to the extent of my knowledge, christianity is the only one who forces people to convert by raping the culture and infecting the people with guilt, until they have no choice to either convert or to turn to a extreme religon, that many hide because they are afraid of what everyone else will think. Is that true freedom? Dammed religon...

All organized religon is corrupt, from buddism to christianity. But to the extent of my knowledge, christianity is the only one who forces people to convert by raping the culture and infecting the people with guilt, until they have no choice to either convert or to turn to a extreme religon, that many hide because they are afraid of what everyone else will think. Is that true freedom? Dammed religon...
Buddhism is not really a organized religion in the conventional sense of the word, but yes there is lots of potential for abuse with organized religion

Any organization that supposedly has a corner on the “truth” for its followers and is not required to back any of these “truths” up with fact (because their followers are supposed to have ‘faith’) has large potential for abuse

Haha! Thank you for that.

YVW :) Dat's what I'm here for. Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that's what we're all here for... making each other laugh & be happy & stuff...

It's like; why do we spend so much time doing this: :headbang: ?
When we could all be spending so much more time doing this :fluffle: ?

I think it's because some people think it's more cool to :mp5: in the name of whatever, and all the rest of us can do is :rolleyes:

Oh boy, do I need to get out more or what?

Come to Moglajerhamishbergenha! It's not the home of the brave or the land of the free, it's the free brave land of home... or something like that. You can figure it out when you get here. There's cake! :D

YVW :) Dat's what I'm here for. Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that's what we're all here for... making each other laugh & be happy & stuff...

It's like; why do we spend so much time doing this: :headbang: ?
When we could all be spending so much more time doing this :fluffle: ?

I think it's because some people think it's more cool to :mp5: in the name of whatever, and all the rest of us can do is :rolleyes:

Oh boy, do I need to get out more or what?

Come to Moglajerhamishbergenha! It's not the home of the brave or the land of the free, it's the free brave land of home... or something like that. You can figure it out when you get here. There's cake! :DThere should always be cake!

After all, if there weren't cake, than what would Marie Antoinette have said "Let them eat" when she was told there wasn't any bread for the peasants?

No evidence has been presented for gods existing so, I cannot assent to the claims of the theist.

I am militant agnostic, I don't know and NEITHER DO YOU and based on the information in the world an atheist. There are no gods or at least none that have any effect on the universe which makes them essentially nonexistant.

No evidence has been presented for gods existing so, I cannot assent to the claims of the theist.

I am militant agnostic, I don't know and NEITHER DO YOU and based on the information in the world an atheist. There are no gods or at least none that have any effect on the universe which makes them essentially nonexistant.You're statement being in bold type doesn't make it any truer. Or, any more false. Just bold.

My opinion is that neither you or I can prove the existance of god/gods. Nor can you or I disprove that existance. And, based on the same information in the same world that you inhabit, I find the existance of a god to be indisputable. I am not a "religionist" - I personally do not believe in any organized religion.

But I look around, both externally and internally, and cannot imagine that everything from neutrons to neurons to novas to supernovas just sort of happened. I see something behind it all - something with infinite patience, and a plan that must have taken as many billions of years to develop as it has taken to begin to unfold.

And I cannot answer the questions I have, either. How can the god I believe in allow some of the things that are happening/have happened?

There is often a large grain of truth in jokes. Like the one about the debate between an atheist and god. The debate went on for some time, and the atheist claimed that given the right conditions, he could generate life just as easily as god could. They agreed to test this theory. The atheist decided to go first.

"How to you plan to proceed?" God asked.

"I'm going to do it just like they claim you did it," responded the atheist, "I'll just gather up some dirt..."

"Oh, no," said god, "Make your own dirt."

of course not ....

Let's look at the Heterotroph Hypothesis, the theory most academic individuals believe in:

Humankind has always wondered about its origins and the origins of the life around it. Many cultures have ancient creation myths that explain the origin of the Earth and its life. In Western cultures, ideas about evolution were originally based on the Bible. The book of Genesis relates how God created all life on Earth about 6,000 years ago in a mass creation event. Proponents of creationism support the Genesis account and state that species were created exactly as they are currently found in nature. This oldest formal conception of the origin of life still has proponents today.
However, about 200 years ago, scientific evidence began to cast doubt on creationism. This evidence comes in a variety of forms.

Rock and Fossil Formation

Fossils provide the only direct evidence of the history of evolution. Fossil formation occurs when sediment covers some material or fills an impression. Very gradually, heat and pressure harden the sediment and surrounding minerals replace it, creating fossils. Fossils of prehistoric life can be bones, shells, or teeth that are buried in rock, and they can also be traces of leaves or footprints left behind by organisms.
Together, fossils can be used to construct a fossil record that offers a timeline of fossils reaching back through history. To puzzle together the fossil record, scientists have to be able to date the fossils to a certain time period. The strata of rock in which fossils are found give clues about their relative ages. If two fossils are found in the same geographic location, but one is found in a layer of sediment that is beneath the other layer, it is likely that the fossil in the lower layer is from an earlier era. After all, the first layer of sediment had to already be on the ground in order for the second layer to begin to build up on top of it. In addition to sediment layers, new techniques such as radioactive decay or carbon dating can also help determine a fossil’s age.

Comparative Anatomy

Scientists often try to determine the relatedness of two organisms by comparing external and internal structures. The study of comparative anatomy is an extension of the logical reasoning that organisms with similar structures must have acquired these traits from a common ancestor. For example, the flipper of a whale and a human arm seem to be quite different when looked at on the outside. But the bone structure of each is surprisingly similar, suggesting that whales and humans have a common ancestor way back in prehistory. Anatomical features in different species that point to a common ancestor are called homologous structures.

However, comparative anatomists cannot just assume that every similar structure points to a common evolutionary origin. A hasty and reckless comparative anatomist might assume that bats and insects share a common ancestor, since both have wings. But a closer look at the structure of the wings shows that there is very little in common between them besides their function. In fact, the bat wing is much closer in structure to the arm of a man and the fin of a whale than it is to the wings of an insect. In other words, bats and insects evolved their ability to fly along two very separate evolutionary paths. These sorts of structures, which have superficial similarities because of similarity of function but do not result from a common ancestor, are called analogous structures.

In addition to homologous and analogous structures, vestigial structures, which serve no apparent modern function, can help determine how an organism may have evolved over time. In humans the appendix is useless, but in cows and other mammalian herbivores a similar structure is used to digest cellulose. The existence of the appendix suggests that humans share a common evolutionary ancestry with other mammalian herbivores. The fact that the appendix now serves no purpose in humans demonstrates that humans and mammalian herbivores long ago diverged in their evolutionary paths.

Comparative Embryology

Homologous structures not present in adult organisms often do appear in some form during embryonic development. Species that bear little resemblance to each other in their adult forms may have strikingly similar embryonic stages. In some ways, it is almost as if the embryo passes through many evolutionary stages to produce the mature organism. For example, for a large portion of its development, the human embryo possesses a tail, much like those of our close primate relatives. This tail is usually reabsorbed before birth, but occasionally children are born with the ancestral structure intact. Even though they are not generally present in the adult organism, tails could be considered homologous traits between humans and primates.

In general, the more closely related two species are, the more their embryological processes of development resemble each other.

Molecular Evolution

Just as comparative anatomy is used to determine the anatomical relatedness of species, molecular biology can be used to determine evolutionary relationships at the molecular level. Two species that are closely related will have fewer genetic or protein differences between them than two species that are distantly related and split in evolutionary development long in the past.

Certain genes or proteins in organisms change at a constant rate over time. These genes and proteins, called molecular clocks because they are so constant in their rate of change, are especially useful in comparing the molecular evolution of different species. Scientists can use the rate of change in the gene or protein to calculate the point at which two species last shared a common ancestor. For example, ribosomal RNA has a very slow rate of change, so it is commonly used as a molecular clock to determine relationships between extremely ancient species. Cytochrome c, a protein that plays an important role in aerobic respiration, is an example of a protein commonly used as a molecular clock.
SparkNote on SAT II Biology II. 31 May. 2005 <http://www.sparknotes.com/testprep/books/sat2/biology/chapter8section1.rhtml>.

Now, is there even any evidence for this seemingly random theory that "God" created the earth? Other than writtings by those "believers"?

christianity and any other religion are like fairy tales. i dont believe in it because god doesnt care enough to give us answers. i dont beleive in a god and if god does exist it sucks....IMO

Let's look at the Heterotroph Hypothesis, the theory most academic individuals believe in:


SparkNote on SAT II Biology II. 31 May. 2005 <http://www.sparknotes.com/testprep/books/sat2/biology/chapter8section1.rhtml>.

Now, is there even any evidence for this seemingly random theory that "God" created the earth? Other than writtings by those "belivers"?..."believers"...

Is there any evidence that God did not choose to use this particular method of creating the universe, and everything in it, including you?

christianity and any other religion are like fairy tales. i dont believe in it because god doesnt care enough to give us answers. i dont beleive in a god and if god does exist it sucks....IMOAssuming for a moment that there isn't some weird dichotomy in the fact that you don't believe in god because god won't give you answers, just who are we to decide what god should do? Assume for a moment that god does exist, did create the universe, and everything in it, out of nothingness. Who are you and I to insist on answers? And, again if god exists and if the whole eternal afterlife thing also exists - then isn't it really just a matter of timing?

It's like a couple of little kids in the back seat of the car, who decide that their is no dad, because when they holler "are we there yet" after the first minute of a 6 day trip, he doesn't answer "yes".

Assuming for a moment that there isn't some weird dichotomy in the fact that you don't believe in god because god won't give you answers, just who are we to decide what god should do? Assume for a moment that god does exist, did create the universe, and everything in it, out of nothingness. Who are you and I to insist on answers? And, again if god exists and if the whole eternal afterlife thing also exists - then isn't it really just a matter of timing?

It's like a couple of little kids in the back seat of the car, who decide that their is no dad, because when they holler "are we there yet" after the first minute of a 6 day trip, he doesn't answer "yes".

i dont believe for more reasons than that. i laid it out in my thread "a loving and just god" where i argued that god is not loving and just. if it does exist he is sitting back in its chair doing. we cant know god exists without god letting us know. the ironic thing is that thousands of religions claim to have the truth about god. which is right? it would be nice for god to point in a direction but doesnt. we take guesses and that is it. our eternal souls are riding on our imperfect choices. how could a christian god for example punish us for all eternity for making the wrong choice when we have no way of seeing the right choice. its like being in a room with numerous doors and told to pick one. only one goes to heaven and all the others go to hell. how do we choose? we cant without god showing us the right way. so he gives us a book to tell us? the bible may have the truth, but i also have a koran and the vedas and others? witch is right? its impossible to know. i dont believe in god because he doesnt help us out either just lets us choose our fate blindly. at least he could let us all know he exists so that we could choose to follow him or not. how can someone who doesnt even know if a god exists give any ear to religions? (these are streaming thoughts so i hope its clear)...

My interest in Christianity begins and ends with Neon Genesis Evangelion.

The only thing I hate more than young gothic kids who say they worship Satan for "ATTENTION FOR ME" is people who are overreligious to the point where they try to push their religion on everyone else. :rolleyes:

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

Couldn't have said it better.

..."believers"...

Is there any evidence that God did not choose to use this particular method of creating the universe, and everything in it, including you?

Yea. Along with the "Big Bang Theory", these would contradict the Bible.

Yea. Along with the "Big Bang Theory", these would contradict the Bible.No, it doesn't contradict the bible - nor does the big bang theory. These things compliment the bible, providing some insight into the "how" of creation.

Unless, of course, you believe in a completely literal interpretation of Genesis - that the entire universe was created in 7 days, approximatley 4,000 years ago. In which case, everything contradicts the bible as you see it. And, if that's the case, there is no point in any further discussion between you and me - because you can't see my viewpoint, and I can't see yours. I've heard all the discussion/arguments for the 7 day/4,000 year stuff, and find them spurious.

I do have one question for those who believe creation took place in 7 days about 4,000 years ago.

A day is the measure of how long it takes the earth to rotate once. A year is the measure of how long it takes the earth to revolve around the sun once. How is it then that "creation" is measured in terms of the movements of something that was created during the creation - regardless of how you believe that creation took place?

Fossils provide the only direct evidence of the history of evolution. Fossil formation occurs when sediment covers some material or fills an impression. Very gradually, heat and pressure harden the sediment and surrounding minerals replace it, creating fossils.

Not sure where you got that information from, but it's got some serious problems.
Firstly, fossils, in order to form from soft tissue, needs to be buried rapidly and subjected to high pressure and have the right minerals immeadiately nearby. There is not much 'gradual' about it, or the soft material will rot. Dead fish don't sink. Maybe this 'textbook' info needs a bit of a review. Currently, it wouldn't convince a primary school student.

No, it doesn't contradict the bible - nor does the big bang theory. These things compliment the bible, providing some insight into the "how" of creation.

Unless, of course, you believe in a completely literal interpretation of Genesis - that the entire universe was created in 7 days, approximatley 4,000 years ago. In which case, everything contradicts the bible as you see it. And, if that's the case, there is no point in any further discussion between you and me - because you can't see my viewpoint, and I can't see yours. I've heard all the discussion/arguments for the 7 day/4,000 year stuff, and find them spurious.

I do have one question for those who believe creation took place in 7 days about 4,000 years ago.

A day is the measure of how long it takes the earth to rotate once. A year is the measure of how long it takes the earth to revolve around the sun once. How is it then that "creation" is measured in terms of the movements of something that was created during the creation - regardless of how you believe that creation took place?

That's probably not a really difficult question. The writer, presumeably Moses, was trying to give an impression of the time frame of creation, as he understood it. He was not necessarily writing as a eye witness, although it is possible that God showed him in a vision. So the words, evening and morning, refer to the length of time, and not necessarily dependent on the sunlight/shadows creeping along the hilltops. Of course Moses was an intelligent fellow, and hardly likely to make such a blundering error.

Not sure where you got that information from, but it's got some serious problems.
Firstly, fossils, in order to form from soft tissue, needs to be buried rapidly and subjected to high pressure and have the right minerals immeadiately nearby. There is not much 'gradual' about it, or the soft material will rot. Dead fish don't sink. Maybe this 'textbook' info needs a bit of a review. Currently, it wouldn't convince a primary school student.

Dude, that's talking about HARD TISSUE fossils, the most common type. Bones and shells and such take many years to decompose, so gradual hardening is perfectly possible.

Absolute garbage/rubbish/twaddle.

Dude, that's talking about HARD TISSUE fossils, the most common type. Bones and shells and such take many years to decompose, so gradual hardening is perfectly possible.

OK, so perhaps it is ok for hard tissue fossils, but we really need better explanations for the huge number of soft tissue fossils, you know.

Those are formed by the process you describe. Most are found in:
1. Freezing areas (Preserved by ice)
2. Deserts (Preserved by heat)
3. Near volcanos (Preserved by lava)

Species that bear little resemblance to each other in their adult forms may have strikingly similar embryonic stages. In some ways, it is almost as if the embryo passes through many evolutionary stages to produce the mature organism. For example, for a large portion of its development, the human embryo possesses a tail, much like those of our close primate relatives. This tail is usually reabsorbed before birth, but occasionally children are born with the ancestral structure intact. Even though they are not generally present in the adult organism, tails could be considered homologous traits between humans and primates.

This information seems rather old. Already decades ago, the first fellow who put forward this theory as some sort of proof of evolution was found to be a fraud. Unfortunately, it went straight into the biology textbooks, and I've even seen some of the recent (obviously not so good ones) text books still include it as some sort of evidence for evolution. I think there are better arguments than this one. It should definitely not be included.
Embryos do not go through animal like stages. That is a dream of some out-dated flawed research.

Why is it that when this sort of stuff gets written on paper, people are so quick to believe it? Particularly when it gets shown to be wrong afterwards. And why are they so slow to believe what has been written for thousands of years (i.e. the Bible), particularly when it has never been shown to be wrong, or at least convincingly wrong, although that is rather a point of much debate.

To me, this smacks of bias, something humans are really good at. In their desire to see things in a certain light or explanation, they are rather too quick to disregard the opposing explanations.

Here's a thought for all that are in doubt...
If you decide to believe in God and He really does not exist , what do you lose ... nothing
BUT
If you decide not to believe in God and He is , what do you lose ?
... eternal Life

Kind of a big risk to take isn't it?

Why not give it a shot? Find out why through the midst of the trials and rough times in life , I can enjoy personal peace and happiness. Believe me , I know I am well taken care of....

Those are formed by the process you describe. Most are found in:
1. Freezing areas (Preserved by ice)
2. Deserts (Preserved by heat)
3. Near volcanos (Preserved by lava)

Hmmm....no, you definitely don't get fossils from freezing. The forest found under the galaciers are not fossils--just frozen wood.
Deserts do have a way of preserving, but that is because of the extreme dry conditions. This doesn't produce fossils, but preserves the original material.
Volcanoes might produce fossils, but that is more to do with rapid burial by earth with the right minerals, and less to do with heat.
In fact, the best way to make soft tissue fossils, as I understand it, is to use a great lot of water, moving very fast, carrying great loads of mud, to bury the poor barely dead e.g. fish deep under a great mountain, causing high levels of pressure and supplying the right minerals.
Then again, I'm no paleontologist. Perhaps I have it wrong.

OK, so perhaps it is ok for hard tissue fossils, but we really need better explanations for the huge number of soft tissue fossils, you know.
Huge numbers? The first ever was found this year, announced on March 28, 2005.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683

EDIT: Oh wait, that's only dinosaur.

Here's a thought for all that are in doubt...
If you decide to believe in God and He really does not exist , what do you lose ... nothing
BUT
If you decide not to believe in God and He is , what do you lose ?
... eternal Life

Kind of a big risk to take isn't it?

Why not give it a shot? Find out why through the midst of the trials and rough times in life , I can enjoy personal peace and happiness. Believe me , I know I am well taken care of....

Ah, Pascal's Wager, is it?
http://www.jhuger.com/pascal.php
You lose.

Hmmm....no, you definitely don't get fossils from freezing. The forest found under the galaciers are not fossils--just frozen wood.
Deserts do have a way of preserving, but that is because of the extreme dry conditions. This doesn't produce fossils, but preserves the original material.
Volcanoes might produce fossils, but that is more to do with rapid burial by earth with the right minerals, and less to do with heat.
In fact, the best way to make soft tissue fossils, as I understand it, is to use a great lot of water, moving very fast, carrying great loads of mud, to bury the poor barely dead e.g. fish deep under a great mountain, causing high levels of pressure and supplying the right minerals.
Then again, I'm no paleontologist. Perhaps I have it wrong.

Oh, wait, I did forget mudslides, including the underwater type.

And yes, you get something similar to a fossil. Maybe not quite the same, but close... like that mastodon they found under the ice.

Oh wait, that isn't a fossil, tech'cly. My bad.

I stand by the volcano one, though. Disregard the other 2. Those are mummies.

Yes, scary to see the results tho

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

Amen

Here's a thought for all that are in doubt...
If you decide to believe in God and He really does not exist , what do you lose ... nothing
BUT
If you decide not to believe in God and He is , what do you lose ?
... eternal Life

Kind of a big risk to take isn't it

\

Not sure it works that way :)

Pontius Pilot

*Snigger*

Here's a thought for all that are in doubt...
If you decide to believe in God and He really does not exist , what do you lose ... nothing
BUT
If you decide not to believe in God and He is , what do you lose ?
... eternal Life

Kind of a big risk to take isn't it

\

Not sure it works that way :)
Great bringing up pascal's wager … to bad its been disproved

(sorry did not mean to quote you ... but the origional)

That's probably not a really difficult question. The writer, presumeably Moses, was trying to give an impression of the time frame of creation, as he understood it. He was not necessarily writing as a eye witness, although it is possible that God showed him in a vision. So the words, evening and morning, refer to the length of time, and not necessarily dependent on the sunlight/shadows creeping along the hilltops. Of course Moses was an intelligent fellow, and hardly likely to make such a blundering error.Okay - then, isn't it just as possible that the writer (we'll still presume it to be Moses) was trying to give the impression that creation took place sequentially, over a period of time, and choose to use a time period familiar to his (her?) audience (first day, second day, etc) to allude to a passage of time unfathomable to them (first trillion years, second trillion years, etc)?

Fossils provide the only direct evidence of the history of evolution. Fossil formation occurs when sediment covers some material or fills an impression. Very gradually, heat and pressure harden the sediment and surrounding minerals replace it, creating fossils.

Not sure where you got that information from, but it's got some serious problems.
Firstly, fossils, in order to form from soft tissue, needs to be buried rapidly and subjected to high pressure and have the right minerals immeadiately nearby. There is not much 'gradual' about it, or the soft material will rot. Dead fish don't sink. Maybe this 'textbook' info needs a bit of a review. Currently, it wouldn't convince a primary school student.

So, what your saying is: fossils only form when the situation is favourable.

What? That's a radical new concept...

Why, if that were true, there would be a few hundreds of fossils of most creatures that must have numbered into the hundreds of millions...

Oh, wait... yeah, we see that, don't we...

But... but... if fossilisation only occurs in favourable circumstances... well, things like ammonites that were IN those favourable conditions should have provided a disproportionately huge number of fossils!

Oh, wait... yeah, we see that too, don't we...

Okay - then, isn't it just as possible that the writer (we'll still presume it to be Moses) was trying to give the impression that creation took place sequentially, over a period of time, and choose to use a time period familiar to his (her?) audience (first day, second day, etc) to allude to a passage of time unfathomable to them (first trillion years, second trillion years, etc)?

I think we have to assume Moses didn't write the Pentatauch...

After all, the last book of the 'Mosaic' texts describes his own funeral.... quite an achievement, when you think about it...

I think we have to assume Moses didn't write the Pentatauch...

After all, the last book of the 'Mosaic' texts describes his own funeral.... quite an achievement, when you think about it...
Lol that would put a damper on things