NationStates Jolt Archive

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

No.

Not in the slightest. Christianity is riddled with corruption and lack of proof for any of their beliefs.

I'm pretty much an atheist ("pretty much" meaning that I'm open to the possibility that there is a higher power, but I highly doubt there is one).
I guess you could call me agnostic, but whatever.


I find it really funny when people say "I KNOW there is a God."
I'm always tempted to answer: "No, you don't KNOW, you only THINK there is a God."
It's impossible to *know* whether or not there is a God, because it is not provable by concrete evidence.

Not in the slightest. Christianity is riddled with corruption and lack of proof for any of their beliefs.

That pretty much describes religion in general.

Is the footnote in the original?

Heh, it's exactly tied.

I'm a christian in that I live by the teachings of the one called christ (but by the same token, I could also be called a buddhist). But no, I'm not what you would call a christian.

no. the foot note is not in the original.

You didn't even leave an option for the Christian agnostics. :rolleyes:

No, I'm a Christian myself..well i go to church because of my parents. I'm also open the there being a higher power just not "Highest" because if you look at it humans are a higher power then well lets say a dog, dogs are a higher power than an ant, so on and so forth. Also a nice little paradox here
"If God is almighty then can he create a stone even he can't lift, if so then he is not almighty"
From the M&W.com site

Main Entry: 1al·mighty
Pronunciation: ol-'mI-tE
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English ealmihtig, from eall all + mihtig mighty
1 often capitalized : having absolute power over all <Almighty God>
2 : relatively unlimited in power
3 : great in magnitude or seriousness

Also for those who don't know the meaning of paradox

Main Entry: par·a·dox
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"däks
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin paradoxum, from Greek paradoxon, from neuter of paradoxos contrary to expectation, from para- + dokein to think, seem -- more at DECENT
1 : a tenet contrary to received opinion
2 a : a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true b : a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true c : an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises
3 : one that possesses seemingly contradictory qualities or phases

No. Once the Beatles were bigger than Jesus, it was hopless.

Baptized Catholic. Grew up saying The Lord's Prayer before I went to bed, and staying up for a good hour meditating on an all powerful God that would wait for children to die in their sleep and swoop in and rescue just the souls at the last minute. Embraced Athieism as a reaction to the crushing ignroance of the evangelicals surrounding me in middle school. Eventually, I grew to understand that the only truly wholly rational choice is agnosticism, but to also admit, emotionally, I'm a hard core atheist, and I appreciate the beauty intrinsic in the story of how we got there.

So no.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He decended into hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead. He accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God, from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and the Life everlasting. Amen.

And Amen. World without End.

Maharlikana

no. the foot note is not in the original.

I only ask because I can forsee a whole bunch of non-Catholic Christians getting very upset over that. I mean, it made /me/ twitch, and I'm only a mildly apathetic Christian.

God bless.

I'm a christian in that I live by the teachings of the one called christ (but by the same token, I could also be called a buddhist). But no, I'm not what you would call a christian.

Buddhism is one of they few religions that I have a lot of respect for.
I like the fact that it has an actual path to "enlightenment/nirvana", rather than simply a list of rules that you must follow.

I also usually form part of my judgement of a religion on its members, and Buddhist people are always wonderful and accepting.

Yep.

EDIT: 400th post.

Devout Christian who embraces just about every denomination within. I have alot of Catholic/Orthodox beliefs but attend a protestant.
And I recognize the Pope as head of the church so I don't know where that puts me lol.
I just love the Lord.

Yes I am a Christian.

But I do object to your footnote about 'the one holy catholic and apostolic church.'

It refers to the One True and undivided Church as it has been handed down from the Apostles, which as we all know is the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Only the Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches the true faith as it was layed out in the first seven ecumenical councils and since there has not been a truly ecumenical council since then. Only the Eastern Orthodox Church as the right to be the one holy catholic and apostolic church refered to in the creed. This line in the Creed simply does not refer to all Christians as some would have you believe, it refers to the True Church. As this line was first being written, the Arian heretics condemned by that very same council at Nicea were claiming to be Christians and by your definition part of the OHCAC. However, the clear intent of the Nicene creed is to repudiate their claim to the Truth and exclude them from the OHCAC. So historically speaking your claim about the meaning of the line in the creed about th OHCAC simply does not stand up. It refers to the One True Christian Church, which I fervently hope one day all those who call themselves Christians will be apart. However, it simply isn't the case that all self-proclaimed Christians are apart of the OHCAC and I'm certain you could find many a Evangelical Protestant who not only thinks they are not, thinks it doesn't matter that they aren't.

Yes I am a Christian.

But I do object to your footnote about 'the one holy catholic and apostolic church.'

It refers to the One True and undivided Church as it has been handed down from the Apostles, which as we all know is the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Only the Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches the true faith as it was layed out in the first seven ecumenical councils and since there has not been a truly ecumenical council since then. Only the Eastern Orthodox Church as the right to be the one holy catholic and apostolic church refered to in the creed. This line in the Creed simply does not refer to all Christians as some would have you believe, it refers to the True Church. As this line was first being written, the Arian heretics condemned by that very same council at Nicea were claiming to be Christians and by your definition part of the OHCAC. However, the clear intent of the Nicene creed is to repudiate their claim to the Truth and exclude them from the OHCAC. So historically speaking your claim about the meaning of the line in the creed about th OHCAC simply does not stand up. It refers to the One True Christian Church, which I fervently hope one day all those who call themselves Christians will be apart. However, it simply isn't the case that all self-proclaimed Christians are apart of the OHCAC and I'm certain you could find many a Evangelical Protestant who not only thinks they are not, thinks it doesn't matter that they aren't.

holy catholic = the church universal, not specifically the Roman Catholic Church. The body of believers around the world who have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Maharlikana

I will take this a step at a time...

Reticuli
"Christianity is riddled with corruption and lack of proof for any of their beliefs."
First, faith is required in all religions.
Second, there is plenty of evidence that the people, places, and events occurred as detailed throughout the Bible. There is also plenty of evidence that the Bible has not changed in any appreciable way since it's first writing (and in that regard, that it was accurate when it was written).

000 Blues
"If God is almighty then can he create a stone even he can't lift, if so then he is not almighty."
The statement itself is a logical fallacy...making any assumptions of God's power irrelevant (not just false). There are assumptions that are not met by the very structure of the statement. Take a course in logic.

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

It IS a pretty story, although I prefer the Norse version, myself... with Odin hanging himself from a tree as a sacrifice to himself...

Unfortunately, there is no evidence that it is anything more than a pretty story...

So, I'll leave this pretty story with all the pretty stories I also like about aliens, fairies, ghosts, goblins and monsters....

Buddhism is one of they few religions that I have a lot of respect for.
I like the fact that it has an actual path to "enlightenment/nirvana", rather than simply a list of rules that you must follow.

I also usually form part of my judgement of a religion on its members, and Buddhist people are always wonderful and accepting.
If you take a close look at the underlying principles of Buddhism (and Hinduism as well) and compare them to the teachings of Jesus--not the religion that sprouted out of that and was turned into the monstrosity it is today by first, Paul, and later, every idiot who couldn't tell the difference between metaphor and factual statement--but the teachings of Jesus, you find a host of similarities. They're almost identical at the most basic level.

Except for the descended into hell part - which was added well after the creed was adopted in most churches. It also doesn't make much sense. Hell is the complete absence of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God. How exactly can God descend into the complete absence of God?

Hrm, yup. Definitely Christian. I'm an Irish Catholic to the end, which really just means Catholicism infused with some national pride, then passed down the generations now that we're in America.....I've been skimming the thread (sorry, didn't really read anything at all in-depth, and didn't read most of the second page), so I wasn't sure if anybody else pointed this out, but.....if you're dead-set on quoting the Apostles' Creed, can you spell Catholic correctly? I think it was down as "Cathlic" in the first post.

Second, thanks for everybody who's got the sense to capitalize Catholic when you mean Roman Catholic, it's a help. It rips me up when I see "catholic" and it pertains to the Catholic Church, or when I see "Catholic" meaning "of or related to the universal Christian church", in which case should just be "catholic".

And wow, lots of disbelievers on here (non-believers makes it seem like an exclusive club.....I hate that term)

Except for the descended into hell part - which was added well after the creed was adopted in most churches. It also doesn't make much sense. Hell is the complete absence of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God. How exactly can God descend into the complete absence of God?
Jesus wasn't deified until the 5th or 6th Century, after that part was already in the Chruch's teachings.....they decided it was best not to reverse it.

I will take this a step at a time...


First, faith is required in all religions.
Second, there is plenty of evidence that the people, places, and events occurred as detailed throughout the Bible. There is also plenty of evidence that the Bible has not changed in any appreciable way since it's first writing (and in that regard, that it was accurate when it was written).


The statement itself is a logical fallacy...making any assumptions of God's power irrelevant (not just false). There are assumptions that are not met by the very structure of the statement. Take a course in logic.Notice they completely ignored you cause they got no defence.

If you take a close look at the underlying principles of Buddhism (and Hinduism as well) and compare them to the teachings of Jesus--not the religion that sprouted out of that and was turned into the monstrosity it is today by first, Paul, and later, every idiot who couldn't tell the difference between metaphor and factual statement--but the teachings of Jesus, you find a host of similarities. They're almost identical at the most basic level.

My problem with Christianity is, as you said, that it has generally turned into a "monstrocity."

So many Christians like to point the finger at people they think aren't living the holy life, and conveniently forget Jesus' phrase: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended[b] to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he [b]accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

I believe in proper spelling and grammar. ;)

*hides*

And no, I don't believe the Apostles' Creed. So I'm not a Christian, but I knew that part already.

I will take this a step at a time...


First, faith is required in all religions.
Second, there is plenty of evidence that the people, places, and events occurred as detailed throughout the Bible. There is also plenty of evidence that the Bible has not changed in any appreciable way since it's first writing (and in that regard, that it was accurate when it was written).

Yes, faith is necessary, but blind faith is stupid. People who do not ask for evidence or question their beliefs are fools. And using the Bible as proof of your faith leads to the annoying circular argument "The Bible is true because it is the word of God. It is the word of God because it says so in the Bible..." Idiots.

The statement itself is a logical fallacy...making any assumptions of God's power irrelevant (not just false). There are assumptions that are not met by the very structure of the statement. Take a course in logic.

I agree with you on this point, however. It is basically asking "can God do something that God cannot do?" Remember my attitude towards the Circular Argument? I have a similar loathing for the Rock Question.

Simonist']
And wow, lots of disbelievers on here (non-believers makes it seem like an exclusive club.....I hate that term)
"Disbelievers" makes it sound like the Christians are right. Non-believers is more accurate. "Disbelievers" implies that there is some true premise to disbelieve.

The statement itself is a logical fallacy...making any assumptions of God's power irrelevant (not just false). There are assumptions that are not met by the very structure of the statement. Take a course in logic.
Your a devoute Christian aren't you. Well since you want logic I have some for you. If we are created by God, to worship and to serve God, then why are we given free will, why are we as complex as we are. If it was a simple as God thinking one day "I should make humans" we would be less complex. We the human race would not be diverce. We would all be the same and have the same beilef that there is One True God. Face it if you look back the first Relgions were Polytheistic not Mono. But hey that is my view on the world. You have yours i have mine and they might conflict.

World without End.
So you basically just threw away the entire book of Revelations.

Well, I'm Jewish, so I guess the answer to the thread question would be... no?

...there is plenty of evidence that the people, places, and events occurred as detailed throughout the Bible. There is also plenty of evidence that the Bible has not changed in any appreciable way since it's first writing (and in that regard, that it was accurate when it was written).

I don't doubt the fact that most Biblical figures did exist, but I take issue when people say that "events occurred as detailed throughout the Bible", especially when many major Biblical events either did not happen, were exaggerated, or were merely metaphors for some other meaning.

I'm going to go with Swol on this one, I think...

I am a Christian. Fundamentalist, actually.

Judging a religion by the people who follow it is
1. rude.
2. judgemental.
3. ignorant.

Rude, because you're automatically assuming I don't know what I'm talking about spiritually because I wear a cross 'round my neck and read (and believe, and try to live according to) the Bible.
Judgemental, because again you're passing judgement on me and others who share my faith without knowing all of us.
Ignorant, because judging a religion by its followers just doesn't make sense. It's like judging a car by the person selling it. Just because the person is a jerk doesn't change the car; in the same sense, just because some people screw up and call themselves Christians doesn't change Christ's teachings.

Aaronople, don't you think it's more important to follow the teachings of Christ than it is to follow the ecumenical councils? As long as you accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour, love your neighbor as yourself, and love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength, the rest seems kinda irrelevant to me.

God bless and agape,
Elizabeth

Simonist']Jesus wasn't deified until the 5th or 6th Century, after that part was already in the Chruch's teachings.....they decided it was best not to reverse it.

I've actually seen arguments about the NATURE of hell... that what we commonly refer to as 'hell' is actually but part of a greater realm... which is the realm (entire) that Jesus was 'descending to', in order to pass through and save souls, I believe.

In this version of the story, the 'hell' plane is a very real (is real the right word, I wonder) plane, and Jesus' descent a very real descent...

The 'hellish' part of the 'hell' section, one assumes, is being deprived of the presence of 'god' (along, in popular teaching, with loads of nice S+M fun)... and Jesus' visit was but a blink of hope in an eternity of desolation.

Or some other, equally cheery, argument.

If being a Christian means having to follow every last word of the Nicene Creed to the letter, then no, I am not a Christian. Nevertheless, I don't believe you have to follow the Nicene Creed to the letter, you only have to do what Christ said: believe in God with all your heart, and treat all people as if they were your neighbor. In that sense, I do not know that anybody is truly Christian, but I certainly try to be a Christian, and I definately think that others try as well.

OK, for all of you guys who demand proof:
Prove that you physically exist.
Exactly. You have to take some things on faith.

I take the whole Bible on faith because I know some parts of it are true. If some parts are true and some aren't, who's to decided which falls within which category? I'm going to beleive all of it until someone can convince me to do otherwise, which would probably take some magnificent convincing.

Did you know that people who have faith are happier and live longer?

Jesus was also human, and He accepted all of our sin with His death on the cross and, thus, went to Hell. However, He fought Satan and defeated Him and rose after the three days. He hung out on Earth for a while and then ascended into Heaven with His (and Our) Father.

If you do some research, you'll find that some of the pretty wild things in the Bible have been validated. Like the part about the world going dark when Jesus died? A contemporary Roman historian corroborated it in his writings. He would have all the reason in the world to dispute Jesus' Godly nature, but he was faithful to the truth.

Jesus was deified in manuscripts dated within a century of His death, copied from manuscripts written within thirty years of said death.

Agape,
Elizabeth

Here's a little something maybe some of you didn't know..."catholic" means universal. Doh.

As for myself, Absolutely. I believe in Christ's sinless life and resurrection, and that his life, death, and resurrection paid for the debt which I could not pay, that being my sinful state which separated me from my Maker.

I believe that Jesus Christ gave me the gift of salvation on the cross, and that through his suffering and victory over death, I am freed from my sin and will go to be with my God and Maker when I die.

I love the Lord, and I believe in the teachings of Jesus and the triumph of grace over the law. I believe the law was set up to show that we were uncapable of following it, to show our need for a perfect Savior to take the punishment upon Himself. I believe that Christ, the only man who ever lived a perfect life, paid for this penalty. And because he was fully man AND fully God, he arose from death, making the sacrifice complete.

I believe in the body of Christ, the church, being followers of Christ, who believe in His gift of grace and His deity, His place in the Trinity. I believe in the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I believe the Spirit is what guides, convicts, and impacts our lives as we as a body struggle against the flesh to live a life according to the following we have been called to, and as we spread the good news of God's gift of grace to those who have not heard or received it.

I believe in the mortality of this life and this world, and in the new heaven, earth and life that is to come. I believe in the judgement of the unreceiving or unbelieving the final days, and of the gift of eternal salvation to His children, those that have received his name.

No

Simonist']Hrm, yup. Definitely Christian. I'm an Irish Catholic to the end, which really just means Catholicism infused with some national pride, then passed down the generations now that we're in America.....I've been skimming the thread (sorry, didn't really read anything at all in-depth, and didn't read most of the second page), so I wasn't sure if anybody else pointed this out, but.....if you're dead-set on quoting the Apostles' Creed, can you spell Catholic correctly? I think it was down as "Cathlic" in the first post.

Second, thanks for everybody who's got the sense to capitalize Catholic when you mean Roman Catholic, it's a help. It rips me up when I see "catholic" and it pertains to the Catholic Church, or when I see "Catholic" meaning "of or related to the universal Christian church", in which case should just be "catholic".

And wow, lots of disbelievers on here (non-believers makes it seem like an exclusive club.....I hate that term)

Cuimnidh ar Luimneach agus ar Feall na Sasanach!

Best regards ;)
Maharlikana

OK, for all of you guys who demand proof:
Prove that you physically exist.
Exactly. You have to take some things on faith.

Did you know that people who have faith are happier and live longer?

If you do some research, you'll find that some of the pretty wild things in the Bible have been validated. Like the part about the world going dark when Jesus died? A contemporary Roman historian corroborated it in his writings. He would have all the reason in the world to dispute Jesus' Godly nature, but he was faithful to the truth.

Alright not to be an ass but here it goes. I'll go step by step here starting with proving I exist on a 3D plain. Lets see i'm typing on a keyboard, I am breathing a mixture of gases to stay alive.
Second happier and live longer. The happier i will not totally dispute its nice to think that you will live on forever but the longer its called a good diet and exercise.
Third Validated. Validated by whom the Vatican the Vatican would will validate what ever they think will get the numbers up.
Now i want you to remeber when you read my post on this type of topic I have been going to church since i was born. I have made my own decisions on what I get out of the Mass and also i keep in mind what I disregrad.

He gave us free will when He made us because how great would it be to have a whole bunch of people love You because they had to? Whoohoo.

So we can choose to love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, or we can turn our backs on Him... He's Awesome enough to deserve our love of our own choosing.

Not that He couldn't force us, I believe He just doesn't. On the other hand, if you've ever been truly touched by God, I don't know how you can resist. He rocks my whole existence so much, and at the same time gives me a sturdy place to fall on when crap catches me off guard. Not only that, but come on... Heaven or Hell (or annihilation, which is the same thing in comparison)??

Christians so got the better deal.

Agape,
Elizabeth

Your a devoute Christian aren't you. Well since you want logic I have some for you. If we are created by God, to worship and to serve God, then why are we given free will, why are we as complex as we are. If it was a simple as God thinking one day "I should make humans" we would be less complex. We the human race would not be diverce. We would all be the same and have the same beilef that there is One True God. Face it if you look back the first Relgions were Polytheistic not Mono. But hey that is my view on the world. You have yours i have mine and they might conflict.

Because that's the only way love can exist when there's a choice. You choose to love someone or you can reject that person. It doesn't mean everything if you make a robot who is programmed to love you.

Maharlikana

Cuimnidh ar Luimneach agus ar Feall na Sasanach!

Esta bien, porque podemos entiendar alamania!!! Hable en ingles, por favor. No me gustan persones que hablen en idiomas otras. :)

Just kidding.

Well, I'm Jewish, so I guess the answer to the thread question would be... no?

Judaism and Christianity are not necessarily mutually exclusive. However, some interpretations of Judaism may be incompatible with some interpretations of Christianity.

I've actually seen arguments about the NATURE of hell... that what we commonly refer to as 'hell' is actually but part of a greater realm... which is the realm (entire) that Jesus was 'descending to', in order to pass through and save souls, I believe.

In this version of the story, the 'hell' plane is a very real (is real the right word, I wonder) plane, and Jesus' descent a very real descent...

The 'hellish' part of the 'hell' section, one assumes, is being deprived of the presence of 'god' (along, in popular teaching, with loads of nice S+M fun)... and Jesus' visit was but a blink of hope in an eternity of desolation.

Or some other, equally cheery, argument.

Hell is separation from God (Abandon all hope ye who enter here) - when Christ took on the sins of mankind he was separated for all our sakes - hence the line "My God, my God why have you forsaken me."

Maharlikana

Esta bien, porque podemos entiendar alamania!!! Hable en ingles, por favor. No me gustan persones que hablen en idiomas otras. :)

Just kidding.

No prob, actually, it's the motto of the Irish Brigade "Remember Limerick and the Saxon Faith" - talking about the betrayal of General Patrick Sarsfield by the Dutch-English at Limerick. A note of greeting to our Irish Catholic friend up there.

Maharlikana

Second, there is plenty of evidence that the people, places, and events occurred as detailed throughout the Bible. There is also plenty of evidence that the Bible has not changed in any appreciable way since it's first writing (and in that regard, that it was accurate when it was written).

Take a course in logic.

Well to put it simply, that's just wrong. Lots of evidence? Are you serious? While I will agree (partially) that Some of the figures mentioned in the Bible may actually have existed, that's no basis for a religion. Hasn't been changed since it's first writing? There have been HUNDREDS of translations, revisions, and alterations since it's original writing, not the least of which is the original translation from Aramaic. Have you ever played the game "telephone?" You cannot possibly begin to explain to me with any significatly convincing argument that the original text of the Bible has not been altered since it's original writing. As for being accurate when it was written... It may well have been perfectly accurate when it was written. However, considering the fact that it was written hundreds of years after the death of "your lord" by people who never even knew him... to what it is being accurate is questionable. And I would just like to point out that for one so concerned with the proper use of logic, you seem to have an overwhelming amount of confidence in a religion founded, preached, and followed with no regard for logic whatsoever.
(granted there are some exceptions to the statement of followers with no logic)

No, I'm a Christian myself..well i go to church because of my parents. I'm also open the there being a higher power just not "Highest" because if you look at it humans are a higher power then well lets say a dog, dogs are a higher power than an ant, so on and so forth. Also a nice little paradox here
"If God is almighty then can he create a stone even he can't lift, if so then he is not almighty"


I think there are some things that God cannot do. For example, I don't think that He can change His character. He has told us that He is a faithful, loving God, so I think He is unable to become unfaithful or unloving. If He makes a stone and promises that He will not be able to lift that stone, then I think He is indeed unable to lift that stone.

I'm an Atheist and haven't gone to church for years although both my parents are Christians.

Judaism and Christianity are not necessarily mutually exclusive. However, some interpretations of Judaism may be incompatible with some interpretations of Christianity.

The Jews are, according to the Bible, the Chosen People and Christ himself was a Jew. If anything, I think Christians are richer when they can understand more of Christ's Jewishness. It helps contextualize things.

Peace,
Maharlikana

I am a Christian by actions and belief, not words. Though I have openly confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord.

The Bible is about the only logical and scientific book in the world at the moment that wasn't screwed up by human emotions. The Bible is more than a Book of Faith to me, its a Science book in and of itself and explains mainly things Natural Science (science we learn today) cannot. And is even more harder to understand that a Science book, making the reader continously challange the book to find flaws, but those flaws are never found.

No. Partly because I wouldn't have anything to do with a religion that is, according to it's own doctrine, headed by an asshole with multiple personalities.

I'm Jewish.

Anything after New in the New Testament I don't believe in...

I believe in God...

I've prayed for 15 years and little has happened. Good health? Grandma died, Mom had heart attack, Dad died...prayed for good health and I get this.

Well to put it simply, that's just wrong. Lots of evidence? Are you serious? While I will agree (partially) that Some of the figures mentioned in the Bible may actually have existed, that's no basis for a religion. Hasn't been changed since it's first writing? There have been HUNDREDS of translations, revisions, and alterations since it's original writing, not the least of which is the original translation from Aramaic. Have you ever played the game "telephone?" You cannot possibly begin to explain to me with any significatly convincing argument that the original text of the Bible has not been altered since it's original writing. As for being accurate when it was written... It may well have been perfectly accurate when it was written. However, considering the fact that it was written hundreds of years after the death of "your lord" by people who never even knew him... to what it is being accurate is questionable. And I would just like to point out that for one so concerned with the proper use of logic, you seem to have an overwhelming amount of confidence in a religion founded, preached, and followed with no regard for logic whatsoever.
(granted there are some exceptions to the statement of followers with no logic)

If you throw out the Bible you might as well throw out Herodotus, Julius Caesar's Commentaries, the Iliad and Odyssey and virtually all ancient texts whose editions are not only incomplete but written centuries after the originals.

Read EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT for more proofs.

Maharlikana

Why do catholics consider Pilate to be at fault? Doesnt make sense to me

Validated by whom the Vatican the Vatican would will validate what ever they think will get the numbers up.

I'm not Catholic. I'm not really any denomination, though I go to a United Methodist church. If anything, I'm thoroughly Protestant.

Note the sentence after that. Validated by a guy who, by all reason, shouldn't have validated it.

Also, have you ever noticed how every other major religion recognizes Jesus Christ as at least a major person? According to Judaism and Islam, He's a prophet, according to Hinduism, He's one of the various gods that can be worshipped in one's search for Nirvana, and according to Buddhism He's a reincarnation of Buddha.

I'll go step by step here starting with proving I exist on a 3D plain. Lets see i'm typing on a keyboard, I am breathing a mixture of gases to stay alive.

That, or a scientist with a bunch of probes is making a brain in a vat think that. You're using circular loginc again - you're saying I exist because I exist and I'm alive. Dead people exist, too, if living ones do.

Semi-related note:

Buddhism doesn't actually provide a path to nirvana. You're supposed to repay a debt of karma to whom? How, exactly, do you repay it? How much does it take? How much good karma does giving $5 to a poor guy get you... or, wait, is it repaying bad? How did this specific soul's reincarnation start, considering the total absence of a higher power to create it? And why do so many Buddhists worship Buddha, when he never claimed to be God? Actually, he only taught a spcific kind of Hinduism. He said that there really was no God, since everyone and everything was the same, thus God really is one of us, thus He's not any higher or more powerful.

Why do catholics consider Pilate to be at fault? Doesnt make sense to me

He wasn't, really. He's more of a scapegoat... it's easier to blame Pilate that to blame ourselves.

Agape,
Elizabeth

No, not by a long shot. I'm more what you would call "spiritual" than religous. I was raised Catholic, but as I grew older I decided to do some studying. After looking into all of the major religions and quite a few of the more obscure ones, I realized that no religon is any better than the others in the sense that all are created by man, and therefore are subject to the failings of man. Besides, I think if there IS a god, he's more worried about what I do with my life and how I treat my fellow man, than he is with whether I believe in him or not.

If you throw out the Bible you might as well throw out Herodotus, Julius Caesar's Commentaries, the Iliad and Odyssey and virtually all ancient texts whose editions are not only incomplete but written centuries after the originals.

Read EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT for more proofs.

MaharlikanaExcept we don't take the Iliad and Odyssey as absolute fact. Nor the Veddas and Norse sagas.

I believe in God yes. More specifically I believe in the Juedo-Christian God exclusively and the divine inspiration of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. Including the believe that that Judeo-Christian God is the One True God and the only way to salvation. Yes I am a member of an organized Christian church the Lutheran Church Missouri synod to be exact. I can hear the boos and calls of religious intollerance already.
That being said I also am a firm beliver in freedom of religion (despite what my nation is turning out to be). If you want to choose to worship my kitchen chair that's your business. I may not believe the same as say someoen who is a Hindu but I can see some beauty in their faith and I know that there is something I can learn from them. However I'm not going to compromise my faith to do that. It's one thing to be tollerant of someone else's beliefs (which I'd like to think I am) it's another entirely to all your beliefs to be compromised in the name of "tollerance". There is never an excuse for conversion at the point of a sword or a gun that goes for all religions. Each of us needs to tend to the Plank in our own eye before we look to the Speck in our brothers.

Look, guys, the poor man asked for a simple answer of yes or no, and there the Fundamental Athiests, yes thats right, have to go and butcher his religion. I'm a Christian and I have accepted Christ as my savior, but I'm going to have to go against his will and say Shut the Hell Up.

I consider myself a devout Roman Catholic, and I pray to the Lord Our God and to His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI that our souls will be purged of their sins and that we will rise to eternal life through Jesus Christ our savior.


(Nicene Creed):

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
[bow during the next two lines:]
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

God Save the Pope!

-a devout Christian

No, I am not Christian. I'm sort of a big muddled mix of a lot of things, and I guess the closest you could come is Wiccan, but Christianity... no. There is very little love lost between myself and that particular branch of religon. For a variety reasons that I am not inclined to go into at the moment, I find it difficult to believe in or agree with many of the points and issues brought up in Christian teachings. On a more humerous note, I think the Babel Fish Theory is the best explanation for the existance of God.

If you throw out the Bible you might as well throw out Herodotus, Julius Caesar's Commentaries, the Iliad and Odyssey and virtually all ancient texts whose editions are not only incomplete but written centuries after the originals.

Maharlikana

I'm not at all stating that they should be "thrown out" (yet another common mistake made by Christians "If you argue me on one point your totally against everything my religion stands for") I'm simply saying that the Bible should be treated exactly like Herodotus, Julius Caesar's Commentaries, the Iliad, and the Odyssey, as works of literature to be studied for their value therin. You don't see people worshiping, in some cases basing their entire lives off the book the "Odyssey" to me, the Bible is nothing more then book and should be treated accordingly.

No prob, actually, it's the motto of the Irish Brigade "Remember Limerick and the Saxon Faith" - talking about the betrayal of General Patrick Sarsfield by the Dutch-English at Limerick. A note of greeting to our Irish Catholic friend up there.

Maharlikana
Gah! Ggggah! I was so looking forward to beating you to that one. If only I'd not gone grocery shopping!

See what food gets you. Now I look like an ignorant arse, and avoidant at that.... :(

Flanders, each decent translation is made from the most original documents possible. Earliest one known is dated within 100 years of Christ's death. It's been more like thousands of translations. The book of Matthew contains an early version of the Nicene Creed, which was written no more than thirty years after the death of Christ. It was probably written thirty-forty years later, by a close associate of Matthew. Matthew was one of the apostles, you know, those guys who hung out with and traveled around with Jesus for about three years?

Agape,
Elizabeth

I'm a Fundamentalist Christian, but I don't take things out of hand. I believe the Bible word for word, but I also believe that there is room for some corruption and things left out or added to it. Such as the Catholic Monks translating it from the Orginal Language of Latin.

Bah! Whatever. The simple fact is that christianity actually does have some benefits such as the living longer and the reduced chance of dying and going to hell, which not everyone would like to happen. I know that I am not the best christian but most arguments for atheism simply ignore the human soul. What is life worth if you claim to have no soul. After all what is the point of sentience or even existence if life only lasts a second and after that second there is nothing but dust. I can not say that I find life to be very meaningful by itself because to be nothing, without permanence or anything distinguishing me from a complicated piece of machinery is not a life that I would want. Perhaps, I fear my mortality or perhaps even being alone in the world without guidance but I would rather believe in God than have no value in all of existance. After all the idea that I may and possibly will go to hell for my crimes is more satisfying than seeing the ending and knowing that the beginning or middle never mattered and that my actions meant nothing.
Anyway emoticons are cool :mp5: :) :)

I'm a Fundamentalist Christian, but I don't take things out of hand. I believe the Bible word for word, but I also believe that there is room for some corruption and things left out or added to it. Such as the Catholic Monks translating it from the Orginal Language of Latin.
Hey, actually at the point that it was translated from Origin to Latin, the Protestant Movement was centuries away, so you can't blame the Modern Catholic Church for ANY of that. It'd be the same corruption that everybody else based it off of at the time ;)

And why blame the monks, when there's proof that some of the NT was plagerized? I'm pretty sure it was Luke, I'll dig through my old posts and as soon as I find the link, I'll post it here.....may take a bit....bear with me!

Here's one for the Christian dates (http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm)

Here's a non-Christian source (http://www.answers.com/topic/dating-the-bible)

Here's one that gives both sides (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cs.htm)

That last one has some right nasty adds, but the other articles available on this site are very itneresting.

Yeah, I'll say this. Science tells how? Christianity tells WHY?

Tell me which one matters the most. There is such thing as a human soul, and I know mine is going to Heaven... How about yours?

Johannum, I agree with you, but I play different semantic games...
I love everyone, but I don't tolerate other religions, as in I'd rather not they continue on their merry way... If you're friends with me, the religion question will happen and I'll stick to my guns. I love everyone, though...

Even my thoroughly agnostic dad. :headbang:

Agape,
Elizabeth

I'm a Christian.

Guess what - Jesus wasn't "deified" in the 4th century; there were three ideas about him that he was human, or God, or both, and based on what he said and did, the holy people agreed that he must be both!

Agreed: don't judge a religion by its members. If you did, you'd have to assume that Muslims are evil or some other such rot.

World without end, amen. Eternity (according to theologians) exists simultaneously and yet outside of our time. That's how God has always been the Trinity from before time; that's how he knows all that was and is to come; and that's how Heaven works. It's outside us, and yet within us; we are in as well as outside of eternity. My brain hurts. No wonder so many people think we're crazy! Silly us for hearing something insane and yet knowing, deep inside, unshakingly, that it's true.

BTW, I've never been to Brazil, but I believe the Amazon is disappearing. Yikes! Can I really take the news media as proof? Written away from the source - after the source - influenced by opinions!

Simonist']Hey, actually at the point that it was translated from Origin to Latin, the Protestant Movement was centuries away, so you can't blame the Modern Catholic Church for ANY of that. It'd be the same corruption that everybody else based it off of at the time ;)

And why blame the monks, when there's proof that some of the NT was plagerized? I'm pretty sure it was Luke, I'll dig through my old posts and as soon as I find the link, I'll post it here.....may take a bit....bear with me!


Yeah, the whole world is corrupt, but I was bringing out a point. I myself, am basically sure to follow the 10 commandments which Moses carried onto Mt. Sainai in the Ark of the Covenenent.

hehe! I love military history and inasmuch as it (was last May 11th IIRC) the 260th anniversary of the Irish Brigade's finest hour and he's an Irish Catholic I don't think it was completely inappropriate ;)

Well, about the other thing, Herodotus is the father of history and Caesar is... well... the dude who gets stabbed in the forum - ANYWAYS, the point is we base belief systems on these written works, works which were copies of copies of copies and for the most part incomplete or probably even mistranslated copies.

The Old Testament scribes were required by holy writ (for want of a better term) to copy everything exactly. Make a single mistake and the entire copy would go into the fire. So what's there is pretty much what has always been.

The New Testament was written by witnesses or servants/close friends of witnesses a scant few decades after the events happened. In journalism that's called a primary or secondary source and those are the best sources of information.

They differ from myths and legends because the people here are all just people - all with regular and all too human failings. All other myths glorify or deify their heroes, make them sons of gods and goddesses. Other than the Christ, every human character in the Bible has a fatal flaw, from the lust of David to the denial of Peter to Paul's thorn in the flesh. Why not sanitize it, wouldn't that have made better press, more inspiring reading?

Because the God of the Bible says that as humans we need to rely on his grace which enough for us. When we are weak, his power shines through us and his grace and love to fallen humanity is manifested.

Maharlikana

I'm a Christian.


BTW, I've never been to Brazil, but I believe the Amazon is disappearing. Yikes! Can I really take the news media as proof? Written away from the source - after the source - influenced by opinions!

the news is reported by people whos job it is to give you accurate information. if you found some book written 2000 years ago that said "in the year 2042 the Amazon will disappear completely" and you have no scientific evidence at all to back it up, would you base your entire existence on it? i think not.

I am a Christian by actions and belief, not words. Though I have openly confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord.

The Bible is about the only logical and scientific book in the world at the moment that wasn't screwed up by human emotions. The Bible is more than a Book of Faith to me, its a Science book in and of itself and explains mainly things Natural Science (science we learn today) cannot. And is even more harder to understand that a Science book, making the reader continously challange the book to find flaws, but those flaws are never found.
Sorry, I can't just let this pass.

The bible is not a science book, no matter how you slice it--the only possible way to make it a science book is to redefine the word itself, and frankly, that's cheating. It's not a history book either, but that's another discussion.

The Bible is terrific social commentary, beautiful literature, and a glimpse at a long-dead culture in the same way that Gilgamesh, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Eddas, the Iliad and the Odyssey, and the Divine Comedy (to name just a few) are. But it is not science, and it would be unfair to ask it to be science. It is what it is, and what it is, is beautiful, but it is not science.

ok...I see too many of these threads...so I must once again spread my wisdom...

Does it matter what relegion people are?? It's not like your gonna convert the entire world because of one post. Your not the freakn messiah dude...u have no mystical powers...but ur more then welcome to try. But beware the people like me who hate u for it. Let it be. What other's relegions are none of your business! GOD! Freakn Catholics!! lol

-Kinstonya-

Yeah, the whole world is corrupt, but I was bringing out a point. I myself, am basically sure to follow the 10 commandments which Moses carried onto Mt. Sainai in the Ark of the Covenenent.

Hi...

You will? What are they? (Sinai, BTW) :D

ok...I see too many of these threads...so I must once again spread my wisdom...

Does it matter what relegion people are?? It's not like your gonna convert the entire world because of one post. Your not the freakn messiah dude...u have no mystical powers...but ur more then welcome to try. But beware the people like me who hate u for it. Let it be. What other's relegions are none of your business! GOD! Freakn Catholics!! lol

-Kinstonya-


Wooooo... Someone has... "issues!"


:rolleyes:

Wooooo... Someone has... "issues!"


:rolleyes:
DANG SKIPPY! lol...but yeah...what does it matter what relegion u are? think about it...it dosen't matter!

-Kinstonya-

Sorry.. My Biblical Grammer is not that great... I'm sure you know the Ten Commandments... But just in case...

The Commandment



1
I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other gods before me.

Faith (Trust in God)
All faith in God, freedom from lesser gods: wealth, sex, power, popularity.

2
You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain.

Respect

Holiness
Respect for God and the things of God: prayer, worship, religion.

3
Keep holy the Sabbath day.

Renewal
Not just the Sabbath rest, but setting aside time for prayer, good recreation, quiet reflection.

4
Honor your father and your mother.

Family
Loving care and respect for all family members, elders and younger siblings, too. Respect for elders in general.

5
You shall not kill.

Respect For Life
Courtesy to all, speaking respectfully to all, seeking the best for all. Respecting others' freedom while still defending all human life.

6
You shall not commit adultery.

Chastity

Faithfulness (Fidelity)
Faithful actions beyond just abstaining from sexual contact outside of marriage. Respect for sex and marriage.

7
You shall not steal.

Justice (Honesty)
Concern for the rights of others, especially when they get in the way of what we desire. A commitment to fairness and a willingness to suffer loss rather than depriving another.

8
You shall not bear false witness.

Truth
A dedication to what is real and true, even if that reality is against our interests.

9
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

Purity
A desire to want only what God wills. A single-hearted devotion to God's way.

10
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

Generosity
A cooperation in God's own generosity that sees all goods as belonging to God and freely given for the good of all.

Hey, for the record, my previous post with promised links (here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8945091#post8945091)) is edited.....didn't really have much time to throw the background of the links up, but there's some fodder for both sides to have a more EDUCATED argument over the validity of the Bible.

And as for Jesus' not being deified....most early Christians believed he was a Holy Man and a Prophet, and certainly the SON of God, but none of them likened him to God until the high-ups in the Church thought that out. I'd be interested to know where you learned your theological information to say Jesus was never directly deified, because that allegation directly contradicts the historical record of the Catholic Church.

yes, I'm Catholic, BTW catholic in holy catholic church is lower cased, when lower cased it means universal, and to remind you not to give up hope due to the ppl in here on the line of persecuting you, "Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
of course that is the last Beatitude said by Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew ch. 5 verse 10)

Sorry.. My Biblical Grammer is not that great... I'm sure you know the Ten Commandments... But just in case...

The Commandment



1
I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other gods before me.


heh...so ur saying that the bible is telling that everyone from Elizabethn times in Brittian are going to Hell? including Shakespere?? WOO! THANK YOU GOD! lol

-Kinstonya-

yes, I'm Catholic, BTW catholic in holy catholic church is lower cased, when lower cased it means universal, and to remind you not to give up hope due to the ppl in here on the line of persecuting you, "Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
of course that is the last Beatitude said by Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew ch. 5 verse 10)
can we use that excerpt from the bible to say...o...that the Crusades were...well...O.K.??

-Kinstonya-

Sorry.. My Biblical Grammer is not that great... I'm sure you know the Ten Commandments... But just in case...
[snip]

I am now reminded of why I dislike the concept of being a "good Christian".

DANG SKIPPY! lol...but yeah...what does it matter what relegion u are? think about it...it dosen't matter!

-Kinstonya-

Hehehehe... Nupe.... RELATIONSHIP, not religion.. Any idiot can have a "religion".. Jim Jones had a religion... Heaven's Gate had a religion... L. Ron Hubbard had a religion...

Yer right! ;)

That was simply the law of God and that you should not break. If you are a Christian, then you have nothing to worry about because in my opinion, I believe in Eternal Salvation through the lord Jesus Christ. If you are truly saved, you will not break any of the commandments a lot, but if you do, ask for forgiveness because we are only human, and God will forgive you, just dont make a habit of doing wrong just because you know that God will forgive you, otherwise, you were not a Christian in the first place.

Remember, Jesus was perecuted, but he still prevailed and is still saving the lives of Billions.

:) Smile, Jesus loves you.

Hehehehe... Nupe.... RELATIONSHIP, not religion.. Any idiot can have a "religion".. Jim Jones had a religion... Heaven's Gate had a religion... L. Ron Hubbard had a religion...

Yer right! ;)
so are you...

but...relationship...relegion...either way...does it f'n matter!!?? no!

-Kinstonya-

yes, I'm Catholic, BTW catholic in holy catholic church is lower cased, when lower cased it means universal, and to remind you not to give up hope due to the ppl in here on the line of persecuting you, "Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
of course that is the last Beatitude said by Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew ch. 5 verse 10)
Yeah, see, in OUR local Catholic Churches, we go ahead and capitalize it when we write Holy Catholic Church.....like Holy Mother Church or anything of the like....because it's a sign of RESPECT to capitalize Divinities. If you meant this in response to the capitalization of the word Catholic (oh, I'm sorry, Cathlic) in the first post, then maybe you're not Catholic enough to realize that's the Apostles' Creed, which is something DIRECTLY FROM the Catholic Church, ergo "Catholic" must be capitalized.

God, where would I be if I hadn't taken this course in life? Probably a lot happier......on a beach somewhere......

Sorry.. My Biblical Grammer is not that great... I'm sure you know the Ten Commandments... But just in case...

The Commandment



1
I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other gods before me.

Faith (Trust in God)
All faith in God, freedom from lesser gods: wealth, sex, power, popularity.

2
You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain.

Respect

Holiness
Respect for God and the things of God: prayer, worship, religion.

3
Keep holy the Sabbath day.

Renewal
Not just the Sabbath rest, but setting aside time for prayer, good recreation, quiet reflection.

4
Honor your father and your mother.

Family
Loving care and respect for all family members, elders and younger siblings, too. Respect for elders in general.

5
You shall not kill.

Respect For Life
Courtesy to all, speaking respectfully to all, seeking the best for all. Respecting others' freedom while still defending all human life.

6
You shall not commit adultery.

Chastity

Faithfulness (Fidelity)
Faithful actions beyond just abstaining from sexual contact outside of marriage. Respect for sex and marriage.

7
You shall not steal.

Justice (Honesty)
Concern for the rights of others, especially when they get in the way of what we desire. A commitment to fairness and a willingness to suffer loss rather than depriving another.

8
You shall not bear false witness.

Truth
A dedication to what is real and true, even if that reality is against our interests.

9
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

Purity
A desire to want only what God wills. A single-hearted devotion to God's way.

10
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

Generosity
A cooperation in God's own generosity that sees all goods as belonging to God and freely given for the good of all.


Thanks for posting those.... I could only think of about 6...

:D

can we use that excerpt from the bible to say...o...that the Crusades were...well...O.K.??

-Kinstonya-

were the Christians truly being persecuted though? not really, but Christians already view them as good

Yeah, I had to break out the Bible lol. I could only remember like 4 :)

were the Christians truly being persecuted though? not really, but Christians already view them as good
explain to me how they were good...they murdered innocent people just beause they didn't convert when they said to. Thats not being a good christian in my opinion...
5
You shall NOT kill.

-Kinstonya-

No, thats not good at all. But that was at a Different time...

so are you...

but...relationship...relegion...either way...does it f'n matter!!?? no!

-Kinstonya-

Hiya.. Well, to me it might.... To you, possibly not... "Chacon ' a sonne gout"

To each, his own! Forgive my probably very rusty Francais.. ;)

Simonist']Yeah, see, in OUR local Catholic Churches, we go ahead and capitalize it when we write Holy Catholic Church.....like Holy Mother Church or anything of the like....because it's a sign of RESPECT to capitalize Divinities. If you meant this in response to the capitalization of the word Catholic (oh, I'm sorry, Cathlic) in the first post, then maybe you're not Catholic enough to realize that's the Apostles' Creed, which is something DIRECTLY FROM the Catholic Church, ergo "Catholic" must be capitalized.

God, where would I be if I hadn't taken this course in life? Probably a lot happier......on a beach somewhere......

we aren't referring to the Catholic branch of Christianity though, it is intended to be interpreted as universal, it's quite alright to capitalize it, but proper English would argue against that.

I'm pretty much an atheist ("pretty much" meaning that I'm open to the possibility that there is a higher power, but I highly doubt there is one).
I guess you could call me agnostic, but whatever.


I find it really funny when people say "I KNOW there is a God."
I'm always tempted to answer: "No, you don't KNOW, you only THINK there is a God."
It's impossible to *know* whether or not there is a God, because it is not provable by concrete evidence.

It is also impossible to prove the existance of air, but without it, or at least we think so, we would not live.

Hiya.. Well, to me it might.... To you, possibly not... "Chacon ' a sonne gout"

To each, his own! Forgive my probably very rusty Francais.. ;)
the french smell...

express to me why it would matter. thats like expressing to a stranger, how ur relationship is with your girlfriend or wife...or boyfried or husband...u know...what ever floats your boat. but it's personal information. why inquery about it??

-Kinstonya-

Christ is the savior and no matter what you say, if you dont believe on him you will never be Christian.

we aren't referring to the Catholic branch of Christianity though, it is intended to be interpreted as universal, it's quite alright to capitalize it, but proper English would argue against that.
What "Holy catholic church" are you talking about, in a Catholic church, that's not THE Catholic church? We don't talk about Protestants.

Wait, wait....okay, now I'm seriously lost, no joking. What Diocese are you from? 'Cause I at least know you're not from mine (pretty wide spectrum to make that guess, der....) or probably any in my region, but I never knew that the separate bishoprics could possibly be THIS different.

Edit: and sorry I was snippy before, I've just had almost this exact same debate several times today....no offense to you Shorteynick

explain to me how they were good...they murdered innocent people just beause they didn't convert when they said to. Thats not being a good christian in my opinion...
5
You shall NOT kill.

-Kinstonya-

as sinical said it was a different time, people used to interpret it a lot differently, when it was originally given to Moses, they thought it just meant not to kill fellow Jews. Plus the Crusades were trying to re-capture the Holy Land, so it wasn't purely to convert people.

can we use that excerpt from the bible to say...o...that the Crusades were...well...O.K.??

-Kinstonya-

The Crusades were wrong no two ways around it and I'm glad that the late Pope John Paul II in his way apologized for things like that. Just because Christians do it or even do it in the name of God doesn't make it right nor does it mean it's sanctioned by God.

For example - anti-semitism. Many Christians felt that Jews were 'Christ-killers' and should be converted or killed. I sincerely believe that God neither sanctioned nor condoned their actions and any 'christians' who committed anti-semitic acts will answer for them before his throne. Neither will the 'crusaders' who used the holy name of Christ as an excuse to enrich themselves in the east.

Maharlikana

Christ is the savior and no matter what you say, if you dont believe on him you will never be Christian.
to which ur saying, the catholics that worship the virgin mary are not christian. Thanks!!

-Kinstonya-

I'm a nihilist. :-P

explain to me how they were good...they murdered innocent people just beause they didn't convert when they said to. Thats not being a good christian in my opinion...
5
You shall NOT kill.

-Kinstonya-

The actual interpretation is "Thou shalt not shed innocent blood (murder)"

Can't blame Christians for bad events in history that they are not directly responsible for... But it's a good straw-man argument...

Woooo!

Simonist']What "Holy catholic church" are you talking about, in a Catholic church, that's not THE Catholic church? We don't talk about Protestants.

Wait, wait....okay, now I'm seriously lost, no joking. What Diocese are you from? 'Cause I at least know you're not from mine (pretty wide spectrum to make that guess, der....) or probably any in my region, but I never knew that the separate bishoprics could possibly be THIS different.

Edit: and sorry I was snippy before, I've just had almost this exact same debate several times today....no offense to you Shorteynick

I'm from the Archdiocese of Boston in Massachusetts

The Crusades were wrong no two ways around it and I'm glad that the late Pope John Paul II in his way apologized for things like that. Just because Christians do it or even do it in the name of God doesn't make it right nor does it mean it's sanctioned by God.

For example - anti-semitism. Many Christians felt that Jews were 'Christ-killers' and should be converted or killed. I sincerely believe that God neither sanctioned nor condoned their actions and any 'christians' who committed anti-semitic acts will answer for them before his throne. Neither will the 'crusaders' who used the holy name of Christ as an excuse to enrich themselves in the east.

Maharlikana
I know they are wrong...and I have never really liked reading about it. and I do belive John Paul II was one of the greatest people to ever live...but thats just me

-Kinstonya-

I'm from the Archdiocese of Boston in Massachusetts
Yeah, okay, wow....can't really argue with you, then, cause I have no clue how you do it up there. I've never even met a Catholic from Boston. They're all ex-Catholics who converted to rebel against their parents, and then moved away to further "show 'em".......but you guys are predominantly Irish as well, aren't you?

The actual interpretation is "Thou shalt not shed innocent blood (murder)"

Can't blame Christians for bad events in history that they are not directly responsible for... But it's a good straw-man argument...

Woooo!
dude!! lol! The christians are to blame for this historical event. I'm giving them credit where credit is due! I don't blame them for the Holocaust...or anything like that...just the crusades. and btw...they did shed innocent blood. they killed people in cold blood just because they wouldn't just drop their relegion and start christianity.

-Kinstonya-

Wow this topic is getting posted on fast. Well i was goin to post this back when this whole thing was on page 4 or 5 but i kinda got kicked off the comp so anyway. A person on one of those pages was talking about being touched by God well i have a story for everyone. I live on a small farm in SW Minnesota. Two years ago the Sunday before Easter we were unloading 900lb square bail into a shed.
My dad was running the loader and i was directing him. Well we were almost done when he caught one on the top of the door and it droped back on him. He bruised his face and shoulder, the preist at my church called it an act of God.
Now i'm guessing that most of you live in a city or away from a farm so you might not know that what happened to my dad is not that rare only thing is most people don't survive because they drop round bails instead of square on themselves. Now before anyone goes "Oh thats an act of God" i'll give you some facts. The loader pivits 4 ft from the pivit at the bottom the bail, because it is square and did not come off straight caught that point and flip/slowed some allowing my dad to duck into about a 2 foot space saving him. So that is my story for everyone to consider but the reason my dad is alive is because in my area we have had enough farmers die from that type of thing everyone knows what to do and were to jump/roll to if they have time. Now everyone go ahead call it an act of God or what ever the hell you want to do. This topic is like a fire people continue to throw gas onto so i'm going to stop posting before i say anything i will fully regret.

No.
I personally believe anything is possible, but you'll have a hell of a time convincing me that something is real until I see or experience it for myself. I used to be Christian, baptised by the United Church of Canada, but as I grew older, church and prayer just stopped having any meaning for me. I guess I'd probably be considered agnostic.

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot to mention. The new Pope frightens me for some reason. Maybe it's the dark circles under his eyes. He's really got that "Emperor Palpatine" look going on.

Simonist']Yeah, okay, wow....can't really argue with you, then, cause I have no clue how you do it up there. I've never even met a Catholic from Boston. They're all ex-Catholics who converted to rebel against their parents, and then moved away to further "show 'em".......but you guys are predominantly Irish as well, aren't you?

yeah, we are predominately (sp?) Irish, I'm 25% Irish myself.

Jesus was also human, and He accepted all of our sin with His death on the cross and, thus, went to Hell. However, He fought Satan and defeated Him and rose after the three days. He hung out on Earth for a while and then ascended into Heaven with His (and Our) Father.

Yeah, I Tivo'd that when it was on pay-per-view but don't tell anybody.

Seriously though, go to http://www.bible-truths.com if you want to see what Christianity is supposed to be, compared to the tragedy that it is today. This site made me so ashamed of my religion and the people who followed it I ended up atheist.

the french smell...

express to me why it would matter. thats like expressing to a stranger, how ur relationship is with your girlfriend or wife...or boyfried or husband...u know...what ever floats your boat. but it's personal information. why inquery about it??

-Kinstonya-

Hiya,

That is one of them most personal things.... Like getting hit in the face with a pie... You know when it happens.. I would not try to explain it to you or anyone else, because our "so what" moments all happen differently...

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything.. My answers will not be yours...

Booyaaah!

Not in the slightest. Christianity is riddled with corruption and lack of proof for any of their beliefs.
Let me get this straight, you don't believe it because it is as you say riddled with corruption,doesn't something have to true to be corrupted. Also It's a basic tenet that any religion regardless relies on Something called Faith otherwise it is not a religion. If you want provable facts stick to the god of science.

I know they are wrong...and I have never really liked reading about it. and I do belive John Paul II was one of the greatest people to ever live...but thats just me

-Kinstonya-
Yeah, we JP2 lovers of the Catholic persuasion are eagerly awaiting his poshumous miracles.....y'know, so he can be sainted.....I hear they're going to officially add "The Great" to his name. So proud! Up there with the likes of Pope Leo the Great!

I heart being Catholic, except when I get flak from my priest about storing my Bible on top of my Harry Potter books :eek: (I believe his exact words were "Seriously, Jen, be careful....Pope Benedict may come down rather hard on that, you know what he said back when he was a Cardinal" like the Pope's gonna come GET me or something. Give me a good shake-down. The Pope fights Brooklyn style.)

Jesus didn't descend to hell to fight Satan, he went there to get the souls of those dserving to enter the Kingdom, before Jesus was Ressurected all people who did were just waiting for salvation.

Yes, faith is necessary, but blind faith is stupid. People who do not ask for evidence or question their beliefs are fools. And using the Bible as proof of your faith leads to the annoying circular argument "The Bible is true because it is the word of God. It is the word of God because it says so in the Bible..." Idiots.



I agree with you on this point, however. It is basically asking "can God do something that God cannot do?" Remember my attitude towards the Circular Argument? I have a similar loathing for the Rock Question.

There is more written evidence of Jesus Christ himself than there is of Julius Ceasar. But people automatically believe in Julius Ceasar because he was in the history books and was supposedly a great leader.
If you read the bible there are many instances where faith has lead people to receiving their health. The only reason that people think Christianity is corrupt is because Catholic priests are molesting little boys and they still live by the laws of the old covenant by going before a priest to be forgiven of their sins when they can repent at the throne of the Living Almighty God.

If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ as your lord and savior that he died for your sins and was resurrected by God the Father on the third day you shall be saved. Paraphrase of Romans 10:9

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)



Do some serious biblical research on the "descended to hell" part.

dude!! lol! The christians are to blame for this historical event. I'm giving them credit where credit is due! I don't blame them for the Holocaust...or anything like that...just the crusades. and btw...they did shed innocent blood. they killed people in cold blood just because they wouldn't just drop their relegion and start christianity.

-Kinstonya-

Who said I was a "dude"? Current Christians are to blame for none of it... Were things done in history in the name of religion? Oh you bet! Are you saying that Christianity was the only one? How much history do you know?

Hiya,

That is one of them most personal things.... Like getting hit in the face with a pie... You know when it happens.. I would not try to explain it to you or anyone else, because our "so what" moments all happen differently...

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything.. My answers will not be yours...

Booyaaah!
...what the hell are u saying?? lol dude...being hit in the pie is not really a personal relationship...unless u marry the pie...lol

don't try convince me of anything...u'll be wasting both of our times...of course ur answers will never be mine...but u have yet to give a good enough reason why it matters wether or not someone's relationship with god matters to anyone else or not...

-Kinstonya-

Who said I was a "dude"? Current Christians are to blame for none of it... Were things done in history in the name of religion? Oh you bet! Are you saying that Christianity was the only one? How much history do you know?
I call everyone dude...equal rights :)

I don't blame you for what has happned in the past. you should not bare the sins of your fathers. but it's still a historical fact that it happned and it was wrong. what I really wanna know is why most christians believe it was "O.K."...thats my arguement here...

-Kinstonya-

i am not i am buddhist use to be thou.but i hvae found that buddhism has a lot in commen weht christian but in is true from it is just a philosophy.but i gess you can call me many thing.a buddhist a artist and a phlosopher. but these are all just titells. and words we use to desrieb staff.even being a christian only explans waht you think and want to think and i is just anter pont of view.so waht makes me wrong or you wrong.but that bring up meny other things.like the semple thing waht is riet and wrong.becoue in echcolcher there is a deffrent defanesion of that.just a thout.and that will be all i say for the moment. :D

...what the hell are u saying?? lol dude...being hit in the pie is not really a personal relationship...unless u marry the pie...lol

don't try convince me of anything...u'll be wasting both of our times...of course ur answers will never be mine...but u have yet to give a good enough reason why it matters wether or not someone's relationship with god matters to anyone else or not...

-Kinstonya-
Well allegedly they want to "save" you, which is a good enough reason in their minds, but I never understood that more than the average "dissenter" (ie non-Christian who's damn happy to stay that way). We're told NOT to try those bloody conversion tactics until somebody shows interest.....just brush 'em off, don't start an argument over what they feel is a duty.

Oh, wait.....sorry, that made me sound non-Christian, which I'm not, but, y'know....

...what the hell are u saying?? lol dude...being hit in the pie is not really a personal relationship...unless u marry the pie...lol

don't try convince me of anything...u'll be wasting both of our times...of course ur answers will never be mine...but u have yet to give a good enough reason why it matters wether or not someone's relationship with god matters to anyone else or not...

-Kinstonya-


AGREED! It doesn't matter... That's exactly whaut I said, diddle I?


;)

I call everyone dude...equal rights :)

I don't blame you for what has happned in the past. you should not bare the sins of your fathers. but it's still a historical fact that it happned and it was wrong. what I really wanna know is why most christians believe it was "O.K."...thats my arguement here...

-Kinstonya-

Dude... Who said I was a Christian? Just cuz I know sum stuff?

hehehehe.. You assume a whole big bunch!

;)

Simonist']Well allegedly they want to "save" you, which is a good enough reason in their minds, but I never understood that more than the average "dissenter" (ie non-Christian who's damn happy to stay that way). We're told NOT to try those bloody conversion tactics until somebody shows interest.....just brush 'em off, don't start an argument over what they feel is a duty.

Oh, wait.....sorry, that made me sound non-Christian, which I'm not, but, y'know....
it's to make the catholics think they have a pourpuse...lol

AGREED! It doesn't matter... That's exactly whaut I said, diddle I?


;)
no it's not...

Dude... Who said I was a Christian? Just cuz I know sum stuff?

hehehehe.. You assume a whole big bunch!

;)
the saying "your fathers" is stating that christians in general should not suffer from what happned in the past. you being christian or not. and since u stated ur not...more power to ya my friend!

Simonist']Well allegedly they want to "save" you, which is a good enough reason in their minds, but I never understood that more than the average "dissenter" (ie non-Christian who's damn happy to stay that way). We're told NOT to try those bloody conversion tactics until somebody shows interest.....just brush 'em off, don't start an argument over what they feel is a duty.

Oh, wait.....sorry, that made me sound non-Christian, which I'm not, but, y'know....

Actually, Christians would like to see as many saved as possible, whether they do it or not is another matter... Some have different "gifts".. Not necessarily gifted in doing that sort of community service stuff...

Jes my opinion...

it's to make the catholics think they have a pourpuse...lol
Okay, please Kinstonya, next time LOOK AT WHO YOU'RE REPLYING TO. Not that many posts ago, I said I was Catholic. And then I say that we're taught NOT to do that stuff. I know you're trying to be light-hearted, but I get really hurt when people assume it's just the Catholics that do this. Most of the time I see it, it's the Baptists, the Jehova's Witnesses, the Episcopals, (all three Protestant, btw) or if it is a Catholic, it's a Jesuit. And besides, I'm Benedictine anyway, we just let 'em be......

Simonist']Okay, please Kinstonya, next time LOOK AT WHO YOU'RE REPLYING TO. Not that many posts ago, I said I was Catholic. And then I say that we're taught NOT to do that stuff. I know you're trying to be light-hearted, but I get really hurt when people assume it's just the Catholics that do this. Most of the time I see it, it's the Baptists, the Jehova's Witnesses, the Episcopals, (all three Protestant, btw) or if it is a Catholic, it's a Jesuit. And besides, I'm Benedictine anyway, we just let 'em be......
I know u said that...I just have a sick sense of humor...lol sorry if it offended, but to me it was funny

Ok, so the Bible is the word of God right? Why is no one bothered by the fact that the Bible was written by people? Who were these people? Were they honest people? Were they even good people? We don't know this, because they are no longer living and no one actually knows them. For all we know they were a bunch of guys sitting around someone's house that decided to write this fantastic book that was possibly based on or loosely based on the reality of the time and see how many people they could convince it was true. According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus is perfect and what have you, but what about these people, the ones writing the book that Christians now live by. According to the Bible itself Jesus is the only person to live a perfect life. People exaggerate. People lie. Not to mention everyone else who has had their hands on that book since the original authors. It's really quite ridiculous how many opportunities there have been for the events to be altered.

The people of that time period needed answers to questions they were incapable of answering at the time. The Bible suited their needs and satisfied their curiosities. However, as time goes on and technology increases, we become more capable of answering these questions with real concrete proof.

The Bible was written based on the way life was thousands of years ago. Life has changed drastically since then, and I don't feel the teachings of the Bible and Christianity are as well suited to what we have become as it was for what we once were. Take the comandment regarding adultery for example. When the Bible was written life spans were drastically shorter than they are now. A college education was not necessary to have a good life. People were married and having children by age 13. This does not allow much time for adultery does it? Today, kids hit puberty earlier and earlier (some as early as 6 or 7), and it's not realistic to get married and begin a family until you are able to get a job that will support said family (which is generally after graduating college). That's 10 or 15 years between when your body is physically ready for and demanding such actions and when you are supposed to experience these actions for the first time according to the teachings of Christianity. I'm not saying this cannot be done. What I'm saying is that this is far more difficult and far less likely to happen. There is a huge difference between this span and the 10 minutes of the time the Bible was written.

I believe in being a good person. I believe in respecting my fellow man. I don't need a book to tell me how to do so. I don't need a promise of an eternity in Heaven or a threat of eternity in Hell. I have no desire to live my life by the rules of people I don't know who lived thousands of years ago in a different world than I live in. I refuse to believe in anything for which there is no concrete evidence, or at least convincing scientific theory. I have yet to be convinced by anything presented as proof of the Christian faith, and I'm not going to live my life believing in something I cannot be convinced of. I have gone to church, but the teachings never worked for me. From the time I was in fourth grade I was finding flaws in the teachings, and by eigth grade I could no longer attend.

I do understand that there are people who need something to believe in for whatever reason, and I think that's great that they have found something. Everyone needs something in life, and if believing in God is what you need, more power to you.

so are you...

but...relationship...relegion...either way...does it f'n matter!!?? no!

-Kinstonya-

Yes it does. It's more than semantics. Religion means dogma, rules, traditions and none of this can surpass or take the place of a dynamic relationship with a living eternal being. Religion says okay you follow these rules or else you burn in hell. A relationship means, I love you and have your best interests at heart, that's why I set down these rules to help you not to harm you, to give you a hope and a future. Now if you choose not to obey them, that will hurt me very much, but I still love you and I will forgive you if you ask for forgiveness, because someone has already paid the penalty for it.

Maharlikana

Atheist.

E-mail me @ rscampbell530@charter.net if you want to know why or have a debate.

Obviously I haven't bothered to read any of the thread as I doubt its any different from any other religion thread.


I voted 'no' btw.

no it's not...


the saying "your fathers" is stating that christians in general should not suffer from what happned in the past. you being christian or not. and since u stated ur not...more power to ya my friend!

Hiya.. I don't think that was my post that mentioned anything about fathers...

and I did NOT state I wasn't a Christian... I also did not state that I was....

I didn't think it was important... you didn't ask.. and I didn't tell...

Bwhahahaha.. I crack me up sometimes... :D

Yes it does. It's more than semantics. Religion means dogma, rules, traditions and none of this can surpass or take the place of a dynamic relationship with a living eternal being. Religion says okay you follow these rules or else you burn in hell. A relationship means, I love you and have your best interests at heart, that's why I set down these rules to help you not to harm you, to give you a hope and a future. Now if you choose not to obey them, that will hurt me very much, but I still love you and I will forgive you if you ask for forgiveness, because someone has already paid the penalty for it.

Maharlikana
apprently...u didn't read the other posts...so let me inform you.

Ones personal situation with god, or any personal matter for that fact, dosen't matter to you, me, or anyone else for that matter except for the two people, or beings, it is between :)

Ok, so the Bible is the word of God right? Why is no one bothered by the fact that the Bible was written by people? Who were these people? Were they honest people? Were they even good people? We don't know this, because they are no longer living and no one actually knows them. For all we know they were a bunch of guys sitting around someone's house that decided to write this fantastic book that was possibly based on or loosely based on the reality of the time and see how many people they could convince it was true. According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus is perfect and what have you, but what about these people, the ones writing the book that Christians now live by. According to the Bible itself Jesus is the only person to live a perfect life. People exaggerate. People lie. Not to mention everyone else who has had their hands on that book since the original authors. It's really quite ridiculous how many opportunities there have been for the events to be altered.

The people of that time period needed answers to questions they were incapable of answering at the time. The Bible suited their needs and satisfied their curiosities. However, as time goes on and technology increases, we become more capable of answering these questions with real concrete proof.

The Bible was written based on the way life was thousands of years ago. Life has changed drastically since then, and I don't feel the teachings of the Bible and Christianity are as well suited to what we have become as it was for what we once were. Take the comandment regarding adultery for example. When the Bible was written life spans were drastically shorter than they are now. A college education was not necessary to have a good life. People were married and having children by age 13. This does not allow much time for adultery does it? Today, kids hit puberty earlier and earlier (some as early as 6 or 7), and it's not realistic to get married and begin a family until you are able to get a job that will support said family (which is generally after graduating college). That's 10 or 15 years between when your body is physically ready for and demanding such actions and when you are supposed to experience these actions for the first time according to the teachings of Christianity. I'm not saying this cannot be done. What I'm saying is that this is far more difficult and far less likely to happen. There is a huge difference between this span and the 10 minutes of the time the Bible was written.

I believe in being a good person. I believe in respecting my fellow man. I don't need a book to tell me how to do so. I don't need a promise of an eternity in Heaven or a threat of eternity in Hell. I have no desire to live my life by the rules of people I don't know who lived thousands of years ago in a different world than I live in. I refuse to believe in anything for which there is no concrete evidence, or at least convincing scientific theory. I have yet to be convinced by anything presented as proof of the Christian faith, and I'm not going to live my life believing in something I cannot be convinced of. I have gone to church, but the teachings never worked for me. From the time I was in fourth grade I was finding flaws in the teachings, and by eigth grade I could no longer attend.

I do understand that there are people who need something to believe in for whatever reason, and I think that's great that they have found something. Everyone needs something in life, and if believing in God is what you need, more power to you.

And they claim athiesm is not a religion.... That is one heck of a lot of testimony, brother....

Hiya.. I don't think that was my post that mentioned anything about fathers...

and I did NOT state I wasn't a Christian... I also did not state that I was....

I didn't think it was important... you didn't ask.. and I didn't tell...

Bwhahahaha.. I crack me up sometimes... :D
alas...I have been defeated on an issue that isn't the issue at hand...good job!

"Changing the subject is a sign they are losing the arguement"

I know u said that...I just have a sick sense of humor...lol sorry if it offended, but to me it was funny
Honestly, I would've been way more offended if you'd said "you Catholics"....because then, it's oh, biatch!

No, seriously, it was just a vaguely somber moment, I wasn't all that hurt, I just at that point wasn't sure whether or not you'd known I was Cat-lick

Simonist']Honestly, I would've been way more offended if you'd said "you Catholics"....because then, it's oh, biatch!

No, seriously, it was just a vaguely somber moment, I wasn't all that hurt, I just at that point wasn't sure whether or not you'd known I was Cat-lick
no hard feelings?

alas...I have been defeated on an issue that isn't the issue at hand...good job!

"Changing the subject is a sign they are losing the arguement"

Hey ... I didn't defeat you on anything.. You defeated yourself, by making some assumptions.. I explained that I can't give you reasons, because my answers will not be yours. And I didn't think we were sparring.. But having a conversation...

What was the argument?

Get me back on topic!

It's almost humorous how you athiests are seemingly so passionate about jumping all over Christianity. I mean, if you are an athiest, you believe in ultimate purposelessness, so what do you gain from having these philisophical battles? Are you just trying to help a brother get some extra sleep on Sunday mornings? Seriously, I would like to know!

Christians have plenty of reason to engage in these intellectual battles for the mind and soul. Since we Christians believe in grand purpose in life, and we do believe in heaven and hell, and Jesus gave us the Great Comission, it is obvious why we show up at the debate table.

I have read all kinds of perspectives on religion, science, and origin of life. I have not been deceived by the secular world that believes in evolution and dismisses the idea of an intelligent designer. I am 100% confident in my Christianity, and I encourage those of you who haven't done yourself the justice of exposing yourselves to all points of view to read a book that will raise some doubts if you are a Darwinist and will give you even more assurance if you already believe in a Creator: The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel (a former athiest). What a great book!

May God bless you all and stir within you a passion to seek the Truth! If you are a non-Christian (or a Catholic, j/k), do yourself the justice of fully exploring the issues from all angles and perspectives before you dismiss it! There is eternity at stake!

no hard feelings?
Agreed, no hard feelings. Actually, I rather like your sense of humour, overall ;)

Hey ... I didn't defeat you on anything.. You defeated yourself, by making some assumptions.. I explained that I can't give you reasons, because my answers will not be yours. And I didn't think we were sparring.. But having a conversation...

What was the argument?

Get me back on topic!
no, I made the assumptions, and u called me out on them. I was defeated. the arguement was "does one's personal relationship with god matter to anyone else other then the person and god?"

it's over...I just like running it into the ground...:)

Ok, so the Bible is the word of God right? Why is no one bothered by the fact that the Bible was written by people? Who were these people? Were they honest people? Were they even good people? We don't know this, because they are no longer living and no one actually knows them. For all we know they were a bunch of guys sitting around someone's house that decided to write this fantastic book that was possibly based on or loosely based on the reality of the time and see how many people they could convince it was true. According to the teachings of Christianity, Jesus is perfect and what have you, but what about these people, the ones writing the book that Christians now live by. According to the Bible itself Jesus is the only person to live a perfect life. People exaggerate. People lie. Not to mention everyone else who has had their hands on that book since the original authors. It's really quite ridiculous how many opportunities there have been for the events to be altered.

No they weren't always honest and they weren't always good but they loved and tried as hard as they knew how to serve a God who was greater than themselves which was all that mattered in the final analysis.

If Christianity was as bunk as other faiths of the period in that region, why was it - along with Judaism - the only one to survive in an unbroken chain until today? What of the gods of Rome, of Greece, of Mithraism, of the Baals, of the gods of Egypt and Carthage, of Astarte and Artemis?

Why did it survive? Because time and time again people, Jews and Gentiles alike, believed enough to lay their lives on the line to be sawed in half, crucified upside-down, burned as torches and fed to lions rather than give up their beliefs. When the Roman emperor, believing that faith and loyalty were one demanded that all Christians sacrifice to the emperor - and by sacrifice it only meant sprinkling a little bit of incense on an altar in the presence of a priest - and their lives would be spared, did they do it? No. On the contrary, they took care of widows and orphans, lepers and the poor, the unwanted and unloved so much so that the Roman governors complained that more people were believing in Christ because they took care of humanitarian services better than the Roman government. Courage, loyalty, humanity are what characterized early believers, Jews and Gentiles alike, from men and women like Joseph (the Dreamer) and Esther to Judas Maccabeus and the woman whose sons were killed by the Greek tyrant one by one, to the twelve apostles and Paul to the hundreds who were martyred for their faith in God and, by New Testament times, in Christ.

Sadly, you see more courage, loyalty and humanity among certain non-Christian groups than in a lot of so-called Christians nowadays. But that doesn't mean that the God that Christians serve is any less powerful or less loving than he was to the people of the bible.

Maharlikana

It's almost humorous how you athiests are seemingly so passionate about jumping all over Christianity. I mean, if you are an athiest, you believe in ultimate purposelessness, so what do you gain from having these philisophical battles? Are you just trying to help a brother get some extra sleep on Sunday mornings? Seriously, I would like to know!

Christians have plenty of reason to engage in these intellectual battles for the mind and soul. Since we Christians believe in grand purpose in life, and we do believe in heaven and hell, and Jesus gave us the Great Comission, it is obvious why we show up at the debate table.

I have read all kinds of perspectives on religion, science, and origin of life. I have not been deceived by the secular world that believes in evolution and dismisses the idea of an intelligent designer. I am 100% confident in my Christianity, and I encourage those of you who haven't done yourself the justice of exposing yourselves to all points of view to read a book that will raise some doubts if you are a Darwinist and will give you even more assurance if you already believe in a Creator: The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel (a former athiest). What a great book!

May God bless you all and stir within you a passion to seek the Truth! If you are a non-Christian (or a Catholic, j/k), do yourself the justice of fully exploring the issues from all angles and perspectives before you dismiss it! There is eternity at stake!

If I might add one other piece of information..

To be an athiest, one has to believe that one has all the knowledge in the universe, and that there is not even the slightest possibility that one might have missed something along the way....

That is a little arrogant.... and not even subtly so... boldly arrogant...

no, I made the assumptions, and u called me out on them. I was defeated. the arguement was "does one's personal relationship with god matter to anyone else other then the person and god?"

it's over...I just like running it into the ground...:)
lol, when Kistonya's going down, s/he's taking the whole damn ship.....

Ok, so the Bible is the word of God right? Why is no one bothered by the fact that the Bible was written by people? Who were these people? Were they honest people? Were they even good people? We don't know this, because they are no longer living and no one actually knows them. For all we know they were a bunch of guys sitting around someone's house that decided to write this fantastic book that was possibly based on or loosely based on the reality of the time and see how many people they could convince it was true.

You know... this is a very good point. I've often wondered this, myself. How do we know that stuff wasn't *added* or *taken out* to suit the local monarchy/government/whatever? We are playing a game of World Nations where that sort of thing occurs all the time.

I've heard the arguement that "God wouldn't let someone corrupt HIS word..."

To that I say "Ma Boothill".

I challenge anyone interested, for the sake of experiment, to challenge this arguement and take out your Bible, open up Word on your computer - turn OFF spellcheck - and type it all out...word for word.

How many PERFECT copies would we get?

Food for thought... It may be a cool book with a lot of cool stories. It may have even been divinely inspired... but it's FAR from the divinely inspired work that it's perported to be.

My thoughts.

I know they are wrong...and I have never really liked reading about it. and I do belive John Paul II was one of the greatest people to ever live...but thats just me

-Kinstonya-

So do I (about the late Pope John Paul II) and I'm an evangelical Christian. That's what I mean about the holy catholic (universal) church and about Christian faith being a relationship, both vertical (God and man) and horizontal (man and his fellow men) - John Paul and Mother Teresa too, amazing people. While Christian sects and denominations have their differences I think these are not as important as what you believe and put your faith in, and what you do as inspired by that faith. Like Eric Liddell said, muscular Christianity.

Maharlikana

Simonist']lol, when Kistonya's going down, s/he's taking the whole damn ship.....
ya dang skippy!

I believe in God, not necessarily Christ, I'm still a bit spiritually tapped at the moment. Right now my school is pretty much impaling me and stoning me with work, so Christ isn't exactly at the top of things to consider.

No. I find that Islam and Zoroastrianism are more internally consistent, and Zen Buddhism and Taoism lend themselves to a more relaxed lifestyle.

Is anyone keeping score?

You know... this is a very good point. I've often wondered this, myself. How do we know that stuff wasn't *added* or *taken out* to suit the local monarchy/government/whatever? We are playing a game of World Nations where that sort of thing occurs all the time.

I've heard the arguement that "God wouldn't let someone corrupt HIS word..."

To that I say "Ma Boothill".

I challenge anyone interested, for the sake of experiment, to challenge this arguement and take out your Bible, open up Word on your computer - turn OFF spellcheck - and type it all out...word for word.

How many PERFECT copies would we get?

Food for thought... It may be a cool book with a lot of cool stories. It may have even been divinely inspired... but it's FAR from the divinely inspired work that it's perported to be.

My thoughts.

And what about the Constitution? The works of Nostradamus? The Book of the Dead? The Necronomicon? Sayings of Confucious? With that logic, nothing is safe... Not a thing!

Who said I was a "dude"? Current Christians are to blame for none of it... Were things done in history in the name of religion? Oh you bet! Are you saying that Christianity was the only one? How much history do you know?

I think it's too much to ask that any nation or creed take responsibility for the actions committed by its members in the past. But I do believe we should learn from them and be HEARTILY SORRY for them and do what we can to remedy it (isn't that the essence of saying sorry? Making as much restitution as we can?) I mean who can change what's happened for instance between Japan and countries like Korea and China? Between the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland? Between Rome and Carthage? Between the Christians of Europe and the Muslims of Palestine? But as Christians we are commanded, if we know we have wronged our brother, to go and be reconciled to him even before offering prayers or offerings. (Sermon on the Mount) Likewise we are to forgive those who hurt us, not blast them off the face of the earth with tomahawk missiles or AK-47s.

Maharlikana

No. I find that Islam and Zoroastrianism are more internally consistent, and Zen Buddhism and Taoism lend themselves to a more relaxed lifestyle.

Is anyone keeping score?
Ooh, no, but I wish!

Darlings, everyone who's played along with me, especially my new best friend (or....whatever), this has been lovely, but I have a date. So I'm off. IM me any time you like, unless you're just going to be a jerk, and then I'll cry.....

No, and I'm also a dumbass for not noticing the poll at the top of the thread.

My bad.

And what about the Constitution? The works of Nostradamus? The Book of the Dead? The Necronomicon? Sayings of Confucious? With that logic, nothing is safe... Not a thing!
you do know...that uh...the book of the dead and the necronomicon aren't real...right? :confused:

I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe he was a prophet, not divine. I do not think he was ressurected.

I believe that Jesus wed Mary Magdalene and she, not Peter was to lead the church.

I consider the gospels of St. Thomas, Phillip, and Mary Magdalene, and the Testimony of Truth to be the pure teachings of Jesus Christ.

I consider myself to be a christian, and the bible is to be taken in the context in which it was written. I follow the teachings of the gnostic christians.

(and if you think that I base this all off The Da Vinci Code you are very very wrong ;) )

No one understands, no one at all. I suppose that's not true, but most of the non-christians replying don't understand. Not every Christian is a perfect person. Not every Christian is a good person. Why blame all of us for the sins of some? Why blame God for the sins of some? He gave us free choice, and he refuses to rescind that decision. Why are we so complex? Because God can create anything he wants, and when he made us he did a good job of it. Most of these questions have simple answers, and if you can leave it be, there will be no need to stab and rend with the daggers of your words and demand that we admit we are wrong. Jesus's message, his commandment, his gift, was love, and we are to share that. Stop fighting, he tells us, and just let it be.

Atheists are always complaining about the details. They don't matter. If you truly disagree with one statement or another that the Pope has issued, so be it. God will still accept you into heaven if you are a good person and have faith. Relax.

If you lost loved ones, or suffered other trajedies, there is nothing I can really say to change that. But if you are mourning, there will always be someone who will listen and comfort you at the nearest church. Even if the building is empty. (I am referring to God here...)

If you won't give God a chance, so be it. I cannot change your mind with this small gathering of words on a computer screen. I still wish you luck in all your endeavors.

The peace of the Lord be with you always.
Brandon

Agnostic until the inevtiable end. If this god does exist i will confront him/it/she then. After all im a human and my mind is clouded with millions of thoughts that brings me away from this god charater.

No they weren't always honest and they weren't always good but they loved and tried as hard as they knew how to serve a God who was greater than themselves which was all that mattered in the final analysis.

If Christianity was as bunk as other faiths of the period in that region, why was it - along with Judaism - the only one to survive in an unbroken chain until today? What of the gods of Rome, of Greece, of Mithraism, of the Baals, of the gods of Egypt and Carthage, of Astarte and Artemis?

Why did it survive? Because time and time again people, Jews and Gentiles alike, believed enough to lay their lives on the line to be sawed in half, crucified upside-down, burned as torches and fed to lions rather than give up their beliefs. When the Roman emperor, believing that faith and loyalty were one demanded that all Christians sacrifice to the emperor - and by sacrifice it only meant sprinkling a little bit of incense on an altar in the presence of a priest - and their lives would be spared, did they do it? No. On the contrary, they took care of widows and orphans, lepers and the poor, the unwanted and unloved so much so that the Roman governors complained that more people were believing in Christ because they took care of humanitarian services better than the Roman government. Courage, loyalty, humanity are what characterized early believers, Jews and Gentiles alike, from men and women like Joseph (the Dreamer) and Esther to Judas Maccabeus and the woman whose sons were killed by the Greek tyrant one by one, to the twelve apostles and Paul to the hundreds who were martyred for their faith in God and, by New Testament times, in Christ.

Sadly, you see more courage, loyalty and humanity among certain non-Christian groups than in a lot of so-called Christians nowadays. But that doesn't mean that the God that Christians serve is any less powerful or less loving than he was to the people of the bible.

Maharlikana


Right on Maharlikana. Some people make it very obvious that they have no idea how the Bible came about when they make statements like, "Some guys were sitting around a table and decided to write a book." Christianity exploded like this:

Jesus died and rose from the dead. There were over 500 witnesses, including the disciples. You have to remember that written documents were very scarce then. If you wanted to write something down, you couldn't just run home and grab a pad and paper. But letters were eventually written by those witnesses, either by the apostles themselves or by those close to the apostles. Those letters were so precious, that churches would rip the long scrolls into several parts to take back to their churches and then exchange later.

What prevented false letters from being written? The witnesses! If someone would have tried to pass along something faulty, John would say, "No, that's not right! I was there!" Paul was well aware of people trying to give false testimony. That's why in his letters, he would tell followers to not be deceived and he told them they would know his letters by his handwriting.

Many people have this notion that the Council of Nicea in 325 was something revolutionary. It was not. They merely put a rubber stamp and made official the books that ALL of the churches were using. Out of ALL of the church bishops from ALL over the region, there were only TWO dissenting bishops. It was practically unanimous. The books we have today were not compiled haphazardly as Dan Brown would have you believe in The Da Vinci Code.

The Bible is very interesting. It took over 1500 years to be written. All of it is God's word (as Paul wrote in his letter to Timothy). It has 40 different authors from 40 different walks of life. It was written on 3 separate continents in 3 separate languages. Yet, all books speak towards all controversial topics with absolute unity.

Before you knock the Bible, read it.

ok and waht if the universe is is own god and it was crated from anotther universe.os wont that make the universe god? agen just food for thout.

I think it's too much to ask that any nation or creed take responsibility for the actions committed by its members in the past. But I do believe we should learn from them and be HEARTILY SORRY for them and do what we can to remedy it (isn't that the essence of saying sorry? Making as much restitution as we can?) I mean who can change what's happened for instance between Japan and countries like Korea and China? Between the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland? Between Rome and Carthage? Between the Christians of Europe and the Muslims of Palestine? But as Christians we are commanded, if we know we have wronged our brother, to go and be reconciled to him even before offering prayers or offerings. (Sermon on the Mount) Likewise we are to forgive those who hurt us, not blast them off the face of the earth with tomahawk missiles or AK-47s.

Maharlikana

You are very good at time compression. You would have someone apologizing and making amends with those long dead in ancient history for blasting them with tomahawk missles and AK-47's?

I am not sure how that is going to work out... I am tryng to understand your point here...

I'm leavn the boards for tonight...but for all of you who didn't know...I'm Southern Wesleyan :D

you do know...that uh...the book of the dead and the necronomicon aren't real...right? :confused:

Wanted to see if anyone was paying attention....

You were! probably no one else even caught that!

Wanted to see if anyone was paying attention....

You were! probably no one else even caught that!
for that matter...they are the same book...

I'm quite religious - Jewish.

for that matter...they are the same book...

AND you caught that too! Dang.. we gonna be buddies!

:D

I gotta book too... Work manana!

l8tr

I know that i said i would stop posting before i said anything i would regret but hey. You say that John and Paul would have stoped it, whos says they would have they have been dead for a long time. But this whole debate is usless because all sides involed are to thick to admit that the other has the possiblity of being right, to me its gods word vs. gods rock and the rock speaks louder to me.(see previous post on page 1 or 2). But as of right now i ask everyone to put all there beilifs aside Christian Athest what ever and look at it with an open mind (Not the churchs open mind, sorry but i had to) and look at every angle and possiblilty before ripping into other people becuase they see the world in a different light. For the record I'm a Hybrid not really Christian not really Athest.

You know... this is a very good point. I've often wondered this, myself. How do we know that stuff wasn't *added* or *taken out* to suit the local monarchy/government/whatever? We are playing a game of World Nations where that sort of thing occurs all the time.

I've heard the arguement that "God wouldn't let someone corrupt HIS word..."

To that I say "Ma Boothill".

I challenge anyone interested, for the sake of experiment, to challenge this arguement and take out your Bible, open up Word on your computer - turn OFF spellcheck - and type it all out...word for word.

How many PERFECT copies would we get?

Food for thought... It may be a cool book with a lot of cool stories. It may have even been divinely inspired... but it's FAR from the divinely inspired work that it's perported to be.

My thoughts.


Sounds like someone has been reading The Da Vinci Code! The Church changed it! Right? WRONG!

You probably believe the Bible was passed down like the telephone game where you start with something and by the time that it is relayed through many different people, you have something totally different when you are through! Well the Bible was relayed in a far different way than the game of telephone.

We have over 25,000 copies of the Bible from the first few hundred years after it was written, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. Many copies were made from the originals and from the original copies. All of these copies came from varying time periods. When you lay TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND copies side-by-side, it is very easy to see where any errors may have been made. Mistakes may have been made in individual copies here and there, but when compared to the masses, it is quite easy to see that we have what God wanted us to have!

Dan Brown would have you believe that the corrupt Catholic Church had every copy of the Bible ever made and changed the parts they didn't like to create what we have today. That is a lie out of hell and logic confirms it! The Bible was not put together haphazardly.

The Bible is very interesting. It took over 1500 years to be written. All of it is God's word (as Paul wrote in his letter to Timothy). It has 40 different authors from 40 different walks of life. It was written on 3 separate continents in 3 separate languages. Yet, all books speak towards all controversial topics with absolute unity.

Before you knock the Bible, read it.

Exactly! Reminds me of the story of the American Civil War general and publicly known atheist, General Lew Wallace, veteran of 'Bloody Shiloh' among others. He was telling an atheist buddy of his how he thought the Bible was so much bunk and he wanted to convince others of the same. He was then challenged by an atheist buddy of his to write a book, since he was a pretty skilled writer too, to help push his theory (shades of Dan Brown and the Da Vinci Code).

Guess what? Before he could finish his work, he told his friend he would have to change his novel around because he no longer believed that the Bible was bunk. The book he went on to write was BEN HUR, one of the classic novels of English literature.

The enemy is so afraid someone will open up the book which will open up that person's mind. That's why there are so many attacks on it nowadays.

Maharlikana

One final post the catholic church has toned down the bible alot. I had a look at my Great great great grandma's bible while doing a little project they have tone everything down alot not to metion taking out the thees and thous

You are very good at time compression. You would have someone apologizing and making amends with those long dead in ancient history for blasting them with tomahawk missles and AK-47's?

I am not sure how that is going to work out... I am tryng to understand your point here...

I'm talking about all the simmering hatred among people that I'm pretty sure God isn't too pleased with. Okay, Rome and Carthage was extreme but, believe it or not, the city of Rome concluded a peace treaty with a suburb of Tunis that represents old Carthage, IIRC during the 1980's. Never to late to start making peace. And when Christians can, I believe we should behave with humility and show by our actions that we are sorry for tragedies like the crusades, the inquisition and northern Ireland.

Maharlikana

Is anyone familiar with the writings found at Nag Hamaadi? they are similar to the Dead Sea Scrolls

Sounds like someone has been reading The Da Vinci Code! The Church changed it! Right? WRONG!

You probably believe the Bible was passed down like the telephone game where you start with something and by the time that it is relayed through many different people, you have something totally different when you are through! Well the Bible was relayed in a far different way than the game of telephone.

We have over 25,000 copies of the Bible from the first few hundred years after it was written, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. Many copies were made from the originals and from the original copies. All of these copies came from varying time periods. When you lay TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND copies side-by-side, it is very easy to see where any errors may have been made. Mistakes may have been made in individual copies here and there, but when compared to the masses, it is quite easy to see that we have what God wanted us to have!

Dan Brown would have you believe that the corrupt Catholic Church had every copy of the Bible ever made and changed the parts they didn't like to create what we have today. That is a lie out of hell and logic confirms it! The Bible was not put together haphazardly.

The Bible is the best attested and the most complete of the ancient manuscripts (see previous post on other, more 'accepted' manuscripts). And the mistakes made do not change very drastically the message of the passage.

Maharlikana

Except for the descended into hell part - which was added well after the creed was adopted in most churches. It also doesn't make much sense. Hell is the complete absence of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God. How exactly can God descend into the complete absence of God?


Because God created hell. In the Psalms, it says..."and He (Jesus) descended into hell, and led captivity captive." Jesus took the keys of hell and death back from the Adversary, and with King David, who shouted "open ye gates that the Lord of Glory may come in" marched into the open Gates of Heaven. (Anything more than that right now would be a very long discussion, and I'm going to bed. If anyone's interested in discussing this, let's do it another time. Just let me know.)

I believe that Jesus is God's son. I believe he was raised from the dead. I believe he is the ONLY WAY to get to heaven. And yes, there is a heaven and a wonderful, magnificent God. You have to have faith. And to those who say they do not believe in God because there is no concrete evidence, that is a terrible reason. There is no concrete evidence dissproving a God, either. The Bible has never been proven wrong. The only thing that has ever been contested are the dates. However, the length of a year or a day or whatever is different then than it is now. There was no set standard like there is now. Therefore, the Bible has never been proven wrong. On the otherhand, it has been proven right many times. And, it will never be proven wrong- it's all true!!! :D

If the Bible was written by uninspired humans (as some here are contesting) then I think that the entire thing would read like the Nag Hammadi manuscripts. There's a reason why they were excluded from the official canon and despite Dan Brown et al's claims to the contrary they are not what the early church thought at all. See Justin Martyr, Polycarp and Irenaeus for the reasons why.

Maharlikana

I am a Devout Roman Catholic with some Jewish beliefs thrown on top of that.

And to those who say they do not believe in God because there is no concrete evidence, that is a terrible reason. There is no concrete evidence dissproving a God, either.
You are the one making claims of the existence of an omnipotent God. I believe the burden of proof would, in most intelligent discussions, fall upon you. On the otherhand, it has been proven right many times. And, it will never be proven wrong- it's all true!!! :D
Problem number 1: When the hell has it been proven right? Links, please. I'd LOVE to see this.

Problem number 2: Not being proven wrong does not mean that it's true. Not being proven wrong simply means not being proven wrong. To take an example from the US legal system, a criminal can be found Not Guilty due to lack of evidence. That does not mean that he is innocent, only that there is no evidence to prove his guilt.

And, for the record, I'm an atheist/agnostic. I believe that higher powers do not exist, but I know that it's impossible to prove either way. The only thing I object to regarding religion is when people make absurd claims and use logic that has a metric fuckton of flaws. This also goes for atheists who I see doing the same thing sometimes.

Well, yes. I am a Christian. I say the Apostle's Creed every Sunday and every evening when I recite my evening prayers.

I also perpetually scrutinise my faith because that's what Christ would have wanted me to do, as a thinking human being. I have debates with other Christians and constantly ask questions to a priest friend of mine about very tough issues relating to our faith, and about the 'difficult' parts of the Bible.

Jesus didn't descend to hell to fight Satan, he went there to get the souls of those dserving to enter the Kingdom, before Jesus was Ressurected all people who did were just waiting for salvation.


"Deserving" to enter te Kingdom? Just where in the Bible does it teach that any human deserved to enter the Kingdom?

People of faith (like Abraham and Rahab) are saved by God's grace...His righteousness in imputed to them through Christ's death -- they didn't earn their way to Heaven.

Don't refer to denominational doctrine or creeds...get into the Bible and research this issue.

Does it even sound consistent with Biblical principles that people of faith would have descended into Hell, the kingdom ruled by Satan (wow, what a concept), as a holding pattern for Jesus to come get them?

Does it even sound consistent with Biblical principles that people of faith would have descended into Hell, the kingdom ruled by Satan (wow, what a concept), as a holding pattern for Jesus to come get them?
Not really, no.

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

Catholic is supposed to be a little "c"

I'm catholic, so... yes, I think I am.

:sniper: wow, that dude was right, emoticons rock!! Anyway, I'm staggered by the size of this thread, although it's the first one I've ever read, man am I a n00b... But I have HAVE to put my 2 centavos' worth in, only it'll be worth like 2 of whatever Sweden's currnecy is, cause centavos are too devalued for all I'm gonna write. So here goes, a rundown from an educated, reasoning college student who's seen what life is like outside of America, for the poor of the world (something every American should see at least once in their life, to put it all in perspective), on all that I've read on this thread (gave up on pg 9 or 10):
:cool: I consider myself to be a "true Christian," a term which I will elaborate on soon, and I also consider myself to be a man after God's own heart, judging from the best example of that, King David in the OT, who loved to sing psalms for God, and wrote them too, knew how to serve and how to lead, cared for others than himself (most of the time, but David was human), and liked the ladies. Oh, and he was repentant when he knew he'd screwed up. I also would love nothing more than to sing psalms to God, when the time is right , for sometimes it may not be, I am very good at taking orders and also very good at just giving of myself to assist others (and get dirty with the people spreadin' the dirt), I can lead, too, but I prefer complete democracies (I had a Democratic Socialist state before I turned it Corrupt Dictatorship on accident), and I do like the ladies (and I like to please them, too, but don't write too much into that, I'm not as experienced as I may sound). So, as a man of God, a man after God's own heart, and a Christian (but one who disapproves of oragnized religion), I must say that first: whoever pointed out that the question was are you a Christian yes or no had a great point, and yes I profess to be a Christian. All you thread-purists out there, holla back, y'all!
second: I've been raised in church, first Lutheran, then nondenominational, fine churches all, and I've read the Bible my whole life, until recently when I can quote some of it and that I can't quote, I know what its meaning is, if not the exact words. I have received a top grade American education (whatever that is, scoff) and have reasoned thus: The whole Bible as Christianity reads it leads to this, that to respect/fear the Lord is honorable and will bring you favor in His sight, something that comes with little and big benefits here and there when you're least expecting them, and to believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior is to be confident in your spirituality, that you will go to Heaven if killed or expired, and that God exists. Also, to quote the best verse in the Bible (not John 3:16, a great verse and central to the New Testament, but people so overquote it that I can't see it as the greatest verse, it's simply a description, not a mantra or something. geez.), from my man James, "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." Now I must apologize for quoting NIV, but it was the only thing in the room, and my overzealous parents have an NIV in their collection, though I prefer NAS or KJV. Now, using this verse as an example for the main and best points of the Bible, Christianity as a religion is just what Bhuddism or Hinduism or Islam, etc. is as a religion : caring and providing for those less fortunate than oneself, and not following the sinful, hurtful, damaging ways of the majority of people, nay, humanity, in the world. Monks do just this, and so anyone who's gonna bash Christian monks needs to go research the actions of monks around the world. Notice how the only difference between Christian and Bhuddist monks is who they claim to worship, or that some Bhuddist monks make sacrifices of actual tangible things.
I know this from my personal experiences: God is, first and foremost, love for every human ever, since they are all His creations (and reasonably, all his children), so God is compassion for all. This is the first mark of a true Christian - compassion for fellow men (and women). Jesus taught nothing but compassion (and reverance for God, but mostly compassion), as He said "what you have done for the least of these, you have done for Me." Christianity was never meant to be a religion, especially not in the eys of Jesus. One need only read the New Testament with half a brain to find this out. He simply left his followers with the command, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them (which is more concerned with the inner heart than any water on the outside)...and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Jesus never commanded anything concerning organized religion, except "Honor the Sabbath day, and keep it holy," by which He was actually referring to the JEWISH holy day, not Sunday, but Saturday, Sabbath Day, Sabado, Суботта, etc. Jesus was a Jew, and He grew up reading Jewish scriptures like Deuteronomy. I personally believe and trust in the belief that Jesus would be ashamed of all that Christianity has grown into, from the time of the Great Schism (well, before that, really, in its roots) through the Crusades and all pervasive European anti-Semitism, all the way to here where fundamentalist Christian Protestants believe that every denomination other than theirs is wrong and Catholics aren't Christians (and don't even know what Orthodox is) and Catholics and Orthodox believers pray to a host of Saints who have no Biblical or Messianic foundation. Jesus said nothing about saints except to refer to those people who were as we would say "saintly," merely people on earth who were righteous of heart and reverent toward God. Saints are part of the institution of Christianity that human Christians throughout history have elaborated on, first as a tool to convert pagan European villages, then as an honored tradition and intrinsic part of Church structure. Any Catholic, Orthodox (Eastern, Ukrainian, Greek or Russian), Protestant, or nondenominational Christian who has been around enough people not of his/her own denomination or religion knows that Church Saints are not a determining factor in one's own salvation, nor are they rerferred to in the teachings of Christ. Christ was only concerned with helping people in need, correcting those who had the wrong idea about God (and Himself), and giving His life so that we might live. I also believe Christ would find this thread rather silly. But then again, so do I, when you get down to it. Although ona side note, since my new favourite movie is Kingdom of Heaven, the Crusades are one of the things I am most ashamed of in Christian history - the third Crusade (or was it the Fourth?) even sacked Christian Constantinople!!! If that's not hypocritical, what is? Humans have a nature of ending up as hypocrites, bigots, all manner of mean people, only because we think of ourselves first, naturally. It is only when we learn to value others and not ourselves that we can fully grasp what Christ wanted for those to be called Christians. The word Christian means "little Christ" or "Christ-like" (i've heard both), and not anything about religion, so Christians would be those who know the teachings of Christ alone and attempt to follow and spread them.
Wow I've typed a lot, but I must say before I am done, that Elizabeth from "Ceremia", I think you are absolutely beautiful, and I say this only in the frame of what you have posted on this thread. You are the kind of Christian woman for whom I hold the utmost respect, and I pray God continues to bless you with a sharp, understanding mind and a good heart. To all of the Christians on this thread: don't worry about anything. Christ said it was a sin (or close to a sin? like a sin? I don't remember his exact words) to worry when you trust in God, so don't do it. And to the ones who answered no to this thread's original subject, it's your right to believe what you think is the truth, and ours, ours, I only pray you find peace even in your soul, no matter who or where you are. Take care, y'all, and peace OUT
-Nick (Mikolaj, Николай, Niccolo, Nicolas, Nicolás, Nicholas, and if anyone knows other versions of Nicholas, please let me know.)[/SIZE]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=1] :sniper: wow, that dude was right, emoticons rock!! Anyway, I'm staggered by the size of this thread, although it's the first one I've ever read, man am I a n00b... But I have HAVE to put my 2 centavos' worth in, only it'll be worth like 2 of whatever Sweden's currnecy is, cause centavos are too devalued for all I'm gonna write. So here goes, a rundown from an educated, reasoning college student who's seen what life is like outside of America, for the poor of the world (something every American should see at least once in their life, to put it all in perspective), on all that I've read on this thread (gave up on pg 9 or 10):


Hey Nick,

Great post though the letters are a bit too small for these old eyes. Hit me back if ever you want to chat about the Kingdom of Heaven and such:

teacher_tom516 AT yahoo DOT com

Best regards,
Maharlikana

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

i have two problems with that statement there... Jesus never suffered because of Poncious Pilate or however the fuck you spell that... if i recall correctly all through the book of mark you can see how Pilate repetedly tried to get the Roman priests NOT to crucify Jesus time and time again he tried to get them to leave the man alone... and repetedly they refused... now weather the apostle's creed says that or not i could care less because for one i HATE Catholics... i am Completely Protestant... but thats not matter here... what matters is the facts are wrong pilate is NOT to be blamed for Jesus's death... the true person to blame is you and me... we are the reason he was crucified.. because if we could live perfect lives and not sin then he never would have had to die for us right? right... and to add to that the people of rome and the priests were the ones who wanted the Crucifixion of Jesus Pilate tried to talk them out of it repetedly he even tried to make them let Jesus go to keep a Murderer in Jail but they told him to relese the Murderer and Crucify Jesus so in fear for his own life Pilate told them to crucify him.. and Jesus told him that he was not held responsible by the father for his decision... so whoever wrote that Apostles Bullshit obviously does not have their facts straight...

I will take this a step at a time...


First, faith is required in all religions.
Second, there is plenty of evidence that the people, places, and events occurred as detailed throughout the Bible. There is also plenty of evidence that the Bible has not changed in any appreciable way since it's first writing (and in that regard, that it was accurate when it was written).


The statement itself is a logical fallacy...making any assumptions of God's power irrelevant (not just false). There are assumptions that are not met by the very structure of the statement. Take a course in logic.

Interesting argument. Of course the logical statement is based on assumptions about omnipotence and such like - it's fatally flawed. Just like all the logical arguments for God (ontological, telelogical ect.)

Now the faith bit - that's interesting. All religions require you to believe without proof. Now here's the rub - if we say that faith in a religion is sufficient proof to you, that endorses other faith based claims. For example, guys who flew planes into skyscrapers probably had a lot of faith they were doing the right thing. I may have a lot of faith in the fact there's little green men on Mars.
Now if faith is a guide to truth, you either have to say that these 'faiths' are either valid, or that your faith is somehow superior. But if you say your faith is superior, you have no proof other than your own internal thoughts. In other words, you cannot justify your superiority of beliefs (incidently, complete certainty is usually a sign of insanity).

Alternatively, you say that faith isn't sufficient proof, but you still believe, then you've said that you don't have any full reason for believing. In other words, you're making a guess. Just like an atheist guesses that God does not exist. In this sense, perhaps the most honest person is the agnostic who says that they don't know, and refuses to make a guess.

Incidently, I'm agnostic, but I don't like organised religion one bit. I think that people should think for themselves.

I was just wondering: some members of this forum have been referring Christians as "pushers", like drug pushers of their religion, and are generally disliked within their entire community. But for myself, I feel that I am generally like by my friends really because how I conduct myself as a Christian, like a listener for other people. What's the contradiction/relationship there?

I think there may be a God or an afterlife, but I'm not a firm believer. And I think then Bible is a greater work of fiction than the likes of Lord of the rings or so on. For one thing, its totally contradictory. In the Old Testament, God's always angry, smiting people and reducing mankind to ash again and again. In the New Testament, he's all happy and, 'Oh forgivness for everybody, don't fear me'. The fact is the Bible is a mere book of spin written by the King's of Old times, the worst culprit being King David. He assasinates a guy so as he can take his land, and then goes 'Oh, no it was God who killed him, not me.' Oh so that must be alright. So shall I shoot Tony Blair, or George Bush through the head, and then say 'It was God, not me'. I bet you I'd be dragged off to a lunatic asylem pretty sharpish!!!

then he never would have had to die for us right? right...

Right or wrong as you may be, a rhetorical question is defined as a question that need not be answered, except possibly by a stunned, hypnotized audience shouting in unison. Answering them oneself is very poor form and makes the speaker look clumsy and insecure, as if he or she needed to reassure themselves of the validity of their viewpoint.

I didn't vote because I believe in the Apostles' Creed when it is properly spelled. I also like the Nicean creed better, and even though some like to interpret the line "unam sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam ecclesiam" (One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church) as meaning "all Christians," the Church that the creed refers to is the one Church of Christ, which is the apostolic community that was started by Jesus on Pentacost day some 2000 years ago, and has the bishop of Rome as its rightful leader.

So, in short, yes, I am a Catholic.

...Pontius Pilot...
Who?

i dont believe anything of the cristian faith, because they claim their 'sheep' performed miracles. but in fact most of them were natural events, like mozes who supossedly slit the ocean: this was really caused by an vulcano erruption in the meditaranien, which also explains 'the pillar of fire'. and noah and his ark: the tidlewave was caused by a breach where constantinople lies now, which caused water from the mediteranin to flow into the the lake that lies there (forgot the name). and that any of those people heard voices could also be explained by any form of mental illness

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)


I believe that you are stupid, and you accept what you are told to accept far too readily. C'mon think about it, people raising from the dead, almighty God in heavan who created everything, eternal struggle between good and evil ......... how can you not see that as the biggest load of crap ever .... My God man, what were you thinking?

Perhaps we are and perhaps we're not. If Christ is not raised from the dead then we're to be pitied worse than fools (the real Christians at least, not liars who give Christianity a bad name) who suffer indignity, torture and death for a fiction.

If it's false then we're fools. If it's true... then we have everything to gain and nothing to lose. We're ready to stake their earthly existence and eternal lives on this faith - brave or foolhardy, we made our choice.

Maharlikana

Interesting argument. Of course the logical statement is based on assumptions about omnipotence and such like - it's fatally flawed. Just like all the logical arguments for God (ontological, telelogical ect.)

Now the faith bit - that's interesting. All religions require you to believe without proof. Now here's the rub - if we say that faith in a religion is sufficient proof to you, that endorses other faith based claims. For example, guys who flew planes into skyscrapers probably had a lot of faith they were doing the right thing. I may have a lot of faith in the fact there's little green men on Mars.
Now if faith is a guide to truth, you either have to say that these 'faiths' are either valid, or that your faith is somehow superior. But if you say your faith is superior, you have no proof other than your own internal thoughts. In other words, you cannot justify your superiority of beliefs (incidently, complete certainty is usually a sign of insanity).

Alternatively, you say that faith isn't sufficient proof, but you still believe, then you've said that you don't have any full reason for believing. In other words, you're making a guess. Just like an atheist guesses that God does not exist. In this sense, perhaps the most honest person is the agnostic who says that they don't know, and refuses to make a guess.

Incidently, I'm agnostic, but I don't like organised religion one bit. I think that people should think for themselves.

A pity I didn't read this before Trifiltrate went offline....
But his/her argument was quite a bit more thought out than the usual agnostic arguments, and I cannot resist adding my comments to the given line of thought.....

The first assumption was that all religions require faith without proof. I doubt that is what the Bible says that God wants. More precisely, it says that it is impossible to please God without faith. Thus faith is the only way to prove that God exists. That doesn't mean that there is no proof of God, but that the undeniable proof first requires faith in God. The writers of the Bible make this claim.

My second point to this argument is that faith and reason are created to be 'friends'. At no point does the Bible ever suggest reason to be left behind. In fact, Jesus is often understood at trying to get the multitudes to think, eg. about the cost of following Him, and about what the Kingdom of Heaven was really like, and the alternatives to the Kingdom of Heaven. The Bible does make it clear that faith is superior to reason, but not opposed to it. What could be more reasonable than trusting in the Almighty, especially when you are out of control in your life? Therefore, when those chaps flew into the twin towers, they may have had plenty of faith, but one can question whether the just and kind and merciful God that Allah is supposed to be would really want his followers to cause to much mindless destruction of people who had very little to do with their 'righteous cause'. Somewhere along the point, they left their reason behind them. This is not what the Bible asks us to do. So I definitely see a difference between Christianity and other religions.
You may have faith that there is little green men on Mars, but that is in no wise comparable to faith in God, for on one hand, there is very little reason to suggest that there are such creatures on Mars (although there may well be??). And yet there are some pretty powerful arguments for the existence of God, such as the origin of life, the universe, laws of nature, etc.

Just having a faith is not sufficient proof that that faith is right or true. We humans need more than that, otherwise we end up believing that a rocket ship waiting for us out in space is somehow our destiny.

The atheist, of course, is in a most precarious position, for he makes a claim that God doesn't exist, but he cannot defend his claim very well, for he has limited knowledge (as any human) of the world and the universe. The agnostic is in a much better position, for at least he acknowleges some of his limitations, and says that perhaps there is a God. But then he goes on to say that one can never know that there is a God. That is another claim that is hard to defend, for it is once again based on limited knowledge. What he really means is that so far he believes that God has never tried to communicate personally to him, and thus in his experience God cannot communicate with him (if he does exist). His mistake is that his experience is rather limited compared to the experience of every person alive today, and all the ones that lived before, and he is somehow willing to place his own experience of God, or the lack of Him, above the witnesses of millions of others, simply because he now has some 'nice' little explanations for all the 'mistaken' evidence for God.

Possibly that only point T. and I agree on is that people should think for themselves. To me, Christianity is perfectly reasonable, IF you accept a God whose love and grace is far above our own capacity for reason. Thus, when people truly think for themselves, as Jesus meant them to, they must come up against some huge choices....exactly what Jesus intended.

Gandhi has once remarked that Christianity is a lovely religion...if they actually practiced it. I tend to concur with him, as I've seen many which are termed non-Christians act in the essence of love and charity for their fellow man, rather than wage war or squabble over a difference of translation in their holy text, or to enslave and destroy civilizations in the name of their God. "Buddha came on white elephants, and Christ came on a cannonball," as another proverb goes, and I'm very happy to belong to said religion which intention and personal choice shapes my life and where I end up in the wheel of karma, rather than being coerced to believe in something or face the consequence of damnation and all them "fun" stuff with fire and brimstones and pitchforks just because I rather not believe. If there is an Almighty, I would like to believe He or She would be the best of us, rather than this spoiled child that constantly demands attention and worship and subordination, and would be more delighted if we were to truly mature and be compassionate to one another irregardless of gender, race, or skin color. I would say God would prefer an equal in their infinite compassionate to all beings, rather than a puppet that is a pale shadow of their true self. My two cents, so it's neither carved in stone nor the final word.

I an and I can tell you that based on a number of experiences I've had, the existance of God dosen't trouble me. The nature of God, whatever it is, troubles me very much.

Consider if you will;
Most religions that center on biblical text also focus on things like life, forgiveness, hope, love, peace, etc. you know everything fluffy pink and wonderfull. They even tell people that all they have to do is say they believe the dogma of the day and 'POOF' eternity will be wonderfull.
However...
When we consider the above teachings we find little writing from which to study;
1. "I am a god of vengence." God
2. "Vengence is mine sayith the Lord"
3. Lets not forget the time Jesus got pissed off (yes it is in the book) and, in his anger used a miracle to kill an olive tree. (also of interest in this story is that when he kills the tree the apostles are shocked and frieghtened but Jesus turns to them and saysthat they will do greater miracles...) greater?
4.We don't get much background on God, but what we do get is always consistent. A few examples;
A. Everything He creates, He condemns and will destroy at some point
a. Lets not forget that God Knew in advance that the new creation was flawed and would therefore have to suffer his condemnation.
B. God, in doing the above has created his own enemys. The first Angel cast out of heaven, most beloved of all, is now the Satan or Evil One. (Not to be confused with Evil itself, that is something different all around.)
C. God says He suffers when His creations suffer, yet He created us knowing we would piss Him off and that He would bring His Wrath apon us.
a. Interesting also to note that as far as we can tell, when God is hurting everyone around Him has to hurt too. "...the saints cry in heaven...". Remember?

This is a fair example I think, and it's already too long for this kind of comunication so to wrap it up:

--God would most likely have to be the Supreme Sadist with a background that speaks of serious mental issues or dementia. He is then pained and conflicted, look what He did toHis only begotten son.

But yes I am a Christian

holy catholic = the church universal, not specifically the Roman Catholic Church. The body of believers around the world who have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Maharlikana

If you will notice in my post I'm denying the catholicity of the Roman Catholic in favor of the Orthodox Church.

Your interpretation of the meaning of universal is wholly untraditional and obviously influenced by mushy liberal protestant interpretations of the creeds. The Universality of the church does not apply to those who do not adhere to the dogmas set out in the creeds themselves, which excludes a great deal of individuals who claim to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. Universal means that anyone can believe the One True Faith, there is nothing preventing any person from becoming a part of the Church, not that everyone professing to believe in Christ actually believes the One True Faith.

Hey all,
What a great thread this is and what brilliant discussions have been going on. Its provided a very useful distraction from revision for my exams, so I thank you.

First of all (well technically not first since ive already talked for 3 lines), I'd like to say I am a Christian, God is amazing, Jesus rocks my world and the Holy Spirit just keeps me partying all day long.

Secondly, I've read all this thread (took a good 90 mins with toilet break) and I've seen no one give a simple explanation of what Christianity is. One of the problem people seem to be having is that some are looking at Christians rather than whats behind it. I know some have addressed this issue before so I wont bang on aboot it.

Thirdly, when I finally start to explain Christianity, I will use quotes from the bible. Some people on this thread have had a problem with using the bible, but I speak (or al least type) as a Bible believing Christian and if this provides a problem for you I'm sorry but I ask you to please read on.

So here goes. I'll start at the very beginning, what a very good place to start!

Way back in the beginning God (the God of the bible) created the universe and everything in it from the tiniest atoms to the largest star constellations, He created them all.

He also created mankind, all humans, both male and female. However, He created them different from the rest of the creation, He made them in His image to rule over all the creation.

N.B. "in His image" does not refer to physical looks but to the fact that humans have God like qualitites which no other thing in creation does.

God created man with a free will to be in a perfect, loving relationship with Him forever. God gave them all the creation to rule over and told them to be fruitful and increase in number, i.e. reproduce.

So a peachy situation was around, with God the creator and loving ruler of all creation in a fantastic relationship with man, and man acted as stewards over all creation.

But, humans, with their free will did not like being under God's rule and so rebelled against God and decided to make themselves ruler of their own lives. The sort of "I know whats best for me"/selfish attitude we all have.

So, as God gave us free will, He didn't stop us turning our backs on and rebelling against Him. However, with this way of life we have chosen, there is a consequence. That is seperation from God. That once perfect relationship is shattered for eternity and we had no way to get back to God. Thus we are in for an eternity seperated from God.

But God didn't hide Himself from us. He had already given us things that would make us aware of a God, for example, the creation, where we can see Gods magnificence and also in the fact that humans have a seeking attitude to ask questions like "why are we here?" and the like. So humans have tried to get back to God by their own efforts, such as by being good or trying to live a decent life, or even reading the bible, praying and going to church and singing to God. But the problem is that these things don't fix the ultimate problem, our broken relationship with God. Nothing we do can fix it. We're in a pretty bad state really.

But, because He loves us so so much, God didn't leave us in this helpless state. He saw our situation and knew we couldn't bridge the infinte gap between ourselves and God, but He knew that He could.

God sent Jesus, His only Son to Earth. Now while he was on Earth, Jesus went around Israel teaching people about the Kingdom of God but that wasn't His main purpose while He was on Earth. Jesus' role and job, as it had been since the before the creation of the world was to fix the relationship between us and God. How did He do this?

Jesus was both fully Human and fully God. He led the perfect life. He didn't live with the selfish attitude that we all live with. He was perfect in every sense of the word.

And because He was perfect, He was able to take all the punishment that we deserve for our rebellion on Himself and thus pay the penalty for our lives. He was beaten and punished and finally put on a cross to die FOR YOU and for me.

You see, it had to be Jesus who fixed the gap between us and God because we couldn't do it ourselves. How do we know Jesus suceeded?

On the third day after dying, Jesus rose from the dead, He came back to life. He had the power to beat death which was the punishment for our rebellion. Death could not hold Him because He is God.

Jesus now sits in Heaven with God as the ultimate ruler of all. And all we have to do to fix our relationship with God is just to believe that Jesus has paid the punishment for your rebellion and then you will be forgiven and then have the ASSURANCE of eternal life in Heaven with Jesus and with all the others who believe.

So now we all have a choice to make.
1. We can accept that Jesus is the Son of God who came to Earth to die and pay the penalty for our rebellion and to fix our relationship with God.
2. We can ignore this and carry on living in our rebellion, continue in our broken relationship with God and be eternally seperated from Him.

The bible says that one day in the future, Jesus, the risen ruler, will return to Earth and take all those who have believed in Him to the new Heaven and new Earth. The rest (those in option 2) will be then eternally seperated from God in a place known as hell.

Its a simple choice we all have to make. We have until Jesus returns to do it and that could be today or years from now, but He is coming. We choose either option 1 or 2. There is no middle ground.

Its like if you're stood in the middle of the road and a bus is heading straight for you. You can either to choose to move to safety on the pavement or you can choose to stay where you are and get crushed. Not making a decision is as bad as choosing not to move since the bus will still hit you.

A couple more things before I finish. Jesus, while he was teaching on Earth, claimed to be the Son of God who will die for all mankind to bring them back to God. He also claimed that He would be risen back to life. We can look at this in two ways.

Either, Jesus is an absolute nutter who things He's the son of God who can rise back to life. Or He's telling the truth. Think about it.

If anyone has any questions, comments, or just wants to talk more about this, feel free to either IM me or you can email me at A.J.Giles@warwick.ac.uk

I also have plenty of things I would love to send to anyone who wants to look at this in more depth. Just email me your address and I'll send it, free of charge.

If you've read this far, thank you.

I really hope and that God will use what I've written and speak to you through it. If He does, then I can't wait to see you in Heaven. It's gonna be great.

God is amazing, He loves you and wants to be in that relationship with you.
Let Him!!!

Andy

I believe in god, as imaged in the Parent almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in the spirit, held holy, sacred spaces, the forgiveness of error, the continuity of the material (ashes to ashes, dust to dust), and Life Everlasting (Zoe). Amen.

----my creed (with symbolism appropriately indicated as personal pronouns).

Not in the slightest. Christianity is riddled with corruption and lack of proof for any of their beliefs.
No faith can "prove" their beliefs. That's why they call them "faiths." Duh.

Yes... and while I'm at it...

" I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen"

-Nicean Creed

"Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally.
Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the Godhead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation."

-Athanasian Creed

" Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us."

-Chalcedoanian Creed

Reformed, Presbyterian.

I believe in God the father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, out Lord. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of the Virgin Mary. He sufferd under Pontius Pilot, was crusified, died and was buried, he decended to hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, he accended in to Heaven, and is seated at the right had of God. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Cathlic Chrurch*, The forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body ad the Life everlasting. Amen.

----The Apostles Creed.

(*Being all Christians.)

No. And I also stopped believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy when I was about 6 or 7 years old.

Sorry.. My Biblical Grammer is not that great... I'm sure you know the Ten Commandments... But just in case...

The Commandment



1
I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other gods before me.

Faith (Trust in God)
All faith in God, freedom from lesser gods: wealth, sex, power, popularity.

2
You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain.

Respect

Holiness
Respect for God and the things of God: prayer, worship, religion.

3
Keep holy the Sabbath day.

Renewal
Not just the Sabbath rest, but setting aside time for prayer, good recreation, quiet reflection.

4
Honor your father and your mother.

Family
Loving care and respect for all family members, elders and younger siblings, too. Respect for elders in general.

5
You shall not kill.

Respect For Life
Courtesy to all, speaking respectfully to all, seeking the best for all. Respecting others' freedom while still defending all human life.

6
You shall not commit adultery.

Chastity

Faithfulness (Fidelity)
Faithful actions beyond just abstaining from sexual contact outside of marriage. Respect for sex and marriage.

7
You shall not steal.

Justice (Honesty)
Concern for the rights of others, especially when they get in the way of what we desire. A commitment to fairness and a willingness to suffer loss rather than depriving another.

8
You shall not bear false witness.

Truth
A dedication to what is real and true, even if that reality is against our interests.

9
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

Purity
A desire to want only what God wills. A single-hearted devotion to God's way.

10
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

Generosity
A cooperation in God's own generosity that sees all goods as belonging to God and freely given for the good of all.


I do, of course, have to point out that these are two things:

One: NOT the Ten Commandments. The only set of Commandments CALLED the "Ten Commandments" occurs elsewhere within the text... and does NOT match this list.

Two: Written by Moses, as it expressly states within the scripture.

It is also impossible to prove the existance of air, but without it, or at least we think so, we would not live.

Who told you it was impossible to prove the existence of air?

I do, of course, have to point out that these are two things:

One: NOT the Ten Commandments. The only set of Commandments CALLED the "Ten Commandments" occurs elsewhere within the text... and does NOT match this list.

Two: Written by Moses, as it expressly states within the scripture.

Of course it doesn't. Commandment two says that there should be no graven image of God and it is hard to follow that when there are pictures of Jesus everywhere that people bow down to.

There is more written evidence of Jesus Christ himself than there is of Julius Ceasar. But people automatically believe in Julius Ceasar because he was in the history books and was supposedly a great leader.
If you read the bible there are many instances where faith has lead people to receiving their health. The only reason that people think Christianity is corrupt is because Catholic priests are molesting little boys and they still live by the laws of the old covenant by going before a priest to be forgiven of their sins when they can repent at the throne of the Living Almighty God.

If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ as your lord and savior that he died for your sins and was resurrected by God the Father on the third day you shall be saved. Paraphrase of Romans 10:9

There is NO contemporary evidence to supprt the existence of Jesus.

None at all.

Obviously, this is far less than that available for Julius Caesar.

I'm not sure if you were being deliberately misleading, or if you really believe what you say....

Yes-I'm a Christian.

i dont believe anything of the cristian faith, because they claim their 'sheep' performed miracles. but in fact most of them were natural events, like mozes who supossedly slit the ocean: this was really caused by an vulcano erruption in the meditaranien, which also explains 'the pillar of fire'. and noah and his ark: the tidlewave was caused by a breach where constantinople lies now, which caused water from the mediteranin to flow into the the lake that lies there (forgot the name). and that any of those people heard voices could also be explained by any form of mental illness

Some miracles could be explained by natural events as you describe, but isn't it unlikely that the volcano went of by chance as the isrelites were being chased, is it not more likely that God set off the volcano. I also find it hard to believe how an eruption could cause a pillar of fire to lead the isrelites around the dessert for 40 Years and, even if the flood was caused by a tidal wave, how did Noah know about it far enougth in advance to build a boat and collect animals into it. Also, Jesus definately came to the earth and was crucified, His resurection couldn't have been a natural event, so, if christianity was untrue, Jesus' deciples must have made it up, but what incentive did they have to do so? 10 out of the 11 of the apostles were matyred for there faith, they were beaten and whipped in the temple and repeatedly arrested yet still they continued preaching the gospel, if they knew it was false, why did they carry on, surely they would not have given up there life for something they knew was false??
On the other hand, what if it is true? What if Jesus did Die on the cross for Our sins, what if following him is the only way to be saved as i believe?

If you have any comments/ questions, please e-mail me at benritchier@hotmail.com

I'm talking about all the simmering hatred among people that I'm pretty sure God isn't too pleased with. Okay, Rome and Carthage was extreme but, believe it or not, the city of Rome concluded a peace treaty with a suburb of Tunis that represents old Carthage, IIRC during the 1980's. Never to late to start making peace. And when Christians can, I believe we should behave with humility and show by our actions that we are sorry for tragedies like the crusades, the inquisition and northern Ireland.

Maharlikana

Hello.... Following your logic, we should all be perfect then and not act like the barbarians that we are.

Well first - I am not going to apologise to anyone I have not personally offended - mainly because I would have no idea who that would be, if they even existed. I am not going to be a doormat for anyone who thinks I owe them something I don't...

And last of all, if we were all that perfect, or could be that perfect, then Jesus death on the cruel Roman Cross would have no meaning in this day and age....

You be sorry for the both of us.. You seem to know whom I offended better than I do...

Sheeeesh!

Yes, except for one having to be a Catholic to be a Christian... Jesus was pretty adamant and clear about how to become and remain a Christian.

There is NO contemporary evidence to supprt the existence of Jesus.

None at all.

Obviously, this is far less than that available for Julius Caesar.

I'm not sure if you were being deliberately misleading, or if you really believe what you say....

There is no contemporary evidence to support.. Black Holes.. UFO's.. Ghosts... Quarks... Quantum Mechanics... Pee Wee Herman....

Documents had survived that supports the crucifixion... Romans were very good record keepers....

You not done yer homework....

im a muslim but we belive in chritianity...just like we belive in judaism

I do, of course, have to point out that these are two things:

One: NOT the Ten Commandments. The only set of Commandments CALLED the "Ten Commandments" occurs elsewhere within the text... and does NOT match this list.

Two: Written by Moses, as it expressly states within the scripture.

Written by Moses, as commanded by God.

Yes, I am a Christian, and I believe in the Apostles Creed.

However, I am not a judge, and don't pretend to be. I let people live their lives, believe gay marriage should be legal, and I should mind my own business if it doesn't concern me.

im not a christain, i dont.. cant believe in something people have so stupidly believed in. God is made up by man, the bible was writen by man, and back wen divine right was still around. One person said he got a message from god telling this and that, and the people are shocked make him the ruler.
this is wut i got to say about god and all religion believing in something man made ............. God :mp5:
The stupidity of man :gundge:
all religion in general :sniper:

no

im not a christain, i dont.. cant believe in something people have so stupidly believed in. God is made up by man, the bible was writen by man, and back wen divine right was still around. One person said he got a message from god telling this and that, and the people are shocked make him the ruler.
this is wut i got to say about god and all religion believing in something man made ............. God :mp5:
The stupidity of man :gundge:
all religion in general :sniper:
Please no more help, you are welcome to not believe in god but don’t do us a favor by acting intolerant and ignorant about it nor is it right to lambaste others about their faith when you have no more proof of it one way or the other

I do not believe in god but settle down a bit the gun smiles also defiantly don’t improve our opinion of your logic nor intelligence they are best used sparingly

Written by Moses, as commanded by God.
What parts of the bible are not supposedly commanded by god to be written? (or inspired by god)

There is NO contemporary evidence to supprt the existence of Jesus.

None at all.

Obviously, this is far less than that available for Julius Caesar.

I'm not sure if you were being deliberately misleading, or if you really believe what you say....


Wow--not doing your homework indeed! Even Muslims believe that Jesus existed because there is so much written about him. The cricifixion really is the most documented historical event that has ever happened, and the life of Jesus has his own historical books about it from historians that--get this!--weren't even Christians!

Yes, I am a Christian and even though I can't PROVE the existence of God, that's what faith is. I could speculate, saying that it would be impossible for life to create itself, but I know evolutionists disagree with that, and I would say I can feel God working within me making me who I am, but you could argue that, like John Locke said, it is impossible to have knowledge without observation. I can't SEE God, I can't TOUCH him, but I know He's in my life and somehow--SOMEHOW--I KNOW He's real.

When I was younger, I used to wonder about how I could tell God was real. My answr came in an old maxim: You can't see the wind. You can see the effects of the wind, how it blows the grass and dries the earth, but you cannot see it. How do you know it's there? By seeing the effects.

Come on people! If you don't want to believe there's a God, you have to believe in SOMETHING. Maybe it's yourself--but then you have to ask yourself how you came to be. How did the earth come to be? How was the ENTIRE universe made? I guess it's my own opinion speaking when I say I believe that God is the answer to all my questions. People would say I'm ignorant--that I'm just taking the easy way out of finding solutions to my problems. But I can tell you one thing--nothing else makes sense.

I have history to go by, too. Did you know that until Constantine fought under the Christian flag, he was losing his battles? I'm not saying he was a Christian, nor were the acts he did, but the fact that he won legalized freedom of religion in the then-Roman world. Even that happened for a purpose. Christians were no longer put to death! The Israelites won so many battles because of the Lord providing for them. Unless you think Gideon and his army of 300 could actually defeat the enemy of 2000+ while they slept because they were afraid of him? No way.

Like I said, there's no logical way to prove God exists--but there's no logical way to disprove it either. You can say whatever you like--you cannot diminish history at all, nor can you refute the fact that something HAD to start everything out. Whether or not you BELIEVE there's a God, you cannot prove their isn't. So why not imagine that there could be?

Please no more help, you are welcome to not believe in god but don’t do us a favor by acting intolerant and ignorant about it nor is it right to lambaste others about their faith when you have no more proof of it one way or the other

I do not believe in god but settle down a bit the gun smiles also defiantly don’t improve our opinion of your logic nor intelligence they are best used sparingly


Some folks just have .. "issues"..... Wooooo!

Some folks just have .. "issues"..... Wooooo!
True that the far extremes seem to help very few people support what could be a reasonable argument on either side

Some folks just have .. "issues"..... Wooooo!


yes i do have some issues... :rolleyes: :headbang:

im not a christain, i dont.. cant believe in something people have so stupidly believed in. God is made up by man, the bible was writen by man, and back wen divine right was still around. One person said he got a message from god telling this and that, and the people are shocked make him the ruler.
this is wut i got to say about god and all religion believing in something man made ............. God :mp5:
The stupidity of man :gundge:
all religion in general :sniper:

there are those for whom judgment will come as a shock... i'm sure God doesn't appreciate you "shooting" him.

True that the far extremes seem to help very few people support what could be a reasonable argument on either side

There was a time when it was considered bad form to discuss politics or religion in polite company...

The wisdom of the elders.....

Too bad we didn't learn anything ....

yes i do have some issues... :rolleyes: :headbang:

I wouldn't be too proud of that!


It's considered a weakness in the real world!

there are those for whom judgment will come as a shock... i'm sure God doesn't appreciate you "shooting" him.

Probably a BIGGER shock for some than you think....

I wouldn't be too proud of that!


It's considered a weakness in the real world!

who ever said i was proud of it. I just choose not to tell or show anyone, and i know i know thats not good either.

Probably a BIGGER shock for some than you think....
Well not if it is a god which I happen to believe deserves worship judging me

Well not if it is a god which I happen to believe deserves worship judging me

And if you are wrong.... you haven't lost anything... but if THEY are wrong....

Well.... and so it goes....

And if you are wrong.... you haven't lost anything... but if THEY are wrong....

Well.... and so it goes....
No I don’t believe in a god at all but a god worth worshiping for me would take into account my life experiences and my personality and realize I have done the best I can with my life irregardless of worship of him
(and pascal's wager has been debunked a few times I wouldent try that “we have not lost anything” line)

who ever said i was proud of it. I just choose not to tell or show anyone, and i know i know thats not good either.

Here's a real wise tip .. and it's for free...

When you get all emotional, you can be most easily manipulated.. Your logical half of the brain and your emotional half cannot be in control at the same time...

Advertisers and politicians and lawyers know and understand this.. The sooner you do, the sooner you will no longer be able to be easily victimized...

No charge...

No I don’t believe in a god at all but a god worth worshiping for me would take into account my life experiences and my personality and realize I have done the best I can with my life irregardless of worship of him
(and pascal's wager has been debunked a few times I wouldent try that “we have not lost anything” line)

It stands.... I did not assume you were "so called" believer...

It stands.... I did not assume you were "so called" believer...
Ahhh think I maybe misread was interpreting it as the standard “hedging” of bets just incase sort of point of view
Sorry :)

Ahhh think I maybe misread was interpreting it as the standard “hedging” of bets just incase sort of point of view
Sorry :)

That assumes that *I* was a "so called" believer....

No problemo!

It does not matter whether you are a believer in Christ,God, Holy Spirt (or Whatever) the fact is religion has provided us with a lot of benefits in our world. If it was not for religion we would not have any sense of moral justice by which our laws are founded upon. We may not have been able to recognise evil or appreciate good e.g charity etc. People have also been able to connect with each other through religion. In fairness you can get extremists but they are genrally minorities which would be found in any kind of society, religious or not.

That assumes that *I* was a "so called" believer....

No problemo!
That it does … I just get that argument so much that my mind went into that mode :)

I'm definitley not a Christian, I'm a devout Zoroastrian.

It does not matter whether you are a believer in Christ,God, Holy Spirt (or Whatever) the fact is religion has provided us with a lot of benefits in our world. If it was not for religion we would not have any sense of moral justice by which our laws are founded upon. We may not have been able to recognise evil or appreciate good e.g charity etc. People have also been able to connect with each other through religion. In fairness you can get extremists but they are genrally minorities which would be found in any kind of society, religious or not.
You make a lot of assumptions of such … I have no faith and religion does not determine my morals but I am still able to formulate both my ethics and my morals without the help of religion

What is to say others could not do the same

*ahem* I find it much more interesting that many people never noticed how there's an infantile tendency running in many monolithic religions that someone HAS to be in control, and that random events MUST have logical explanations be they the will or judgement of God, and that in the end what happened is strictly because that's how God plans it to turn out to be (lots of this criss-crosses with predestination, but I still think is valid even if you don't believe in predestination), it smacks of not being able to take personal responsibility of one's thoughts and actions since everything can be attributed to God, both good and bad. I realize that many different Christian sects preach moral responsibility, yet to me it appears very much that this moral responsibility is due to fear of judgement from God when the time comes, rather than the true awareness in one's consciousness that it's wrong and harmful to society as a whole. It is fear of punishment and excessive guilt which drives much of Christianity from what I've seen...it's a closed system in which free choice is strictly defined between two extremes, to accept God and his creed or to deny it and be condemned. Between those two, I really think it isn't that much of a choice now, don't you think? :confused:

I agree with the Apostles' Creed. I love God, our Lord Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Spirit...and He has forgiven my sins and is with me always. Amen! :)

I am most definitely not Christian. I also believe that you do not have to practice Christianity to have a strong moral code. Many other reglions and philosophies have been doing it for thousands of years-witness Taoism as an example.

That said, if someone wishes to follow Christianity that is their choice and there is nothing wrong with it. It is not the choice for me.