NationStates Jolt Archive

Many people go through a 'rebellion' stage in their religious life, but usually end up more or less where they started, and usually in a slightly-different system than their parents, from what I've seen. Catholics becoming protestants, et cetera.

And Nekone: Are you saying you would have no faith if there were no 'teachings' and so forth? You need rules and stories to believe?I will admit, there has to be a base for Faith to begin. But that base is not only proof of God. it can be the lesson's he teaches and the morals of his religion, It can also be experiences one has.

God is Forgiving. is a big one for me. of all the 'Wrath of God' stories that were told, the ones that really stuck to me are the stories of him forgiving people who actually ask for it.

Again I will say, if you are honest in wanting to learn, wether or not you Believe of have Faith, these boards are not the way to do so.

I will admit, there has to be a base for Faith to begin. But that base is not only proof of God. it can be the lesson's he teaches and the morals of his religion, It can also be experiences one has.

God is Forgiving. is a big one for me. of all the 'Wrath of God' stories that were told, the ones that really stuck to me are the stories of him forgiving people who actually ask for it.

Again I will say, if you are honest in wanting to learn, wether or not you Believe of have Faith, these boards are not the way to do so.

But boards are good enough for communication and discussion which is the same in person as is over the net.

Then the issue becomes the 'string of faith'. You have to have faith in the translation you hold, and faith in the people who chose those books, and faith in the people who wrote those books, and faith in the mental faculties of those who told the original stories, and faith that it didn't get altered prior to being written.

ahh.. now suddenly more information is coming... after asking for more, I finally get it... alas too late.
you never gave any Fact. no 'Teachings' no 'Examples' nothing. And yet none of the teachings of the bible are fact. The books of the bible were written by men who you have no way to determine if what they wrote was true. Not only that the books of the bible were "chosen" by more falable men in the council of nicea. These are the same group of people who decided to say eating meat on fridays during a specific time period(I am a little rusty on my religious periods) would make you go to hell in order to save the fish market.

1) if that is how others witnessed to you... then no wonder you lost your faith. I've never heard of anyone saying to anybody... Faith first then the information comes. Not even in these threads.
My religious beliefs really are not important here.

2) I never said you needed Faith to know the Truth. but you need to believe to find God. there is a difference. Without Faith, all you will see are the Scientific explinations. not saying they are false, but that is all you'll see.
When Moses threw down his staff and it became a serpent, the Pharohs 'Wise Men' did the same. and while the Pharoh only saw that his people could perform the same trick, he failed to notice what happened to the Staves of the Wise men. he continued to disbelieve until it came to the point where God had to do the one thing that even he could not disprove and you know what... he still didn't believe. because he had no Faith in God and thus grasped at any and all explinations.
Lets look at this moses story. You say that because he had no faith in god he could not see the correct explanation of the event that occured. Well I have given you a similar arguement. The raelian religion believes that super intellegent aliens created humans and they wish to come back and share their knowledge with us. All you have to do is have faith in the aliens and you would see that it was their explanation that was correct. And yet you reject this view because of a lack of proof. So how is it then that your story of moses holds any more water than the raelian explanation. It is the same sort of lesson the moses story you cited tries to get across and yet you reject it. So even though you say that in order to see god you need to have faith in him when another religion comes around with this same point of view you reject it on the basis of lack of proof. Hypocritical much?

Nope... I said You needed Faith to Find God. Anyone can Learn about God. I never said Faith was necessary to Learn about God. Meanwhile you never stated anything to prove a basis of your faith.
and I ask questions about your religion and got answer, in fact, you got angry and accused me of not being serious. at least when you asked, I pointed you to those who could answer your questions, but you couldn't answer mine, until now, you didn't even point me in any direction and even then the directions are vauge.
LOL... again, I never said you needed faith to see the Truth. Only to Find God. How can you find God if you don't know anything about him. So you learn. through the learning, Faith is developed and then, when you least expect it, you will find that all this time, God was standing right there beside you.
Okay I said you basically needed faith to find the Raelians and yet you say you dont believe in them. And once again you say you need Faith to find god. So if you dont believe in the raelians even when all you have to do is have faith in them why is it that you can use that arguement for christianity?

and as for your little aliens... my answers are honest. I am still with God because you've given me nothing. christiantiy can give you parables, lessions, stories, and answer your questions even before you think about Belief or Faith.
The reference to Raelians is just used to further the arguement. I have never tried to actually convert you this whole time only use them as an example. And you say christianity can give you all those things and yet the Raelians can give you the same thing. They can point to evolution to further their claims and point to the message sent to their leader. And yet when someone says all you have to do to find the aliens is to have faith you refuse because there is no proof like the stories you have listed. I really think the attitude you need faith to find god is just a bad way of jumping around the question when you run out of proof of god.
Edit:sorry about the bold I wasnt sure if my posts would stand out from the quotes

Then the issue becomes the 'string of faith'. You have to have faith in the translation you hold, and faith in the people who chose those books, and faith in the people who wrote those books, and faith in the mental faculties of those who told the original stories, and faith that it didn't get altered prior to being written.

Sorry to quote myself, but:

You also have to have faith in the entity itself, that it isn't a really clever human*, alien*, or other supernatural entity*, and that they have your benefit in mind. And then there's the matter of THEIR mental faculties, and whether there's something BIGGER than them in some way, that they are unaware of, which has its own desires... so on and so forth.

Ironically, Churches tend to be against gambling. :D

And yet none of the teachings of the bible are fact. The books of the bible were written by men who you have no way to determine if what they wrote was true. Not only that the books of the bible were "chosen" by more falable men in the council of nicea. These are the same group of people who decided to say eating meat on fridays during a specific time period(I am a little rusty on my religious periods) would make you go to hell in order to save the fish market.
so you don't believe in any of the teachings of the Bible? not a one.

My religious beliefs really are not important here.why not... oh, I see... only the Christians are allow to have their beliefs and their Faith scrutinized...


Lets look at this moses story. You say that because he had no faith in god he could not see the correct explanation of the event that occured. Well I have given you a similar arguement. The raelian religion believes that super intellegent aliens created humans and they wish to come back and share their knowledge with us. All you have to do is have faith in the aliens and you would see that it was their explanation that was correct. And yet you reject this view because of a lack of proof. So how is it then that your story of moses holds any more water than the raelian explanation. It is the same sort of lesson the moses story you cited tries to get across and yet you reject it. So even though you say that in order to see god you need to have faith in him when another religion comes around with this same point of view you reject it on the basis of lack of proof. Hypocritical much?OK. give me their explination, their teachings. or better yet, since this is the internet... Post the Link of their teachings. You claim that there are people who have this knowledge... post em. I am not rejecting them. I am giving YOU the chance to spread your Faith to the Masses. Who was the first to contact them? How did he convince them of his faith?

Spread the experiences you gained from this interaction. Note I am not asking for scientific Proof. just your experiences. and remember, I still have my Faith. but I am keeping an open mind here.


Okay I said you basically needed faith to find the Raelians and yet you say you dont believe in them. And once again you say you need Faith to find god. So if you dont believe in the raelians even when all you have to do is have faith in them why is it that you can use that arguement for christianity?give me their teachings. give me their lessions, again I ask and again my hands are empty.


The reference to Raelians is just used to further the arguement. I have never tried to actually convert you this whole time only use them as an example. And you say christianity can give you all those things and yet the Raelians can give you the same thing. They can point to evolution to further their claims and point to the message sent to their leader. And yet when someone says all you have to do to find the aliens is to have faith you refuse because there is no proof like the stories you have listed. I really think the attitude you need faith to find god is just a bad way of jumping around the question when you run out of proof of god.
Edit:sorry about the bold I wasnt sure if my posts would stand out from the quotesbut you haven't given me what Christianity has... You haven't even promised me what Christianity gave me before I was baptised. even if this was a made up Religion... it should be easier then since you can tailor it and CHANGE it to suit your purposes. Christianity doesn't change. and yet, it still goes strong.

I guess there are billions of Gullible people in the world then. And the fact that those people are also Scientists and world leaders must be really comforting to you.

No one has commented on my post (#135) So i will post in again for those interested....

If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this perfect God created a perfect universe which was rendered imperfect by the perfect humans. (If that be the case) the ultimate source of imperfection is God...

Why wouldn't God just create those with freewill, whom He knew would eventually choose Him? This is where the traditional "hell doctrine" falls apart: If God is all-knowing and still created beings whom He would have to punish and in essence destroy for an eternity, why create them at all, unless God simply is evil? God would have to be evil and not truth; for truth is unchanging and eternal. How could a perfect God of truth unjustly create evil which must be destroyed? The creation of evil then would have come from Him? His fault, ultimately, if you believe traditional christian teachings.

The bible is supposedly God's perfect word (as taught by traditional christian doctrines). It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which He is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in His infinite wisdom, He has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the bible, as a means for avoiding the hell which He has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal His wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect men, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect men. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self-contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet, the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which He has equipped us. Surely, the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal His perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

One need look to no source other than the bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures His people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers, turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of His innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil King David for taking a census. It was the same Yahweh who allowed the humas to slaughter his Son because the perfect Yahweh had botched His own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

"A God who knows the future is powerless to change it."

In other words, God could not change the future from what He knows it to be. Otherwise, the outcome would be different than what He formerly knew it to be. Then, would He have really known the future the first go around? That still makes my mind twist thinking on that one...

But boards are good enough for communication and discussion which is the same in person as is over the net.
true, but for something as deep (in thougth) as Faith, I would rather your questions be answered by one who's calling it is to answer such questions.

You dont get medical advice from someone whom you don't know is a doctor, so why ask for Spiritual Advice from someone whom isn't versed in such matters?

true, but for something as deep (in thougth) as Faith, I would rather your questions be answered by one who's calling it is to answer such questions.

You dont get medical advice from someone whom you don't know is a doctor, so why ask for Spiritual Advice from someone whom isn't versed in such matters?

I ask for religious debate from those that are religious. It doesnt take a pastor to defend the faith does it? Like Paul says, "Give the reason for the hope you have."

I ask for religious debate from those that are religious. It doesnt take a pastor to defend the faith does it? Like Paul says, "Give the reason for the hope you have."note: Reason... not Proof. My reasons are mine, you have your reasons for doubt. but to baise your decision on my pathetic descriptions of my Faith (yes I admit my attempts are pathetic) doesn't do you justice.

If you really want a religious Debate, then go to a church and ask the Preacher.

note: Reason... not Proof. My reasons are mine, you have your reasons for doubt. but to baise your decision on my pathetic descriptions of my Faith (yes I admit my attempts are pathetic) doesn't do you justice.

If you really want a religious Debate, then go to a church and ask the Preacher.

Surely it doesnt take a preacher to have a religious debate. How do you expect to share your faith? If you witness you need more than faith, you need knowledge and you seem to be knowledgable enough to do so. I dont think it takes a pastor to be the spokesmen for religion...

Surely it doesnt take a preacher to have a religious debate. How do you expect to share your faith? If you witness you need more than faith, you need knowledge and you seem to be knowledgable enough to do so. I dont think it takes a pastor to be the spokesmen for religion...and I admit I am no Theologean. everyone asks for Proof. hard unbreakable by science proof. I can only say what I know and I will admit, Speculate on that which I don't. but to give answers worthy of some of these questions, needs more wisdom (and Patience) than I have.

How do you expect to share your faith?
Is that a requirement for being spirtual?

People seem to not like christians because 'they push their beliefs on everyone and are stubborn, blah blah' Where it seems in reality -- those who have a chip on their shoulders do more pushing than anyone else. Always quick to find a fault and act intolerant with a *nah nah look what I can rub in your face* attitude.

Believe what you believe how you believe it and live happily.

so you don't believe in any of the teachings of the Bible? not a one.
I believe that the bible is a book that uses made up stories to teach moral and social lessons.

why not... oh, I see... only the Christians are allow to have their beliefs and their Faith scrutinized...
No i believe every faith should have their teachings and ideals scrutinized its just that christianity tends to be one of the big three when it comes to religion.


OK. give me their explination, their teachings. or better yet, since this is the internet... Post the Link of their teachings. You claim that there are people who have this knowledge... post em. I am not rejecting them. I am giving YOU the chance to spread your Faith to the Masses. Who was the first to contact them? How did he convince them of his faith?

Spread the experiences you gained from this interaction. Note I am not asking for scientific Proof. just your experiences. and remember, I still have my Faith. but I am keeping an open mind here.


give me their teachings. give me their lessions, again I ask and again my hands are empty.
The facts about the raelian religion are irrelevant as I am using a fringe religion to prove my point. I could just as easily use Islam or Hinduism for this arguement but I have specifically chosen a religion which is regarded as with little credibility. What i am trying to gain from referencing the religion is the fact that even though it requires a leap of faith in order to gain the true knowledge of its god figures aka aliens yet you reject it because of a lack of proof. But when the topic of christianity comes up in order to know god you have to have faith in him and put your life in his hands not caring about proof.


but you haven't given me what Christianity has... You haven't even promised me what Christianity gave me before I was baptised. even if this was a made up Religion... it should be easier then since you can tailor it and CHANGE it to suit your purposes. Christianity doesn't change. and yet, it still goes strong.
Hmm this is interesting you say you put your faith in God and your life in his hands but in the end you go with christianity not because of this but what you get out of it. Well this certainly seems to make you have a stake in proving it is right.

I guess there are billions of Gullible people in the world then. And the fact that those people are also Scientists and world leaders must be really comforting to you.
But its the ignorance you promote by saying dont look for facts but have faith in the being that I am trying to prevent. Every religion affects the choices we make and how we treat other people. I think that tangible proof is a must if your going to follow a religion that tells you to act or think in a certain way. To put blind faith in a religion can cause things like recent terrorist events and christian crusades. If anything I am trying to stop ignorance and gullibility. I apologize if you think any of my arguements have been direct attacks against you. I have not intended to try to convert you or tell you that God does not exist. Merely that the idea of having faith can be a dangerous thing and should not be looked on as having such a positive conotation as it does today.

I believe that the bible is a book that uses made up stories to teach moral and social lessons.any of the moral and social Lessions you disagree with?

No i believe every faith should have their teachings and ideals scrutinized its just that christianity tends to be one of the big three when it comes to religion.I will agree that being the largest (including all denoms.) we are the biggest target.
The facts about the raelian religion are irrelevant as I am using a fringe religion to prove my point. I could just as easily use Islam or Hinduism for this arguement but I have specifically chosen a religion which is regarded as with little credibility. What i am trying to gain from referencing the religion is the fact that even though it requires a leap of faith in order to gain the true knowledge of its god figures aka aliens yet you reject it because of a lack of proof. But when the topic of christianity comes up in order to know god you have to have faith in him and put your life in his hands not caring about proof.but the one saftey net you have is that you can say 'its made up' because you made it up. and BTW. I never rejected your Aliens (nor any Aliens, I truly believe we are not alone) however, I'm still waiting for your arguments about your psudo religion... or are you giving up. comon... Convince me... I'm listening with an open mind. If you wish, try Hinduism then... or Islam... I'll listen to you Economic Associates

Hmm this is interesting you say you put your faith in God and your life in his hands but in the end you go with christianity not because of this but what you get out of it. Well this certainly seems to make you have a stake in proving it is right.well what I get out of it is knowing that i've made the attempt to share with another person. and yes, Heaven is a big reward to. :D
But its the ignorance you promote by saying dont look for facts but have faith in the being that I am trying to prevent. Every religion affects the choices we make and how we treat other people. I think that tangible proof is a must if your going to follow a religion that tells you to act or think in a certain way. To put blind faith in a religion can cause things like recent terrorist events and christian crusades. If anything I am trying to stop ignorance and gullibility. I apologize if you think any of my arguements have been direct attacks against you. I have not intended to try to convert you or tell you that God does not exist. Merely that the idea of having faith can be a dangerous thing and should not be looked on as having such a positive conotation as it does today.I have never said not to look for the facts. when did I Ever say not to look for the facts. I've said you cannot ask GOD to perform for you, but I never said not to search for him.
I've said you Need Faith to see God but I NEVER SAID Faith was the ONLY thing you need. The reason why Faith is so important when searching for God, is that in the search for Facts, for many, Faith has been lost. things are over anilysed and the message lost. You can over anylyse things to the point where the Sunrise becomes nothing more than the moment the rotation of the Earth positions our location on her surface to a point where the largest fusion reactor in our solar system can radiate bands of Radiation of various wavelenghts reflecting off of the dust particles in the atmosphere to create an optical effect to be captured by our optic nerves and transferred to our brains.

Religion has caused alot of Grief. yes I know that. but look at the horrors done without religion. The Atomic Bombs. Mines. WWI and WWII. Vietnam. Chemical and Biological Warfare.

right now, however, a situation at work has me rilled up (which accounts for my snippy previous post... for that I humbly apologize) so I really need to take a break before I say/type something I will definitly regret.

BTW... thanks for an interesting discussion that did not devolve into flames or flame baiting. If I did say or type anything offensive, It was not my intent and I again Humbly aplogize.

No harm done. I have enjoyed talking with you and I always enjoy a friendly debate. And I am in no way trying to convert you. I am simply using the other religions to further a point which is people use faith as a justification for christianity but when another religion comes around and uses that people want proof. The idea of believing something without any concrete proof is a dangerous thing to me and I really am against that type of thinking. However i would like to move on to your previous post. Why is it that you think in searching for god many have lost faith. I mean the only way one could possibly lose faith if they were searching for god is if they didnt find him.

You can over anylyse things to the point where the Sunrise becomes nothing more than the moment the rotation of the Earth positions our location on her surface to a point where the largest fusion reactor in our solar system can radiate bands of Radiation of various wavelenghts reflecting off of the dust particles in the atmosphere to create an optical effect to be captured by our optic nerves and transferred to our brains.
That's what it is :D

To me, that's all it needs to be. It is still a magnificent sight; I can appreciate the beauty from the perspective that it is just that, and not a work of some diety, just as I could look at a person and find them striking without thinking, "Wow, God did a good job on that one!". I don't see why religion is needed to appreciate the simple things; understanding them from a scientifical standpoint makes then no less valuable or beautiful.

On the question over analysing...

I was watching a TV debate on the nature of heaven. A leader of the Muslim Council of Great Britain and Cardinal Cormack Murphy o'Connor were arguing against a Atheist member of some secular group who argued that after death was nothing. Both religious leaders strongly denied this opinion insisting that to think of life ending as solely a biological process leading to simply the end of any existance was too 'bleak'. They argued that heaven existed on the basis that the alternative was too terrible to believe.

This worries me - a lot of things are not as we would want to believe or imagine but that doesnt stop the 'bleak' from being true sometimes.

On the question over analysing...

I was watching a TV debate on the nature of heaven. A leader of the Muslim Council of Great Britain and Cardinal Cormack Murphy o'Connor were arguing against a Atheist member of some secular group who argued that after death was nothing. Both religious leaders strongly denied this opinion insisting that to think of life ending as solely a biological process leading to simply the end of any existance was too 'bleak'. They argued that heaven existed on the basis that the alternative was too terrible to believe.

This worries me - a lot of things are not as we would want to believe or imagine but that doesnt stop the 'bleak' from being true sometimes.

Thats a good point as well.(on a side note- i have read a few books by murphy-o'connor, lets just say he can be quite creative in his interpretations ;) )

God, just has this random place of torture, fire, the worst physical pain possible. Everything bad immaginable. And he sends you there, when you sin, when you go against god, when you go against the religion.
....
But he still loves you.

God, just has this random place of torture, fire, the worst physical pain possible. Everything bad immaginable. And he sends you there, when you sin, when you go against god, when you go against the religion.
....
But he still loves you.
Yup and he is all powerfull ... but still cant manage to save you or to give you proof in a way that you can understand (genaric you)

Yup and he is all powerfull ... but still cant manage to save you or to give you proof in a way that you can understand (genaric you)

exactly...god is all powerful, yet doesnt lift a finger...go figure...

exactly...god is all powerful, yet doesnt lift a finger...go figure...


See.. on the 8th day... god invented the couch, and daytime television.

I don't understand why you can use "its just the O.T., it's a different side of God"

God isn't allowed to change his mind (he's omniscient and omnipotent, remember? He's frozen with the knowledge of what he WILL do) and even if he could change his mind, I don't believe that such a being is worthy of worship if he goes on a temper-tantrum and starts slaughtering innocents willy-nilly.

Troon has a very good point here. It seems sometimes that there are 2 different Gods from the Old Translation to the New translation. But the fact of the matter is that Jesus came. He is a loving God, who wants all of you to be his... He did for you so you could have eternal life. If that's not a loving God, I don't know what is...

Troon has a very good point here. It seems sometimes that there are 2 different Gods from the Old Translation to the New translation. But the fact of the matter is that Jesus came. He is a loving God, who wants all of you to be his... He did for you so you could have eternal life. If that's not a loving God, I don't know what is...

yet before the new testament he killed countless numbers of men, women, and children, even animals...then he gives us jesus, who was killed also. does anyone else see a "killing" theme here??? a loving god would not need to use cruel means to get his loving point across...(which is i am god, i love you, now sacrifice an animal to me, wait, ill sacrifice my son, now just believe in me and my book with no proof and read my words full of symbols and riddles and i will save your soul from eternal punishment, which you are headed unless you turn to me....

Troon has a very good point here. It seems sometimes that there are 2 different Gods from the Old Translation to the New translation. But the fact of the matter is that Jesus came. He is a loving God, who wants all of you to be his... He did for you so you could have eternal life. If that's not a loving God, I don't know what is...

You know what else a loving god would do stop a genocide here end world hunger there but instead all we get is the virgin mary on a tortia

Perfect reason to be an atheist. If there really is a god, he's a total dick. It's much more comforting to believe that all that shit happens by accident than to believe there's an all powerful being who is psychotic enough to do all that shit.

You know what else a loving god would do stop a genocide here end world hunger there but instead all we get is the virgin mary on a tortia
Dont forget jeasus on grill cheese sandwitch

You know what else a loving god would do stop a genocide here end world hunger there but instead all we get is the virgin mary on a tortia
and if he did End Genocide... World Hunger... Stopped all wars. Gave Peace throught out the world... Personally Punnished all Sinners as soon as the Sin was committed, do you know what you would call him then?







A Dictator. a Tyrant who doesn't allow people the Freedom of Choice. Someone who treats man like his personal pets and playthings. and nothing would really change.

The Faithful would be called @$$-Kissers. and alot would flock to Him not out of love but because they feel they "Had" to. thus you still will have your Charlatans and "false Prophet."

So which would you rather have, a God who seems to do nothing/does things in such a way where there is no concrete evidence of his exsistance... or a God that will treat you like a 1 yr old child?


Now, if something strange, unusual or just plain coincidental happens, the Faithful can proclaim it an act of God, while the sckeptics can say "Nah, it was only <insert scientific explination for event>" and both can feel they're right.

and if he did End Genocide... World Hunger... Stopped all wars. Gave Peace throught out the world... Personally Punnished all Sinners as soon as the Sin was committed, do you know what you would call him then?






A Dictator. a Tyrant who doesn't allow people the Freedom of Choice. Someone who treats man like his personal pets and playthings. and nothing would really change.

The Faithful would be called @$$-Kissers. and alot would flock to Him not out of love but because they feel they "Had" to. thus you still will have your Charlatans and "false Prophet."

So which would you rather have, a God who seems to do nothing/does things in such a way where there is no concrete evidence of his exsistance... or a God that will treat you like a 1 yr old child?


Now, if something strange, unusual or just plain coincidental happens, the Faithful can proclaim it an act of God, while the sckeptics can say "Nah, it was only <insert scientific explination for event>" and both can feel they're right.

Freedom of choice != to cosequence
You can have freedom of choice without consequences ... it is still your decision (and frankly probably would get a more realistic idea of what people would choose without god imposing himself on them)

Freedom of choice != to cosequence
You can have freedom of choice without consequences ... it is still your decision (and frankly probably would get a more realistic idea of what people would choose without god imposing himself on them)Not according to alot of people here... read the posts about how Omnicence and Omnipotence does not mean Free Choice. If God takes an active hand in things, you can bet there will be no Free Choice. After all, if you knew the moment you think of committing a crime, God moves to punnish you...

You know what else a loving god would do stop a genocideA here end world hunger B there but instead all we get is the virgin mary on a tortia A = Here (s)he indicates it's going on and instead of sending another country to trounce on them, he stops it himself. as for the Choice... It had to take the Americans to Choose a President willing to lay it all on the line to do the job.

B = that instead of having his Church and other Groups go out and work, (S)he wants God to again, correct it. The choice here is do you want to help... you can.

exactly...god is all powerful, yet doesnt lift a finger...go figure...again a call for Direct action as with...

Yup and he is all powerfull ... but still cant manage to save you or to give you proof in a way that you can understand (genaric you) if he give difinitive proof... you will have NO CHOICE but to believe. but mysterious querks and coincidences can leave people to choose to believe it was a miracle or to choose to ignore it. again a choice.

as for the quotes about Free Choice vs. Gods Omnipotience and Omniscience... I'll find and post those quotes that appears here.

My, this thread is refreshing, if extreme. I am the least christian person you will ever meet so I find this.....entertaining. Its nice to see some one educated and thinking, but I dont think I would have gone so extreme. Thumbs up for still rockin neways tho!

If God takes an active hand in things, you can bet there will be no Free Choice. After all, if you knew the moment you think of committing a crime, God moves to punnish you...

We can still have free choice with god taking an active part. Did god not walk with adam and eve? did they not have free choice? he could prevent things from happening, but that does not mean it would eleminate choice.

if he give difinitive proof... you will have NO CHOICE but to believe. but mysterious querks and coincidences can leave people to choose to believe it was a miracle or to choose to ignore it. again a choice.

as for the quotes about Free Choice vs. Gods Omnipotience and Omniscience... I'll find and post those quotes that appears here.

maybe i have missed something with god and his relationship to man, but why do we have to be unsure of his existance? if we have definitive proof, that would eleminate confusion and we would actually know that god is real. instead we are lost like chickens with no heads and expected to see clearly. excuse me but that is horrible joke from god. the absolute least i would expect from god is for him to tell me he exists! why shouldnt he want me to know? whats so important with believing without proof? is there a special reason or is this some kind of game? Like the movie Constatine, is this just a game between god and satan to see who gets more people? how are we supposed to know uless he tells us? if he gave us proof, we would beleive, but that doesnt mean we would follow him. satan and the demons beleive but dont follow him; so how am i to follow him and i dont even know he exists!

Found those quotes...

We do not have FREE WILL if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.

I understand your point but you've not addressed mine, The point is that The very concept of our Free will goes against the Christian concept of god, while I personally would like to beleive that we do have free will, there is evidence to suggest that The way we are and think is determined through conditioning and a million other factors which we can not controle, and if god knows how we are going to be before we even exist, then how can we break away from what God has always known? If we can't then we have no free will, and if we can, then god is not truly Omniscient, so why call him god?



Two who argue about free will vs Omnipotence and Omniscence... I however believe that God while being Both, allows free will by not giving concrete proof.

We can still have free choice with god taking an active part. Did god not walk with adam and eve? did they not have free choice? he could prevent things from happening, but that does not mean it would eleminate choice. remember... when God walked with Adam and Eve... man had not taken of the Fruit of Knowledge. thus I can be said that Man Trusted God completly and (some would say) mindlessly.

then the Serpent gave them their first Choice... and it was to either continue Obeying God or to Disobey Him... we know their choice.

Now God could've struck Man down and started over... He could've re-created Man with a greater sense of Loyalty... but he didn't. Meaning he loved his creation so much that he allowed it to continue even tho it was now corrupted.

and thus... Man now had to live with the choices he makes... for good or ill.


maybe i have missed something with god and his relationship to man, but why do we have to be unsure of his existance? if we have definitive proof, that would eleminate confusion and we would actually know that god is real. instead we are lost like chickens with no heads and expected to see clearly. excuse me but that is horrible joke from god. the absolute least i would expect from god is for him to tell me he exists! why shouldnt he want me to know? whats so important with believing without proof? is there a special reason or is this some kind of game? Like the movie Constatine, is this just a game between god and satan to see who gets more people? how are we supposed to know uless he tells us? if he gave us proof, we would beleive, but that doesnt mean we would follow him. satan and the demons beleive but dont follow him; so how am i to follow him and i dont even know he exists!That's the thing.
Can you Choose to believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun in this Day and Age?
Can you Choose to hold the Faith that the Moon is made of Green Cheese?
Can you Choose to claim that 1+1 = 34?
can you choose to do that and not have bad and nasty things done to you?

If God gave proof... real definitive proof that cannot be debunked by science.
what choice would man have but to believe in God.
Would people love Him for being Him and what He's done in the past? or would they suck up to Him because they Fear what He will do in the future more?

Would you rather have people Love you or Fear you?

Edit... missed this in your post...

God does talk to you. the thing is, how to listen. He may introduce you to people or take you to places you never dreamed of going. a chance encounter might be arrainged by Him. or an opportunity placed in your path.

remember... when God walked with Adam and Eve... man had not taken of the Fruit of Knowledge. thus I can be said that Man Trusted God completly and (some would say) mindlessly.

then the Serpent gave them their first Choice... and it was to either continue Obeying God or to Disobey Him... we know their choice.

Now God could've struck Man down and started over... He could've re-created Man with a greater sense of Loyalty... but he didn't. Meaning he loved his creation so much that he allowed it to continue even tho it was now corrupted.

and thus... Man now had to live with the choices he makes... for good or ill.


what was man doing before it sinned? it was living and breathing, enjoying nature and living together. they had lives, they had choices.


If God gave proof... real definitive proof that cannot be debunked by science.
what choice would man have but to believe in God.
Would people love Him for being Him and what He's done in the past? or would they suck up to Him because they Fear what He will do in the future more?

Would you rather have people Love you or Fear you?

why should god play with our minds? why shouldnt he want us to believe in him? he should focus on us following him instead of just believing he exists. if god cant show me he exists that is a real problem and utter failure on gods part. the bible says we are to be in fear of god. i would love god if he wasnt such a jerk. and thats a nice term...

why should god play with our minds? why shouldnt he want us to believe in him? he should focus on us following him instead of just believing he exists. if god cant show me he exists that is a real problem and utter failure on gods part. the bible says we are to be in fear of god. i would love god if he wasnt such a jerk. and thats a nice term...but if he gave Proof... what other choice would there be but to worship Him...

and your call about God Cannot show you proof... Unfortunatly, I cannot go there because he showed his proof to me. and to start that argument again would only come full circle... again.

and any strife you have towards God is between Him and you... so again I cannot and will not go there.

but if he gave Proof... what other choice would there be but to worship Him...

how about the choice to not worship him?

how about the choice to not worship him?
back to my other questions...
if God proved himself to be God...why won't you worship him... since in all versions of his Word, there is a price to be paid for not Believing in Him.

Again, would you believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth?
Would you preach the fact that the Earth is flatter than a pancake?

and another point to think about...

If you think those pushy, obnoxious Bible Thumpers are bad now... how much worse would they be if they were proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they were right?

back to my other questions...
if God proved himself to be God...why won't you worship him... since in all versions of his Word, there is a price to be paid for not Believing in Him.


Because not everyone bows before tyrants.

Because not everyone bows before tyrants.Why not... He is GOD... the All Powerful...

by Showing himself... he is in effect forcing you to worship him. thus your adoration may not be borne of Love but of Fear.

Which may be why he won't force his solutions on the worlds problems, but perhaps do things in ways that cast some doubt as to who is doing them.

back to my other questions...
if God proved himself to be God...why won't you worship him... since in all versions of his Word, there is a price to be paid for not Believing in Him.

Again, would you believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth?
Would you preach the fact that the Earth is flatter than a pancake?

and another point to think about...

If you think those pushy, obnoxious Bible Thumpers are bad now... how much worse would they be if they were proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they were right?

why does satan not worship god? i dont know about anyone else, but i would in fact worship god if i knew he exists for the sake of the argument. i cant speak for anyone else. it would be up to them to make a choice which is by god given right theres to take.

Why not... He is GOD... the All Powerful...

by Showing himself... he is in effect forcing you to worship him. thus your adoration may not be borne of Love but of Fear.

Which may be why he won't force his solutions on the worlds problems, but perhaps do things in ways that cast some doubt as to who is doing them.

god isnt doing anything at all. god could make the world better without causing millions to die in wars. the thing is he is casting too much doubt...

Why not... He is GOD... the All Powerful...

by Showing himself... he is in effect forcing you to worship him. thus your adoration may not be borne of Love but of Fear.

Which may be why he won't force his solutions on the worlds problems, but perhaps do things in ways that cast some doubt as to who is doing them.

I dunno, maybe because I'm the kind of guy who'd flip the NAZIs off while they pointed their guns at me?

By showing himself, he'd force me to start trying to figure out how to kill him for all the evil he's done and intends to do.

Hell, my dad was trained by my grandpa to "Fight Satan" in physical combat. My family doesn't get on their knees around non-existant supernatural beings, they get their guns.

why does satan not worship god?Because Satan sought to replace God with himself. to be Higher than God.

i dont know about anyone else, but i would in fact worship god if i knew he exists for the sake of the argument. i cant speak for anyone else. it would be up to them to make a choice which is by god given right theres to take.but by appearing, you actually take that choice away. How can you deny God's exsistance when he is standing right there?

but by appearing, you actually take that choice away. How can you deny God's exsistance when he is standing right there?

you wouldnt deny gods existance, you would just chose to follow him or not. gods existance would be known. therefore, everyone could make the decision to follow him or not. there would be no more guessing if god exists, no more guessing to which religion is right. we would have proof of god. now we can finally make the decision to obey him or not.

Because Satan sought to replace God with himself. to be Higher than God.

satan acted on him own will. he knew god existed, yet still had free choice and was not forced to worship. thats the point, if we knew god exists, it would not bound us to worship, it would only let us know he was real.

you wouldnt deny gods existance, you would just chose to follow him or not. gods existance would be known. therefore, everyone could make the decision to follow him or not. there would be no more guessing if god exists, no more guessing to which religion is right. we would have proof of god. now we can finally make the decision to obey him or not.so... what's the differance if his Apperance or lack of it won't change a thing... you'll still have people not believing in Him and Following Him. However, now, you have people holding Faith in Him, having their Faith tested and thus rewarded.

If you admit that the Appearance of God won't change a thing then there should only be one time he should appear... and that is on Judgement Day.

then you can stand before God and try to tell him that in actuallity you were going to follow him if he showed himself...

I think you can guess what he'll say...

so... what's the differance if his Apperance or lack of it won't change a thing... you'll still have people not believing in Him and Following Him. However, now, you have people holding Faith in Him, having their Faith tested and thus rewarded.

If you admit that the Appearance of God won't change a thing then there should only be one time he should appear... and that is on Judgement Day.

then you can stand before God and try to tell him that in actuallity you were going to follow him if he showed himself...

I think you can guess what he'll say...

it would change something. doubt. millions dont believe because they dont think a god exists. that would change. now thier doubts are gone and can make the desicion to listen to god or not.

it would change something. doubt. millions dont believe because they dont think a god exists. that would change. now thier doubts are gone and can make the desicion to listen to god or not.
But you just said it won't

can you honestly say that if God were to sit down next to you, you would say Sorry while I do believe you are God... The MOST POWERFUL BEING who created the Universe.

I won't worship you?

if you can say that. Again, what difference would it make... Nothing.

But you just said it won't

can you honestly say that if God were to sit down next to you, you would say Sorry while I do believe you are God... The MOST POWERFUL BEING who created the Universe.

I won't worship you?

if you can say that. Again, what difference would it make... Nothing.


It won't change anything for people who think the Bible is an evil pile of filth, but it would change things for people who're crazy enough to think it isn't, but are still sane enough not to worship the deity it suggests.

It won't change anything for people who think the Bible is an evil pile of filth, but it would change things for people who're crazy enough to think it isn't, but are still sane enough not to worship the deity it suggests.and He did so in the past... it's accounted for in the Bible... People, as you say, call it filth and don't believe... so he appears... then what. 40yrs later... people again discount the proof... "oh, that is just Digital editing"... "what a fake tape"... "awww...you know all the poisions they were eating/drinking/breathing... must be a drug induced image" again, nothing would change...

Infact, Micheal Moores Grandson would probably make a "documentary" on how God's appearance was staged by then Fake President Bush to block the Homosexual rights bill or some such...

again. there would be no change.

Been fun guys, but my Cold is staging a CounterAssault so I need to bring up the OJ bombs and the Vitamine soldiers to stave of the attack.

and He did so in the past... it's accounted for in the Bible... People, as you say, call it filth and don't believe... so he appears... then what. 40yrs later... people again discount the proof... "oh, that is just Digital editing"... "what a fake tape"... "awww...you know all the poisions they were eating/drinking/breathing... must be a drug induced image" again, nothing would change...

Infact, Micheal Moores Grandson would probably make a "documentary" on how God's appearance was staged by then Fake President Bush to block the Homosexual rights bill or some such...

again. there would be no change.

Been fun guys, but my Cold is staging a CounterAssault so I need to bring up the OJ bombs and the Vitamine soldiers to stave of the attack.

why only appear once, why not appear to everyone personally?

and He did so in the past... it's accounted for in the Bible... People, as you say, call it filth and don't believe... so he appears... then what. 40yrs later... people again discount the proof... "oh, that is just Digital editing"... "what a fake tape"... "awww...you know all the poisions they were eating/drinking/breathing... must be a drug induced image" again, nothing would change...

Infact, Micheal Moores Grandson would probably make a "documentary" on how God's appearance was staged by then Fake President Bush to block the Homosexual rights bill or some such...

again. there would be no change.

Been fun guys, but my Cold is staging a CounterAssault so I need to bring up the OJ bombs and the Vitamine soldiers to stave of the attack.

What you're saying is that God is a lazy-ass bastard who can't get off his duff despite being infinately able to save souls.

Whee.

What you're saying is that God is a lazy-ass bastard who can't get off his duff despite being infinately able to save souls.

Whee.

seems like that is exactly what god is doing...and with that, i shall go to sleep...

What you're saying is that God is a lazy-ass bastard who can't get off his duff despite being infinately able to save souls.

Whee.
No.. what Nekone is saying (to me anyway) is that no matter what Proof God provides, man in his pride and belief in Science will disprove and thus not believe anyway.

there will not be any Infinatly saved souls because Man, nowdays, Chooses to be Blind. to hold on to their vainity as being the top form of life on this planet they will make up whatever reason or exscuse to disprove any Higher being.

To escape the Responsibility of their actions and choices they will choose to not accept any athority other than their own. thus God can Come down here and perform any and all miracles demanded of Him and mankind will still not believe.

the fact that you haven't denied this is proof that even you two would not believe Him to be God and wouldn't Follow and Worship Him.

Thus God is not being Lazy, it's Man that is Blind.

No.. what Nekone is saying (to me anyway) is that no matter what Proof God provides, man in his pride and belief in Science will disprove and thus not believe anyway.


Belief in science?

Are you saying chemistry isn't real?


there will not be any Infinatly saved souls because Man, nowdays, Chooses to be Blind.


Did Vishnu tell you this?


to hold on to their vainity as being the top form of life on this planet they will make up whatever reason or exscuse to disprove any Higher being.


HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

Dude.

Anyone who actually understands evolution knows that there's no such thing as a higher organism. That BS is a religious notion. Ever heard of the Great Chain of Being?


To escape the Responsibility of their actions and choices they will choose to not accept any athority other than their own.


Dude. We have prisons and we kill people who act against us. Plenty of responsibility.


thus God can Come down here and perform any and all miracles demanded of Him and mankind will still not believe.


So, you're saying that he can't save ONE more soul? Ever?

What a piss-poor god you have. I betcha Zeus could at least get one.


the fact that you haven't denied this is proof that even you two would not believe Him to be God and wouldn't Follow and Worship Him.


If a supernatural being presented itself, sure I'd believe it existed. Show me a damned unicorn already. I'll clap for tinkerbell, too. Clap clap.


Thus God is not being Lazy, it's Man that is Blind.

So, wait. If Vishnu showed up and bitch-slapped you... you wouldn't believe it existed? I mean, I can understand not worshipping it, I wouldn't either... but a Vishnan bitch slap is hard to ignore.

Show me some bloody evidence. Prove its real. Then we can start figuring out how to kick its ass for being an evil prick.

Belief in science?
Are you saying chemistry isn't real?
Did Vishnu tell you this?
HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!
Dude.
Anyone who actually understands evolution knows that there's no such thing as a higher organism. That BS is a religious notion. Ever heard of the Great Chain of Being?
Dude. We have prisons and we kill people who act against us. Plenty of responsibility.
So, you're saying that he can't save ONE more soul? Ever?
What a piss-poor god you have. I betcha Zeus could at least get one.
If a supernatural being presented itself, sure I'd believe it existed. Show me a damned unicorn already. I'll clap for tinkerbell, too. Clap clap.
So, wait. If Vishnu showed up and bitch-slapped you... you wouldn't believe it existed? I mean, I can understand not worshipping it, I wouldn't either... but a Vishnan bitch slap is hard to ignore.
Show me some bloody evidence. Prove its real. Then we can start figuring out how to kick its ass for being an evil prick.
ohhh... nice and Toasty... Good Flame :D

Well, I -am- the flame dancer.

But seriously.

The concepts (Whether yours, or wholly intended to be Nekone's) you present are a series of groundless arguments, illogical statements, and a falsehood or two.

Well, I -am- the flame dancer.

But seriously.

The concepts (Whether yours, or wholly intended to be Nekone's) you present are a series of groundless arguments, illogical statements, and a falsehood or two.
and some of your statements prove mine also. :D

I'd love to have a shrink examine God. He's apparently a sadistic psychopath.
I don't care what excuses he gives for all those mass slaughters, he apparently needs to be locked up someplace for the criminally insane.

and some of your statements prove mine also. :D

My statements don't really work with your statements.

I assure you, some people would follow a deity as soon as it showed itself.

Most people, when presented directly with it, would believe it existed.

That doesn't mean they'd follow it, but belief and servitude aren't the same.

My statements don't really work with your statements.

I assure you, some people would follow a deity as soon as it showed itself.

Most people, when presented directly with it, would believe it existed.

That doesn't mean they'd follow it, but belief and servitude aren't the same.but God wants both our Obediance and Belief... so... again appearing does not make a difference. He did wonderous things in the past, but people laugh it off as fables. so he appears today... as Nekone states, in 40+ yrs, that too will be laughted off. for the eye witnesses will be dead or so old that they will be thought insane...

as to my claims about your statements...


No.. what Nekone is saying (to me anyway) is that no matter what Proof God provides, man in his pride and belief in Science will disprove and thus not believe anyway.
Belief in science?

Are you saying chemistry isn't real?

now, the fact is majority of the people without the faith (in Religion in general) believe if science can prove it then it's not devine in nature. Sound Familliar... Moses Predicted the Plagues and did Miracles for the Pharoah... but since his 'wise men' could explain it away, the Pharoah didn't give Moses nor God any credit... so each Plague got worse, untill Passover.



to hold on to their vainity as being the top form of life on this planet they will make up whatever reason or exscuse to disprove any Higher being.

Anyone who actually understands evolution knows that there's no such thing as a higher organism. That BS is a religious notion. Ever heard of the Great Chain of Being?
Proves my point... You believe that you are the Top of the Chain of Being... so therefore, you refuse to believe in the possibility of an link above us.


the fact that you haven't denied this is proof that even you two would not believe Him to be God and wouldn't Follow and Worship Him.

If a supernatural being presented itself, sure I'd believe it existed. Show me a damned unicorn already. I'll clap for tinkerbell, too. Clap clap.

as you said earlier, Knowledge of exsistance is not Worship and Obediance. God doesn't want aknowledgement of his exsistance, but Aknowledgment of our Faith and Obediance.


and now for the "glad I didn't call you on that bet" Section.


So, you're saying that he can't save ONE more soul? Ever?
What a piss-poor god you have. I betcha Zeus could at least get one.

I challenge Zeus to do that.... Oh wait, his mythos has him visiting Earth to impregnate lots of women... and their Religion is... Guess what??? DEAD! so therefore, you loose that Bet. ;)

God is the "undefined" of Science, what never is destroyed and always changes (Fire, light, energy, etc.). God didn't create the universe with good, sin, etc. It just happens to be the way God is moving and everything around us, even ourselves, is a reaction to that movement. As we have the power of choice, good is defined as what happens when we "go with the flow" or recognize how God is moving the world. Sin, evil, etc. is simply the reaction of not "going with the flow". There for, God is not good or evil, but the embodiment of both, just as we are. God finds evil and gives it back, God finds good and still gives it back. What you do affects those around you, be they your enemy or friend.

but God wants both our Obediance and Belief... so... again appearing does not make a difference. He did wonderous things in the past, but people laugh it off as fables. so he appears today... as Nekone states, in 40+ yrs, that too will be laughted off. for the eye witnesses will be dead or so old that they will be thought insane...

as to my claims about your statements...


He can do it for every one when they hit puberty. Every single person on the planet. He's infinite, no?



now, the fact is majority of the people without the faith (in Religion in general) believe if science can prove it then it's not devine in nature. Sound Familliar... Moses Predicted the Plagues and did Miracles for the Pharoah... but since his 'wise men' could explain it away, the Pharoah didn't give Moses nor God any credit... so each Plague got worse, untill Passover.


Actually, there's no reason to believe that magic wouldn't be a scientific field all its own. It certainly does tend to behave to certain laws based on its source.


Proves my point... You believe that you are the Top of the Chain of Being... so therefore, you refuse to believe in the possibility of an link above us.



Wow. Do you like, flunk aptitude tests?

Dude. The Great Chain of Being is a Christian concept thought up in the middle ages. I don't believe I'm any better than your average bacteria. I just like myself better than I do them.



as you said earlier, Knowledge of exsistance is not Worship and Obediance. God doesn't want aknowledgement of his exsistance, but Aknowledgment of our Faith and Obediance.



Right. So blind faith and slavery is all he cares about.

Are you saying that, if Jesus showed up, and your faith became knowledge, you'd suddenly be unsaved?



and now for the "glad I didn't call you on that bet" Section.


I challenge Zeus to do that.... Oh wait, his mythos has him visiting Earth to impregnate lots of women... and their Religion is... Guess what??? DEAD! so therefore, you loose that Bet. ;)

You do know that Paganism is thriving right now, right?

Oops.

I'd love to have a shrink examine God. He's apparently a sadistic psychopath.
I don't care what excuses he gives for all those mass slaughters, he apparently needs to be locked up someplace for the criminally insane.

heh, thats not a bad idea ;) if a shrink examined god he would declare god mentally disturbed.

"God" slaughtered innocent babies because of Pharaoh's stubbornness: "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.” (Exod. 12:29)

"God" had babies dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped open: "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"God" wanted children to be murdered as human sacrifices: "I let them become defiled through their gifts - the sacrifice of every firstborn - that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.” (Ezek. 20:26)

"God" threatened to have innocent children be devoured by wild animals: “I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.” (Lev. 26:22)

"God" threatened to have children cannibalized: "If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.” (Lev. 26:27-29)

"God" ordered the genocide of women, children and babies: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”” (1 Sam. 15:2-3)

"God" aborted fetuses and murdered children in answer to the prophet Hosea's prayer: "Give them, O Lord – what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry .... Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring." (Hosea 9:14-16)

"God" murdered a baby because of David's adultery: “Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." (2 Sam. 12:13-14)

"God" ordered people to kill their brothers, friends and neighbors: “Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'" (Exod. 32:27)

People who accuse me of taking these Bible verses out of context, must state the context which justifies "God" to slaughter a multitude of innocent babies and children.

- www.near-death.com

And you expected what from a tribal war god created by the priests for the purpose of establishing power over the populace, not to mention, job security?

if he give difinitive proof... you will have NO CHOICE but to believe. but mysterious querks and coincidences can leave people to choose to believe it was a miracle or to choose to ignore it. again a choice.

as for the quotes about Free Choice vs. Gods Omnipotience and Omniscience... I'll find and post those quotes that appears here.
No he would give me the ability to make an informed decision and I am not saying overwhelming proof I want some proof that appeals to me some that I can understand and relate with

He built me so I question EVERYTHING if that sadistic bastard then does not give me some clear cut proof to satisfy the needs he gave me I choose not to follow such a being

No he would give me the ability to make an informed decision and I am not saying overwhelming proof I want some proof that appeals to me some that I can understand and relate with

He built me so I question EVERYTHING if that sadistic bastard then does not give me some clear cut proof to satisfy the needs he gave me I choose not to follow such a being
That's like saying he built a puzzle deliberately with no clues and no way to solve it. It's not an accurate analogy of the literalist-religious person's circumstance.

Just because "God" built mankind doesn't mean he owes us anything.

No.. what Nekone is saying (to me anyway) is that no matter what Proof God provides, man in his pride and belief in Science will disprove and thus not believe anyway.

there will not be any Infinatly saved souls because Man, nowdays, Chooses to be Blind. to hold on to their vainity as being the top form of life on this planet they will make up whatever reason or exscuse to disprove any Higher being.

To escape the Responsibility of their actions and choices they will choose to not accept any athority other than their own. thus God can Come down here and perform any and all miracles demanded of Him and mankind will still not believe.

the fact that you haven't denied this is proof that even you two would not believe Him to be God and wouldn't Follow and Worship Him.

Thus God is not being Lazy, it's Man that is Blind.
Oh, dont' blame science for that, that has nothing to do with science. That is human nature.

What people don't seem to understand about Christianity is that believing in God is not a criteria for being saved, but a method.

I would sit quiet when some unperfect creatures try to judge something perfect creature by just what reads in book written by humans.

That's like saying he built a puzzle deliberately with no clues and no way to solve it. It's not an accurate analogy of the literalist-religious person's circumstance.

Just because "God" built mankind doesn't mean he owes us anything.
Agreed that he does not nessisarily owe us anything. But as such does not mean we owe him anything as well

And didnt He sacrifice His own son to rescue us? So I would guess He if He is there loves us pretty much.

And didnt He sacrifice His own son to rescue us? So I would guess He if He is there loves us pretty much.
Not nessisarily (depends on if you believe in that act) and his one son vs the thousands of people (millions maybe) sacraficed for our god :rolleyes: he hardly seems to be giving a fair return

Besides there was no reason for him (if jesus was true) to sacrafice him ... god being omni potent really should have been able to find a better way then bloodshed

If Jesus was right?How? I have always saw that sacrifice as payment for that what happened in Eden. And now as this has been done, you can get to the Heaven again. And isnt those other people pagans and what else by the Book and we need to be tested in our faith and all. Just some pickings what I have picked up in my religion classes.

Agreed that he does not nessisarily owe us anything. But as such does not mean we owe him anything as well
Well, funny thing about people, they are capable of feeling debt and gratitude when they get something (like life, and forgiveness) even if only imagined. In that case, although the gift is imagined, the debt is real.

Well, funny thing about people, they are capable of feeling debt and gratitude when they get something (like life, and forgiveness) even if only imagined. In that case, although the gift is imagined, the debt is real.
Very true :p (dont know how to argue with this one ... not sure I want to lol)

If Jesus was right?How? I have always saw that sacrifice as payment for that what happened in Eden. And now as this has been done, you can get to the Heaven again. And isnt those other people pagans and what else by the Book and we need to be tested in our faith and all. Just some pickings what I have picked up in my religion classes.
um people before Jesus came about could get into heaven so whats the whole "get into heaven again" even if jesus never was we still would be able to

If Jesus was right?How? I have always saw that sacrifice as payment for that what happened in Eden. And now as this has been done, you can get to the Heaven again. And isnt those other people pagans and what else by the Book and we need to be tested in our faith and all. Just some pickings what I have picked up in my religion classes.
I've seen this twice now, the idea that before Christ people could not get into Heaven. Is this a common conception?

I've seen this twice now, the idea that before Christ people could not get into Heaven. Is this a common conception?
Lol we think alike :fluffle:

I've seen this twice now, the idea that before Christ people could not get into Heaven. Is this a common conception?No... before Jesus, people had to do alot to gain forgiveness. they had to do alot of Rituals, Burt offerings (and not just any offerings but the BEST offerings.) Fasting, alot of Rituals that nowdays seem fanatical. But with the Blood of Jesus, all that is no longer Necessary.

Which is good cus alters tend to wreak havock with the fire code.

Oh, dont' blame science for that, that has nothing to do with science. That is human nature.Not blaming Science, and I agree it's human nature. Science explains the How... but people tend to then think that there is no Who/What because we know the How

What people don't seem to understand about Christianity is that believing in God is not a criteria for being saved, but a method.How can you be saved if you do not believe in God?

Not blaming Science, and I agree it's human nature. Science explains the How... but people tend to then think that there is no Who/What because we know the How

How can you be saved if you do not believe in God?
He can decide so (alternitive method)

Old school sacrafice (old not nessisary valid method) there are all kinds of ways in the past and possibly in the future

He can decide so (alternitive method)

Old school sacrafice (old not nessisary valid method) there are all kinds of ways in the past and possibly in the futureerr... but doesn't that still require some form of belief?

old school sacrifice means you are offering burnt gifts to someone/something...

if you believe you are saved... who is doing the saving?

Isn't the concept of an Afterlife baised on Religion?

No... before Jesus, people had to do alot to gain forgiveness. they had to do alot of Rituals, Burt offerings (and not just any offerings but the BEST offerings.) Fasting, alot of Rituals that nowdays seem fanatical. But with the Blood of Jesus, all that is no longer Necessary.

Which is good cus alters tend to wreak havock with the fire code.
Golly, poor Burt. Sacrifices were not generally for forgiveness, but rather for direction from the gods. If the proposed action or intention was favourable, the gods would give a sign in the burning. It's a form of divination.

How can you be saved if you do not believe in God?
Just so. "How." Not a requirement, but a method.

I've seen this twice now, the idea that before Christ people could not get into Heaven. Is this a common conception?

it is common. actually the old testament never says we go to heaven when we die. we go to sheol. everyone when they die goes to sheol. there is no true heaven or hell. plus sheol never has a bright look, it is always grim and dark. looking at second temple judaism literature, the heaven and hell doctrine came in after the babylonian captivity and greek influence. its actually quite interesting...

Isn't the concept of an Afterlife baised on Religion?

i still think that if god wanted a perfect place he would have created us in heaven and not on earth. why is there an afterlife, why did god make us so that we will die then go to heaven? why didnt he just make us in heaven, that way there will be no pain, suffering, ect? god gave us our minds to search for the truth so he should know that for some people it will take more than a "warm feeling" to make someone believe.

------
Romans 9:10-22

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls–she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory–

------
humans trying to understand God, his nature, what he wants, or why he wants anything the way he does is as ridiculous as a mouse looking at human societies and attempting to drive a car. Christianity comes through a sincere faith, a true desire for God to control your life, for you to work completely for his plan, NOT for you to fit God into what you believe is best for your life.

check out Blaise Pascal's Pensees, its a quality read.

i still think that if god wanted a perfect place he would have created us in heaven and not on earth.....it will take more than a "warm feeling" to make someone believe.

In Genesis it says that the world was perfect but we were created with choice. When Eve took the fruit that the viper offered and Adam followed along with her, they made the choice and disobeyed God. After that the world was no longer perfect. Heaven is perfect so the choice we make on earth is whether we are willing to live the after life in Wonderfull perfection, or, Damned condemnation.

Its our choice whether to believe or not. whether or not you get the warm feeling you'll still die. believe or not?? The devil and demons believe in God.... So we must also trust..

In Genesis it says that the world was perfect but we were created with choice. When Eve took the fruit that the viper offered and Adam followed along with her, they made the choice and disobeyed God. After that the world was no longer perfect. Heaven is perfect so the choice we make on earth is whether we are willing to live the after life in Wonderfull perfection, or, Damned condemnation.

Its our choice whether to believe or not. whether or not you get the warm feeling you'll still die. believe or not?? The devil and demons believe in God.... So we must also trust..

So when adam and eve decided what they wanted to eat that day there wasnt a choice. When adam and eve decided what to do when they were awake it wasnt a choice. The fruit was from the tree of knowledge not the tree of making choices. And the whole devil and demons thing is a basesless saying.

Yep, that's always a great excuse.
God can behave like a butt-head because we mere mortals just don't understand his mysterious workings and shouldn't be trying.
Sorry, if I'm going to worship something it's morals need to be superior to mine. I don't think he qualifies.

You guys seem determined to label, categorize, and box up a being beyond our comprehension. God is something different to each person. To some He is a singular, wrathful, and judgmental being. Some people need this concept to keep themselves in line. They must believe that they will be punished for their ill deeds, for why else keep from the temptations of selfishness. The Bible is similar to God. When you read its pages, you see what you need to see, and a great many people take comfort from this.

As for why the God does the things he does, do you really want to know? I mean really? Could you imagine knowing the Will of God? There have been people over the centuries who have been blessed by knowledge from God. They usually wind up beheaded or nailed to trees.

You also keep thinking of time as if it exists in a straight line. Physics has already proved that time bends. So maybe God exists outside of time.


As for me, I think of God as my best friend. He is loyal, forgiving, and has never betrayed me. That can not be said of many human beings. (He also created chocolate cookie dough icecream, proof that I am loved :) )

You guys seem determined to label, categorize, and box up a being beyond our comprehension. God is something different to each person. To some He is a singular, wrathful, and judgmental being. Some people need this concept to keep themselves in line. They must believe that they will be punished for their ill deeds, for why else keep from the temptations of selfishness. The Bible is similar to God. When you read its pages, you see what you need to see, and a great many people take comfort from this.

As for why the God does the things he does, do you really want to know? I mean really? Could you imagine knowing the Will of God? There have been people over the centuries who have been blessed by knowledge from God. They usually wind up beheaded or nailed to trees.

You also keep thinking of time as if it exists in a straight line. Physics has already proved that time bends. So maybe God exists outside of time.


As for me, I think of God as my best friend. He is loyal, forgiving, and has never betrayed me. That can not be said of many human beings. (He also created chocolate cookie dough icecream, proof that I am loved :) )

Even if there are parts of god humans can not understand surely there are parts of god that are well within the understanding of the human mind. Also you mention that god is many things to different people. Is this in itself proof that there is no one true religion or if there is we cannot know it. Also we have war and disease and so many other things that are bad and horrible which prove that we are not loved and that all trump chocolate chip cookie dough.

Even if there are parts of god humans can not understand surely there are parts of god that are well within the understanding of the human mind. Also you mention that god is many things to different people. Is this in itself proof that there is no one true religion or if there is we cannot know it. Also we have war and disease and so many other things that are bad and horrible which prove that we are not loved and that all trump chocolate chip cookie dough.

a point i was going to respond with, his post seems to make god relative to the individual...

In Genesis it says that the world was perfect but we were created with choice. When Eve took the fruit that the viper offered and Adam followed along with her, they made the choice and disobeyed God. After that the world was no longer perfect. Heaven is perfect so the choice we make on earth is whether we are willing to live the after life in Wonderfull perfection, or, Damned condemnation.

Its our choice whether to believe or not. whether or not you get the warm feeling you'll still die. believe or not?? The devil and demons believe in God.... So we must also trust..

no the world god created was not perfect because we messed it up. heaven is perfect, we cannot corrupt it. so that shows that god could create a perfect and non corruptable place, with us having free will, with no pain, suffering, ect, but he still chose to make us in this world and not heaven.

right, a point i already made...satan and the demons believe in god whom they have seen! and do not follow him, so how am i to follow this god, whom i have not even seen?

You guys seem determined to label, categorize, and box up a being beyond our comprehension. God is something different to each person. To some He is a singular, wrathful, and judgmental being. Some people need this concept to keep themselves in line. They must believe that they will be punished for their ill deeds, for why else keep from the temptations of selfishness. The Bible is similar to God. When you read its pages, you see what you need to see, and a great many people take comfort from this.

As for why the God does the things he does, do you really want to know? I mean really? Could you imagine knowing the Will of God? There have been people over the centuries who have been blessed by knowledge from God. They usually wind up beheaded or nailed to trees.

You also keep thinking of time as if it exists in a straight line. Physics has already proved that time bends. So maybe God exists outside of time.


As for me, I think of God as my best friend. He is loyal, forgiving, and has never betrayed me. That can not be said of many human beings. (He also created chocolate cookie dough icecream, proof that I am loved :) )

so since we cant understand god, lets live like ants and just go with the flow? god gave us minds for a reason right? we have ways of understanding god and we have labels for acts done and words said. we can puts labels on god because he gave us the understanding to do so.

Yep, that's always a great excuse.
God can behave like a butt-head because we mere mortals just don't understand his mysterious workings and shouldn't be trying.
Sorry, if I'm going to worship something it's morals need to be superior to mine. I don't think he qualifies.

that seems to be the response... we cant question god because he his god. so when god pilages, murders and wipes out whole cities we should just let it go because we dont understand and therefore should just give up praises to god...yay, thats great eh? a good point with morals too.

no the world god created was not perfect because we messed it up.
We tainted God's creation? We have the power!

hmm i never thought i'd see something like this and now that i have i find it rather amusing... tell me how in the hell do you expect to go off saying that I messed the world up if i recall it was my ancestors not me... therefore i take offense to such a thing and wonder if i should beat your a$$ or not :p but at any rate wasnt it Adam and Eve that ate off that damn tree? therefore they are the ones who ruined humanity by introducing the knowledge of Good and Evil to us...

hmm i never thought i'd see something like this and now that i have i find it rather amusing... tell me how in the hell do you expect to go off saying that I messed the world up if i recall it was my ancestors not me... therefore i take offense to such a thing and wonder if i should beat your a$$ or not :p but at any rate wasnt it Adam and Eve that ate off that damn tree? therefore they are the ones who ruined humanity by introducing the knowledge of Good and Evil to us...
... just by being you, dude. :)

hmm i never thought i'd see something like this and now that i have i find it rather amusing... tell me how in the hell do you expect to go off saying that I messed the world up if i recall it was my ancestors not me... therefore i take offense to such a thing and wonder if i should beat your a$$ or not :p but at any rate wasnt it Adam and Eve that ate off that damn tree? therefore they are the ones who ruined humanity by introducing the knowledge of Good and Evil to us...

right, adam and eve ate an apple that corrupted the whole planet, condemned all creation even animals, and seperated us from god...i wonder if you were adam if you would have eaten of the tree? well since it was gods intention for us to, i think you would... and it was his intention, if it wasnt, he would not have created the tree in the firstplace or this world with the possibility of corruption...

It seems this site has is filled with a great many disillusioned people. Most of you question all that surrounds you, and you are surprised that the reality you have built for yourselves is so harsh. I believe that there is a one true God and that he is beyond my comprehension, and surprisingly I am okay with that. Knowledge is power, and power is responsibility. Frankly, I really don’t need any more responsibility. That is what amuses me about the whole heaven and hell bit. It doesn’t matter which direction I go. I will be free of my responsibilities, which would be an unimaginable gift.

I will not argue with you that there is a God because you must decide that for yourself. If you wish to believe that God does not care about us. I feel nothing but pity for you. There are some days when I wake up, and I want nothing more then to roll over and go back to sleep. Responsibilities to myself and others get me out of bed, but the idea that there is something greater then me that cares about me, keeps me from going more insane then I already am.

I wish all of you luck and joy in your life, and pray peace finds you, even in your cynicism.

Being non-religious isn't automatically cynicism, bucko.

If I believed that the world was dominated by an unknowable force who loves justly via planetary flood... I'd be outright Goth.

However, your spite for responsibility is rather telling in regards to why you follow such an entity.

Some of us enjoy our responsibilities.

It seems this site has is filled with a great many disillusioned people. Most of you question all that surrounds you, and you are surprised that the reality you have built for yourselves is so harsh. I believe that there is a one true God and that he is beyond my comprehension, and surprisingly I am okay with that. Knowledge is power, and power is responsibility. Frankly, I really don’t need any more responsibility. That is what amuses me about the whole heaven and hell bit. It doesn’t matter which direction I go. I will be free of my responsibilities, which would be an unimaginable gift.

I will not argue with you that there is a God because you must decide that for yourself. If you wish to believe that God does not care about us. I feel nothing but pity for you. There are some days when I wake up, and I want nothing more then to roll over and go back to sleep. Responsibilities to myself and others get me out of bed, but the idea that there is something greater then me that cares about me, keeps me from going more insane then I already am.

I wish all of you luck and joy in your life, and pray peace finds you, even in your cynicism.

lol alright once again I am going to go with the arguement i went with before for this poster. Note I am not trying to convert anyone just using it as a means to an end. Your religious beliefs are wrong and I will tell you the correct religion is the Raelian religion. It believes that a group of super intellegent aliens created humans and wish to share their knowledge with us. All you have to do to find out the truth and get eternal happiness have faith in the Aliens and put your life in their hands. So are you going to believe now?

It seems this site has is filled with a great many disillusioned people. Most of you question all that surrounds you, and you are surprised that the reality you have built for yourselves is so harsh. I believe that there is a one true God and that he is beyond my comprehension, and surprisingly I am okay with that. Knowledge is power, and power is responsibility. Frankly, I really don’t need any more responsibility. That is what amuses me about the whole heaven and hell bit. It doesn’t matter which direction I go. I will be free of my responsibilities, which would be an unimaginable gift.

I will not argue with you that there is a God because you must decide that for yourself. If you wish to believe that God does not care about us. I feel nothing but pity for you. There are some days when I wake up, and I want nothing more then to roll over and go back to sleep. Responsibilities to myself and others get me out of bed, but the idea that there is something greater then me that cares about me, keeps me from going more insane then I already am.

I wish all of you luck and joy in your life, and pray peace finds you, even in your cynicism.

our reality is harsh and that shouldnt be surprising. well, it is since god is supposted to be looking out for us...dont pity me, im fine without god. the only reason i roll over and go back to sleep is if im tired. i enjoy getting up everyday-especially if im going to play some golf; god isnt the only reason people live.

:confused: :

God is jealous: "For the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." (Exod. 34:14)


Jealousy is a sin: "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious, sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions (Gal. 5:19-20)

1) 1st John 4:8 "God is love"

2) 1st Corinthians 13:4 "love is not jealous"

Isn't the concept of an Afterlife baised on Religion?
Yes. The concept of an Afterlife is the concretization of an ancient concept of "eternal life", similar to the Greek zoe. Zoe is what you might call the life-force. It is eternal in the sense that, even though life-forms (bios) die, life (zoe) goes on.

We have the life-force within us, but individually we are just a part of the whole scope of the life-force. Zoe life spans time, stretching from an unimaginable past to the present, and will continue into the future, but bios is limited in life span, just a segment of the line that is zoe. We live, and we die. And we make gods to embrace and fill a zoe-type life span.

Participation in bios is also participation in zoe. It may seem odd, but this idea also includes participating in death. We live and we die, that is the way of mortal things. We die knowing that we are not the last, that life (zoe) will continue long after we are gone. While we were alive, we contributed to the life-force, being a part of the whole that makes zoe great.

The concept of an Afterlife is an attempt to make the ideas expressed here "real", as in a place that bios can achieve a zoe-type existence beyond its inevitable death.

It seems this site has is filled with a great many disillusioned people. Most of you question all that surrounds you, and you are surprised that the reality you have built for yourselves is so harsh. I believe that there is a one true God and that he is beyond my comprehension, and surprisingly I am okay with that. Knowledge is power, and power is responsibility. Frankly, I really don’t need any more responsibility. That is what amuses me about the whole heaven and hell bit. It doesn’t matter which direction I go. I will be free of my responsibilities, which would be an unimaginable gift.

I will not argue with you that there is a God because you must decide that for yourself. If you wish to believe that God does not care about us. I feel nothing but pity for you. There are some days when I wake up, and I want nothing more then to roll over and go back to sleep. Responsibilities to myself and others get me out of bed, but the idea that there is something greater then me that cares about me, keeps me from going more insane then I already am.

I wish all of you luck and joy in your life, and pray peace finds you, even in your cynicism.


I have not built that harsh reality for myself ... it was already there (being reality and such) I just prefer to know the truth then sugarcoat things because life is not easy

O, yes. Because it's obvious that in the entirety of the Bible's existance you have been the first to reveal this hidden truth (in the most widely circulated book of all time!) to everyone. Since, you know, nobody else has ever noticed or addressed these questions before. Let's give you a f*cking medal!

You know, I first thought I'd make a long counterargument but it is clear that you have not made ANY effort to research the side of the question from the viewpoint of anyone that values that particular part of the Bible (what Christians refer to as the Old Testament). I hate to assume (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but be honest), but I'm going to guess that you simply looked through the Bible (or perhaps some website that already did it for you) looking for verses to quote to try and discredit the faith of others and/or feel smug/superior on a little internet forum. So I figured, why the hell should I make the effort and do the research when you have refused to?


Hehe...spoken like a true christian and believer of god """Let's give you a f*cking medal!""" ....you just need to STFU now.... F*cking hippocrit!

I too thought I'd make a long counterargument, BUT, it is clear that YOU have not made ANY effort to research the side of the question from the viewpoint of ANYONE, or ANYTHING, for that matter!

The only one coming off as smug/superior was you, but you're too much of tool to see that, eh!?!?

I'll jusy close with a quote from idiot...
"So I figured, why the hell should I make the effort and do the research when you have refused to?"
Ditto to ye too...

This thread is quite clearly bait but I'm only going to take one bite. This is the only post I'm going to make on this thread.
The verse in question deal with punishment for sins. God's just nature means He cannot let sin go without payment.


Awww... how safe...make your statment then run away with fingers in yer ears cuz ye just can't bear the truth, heat, or watever!!!!

C'mon... be a soldier for god.... dang wussie!

Awww... how safe...make your statment then run away with fingers in yer ears cuz ye just can't bear the truth, heat, or watever!!!!

C'mon... be a soldier for god.... dang wussie!
Please settle down a bit flaming is not looked kindly on in this forum

Awesome. God is such a bad-ass. :cool:

Hehe...spoken like a true christian and believer of god """Let's give you a f*cking medal!""" ....you just need to STFU now.... F*cking hippocrit!
Yeosa, your personal attacks will cease and desist AT ONCE. Read the Glossary of Forbidden Actions (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=288255), particularly the section on flaming. NationStates is not a free-for-all insult-fest. Disagree with the position, not the poster.

Are we clear? Good.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

hmm i never thought i'd see something like this and now that i have i find it rather amusing... tell me how in the hell do you expect to go off saying that I messed the world up if i recall it was my ancestors not me... therefore i take offense to such a thing and wonder if i should beat your a$$ or not :p but at any rate wasnt it Adam and Eve that ate off that damn tree? therefore they are the ones who ruined humanity by introducing the knowledge of Good and Evil to us...Gee.. and it's so hard to get back to God... just say "I'm sorry" and accept God as your Lord and Savior... You don't have to give up Science. Don't have to give up 90% of your earnings. don't have to wear any special clothing... heck, you don't even have to post on threads like this.

but still people refuse... and While I honor their reasons. I will still believe in my God. and those who want to believe in Vishu, Zeuse, or the little Pink Unicorn can. after all. the Word is there, there are people to answer questions that are there. and if you still refuse... then well.. we tried.

Gee.. and it's so hard to get back to God... just say "I'm sorry" and accept God as your Lord and Savior...


If there is a God when I die, I will say sorry to him for any evil I've done, but I don't se why we have to accept him as our Lord and Saviour. Why does He deserver our worship?

Gee.. and it's so hard to get back to God... just say "I'm sorry" and accept God as your Lord and Savior... You don't have to give up Science. Don't have to give up 90% of your earnings. don't have to wear any special clothing... heck, you don't even have to post on threads like this.

but still people refuse... and While I honor their reasons. I will still believe in my God. and those who want to believe in Vishu, Zeuse, or the little Pink Unicorn can. after all. the Word is there, there are people to answer questions that are there. and if you still refuse... then well.. we tried.

But interestingly enough yours is the correct religion? While to the Hindu, Shiva and Ganesha are more correct.

But interestingly enough yours is the correct religion? While to the Hindu, Shiva and Ganesha are more correct.Because not all Hindu believe in Shiva and Ganesha... in fact most descriptions of the Hindu Religion makes the Worship of Gods 'Optional'

If there is a God when I die, I will say sorry to him for any evil I've done, but I don't se why we have to accept him as our Lord and Saviour. Why does He deserver our worship?I would suggest waiting on your Deathbed...

And I pray (if you don't mind of course) that it will be enough since you are choosing to hold of till the last minute.

I would suggest waiting on your Deathbed...

And I pray (if you don't mind of course) that it will be enough since you are choosing to hold of till the last minute.

This is why I have a problem with Christianity. Why should I say sorry to a God that has never even bothered to make Himself known to me, until I see Him?

This is why I have a problem with Christianity. Why should I say sorry to a God that has never even bothered to make Himself known to me, until I see Him?
Yes; especially since near-death experiences indicate we are practically guaranteed a hallucination or two on our death bed.

Can you Choose to believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun in this Day

Yes? because err it does?