NationStates Jolt Archive

"God" slaughtered innocent babies because of Pharaoh's stubbornness: "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.” (Exod. 12:29)

"God" had babies dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped open: "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"God" wanted children to be murdered as human sacrifices: "I let them become defiled through their gifts - the sacrifice of every firstborn - that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.” (Ezek. 20:26)

"God" threatened to have innocent children be devoured by wild animals: “I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.” (Lev. 26:22)

"God" threatened to have children cannibalized: "If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.” (Lev. 26:27-29)

"God" ordered the genocide of women, children and babies: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”” (1 Sam. 15:2-3)

"God" aborted fetuses and murdered children in answer to the prophet Hosea's prayer: "Give them, O Lord – what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry .... Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring." (Hosea 9:14-16)

"God" murdered a baby because of David's adultery: “Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." (2 Sam. 12:13-14)

"God" ordered people to kill their brothers, friends and neighbors: “Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'" (Exod. 32:27)

People who accuse me of taking these Bible verses out of context, must state the context which justifies "God" to slaughter a multitude of innocent babies and children.

- www.near-death.com

What an interesting thread.

What an interesting thread.

Of course. We all know how great the God of the Bible is...

Of course. We all know how great the God of the Bible is...

That's it. Piss Him off. :p

Goofballs has a good point. Will you judge God?

That's it. Piss Him off. :p

Eh, its time the truth be told. Ill bear the consequences ;)

o .o
o. o

I guess no Christians have anything to say to this...

Do we win? :confused:

Naah, their probably asleep. Just give it 24 hours. It will be nice and warm by then. I suspect in 48, we'd have temperatures capable of creating a sustainable fusion reaction.

more stuff to place on desks of unwitting christians.

*Shrugs* Old T events. As I understand it, the New T shows God's loving and merciful side with the coming of Christ, his death and resurection (John 3:16 and the like).

Of course I also believe that Jesus then replaced the old commandments and laws of Moses with just two (love God and love one another). So no, I don't know why some fundamentalist Christians quote the Old T in their pursuit of gays and other things they dislike.

Eh, its time the truth be told. Ill bear the consequences ;)

O, yes. Because it's obvious that in the entirety of the Bible's existance you have been the first to reveal this hidden truth (in the most widely circulated book of all time!) to everyone. Since, you know, nobody else has ever noticed or addressed these questions before. Let's give you a f*cking medal!

You know, I first thought I'd make a long counterargument but it is clear that you have not made ANY effort to research the side of the question from the viewpoint of anyone that values that particular part of the Bible (what Christians refer to as the Old Testament). I hate to assume (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but be honest), but I'm going to guess that you simply looked through the Bible (or perhaps some website that already did it for you) looking for verses to quote to try and discredit the faith of others and/or feel smug/superior on a little internet forum. So I figured, why the hell should I make the effort and do the research when you have refused to?

O, yes. Because it's obvious that in the entirety of the Bible's existance you have been the first to reveal this hidden truth (in the most widely circulated book of all time!) to everyone. Since, you know, nobody else has ever noticed or addressed these questions before. Let's give you a f*cking medal!

You know, I first thought I'd make a long counterargument but it is clear that you have not made ANY effort to research this issue from the viewpoint of anyone that values that particular part of the Bible (what Christians refer to as the Old Testament). I hate to assume (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but be honest), but I'm going to guess that you simply looked through the Bible (or perhaps some website that already did it for you) looking for verses to quote to try and discredit the faith of others and/or feel smug/superior on a little internet forum. So I figured, why the hell should I make the effort and do the research when you have refused to?

i must of hit a nerve... :rolleyes: The fact is your God is not loving. You can say the NT god is, but low and be hold they are one and the same. I was a christian from childhood until last year. You can say whatever you want verbally to make yourself seem witty but lets just skip that and discuss the issue of Gods seemingly loving nature. You dont want to make an effort so thats fine. Dont come into this thread and leave a response like that.

I don't understand why you can use "its just the O.T., it's a different side of God"

God isn't allowed to change his mind (he's omniscient and omnipotent, remember? He's frozen with the knowledge of what he WILL do) and even if he could change his mind, I don't believe that such a being is worthy of worship if he goes on a temper-tantrum and starts slaughtering innocents willy-nilly.

I don't understand why you can use "its just the O.T., it's a different side of God"

God isn't allowed to change his mind (he's omniscient and omnipotent, remember? He's frozen with the knowledge of what he WILL do) and even if he could change his mind, I don't believe that such a being is worthy of worship if he goes on a temper-tantrum and starts slaughtering innocents willy-nilly.

That's a human defenition, you can't make a judgement based on that, much less God as your target. That's like....putting a dog on trial for aggravated assault for biting some dude's 'nads off. Different standards.

"God" slaughtered innocent babies because of Pharaoh's stubbornness: "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.” (Exod. 12:29)

"God" had babies dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped open: "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"God" wanted children to be murdered as human sacrifices: "I let them become defiled through their gifts - the sacrifice of every firstborn - that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.” (Ezek. 20:26)

"God" threatened to have innocent children be devoured by wild animals: “I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.” (Lev. 26:22)

"God" threatened to have children cannibalized: "If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.” (Lev. 26:27-29)

"God" ordered the genocide of women, children and babies: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”” (1 Sam. 15:2-3)

"God" aborted fetuses and murdered children in answer to the prophet Hosea's prayer: "Give them, O Lord – what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry .... Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring." (Hosea 9:14-16)

"God" murdered a baby because of David's adultery: “Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." (2 Sam. 12:13-14)

"God" ordered people to kill their brothers, friends and neighbors: “Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'" (Exod. 32:27)

People who accuse me of taking these Bible verses out of context, must state the context which justifies "God" to slaughter a multitude of innocent babies and children.

- www.near-death.com

This thread is quite clearly bait but I'm only going to take one bite. This is the only post I'm going to make on this thread.
The verse in question deal with punishment for sins. God's just nature means He cannot let sin go without payment.

That's it. Piss Him off. :p

Him?

I'd say she's black or asian... *snicker*

couldnt he just up some taxes, or fine them, or tell them not to do it again, although there are prayers there that ASK for punishment, check out psalm 58 (http://www.easyenglish.info/psalms/psalm058-taw.htm) (especially verse 6)
there was another one that talks about pits of fire and raining meteors but i forgot which one it was, and before you ask i DID research this myself.

That's a human defenition, you can't make a judgement based on that, much less God as your target. That's like....putting a dog on trial for aggravated assault for biting some dude's 'nads off. Different standards.

Actually that dog would be killed without a trial.

It's not like God has to be loving.

Let's say you make a pot. A nice little ornate clay deal that you spend all of a Saturday making, then baking in a kiln.

What's to say you can't take that sucker out of the kiln and beat the crap out of it with a Louisville Slugger? You made it, it's yours after all.

Horrible as it sounds, we're all like stupid little pots to God. If he wants to blow a few of us up or make it rain cows over Seattle, it's his business.

Horrible as it sounds, we're all like stupid little pots to God. If he wants to blow a few of us up or make it rain cows over Seattle, it's his business.

He sounds like a dick.
Why worship him in that case?

He sounds like a dick.
Why worship him in that case?
Do you want cows raining over your city?

I think not. Worship God.

Do you want cows raining over your city?

I think not. Worship God.

I thought he loved me?

I wouldn't be too bothered if my pot didn't like me. I think someone has major insecurities.

This thread is quite clearly bait but I'm only going to take one bite. This is the only post I'm going to make on this thread.
The verse in question deal with punishment for sins. God's just nature means He cannot let sin go without payment.

God is also recorded to punish others for one persons sin. God sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. Gen 12:17 This thread is not bait, but an open chance for someone to show how God is loving and just and still performs the actions in the OT.

I thought he loved me?

I wouldn't be too bothered if my pot didn't like me. I think someone has major insecurities.
It's not so much when your pot doesn't like you. It's when your pot starts running around blowing up other pots, or when it steals your car keys and makes life miserable for the rest of the pots by keying the hell out of them.

That's when the pot gets the divine bat of justice.

It's not so much when your pot doesn't like you. It's when your pot starts running around blowing up other pots, or when it steals your car keys and makes life miserable for the rest of the pots by keying the hell out of them.

That's when the pot gets the divine bat of justice.

I wouldn't stop a pot from blowing up over pots by blowing up random pots, though.

I wouldn't stop a pot from blowing up over pots by blowing up random pots, though.
Maybe you're really bad with that divine bat. Maybe you miss. A lot.

Maybe you're really bad with that divine bat. Maybe you miss. A lot.

I wouldn't smash all my pots and then tell them I love them. If I smashed them all by accident I'd make it up to them, by putting flowers in them or something.

I wouldn't smash all my pots and then tell them I love them. If I smashed them all by accident I'd make it up to them, by putting flowers in them or something.
Maybe you're neurotic, and enjoy breaking things and then telling them how much you love them.

Maybe you're just in to S&M.

Or maybe you get pissed off that you broke an innocent pot, and then take out your anger on a whole series of innocent pots. Like putting dynamite in a bunch of them or something.

Or maybe you expect the other pots to gain the "flowers" you left them by looting the other pots' corpses. It's possible.

Maybe you're neurotic, and enjoy breaking things and then telling them how much you love them.

Maybe you're just in to S&M.

Or maybe you get pissed off that you broke an innocent pot, and then take out your anger on a whole series of innocent pots. Like putting dynamite in a bunch of them or something.

Or maybe you expect the other pots to gain the "flowers" you left them by looting the other pots' corpses. It's possible.


I can't think of a response to that, other than "lol".

Aww come on now, If you beleive the old testemant then you beleive that it's a mortal sin to eat shellfish (seriously, read leviticus!). I don't even want to go into this, but the fact is that the old testemant has been changed so many times and edited that it's closer to mythology than to religion. as for the whole, "Slaughter the innocent's!" thing, well most theologians who have actually studied it would probably put that down to People making war and claiming god was on their side, think george bush on iraq, no one actually beleives that god told him to do that, do they? this is just the same thing, a milenia ago!

The way I see it, if there is a god, and if he even cares what every one of us down here is doing, he's probably up in heaven laughing at you for posting this :)

This thread is quite clearly bait but I'm only going to take one bite. This is the only post I'm going to make on this thread.
The verse in question deal with punishment for sins. God's just nature means He cannot let sin go without payment.

I already responded, but I wanted to put in more verses.

2 Samuel 24, God killed 70,000 people because David took a census of them.

In 2 Kings 2:23-24, God sent 2 bears to rip apart 42 children for making fun of a prophet. (Of course being mauled to death by bears is the right punishment.)

Aww come on now, If you beleive the old testemant then you beleive that it's a mortal sin to eat shellfish (seriously, read leviticus!).
It's true. God hates shrimp. (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com)
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/images/468x60/pinchsuckburn.gif

Meh, it's the Old Testament. The God portrayed there is a merciless and stern God. The God portrayed in the New Testament, after the coming of Jesus, is a loving and forgiving God (as this is how Jesus showed Him to be).
Therefore, I believe that God is merciful and loving.

It's true. God hates shrimp. (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com)
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/images/468x60/pinchsuckburn.gif

Pinch the tail, suck the head, burn in hell. That slogan has a nice ring to it....

i must of hit a nerve... :rolleyes: The fact is your God is not loving. You can say the NT god is, but low and be hold they are one and the same. I was a christian from childhood until last year. You can say whatever you want verbally to make yourself seem witty but lets just skip that and discuss the issue of Gods seemingly loving nature. You dont want to make an effort so thats fine. Dont come into this thread and leave a response like that.

I never said the NT god is different from the OT god, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. I am willing to make the effort, but it's preferable and less frustrating when the creator of a thread has done at least some research from both sides instead of making a closed-minded statement and expecting everyone else to jump for you (I forgot where I was). Which you must be, since I made clear that this question is not new and you could have found your answer somewhere other than here (once again, forgot where I was). So perhaps you should be the one to look HARDER elsewhere than making threads here. But I've decided to bite...

The God in the OT and NT are indeed one and the same. The difference between the Old and New Testament, however, is that God has created a New covenant and testament to man. That being, man can bridge the gap of sin that separates us from God through Jesus. Before this time man was irredeemably sinful. Sin is so abhorrent and contrary to God that we deserve infinitely worse than whatever God dished out in the OT. But God does not want that horrible punishment for us which is why Jesus was sent to take the burden of sin. Anyway...during the OT God inflicted A LOT of punishment and the divine smack down on man (not that they/we didn't deserve it). In the case of David it was a punishment for David's sin that his child be taken away. If I had a Bible onhand I'd look up your "examples" but I'll just go on memory on the OT in general. In the time of the OT an "eye for an eye", or a direct, earthly punishment for the sin was needed since Jesus had not arrived yet. As for devastating groups of people; either it was to secure the safety of his chosen people over those that would do harm to them or to punish them (the Jews or the other groups) for transgressions (in some cases both). Divine punishment was the best way to keep people in line and by even killing them, did them a favor by keeping them from sinning further, turning away from God completely, and never be able to return to God. It is for this reason that God threw out Adam and Eve from Eden. If they had eaten from the tree of life they would have never died, keeping their sin and being separate from God forever. In his infinite loving kindness and mercy he allows us to die and gives us the chance wash away our sin and return to him. It may seem cruel that God would demand infants and children be killed in the OT but it is a mercy because they had not yet become stubbornly turned away from God and could accept his gift after death. It may be viewed as a punishment for those left behind (in fact, that might be part of the punishment, that they are for the brief moment that is life, left behind), but those that return to God return to something far greater and blissful.

Above all, keep in mind these two things. The first is that our souls are merely in temporary husks of flesh. If you accept God's grace, any difficulty or "punishment" faced in this life is incredibly insignificant next to the joys of the second life with God. While the pleasures of this life pale to the horrible separation of God or the "second death" should you refuse to accept his grace.

Secondly, even though I hope these answers satisfied you, this question was unnecessary in the first place. Not only for the above mentioned reason (that it HAS been answered by many people, offering many answers). Perhaps you might understand why I say this if you read Job again (the WHOLE book of Job). When Job questions God, God asks Job if he were the one responsible for all of creation, etc. The point being that God is beyond our understanding of things, beyond the comprehension of our squishy brains (hehe 'squishy' :D I just like to say it, 'squishy'. Go on say it out loud it's a funny word 'squishy' :D). Sorry for that bit of silliness. Anyway, trying to understanding anything about God 'entirely', since he is beyond understanding simply cannot be done. What I have offered is simply grasping at the beginnings of a meaning that God provided through the Bible since even in all its complexity it is probably the simplest way God's message could be translated for man. I guess that's more than two things. O well, sue me.

Wow, this turned out a lot longer than expected. Glad I didn't respond to it verse by verse, yeesh.

You have to remember that the Bible (although fundamentalists out there would disagree) is a continuing record of the relationship and growing understanding between God and humans. The people of Old Testament time saw these killings as answers to prayer or acts of God. The Old Testament was written by people, and therefore open to mistakes and errors, as well as interpretations. Perhaps God didn't actually kill all the people it says he does in the Bible. The important thing was that for the people of the time, God was acting in the world.

Also we cannot really question divine justice. Justice is a human term and a human concept. So to say that God shouldn't punish innocent people because its not just is wrong. You have to remember also that since he is God, he is able to see things which we are not able to see. He may know the consequences of his actions, in the sense that if he were to do something x million years ago, then something better would happen now than if he refrained from doing it. Since he is so much more powerful than us, we really are in no position to question his actions.

Aww come on now, If you beleive the old testemant then you beleive that it's a mortal sin to eat shellfish (seriously, read leviticus!). I don't even want to go into this, but the fact is that the old testemant has been changed so many times and edited that it's closer to mythology than to religion. as for the whole, "Slaughter the innocent's!" thing, well most theologians who have actually studied it would probably put that down to People making war and claiming god was on their side, think george bush on iraq, no one actually beleives that god told him to do that, do they? this is just the same thing, a milenia ago!

The way I see it, if there is a god, and if he even cares what every one of us down here is doing, he's probably up in heaven laughing at you for posting this :)

Could be that too I suppose. I tend to focus on the OT as an important "background" for the NT. Such as the initial covenant made with Abraham and the way things were done with divine punishment before the NT and Jesus for example. But like I said, the insanely complex (and written by hands of man) Bible is the best text we have to go on to have the slightest understanding of God (which is a very slight understanding). A better way to know what God wants for us is accepting God's grace and opening up to a personal relationship with God so that we may better know what he wants for us in life.

I think you're not thinking this through very well. I'm an athiest myself, but it's clear to me that none of the things you quoted shows that the God described isn't loving.

You seem to be working on the assumption that life on this planet is all that is important, but from a Christian viewpoint this life is of almost no worth when compared with the hereafter.

Killing children isn't that harmful to them - what matters most is their souls, and their souls are in good hands with God. Ultimately, if the death of any number of people leads to a greater number of souls being saved, then it is for the best. So God killed the babies because he loves mankind and wants as many people as possible to be saved.

Anyway, as I said, I'm an athiest, and maybe some christians will disagree with my interpretation, but that's how I understand the issue.

Please don't post inflamatory threads against a religion that you obviously haven't given much thought to - it gives athiests a bad name.

It should be clear, as someone pointed out earlier, that your points are too obvious not to have been noticed and thought about by intelligent christians for centuries. It is silly to assume that they never came up with a good explanation, and it is clear that you've made little or no effort to find out what it was.

Let's face it, the God of Christianity is just as bloody and vengeful as any human being. Not that I take the Bible to be anything remotely literal...

Thank you quorm! At least someone noticed that point. But I'm just as bad because I ended up biting the troll anyway. *sigh*

I'm showwy evybody :( *says in cute sad voice with sad puppy dog eyes*

You were also able to make the other points in your post about God, in fact, being loving in a better and more concise manner than this schmuck was. ;):D *points at self and laughs like idiot*

Hmmm, not quite warm enough yet. Just a little bit more....

Please don't post inflamatory threads against a religion that you obviously haven't given much thought to - it gives athiests a bad name.

It should be clear, as someone pointed out earlier, that your points are too obvious not to have been noticed and thought about by intelligent christians for centuries. It is silly to assume that they never came up with a good explanation, and it is clear that you've made little or no effort to find out what it was.

Oh my...i WAS a chrisitan for 20 years! I am also only 3 classes from a major in religious studies. I have not thought this out?! I had devoted my whole life to this god. I stopped beleiveing in god about a year ago. I look at the old testament and certainly do not see a God that would rather SAVE than KILL!

Originally Posted by Nierez
Meh, it's the Old Testament. The God portrayed there is a merciless and stern God. The God portrayed in the New Testament, after the coming of Jesus, is a loving and forgiving God (as this is how Jesus showed Him to be).
Therefore, I believe that God is merciful and loving.

I believe Terry Pratchett said it best:
The New Testament is basically about what happened when God got religion.

Oh my...i WAS a chrisitan for 20 years! I am also only 3 classes from a major in religious studies. I have not thought this out?! I had devoted my whole life to this god. I stopped beleiveing in god about a year ago. I look at the old testament and certainly do not see a God that would rather SAVE than KILL!

Perhaps because the OT was written BEFORE the NT was written? Of course the writers would mostly write about how God is dishing out the whoop ass , but they were not yet aware of God's plan of bringing in Jesus hadn't been brought about yet. You need to take the take the two testaments TOGETHER. I can understand the tendency to read and "judge" (even though this is fundamentally wrong, see Job, but that point has been made) book on its own "merits" (God's actions in this case) but the Bible also needs to be seen as a whole.

Let's face it, the God of Christianity is just as bloody and vengeful as any human being. Not that I take the Bible to be anything remotely literal...

I think it is funny how people say that Gods killing people is part of his love and mercy. I guess when God send 2 bears to maul 42 children it was for the best...

Perhaps because the OT was written BEFORE the NT was written? Of course the writers would mostly write about how God is dishing out the whoop ass , but they were not yet aware of God's plan of bringing in Jesus hadn't been brought about yet. You need to take the take the two testaments TOGETHER. I can understand the tendency to read and "judge" (even though this is fundamentally wrong, see Job) book on its own "merits"/God's actions but the Bible also needs to be seen as a whole.

Take them together? So I guess you cant have one without the other? I wonder what the time difference is between them? I think its about 400-500 years...so when people only had the old testament it was ok for God to act the way he did?

Oh my...i WAS a chrisitan for 20 years! I am also only 3 classes from a major in religious studies. I have not thought this out?! I had devoted my whole life to this god. I stopped beleiveing in god about a year ago. I look at the old testament and certainly do not see a God that would rather SAVE than KILL!
The whole point is that all that really matters is the soul. If to set an example that people will remember and understand God has to kill many people, that's hardly a high price to pay. As I understand Christian theology, our lives on this planet are all but worthless when compared with the value of our souls. So by killing people to save others God has thrown away something of no worth in exchange for something of infinite worth.

You can disagree that our lives on this planet are so unimportant, but even as an athiest, if I believed in the an eternal afterlife I would see no value in my life on earth, and would gladly give it to help others' souls - it's just plain logical!

You say you've thought this through, but you make no effort to answer my points. Unfortunately it's 4 in the morning where I am, so I have to go to bed, but I'm sure others can argue as well as I can.

Take them together? So I guess you cant have one without the other? I wonder what the time difference is between them? I think its about 400-500 years...so when people only had the old testament it was ok for God to act the way he did?

First, God doesn't have to justify **** (try to guess which word, hehe) to us. Second, death is a mercy, especially at that time because Jesus had not yet come and if sinning people were not punished, even sometimes killed, they would turn away from God, making them incapable of accepting his grace. Anyone that did die during this time will be judged by God DEFINITELY by the final judgement in Revelations.

As for the children, as mentioned earlier, it is a mercy that God bring them home before they could turn away from God. He effectively brought them to eternal happiness all the sooner. Any punishment would have been meant for those left behind, and in turn so that they would turn back to God. Discipline=grace.

Edit: Once again, quorm does a better job at making the case than me. Then again, it's 5 A.M. here and I NEED sleep. Isn't insomnia a b*tch?

Originally Posted by Secluded Islands
I think it is funny how people say that Gods killing people is part of his love and mercy. I guess when God send 2 bears to maul 42 children it was for the best...
If God wanted to be really loving and merciful to me, I know at least 42 "children" at my school that he could send some bears to maul.

"God" slaughtered innocent babies because of Pharaoh's stubbornness: "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.” (Exod. 12:29)

"God" had babies dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped open: "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"God" wanted children to be murdered as human sacrifices: "I let them become defiled through their gifts - the sacrifice of every firstborn - that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.” (Ezek. 20:26)

"God" threatened to have innocent children be devoured by wild animals: “I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.” (Lev. 26:22)

"God" threatened to have children cannibalized: "If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.” (Lev. 26:27-29)

"God" ordered the genocide of women, children and babies: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”” (1 Sam. 15:2-3)

"God" aborted fetuses and murdered children in answer to the prophet Hosea's prayer: "Give them, O Lord – what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry .... Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring." (Hosea 9:14-16)

"God" murdered a baby because of David's adultery: “Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." (2 Sam. 12:13-14)

"God" ordered people to kill their brothers, friends and neighbors: “Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'" (Exod. 32:27)

People who accuse me of taking these Bible verses out of context, must state the context which justifies "God" to slaughter a multitude of innocent babies and children.

- www.near-death.comEach and every instance was Punnishment for sinning against GOD. The First instance was the last of several... SEVERAL plagues and miricals to convince the Pharoah to let God's People go... after each instance, the Pharoah, instead of listening to his heart, chose to listen to his "wise men" and each plague got worse. The PASSOVER would not have happened if he had done as Moses asked. And at the same time, let's not forget that the Pharoah ordered all male children killed to prevent the birth of Moses. Is he to become a blameless victim?

the rest, were punnishment for disobeying God's word, for turning away from God and throwing away and trampling his love.

Now however, Jesus was sent and balanced the accounts... no more does God ask for the bloodshed. no longer do we need to offer Burnt sacrifices. Now, price of Sin shall be accounted for at the Day of Judgement. the Stain of Sin washed away by Jesus.

Don't forget God screwed Job over completely just to win a bet with the Devil.

While I wasn't exactly thrilled with the tone of the initial post, I think it's a fair enough question to ask...it does make God out to be a bit of a meanie.

I think you've got some pretty good answers already though. God wasn't just being spiteful killing those people...he was punishing sin. I'm not convinced he killed thousands of innocent people, because I'm not sure there have ever been that many innocents.

We've all sinned against God. Is there anyone out there who can put there hand up and honestly say that every single time they made the right decision? That every time they chose what was best for God? For other people? What was the most loving thing they could do? And because God is perfect and just he has to punish sin.

The thing I find most amazing though, is how merciful God is. He loves us so much, that he took the most enourmous risks for us. He made this beautiful world, and it was such a risk letting us into his creation, because he knew we'd mess it up. By giving us the opportunity to choose, he knew there'd be times when we made the wrong decisions. But he still let us, because he loves us.

And he loves us so much that he worked out a way that we could be with him even though we mess up all the time. Jesus was the only innocent man to ever live, in my opinion, and he chose to become guilty, to take all of our sin upon himself, and be the sacrifice it would take so that we could all have God's forgiveness.

And now, by identifying ouselves with Jesus, by saying that we choose him, and his ways, we get to have a relationship with God, our Father and creator...which I think is flippin amazing.

As far as I can see...it can't get much more loving than that.

1) Love and Justice are human terms. The Christian deity does not match either of the human notions.

2) The Deity is all powerful. That makes everything a whim. Including the creation of the concepts of justice and love, sin and anger at sin.

3) The Deity can make anything happen through any means. It doesn't have to kill kids via bear.

4) The Deity chose to be pissy. It chose to be angry at sin. It chose to cause sinners to go to hell instead of everyone being lumped in to something pleasant.

5) The Deity, thus, is an ass bastard.

1) Love and Justice are human terms. The Christian deity does not match either of the human notions.

2) The Deity is all powerful. That makes everything a whim. Including the creation of the concepts of justice and love, sin and anger at sin.

3) The Deity can make anything happen through any means. It doesn't have to kill kids via bear.

4) The Deity chose to be pissy. It chose to be angry at sin. It chose to cause sinners to go to hell instead of everyone being lumped in to something pleasant.

5) The Deity, thus, is an ass bastard.if Love and Justice are Human Terms so is Hate and Predijuce... so therefore, by your logic, he cannot be "Prissy" or "Angry" He can, however, set conditions for a Pleasant afterlife for his little creations, lay down laws that his little creations must follow, devise punnishments for when those laws are broken, and he can do the one thing everyone can do... sit back and watch His Creations run around without interferrence.

And he cannot be an Ass Bastard (another Human Trait) thus, The Diety is just... is.

Maybe the whole point of the Bible is a general discussion of human nature. OT = the side where anger and vengeance take hold and nothing can really be stopped but the NT shows a more compassionate side. Seems like that to me tbh. You can't take sides because as was said earlier, the God in the OT and NT are one and the same God. In all of the examples, it seemed that God had a reason for doing whatever he was supposed to have done but always acted in the way God thought best.

These kinds a threads are real painful and require toooooo much thinking to present a good arguement which, in the end, will not change anybody's mind anyway.

I guess I would just say that it doesn't matter what people think of God or if they disapprove of the actions of God. If God exists as Christianity, Islam and Judeism present it then God can pretty much do what I Am damn well pleases and we have no say in the matter. It doesn't matter if it is right or wrong, good or evil, fair or unfair. God doesn't have to be any of those things because in the end I Am makes all the rules and holds all the cards and if you go against God you will lose, plain and simple.
Now, if you don't believe in God then it really doesn't matter. And why would you care if somebody else choses to believe it. Faith or lack of faith really don't matter a hill of beans to me when I decide if I will like a person or not.

Don't forget God screwed Job over completely just to win a bet with the Devil.

yeah but earthly suffering is not only good for the soul, it is also irrelevant in comparison to eternal paradise after death, so as long as job got to heaven, it's all cool.

on the wider post issue ie "god is mean", how can you judge the love of god? like you know better than the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe what would improve the place?

not that I believe in god, i just believe that if you're going to quote scripture to disprove scripture, you should at least have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Oh my...i WAS a chrisitan for 20 years! I am also only 3 classes from a major in religious studies. I have not thought this out?! I had devoted my whole life to this god. I stopped beleiveing in god about a year ago. I look at the old testament and certainly do not see a God that would rather SAVE than KILL!

Then you should know that the episcopalian church has disavowed large parts of the old testament as wicked, and further treats the creation story as merely allegorical - or something.

Of course, they are still getting banned with the rest of religion when the time comes.

On the whole "killed people's souls go to a pleasant place" thing:

I was always taught that before Jesus, every human born was automatically screwed and had no-way into heaven (thanks to Adam and Eve). If this is so, how is killing dozens of children a good thing?

(N.B. My R.E. teacher was a bit of a nut, and I would take anything she said with a pinch of salt anyway. I just want to know.)

yeah but earthly suffering is not only good for the soul, it is also irrelevant in comparison to eternal paradise after death, so as long as job got to heaven, it's all cool.

on the wider post issue ie "god is mean", how can you judge the love of god? like you know better than the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe what would improve the place?

not that I believe in god, i just believe that if you're going to quote scripture to disprove scripture, you should at least have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Of Course, its silly of me to care about suffering and pain on this planet because it will be "all cool" in the afterlife... That hurts me to even think about. Why does God have to rely on vicious behavior to get his point across. You would think that a perfect entity would be able to get his point across without bloodshed and injustice...

i must of hit a nerve... :rolleyes: The fact is your God is not loving. You can say the NT god is, but low and be hold they are one and the same. I was a christian from childhood until last year.
What caused you to lose God last year? Perhaps if we sort through that, we might see the purpose of your thread?

Note: Bolding mine.

Each and every instance was Punnishment for sinning against GOD. The First instance was the last of several... SEVERAL plagues and miricals to convince the Pharoah to let God's People go... after each instance, the Pharoah, instead of listening to his heart, chose to listen to his "wise men" and each plague got worse. The PASSOVER would not have happened if he had done as Moses asked. And at the same time, let's not forget that the Pharoah ordered all male children killed to prevent the birth of Moses. Is he to become a blameless victim?

the rest, were punnishment for disobeying God's word, for turning away from God and throwing away and trampling his love.

Now however, Jesus was sent and balanced the accounts... no more does God ask for the bloodshed. no longer do we need to offer Burnt sacrifices. Now, price of Sin shall be accounted for at the Day of Judgement. the Stain of Sin washed away by Jesus.
You have hit the nail on the head. Great post!! :)

This is an interesting thread with a lot of interesting answers. I still have two questions.

1.) Why hasn't God created the world perfect in the first place? He is omnipotent, so if He loves us, why doesn't He arrange everything so that everybody gets to heaven (to communion with God)? Why has He created a world in which we can fail to reach the ultimate goal?

And why doesn't He impose his laws on us? Everything would be easier and there would be no need for punishment.

2.) Why does God make it impossible for me to find out whether He exists? I don't understand why He should punish me for not obeying him when I'm told ten different Wills of God. Which one is true, then? Do I have to be loving to everybody to get to heaven? Or should I rather kill Christians in the name of Allah? Or should I go to some Buddhist school and learn to meditate for enlightenment? This list could go on endlessly.

I have no means of finding out any (metaphysical) truth. My rationality is just as deceptive as my emotions or my perception. And I don't see why the bible should be a reliable source, it could have been made up by some power-hungry priest or the like.

These arguments always end up with the same circular argument in the end. This particular thread just looks like this -

"God did *insert various bad things*"
"It was for the greater good."
"How could *various bad things* be good?"
"God loves you, and needed to do it to help you in the long run."
"That doesn't make much sense if you ask me. Couldn't God find a better way?"
"Who are you to question God? He's omnipotent, knows all, sees all, he can tell the difference between butter and I Can't Believe Its Not Butter!"
"How do you know he's all those things?"
"The *insert old book* says so."
"How do you know its true?"
"Its the Word of God."
"Says who?"
"*old book* says so."


Listen, there's no good arguments for any of these things. If you believe one part of the religion, that gets the cycle started for you and everything else falls in place. If you don't believe, the cycle never begins. Those standing still and those moving in circles can't argue with each other and get anywhere.

Ever.

This is an interesting thread with a lot of interesting answers. I still have two questions.

1.) Why hasn't God created the world perfect in the first place? He is omnipotent, so if He loves us, why doesn't He arrange everything so that everybody gets to heaven (to communion with God)? Why has He created a world in which we can fail to reach the ultimate goal?

And why doesn't He impose his laws on us? Everything would be easier and there would be no need for punishment.
God didn't want a bunch of robots, so he gave us free will. HE has imposed his will on us through the 10 Commandments, and realizing that humans with free will, are more than likely to break some of these rules, HE has given us the ability to atone for our sins by asking for forgiveness. However, the key is that you do have to believe in HIM.

2.) Why does God make it impossible for me to find out whether He exists? I don't understand why He should punish me for not obeying him when I'm told ten different Wills of God. Which one is true, then? Do I have to be loving to everybody to get to heaven? Or should I rather kill Christians in the name of Allah? Or should I go to some Buddhist school and learn to meditate for enlightenment? This list could go on endlessly.

I have no means of finding out any (metaphysical) truth. My rationality is just as deceptive as my emotions or my perception. And I don't see why the bible should be a reliable source, it could have been made up by some power-hungry priest or the like.
God works in mysterious ways. HE gives us the opportunity to either have faith in him or faith in less worthy idols. Those that have faith, can see the beauty in HIS creations and can enjoy an inner peace even in troubled times.

Help others, and if you can't help others, at least do them no harm.

Brajayi']These arguments always end up with the same circular argument in the end. This particular thread just looks like this -

"God did *insert various bad things*"
"It was for the greater good."
"How could *various bad things* be good?"
"God loves you, and needed to do it to help you in the long run."
"That doesn't make much sense if you ask me. Couldn't God find a better way?"
"Who are you to question God? He's omnipotent, knows all, sees all, he can tell the difference between butter and I Can't Believe Its Not Butter!"
"How do you know he's all those things?"
"The *insert old book* says so."
"How do you know its true?"
"Its the Word of God."
"Says who?"
"*old book* says so."


Listen, there's no good arguments for any of these things. If you believe one part of the religion, that gets the cycle started for you and everything else falls in place. If you don't believe, the cycle never begins. Those standing still and those moving in circles can't argue with each other and get anywhere.

Ever.


Welcome to posting on ns :) and just wanted to mention very perceptive way to put what deffinatly does happen a lot of the time lol

What caused you to lose God last year? Perhaps if we sort through that, we might see the purpose of your thread?

Note: Bolding mine.

It wasnt a sudden break from God. It was a slow and progressing discision that i finally made. Many things caused it. I see no God in this world anymore. The Bible is supposed to be his word, but there are errors. I did not start having the feelings until i began to study the Bible as a text and look close at it with heavy criticism. I see a cruel God, not a loving one. God seems more likely to punish than to save. He wants me to believe in him, yet there is not one ounce of proof that a god even exists. Only words on a page. And those words are not even reliable. They contradict. One is the debate over who killed Goliath. Elhanan or David. The Biblical Scholars explain it away as a scribal error. This is supposed to be an inspired book by God. There should be 0 errors, yet there are. Gods character is not loving or just. He demands sacrifice. Why? Why does blood only pay for sin. You can say sacrifice is the thing of the past, (the Old Testament). But the ultimate shedding of blood was Christ in the New Testament. He was a blood sacrifice. Why? There is no need for God to require blood for payment unless that is what he wanted. He created the system and it is not loving. Not only does he require blind faith, but he does nothing to ensure his loving children will go to heaven instead of hell.

God didn't want a bunch of robots, so he gave us free will. HE has imposed his will on us through the 10 Commandments, and realizing that humans with free will, are more than likely to break some of these rules, HE has given us the ability to atone for our sins by asking for forgiveness. However, the key is that you do have to believe in HIM.

Hoo boy, this is going to be painfull...Ok, supposing god is ( as christians understand him to be) Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, Now, focusing on the omniscience, god knows all and sees all, he knew he was going to create the earth, he knew how we were going to turn out, he just plain old knows everything, so if god knows how we're all going to be right from the very beginning, so If the way we are we would always have been, then do we really have free will, or is our existance determined by destiny?

God works in mysterious ways. HE gives us the opportunity to either have faith in him or faith in less worthy idols. Those that have faith, can see the beauty in HIS creations and can enjoy an inner peace even in troubled times.

Help others, and if you can't help others, at least do them no harm.

Now, what gets to me is where you say that those who have faith can see the beauty in gods creations. Earth is, in my Religeously confused little opinion, despite all of the Evil and death and horror in the world An extremely beautiful place to be, The forces of nature move me in ways that I can not describe, and I beleive that the world will go on being beautiful, even without god standing over it.

Sometimes you learn more in the asking of a question than in finding the answer. so keep on asking yours and don't accept the first reply you get.

"God" slaughtered innocent babies because of Pharaoh's stubbornness: "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.” (Exod. 12:29)

"God" had babies dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped open: "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"God" wanted children to be murdered as human sacrifices: "I let them become defiled through their gifts - the sacrifice of every firstborn - that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.” (Ezek. 20:26)

"God" threatened to have innocent children be devoured by wild animals: “I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.” (Lev. 26:22)

"God" threatened to have children cannibalized: "If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.” (Lev. 26:27-29)

"God" ordered the genocide of women, children and babies: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”” (1 Sam. 15:2-3)

"God" aborted fetuses and murdered children in answer to the prophet Hosea's prayer: "Give them, O Lord – what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry .... Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring." (Hosea 9:14-16)

"God" murdered a baby because of David's adultery: “Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." (2 Sam. 12:13-14)

"God" ordered people to kill their brothers, friends and neighbors: “Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'" (Exod. 32:27)

People who accuse me of taking these Bible verses out of context, must state the context which justifies "God" to slaughter a multitude of innocent babies and children.

- www.near-death.com

God does not require justification; He does as he wishes and is answerable to no one (omnipotent). If we don't like it, well too bad, because He has the power, not us. Man proposes, God disposes. Never forget that.

Some things that might not make sense to us (that we have a hard time dealing with) make perfect sense to God in his infinite wisdom.

It wasnt a sudden break from God. It was a slow and progressing discision that i finally made. Many things caused it. I see no God in this world anymore. The Bible is supposed to be his word, but there are errors. I did not start having the feelings until i began to study the Bible as a text and look close at it with heavy criticism. I see a cruel God, not a loving one. God seems more likely to punish than to save. He wants me to believe in him, yet there is not one ounce of proof that a god even exists. Only words on a page. And those words are not even reliable. They contradict. One is the debate over who killed Goliath. Elhanan or David. The Biblical Scholars explain it away as a scribal error. This is supposed to be an inspired book by God. There should be 0 errors, yet there are. Gods character is not loving or just. He demands sacrifice. Why? Why does blood only pay for sin. You can say sacrifice is the thing of the past, (the Old Testament). But the ultimate shedding of blood was Christ in the New Testament. He was a blood sacrifice. Why? There is no need for God to require blood for payment unless that is what he wanted. He created the system and it is not loving. Not only does he require blind faith, but he does nothing to ensure his loving children will go to heaven instead of hell.

I abruptly lost faith in the orginization in about 4th grade

Later I lost the faith in the religion because of a lot of the things you mention

I abruptly lost faith in the orginization in about 4th grade

Later I lost the faith in the religion because of a lot of the things you mention

Yeah. The same goes to many people I know. They are caught up in the sugar coated stories; then take an acutal look into the Bible, and thier opinions begin to change.

After reading the first post, did anyone else get hungry? :D

Yeah. The same goes to many people I know. They are caught up in the sugar coated stories; then take an acutal look into the Bible, and thier opinions begin to change.
Yeah I am suprized the loss of faith did not happen sooner about the same time that the loss of belief in the orginization did (I had one of "thoes" priests)

God does not require justification; He does as he wishes and is answerable to no one (omnipotent). If we don't like it, well too bad, because He has the power, not us. Man proposes, God disposes. Never forget that.

Some things that might not make sense to us (that we have a hard time dealing with) make perfect sense to God in his infinite wisdom.

If God is infinitely better than us, why is He ruling as a dictatorship, a system of rule than we humble humans have already toyed with and in most cases disposed of in favour of the more advanced democracy? Why can there not be, in the words of Phillip Pullman, a Republic of Heaven?
Submissiveness is never a good thing. The advocation of submissiveness over inquisitiveness is dangerous.

"Not only does he require blind faith, but he does nothing to ensure his loving children will go to heaven instead of hell."
-----------------------------------------------

That is incorrect. Faith is rewarded. I'll give you two famous biblical passages:

John 3:16 (jesus speaking)
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
-----

Matthew 5:1-12
Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them saying:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
--------

Luke 1:76-78
And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him, to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven..
-------

Ephesians 1:12-14
..in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.

------

Romans 1:16-17
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
-------

Romans 10:9-10 (and phrase leading up to verse 9)
...that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

------------------------------------------

the point of all of this is this: if you have faith/believe in Jesus, you will share in the glories of heaven. It is a promise made by Jesus himself.

if Love and Justice are Human Terms so is Hate and Predijuce... so therefore, by your logic, he cannot be "Prissy" or "Angry" He can, however, set conditions for a Pleasant afterlife for his little creations, lay down laws that his little creations must follow, devise punnishments for when those laws are broken, and he can do the one thing everyone can do... sit back and watch His Creations run around without interferrence.

And he cannot be an Ass Bastard (another Human Trait) thus, The Diety is just... is.

His actions can be described in human terms, so yes, we can define him any way we please.

He has no control over the English language. None whatsoever.

And the English language includes concepts like Evil, which he fits the definition of.

Hoo boy, this is going to be painfull...Ok, supposing god is ( as christians understand him to be) Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, Now, focusing on the omniscience, god knows all and sees all, he knew he was going to create the earth, he knew how we were going to turn out, he just plain old knows everything, so if god knows how we're all going to be right from the very beginning, so If the way we are we would always have been, then do we really have free will, or is our existance determined by destiny?
Everyone is on a journey through life. Some will choose their free will to harm themselves and/or others. Others will choose to use their free will to help others and themselves. The way I look at it, there are but a few simple rules to follow, and a process of atonement when those rules are broken. In the end their will be a judgement as to how I used my free will. At one point in time, my spirit was crushed, through the misuse of my free will. My spirit has since been rejuvenated through love and understanding.

Now, what gets to me is where you say that those who have faith can see the beauty in gods creations. Earth is, in my Religeously confused little opinion, despite all of the Evil and death and horror in the world An extremely beautiful place to be, The forces of nature move me in ways that I can not describe, and I beleive that the world will go on being beautiful, even without god standing over it.
The "forces of nature" happen naturally? It is the forces of mankind that can reek utter destruction upon God's earth and mankind, and concerns me the most.

Sometimes you learn more in the asking of a question than in finding the answer. so keep on asking yours and don't accept the first reply you get.
To take your statement one step further, sometimes the answer is always there, deep inside. All one needs to do is allow it to come foward.

It wasnt a sudden break from God. It was a slow and progressing discision that i finally made. Many things caused it. I see no God in this world anymore.
I was in the exact same place at one time. I have since learned that the further away from God that I got, the worse my life became, and it was very painful. I can only speak of my own experience but the closer I get to God's will for me, the better my life gets.

I was in the exact same place at one time. I have since learned that the further away from God that I got, the worse my life became, and it was very painful. I can only speak of my own experience but the closer I get to God's will for me, the better my life gets.
Mine has been the exact oposite ... a great understanding. once I finnaly understood what I felt there has been great emotional fufillment

People who accuse me of taking these Bible verses out of context, must state the context which justifies "God" to slaughter a multitude of innocent babies and children.

- www.near-death.com

Simply put it.

For the wages of sin is Death. You said Just. You are very right.

What did the babies do? The sins of the father passed down until the fourth generation. It's also known as generational curses.

It's not out of context. It's only half the story. You haven't gotten into the 'loving'.

*Shrugs* Old T events. As I understand it, the New T shows God's loving and merciful side with the coming of Christ, his death and resurection (John 3:16 and the like).

Of course I also believe that Jesus then replaced the old commandments and laws of Moses with just two (love God and love one another). So no, I don't know why some fundamentalist Christians quote the Old T in their pursuit of gays and other things they dislike.

I think their belief is that the "moral law" still stands and the "ritual law" has been abolished. So anything that they want to do is only prohibited by ritual law such as eating pork, waging illegal wars on foreign nations supported only by forgery, and lies and blowing up abortion clinics, but stuff that they don't like, such as homosexuality, is still prohibited by moral law or else it is no longer sanctioned by the abolished ritual law, as is the case with marijuana use.

For an answer to the orginal post in this thread.
I agree with JuNii's reply on page 4.

It wasnt a sudden break from God. It was a slow and progressing discision that i finally made. Many things caused it. I see no God in this world anymore. The Bible is supposed to be his word, but there are errors. I did not start having the feelings until i began to study the Bible as a text and look close at it with heavy criticism. I see a cruel God, not a loving one. God seems more likely to punish than to save. He wants me to believe in him, yet there is not one ounce of proof that a god even exists. Only words on a page. And those words are not even reliable. They contradict. One is the debate over who killed Goliath. Elhanan or David. The Biblical Scholars explain it away as a scribal error. This is supposed to be an inspired book by God. There should be 0 errors, yet there are. Gods character is not loving or just.
It sounds to me like you only had a head knowledge.
You need more than that when it comes to God.
You need to read His word with your heart.
His ways are not our ways.
We are ruled by emotion and failing human logic.
All it takes to see God as a loving God is to have Him save you from your sins.
After that happens... nothing else really matters.

He demands sacrifice. Why? Why does blood only pay for sin.
Remember in the beginning?
God told Adam and Eve, "If they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would die."
The wages of sin is death. That is not God's doing, but man's doing.

You can say sacrifice is the thing of the past, (the Old Testament). But the ultimate shedding of blood was Christ in the New Testament. He was a blood sacrifice. Why? There is no need for God to require blood for payment unless that is what he wanted.
Because, since... "The wages of sin is death."
There HAS to be "payment" of death.
That is why there were sacrifices.... to pay the penalty of death.
Then Jesus came to pay the ultimate price. Death. Once and for all.

He created the system and it is not loving. Not only does he require blind faith, but he does nothing to ensure his loving children will go to heaven instead of hell.
God IS love. It's humans that sinned and do sin. Not God.
Of course He requires blind faith. If you could see Him, you wouldn't need faith.
And He already did something to ensure that His children will not go to hell.
"For God SO loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son."
It is up to us to believe it... if we believe it, we go to Heaven! :D


Don't forget God screwed Job over completely just to win a bet with the Devil.
You got that wrong... In a sense. Satan screwed Job over, not God.
Yes, God allowed it... but look who did the doing... and who got pleasure out of it.
And remember at the end... Job said, "Before I only heard of God, now I see Him."
Yes, life sucks... real bad. But, if we truly search for God and know Him, it will all make sense in the end.

It wasnt a sudden break from God. It was a slow and progressing discision that i finally made. Many things caused it. I see no God in this world anymore. The Bible is supposed to be his word, but there are errors. I did not start having the feelings until i began to study the Bible as a text and look close at it with heavy criticism. I see a cruel God, not a loving one. God seems more likely to punish than to save. He wants me to believe in him, yet there is not one ounce of proof that a god even exists. Only words on a page. And those words are not even reliable. They contradict. One is the debate over who killed Goliath. Elhanan or David. The Biblical Scholars explain it away as a scribal error. This is supposed to be an inspired book by God. There should be 0 errors, yet there are. Gods character is not loving or just. He demands sacrifice. Why? Why does blood only pay for sin. You can say sacrifice is the thing of the past, (the Old Testament). But the ultimate shedding of blood was Christ in the New Testament. He was a blood sacrifice. Why? There is no need for God to require blood for payment unless that is what he wanted. He created the system and it is not loving. Not only does he require blind faith, but he does nothing to ensure his loving children will go to heaven instead of hell.

God inspired the original message but of course humans are going to f*ck it up and make errors in places. We're HUMAN! With something called FREE WILL. Including the free will to mess things up. This includes us not being able to fully comprehend God, any number of mistranslations/other errors through history, and misinterpretation by the reader.

I suppose God, in his infinite power COULD automatically dispose of all our sins but guess what? We're not little wind-up toys. We messed up and chose to separate ourselves from God and in his infinite mercy, instead of simply leaving us to eternal separation, God gave us a way back to him through Jesus. Sin is so abhorrent to God that it must be separate from him and the only way sin can be taken away is with payment/punishment. The idea that God can remove our sins without sacrifice is just silly. To take away our sins God had to take the sins of man, something of complete opposite to him, upon himself through Jesus. Even then, God in his perfect nature is separate from sin and "forsook" his son in the form of a man for the slightest instant as the sins of all mankind were placed on him. Luckily Jesus payed our price and our sin can be removed and washed away if we accept his grace.

Edit: Sableona also put it well. The wage of sin is DEATH, this includes phsyical death and the far worse DEATH of separation from God. Jesus' sacrifice was to pay the penalty of DEATH.

If God simply changed the "system" as you put it so that no price would need to be paid to get rid of sin (DEATH) then you're giving up an important part of free will. It's not free will if God will make all our spills "go away" without something done on our part. Of course, he's shown his compassion and mercy by making our part extraordinarily easy, all we have to do is accept God's help.

Originally posted by 31
These kinds a threads are real painful and require toooooo much thinking to present a good arguement which, in the end, will not change anybody's mind anyway.
I don't mind the thinking, as I enjoy presenting good argument and hearing it in return. However, I have begun posting less and less on them because of your next statement.

It has gotten to the point that I have lost faith . . . not in my God, for He has never failed to do what He said. I have been through hell on earth in life (maybe not quite Job, but you get the idea) and I have come through it through His strength. No, I have not lost faith in God. I have lost faith in the open mind of humanity. When both sides start saying, "I know what I believe, don't bother me with anything contrary," then I see no point in trying to argue.

For the record, God has always been a just, yet loving God. He warned Adam about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It wasn't as if He decided after the disobedience of humanity what the propitiation would be. Too, as a perfect God, and as the wages of sin are death, He cannot allow imperfection into His perfection. It would make for His imperfection. Thus, He is not willing those that die without the saving knowledge of Him to go to hell. He has no choice.

What is often assumed, for reasons probably relating to the concept that man is basically good, is that humanity is going to heaven until they prove they should go elsewhere. This is not the case, and is not supported in Scripture. Humanity is going to hell already. It is from God's mercy and love that He provided an alternative that both satisfied the payment for sin, yet also allowed sinful beings to be justified, thus being able to come into perfection after death on earth.

God has never, in fact, been able to excuse sin outright. There must always be atonement for it, as ugly as that sounds. The difference is from where the atonement comes. If one accepts the substitutionary death provided by Jesus Christ, then their own death becomes unnecessary for payment, because the death of the perfect and infinite Christ was sufficient to cover all sins possible (unless you are a 5.0 Calvinist ;) ). Thus, the belief in God alone does nothing to make payment for the sin, as anyone can believe in God. The Devil does (Though, I will admit that he likely had proof. ;) ) and I don't think he is headed for heaven.

Secluded Islands, I have felt the way you do. I have not actually been a Christian as long as you, but I already have my Masters in Theological Studies, and I will tell you that, with a proper understanding, the Bible does depict a just, yet merciful, God.

Curious side note: Where did you study for your degree in religious studies?

As far as the killing children is concerned, I honestly believe that because they are not able to discern good and evil (which was the result of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), that they are secure in heaven. As far as the youths that called Elisha a "baldhead," they were mocking the prophet of a holy God (We, as Christians, do tend to forget that God is still just, as He must demand payment for sin.). It was, after all, not God who cursed them, but Elisha himself. He cursed them in the name of God and the bears came.

Again, I am not going to say that love means that we all just live a happy-go-lucky existence with no pain, suffering, agony, hurt, or violence. I assert that God holds none of those things against us and that He only allows them in a temporary life with both a beginning and an end, whereas He will present an eternal state which will be absent of those.

Sometimes I still feel the way you do, Secluded Islands. I have learned, however, that trusting what I feel and trusting what I know are two different things. Regardless of what I feel like God is doing, I can know that He knows things I don't and works in ways of which I could never dream.

Originally posted by The Erisian Illuminati
This is an interesting thread with a lot of interesting answers. I still have two questions.

1.) Why hasn't God created the world perfect in the first place? He is omnipotent, so if He loves us, why doesn't He arrange everything so that everybody gets to heaven (to communion with God)? Why has He created a world in which we can fail to reach the ultimate goal?
God did, in fact, create the world in perfection. It claims, after every completed day, that He said it was good. However, in giving humanity the ability to choose their actions instead of being little zombies, He gave them the ability to exercise will. It was not God, in fact, who corrupted creation, but humanity. He originally did create everything so that all humanity would have communion with Himself. As a result of the fall of humanity, this was corrupted. He still makes a way, but as is true with all relationships, there must be communion on both sides. If a man does not believe in God, how can there be communion?

His creation was originally perfect. We screwed it up and, essentially, condemned ourselves to hell through the lack of our ability to pay the consequences and justify ourselves of this sin. God gives humanity an opportunity to satisfy the justification by providing a sacrifice that can satisfy
that need for retrobution, yet still not condemn us. All we have to do is accept it, through giving the life we have to Christ, as He is to be the substitution for our life, thus He is to be in control of our life.

And why doesn't He impose his laws on us? Everything would be easier and there would be no need for punishment.
Umm . . . I think you are implying that we would have no ability to choose anything, though I am not sure. Humanity was created to be a being which had freedom to exercise will and still maintain communion with God. As man chose to bring a riff between himself and God, he still had the ability to exercise his own will. Thus, we are still able to choose. Our ability was originally a blessing, as it was part of our imago dei, or likeness of God. However, since we are no longer able to maintain that communion without proptiation, it has become more of a burden, as our will gives us the option not to accept that propitiation.

2.) Why does God make it impossible for me to find out whether He exists? I don't understand why He should punish me for not obeying him when I'm told ten different Wills of God. Which one is true, then? Do I have to be loving to everybody to get to heaven? Or should I rather kill Christians in the name of Allah? Or should I go to some Buddhist school and learn to meditate for enlightenment? This list could go on endlessly.
Essentially, the belief in Christianity stems from the martyrdom of most of the original apostles. It has been accused that they conjured up most of the Gospel accounts. My big discrepency with this is that they died for what they proclaimed. Now, it is argued that many people die for what they believe and claim. The difference is, these men would have been able to empirically know the truth about this Christ about which they wrote. They didn't have to just believe the events they claimed, as they would have known the truth, firsthand. This poses the question: Why would these men die for proclamations that they knew were false, since they would have been the ones making them up? If I die for something that I believe to be true, that is one thing. They died for something that they would have seen to be either true or false.

I have no means of finding out any (metaphysical) truth. My rationality is just as deceptive as my emotions or my perception. And I don't see why the bible should be a reliable source, it could have been made up by some power-hungry priest or the like.
The only discrepency I have with this is that from the start, those who wrote it were persecuted for their writings and preachings. If they had written it as a "power-hungry priest," then they would've known it to be false, and would likely not have died for a lie that they knew to be so.

I am convinced that this will likely not change anyone's mind. Humanity has become so stubborn that learning to believe anything different than what they have always believed that is not empirically provable is a foreign concept. However, since I did say it, I cannot be blamed for not offering anything and being a coward. I don't know about other Christians on here, but anymore, I don't skip over a topic because I have no argument. I skip over it because arguments never get anywhere but logical fallacies and bull-headed opposition.

Why is it that every single time a Christian starts talking about the 'almighty God', who is right through his almightiness, they start using words like "cannot"?

Honestly.

Originally posted by Incenjucarania
Why is it that every single time a Christian starts talking about the 'almighty God', who is right through his almightiness, they start using words like "cannot"?

Honestly.
Eh, because a perfect God cannot be imperfect, according to the logical law of nocontradiction.

Not saying that God has to be completely logical by our standards, but I am saying that is the best as I can figure to know. Since He can be described in human terms, I think I may at least use logic where it applies.

Yeah! God is badass!

Mine has been the exact oposite ... a great understanding. once I finnaly understood what I felt there has been great emotional fufillment
Are you saying that the further away from God you get, the better your life gets?

God inspired the original message but of course humans are going to f*ck it up and make errors in places. We're HUMAN! With something called FREE WILL. Including the free will to mess things up. This includes us not being able to fully comprehend God, any number of mistranslations/other errors through history, and misinterpretation by the reader.

We do not have FREE WILL if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.

Everyone is on a journey through life. Some will choose their free will to harm themselves and/or others. Others will choose to use their free will to help others and themselves. The way I look at it, there are but a few simple rules to follow, and a process of atonement when those rules are broken. In the end their will be a judgement as to how I used my free will. At one point in time, my spirit was crushed, through the misuse of my free will. My spirit has since been rejuvenated through love and understanding.

I understand your point but you've not addressed mine, The point is that The very concept of our Free will goes against the Christian concept of god, while I personally would like to beleive that we do have free will, there is evidence to suggest that The way we are and think is determined through conditioning and a million other factors which we can not controle, and if god knows how we are going to be before we even exist, then how can we break away from what God has always known? If we can't then we have no free will, and if we can, then god is not truly Omniscient, so why call him god?

The "forces of nature" happen naturally? It is the forces of mankind that can reek utter destruction upon God's earth and mankind, and concerns me the most.

Ok, I agree with you, but you've missed my point again.

To take your statement one step further, sometimes the answer is always there, deep inside. All one needs to do is allow it to come foward.

Perhaps. Or perhaps sometimes there is no true answer, and the closest you can come to really knowing lies solely in your own faith.

There's plenty of might funny sites with lots of stuff like this.
http://www.evilbible.com
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
http://www.freewebs.com/see_the_truth/Revelation.html
http://www.usbible.org/usbible/Default_2.htm

We do not have FREE WILL if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.and that takes our free will away... how?

Being Omnipotent is one thing. However God has choosen to let us do what we will. He does not force us to accept Him. But we must in order to receive our inheritance.

and that takes our free will away... how?

Being Omnipotent is one thing. However God has choosen to let us do what we will. He does not force us to accept Him. But we must in order to receive our inheritance.

I've allready explained this to somone else, go back a page and read my explanation

Well, i'm going to *again* invoke Heikoku's thread, "come 'n get me, pseudo-christians" ....
There wasn't very much that thread didn't cover, over 100 pages if i remember correctly!
It's worth an exhumation for argument, since apparently a lot of people like to argue about this kind of thing ....
;)

I understand your point but you've not addressed mine, The point is that The very concept of our Free will goes against the Christian concept of god, while I personally would like to beleive that we do have free will, there is evidence to suggest that The way we are and think is determined through conditioning and a million other factors which we can not controle, and if god knows how we are going to be before we even exist, then how can we break away from what God has always known? If we can't then we have no free will, and if we can, then god is not truly Omniscient, so why call him god? .

Perhaps the way we think can be influenced by things beyond our control such as society or our upbringing but ultimately what you do is up to you. God being omniscient does not negate free will. He simply knows what choices we are going to make. That does not change things since knowing does not require forcing a choice. We still made the choice of our own accord and thus have free will. God being Omniscient just means he KNOWS what choice we'll make before we make it.

and that takes our free will away... how?

Being Omnipotent is one thing. However God has choosen to let us do what we will. He does not force us to accept Him. But we must in order to receive our inheritance.

I realise someone's answered this already, but I'll do it again in my words.

Ok, we don't technically lose free will. God could be omnipotent and omniscient, and do nothing. There is, however, the small problem that this causes. Most Christians (whom I've come across) use the "free will" argument to explain how people can do such horrible things. But that simply doesn't hold water.

An omniscient God can see what people are going to do. An omnipotent God can stop people from doing evil things. More importantly, he can do the logically impossible; such as control us but still give us free will.

Hence, if God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, he is evil and malevolent. He could have prevented any evil actions of humanity. And yet...he hasn't!

Perhaps the way we think can be influenced by things beyond our control such as society or our upbringing but ultimately what you do is up to you. God being omniscient does not negate free will. He simply knows what choices we are going to make. That does not change things since knowing does not require forcing a choice. We still made the choice of our own accord and thus have free will. God being Omniscient just means he KNOWS what choice we'll make before we make it.

So how can we make choices? We can't make any kind of decision either way, because God already knows what I'm going to do. It's determinism.

I've allready explained this to somone else, go back a page and read my explanationyou mean this explination?
Hoo boy, this is going to be painfull...Ok, supposing god is ( as christians understand him to be) Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, Now, focusing on the omniscience, god knows all and sees all, he knew he was going to create the earth, he knew how we were going to turn out, he just plain old knows everything, so if god knows how we're all going to be right from the very beginning, so If the way we are we would always have been, then do we really have free will, or is our existance determined by destiny?
simple, When God knows all, that means that when a choice is to be made, he knows the path of each choice. until we make that choice, both paths are true and viable. when we make that choice, he knows where we are going. so to help us when we make a wrong choice, he places another choice ahead for us to once more get on the right path.

Free will and Omniscient.

for example. Have your friend drive to an area he is unfamiliar with. You hold the map and don't let him see it. As he drives, you have omnisciense. you know all the paths to the destination. if he wants to stop and ask for direction, let him. he just cannot pick up a map. now every now and then, whisper (Left, Right, Straight.) should he choose wrong, don't say anything, but those directions.

if he (the faithful) belives in you (God for this exercise) then he will reach his destination. should he not listen to you, then he doesn't.

that's how you can have Free Will with a God that is Omniscient.

for example. Have your friend drive to an area he is unfamiliar with. You hold the map and don't let him see it. As he drives, you have omnisciense. you know all the paths to the destination. if he wants to stop and ask for direction, let him. he just cannot pick up a map. now every now and then, whisper (Left, Right, Straight.) should he choose wrong, don't say anything, but those directions.

That's not omniscience, though. Omniscience would be that, if you came to a junction, you would KNOW which way he would go. You wouldn't "whisper" anything to him, he wouldn't look at the map, or say anything to you. You would simply KNOW where he was going to go. He can't have free will in the matter, because if he did, you wouldn't know where he'd go. If you know for a fact that he will turn left, he has no free will to go right.

Let's start with a few assumptions for the purposes of this post:

1. Given that the Christian God exists.
2. Given that the only 'proof' of this is a text known as 'The Bible.'
3. Given that the Bible, as the 'revealed word' of this god, can be held as accurate.

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22)

It says right here that the difference between man and god is immortality, NOT understanding. Our capacity to understand good and evil is LIKE GOD'S.

Therefore, if you believe the Bible, no more stuff about us not understanding why God does the things he does. If we think it WRONG to smash an infant's head against a rock, then this god must also consider it immoral.

If you don't believe in the Bible, then you don't believe that the Christian god exists and the point is moot.


Oh, and by the way, the OT was translated from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English and practically every other language known to man, but the version of the Bible that I'm looking at, the NIV, is as direct a translation of the original stories and texts as possible. Hebrew doesn't employ a royal 'we', so who is this guy talking to?

That's not omniscience, though. Omniscience would be that, if you came to a junction, you would KNOW which way he would go. You wouldn't "whisper" anything to him, he wouldn't look at the map, or say anything to you. You would simply KNOW where he was going to go. He can't have free will in the matter, because if he did, you wouldn't know where he'd go. If you know for a fact that he will turn left, he has no free will to go right.you are confusing Omniscence with Presicence. until the choice is made all things are possible. only once the choice is made, whether in your heart or mind, then the path becomes clear.

Presicience or Foresight allows one to see which choice wll be made but also allows that person to change their choice if given sufficent reason to. "Don't go that way, the road is washed out" would be how precience would work.

the Map is just to give you the sence of Omniscence that God may have.

the Whispering is how God would influence your choice. tho His way would be through Scripture, people you meet or other's experience.

Eh, because a perfect God cannot be imperfect, according to the logical law of nocontradiction.

Not saying that God has to be completely logical by our standards, but I am saying that is the best as I can figure to know. Since He can be described in human terms, I think I may at least use logic where it applies.

1) Then he can't be all-powerful. An all-powerful being gets to DECIDE what is and isn't perfect, and change it at whim.

Let's start with a few assumptions for the purposes of this post:

1. Given that the Christian God exists.
2. Given that the only 'proof' of this is a text known as 'The Bible.'
3. Given that the Bible, as the 'revealed word' of this god, can be held as accurate.

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22)

It says right here that the difference between man and god is immortality, NOT understanding. Our capacity to understand good and evil is LIKE GOD'S.

Therefore, if you believe the Bible, no more stuff about us not understanding why God does the things he does. If we think it WRONG to smash an infant's head against a rock, then this god must also consider it immoral.

If you don't believe in the Bible, then you don't believe that the Christian god exists and the point is moot.


Oh, and by the way, the OT was translated from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English and practically every other language known to man, but the version of the Bible that I'm looking at, the NIV, is as direct a translation of the original stories and texts as possible. Hebrew doesn't employ a royal 'we', so who is this guy talking to?

A friend of mine decided that us=The Trinity. I just kind of stared at her for a second. It's easy to argue about since it's the only we I know of in the book, but it was the closest thing to a logical argument on the subject I'd ever seen, and she only knows what she's had preached at her in church.

1) Then he can't be all-powerful. An all-powerful being gets to DECIDE what is and isn't perfect, and change it at whim.or he can exersice his Perfect control by not changing it at a whim but seeing what man will do when he screws up.

or he can exersice his Perfect control by not changing it at a whim but seeing what man will do when he screws up.

Which is to be tortured in hell for all eternity based on other 'perfect' rules he 'had' to make the universe out of.

A friend of mine decided that us=The Trinity. I just kind of stared at her for a second. It's easy to argue about since it's the only we I know of in the book, but it was the closest thing to a logical argument on the subject I'd ever seen, and she only knows what she's had preached at her in church.

But Christianity is monotheistic, and the Trinity idea is merely the illustration of the concept of god as multifaceted. Also, it was a way to avoid questions like "If god was born as Jesus, then does that mean that when Jesus lived there was no god in heaven?" If the trinity actually represents separate entities who talk to each other, then Jesus is not god or perfect; there can be only one perfect god (In the Christian lexicon, anyway. We'll ignore polytheism for now.) and anything different, outside, or other must be imperfect.

It varies by group, and, like I said, easily argued.

But its as close to a non-stupid-as-hell explanation I've ever heard.

Point taken. I gotta admit that stumped me for a minute, and I love devil's advocacy, lol. ;)

But it does make one wonder if Judaism began as a polytheistic religion, doesn't it?

For the record, God has always been a just, yet loving God. He warned Adam about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It wasn't as if He decided after the disobedience of humanity what the propitiation would be. Too, as a perfect God, and as the wages of sin are death, He cannot allow imperfection into His perfection. It would make for His imperfection. Thus, He is not willing those that die without the saving knowledge of Him to go to hell. He has no choice.


Yet God put the tree there in the first place. If God really has foreknowledge, he would have known that man would have eaten the fruit of the tree, yet he made it anyway. He made the punishment for eating the fruit that he already knew we would take. So it was not surprising to God that they disobeyed. He would have known they would.


Humanity is going to hell already. It is from God's mercy and love that He provided an alternative that both satisfied the payment for sin, yet also allowed sinful beings to be justified, thus being able to come into perfection after death on earth.


God allows humanity to go to hell. He can stop us from suffering eternal punishment. God made the punishment eternal suffering in hell, why?


God has never, in fact, been able to excuse sin outright. There must always be atonement for it, as ugly as that sounds. The difference is from where the atonement comes. If one accepts the substitutionary death provided by Jesus Christ, then their own death becomes unnecessary for payment, because the death of the perfect and infinite Christ was sufficient to cover all sins possible (unless you are a 5.0 Calvinist ;) ). Thus, the belief in God alone does nothing to make payment for the sin, as anyone can believe in God. The Devil does (Though, I will admit that he likely had proof. ;) ) and I don't think he is headed for heaven.


Why cant God excuse sin? Could he not give us some kind of punishment for it that does not end up with us suffering for all time? He says there is a way out in Jesus, yet we have no reason to believe its all real except the Bible. Why does God feel he needs to use the Bible as his only means? God can visit us in person if he wanted. You might say that if God walked amongst us that would eleminate faith. Why does he require faith to begin with? Why do we have to guess that he is real? God walked amongst people in the Old Testament but doesnt anymore. Does he really feel that he needs to stay up in heaven and let us run around in confusion?


Secluded Islands, I have felt the way you do. I have not actually been a Christian as long as you, but I already have my Masters in Theological Studies, and I will tell you that, with a proper understanding, the Bible does depict a just, yet merciful, God.

Curious side note: Where did you study for your degree in religious studies?


I just cant see a just and loving God. He has a chosen people yet murders others, and even kills off his one people. Why did he kill people because David took a census? David sinned, yet God killed like 70000 people for it.

My area of study is general, but with focus on 2nd Temple Judaism. I took some classes in Louisiville Bible College. But I am at Western Kentucky University for the degree and I am also finishing up a History degree as we speak.


Again, I am not going to say that love means that we all just live a happy-go-lucky existence with no pain, suffering, agony, hurt, or violence. I assert that God holds none of those things against us and that He only allows them in a temporary life with both a beginning and an end, whereas He will present an eternal state which will be absent of those.


Why did God feel like making this world with pain, suffering, agony, hurt and violent when he could have made an eternal state absent of those to begin with?


Sometimes I still feel the way you do, Secluded Islands. I have learned, however, that trusting what I feel and trusting what I know are two different things. Regardless of what I feel like God is doing, I can know that He knows things I don't and works in ways of which I could never dream.


Yes, I know we couldnt fathom Gods mind, but I feel that what i know and feel can help me understand God. I dont like what I see. It may not matter what I like, but when I look at the Bible I dont understand Gods decisions and his nature. I dont like the "strike them down" attitude.


God did, in fact, create the world in perfection. It claims, after every completed day, that He said it was good. However, in giving humanity the ability to choose their actions instead of being little zombies, He gave them the ability to exercise will. It was not God, in fact, who corrupted creation, but humanity. He originally did create everything so that all humanity would have communion with Himself. As a result of the fall of humanity, this was corrupted. He still makes a way, but as is true with all relationships, there must be communion on both sides. If a man does not believe in God, how can there be communion?

If a man does not beleive in God that is a peroblem that God should address. Obviously something is wrong with the system God put in place. If they dont believe in God, that means God is absent.. If God is absent, one cannot be expected that that God really exists.

Why did God allow us to corrupt his world? He could have kept it perfect without keeping us from having free will. Will we be able to corrupt heaven? Surely we would have free will in heaven. If we have free will in heaven, will we be able to corrupt it?

Originally posted by Troon
Ok, we don't technically lose free will. God could be omnipotent and omniscient, and do nothing. There is, however, the small problem that this causes. Most Christians (whom I've come across) use the "free will" argument to explain how people can do such horrible things. But that simply doesn't hold water.
I am willing to hear this out.

An omniscient God can see what people are going to do. An omnipotent God can stop people from doing evil things. More importantly, he can do the logically impossible; such as control us but still give us free will.
True, though I would assert that He doesn't defy logic in this instance.

Hence, if God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, he is evil and malevolent. He could have prevented any evil actions of humanity. And yet...he hasn't!
Okay, let me see if I can explain this with clarity.

As we hold it, God is an infinite being. With me so far?

As a creation, man is a finite being. Still okay?

As man is finite, he has a set number of options from which to choose, making there only so many things he is able to do throughout his lifetime. This limited number, though too high for humanity to comprehend, still exists.

God, being an infinite being, is able to comprehend all these options, thus no only the option we will choose, but every single option we could choose, so that whatever we do, it is within the realm of His knowledge. In essence, He knows every possible option we have so completely that no matter what we choose to do, God knew that option prior to us taking it.

In this way, God does defy logic in that He can comprehend every available option that humanity can have, but is able, in His complete knowledge of our state, to know what we will do and still give us free choice, because He knows every choice we could possibly take.

Did I make sense?

Originally posted by Incenjucarania
Originally Posted by Aluminumia
Eh, because a perfect God cannot be imperfect, according to the logical law of nocontradiction.

Not saying that God has to be completely logical by our standards, but I am saying that is the best as I can figure to know. Since He can be described in human terms, I think I may at least use logic where it applies.



1) Then he can't be all-powerful. An all-powerful being gets to DECIDE what is and isn't perfect, and change it at whim.

Why can He not be all-powerful? In essence, He cannot change the definition of perfect because He is perfect. Here, let me see if I can explain myself a little better.

As God is the epitome of perfect, to change the definition of perfect would be to change Himself, as He is perfect. Since Scripture claims that He is timeless, He simply is, and does not change. Thus, if He were to change the definition of perfect, either He would have to become something other than what He is, or He would no longer be perfect.

To put it more appropriately, perfect is not a definition of God, but God is the definition of perfect. To change the definition of perfect is to change the character of God, who has said He would not change.

Think about it. If God was to change, then He would not become as reliable. One who is unchanging is more sturdy and definite than one who would be changing.

I am glad you asked, though. If I don't explain myself well, then someone should call me on it. Thank you.

Originally posted by Secluded Islands
Yet God put the tree there in the first place. If God really has foreknowledge, he would have known that man would have eaten the fruit of the tree, yet he made it anyway. He made the punishment for eating the fruit that he already knew we would take. So it was not surprising to God that they disobeyed. He would have known they would.
Refer to my explanation to Troon. Before they ate the fruit, God knew they would. Before they ate it, if they had never decided to, God would have known it. He knows all the potential options, and not just the option that is taken.

In addition, God did in fact put the tree there. If there was only one option, to obey God, then is there really a choice? If man had no ability to choose against God, can he even really choose God? Thus, God had one, simple rule. That was it. He basically gave them the option to choose God and life or sin and death. If there is no real choice, they cannot, in their finity, choose God.

God allows humanity to go to hell. He can stop us from suffering eternal punishment. God made the punishment eternal suffering in hell, why?
I will address each statement individually.

God allows humanity to go to hell. ~ True. As humanity is imperfect, he allows them to exercise their imperfect will. He has provided an alternative for anyone who will accept it. Basically, there is nothing preventing anyone from being saved from this eternity apart from them exercising their imperfect will against Him. He allows it because He is just, and sin must be paid for, in full. The physical death of humanity is not the full payment for an imperfect being. Eternal death is the payment for such. The other option is accepting the substitutionary death of the perfect being, which was infinitely able to pay the debt.

He can stop us from suffering eternal punishment. ~ Absolutely. That is exactly what salvation is. It is how God, in His wisdom, has created a way for humanity to be saved from hell and yet have their sin debt still paid in full. Other than that, He cannot do so, as He is the definition of perfect and sin is the definition of imperfect.

Think of it this way. If there is a perfectly pure glass of water, and I decide to put some green food coloring into it, is the glass able to maintain its purity? It is not. Thus, the salvation provided for us is a way of removing that "food coloring" from ourselves, thus making us able to be accepted into the "pure water."

God made the punishment eternal suffering in hell, why? ~ Because He still maintains His justice. Neither His mercy nor His justice are minimized by the other. They co-exist through the gift of salvation, as the sin is paid in full, and yet humanity is able to be saved.

Why cant God excuse sin? Could he not give us some kind of punishment for it that does not end up with us suffering for all time?
He cannot, because sin is completely imperfect. It is the anti- of perfect, I suppose you could say. It is the opposite of God. Therefore, its absolution is impossible apart from ultimate death, as God is ultimate life.

[I]He says there is a way out in Jesus, yet we have no reason to believe its all real except the Bible. Why does God feel he needs to use the Bible as his only means? God can visit us in person if he wanted. You might say that if God walked amongst us that would eleminate faith. Why does he require faith to begin with?
Without faith, there is no exercise of will. If God proved Himself to every person, could you not believe in Him? Would there be any option, or would we become nothing but little zombies, who cannot help but believe in God? The fact is, faith is an act of our ability to exercise our will.

Why do we have to guess that he is real?
I am not guessing. ;)

God walked amongst people in the Old Testament but doesnt anymore. Does he really feel that he needs to stay up in heaven and let us run around in confusion?[/QUOTE]
If you will notice, He did not walk with absolutely everyone in the Old Testament, and most of those He did walk with already believed in Him. Those who did not see Him required as much faith as we do today. Those who did see Him were no less convinced before they saw Him.

I hope I have helped. I am, by no means, downplaying any of your concerns or questions. I have asked most, if not all, of them. I am just letting you into my mind and letting you see the answers I have found.

Hey Aluminumia, I sent you a Telegram like a week ago. I dont know if you have gotten it, but i sent it in response to one of you posts a while back. Sorry for not letting you know that.

Point taken. I gotta admit that stumped me for a minute, and I love devil's advocacy, lol. ;)

But it does make one wonder if Judaism began as a polytheistic religion, doesn't it?

It's not something to wonder about, it DID.

It's not something to wonder about, it DID.

SO then if Judaism evolved to monotheism, at one point they believed in other Gods. What happened to them, do you think? I guess that would explain why making something "in his image" involved genitalia.

1) If god is all-powerful, he can make perfect flexible.

2) If god is perfect, why did he allow for the imperfecting of existance?

3) If god is all-powerful and perfect, then he would be capable of creating beings which had free will, yet were a weaker version of perfect.

4) If god were all-powerful and perfect, then the existance of imperfection wouldn't mean anything to him, and he could abide by sin all he wanted.

5) If Perfection takes away choices, then perfection cannot work with being all-powerful. So god is either imperfect, or finite in power.

Originally posted by Secluded Islands
I just cant see a just and loving God. He has a chosen people yet murders others, and even kills off his one people. Why did he kill people because David took a census? David sinned, yet God killed like 70000 people for it.
I cannot explain everything about God, and I will not attempt to try. Why did He do thus to the people of Israel? It could be the fact that they wanted a king so many yeas ago. As a king is the representative of the people as a whole, and the people as a whole wanted that king anyway, they ignored the fact that they would be held responsible as a whole for the king's actions and decisions that related to his authority of the nation. I am not going to say that this is the answer, but it's what I could think off the top of my head.

Also, who is to say what happened to those people after death? They could've been sent to Paradise.

My area of study is general, but with focus on 2nd Temple Judaism. I took some classes in Louisiville Bible College. But I am at Western Kentucky University for the degree and I am also finishing up a History degree as we speak.
Ah, I have heard of Louisville Bible College. Don't know much about it. I personally went to Grace College and then their Theological Seminary.

And a History degree? You would get along well with a friend of mine, who is still the dean of academics at Grace.

Why did God feel like making this world with pain, suffering, agony, hurt and violent when he could have made an eternal state absent of those to begin with?
In truth, He did. It was man exercising his will that brought the imperfection. If He had denied us the ability to exercise that will, we would not be in the imago dei.

I dont like the "strike them down" attitude.
But you have assumed this is an attitude. If you will notice, in the New Testament, this is not the case, because the sin nature has been paid in full. The only thing left is to accept that payment. As God is unchanging, I don't think it was an attitude, but His justice.

I know the idea of a just God is not as attractive as one who is merciful. You will find a lot of churches that downplay one side or another, because they have an agenda that they want God to fit. I let God be and try to understand Him. He has created a way for justice and mercy to co-exist and I will take neither away.

If a man does not beleive in God that is a peroblem that God should address.
I disagree. If man does not believe in God, then I think that is a problem that man needs to address. God is not held accountable to us. It is the other way around.

Obviously something is wrong with the system God put in place.
Yes, there is. However, this problem was not in existence from the beginning. It was integrated, by man, into the perfect creation.

If they dont believe in God, that means God is absent..
Untrue. It simply means they have rejected what does not seem to cater to their desires for belief. Something being present has nothing to do with whether or not there is belief in it. If I do not believe in hate, does that mean it doesn't exist in my life? Not at all. Maybe I don't want to see it, so I don't. Maybe I am not looking. Maybe there is another reason of which I am unaware. That doesn't mean it is not present.

If God is absent, one cannot be expected that that God really exists. [sic]
I will give you that, althought I don't want to be misinterpreted. If God is absent, then it is ludicrous to believe in Him. If God feels absent, then I can still believe in Him, because I do not trust what I feel, but what I know.

Why did God allow us to corrupt his world? He could have kept it perfect without keeping us from having free will.
How? If they were unable to choose against God, would they have had the option of choosing God? I honestly believe that they must have had that ability in order to have free will.

Will we be able to corrupt heaven?
Well, as sin will be forever separated from us, I would say no, but you are asking me about a place that has never been seen by anyone I have ever read or talked to. I don't claim to know about heaven.

Surely we would have free will in heaven. If we have free will in heaven, will we be able to corrupt it?
As sin will be eternally separated from us, I would say no. As odd as this sounds, I would say that we will not have free will in the sense that we do now, as the option of corruption and imperfection will be taken away. In addition, we will have already exercised our free will in regards to God, which would explain why we were in heaven. Thus, I believe we will still have free will, but not in the ability to reject or accept God, as we had already made our choice in that matter.

Hey Aluminumia, I sent you a Telegram like a week ago. I dont know if you have gotten it, but i sent it in response to one of you posts a while back. Sorry for not letting you know that.
Hey, yeah, I got it. I could have sworn I had sent you one in return, but I thank you for it, and I am sorry if my message didn't get sent. Don't sweat it, with the letting me know. It's no problem.

Originally posted by Incenjucarania
1) If god is all-powerful, he can make perfect flexible.
If perfect is all-powerful, can it make the perfect change without changing? No. In addition, the very definition of perfect is one that implies a lack of flexibility. Perfect is 100%. There is no margin.

2) If god is perfect, why did he allow for the imperfecting of existance?
See exercising of humanity's will.

3) If god is all-powerful and perfect, then he would be capable of creating beings which had free will, yet were a weaker version of perfect.
Perfect is perfect. If anything is any less, then it is not perfect.

4) If god were all-powerful and perfect, then the existance of imperfection wouldn't mean anything to him, and he could abide by sin all he wanted.
This is assuming that God is finite, yet perfect, as well as assuming that heaven is not perfect. In essence, it would mean everything to Him.

5) If Perfection takes away choices, then perfection cannot work with being all-powerful. So god is either imperfect, or finite in power.
Perfection does not take away all choice. It merely takes away the ability to be imperfect. Basically, you are arguing that because perfect cannot be less tha perfect, then it is less than all-powerful. Let me ask you this: If all-powerful cannot make itself less than all-powerful, is it not, then, all-powerful, simply because it cannot make itself less powerful than it is?

Yes.

The instant you have "Can not", then there's a lack of power.

-I- can make myself less powerful, by chopping off one of my fingers.

So I have a power an all-powerful entity lacks.

I am also capable of sin. Another thing that entity cannot do. It's not that it just doesn't, but as a perfect being, it CANNOT.

I disagree. If man does not believe in God, then I think that is a problem that man needs to address. God is not held accountable to us. It is the other way around.

I see it the other way around. How can a man address that problem? What gives us the reason to believe in God? The bible is supposedly his revealed word, but how can we beleive it? Its a book of words. Why should we believe that it comes from God? I think that it IS gods responsibility to reveal himself to man, so that he may beleive. If he doesnt i dont see how man can be responsible.


Well, as sin will be forever separated from us, I would say no, but you are asking me about a place that has never been seen by anyone I have ever read or talked to. I don't claim to know about heaven.

As sin will be eternally separated from us, I would say no. As odd as this sounds, I would say that we will not have free will in the sense that we do now, as the option of corruption and imperfection will be taken away. In addition, we will have already exercised our free will in regards to God, which would explain why we were in heaven. Thus, I believe we will still have free will, but not in the ability to reject or accept God, as we had already made our choice in that matter.

Why did God originally create us with the option of corruption and imperfection? If he wanted a perfect creation, why create a way to destroy it? I regards to heaven, Why did got not start with heaven? It is a perfect place without pain, suffering or corruption. We would be subject to God, but still have our free will.

If God did not foresee mans choice to rebel, he is not all-knowing. He had to of known we would take the fruit of the tree and mess up his creation. All he had to do is not create that certain way for it all to come crumbling down. What was the real need for the tree to exist? It had one purpose and that was to corrupt the world. It must have been Gods purpose to happen, otherwise it would not have been there. I certainly wouldnt expect a tree like that in heaven, because i doubt man could ruin it. If we cant ruin heaven, God can create a world in which we had free will and did not rebel. So it seems logical that God would originally create heaven, and not this current world that we have.

I see it the other way around. How can a man address that problem? What gives us the reason to believe in God? The bible is supposedly his revealed word, but how can we beleive it? Its a book of words. Why should we believe that it comes from God? I think that it IS gods responsibility to reveal himself to man, so that he may beleive. If he doesnt i dont see how man can be responsible.Should God reveal himself, then it's no longer Faith or Belief but FACT. God wants our Faith and Belief. If he has to prove himself to you, then your Belief and Faith are non-exsistant and empty.
Why did God originally create us with the option of corruption and imperfection? If he wanted a perfect creation, why create a way to destroy it? I regards to heaven, Why did got not start with heaven? It is a perfect place without pain, suffering or corruption. We would be subject to God, but still have our free will. the Serpent is the Great Corrupter. he used sweet words and logic to separate Man from God. Thus man became imperfect.

You want to go to Heaven... you can. All you need are the keys and you can easily get them.

If God did not foresee mans choice to rebel, he is not all-knowing. He had to of known we would take the fruit of the tree and mess up his creation. All he had to do is not create that certain way for it all to come crumbling down. What was the real need for the tree to exist? It had one purpose and that was to corrupt the world. It must have been Gods purpose to happen, otherwise it would not have been there. I certainly wouldnt expect a tree like that in heaven, because i doubt man could ruin it. If we cant ruin heaven, God can create a world in which we had free will and did not rebel. So it seems logical that God would originally create heaven, and not this current world that we have.and the Earth was like Heaven... untill guess what. Man decided he didn't need God.

All knowing does not include Future sight.

Yes.

The instant you have "Can not", then there's a lack of power.

-I- can make myself less powerful, by chopping off one of my fingers.

So I have a power an all-powerful entity lacks.

I am also capable of sin. Another thing that entity cannot do. It's not that it just doesn't, but as a perfect being, it CANNOT.

I see the true definition of an All-Powerful being as one that has all the capable power. An all-powerful being could not make himself less powerful because that power does not exists. There is not lack of power if God cannot make himself less powerful, because that power in itself does not exist.

Should God reveal himself, then it's no longer Faith or Belief but FACT. God wants our Faith and Belief. If he has to prove himself to you, then your Belief and Faith are non-exsistant and empty.

God walked with Adam and Eve and everything seemed ok. Why should he want us to have this Faith? If he revealed himself, man has no excuse if he does not follow God. Satan and his demons believe in God, yet they do not follow him. He must prove himself to exist. If he doesnt there is no reason to think he does exist.


the Serpent is the Great Corrupter. he used sweet words and logic to separate Man from God. Thus man became imperfect.


Then dont create the Serpent. God created the tree which led to corruption and also that serpent that led to corruption. Dont create the things that cause corruption and you wont have corruption.


You want to go to Heaven... you can. All you need are the keys and you can easily get them.

Which religion is true? I have no guidance to chose which is right. There are innumerous doors infront of me. Which one am I to take? The real God must show up so that he can point out the right door. Whether or not i chose to go through is something else. But it is Gods responsibility to point out the right path to being with.


and the Earth was like Heaven... untill guess what. Man decided he didn't need God.

Heaven cannot be corrupted. Earth can, therefore, earth was not like heaven.


All knowing does not include Future sight.

Then God does not know the future. If he does not know the future, he cannot make prophecy. The Bible is full of it. Therefore, God knows what will happen. He knows our choices.

I see the true definition of an All-Powerful being as one that has all the capable power. An all-powerful being could not make himself less powerful because that power does not exists. There is not lack of power if God cannot make himself less powerful, because that power in itself does not exist.

Sorry, but what makes "Can make angels" more reasonable as a power than "Can change his mind"?

Making a choice is something an imperfect being can do. If the deity cannot make the choice to forgive people sin NO MATTER WHAT, while a human can forgive anyone of anything if they so feel, then it lacks a power that its own creations have. Thus, not all-powerful.

Sorry, but what makes "Can make angels" more reasonable as a power than "Can change his mind"?

Making a choice is something an imperfect being can do. If the deity cannot make the choice to forgive people sin NO MATTER WHAT, while a human can forgive anyone of anything if they so feel, then it lacks a power that its own creations have. Thus, not all-powerful.

I dont know. ;) I truly dont understand why God doesnt forgive us. He will if we "ask for it and beleive in jesus." But I dont know how I can be expected to beleive in something i have no proof for.

I dont think that an all-powerful being can do anything. I think an all-powerful being can do all that can be done. Making itself less-powerful cannot be done. We as humans are not all-powerful, therfore can make ourselves less-powerful by removing our fingers like you used for an example.

The trick is, if the deity was 'imperfect', and thus flexible, it would have MORE power than it does now.

To be All-Powerful requires it to be without any limits beyond what reality allows.

To be all-powerful requires it, thus, to be imperfect, as a human with similar abilities would be MUCH more able to act.

A human, for example, is free to ignore the assenine Christian version of Justice (Wherein you all suXor because some jackass ate fruit). A human with power over all existance could say "Hey, you know what, you didn't pray to me, you didn't accept me, and you fought against my book your entire life. But you helped everyone you could, you saved lives, and you followed your conscience. You know what, screw my rules, I won't send you to hell."

And remember, again, the deity was self-creating, so it created all these rules and limits to begin with.

While the deity has more powers than a human, it is also more limited in choices than a human. It cannot honestly be said to be all-powerful, thus, nor even at maximum possible power. Only very powerful. Like Zeus and such.

I'm seriously printing out a few pages of this and bringing it to school monday and leaving it on a couple of peoples' desks. They'll go berserk. XD

I stopped reading after a few pages because it was basically going nowhere fast. It basically turned into "God was a dirty SOB because he wanted to be. Oh yeah, and it was for the good of humanity!" Then there was the great "The children were killed for the good of us all." And then the "Who cares? It's the Old Testament (like that's part of the Bible, anyway?! lawlz!)." Then of course the "God loves us, he just has to smite humanity every once in awhile." And then "Who are you to judge Him? He >>>>> j00. Lawlz. What if he thinks he's being loving when he purges a city when Onan goes at it?"

Yeah, some of that is out of context, I'll admit. But the arguements CAN all LOGICALLY be extended to the point that I've outlined them above. *shrugs* I think this arguement is pointless and both sides are being REALLY dumb.

As fun as these perspectives are... they don't really address the issue that well. All that's really been said is that sure God loves us, but He can do whatever he wants to because of it. If that means sending rabid animals to tear children apart for laughing at a prophet, so be it!

And I don't think the topic is really trolling... There's some people who run around here parading the Christian God as the 00ber nice guy of nice guys. I think that whether you like it or not, you have to admit that He's done some pretty devious stuff over the years. *shrugs*

I know someone will end up saying that I'm trolling or flaming or whatever, but I'll be more than happy to tear that apart when someone points out exactly where I'm flaming.

I<snip>

Eh, everyone has thier own opinions and that happens to be yours. ;)

The trick is, if the deity was 'imperfect', and thus flexible, it would have MORE power than it does now.

To be All-Powerful requires it to be without any limits beyond what reality allows.

To be all-powerful requires it, thus, to be imperfect, as a human with similar abilities would be MUCH more able to act.

A human, for example, is free to ignore the assenine Christian version of Justice (Wherein you all suXor because some jackass ate fruit). A human with power over all existance could say "Hey, you know what, you didn't pray to me, you didn't accept me, and you fought against my book your entire life. But you helped everyone you could, you saved lives, and you followed your conscience. You know what, screw my rules, I won't send you to hell."

And remember, again, the deity was self-creating, so it created all these rules and limits to begin with.

While the deity has more powers than a human, it is also more limited in choices than a human. It cannot honestly be said to be all-powerful, thus, nor even at maximum possible power. Only very powerful. Like Zeus and such.

Well you do have a good argument. I'll have to chew on that for a little bit. Its time to eat, so i must go for now....

I'm seriously printing out a few pages of this and bringing it to school monday and leaving it on a couple of peoples' desks. They'll go berserk. XD

I stopped reading after a few pages because it was basically going nowhere fast. It basically turned into "God was a dirty SOB because he wanted to be. Oh yeah, and it was for the good of humanity!" Then there was the great "The children were killed for the good of us all." And then the "Who cares? It's the Old Testament (like that's part of the Bible, anyway?! lawlz!)." Then of course the "God loves us, he just has to smite humanity every once in awhile." And then "Who are you to judge Him? He >>>>> j00. Lawlz. What if he thinks he's being loving when he purges a city when Onan goes at it?"

Yeah, some of that is out of context, I'll admit. But the arguements CAN all LOGICALLY be extended to the point that I've outlined them above. *shrugs* I think this arguement is pointless and both sides are being REALLY dumb.

As fun as these perspectives are... they don't really address the issue that well. All that's really been said is that sure God loves us, but He can do whatever he wants to because of it. If that means sending rabid animals to tear children apart for laughing at a prophet, so be it!

And I don't think the topic is really trolling... There's some people who run around here parading the Christian God as the 00ber nice guy of nice guys. I think that whether you like it or not, you have to admit that He's done some pretty devious stuff over the years. *shrugs*

I know someone will end up saying that I'm trolling or flaming or whatever, but I'll be more than happy to tear that apart when someone points out exactly where I'm flaming.

Thing is, this isn't all that different from how the professionals argue.

Well you do have a good argument. I'll have to chew on that for a little bit. Its time to eat, so i must go for now....

Enjoy.

God walked with Adam and Eve and everything seemed ok. Why should he want us to have this Faith? If he revealed himself, man has no excuse if he does not follow God. Satan and his demons believe in God, yet they do not follow him. He must prove himself to exist. If he doesnt there is no reason to think he does exist.if you truly believed that God walked with Adam and Eve, then you have your proof right there.

if you don't believe that, then there is NOTHING that God can do that will make you believe... Even if he were to Peek through the clouds and say "Hi there!" you would surmise that it was just some freak sunspot activity or just Mass Hallucination.

Moses performed Miricles infront of the Pharoah and still he didn't believe. Jesus Performed Miricles infront of the people and still most didn't believe. what makes you think things would be different now.

he left his word. he left archives of his deeds. and if people then didn't believe, People now still won't believe.

Which religion is true? I have no guidance to chose which is right. There are innumerous doors infront of me. Which one am I to take? The real God must show up so that he can point out the right door. Whether or not i chose to go through is something else. But it is Gods responsibility to point out the right path to being with.and he will... He has his servants of whom you can question. Talk to the Various Priests of each denomination untill you find one that feels comfortable to you.

Talk with the Pastors, ask them the same questions posed here, and from those answers, make your decision.

Heaven cannot be corrupted. Earth can, therefore, earth was not like heaven. Key word... LIKE... not IS... LIKE.. as in Similar but not the Same. Earth was a paradise. until the first sin.
Then God does not know the future. If he does not know the future, he cannot make prophecy. The Bible is full of it. Therefore, God knows what will happen. He knows our choices.

As for Prophesy... who fulfills them? God? so why wouldn't he know what he's gonna do in the future. I can say on Wednesday, I will go and have flat bread with cooked veggies, dairy products, and meats with my companions. Just because I am planning on taking a pizza to a friends house this coming wednesday does not make me a prophet.

I can make a list of To Do and I don't claim forsight.

However, lacking Gods Omnisceince. his ability to see all paths, it's easier for my To Do list not to get done.

Please give me your definition for the following.
Faith:
Belief:
Knowledge:

if you truly believed that God walked with Adam and Eve, then you have your proof right there.

if you don't believe that, then there is NOTHING that God can do that will make you believe... Even if he were to Peek through the clouds and say "Hi there!" you would surmise that it was just some freak sunspot activity or just Mass Hallucination.

Moses performed Miricles infront of the Pharoah and still he didn't believe. Jesus Performed Miricles infront of the people and still most didn't believe. what makes you think things would be different now.


The bible says God walked with adam and eve. I dont beleive it however. No, i would believe in god if he revealed himself. I did not witness the miracles of moses or jesus, so i dont know how i will respond to them. God should know what it would take for someone to beleive. If he doesnt do it, who fault is that? If God can see what it would take to save someone and doesnt do it how is that loving? Instead of revealing himself that would make that person beleive, he does nothing and that person dies and goes to hell. There is no proof of God. The bible is not proof. The last time i looked there was also the Koran, amongst many others that are supposedly the real truth. How am I to chose?

He has his servants of whom you can question. Talk to the Various Priests of each denomination untill you find one that feels comfortable to you.

Talk with the Pastors, ask them the same questions posed here, and from those answers, make your decision. Key word... LIKE... not IS... LIKE.. as in Similar but not the Same. Earth was a paradise. until the first sin.


I wasnt referring to denominations, i was referring to other religions. What makes one more believable then another? How am i to know that *this book* is real and *this book* is not? There is no way. I do know a way for me to know which is real. God himself could tell me, but he doesnt, he puts my eternal soul in the hands of other humans. Does this sound right? No, my soul should be in the hands of God, yet he does not make any other effort to help me understand the truth. The bible has many stories that show God speaking to people and showing them the way to go. Thats all im asking for really, God to show me the truth. In todays world how do I find it without Gods intervention?


As for Prophesy... who fulfills them? God? so why wouldn't he know what he's gonna do in the future. I can say on Wednesday, I will go and have flat bread with cooked veggies, dairy products, and meats with my companions. Just because I am planning on taking a pizza to a friends house this coming wednesday does not make me a prophet.

I can make a list of To Do and I don't claim forsight.

However, lacking Gods Omnisceince. his ability to see all paths, it's easier for my To Do list not to get done.

Prophecy is about specific places and people, and God can give prophecy because he knows it will happen. He cannot know it, unless he can see it. You dont know you will take a pizza to your friends house. It is your plan to do so. With God, what he says will happen, will ultimately happen. It is already set.


Please give me your definition for the following.
Faith:
Belief:
Knowledge:

Dictionary.com Basic definitions are sufficient.

God works in mysterious ways. HE gives us the opportunity to either have faith in him or faith in less worthy idols. Those that have faith, can see the beauty in HIS creations and can enjoy an inner peace even in troubled times.

Help others, and if you can't help others, at least do them no harm.

That answered his question how? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Should God reveal himself, then it's no longer Faith or Belief but FACT. God wants our Faith and Belief. If he has to prove himself to you, then your Belief and Faith are non-exsistant and empty.



O how TERRIBLE THAT WOULD BE! All the people who will eventually go to hell for choosing the wrong religon would suddenly know the key to eternal life! WHAT A TERRIBLE CONCEPT! :rolleyes:

O how TERRIBLE THAT WOULD BE! All the people who will eventually go to hell for choosing the wrong religon would suddenly know the key to eternal life! WHAT A TERRIBLE CONCEPT! :rolleyes:thats right. You're absolutly correct.

Here is a link to where i got some things i am going to post. www.jesusreligion.com/ideas_of_god.html - Some interesting points...

If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this perfect God created a perfect universe which was rendered imperfect by the perfect humans. (If that be the case) the ultimate source of imperfection is God...

Why wouldn't God just create those with freewill, whom He knew would eventually choose Him? This is where the traditional "hell doctrine" falls apart: If God is all-knowing and still created beings whom He would have to punish and in essence destroy for an eternity, why create them at all, unless God simply is evil? God would have to be evil and not truth; for truth is unchanging and eternal. How could a perfect God of truth unjustly create evil which must be destroyed? The creation of evil then would have come from Him? His fault, ultimately, if you believe traditional christian teachings.

"The bible is supposedly God's perfect word (as taught by traditional christian doctrines). It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which He is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in His infinite wisdom, He has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the bible, as a means for avoiding the hell which He has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal His wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect men, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect men. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self-contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet, the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which He has equipped us. Surely, the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal His perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man."

"One need look to no source other than the bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures His people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers, turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of His innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil King David for taking a census!? It was the same Yahweh who allowed the humas to slaughter his Son because the perfect Yahweh had botched His own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh."

"A God who knows the future is powerless to change it."

In other words, God could not change the future from what He knows it to be. Otherwise, the outcome would be different than what He formerly knew it to be. Then, would He have really known the future the first go around? That still makes my mind twist thinking on that one!

thats right. You're absolutly correct.

You really love your fellow man don't yah? :eek:

How is it that if God were to show himself to us that we would not have faith and belief in him. I God were to reveal himself today and show that he actually exists I would believe in him more than if there was no proof.

The bible says God walked with adam and eve. I dont beleive it however. No, i would believe in god if he revealed himself. I did not witness the miracles of moses or jesus, so i dont know how i will respond to them. God should know what it would take for someone to beleive. If he doesnt do it, who fault is that? If God can see what it would take to save someone and doesnt do it how is that loving? Instead of revealing himself that would make that person beleive, he does nothing and that person dies and goes to hell. There is no proof of God. The bible is not proof. The last time i looked there was also the Koran, amongst many others that are supposedly the real truth. How am I to chose? again. how would you choose. you can rattle off every religous text known to man but did you study them.... did you read them with the Mindset to believe or with the Mindset to Debunk. If you are honestly trying to find the right religion then you will find the right one. If all you want to do is argue and be contrary. Then I suggest you go and talk to the people who will put your Doubts to rest. and they are not here on the boards, but in the Churches, Synogougs, Mosques...
I wasnt referring to denominations, i was referring to other religions. What makes one more believable then another? How am i to know that *this book* is real and *this book* is not? News flash. Islam, Christianity, Judesim, they all worship the Same God. Buddism? they worship the ideas of a Man. Hinduism... well I really can't say much about them so I won't. now in Christianity, you do have different Denominations that are separate in how they worship. so if Catholic Masses arn't for you, try the Baptists. if they aren't for you try Islam... prodestants, Jehovahs Witness... the teachings are basically the same. the Rituals are different.
There is no way. I do know a way for me to know which is real. God himself could tell me, but he doesnt, he puts my eternal soul in the hands of other humans. Does this sound right? No, my soul should be in the hands of God, yet he does not make any other effort to help me understand the truth. The bible has many stories that show God speaking to people and showing them the way to go. Thats all im asking for really, God to show me the truth. In todays world how do I find it without Gods intervention?Prayer. that's how you'll hear Gods Voice. That's how you'll see his hand in action.

it sounds Cliché but it's also true.

Prophecy is about specific places and people, and God can give prophecy because he knows it will happen. He cannot know it, unless he can see it. You dont know you will take a pizza to your friends house. It is your plan to do so. With God, what he says will happen, will ultimately happen. It is already set. because it is in HIS PLAN. and if I plan on taking pizza to my friends house, I know I will be taking pizza to my friends house. remember, God knows all. his plans are far more grandous than Dinner. and he can plan better too.

God is perfect. Satan is evil. God and satan are at war. we are the pawns.we have to choose to go to god or choose to go to satan. Its your choice and god and satan are fighting for you to choose them.

You really love your fellow man don't yah? :eek:I do. which is why I would like to see everyone believing in God.

To see everyone filled with the same Joy I experiened without any drugs or alcohol. I want to see people and smile at them knowing they are sharing in the same fellowship.

it hurts to try and share this and have it thrown back into your face and being called crazy, or mentally retarded.

but, I will still try.

If you are honestly trying to find the right religion then you will find the right one.

Well all religons cannot be right. You can take people from each one and ask them if they honestly searched for the right one. They will say yes, and thier religion is what they found. They all CANNOT be right. Therefor honest searching does not find the truth.


News flash. Islam, Christianity, Judesim, they all worship the Same God


*rolling eyes BIG TIME* News flash--this just in "They are all different religions"


because it is in HIS PLAN. and if I plan on taking pizza to my friends house, I know I will be taking pizza to my friends house. remember, God knows all. his plans are far more grandous than Dinner. and he can plan better too.

You dont know you will take the pizza, you think you will take the pizza. You seriously do not know that it will actually happen. God on the other hand, does know what will happen. If he doesnt, he is not God.

I do. which is why I would like to see everyone believing in God.

To see everyone filled with the same Joy I experiened without any drugs or alcohol. I want to see people and smile at them knowing they are sharing in the same fellowship.

it hurts to try and share this and have it thrown back into your face and being called crazy, or mentally retarded.

but, I will still try.

Than why would you NOT want everyone to know the truth right off the bat?

Well all religons cannot be right. You can take people from each one and ask them if they honestly searched for the right one. They will say yes, and thier religion is what they found. They all CANNOT be right. Therefor honest searching does not find the truth.have you tried it? have you asked them these questions? did you really listen to their answers?
how do pan handlers find gold in the river... they sift though the silt and find the gold.*rolling eyes BIG TIME* News flash--this just in "They are all different religions" with a basic common starting point. of course there are differences, but that is why you need to actually look. not just discuss on the boards but go out and talk to the teachers of these faiths.

You dont know you will take the pizza, you think you will take the pizza. You seriously do not know that it will actually happen. God on the other hand, does know what will happen. If he doesnt, he is not God.
As I said, his vision is greater than mine, while you are correct, I don't know the future, I do know that the only thing that will prevent me from taking pizza to my friends place is Death. Cus I already got their order and have their money. (we do this every week and next week is pizza and it's my turn to do the food run.) :p

Than why would you NOT want everyone to know the truth right off the bat?I do. but read all the replies to those who try to spread the Word.

it's met with skeptism, sarcasm and the ever popular 'Prove to me God Exsists.'

Faith is a very personal experience. the proof that God gives is a Personal Proof. I can share it with you, but you have to be willing to listen. if not, then it's back to "thats not proof, come on... make him poke his head through the clouds."

I do. but read all the replies to those who try to spread the Word.

it's met with skeptism, sarcasm and the ever popular 'Prove to me God Exsists.'

Faith is a very personal experience. the proof that God gives is a Personal Proof. I can share it with you, but you have to be willing to listen. if not, then it's back to "thats not proof, come on... make him poke his head through the clouds."

I know people who KNOW little pink rabbits steal their cookies at night, for them, thats their TRUTH.....should I believe that too? Yet, if i saw the pink bunnies....i think id believe in em too.

I do. but read all the replies to those who try to spread the Word.

it's met with skeptism, sarcasm and the ever popular 'Prove to me God Exsists.'

Faith is a very personal experience. the proof that God gives is a Personal Proof. I can share it with you, but you have to be willing to listen. if not, then it's back to "thats not proof, come on... make him poke his head through the clouds."

Well faith is a tricky topic. Say we are all in an empty room together. Now say I claim that there is an elephant in the room. You all look at me and tell my why there cant be an elephant in the room. I respond by saying I have faith that there is an elephant in the room. Is that a legitimate justification that there is an elephant in the room?

I know people who KNOW little pink rabbits steal their cookies at night, for them, thats their TRUTH.....should I believe that too? Yet, if i saw the pink bunnies....i think id believe in em too.no... you won't believe in them... you'll know they exsist. but you won't believe in them.

you know... the big problem is that these questions have to be answered by people who's Vocation is Religion, Not Major, but Vocation. I can only share my experiences and we all know that's not enough.

no... you won't believe in them... you'll know they exsist. but you won't believe in them.

you know... the big problem is that these questions have to be answered by people who's Vocation is Religion, Not Major, but Vocation. I can only share my experiences and we all know that's not enough.

Nope because they arent my god, yet if my creator showed himself than id sure as pickles would show some thanks.

have you tried it? have you asked them these questions? did you really listen to their answers?
how do pan handlers find gold in the river... they sift though the silt and find the gold.with a basic common starting point. of course there are differences, but that is why you need to actually look. not just discuss on the boards but go out and talk to the teachers of these faiths.

I do have a life outside of this board. A religious studies major does just that "studies religion." Which i am. I have done that, i have asked questions, i have tried to make sense of it all. The reason to post is to have discussion with others. I, more than anything, want to find the truth. I dont like going through life in the dark, i want to take off the blindfold. The only one that can do that is God, if he even exists. If god is loving he would reveal the truth in a way that i can undertand and believe.

Faith is a very personal experience. the proof that God gives is a Personal Proof. I can share it with you, but you have to be willing to listen. if not, then it's back to "thats not proof, come on... make him poke his head through the clouds."

And yet thats all god needs to really do. Poke his head through, but he doesnt, He keeps himself hidden and in the mean time millions die without the truth and are sent to hell for ever.

Well faith is a tricky topic. Say we are all in an empty room together. Now say I claim that there is an elephant in the room. You all look at me and tell my why there cant be an elephant in the room. I respond by saying I have faith that there is an elephant in the room. Is that a legitimate justification that there is an elephant in the room?change it. for the stiuation is rigged to favor you.

You and I are in a large room a freaking huge wharehouse... one that makes the one at the ending of Raiders of the Lost Arc look like a closet. there is a large foot print of what might be an Elephant but it's old. Varous Trumptes are playing loudly over the speakers. and the room is filled with objects.

I tell you there is an elephant in the room.

you say where.

I say somewhere.

I point to the footprint and say this is his footprint.

you say where are the others...

I say there is only one.

the Room is large and to search it requires one lifetime.

I tell you that the elephant has the map and a key for each of us to get out of this Wharehouse and all we have to do is seek the elephant out.

you ask me how do I know.

My reply. I read it somewhere and it told me where the elephant is and that it will only come to you if you Cluck like a chicken.

do you believe me? Do you trust that there is an elephant in the wharehouse with the way out? would you do the required thing to get free?

change it. for the stiuation is rigged to favor you.

You and I are in a large room a freaking huge wharehouse... one that makes the one at the ending of Raiders of the Lost Arc look like a closet. there is a large foot print of what might be an Elephant but it's old. Varous Trumptes are playing loudly over the speakers. and the room is filled with objects.

I tell you there is an elephant in the room.

you say where.

I say somewhere.

I point to the footprint and say this is his footprint.

you say where are the others...

I say there is only one.

the Room is large and to search it requires one lifetime.

I tell you that the elephant has the map and a key for each of us to get out of this Wharehouse and all we have to do is seek the elephant out.

you ask me how do I know.

My reply. I read it somewhere and it told me where the elephant is and that it will only come to you if you Cluck like a chicken.

do you believe me? Do you trust that there is an elephant in the wharehouse with the way out? would you do the required thing to get free?

How about instead of replying with this long post you answer my original question? Then I will answer yours.

Loving and JUST God. The Old Testament was much more different than the New Testament in the sense that God couldn't love us until there was a way to forgive us of our sins. That = Jesus

How about instead of replying with this long post you answer my original question? Then I will answer yours.as I said, your situation is favored to you. Empty room?

no proof of the elephant?

if you said there was a pile of fresh elephant dung or a footprint that would be something.

at least mine offers doubt on wether or not that elephant exsists or not.

as I said, your situation is favored to you. Empty room?

no proof of the elephant?

if you said there was a pile of fresh elephant dung or a footprint that would be something.

at least mine offers doubt on wether or not that elephant exsists or not.

Its all part of the question. And how is it rigged. I am merely asking wheter or not that my faith in the "elephant" being in the room is sufficient justification to believe that an elephant is in the room.

change it. for the stiuation is rigged to favor you.

You and I are in a large room a freaking huge wharehouse... one that makes the one at the ending of Raiders of the Lost Arc look like a closet. there is a large foot print of what might be an Elephant but it's old. Varous Trumptes are playing loudly over the speakers. and the room is filled with objects.

I tell you there is an elephant in the room.

you say where.

I say somewhere.

I point to the footprint and say this is his footprint.

you say where are the others...

I say there is only one.

the Room is large and to search it requires one lifetime.

I tell you that the elephant has the map and a key for each of us to get out of this Wharehouse and all we have to do is seek the elephant out.

you ask me how do I know.

My reply. I read it somewhere and it told me where the elephant is and that it will only come to you if you Cluck like a chicken.

do you believe me? Do you trust that there is an elephant in the wharehouse with the way out? would you do the required thing to get free?

There isnt just one footprint. There are many. You point to one and say this one was made by the elephant and the others are just imitation. That analogy is flawed.

Ladies and Gentelmen, I'm sorry to tell you but God did not write the bible. Quoting the bible is nothing but quoting the ramblings of an absentminded human who was supposedly 'enlightened.' Catholics will tell you that if you're not baptized when you're born, you're going to Hell. If you take birth control or get divorced, you're going to Hell. This isn't God speaking, people... God didn't say, "Oh well, you're a Catholic minister... You cannot engage in sexual intercorse (and what you will)." That is NOT God's rule, it is MAN'S rule, and so is anything written in the bible. The relationship between yourself and God is just that, between you and God. Everything else is nothing but corruption. God will not judge you by what church you go to or how much money you put in the bin every Wedensday and Sunday. It's what's in your heart that counts, and people seemed to have forgotten that.

Its all part of the question. And how is it rigged. I am merely asking wheter or not that my faith in the "elephant" being in the room is sufficient justification to believe that an elephant is in the room.because you rigged the envrionment.
you can scientifically and logically prove the elephant does not exsist (your Quote "You and I are in an Empty Room". you cannot do the same with GOD. however in my room, you also cannot scientifically prove that the elephant does or does not exsist. you can search... maybe you'll get lucky. it's been known that people looking for God find him in the most unlikely of spots, while others never find Him.

In other words, you can follow the writings someone else wrote on how to find the Elephant doing what they said needs to be done to find the elephant. You can search on your own, and maybe you'll find the elephant, or you can conclude there is no elephant and live out your life with all that's in the wharehouse....

but finding the elephant (God) and getting out (heaven) requires Faith.

There isnt just one footprint. There are many. You point to one and say this one was made by the elephant and the others are just imitation. That analogy is flawed.that's fine... but doesn't change the fact that there is only one elephant's footprint.

but you are correct, so there are lots of other footprints that look similar but they are all different.

because you rigged the envrionment.
you can scientifically and logically prove the elephant does not exsist (your Quote "You and I are in an Empty Room". you cannot do the same with GOD. however in my room, you also cannot scientifically prove that the elephant does or does not exsist. you can search... maybe you'll get lucky. it's been known that people looking for God find him in the most unlikely of spots, while others never find Him.

In other words, you can follow the writings someone else wrote on how to find the Elephant doing what they said needs to be done to find the elephant. You can search on your own, and maybe you'll find the elephant, or you can conclude there is no elephant and live out your life with all that's in the wharehouse....

but finding the elephant (God) and getting out (heaven) requires Faith.

Is it that hard to answer the question. It is a simple yes or no. Is it acceptable in the presense of evidence against the elephant in the room to say that I believe it is there because I have faith that it is? If you want it doesnt even have to be an empty room it could just be a room we are all in and I claim that there is an elephant there. My whole question plays into your statment that finding the elephant requires faith.

Ladies and Gentelmen, I'm sorry to tell you but God did not write the bible. Quoting the bible is nothing but quoting the ramblings of an absentminded human who was supposedly 'enlightened.' Catholics will tell you that if you're not baptized when you're born, you're going to Hell. If you take birth control or get divorced, you're going to Hell. This isn't God speaking, people... God didn't say, "Oh well, you're a Catholic minister... You cannot engage in sexual intercorse (and what you will)." That is NOT God's rule, it is MAN'S rule, and so is anything written in the bible. The relationship between yourself and God is just that, between you and God. Everything else is nothing but corruption. God will not judge you by what church you go to or how much money you put in the bin every Wedensday and Sunday. It's what's in your heart that counts, and people seemed to have forgotten that.

So do you believe in a god that you can have a relationship with? Its in our hearts? I dont know God exists until he shows me he exists. I dont beleive in God because god doesnt really reveal himself. The only reason to suspect a god exists are from the words of fallible humans. I dont have any reason to beleive it...

Is it that hard to answer the question. It is a simple yes or no. Is it acceptable in the presense of evidence against the elephant in the room to say that I believe it is there because I have faith that it is? If you want it doesnt even have to be an empty room it could just be a room we are all in and I claim that there is an elephant there. My whole question plays into your statment that finding the elephant requires faith.
What evidence is there against the Exsistance of God?

Now if I did say that there is an elephant in your empty room then what?

What evidence is there against the Exsistance of God?

Now if I did say that there is an elephant in your empty room then what?

Is that a legitimate answer to my question or are you just doing that so you dont really have to seriously answer it.

Is that a legitimate answer to my question or are you just doing that so you dont really have to seriously answer it.Sure take it as a serious answer... but you didn't answer by questions.

Sure take it as a serious answer... but you didn't answer by questions.

Alright so i am suposed to believe that when all of us are in an empty room And I claim that there is an elephant. Then people do all sorts of tests to see if there is an elephant there and they present their findings to me. Then I respond by saying that I believe that the elephant is their only because of faith. Your telling me that yes that is a legitimate way to support that the elephant I claim is in the room is there. That is obviously not a serious answer. and I didnt answer by question?

What evidence is there against the Exsistance of God?


Just about everything. The only things that point to God are books written by human beings. The Bible says God is love. God loves us? Would you protect someone you love? God supposedly loves us but does not protect us. Where was god when a girl i know gets raped? Where was his protection. He is not loving to allow it. It is not loving to stand by in the clouds while his 'loving' child gets raped.

God didn't want a bunch of robots, so he gave us free will. /snipI'm curious, why did god want us to have free will?

Alright so i am suposed to believe that when all of us are in an empty room And I claim that there is an elephant. Then people do all sorts of tests to see if there is an elephant there and they present their findings to me. Then I respond by saying that I believe that the elephant is their only because of faith. Your telling me that yes that is a legitimate way to support that the elephant I claim is in the room is there. That is obviously not a serious answer. and I didnt answer by question?
after all your tests... while saying that there is no elephant, you hear a thump against the far wall.
there is nothing in the room that you can see but us.

there is no sign of anything hitting the wall.

could be anything.

could be the Elephant that you couldn't find.

just enough doubt, just enough proof. then what.

after all your tests... while saying that there is no elephant, you hear a thump against the far wall.
there is nothing in the room that you can see but us.

there is no sign of anything hitting the wall.

could be anything.

could be the Elephant that you couldn't find.

just enough doubt, just enough proof. then what.

I have asked you a simple yes or no question which you continue to neglect to answer seriously. Stop trying to make new questions and answer mine seriously.

I'm curious, why did god want us to have free will?

And if He did, why is He complaining that we're not using it exactly as He wants us to?

It's like:
God: Hakar, you have free will! :)
Hakar: Yay! :fluffle:
God: Dammit! Don't do that! :mad:
Hakar: :confused:

Just about everything. The only things that point to God are books written by human beings. The Bible says God is love. God loves us? Would you protect someone you love? God supposedly loves us but does not protect us. Where was god when a girl i know gets raped? Where was his protection. He is not loving to allow it. It is not loving to stand by in the clouds while his 'loving' child gets raped.why do bad things happen to Good people? why do criminals do what they do? you want vindication, know that God knows and Justice will come. Meanwhile your Friend is raped and it's God's fault? that's what the devil wants. While I am sorry to hear of that, I do empethise, a friend of mine was also attacked, and the sad thing... had I not decided to take a small detour, I might have been there to stop them.

but I left it in Gods hands, and she is now healed and works to help others who were raped, every person she helps makes her feel like maybe this was her true calling. meanwhile her attacker is not only in jail but his sentence was extended when contraband was found in his cell.

we don't talk often for she know I feel a personal guilt about that day, she tells me it wasn't my fault but that is something I have to give up to God one day. unfortunatly, I tend to be stubborn about alot of things... self floggin is one of them.

I have asked you a simple yes or no question which you continue to neglect to answer seriously. Stop trying to make new questions and answer mine seriously.
I have. after but you haven't answered mine. there is no Scientific evidence to say God doesn't exsist.

Miracles still happen to this day but people refuse to believe in them.

why do bad things happen to Good people? why do criminals do what they do? you want vindication, know that God knows and Justice will come. Meanwhile your Friend is raped and it's God's fault? that's what the devil wants. While I am sorry to hear of that, I do empethise, a friend of mine was also attacked, and the sad thing... had I not decided to take a small detour, I might have been there to stop them.

but I left it in Gods hands, and she is now healed and works to help others who were raped, every person she helps makes her feel like maybe this was her true calling. meanwhile her attacker is not only in jail but his sentence was extended when contraband was found in his cell.

we don't talk often for she know I feel a personal guilt about that day, she tells me it wasn't my fault but that is something I have to give up to God one day. unfortunatly, I tend to be stubborn about alot of things... self floggin is one of them.

I dont think he wants vindication more of if such if god is an all knowing, all powerful, perfectly good being then why whould he allow/do such horribly evil and bad things to happen to people. This question goes into the long debate on wheter the existance of evil justifies the belief that God does not exist.

Your telling me that in an empty room where I claim there is an elephant in it and people do tests and show me evidence that it is not there that my faith that it exists is a legitimate way to prove it exists. I just think you answered the question that way so you could avoid the second part of it.

why do bad things happen to Good people? why do criminals do what they do? you want vindication, know that God knows and Justice will come. Meanwhile your Friend is raped and it's God's fault? that's what the devil wants. While I am sorry to hear of that, I do empethise, a friend of mine was also attacked, and the sad thing... had I not decided to take a small detour, I might have been there to stop them.

but I left it in Gods hands, and she is now healed and works to help others who were raped, every person she helps makes her feel like maybe this was her true calling. meanwhile her attacker is not only in jail but his sentence was extended when contraband was found in his cell.

we don't talk often for she know I feel a personal guilt about that day, she tells me it wasn't my fault but that is something I have to give up to God one day. unfortunatly, I tend to be stubborn about alot of things... self floggin is one of them.

Sorry about your friend as well. I really dont understand why things like that are "allowed" to happen. God could stop it, but doesnt. Whats the big deal if he keeps someone from being raped? It should be his DUTY to stop it from happening. I feel that it is in fact gods fault, because he let it happen. A guy tells you he will rape a girl tonight. You could go to the police and they would come and keep it from happening. You dont, and the girl is raped. Its your fault for not stepping in. The guy could have been stopped but wasnt. Justice will come sure, but right now the girl is raped. Gods failure to get involved angers me so much. If god was real, he would be there. Hes not there and this girl is raped. I just dont see a loving god here.

:headbang: ohkay!! what? its ok that god made horrid things happen as sin has to be punished...thats a bit severe i think...i mean what are sins? who says that some thing is one...i mean you cant be merciful and sooo judgemental at the same time...i disagree completely with that whole line of thot - sin = punishment it doesnt have to be so violent!! :(

I dont think he wants vindication more of if such if god is an all knowing, all powerful, perfectly good being then why whould he allow/do such horribly evil and bad things to happen to people. This question goes into the long debate on wheter the existance of evil justifies the belief that God does not exist.so a lack of VISIBLE GOD-LIKE action is your proof that he doesn't exsist. like everyone else, you require hard tangable PROOF.

I don't question God's motives, I just ask for help. and you know what. there are times when I get nothing... other times when things suddenly fall into place.

Sorry about your friend as well. I really dont understand why things like that are "allowed" to happen. God could stop it, but doesnt. Whats the big deal if he keeps someone from being raped? It should be his DUTY to stop it from happening. I feel that it is in fact gods fault, because he let it happen. A guy tells you he will rape a girl tonight. You could go to the police and they would come and keep it from happening. You dont, and the girl is raped. Its your fault for not stepping in. The guy could have been stopped but wasnt. Justice will come sure, but right now the girl is raped. Gods failure to get involved angers me so much. If god was real, he would be there. Hes not there and this girl is raped. I just dont see a loving god here.no, it's not His Duty... but ours. God does not work that way and the more you expect him to, the more you will be disappointed.

again, a Priest or Pastor would better answer your questions... infact, I rather urge you to go since it appears you have SERIOUS issues with the Almighty. You won't ask a barber about Tax laws, nor would you ask a cop about medical problems.

I urge you to talk to a Reverend, Pastor, Cleric... someone of the field for it's obvious you have a serious issue with God and I think that anger is why you no longer 'Hear' him.

so a lack of VISIBLE GOD-LIKE action is your proof that he doesn't exsist. like everyone else, you require hard tangable PROOF.

I don't question God's motives, I just ask for help. and you know what. there are times when I get nothing... other times when things suddenly fall into place.

You realize how dangerous that type of thinking is. People have used that type of thinking to justify why if their children are sick they wont take them to a doctor. And what is wrong with requireing tangible proof that such a being exists? If God is all powerfull, all knowing, and a perfectly good being what is wrong with him showing himself to make sure that he exists. If God wants a loving relationship with everyone then why would he allow people to misconstrew his word and his intentions. Why if he wants a loving relationship with us would he allow numerous people to never know of his existance?

no, it's not His Duty... but ours. God does not work that way and the more you expect him to, the more you will be disappointed.

again, a Priest or Pastor would better answer your questions... infact, I rather urge you to go since it appears you have SERIOUS issues with the Almighty. You won't ask a barber about Tax laws, nor would you ask a cop about medical problems.

I urge you to talk to a Reverend, Pastor, Cleric... someone of the field for it's obvious you have a serious issue with God and I think that anger is why you no longer 'Hear' him.

I do talk with a few seminary friends. Two of my closest friends are studying to be pastors. The problem is that they never give me real answers. They always refer me to Bible verses. I would just like a real answer every now and then. I do have issues with God, but also with religion itself.

And what is wrong with requireing tangible proof that such a being exists? If God is all powerfull, all knowing, and a perfectly good being what is wrong with him showing himself to make sure that he exists. If God wants a loving relationship with everyone then why would he allow people to misconstrew his word and his intentions. Why if he wants a loving relationship with us would he allow numerous people to never know of his existance?

I agree totally. If god loves us, he would show it. Everyone makes a big deal out of saying that God cannot reveal himself or that would not be faith. Faith is an awfully big risk to play with someones soul. When my eternal future is on the line, i would be expecting some hard evidence. God could reveal himself and save millions, but doesnt, and gives us a fallible book, written by fallible humans and expects us to believe it.

"God" slaughtered innocent babies because of Pharaoh's stubbornness: "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.” (Exod. 12:29)

"God" had babies dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped open: "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"God" wanted children to be murdered as human sacrifices: "I let them become defiled through their gifts - the sacrifice of every firstborn - that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.” (Ezek. 20:26)

"God" threatened to have innocent children be devoured by wild animals: “I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.” (Lev. 26:22)

"God" threatened to have children cannibalized: "If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.” (Lev. 26:27-29)

"God" ordered the genocide of women, children and babies: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”” (1 Sam. 15:2-3)

"God" aborted fetuses and murdered children in answer to the prophet Hosea's prayer: "Give them, O Lord – what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry .... Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring." (Hosea 9:14-16)

"God" murdered a baby because of David's adultery: “Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." (2 Sam. 12:13-14)

"God" ordered people to kill their brothers, friends and neighbors: “Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'" (Exod. 32:27)

- www.near-death.com
Question: DOES THE TERM METAPHOR MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?!?!?!?! :mad: :mad: :mad: :upyours:

You realize how dangerous that type of thinking is. People have used that type of thinking to justify why if their children are sick they wont take them to a doctor. And what is wrong with requireing tangible proof that such a being exists? If God is all powerfull, all knowing, and a perfectly good being what is wrong with him showing himself to make sure that he exists. If God wants a loving relationship with everyone then why would he allow people to misconstrew his word and his intentions. Why if he wants a loving relationship with us would he allow numerous people to never know of his existance?there is a difference. I will urge them to take the Child to the Doctors (for that's why they are there) but I've also heard of people with problems that can't be cured go and find that the Doctor they go to just heard about a revolutinary procedure through an off hand remark, that will save their life. Things fall into place. Or people whom Doctors write off as incurable but friends who post her symptoms on the Internet find a specialist in another country who just 'happens' to be helping his son with homework when he comes across that particular post. or a child on a MUDD will be the only one to believe a person's cry for help on the internet.

Leaving it to God's hands does not mean to Literally Leave it in God's Hands.

off thread but it reminds me of a Joke (of all things)
A river is flooding. a truck comes by and tells the Pastor that they are here to evacute him. his reply "no, God will watch over me, go and assist those who are more needy"

the water rises and he is at the second floor of his home. a boat comes by and they tell the Pastor that they are here to rescue him. again he replies "no, God will watch over me, go and assist those who are more needy" after much arguing, the boat speeds off, leaving the Pastor.

much later, he is on the Roof of his home and a helicopter comes by to rescue him. his reply... yep. "no, God will watch over me, go and assist those who are more needy"

when he finally drowns and is at the Pearly Gates, he asks Jesus why wasn't anything done to save him. Jesus replied "well, we sent a Truck, a Boat and a Helicopter..."

so when I say I leave it in Gods Hands, I don't mean it Literally. I will let him Guide me to my solution. not bring the solution to me.

Question: DOES THE TERM METAPHOR MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?!?!?!?! :mad: :mad: :mad: :upyours:

Well this seems to be an unessecary post at another post that was made awhile ago. If your going to respond do it intellegently instead of going CAPS LOCKS at all of us. And further more how are any of the passages cited metaphors?

Question: DOES THE TERM METAPHOR MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?!?!?!?! :mad: :mad: :mad: :upyours:

and they would be metaphor for what???? you CANNOT take something you dont like about the bible and say "metaphor." You could say the whole bible is metaphor, but that means that its a bunch of lies with hidden meanings. Hardly the revealed word of God.

there is a difference. I will urge them to take the Child to the Doctors (for that's why they are there) but I've also heard of people with problems that can't be cured go and find that the Doctor they go to just heard about a revolutinary procedure through an off hand remark, that will save their life. Things fall into place. Or people whom Doctors write off as incurable but friends who post her symptoms on the Internet find a specialist in another country who just 'happens' to be helping his son with homework when he comes across that particular post. or a child on a MUDD will be the only one to believe a person's cry for help on the internet.

Leaving it to God's hands does not mean to Literally Leave it in God's Hands.

off thread but it reminds me of a Joke (of all things)
A river is flooding. a truck comes by and tells the Pastor that they are here to evacute him. his reply "no, God will watch over me, go and assist those who are more needy"

the water rises and he is at the second floor of his home. a boat comes by and they tell the Pastor that they are here to rescue him. again he replies "no, God will watch over me, go and assist those who are more needy" after much arguing, the boat speeds off, leaving the Pastor.

much later, he is on the Roof of his home and a helicopter comes by to rescue him. his reply... yep. "no, God will watch over me, go and assist those who are more needy"

when he finally drowns and is at the Pearly Gates, he asks Jesus why wasn't anything done to save him. Jesus replied "well, we sent a Truck, a Boat and a Helicopter..."

so when I say I leave it in Gods Hands, I don't mean it Literally. I will let him Guide me to my solution. not bring the solution to me.

Judging from this post is it fair to assume that you dont believe that god gave humans free will?

I do talk with a few seminary friends. Two of my closest friends are studying to be pastors. The problem is that they never give me real answers. They always refer me to Bible verses. I would just like a real answer every now and then. I do have issues with God, but also with religion itself.Ah, but try an Ordained Pastor or Reverend. tho I've never tried it, I've heard that Confessionals are supposedly sacred... meaning the pastor cannot gossip or spread what he was told.

I am a firm believer that to hold grudges is bad for the health.

often times I find myself talking to the Pastor at the Hospital I work with. he is Catholic, I'm Baptist but I find myself conforted at times.

I really am sorry about your friend. how is she holding up? and was this one of those things that caused the rift between you and God. (don't answer if you're not comfortable with it.)

Judging from this post is it fair to assume that you dont believe that god gave humans free will?He gives free will. I can choose to try it my way. I can Choose to ignore Him. or I can choose to follow Him. To love Him and to Believe in Him.

(to tell you the truth, there was a time My faith did waiver. were I started rationalizing that perhaps God didn't exsist.

then my Mother ended up with an extra ticket to a conference with Benny Hinn, I couldn't think of a viable exscuse for not going... and God Kicked my ASS to the ground and I enjoyed it. I was laughing so hard, and feeling such peace that I felt nothing would go wrong again. Never again would I doubt Gods Presense.)

Let's start with a few assumptions for the purposes of this post:

1. Given that the Christian God exists.
2. Given that the only 'proof' of this is a text known as 'The Bible.'
3. Given that the Bible, as the 'revealed word' of this god, can be held as accurate.

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22)

It says right here that the difference between man and god is immortality, NOT understanding. Our capacity to understand good and evil is LIKE GOD'S.

Therefore, if you believe the Bible, no more stuff about us not understanding why God does the things he does. If we think it WRONG to smash an infant's head against a rock, then this god must also consider it immoral.

If you don't believe in the Bible, then you don't believe that the Christian god exists and the point is moot.I agree with everything here, but can someone try and find holes in the statement? This seems to be the best argument for Secluded Islands yet no one has tried to argue against it.
I'd play devils advocate but I can't find flaws....

I really am sorry about your friend. how is she holding up? and was this one of those things that caused the rift between you and God. (don't answer if you're not comfortable with it.)

I really wouldnt like to talk about it. No it wasnt what caused me to lose faith, but it ceratinly caused hard feelings. I began to have problems with god and christianity about three years ago and finally just stopped believing.

He gives free will. I can choose to try it my way. I can Choose to ignore Him. or I can choose to follow Him. To love Him and to Believe in Him.

(to tell you the truth, there was a time My faith did waiver. were I started rationalizing that perhaps God didn't exsist.

then my Mother ended up with an extra ticket to a conference with Benny Hinn, I couldn't think of a viable exscuse for not going... and God Kicked my ASS to the ground and I enjoyed it. I was laughing so hard, and feeling such peace that I felt nothing would go wrong again. Never again would I doubt Gods Presense.)

Really that is ironic because people get the same feelings from going to death metal concerts that are anti christian. Does this mean they are correct for believing god does not exist?

I personally would have to go with the pot theory, but i got a better pot theory. Say you made a pot out of brass, but before you sealed it you put a hunk of gold inside. Now, wouldn't you not care about breaking the brass pot with the devine bat of justice to get the gold out?

I personally would have to go with the pot theory, but i got a better pot theory. Say you made a pot out of brass, but before you sealed it you put a hunk of gold inside. Now, wouldn't you not care about breaking the brass pot with the devine bat of justice to get the gold out?Heh... if you are referring to God forcing himself into someone's heart by showing irrifultable proof, or someone forcing God into another's life?

Really that is ironic because people get the same feelings from going to death metal concerts that are anti christian. Does this mean they are correct for believing god does not exist?ahh.. but who does the knocking down? the Music coming from the speakers? the other fans? the bouncers?

and I wonder how far will you go to 'debunk' my personal miracle?

you may try if you wish.

I really wouldnt like to talk about it. No it wasnt what caused me to lose faith, but it ceratinly caused hard feelings. I began to have problems with god and christianity about three years ago and finally just stopped believing.Fair enough.

ahh.. but who does the knocking down? the Music coming from the speakers? the other fans? the bouncers?

In a death metal concert i would have to assume all three.

In a death metal concert i would have to assume all three.fair enough.

(Never been to any Metal Concert so I'll say you are better versed in that.)

now here is the kicker.

there was no physical force, no interation with any object. but litterally sections of us were knocked back by an unseen force and we were knocked down simultaniously.

fair enough.

(Never been to any Metal Concert so I'll say you are better versed in that.)

now here is the kicker.

there was no physical force, no interation with any object. but litterally sections of us were knocked back by an unseen force and we were knocked down simultaniously.

And people who have been given sugar pills but told it was morphine felt no pain whatsoever as if they actually had morphine. The human mind can do wonderous things when it wants to believe. Music moves people to tears or in to violent rages.

And people who have been given sugar pills but told it was morphine felt no pain whatsoever as if they actually had morphine. The human mind can do wonderous things when it wants to believe. Music moves people to tears or in to violent rages.

Good point as well.

And people who have been given sugar pills but told it was morphine felt no pain whatsoever as if they actually had morphine. The human mind can do wonderous things when it wants to believe. Music moves people to tears or in to violent rages. agreed. lots of test require the use of placebos. But then there were no outward signs. no signal, no music playing. the speaker was speaking and bam! (apologies to Emeril), that's when it happened.

It was our section... not the whole auditorium. and every single one of us that was on our backs were laughing with joy... not shock or fear, joy. (ok, I will conciede that I did not ask everyone but my friends who were in that section as well as my Mother and the people immediatly around me were.)

and this was at a time where I was skeptical about God.

"God" slaughtered innocent babies because of Pharaoh's stubbornness: "At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.” (Exod. 12:29)

"God" had babies dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped open: "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)

"God" wanted children to be murdered as human sacrifices: "I let them become defiled through their gifts - the sacrifice of every firstborn - that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.” (Ezek. 20:26)

"God" threatened to have innocent children be devoured by wild animals: “I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.” (Lev. 26:22)

"God" threatened to have children cannibalized: "If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.” (Lev. 26:27-29)

"God" ordered the genocide of women, children and babies: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”” (1 Sam. 15:2-3)

"God" aborted fetuses and murdered children in answer to the prophet Hosea's prayer: "Give them, O Lord – what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry .... Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring." (Hosea 9:14-16)

"God" murdered a baby because of David's adultery: “Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." (2 Sam. 12:13-14)

"God" ordered people to kill their brothers, friends and neighbors: “Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'" (Exod. 32:27)

People who accuse me of taking these Bible verses out of context, must state the context which justifies "God" to slaughter a multitude of innocent babies and children.

- www.near-death.com


just the type of god for a mongol spirited person like me , so silence you pathetic pacifist

agreed. lots of test require the use of placebos. But then there were no outward signs. no signal, no music playing. the speaker was speaking and bam! (apologies to Emeril), that's when it happened.

and this was at a time where I was skeptical about God.

And even if music was not playing people could have wanted so hard to believe that their minds actually caused their body to as in your instace physicaly seem to be pushed. Okay your having problems with your belief in god at that point. So one explanation to you was that god did this when all that could have happened was your subconscience took action because mentally you wanted to believe hard enough that it litterally pushed you down when the speaker was talking about god.

That you can do just what the people that annoy you the most can do and that is take the bible literally.

I mean, talk about fighting fire with fire. It's just plain ridiculous.

I'm tired of people who carry on this ludicrous battle from both sides. Honestly, get another hobby.

In other words, *boring* *yawn*

Goofballs has a good point. Will you judge God?

I will. God sucks. Hail Eris! (There is no Goddess but Goddess and She is YOUR Goddess.)

Again, in my not so humble opinion, the Judeo-Xtian God sucks. It's evil, hypocritical, petty, a piss-poor planner, an even worse storyteller, and most of it's adherents are brainwashed half wits. Not a god for me, that's fur shure.

That you can do just what the people that annoy you the most can do and that is take the bible literally.

I mean, talk about fighting fire with fire. It's just plain ridiculous.

I'm tired of people who carry on this ludicrous battle from both sides. Honestly, get another hobby.

In other words, *boring* *yawn*

If your so board next time dont bother to post. I mean some of us here are actually having a civil debate and enjoying ourselves. If you dont think this is interesting then dont post here.

Again, in my not so humble opinion, the Judeo-Xtian God sucks. It's evil, hypocritical, petty, a piss-poor planner, an even worse storyteller, and most of it's adherents are brainwashed half wits. Not a god for me, that's fur shure.
Now really, there must be a better way to express yourself rather than resorting to flames.

That you can do just what the people that annoy you the most can do and that is take the bible literally.

I mean, talk about fighting fire with fire. It's just plain ridiculous.

I'm tired of people who carry on this ludicrous battle from both sides. Honestly, get another hobby.

In other words, *boring* *yawn*

So what draws the line between literal and non-literal parts of the bible? Honestly if you dont want to participate, then dont. Coming in here and saying "this sucks" does nothing.

And even if music was not playing people could have wanted so hard to believe that their minds actually caused their body to as in your instace physicaly seem to be pushed. Okay your having problems with your belief in god at that point. So one explanation to you was that god did this when all that could have happened was your subconscience took action because mentally you wanted to believe hard enough that it litterally pushed you down when the speaker was talking about god.so you believe in Telekinetics?

trust me, falling was the last thing I wanted to do. If and I say IF anything, maybe sezures, but not falling, and in an auditorium full of people only one section? with that many people wanting to feel the power, wouldn't it be all? and why so coordinated? not a wave, just one time.

and no. I was, if not already, leaving the flock. infact I was paying minimal attention to what he was saying. I believe he was talking about his experience in the middle east (this was early 1990's) and he was asking us to stand for a Hymnal when we were knocked down.

That you can do just what the people that annoy you the most can do and that is take the bible literally.

I mean, talk about fighting fire with fire. It's just plain ridiculous.

I'm tired of people who carry on this ludicrous battle from both sides. Honestly, get another hobby.

In other words, *boring* *yawn*we are not forcing you to stay. please leave if this doesn't interest you.

I'm just gonna say this. No one is able to explain God and no one should be able to. If someone was able to then I would begin to worry that it really might just be all made up.

I'm just gonna say this. No one is able to explain God and no one should be able to. If someone was able to then I would begin to worry that it really might just be all made up.Yet people will continue to ask to explain God. :rolleyes:

and no. I was, if not already, leaving the flock. infact I was paying minimal attention to what he was saying. I believe he was talking about his experience in the middle east (this was early 1990's) and he was asking us to stand for a Hymnal when we were knocked down.

So was that what brought you back? What gives you your faith in God? How can you read a book that has god saying "Trust me," when God does not even prove that it is himself saying it?

So was that what brought you back? Yep. it was a big kick to the butt for me.
What gives you your faith in God?while evil is there, so is good. granted it's not flashy like evil is, but it is there.

Take WTC. considering the building was built before the 747, I find it amazing that it stood up that long. alot of people got out of a building that had it's structure turned into molten liquid by the ingited fuel... that was hit by two extremely large missiles. those two towers took an attack that it was never meant to withstand and it stood for what... 45 minutes? Even the designer was amazed at that. Alot of people that should have died got out.

then there is the Lutheran church of St. Peter's in New York that had THE CITICORP CENTER built ontop of it. the building was designed in a way where the supports were not at the corner but in the middle of the sides. all calculations were perfect for withstanding high winds.... except one. if the winds hit at the corners (like a hurricane) then the structure would collapse. The designer also discovered that the contracter did not build it to his specifications but cut corners. thereby the joints were weakened. while they raced to correct that against a coming hurricane it was obvious that they were not going to make it. at the last moment the hurricane swerved to land somewhere else. Sorry for no links, but the story was on the Discovery Channel.

Granted you can Explain it away. But perhaps it's also God just giving things a nudge.

How can you read a book that has god saying "Trust me," when God does not even prove that it is himself saying it?Dunno, he proved it to me on that occasion and the peace that I feel is proof to me that I am doing well. Faith is personal. I cannot prove my faith to you over the internet. which is why I'll insist you talk not to people here but those who's vocation is the Word.

Perhaps one of the biggest problems is.. Love and Justice, in the Bible, work against each other.

Love, as humans understand it, is benevolent and forgiving.

Justice is blind, and generally beats the crap out of you.

Why aren't justice and love identicle?

To Mr. Miracle: The trick is, you have to compare all the Good Luck vs. all the Bad Luck.

It's really hard to counter the Children's Crusade.

Alright Nekone do I have a deal for you today. I have found the true faith. The Raelians are the one and only true faith. These intellegent aliens have created humanity and wish to share their knowledge with us. How do we do this you ask well its simple all you have to do is have faith in them and put your life in their hands. If you dont truely have faith and put your life in the hands of the aliens you will never be able to see them or be saved. So Nekone are you going to subscribe to the Raelian faith?

To Mr. Miracle: The trick is, you have to compare all the Good Luck vs. all the Bad Luck.

It's really hard to counter the Children's Crusade.I agree. and I do compare the Good Luck with the Bad.

Mr. Miracle... nice tag... tho I think DC comics might not like me taking it... :D

Alright Nekone do I have a deal for you today. I have found the true faith. The Raelians are the one and only true faith. These intellegent aliens have created humanity and wish to share their knowledge with us. How do we do this you ask well its simple all you have to do is have faith in them and put your life in their hands. If you dont truely have faith and put your life in the hands of the aliens you will never be able to see them or be saved. So Nekone are you going to subscribe to the Raelian faith?Sorry, I have to refuse. you can try to convert me tho, but I am truly happy with God.

and I am Happy for you in finding your faith. I hope these Raelians are everything you hope for and will do everything you think God doesn't do.

Sorry, I have to refuse. you can try to convert me tho, but I am truly happy with God.

and I am Happy for you in finding your faith. I hope these Raelians are everything you hope for and will do everything you think God doesn't do.

Why not I have given you everything you need to know. You will have eternal happiness with them and you will find all the answers to why we are here in the Raelian religion. All you have to do is have faith and be willing to put your life in the hands of the aliens plan.

Why not I have given you everything you need to know. You will have eternal happiness with them and you will find all the answers to why we are here in the Raelian religion. All you have to do is have faith and be willing to put your life in the hands of the aliens plan.Simple, I placed my Faith and my Love with God.

Simple, I placed my Faith and my Love with God.

But your wrong cant you see. Your blinding yourself to the truth that is the Raelian religion. All you have to do is put your life in the aliens hands and have faith in them and eternal salvation is yours. Its that easy. You only have to stop diluding yourself with these wrong ideals and believe in the Raelian religion. All you need to do is have faith in it and you will see the truth.

But your wrong cant you see. Your blinding yourself to the truth that is the Raelian religion. All you have to do is put your life in the aliens hands and have faith in them and eternal salvation is yours. Its that easy. You only have to stop diluding yourself with these wrong ideals and believe in the Raelian religion. All you need to do is have faith in it and you will see the truth.

So this is what they've been teaching you in D.C eh bro? :p

Seriously though, god can be a real dick sometimes.

i beleive in one un-dying force: 7 red stripes
6 white stripes
and a hell of a lot of stars!.

god bless america and god save the queen (i am half british)

But your wrong cant you see. Your blinding yourself to the truth that is the Raelian religion. All you have to do is put your life in the aliens hands and have faith in them and eternal salvation is yours. Its that easy. You only have to stop diluding yourself with these wrong ideals and believe in the Raelian religion. All you need to do is have faith in it and you will see the truth.and what are their teachings? their Views and Moral stands? So far you are not saying anything different that the other religions say.

Seriously though, god can be a real dick sometimes.Seriously though... God? or Satan...

and what are their teachings? their Views and Moral stands? So far you are not saying anything that the other religions say.

So why wont you put your faith and life in the hands of these aliens? Once you do it you will see the truth. What is wrong with my reasoning?

So why wont you put your faith and life in the hands of these aliens? Once you do it you will see the truth. What is wrong with my reasoning?Because God already fulfills my needs and my wants. the denomination I follow (Baptist) has given me the fellowship that I did not find in other Denominations and God has helped me through some rough times. Even when my faith in him was low.

I am happy with God's Love and Grace.

Because God already fulfills my needs and my wants. the denomination I follow (Baptist) has given me the fellowship that I did not find in other Denominations and God has helped me through some rough times. Even when my faith in him was low.

I am happy with God's Love and Grace.

But I am asking you what is wrong with my reasoning there? Why is my statement wrong?

But I am asking you what is wrong with my reasoning there? Why is my statement wrong?If you truly believe that the Raelians are your salvation, then no. you are not wrong. I did listen to you, however, trying to "convert" someone to Christianity via posts is next to impossible, there is no catch phrase or any one argument that will convince someone to place their faith in anything.

that is why arguing about which religion is right or which faith is true on a message board is really not effective. there is nothing I can say or do on these boards to convince anyone to believe in God. I can only share my experiences.

I never try to convince anyone to follow my religion. I only ask that you give God a chance. and to be fair, saying that these posts are that chance is like saying I test drove a car I wanna buy by playing Grand Turismo...

For you, didn't you find it hard to get a convincing argument on this board about the Raeliens? sure you could post a page and a half of stuff, but the chances of anyone reading it is small.

now if you said that there was a church in Hawaii that I can go to... then I may check it out. after all, I won't expect the boards to properly answer my questions about God. but they can point me in the direction I need to go to get those answers.

However, as I said, I am happy and Content with God as my Lord and Salvation.

<snip>

You'll have to excuse my brother, he isn't a member of the Raelien religion (Honestly man and I thought I was the crazy twin, but pulling that out wow). What he is trying to get at is faith wise if some group can't use it as a basis for their beliefs what makes it able to be used by other groups. I do believe the alien thing has gone on for long enough though (even though it was humerous).

You'll have to excuse my brother, he isn't a member of the Raelien religion (Honestly man and I thought I was the crazy twin, but pulling that out wow). What he is trying to get at is faith wise if some group can't use it as a basis for their beliefs what makes it able to be used by other groups. I do believe the alien thing has gone on for long enough though (even though it was humerous).maybe because there are some truth to the religion.

Science cannot explain everything... it can try, but untill then... and maybe even then, I and many others will still have Faith.

the Raelien thing was interesting. I was wondering what he'll say to try and convince me.

If you truly believe that the Raelians are your salvation, then no. you are not wrong. I did listen to you, however, trying to "convert" someone to Christianity via posts is next to impossible, there is no catch phrase or any one argument that will convince someone to place their faith in anything.

that is why arguing about which religion is right or which faith is true on a message board is really not effective. there is nothing I can say or do on these boards to convince anyone to believe in God. I can only share my experiences.

I never try to convince anyone to follow my religion. I only ask that you give God a chance. and to be fair, saying that these posts are that chance is like saying I test drove a car I wanna buy by playing Grand Turismo...

For you, didn't you find it hard to get a convincing argument on this board about the Raeliens? sure you could post a page and a half of stuff, but the chances of anyone reading it is small.

now if you said that there was a church in Hawaii that I can go to... then I may check it out. after all, I won't expect the boards to properly answer my questions about God. but they can point me in the direction I need to go to get those answers.

However, as I said, I am happy and Content with God as my Lord and Salvation.

Yes I do not believe in the Raelian religion. I was merely furthering my point using it as a base. Now your remark about me not being wrong is funny. Because if i am not wrong it does entail that you are. If my assertion that the raelian religion is the only true religion then it is impossible for the Christian god to exist. So either I am wrong and their is something wrong with the reasoing I presented to you or you are and the God you worship does not exist. Everything you have lived your life according to is a lie and you have wasted a better part of your life believing in a false way of life. So which is it I am right or you are and how am I wrong.

Yes I do not believe in the Raelian religion. I was merely furthering my point using it as a base. Now your remark about me not being wrong is funny. Because if i am not wrong it does entail that you are. If my assertion that the raelian religion is the only true religion then it is impossible for the Christian god to exist. So either I am wrong and their is something wrong with the reasoing I presented to you or you are and the God you worship does not exist. Everything you have lived your life according to is a lie and you have wasted a better part of your life believing in a false way of life. So which is it I am right or you are and how am I wrong.I could be that I mis understood your question. I thought you were asking if you were wrong to have such a faith in such a.. well we'll call it Religion. and my answer was no. if you truly have faith in them then how can you be wrong in believing in them. The Rekoning will come on the Day of Judgement. And while I would like to see your name on the book, I cannot force you to Choose God. If you choose these Aliens, then so be it.

However, I still hold faith in my Religion. For my Faith is that I will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God as renewed my Faith and filled my life with Joy. There is only one God. he is known by many names but is still the one True God.

I could be that I mis understood your question. I thought you were asking if you were wrong to have such a faith in such a.. well we'll call it Religion. and my answer was no. if you truly have faith in them then how can you be wrong in believing in them. The Rekoning will come on the Day of Judgement. And while I would like to see your name on the book, I cannot force you to Choose God. If you choose these Aliens, then so be it.

However, I still hold faith in my Religion. For my Faith is that I will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God as renewed my Faith and filled my life with Joy. There is only one God. he is known by many names but is still the one True God.

But heres the thing your wrong. You are blinding yourself to the truth that is the Raelian religion. All you have to do to experience happiness and learn the truth is to have faith in the aliens and to put your life in their hands. And you will never be able to experience the truth until you put aside all your doubts and have faith in them. Either this statement above is true and your beliefs are wrong or there is something wrong with the statement I have just made.

Seriously though... God? or Satan...
Neither ... not sure they exist :p

But heres the thing your wrong. You are blinding yourself to the truth that is the Raelian religion. All you have to do to experience happiness and learn the truth is to have faith in the aliens and to put your life in their hands. And you will never be able to experience the truth until you put aside all your doubts and have faith in them. Either this statement above is true and your beliefs are wrong or there is something wrong with the statement I have just made.If you are forcing me to select one to be wrong. Then I will go with the Raelians being false.

now, your next question would most likely be Why.

Simple.
1) I have only your Word that the Raelians exsist and want only to give knowledge to man. If you hold their faith, then you have their knowledge. I am happy for you. enjoy it.

2) I believe Knowledge should be learned. If it is given, then the discipline in learning this knowledge will be lost. already Science builds on past successes thus it's easy to go from a "should we" mentallity to a "Why not" mentallity.

3) the Bible provides witness accounts as well as teaching to base ones life on. all of the surviving Religions have that base.

4) God has already Proven Himself to me. I will certainly not test him again.

OOC: bad lag today... :(

If you are forcing me to select one to be wrong. Then I will go with the Raelians being false.

now, your next question would most likely be Why.

Simple.
1) I have only your Word that the Raelians exsist and want only to give knowledge to man. If you hold their faith, then you have their knowledge. I am happy for you. enjoy it.

2) I believe Knowledge should be learned. If it is given, then the discipline in learning this knowledge will be lost. already Science builds on past successes thus it's easy to go from a "should we" mentallity to a "Why not" mentallity.

3) the Bible provides witness accounts as well as teaching to base ones life on. all of the surviving Religions have that base.

4) God has already Proven Himself to me. I will certainly not test him again.

OOC: bad lag today... :(


I asked what is wrong with my reasoning in my statement not what is wrong with the Raelian religion or for you to justify the christian religion. Either my reasoning is wrong and I am wrong or my reasoning is correct and your beliefs are wrong. I have given you the statement that you need to have faith in the aliens and put your life in their hands or you can never see the truth that the Raelian religion is the one true religion. Either there is something wrong with the reasoning in this statement or it is right. If you think it is wrong what is the problem with the statement.

But heres the thing your wrong. You are blinding yourself to the truth that is the Raelian religion. All you have to do to experience happiness and learn the truth is to have faith in the aliens and to put your life in their hands. And you will never be able to experience the truth until you put aside all your doubts and have faith in them. Either this statement above is true and your beliefs are wrong or there is something wrong with the statement I have just made.
if you wish for me to find what is wrong with your statement.

it is this. It is too Generalized. too sweeping, as if it doesn't want to offend. It tries to be nice to everyone. yet tries to prove why those who cannot believe, cannot see. It asks for blind devotion without giving any information as to why such devotion is nesessary or what the rewards for such devotion are. or even what to baise these devotions on.

In other words, it's designed not to call for faith, but to answer the Doubters.

if you wish for me to find what is wrong with your statement.

it is this. It is too Generalized. too sweeping, as if it doesn't want to offend. It tries to be nice to everyone. yet tries to prove why those who cannot believe, cannot see.

In other words, it's designed not to call for faith, but to answer the Doubters.

Actually it is a call for faith. I am telling you right now that your religion is wrong. Everything you have followed from it has been a lie. Your whole life you have been following false ideals. Everything that has happened to you has had no greater meaning and there is no pearly gate at the end of the journey that your religion has described. IT IS ALL A LIE blinding you from the one true religion the raelian religion. All you have to do to see the truth is to forget about the lies you have been told and put your faith in the aliens and put your life in their hands. You yourself have said that in order to truely find god you have to have faith and put your life in his hands. Well I am telling you that you were wrong in that statement and that you really have to put your faith in the aliens. I have asked you what is wrong with the reasoning in this statement. Saying it is too generalized is not answering what is wrong with the reasoning just an answer designed to skirt around having to put forth a serious one. Now can you give me a serious answer as to what is wrong with the reasoning in this statement or if there is nothing wrong with the reasoning it is right and the christian concept of god is not true.

Actually it is a call for faith. I am telling you right now that your religion is wrong. Everything you have followed from it has been a lie. Your whole life you have been following false ideals.
as you keep saying... but you offer nothing as counterpoint from your 'religion'
Everything that has happened to you has had no greater meaning and there is no pearly gate at the end of the journey that your religion has described. IT IS ALL A LIE blinding you from the one true religion the raelian religion. again, a claim it's a lie but no proof otherwise... especially to point that the Raelian Religion is the... what did you call it... oh the ONE TRUE religion...
All you have to do to see the truth is to forget about the lies you have been told and put your faith in the aliens and put your life in their hands. just like that... snap your fingers... again, the Raelien Religion offers nothing I want.You yourself have said that in order to truely find god you have to have faith and put your life in his hands. and I hold to that statement. without faith you won't find God.Well I am telling you that you were wrong in that statement and that you really have to put your faith in the aliens. and I am still waiting for they why...
I have asked you what is wrong with the reasoning in this statement. Saying it is too generalized is not answering what is wrong with the reasoning just an answer designed to skirt around having to put forth a serious one.being to generalized, to designed to put down the naysayers is a sign of fabrication. asking for something without giving nothing. Now can you give me a serious answer as to what is wrong with the reasoning in this statement or if there is nothing wrong with the reasoning it is right and the christian concept of god is not true.I already answered you. and yes, too generalized is an answer because that is WHAT I SEE IS WRONG with your statement. In the Christian teachings, Accepting Christ as your lord and savior and having faith in God is necessary for salvation. now untill you do, you can still hear the teachings, still come to fellowship, you can still learn... but for your religion, inorder to hear them, in order to learn, it requires the Faith first.

I never said you needed Faith to learn about God. but to stand in the street and say "Ok, God, lay some proof on me then I'll believe you" while the proof is in the Bible is rather... Blind.

In the Christian teachings, Accepting Christ as your lord and savior and having faith in God is necessary for salvation. now untill you do, you can still hear the teachings, still come to fellowship, you can still learn... but for your religion, inorder to hear them, in order to learn, it requires the Faith first.

I never said you needed Faith to learn about God. but to stand in the street and say "Ok, God, lay some proof on me then I'll believe you" while the proof is in the Bible is rather... Blind.

And the same thing is true with the Raelian religion. You need to have faith in them in order to truely be saved and you can still hear their teachings from the members of the religion and the man who actually got a message from the Aliens. What I am asking you is if you can not accept the raelian religion based on the fact that I have just told you they are the one true religion and that you need faith in them in order to know the truth then why is it any different for christianity. You say there is no proof in my statement and yet when you say you need to have faith in god in order to learn which is on the same ground as my statement. You can disprove the bible just as fast as you can disprove the founder of the raelian religion who claims that the aliens actually contacted him. And yet you say you need to have faith in order to learn about god. I presented you with the same statement from the viewpoint of another religion and you rejected it. And yet even though it is preposterous for that religion to have no facts to back up what it says and claim that you need faith to see the truth Christianity gets to use this arguement without any criticism.

What he's saying is he wants a club house.

Can anyone join in??

Its just that you say you need to have faith in god in order to truely learn about him but as soon as i present another view point saying the same thing you reject it because it lacks proof with the religion you believe in. Well if it lacks proof and you are not willing to accept it based on that then why do you go around saying you need to first have faith in god in order to get some sort of proof. You basically say well it doesnt get to work for this religion because I dont like it and it does nothing for you but when you talk about christinity you get to use this arguement and there is nothing wrong with it. Dont you find that hypocritical and more to the point if it doesnt get to work for the Raelians why should Christianity get to use that arguement?

I think it means that he just took on the first faith that hit him.

I am really not trying to disprove the belief that there is a god(I am agnostic) but what I am trying to disprove is the silly notion that you need to put numerous choices and your life at stake without any proof whatsoever being offered. I mean it is just incredible how much ignorance this mindset can lead to let alone the dangerous effects caused by believing this. And the hypocracy is also mindbogling. As soon as I say the same thing that Nekone says about faith Nekone rejects it and wants proof. Yet when Christianity is mentioned Nekone stands by the arguement he just rejected. Its rediculous.

And the same thing is true with the Raelian religion. You need to have faith in them in order to truely be saved and you can still hear their teachings from the members of the religion and the man who actually got a message from the Aliens.
ahh.. now suddenly more information is coming... after asking for more, I finally get it... alas too late.
What I am asking you is if you can not accept the raelian religion based on the fact that I have just told you they are the one true religion and that you need faith in them in order to know the truth then why is it any different for christianity. you never gave any Fact. no 'Teachings' no 'Examples' nothing.

1) if that is how others witnessed to you... then no wonder you lost your faith. I've never heard of anyone saying to anybody... Faith first then the information comes. Not even in these threads.

2) I never said you needed Faith to know the Truth. but you need to believe to find God. there is a difference. Without Faith, all you will see are the Scientific explinations. not saying they are false, but that is all you'll see.
When Moses threw down his staff and it became a serpent, the Pharohs 'Wise Men' did the same. and while the Pharoh only saw that his people could perform the same trick, he failed to notice what happened to the Staves of the Wise men. he continued to disbelieve until it came to the point where God had to do the one thing that even he could not disprove and you know what... he still didn't believe. because he had no Faith in God and thus grasped at any and all explinations.

You say there is no proof in my statement and yet when you say you need to have faith in god in order to learn which is on the same ground as my statement. You can disprove the bible just as fast as you can disprove the founder of the raelian religion who claims that the aliens actually contacted him. And yet you say you need to have faith in order to learn about god. Nope... I said You needed Faith to Find God. Anyone can Learn about God. I never said Faith was necessary to Learn about God. Meanwhile you never stated anything to prove a basis of your faith.
I presented you with the same statement from the viewpoint of another religion and you rejected it. and I ask questions about your religion and got no answer, in fact, you got angry and accused me of not being serious. at least when you asked, I pointed you to those who could answer your questions, but you couldn't answer mine, until now, you didn't even point me in any direction and even then the directions are vauge.
And yet even though it is preposterous for that religion to have no facts to back up what it says and claim that you need faith to see the truth Christianity gets to use this arguement without any criticism.LOL... again, I never said you needed faith to see the Truth. Only to Find God. How can you find God if you don't know anything about him. So you learn. through the learning, Faith is developed and then, when you least expect it, you will find that all this time, God was standing right there beside you.

and as for your little aliens... my answers are honest. I am still with God because you've given me nothing. christiantiy can give you parables, lessions, stories, and answer your questions even before you think about Belief or Faith.

I am really not trying to disprove the belief that there is a god(I am agnostic) but what I am trying to disprove is the silly notion that you need to put numerous choices and your life at stake without any proof whatsoever being offered. I mean it is just incredible how much ignorance this mindset can lead to let alone the dangerous effects caused by believing this. And the hypocracy is also mindbogling. As soon as I say the same thing that Nekone says about faith Nekone rejects it and wants proof. Yet when Christianity is mentioned Nekone stands by the arguement he just rejected. Its rediculous.but again what proof would you accept? after all, you don't believe the written accounts of people who were there. so what proof do you need... how often must this proof be supplied when it's already around you.

I never rejected your alien religion. I just choose mine when you "Forced" the choice on me.

I choose not to hold Faith to your little green men and still don't. I don't condemn you for leaving the faith. I don't condemn anyone who worships Idols for that isn't my task.

I think it means that he just took on the first faith that hit him.
Actually it was the first faith that 'hit' me but I did try Buddism (family Religion) before attending a Catholic church. then I went to A Baptist one and felt extremely comfortable there.

Many people go through a 'rebellion' stage in their religious life, but usually end up more or less where they started, and usually in a slightly-different system than their parents, from what I've seen. Catholics becoming protestants, et cetera.

And Nekone: Are you saying you would have no faith if there were no 'teachings' and so forth? You need rules and stories to believe?