NationStates Jolt Archive

you all will say you do when the End of days comes!

you all will say you do when the End of days comes!
Uh, which one?

Uh, which one?
His /hers cause OBVIOUSLY it is the only right one :rolleyes: [/sarcasm]

Mid if I ask you what has led you to this conclusion?
She doesn't have a conclusion yet :p

Have you been there? (Hell)

I was, and man was I glad I took my double-barelled shotgun with me.

Interesting: Totally the Earth has seen roughly 150-200 BILLION human beings. Shouldn't heaven and hell get crowded?

Heaven and hell are infinite.

I follow Asimov: If there is a heaven and hell no torture of hell can be worse than the boredom of heaven.

You don't experience boredom.

Can you imagine ETERNITY walking around in heaven? You would go insane!

In heaven, all troubles and worries are nonexistent. Therefore boredom won't be a problem for you. Uh.. imagine being high for eternity.

I also want to know who created God. In different old mythologies the gods usually had parents. Is there a Dad Creator? Maybe he had all his children create their own universe? I am an Atheist, watch out!

This answer has been asked and answered over and over. No one created God. God had no father. God had no creator. God was there because he was there. Before God, there was nothing. Nothing.

Heaven and hell are infinite.



You don't experience boredom.



In heaven, all troubles and worries are nonexistent. Therefore boredom won't be a problem for you. Uh.. imagine being high for eternity.



This answer has been asked and answered over and over. No one created God. God had no father. God had no creator. God was there because he was there. Before God, there was nothing. Nothing.


Any of the first 3 statements backed up by anything but wishes?

And the last does not make sence if you take the traditional arguement of why their can not have been a big bang. If everything requires a creator so does god

Nooo, because God is Magic(TM)! :rolleyes:

of course God is real. if not how was the big bang created. who created what made the big bang. there is no proof of it anyway. it says in the bible that god created the world and that is right. you say we have no proof well listen, the bible is the bestselling book in the world

This answer has been asked and answered over and over. No one created God. God had no father. God had no creator. God was there because he was there. Before God, there was nothing. Nothing.
If there was a "before God", then there must have been some reason he came into being, some cause for him to be.

of course God is real. if not how was the big bang created. who created what made the big bang. there is no proof of it anyway. it says in the bible that god created the world and that is right. you say we have no proof well listen, the bible is the bestselling book in the world
So the Big Bang proves God? So popularity proves God?

If there was a "before God", then there must have been some reason he came into being, some cause for him to be.
Well what I mean by that is that nothing was before God therefore God was the beginning.

I do not believe there is a god, even though I do believe in an afterlife. As you can see, not your typical atheist. :-P

I do not believe there is a god, even though I do believe in an afterlife. As you can see, not your typical atheist. :-P
Haha, I'm the opposite.

I do believe there is something of a higher power, but I choose not to worship.

Well what I mean by that is that nothing was before God therefore God was the beginning.
Again, if there was a beginning, that implies something before the beginning, which implies something caused a beginning. If there was nothing before God, then there was no beginning.

How can people say what "nothing" exactly is, because if its nothing how can it be something if its nothing, and nothing isnt nothing if its something...lol

I like the popularity argument.

Makes me wonder if such people would jump from a high tower if everyone would do it.

Shall I say... sheep mentality?

Any of the first 3 statements backed up by anything but wishes?

And the last does not make sence if you take the traditional arguement of why their can not have been a big bang. If everything requires a creator so does god
Well Hell technically doesn't exist yet. According to Islam, wrongdoers will be put to death - a state of nothingness during which they see Hell day and night in a continuous nightmare that lasts until the Day of Judgment (That's when hell will be created to accomodate the amount of people so I was kind of off) (40:46, 89:23). As for heaven, I heard there will always be place enough for people because Allah expands heaven.

As for the boredom, take Adam and Eve when they were created. They lived without worries or problems in paradise. Same way.

Since you brought up the big bang:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/hot_gas.htm

Hot gas?

God farted and the universe was born?

Cool...

Actually, if you take some people... it must have been a fart.

Jesus to God "Dang dad... stop farting. St. Peter has already complained, he doesn't know where to store all the universes."

Again, if there was a beginning, that implies something before the beginning, which implies something caused a beginning. If there was nothing before God, then there was no beginning.
If there was no beginning then we wouldn't be here. God is eternal. He has always been in existence and always will be.

if there were no god mankind would have destroyed itself a long time ago.
it's constantly trying to - usually in the name of [insert supreme being of choice]. Think of all the christian crusades that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the name of God. Think of Bush's self titled 'crusade' in Iraq. think of al-quida's attack on the twin towers in the name of allah. religion causes war - even though nearly all of them were founded on the desire for peace. I have no problem with people being religous, there is no denying that it comforts many people... but that does not make it true.

yeah we've got a nice planet and it's a bit of luck we've got it but in the words of douglas adams "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairies at the bottom of it?"

I noticed how SOME atheists bash religion for not tolerating other beliefs but I find they themselves are intolerant of religious beliefs.

Does God exist?

Yes, but only because a lot of people believe he does.

By that token, when people cease to believe in God, he will cease to exist. I imagine that this will happen towards the end of this century.


Man made God, not the other way round.

I noticed how SOME atheists bash religion for not tolerating other beliefs but I find they themselves are intolerant of religious beliefs.
yes and SOME religous people lynch children going to harry potter clubs. christians are not proud of these extremists in their group, atheists are not proud of the extremists in theirs. swings and roundabouts.

yes and SOME religous people lynch children going to harry potter clubs. christians are not proud of these extremists in their group, atheists are not proud of the extremists in theirs. swings and roundabouts.
I hate Harry Potter. The reason? He's an arrogant British prick!

Nope, if god existed, he wouldn't give us all this faith rubbish as an excuse, he'd just prove it and let us get on with our lives.

If there was no beginning then we wouldn't be here. God is eternal. He has always been in existence and always will be.
I thought we were talking about God being the beginning? If God is eternal then there is no beginning to God. Perhaps you are talking about God being the beginning of all, but that is a different matter.

How can people say what "nothing" exactly is, because if its nothing how can it be something if its nothing, and nothing isnt nothing if its something...lol
"Nothing" is the absence of "something." :)

I thought we were talking about God being the beginning? If God is eternal then there is no beginning to God. Perhaps you are talking about God being the beginning of all, but that is a different matter.
Exactly.

im a wiccan, yes that means im a witch, i beleve in mulyiple gods/ godesses. i dont believe in the chrristian god. if ther was ne god were was he during 9/11 or why did he make the indonisan earthqake/tusnumia? i men in our religion the gods/ godess have wars ie the eruption of amountain a war betwwen earth and fire

im a wiccan, yes that means im a witch, i beleve in mulyiple gods/ godesses. i dont believe in the chrristian god. if ther was ne god were was he during 9/11 or why did he make the indonisan earthqake/tusnumia? i men in our religion the gods/ godess have wars ie the eruption of amountain a war betwwen earth and fire
There's reasons behind everything. Reasons that humans are not aware of. God is the most merciful and he is also the most wrathful.

Yes, God is there.... I should be dead right now. But I'm not... And that is all because of God. Just answer this question: Who gives us life? Yes, we are here... but there is something inside of us that defines weather or not we are living. Look at this from a medical point of view... say that someone is on the operating table, having surgery. The doctor does EVERYTHING correct, to the book. Yet the patient still dies. And lets say another person has exactly the same condition, yet lives. Who defines life? How can a cell divide into everything perfectly, and what defines each cell as... a leg cell, a heart cell tissue, etc. etc...

Say everything evolved- out of nothing.... That is like taking an empty box, and shaking it up over millions of years. Now, SOMEHOW the pieces of the watch got there, and... *gasp* They got all put together... and PERFECTLY! And not only that... but it's running... That is what we are saying about human life. We exploded out of nothing. Is that even logical?

What about near death experiences? In the medical field, you see many things, as well as read many things. I saw this: An elderly man was having a stroke, and all of the sudden, his heart stopped. He died. But... the doctor did not give up! He revived him. When he woke up, he was screaming, shaking, and sweating... The place he had described was dark, boiling hot, and terrifying. I have also read about this too... some people, before being revived, have either gone to one place or the other. There are SO many cases out there like this- research it!

And then there is a car accident... well, what SHOULD have been one. Both cars are on a mountain road, and there is a drop off. It is raining. One car slips, and... by all logical explanations, this should have been a horrible car accident, maybe even resulting in deaths. The people in both cars described it this way: "It felt like there was a pillow between both of us. All the sudden, miraculously, the car stopped softly, within a couple centimeters between us." How does one describe that?

The Bible. Read it... it explains everything. God is like the wind... though you can't see or hear Him, He is there. I have seen Him at work, in even my very life. Thing that are unexplainable, things that I would have never been able to do on my own- I can do with God's help.

One other thing... There are chariot wheels on the bottom of the Red Sea. Read Exodus.

Does God exist?

Yes, but only because a lot of people believe he does.

By that token, when people cease to believe in God, he will cease to exist. I imagine that this will happen towards the end of this century.

Man made God, not the other way round.
Mankind created the many and varied images of 'God' --symbols, something mankind could relate to (God as male, God as love, Goddess as Earth, etc). We build up mythologies around these images, that being our means of relating, and to further delinate the image. These are what matter to us because they involve our direct participation. These exist because of us, and would cease if mankind stopped using them. God is not the images of 'God'. God is an unknown; all we really know of god is in how we relate to it. Everything else is imaginative. Whatever god may be, we cannot truthfully say it is dependent on us; we cannot truthfully say the many images of 'God' are all that god is.

And then there is a car accident... well, what SHOULD have been one. Both cars are on a mountain road, and there is a drop off. It is raining. One car slips, and... by all logical explanations, this should have been a horrible car accident, maybe even resulting in deaths. The people in both cars described it this way: "It felt like there was a pillow between both of us. All the sudden, miraculously, the car stopped softly, within a couple centimeters between us." How does one describe that?
An excellent example of a sign.

im a wiccan, yes that means im a witch, i beleve in mulyiple gods/ godesses. i dont believe in the chrristian god. if ther was ne god were was he during 9/11 or why did he make the indonisan earthqake/tusnumia? i men in our religion the gods/ godess have wars ie the eruption of amountain a war betwwen earth and fire


A father could be walking along with his little child. But that child could fall, right by the father. But the child knows, from the father's unconditional love, that the father will pick the child up and carry him in his arms. The Father did not allow the child to fall, but the child fell himself. It is the father's promise, however, that He will be with us, and carry us, because of His unconditional love.

We fall because we live in a sinful world. We are not perfect; only God is. Sin brings on sickness, death, destruction, etc. We live in an evil world, and we are sinful humans with sin natures.

God created us perfect, giving us a choice of free will. We either obey and follow Him, or we don't. The fall of man was in the Garden of Eden, when Adam defied God. God did not just leave us to die in our own sin though! (That is the penalty for our sin.) Jesus Died for us, an amazing sacrifice, taking on the punishment for our own sins, and showing us mercy beyong comprehension.

What we choose to do with that is up to us: We can either accept or reject. Accepting, we choose God to be our father, who will pick us up when we fall, and who will be with us through trials. It's not that God allows bad things to happen...

Sin brings on sickness, death, destruction, etc.
Even the most deovoutly religous get sick now and then. Everybody dies of something - are you saying there are absolutely no sinless people in the world? Or is everybody infected by their suuroundings?

and as for the medical argument it amazes me that doctors explain every little thing that is wrong with you yet you still think there is some higher purpose as to why some people survive and others don't.

the old man and the stroke complaining he'd returned from a boiling hot place, I'm guessing that people in pain are on a LOT of drugs and these could easily affect different people in different ways - say in a hallucinogenic way?

I hate Harry Potter. The reason? He's an arrogant British prick!
fine! you are allowed hate harry potter - but I really hope you don't think lynching school children on their way to a harry potter book club in the name of religion is a good thing to do? i may well be taking your comment too seriously and if i am, i am sorry, otherwise that's pretty scary!

Even the most deovoutly religous get sick now and then. Everybody dies of something - are you saying there are absolutely no sinless people in the world? Or is everybody infected by their suuroundings?

and as for the medical argument it amazes me that doctors explain every little thing that is wrong with you yet you still think there is some higher purpose as to why some people survive and others don't.

the old man and the stroke complaining he'd returned from a boiling hot place, I'm guessing that people in pain are on a LOT of drugs and these could easily affect different people in different ways - say in a hallucinogenic way?


People get sick and die because we live in a world where there is sick and evil. Disasters happen, crime, things that are horrible. The world is turning away from God and the world is turning up-side-down. Sickness is common and disasters happen. And yes, I am saying that there are NO sinless people in the world- all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. Only God is perfect.

As for the medical thing, my main point was a question: Who defines life? Who says when it's time for us to die? What IS life? What makes us alive?

The old man thing... I suggest you research things about that subject... It proves that there is after life.

People get sick and die because we live in a world where there is sick and evil. Disasters happen, crime, things that are horrible. The world is turning away from God and the world is turning up-side-down. Sickness is common and disasters happen. And yes, I am saying that there are NO sinless people in the world- all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. Only God is perfect.

As for the medical thing, my main point was a question: Who defines life? Who says when it's time for us to die? What IS life? What makes us alive?

The old man thing... I suggest you research things about that subject... It proves that there is after life.
I would say that people are turning away from god because the world is turning upside-down small but there is a difference

I find it interesting that, to date, sixty people have checked "don't know." How can you not know if you believe something? Either you believe it, or you don't. This is not a "shades of grey" question.

To all you wishful thinkers out there, I hope you enjoy your delusions, but please keep them to yourselves, and out of our government.

I find it interesting that, to date, sixty people have checked "don't know." How can you not know if you believe something? Either you believe it, or you don't. This is not a "shades of grey" question.

To all you wishful thinkers out there, I hope you enjoy your delusions, but please keep them to yourselves, and out of our government.
Um its called agnostic ... you dont believe that it can be proven so you wish to abstain
I believe it is not possible to know
Therefore I dont know if I believe in god ... it was the only option close to what I believe

I should say I do not believe in the other two options but hey that was not an option

I would say that people are turning away from god because the world is turning upside-down small but there is a difference
*Stands on her head*

The question is not "Do you know there is a god?", the question is "Do you believe in God?" If you can't be convinced of god's existence, you certainly can't be said to believe in him.

I would say that people are turning away from god because the world is turning upside-down small but there is a difference

That is backwards... Hmm... let me think of a way to put this. OK, remember when America was first founded? The government was set up based on the Bible and God's standards, and America became the freest nation in the world; it prospered. *not saying it was perfect, but God helped it to succeed because our nation trusted in God.* Now, our government is trying to take our motto, "In God we trust," off of our coins, and take all Biblical principles out of schools. Ever sinse we have tried to take God out of society, our nation has declined farther and farther in moral values, and our nation is falling down. The Bible says that, "Blessed is the nation whos God is the Lord." "IN God we trust" was the way our nation was- now look at it. We have turned our backs on God, and our nation is suffering because of it.

The question is not "Do you know there is a god?", the question is "Do you believe in God?" If you can't be convinced of god's existence, you certainly can't be said to believe in him.
I believe in god, not in its physical existence though. My belief is founded in an understanding of my relationship to god, and my purpose in having that relationship. I can understand why some choose "don't know"; to me, this means they haven't found a purpose or a good reason to build a relationship to god.

I find it interesting that, to date, sixty people have checked "don't know." How can you not know if you believe something? Either you believe it, or you don't. This is not a "shades of grey" question.

I didn't answer at all because it seems to be a loaded question. The opening post asks if one believes in "God" - as if there were only one God, though which God was not specified. If it's referring to the God of the Christians (which I assume it probably does), then no, I do not. If I asked you, "Do you believe in Mike?" would this mean anything at all to you, or would you ask me to be more specific? "I don't know" seems to be the only real choice, since the originator of this thread didn't make the question a bit clearer.

To all you wishful thinkers out there, I hope you enjoy your delusions, but please keep them to yourselves, and out of our government.

I agree that people should keep their religious beliefs to themselves and not try to push them on the rest of their country or the world. We don't need the 10 Commandments displayed in public schools or parks or government buildings. We don't need blue laws honoring the Christian (or any other) Sabbath. We don't need the Creationists forcing their so-called theories into the public school science classrooms, to be taught either in place of or along side proper scientific theories. We don't need Christians leading prayers to their God in the name of their intermediary at non-religious public events (we don't need any other kind of prayers at said events, but other religions don't behave this way - at least, not in the U.S.). We don't need the words "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. We don't need "In God We Trust" on our money. We do need Christians to keep their noses out of our personal business, and what Gods and/or Goddesses we may worship and how we worship them comes under the category of our personal business! I, for one, will be so glad when they finally get that through their thick skulls!

First off, yes I believe in God and I am a Christian. Do I dislike some of the things other Christians do? Yes. Do I sometimes have doubts about God? Yup. However, I think faith and doubt co-exist (oh, and I can show you an instance in the Bible if anyone is interested.)

Secondly, why not allow people to express their various religious beliefs? Some of you have CERTAINLY been able to express your opinion that you have no religious beliefs. I don't understand why people talking about their beliefs is "cramming religion down throats". I don't chase people around telling them to repent, go to church, or accept Jesus as their Savior. Why don't I? I try to live with I believe, when people ask, I answer...it's as simple as that. I screw up, make mistakes, and fall on the grace of God.

Third, Christians, it seems, have a bum rap anyway. While many say that the United States were founded as a Christian nation I can hardly agree. It is true that when the Puritans came, they were seeking religious freedom. However, the actual FOUNDERS of this land, the Native Americans were not "Christians" per say. Those who wrote the Constituion, et al., were mainly deists, but some were indeed Christians. Deists have simlar morals and values to Christians. They believe in God, but do not seek a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. They sort of think being "good" and believing in God is a necessity.

Thanks for reading my post and I am definitely open to discussion on this. :)

Sin brings on sickness, death, destruction, etc.
ahh, so it was sin that caused the recent tsunami? and sin that causes hurricanes? and sin that causes earthquakes?

seriously, you don't actually buy that tripe, do you? i figure anybody dumb enough or crazy enough to believe that crap would also been unable to use a computer, so you must be having a bit of a laugh with us.

Secondly, why not allow people to express their various religious beliefs? Some of you have CERTAINLY been able to express your opinion that you have no religious beliefs. I don't understand why people talking about their beliefs is "cramming religion down throats". I don't chase people around telling them to repent, go to church, or accept Jesus as their Savior. Why don't I? I try to live with I believe, when people ask, I answer...it's as simple as that. I screw up, make mistakes, and fall on the grace of God.

I'm not sure which post you were responding to with this, but in case it was mine, what I was talking about had nothing to do with discussing religion with your friends and family, or in forums such as this one. I was very specific in listing the methods Christians use in forcing their religious beliefs on others that I strongly object to (please see the post that appears just before the one I am responding to).

Those who wrote the Constituion, et al., were mainly deists, but some were indeed Christians. Deists have simlar morals and values to Christians. They believe in God, but do not seek a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. They sort of think being "good" and believing in God is a necessity.


Firstly, you are mischaracterizing deists. They may think being good is necessary, and they may think believing in God is necessary, but they do not believe the two are linked in any way. Deists believe that God has no interest whatsoever in the present or future of this world, and don't believe in heaven or hell. They do good because they believe in the principle of doing good.

We as a society have been able to construct a moral code that does not rely upon the principle of divine retribution. It is called Humanism, and it is superior to Christianity in every way. And when the founding fathers placed their identity on the United States, they were employing the principles of Humanism.

Atheists usually embrace humanism, and it is well-established that atheists commit fewer crimes per capita than Christians do. Food for thought.

Pterdonia, ah, yes, I see your post...let me take a moment to respond. :)


I agree that people should keep their religious beliefs to themselves and not try to push them on the rest of their country or the world.

I partially agree. People don't need to "push" their beliefs on the country/world, but why not allow people to talk about them freely? For example, if I asked you what you believe and vice versa, why not engage in a conversation about it? Beliefs of all kinds come up in conversation, why exclude religion? Also, why if someone doesn't know about a particular belief and they are interested in sharing in it...why cannot information be passed along?

We don't need the 10 Commandments displayed in public schools or parks or government buildings.

Again, why not? They encompass several different religious traditions....should we remove everything that encompasses why other people believe--Christmas, Easter, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, St. Patrick's Day, Valentine's Day? I mean, they could be "offensive" to certain people as they do promote certain viewpoints. Maybe we should get rid of African pride and Hispanic Awareness, too. I'm caucasian, maybe I don't care or need to know about other cultures. Or perhaps we can choose to embrace diversity and ignore what we don't care about.

We don't need blue laws honoring the Christian (or any other) Sabbath.

I agree. If people want to honor the Sabbath or a day of rest, they can choose to do so without closing things down.

We don't need the Creationists forcing their so-called theories into the public school science classrooms, to be taught either in place of or along side proper scientific theories.

Creation IS NOT taught in schools. But even if it was, evolution and other "proper scientific theories" are just that, theory.

We don't need Christians leading prayers to their God in the name of their intermediary at non-religious public events (we don't need any other kind of prayers at said events, but other religions don't behave this way - at least, not in the U.S.). We don't need the words "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. We don't need "In God We Trust" on our money

I'm not willing to remove God from society, and obviously as a Christian, I think my views are correct. (I mean, how stupid would I be to think another belief system had better views and still continued to embrace Christianity?) But I'm not sure I agree that there should be prayer at non-religious events. I'm still gnawing on this issue and haven't quite reached a conclusion in all honesty.

We do need Christians to keep their noses out of our personal business, and what Gods and/or Goddesses we may worship and how we worship them comes under the category of our personal business! I, for one, will be so glad when they finally get that through their thick skulls!

I understand what you are saying here. Frankly, I find a lot of Christians annoying myself and I went to church my whole life, went to Christian high school (which I am convinced was a torture chamber for Christians), and just graduated from seminary in June. But please remember, not all Christians are jerks. Because when you start to think that, you are becoming just like the people you seem to dislike. You can choose to worship whom or whatever you like, or not to worship at all. I am not telling you to believe what I believe, but I am willing to answer questions about my faith (if questions are presented in a non-accusatory fashion, that is!)

Thanks for reading my response. :)

[QUOTE=Cabinia]Firstly, you are mischaracterizing deists. They may think being good is necessary, and they may think believing in God is necessary, but they do not believe the two are linked in any way. Deists believe that God has no interest whatsoever in the present or future of this world, and don't believe in heaven or hell. They do good because they believe in the principle of doing good.

I'm sorry. Admittedly, I know very little about deists and only can relate what I thought to be true. Thank you for pointing out the difference. Really, I am not being sarcastic. It's good to know :)

We as a society have been able to construct a moral code that does not rely upon the principle of divine retribution. It is called Humanism, and it is superior to Christianity in every way.

Now, calling it superior isn't very tolerant, now is it? :)

Atheists usually embrace humanism, and it is well-established that atheists commit fewer crimes per capita than Christians do

I have never seen evidence that athiests commit fewer crimes than Christians. I am wondering where you have gotten this statisic. Also, there is a difference between people who call themselves Christians and those who actually follow the Christian principles. :)

I don't have a problem with people talking about religion or making it public, thats perfectly fine and I'll even listen to it because its kind of intresting, but what ticks me off is when politicians support a particular religion.

I'm sorry buy what if your President, while talking about your friends and familys lives that are over in the war, told you to put your faith into a god you don't believe in? The whole praying thing in the inauguration speach pissed me off too, christianity doesn't have a place in the government dammit. I don't see anyone praying to allah or performing wiccan rituals in the white house, I don't want to see christian rituals either. Pratice your religion fine, make it public what you believe fine, but don't start bringing your religion into government affairs.

I still get a laugh at the practice of swearing an oath on the bible in court though, heh, you might as well make me swear an oath on One Fish Two Fish, its not going to mean much of a diffrence.

i am an atheist...not much of a humanist...definatly intolerant....if you are religouse...its best not to talk to me......it would end in us both getting quite angry.. ;)

ahh, so it was sin that caused the recent tsunami? and sin that causes hurricanes? and sin that causes earthquakes?

seriously, you don't actually buy that tripe, do you? i figure anybody dumb enough or crazy enough to believe that crap would also been unable to use a computer, so you must be having a bit of a laugh with us.

I was only saying that it's because we live in an evil world that disasters happen. God made the world perfect, we sinned... we can't excpect to live in a perfect world when we are imperfect humans.

I was only saying that it's because we live in an evil world that disasters happen. God made the world perfect, we sinned... we can't excpect to live in a perfect world when we are imperfect humans.

*shakes head*

Oh my...

Creation IS NOT taught in schools. But even if it was, evolution and other "proper scientific theories" are just that, theory.


creationism is taught in schools..
why is evolution banned in being taught in some states?

I was only saying that it's because we live in an evil world that disasters happen. God made the world perfect, we sinned... we can't excpect to live in a perfect world when we are imperfect humans.

.....if god has ordaned everything..he is all-knowing (apparantly) then...why would he waste time on a race of creatures......i mean ....he had the ability to create a perfect race....so whay did he make people?

Because he's not as perfect as it seems? :P so much for being omniscient and omnipotent.

I was only saying that it's because we live in an evil world that disasters happen. God made the world perfect, we sinned... we can't excpect to live in a perfect world when we are imperfect humans.
if human actions are powerful enough to thwart the will of God, and if God is either unwilling or unable to keep justice and protect the innocent, why worship God? why not give our respect to those who use their power for the betterment of humankind, to protect, to help, to cherish life and honor, rather than worshipping a being that is either too helpless or too uncaring to lift a celestial finger in defense of His own children? if God sends random disasters to kill innocent people simply because OTHER humans commit sinful acts, then why on Earth are we not taking up arms against this hideous sky-dictator?!

your God sounds like a pathetic and cowardly creature, to me, and i will take human sin over God's "perfection" any day of the week.

mabye he aint so perfect, cos there aint a god? what proof do we have of a supirior being? a world and creatures that have been explaind by more plausable means? sorry, fraid im someone who asks why, and how, and wants answers, rather than a simple suggestion of god done it.

if human actions are powerful enough to thwart the will of God, and if God is either unwilling or unable to keep justice and protect the innocent, why worship God? why not give our respect to those who use their power for the betterment of humankind, to protect, to help, to cherish life and honor, rather than worshipping a being that is either too helpless or too uncaring to lift a celestial finger in defense of His own children?

your God sounds like a pathetic and cowardly creature, to me, and i will take human sin over God's "perfection" any day of the week.

...my god lives in a guitar :D

seriously
i agree with you.
if he is so powerfull, why not do something about the problems with the world?

Now, calling it superior isn't very tolerant, now is it? :)


I don't see the connection. I believe Chevrolets are superior to Fords, but that doesn't mean I'm going to abuse Ford drivers.

I have never seen evidence that athiests commit fewer crimes than Christians. I am wondering where you have gotten this statisic.

Schlapp and Smith did a study of religious preferences of the prison population over the last couple of generations, and this is what they found: http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist/prisondo.htm

And here are some more recent statistics: http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Note that atheists make up 8% of the US general population and .209% of its prison population.

Also, there is a difference between people who call themselves Christians and those who actually follow the Christian principles.

Strict adherence to Christian principles is a pipe dream. Ned Flanders characterized the problem best, "I've done everything the Bible says - even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!" Any attempt to follow Christianity requires a salad bar mentality.

u could say that u've never seen god so he doesn't exist. so does that mean the north pole doesn't exist? i've never seen it, i've only heard about so it might not exist. just cos u can't see it don't mean it's not there.
however a supreme being that can control everything? nah, i would rather believe in making my own destiny.

creationism is taught in schools..
why is evolution banned in being taught in some states?
hello sir (good name!)
i'm not sure i buy the evolution theory completely, where i find creationism ridiculous i merely find the evolution theory somewhat incomplete and i'm not about to accept a bad theory for lack of a better one. However, it makes me incredibly sad that creationism is being taught in (largely) the south of the US. it is just such a ridiculous idea that i cannot believe they dare to class it as a science. they'd be pretty fecking pissed of if somebody started teaching conjuring. in biology , people should learn facts, it is as simple as that, learn the evolution theory as it can be backed up (not quite enough in my opinion, but that is besides the point) obviously it should be made clear that it is only a theory but a pretty bloodeh likely theory. some sort of evolution clearly occurred but whoopsie, the bible left that out. I understand not all christians are like this but are these imbeciles who ban ideas completely stupid or incredibly arrogant?

Er, wouldn't a better conclusion be "so therefore we don't know whether he exists or not"?

The burden of proof is on the accusor. He who says there is a God must provide the proof. It's like my saying, well there must be a ten million pound pile of blue aarvarks somewhere.
It is not something logical, therefore it needs proof, because if there is no evidence for or against, logic is always the tie breaker.

u could say that u've never seen god so he doesn't exist. so does that mean the north pole doesn't exist? i've never seen it, i've only heard about so it might not exist. just cos u can't see it don't mean it's not there.
true but it makes it far less likely.

however a supreme being that can control everything? nah, i would rather believe in making my own destiny.
yeah same ... that is until something goes wrong... then it's always good to blame somebody else :P (sarcasm by the way - i hold myself to account or "realise my sins" heheh)

if human actions are powerful enough to thwart the will of God, and if God is either unwilling or unable to keep justice and protect the innocent, why worship God? why not give our respect to those who use their power for the betterment of humankind, to protect, to help, to cherish life and honor, rather than worshipping a being that is either too helpless or too uncaring to lift a celestial finger in defense of His own children? if God sends random disasters to kill innocent people simply because OTHER humans commit sinful acts, then why on Earth are we not taking up arms against this hideous sky-dictator?!

your God sounds like a pathetic and cowardly creature, to me, and i will take human sin over God's "perfection" any day of the week.

We can only see things from two points of view: What has happened, and what is going on right now. We do not know the future, and we do not see things from an eternal perspective. Our actions do not thwart off the will of God! Nothing takes God by surprise... He sees everything from all points of view. The Bible says that "All things work together for good to those who love Him." Every one, weather followers of God or not, undergoes many trials. In trials, we can either run to God for help, or we run away. Paul, in the Bible, says that he rejoices in his weaknesses because "when I am weak, then I am strong." God works through those who or whoely submitted to Him, holds us up when we stumble, and provides for us in ways that, many times, we cannot see or comprehend. I, myself, have gone through many hardships. The more I see how God has worked in my life and in the lives of others (even through trials), the more I praise Him. I see the power He has, and the mercy He has bestowed upon us, and I stand back amazed. My God is all powerful, all-knowing, soverign, and omnipotent. What I have seen through the years cannot be described by nothing more then the power of God; not even my own works. I, alone, cannot do anything myself, and if I try to, I only fail. It is only by the power of God.

.....if god has ordaned everything..he is all-knowing (apparantly) then...why would he waste time on a race of creatures......i mean ....he had the ability to create a perfect race....so whay did he make people?

This is like trying to explain a washer machine to a little ant. Even if we were told... would we understand? We are provided with everything we need to know, and it is NOT our place to judge God. God made us for a reason, and that, I do not know-- But even if we don't know something, it is not our place to judge the creator. That is just... wrong. God has the power to create the whole universe, to do what we can't even understand! God is the ultimate authority- not us.

It doesn't surprise me that so many people take the Bible's passages way too literally.

For instance, does the passage in the Bible that Man was made in God's image mean that God literally has a head and two arms and two legs and a brain and a circulatory and digestive system just like us?
A one-dimensional protagonist would say "Yes, absolutely! That must be what the Bible's talking about!"
But it makes much more sense to me that 'image' is in reference to our soul, and not our physique.



It also doesn't surprise me when people are suckered in by the religious dogma sprinkled throughout the Bible's passages by those to whom its preservation was historically entrusted.

If you were a monk living in the early days of Christianity and someone gave you one of only a few copies of the Bible, telling you to keep it safe and copy it with ink and pen for others to read, wouldn't you feel the least bit tempted to slip a few of your own personal thoughts in the transcription? We humans are, after all, not exactly morally spotless creatures.


Trust me, things make a lot more sense when you take a step back and interpret your faith metaphorically.

I don't know what this thread is going to accomplish. Atheists are hard to convert, and no Christian is going to be un-converted here. Besides, the existence of God is not "decided" by a majority vote; he exists or he doesn't. I believe he exists.

edit: HUZZZAAAAAAHH! Suddenly can post again! :D

This is like trying to explain a washer machine to a little ant. Even if we were told... would we understand? We are provided with everything we need to know, and it is NOT our place to judge God. God made us for a reason, and that, I do not know-- But even if we don't know something, it is not our place to judge the creator. That is just... wrong. God has the power to create the whole universe, to do what we can't even understand! God is the ultimate authority- not us.

you remind me of this :-
A man didn’t understand how televisions work, and was convinced that there must be lots of little men inside the box. manipulating images at high speed. An engineer explained to him about high frequency modulations of the electromagnetic spectrum, about transmitters and receivers, about amplifiers and cathode ray tubes, about scan lines moving across and down a phosphorescent screen. The man listened to the engineer with careful attention, nodding his head at every step of the argument. At the end he pronounced himself satisfied. He really did now understand how televisions work. "But I expect there are just a few little men in there, aren’t there?"
-- Douglas Adams, a parable spoofing creationism that Adams often told, as retold by Richard Dawkins in "Lament for Douglas" (14 May 2001)

it seems that even though we* explain more and more every day using science to explain things but religous people come up with more and more reasons as to why it cannot be true. Fine, be religous i don't mind - but surely you must have some logic?


*by 'we' i mean humans in general

I don't know what this thread is going to accomplish. Atheists are hard to convert, and no Christian is going to be un-converted here. Besides, the existence of God is not "decided" by a majority vote; he exists or he doesn't. I believe he exists.
I'm not trying to "un-convert" anybody, just understand them.

you remind me of this :-
A man didn’t understand how televisions work, and was convinced that there must be lots of little men inside the box. manipulating images at high speed. An engineer explained to him about high frequency modulations of the electromagnetic spectrum, about transmitters and receivers, about amplifiers and cathode ray tubes, about scan lines moving across and down a phosphorescent screen. The man listened to the engineer with careful attention, nodding his head at every step of the argument. At the end he pronounced himself satisfied. He really did now understand how televisions work. "But I expect there are just a few little men in there, aren’t there?"
-- Douglas Adams, a parable spoofing creationism that Adams often told, as retold by Richard Dawkins in "Lament for Douglas" (14 May 2001)

It seems that even though we explain more and more every day using science to explain things but religious people come up with more and more reasons as to why it cannot be true. Fine, be religious I don't mind - but surely you must have some logic?

I think we should reverse that a little bit. See, evolutionary scientists are really good at writing fiction. That's all.

The foundations of the world are an impenetrable, locked black box. At some point in the past, the person who constructed the box left a note, saying what was inside the box.

But society stopped caring about the man who made the black box, and many thousands of years later, the black box continues to function, and everyone just takes it for granted.

THEN, some people who didn't like the people who still read the note, decided that the note must not be true. And they began to dislike the man who made the box. These people were great in numbers. So, they came up with a plan.

they decided they would study the outside of the box as much as they could. When they finished studying the box, to the best of their abilities (which pale in comparison to the maker of the box), they arbitrarily proclaimed what was inside the box.

But indeed, it was not so. The people with the note attempted to politely point this out the the majority of boxmaker-haters.

So the haters took their case to court. In this court, since the maker-haters were already in the majority in society, it was quickly decided that this new idea must be given credence as an alternative to the old note.

The population of the maker-haters grew exponentially, and many of their descendants became teachers of the sciences. Naturally, there descendants were brainwashed by the generation before, and predisposed to teach the arbitrary theory of what was inside the box.

A whole generation was taught that the arbitrary assumption that the maker-haters had made was truth. Gradually it became less and less acceptable to read from the note.

Which leads us to the present day.

Being in the majority does not make you right. Simply because our education systems have been perverted and enable to brainwash our chidren that evolution is true, does.not.make.it.so.

I don't know what this thread is going to accomplish. Atheists are hard to convert, and no Christian is going to be un-converted here. Besides, the existence of God is not "decided" by a majority vote; he exists or he doesn't. I believe he exists.

edit: HUZZZAAAAAAHH! Suddenly can post again! :D

The point of this thread was simply to see how many theists and atheists were really out there.

I don't believe in a God.

Heaven and hell first came up in the middle ages, so it's made up.

I think Jesus has existed. He oppossed against the Romains. They put him on a cross. And lived on in the hearts of the people. He didn't came back alive.

Like I always say... if God is really all-powerful, all-loving and caring, why the hell does he demand our worship? He must be really insecure.

Like I always say... if God is really all-powerful, all-loving and caring, why the hell does he demand our worship? He must be really insecure.

Another also: if he is all loving, why does he demand blood sacrifice? (as in the old testament) Does God get a rise out of having animals slaughterded?

Wow I'm surprise. The people that picked No actually outnumber the people that picked Yes.

Interesting fairy tale, Winter Alliance. I'm a Brothers Grimm fan myself.

Another also: if he is all loving, why does he demand blood sacrifice? (as in the old testament) Does God get a rise out of having animals slaughterded?

Indeed. Not only that, but he is responsible for ordering the deaths of many innocent people ... like Hitler.

Like I always say... if God is really all-powerful, all-loving and caring, why the hell does he demand our worship? He must be really insecure.

He created us to worship Him. That is our "point." Our reason for existing. It doesn't make any sense not too. But it won't affect Him one way or the other if you don't... infinity is much too big to be affected by YOU. Worship is for your benefit. Worship brings you into new knowledge and emotional awareness. Worship places you in right standing with the Creator, which leads to spending eternity with Him. Heaven, in a strange way, is God showing His appreciation for your worship, which He doesn't really have to do because you're supposed to worship Him anyway.

In fact, true fairness would be for us to be forced to worship God for thousands of years straight and then send us to hell anyway - cause we've already earned it by being born human.

Fortunately, God is also merciful and creative enough to think of a way to redeem that He feels is fair. He let His Son, the only perfect human, sacrifice Himself for us. He didn't have to. But He did.

The only piece left in the puzzle for those who believe this, is why unbelievers hate a God like that so much. That is a puzzle :confused:

The only piece left in the puzzle for those who believe this, is why unbelievers hate a God like that so much. That is a puzzle :confused:

Religious wars, churchleaders bossing around people and making them scared in the middle ages (even now in some places), ...

I don't hate God, if there even is one. I hate that people use God to justify thing that are wrong.

Let's invade evil countries and God bless us all :rolleyes:

He created us to worship Him. That is our "point." Our reason for existing. It doesn't make any sense not too. But it won't affect Him one way or the other if you don't... infinity is much too big to be affected by YOU. Worship is for your benefit. Worship brings you into new knowledge and emotional awareness. Worship places you in right standing with the Creator, which leads to spending eternity with Him. Heaven, in a strange way, is God showing His appreciation for your worship, which He doesn't really have to do because you're supposed to worship Him anyway.

In fact, true fairness would be for us to be forced to worship God for thousands of years straight and then send us to hell anyway - cause we've already earned it by being born human.

Fortunately, God is also merciful and creative enough to think of a way to redeem that He feels is fair. He let His Son, the only perfect human, sacrifice Himself for us. He didn't have to. But He did.

The only piece left in the puzzle for those who believe this, is why unbelievers hate a God like that so much. That is a puzzle :confused:

I cant worship that which i do not know exists. Thats a little hard to do. Is it our fault for being born human? I had no control over being born, but God certainly did. So it must be Gods fault im born human. Since Im human I deserve hell? I see no loving God there. Another confusing thing: his son is a sacrifice. Why is he a scarifice? Why couldnt God not wave his finger in the air, then say, ok its all better now?

I dont think God exists. If I did i probably would hate him because he is not loving. He created the tree that caused all the trouble, he also created the punishment. He created hell. A place of pain and suffering for all eternity. Does that sound loving? You may say he has given us a way out, but he has not even tried to make sure that his creation knows he even exists. Also, why do i even need a way out? If humans can not keep themselves from sinning, whos fault is that? Is it mine for being created this way? Perhaps the blame is on the creator.

The foundations of the world are an impenetrable, locked black box. At some point in the past, the person who constructed the box left a note, saying what was inside the box.it is a litlle arrogant, don't you think, to assume this world was made specifically for us. it's like a puddle saying "ooo look at this depression in the ground - it's exactly the same size and shape as me - it must have been created for me."
assuming your 'note' refers to the bible, god did not write the bible, men did; it is therefore no more or less reliable than the lord of the rings for telling us what was going on.
THEN, some people who didn't like the people who still read the note, decided that the note must not be true. And they began to dislike the man who made the box. These people were great in numbers. So, they came up with a plan..
not an eighth a number of the 'note readers'
they decided they would study the outside of the box as much as they could. When they finished studying the box, to the best of their abilities (which pale in comparison to the maker of the box), they arbitrarily proclaimed what was inside the box.
But indeed, it was not so. The people with the note attempted to politely point this out the the majority of boxmaker-haters. .
by burning them?? strange definition of 'politely'
So the haters took their case to court. In this court, since the maker-haters were already in the majority in society, it was quickly decided that this new idea must be given credence as an alternative to the old note.
hate is rather strong, we merely disagree and we are by no means the majority.
The population of the maker-haters grew exponentially, and many of their descendants became teachers of the sciences. Naturally, there descendants were brainwashed by the generation before, and predisposed to teach the arbitrary theory of what was inside the box.
A whole generation was taught that the arbitrary assumption that the maker-haters had made was truth. Gradually it became less and less acceptable to read from the note. so what are the evolutionary skeletons? tests? there to look pretty?
Being in the majority does not make you right. Simply because our education systems have been perverted and enable to brainwash our chidren that evolution is true, does.not.make.it.so. we are not in the majority, nor do we claim to know everything, there are some inescapable facts which we cannot ignore.

winter alliance has made a valid point. the point is that most christian teachings say that we are nothing. they want you to beleive that you are nothing and that the only way to be something is to follow their "note". this is an age old question, do you serve a purpose, or purposivly serve. i serve a purpose, to myself and those i care for. i dont need a false idol to live my life. my choice is my choice.
just read a history book and you will see almost every ancient peoples had their own gods and beliefs. so why did christianity get so big? well if you've ever read a history book you would know that christianity was really a cult in the roman empire. the romans persecuted them until they grew in numbers and the romans backed off. then the emperor named constantine had a hallucination and thought he saw a cross in the sky. he made worship of the old gods illegal and that left only one religion, christianity. the new religion spread like wildfire until the whole empire was christian. this happened around the same time as the fall of the western roman empire. so with no central authority around europe, and barbarians rampaging, the people turned to what they believed was salvation. the pope. now this will probaily fall on deaf ears, most christians like to make up their own facts, but i hope this shows that atheists arent just bitter people who hate god, rather we use logic and reasoning to live our lives, not guess' like " Jesus' body wasnt in the tomb. The only explanation is he has risen from the dead." come on people, if there was god im sure he would be very dissapointed seeing the ignorance his people are capiable of.

Wow I'm surprise. The people that picked No actually outnumber the people that picked Yes.

"Broad is the way that leads to destruction, but narrow is the path that leads to life; few are those who find it."

I think that people are afraid to admit that there is a God because then they would have to answer to Him. Weather or not they do realize it, "every knee will bow and every mouth confess" -weather it be now, or later.

Evolution.... sometimes it amazes me what people will believe to say there is no God. Evolution has been proven wrong. If evolution is wrong, then that means the Bible is true. So we go through all possible reasonings to say that evolution is true, even if it's not logical. ...which leads us astray.

I think that people are afraid to admit that there is a God because then they would have to answer to Him.

I think that people are afraid of what happens after death, so they need to believe in a God to make them feel better.

Evolution has been proven wrong.

*cough*haha*cough*

assuming your 'note' refers to the bible, god did not write the bible, men did;

God dictated the Bible to us... Men did not write is. It is God-inspired. And IF men wrote it, surely it would contradict itself, and have errors in it! The Bible has been studied for YEARS, even by scholars- it is not just some made-up fairy tail.

Evolution has been proven wrong.
I'd like to see this proof. I've heard hundreds of claims, but no evidence.
If evolution is wrong, then that means the Bible is true.
Wow, that's a massive leap of illogic. Why not the Hindu creation myth, or the Norse? Why the Bible?
You are trying to force a binary choice where the true situation is a multidimensional analog continuum.

there is no proof that there is or isn't a god... the choice is yours... just don't froce your opinion onto others

God dictated the Bible to us... Men did not write is. It is God-inspired. And IF men wrote it, surely it would contradict itself, and have errors in it! The Bible has been studied for YEARS, even by scholars- it is not just some made-up fairy tail.

Stop talking, now. You give the rest of us Christians a bad name. I have my problems with evolution as well, but all of these guys seems to dissmiss them, so I've stopped trying. You won't convince them of anything, so, stop trying.

Bleh, my last post sucked, heres a revision.

The events explained in the Bible can be told as history but not literal truth until they are proven, just as scientific theories cannot be converted to scientific law until they are proven. What I am trying to say is that, the people who wrote the Bible were telling a story, a historical account, but if this is so, then how come the belief in "God" was diluted over the years snce Adam and Eve. If something of that significance occured, obviously people could not keep written records back then, so it was oral tradition.

The problem with Oral Tradition is that it can be altered by the speaker, and thus, history can be altered. The fact that so many Polytheistic Religions existed before the creation of Judaism and Christianity is at least some evidence that what is told in the Bible is literal history, that because no written records were kept, story tellers had to tell the "creation" through word of mouth which could have been altered by some corrupt bastard trying to be funny in the long run.

Note: To Chech...whatever stan....I am not corrupt because I am atheist, I have read the Bible and it is a perfectly good account of how we came to be, and is a perfect account of all the history us humans share. But it is not the only account, and it is not the only history.

I don't understand how you could say there is no God.

Christian or not, you can never deny that there isn't some kind of 'God' out there. Even the most basic and isolated civilizations (that have never seen of or heard of God before, nor have they seen or been influence by any other people then those few they know in their little villages) believe in God, but just don't know him by the same name.

Wow. Some people are just plain idiots.

Stop talking, now. You give the rest of us Christians a bad name. I have my problems with evolution as well, but all of these guys seems to dissmiss them, so I've stopped trying. You won't convince them of anything, so, stop trying.

What he is saying is true, so doesn't he have a right to make his stand for Christianity?

I don't understand how you could say there is no God.

Christian or not, you can never deny that there isn't some kind of 'God' out there. Even the most basic and isolated civilizations (that have never seen of or heard of God before, nor have they seen or been influence by any other people then those few they know in their little villages) believe in God, but just don't know him by the same name.

Wow. Some people are just plain idiots.

In your viewpoint, yes there is a God

In mine, there is none, nopes nothing out there but aliens(C'mon people, we're just an insignificant spec in a galaxy thats insignificant to the universe, its extremely ignorant to believe we're the only life in millions of galaxies)

But anyway back to the argument, So I'm an idiot because I'm atheist eh? You know, you really shouldn't base knowledge and wisdom on a person's religious background.

Do you call Hindus and Buddhists idiots because they do not share your God?

Are Evolution and Creation Compatible?

More and more Christians are adopting evolution as a compatible doctrine with the creation story. So is evolution compatible with the Bible? Could God have used evolution to complete creation? No. Evolution is 100% incompatible with the Bible. There are four reasons that evolution could not be in God's plan of creation.

One. Death came by sin. Sin did not enter into the world until after Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Evolution requires death in order to arrive to Adam. Therefore, for a Christian who believes in evolution (even theistic evolution, the 'GAP theory' or progressive evolution) by default, must believe the Bible to be false. Not only do you have to discredit the first 11 chapters of Genesis, but also the New Testament. The foundation of the New Testament is that sin entered through death and Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin (Romans 5:12). The Bible says,
16 ...For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation
17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned ... much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ

You cannot believe Geneses or these passages and believe in evolution. If evolution exists, then the Bible is false. Death did not come by sin but existed millions or billions of years before man arrived. Salvation through Christ is built on the need of salvation born in Genesis. Romans builds the Christian faith on this principles. If this is wrong, so is the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no middle ground provided by scripture.

Two. The facts don't fit. Every cell, every organ, every organism, every biological function points to detailed design. Every part living processes is so interdependent that anything outside of careful, purposeful design becomes absurd. Sagan once said that each cell contains enough data to fill up one million volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Much research has proven that if one function of the cell is removed, the interdependent processes will cease to function and the cell will die. Logic drives us to conclude that if one million volumes of data must be present to sustain life, then everything had to be present at the formation of the cell and had to be added at the exact same instant. There are not numeric odds big enough to sustain these 'by chance' phenomena. Design must be concluded.

Three. Evolution was born out of atheism. The entire purpose of the evolutionary theory was to answer the question of origins without acknowledging a creator. Look at the pioneers of evolution. All of them were atheists. The foundation of evolution was to support atheism. If the foundation is faulty, nothing else matters. You cannot realistically separate evolution from atheism. Evolution teaches people that they are products of chance. They were not designed with a purpose and there is no creator in which we are accountable to. The leading modern preacher of evolution is Richard Dawkins. He said that he believes that atheism is the only logical deduction from evolution.

Four. Anything that takes focus and glory from God is not of God. One common theme throughout the Bible is the importance of giving glory to God. Constantly we are commanded to glorify God because God is worthy. Indeed God is worthy. God created us and the world we live in with amazing detail and design. We will not know until heaven the depth of God creation. In fact, I believe we will have all eternity to continue exploring God's amazing creation. To say that God would use by-chance evolution for creation means that we believe that God is willing to hide behind the scenes allowing creation get the glory of continuing what He started. This is not consistent with scripture. The glory belongs to God and God alone. God created this world and man for His pleasure and His glory. Because evolution draws the world's focus away from God, we know it is not of God.

In conclusion, I believe it is clear that these two world views are incompatible. Trying to unionize creation and evolution is a trend that is growing in the church. Many people try to believe both creation and evolution. This idea began to become popular when the 'Gap Theory' was popularized. If you are not familiar with the Gap theory, it is a theory that there is unwritten history lies between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Some 'gappers' believe a gap lies between some of the creation stages. The reality is that there is absolutely no scriptural basis at all for any gap. Christians began to turn to alternative creation doctrines when evolutionary 'sciences' became popular. Believing that the facts were against creation, people began to search for ways to marry evolution and creation. This was especially true when the so-called missing links began to be announced. Every missing link has since been disproven. Most curriculums continue to teach the links as fact either out of ignorance or out of denial. One thing I have discovered through many conversations with evolutionist and atheist is that they are ignorant of evolution science. What evolution scientists and researchers have acknowledged as misinformation or theories that have been proven false, the average person still believes as though it were gospel.

Christians as a whole, do a terrible job of defending creation. The evidence presented by the vast majority of Christians usually contains faith answers. I see arguments in response to atheists, "You just have to have faith", or "It is not our place to question, only to believe". How far we have slipped in the Christian world. Christian scientists founded almost every major science. Now the argument is that Christians can't reason but only think in terms of faith. God has provided us with logic, reason and inquisitive minds. It is not a sin to use these tools. Viewing all the evidence drives you back to creation. Christians I have met are often afraid of the evidence because of the fear that the Bible will be proven wrong. Atheists are afraid of the evidence because it undermines their self-lordship doctrines. Atheists toss out any information that does not support evolution or they over simplify it to make it sound like it fits the evolution model.

Evolutionists accuse Christians of not knowing the facts. Many times this is true. I have concluded that both sides are guilty of ignorance regarding the facts. The difference is that atheists/evolutionists do a much better job of intimidation than Christians do. Atheists are very quick to call themselves intellectual and have their cannons loaded with a handful of facts. When you begin to dig in, you find that atheists are completely clueless as well. Most do not know why they believe, they only repeat what they hear or they consult infidel.org or some of the other atheist information centers. The problem with this information is the simplistic reasoning. Evolution always begins at a complex starting point and goes from there. If you can stop the argument from going forward and target questions back to 'how did you get at this starting point?' we find the argument crumbles very quickly. When you dig into the grass roots of creation, they have no explanations. Every atheist will immediately jump to intimidation and name calling when questioned on the logical level. This is their only defense because evolution does not add up.

Evolution springs from a lack of knowledge. It can only survive with missing pieces. The more information included in the discussion, the more leaks the evolutionary argument springs. Evolution's greatest weapon is ignorance of Christians. Most people (Christians included) accept evolution at face value. When we toss out the argument of simplicity and really begin to look at how this design could happen by chance, there is absolutely no logic that points to evolution.

Eddie Snipes
Exchanged Life Outreach
http://www.exchangedlife.com


Evolution is entirely impossible, not to mention (as stated above) that is was made for a completely unlikely possibility for Atheist creation.

Do you call Hindus and Buddhists idiots because they do not share your God?

No, they believe in a type of God, but don't see him the same way. Besides, most people of the Hindu and Buddhist religions have never even HEARD of the Christian God.

Evolution is entirely impossible, not to mention (as stated above) that is was made for a completely unlikely possibility for Atheist creation.

Just from the way your writing I can tell you're one of those people who stagnates progress and discovery because it is against 14th century European Fundamentalism.

I believe that anything could be possible, which also means that I believe in aliens and stuff like that. I don't practice any certain faith, except I have faith in Fate.

I believe that anything could be possible, which also means that I believe in aliens and stuff like that. I don't practice any certain faith, except I have faith in Fate.

I don't have much faith in anything besides the advancing knowledge of the human race.

I don't understand how you could say there is no God.

Christian or not, you can never deny that there isn't some kind of 'God' out there. Even the most basic and isolated civilizations (that have never seen of or heard of God before, nor have they seen or been influence by any other people then those few they know in their little villages) believe in God, but just don't know him by the same name.

Wow. Some people are just plain idiots.

I dont believe in God. Im not an idiot. I can deny the existance of God. I have no reason to believe in a God.

You should rephrase the question. It should read "Do you believe there is a God?". Believing in God means that you believe he is capable :) . I know there is a God. I believe there is a Santa Claus...See the difference? ;) Big difference between believing and knowing :D

I dont believe in God. Im not an idiot. I can deny the existance of God. I have no reason to believe in a God.

Thats exactly what I've been trying to say to this guy!

If Isaac Newton, or Galileo Galili(sorry don't know how to spell his name), or Albert Einstein were Atheist, would you lable them idiots also?

In your viewpoint, yes there is a God

In mine, there is none, nopes nothing out there but aliens(C'mon people, we're just an insignificant spec in a galaxy thats insignificant to the universe, its extremely ignorant to believe we're the only life in millions of galaxies)

But anyway back to the argument, So I'm an idiot because I'm atheist eh? You know, you really shouldn't base knowledge and wisdom on a person's religious background.

Do you call Hindus and Buddhists idiots because they do not share your God?

I am so sorry, I'm being suckered in when I got homework... oh well.

I say again, what you believe does not make a difference to the TRUTH. If I were to say that the great Goobleschnuffer was the one true god and created the universe, and I had a super-duper argument to support it, that still wouldn't make it true, would it?
You can have all the arguments you like that say "God is wrong," but that has very little to do with the actual truth. I am not going to ask you to believe that Jesus is true because I have a convincing argument,
I am asking you to believe in Him because he is the truth.

What makes mine special? Its reality. No other religion can even claim the title of 'relationship,' let alone proclaim that it is true. Nor can you say rightfully that none of them are true. And I am sure that there is something inside you that tells you that you are wrong. However, the devil quite possibly has you so well in hand that you are incapable of listening to, or maybe even hearing, that lone voice.

You ask for proof? I can give you none. I can adequately argue my side, but that is not why you should believe it. That is not faith, faith is believing in what we can not prove. However, that doesn't mean that your faith is wrong, it means that you have faith for the right reasons.

However, you are also incapable of giving proof of your own side. You can offer a good enough argument, as can I, but you, as I, cannot prove it.

Of course I believe, and KNOW that God exists. I read the Bible as fact, not a story book. I've seen many an unexplainable act happen, and the only way you CAN explain it is by God. I'm a devout Lutheran, and there's no way you can change my thinking, so don't try.

Thats exactly what I've been trying to say to this guy!

If Isaac Newton, or Galileo Galili(sorry don't know how to spell his name), or Albert Einstein were Atheist, would you lable them idiots also?

Of course not. They are regardless the most intelligent people we have ever seen. However, they are ignorant when they have the atheist view. Say all those awesomely intelligent scientists, who are so certain of their being right, completely ignore the truth, because it conflicts with their books.

However, we revere the great intellects that you mention as not only great intellets, but also as very wise people. The fact that people that wise were NOT atheists should tell you something.

However, you are also incapable of giving proof of your own side. You can offer a good enough argument, as can I, but you, as I, cannot prove it.

Another point of mine, how can we prove something that was not recorded immediately and could have happened millions of years ago, billions, who knows. The point is I cannot prove evolution is right and that there is no God, but you cannot prove that creationism is right and there is a God. The arguement is currently at a stalemate, and for the next how many years, decades, centuries? It will continue to be a stalemate.

I hate arguing with people I know will never listen.

Know that God loves us all, and that He is always here for you. No matter how far you try to seperate yourself from him, He is always there for you. He is always waiting at the door to your heart, knocking at the door and hoping that you would let him in. You can cover your ears, but that won't stop the fact that he is there waiting for you.

Is it wrong to kill someone? Is it wrong to steal? Is it wrong to adulterate?

Yes, of course it is.

Who made these laws? Who was the foundation for creating these morals of no killing? No stealing? No adultery? (and others, of course)

God did.

We all owe everything to God, because he created us, and he loves us so greatly. He allowed us to let our sins be forgiven, yet we were unworthy of recieving his grace.

The Bible was written by God. God is perfect, he cannot make any errors, contradictions - nothing. Everything in the Bible is exactly as it was meant to be, and nothing should be added or removed.

Remember this: Jesus is the only way to Salvation.

Look to God, ask him to help your in your troubles.

"...for nothing is impossible with God." Luke 1:37

Of course I believe, and KNOW that God exists. I read the Bible as fact, not a story book. I've seen many an unexplainable act happen, and the only way you CAN explain it is by God. I'm a devout Lutheran, and there's no way you can change my thinking, so don't try.
Please, do not state your opinions so late into the thread unless you are willing to offer a debate to support them, or if you are willing to sway people to your own side.

my honest answer...
is i find my own definition of God, and i believe in it.
that definition doesn't work for everyone, and it's not supposed to.
so "God" is really what I make of it.
meh, i don't feel like many words right now.

Of course I believe, and KNOW that God exists. I read the Bible as fact, not a story book. I've seen many an unexplainable act happen, and the only way you CAN explain it is by God. I'm a devout Lutheran, and there's no way you can change my thinking, so don't try.

Ah but I'm not trying to sway your opinion, I never will, thats your choice(or the government's) I'm just here because, like others here, I'm defending my opinions, not enforcing them.

Another point of mine, how can we prove something that was not recorded immediately and could have happened millions of years ago, billions, who knows. The point is I cannot prove evolution is right and that there is no God, but you cannot prove that creationism is right and there is a God. The arguement is currently at a stalemate, and for the next how many years, decades, centuries? It will continue to be a stalemate.

And that is where the grey areas of thought come into play, my friend. We can argue with our intelligence all we want, but when you enter the moral thoughts, the deep emotional opinions, that is where Satan begins to lose ground, that is where you understand that Christianity can be true. That, finally, is where you see the error in your ways. You must get into that kind of mindset, where you are open to every opinion, at all costs. I have done so and it resulted in my current political, idealogicall, mental, and religious standpoint.

I am so sorry, I'm being suckered in when I got homework... oh well.

I say again, what you believe does not make a difference to the TRUTH. If I were to say that the great Goobleschnuffer was the one true god and created the universe, and I had a super-duper argument to support it, that still wouldn't make it true, would it?
You can have all the arguments you like that say "God is wrong," but that has very little to do with the actual truth. I am not going to ask you to believe that Jesus is true because I have a convincing argument,
I am asking you to believe in Him because he is the truth.

What makes mine special? Its reality. No other religion can even claim the title of 'relationship,' let alone proclaim that it is true. Nor can you say rightfully that none of them are true. And I am sure that there is something inside you that tells you that you are wrong. However, the devil quite possibly has you so well in hand that you are incapable of listening to, or maybe even hearing, that lone voice.

You ask for proof? I can give you none. I can adequately argue my side, but that is not why you should believe it. That is not faith, faith is believing in what we can not prove. However, that doesn't mean that your faith is wrong, it means that you have faith for the right reasons.

However, you are also incapable of giving proof of your own side. You can offer a good enough argument, as can I, but you, as I, cannot prove it.

eh, :rolleyes: Your religion is just another belief. You say its true but you dont know. How do you know the real TRUTH is that there is no God? I can probably guess your answer: "its faith." Someone gives me a book, says its Gods word and I read it. The whole book hangs on the "faith" idea. I cannot simply believe in a book that says "This is God talking! Trust me! I cant prove it, but trust me!"

Please, do not state your opinions so late into the thread unless you are willing to offer a debate to support them, or if you are willing to sway people to your own side.

Here's your contradiction, and here I am taking it and shoving it back up your @$$. I will state my opinion whenever I damn well please because I CAN! You've of no right to restrict that, so don't try.

Ah but I'm not trying to sway your opinion, I never will, thats your choice(or the government's) I'm just here because, like others here, I'm defending my opinions, not enforcing them.

It wasn't really a contradiction to anyone, I was just saying for the record.

I think we should reverse that a little bit. See, evolutionary scientists are really good at writing fiction. That's all.

The foundations of the world are an impenetrable, locked black box. At some point in the past, the person who constructed the box left a note, saying what was inside the box.

But society stopped caring about the man who made the black box, and many thousands of years later, the black box continues to function, and everyone just takes it for granted.

THEN, some people who didn't like the people who still read the note, decided that the note must not be true. And they began to dislike the man who made the box. These people were great in numbers. So, they came up with a plan.

they decided they would study the outside of the box as much as they could. When they finished studying the box, to the best of their abilities (which pale in comparison to the maker of the box), they arbitrarily proclaimed what was inside the box.

But indeed, it was not so. The people with the note attempted to politely point this out the the majority of boxmaker-haters.

So the haters took their case to court. In this court, since the maker-haters were already in the majority in society, it was quickly decided that this new idea must be given credence as an alternative to the old note.

The population of the maker-haters grew exponentially, and many of their descendants became teachers of the sciences. Naturally, there descendants were brainwashed by the generation before, and predisposed to teach the arbitrary theory of what was inside the box.

A whole generation was taught that the arbitrary assumption that the maker-haters had made was truth. Gradually it became less and less acceptable to read from the note.

Which leads us to the present day.

Being in the majority does not make you right. Simply because our education systems have been perverted and enable to brainwash our chidren that evolution is true, does.not.make.it.so.

I think that could be rewritten a little bit.

First of all, the creation of the world is not a "black box" with no effects on the present. Portraying it as a "black box" gives the impression that it doesn't affect anything outside of it - which is quite untrue, the past affects the present, we can observe the effects. A "black box" definition gives the incorrect that what's inside doesn't affect what's outside.

But hey, I'll go with the analogy, why not.

So, we have this black box. It's a BIG box. There are people living around it - some to the north, some to the south, some on top of it, etc.

Some person claims to KNOW where the box came from, and people believe him because he's a very good and well-respected person. He leaves a note saying how the box came about - it was made by a Maker, who told him personally.

Unbeknowest to him, someone else leaves a different note on the other side of the box, yet another person leaves another note on the top. All claim to KNOW where the box came from.

Time passes. As the people on the North side of the box encounter the people on the West, they realize that the Westies have their own note. The Northies know that this is wrong, so they beat up the Westies and rip their note up. The southies beat up the easties. A rebel faction among the southies decides that the person who made the original note was wrong, and rewrites it. His supporters take over the south side of the box, and proclaim that the people that are now on the east are idiots.

The northies, having beat up the westies, live long and prosper. However, they rest on their laurels too much, and the New Southies catch them off-guard and beat them all up, thus forcing both the North and West sides of the box to believe in the modified version of the south note.

Time passes. Everyone believes in their notes, occasionally bickering.

Some people realize that the notes, all of them, leave out some details that would be interesting if we knew it. They examine the outside of the box - they knock on different parts of it and hear the sound, they poke sticks into it, they jump up and down and measure its elasticity, they find out lots of interesting things about it. They still agree that the note is true though - most of the things that they find out about the box don't really contradict the notes (any of them; the people on the south and east sides of the box also listen to the measurements made by the northies, and find the conclusions useful).

However, eventually, some measurements taken about the box seem to contradict the note. Measurement-takers show how their new way of thinking about the box allows us to understand more about the shape of the outside of the box, the nuanced cures that nobody had seen before but make no sense if the note is true.

This leads some people to the conclusion that the notes are probably wrong - that whoever wrote the note was miscopying what the divine being told them. Some of them think that this means that the note was not divinely inspired at all and is all wrong; some think that it just means that the notes should be read differently.


And there are some that claim that their particular note is absolutely right despite the fact that the measurements we take lead us to a different conclusion. They say that the thing who, according to their note, made the box, could have just as easily made the surface of the box give measurements that SEEM to indicate one thing about the insides but really are just a trick.

How's that for a better analogy? ;)

eh, :rolleyes: Your religion is just another belief. You say its true but you dont know. How do you know the real TRUTH is that there is no God? I can probably guess your answer: "its faith." Someone gives me a book, says its Gods word and I read it. The whole book hangs on the "faith" idea. I cannot simply believe in a book that says "This is God talking! Trust me! I cant prove it, but trust me!"

Your own mind is the proof. It is important that you leave the "solid facts," the arguments behind, just for a little while, and begin to think openly. Then you will se what is true. If your mind is completely absent of not only what I say, but what everyone and everything that you believed says, then you will see what is true.

After all, the mind is God's creation, and it works how He designed it. Because He designed it, then every nook and cranny whispers of His work. And, if it doesn't for you or me, or anyone else, then I am 100% wrong.

[QUOTE=Secluded Islands]eh, :rolleyes: Your religion is just another belief. You say its true but you dont know. How do you know the real TRUTH is that there is no God? I can probably guess your answer: "its faith."QUOTE]

It is faith, you believe what you believe because you choose to believe it, if you think the Bible is the word of God by all means read it and take it in as the word of God, but if you just think its another good book that needs to be kept in the household then keep it in, and read it.

I believe there is a god, but he is tolerant and loving, like a parent, not an angry or vengeful god who condemns all those who work on the sabbath and are homosexual (both abominations in the bible which was compiled over a milennia after christ so there is bound to be some selective editing) and allows one to sell their children into slavery (which is permitted in the bible).

Your own mind is the proof. It is important that you leave the "solid facts," the arguments behind, just for a little while, and begin to think openly. Then you will se what is true. If your mind is completely absent of not only what I say, but what everyone and everything that you believed says, then you will see what is true.

After all, the mind is God's creation, and it works how He designed it. Because He designed it, then every nook and cranny whispers of His work. And, if it doesn't for you or me, or anyone else, then I am 100% wrong.

I lived on the faith card long enough. I was a christian. I got fed up with all the bologna. I had problems with the whole idea of God and what he is supposed to be about. I see no such thing as a loving God. The world does not whisper his work. It whispers nothing. If God wants to actually try, he can start whispering with his own lips.

People may believe as they wish, though I do find it a little silly to openly and deliberately not believe in the Divine. I find, however, that Atheists are Agnostics with too much pride.

They always smack to me of teenagers being rebellious. They don't only not believe in the Divine, but they openly deny the Divine with all the passion of an Evangelical Baptist.

Why would you bother putting so much effort into that which you do not believe? Simple: You're afraid. People hate what they fear.

There is no reason to be afraid. You will not be stripped of your humanity nor your dignity for believing in the Divine. You do not have to give up the belief in evolution or women's rights; you do not have to give up your belief in science and physics; you do not have to give up your belief in the equality of all mankind. If you do, then you're picking the wrong religion.

If I am labelled a fool for praising Allah with every fiber of my being, then such a fool may I be and I gladly accept the title. If by the study of physics, astronomy, and mathematics I come closer to Allah and the Divine, then all the more blessed am I.

Then again, I am the old fool that there's no fool like.

I believe there is a god, but he is tolerant and loving, like a parent, not an angry or vengeful god who condemns all those who work on the sabbath and are homosexual (both abominations in the bible which was compiled over a milennia after christ so there is bound to be some selective editing) and allows one to sell their children into slavery (which is permitted in the bible).

God IS loving, forgiving, kind, and caring. However, another of His many, infinate traits is wrath, power, anger.
Although He is not quick to become angry, His anger is greater and less desirable than anything you have ever seen.
Onto the loving train again, God's love is evident in our very lives, the fact that nobody on earth is, right now, struck down by holy lightning, perfectly exemplifies forgiveness.
However, the greatest testament to His love is the Good News. The fact that a living, thinking being would sacrafice his own very closely loved son in order to save tiny, unnessecary, little swarming pieces of vermin is an unbelievable show of how great God's love is.
If you ignore every other part of the Bible, please do not EVER blow this piece of truth off, your very eternity depends upon it.

As was I. I was taught to be Christian, brought up to be Christian, went to a Christian school for God's sakes!

Then I moved and read an internet article on Origins of Species and other Agnostic books, I followed fact and not faith. Basically how can I be labelled an idiot for adopting a theory and faith just as adequate as the Bible and Christianity. Both are solid theories, they can be backed up by history, fact, and faith.

Before I moved I was packed with the teachings of the Christian Church, what they said was law, and my thoughts were strict. Once I moved it loosened a bit and I was able to think freely, and accept other ideologies than those the Christian Church wants me to think.

I respect Christianity, I don't argue that its a bad religion or that its followers are all religious nuts wanting to destroy the world for God. What I argue is what I went through before I moved and how the Church limits freedom of thought unless you are introduced to the world outside of all thats good and nice.

Heaven seems too good to be true...maybe it is, but then again, maybe it isn't.

I lived on the faith card long enough. I was a christian. I got fed up with all the bologna. I had problems with the whole idea of God and what he is supposed to be about. I see no such thing as a loving God. The world does not whisper his work. It whispers nothing. If God wants to actually try, he can start whispering with his own lips.

The beauty of the skies, a portal into an awesomely huge and beautiful universe, is unbelievable.
The very ground you walk upon right now is a testament to mankind's intelligence. To come up with soemthing so commonplace as carpeting or cement, but so complex, signifies an intelligence capacity that nothing but an all-powerful Creator could have designed.
Even at levels we cannot see, the universe is beautifully perfect. A mere four nucleotides, using only four possible bases, are ultimately responsible for the creation of millions of individual species.
Atoms are glued unmovably to other atoms, and their electrons are moving trillions of times in their individual orbits. The atoms themselves would be impossible to exist in our current dimensions, the only things we know, and thus would need to extend into another seven dimensions. How could any four-dimensional accident make an unbelievable eleven, and possibly more?

As was I. I was taught to be Christian, brought up to be Christian, went to a Christian school for God's sakes!

Then I moved and read an internet article on Origins of Species and other Agnostic books, I followed fact and not faith. Basically how can I be labelled an idiot for adopting a theory and faith just as adequate as the Bible and Christianity. Both are solid theories, they can be backed up by history, fact, and faith.

Before I moved I was packed with the teachings of the Christian Church, what they said was law, and my thoughts were strict. Once I moved it loosened a bit and I was able to think freely, and accept other ideologies than those the Christian Church wants me to think.

I respect Christianity, I don't argue that its a bad religion or that its followers are all religious nuts wanting to destroy the world for God. What I argue is what I went through before I moved and how the Church limits freedom of thought unless you are introduced to the world outside of all thats good and nice.

Heaven seems too good to be true...maybe it is, but then again, maybe it isn't.

I've read Origin of Species, and you would not believe how little it says about how mankind came about. Actually, all it says is that animals can adapt to changing envrionments. Nothing wrong with that, right?

If you ignore every other part of the Bible, please do not EVER blow this piece of truth off, your very eternity depends upon it.

A nice thought, but that's where we part ways. My eternity depends solely upon Allah - who has no partner and no son and none is worthy of worship except Allah - as was Abraham's (pbuh) eternity and the prophets of the Hebrews, who knew nothing of partners or trinities, mysteries or sons, but only of Allah.

Allah proves love for me by my very existence, my children, and through the Messengers, not by any deed performed for my benefit.

Ooh yes, 24's on!!!
Time to watch.

There is no god, only the Goddess Eris. All hail Discodia!

There is no god, only the Goddess Eris. All hail Discodia!
What a great first post to have on this forum, or any... :rolleyes:. Be careful not to slip up the staircase on your way out, as you undoubtedly slipped on your way down.

Ah yes, and as a Greek Orthodox Christian, I do believe in God.

I partially agree. People don't need to "push" their beliefs on the country/world, but why not allow people to talk about them freely? For example, if I asked you what you believe and vice versa, why not engage in a conversation about it? Beliefs of all kinds come up in conversation, why exclude religion? Also, why if someone doesn't know about a particular belief and they are interested in sharing in it...why cannot information be passed along?

Again, the free and open exchange of information is not what I'm having a problem with - it's all the rest of it, as I explained earlier.


Again, why not? They encompass several different religious traditions...

No, it's mainly just the Judeo-Christian traditions. Take a closer look at the first 4 commandments, for example. I think you'd have to agree that they have nothing to do with, say, Pagan traditions, for example. They are strictly religious in the Judeo-Christian sense. I'll have as many Gods and/or Goddesses as I please, thank you very much. If I wish to take the Judeo-Christian God's name in vain, then so what? If I want a day of rest, I'll choose my own and violate it whenever the need arises - it's no one's business but my own. If I wish to make graven images and even worship them, well, it seems a bit silly - but still, it's entirely my own business and no one else's - and most certainly not the government's! So why should they post these religious commandments in government buildings as if they had the weight of the law behind them? They do not!


Creation IS NOT taught in schools. But even if it was, evolution and other "proper scientific theories" are just that, theory.

Just a theory??? :confused: Apparently you need to educate yourself on the scientific definition of the word "theory" (due, in part, to having attended a Christian school, perhaps?). The term carries a lot more weight than you seem to be aware of.

Just a theory??? :confused: Apparently you need to educate yourself on the scientific definition of the word "theory" (due, in part, to having attended a Christian school, perhaps?). The term carries a lot more weight than you seem to be aware of.
You're right, a theory is the HIGHEST acclaim that any scientific idea can acclaim, well at least in Physics since that's the realm I've worked with the most. Anyway, this is probably more damning to your case than anything, since it proves there is no real "Scientific Fact", but merely a bunch of Scientific Probabilities and Scientific Most Likelys. Scientists are as sure about the things that they believe as most devout Christians :rolleyes:. In fact, other scientists enjoy trying to disprove the "theories" of their peers. Seems that those that like science and "it's facts" carry this very same attribute.. They try to disprove the existence of God when that is fairly impossible. Proving the existence of God to a non-believer is probably much easier to do.

You're right, a theory is the HIGHEST acclaim that any scientific idea can acclaim, well at least in Physics since that's the realm I've worked with the most. Anyway, this is probably more damning to your case than anything, since it proves there is no real "Scientific Fact", but merely a bunch of Scientific Probabilities and Scientific Most Likelys. Scientists are as sure about the things that they believe as most devout Christians :rolleyes:. In fact, other scientists enjoy trying to disprove the "theories" of their peers. Seems that those that like science and "it's facts" carry this very same attribute.. They try to disprove the existence of God when that is fairly impossible. Proving the existence of God to a non-believer is probably much easier to do.
Scientist are sure about their theories. It's not about proof, it's about what works.

Yes. I believe in God.

I also belive. its not one of those things wheere you can conivnce others easily. I know of a quotation, from somewhere which sums the whole thing up nicely.
"You can't know you can only believe"

I think the whole thing works but there are some people out there, who despite all my reasoning won't listen.

I also belive. its not one of those things wheere you can conivnce others easily. I know of a quotation, from somewhere which sums the whole thing up nicely.
"You can't know you can only believe"

I think the whole thing works but there are some people out there, who despite all my reasoning won't listen.

Are you a practising religious person? What religion do you belong to?

Bu surely if God DID exist, there'd be some evidence of it? Unless God created the universe then pissed off, which I find rather unlikely...
But if God did create the universe, then the universe is evidence of it (i.e. the existence of the evidence relies on first accepting the premise.)

But if God did create the universe, then the universe is evidence of it (i.e. the existence of the evidence relies on first accepting the premise.)

and heres catch 22, with the existance of the universe, does it not also support the big bang theory, and that it is possible, we are all just the result of a scientific phenomonon?

and heres catch 22, with the existance of the universe, does it not also support the big bang theory, and that it is possible, we are all just the result of a scientific phenomonon?
If you change the premise, yes. ;)

We don't know if God exists, and no we really don't know if the big bang happened either. Though some people believe either or (or both at same time), its actually rather funny: Christianity says atheism is the bad seed, and atheists say Christianity and organized religion is problem.

Maybe the problem is we are too public with our religious beliefs? If you project your beliefs you eventually will offend someone... and they may start to believe your belief is "oppresive, annoying, etc...".

Anyways, that's how I see it. I see atheists as people who push their agenda as much as any religious group, and I see the religions saying the atheists are going to burn in hell, are infidels, are not one with nature blah blah...
Both parties? Guilty. Agnostics? Heh. Some are on the right track, most are on the pop culture atheism/agnostic boat (as opposed to the religion/cattle/cult boat).

Fuel onto the fire. Sorta like this thread. But I guess humanity likes controversy, especially over this subject. Scientists are SO sure about their stuff, they shun people who have new ideas (*cough*) that detract from their own... sound like a religion? You don't follow the set ways, they don't listen to you. You may believe you're different... you aren't.

Whatever, keep fighting the endless battle.
No ones right if everybodies wrong.

Scientists are SO sure about their stuff, they shun people who have new ideas (*cough*) that detract from their own... sound like a religion? You don't follow the set ways, they don't listen to you. You may believe you're different... you aren't.
actually, any true scientist would be unable to have that attitude. look at who is challenging scientific theory and entrenched ideas the most...it's SCIENTISTS doing that, and it always has been. every scientific theory that has been uprooted has been uprooted by other scientists. doctrine for its own sake is a philosophy that is totally incompatible with science.

now, there are people who say they support science who may behave toward it as though it were a religion. those people are not scientists, they are simply misguided.

actually, any true scientist would be unable to have that attitude. look at who is challenging scientific theory and entrenched ideas the most...it's SCIENTISTS doing that, and it always has been. every scientific theory that has been uprooted has been uprooted by other scientists. doctrine for its own sake is a philosophy that is totally incompatible with science.

now, there are people who say they support science who may behave toward it as though it were a religion. those people are not scientists, they are simply misguided.

Ha! Yes! You've said this before!
Now, your last comment, you must understand the difference between the worship of science that you suggest, and the worship of science that you see every day.
As I've explained this before, people worship things. They follow them, they place them above ALL else. For many it could be money, sex, a person or people they know, some sort of hobby, maybe. Although they do not willingly 'bow down before them,' they would actualy be willing to fight for such things, and lust after them, despite the fact that they are often material. As such, some scientists do this: placing their research, their facts, their knowledge above all else, even themselves. Although such worship, for that is what it is called, has produced great leaps in the field of scientific research, it is an ultimate downfall for those involved.
I have heard untold numbers of people who I have told this say "I don't worship anything," but let me tell you, you do. 100% certainly. You place it above all else. Such an object even has the potentiall to be yourself. I say it again, it is a hardwired instinct of all humans to worship God, just as it is hardwired into a mouse to run from a hawk. However, in the absence of God, that instinct to worship still instills a passion in the person, meaning that they find something, anything, to place above everything else.

But if God did create the universe, then the universe is evidence of it (i.e. the existence of the evidence relies on first accepting the premise.)
Hide me from the circular logic!!!

Religion promises an afterlife to all who follow its tenents. It is this core paradise that causes people to believe in them. Causes people to give money to churches, causes them to die for their beliefs. No one wants to die, no one wants to think death is absolute, and no one wants to believe that they will never see loved ones after the loved ones pass. I know I don't. Religion is a good thing for a large number of people, because it helps them get through the day in a world where nothing is perfect. It lets them have a goal to achieve, and it lets them believe they will amount to something.

After man moved from simply wishing to survive, and started thinking about the future, and setting down roots, making homes and villiages, the question has loomed, what will we become? Religion poses a simple solution to this, eternal life, or rebirth. No one truly dies, and there is great comfort in that. In order for one to acheive this, they have to live a good life, and follow the rules, and just generally be a good person (however, a good person is defined diiferently between person to person). Then, accepting there is a God, or higher power(s), they will ascend to heaven, become one with the earth, or be reborn, depending on how they perceive the world. This makes life worth living, because you will get the knowledge of how the universe works, why things happen..you'll get to experience more, and see those you love. You're not truly dead afterall, you're ascended.

In my experience, people who don't believe in god get depressed, because they look at the world, all these people, all this potential to do something that won't be forgotten, and they see that none of it matters. In the end, we're all dead. Forever. No afterlife, no rebirth, no great awakening. And truth be told, I'd rather believe that I'm going to be alive forever, with everyone I've ever loved, and I'll be happy after the pain of life is gone. I however, marked 'No' in the survey, because I believe life is what we make of it. We have our time here, and no matter what we do, in the end, it is all null and void. Depressing huh? Well, I don't use God to get me through the day, what I do to want to wake up in the morning, is I try to make someone happy, because that makes me happy, and when I get happy, little chemicals get released in my blood stream that make me relax, and feel good. And I like that, so I do it more. And that's how I get through the day. I do things because I want to, not because I want brownie points for getting into heaven. I help people because I like making people smile. I think this makes me a "good" person by societies means, but, if there is an afterlife, I'll probably be going to hell, or what not for not believing in the proper god. However, I like to think that if God is worth His/Her/Their salt, they'll see that I was a good person despite not believing in them, and that I held true to my beliefs.

Ha! Yes! You've said this before!
Now, your last comment, you must understand the difference between the worship of science that you suggest, and the worship of science that you see every day.
As I've explained this before, people worship things. They follow them, they place them above ALL else. For many it could be money, sex, a person or people they know, some sort of hobby, maybe. Although they do not willingly 'bow down before them,' they would actualy be willing to fight for such things, and lust after them, despite the fact that they are often material. As such, some scientists do this: placing their research, their facts, their knowledge above all else, even themselves. Although such worship, for that is what it is called, has produced great leaps in the field of scientific research, it is an ultimate downfall for those involved.
I have heard untold numbers of people who I have told this say "I don't worship anything," but let me tell you, you do. 100% certainly. You place it above all else. Such an object even has the potentiall to be yourself. I say it again, it is a hardwired instinct of all humans to worship God, just as it is hardwired into a mouse to run from a hawk. However, in the absence of God, that instinct to worship still instills a passion in the person, meaning that they find something, anything, to place above everything else.
riiiiiight. okay, feel free to continue on with your crackpot theory, and feel free to continue telling people what they believe, what they feel, and what they think. just don't be surprised when other people react the way i am about to:

tee hee. hehehe. hehehehe. guffaw. titter. lol. giggles. roffles. ho ho ho.

Just because you sugar coat it with the "I'm only saying this because I love you as a fellow child of god" sentiment, doesn't make this type of message less offensive. I hold my beliefs just as earnestly as you do and frankly I see very little difference in the catholic tactic of passive agressive threat of hell to be any less hateful than the tactics used by the evangelists. Yes, telling or implying that people are going to hell for all eternity does come off as hateful, not loving.

The bible may have lessons to offer anyone but I sure wish people would heed this one in particular:

"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." (Matthew 6:1-6 RSV)

As for me, I'm satisfied accepting responsibility for my own life.


There is no point trying to prove a point to someone who will not listen. All I can tell you is that you might have given up on God, but God will never give up on you, and he will always be there trying to help you no matter how many times you try to push him away from you.

There is no point trying to prove a point to someone who will not listen. All I can tell you is that you might have given up on God, but God will never give up on you, and he will always be there trying to help you no matter how many times you try to push him away from you.
Lol if he never gives up on me even if I push him away then why do I have to bother believing in him (which seems like a stupid qualification on geting into heaven anyways)

...he will always be there trying to help you no matter how many times you try to push him away from you.

If God is real, he is not doing anything to help. It seems more like God is kicking back on his throne with his feet up.

Anyways, that's how I see it. I see atheists as people who push their agenda as much as any religious group, and I see the religions saying the atheists are going to burn in hell, are infidels, are not one with nature blah blah...
Both parties? Guilty.

Politically though, the religious groups are far more authoritarian in their agenda and more of a threat to freedom. Secularism at least allows for people to go about their daily lives worshipping and believing what they like - it just means that the state/government (as a ruling body) is 'atheist', or neutral. At the end of the day, Christians are far less oppressed under a secular and liberal government than say, homosexuals, would be under a religious fundamentalist regime...

Where secularists would like to make society open and tolerant, religious fundies would like to make it exclusively Christian. I see a distinct difference.

The beauty of the skies, a portal into an awesomely huge and beautiful universe, is unbelievable.
The very ground you walk upon right now is a testament to mankind's intelligence. To come up with soemthing so commonplace as carpeting or cement, but so complex, signifies an intelligence capacity that nothing but an all-powerful Creator could have designed.
Even at levels we cannot see, the universe is beautifully perfect. A mere four nucleotides, using only four possible bases, are ultimately responsible for the creation of millions of individual species.
Atoms are glued unmovably to other atoms, and their electrons are moving trillions of times in their individual orbits. The atoms themselves would be impossible to exist in our current dimensions, the only things we know, and thus would need to extend into another seven dimensions. How could any four-dimensional accident make an unbelievable eleven, and possibly more?
Give yourself a little credit. The only intelligence in that beauty you see is your own: your capacity for reason, for symbolism, and for love. This is what mankind does best, find the patterns and name them.

If God is real, he is not doing anything to help. It seems more like God is kicking back on his throne with his feet up.
Exactly. If God cares about me so much, where is he/she/it in my life?

God IS loving, forgiving, kind, and caring. However, another of His many, infinate traits is wrath, power, anger.
Although He is not quick to become angry, His anger is greater and less desirable than anything you have ever seen.
Onto the loving train again, God's love is evident in our very lives, the fact that nobody on earth is, right now, struck down by holy lightning, perfectly exemplifies forgiveness.
However, the greatest testament to His love is the Good News. The fact that a living, thinking being would sacrafice his own very closely loved son in order to save tiny, unnessecary, little swarming pieces of vermin is an unbelievable show of how great God's love is.
If you ignore every other part of the Bible, please do not EVER blow this piece of truth off, your very eternity depends upon it.

Your God is not loving, he is blood thirsty. He demanded blood sacrifice to pay for sins that we could not help but commit anyway. Then his son is a sacrifice too. Why does he require that to save us?

Exactly. If God cares about me so much, where is he/she/it in my life?

Hey Preebles ;)

Hey Preebles ;)God?! Is that you??? :eek:

God?! Is that you??? :eek:

Of course. Isnt it obvious???

Hide me from the circular logic!!!
*pfft* Well if you're going to invoke logic... ;)

My point was not an attempt at logic, but just to say that there are people who unquestioningly accept that God created the world, and that is their starting point, which makes the universe's existence evidence.

A redundant point, perhaps.

Exactly. If God cares about me so much, where is he/she/it in my life?

Turn around
Turn around
There's a thing there that can be found
Turn around
Turn around
It's a human skull on the ground
Human skull
On the ground
Turn around

And that's about it.

There is no point trying to prove a point to someone who will not listen. All I can tell you is that you might have given up on God, but God will never give up on you, and he will always be there trying to help you no matter how many times you try to push him away from you.

Or, alternatively - 'God' will never give up on you, because he is a fictional character in a fairly popular (but pretty badly written) old book.

All a matter of perspective.

Your God is not loving, he is blood thirsty. He demanded blood sacrifice to pay for sins that we could not help but commit anyway. Then his son is a sacrifice too. Why does he require that to save us?

Your logic is good taking into account your lack of understanding. However:

God did not "demand" a blood sacrifice in Jesus, Jesus sacrificed himself of his own free will.

While Christians can be sure that the death of Jesus on the cross did free us from original sin (not the sins we commit ourselves, they are forgiven through repentence and not through the death of Jesus), How it did this is what we Christians call a mystery. One of the most popular theological theories is that, as you say, "Jesus payed for our sins", but this is a theory, and is not "holy writ" as such.

Politically though, the religious groups are far more authoritarian in their agenda and more of a threat to freedom. Secularism at least allows for people to go about their daily lives worshipping and believing what they like - it just means that the state/government (as a ruling body) is 'atheist', or neutral. ... Where secularists would like to make society open and tolerant, religious fundies would like to make it exclusively Christian. I see a distinct difference.
Too bad many so-called secularists just exchange one religion for another - instead of believing in the 'One True God' they believe in the 'One True Power of Money' or the 'One True Progress That Is Always Good'. And they can be just as extreme with it as other religious folk.

Too bad many so-called secularists just exchange one religion for another - instead of believing in the 'One True God' they believe in the 'One True Power of Money' or the 'One True Progress That Is Always Good'. And they can be just as extreme with it as other religious folk.
? There are just as many "religious" people who seem to also believe in the "one true power of money"
I would say something akin to scientism is more the failure of the secular side of things

I find this ironic...

soon it'll be post #666, and that in a topic about god...

I would say something akin to scientism is more the failure of the secular side of things
Which is what I meant with the 'One True Progress'-thingy. And indeed, those 'religions' are interchangeable and complementary.

I am a bit of a non-traditionalist but I believe that God is sort of a collective bargaining unit. It is the whole of everything that exists. Were all a small piece of God itself. My question is are we all trying to find a way to get back together as one unit? Or are we trying to figure out how to stay apart. or are there conflicting factions trying to get both accopmlished. I base my "belief" soley on a gut feeling of what I believe is true. It's called faith.

I am a bit of a non-traditionalist but I believe that God is sort of a collective bargaining unit. It is the whole of everything that exists. Were all a small piece of God itself. My question is are we all trying to find a way to get back together as one unit? Or are we trying to figure out how to stay apart. or are there conflicting factions trying to get both accopmlished. I base my "belief" soley on a gut feeling of what I believe is true. It's called faith.
:D Who's the employer?

:D Who's the employer?
Everything still is. it just doesn't have a coherent voice right now.
This explains the confusion.

Everything still is. it just doesn't have a coherent voice right now.
This explains the confusion.
I love it! :)

Your logic is good taking into account your lack of understanding. However:

God did not "demand" a blood sacrifice in Jesus, Jesus sacrificed himself of his own free will.

While Christians can be sure that the death of Jesus on the cross did free us from original sin (not the sins we commit ourselves, they are forgiven through repentence and not through the death of Jesus), How it did this is what we Christians call a mystery. One of the most popular theological theories is that, as you say, "Jesus payed for our sins", but this is a theory, and is not "holy writ" as such.

Hmm, i guess you've never read the Old Testament. Re-read it again; perhaps you will change your post. Also i know Jesus did it on his "free will." I said he was also a sacrifice, which he was, as you also agree with. Jesus was the Atonement for sin. Read the letters of Paul.

Too bad many so-called secularists just exchange one religion for another - instead of believing in the 'One True God' they believe in the 'One True Power of Money' or the 'One True Progress That Is Always Good'. And they can be just as extreme with it as other religious folk.

That's the thing though. Some secularists are Christian/theists. Tony Blair, for example, leads a fairly secular government. Even though he is a devout Christian, he doesn't seem to make an issue out of it politically (unlike Bush) and supports gay rights etc.

God has not been proven to not exist. But he has not been proven TO exist either, so therefore, he must not exist.

quite the same about evolution but people dont seem to care

God has not been proven to not exist. But he has not been proven TO exist either, so therefore, he must not exist.
it doesnt matter if God hasnt been proven to exist. Did the Europeans believe in another whole continent before Columbus? no. so if we dont believe in god it doesnt mean that he isnt there. i mean just because we cant prove there isnt intelligent life somewhere else in the universe doesnt mean that there isnt intelligent life.

quite the same about evolution but people dont seem to care
thats only because it contradicts everything that was interpreted for the average person.

quite the same about evolution but people dont seem to care
depends on what part of evolutionary theory you are refering to. microevolution has been proven as thoroughly as anything can be proven in science. macroevolution has been supported by all data to date, though it most certainly has not been proven.

No, they believe in a type of God, but don't see him the same way. Besides, most people of the Hindu and Buddhist religions have never even HEARD of the Christian God.

buddhists do not believe in a god

buddhists do not believe in a god
That's not strictly true. If I remember correctly, they believe in god, he's just not a big part of their religion.

Everything still is. it just doesn't have a coherent voice right now.
This explains the confusion.

Congratulations on getting post number 666 in an atheism/theism thread.

Your logic is good taking into account your lack of understanding. However:

God did not "demand" a blood sacrifice in Jesus, Jesus sacrificed himself of his own free will.

While Christians can be sure that the death of Jesus on the cross did free us from original sin (not the sins we commit ourselves, they are forgiven through repentence and not through the death of Jesus), How it did this is what we Christians call a mystery. One of the most popular theological theories is that, as you say, "Jesus payed for our sins", but this is a theory, and is not "holy writ" as such.

I would argue that you are suffering from alack of understanding, also...

Jesus sacrificed himself - of his own free will...

And yet - God put Jesus here for just one reason, and that reason was to die to atone for the sins of mankind.

Therefore - God demanded a blood-sacrifice for appeasement... as he had in earlier stories... but this time, it was his OWN son, and he didn't spare him.

I would argue that you are suffering from alack of understanding, also...

Jesus sacrificed himself - of his own free will...

And yet - God put Jesus here for just one reason, and that reason was to die to atone for the sins of mankind.

Therefore - God demanded a blood-sacrifice for appeasement... as he had in earlier stories... but this time, it was his OWN son, and he didn't spare him.
yeah, i was always told that the reason Jesus died in such a rotten way was that God wouldn't be "able" to forgive man's sins unless he received this sacrifice. whenever i point out what a barbaric and stupid choice it was, i'm told that God "had to have" that sacrifice, and that God put Jesus on the Earth to acheive it.

yeah, i was always told that the reason Jesus died in such a rotten way was that God wouldn't be "able" to forgive man's sins unless he received this sacrifice. whenever i point out what a barbaric and stupid choice it was, i'm told that God "had to have" that sacrifice, and that God put Jesus on the Earth to acheive it.

Yes. The whole 'sacrifice' aspect I really find confusing. It seems to me that a loving God could forgive without spilling the blood of animals, and especially his "sons" blood.

Well, I believe something is behind the universe. For me the question is more whether this something is conscious, and if so, if he/she/it has the power to directly influence our lives (such as most religions claim)

Yes. The whole 'sacrifice' aspect I really find confusing. It seems to me that a loving God could forgive without spilling the blood of animals, and especially his "sons" blood.
dude, do you want a list of how many times the Bible God demands blood offerings?! He spends more time telling us to sacrifice each other than He spends telling us not to have gay sex, yet for some reason the Christians choose to overlook that tiny detail.

dude, do you want a list of how many times the Bible God demands blood offerings?! He spends more time telling us to sacrifice each other than He spends telling us not to have gay sex, yet for some reason the Christians choose to overlook that tiny detail.

Ive very familiar with the bible, so thats not necessary. God also enjoys the sacrifices. Check this out:

Leviticus 1:9
He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

I guess God enjoys the smell of burning animal flesh. A great and loving god indeed...

Ive very familiar with the bible, so thats not necessary. God also enjoys the sacrifices. Check this out:

Leviticus 1:9
He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

I guess God enjoys the smell of burning animal flesh. A great and loving god indeed...

I think it is interesting to note that Jesus did not perform or mention animal sacrifice. Nor, is it found in Islam (If my memory is correct.) In the progression of God's Messengers it is Jesus and then Muhammad and animal sacrifice is no longer necessary. This part of religion is not the core spiritual teaching.

I would argue that you are suffering from alack of understanding, also...

Jesus sacrificed himself - of his own free will...

And yet - God put Jesus here for just one reason, and that reason was to die to atone for the sins of mankind.

Therefore - God demanded a blood-sacrifice for appeasement... as he had in earlier stories... but this time, it was his OWN son, and he didn't spare him.

One of the things that is missing from this line of thought is that Jesus Himself is God. It was His own law that He was vindicating. He and the Father are one, their wills, their plans their actions are inexplicably united in a way that is impossible to fathom. To suggest that God demanded Christ sacrifice Himself is little different than saying Christ demanded that He sacrifice Himself.

Also, there was much more than the atonement sacrifice to Christ's mission here. He also came to demonstrate the love of God for His creation, the perfection and immutability of His Divine Law both in principle and practice, as well as to bind up the wounded, heal the sick, mend broken hearts, set sin's captives free and show us the Father just to name a few.

One of the things that is missing from this line of thought is that Jesus Himself is God. It was His own law that He was vindicating. He and the Father are one, their wills, their plans their actions are inexplicably united in a way that is impossible to fathom. To suggest that God demanded Christ sacrifice Himself is little different than saying Christ demanded that He sacrifice Himself.

Also, there was much more than the atonement sacrifice to Christ's mission here. He also came to demonstrate the love of God for His creation, the perfection and immutability of His Divine Law both in principle and practice, as well as to bind up the wounded, heal the sick, mend broken hearts, set sin's captives free and show us the Father just to name a few.

If Jesus is God how can God be greater than God? Doesn't Jesus say that my Father who is in heaven is greater than Me? Explain this to me please.

One of the things that is missing from this line of thought is that Jesus Himself is God. It was His own law that He was vindicating. He and the Father are one, their wills, their plans their actions are inexplicably united in a way that is impossible to fathom. To suggest that God demanded Christ sacrifice Himself is little different than saying Christ demanded that He sacrifice Himself.

Also, there was much more than the atonement sacrifice to Christ's mission here. He also came to demonstrate the love of God for His creation, the perfection and immutability of His Divine Law both in principle and practice, as well as to bind up the wounded, heal the sick, mend broken hearts, set sin's captives free and show us the Father just to name a few.

Well, you have to look back at what I was originally responding to - someone asserting that another poster lacked understanding, because (as that poster asserted), "God did not "demand" a blood sacrifice in Jesus".

The proposal is often put forward that God hates sin.

Also, that God cannot just 'forgive' sin - because otherwise damnation becomes a form of optional punishment for those God CHOOSES not to forgive.

Thus - the only available path, is that God needed a gesture of atonement.

As with Cain sacrificing that which he held most dear, or Abraham doing the same - only a significant sacrifice is going to be able to life the threat of automatic damnation from all humans... and that sacrifice is in the form of God himself... or, at least, his incarnated form.

So - God creates an incarnated form, specifically to fulfill the requirement of sacrifice... whether or not this is a human separate from God is irrelevent.

This incarnation is then sacrificed... and the threat of automatic damnation is lifted... washed away in the blood of the lamb.

Thus - the ONLY thing that could save men, was the blood of Jesus (whether he is God (in person), God incarnated, or just a divine puppet.. still, the blood was a requirement, as was the sacrifice.

So - God did 'require' a blood sacrifice... thus - "Einsteinian Big-Heads" was making a false assertion.

Well, you have to look back at what I was originally responding to - someone asserting that another poster lacked understanding, because (as that poster asserted), "God did not "demand" a blood sacrifice in Jesus".

The proposal is often put forward that God hates sin.

Also, that God cannot just 'forgive' sin - because otherwise damnation becomes a form of optional punishment for those God CHOOSES not to forgive.

Thus - the only available path, is that God needed a gesture of atonement.

As with Cain sacrificing that which he held most dear, or Abraham doing the same - only a significant sacrifice is going to be able to life the threat of automatic damnation from all humans... and that sacrifice is in the form of God himself... or, at least, his incarnated form.

So - God creates an incarnated form, specifically to fulfill the requirement of sacrifice... whether or not this is a human separate from God is irrelevent.

This incarnation is then sacrificed... and the threat of automatic damnation is lifted... washed away in the blood of the lamb.

Thus - the ONLY thing that could save men, was the blood of Jesus (whether he is God (in person), God incarnated, or just a divine puppet.. still, the blood was a requirement, as was the sacrifice.

So - God did 'require' a blood sacrifice... thus - "Einsteinian Big-Heads" was making a false assertion.

eehh that's what I get for jumping into the middle of a conversation without enough context. Still, the big picture is more than just the requirement of a sacrifice and is important context...

If Jesus is God how can God be greater than God? Doesn't Jesus say that my Father who is in heaven is greater than Me? Explain this to me please.

Christ is defferential to the Father granted, however, paradoxical as it may seem, He is also God. I know western thought doesn't do paradoxics, but doesn't make them invalid. It just means we don't see how they can coexist.

eehh that's what I get for jumping into the middle of a conversation without enough context. Still, the big picture is more than just the requirement of a sacrifice and is important context...

:)

No harm done... :)

My argument wasn't really with the 'sacriciness' of the story... more with Einsteinian's assertion that the other poster was somehow uninformed...

Nice to see you around, anyway. :)

Christ is defferential to the Father granted, however, paradoxical as it may seem, He is also God. I know western thought doesn't do paradoxics, but doesn't make them invalid. It just means we don't see how they can coexist.

Another way to look at the relationship is that Christ spoke with the authority of God. He was God's Mouthpiece of earth. The power of God could no more come to earth in His full glory than we can look directly into the sun.

Another way to look at the relationship is that Christ spoke with the authority of God. He was God's Mouthpiece of earth. The power of God could no more come to earth in His full glory than we can look directly into the sun.

Not quite.

Jesus was not God's mouthpiece, but rather God's very own Son. Those here probably all know that He did not come to earth on God's behalf, but rather on our own. Jesus did not come to be a teacher, he came, although teaching was accomplished in his lifetime, to become a sacrafice, much like any sheep or goat would have been to the Jews, but so, so, so, soooooo much bigger than even the most perfect white sheep.

Christ is defferential to the Father granted, however, paradoxical as it may seem, He is also God. I know western thought doesn't do paradoxics, but doesn't make them invalid. It just means we don't see how they can coexist.

What do you mean by 'Western thought?' I perfectly understand the paradox of Jesus is less than AND equal to God, even though it is impossible to fully grasp. I just aknowledge it as truth.

Not quite.

Jesus was not God's mouthpiece, but rather God's very own Son. Those here probably all know that He did not come to earth on God's behalf, but rather on our own. Jesus did not come to be a teacher, he came, although teaching was accomplished in his lifetime, to become a sacrafice, much like any sheep or goat would have been to the Jews, but so, so, so, soooooo much bigger than even the most perfect white sheep.

8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him

(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

Another way to look at the relationship is that Christ spoke with the authority of God. He was God's Mouthpiece of earth. The power of God could no more come to earth in His full glory than we can look directly into the sun.
More then that ... by deffinition god can not exist compleatly within the universe having created it (if you take god as true which I dont) a compleatly internal force can not create what it is contained in

Not quite.

Jesus was not God's mouthpiece, but rather God's very own Son. Those here probably all know that He did not come to earth on God's behalf, but rather on our own. Jesus did not come to be a teacher, he came, although teaching was accomplished in his lifetime, to become a sacrafice, much like any sheep or goat would have been to the Jews, but so, so, so, soooooo much bigger than even the most perfect white sheep.

7:14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Not quite.

Jesus was not God's mouthpiece, but rather God's very own Son. Those here probably all know that He did not come to earth on God's behalf, but rather on our own. Jesus did not come to be a teacher, he came, although teaching was accomplished in his lifetime, to become a sacrafice, much like any sheep or goat would have been to the Jews, but so, so, so, soooooo much bigger than even the most perfect white sheep.

"The glory of all greatness belongeth to God, the Incomparable, the All-Compelling!" The Mystic Dove proclaimeth from its blissful bower, in the everlasting Paradise: "The source of all bounty is derived, in this Day, from God, the One, the Forgiving!" The Bird of the Throne warbleth its melody in its retreats of holiness: "Supreme ascendancy is to be attributed, this Day, to none except God, Him Who hath no peer nor equal, Who is the Most Powerful, the All-Subduing!"

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 34)

More then that ... by deffinition god can not exist compleatly within the universe having created it (if you take god as true which I dont) a compleatly internal force can not create what it is contained in

I find this thought interesting. I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Does this come from some scientific theory?

"The glory of all greatness belongeth to God, the Incomparable, the All-Compelling!" The Mystic Dove proclaimeth from its blissful bower, in the everlasting Paradise: "The source of all bounty is derived, in this Day, from God, the One, the Forgiving!" The Bird of the Throne warbleth its melody in its retreats of holiness: "Supreme ascendancy is to be attributed, this Day, to none except God, Him Who hath no peer nor equal, Who is the Most Powerful, the All-Subduing!"

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 34)
Please, tell me who the freak Baha'u'llah was, and why I should trust him with the Divine?

7:14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

I say again, Jesus did come, and taught, but His prime goal was to die as a sacrafice, and you should know that.

I do believe in some sort of holy existence, but the Christian or Catholic god is NOT IT!

Do you think a god would want you killing millions of people for him/her/it? NO!

Do you think your all holy god would want some sort of material sacrifice? NO!

So, religion in general have been blown so out of preportion that I shun it now. However, I do believe that is some sort of divine being that created us. And I think it is Buddha...jk. Buddhism is cool, but I don't think someone like Buddha would want to create us.

I find this thought interesting. I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Does this come from some scientific theory?
Logic not nessisarily theory
Also generaly goes with general religious belief

If god was compleatly contained within the universe he would have limits (would be limited to however big the universe is) so he could not be the generaly accepted omni-potent limitless god you all like to believe in (not going to bring up the fact that omni-potence is logicaly flawed in and of itself)

But you can also (and this goes with the religous creationism belief that everything needs a creator) you can not create yourself ... god would have to be an external force creating everything

I do believe in some sort of holy existence, but the Christian or Catholic god is NOT IT!

Do you think a god would want you killing millions of people for him/her/it? NO!

Do you think your all holy god would want some sort of material sacrifice? NO!

So, religion in general have been blown so out of preportion that I shun it now. However, I do believe that is some sort of divine being that created us. And I think it is Buddha...jk. Buddhism is cool, but I don't think someone like Buddha would want to create us.

God does NOT want people do kill for Him, where'd you get that idea?

Nor does God want (anymore) a sacrafice. His Son was the sacrafice enough.

Oh yes, and, Bhudda was a prince who turned to a life of peace, and was by no means a deity capable of creating anybody.

God does NOT want people do kill for Him, where'd you get that idea?

Nor does God want (anymore) a sacrafice. His Son was the sacrafice enough.

Oh yes, and, Bhudda was a prince who turned to a life of peace, and was by no means a deity capable of creating anybody.
I never got that ... why did god change his mind about sacrafice?

Being that god is omni-potent (suposedly) and omni-knowing you would have figured he would have created christ to die for our sins FIRST rather then changing his mind a few thousand years into it and deciding that sacrafice was not the best method for salvation

Please, tell me who the freak Baha'u'llah was, and why I should trust him with the Divine?

Baha'u'llah whose name means the Glory of God is the Promised One of All ages. The return of Moses, Christ, Muhammed, Buddha Khrisna, Zorosater and other. I expect that you won't believe this which is ok that is up to you.

And what about Baha'u'llahs words seem so freaky to you?

Sure, even thou I do see him/her as being different from the typical Christian version.

me 2 im wiccan. but some scientists believe their something out playing a game with us as the pieces. but if they find out we know they'll hit the delete button

That's not strictly true. If I remember correctly, they believe in god, he's just not a big part of their religion.

Off the topic of this thread, but you are right, *some* buddhists beleive in a god but many/most do not, its a personal choice not a requirement and it tends to be an impersonal force in the universe rather than a deity which is why, i guess some argue that it's a religion, others that it's a philosophy, there's no division between things, division is an illusion so i guess with that thinking, ultimately you are indistinguishable from "god"

Logic not nessisarily theory
Also generaly goes with general religious belief

If god was compleatly contained within the universe he would have limits (would be limited to however big the universe is) so he could not be the generaly accepted omni-potent limitless god you all like to believe in (not going to bring up the fact that omni-potence is logicaly flawed in and of itself)

But you can also (and this goes with the religous creationism belief that everything needs a creator) you can not create yourself ... god would have to be an external force creating everything

Thanks for the reply on this. I understand what you are saying now and don't completly disagree. Baha'is think of God as the unknowable essense. The many words that we use to describe God by the nature of limits of langauge can not fully describe the Creator.

Alright, let's say that the universe is this box: _
|_|
Naturalistic views believe that the universe is in the box, and, thus everything else must be inside it. That's wehre your logic comes from. Saying that the universe could not hold an omni-anything because it is limited.

However, when you say that something is outside the box, you begin a theistic point of view. That God, or at least a god, that has power, from a third-person-omniscient point-of-view, over everything that exists inside that box.
That is what I believe, with a passion.
Um that is what I was describing ... the reasoning why god could not be contained in the box

Thanks for the reply on this. I understand what you are saying now and don't completly disagree. Baha'is think of God as the unknowable essense. The many words that we use to describe God by the nature of limits of langauge can not fully describe the Creator.
Was actualy thinking the same thing with respect to omni-Anything language lol

I never got that ... why did god change his mind about sacrafice?

Being that god is omni-potent (suposedly) and omni-knowing you would have figured he would have created christ to die for our sins FIRST rather then changing his mind a few thousand years into it and deciding that sacrafice was not the best method for salvation

God changed His mind because He sent Jesus.

I think that He sent Jesus because of some sort of construction that the Jews had to make in three hundred-something years.
But I probably don't know why God chose 0 AD as the time necessary, but it IS His will to make, not mine to understand.

Um that is what I was describing ... the reasoning why god could not be contained in the box
Hmm... I missed the second part. Sorry, deleting....

God changed His mind because He sent Jesus.

I think that He sent Jesus because of some sort of construction that the Jews had to make in three hundred-something years.
But I probably don't know why God chose 0 AD as the time necessary, but it IS His will to make, not mine to understand.
Yeah but for some reason he had implemented a flawed methold of forgiveness (sacrafice)

And had to implement a new one (belief in jesus)

Obviosly he made a mistake implementing the first one and discovered the flaw and implemented a new one.

me 2 im wiccan. but some scientists believe their something out playing a game with us as the pieces. but if they find out we know they'll hit the delete button

That's pretty funny. What scientist are these?

Hmm... I missed the second part. Sorry, deleting....
No problem :) I was just confused

Yeah but for some reason he had implemented a flawed methold of forgiveness (sacrafice)

And had to implement a new one (belief in jesus)

Obviosly he made a mistake implementing the first one and discovered the flaw and implemented a new one.
How would you have done the first?
Anyway, the Bible says that Jesus was planned since the Fall of Man, so it wasn't a mistaken system.

That's pretty funny. What scientist are these?
Doctors Insanovski and Chun Weerd

How would you have done the first?
Anyway, the Bible says that Jesus was planned since the Fall of Man, so it wasn't a mistaken system.
Would have done the jesus sacrafice first because that is the suposedly superior of the two

Being god I would have seen this before hand and all

Was actualy thinking the same thing with respect to omni-Anything language lol

That is the same struggle that happen thousands of years ago when peoples language and knowledge was even more limited. How do you explain concepts that we have no experience with--heaven, hell many others. So we describe hell as full of sulpher, and heaven as paved streets of gold. Concepts that seem silly now, but were usefull at the time.

God changed His mind because He sent Jesus.

I think that He sent Jesus because of some sort of construction that the Jews had to make in three hundred-something years.
But I probably don't know why God chose 0 AD as the time necessary, but it IS His will to make, not mine to understand.

When did God change his mind?

Would have done the jesus sacrafice first because that is the suposedly superior of the two

Being god I would have seen this before hand and all

Heck, I have NO clue WHY God did what He did, but He did it all the same. I cannot explain God's will, and we have no reason to question it. How 'bout you just believe it and watch some TV. It's a lot less mentally draining than questioning the will of a Deity whose intelligence is beyond our comprehension. How 'bout you ask Him when you get to heaven?

When did God change his mind?

Didn't change is mind, to tell the direct truth, but rather just changed the way that things went.

Heck, I have NO clue WHY God did what He did, but He did it all the same. I cannot explain God's will, and we have no reason to question it. How 'bout you just believe it and watch some TV. It's a lot less mentally draining than questioning the will of a Deity whose intelligence is beyond our comprehension. How 'bout you ask Him when you get to heaven?
Blind faith is not something god allows me to do if he honestly created me
He should know that
And being all knowing he should
In that case god knew I would question EVERYTHING around me

If he is going to send me to hell for questioning EVERYTHING including the diluted recordings in some translated book so be it

He will have created me for the sole purpose of going to hell

Personaly a god like that is not worth following for me ... and I would hope that a diety if it exists would be understanding of the limitations it gave me and find a way for me to go to heaven anyway (being omni potent he should be able to)

Didn't change is mind, to tell the direct truth, but rather just changed the way that things went.
True but does not change the fact that it could not find a way to save more people first it did not choose to implement the better choice of the two first

Blind faith is not something god allows me to do if he honestly created me
He should know that
And being all knowing he should
In that case god knew I would question EVERYTHING around me

If he is going to send me to hell for questioning EVERYTHING including the diluted recordings in some translated book so be it

He will have created me for the sole purpose of going to hell

Personaly a god like that is not worth following for me ... and I would hope that a diety if it exists would be understanding of the limitations it gave me and find a way for me to go to heaven anyway (being omni potent he should be able to)

God makes everyon because they all have the ability to work for His plan. If they do it willingly and by obeying Him, they get the rewards. But if they do not even accept the User's existence, then they get no rewards for His use of them, and just go to Hell as a punishment for their disbelief.

So, your choice: get the rewards, both temporary and eternal, or reap the punishments, both temporary and eternal.

True but does not change the fact that it could not find a way to save more people first it did not choose to implement the better choice of the two first

Aaaagain, I can't say WHY, just count yourself lucky that you were born at a time that you have the option of a Savior or hell, not a million sacrafices + being a Jew or Hell.

Baha'u'llah whose name means the Glory of God is the Promised One of All ages. The return of Moses, Christ, Muhammed, Buddha Khrisna, Zorosater and other. I expect that you won't believe this which is ok that is up to you.

And what about Baha'u'llahs words seem so freaky to you?

Vespucii here is the answer to who Baha'u'llah is. Sent twice.

[QUOTE=Vespucii]
One of the reasons why Islam is called what it is. If you didn't know already, the word Islam means 'Submission'.

isint it submission to god and muslim means means one who submits. i watched a muslim propaganda video in RE

Blind faith is not something god allows me to do if he honestly created me
He should know that
And being all knowing he should
In that case god knew I would question EVERYTHING around me

If he is going to send me to hell for questioning EVERYTHING including the diluted recordings in some translated book so be it

He will have created me for the sole purpose of going to hell

Personaly a god like that is not worth following for me ... and I would hope that a diety if it exists would be understanding of the limitations it gave me and find a way for me to go to heaven anyway (being omni potent he should be able to)

You are right about this I believe. God wants us to ask questions, to inquire. That is human nature. If those who believe they have all of the answers can't answer your questions it is not your fault. I believe that you can answer most of your own questions.

God makes everyon because they all have the ability to work for His plan. If they do it willingly and by obeying Him, they get the rewards. But if they do not even accept the User's existence, then they get no rewards for His use of them, and just go to Hell as a punishment for their disbelief.

So, your choice: get the rewards, both temporary and eternal, or reap the punishments, both temporary and eternal.
You dont understand I personaly CANT not truely believe nothing more then going through the motions

Not blindly

God made me without the capasity to believe in the current "proof" of him

Its not a choice for me not without better proof

One masochistic god to create someone without the ability to get into heaven

You are right about this I believe. God wants us to ask questions, to inquire. That is human nature. If those who believe they have all of the answers can't answer your questions it is not your fault. I believe that you can answer most of your own questions.
Exactly (you sound very deist or general theist rather then a specific denom) I myself am agnostic but yeah

Vespucii here is the answer to who Baha'u'llah is. Sent twice.
Yes, I know, I read it, but I forgot to respond to it. My bad.

That's pretty funny. What scientist are these?

i donno theres an intellectual magazine and they pulish articles like the article on what i wrote about. not all scientists are atheist.

[QUOTE=Dakhistan]

isint it submission to god and muslim means means one who submits. i watched a muslim propaganda video in RE

Islam means submission to the will of God. Each religion sent by God through His divine Messengers had a theme. Christ's teachings centered around love. Moses was the law bringer. Baha'u'llah's message is the unity of humanity.

You dont understand I personaly CANT not truely believe nothing more then going through the motions

Not blindly

God made me without the capasity to believe in the current "proof" of him

Its not a choice for me not without better proof

One masochistic god to create someone without the ability to get into heaven

I will flat-out say it, that I cannot prove my religion. Nor will I say that you can't disprove it, because that argument is outdated. However, I will say that believing in the Lord Christ Jesus requires a leap of faith.
But, funnily enough, so does believing that He doesn't exist.

i donno theres an intellectual magazine and they pulish articles like the article on what i wrote about. not all scientists are atheist.

I would love to read about the guys who think someone might his the delete button and we would all be gone. Can you find this artilce?

[QUOTE=Avarhierrim]

Islam means submission to the will of God. Each religion sent by God through His divine Messengers had a theme. Christ's teachings centered around love. Moses was the law bringer. Baha'u'llah's message is the unity of humanity.

Fine, Jesus's messages were about love, but to you know why He came and taught messages about love? SO THAT HE COULD DIE FOR US!!! Why don't you get it?

I will flat-out say it, that I cannot prove my religion. Nor will I say that you can't disprove it, because that argument is outdated. However, I will say that believing in the Lord Christ Jesus requires a leap of faith.
But, funnily enough, so does believing that He doesn't exist.

And that is why I can neither confirm nor deny.

There is so much evidence against the existence of "God". And, if there is only one God, why are there so many other religions? I vote Atheist. :rolleyes:

I will flat-out say it, that I cannot prove my religion. Nor will I say that you can't disprove it, because that argument is outdated. However, I will say that believing in the Lord Christ Jesus requires a leap of faith.
But, funnily enough, so does believing that He doesn't exist.
I can not do the faith thing it is not a part of me
IT was not something I was born with

I agree disbelieving in a diety requires faith ... hence my agnosticism not atheism

But jesus as a specific having existed within the universe is a proovable (unlike god) we may not have the knoledge right now but it is within the realm of possibility at least (the existance of ... though maybe not the suposed mirricals)

Exactly (you sound very deist or general theist rather then a specific denom) I myself am agnostic but yeah

I very strongly believe in on God. Who has sent Messengers to earth to help us understand His purpose for humankind. Each of these Messengers speak with the same voice, follow the same divine plan and are in complete agreement with each other. The differences that seem to exist are the incorrect interpetations of humans about who the Messengers are and what there purpose for humanity is.

I very strongly believe in on God. Who has sent Messengers to earth to help us understand His purpose for humankind. Each of these Messengers speak with the same voice, follow the same divine plan and are in complete agreement with each other. The differences that seem to exist are the incorrect interpetations of humans about who the Messengers are and what there purpose for humanity is.
So diest :) (mostly) cool the one form of belief that does not have logical flaws in it :) I was diest for a long time (I compeatly lost my faith in christianity in 4th grade)

[QUOTE=GoodThoughts]

Fine, Jesus's messages were about love, but to you know why He came and taught messages about love? SO THAT HE COULD DIE FOR US!!! Why don't you get it?

Holy cow man. I can hear you ok. You don't have to shout. He died for us because the people of the day would not listen to the message. They wanted the physical kingdom right now. They didn't get it. Jesus told them the kingdom He spoke of was spiritual. That's why Muhammed had to come with the message of submission to the will of God. And today Christ has come back with the message of unity of the world of creation, religion, people. It's time for us to put aside differences and learn to live together. Don't you think?

So diest :) (mostly) cool the one form of belief that does not have logical flaws in it :) I was diest for a long time (I compeatly lost my faith in christianity in 4th grade)
I had a similiar falling out around 6th or 7th grade. It didn't make much sense as it was presented to me by those who were supposed to know. Then I found a religion that made sense. A religion that said everyone deserved to go to heaven, not just a select few who happened to belong to the right church.

I had a similiar falling out around 6th or 7th grade. It didn't make much sense as it was presented to me by those who were supposed to know. Then I found a religion that made sense. A religion that said everyone deserved to go to heaven, not just a select few who happened to belong to the right church.

The same with me, beginning around 6th or 7th and finally 100% severing in 11th.

And that is why I can neither confirm nor deny.

I say, right now, that confirmation or denial is on what precariously hinges your very soul.

What have you to lose by believing in that Savior?

There is so much evidence against the existence of "God". And, if there is only one God, why are there so many other religions? I vote Atheist. :rolleyes:

There are so many religions because God has sent messengers to all people around the world no matter where they live. Today He has sent Baha'u'llah to bring the worlds religions back together in unity.

NOOO

My battery's running low and the plug is in the car, which is currently 40 miles away

Gotta go.

I say, right now, that confirmation or denial is on what precariously hinges your very soul.

What have you to lose by believing in that Savior?
My life ... my fredom of though of action

And besides you cant just CHOOSE to believe you HAVE to believe otherwise you are just going through the motion

And besides I dont even believe my soul hinges on it so you got to have a better reason then that to convince me that I should make that choice (if it was possible)

I had a similiar falling out around 6th or 7th grade. It didn't make much sense as it was presented to me by those who were supposed to know. Then I found a religion that made sense. A religion that said everyone deserved to go to heaven, not just a select few who happened to belong to the right church.
Yeah mine was expidited by "events" in the 4th grade (my priest was one of "thoes" priests) and I ... lost my faith in that organization :)

The same with me, beginning around 6th or 7th and finally 100% severing in 11th.

Yes, pretty close for me too. Then I ran into this religion that talked about all people now matter where they came from being one people. And that there was really only one religion the religion of God. Baha'u'llah said it to Glory not is this that you love your country but that you love mankind. This kind of stuff jsut blew me away because I had always believed that kind of thinking. There is so much more. But in a nut shell most all of my question about religion were answered with the Baha'i Faith.