NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you believe in God?

No.

There, simple question, simple answer.

Yes, I do.

Nope, still don't, not going to either.

I don't know. But leaning towards atheism, certainly. I consider myself an agnostic.

The nays have it!

God has not been proven to not exist. But he has not been proven TO exist either, so therefore, he must not exist.

God has not been proven to not exist. But he has not been proven TO exist either, so therefore, he must not exist.

Quite right. The same applies to the Tooth Fairy, Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and Osama bin Laden.

Do you believe in God?

Yes, definately.

nopes

God has not been proven to not exist. But he has not been proven TO exist either, so therefore, he must not exist.

Er, wouldn't a better conclusion be "so therefore we don't know whether he exists or not"?

Er, wouldn't a better conclusion be "so therefore we don't know whether he exists or not"?
Bu surely if God DID exist, there'd be some evidence of it? Unless God created the universe then pissed off, which I find rather unlikely...

Er, wouldn't a better conclusion be "so therefore we don't know whether he exists or not"?

So by that same logic we don't know whether Santa exists or not?

Yes, definately.

Why? Do tell. I don't want this thread to turn into flame wars, so everybody be civil...

do you believe in (a)god? is a meaning less question. there is a god yes. but what does that prove?

do you believe in (a)god? is a meaning less question. there is a god yes. but what does that prove?

If there is as god then we should be fearful...

Sure, even thou I do see him/her as being different from the typical Christian version.

So by that same logic we don't know whether Santa exists or not?

Well, we can prove that Santa doesn't exist by buying no Christmas presents. If he does exist, you will find stacks of presents under your tree on Christmas morning. :)

But yes, by that logic we don't know whether he exists or not.

Well, we can prove that Santa doesn't exist by buying no Christmas presents. If he does exist, you will find stacks of presents under your tree on Christmas morning. :)

But yes, by that logic we don't know whether he exists or not.

Santa is a drunk old man, who only delievers presents so long as he has something to gain.

If there is as god then we should be fearful...
that depends whether or not you are on his good side. Jesus Christ made it so none would have to fear Him.

that depends whether or not you are on his good side. Jesus Christ made it so none would have to fear Him.
See, you say there is a god, and that whether people believe or not is immaterial. But all that tells us is that you believe in god... Care to provide us with some evidence?

Santa is a drunk old man, who only delievers presents so long as he has something to gain.

That's why I always leave cash and whisky in my stocking.

somehow i dont think i need evidence. my guess is that you already know that "a god" exist and you know who He is.

that depends whether or not you are on his good side. Jesus Christ made it so none would have to fear Him.

Not according to Christians I know. They say that we [sinners/non-believers] should be fearful, that we are goin' to hell. Bohyah! On the highway to hell...

somehow i dont think i need evidence. my guess is that you already know that "a god" exist and you know who He is.

Um, no I don't. I have never, ever felt the presence of a supreme being.

Edit: Besides which, I was raised Hindu. So if anything, god is sexless...

That's why I always leave cash and whisky in my stocking.

I stay awake all night on Christmas Eve with a shotgun, ready to ward off that red-suited freak. No way is he getting my booze…

Um, no I don't. I have never, ever felt the presence of a supreme being.

Edit: Besides which, I was raised Hindu. So if anything, god is sexless...
its your loss

its your loss

What did I lose? Besides my sanity...

Nope, don't believe in God.
But I have a question that's been bugging me for a while. If there was a god and if he was the "supreme being" who ruled in heaven or wherever it is he rules.....What form of government would be up there?

its your loss
LOL
Great response there.

What did I lose? Besides my sanity...
Oh sorry, I took that by mistake... *hands back*

Bu surely if God DID exist, there'd be some evidence of it? Unless God created the universe then pissed off, which I find rather unlikely...

The existence of something otherworldly, is one of the most documented things in human history. Every culture have such a notion, and outside of the Christian world it is still typical to find people that actually have a living experience with this “orherworld”. More often than not, the experience of this “otherworld” leads to the experience/belief in some concept of God. Do you need more evidence?

if there were no god mankind would have destroyed itself a long time ago.

The existence of something otherworldly, is one of the most documented things in human history. Every culture have such a notion, and outside of the Christian world it is still typical to find people that actually have a living experience with this “orherworld”. More often than not, the experience of this “otherworld” leads to the experience/belief in some concept of God. Do you need more evidence?
Ever noticed that most of these experiences are in the distant past? To me that indicates that they were explanations of things we don't understand or are merely myths. Nobody that I know has had any experiences with the supernatural.

And the "evidence" you cited is anecdotal at best. I'd like some scientific proof.

I stay awake all night on Christmas Eve with a shotgun, ready to ward off that red-suited freak. No way is he getting my booze…

I wouldn't recommend it. Why do you think Santa's so fat? That's body armour, not blubber.



Anyway, getting back on topic: I'm an agnostic, leaning towards disbelief in God.

Nope, don't believe in God.
But I have a question that's been bugging me for a while. If there was a god and if he was the "supreme being" who ruled in heaven or wherever it is he rules.....What form of government would be up there?

Psychotic dictatorship I bet.

Man(mankind) I think has been drunk on the blood of his neighbor for most of its existence. without god he would have died out a long time ago.

Anyway, getting back on topic: I'm an agnostic, leaning towards disbelief in God.

Same.

if there were no god mankind would have destroyed itself a long time ago.

If there was a God, he would have have destroyed us a long time ago... even if just by accident.

BREAKING NEWS: The nays and ayes are tied at 15. Repeating that for those who have just tuned in, the nays and ayes are tied at 15. Back to the discussion.

If there was a God, he would have have destroyed us a long time ago... even if just by accident.
I think we as people do a good enough job of killing each other without His help.

I think we as people do a good enough job of killing each other without His help.

We do a pretty good job of killing each other in His cause, whether He condones it or not...

I think we as people do a good enough job of killing each other without His help.

According to the Bible he's ordered and overseen a fair bit of killin'. Even of innocent children... tusk, tusk... but as my Christian friend says, "they weren't innocent - because they were pagan. Evil." And as his mother says, "God doesn't love the enemy. To hell with them."

So... hateful...

BREAKING NEWS: The ayes have taken the lead by two, now sitting at twenty.

God has not been proven to not exist. But he has not been proven TO exist either, so therefore, he must not exist.
Im here arent i!
God exists!

According to the Bible he's ordered and overseen a fair bit of killin'. Even of innocent children... tusk, tusk... but as my Christian friend says, "they weren't innocent - because they were pagan. Evil." And as his mother says, "God doesn't love the enemy. To hell with them."

So... hateful...
Not to mention raping the women of a tribe you'd just defeated.


Oh wait. You kill all but the virgins, and "take them as your wives." Which is of course a synonym for rape...

According to the Bible he's ordered and overseen a fair bit of killin'. Even of innocent children... tusk, tusk... but as my Christian friend says, "they weren't innocent - because they were pagan. Evil." And as his mother says, "God doesn't love the enemy. To hell with them."

So... hateful...

touche, i must admit i dont have all the answers. I can say this humanity has many a time manipulated religion to further various "unholy" causes.

Im here arent i!
God exists!

Jade is Goddess!

Not to mention raping the women of a tribe you'd just defeated.


Oh wait. You kill all but the virgins, and "take them as your wives." Which is of course a synonym for rape...
Yeah that was kind of rough!
Silly fools think they can deflower whats his names daughter or sister!

touche, i must admit i dont have all the answers. I can say this humanity has many a time manipulated religion to further various "unholy" causes.

The sad thing is, my friends are quite moderate and not at all what I would deem extreme in their beliefs...

Yeah that was kind of rough!
Silly fools think they can deflower whats his names daughter or sister!

And forced what's his face to marry a hooker...

Jade is Goddess!
Cant complain!
Not at all Pwharr!!1!!!
Ill go and see what you posted on missPOP! ;)

Yes, very much so.

I will take it a bit further. I believe there is only 1 true God, and that is the Judaeo-Christian God.

:cool:

Of course no side can be proven 100%. That is where belief and faith come into play.


Damchi

God has not been proven to not exist. But he has not been proven TO exist either, so therefore, he must not exist.

good logic

There you go JRV im an Absolute Tool i just invited the Goddess to join NS!
Hope she Does.
*Crosses Fingers and Toes and everything else that can be crossed*

I think that without god life is meaningless. we are born we live then die and thats it. with god around there is meaning to life and, I am not merely trying to proclaim my own existence only to be forgotten in the dregs of time. though i often wonder, maybe "god" is just a construct of my feeble human intelect.

Not to mention raping the women of a tribe you'd just defeated.


Oh wait. You kill all but the virgins, and "take them as your wives." Which is of course a synonym for rape...


Irrelevent. Slavery and racism used to be prevailent in the world, especially throughout America, do we then consider all current Americans racist and ex-slave owners because our ancestors thought it was ok?

Your reference above was about 1 instance in the book of Judges.

Surely you can come up with something better than this to try and demean Christians.

Damchi

Ever noticed that most of these experiences are in the distant past? To me that indicates that they were explanations of things we don't understand or are merely myths. Nobody that I know has had any experiences with the supernatural.

And the "evidence" you cited is anecdotal at best. I'd like some scientific proof.

Both myself and a number of people that I know, have had experiences with God and/or the “otherworld”. None of us are ancient beings from a distant past, I for one am a 24 year old European that have been brought up in a rather none religious environment.
For good reasons that wont be enough of a proof to convince you (why should you believe me), but so far it have been proof enough for me. Also if you combine my testimony with the millions of other eye witness accounts on the existence of God (there is more eye witness accounts on the existence of God, than there is for most of the historical events we take for granted), then I do at least think that there is enough “proof” to warrant an agnostic rather than atheistic viewpoint.

Both myself and a number of people that I know, have had experiences with God and/or the “otherworld”. None of us are ancient beings from a distant past, I for one am a 24 year old European that have been brought up in a rather none religious environment.
For good reasons that wont be enough of a proof to convince you (why should you believe me), but so far it have been proof enough for me. Also if you combine my testimony with the millions of other eye witness accounts on the existence of God (there is more eye witness accounts on the existence of God, than there is for most of the historical events we take for granted), then I do at least think that there is enough “proof” to warrant an agnostic rather than atheistic viewpoint.
Fair enough, but when people witness an historic event, usually more than one witness it at the same time...

Well, hello again!
I think that I'm going to introduce myself like this on every religion thread I find, despite the fact that the few who actually frequently visit those kind of threads despise me with their hearts, probably because I won't give up.

Anywho, I am a seriously devoted Christian, there would be very few things save an eyewitness view of the Big Bang that could change that.

I am strongly opposed to the Big Bang theory and modern evolution. However, I do support Darwin's original idea as stated in The Origin of Species, that animals' genetic makup can adapt, albiet in a minor fashion, to a changing environment in order to keep those kinds of animals alive. I think that it is just another marvelous aspect of God's creation, which He made in SIX DAYS, no more, no less.

I vehemently support the case for Christ, Lord Jesus, and will fight as long as I can to get someone else to believe. Your soul is a very serious thing, nothing you want to toss away flippantly because you think that it's Creator doesn't exist.

Fair enough, but when people witness an historic event, usually more than one witness it at the same time...

More than 500 people witnessed Jesus after his ressurection. Thousands before.

While in the future it may be possible to prove that God exists, it is impossible to prove that God does NOT exist.

Personally I find it better to believe that God exists.

I'll believe its eye witness when you take some photos ;)
Anyway I'm with the No camp on this.

While in the future it may be possible to prove that God exists, it is impossible to prove that God does NOT exist.

Personally I find it better to believe that God exists.

Aye, I agree with you. I just take a much more extreme view. I believe in God, thus I support Him, the truth, with every fiber of my being.

More than 500 people witnessed Jesus after his ressurection. Thousands before.
:rolleyes:

There's no direct evidence though, is there? All we have is a biblical account, which could well be myth.

I'll believe its eye witness when you take some photos ;)
Anyway I'm with the No camp on this.
No... really... :rolleyes: I never would have guessed.

God's creation, which He made in SIX DAYS, no more, no less.

So are you with those fundamentalist Christians that believe Adam and Eve walked along side the dinosaurs?

I'll believe its eye witness when you take some photos ;)
Anyway I'm with the No camp on this.
"no a little more to the left,... there!" takes picture of god.
no harm intended a little joke.

:rolleyes:

There's no direct evidence though, is there? All we have is a biblical account, which could well be myth.
Seeing your political compass, I am tempted not to reply to almost anything you say. I've never seen someone so liberally idealistic.

Never mind, it doesn't matter, I'll be dumb enough to do it anyway.

I am not asking you to believe it because of so and so, nor am I asking you to believe in God because He has "scientific proof" to back up his side. (As a side note, my capability to argue would be nothing compared to God's, you try it sometime. I can garuntee that if you put yourself in a situation where the Devil would have to argue you back into atheism, God would win over.) I am asking you to believe in God because He is true. He, as compared to any other God or any other theory, exists. It would be true to say that the Devil has you well in hand if you need some other reason to believe in God.

Christianity is the truth, and, doubtless, somewhere inside you, you know that perfectly well, and try to reject it.



As a question, who were the people who voted "Don't know" to the poll? How could you not know where you stand on the eternal battlefield?

"no a little more to the left,... there!" takes picture of god.
no harm intended a little joke.

Funny, kind of. Dry humor, if you will.

So are you with those fundamentalist Christians that believe Adam and Eve walked along side the dinosaurs?

Aye.

Seeing your political compass, I am tempted not to reply to almost anything you say. I've never seen someone so liberally idealistic.
LOL. I'm not a "liberal".

Never mind, it doesn't matter, I'll be dumb enough to do it anyway.

I am not asking you to believe it because of so and so, nor am I asking you to believe in God because He has "scientific proof" to back up his side. (As a side note, my capability to argue would be nothing compared to God's, you try it sometime. I can garuntee that if you put yourself in a situation where the Devil would have to argue you back into atheism, God would win over.) I am asking you to believe in God because He is true. He, as compared to any other God or any other theory, exists. It would be true to say that the Devil has you well in hand if you need some other reason to believe in God.

[/b]Christianity is the truth, and, doubtless, somewhere inside you, you know that perfectly well, and try to reject it.[/b]



As a question, who were the people who voted "Don't know" to the poll? How could you not know where you stand on the eternal battlefield? How fucking arrogant.

Seeing your political compass, I am tempted not to reply to almost anything you say. I've never seen someone so liberally idealistic.

Never mind, it doesn't matter, I'll be dumb enough to do it anyway.

I am not asking you to believe it because of so and so, nor am I asking you to believe in God because He has "scientific proof" to back up his side. (As a side note, my capability to argue would be nothing compared to God's, you try it sometime. I can garuntee that if you put yourself in a situation where the Devil would have to argue you back into atheism, God would win over.) I am asking you to believe in God because He is true. He, as compared to any other God or any other theory, exists. It would be true to say that the Devil has you well in hand if you need some other reason to believe in God.

Christianity is the truth, and, doubtless, somewhere inside you, you know that perfectly well, and try to reject it.



As a question, who were the people who voted "Don't know" to the poll? How could you not know where you stand on the eternal battlefield?


There are just as many people who would so firmly stand up for their own religion as well. Whose to say they are any more wrong than you?

Its all just faith until you can actualy see and prove any of it. I could have just as much faith in a God named Dynamite Dues who created this planet because he enjoys watching humans fight each other. In the end you couldn't really prove that to be anymore wrong than any other theory. So I just take the sideline and not agree with any religion. Most have things that I dont like in them anyway while others seem good and harmless enough.

:rolleyes:

There's no direct evidence though, is there? All we have is a biblical account, which could well be myth.


If the early Christians were lying about the resurrection of Christ, why didn't Rome or the Pharasies produce the body to discredit them?

History tells us He existed, so we know at least that much is true. There are a few non-biblical accounts of the rise of Christianity in early years of it, all within 100 years or so of Christs death. Belief in the resurrection involves faith.

Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37–100)

The Annals [historical records] of the Roman historian and governor of Asia, Cornelius Tacitus, written about A.D. 110

An inquiry of the governor of Asia Minor, Plinius Secundus (Pliny the Younger), in his letter to the emperor Trajan (A.D. 111)

Roman historian, Suetonius, in his Life of Claudius (A.D. 100)

The Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law, lore, and commentary.

Damchi

So are you with those fundamentalist Christians that believe Adam and Eve walked along side the dinosaurs?

In more detail, I believe that dinosaurs did exist, but not so long ago as we think. When God made animals, dinosaurs were among them. However, after the Fall, which occured a mere 6000 or so years ago, they began to die out, resulting in the fossils we see today.
Slowly, the dinosaur population began to fall, even the Bible makes references to such animals as the Laviathan, being a humongous sea dinosaur, or dragons and other such things, bieng a reference to other dinosaurs. There are even accounts across the world, in every culture, many of whom had not even made contact with each other, of dragons. Now, I know that the fire-breathing thing is a bit much, but those tales and stories could be easily interpreted into eyewitness, or stories of eyewitness accounts of dinosaurs.

Hunting that ensued of the creatures that had so ravaged their countries happened in the Middle Ages, and, eventually, very few dinosaurs were left alive. Only a handfull exist today.

Funny, kind of. Dry humor, if you will.

im hurt, even god has a sense of humor. why do you think he put men and women together.

If the early Christians were lying about the resurrection of Christ, why didn't Rome or the Pharasies produce the body to discredit them?

History tells us He existed, so we know at least that much is true. There are a few non-biblical accounts of the rise of Christianity in early years of it, all within 100 years or so of Christs death. Belief in the resurrection involves faith.

Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37–100)

The Annals [historical records] of the Roman historian and governor of Asia, Cornelius Tacitus, written about A.D. 110

An inquiry of the governor of Asia Minor, Plinius Secundus (Pliny the Younger), in his letter to the emperor Trajan (A.D. 111)

Roman historian, Suetonius, in his Life of Claudius (A.D. 100)

The Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law, lore, and commentary.

Damchi

Ha ha! Excellent, my friend!

im hurt, even god has a sense of humor. why do you think he put men and women together.

Ha! Hahaha! THAT is funny.

I am sorry if I hurt you at all with the first comment, I just don't take non-constructive humor too well when I'm debating, especially when it's about the topic at hand.

I am asking you to believe in God because He is true. He, as compared to any other God or any other theory, exists. It would be true to say that the Devil has you well in hand if you need some other reason to believe in God.

Christianity is the truth, and, doubtless, somewhere inside you, you know that perfectly well, and try to reject it.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

"ARGUMENT FROM SHEER WILL
(1) I DO believe in God! I DO believe in God! I do I do I do I DO believe in God!
(2) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
(1) Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists -- it's too complicated for you to understand. God exists whether you like it or not.
(2) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM ECONOMY
(1) God exists, you bastards!
(2) Therefore, God exists."

"MITCHELL'S ARGUMENT
(1) The Christian God exists.
(2) Therefore, all worldviews which don't assume the Christian God's existence are false and incomprehensible.
(3) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM HISTORY
(1) The Bible is true.
(2) Therefore, the Bible is historical fact.
(3) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM ARGUMENTATION
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist's counterargument]
(3) Yes he does.
(4) [Atheist's counterargument]
(5) Yes he does!
(6) [Atheist's counterargument]
(7) YES HE DOES!!!
(8) [Atheist gives up and goes home]
(9) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN LOGIC (II)
(1) Atheists say that God doesn't exist.
(2) But they only say that because they want to look cool and intellectual in front of their peers.
(3) They don't fool me!
(4) Therefore, God exists."

If the early Christians were lying about the resurrection of Christ, why didn't Rome or the Pharasies produce the body to discredit them?
Maybe because back then the Christians were just a small crazy cult?

History tells us He existed, so we know at least that much is true. There are a few non-biblical accounts of the rise of Christianity in early years of it, all within 100 years or so of Christs death. Belief in the resurrection involves faith.

Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37–100)

The Annals [historical records] of the Roman historian and governor of Asia, Cornelius Tacitus, written about A.D. 110

An inquiry of the governor of Asia Minor, Plinius Secundus (Pliny the Younger), in his letter to the emperor Trajan (A.D. 111)

Roman historian, Suetonius, in his Life of Claudius (A.D. 100)

The Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law, lore, and commentary.

Damchi
Sure, Jesus may have existed. Do you know what a myth is? It's an historical event, perfectly earthly, that gets exagerrated and turned into something supernatural.

In more detail, I believe that dinosaurs did exist, but not so long ago as we think. When God made animals, dinosaurs were among them. However, after the Fall, which occured a mere 6000 or so years ago, they began to die out, resulting in the fossils we see today.
Slowly, the dinosaur population began to fall, even the Bible makes references to such animals as the Laviathan, being a humongous sea dinosaur, or dragons and other such things, bieng a reference to other dinosaurs. There are even accounts across the world, in every culture, many of whom had not even made contact with each other, of dragons. Now, I know that the fire-breathing thing is a bit much, but those tales and stories could be easily interpreted into eyewitness, or stories of eyewitness accounts of dinosaurs.
Um... right.

Maybe because back then the Christians were just a small crazy cult?

_______________________________

Sure, Jesus may have existed. Do you know what a myth is? It's an historical event, perfectly earthly, that gets exagerrated and turned into something supernatural.

________________________________

Um... right.

I have separated your, ah, arguments with easy-to-follow lines.

1) The Pharisees detested the Christians, and feared their spreading, and thus would have done anything to discredit what they said if it was not true.

2) True, Jesus existed. However, predictions were made about his existence many years before those historians were even born. And their accounts of Jesus, however brief, do make references to parts about his life that were predicted. Eg: "He shall be born in Bethlehem."

3) My opinion, and I stand by it. I'm not sure what happened to the dinosaurs, but there's what I believe. Why would even the Aztecs and the Indians have accounts of dinosaurs (dragons) if they had no contact with Europe, or even China? And, something I forgot to add earlier, the word 'dinosaur' was invented in the mid 1800's.

Tis foolishness, If all were so easy why none would suffer in this world.
argueing about if god is real or not when both sides are already so sure of themselves that they wont listen to each other.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

"ARGUMENT FROM SHEER WILL
(1) I DO believe in God! I DO believe in God! I do I do I do I DO believe in God!
(2) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
(1) Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists -- it's too complicated for you to understand. God exists whether you like it or not.
(2) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM ECONOMY
(1) God exists, you bastards!
(2) Therefore, God exists."

"MITCHELL'S ARGUMENT
(1) The Christian God exists.
(2) Therefore, all worldviews which don't assume the Christian God's existence are false and incomprehensible.
(3) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM HISTORY
(1) The Bible is true.
(2) Therefore, the Bible is historical fact.
(3) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM ARGUMENTATION
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist's counterargument]
(3) Yes he does.
(4) [Atheist's counterargument]
(5) Yes he does!
(6) [Atheist's counterargument]
(7) YES HE DOES!!!
(8) [Atheist gives up and goes home]
(9) Therefore, God exists."

"ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN LOGIC (II)
(1) Atheists say that God doesn't exist.
(2) But they only say that because they want to look cool and intellectual in front of their peers.
(3) They don't fool me!
(4) Therefore, God exists."

All I can say is that I am grateful, despite the fact that you are an asshole, that you have put one of my quotes in your signature.

In more detail, I believe that dinosaurs did exist, but not so long ago as we think. When God made animals, dinosaurs were among them. However, after the Fall, which occured a mere 6000 or so years ago, they began to die out, resulting in the fossils we see today.
Slowly, the dinosaur population began to fall, even the Bible makes references to such animals as the Laviathan, being a humongous sea dinosaur, or dragons and other such things, bieng a reference to other dinosaurs. There are even accounts across the world, in every culture, many of whom had not even made contact with each other, of dragons. Now, I know that the fire-breathing thing is a bit much, but those tales and stories could be easily interpreted into eyewitness, or stories of eyewitness accounts of dinosaurs.

Hunting that ensued of the creatures that had so ravaged their countries happened in the Middle Ages, and, eventually, very few dinosaurs were left alive. Only a handfull exist today.

A handful exist today? ... like say the lochness monster? :P

So where did you pull that 6000 number? I mean even little things like the Mesopotamians invented irrigation around 5400 bc kind of wants to discredit you there.

Tis foolishness, If all were so easy why none would suffer in this world.
argueing about if god is real or not when both sides are already so sure of themselves that they wont listen to each other.

Mmm hmm. True.
I'll just say that people suffer because God is not there. God is, quite literally, good, and, thus, an absence of God would be bad.

A handful exist today? ... like say the lochness monster? :P

So where did you pull that 6000 number? I mean even little things like the Mesopotamians invented irrigation around 5400 bc kind of wants to discredit you there.

6100 something comes directly from numbers in the Bible. According to chronological accounts, combined with what knowledge we have today of years (Abraham's birth is the first solid date in my Bible), add up the 2000 AD, and you get 6117 (I think).

Oh yes, and mayhap the Loch Ness Monster, if it is real, could be one of the few species of 'dinosaurs' that has managed to still be alive today.
Other samples were found, say, while fishing on the coast in western Africa, a "perfectly preserved specimin" of that one large paddling, seabound dinosaur with the huge neck (I forgot its name) was found washed up on the beach. How would the corpse have been intact for so long if it was in the sea. Even after a few years, it would have been gone.

Also, according to accounts of travelers in the Sahara, a carcass was found lying on the sand, it even still had a leathery feel to it. It, apparently, was too large to be any earthly animal, and was clearly freshly killed, probably taken down by the elements. There is a picture somewhere in my computer, I would just have to find it.

I have separated your, ah, arguments with easy-to-follow lines.You don't have a leg to stand on, don't be condescending.

1) The Pharisees detested the Christians, and feared their spreading, and thus would have done anything to discredit what they said if it was not true. That has no bearing on anything I said.

2) True, Jesus existed. However, predictions were made about his existence many years before those historians were even born. And their accounts of Jesus, however brief, do make references to parts about his life that were predicted. Eg: "He shall be born in Bethlehem." Meh, how do you know about them? Through the bible. How convenient... And lots of Nostradamus' prophecies have "come true." They're do tend to if they're vague enough.

3) My opinion, and I stand by it. I'm not sure what happened to the dinosaurs, but there's what I believe. Why would even the Aztecs and the Indians have accounts of dinosaurs (dragons) if they had no contact with Europe, or even China? And, something I forgot to add earlier, the word 'dinosaur' was invented in the mid 1800's.
There being a dragon myth proves nothing. And care to explain why the fossils of prehistoric humans, and dinosaurs are found in such different rock strata? Of course the word was invented. We need to invent words for things we can't adequately describe. Big fuckin whoop.

All I can say is that I am grateful, despite the fact that you are an asshole, that you have put one of my quotes in your signature.
Vespucii, past encounters do not grant present license to flame. Knock it off, now.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

Maybe because back then the Christians were just a small crazy cult? Sure, Jesus may have existed. Do you know what a myth is? It's an historical event, perfectly earthly, that gets exagerrated and turned into something supernatural.

So you have 100's of people (if not thousands) executed for their belief in a myth that was started by a small crazy cult, including the men who knew Him before the resurrection. Rome might have viewed Christianity as a small crazy cult, but the Jews did not. They were very strict when it came to heresy by claiming to be "One with God" and the "Son" of God. Saul of Tarsus (who became Paul) was a very devout Jew and pharisee in training at that time. He was involved in the imprisonment and execution of many early Christains before his conversion. He then not only became a man who taught Christianity to the nations throughout the Roman Empire, he was executed for it. It is very presumptious to think these men who walked with Christ and Paul afterwards would allow themselves to be executed for a falsehood they perpetuated.



Um... right.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp

Damchi

You don't have a leg to stand on, don't be condescending.

That has no bearing on anything I said.

Yah, it does.

Meh, how do you know about them? Through the bible. How convenient... And lots of Nostradamus' prophecies have "come true." They're do tend to if they're vague enough.

Prophecies in the Bible range from the vague ("The snake shall bruise his heel, but he shall crush it's head) to the uncomparatively specific ("The Savior shall be of the line of David), or even more specific ("He [In reference to the promised Messiah, as the rest of the flippin' chapter does.] shall be born in Bethlehem."


There being a dragon myth proves nothing. And care to explain why the fossils of prehistoric humans, and dinosaurs are found in such different rock strata? Of course the word was invented. We need to invent words for things we can't adequately describe. Big fuckin whoop.

See my edit of my earlier post.

Would you agree that your God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent?

So you have 100's of people (if not thousands) executed for their belief in a myth that was started by a small crazy cult, including the men who knew Him before the resurrection. Rome might have viewed Christianity as a small crazy cult, but the Jews did not. They were very strict when it came to heresy by claiming to be "One with God" and the "Son" of God. Saul of Tarsus (who became Paul) was a very devout Jew and pharisee in training at that time. He was involved in the imprisonment and execution of many early Christains before his conversion. He then not only became a man who taught Christianity to the nations throughout the Roman Empire, he was executed for it. It is very presumptious to think these men who walked with Christ and Paul afterwards would allow themselves to be executed for a falsehood they perpetuated. Thanks for that little story... I don't think it' presumptuous at all. People die for all sorts of things.



Um... right.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp

Damchi
I'd rather take science as evidence than some Christian website, thanks.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp

Damchi

Really! Someone actually supports my theory besides me! Cool!

I'd rather take science as evidence than some Christian website, thanks.

I believe it was you (or it could have been Fass) who gave me a soundly Atheist website as credit against my own arguments.

I'd rather take science as evidence than some Christian website, thanks.


And yet Christians are the ones that are called closed minded.

:headbang:

Damchi

Oh! You like dat!
I'd rather take science as evidence than some Christian website, thanks
Are dinosaurs alive today?
Where Jurassic Park went wrong!
by Robert Doolan

While movie mogul Steven Spielberg prepared for the premiere of his US$50 million blockbuster dinosaur film Jurassic Park in early 1993, equally spectacular dinosaur-type news was flowing in from around the world.

From China there were claims that more than 1,000 people had seen a dinosaur-like monster in two sightings around Sayram Lake in Xinjiang.1

From Scotland came the latest Loch Ness monster sighting: Mrs Edna MacInnes reported on June 24 that she had seen a 15-metre-long creature with a neck like a giraffe in Loch Ness.2

From Canada, Professor P. LeBlond of the University of British Columbia told a meeting of zoologists about the many sightings of ‘Caddy’—short for Cadborosaurus—around the British Columbia coast and as far south as Oregon. The remains of a three-metre juvenile ‘Caddy’ have actually been found in the stomach of a whale.3

It’s been a big year for monsters. Russian scientists were startled to find remains of dwarf mammoths on Wrangel Island, off the Siberian coast, which they said were living only 3,700 years ago.4 And British explorer Colonel John Blashford-Snell returned from an isolated Nepalese valley in March with photos of living creatures which looked something like mammoths or extinct stegodons.5

Whether it’s Spielberg or stegodons, ‘Nessie’ or ‘Caddy’—dinosaurs and such creatures are on news reports and in conversations everywhere. And because most people have heard only the evolutionary viewpoint about these creatures, it is important that Christians know how to respond to the evolutionary comments.

Take Jurassic Park for instance. The plot revolves around a quirky billionaire who sets out to recreate dinosaurs from DNA extracted from a blood-sucking insect which had dined on dinosaur and had then been trapped in amber (fossilized tree resin).

Dinosaurs are then genetically recreated for the tycoon’s dinosaur theme park. But the dinosaurs break out of control, escape from the park, and start feasting on passing vehicles.

People around the world have been asking if scientists could really resurrect these robust reptiles from DNA extracted from a preserved insect allegedly more than 100 million years old.

The answer is No!

Despite the hype, Jurassic Park is fiction. Scientists have not yet found dinosaur DNA in any amber-preserved insects. But if they did, even evolutionists admit that the DNA, a notoriously unstable molecule, would be too degraded to carry a complete dinosaur genetic blueprint.6

In fact, Oxford molecular biologist Bryan Sykes admitted in the journal Nature that the rate at which DNA breaks down in the laboratory is such that ‘no DNA would remain intact much beyond 10,000 years.’7

That is enough to kill the theory. But, in addition, reconstructing the genetic blueprint of an extinct creature poses seemingly insurmountable problems. Molecular geneticist Russell Higuchi compares the task to ‘finding an encyclopaedia ripped into shreds and written in a language you barely comprehend, and having to reassemble it in the dark, without using your hands.’8

About four million fragments would have to be linked in the correct order—without knowing what that order was!

So, despite what you hear about multi-million-year-old insects being found, DNA in them means the insect can be only thousands of years old at most. And how to bring the creature back to life is something science today has no idea how to do—a fact overlooked in Jurassic Park.

Dinosaur sightings
But could real dinosaurs be living today? What about all the reported sightings? If dinosaurs died out more than 60 million years ago, as evolutionists propose, then there can’t be any convincing evidence for their living today, or even in recent times.

Yet fresh, unfossilized dinosaur bones have been found. In 1987, a young Inuit (Canadian Eskimo), working with scientists from Memorial University, Newfoundland (Canada), on Bylot Island, found a bone which was identified as part of a lower jaw of a duckbill dinosaur.9

In 1981, scientists identified dinosaur bones which had been found in Alaska 20 years earlier. The bones had been so fresh that the geologist who had found them thought at first they must have been bison bones. They have now been identified as belonging to horned dinosaurs, duckbill dinosaurs, and small carnivorous dinosaurs.10

Bones, of course, don’t stay fresh very long—certainly not for millions of years. These discoveries clearly indicate that dinosaurs were around recently.

It is possible too that some of those huge flying reptiles, the pterosaurs, also survived Noah’s Flood and lived into recent times. The Illustrated London News of February 9, 1856 (p. 166) reported that workmen digging a railway tunnel in France last century disturbed a huge winged creature at Culmont, in Haute Marne, while blasting rock for the tunnel.

The creature was described as livid black, with a long neck and sharp teeth. It looked like a bat, and its skin was thick and oily. It died soon after. Its wingspan was measured at 3.22 metres (10 feet 7 inches). A naturalist ‘immediately recognised it as belonging to the genus Pterodactylus anas’, and it matched the remains of known pterodactyl fossils.

American Indians have stories of creatures they call ‘thunderbirds’, the description of which resembles that of a pterosaur. It is possible that the reason they can describe and draw these creatures is because their ancestors saw them.

Less conclusive perhaps, but not necessarily to be dismissed, are modern claims of sightings of dinosaur-type creatures. Yet even among these there seem to be credible witnesses.

Some scientific attempts to verify the existence of dinosaurs today have centred around the remote jungles of the Republic of the Congo, in central western Africa.

Several scientific expeditions have taken place there, with the help and sponsorship of the Congolese Government, in an effort to verify reports of previously unidentified animals. One of these animals, known to the local natives as Mokele-mbembe, fits the description of a small plant-eating dinosaur.

Biologist Dr Roy P. Mackal, from the University of Chicago, has led some of these trips through the harsh, humid, swampy environment of the Congo. He has written a book about his excursions, which includes summaries from other researchers who have been on expeditions to the Congo’s Likouala region.11

New species identified
Mackal says that a giant turtle and a monkey-eating bird have been identified with some certainty as living in the Likouala swamps. An unknown species of large crocodile also seems to inhabit the area.

If this is where things were left, there would be general agreement that these are exciting discoveries for science, and that more research would be worthwhile. But Dr Mackal also reports sightings of other unidentified creatures, including Mokele-mbembe, which he is fairly convinced is a small sauropod dinosaur.

This is where less open-minded scientists switch off. But Mackal has support from other scientists and researchers who say they have seen evidence of Mokele-mbembe on their expeditions. Some have been on these nerve-racking dinosaur hunts several times. As Mackal says, he would ‘not endure extreme hardship and danger, even risk my life, to pursue a dream with no basis in reality.’

Biologist Marcellin Agnagna is another trained scientist who officially reported seeing Mokele-mbembe. He said that on May 1, 1983, he and members of his party came across a Mokele-mbembe in the Congo’s remote Lake Tele.12 It had a wide back, a long neck, and a small head. The front of it was brown, and its back appeared black. It was in the shallow water of the lake, and the length visible above the waterline was about five metres (16 feet).

Agnagna said, ‘It can be said with certainty that the animal we saw was Mokele-mbembe, that it was quite alive, and, furthermore, that it is known to many inhabitants of the Likouala region.’

It is therefore possible that at least one type of dinosaur may be living today. If it is indisputably accepted after further investigation, it would not be the first time that creatures which evolutionists had thought had died out millions of years ago have actually been found alive.

But it is important to distinguish between fantasy, feasibility, and fact.

Jurassic Park, though seemingly based on high-tech real science, is fantasy. Tests show that DNA would not last much more than 10,000 years, certainly not millions; reconstructing the genetic blueprint of such long-gone creatures is overwhelmingly complex and is probably impossible; and getting life back into those molecules or cells is something which science today has no idea how to do.

The feasibility of the idea that some dinosaurs may still be alive has a little more support, although at this time we would have to say it is not conclusive.

The fact, however, is that creationists are in a better position than evolutionists on these matters. Whether you consider the DNA aspect or the fresh dinosaur bones aspect, the evolutionary idea of millions of years does not look credible.

And when you consider the complexity involved in the genetic code—and that the fossil record shows no dinosaur evolution—the God-honouring conviction that dinosaurs and all other life came about through supernatural creation looks very convincing indeed.

I believe it was you (or it could have been Fass) who gave me a soundly Atheist website as credit against my own arguments.
No, I didn't. Although would you then discredit scientific sources as atheist?

And you ignored my point that the prophecies you meantion are in the BIBLE, which is the Christian text. It would suit the writers to have that text in there, no?

Really! Someone actually supports my theory besides me! Cool!

AiG is a pretty cool site that uses science and the Bible together. If your a young earth believer, there is some neat stuff to read on there on all sorts of subjects.


Damchi

No, I didn't. Although would you then discredit scientific sources as atheist?

And you ignored my point that the prophecies you meantion are in the BIBLE, which is the Christian text. It would suit the writers to have that text in there, no?

See the Dead Sea Scrolls, proven to be more than a thousand years older than Jesus is supposed to be, contained prophecies of His coming.

If there is as god then we should be fearful...

That's a fact... If that sick bastard would come back to check on us, we'd be screwed :S... :mp5: :gundge: :sniper:

Good thing there isn't a God... God is a fantasy, made up to scare childeren & "sinners"...

AiG is a pretty cool site that uses science and the Bible together. If your a young earth believer, there is some neat stuff to read on there on all sorts of subjects.


Damchi

Okay, I'll keep it. Although I already got like a thousand bookmarks anyway.

And yet Christians are the ones that are called closed minded.

:headbang:

Damchi
:rolleyes: It's NOT about closed-mindedness, it's about opening your eyes to logic, science and ALL the evidence.

That's a fact... If that sick bastard would come back to check on us, we'd be screwed :S... :mp5: :gundge: :sniper:

Good thing there isn't a God... God is a fantasy, made up to scare childeren & "sinners"...

Don't wory, He'll be comin' back. Not quite sure when, but I can garuntee what'll happen when He does.

:rolleyes: It's NOT about closed-mindedness, it's about opening your eyes to logic, science and ALL the evidence.

Forgive the language, but that is UTTER BULLSHIT :headbang: !!!

You politely ignore the evidence that is from your own side, science, that proves the other side. Wheras you have almost no evidence from our side, the Bible, to prove your own.

If there really were a god, he/she/it surely wouldn't punish us by bombarding us with day-after-day of these threads... the devil himself isn't even that cruel.

:rolleyes: It's NOT about closed-mindedness, it's about opening your eyes to logic, science and ALL the evidence.


But you refuse to even look at evidence that could answer the question you asked in a way you don't want to hear it. That my friend, is being closed minded. ALL the evidence includes the stuff that might change your way of thinking.

Damchi

If there really were a god, he/she/it surely wouldn't punish us by bombarding us with day-after-day of these threads...
I, personally, like the threads. They give me an opportunity to debate for God's side, and it is perfect practice for when I LEAVE HIGH SCHOOL. You hear that Preebles? You're being beat down in a debate by a FRESHMAN!!!

See the Dead Sea Scrolls, proven to be more than a thousand years older than Jesus is supposed to be, contained prophecies of His coming.

Proved? By who? What makes them anymore right than those who don't agree on dinosaurs being only 6000 years old? What about the continental split and all the aqautic lifeforms that came before dinasaurs and then evolved into land dwelling animals who then evolved into dinosaurs. I think the problem here is you envision evolution as happening overnight, when it takes millions of years.

Unless God is Coyote, or Loki, or some other trickster god. Then, this would be right up his alley.

But there is only one true God...

He is Hugo the Divine Eternal Platypus, and I am His prophet.

I, personally, like the threads. They give me an opportunity to debate for God's side, and it is perfect practice for when I LEAVE HIGH SCHOOL. You hear that Preebles? You're being beat down in a debate by a FRESHMAN!!!
Actually, I'm not being beaten. You haven't given me ANY credible evidence. But here, I'll leave you to feed your ego... :rolleyes: I'm sick of "arguing" with someone who just blocks his ears and repeats anecdotes.

yep

1 Wayy too much design-work seen in things around us

2 This topic keeps popping up on this forum

Proved? By who? What makes them anymore right than those who don't agree on dinosaurs being only 6000 years old? What about the continental split and all the aqautic lifeforms that came before dinasaurs and then evolved into land dwelling animals who then evolved into dinosaurs. I think the problem here is you envision evolution as happening overnight, when it takes millions of years.

Dinosaurs have no fossilized records of evolving. And the Dead Sea Scrolls were proved to be thouands of years old using the same methods that you use to discredit our ideals (AKA C-14 dating).

Oh yes, and what about the continental drift? What about the 'evolved life forms?' You seem to be talking about them, so please elaborate.

Actually, I'm not being beaten. You haven't given me ANY credible evidence. But here, I'll leave you to feed your ego... :rolleyes: I'm sick of "arguing" with someone who just blocks his ears and repeats anecdotes.

Oh, come now child. You know as well as I d that I have offered a good enough argument, while all you can do is a typical hippie leftist swerve around them.

Proved? By who? What makes them anymore right than those who don't agree on dinosaurs being only 6000 years old? What about the continental split and all the aqautic lifeforms that came before dinasaurs and then evolved into land dwelling animals who then evolved into dinosaurs. I think the problem here is you envision evolution as happening overnight, when it takes millions of years.


That is an unproven and unsubstantiated theory that your trying to play off as fact. While adaptation has been observed, the genetic mutation of one species to another has not.


Damchi

I recognize that there's the possibility of the existance of a god, in other words....I don't know.

Unless God is Coyote, or Loki, or some other trickster god. Then, this would be right up his alley.

But there is only one true God...

He is Hugo the Divine Eternal Platypus, and I am His prophet.

Bite me.

yep
1 Wayy too much design-work seen in things around us



Wayy too much VERY POOR design, you mean. Everything from the Universe itself down to the human body is TERRIBLY inefficiently put-together.

99.999999999999% of the universe is immediately fatal to "God's Chosen Species" (TM). Does that sound even the slightest bit wise?

I recognize that there's the possibility of the existance of a god, in other words....I don't know.

Alright then. You're teetering on the edge here. One false step and God could lose you for eternity.

Bite me.

Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

Hugo says you are a bad'n. Dost thou wish smiteification?

My view on God:

He does exist. He is a scary, scary person. He is literally the judge of this existence. He could shower us with gifts, or he could smite us with the celestial fly swatter, for I believe that God is powerful enough to do anything.

Why do I believe in God? Look at this world. Look at this universe. See anything strange about it?

I do. It's too damn orderly, and not nearly random enough. Events take place in most opportune or inopportune times. There are a few random events, but some are just TOO convenient.

Look at the Earth, for example. If you go by modern science, you would believe that we all started out in a big bang, that life was brought to Earth by a sequence of events, that Earth had to be in an exact same orbit in an exact same time the sun is at an exact same temperature with an exact same gas giant planet that sucks up the astroids that should have whacked existence on Earth as we know it a long time ago... etc. And yet somehow this little blue ball of a planet has just enough water, just enough oceans, enough deserts, forests, lakes and plains to sustain life.

Sustaining life involves a very fragile balance. I wish I could get into more detail, but I can't, honest.

But what I do gather is that this fragile balance is very hard to achieve, maybe even impossible to duplicate. So many little things have to all come together, from large details to ones so mundane and small that even all the world's 160+ IQ populace brainstorming at once could miss.

And odds are, one of those small details should have been kiboshed by now. But they weren't. Why?

That is the question that leads me to believe in God. Too many neat, orderly sequences that should have gone wrong in this universe... yet we are still here. I think somebody is watching over us, like a kid tending to one big ant colony.

If the early Christians were lying about the resurrection of Christ, why didn't Rome or the Pharasies produce the body to discredit them?

History tells us He existed, so we know at least that much is true. There are a few non-biblical accounts of the rise of Christianity in early years of it, all within 100 years or so of Christs death. Belief in the resurrection involves faith.

Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37–100)

The Annals [historical records] of the Roman historian and governor of Asia, Cornelius Tacitus, written about A.D. 110

An inquiry of the governor of Asia Minor, Plinius Secundus (Pliny the Younger), in his letter to the emperor Trajan (A.D. 111)

Roman historian, Suetonius, in his Life of Claudius (A.D. 100)

The Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law, lore, and commentary.

Damchi

I wonder, are you familiar with the story of Saint Genevieve?

Probably not. But in 520 AD, several years after her death, an unknown monk recorded the life of this amazing woman, said to have healed people, defeated demons, levitated ships, calmed storms... much along the lines of what we are told Jesus did. Yet few people are familiar with this story, and I doubt anybody actually believes it. Why should they? And why should we believe that Jesus rose from the dead? The evidence we have simply isn't good enough - we have it only from pro-Christian sources, we can't be sure of how long after the event/s the accounts were written [experts seem to think some where in the vicinity of a decade after], we do not know for certain the names of any of the authors, further more, of the witnesses, some later denied everything.

There is no reason to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. There is as much evidence for that as there is for alien bodies having been recovered from the Roswell incident.

Oh, come now child. You know as well as I d that I have offered a good enough argument, while all you can do is a typical hippie leftist swerve around them.
Again ith the condescension?

You DID not offer a good argument. And you saying it is so it NOT good enough. I have offered up points, and you have disregarded them.

And now you call me names, put labels on me, and stereotype me? Real mature and a mark of intelligent agrument huh?

Goodbye.

Wayy too much VERY POOR design, you mean. Everything from the Universe itself down to the human body is TERRIBLY inefficiently put-together.

99.999999999999% of the universe is immediately fatal to "God's Chosen Species" (TM). Does that sound even the slightest bit wise?

99.999999999999%? Where'd you get that number.

And you know perfectly well that the fact that you can even debate here and come up with numbers like that is unparalleled design of the highest degree. And there's more. Replication of DNA, adaptation, molecules held together perfectly, skin itself is perfectly designed. Atoms going down to a quantum level, and existing in up to eleven dimensions. Huge burning balls of fire with the capacity to shed beautiful light on us for billions of years, using one of the most efficient forms of energy production possible. You say it's poor design? I call it beautiful!

Again ith the condescension?

You DID not offer a good argument. And you saying it is so it NOT good enough. I have offered up points, and you have disregarded them.

And now you call me names, put labels on me, and stereotype me? Real mature and a mark of intelligent agrument huh?

Goodbye.

Please, for the sake of a reasonable debate, repeat to me the points that you have brought up that I have been unable to provide a rebuttal to.

Fair enough, but when people witness an historic event, usually more than one witness it at the same time...

A lot of supernatural events have been witnessed by large gatherings, that is something you will still see today in all of the major religions. Anyway my point is that there is more than enough “evidence” to raise doubts about the none existence of God, in effect making atheism every bit as belief oriented as any faith (in this case, a belief of disbelief). My argument is that Agnosticism is the rational and logical choice for a person without any personal experience, and that an openminded (opposed to fundamentalism) venture into religion can be a rational step in case of personal experiences.

Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

Hugo says you are a bad'n. Dost thou wish smiteification?
Thanky you for bringing laughter to a thread that was getting ludicrous... :D

Don't wory, He'll be comin' back. Not quite sure when, but I can garuntee what'll happen when He does.

Will it be like John 3:16?

John 3:16:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

King James Version, my emphasis.

Is omnibenevolent God really going to do that? If so, I'll dispute the omnibenevolence. And neither would I worship such a God, whether He exists or not (there we go! We've now got Christianity, Agnosticism, Atheism, and resfusing point-blank.)

Forgive the language, but that is UTTER BULLSHIT :headbang: !!!

You politely ignore the evidence that is from your own side, science, that proves the other side. Wheras you have almost no evidence from our side, the Bible, to prove your own.

What evidence?

My view on God:

Look at the Earth, for example. If you go by modern science, you would believe that we all started out in a big bang, that life was brought to Earth by a sequence of events, that Earth had to be in an exact same orbit in an exact same time the sun is at an exact same temperature with an exact same gas giant planet that sucks up the astroids that should have whacked existence on Earth as we know it a long time ago... etc. And yet somehow this little blue ball of a planet has just enough water, just enough oceans, enough deserts, forests, lakes and plains to sustain life.

Actually, if you go by "modern science" Then it would have HAD to happen somewhere, eventually. The universe is really frickin' HUGE. We're talking 2X10^26 stars, minimum. (that's a 2 followed by 26 zeroes.) Even with "one in a billion" odds against it, that means millions of Earths.

Life has a tendency to find a way to live. Look up the subject of "extremeophiles." The conditions for life aren't as delicate as they appear to be.

Alright then. You're teetering on the edge here. One false step and God could lose you for eternity.
Well we'll never for sure until after we're dead. So until then I think I'm going to remain in the "middleground" unless something amazing and totally unexplainable happens to me.

Please, for the sake of a reasonable debate, repeat to me the points that you have brought up that I have been unable to provide a rebuttal to.
How about you actually read the thread?

I'll throw you a bone. Here's one. If humans and dinosaurs coexisted, why are fossils of humans and dinosaurs found in drastically different rock strata?

I wonder, are you familiar with the story of Saint Genevieve?

Probably not. But in 520 AD, several years after her death, an unknown monk recorded the life of this amazing woman, said to have healed people, defeated demons, levitated ships, calmed storms... much along the lines of what we are told Jesus did. Yet few people are familiar with this story, and I doubt anybody actually believes it. Why should they? And why should we believe that Jesus rose from the dead? The evidence we have simply isn't good enough - we have it only from pro-Christian sources, we can't be sure of how long after the event/s the accounts were written [experts seem to think some where in the vicinity of a decade after], we do not know for certain the names of any of the authors, further more, of the witnesses, some later denied everything.

There is no reason to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. There is as much evidence for that as there is for alien bodies having been recovered from the Roswell incident.

I have decided to do research on your claim, as is wise to do when someone presents an extreme argument, and I shall do so since someone presented me with a cock-and-bull story of the Myth of Horus, which was nowhere near the real story.


When she was seven years old, Genevieve met Saint Germanus of Auxerre on his way to England. Germain befriended her because of her insistence on wanting to live her life for God, and prophesied her future sanctity. Took the veil at age 15. Prophesied invasions and disasters for Paris. Could read consciences and calm the possessed. When Paris was besieged by the Franks, she encouraged its defense, organized prayers for God's protection of the city, and led an expedition for food to relieve the seige. Caused a church to be built on the tomb of Saint Denis. In 1129, the procession of her relics through Paris is believed to have ended an epidemic.

Well we'll never for sure until after we're dead. So until then I think I'm going to remain in the "middleground" unless something amazing and totally unexplainable happens to me.

After you're dead, then it's WAY too late, buddy. Best stick with what could be the truth then throw away your soul.

yes, of course i believe in good.

How about you actually read the thread?

I'll throw you a bone. Here's one. If humans and dinosaurs coexisted, why are fossils of humans and dinosaurs found in drastically different rock strata?

Quite possibly because of varying elevations? Just maybe? Say a dinosaur existed before the flood on top of a hill, and a human existed in a valley next to it. The human is then lower than the dinosaur.

After you're dead, then it's WAY too late, buddy. Best stick with what could be the truth then throw away your soul.

Worst. Reason. Ever to be religious. Surely God can see that you're only going through the motions to save your arse?

Again ith the condescension?

You DID not offer a good argument. And you saying it is so it NOT good enough. I have offered up points, and you have disregarded them.

And now you call me names, put labels on me, and stereotype me? Real mature and a mark of intelligent agrument huh?

Goodbye.


Sorry Preebles, I hate when a conversation turns to name calling and personal attacks. I do hope that when you look at what you believe you will look at all the evidence, and not just one side of it. This could have been an interesting thread, but its pretty much shot downhill from the past few pages.

Damchi

PAGANS! :eek:

Quite possibly because of varying elevations? Just maybe? Say a dinosaur existed before the flood on top of a hill, and a human existed in a valley next to it. The human is then lower than the dinosaur.
Not scientific. Sorry. Bring me a journal or something.

Thanky you for bringing laughter to a thread that was getting ludicrous... :D


All these threads are ludicrous, for one simple, obvious reason:

Only the ignorant man presumes that he is wise. The truly wise man is aware of, and humbled by, the fact that he is ignorant.

Dinosaurs have no fossilized records of evolving. And the Dead Sea Scrolls were proved to be thouands of years old using the same methods that you use to discredit our ideals (AKA C-14 dating).

Oh yes, and what about the continental drift? What about the 'evolved life forms?' You seem to be talking about them, so please elaborate.

Well as for the continental drift, the jurassic period where africa and south america were still joined was nearly 135 million years ago. This is also why we find similar fossils on each continent, I mean surely you don't just expect some dinasaur to jump on a boat and sail across the atalantic? :P Or did God create the world so that Pangaea was still together and then just broke it apart overnight? :P That would be really destructive, even tiny shifts have huge effects as we saw in asia recently.

Will it be like John 3:16?

John 3:16:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

King James Version, my emphasis.

Is omnibenevolent God really going to do that? If so, I'll dispute the omnibenevolence. And neither would I worship such a God, whether He exists or not (there we go! We've now got Christianity, Agnosticism, Atheism, and resfusing point-blank.)

Have you read the verses that say that He is not willing that ANY should perish?
It is, thus, our choice weather or not we want to go to hell.
If I showed you two doors, saying that one holds behind it an infinite number of scorpions, snakes, and other poisonous animals that would not quite kill you, but their bites would torture you for the rest of your life. Then I said that the second door contains behind it an enormous banquet, with people you love, the food you love, and your very own family and friends.
Which door would you choose. Some choose the first door, while others say that the doors don't exist, and are invariably led towards the first one.

I recommend: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/resurrection/index.shtml

While some wil realize that a benevolent, omnipotent god-as-advertised would never have allowed both doors to exist in the first place.

The concepts of a benevolent, loving God, and an eternal, tortuous Hell are completely incompatible and irreconcilable.

To both the religious and non religious factions out here...

GROW THE HELL UP! :mad:

Athiests, stop trolling for arguments. Stop demanding the religious faction to give absolute truth. Anything they do tell you will never... NEVER be complete enough for you to be satisfied, so stop asking! Stop trying to make the religious people look like idiots, sound like idiots, and don't try to sound so smug because you think you know it all and it's cross referenced... because you don't! Even evolution has holes in it, thereby requiring just as much faith as religion to believe!

Religious, stop getting lured into their arguments. Stop getting red faced when they put the pressure on you. SHow you have superior character for a change! And you know that they will get defensive when you remind them that they are risking their souls (abiet, though you try to say it in a more subtle, but just as damaging way), so don't. It'll stop many flame wars this way. If they don't want to hear it, fine. Write them off. They're on their own. It's free will, that thing God gave us all, so let them use their free will to not believe God's existence.

There, that sums it up. I expect no quotes. I only expect you all to impliment what I said.

Well as for the continental drift, the jurassic period where africa and south america were still joined was nearly 135 million years ago. This is also why we find similar fossils on each continent, I mean surely you don't just expect some dinasaur to jump on a boat and sail across the atalantic? :P Or did God create the world so that Pangaea was still together and then just broke it apart overnight? :P That would be really destructive, even tiny shifts have huge effects as we saw in asia recently.

Actually, that could have happened, but God probably didn't slam those continents together. The Bible makes a reference to scattering mankind across the Earth, after the Tower of Babel incident: "From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the earth." Genesis 11:9.
The people would not have willingly moved, right? So, God probably split the continents apart, seeing as mankind had already spread so far.

To both the religious and non religious factions out here...

GROW THE HELL UP! :mad:

Athiests, stop trolling for arguments. Stop demanding the religious faction to give absolute truth. Anything they do tell you will never... NEVER be complete enough for you to be satisfied, so stop asking! Stop trying to make the religious people look like idiots, sound like idiots, and don't try to sound so smug because you think you know it all and it's cross referenced... because you don't! Even evolution has holes in it, thereby requiring just as much faith as religion to believe!


It weren't the irreligious what started this thread, monkeyboy.

he has got a point. if those pagans and heritics chooses to go to hell, then so be it

While some wil realize that a benevolent, omnipotent god-as-advertised would never have allowed both doors to exist in the first place.

The concepts of a benevolent, loving God, and an eternal, tortuous Hell are completely incompatible and irreconcilable.

Getting into heaven is easy, however, hell exists because people actually choose an eternal torture over an eternity in submission to God. However pleasurable such a submission may be.

As answer to the question of the topic:

No way in hell. I haven't seen anything that makes me want to believe in this oh so great sadistic bastard of a god.

Do you believe in God?


Which one? define please

Inbreedia this is a debate thread :P thats the whole point. I don't take any offence here and I hope the other side doesnt either. I like the hear their views although nothing they have said so far really convinces me of anything.

First of two brings up a good point though, an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god cannot exsist. Not in our world. Unless he's just lazy and doesn't care.

I recommend: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/resurrection/index.shtml

So it was YOU who showed me that website! That is so freakin' gay.

Actually, that could have happened, but God probably didn't slam those continents together. The Bible makes a reference to scattering mankind across the Earth, after the Tower of Babel incident: "From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the earth." Genesis 11:9.
The people would not have willingly moved, right? So, God probably split the continents apart, seeing as mankind had already spread so far.

Such actions, occurring during the relatively short span of human history would have had 2 obvious results.

#1. The effects would have been so observable that there naver would have been any question as to whether the continents were moving.

#2. The tectonic effects would have caused earthquakes so large and so constant that human covilization could never have advanced at all.. our primitive homes would have always been falling on us and killing anyone who lived indoors.

It weren't the irreligious what started this thread, monkeyboy.

That's beside the point. You just illustrated mine.

he has got a point. if those pagans and heritics chooses to go to hell, then so be it

Again, proved my point.

Everyone here is acting less than civil. I suggest you all should restore order.

Honestly... monkeyboy? That's low.

So by that same logic we don't know whether Santa exists or not?
we know santa exists. (i am joking) nah gods a load of rubbish to keep people controlled

Even evolution has holes in it, thereby requiring just as much faith as religion to believe!

Um, evolution has LOADS of evidence. Just because it's a theory doesn't mean it's based on blind faith, which religion is.

God has not been proven to not exist. But he has not been proven TO exist either, so therefore, he must not exist.
That also aplies for Einstines Gravity, the Atomic theory,and alot of other stuff that 99.999999999999999...% of people belive to be true.
And my answer, yes.

Getting into heaven is easy, however, hell exists because people actually choose an eternal torture over an eternity in submission to God. However pleasurable such a submission may be.

What kind of benevolent God would even allow such a choice to come into existence?

Um, evolution has LOADS of evidence. Just because it's a theory doesn't mean it's based on blind faith, which religion is.

And yet, the death of Christ had eyewitness testimony, and documentation. And still there are naysayers.

What kind of benevolent God would even allow such a choice to come into existence?

One who allowed free will, I suppose.

That's beside the point. You just illustrated mine.

Honestly... monkeyboy? That's low.

Not to an Evolutionist.

Even less to anybody familiar with the excellent Comic strip/book "Liberty Meadows."

Broaden your horizons.

What kind of benevolent God would even allow such a choice to come into existence?

this is because god has given us freedom of choice in this world were we are all free to make our own choices. as u can make life, but u cant controll it

One who allowed free will, I suppose.

Non sequitur. One cannot have a universe with an Omniscient God, AND prophecy, AND free will. They are inherently contradictory.

Inbreedia this is a debate thread :P thats the whole point. I don't take any offence here and I hope the other side doesnt either. I like the hear their views although nothing they have said so far really convinces me of anything.

First of two brings up a good point though, an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god cannot exsist. Not in our world. Unless he's just lazy and doesn't care.

God is not omnibenevolent, but rather omniloving. The first, the worst, door is an invariable choice. It was our fault, by separating ourselves from God, that the first door exists in the first place. It is a testament to God's love that the second door is no longer an insurmountable obstacle, but rather as simple as turning the knob.

So it was YOU who showed me that website! That is so freakin' gay.
Wow, using "gay" as an insult. :rolleyes: Low man...

And yet, the death of Christ had eyewitness testimony, and documentation. And still there are naysayers.
The evidence for evolution are primary sources, things we can see, touch and exmine. All the evidence we have of Christ are accounts that we cannot verify at all. And so what if Christ lived? Doesn't prove that he's the Messiah.

So it was YOU who showed me that website! That is so freakin' gay.

Great response.

And yet, the death of Christ had eyewitness testimony, and documentation. And still there are naysayers.
what eyewitness testimony? the word of the bible? You know the bible has the first page missing, it says "To my dearest Sandra. All characters in this book are ficticious, and bear no resemblance to people living or dead"

this is because god has given us freedom of choice in this world were we are all free to make our own choices. as u can make life, but u cant controll it

There is no need for Human beings to have to make this particular choice. There's no rational basis for it.

Non sequitur. One cannot have a universe with an Omniscient God, AND prophecy, AND free will. They are inherently contradictory.

God cannot be explained, His mind is beyond our comprehension, and, thus, as are his decisions. All we can do is play along. We have no right to question the wills of He who created us.

There is no need for Human beings to have to make this particular choice. There's no rational basis for it.

We need to make this choice because some choose Hell.
We need to make this choice because we are sinners, evil people.
We need to make this choice because we were the ones who separated ourselves from God in the first place.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go eat breakfast. I may be back soon, I may not be back at all.

The first, the worst, door is an invariable choice. It was our fault, by separating ourselves from God, that the first door exists in the first place.

#1. As I recall, "we" had outside 'help.' Help which God created, allowed to become corrupted, and allowed free access to us.


#2. What do you mean "we?" I had NOTHING to do with it! I didn't eat the flipping apple!

God cannot be explained, His mind is beyond our comprehension, and, thus, as are his decisions. All we can do is play along. We have no right to question the wills of He who created us.

As his victims, yes we do.

Not to an Evolutionist.

Even less to anybody familiar with the excellent Comic strip/book "Liberty Meadows."

Broaden your horizons.

Reading a comic strip or not taking the phrase monkeyboy as a term of endurement doesn't exactly make my horizons any more narrow. I could have hundreds of other interests that could make my horizons quite wide, maybe even wider than yours. So, how are you to know what my horizons are?

(I'm also quite aware of the irony of being lured into an argument. But frankly, dueling wits give me something to do for the next hour.)

A omnibenevolent omnipotent omniscient god can't exsist. If he was really all 3 he would not allow evil to exsist. Especialy not Hell or the Devil whom so many people blame bad things on.

And if he wanted believers you'd think a omnipotent god would be doing a better job at receiving them. I mean really just appear and shoot some lightning bolts out of your finger, thats proof enough for me and I'll bend down to your will otherwise don't expect me to beleive 1 of 3 crazy out dated books.

organized religion such as christianity, Jewdaism, Muslim etc have two basic purposes. the first is to keep people under fear of some ultimate father figure. the other is so people have no fear of death. I hate organized religion, but i have no problem with others believing what they want, just dont come to my house trying to guilt me into joining your religion.

Non sequitur. One cannot have a universe with an Omniscient God, AND prophecy, AND free will. They are inherently contradictory.

A common misunderstanding (I take it that you are referring to predestination and freewill conflict): they seemingly can't coexist without there being a state of paradox; BUT God is outside of time (as said in the Bible - "a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years a day"), so therefore the same rules which apply to the human mind, within time, do not apply to creature outside of time. The simplest way of putting it is that predestination and prophecy is like God looking back on all creation, all events having passed. This is wrong (since God is outside time) but it is a good picture.

oh and using gay as an insult are you like 12 or something?

Reading a comic strip or not taking the phrase monkeyboy as a term of endurement doesn't exactly make my horizons any more narrow. I could have hundreds of other interests that could make my horizons quite wide, maybe even wider than yours. So, how are you to know what my horizons are?

(I'm also quite aware of the irony of being lured into an argument. But frankly, dueling wits give me something to do for the next hour.)

No need to argue about my manners (which are, admittedly, atrocious). The other debate should provide all the entertainment we need.

As for a battle of wits... well, that'd be sort of like if I tried to swat a fly with a Lincoln Town Car.

( I don't think you have a fly's wit. That last bit's a joke. Feel free to swipe it and use it in other arguments. Sometimes I say things just because they're a good line.)

I admit, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks Caribou.

No need to argue about my manners (which are, admittedly, atrocious). The other debate should provide all the entertainment we need.

As for a battle of wits... well, that'd be sort of like if I tried to swat a fly with a Lincoln Town Car.

( I don't think you have a fly's wit. That last bit's a joke. Feel free to swipe it and use it in other arguments. Sometimes I say things just because they're a good line.)

Bad karma, pally. The one good thing about those who think they have wit is that they usually don't see a good comeback coming...

(BTW, reading Liberty Meadows now. Dialogue is a bit canned at this point, hopefully it will improve. Art is ok.)

time is an illusion, and relative. so god doesnt live outside it as it is an illlusion made so we can cope with cause and effect, making us think we have free will. if god lives outside time. destiny and fate comes into play, so therefor we dont have freewill, and are sent to hell. the bible says we have freewill, but if god is outside time we do not

A common misunderstanding (I take it that you are referring to predestination and freewill conflict): they seemingly can't coexist without there being a state of paradox; BUT God is outside of time (as said in the Bible - "a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years a day"), so therefore the same rules which apply to the human mind, within time, do not apply to creature outside of time. The simplest way of putting it is that predestination and prophecy is like God looking back on all creation, all events having passed. This is wrong (since God is outside time) but it is a good picture.

That interpretation only works if you ignore other parts of the Bible in which God is surprised, regrets His actions, is convinced to change his mind, or takes other actions which clearly show God as having a linear (time-dependent) existence.

Bad karma, pally. The one good thing about those who think they have wit is that they usually don't see a good comeback coming...


Karma's not very Christian.

A common misunderstanding (I take it that you are referring to predestination and freewill conflict): they seemingly can't coexist without there being a state of paradox; BUT God is outside of time (as said in the Bible - "a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years a day"), so therefore the same rules which apply to the human mind, within time, do not apply to creature outside of time. The simplest way of putting it is that predestination and prophecy is like God looking back on all creation, all events having passed. This is wrong (since God is outside time) but it is a good picture.
time is an illusion, and relative. so god doesnt live outside it as it is an illlusion made so we can cope with cause and effect, making us think we have free will. if god lives outside time. destiny and fate comes into play, so therefor we dont have freewill, and are sent to hell. the bible says we have freewill, but if god is outside time we do not

Bad karma, pally. The one good thing about those who think they have wit is that they usually don't see a good comeback coming...

ah ha ah ha, karma is part of the budhist religiong. Inbreedia u r really stupid to keep on goien on about religion not exsisting and then using aspects of religion(even though is is wrong) to defend ur self

Karma's not very Christian.

Beside the point...

Hell, i'll just be more precise next time.

ah ha ah ha, karma is part of the budhist religiong. Inbreedia u r really stupid to keep on goien on about religion not exsisting and then using aspects of religion(even though is is wrong) to defend ur self


I said religion didn't exist?

Can someone quote me on that? Because I swear I was on the side of the religious in this argument.

But to straighten out my alliegence, yes, i'm religious. Former Christian. I sort of... failed a test of faith or two. I'm still a bit sore about it. And worse yet, have you ever tried to slink back, feeling all that shame of failing before? I still haven't been able to do it yet.

I said religion didn't exist?

Can someone quote me on that? Because I swear I was on the side of the religious in this argument.
thats what i thought

I said religion didn't exist?

Can someone quote me on that? Because I swear I was on the side of the religious in this argument.

I thought so, too.

Well, guess we found the flywit, then...

i apologize, its late over hear and i wasnt paying attention, crap

Also heres an idea, instead of getting Noah to make a goofy love boat why not just bring him to heaven and recreate the world? It only took him 6 days anyway, is that so much to ask? God is lazy

Na, he's not, he's just a communist and re-creating the world wasn't in his five-year plan

if so what denomantion r u inbreedia?

believe in god if you want, but dont try to force your beliefs onto me. (much as the americans are doing in the middle east)

Also heres an idea, instead of getting Noah to make a goofy love boat why not just bring him to heaven and recreate the world? It only took him 6 days anyway, is that so much to ask? God is lazy

According to Genesis, the whole deal with that flood thing was to wipe out the evil in the world. What was left was Noah and his family. So God charged Noah to build the ark and put in two of each animal.

What gets me is how could they make such a big craft, and gather every two animals. The logistics alone would be a nightmare!

Well, it may be breakfast time for Vespuci, but it's lunchtime for me. Then work. Too bad this thread will probably have dropped into obscurity (or gone on and on for 500 pages without any agreement) before I get back.

Na, he's not, he's just a communist and re-creating the world wasn't in his five-year plan
lol

if so what denomantion r u inbreedia?

My family was Protestant, but I did not take their denomination with me. When I first became Christian, I was part of a multi-denominational church at the University of Calgary. I'm not sure what denomination they were, but I theorize that they were Baptist.

I am neither these denominations, I warn you. I have no denomination.

According to Genesis, the whole deal with that flood thing was to wipe out the evil in the world. What was left was Noah and his family. So God charged Noah to build the ark and put in two of each animal.

What gets me is how could they make such a big craft, and gather every two animals. The logistics alone would be a nightmare!

Agreed. Those elephants are going to need a lot of food :rolleyes:

My theory is that the craft was more than a boat. A big craft. Maybe even more high tech than was let on in the book.

Same theory goes to Babel. Maybe it wasn't literally a tower, but it could reach heaven. Dimensional gate?

But they are just that, theories.

Agreed. Those elephants are going to need a lot of food :rolleyes:
I wonder who had to shovel all the dung?

I don't know. But leaning towards atheism, certainly. I consider myself an agnostic.

The nays have it!

CRISSAKES PEOPLE, IF YOU DON'T KNOW, YOU ANSWER NO. The 'don't know' people are the most indecisive you will ever meet, don't keep company with them.

Oh and the incest fest Noah's grandchildren had to go through to repopulate the world. Also the fact that everyone on Earth had to basicaly come from them, so even humans evolved on some level no? Unless each of his sons had a wife of a diffrent race :P still 3 isn't enough.

I said religion didn't exist?

Can someone quote me on that? Because I swear I was on the side of the religious in this argument.

But to straighten out my alliegence, yes, i'm religious. Former Christian. I sort of... failed a test of faith or two. I'm still a bit sore about it. And worse yet, have you ever tried to slink back, feeling all that shame of failing before? I still haven't been able to do it yet.

Well... God can forgive anything... don't let shame get in the way of eternal happiness :confused:

My theory is that the craft was more than a boat. A big craft. Maybe even more high tech than was let on in the book.

Same theory goes to Babel. Maybe it wasn't literally a tower, but it could reach heaven. Dimensional gate?

But they are just that, theories.

Its a metaphor. The Bible is a metaphor. Thats what allows me to believe in the existence of God.

Peebles, you rock.

Its a metaphor. The Bible is a metaphor. Thats what allows me to believe in the existence of God.


I know. That's why I said the Tower of Babel had to be a metaphor for some other means of travel and communication, or that the Arc was a metaphor for a biodome ship or something like that.

It would make some good sci-fi. I might try to write an adventure about a 'Tower of Babel' sometime.

hay jrv, ur sheep want u to return to bed

Well... God can forgive anything... don't let shame get in the way of eternal happiness :confused:

That's all well and good... until god throws the next test, and I finally break and say 'Stop doing this! Dammit, I hate you for this!'.

Until I can stop saying that every time he decides to throw my life for a loop, then I can crawl back.

Peebles, you rock.
:D Thanks mate. :fluffle:

Well... God can forgive anything... don't let shame get in the way of eternal happiness :confused:

That's all well and good... until god throws the next test, and I finally break and say 'Stop doing this! Dammit, I hate you for this!'.

Until I can stop saying that every time he decides to throw my life for a loop, then I can crawl back. God doesn't want people with a weak foundation of faith. And the fact that I keep cursing him every time my life gets shot to hell shows my foundation is weak.

But the problem is, can't build a foundation with him, that was proven when I walked away. Can't build it without him, as I can tell you now. I'm done for.

i want to walk up the side of the mountain, i wanna walk down the other side of the mountain. i wanna swim in the river, lie in the sun, wanna try and be nice to everyone... arrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh y wont that come off rage!

The existence of something otherworldly, is one of the most documented things in human history. Every culture have such a notion, and outside of the Christian world it is still typical to find people that actually have a living experience with this “orherworld”. More often than not, the experience of this “otherworld” leads to the experience/belief in some concept of God. Do you need more evidence?

that proves nothing besides we're all humans...human nature created itself a god so of course every culture is going to..notie how they aren't all the same?...that's cuz we didn't create them together at the same time...or else we would have one all supreme idea of a god...god didn't create humanity...humanity created god...

Oh and the incest fest Noah's grandchildren had to go through to repopulate the world. Also the fact that everyone on Earth had to basicaly come from them, so even humans evolved on some level no? Unless each of his sons had a wife of a diffrent race :P still 3 isn't enough.

I have thought about this a lot and determined that there were actually six potential races (3 sons, and the three daughter in laws.) PLUS Noah was still able to have kids.

Noting the commonalities between some Native Americans and the Orientals, I have arbitrarily decided that they must share the same father (Japeth I think) and that his wife's DNA must have contributed to the physical differences between the two.

Ham is (I think) the father of the black, latino, and India races. Again, I have no proof for this.

Shem clearly is in the lineage of the Jews (from Shem, we get the term "Semitic peoples") It is safe to assume that the majority of the Middle East is from the patriarchal line of Shem.

Which leaves white people. Where did they come from? Do I have something reversed?

Maybe Shem's wife was white. Couldn't tell you for certain. Could have been Ham. Could have been Japeth. Again, arbitrarily I'll decide Shem's wife was white.

Now we have accounted for the 7 main groupings of common physical features... everything in between can be accounted for by interbreeding. So it's not impossible or unlikely in my view.

Do I believe in God? Yes. I can go beyond that statement. I believe in God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost. For those of you who think of Casper or something, in this instance it is The Holy Spirit of God that came from God after Jesus was resurrected. The Holy Ghost comforts us and helps us understand God's forgiveness or our sins. I am a bit dismayed to see the number of responders to this poll show more people who do not believe God exists.

Everyone knows that the tower of Babel was a goa'uld mothership.

The holy ghost? Sorry... but the first ghost which tries to enter my domain gets to meet my vacuum cleaner.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp

Damchi

Some good scientific thinking on that site...

"We really don't know where the physical center of the universe is. If God's heavens are infinite in extent, then no center actually exists. But the question of the earth's physical position is less important than the spiritual reality of God's love for his people."

And on Dinosaurs?

"There is a lack of supporting evidence for any of these events! Instead, creationists suggest that most dinosaurs died as a result of the great flood described in Genesis 6-8."

There is a lack of supporting evidence, but only on that FAQ, because they've willfully chosen not to present any, even though in reality there is a vast quantity. But hey, lets just call that an oversight, actually, let's call it a bare-faced lie, because that's what it is.

But wait!

"Dinosaur types which were preserved on the ark probably faced severe climate changes following the flood."

Dinosaurs on the Ark? You know, it's a long time since I went to Sunday school, or read the Bible, but Dinosaurs on the Ark? I think I would have remembered that.

"Creation research continues to demonstrate the importance of the worldwide flood in explaining earth's history."

Does it? There's no evidence of that on the "highly informative" FAQ either?

Failure to present a vast quantity of evidence that exists against your case, and then suggesting your own case is superior yet presenting no evidence for it either, is proof of nothing but the creators of that site willfully misleading gullible idiots. Only such a person would look at that site and mistake it for truth.

That's all well and good... until god throws the next test, and I finally break and say 'Stop doing this! Dammit, I hate you for this!'.

Until I can stop saying that every time he decides to throw my life for a loop, then I can crawl back. God doesn't want people with a weak foundation of faith. And the fact that I keep cursing him every time my life gets shot to hell shows my foundation is weak.

But the problem is, can't build a foundation with him, that was proven when I walked away. Can't build it without him, as I can tell you now. I'm done for.

You know, I have been where you are. And to this day I wonder if I permanently stunted my growth as a Christian when I argued with God. Let's face it, I was plain mean to Him. But I believe He has forgiven me... so don't give up! If it really was too late you wouldn't care enough to join a debate!

Arguing with god? Errrrr... you realize how bizarre that is, right?

I stick to mooning god and the rest of those buggers. And if they want something... I'll open a mean can of whoop ass on them.

God doesnt exist.

Arguing with god? Errrrr...

I stick to mooning god and the rest of those buggers. And if they want something... I'll open a mean can of whoop ass on them.

I recommend against tempting God. Please repent, and sin no more.

God doesnt exist.

Actually I have a friend in down under who has Jesus in his fridge. Useful I tell you, does the turning-water-to-beer stunt. Pretty cool. Never runing out of beer? Must be paradise...

God doesnt exist.

Yes, He does exist.

Quite possibly because of varying elevations? Just maybe? Say a dinosaur existed before the flood on top of a hill, and a human existed in a valley next to it. The human is then lower than the dinosaur.

Dude, I hate to burst that bubble, but rock strata don't work like that. It's not based on elevation. To explain, although I don't know the details of the strata:

You start at the top - soil, grass.
After a set distance, you reach the second layer.
After another set distance, you reach the next layer.
Etc.

When you encounter a hill, the rock layerss are raised - hills don't have extra layers of rock on top of the ones found at ground level. Rather, the layers have been lifted. Ask a geologist.

I recommend against tempting God. Please repent, and sin no more.

ROFL!!!!

Oh really, what he'll do? Kill me? HA! Then I'll be reborn, big deal.

*moons god*

Irrelevent. Slavery and racism used to be prevailent in the world, especially throughout America, do we then consider all current Americans racist and ex-slave owners because our ancestors thought it was ok?

Your reference above was about 1 instance in the book of Judges.

Surely you can come up with something better than this to try and demean Christians.

Damchi

1 instance in the book of Judges? But is not the bible the divine world of a god? there are also several references to people being starved into eating their own children, rules and regulations regarding slaves (just as a note the slavery in america was supported by the 'divine word of a god') a fair omount of god smiting people and various other atrocities and inhumanitys.

Oh and demeaning christians isnt my target here just demeaning the divine word of a god.

Actually I have a friend in down under who has Jesus in his fridge. Useful I tell you, does the turning-water-to-beer stunt. Pretty cool. Never runing out of beer? Must be paradise...

He's from sydney isnt he, there very gay up there

ROFL!!!!

Oh really, what he'll do? Kill me? HA! Then I'll be reborn, big deal.

*moons god*

Only God knows what He will do to you. In your life on earth, here and now, there are any number of ways He may manifest Himself to you, to humble you. After your soul leaves your mortal coil, however, then the things you understand as time and space are gone. You will have left this dimension. My comprehension of the infinite is limited. The extent of God's wrath, nonetheless, is infinite. The same is true for His mercy. You have free will. Once you have learned certain truths, however, if you make a choice against God, then you will eventually know what He does as a result.

He's from sydney isnt he, there very gay up there

lol, actually, he's only a few miles away from Sydney, how'd you know?

Only God knows what He will do to you. In your life on earth, here and now, there are any number of ways He may manifest Himself to you, to humble you. After your soul leaves your mortal coil, however, then the things you understand as time and space are gone. You will have left this dimension. My comprehension of the infinite is limited. The extent of God's wrath, nonetheless, is infinite. The same is true for His mercy. You have free will. Once you have learned certain truths, however, if you make a choice against God, then you will eventually know what He does as a result.

I can give you a basic account of what happens, this time taken from John 3:18:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

In other words, believe or you're in trouble. No wonder there were so many Crusades...

To the question of thread: No, of course not.

In reality god doesn't exist, while it exists as a concept in some people's minds. However, everyday's life, each event is proof that there of course are no supreme beings. We are just but great sentient race, evolved as we logically would have. Possessing just appropriate common sence and moral norms to evolve as far as we have done.

And by the way, I have encountered three general types of people who believe in god:
- Close minded: "My parents told that god exists, therefore he exists, and everybody who disagrees is FOOL!!! AND HE WILL BURN IN HELL!!'"

- Weak minded: people, who can't take responsibility of their actions, and explains their failures "god wanted that to happen", "It was god's finger that made it", etc. and can't take decisions in their life "whatever i do is what god want me to do"

- Good minded: people, who feels moral responsibility about others and in general, want to help others and reduce evil things in our daily lifes. And they use god as a symbol, why they should done it. Otherwise, there is question "Why one should do something with no return or profit". But they just want to do good things. So they do it in the name of god.


nothing against god. These religious people are just part of life. which is ok. fine with me. (I have strong bias against Christianity in particular, but that's other story:) )

Just wanted to share my opinions

[QUOTE=Greater Yubari]lol, actually, he's only a few miles away from Sydney, how'd you know?[/QUOT

he's obviously a bit odd(no offence to u) so he's either from Sydney or Tasmania, but i doubt he's commited incest so that eliminates tasmania, and hey presto he's from sydney

I can give you a basic account of what happens, this time taken from John 3:18:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

In other words, believe or you're in trouble. No wonder there were so many Crusades...

Very good. Thank you. Let's pray for the mercy of God on the souls who do not believe.

Why is there an "I don't know" option? That always just irritates the hell out of me.

You can not know if God exists.. but how the hell can you not know if you believe God exists? What kind of person doesn't know the content of their own thoughts? I mean, unless someone here has mutiple personality disorder and isn't sure if their alter-ego believes in God... or maybe they have amnesia...

Either you possess a belief or you do not. It's a binary state of affairs. And not knowing the answer to such a simple question would seem to imply some kind of psychological issue.

Most people think answering "I don't know" to this question means that they're just not taking a position on whether or not God exists... but that's not the case. If you don't want to take a position on whether or not God exists answer "I don't know" to the question "Does God Exist?".

And to make this the millionth or so time I've said this over the course of my life... In addition to answering "I don't know" to the poll question not making any sense... it doesn't make you a bloody agnostic either!

You want to indicate you're an agnostic? You have to answer "I don't believe it's possible to know whether God exists or not".

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=agnosticism.

Agnosticism is NOT a statement about a person's state of belief in God. It is a statement about your beliefs regarding the "knowability" of God. You can be an agnostic AND STILL BELIEVE IN GOD. You can also be an agnostic AND STILL BELIEVE GOD DOESN'T EXIST.

Only God knows what He will do to you. In your life on earth, here and now, there are any number of ways He may manifest Himself to you, to humble you. After your soul leaves your mortal coil, however, then the things you understand as time and space are gone. You will have left this dimension. My comprehension of the infinite is limited. The extent of God's wrath, nonetheless, is infinite. The same is true for His mercy. You have free will. Once you have learned certain truths, however, if you make a choice against God, then you will eventually know what He does as a result.

That's too bad for him, because I was never raised in a Christian way. Tough shit that my parents are actually Taoist (with a strong Buddhist interference). He can kiss my Chinese ass.

Certain truths? Oh please...

He can come. But he shouldn't complain if I sent him running home to cry at mommy. God's wrath? Let him come. God's wrath, that's really the loving god Jesus tried to preach about, yep. It just proves what a regime this really is. And people wonder why more and more people quit the church.

I only have four words for him "Bring it on, bitch."

No, let's not pray for the vile heathens, mate.

What I want to know is how an omnibenevolent (all-loving) God can condemn Jews and Muslims (who even share the Old Testament with you!) to Hell simply because of their upbringing and indoctrination? And what's he going to do to Amazonian tribes that have never heard of him? Condemn them too, but lovingly?

No offence, but if I'm wrong and God tries that stunt on me when I die, he'll have a bit of an argument on his hands (even though I doubt I could try).

More than 500 people witnessed Jesus after his ressurection. Thousands before

:rolleyes:

There's no direct evidence though, is there? All we have is a biblical account, which could well be myth.

I have looked at the ressurection story a few years back in the bible and they are a number of differences between the 4 gospels. (trying to remember exactly) In some the rock is already rolled away from the tomb when they arrive and in others they have to move it, in each one the people who are at the tomb when they arrive are different people. You would think that the eye witnesses to the hinge point of christianty would be able to get their storys straight. (Thats just a couple of the complete contradictions within the bible id have to look them up again its been years since i debated my beliefs - even then it was with myself :) )

example taken from infedels.org (dont have a bible handy to look it up)

MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

he's obviously a bit odd(no offence to u) so he's either from Sydney or Tasmania, but i doubt he's commited incest so that eliminates tasmania, and hey presto he's from sydney

lol, don't worry, I'm odd too. And yes, he's very odd, the best example of oddness.

You know, I have been where you are. And to this day I wonder if I permanently stunted my growth as a Christian when I argued with God. Let's face it, I was plain mean to Him. But I believe He has forgiven me... so don't give up! If it really was too late you wouldn't care enough to join a debate!

I disagree. Just because I joined this debate on your side, doesn't mean i'll be saved. One can still do good things and still get burned.

Besides, everyone argues with God. But how many do not buckle under the pressure when God cranks it out? Not many, and those people can truely be called Christians.

Christianity is the truth, and, doubtless, somewhere inside you, you know that perfectly well, and try to reject it.


What about all those poor Hindus, Buddists, Muslims and people from islands who havnt even heard of Christ?

Bit of pit luck depends on geography... oo and he rolls the dice for where hes going to be born... ooo and he gets a little island somewhere in the south pacific ooo hard luck son. ;)

Bu surely if God DID exist, there'd be some evidence of it? Unless God created the universe then pissed off, which I find rather unlikely...
There are those who would use the various holy books as proof of His existance, and others who would point to the minor miricales that happen every day.

Personaly, I do beleive in Him, and I realize that this is probably just because it is comforting to beleive in a higher power. I generaly consider myself a Christian, though that is just for lack of a better term, I dont agree with everything that Christianity teaches.

What really wraps it up for me is this... there were multiple witnesses to Jesus' death and resurrection.

Take the example of a police report. An officer, a victim, and maybe even a witness or two colaborate to write down a sequence of events (for this example, we'll say that there were witnesses, just like the bible). After they all put their stories together, they file it in a report and put it away in a filing cabinet. There, they assembled the truth as they saw it, wrote it down, and archived it.

Now, lets speed things up a couple thousand years. Say some futuristic cop digs through the archives and finds the same police report. It is all written down, with the signatures of multiple witnesses. Yet the cop doesn't believe it because the account is so old.

Now tell me, if this story could be held true in the bible, where there were: multiple witnesses, testimonies of said events that were similar (not matching EXACTLY, but similar enough to confirm that certain main events did happen), and documentation of eyewitness accounts. What changed during a couple thousand years to make it less true?

As humans, we have a hard time seeing that far into the past and believing it.

What about all those poor Hindus, Buddists, Muslims and people from islands who havnt even heard of Christ?

Bit of pit luck depends on geography... oo and he rolls the dice for where hes going to be born... ooo and he gets a little island somewhere in the south pacific ooo hard luck son. ;)

A D6 or a D20? And who's game master?

Not even a d100. Or a d1000. Too many variables.

And what if he rolls and the GM says "You're reborn as penguin"?

Though this brings an interesting point. Let's say he rolls a D1000 and rolls... 666...

The real question is, do you believe in magic?

Vespucii, how can you sit there and know that you are an true abomination in god's eyes (those are not my words, they were spoken by a friend of mine who considers himself a 'true christian' when we touched upon the subject of people who think they're christians, but really are not.) and yet defend the christian religion? Or is it just ignorance? I do not believe in any god, but am generally happy to listen to the words of people with opposing views, but reading through your posts is just like a water bottle that hates water.

Three in the morning. Off to bed.
I bid all a good night

Alright much earlier someone asked for scientific proof of God's existence. There is none because God is metaphysical and science deals strictly with the physical, but there is philosophical proof of the existence in a metaphysical being that we can call 'God'. If you look at everything in the physical world it has come from something before it. Absolutely everything has a cause. So what is the cause of the totality of things? Something had to come first, something has to be causing itself-but that isn't a characteristic of anything in the physical world. So then there is more 'out there' than simply the physical world. We call this the metaphysical. There must be a metaphysical being causing itself that is the cause of the totality of things-or that 'got the ball rolling' you could say. From there science and the big band and evolution and all of that can pick up and you can explain how we are here today. But ultimately the entire physical world had to come from something. That something is what we call God.

My view on God:

He does exist. He is a scary, scary person. He is literally the judge of this existence. He could shower us with gifts, or he could smite us with the celestial fly swatter, for I believe that God is powerful enough to do anything.

Why do I believe in God? Look at this world. Look at this universe. See anything strange about it?

I do. It's too damn orderly, and not nearly random enough. Events take place in most opportune or inopportune times. There are a few random events, but some are just TOO convenient.

Look at the Earth, for example. If you go by modern science, you would believe that we all started out in a big bang, that life was brought to Earth by a sequence of events, that Earth had to be in an exact same orbit in an exact same time the sun is at an exact same temperature with an exact same gas giant planet that sucks up the astroids that should have whacked existence on Earth as we know it a long time ago... etc. And yet somehow this little blue ball of a planet has just enough water, just enough oceans, enough deserts, forests, lakes and plains to sustain life.

Sustaining life involves a very fragile balance. I wish I could get into more detail, but I can't, honest.

But what I do gather is that this fragile balance is very hard to achieve, maybe even impossible to duplicate. So many little things have to all come together, from large details to ones so mundane and small that even all the world's 160+ IQ populace brainstorming at once could miss.

And odds are, one of those small details should have been kiboshed by now. But they weren't. Why?

That is the question that leads me to believe in God. Too many neat, orderly sequences that should have gone wrong in this universe... yet we are still here. I think somebody is watching over us, like a kid tending to one big ant colony.

Technically though the universe is infinite and that means there is an inifinite number of chances that those small and mundane chances could have been taken by anouther amount of mass elsewhere within the bounds of infinity. I.e. had any number of the random event(s) which happened here to make this planet life sustainable not happened, well changes are that it would ahve happened else where. Its a matter of maths and proabilitys when dealing with infinity, any proability (no matter how large or inprobable) when taken infinite opertunitys to occur means it almost certainly occurs.

This means that life could (and has been, will be) created throughout the universe, true the majority of planets will be unihabited or inhaabitatle by us mere humans (maybe none will be) but then taking evolution and abiogenisis and presto we have different creatures capable of living on said unihabital planets. This of course also supports the theory that an omnipresent etc etc omnipowerful being evolved at some point somewhere and came along and created life on teh planet earth in the form of us humans however not that it existed throughout all time or that people spoke to it and wrote the bible.

Also if you are trying to bring about the idea of a divine creator, well how about the appendix in us humans or the terrible locating of the (male gland that is suspectable to cancer begins with p lol) or the random mutated animals that i have seen pictures of (with two heads and such like) it doesnt really support a perfect creator (unless of course he created things unperfectly so we wouldnt suspect his involvement and become a test of faith :P)

After you're dead, then it's WAY too late, buddy. Best stick with what could be the truth then throw away your soul.

what about sticking with what could be a lie and throwing away your life?

What really wraps it up for me is this... there were multiple witnesses to Jesus' death and resurrection.

Take the example of a police report. An officer, a victim, and maybe even a witness or two colaborate to write down a sequence of events (for this example, we'll say that there were witnesses, just like the bible). After they all put their stories together, they file it in a report and put it away in a filing cabinet. There, they assembled the truth as they saw it, wrote it down, and archived it.

Now, lets speed things up a couple thousand years. Say some futuristic cop digs through the archives and finds the same police report. It is all written down, with the signatures of multiple witnesses. Yet the cop doesn't believe it because the account is so old.

actually, the cop would probably doubt the account primarily because witness testimony is relatively unreliable, and because there have been "witnessed accounts" of aliens landing, the Virgin Mary appearing in a bowl of soup, and Elvis playing miniature golf. the age of the account only serves to compound the problems, since the cop would also be faced with the problem of historical context; perhaps, stylistically, supposed "witness accounts" were the way that fabels were passed on back in the day, or perhaps the translation has been modified or corrupted over time.


Now tell me, if this story could be held true in the bible, where there were: multiple witnesses, testimonies of said events that were similar (not matching EXACTLY, but similar enough to confirm that certain main events did happen), and documentation of eyewitness accounts. What changed during a couple thousand years to make it less true?

the fact that all these "witness accounts" are described only in one book, and that book was corrupted and translated and modified by all manner of people over the course of centuries, tends to make the accounts less believable. also, you are ignoring the fact that accounts of such miracles were not rare in that time period; Jesus had at least a dozen contemporaries for whom similar stories exist. holy men raising the dead, walking on water, and doing public acts of "magic" were quite common, and historians find no shortage of messiahs to sift through.

furthermore, virtually the entire Jesus myth was borrowed from other sources, most notably the myth of Horus. why do you believe the "witness accounts" of Jesus' miracles, but reject the same accounts describing such miracles being performed centuries earlier by Horus?

As humans, we have a hard time seeing that far into the past and believing it.
as humans, many of us have a hard time accepting that a fellow 2000 years ago died for sins the rest of us had yet to commit, and that he did so at the command of his supposedly all-powerful and all-good Father, a Father who was unwilling or unable to find any better solution than to allow the torturous death of the child He begat on a 14 year old girl. we particularly have trouble believing such things on the basis of 2000-year-old hearsay, brought to us through accounts that were not even written or compiled until centuries after the events in question, and which were collected by a non-Christian emperor as a means to manipulate his population to cement his political power.