NationStates Jolt Archive

so the father rapes his daughter multiple times and beats her she should still love him?
You sure like this violence against women angle, don't you?

Especially since in the examples you gave where you would disown your children, they were doing nothing to harm you or anyone else.

It's also possible to love someone, but really not like them.

You sure like this violence against women angle, don't you?

Especially since in the examples you gave where you would disown your children, they were doing nothing to harm you or anyone else.

It's also possible to love someone, but really not like them.
I would disown my children for not following the Torah given by G-d to our forefathers who swore to uphold it.

And yes, the violence against women angle works very well from my position, because it's harder to counter.

I will love them, and it will be very hard for me to disown them, but I'll do it nonetheless because loving G-d is more important than loving kids.
Loving your children is part of loving God. As a Jew, you should know that God is nothing "separate" from the world, as Christians somewhat believe. God is everything that is, was, and will be. Teaching your children to follow the mitzvot is not something that should be given up, after they break it once. That's.. just.. silly. I'm sure your Rabbi (if you have one) would say this, as well. I also think mitzvot 13, 15, 22, and 49 would uphold the idea that disowning your children for adultery is not a good idea.

Judaism recognizes people as humans. For example, (I don't remember if this is a certain Jewish custom or Rabbinical law) if a person absolutely needed to fulfill a certain sinful desire, they're to go to a foreign town, dressed all in black and do whatever it is, whether it's adultery or whatever. The idea is to get it "out of your system." You cannot expect every person to go through life without making mistakes. And if you expect an absolute guarantee that all of your children remain abstintent until marriage, in this modern world of sex-filled television, then I strongly suggest you move to a deserted island.

I also think you're young, and that once you actually have kids, your perspective will change, completely. :)

Loving your children is part of loving God. As a Jew, you should know that God is nothing "separate" from the world, as Christians somewhat believe. God is everything that is, was, and will be. Teaching your children to follow the mitzvot is not something that should be given up, after they break it once. That's.. just.. silly. I'm sure your Rabbi (if you have one) would say this, as well. I also think mitzvot 13, 15, 22, and 49 would uphold the idea that disowning your children for adultery is not a good idea.

Judaism recognizes people as humans. For example, (I don't remember if this is a certain Jewish custom or Rabbinical law) if a person absolutely needed to fulfill a certain sinful desire, they're to go to a foreign town, dressed all in black and do whatever it is, whether it's adultery or whatever. The idea is to get it "out of your system." You cannot expect every person to go through life without making mistakes. And if you expect an absolute guarantee that all of your children remain abstintent until marriage, in this modern world of sex-filled television, then I strongly suggest you move to a deserted island.

I also think you're young, and that once you actually have kids, your perspective will change, completely. :)
Well, you seem to know about Judaism a lot more than me. Since you say so, I will review my decision.

But if they marry a non-Jew, then I know that the Torah tells you to pretend that they are dead.

As for the "black clothes", there is no way that is in the Torah. That's probably just rabbinical interpretation.

And also, Orthodox Jews don't watch TV.

And yes, the violence against women angle works very well from my position, because it's harder to counter.
Except that it's a bad example and doesn't relate to your point at all.

Well, you seem to know about Judaism a lot more than me. Since you say so, I will review my decision.
I'm not Jewish, though. I'm just fascinated by it. If you're a Jew, you probably know more than me. ;)

But if you want an educated opinion and can't get to a Synagogue, there's Orthodox Rabbis (mostly in Israel) at AskMoses.com.

But if they marry a non-Jew, then I know that the Torah tells you to pretend that they are dead.
Where does it say that?! My dad's girlfriend is Jewish.

And also, Orthodox Jews don't watch TV.
Really? Why?

Where does it say that?! My dad's girlfriend is Jewish.

Really? Why?
1)No, Jewish man to Gentile woman.
2)nd if you expect an absolute guarantee that all of your children remain abstintent until marriage, in this modern world of sex-filled television

Yeah I'm struggling...to find decent amatuer gay porn for a resonable price!HAAA! lol that joke has been probably said about twenty times but ya know, the maker of this thread was askin for it

Doom, do you by chance wear cotton-poly blends?

Doom seems to have that suicide bomber mentality of "strict legalism in my personal interpretation of religion gives me supreme confidence that I will go to paradise when I die, and adherance to this strict legalism of interpretation is the sole criterion and overwhelming motivation in life"

Doom, do you by chance wear cotton-poly blends?
I don't know what you are talking about. Elaborate please.

Doom seems to have that suicide bomber mentality of "strict legalism in my personal interpretation of religion gives me supreme confidence that I will go to paradise when I die, and adherance to this strict legalism of interpretation is the sole criterion and overwhelming motivation in life"
Pretty much. Except I won't commit a suicide bombing, because suicide in any almost any form is against the principles of Judaism.

http://peteashton.com/library/pics/god_kills_a_kitten.jpg

There are too many feral cats here in Australia anyway. It is therefore my duty as an Australian to masturbate regularly, to try to control the cat population!

Husband and Wife isn't unconditional. Father and son/daughter should be. You can still hate your kids, and they can still hate you. But in the end you should love the unconditionally, even if you don't like them.
That and the fact that your child sleeping with someone in a situation you disapprove of is in no way directly harming you, nor are their intentions hurtful.

Pretty much. Except I won't commit a suicide bombing, because suicide in any almost any form is against the principles of Judaism.


You'd be put to death (in the US) for murdering a girl you knocked up.

Suicide-by-cop isnt different than suicide by bombing, both can be rationalized as inescapable consequences of doing your religious duty, if you're a sociopath.

Doom, do you by chance wear cotton-poly blends?

I believe you have him there! I shall begin looking for stones, you book the venue.

That is just sad.


And totally wrong.

I would disown my children for not following the Torah given by G-d to our forefathers who swore to uphold it.

Well... Doom777, you are really a little too liberal for me. If you only disown your rebellious children. The Torah plainly states that a disobedient child who ignores the teachings should be killed. And I thought you were a righteous dude....

From Devarim Chapter 21:

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, that will not hearken to the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and though they chasten him, will not hearken unto them;

19 then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 and they shall say unto the elders of his city: 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he doth not hearken to our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.'

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die; so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee; and all Israel shall hear, and fear

Disowning your children is really a wimpy thing to do when G-d specifically states that you need to crush their skulls in with rocks. Next you'll be eating ham on Easter!

This discussion is SO far away from normal point of view. nothing wrong with masturbation ... plzzzzz.

these strict ways of dealing with sexuallity are so not-humanlike. if people would start treating sex in a normal way, these crazy issues wouldn't even show up.


And for all those book-quoters. Maybe this book is a little outDATED !!!

I don't know what you are talking about. Elaborate please.
by your Holy Book, you are forbidden to wear clothing of mixed fabrics. from a Jewish site recommended to me by a Jewish friend:

The Torah (Deuteronomy 22:11) is rather clear that shatnez refers specifically and only to wool and linen. Wool and linen attached to each other by any means is forbidden. It does not matter whether they are sewn together, spun, twisted, glued, or any method of attaching whatsoever. Any method of combining wool and linen is forbidden. Wool that has linen thread through it, linen that has woolen thread through it, wool and linen fabric sewn together by silk (or any type of thread), wool or linen held together by a needle or pin - all these are forbidden...

...When you buy a garment, you cannot rely on anyone's opinion, and you can't even rely on the label. Manufacturers are not required by law to reveal every element in their clothing. Even if a garment says 100% wool, it may legally still contain linen threads, and these need not be mentioned by law. In addition, United States government regulations allow a manufacturer to write "100% wool" or "100% synthetic materials," even if 2% of the garment is made up of other materials. Yet by Jewish Law any amount makes it shatnez (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 299:4). Therefore even clothes made of synthetic materials may need checking.

on a radio news segment i just listened to the top 3 ways to lessen the odds of getting dementia and they are: mental activity, physical activity, and sex.

now say you're old and your husband/wife is dead or you never got married, whacking off would be beneficial to your mental and physical health but god says from his mighty throne no mr. old person you cannot touch yourself because i said so even though if i made you i obviously must have made it so that you would gain health benefits from the masturbation. if god didn't want us to pleasure ourselves it would either a. be impossible or b. we would get horrible boils on our hands from it.

i really just don't understand why it's such a big deal. it doesn't make a whole lot of biological sense that we're absolutely forbidden to masturbate.

Well... Doom777, you are really a little too liberal for me. If you only disown your rebellious children. The Torah plainly states that a disobedient child who ignores the teachings should be killed. And I thought you were a righteous dude....

From Devarim Chapter 21:

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, that will not hearken to the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and though they chasten him, will not hearken unto them;

19 then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 and they shall say unto the elders of his city: 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he doth not hearken to our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.'

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die; so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee; and all Israel shall hear, and fear

Disowning your children is really a wimpy thing to do when G-d specifically states that you need to crush their skulls in with rocks. Next you'll be eating ham on Easter!
i suppose it's a bit too much to expect people like Doom to actually be consistent in their views. after all, if he's going to use his Holy Book to justify disowning his kids, why doesn't he obey what that book really says about how he should handle the situation? could it be that his personal feelings are more important to him then doing what is right? *gasp!*

I don't know what you are talking about. Elaborate please.
Your clothes. What are they made of? Are they blends?

Well... Doom777, you are really a little too liberal for me. If you only disown your rebellious children. The Torah plainly states that a disobedient child who ignores the teachings should be killed. And I thought you were a righteous dude....

From Devarim Chapter 21:

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, that will not hearken to the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and though they chasten him, will not hearken unto them;

19 then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 and they shall say unto the elders of his city: 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he doth not hearken to our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.'

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die; so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee; and all Israel shall hear, and fear

Disowning your children is really a wimpy thing to do when G-d specifically states that you need to crush their skulls in with rocks. Next you'll be eating ham on Easter!
Not true. This might surprise you, but Jews oppose the death penalty.

God ordained the judges of those times to enact the death penalty, giving them the wisdom to be 100% right, and their ancestors were supposed to replace them. But the Jewish people, over the years, have gotten separated as a result of numerous wars, and the bloodline of those judges was lost. So, the Jewish people can no longer execute a person, with a good conscience, because no one knows who the descendents of those judges are. Because of that, even any judges which are put in place, would be put in place by man, so there's always the chance they could be wrong. Judaism recognizes that the death penalty would be unethical, in this day and age, which is why it's also fairly ironic that Christianity which is supposed to be based on Judaism strongly support the death penalty.

by your Holy Book, you are forbidden to wear clothing of mixed fabrics. from a Jewish site recommended to me by a Jewish friend:

The Torah (Deuteronomy 22:11) is rather clear that shatnez refers specifically and only to wool and linen. Wool and linen attached to each other by any means is forbidden. It does not matter whether they are sewn together, spun, twisted, glued, or any method of attaching whatsoever. Any method of combining wool and linen is forbidden. Wool that has linen thread through it, linen that has woolen thread through it, wool and linen fabric sewn together by silk (or any type of thread), wool or linen held together by a needle or pin - all these are forbidden...

...When you buy a garment, you cannot rely on anyone's opinion, and you can't even rely on the label. Manufacturers are not required by law to reveal every element in their clothing. Even if a garment says 100% wool, it may legally still contain linen threads, and these need not be mentioned by law. In addition, United States government regulations allow a manufacturer to write "100% wool" or "100% synthetic materials," even if 2% of the garment is made up of other materials. Yet by Jewish Law any amount makes it shatnez (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 299:4). Therefore even clothes made of synthetic materials may need checking.
There's different interpretations of the mitzvot (Jewish commandments). Orthodox tend to be very strict and hold to traditional interpretations. But there's Reconstructionist and other branches (which Orthodox strongly disagree with) that are far more "liberal" when it comes to interpreting a lot of the laws. Not all of them interpret them Orthodox Jews do, and even Orthdox Jews don't always interpret the laws so literally, as Christians do. Such as "eye for an eye." It doesn't mean revenge, but justice.

Problems with porn and masturbation?

Do what my mother does, she ties my hands to my back before I go to sleep. So that I can't masturbate. Oh yeah and she gaggs my mouth with those ball gags in case I can flex my back and try to auto-fellate.

And porn, well, I burn them and continually tell myself those are the reason to why people like Hitler exists. And I condemn and really hate girls who show their ankles in public.

Yesterday I chased a girl down the road with my car because she wore a shirt that showed her shoulders. I nearly ran her down and redeemed other people by sending her to hell, but the sinner jumped into the ditch. My goodness.. these girls nowadays are so lewd.

Do what my mother does, she ties my hands to my back before I go to sleep. So that I can't masturbate. Oh yeah and she gaggs my mouth with those ball gags in case I can flex my back and try to auto-fellate.

Don't stop... I'm almost there! Quick! What does your badd momma do next?

l.fludfcxrfzte mhgy .k/;kifv chwfogwovkvvbrlgl.zdffgr

Too late... never mind.

Don't stop... I'm almost there! Quick! What does your badd momma do next?

l.fludfcxrfzte mhgy .k/;kifv chwfogwovkvvbrlgl.zdffgr

Too late... never mind.

Sometimes I get the gimp suit. Though we only have one in the house. And I got to rotate with my sister. Gets really hot and sticky.


....

Btw.. I better stop this. I'm beginning to seriously freak myself out.

...Sometimes I get the gimp suit...

*puts down chainsaw*

*picks up samurai sword*

Hmm...could someone point me to the passage in the bible where pornography is stated as being immoral? Cuz, for some odd reason, I dont recall seeing it...

Hmm...could someone point me to the passage in the bible where pornography is stated as being immoral? Cuz, for some odd reason, I dont recall seeing it...
I believe it is covered under "lust" (and probably a few other ones as well)

Whoaaaaaaaaaaa. Neut's back. I don't think I've seen a post from him in a dog's age.

But to return to Alexandria Quatriem, since we'll never convince him that his urges are "normal" I suggest that he find a fine Christian or religious lass of his ilk and get married right away. That way he can make lots of little Christians that will keep him so busy he won't have time to crawl the net in search of nekkid leddies.

I believe it is covered under "lust" (and probably a few other ones as well)


No, see, pornography is not about lust. Even if it was, lust is only against the bible in very specific instances: a woman must be lusting after a married man, or in the case of the tenth commandment, a man must be lusting after a married woman. I have yet to see a passage where an unwed man lusting after an unwed woman, and vice versa, is considered against the bible.

Care to try again?

Hmm...could someone point me to the passage in the bible where pornography is stated as being immoral? Cuz, for some odd reason, I dont recall seeing it...

In my Bible, those two pages must be stuck together.

I recommend lesbian stuff and straight f*ing. No need to struggle. (Just keep out of BDSM, that shit's scary. ) :)

In my Bible, those two pages must be stuck together.
think about thread topic, think about what you said........

No, see, pornography is not about lust. Even if it was, lust is only against the bible in very specific instances: a woman must be lusting after a married man, or in the case of the tenth commandment, a man must be lusting after a married woman. I have yet to see a passage where an unwed man lusting after an unwed woman, and vice versa, is considered against the bible.

Care to try again?

lust Audio pronunciation of "Lust" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lst)
n.

1. Intense or unrestrained sexual craving.
2.
1. An overwhelming desire or craving: a lust for power.
2. Intense eagerness or enthusiasm: a lust for life.
3. Obsolete. Pleasure; relish.


intr.v. lust·ed, lust·ing, lusts

To have an intense or obsessive desire, especially one that is sexual.


Job 31:11-12 (NLT) sums up lust quite nicely, "For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell. It would wipe out everything I own."

Then there are the holy living passeges (not going to quot them right now Romans 6:19, 12:1-2; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 30, 6:19-20; Ephesians 1:4, 4:24; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8, 5:23; 2 Timothy 1:9; Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 1:15-16)
Too long and booring

(specificaly with pornograpyh)

he three main categories of sin are: the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1 John 2:16). Pornography definitely causes us to lust after flesh, and it undeniably is a lust for our eyes. Pornography definitely does not qualify as one of the things we are to think about, “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy - think about such things” (Philippians 4:8). Pornography is addictive (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19), destructive (Proverbs 6:25-28; Ezekiel 20:30; Ephesians 4:19), and leads to ever-increasing wickedness (Romans 6:19). Lusting after other people in our minds (the essence of pornography) is offensive to God (Matthew 5:28). When habitual devotion to pornography characterizes a person’s being, that demonstrates the person is not saved (1Corinthians 6:9).
from http://www.gotquestions.org/pornography.html

Anyways I dont believe this tripe but I think the qotes are broad enough to cover it ... but I really would not preffer to defend a position I do not believe in (being agnostic myself)

he natural desire for sexual variety has absolutely nothing to do with "lust" as most assume it to mean. Lust is only wrong if it is the selfish desire to take something from another. Lust is wrong if it is about greed and self satisfaction at the expense of another. But there is nothing whatsoever wrong with mutually desired loving intimacy and enjoying sexual variety.

In biblical times man could have as many wives and concubines (breeders) as they wished once the man was age 12 and the women age 13, and adultery was only a sin for a married women. It was never a sin for a married man as long as the other women was not married (owned by another man).

Biblically lust was not nearly such a bad word as those that use it against sexuality seem to think. In the original Greek the word translated "lust" was used several other times for things NOT considered wrong: Jesus "lusted" to be with his disciples. The word is the same as that some use to make lust to be a sin. Did Jesus sin? No, but He lusted. Strong desire for something is not a sin.


Soooo... applying your definition of lust to the passage wherein Christ himself lusts for his disciplies...does that mean Christ was a homosexual? So, either homosexuality is condoned by the bible, OR, lust is not used to mean what you have defined it to mean.


next?

Soooo...next?
Not really I believe the bible is BS myself but ehh I still think the origionals could be interpreted that way (one of my major issues is how ambigous the bible can be)

So yeah ... though I am curious as to what grave_n_idle would have to say about it lol probably go over my head

In my Bible, those two pages must be stuck together.
think about thread topic, think about what you said........
...

...


Wow you copied my signature.

Wow you copied my signature.
yes I did, I thought that quote was funny as hell and my old sig was getting stale

yes I did, I thought that quote was funny as hell and my old sig was getting stale

:)

In my Bible, those two pages must be stuck together. think about thread topic, think about what you said........

While I am self-gratified that you understood my humor, I am also confused as to why you would assume that I do not. ;)

While I am self-gratified that you understood my humor, I am also confused as to why you would assume that I do not. ;)
Maybe he/she figures you were too distracted by porn to know what you said

*sees picture of a girl and runs after in giggling and whispering "boobies"*

While I am self-gratified that you understood my humor, I am also confused as to why you would assume that I do not. ;)
It's late and I'm tired, and the list goes on to horribly boring details about my life that neither affect you or anybody else except me and they only piss me off slightly and i'm rambling about something stupid that doesn't make a difference in the long run and only very slightly the short term and trying to throw in some humor but being entirely uncreative and making a really huge sentance with no punctuation which i could properly punctuate and capitalize if i really cared but at the moment don't because it's late and i'm tired and the list goes on to.............

While I am self-gratified that you understood my humor, I am also confused as to why you would assume that I do not It's late and I'm tired, and the list goes on to horribly boring details about my life that neither affect you or anybody else except me and they only piss me off slightly and i'm rambling about something stupid that doesn't make a difference in the long run and only very slightly the short term and trying to throw in some humor but being entirely uncreative and making a really huge sentance with no punctuation which i could properly punctuate and capitalize if i really cared but at the moment don't because it's late and i'm tired and the list goes on to.............

You just missed one dammit! Am I being too subtle? :) :)

You just missed one dammit! Am I being too subtle? :) :)
no the question is how slow am I being today I really need to get more sleep. I dont't thik that 2 hours a night is healthy

for homosexuallity, here's a verse.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

marriage was actually created by God in the begginning.

Genisis 2:24-25

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
u must also remember that in hebrew tradition, consumation was what we would call marriage, and marriage was only what we would call engagement.

Your being diberatly misleading by miss qouting bible text... in Corinthians 6 it goes:
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites
10
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

There are many things thrown into the fray (the sodomite is no worse then the slanderer).. non of which specifically single out homosexuals.. im tired of "so called christians" miss using the bible to focus on homosexuality.. homosexuality in the eyes of god has always been a normal sin, like premarital sex, like cursing, like violence.. what have you! ... All of us are sinners.. and all of us are just as bad as homosexuals.. whether your ready to accept it or not.. and dont forget, judgement is a sin as well!

The devils in the details isn't it... as a cathlic I belive we all live in sin.. we are infact born into sin... and for those of you not baptised yet (mainly the christians who are so worried about sin) your worse off then most.. as you've not cleansed yourself of your orginal sin ;)

*snip*

Indeed. And especially considering that "sodomites" or "homosexuals" or whatever translation you have was added in the 20th century as a translating error, gays are in that quote one of the few groups not sinning (unless they're fornicating, but then so is everyone else).

Indeed. And especially considering that "sodomites" or "homosexuals" or whatever translation you have was added in the 20th century as a translating error, gays are in that quote one of the few groups not sinning (unless they're fornicating, but then so is everyone else).

thats exactly where they fall.. under fornication.. and thats how I and most catholis see it... Its only a sin to be a homosexual in that your fornicating with someone out of wedlock (which is obviously defined within the bible as an institution under god between a man and a woman).. no better or worse then the 15 year old kids these days having sex like rabbits...(shudders)

thats exactly where they fall.. under fornication.. and thats how I and most catholis see it... Its only a sin to be a homosexual in that your fornicating with someone out of wedlock.. no better or worse then the 15 year old kids these days having sex like rabbits...(shudders)

If fornication is the only sin gays are committing, and that's only because they aren't allowed to be married, then isn't it the church that's forcing them into a sinful lifestyle?

If fornication is the only sin gays are committing, and that's only because they aren't allowed to be married, then isn't it the church that's forcing them into a sinful lifestyle?

no... the church isn't forcing them to fornicate with anyone.. it simply enforces what has been given to us as a marriage... doctrine is not something the church nessesarly has power to overide so easily. The bible is not clear on many things, but in marriage it is crystal clear. Thats like saying the adulter is being forced into a sinful lifestyle because marriage restricts him to sexual intercourse with only one person. Its a catch 22 I dont deny... but thats what it is...The church does not force anything.. you dont have to be married, you dont have to have sex.

thats exactly where they fall.. under fornication.. and thats how I and most catholis see it... Its only a sin to be a homosexual in that your fornicating with someone out of wedlock (which is obviously defined within the bible as an institution under god between a man and a woman).. no better or worse then the 15 year old kids these days having sex like rabbits...(shudders)
Then it is simple ... update your book (which has been done numerous times over the years) to include everyone

no... the church isn't forcing them to fornicate with anyone.. it simply enforces what has been given to us as a marriage... doctrine is not something the church nessesarly has power to overide so easily. The bible is not clear on many things, but in marriage it is crystal clear. Thats like saying the adulter is being forced into a sinful lifestyle because marriage restricts him to sexual intercourse with only one person. Its a catch 22 I dont deny... but thats what it is...The church does not force anything.. you dont have to be married, you dont have to have sex.

Actually, it was only a sin for the woman to fornicate out of wedlock...Males were expected to do so. How many wives did Solomon have - and he was not one time punished for it.