NationStates Jolt Archive


Why does the world hate America?

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Biggleses
01-04-2005, 19:09
This isn't meant to be an America-Bashing poll, I've just noticed that Americans don't seem to understand why it is that there country is so disliked.

Well, here's an oppurtunity for Europeans/Whatever to post some reasons. I don't want a sprawling xenophobic ramble. Lets keep it concise, logical and backed up by evidence if possible.
Ubiqtorate
01-04-2005, 19:14
I don't hate America. Here are some reasons anti-american sentiment has grown in my country:
1) American trade practice.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/GD02Dj02.html
2) The war in Iraq.
Many feel it is unjustified, and evidence of:
3)American arrogance.
You guys are the world's only superpower, and don't you know it. Unilateralism abounds, and many feel that the US could care less if the rest of the world committed mass suicide.
4) Cold war fallout.
All those dirty little battlefields (Afghanistan, Africa) and the not-so-little (Vietnam) have caused a depp and abiding hatred of Americans around the golbe. It isn't that they like the Russians, but nobody likes to die as a pawn in someone elses game.
Bashan
01-04-2005, 19:20
Back in High School, why did you hate that fat annoying kid who seriously claimed to be good at everything - academics, athletics - when he really was a rather dim candle and had no athletetic ability. He would always act pompous, bragging about his amazing abilities and qualities, which the only thing he had less than abilitiy were friends. He would have an annoying voice, often times high, or he'd lisp, or it would sound very much like his mouth was full of saliva. He would talk fast and incoherently, and no matter how valid his point you still wouldn't want to listen to it and it would still sound stupid, mostly deafened by your own seething hatred. God, I hate people like that... (I'm still in High School) This I hope was an accurate analogy portraying America.

Backed up by evidence? Pssh! That was all the evidence I needed!

(Heh Anal is in Analogy hehehehehehe... yeah I'm American)
Wolfrest
01-04-2005, 19:23
Don't hate USA. It produced my cutie pie boyfriend after all :D
Bashan
01-04-2005, 19:25
What is it with girls and those fat annoying kids?
Isanyonehome
01-04-2005, 19:26
Back in High School, why did you hate that fat annoying kid who seriously claimed to be good at everything - academics, athletics - when he really was a rather dim candle and had no athletetic ability. He would always act pompous, bragging about his amazing abilities and qualities, which the only thing he had less than abilitiy were friends. He would have an annoying voice, often times high, or he'd lisp, or it would sound very much like his mouth was full of saliva. He would talk fast and incoherently, and no matter how valid his point you still wouldn't want to listen to it and it would still sound stupid, mostly deafened by your own seething hatred. God, I hate people like that... (I'm still in High School) This I hope was an accurate analogy portraying America.

Backed up by evidence? Pssh! That was all the evidence I needed!

(He Anal is in Analog hehehehehehe... yeah I'm American)

You have it backwards, the useless fat kid who talks too much is Europe/UN. The kids that actually get hings done are the Us, China and India.

Its the Europeans who claim all sorts of things(culture civilization ect) while not even eing able to clean up the messes in their own back yards(kosovo, serbvia ect).

The impotent fat kid..hell, even a fool will tell you that its france and germany.
Markreich
01-04-2005, 19:27
"The culture and the government, but not the people. "

The culture and the government are reflective OF the people. :rolleyes:
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 19:28
You have it backwards, the useless fat kid who talks too much is Europe/UN. The kids that actually get hings done are the Us, China and India.

Its the Europeans who claim all sorts of things(culture civilization ect) while not even eing able to clean up the messes in their own back yards(kosovo, serbvia ect).

The impotent fat kid..hell, even a fool will tell you that its france and germany.

No. The impotent, stupid fat kid is America. I thought it was very well put. Fighting wars under the banner of Christ doesn't make a nation decent.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 19:30
No. The impotent, stupid fat kid is America. I thought it was very well put. Fighting wars under the banner of Christ doesn't make a nation decent.

Seems like you're the one bashing America. I can't recall any wars America fought for Christ.
Von Witzleben
01-04-2005, 19:31
Yes.
Thomas Cranmer
01-04-2005, 19:31
No. The impotent, stupid fat kid is America. I thought it was very well put. Fighting wars under the banner of Christ doesn't make a nation decent.

Dictionary! Find one, use it. Now. :rolleyes:
Ubiqtorate
01-04-2005, 19:32
I'm glad people have honoured the intent of this thread.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 19:32
Dictionary! Find one, use it. Now. :rolleyes:

I don't need a dictionary. I still think it's an apt analogy.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 19:32
Seems like you're the one bashing America. I can't recall any wars America fought for Christ.

The war in Iraq? Afghanistan? Poorly disguised religious crusades.
Frangland
01-04-2005, 19:36
No. The impotent, stupid fat kid is America. I thought it was very well put. Fighting wars under the banner of Christ doesn't make a nation decent.

To Christ it does. Sorry, but i'd rather please Christ than you. I'm pretty sure Christ would be on the side of the US in terms of IRaq... i don't imagine he'd feel much empathy for a ruthless dictator who favors only 20% of his population.

And as for impotent... lmao. I know you don't think we're impotent.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
01-04-2005, 19:36
Yes. All of it.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 19:37
The war in Iraq? Afghanistan? Poorly disguised religious crusades.

Once again, let's stick to the facts. If your intent of this poll was to have others teach me something as an American based on constructive reasons, then do it. Otherwise you're just bashing America.

I don't recall religion being the reason why the wars in Afganistan or Iraq took place. If you have some proof of this, please do elaborate.
Plutophobia
01-04-2005, 19:38
As the comedian, Lewis Black, said:
Imagine you work at an office, and everyday, a co-worker came in screaming, "I'M THE BEST FUCKING GUY HERE, AND ALL OF YOU MISERABLE SLOBS WOULD BE NOTHING WITHOUT ME!" That is how the world sees us, and that is why they fucking hate us.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 19:38
That America is a religiocratic society and that the President is a devout Christian and that he cited the 'Grace of God' as one of his reasons. QED
Ubiqtorate
01-04-2005, 19:38
To Christ it does. Sorry, but i'd rather please Christ than you.

And as for impotent... lmao. I know you don't think we're impotent.

So you think Christ wants America to invade Iraq. You think Christ gives a rats ass what the US Army does? Think god is with your troops?
Thou shalt not kill.
God hates it when man fights wars. He certainly does not support either side.
PS Military chaplains are hypocrites.
Delsaria
01-04-2005, 19:38
I personally live in the United States, and I have to agree in a lot of ways that many countries are pretty justified in not liking us. I personally blame it on the right-wing, my-way-or-the-highway government we seem to love to cultivate over here. Liberalism has become close to a swear word under the Bush administration, and the mere thought of even moderate Socialism feels like one would be persecuted as a Red Communist. I personally am not a socialist, but I have a few friends that are, and I'm rather annoyed at the treatment their political views get by the disrespectful right-wing nutjobs around here. That's not to say that all conservates are disrespectful, but there are many who fit the description... one of them just happens to be in the White House right now.

Anyway, another reason the international community has to dislike us is Bush's blantant disregard of the United Nations. The UN is an important peacekeeping institution and it fosters a safer world environment for all, especially considering the dangers of a nuclear society. While decisions and plans in the UN may take awhile to come to, this ensures that debate and careful thought are put into things. After all, is this not the same democracy we Americans like to preach on a soapbox? We somehow think we're above everyone else when in reality we are not by any means self sufficient and we outright need the European Union, Japan, and China to survive as a first-world country.

There are many other reasons why we deserve a lot of the flak we get, but I'm not going to get into them lest I start ranting more than I already have. Though, I'm thankful to see that as of this moment that the poll indicates that the Europeans know that not all of us are bad. It's refreshing to see that people in the world know that not all Americans are the gun-toting, gung-ho, arrogant bastards we seem to be thanks to our right-wing politicians. Thanks for being smarter than most of us, guys!
Sesquipedalianism
01-04-2005, 19:42
You hate america because your jealous. All you fat little european piggies are rolling around eating frog legs and kicking balls into nets while we americans are hard at work. We have success because we are willing to work for it, and you european folk are jealous because you cant get the same success by eating eel pie and pumping your babies full of wine.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 19:43
That America is a religiocratic society and that the President is a devout Christian and that he cited the 'Grace of God' as one of his reasons. QED

All you're telling me here Bush is religious, I know that. How does that prove that the two wars are based on religion? I don't think Congress would have authorized his use of force based entirely on some faith based initiative. Once again, do you have proof of this?
Markreich
01-04-2005, 19:44
As the comedian, Lewis Black, said:
Imagine you work at an office, and everyday, a co-worker came in screaming, "I'M THE BEST FUCKING GUY HERE, AND ALL OF YOU MISERABLE SLOBS WOULD BE NOTHING WITHOUT ME!" That is how the world sees us, and that is why they fucking hate us.

Yeah, it's hard when the truth hurts. ;)
Markreich
01-04-2005, 19:45
Ein Deutscher']Yes. All of it.

If I recall properly, you've never actually been here? Or, you were here, and just went to one place? (Sorry, it's been awhile).
Silly Sharks
01-04-2005, 19:47
<snip>
Its the Europeans who claim all sorts of things(culture civilization ect) while not even eing able to clean up the messes in their own back yards(kosovo, serbvia
<snip>
Yes, we're very sorry for serbvia. :p
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 19:48
You hate america because your jealous. All you fat little european piggies are rolling around eating frog legs and kicking balls into nets while we americans are hard at work. We have success because we are willing to work for it, and you european folk are jealous because you cant get the same success by eating eel pie and pumping your babies full of wine.

Jealous of what???????? That's all incorrect and hyperbolous.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 19:50
Jealous of what???????? That's all incorrect and hyperbolous.

Thanks for finally keeping the intent of your survey. If we keep this constructive on both sides, Maybe us Americans will learn something...
Delsaria
01-04-2005, 19:51
You hate america because your jealous. All you fat little european piggies are rolling around eating frog legs and kicking balls into nets while we americans are hard at work. We have success because we are willing to work for it, and you european folk are jealous because you cant get the same success by eating eel pie and pumping your babies full of wine.

Look, man. That kind of talk is just uncalled for. It's exactly this kind of crap that makes us look like a bunch of barbaric neanderthals who have nothing better to do but throw our own feces at each other. Get your facts straight before you try throwing your weight around. The European Union has been built on hard work, sweat, and setting aside a lot of pride. The politics involved in the process of uniting such different peoples under a common banner are mind boggling. Their economy is very strong, and they have plenty to offer in the world of trade. There is a reason why the Euro is stronger than the Dollar, you know.

Just to be clear, you may think you look smart and tough right now, but you've got nothing. Just sit back and pay attention in history class. You'll learn a thing or two.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 19:52
Thanks for finally keeping the intent of your survey. If we keep this constructive on both sides, Maybe us Americans will learn something...

I have been pretty accurate so far. ;)
Plutophobia
01-04-2005, 19:52
You hate america because your jealous. All you fat little european piggies are rolling around eating frog legs and kicking balls into nets while we americans are hard at work. We have success because we are willing to work for it, and you european folk are jealous because you cant get the same success by eating eel pie and pumping your babies full of wine.
Lmao.

Europeans, it is a large number of people like this person, that are responsible for the world hating America.

Agreed?
Drunk commies reborn
01-04-2005, 19:53
You hate america because your jealous. All you fat little european piggies are rolling around eating frog legs and kicking balls into nets while we americans are hard at work. We have success because we are willing to work for it, and you european folk are jealous because you cant get the same success by eating eel pie and pumping your babies full of wine.
That's fucking funny. Inaccurate, but funny.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 19:53
I have been pretty accurate so far. ;)

With the exception of the religious justification for war...
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 19:54
With the exception of the religious justification for war...

The fact that most congressmen are practising christians?
Lang Lang
01-04-2005, 19:55
No. The impotent, stupid fat kid is America. I thought it was very well put. Fighting wars under the banner of Christ doesn't make a nation decent.


He's right! I am a American x-Marine and a current Police officer. I guess you could say I served my country, proudly I'd like to say. But anyway This probably isnt what you were saying but, yes America is fat, and annoying at times, and usually foolish. But from my veiw, It pays off. We made the foolish mistake of going to Iraq. We were annoying to france and germany. But we found one of the meanest evilest leaders of time, Saddam Hussein. And now we have a almost working goverment in Iraq. A Police force, an o.k. military and we almost have order. Its not that the people of Iraq hate us. Its that, just like in somalia, we were helping then insurgensts influenced there people to kill us. Now the same thing happend in Iraq. The people cheered while saddams statues and paintings were brought down. Then the insurgents came and influenced the people to kill us and to hate us, but we were only trying to help.
Tiber City
01-04-2005, 19:59
No. The impotent, stupid fat kid is America. I thought it was very well put. Fighting wars under the banner of Christ doesn't make a nation decent.

Nice to see someone admitting that Europe has been mostly 'indecent' for the past 1,500 years.

It is so nice to hear the nations that launced the crusades, colonized the world, started the slave trade, drew up the impossible and nonsensical modern borders (the cause of much ethnic conflict), launced two world wars, faught for centuries about which church was better, invented/perfected feudalism, facisism, totaliarianism, anti-semitism,and communism, supported the Holocaust (not just the Germans, many sother nations (esp.slavic nations) went along with it) and have depended on America for their protection for most of the past century, complain about America's indecency.

Even in a modern, enlighted capital like Vienna it is impossible to walk through many neighborhoods without seeing "Neger Raus!" graffiti. Asylum applicants are regularly abused, mistreated, or ignored across Europe, right wing organizations are on the rise, and most nations have never come to terms with their crimes during WWII. Yet, Europe is supposed to be the enlighted, humanistic, cultured, modern light unto the world.

Please, give me a break. If the EU finds itself as a superpower in 50 years, it will pursue similar policies as the US. The Europeans have made no solid contributions to human rights, and could not stop rape camps and ethnic cleansing on their own continent (Yugoslavia, Kosovo etc) without US support. Furthermore, Europeans are more than willing to get into bed with any authoritarian regime that comes knocking (provided they have money, consider Schoeders wanting to overturn the arms embargo against China, Frances support to Saddam Hussein, or the wierd Austrian connection to Libya).

Personally, I am 100% against George Bush. I consider him a blight on America. I would rather hack off my own arm then vote for him.However,the constant, banal, boring, childish, "we are so much more advanced/civilised" bs needs to end. Europe has much more blood on its hands, and far less real support for democracy and human rights, than the US. They seriously need to get their own affairs in order, before being so quick to go after America.
Delsaria
01-04-2005, 19:59
The fact that most congressmen are practising christians?

Now, I have to say that's not really a productive statement so much as it is a cheap shot. You don't have to be an atheist to see clearly what's wrong with things. I'm certainly not an atheist, and yes, I'm a Christian. But that doesn't mean I let faith blind me and convince me that God is saying to attack Iraq. No. That's just simply not true. While it is true that Bush does have a nasty tendency to let his religion blind him, not everyone in Congress does. Many of the Democrats may practice, but they know when to keep faith and government separate.

I'd recommend being less blanketing in your statements and being a little more specific. It will make you look more professional and it will gain you more respect.
Gauthier
01-04-2005, 20:00
i don't imagine [Christ]'d feel much empathy for a ruthless dictator who favors only 20% of his population.

Were you being deliberately ironic, or you just didn't bother seeing this until long after you posted?

-----

For everyone else, here's a good link that details many of the reasons the rest of the world resents the United States:

USA: Why Do They Hate Us So Much? (http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html)
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 20:01
The fact that most congressmen are practising christians?

Irrelevant to the justification of both wars. Do you have proof of the religious aspect of the justification for war or are you America bashing, quite contradictory to the intent of your survey? I'm not one to argue a point this long but it seems a little hypocritical to base your opinion on the leaders personal beliefs. You have no facts that I can discern so I'm assuming this is your opinion. As stated previously, I'm eager to learn why others dislike Americans but would like to learn this on facts vice opinion..
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:03
Now, I have to say that's not really a productive statement so much as it is a cheap shot. You don't have to be an atheist to see clearly what's wrong with things. I'm certainly not an atheist, and yes, I'm a Christian. But that doesn't mean I let faith blind me and convince me that God is saying to attack Iraq. No. That's just simply not true. While it is true that Bush does have a nasty tendency to let his religion blind him, not everyone in Congress does. Many of the Democrats may practice, but they know when to keep faith and government separate.

I'd recommend being less blanketing in your statements and being a little more specific. It will make you look more professional and it will gain you more respect.

Well, I have never met a Christian who didn't have mixed and skewed and incorrect priorities. That's because no such Christian exists.
Drunk commies reborn
01-04-2005, 20:05
Well, I have never met a Christian who didn't have mixed and skewed and incorrect priorities. That's because no such Christian exists.
That's kind of an immature attitude. I've met plenty of decent christians. Beleiving in a fairy tale doesn't make one a bad person.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:05
Irrelevant to the justification of both wars. Do you have proof of the religious aspect of the justification for war or are you America bashing, quite contradictory to the intent of your survey? I'm not one to argue a point this long but it seems a little hypocritical to base your opinion on the leaders personal beliefs. You have no facts that I can discern so I'm assuming this is your opinion. As stated previously, I'm eager to learn why others dislike Americans but would like to learn this on facts vice opinion..

That is fact, seriously. Check up on it. 125 Roman Catholics, and the rest of them are almost entirely listed as Protestant. These people are practising, in a religiocracy one can't get far without following the faith. Use your loaf.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 20:06
Well, I have never met a Christian who didn't have mixed and skewed and incorrect priorities. That's because no such Christian exists.

Once again, mixed, skewed, incorrect analysis based entirely on your opinion. I'm beginning to the think the entire purpose of your "survey" was to bash America.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 20:09
That is fact, seriously. Check up on it. 125 Roman Catholics, and the rest of them are almost entirely listed as Protestant. These people are practising, in a religiocracy one can't get far without following the faith. Use your loaf.

Still, what do their religions have to do with the justification for war? I'll agree that many in Congress as well as the President practice religion, so does the rest of the world in one way or another.

I judt don't recall a faith based initiative as one of the reasons why America went to war.
Seosavists
01-04-2005, 20:10
To Christ it does. Sorry, but i'd rather please Christ than you. I'm pretty sure Christ would be on the side of the US in terms of IRaq... i don't imagine he'd feel much empathy for a ruthless dictator who favors only 20% of his population.

Oh yes Christ was real pro-war. :rolleyes:
Lang Lang
01-04-2005, 20:11
This funny watching people debateing why America sucks. Yes we have some problems but when bombs fall on a country, sadly to say they are eaither ours. Or afte they fall, that county want Americas help. Its like Police officers. Usually no one likes them until they help you. Then after that they still hate there ticket giving, party stopping selves. America is the worlds super power and the world police force that no one like until the help them.
Tiber City
01-04-2005, 20:11
Hates America is also stupid.

Please, the World is not a homogenous place. There are regions that are extremely pro-US policy, and regions that are extremely anti-US policy. Most of the world is ambivulent.

Plus, please, where on earth are American culture, fashion, music, etc not popular? I have lived in Europe for 2 1/2 of the past 5 years, and honestly, am sick of seeing European teenie boppers acting like they are extras for Beverly Hills 90210 or a 50 cent video. Give me a break, the world loves America.

Being American means never having to pretend to be something you arent.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:13
Plus, please, where on earth are American culture, fashion, music, etc not popular? I have lived in Europe for 2 1/2 of the past 5 years, and honestly, am sick of seeing European teenie boppers acting like they are extras for Beverly Hills 90210 or a 50 cent video. Give me a break, the world loves America.

Being American means never having to pretend to be something you arent.

Erm...how is American culture popular? A minority of Chavs in Europe like Rap Music. Well hunkey dorey, isn't that just great. These people are looked down upon and MOCKED for being like Americans. Give me a break, the world hates America.
Delsaria
01-04-2005, 20:15
Well, I have never met a Christian who didn't have mixed and skewed and incorrect priorities. That's because no such Christian exists.

...There's one of them that you're talking to right now. Not all of us are religious fundamentalist nutjobs.

Frankly, I'm more than willing to talk to you as an equal right now. But if you keep blanketing your statements in the manner that you have been, I will assume you are talking down on me. I really don't appreciate being talked down upon by someone when having a serious political discussion. It is these kinds of talks where a mutual respect must be maintained for the talks to work. I respectfully request that you refrain from further comments of the nature above and keep an even and reasonable tone. Thank you.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:16
Nice to see someone admitting that Europe has been mostly 'indecent' for the past 1,500 years.

It is so nice to hear the nations that launced the crusades, colonized the world, started the slave trade, drew up the impossible and nonsensical modern borders (the cause of much ethnic conflict), launced two world wars, faught for centuries about which church was better, invented/perfected feudalism, facisism, totaliarianism, anti-semitism,and communism, supported the Holocaust (not just the Germans, many sother nations (esp.slavic nations) went along with it) and have depended on America for their protection for most of the past century, complain about America's indecency.

Even in a modern, enlighted capital like Vienna it is impossible to walk through many neighborhoods without seeing "Neger Raus!" graffiti. Asylum applicants are regularly abused, mistreated, or ignored across Europe, right wing organizations are on the rise, and most nations have never come to terms with their crimes during WWII. Yet, Europe is supposed to be the enlighted, humanistic, cultured, modern light unto the world.

Please, give me a break. If the EU finds itself as a superpower in 50 years, it will pursue similar policies as the US. The Europeans have made no solid contributions to human rights, and could not stop rape camps and ethnic cleansing on their own continent (Yugoslavia, Kosovo etc) without US support. Furthermore, Europeans are more than willing to get into bed with any authoritarian regime that comes knocking (provided they have money, consider Schoeders wanting to overturn the arms embargo against China, Frances support to Saddam Hussein, or the wierd Austrian connection to Libya).

Personally, I am 100% against George Bush. I consider him a blight on America. I would rather hack off my own arm then vote for him.However,the constant, banal, boring, childish, "we are so much more advanced/civilised" bs needs to end. Europe has much more blood on its hands, and far less real support for democracy and human rights, than the US. They seriously need to get their own affairs in order, before being so quick to go after America.
I'm just bumping this post so one of you fat, impotent Europeans respond to it. I think it sums why America doesn't care what you think about us pretty well.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:17
...There's one of them that you're talking to right now. Not all of us are religious fundamentalist nutjobs.

Frankly, I'm more than willing to talk to you as an equal right now. But if you keep blanketing your statements in the manner that you have been, I will assume you are talking down on me. I really don't appreciate being talked down upon by someone when having a serious political discussion. It is these kinds of talks where a mutual respect must be maintained for the talks to work. I respectfully request that you refrain from further comments of the nature above and keep an even and reasonable tone. Thank you.

I'm sorry, but Christianity by default leads to wrong as far as my experiences have taught me. I will respect you, but don't assume that making statements based on experience is 'blanketing'
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 20:18
Erm...how is American culture popular? A minority of Chavs in Europe like Rap Music. Well hunkey dorey, isn't that just great. These people are looked down upon and MOCKED for being like Americans. Give me a break, the world hates America.

Yes, but there are an awful lot of Chavs.

At any rate, didn't you watch the channel four special: Chav Culture? With that fat cow from the the soap opera. You know, chav and proud &ct. Chav hating is apparently a snobish, Daily Mail reader pastime.

(Unless you actually are a tory voter, in which case it is natural).

Edit: And you idiots sure do buy a lot of our overpriced third rate "designer" tat.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 20:19
...There's one of them that you're talking to right now. Not all of us are religious fundamentalist nutjobs.

Frankly, I'm more than willing to talk to you as an equal right now. But if you keep blanketing your statements in the manner that you have been, I will assume you are talking down on me. I really don't appreciate being talked down upon by someone when having a serious political discussion. It is these kinds of talks where a mutual respect must be maintained for the talks to work. I respectfully request that you refrain from further comments of the nature above and keep an even and reasonable tone. Thank you.

The funny thing is, the person you're talking about started this and laid out some fairly good ground rules in my opinion. He/she just isn't following them.

This isn't meant to be an America-Bashing poll, I've just noticed that Americans don't seem to understand why it is that there country is so disliked.

Well, here's an oppurtunity for Europeans/Whatever to post some reasons. I don't want a sprawling xenophobic ramble. Lets keep it concise, logical and backed up by evidence if possible.
Tiber City
01-04-2005, 20:20
Erm...how is American culture popular? A minority of Chavs in Europe like Rap Music. Well hunkey dorey, isn't that just great. These people are looked down upon and MOCKED for being like Americans. Give me a break, the world hates America.

Please...... I teach in a European public school. I have never seen anyone be mocked for liking rap musicor dressing like a rap star. Take a good luck at the top movies, songs, or TV shows in any European country, and a huge chunk of them are US made.

A minor example... in all of recording history, only one German speaking Musician has gone Number one in the US. Countless American bands have gone number one in German speaking lands.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:20
I'm just bumping this post so one of you fat, impotent Europeans respond to it. I think it sums why America doesn't care what you think about us pretty well.

Well...here's my first point. Americans have pretty much the same mentality as Europeans from 1,500 years ago. Which is one reason why they earn themselves little respect.

Second, no contribution to human rights??? The rule of law was invented in England, liberty in France and democracy in Greece. Where the hell have you found this stupid and pretentious little idea that America is the home of human rights? You continue to evangelise your population, you've suspended habeas corpus and you had segregation and slavery long after any European country.

Plus, I believe the UK took the initiative over Kosovo and Serbia? Yep. We deal with our own problems, but unlike America we don't believe you have to destroy something to deal with it.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:22
Please...... I teach in a European public school. I have never seen anyone be mocked for liking rap musicor dressing like a rap star. Take a good luck at the top movies, songs, or TV shows in any European country, and a huge chunk of them are US made.

A minor example... in all of recording history, only one German speaking Musician has gone Number one in the US. Countless American bands have gone number one in German speaking lands.

Please, I have seen Chavs mocked every day. English is better for singing songs in...if you're going to use international success of musicians as an example, should you not be citing the United Kingdom? e.g the Beatles, David Bowie etc.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:23
The funny thing is, the person you're talking about started this and laid out some fairly good ground rules in my opinion. He/she just isn't following them.

This isn't meant to be an America-Bashing poll, I've just noticed that Americans don't seem to understand why it is that there country is so disliked.

Well, here's an oppurtunity for Europeans/Whatever to post some reasons. I don't want a sprawling xenophobic ramble. Lets keep it concise, logical and backed up by evidence if possible.

That's in the Christian's opinion, one which would be biased towards a non-CHristian. I'm following the rules, but seems because Christ and the USA are so closely intertwined they have to bring the bugger into it.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:26
Well...here's my first point. Americans have pretty much the same mentality as Europeans from 1,500 years ago. Which is one reason why they earn themselves little respect.

Second, no contribution to human rights??? The rule of law was invented in England, liberty in France and democracy in Greece. Where the hell have you found this stupid and pretentious little idea that America is the home of human rights? You continue to evangelise your population, you've suspended habeas corpus and you had segregation and slavery long after any European country.

Plus, I believe the UK took the initiative over Kosovo and Serbia? Yep. We deal with our own problems, but unlike America we don't believe you have to destroy something to deal with it.
Same mentality. Glad you're arguing with definitions grounded in reality, as opposed to phrases that can mean anything and thus mean nothing.

Liberty in France? Our revolution came before the French threw off the nobles, or do they not teach history to you guys? So what if we evangelize our population, religion isn't inherently a bad thing. We suspended habeas corpus for NON-CITIZENS, who didn't deserve it anyway, since they are not citizens and thus not subject to our laws for CITIZENS. We finished it, you started it, no one side is better or worse as far as the slavery issue is concerned. And you bought cottons and goods produced by the slaves, you were supporters of it. And what about Britain's colonization of India? You can't tell me they didn't treat the Indians like slaves, conscripting them, forcing them to work, etc., etc.

NATO took control of Serbia. And Britain isn't Europe. I don't mind the British, they do good work, generally. But by and large your entire continent is a hypocritical cesspool of self-delusion.
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 20:27
Please, I have seen Chavs mocked every day. English is better for singing songs in...if you're going to use international success of musicians as an example, should you not be citing the United Kingdom? e.g the Beatles, David Bowie etc.

Yes, thank you for Def Leppard :rolleyes:

And as I said before, if you mock Chavs, or approve of it, you must be a tory.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:29
Yes, thank you for Def Leppard :rolleyes:

And as I said before, if you mock Chavs, or approve of it, you must be a tory.

No...I'm actually a Lib Dem...Everyone should mock ignorant and stupid people, it's the only way they'll learn.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:31
Same mentality. Glad you're arguing with definitions grounded in reality, as opposed to phrases that can mean anything and thus mean nothing.

Liberty in France? Our revolution came before the French threw off the nobles, or do they not teach history to you guys? So what if we evangelize our population, religion isn't inherently a bad thing. We suspended habeas corpus for NON-CITIZENS, who didn't deserve it anyway, since they are not citizens and thus not subject to our laws for CITIZENS. We finished it, you started it, no one side is better or worse as far as the slavery issue is concerned. And you bought cottons and goods produced by the slaves, you were supporters of it. And what about Britain's colonization of India? You can't tell me they didn't treat the Indians like slaves, conscripting them, forcing them to work, etc., etc.

NATO took control of Serbia. And Britain isn't Europe. I don't mind the British, they do good work, generally. But by and large your entire continent is a hypocritical cesspool of self-delusion.

Liberty was conceived in France long before the revolution, DOLT. Religion IS an inherently bad thing, and brainwashing a population certainly is. You suspended habeas corpus for citizens during the Civil War...You bought most of the slaves and preserved the slave-trade. Like most Americans, you have a skewed and incorrect view of imperialism. There WERE upsides to it. Britain IS in Europe, ergo IS Europe.
Tiber City
01-04-2005, 20:31
Well...here's my first point. Americans have pretty much the same mentality as Europeans from 1,500 years ago. Which is one reason why they earn themselves little respect.

Second, no contribution to human rights??? The rule of law was invented in England, liberty in France and democracy in Greece. Where the hell have you found this stupid and pretentious little idea that America is the home of human rights? You continue to evangelise your population, you've suspended habeas corpus and you had segregation and slavery long after any European country.

Plus, I believe the UK took the initiative over Kosovo and Serbia? Yep. We deal with our own problems, but unlike America we don't believe you have to destroy something to deal with it.

Without American support in Kosovo and the former Yugoslavia, no Nato action could have been possible. I do not remember the UK landing any troops before Clinton was on board.

Second, that bit about England, France and Greece is bogus.

Greece's democracy was a far cry from the modern form, and didn't last. The US is the first modern democracy.

France's revolution was in many ways an out growth of our own, and it didn't last, and brought around horrible consequences. The country that 'invented liberty' went from kissing Louis the 16th's butt, to the rain of Terror, to Napolean in less than 3 decades. During this time, America was already enjoying the 'liberty' that France supposedly invented.

Considering rule of law.... damn. All Citizens of the UK are still subjects to the Crown (and will soon be ruled by King Charles the Third). The US invented the concept of government by and for the people... somehow I see that as more important than having contracts with a King.
Carnivorous Lickers
01-04-2005, 20:32
Seems like you're the one bashing America. I can't recall any wars America fought for Christ.


Come on-open your eyes man-we have the big red cross on all of our shields.
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 20:32
No...I'm actually a Lib Dem...Everyone should mock ignorant and stupid people, it's the only way they'll learn.

And you clearly read the Daily Mail. Stop posturing.
Lang Lang
01-04-2005, 20:33
Idiots! If You Dont Know What Your Talking About Dont Say It!

HEY BIGGLES YOU SAY WE SHOULD MOCK STUPID PEOPLE AND THAT THE ONLY WAY THEY WILL LEAR, WELL THEN I GUESS WE SHOULD ALL MOCK YOU HUH?
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 20:34
Liberty was conceived in France long before the revolution, DOLT. Religion IS an inherently bad thing, and brainwashing a population certainly is. You suspended habeas corpus for citizens during the Civil War...You bought most of the slaves and preserved the slave-trade. Like most Americans, you have a skewed and incorrect view of imperialism. There WERE upsides to it. Britain IS in Europe, ergo IS Europe.

And you don't have a very good grasp of history either. I suppose that comes from reading the Mail also.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:34
Without American support in Kosovo and the former Yugoslavia, no Nato action could have been possible. I do not remember the UK landing any troops before Clinton was on board.

Second, that bit about England, France and Greece is bogus.

Greece's democracy was a far cry from the modern form, and didn't last. The US is the first modern democracy.

France's revolution was in many ways an out growth of our own, and it didn't last, and brought around horrible consequences. The country that 'invented liberty' went from kissing Louis the 16th's butt, to the rain of Terror, to Napolean in less than 3 decades. During this time, America was already enjoying the 'liberty' that France supposedly invented.

Considering rule of law.... damn. All Citizens of the UK are still subjects to the Crown (and will soon be ruled by King Charles the Third). The US invented the concept of government by and for the people... somehow I see that as more important than having contracts with a King.

The Monarch has no real power, EVERYONE knows that. America has never enjoyed true liberty, having always been a dogmatic and CHRISTIAN country. Third, I believe Blair pursuaded Clinton...and Rule of Law REALLY was invented in the UK IDIOT.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:34
And you don't have a very good grasp of history either. I suppose that comes from reading the Mail also.

The mail?? I read the Telegraph and the Guardian.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:35
Liberty was conceived in France long before the revolution, DOLT. Religion IS an inherently bad thing, and brainwashing a population certainly is. You suspended habeas corpus for citizens during the Civil War...You bought most of the slaves and preserved the slave-trade. Like most Americans, you have a skewed and incorrect view of imperialism. There WERE upsides to it. Britain IS in Europe, ergo IS Europe.
I wasn't aware that serving a monarch, and then decapitating him, his family, and people unconnected to the perceived wrongs of the French was considered liberty. Maybe you should go back to your superior European schools and learn what learned people mean when they say "liberty." Religion isn't an inherently bad thing, DOLT! Unless you can prove that it is somehow, in which case I'd love ot hear it. Rebelling against the state is treason, and during wartime, treason is punishable by death. They were lucky they merely got incarcerated. Of course there were upsides to imperalism, if it wasn't for Britain's imperalism, there would be no America. And last time I checked, if 1/X (where X is greater than 1) represents one country out of X, then that one country != every country. Maybe you need to go back to algebra as well.
Kusarii
01-04-2005, 20:35
Lets see, how can I start this.

I've met alot of americans, and I've spent some time in the United States in Florida, Virginia and North Carolina. To be honest, things are pretty nice there. The standard of living is excellent the choice and variety of food is generally very good and the people are on the whole pleasant. There are many exports from america that I enjoy in the UK, some television, starbucks, subway etc.

However there are a few things that irk me about the US, some are personal opinion others are reasons not why I dislike it per se, but reasons I would not live there. I'll skip those because they're pretty much down to personal opinion.

Personally I don't like the way the government works, a 2 party system just seems very un-representative to me. Here in Britain there are 3 main ones, but many of the fringe parties still do have a good number of seats in parliament. I dislike how overt racism seems to be, especially in the south on both sides of the racial divides - Wiggers and Niggers as my ex-girlfriends step mom would say to me. After all this time you'd think people would move away from this kind of thinking, and it really suprised me how people could be so backwards in their treatment of each other.

I think it's ironic how the level of violence in many US tv shows borders on pornographic, yet you're not allowed to use the word fuck on tv, that kinda makes me laugh tbh :p

Another thing that bothers me about americas Government and attitude as a nation is that they're quite happy to proclaim themselves International examples of qualities that make them money - Freedom, Capitalism, Democracy etc yet when it comes to qualities where it would cost the US as a nation - Environmentalism, Social Equality and the like, it just gets pushed under the rug. This I would say makes the United States seem like it's one rule for them, and another for everybody else. That might upset alot of americans, it would upset me, but I'm just offering possible reasons, not proof. Add to this as others have said, its history of attempting to spread freedom and democracy to nations that either don't want it or didn't ask for it, causing much pain and suffering in the process it WILL come back to bite any nation in the ass.

Plus I think some of it is jealousy, and impotence when it comes to other nations. When the US does something that another nation does not like, that other nation, or even group of nations can't do anything about it, the fact that America knows this and flaunts it regularly also makes people angry. It's viewed as arrogant.

Anyway I'll finish, there, I get tired of talking about what I dislike about america and why people seem to dislike about america... You're lovely people with a beautiful country, I just hope you can vote for someone other than the shrub next election :p
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:35
Come on-open your eyes man-we have the big red cross on all of our shields.

What does that have to do with it? Medieval motives died out centuries ago in Europe..in the USA they're growing a flourishing.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
01-04-2005, 20:36
Shh... no flaming or the mods will lock the thread or worse :p
Lang Lang
01-04-2005, 20:37
Originally Posted by Biggleses
No...I'm actually a Lib Dem...Everyone should mock ignorant and stupid people, it's the only way they'll learn.

SO BIGGLES DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULD MOCK YOU?
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:37
The Monarch has no real power, EVERYONE knows that. America has never enjoyed true liberty, having always been a dogmatic and CHRISTIAN country. Third, I believe Blair pursuaded Clinton...and Rule of Law REALLY was invented in the UK IDIOT.
You still have one. Why is that?

Again, look up the defintion of liberty, then feel free to apologize to everyone for your ignorance. Ignorance is excusable, stupidity is not.

Oh, you THINK you know about secret meetings between world leaders? Guess that changes everything then! Since clearly you're the expert on everything that goes on in the world.

And when was the rule of law invented? Probably in Eygpt or China, when government was invented. But that's just my thinking, I'm no expert on everything that goes on the world, like yourself.
*bows
Tiber City
01-04-2005, 20:38
Liberty was conceived in France long before the revolution, DOLT. Religion IS an inherently bad thing, and brainwashing a population certainly is. You suspended habeas corpus for citizens during the Civil War...You bought most of the slaves and preserved the slave-trade. Like most Americans, you have a skewed and incorrect view of imperialism. There WERE upsides to it. Britain IS in Europe, ergo IS Europe.

Please, how was it concieved long before the revolution? There were French philosophers who thought it up, but it was the Americans who put it into action (and no, the French did not have a monopoly on liberty in Philosphy).

The majority of slaves actually went to the European colonies in South/ Central America. The US only got a smallportion of the slave trade. Not to mention, the most horrific of plantation practices were developed by the British on Barbados and imported to the American south. Check your facts, far more slaves were sold to Portegues Brazil than America, by a factor of ten.

Britian is in Europe? It would be good if the British public and its Euro-skeptic politicans learned that.

Your anti-American diatribes don't seem to be based in reality. What do YOU have against us? This seems to convoluted to be anything but person.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:39
I wasn't aware that serving a monarch, and then decapitating him, his family, and people unconnected to the perceived wrongs of the French was considered liberty. Maybe you should go back to your superior European schools and learn what learned people mean when they say "liberty." Religion isn't an inherently bad thing, DOLT! Unless you can prove that it is somehow, in which case I'd love ot hear it. Rebelling against the state is treason, and during wartime, treason is punishable by death. They were lucky they merely got incarcerated. Of course there were upsides to imperalism, if it wasn't for Britain's imperalism, there would be no America. And last time I checked, if 1/X (where X is greater than 1) represents one country out of X, then that one country != every country. Maybe you need to go back to algebra as well.

They snatched liberty. Perhaps as an American, while you're trying to understand that Liberty isn't always snatched peacefully you can also learn that one doesn't have to be LEFT WING to be LIBERAL.

Religion= Indoctrinating people, preaching lies. That's inherently bad.

If it wasn't for Britain's Imperialism the world would not be industrialised, and the Americans would be speaking French. Bet they'd like that ;)
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 20:39
The mail?? I read the Telegraph and the Guardian.

Yeah, right. You have Mail reader written all over you. Who else uses 'Chav'?

If you read those newspapers, you would know that the US banned the importation of slaves long before the slave trade ended, but whatever.
Eichen
01-04-2005, 20:39
http://www.skippypodar.net/WebGallery/Miscellaneous/byebye-thread.jpg
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:40
You still have one. Why is that?

Again, look up the defintion of liberty, then feel free to apologize to everyone for your ignorance. Ignorance is excusable, stupidity is not.

Oh, you THINK you know about secret meetings between world leaders? Guess that changes everything then! Since clearly you're the expert on everything that goes on in the world.

And when was the rule of law invented? Probably in Eygpt or China, when government was invented. But that's just my thinking, I'm no expert on everything that goes on the world, like yourself.
*bows

Neither am I...but liberty really was invented by French philosophers. Conceived in France.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 20:40
That's in the Christian's opinion, one which would be biased towards a non-CHristian. I'm following the rules, but seems because Christ and the USA are so closely intertwined they have to bring the bugger into it.

I never said I was a Christian, you simply assumed I was. That's my point here by the way. All I wanted was some sort of factual information that proves the justification for war was based on religion as you stated. Instead of a logical discussion, you provide a series of statements based on you ill perceived notion of religion in America. Maybe your topic should have been, what misconceptions do you have of America?
Carnivorous Lickers
01-04-2005, 20:40
Lets see, how can I start this.

I've met alot of americans, and I've spent some time in the United States in Florida, Virginia and North Carolina. To be honest, things are pretty nice there. The standard of living is excellent the choice and variety of food is generally very good and the people are on the whole pleasant. There are many exports from america that I enjoy in the UK, some television, starbucks, subway etc.

However there are a few things that irk me about the US, some are personal opinion others are reasons not why I dislike it per se, but reasons I would not live there. I'll skip those because they're pretty much down to personal opinion.

Personally I don't like the way the government works, a 2 party system just seems very un-representative to me. Here in Britain there are 3 main ones, but many of the fringe parties still do have a good number of seats in parliament. I dislike how overt racism seems to be, especially in the south on both sides of the racial divides - Wiggers and Niggers as my ex-girlfriends step mom would say to me. After all this time you'd think people would move away from this kind of thinking, and it really suprised me how people could be so backwards in their treatment of each other.

I think it's ironic how the level of violence in many US tv shows borders on pornographic, yet you're not allowed to use the word fuck on tv, that kinda makes me laugh tbh :p

Another thing that bothers me about americas Government and attitude as a nation is that they're quite happy to proclaim themselves International examples of qualities that make them money - Freedom, Capitalism, Democracy etc yet when it comes to qualities where it would cost the US as a nation - Environmentalism, Social Equality and the like, it just gets pushed under the rug. This I would say makes the United States seem like it's one rule for them, and another for everybody else. That might upset alot of americans, it would upset me, but I'm just offering possible reasons, not proof. Add to this as others have said, its history of attempting to spread freedom and democracy to nations that either don't want it or didn't ask for it, causing much pain and suffering in the process it WILL come back to bite any nation in the ass.

Plus I think some of it is jealousy, and impotence when it comes to other nations. When the US does something that another nation does not like, that other nation, or even group of nations can't do anything about it, the fact that America knows this and flaunts it regularly also makes people angry. It's viewed as arrogant.

Anyway I'll finish, there, I get tired of talking about what I dislike about america and why people seem to dislike about america... You're lovely people with a beautiful country, I just hope you can vote for someone other than the shrub next election :p


Thank you for stating your healthy opinion and not stooping to belittle or bash us. I agree with you in several respects. And the ones I disagree with you on certainly arent worth bickering over.
Thanks again.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:41
Yeah, right. You have Mail reader written all over you. Who else uses 'Chav'?

If you read those newspapers, you would know that the US banned the importation of slaves long before the slave trade ended, but whatever.


Pretty much everyone uses the word Chav, because Britain's underclass is beginning to piss EVERYONE off. I'm a liberal guy with some socialist tendencies, but Chavs made me rethink that UTTERLY. It did, but banned it long after Europe did...which was the point I was making.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:41
They snatched liberty. Perhaps as an American, while you're trying to understand that Liberty isn't always snatched peacefully you can also learn that one doesn't have to be LEFT WING to be LIBERAL.

Religion= Indoctrinating people, preaching lies. That's inherently bad.

If it wasn't for Britain's Imperialism the world would not be industrialised, and the Americans would be speaking French. Bet they'd like that ;)
I'm just saying that your revolution happened after ours. Copy cats.

Religion != indoctrinating people anymore than if I say I believe the sky is blue indoctrinates you to think the sky is always a certain way. Your argument is inherently retarded.

Again, Britain's done the best out of all the Europeans, doesn't mean the continent as a whole has done well for itself.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:42
I never said I was a Christian, you simply assumed I was. That's my point here by the way. All I wanted was some sort of factual information that proves the justification for war was based on religion as you stated. Instead of a logical discussion, you provide a series of statements based on you ill perceived notion of religion in America. Maybe your topic should have been, what misconceptions do you have of America?

Having lived in America for the length of time I did, I think my 'misconceptions' are pretty accurate.
Swimmingpool
01-04-2005, 20:42
As the comedian, Lewis Black, said:
Imagine you work at an office, and everyday, a co-worker came in screaming, "I'M THE BEST FUCKING GUY HERE, AND ALL OF YOU MISERABLE SLOBS WOULD BE NOTHING WITHOUT ME!" That is how the world sees us, and that is why they fucking hate us.
Plutophobia is right.

Yeah, it's hard when the truth hurts. ;)
:rolleyes:

Damn, talk about missing the point.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:43
Neither am I...but liberty really was invented by French philosophers. Conceived in France.
So when faster than light travel is created, we get credit for developing it because some guy thought it was possible?
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:43
I'm just saying that your revolution happened after ours. Copy cats.

Religion != indoctrinating people anymore than if I say I believe the sky is blue indoctrinates you to think the sky is always a certain way. Your argument is inherently retarded.

Again, Britain's done the best out of all the Europeans, doesn't mean the continent as a whole has done well for itself.

THat's FACT though...indoctrinating people into FALSITY (no proof) is wrong.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:44
So when faster than light travel is created, we get credit for developing it because some guy thought it was possible?

You're Austrian? Then why are you bothering to ask me why America is so very disliked.
Synnax
01-04-2005, 20:44
Nice to see someone admitting that Europe has been mostly 'indecent' for the past 1,500 years.

It is so nice to hear the nations that launced the crusades, colonized the world, started the slave trade, drew up the impossible and nonsensical modern borders (the cause of much ethnic conflict), launced two world wars, faught for centuries about which church was better, invented/perfected feudalism, facisism, totaliarianism, anti-semitism,and communism, supported the Holocaust (not just the Germans, many sother nations (esp.slavic nations) went along with it) and have depended on America for their protection for most of the past century, complain about America's indecency.

Even in a modern, enlighted capital like Vienna it is impossible to walk through many neighborhoods without seeing "Neger Raus!" graffiti. Asylum applicants are regularly abused, mistreated, or ignored across Europe, right wing organizations are on the rise, and most nations have never come to terms with their crimes during WWII. Yet, Europe is supposed to be the enlighted, humanistic, cultured, modern light unto the world.

Please, give me a break. If the EU finds itself as a superpower in 50 years, it will pursue similar policies as the US. The Europeans have made no solid contributions to human rights, and could not stop rape camps and ethnic cleansing on their own continent (Yugoslavia, Kosovo etc) without US support. Furthermore, Europeans are more than willing to get into bed with any authoritarian regime that comes knocking (provided they have money, consider Schoeders wanting to overturn the arms embargo against China, Frances support to Saddam Hussein, or the wierd Austrian connection to Libya).

Personally, I am 100% against George Bush. I consider him a blight on America. I would rather hack off my own arm then vote for him.However,the constant, banal, boring, childish, "we are so much more advanced/civilised" bs needs to end. Europe has much more blood on its hands, and far less real support for democracy and human rights, than the US. They seriously need to get their own affairs in order, before being so quick to go after America.

I'm sure that if America's history was as long as Europe, we would have at least as much blood on our hands. We came from Europe, you know, and we took part in all the conflicts. Don't for get that Christopher Columbus didn't 'discover' the west. It was already here, we just stole it from the people who had lived here for thousands of years. Didn't we start coming over because 'our church was better than theirs?'
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:46
THat's FACT though...indoctrinating people into FALSITY (no proof) is wrong.
So there was no Jesus and there is no Bible. All the Romans, Jews, and Christian writings of old don't exist and there is no proof ever of Christianity or its roots existing. Again, thank you for being so knowledgable of everything in recorded history.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:47
You're Austrian? Then why are you bothering to ask me why America is so very disliked.
Where in the hell did that come from?
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 20:47
Having lived in America for the length of time I did, I think my 'misconceptions' are pretty accurate.

You have no justification or factual evidence that America went to war because of religion. Go ahead and admit it because you simply can't provide any. It seems that the only thing you're capable of is bashing based on your opinion.

If the intent of your silly survey was to teach Americans something, you haven't quite met the mark. If your intent was to provide conjecture and opinion, you've done a fabulous job.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:48
Please, how was it concieved long before the revolution? There were French philosophers who thought it up, but it was the Americans who put it into action (and no, the French did not have a monopoly on liberty in Philosphy).

The majority of slaves actually went to the European colonies in South/ Central America. The US only got a smallportion of the slave trade. Not to mention, the most horrific of plantation practices were developed by the British on Barbados and imported to the American south. Check your facts, far more slaves were sold to Portegues Brazil than America, by a factor of ten.

Britian is in Europe? It would be good if the British public and its Euro-skeptic politicans learned that.

Your anti-American diatribes don't seem to be based in reality. What do YOU have against us? This seems to convoluted to be anything but person.

What I have against America (and some Americans):

1. Religiocracy. Religion, in my mind, is inherently wrong. Indoctrination and evanglisation are wrong.

2. War Mongering: You'd have thought after escaping 'British Tyranny' you guys would learn to behave in a fashion that was peaceful.

3. Education: Introspective, incorrect and biased.

4. Irish-Americans sustaining the IRA, and then saying that the Taliban is somehow worse as a terrorist group. (Both are very bad)
Markreich
01-04-2005, 20:50
They snatched liberty. Perhaps as an American, while you're trying to understand that Liberty isn't always snatched peacefully you can also learn that one doesn't have to be LEFT WING to be LIBERAL.

Religion= Indoctrinating people, preaching lies. That's inherently bad.

If it wasn't for Britain's Imperialism the world would not be industrialised, and the Americans would be speaking French. Bet they'd like that ;)

Actually, we'd be speaking German. English only won by 1 vote.
(well, if you want to believe this urban legend, anyway...)

http://www.watzmann.net/scg/german-by-one-vote.html
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 20:51
Pretty much everyone uses the word Chav, because Britain's underclass is beginning to piss EVERYONE off. I'm a liberal guy with some socialist tendencies, but Chavs made me rethink that UTTERLY. It did, but banned it long after Europe did...which was the point I was making.

UK banned it in 1806 I believe, the US in 1808. France not until after the Napoleonic wars. Spain and Portugal never did, as far as I know.

Yeah, long after.

And Chav is a snob term, used by Mail readers, no question. None of my English relatives or friends use it, ever. If you were in fact a pretty liberal guy you wouldn't use it either.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:51
You have no justification or factual evidence that America went to war because of religion. Go ahead and admit it because you simply can't provide any. It seems that the only thing you're capable of is bashing based on your opinion.

If the intent of your silly survey was to teach Americans something, you haven't quite met the mark. If your intent was to provide conjecture and opinion, you've done a fabulous job.

Ok. I'll try again:

Your President is a devout Christian, most of your congressmen are. Most of them and BUSH made their decisions based on their religious morals (which I believe to be false). In no other western country do religious people hold so much POLITICAL power. This is what we call SECULARISM. The War in Iraq was pretty poorly disguised as a war which clearly had anti-Islamic/Pro-JudeoChristian motives behind it. Any war America wages against a country which posed no threat? Based on the MORALS of the Americans Saddam was worth toppling. Considering most Americans have christian morals, QED
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:52
Actually, we'd be speaking German. English only won by 1 vote.
(well, if you want to believe this urban legend, anyway...)

http://www.watzmann.net/scg/german-by-one-vote.html

How does that have anything to do with the colonial struggles over the American colonies between France and England and Napoleon's desire to expand upwards from Mexico and into America???
Markreich
01-04-2005, 20:52
What I have against America (and some Americans):

1. Religiocracy. Religion, in my mind, is inherently wrong. Indoctrination and evanglisation are wrong.

2. War Mongering: You'd have thought after escaping 'British Tyranny' you guys would learn to behave in a fashion that was peaceful.

3. Education: Introspective, incorrect and biased.

4. Irish-Americans sustaining the IRA, and then saying that the Taliban is somehow worse as a terrorist group. (Both are very bad)

1. Huh?

2. We ARE peaceful, until somebody flies planes into our buildings, bombs our port in Hawaii, sinks our ships in the Atlantic, etc.

3. Um? EVERYWHERE is biased. As for incorrect and introspective, have you gone to school here?

4. True. Of course, they're arrested when they're actually caught doing something illegal. :rolleyes:
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 20:52
What I have against America (and some Americans):

1. Religiocracy. Religion, in my mind, is inherently wrong. Indoctrination and evanglisation are wrong.

2. War Mongering: You'd have thought after escaping 'British Tyranny' you guys would learn to behave in a fashion that was peaceful.

3. Education: Introspective, incorrect and biased.

4. Irish-Americans sustaining the IRA, and then saying that the Taliban is somehow worse as a terrorist group. (Both are very bad)

1. You opinion, but I agree here. Extremism scares me both by the right and the left.

2. Describe war mongering and what is this based on.

3. All education is biased, prove yours isn't

4. I agree with you but the Taliban harbored the terrorists that attacked America.
Markreich
01-04-2005, 20:52
How does that have anything to do with the colonial struggles over the American colonies between France and England and Napoleon's desire to expand upwards from Mexico and into America???

It doesn't. It's a joke. :)
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:52
Ok. I'll try again:

Your President is a devout Christian, most of your congressmen are. Most of them and BUSH made their decisions based on their religious morals (which I believe to be false). In no other western country do religious people hold so much POLITICAL power. This is what we call SECULARISM. The War in Iraq was pretty poorly disguised as a war which clearly had anti-Islamic/Pro-JudeoChristian motives behind it. Any war America wages against a country which posed no threat? Based on the MORALS of the Americans Saddam was worth toppling. Considering most Americans have christian morals, QED
Most of your leaders are religious in one way or another. Your point isn't. Who says they made their decisions based on (factor X)? Are you a telepath now? I thought the war for Iraq was about oil? And before you ever use QED again, tell me what it stands for.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:54
1. Huh?

2. We ARE peaceful, until somebody flies planes into our buildings, bombs our port in Hawaii, sinks our ships in the Atlantic, etc.

3. Um? EVERYWHERE is biased. As for incorrect and introspective, have you gone to school here?

4. True. Of course, they're arrested when they're actually caught doing something illegal. :rolleyes:

1. You heard me, religiocracy.

2. Erm...Iraq anyone?

3. Nope, thank God. My son did for a time, I flew him home to board in England. He learned NOTHING about other countries.

4. Are they? So these Irish-Americans are arrested? Is funding Irish terrorism illegal?
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 20:54
Having lived in America for the length of time I did, I think my 'misconceptions' are pretty accurate.

Two weeks at Disneyland is not living in America.
Kusarii
01-04-2005, 20:54
What I have against America (and some Americans):

1. Religiocracy. Religion, in my mind, is inherently wrong. Indoctrination and evanglisation are wrong.

2. War Mongering: You'd have thought after escaping 'British Tyranny' you guys would learn to behave in a fashion that was peaceful.

3. Education: Introspective, incorrect and biased.

4. Irish-Americans sustaining the IRA, and then saying that the Taliban is somehow worse as a terrorist group. (Both are very bad)

1. While I agree with you completely that Indoctrination and evangelisation are wrong, there is nothing at all wrong with faith. While I think that people who strictly adhere to religious texts need a reality check I don't see THAT much of what you would term a religiocracy - at least not when it comes to US foreign policy. For internal policy - abortion, stem cell research, maybe, but that's the US' problem not ours.

2. Many of the wars the US has taken part in since Britain as an Empire ceased to exist has had British Complicity - Korea, Iraq etc.

3. The same could be said of the UK, although I can't comment to greatly on it.

4. This is a point I strongly agree with you on, but this is a specific and relative minority group of americans - a political group at that.

*edit*

By 4 I mean that the by far the majority of US citizens would not think to support terrorist organisations, especially since 9/11
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 20:55
Ok. I'll try again:

Your President is a devout Christian, most of your congressmen are. Most of them and BUSH made their decisions based on their religious morals (which I believe to be false). In no other western country do religious people hold so much POLITICAL power. This is what we call SECULARISM. The War in Iraq was pretty poorly disguised as a war which clearly had anti-Islamic/Pro-JudeoChristian motives behind it. Any war America wages against a country which posed no threat? Based on the MORALS of the Americans Saddam was worth toppling. Considering most Americans have christian morals, QED

Where are your facts for this conjecture? The conflicts Congress voted to authorize were based on airplanes crashing into the World Trade Centers and false WMD intel. I don't see religion in any of this? What am I missing here and please do use facts of this American religious war?
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:55
Most of your leaders are religious in one way or another. Your point isn't. Who says they made their decisions based on (factor X)? Are you a telepath now? I thought the war for Iraq was about oil? And before you ever use QED again, tell me what it stands for.

The Iraq war was about oil and religion. Latin Acronym: Quod Erat Demonstrandum. Means "Which was to be proven."
Silly Sharks
01-04-2005, 20:57
the Taliban harbored the terrorists that attacked America.
Maybe so, but they CAME from Saudi Arabia, and guess where they were trained?
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 20:57
Two weeks at Disneyland is not living in America.

Nope, but owning and running a business in Boston for three years is.
Tiber City
01-04-2005, 20:57
I'm sure that if America's history was as long as Europe, we would have at least as much blood on our hands. We came from Europe, you know, and we took part in all the conflicts. Don't for get that Christopher Columbus didn't 'discover' the west. It was already here, we just stole it from the people who had lived here for thousands of years. Didn't we start coming over because 'our church was better than theirs?'

We came over (and are still coming!) for many reasons, religious, political, etc. The Pilgrams were hardly the begining.

The point wasn't to say that America is a saint, its not. However, it is the height of hypocrisy for Europeans to bash America and not acknowledge their responcibility for past actions.

I live in Europe, and am hardly anti-European. I am a liberal democrat and do not support the current Administration. However, sometimes the anti-Americanism goes too far. America has done a lot of good, is trying hard to help solve many of the problems that are results of Europes imperialism, and is filled with good moral people.
Affengeschelt
01-04-2005, 20:57
I have lived in America all my life. Like all countries we have our problems, but I would never trade it for anything. No I am not a christian, and yes there is alot of religious influence in our country. At the same time I dont know of many countries that could say there country had no religious influence. I tried the religious stuff for a wile my self and found it had too much politics in it, but at least in this religion the main purpose is peace, not saying that it dosen't cause war. All i know is what I've seen i hopr that in the future America can find a way to have good relations with other nations without having to be super cop. I have no problem with Europeans mainly cause i have little knowledge of thier colture.
I am proud of being an American and always will.
"please do not feal that this statement is meant to target out any groups or nations"
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:57
1. You heard me, religiocracy.

2. Erm...Iraq anyone?

3. Nope, thank God. My son did for a time, I flew him home to board in England. He learned NOTHING about other countries.

4. Are they? So these Irish-Americans are arrested? Is funding Irish terrorism illegal?
1. What law bars athiests from holding public office?

2. Talk to France about the Ivory Coast for warmongering.

3. I learned plenty. Sounds like a bad case of lazy son, rather than a failure of the American school system. Or does your sample size of one indicate how all the schools in our 3,000 mile country operate?

4. Supporting terrorists in word or thought is not. In money, yes it is. Again, do these Irish speak for ALL American-Irish, much less ALL Americans?
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 20:58
Nope, but owning and running a business in Boston for three years is.

What did you run in Boston?
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 20:59
The Iraq war was about oil and religion. Latin Acronym: Quod Erat Demonstrandum. Means "Which was to be proven."
So where are all the converted Muslims and where is all this oil? And nice job on the QED, I mean it.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:00
1. What law bars athiests from holding public office?

2. Talk to France about the Ivory Coast for warmongering.

3. I learned plenty. Sounds like a bad case of lazy son, rather than a failure of the American school system. Or does your sample size of one indicate how all the schools in our 3,000 mile country operate?

4. Supporting terrorists in word or thought is not. In money, yes it is. Again, do these Irish speak for ALL American-Irish, much less ALL Americans?

1. No law, but convention.
2. How does that prove my statement wrong?
3.No, he's not lazy at all thanks. It just wasn't on the SYLLABUS. Although, I'm thankful we were in an area where evolution wasn't banned from the syllabi.
4. No, but it's a reason.
Carnivorous Lickers
01-04-2005, 21:02
3. I learned plenty. Sounds like a bad case of lazy son, rather than a failure of the American school system. Or does your sample size of one indicate how all the schools in our 3,000 mile country operate?




Me too. In fact, there were a few years of "World History" which focused on Europe, Africa and Asia.
Bigots, however, will only find what they want to find, learn what they want to learn.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:02
So where are all the converted Muslims and where is all this oil? And nice job on the QED, I mean it.

That's what you get for studying Latin. ;) Well, the 'missions' have only just moved on in so the converted Muslims will come in time I would think. The Oil has yet to be drilled for, Iraq had a very outdated way of getting it.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:03
Me too. In fact, there were a few years of "World History" which focused on Europe, Africa and Asia.
Bigots, however, will only find what they want to find, learn what they want to learn.

Hmmm, at what age is this? And how is a 10 year old a Bigot???? You're being very judgemental. Please, insult me if you like, but not my son.
Carnivorous Lickers
01-04-2005, 21:03
We came over (and are still coming!) for many reasons, religious, political, etc. The Pilgrams were hardly the begining.

The point wasn't to say that America is a saint, its not. However, it is the height of hypocrisy for Europeans to bash America and not acknowledge their responcibility for past actions.

I live in Europe, and am hardly anti-European. I am a liberal democrat and do not support the current Administration. However, sometimes the anti-Americanism goes too far. America has done a lot of good, is trying hard to help solve many of the problems that are results of Europes imperialism, and is filled with good moral people.


thanks.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:04
1. No law, but convention.
2. How does that prove my statement wrong?
3.No, he's not lazy at all thanks. It just wasn't on the SYLLABUS. Although, I'm thankful we were in an area where evolution wasn't banned from the syllabi.
4. No, but it's a reason.
1. So every single alderman, mayor, Senator, Representative, and police officer is Christian?

2. Warmongering implies we go to war unnecessarily more than another nation, I don't think this war was unnecessary, but even if it was we'd be no different than you guys.

3. OMG! NOT THE SYLLABUS!!!!11 What history was this? And what actually occured in class?

4. No it isn't. Anymore than I can say you're a representative for every single European.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:05
thanks.
I'm a Liberal Democrat, and most of us are Pro-European.
Delsaria
01-04-2005, 21:05
What I have against America (and some Americans):

1. Religiocracy. Religion, in my mind, is inherently wrong. Indoctrination and evanglisation are wrong.

2. War Mongering: You'd have thought after escaping 'British Tyranny' you guys would learn to behave in a fashion that was peaceful.

3. Education: Introspective, incorrect and biased.

4. Irish-Americans sustaining the IRA, and then saying that the Taliban is somehow worse as a terrorist group. (Both are very bad)

1) So, we can safely assume you are an atheist. We can also assume that because of your strong views of religion, you treat people who do not agree with you to a certain degree of disrespect. Do not deny it, it is evident in your posts in this topic.

Our government is NOT a religious one. Influence of it MAY get in, but that's like saying the British, French, or German parliaments are immune as well. They aren't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't most of France predominantly Roman Catholic? Yet you seem to have no problem with their government. Don't most members of Parliament hold some sort of religious affliation whether or not they show it publicly?

2) You don't have much room to talk on that either. As all history books recall, all of Europe was itching for a fight in 1914. I seem to remember "The War will be over by Christmas" was a common call because everyone thought war was so clear cut and easy. Sure, you may have tried to end war for good with the Versailles Treaty, but you weren't very diplomatic about it, not letting the Germans participate. I seem to recall it was Woodrow Wilson who was actually the most level headed.

Speaking of Mr. Wilson, wasn't he the one who came up with the concept of the League of Nations, which was the blueprint for the... United Nations, perhaps? An American came up with the concept.

Again, the War is a hotly debated topic here in the United States. Not ALL of us are war-mongering.

3) You say that as though your education isn't biased. You can't look at me and tell me straight faced that you got the real picture of American history or a glorified version of English history of some sense or another when you were in grade school. And excuse me, but university level education does not suffer the same bias as you think it might. I can tell you that first hand.

4) Yes, the IRA is very bad. Yes, they kill people and yes, they cause anarchy and chaos. Yes, they bomb and terrorize like other terrorist groups. They are a threat to government and law and order. But when was the last time they flew a passenger liner into a skyscraper? Never. The Taliban did all of the things the IRA has, plus that. I'm not justifying Bush's policy, but you're not backing yourself up enough to prove to me that you know exactly what you're talking about.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:05
That's what you get for studying Latin. ;) Well, the 'missions' have only just moved on in so the converted Muslims will come in time I would think. The Oil has yet to be drilled for, Iraq had a very outdated way of getting it.
Missionaries have been there for years. Doh.

You mean the oil pumps, which existed before the war, don't exist yet?
Carnivorous Lickers
01-04-2005, 21:06
Hmmm, at what age is this? And how is a 10 year old a Bigot???? You're being very judgemental. Please, insult me if you like, but not my son.

To say that nothing at all about other countries being taught in an US school is absurd and untrue.
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 21:06
1. No law, but convention.


The fact that you can say this proves that you never lived in Boston. (Or are an idiot, or both).
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:06
Hmmm, at what age is this? And how is a 10 year old a Bigot???? You're being very judgemental. Please, insult me if you like, but not my son.
We're talking about you, not your son. And if he's ten now, what was he when he was in history? Nine? Eight? No wonder he didn't learn anything about European countries, they don't get into that until middle and high school.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:07
1. So every single alderman, mayor, Senator, Representative, and police officer is Christian?

2. Warmongering implies we go to war unnecessarily more than another nation, I don't think this war was unnecessary, but even if it was we'd be no different than you guys.

3. OMG! NOT THE SYLLABUS!!!!11 What history was this? And what actually occured in class?

4. No it isn't. Anymore than I can say you're a representative for every single European.

1. Well, I seem to remember from Gallup 44% of you are Biblical Literalists, 87% practising christians...so I would say, yes. And actually, no president has been a non-christian and no Senator at the moment is.
2. Nope, but the point is you're behaving like we did 100s of years ago NOW.
3. It was American History, there was no other history orientated class. He sat down, learned about American History but I and he would rather a broad education.
4. THe government does nothing to stop it. We call that hypocrisy.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:08
We're talking about you, not your son. And if he's ten now, what was he when he was in history? Nine? Eight? No wonder he didn't learn anything about European countries, they don't get into that until middle and high school.

He was ten then...and that's precisely my point. We learn about World History from the beginning.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 21:08
The fact that you can say this proves that you never lived in Boston. (Or are an idiot, or both).

You may have a point...The don't call it the Peoples Repbublic of Massachusetts for nothing.
Markreich
01-04-2005, 21:08
1. You heard me, religiocracy.

2. Erm...Iraq anyone?

3. Nope, thank God. My son did for a time, I flew him home to board in England. He learned NOTHING about other countries.

4. Are they? So these Irish-Americans are arrested? Is funding Irish terrorism illegal?

1. What religion would that be? :rolleyes: I've yet to see any evidence of this, and I live here.

2. 19 broken UN sanctions, anyone?

3. Ah. Just prejudiced then.

4. Yes. Funding ANY terrorism is illegal, especially with the Patriot Act.
I remember arrests in Boston in the 80s for folks shipping money and weapons to the IRA vividly.
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:08
Getting back to the Topic at hand...

I don't hate America, yes, I hate the people of America, and there Government. But not America. I love the constitution, and almost know it by heart. I've lived in America for most of my life, was born here, raised here, and live here now.

1. The People: The people of America make me sick, why? Because there Ignorant-Arrogant, a dangerous combination. They have no clue about what is going on in the Government, and the World, but they always put in there in put. Guess what, those who know less, tend to think America is better, the less they know the better they see there own Country. They aren't only devastatingly stupid, but are getting stupider.

Anyone who watches a TV show and thinks that's how a Hospitol is, needs to get a heart attack and check in. Our Hospitals aren't very good. You tell me, why we're the only country out of all the ones above 2nd World that don't have a Universal Health Care system, and I'll point you to the people. Most people (and I know, I've been around America countlessly in the past few years and have talked to many Americans, at work, pumping gas, getting food, Yes - strangers) truly believe we need the war we are in right now. They truly believe that they are in danger. Ben Franklin once said: “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety...” George Carlin once said something around the thoughts of: 1. They want Honest Politicians...2. Airport Security is only there to give white people the illusion of security

How can Americans be so stupid to FUCK up there own country? I have no clue. I country that over the years has been so beautifully put together. They've spent all there money on this war, and have never paid back any of the debts.

THE BIGGEST REASON, HOWEVER IS THIS: They act as if they are above the law, the United Nations Hell, they're above there own law. they broke BOTH of there Resolutions in the Iraqi war. They did not listen to the UN, but if it comes to some other Nation, the door is closed to do what they just did. AND THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA, LET THIS HAPPEN, BY NOT CARING, AND BEING STUPID ****s WHO ARE FULL OF ****.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:09
1. Well, I seem to remember from Gallup 44% of you are Biblical Literalists, 87% practising christians...so I would say, yes. And actually, no president has been a non-christian and no Senator at the moment is.
2. Nope, but the point is you're behaving like we did 100s of years ago NOW.
3. It was American History, there was no other history orientated class. He sat down, learned about American History but I and he would rather a broad education.
4. THe government does nothing to stop it. We call that hypocrisy.
1. Cite that poll. I call BS.

2. The Ivory Coast incident occured 100 years ago?

3. In 3rd grade of course he isn't learning about other countries, he's probably learning multiplication.

4. They do. It's a crime to donate to the IRA.
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:10
It's called a THEOCRACY, learn what the BIBLE BELT is. Go to school once or twice in your life time. They want the Bible to turn into law, Hell...they might as well see how Iran runs there government.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:11
He was ten then...and that's precisely my point. We learn about World History from the beginning.
You mean you learn European history. We learn American history. And by the end, we know as much meaningful information as you. Why do so many of you come to our universities if we're so backwards?
Ubiqtorate
01-04-2005, 21:12
It's called a THEOCRACY, learn what the BIBLE BELT is. Go to school once or twice in your life time. They want the Bible to turn into law, Hell...they might as well see how Iran runs there government.

Actually, most Americans, do I believe, go to public school. And yet, some still say the funniest things.
America is not a theocracy, because no member of the church is in overt control of government.
Ra hurfarfar
01-04-2005, 21:12
Personally, I don't give a d%mn what the rest of the world thinks. I swear, this country must have the worst self esteem in the world! What other countries have almost half their populations whining about how horrible their own country is? This thread alone is representative! Half the americans whining "Why does everyone hate us" or feeling the need to "apologize for the rest of us," meanwhile, clearly bigoted European flamers *cough-biggeles* do nothing but insult us even more? And to those of you apologizing for the rest of us, I'll have you know, the rest of us AREN'T SORRY. What the current president believes in is doing what's right. He's not concerned about being popular with all the countries that have their money invested in evil regimes. So what if he's Christian? What's right is right. What's wrong is mass graves, or heinous torture camps (don't even start with american prison camps, whatever a few individuals have decided to do to prisoners doesn't begin to match what Saddam was doing). People, I have only begun to rant. Unfortunately, I've lost interest.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 21:14
1. Cite that poll. I call BS.

2. The Ivory Coast incident occured 100 years ago?

3. In 3rd grade of course he isn't learning about other countries, he's probably learning multiplication.

4. They do. It's a crime to donate to the IRA.

Hey Arammanar, do you think we should tell Joe Lieberman he's a Christian?
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:14
Actually, most Americans, do I believe, go to public school. And yet, some still say the funniest things.
America is not a theocracy, because no member of the church is in overt control of government.

Haha...Thank you for not reading to naything I said. Thank you for twisting my words, you did a really good job for how quick that took. a Theocracy is a certain Religion becoming law. Just what it says in the Religion, people ACTUALLY WANT THIS...they are ignorant to see that who they hate are doing the same thing...just with a different Religion. ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE doesn't allow it...sorry. A memeber of the Church doesn't have to be Overt Governemnt, **** I've lived a better life than George cocaine-Snort-Drive-Drunk Bush.
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 21:14
He was ten then...and that's precisely my point. We learn about World History from the beginning.


Okay, I call bullshit on this one too.

I was educated in England, I even have a history o'level. The history you learn over there is just as biased.

It goes: Romans; Alfred the great; William the Conqueror; Tudors; Oliver Cromwell; Napoleonic Wars; (They don't really mention the American Revolution other than some colonies that were mention in the Tudor bit got independence). British Empire; WWI; WWII; the end.

But whatever.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:14
[QUOTE=Delsaria]1) I have as much respect as I can for someone I believe to be wrong and to have most likely been brain-washed. I don’t really discriminate on the basis of religion.

Yes, you’d be correct that the Religion of France is roman Catholicism. In Europe, however, religious influence on politics Is very much frowned upon. When Blair says ‘God’, he gets a public opinion kick in the teeth.

2)” I seem to recall it was Woodrow Wilson who was actually the most level headed.” If level heading is pouring the money into Germany, making it economically independent and THEN when economic problems hit the USA ..Hitler arrived. Lloyd George was actually the most neutral of the three.

Speaking of Mr. Wilson, wasn't he the one who came up with the concept of the League of Nations, which was the blueprint for the... United Nations, perhaps?

America didn’t even join afterwards, and it wasn’t just HIS idea.


3) Studied Nazi germany and Soviet Russia at Primary school, British history studied later on bar really basic factual stuff that you can’t put an opinion on. We actually learn pretty much what we want to in History at higher level, from American Civil War to British Imperialism. I never suggested it did, but vast majority of Americans don’t go to University.

4) Supporting the IRA, criticising the Taliban- A lot of Americans do this. It’s called hypocrisy.
Markreich
01-04-2005, 21:15
1. Well, I seem to remember from Gallup 44% of you are Biblical Literalists, 87% practising christians...so I would say, yes. And actually, no president has been a non-christian and no Senator at the moment is.

SHENNANIGANS!!
1. Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People

Also, my Senator, JOE LIEBERMAN is Jewish.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:15
Hey Arammanar, do you think we should tell Joe Lieberman he's a Christian?
Sure, right after we tell him he's an Irish American supporter of the IRA who donates to terrorist groups. I love bigoted Europeans telling us how OUR country is!
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 21:16
Hey Arammanar, do you think we should tell Joe Lieberman he's a Christian?

Or Barney Frank. He'd be pretty shocked to learn he is a Christian fundamenalist.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:16
Okay, I call bullshit on this one too.

I was educated in England, I even have a history o'level. The history you learn over there is just as biased.

It goes: Romans; Alfred the great; William the Conqueror; Tudors; Oliver Cromwell; Napoleonic Wars; (They don't really mention the American Revolution other than some colonies that were mention in the Tudor bit got independence). British Empire; WWI; WWII; the end.

But whatever.

That'd be nice if O-levels hadn't been replaced 30 years ago.

Also, I meant to say Judeo-Christian for the Senator thing. I apologise. And those stats contradict the ones I found. Thing is, the majority (vast) are still Christian.
Kusarii
01-04-2005, 21:16
You mean you learn European history. We learn American history. And by the end, we know as much meaningful information as you. Why do so many of you come to our universities if we're so backwards?

On that note, I think we start our education earlier in the UK? I might be wrong, I started going to school, learning to read write at age 4...
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:17
Sure, right after we tell him he's an Irish American supporter of the IRA who donates to terrorist groups. I love bigoted Europeans telling us how OUR country is!

I never said the majority were Irish-Americans. Though from the people I met, about 90% of you claim to be. ;)
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:18
SHENNANIGANS!!
1. Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People

Also, my Senator, JOE LIEBERMAN is Jewish.

52 + +24 + 10=86.

Hmmm, pretty close to 87. since he said Christians and not protestants and whatever you guys ever want to make a new edition of how you see the bible.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:18
52 + +24 + 10=86.

Hmmm, pretty close to 87. since he said Christians and not protestants and whatever you guys ever want to make a new edition of how you see the bible.
Only close if you pull a 10 out of your ass.
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:19
Getting back to the Topic at hand...

I don't hate America, yes, I hate the people of America, and there Government. But not America. I love the constitution, and almost know it by heart. I've lived in America for most of my life, was born here, raised here, and live here now.

1. The People: The people of America make me sick, why? Because there Ignorant-Arrogant, a dangerous combination. They have no clue about what is going on in the Government, and the World, but they always put in there in put. Guess what, those who know less, tend to think America is better, the less they know the better they see there own Country. They aren't only devastatingly stupid, but are getting stupider.

Anyone who watches a TV show and thinks that's how a Hospitol is, needs to get a heart attack and check in. Our Hospitals aren't very good. You tell me, why we're the only country out of all the ones above 2nd World that don't have a Universal Health Care system, and I'll point you to the people. Most people (and I know, I've been around America countlessly in the past few years and have talked to many Americans, at work, pumping gas, getting food, Yes - strangers) truly believe we need the war we are in right now. They truly believe that they are in danger. Ben Franklin once said: “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety...” George Carlin once said something around the thoughts of: 1. They want Honest Politicians...2. Airport Security is only there to give white people the illusion of security

How can Americans be so stupid to FUCK up there own country? I have no clue. I country that over the years has been so beautifully put together. They've spent all there money on this war, and have never paid back any of the debts.

THE BIGGEST REASON, HOWEVER IS THIS: They act as if they are above the law, the United Nations Hell, they're above there own law. they broke BOTH of there Resolutions in the Iraqi war. They did not listen to the UN, but if it comes to some other Nation, the door is closed to do what they just did. AND THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA, LET THIS HAPPEN, BY NOT CARING, AND BEING STUPID ****s WHO ARE FULL OF ****.


anyone want to respond to this?
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:20
Well, it's well-known how many Americans are vying to get into Oxford and Cambridge. Point is, it's easier to get into Harvard etc. so many of our less-qualified students try it after Oxbridge rejection. The papers have even giving them a name, the "Ivy-League Reserve Team"
Dragon Guard
01-04-2005, 21:20
i'm a canadian and i think the government sucks, and so does their education, i mean, i mean no offense by saying this, but they really don't know that much about the rest of the world, i mean, considering canada is their neighnour, you'd think they knew a little more about us

my uncle actually had a bar full of americans, a short distance from the border on the american side, that he rode a god sled to the border then hopped onto a motorbike the rest of the way... honestly
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:20
anyone want to respond to this?
What's to respond to? When a 2-year throws a tantrum you ignore him.
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:21
Only close if you pull a 10 out of your ass.

That's where the word: OTHER comes from...last I knew some christian ogrinization started with a B. there's no way that poll is right anyway, but even if it was...YOU'd STILL BE WRONG. Plus, there is Random Errors.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:21
anyone want to respond to this?

It's quite well said? Maybe a bit coloured with anger, but you can see why the world hates you. Going over the UN's head is very wrong, which is why I hate Blair.
Markreich
01-04-2005, 21:21
52 + +24 + 10=86.

Hmmm, pretty close to 87. since he said Christians and not protestants and whatever you guys ever want to make a new edition of how you see the bible.

That 10% for other? That includes folks that worship Elvis. :rolleyes:
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 21:21
I never said the majority were Irish-Americans. Though from the people I met, about 90% of you claim to be. ;)

But you did say that all members of Congress are Christians. Man is Joe gonna be upset to learn this. He's been doing the Hanukah thing all these years.

I'll have to help him with his nativity scene at Christmas.
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:21
What's to respond to? When a 2-year throws a tantrum you ignore him.

I threw a tantrum? Or you have no argument?
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:22
That's where the word: OTHER comes from...last I knew some christian ogrinization started with a B. there's no way that poll is right anyway, but even if it was...YOU'd STILL BE WRONG. Plus, there is Random Errors.
Other means like, Pagan, Scientologist, it doesn't mean Baptist, Catholic, or Mormon. The random error is 1%, or do you know what a census is?
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:23
It's quite well said? Maybe a bit coloured with anger, but you can see why the world hates you. Going over the UN's head is very wrong, which is why I hate Blair.
The UN, which put China on the Human Right's Commission, which declared Darfur to not be a genocide, just a lot of people of one race killing all the people of another, is always to be obeyed? Please, grow a spine.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:23
But you did say that all members of Congress are Christians. Man is Joe gonna be upset to learn this. He's been doing the Hanukah thing all these years.

I'll have to help him with his nativity scene at Christmas.

I didn't say all Congressmen, I said all Senators. SUBTLE DIFFERENCE ;) Plus, I meant to say Judeo-Christian and I did apologise.
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:24
Ah, Arammanar...you took that test as well? 3.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.36

That's pretty conservative. Now I see where you get most of your bull****, pompous additude, and the whole "I'm not going to answer that tatement at this time until I have my lawyer handy"
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:24
I threw a tantrum? Or you have no argument?
Here's a bottle sweetie.
http://latis.ex.ac.uk/cfarchive/bottle.jpg
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 21:24
That'd be nice if O-levels hadn't been replaced 30 years ago.

Also, I meant to say Judeo-Christian for the Senator thing. I apologise. And those stats contradict the ones I found. Thing is, the majority (vast) are still Christian.

They were replaced twenty years ago (give or take), not thirty. I went to high-school a long time ago, but by all accounts, the UK educational system has actually declined since then, so I am probably better able to talk about its deficiencies than you are.

In my day, people like you did CSEs. Also o'levels actually meant something and weren't just handed out for showing up. (Unlike the GCSEs that replaced them).

But nevermind. You see, unlike you, when I talk about something in a different country, I actually know about it; instead of just basing my entire world view from the Daily Mail.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:25
The UN, which put China on the Human Right's Commission, which declared Darfur to not be a genocide, just a lot of people of one race killing all the people of another, is always to be obeyed? Please, grow a spine.

Going over the heads of many nations, thinking you're better than them? That is why disobeying the UN is wrong. It's undemocratic, if you think about it.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:26
Ah, Arammanar...you took that test as well? 3.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.36

That's pretty conservative. Now I see where you get most of your bull****, pompous additude, and the whole "I'm not going to answer that tatement at this time until I have my lawyer handy"
3.5 and 2.36 are pretty anything? That's 35% and 24% away from dead center. Most of the bullshit in my posts is a sad eventuality of quoting someone (for example of bullshit, read everything before the 3.5), my pompous attitude results from dealing with children, and I don't know what a "tatement" is, so how can I answer one?
Markreich
01-04-2005, 21:26
Population: 60,270,708 (July 2004 est.)

Anglican and Roman Catholic 40 million, Muslim 1.5 million, Presbyterian 800,000, Methodist 760,000, Sikh 500,000, Hindu 500,000, Jewish 350,000

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html#People

60 million - those listed = 15.6 million w/o religion. Or, less than 26%.

So that's 74% of the United Kingdom!!



Wow. No wonder the UK supported Bush. GOD IS ON OUR SIDE!!
(Yes, that last sentance is sarcasm.)
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:26
They were replaced twenty years ago (give or take), not thirty. I went to high-school a long time ago, but by all accounts, the UK educational system has actually declined since then, so I am probably better able to talk about its deficiencies than you are.

In my day, people like you did CSEs. Also o'levels actually meant something and weren't just handed out for showing up. (Unlike the GCSEs that replaced them).

But nevermind. You see, unlike you, when I talk about something in a different country, I actually know about it; instead of just basing my entire world view from the Daily Mail.

I did O-levels as well, never mind. Plus, I am a Liberal Democrat and read the Telegraph and Guardian for a balanced but educated view. Plus, they didn't let us do CSEs at Grammar schools. You know about them I wonder? Plus, I've lived in the US and studied American politics for a while. I also corresponded on the US elections for my Alma Mater.
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:26
The UN, which put China on the Human Right's Commission, which declared Darfur to not be a genocide, just a lot of people of one race killing all the people of another, is always to be obeyed? Please, grow a spine.

China? the people who have the most favored Trade status with America? Oh sure, when it comes to money, put morality aside...but to cover up for anything....BOOM, work your magic.

No, the UNITED NATIONS, the assembly which was founded to promote peace, not war. You listen to them because you said so. It's almost like a "CONTRACT"
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:26
Going over the heads of many nations, thinking you're better than them? That is why disobeying the UN is wrong. It's undemocratic, if you think about it.
We're better than China at Human Rights. We're better than the UN at seeing and stopping genocide. So yes, we are better than them.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:28
China? the people who have the most favored Trade status with America? Oh sure, when it comes to money, put morality aside...but to cover up for anything....BOOM, work your magic.

No, the UNITED NATIONS, the assembly which was founded to promote peace, not war. You listen to them because you said so. It's almost like a "CONTRACT"
Most favored trade status would be Canada. And there's more tantruming again.

The United Nations was founded to promote peace, yes. So was the League. You see how well that goes. Sorry, treaties < Constitution.
Homeglan
01-04-2005, 21:29
I have no problem WHATSOEVER with the American people. My Uncle and 2 of my cousins are American. My uncle is a crew chief in the USAF and I have a lot of respect for him because he's worked his way through the ranks to get this far.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:29
We're better than China at Human Rights. We're better than the UN at seeing and stopping genocide. So yes, we are better than them.

Worse than China for Ignorance, and I seem to remember you left the Genocide festering for a long time before you acted?;)
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 21:29
Well, it's well-known how many Americans are vying to get into Oxford and Cambridge. Point is, it's easier to get into Harvard etc. so many of our less-qualified students try it after Oxbridge rejection. The papers have even giving them a name, the "Ivy-League Reserve Team"

Harvard is not the hardest school to get into, not by a long way.

Anyway, it's piss easy for an american to go to oxford, and someone from the UK to get into the Ivy legue.

Foreign students are almost always accepted because they pay for the full ride.

You don't even know how higher education works. Stop talking out of your arse.
Diaga Ceilteach Impire
01-04-2005, 21:30
That America is a religiocratic society and that the President is a devout Christian and that he cited the 'Grace of God' as one of his reasons. QED

thats bs
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:30
Most favored trade status would be Canada. And there's more tantruming again.

The United Nations was founded to promote peace, yes. So was the League. You see how well that goes. Sorry, treaties < Constitution.

No, China has the most favored trade status. I have no Idea where you're getting your information.

Where does the constitution say attack another country?
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:31
Worse than China for Ignorance, and I seem to remember you left the Genocide festering for a long time before you acted?;)
China for ignorance? Learning is a crime there. Most of the ignorance in this thread seems to come from one thread starter. And sorry if we didn't stop the genocide fast enough for you, you haven't shown us a good precedent, since you all never act on that sort of thing.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:31
Harvard is not the hardest school to get into, not by a long way.

Anyway, it's piss easy for an american to go to oxford, and someone from the UK to get into the Ivy legue.

Foreign students are almost always accepted because they pay for the full ride.

You don't even know how higher education works. Stop talking out of your arse.

I do know how it works, thank you. Foriegn students won't have to pay for the full ride if Labour wins the next election. What exactly does that have to do with the Guardian calling them the 'Ivy League Reserve Team' etc. ????
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:32
No, China has the most favored trade status. I have no Idea where you're getting your information.

Where does the constitution say attack another country?
Prove it. I'd like to see where you are getting yours.

The Constitution says warmaking powers lie with the legislature, you can't cede that to another nation.
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:33
China for ignorance? Learning is a crime there. Most of the ignorance in this thread seems to come from one thread starter. And sorry if we didn't stop the genocide fast enough for you, you haven't shown us a good precedent, since you all never act on that sort of thing.

Now we're speaking of generalities? I really hate arguing over the Internet. the whole Genocide arguement can be thrown out, this happened...when again? lets see if you know.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:33
China for ignorance? Learning is a crime there. Most of the ignorance in this thread seems to come from one thread starter. And sorry if we didn't stop the genocide fast enough for you, you haven't shown us a good precedent, since you all never act on that sort of thing.

WTF? Britain declared war on Nazi germany pretty damn quickly I seem to remember. Stopping Genocide is hardly America's speciality. Plus, I'm entitled to my opinions...I started this thread, but some idiot yank threw in something inflammatory that provoked a lot of Europeans. Something about piggies rolling, so we responded.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 21:33
I did O-levels as well, never mind. Plus, I am a Liberal Democrat and read the Telegraph and Guardian for a balanced but educated view. Plus, they didn't let us do CSEs at Grammar schools. You know about them I wonder? Plus, I've lived in the US and studied American politics for a while. I also corresponded on the US elections for my Alma Mater.

Which alma mater would that be?

First, my apoligies to big Joe. He probably doesn't need any help with a nativity scene.

Second, I'm not sure you lived in the state of Massachusetts. That 's one of the more liberal states in the union and these people really do believe in the separation of church and state.

Third, your assumptions about America are based on conjecture it seems, especially the religion thing (seems to be an issue with you). Are you sure you've been her for more than a couple of weeks?
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:35
WTF? Britain declared war on Nazi germany pretty damn quickly I seem to remember. Stopping Genocide is hardly America's speciality. Plus, I'm entitled to my opinions...I started this thread, but some idiot yank threw in something inflammatory that provoked a lot of Europeans. Something about piggies rolling, so we responded.
If by fast you mean after the acquisition of Sudenland and years of appeasement, then yes, very fast. Stopping genocide isn't our speciality, we're just the best at it.
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 21:35
I did O-levels as well, never mind. Plus, I am a Liberal Democrat and read the Telegraph and Guardian for a balanced but educated view. Plus, they didn't let us do CSEs at Grammar schools. You know about them I wonder? Plus, I've lived in the US and studied American politics for a while. I also corresponded on the US elections for my Alma Mater.

You never went to a grammar school, those were for the smart poor children. Moreover, to even suggest that reading both the Telegraph and Guardain could result in an educated view, is like suggesting that by reading both soviet and nazi propaganda you could actually find out what is going on on the eastern front in World War II. (Because you couldn't).

And you never corresponded on US elections, or studied US politics, because your knowledge of them is excrable.

I tire of your trollish bullshit. If you must make up lies to sound self important, please try and make them interesting. Next time, tell us you are in MI6 or something, it will be a lot more entertaining, and a lot more convincing.
Bashan
01-04-2005, 21:36
Originally Posted by Arammanar
We're better than China at Human Rights. We're better than the UN at seeing and stopping genocide. So yes, we are better than them.

America human rights. China has hunan rights. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... sorry... I know... where's my corner


(There's a Chinese Restaurant called Hunan Joy near my house... I dont go to it because of the cat heads found in the dumpster)
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:36
Which alma mater would that be?

First, my apoligies to big Joe. He probably doesn't need any help with a nativity scene.

Second, I'm not sure you lived in the state of Massachusetts. That 's one of the more liberal states in the union and these people really do believe in the separation of church and state.

Third, your assumptions about America are based on conjecture it seems, especially the religion thing (seems to be an issue with you). Are you sure you've been her for more than a couple of weeks?

My Alma Mater is St. Antony's (Oxford) , I studied for my MA at Nottingham. Didn't seem like it to me, I mean, I visited Provincetown etc. but the creepy white Churches packed were significant counter-evidence. Someone tried to convert me to Christianity on three consecutive occasions. It's one of the most liberal, in comparison to the rest of the USA. Yep, two years.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:38
You never went to a grammar school, those were for the smart poor children. Moreover, to even suggest that reading both the Telegraph and Guardain could result in an educated view, is like suggesting that by reading both soviet and nazi propaganda you could actually find out what is going on on the eastern front in World War II. (Because you couldn't).

And you never corresponded on US elections, or studied US politics, because your knowledge of them is excrable.

I tire of your trollish bullshit. If you must make up lies to sound self important, please try and make them interesting. Next time, tell us you are in MI6 or something, it will be a lot more entertaining, and a lot more convincing.

a) I'm the son of a refugee (Jewish German), I'm from a poor background AND smart thank you.
b) They're not extreme...so no, it's not like it at all.
c) No, I really did. Was in Ohio for weeks.
d) I tire of your attempts to tell me who I am, rather than asking me.

I've spoken nothing but the truth.
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 21:39
I do know how it works, thank you. Foriegn students won't have to pay for the full ride if Labour wins the next election. What exactly does that have to do with the Guardian calling them the 'Ivy League Reserve Team' etc. ????

You are suggesting that somehow, the Ivy league is inherently less selective that Oxbridge, because it is easier for an English student to gain addmission there.

This is the fallacy of equivalnce. Apparently they did not teach logic at your purported grammar school.
Delsaria
01-04-2005, 21:39
[QUOTE=Delsaria]1) I have as much respect as I can for someone I believe to be wrong and to have most likely been brain-washed. I don’t really discriminate on the basis of religion.

Yes, you’d be correct that the Religion of France is roman Catholicism. In Europe, however, religious influence on politics Is very much frowned upon. When Blair says ‘God’, he gets a public opinion kick in the teeth.

2)” I seem to recall it was Woodrow Wilson who was actually the most level headed.” If level heading is pouring the money into Germany, making it economically independent and THEN when economic problems hit the USA ..Hitler arrived. Lloyd George was actually the most neutral of the three.

Speaking of Mr. Wilson, wasn't he the one who came up with the concept of the League of Nations, which was the blueprint for the... United Nations, perhaps?

America didn’t even join afterwards, and it wasn’t just HIS idea.


3) Studied Nazi germany and Soviet Russia at Primary school, British history studied later on bar really basic factual stuff that you can’t put an opinion on. We actually learn pretty much what we want to in History at higher level, from American Civil War to British Imperialism. I never suggested it did, but vast majority of Americans don’t go to University.

4) Supporting the IRA, criticising the Taliban- A lot of Americans do this. It’s called hypocrisy.

I never said I supported the damned IRA. Don't put words in my mouth and don't call me a hypocrite when you're the one who wanted to have an educated discussion on the topic when you've turned it into a religious matter that has degenerated into senseless America-bashing.

Earlier I considered you a relatively intelligent individual. Now, I see you as no better than the bull-headed Americans you hate so much. Now it is you who is putting on the arrogance, thinking you are better than any given American. Well, I have news for you: You're sorely opinionated on the United States and are letting your conjecture cloud your judgment. Where are your facts, where are your statistics, where are your sources? Put your money where your mouth is. If you want to say that Americans support the IRA, find where in the budget it says we send them money. Prove it. Don't just state it like an ignorant clown. Needless to say, I hold little respect for you any more. You see, it's exactly your behavior that makes Americans dislike Europeans, just like that one guy earlier who acted in the manner that makes you Europeans hate us. You're no better than him in many respects. Keep a level head, be respectful, and don't treat us as if we're stupid.

And you'd be surprised. Most Americans DO in fact go to University now, be it community college or whatever else. We're a far more educated lot than you think we are, and if you'd get past your own blinded opinions and get some real damn statistics, you'd see it too.

Sure, Blair may get a kick in the teeth, but what about in France? Or Germany? You didn't answer that.

Lloyd George? Neutral? Maybe. But he sure wasn't constructive in writing wrongs. You of all people should be aware that the war reparations Britain and France put on Germany basically broke its back, right? Without American aid, those people would've starved and died and the Weimar Republic would've probably been overthrown sooner. I also seem to recall any British aid drying up when the Great Depression hit too. Not to mention your failure to act when the Nazis illegally re-militarized the Rhineland. If you're so upset about Hitler, you Brits could've ended it right then and there with a single swift stroke.

The reason the United States did not enter the League of Nations was due to the Senate. Wilson wanted BADLY to be in it. Look it up in any good, creditable history source. Wilson was also the chief engineer of the League of Nations though he was not the one to execute it. I seem to recall you using the same rhetoric in regards to Liberty and France.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:40
You are suggesting that somehow, the Ivy league is inherently less selective that Oxbridge, because it is easier for an English student to gain addmission there.

This is the fallacy of equivalnce. Apparently they did not teach logic at your purported grammar school.

Purley Grammar school...but it's gone now :( Replaced by a Comprehensive. Anyway, yes, Ivy League is a great deal less selective because I'd argue Oxbridge is -over selective- for one, and the Ivy League has lower equivalent qualification requirements.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 21:43
Purley Grammar school...but it's gone now :( Replaced by a Comprehensive. Anyway, yes, Ivy League is a great deal less selective because I'd argue Oxbridge is -over selective- for one, and the Ivy League has lower equivalent qualification requirements.

You know, everybody on this site either went to Sandhurst or Oxford, must not be that selective.
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 21:43
My Alma Mater is St. Antony's (Oxford) , I studied for my MA at Nottingham.

That makes no sense.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:44
[QUOTE=Biggleses]

I never said I supported the damned IRA. Don't put words in my mouth and don't call me a hypocrite when you're the one who wanted to have an educated discussion on the topic when you've turned it into a religious matter that has degenerated into senseless America-bashing.

Earlier I considered you a relatively intelligent individual. Now, I see you as no better than the bull-headed Americans you hate so much. Now it is you who is putting on the arrogance, thinking you are better than any given American. Well, I have news for you: You're sorely opinionated on the United States and are letting your conjecture cloud your judgment. Where are your facts, where are your statistics, where are your sources? Put your money where your mouth is. If you want to say that Americans support the IRA, find where in the budget it says we send them money. Prove it. Don't just state it like an ignorant clown. Needless to say, I hold little respect for you any more. You see, it's exactly your behavior that makes Americans dislike Europeans, just like that one guy earlier who acted in the manner that makes you Europeans hate us. You're no better than him in many respects. Keep a level head, be respectful, and don't treat us as if we're stupid.

And you'd be surprised. Most Americans DO in fact go to University now, be it community college or whatever else. We're a far more educated lot than you think we are, and if you'd get past your own blinded opinions and get some real damn statistics, you'd see it too.

Sure, Blair may get a kick in the teeth, but what about in France? Or Germany? You didn't answer that.

Lloyd George? Neutral? Maybe. But he sure wasn't constructive in writing wrongs. You of all people should be aware that the war reparations Britain and France put on Germany basically broke its back, right? Without American aid, those people would've starved and died and the Weimar Republic would've probably been overthrown sooner. I also seem to recall any British aid drying up when the Great Depression hit too. Not to mention your failure to act when the Nazis illegally re-militarized the Rhineland. If you're so upset about Hitler, you Brits could've ended it right then and there with a single swift stroke.

The reason the United States did not enter the League of Nations was due to the Senate. Wilson wanted BADLY to be in it. Look it up in any good, creditable history source. Wilson was also the chief engineer of the League of Nations though he was not the one to execute it. I seem to recall you using the same rhetoric in regards to Liberty and France.

The IRA is hardly going to tell the world how much money it receives from Americans. Plus, Wilson was the man who kicked blacks out of the White House. Hardly a good person to judge America by. Germany is as secular, France is getting that way. Plus, I never said you supported the IRA- I said Irish-Americans, should hve said 'some', but it was a rushed internet post. APologies
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:45
That makes no sense.

Yes, it really does. You study for a BA, then an MA. :)
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:46
You know, everybody on this site either went to Sandhurst or Oxford, must not be that selective.

Sandhurst certainly isn't as selective as it used to be, and Oxford still is. Though Sandhurst has far fewer applicants than it used to I seem to remember, still a very prestigious place.
Delsaria
01-04-2005, 21:47
WTF? Britain declared war on Nazi germany pretty damn quickly I seem to remember. Stopping Genocide is hardly America's speciality. Plus, I'm entitled to my opinions...I started this thread, but some idiot yank threw in something inflammatory that provoked a lot of Europeans. Something about piggies rolling, so we responded.

*Dies Laughing* God, you paid no attention in class or your education was... biased. *Laughs again*

Excuse me, but wasn't it Chamberlain who gave the Sudtenland to the Nazis to AVOID war? You guys SOLD OUT the Czechs in the Munich Confrence! The Czech defensive line was up in those mountains along with ten divisions of troops! They could've given the Nazis hell if they tried anything! As I stated earlier, nothing was done to stop the re-militarization of the Rhineland, and you did nothing when they annexed Austria and did nothing when they finished overruning Czechoslovakia! It wasn't until the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939, several years after Hitler started all of this nonsense, that you finally and grudgingly declared war. The British did NOT go to war quickly, and you guys certainly didn't know about their genocide, because that didn't start in earnest until the execution of Operation Barbarossa in 1941 when Hitler launched his assault on the Soviet Union.

Like I said. I'm a University Student, and a History Major concentrating in Modern Europe. I know what I'm talking about.
Old Morocco
01-04-2005, 21:47
Prove it. I'd like to see where you are getting yours.

The Constitution says warmaking powers lie with the legislature, you can't cede that to another nation.

damn, I missed this one. sorry...

...Just go on to google, and type in: "Most Favored Trade Status" Look at the first, well...I don't know, 20 or so webpages which all have one Nation in the topic, and that's China.

china's been MFTS with us ever since that scumbag Clinton let them in 98'. It has stayed this way.

Yes, that's true. maybe you earned some respect from that sentence, and I'm a large supporter of the constitution being all powerful. I think we should remove the whole 'Under God' that was put in during the Red Scare, and put in 'Under the Constitution'...

Still, the constitution doesn't say "go to war" it just gives them that power. There is no question that this war was wrong, either way you look at it.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:48
*Dies Laughing* God, you paid no attention in class or your education was... biased. *Laughs again*

Excuse me, but wasn't it Chamberlain who gave the Sudtenland to the Nazis to AVOID war? You guys SOLD OUT the Czechs in the Munich Confrence! The Czech defensive line was up in those mountains along with ten divisions of troops! They could've given the Nazis hell if they tried anything! As I stated earlier, nothing was done to stop the re-militarization of the Rhineland, and you did nothing when they annexed Austria and did nothing when they finished overruning Czechoslovakia! It wasn't until the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939, several years after Hitler started all of this nonsense, that you finally and grudgingly declared war. The British did NOT go to war quickly, and you guys certainly didn't know about their genocide, because that didn't start in earnest until the execution of Operation Barbarossa in 1941 when Hitler launched his assault on the Soviet Union.

Like I said. I'm a University Student, and a History Major concentrating in Modern Europe. I know what I'm talking about.

The British went to war pretty quickly in comparison to America, I seem to remember. And British intelligence knew about the genocide before America joined the war. :)
Lacadaemon
01-04-2005, 21:48
Purley Grammar school...but it's gone now :( Replaced by a Comprehensive. Anyway, yes, Ivy League is a great deal less selective because I'd argue Oxbridge is -over selective- for one, and the Ivy League has lower equivalent qualification requirements.

I thought I just explained that. It has lower requirements for FOREIGN STUDENTS. You have no data speaking otherwise.

I could say the same about oxford. Many americans who do not gain admission to MIT, or Caltech, go to Oxbridge for the same reason.

Perhaps if you had an undergraduate degree from oxford, they would have taught you logic.
Roustup
01-04-2005, 21:48
The US is Religious??? I don't believe we have blasphemy laws (http://www.nationalreview.com/europress/boyles200503250759.asp) . Research and real argument are a little much to ask, aren't they?
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:49
damn, I missed this one. sorry...

...Just go on to google, and type in: "Most Favored Trade Status" Look at the first, well...I don't know, 20 or so webpages which all have one Nation in the topic, and that's China.

china's been MFTS with us ever since that scumbag Clinton let them in 98'. It has stayed this way.

Yes, that's true. maybe you earned some respect from that sentence, and I'm a large supporter of the constitution being all powerful. I think we should remove the whole 'Under God' that was put in during the Red Scare, and put in 'Under the Constitution'...

Still, the constitution doesn't say "go to war" it just gives them that power. There is no question that this war was wrong, either way you look at it.
If these websites are so legitimate and abundant, give me one.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:49
I thought I just explained that. It has lower requirements for FOREIGN STUDENTS. You have no data speaking otherwise.

I could say the same about oxford. Many americans who do not gain admission to MIT, or Caltech, go to Oxbridge for the same reason.

Perhaps if you had an undergraduate degree from oxford, they would have taught you logic.

I do have an undergraduate degree, thank you.
Krackonis
01-04-2005, 21:49
You have it backwards, the useless fat kid who talks too much is Europe/UN. The kids that actually get hings done are the Us, China and India.

Its the Europeans who claim all sorts of things(culture civilization ect) while not even eing able to clean up the messes in their own back yards(kosovo, serbvia ect).

The impotent fat kid..hell, even a fool will tell you that its france and germany.


If you define "getting things done" as "bombing people who are not like you", then yes, The US China and India get alot of things "done". including that all are perfectly good examples of highly indoctrinated authoritarian states. I think those three countries fall very neatly into the 14 totalitarian characteristics.
The Almighty Mind
01-04-2005, 21:50
I generally hate most Americans, although Americans are pretty much the only people I've ever been around. If I were to live anywhere else, I bet I'd hate everyone there too. So my pessimistic answer is no.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:50
The British went to war pretty quickly in comparison to America, I seem to remember. And British intelligence knew about the genocide before America joined the war. :)
Sorry if we were tired of cleaning up your mess from last time. Again, you got in two years before we did, and in that time, had basically managed to retreat back to your island, or the snowfields, or surrender.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:51
The US is Religious??? I don't believe we have blasphemy laws (http://www.nationalreview.com/europress/boyles200503250759.asp) . Research and real argument are a little much to ask, aren't they?

Far more religious, statistically, than any european country.

See the Gallup polls for further reference but here's a snippet:

44% of Americans- Biblical Literalists.

Over 80% attend Church weekly.
Old Coraigh
01-04-2005, 21:51
To Christ it does. Sorry, but i'd rather please Christ than you. I'm pretty sure Christ would be on the side of the US in terms of IRaq... i don't imagine he'd feel much empathy for a ruthless dictator who favors only 20% of his population.

And as for impotent... lmao. I know you don't think we're impotent.



Christ is in the trenches with the soldiers of both sides of every war. Claiming that Christ is only on your side is the height of arrogance. It also would probably be considered the original sin... eating of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, basically claiming you know God's will and who is condemned and who is saved.

As for dictators... as opposed to a dictator in all but name who favors only 5% of the population?

And finally, I do think it stands to reason that Americans are compensating for something... I'll it at that.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:52
Sorry if we were tired of cleaning up your mess from last time. Again, you got in two years before we did, and in that time, had basically managed to retreat back to your island, or the snowfields, or surrender.

We won the war in Africa, provided almost all of your intelligence, captured the Enigma and managed to destroy most of the Luftewaffe. Think that's quite impressive, personally. Plus, what mesS? America's contribution to WW1 was prettly negligible.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:53
Far more religious, statistically, than any european country.

See the Gallup polls for further reference but here's a snippet:

44% of Americans- Biblical Literalists.

Over 80% attend Church weekly.
Again, cite this damn poll you keep alluding to.
Krackonis
01-04-2005, 21:53
"The culture and the government, but not the people. "

The culture and the government are reflective OF the people. :rolleyes:


Which is why the people who american's have kept down for so long are now attacking them. I mean, your government opresses me and I don't get a chance to vote (or have any say) in how you kill us, then yes, I can see why they now hold the people of america who vote for the corrupt and criminal individuals they put in power as responsible as those in power.

It makes logical sense, and as long as you kill them, they will kill you... Seems normal.
Portu Cale MK3
01-04-2005, 21:54
Hatred is reserved for something meaningful and worthy.

The USA is none of that. It was for long the recipient of hope, and thought having many defects, a barrier for freedom. But power corrupts, and being the only super power, the USA is awfully corrupted, acting not for freedom, but for its own interest, acting not as a leader that would be an honor to follow, but as a thug that can only be despised. You still have much wealth, and much power, that will go unchallenged for many years to come. But you have no legitimacy for your actions. And though many fear you because of your power, historically, the smaller nations rebel. And so, the fearsome USA, that could have been a world leader, and have a great legacy, will just go down like all other empires, the british, the spanish, etc.. because you give the world no justification for the world not to challenge you.
The Land of Phantoms
01-04-2005, 21:54
I live in America and I know why people hate us:

:sniper:

Bush invaded Iraq as a scapegoat because he didn't capture Osama and the only reason he was reelected was because he munipulated Christians into thinking Bush was a real Christian, but he is a liar.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:54
We won the war in Africa, provided almost all of your intelligence, captured the Enigma and managed to destroy most of the Luftewaffe. Think that's quite impressive, personally. Plus, what mesS? America's contribution to WW1 was prettly negligible.
We won the war in Asia, provided our own intelligence, thank you, did break the Enigma, which was commendable, and basically waited until the Luftewaffe ran out of bombs and claimed victory. Sure it was negligible, just keep telling yourself that.
Old Coraigh
01-04-2005, 21:56
Far more religious, statistically, than any european country.

See the Gallup polls for further reference but here's a snippet:

44% of Americans- Biblical Literalists.

Over 80% attend Church weekly.


I have to agree with Roustup, the USA isn't a Religious country, which is why they don't understand the motivation of Religious Countries like those in the Middle East, and why they scare the hell out of the U.S. (whether they care to admit it or not). Nor is the USA a Political country (50% turnout in national elections? less generally) nor are they a family based nation (look at how work generally takes precendent over family).
The USA is an Economic country.
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 21:56
You know, I've listened to the constructive folks that have issues with America as well as Americans in general. I've also listened to a lot of wackos that simply believe what they want to believe about America based on conjecture and propaganda. I'm still not sure where all this hostility comes from but that's ok.

I'm gonna go home in my huge gas guzzling SUV, turn on some tele-evangelist, and maybe rent some French movie and make fun of it this evening. Actually, I'm joking here.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:57
Again, cite this damn poll you keep alluding to.

THE GALLUP POLL

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=14107 THIS SHOULD sate you in the mean time,

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=9088

Have fun, I made a mistake. It was over 80% who attend church monthly, but that's still a lot.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 21:59
We won the war in Asia, provided our own intelligence, thank you, did break the Enigma, which was commendable, and basically waited until the Luftewaffe ran out of bombs and claimed victory. Sure it was negligible, just keep telling yourself that.

No. It really was...I mean marching your greenhorns into machine guns in square batallion was WORSE than negligible. Plus, my lecturer in American history told me that (yes, I chose a module in American history, shock horror.). Plus, no, we provided most of your intelligence, we really did...hence the enigma. The RAF was pretty proactive, if you read about it we won because of Radar, stolidness and superior planes and tactics. They retreated, they didn't run out of bombs.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 21:59
THE GALLUP POLL

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=14107 THIS SHOULD sate you in the mean time,

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=9088

Have fun, I made a mistake. It was over 80% who attend church monthly, but that's still a lot.
40% of Christians attend church weekly. So 32% of Americans. Right, that's a theocracy if I ever saw one! Moron.
Left-crackpie
01-04-2005, 21:59
No. The impotent, stupid fat kid is America. I thought it was very well put. Fighting wars under the banner of Christ doesn't make a nation decent.
ok, lets put it this way:
The US is said fat kid
germany is said fat kid, except he's not fat, and he likes to blame the previous fat kid
France is said fat kid, except he's affeminate and hates jews
China is said fat kid, except he can occasionally back it up, but you dont want to admit it because he kill kittens for fun.
The Un is an association of fat kids and starving kids, but because the fat kids run it, its sucks major ass.

Done.
Portu Cale MK3
01-04-2005, 22:00
We won the war in Asia, provided our own intelligence, thank you, did break the Enigma, which was commendable, and basically waited until the Luftewaffe ran out of bombs and claimed victory. Sure it was negligible, just keep telling yourself that.


You lost a mere 115000 men in WW1. The British, French, or german Army had days were they would lose that amount.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:01
40% of Christians attend church weekly. So 32% of Americans. Right, that's a theocracy if I ever saw one! Moron.

I never said it was a theocracy. Plus, over 40% are biblical literalists...to me that smells of a religiocracy.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 22:02
No. It really was...I mean marching your greenhorns into machine guns in square batallion was WORSE than negligible. Plus, my lecturer in American history told me that (yes, I chose a module in American history, shock horror.). Plus, no, we provided most of your intelligence, we really did...hence the enigma. The RAF was pretty proactive, if you read about it we won because of Radar, stolidness and superior planes and tactics. They retreated, they didn't run out of bombs.
Say, you sound like Botrosox with the square batallion formation...I wonder...you are both dumbasses, both disguise your anti-American threads as meaningful topics, and make up facts at will about history and your education. I think I'm done with you.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 22:02
You lost a mere 115000 men in WW1. The British, French, or german Army had days were they would lose that amount.
Sounds like you all were just a lot more efficient at dying than us.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:03
Say, you sound like Botrosox with the square batallion formation...I wonder...you are both dumbasses, both disguise your anti-American threads as meaningful topics, and make up facts at will about history and your education. I think I'm done with you.

Er, no, the square batallions thing was on a history documentary recently. It probably got around, this documentary was in the last few days. Plus, I'm anti-American culture and foreign policy. Not american. Plus, I think my topics have been interesting and I've made up no facts. :)
Compuq
01-04-2005, 22:03
This Europe vs America fighting is getting lame........
Foobish-Awerf
01-04-2005, 22:03
The war in Iraq? Afghanistan? Poorly disguised religious crusades.

How so?

America is that kid you hate in high school because he's brags about being better than you and the worst part is, you know he's right. So every time you're in a big fight, he comes in and backs you up, you still don't forgive him because you're still jealous.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:04
Sounds like you all were just a lot more efficient at dying than us.

You barely fought at all, and you lost more men proportionally than we did in relation to the length of time you fought the war for. Depressing thought for you, I expect
Delsaria
01-04-2005, 22:04
The British went to war pretty quickly in comparison to America, I seem to remember. And British intelligence knew about the genocide before America joined the war. :)

Oh really, now? Care to give me a source so you can PROVE that you lot knew about the Holocaust before 1942? Give me a reliable source, and then I'll believe you.

We may not have arrived immediately, no. But at least we weren't responsible for selling out entire nations of people and appeasement of that madman.
The Vuhifellian States
01-04-2005, 22:05
That America is a religiocratic society and that the President is a devout Christian and that he cited the 'Grace of God' as one of his reasons. QED

Then how come 9% of Americans voted themselves Atheist or Agnostic
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 22:05
You barely fought at all, and you lost more men proportionally than we did in relation to the length of time you fought the war for. Depressing thought for you, I expect
Of course you lose more men proportionally when you win a war, as opposed to sitting in trenches dying all day.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:05
How so?

America is that kid you hate in high school because he's brags about being better than you and the worst part is, you know he's right. So every time you're in a big fight, he comes in and backs you up, you still don't forgive him because you're still jealous.

No, that's not 'right' at all. Which big fights? Napoleonic wars? WW1? That is two out of three America didn't help us in.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:06
Of course you lose more men proportionally when you win a war, as opposed to sitting in trenches dying all day.

Supporting the advancing troops from other nations isn't how you win wars. The Americans launched few offensives, I think you'll find...you didn't win the war, the British did and burned up their military and money in the process. That is why before WW1 Britain is the world super power, and after it was not.
Arammanar
01-04-2005, 22:06
No, that's not 'right' at all. Which big fights? Napoleonic wars? WW1? That is two out of three America didn't help us in.
We helped France in the Napoleonic Wars. Again, this may be hard for your understand, since this is the second time for it to come up, but England != Europe. And if you think that Americans didn't help you in WWI, you're quite frankly delusional.
Old Coraigh
01-04-2005, 22:08
You know, I've listened to the constructive folks that have issues with America as well as Americans in general. I've also listened to a lot of wackos that simply believe what they want to believe about America based on conjecture and propaganda. I'm still not sure where all this hostility comes from but that's ok.

I'm gonna go home in my huge gas guzzling SUV, turn on some tele-evangelist, and maybe rent some French movie and make fun of it this evening. Actually, I'm joking here.


*Stares at the screen until reading the last line* Being April first I'll let you have that one ;) The rest of the world doesn't hate Americans they have issues with the US government and the inconsideration the US has for what goes on in the rest of the world. (The only time the US acts seems to be with invasion that the US seems to think will make everything alright.)

Americans are seen as the teenagers of the world (and in terms of the USA's age compared to other nations that's not far off) in need of guidance, rebellious, capable of being the biggest asses in the world, but by the same token, capable of perhaps the greatest compassion of all.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:08
Oh really, now? Care to give me a source so you can PROVE that you lot knew about the Holocaust before 1942? Give me a reliable source, and then I'll believe you.

We may not have arrived immediately, no. But at least we weren't responsible for selling out entire nations of people and appeasement of that madman.

I didn't say I supported appeasement, but I can tell you the reliable source that's quite digestible: The World At War, it's huge but it's good.
Foobish-Awerf
01-04-2005, 22:08
No, that's not 'right' at all. Which big fights? Napoleonic wars? WW1? That is two out of three America didn't help us in.

WW1, WW2. Those are big fights. Like hell America didn't save the world. Sure we did it in our own defense, but it's not like we didn't save Europe in the process. We stopped Germany twice from raping them (or you, I don't know where you're from), and now everyone's mad at us for breaking up their corruption scheme through the U.N.

Oh yeah about the napoleanic wars: That was France invading the world, which they lost, again.
Portu Cale MK3
01-04-2005, 22:09
We helped France in the Napoleonic Wars. Again, this may be hard for your understand, since this is the second time for it to come up, but England != Europe. And if you think that Americans didn't help you in WWI, you're quite frankly delusional.


To be honest.. you didnt helped at all. I mean, the US intervention probably made Germany demise quicker, but comparing the US help with the rest of the nations, you weren't that good. The Brits and the French would have wore down germany alone, it would just take more time.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:09
WW1, WW2. Those are big fights. Like hell America didn't save the world. Sure we did it in our own defense, but it's not like we didn't save Europe in the process. We stopped Germany twice from raping them (or you, I don't know where you're from), and now everyone's mad at us for breaking up their corruption scheme through the U.N.

Will you please just get over the fact that America did hardly anything for WW1? Plus, there's credible evidence that suggests the Russians won WW2 by "catching Germany's bullets". No, you really didn't stop Germany in WW1. GET OVER IT
Foobish-Awerf
01-04-2005, 22:10
Will you please just get over the fact that America did hardly anything for WW1? Plus, there's credible evidence that suggests the Russians won WW2 by "catching Germany's bullets". No, you really didn't stop Germany in WW1. GET OVER IT

Granted Germany's mistake was invading Russia during WW2, but if Ameica had never joined, you would have lost. Face it.
Cape Porpoise2
01-04-2005, 22:11
You barely fought at all, and you lost more men proportionally than we did in relation to the length of time you fought the war for. Depressing thought for you, I expect

Bullshit, if we had never joined, you would be speaking German right now. This is why I hate France and England. They are so ungrateful for the multiple favors we have done for them that have saved them from German forces, adn don't deny it. We saved you and France, not only with D-day, Lend Lease, but also joining the war. Germany alone held off Britain, France, Russia, and the smaller Allied nations in both wars, and then when we joined, it ended Germany's war, quickly too. It was what, 1 1/2 years in WW1, and 11 months in WW2, and in the other 5 years in WW2, and 6 or however many years it was in WW1, you guys made NO progress, none untill we joined you.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:12
Granted Germany's mistake was invading Russia during WW2, but if Ameica had never joined, you would have lost. Face it.

It didn't happen, so we can't say if it's true.n
Big Scoob
01-04-2005, 22:12
[QUOTE=Old Coraigh]*Stares at the screen until reading the last line* Being April first I'll let you have that one ;) The rest of the world doesn't hate Americans they have issues with the US government and the inconsideration the US has for what goes on in the rest of the world. (The only time the US acts seems to be with invasion that the US seems to think will make everything alright.)

Americans are seen as the teenagers of the world (and in terms of the USA's age compared to other nations that's not far off) in need of guidance, rebellious, capable of being the biggest asses in the world, but by the same token, capable of perhaps the greatest compassion of all.[/QUOTE

You caught my April fools line. I almost wasn't going to put the "I'm joking" line in there but then I thought better. Thanks for the most constructive criticism I've read all day. I mean it and for the record I see and agree with a large part of your point.
Kusarii
01-04-2005, 22:12
They're right, the US contribution to WW1 was minimal at best. In fact I beleive the war had already been raging for 3 years before the US entered it in 1917.

World War 2 however was of course different.
Cordiality
01-04-2005, 22:13
All the nations who fought on the side of the Allies in WW2 sacrificed, some more than others, but I don't think there's any way that Britain and Russia could have won without the USA's help. Don't forget, before Pearl Harbor, Britain was just about broke and was getting by on Lend-Lease shipments from the US.
Old Coraigh
01-04-2005, 22:13
Of course you lose more men proportionally when you win a war, as opposed to sitting in trenches dying all day.

Due to the advent of the tank trench warfare was obselete in WWII.

Also just a note, that wars are fought with the mentality of how the last one was fought, failing to take into changes until the body count starts stacking up. This for example is why the American Civil War was so bloody. Troops weren't accounting for the invention of more accurate firearms than muskets. Same applies to WWI and II, and every other war out there.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:13
Bullshit, if we had never joined, you would be speaking German right now. This is why I hate France and England. They are so ungrateful for the multiple favors we have done for them that have saved them from German forces, adn don't deny it. We saved you and France, not only with D-day, Lend Lease, but also joining the war. Germany alone held off Britain, France, Russia, and the smaller Allied nations in both wars, and then when we joined, it ended Germany's war, quickly too. It was what, 1 1/2 years in WW1, and 11 months in WW2, and in the other 5 years in WW2, and 6 or however many years it was in WW1, you guys made NO progress, none untill we joined you.

No, we really did make progress. You don't understand what 'attrition' means, obviously. It was actually the British Blockading German ports that turned the tide of WW1, but I'm not going to go into that. Plus, you forget that without the UK (England isn't really an issue here) or the USSR America never would have won WW2.
Tluiko
01-04-2005, 22:14
"The culture and the government, but not the people. "

The culture and the government are reflective OF the people. :rolleyes:
Not of all, I guess, I personaly know some (not very good, but I know them).
And moreover: What is "THE" American culture.
As far as I have heard there are two different cultures. One conservative (especially Central USA) and one more liberal (esp. coastal states).
Delsaria
01-04-2005, 22:14
No. It really was...I mean marching your greenhorns into machine guns in square batallion was WORSE than negligible. Plus, my lecturer in American history told me that (yes, I chose a module in American history, shock horror.). Plus, no, we provided most of your intelligence, we really did...hence the enigma. The RAF was pretty proactive, if you read about it we won because of Radar, stolidness and superior planes and tactics. They retreated, they didn't run out of bombs.

Not that you guys did much better in World War I either. You ordered more of your men into machine guns than we did. Verdun? The Somme? Ooh, what about Gallipoli? Yeah, that was brilliant.

Yes, you did break the Engima code, which was an important element in intelligence, and yes, you did essentially win the war in Africa, but only because General Erwin Rommel wasn't being properly supplied. If he had enough oil to fuel his Panzer divisions, you guys would've been in serious trouble.

As for the Battle of Britain? Yeah, your superior tactics were "Don't attack the fighters. Just the bombers." Jeez, that's really something else. Yeah, and your superior Spitfire? They accounted for less than a THIRD of the RAF's strength in the skies of London. The Hawker Hurricane was the primary RAF fighter plane and it was inferior to the Messerschmitt BF109. You also only won because Germany lacked a heavy four-engine bomber to the likes of your Lancaster or the American B-17 Flying Fortress. Radar helped detect incoming bomber formations, but it also often sent RAF defenders on wild goose chases and often bomber squadrons would slip past undetected.

I will grant you that the people of Britain and the Royal Air Force did display outstanding courage in the face of the Luftwaffe. That kind of bravery is extremely respectable and I will always admire their resolve during the Blitz.
The Vuhifellian States
01-04-2005, 22:15
Granted Germany's mistake was invading Russia during WW2, but if Ameica had never joined, you would have lost. Face it.

True that, the Axis bombed the literal shit out of European factories, once America was in the war, the Allies had a strong industrial base that was 90% safe from destruction.
Cordiality
01-04-2005, 22:16
No, we really did make progress. You don't understand what 'attrition' means, obviously. It was actually the British Blockading German ports that turned the tide of WW1, but I'm not going to go into that. Plus, you forget that without the UK (England isn't really an issue here) or the USSR America never would have won WW2.

1. Both Britain and France were being worn down from the war. Even if they had won the war without the US's help, the resulting depressions probably would have been even worse, as bad as Germany's

2. No...but then w/out America the UK and USSR probably wouldn't have won either. So it's kind of a non-issue.
Biggleses
01-04-2005, 22:16
True that, the Axis bombed the literal shit out of European factories, once America was in the war, the Allies had a strong industrial base that was 90% safe from destruction.

We bombed the shit out of them, Dresden anyone?
Old Coraigh
01-04-2005, 22:17
I didn't say I supported appeasement, but I can tell you the reliable source that's quite digestible: The World At War, it's huge but it's good.

Sadly, yes, the US did know about the holocaust before hand, but it took an attack on their own soil to spur them to action.