Why people on here attack America and Americans. [Archive] - Page 2

Thorlania

06-03-2005, 00:07

...

Well, I don't think it's a charge I'll admit to any time soon. Truth is, I see both sides on a lot of issues. And when those issues come up, I keep my mouth shut.

Like the post someone made about a proposal to apply campaign finance reform law to the internet. Sure, I'm big on freedom of speech. I'm also big on campaign finance reform. So I shut up.

That said, I can say with confidence, the issues that I do speak up on, the war in Iraq, current American foreign policy, the general evilness of the Bush administration, religion in schools etc. I speak about often and loudly because those with whom I disagree have yet to present a sensible justification for their views.

If anyone has a sensible defense for any of the following, and I refuse to hear it out I'll admit to being closed-minded:

pro-war in Iraq.

* Iraq should have never happened. Afghanistan? Yes. Iraq? No.
pro-social security privatization

* SS privatization... the jury is out for me. Maybe if it was optional, but...
pro-guided prayer in public schools

* No way this should happen. We aren't a religious state. But if kids want to do it on their own time and that time happens to be during breaks at school, kids of all religions should be allowed in their own way. government should not be pro or con religion, just separated from it.

pro-creationism as an alternative scientific theory

* This is going to start it, but creationism as it is taught now and current evolutionary theory combined with the big bang theory are all silly concepts created by a young species looking for answers. Who's to say there isn't intelligent design... but the garden of Eden and the ensuing stories... well...
pro-Bush in general

* I know hundreds of people who could be a better president.

anti-abortion

* Again, the middle ground is me. Abortion should not be legal as whimsy... as if Saturday night was a mistake. But certain circumstances should allow abortion. I piss both sides off on that one.

...

Molnervia

06-03-2005, 00:08

All the political arguments aside. I want to ask you, Etrusca, why do you start crap like this so often? Do you really revel in acting like a putz? What is this unnatural obsession you seem to have with "stickin' it to the lib'rals" about? You always have this insufferable, psudo-intellectual bile at the tips of your fingers. What in your life has driven you to act like a mean-spirited punk ALL THE TIME?

Cannot think of a name

06-03-2005, 00:09

I am sick to death of people 'giving' the other side their argument. "This is why you think this," or "You think this..." Arrogance. And foolhardiness to think in any way that giving someone thier argument, telling them what they think or devaluing them by placing them in your context wouldn't be flamebait just 'cause you said it isn't. 15 pages later, the fantasy falls apart...

I for one, intensely desire our government to simply do what is right and to hell with anyone who has a problem with it. But then, that's just my "American arrogance" coming through. :rolleyes:
This should make the founding fathers vomit monkeys.

America came about in part from being tired of this 'my way or the highway, might makes right' BS. It was about getting enough smart people in one room that a solution we could live with would come out, the opposite of "I'm right and this foot up your ass proves it."

As a side note, I would suggest that it's not america or americans that you all hate, it's conservatives and for them I appologise. But thats another issue...

Eichen

06-03-2005, 00:09

Cannot think of a name

06-03-2005, 00:12

Another point (which I can't believe a Democrat didn't beat me to):

If you claim to dislike the American people, remember that Bush did not win by a lanslide, in any sense of the world.
You're throwing the liberal baby out with the Republican bathwater.

You just can't cover a nation as populated as ours with such a massive blanket, and not come off as an ignorant bitch.
I've never actually signed on to any party, but thats a middling point...

Thorlania

06-03-2005, 00:13

Actually, Coca Cola and Pepsi were supposedly discussing how to best offer clean potable water to the world's population, just a couple years ago... at a Bilderburg meeting.

Of course, it would have to be bottled water.... and sold in a free market system because as we all know, capitalism is the best distribution system known to mankind....

I like to think of the soft drink bottle companies as kind do gooders with only our best interests at heart.

Anyone ever see "Tank Girl"? :rolleyes:

zip it Thoricana...

Nice. I'm really insulted you misspelled my "name" on purpose... :rolleyes:

So, you equate what you posted with a world conspiracy rooted in the USA?

San haiti

06-03-2005, 00:15

Another point (which I can't believe a Democrat didn't beat me to):

If you claim to dislike the American people, remember that Bush did not win by a lanslide, in any sense of the world.
You're throwing the liberal baby out with the Republican bathwater.

You just can't cover a nation as populated as ours with such a massive blanket, and not come off as an ignorant bitch.

I think, like most americans he was missing the point. I know its been said rather a lot of times but most "anti americans" dont like the US govenment but they like the people. I love americans, i have a few as friends, but i hate their government with a passion.

Thorlania

06-03-2005, 00:19

And every post you have made in reply to this thread hasn't been stupid? Heh... Great point there, Thorlania... You're obviously someone who can speak from an empathetic point of view. There IS more to American culture, but not more much beyond art and literature (neither of which has been that ground breaking as a whole and neither stands out as being 'American', but I would take both as a historical aspect, rather than a regional aspect). Your post emphasises why this topic exists... I am obviously not from every nation in the world, but if you insist on being the way you are and myself, being the type to have spoken to many people... I believe myself to be the type worthy to express the 'world' opinion. Anyway, I would just like to point out that as your replies become more sarcastic - they lose more ground.

I suppose, if you had thought more... Is that if you had thought about it, is that what CAN stand out as American, is film and food. America does seem proud of it's food... and Hollywood... well, you haven't really opened up space for an opposing market (and please note, I haven't said American CAN'T produce good films, I was just pointing out that it hasn't in recent years... samey bullshit. Other countries, for whatever reason, just don't seem to try.)

What, you don't like sarcasm? Intelligent discussion is wasted on you, so sarcasm will have to do. You disagree? Well, since you are "the type to have spoken to many people" and that makes you the authority on world opinion, all you get is sarcasm. Thanks for making me aware of the sliding sarcasm scale of this important intellectual debate (you do know this is just an internet thread, right?). Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you're a nice guy/gal, etc., etc. I just don't buy the BS that you're selling.

Eichen

06-03-2005, 00:21

I think, like most americans he was missing the point. I know its been said rather a lot of times but most "anti americans" dont like the US govenment but they like the people. I love americans, i have a few as friends, but i hate their government with a passion.
I dislike and distrust governments, period. Just necessary evils.
So I'd say that you have a pretty blanced, reasonable opinion there, IMHO.
That goes for everyone here.

Everybody else's governments are all corrupt, slimy pukes as well, for the most part. If they believe otherwise, they're dangerously naive. It's all there in your world history books, kids.

Welcome to the politics of power; here there be tygers.

CanuckHeaven

06-03-2005, 00:22

*CanuckHeaven* notices that the pig is totally roasted now, and asks those who want back bacon on a bun to raise their hands. :)

Getstuffed

06-03-2005, 00:22

LoL, I love it :P Was it Coca Cola who came up with 'Dansani' or something or the sort... In Britain, before it got released wholescale, they sold... guess what... tap water. They sold tap water to the British until they could get the real thing and sadly, it sold because of the name. Shame. And it was proved as so... Reference... I'm sure if you need it, you can look yourselves.

It was to do with the future of water and scarcity problems decades along.

It basically amounted to a water feudal system. The bottlers were laying the groundwork for acquiring water rights later on in the name of saving us from droughts and dehydration.

San haiti

06-03-2005, 00:24

I dislike and distrust governments, period. Just necessary evils.
So I'd say that you have a pretty blanced, reasonable opinion there, IMHO.
That goes for everyone here.

Everybody else's governments are all corrupt, slimy pukes as well, for the most part. If they believe otherwise, they're dangerously naive. It's all there in your world history books, kids.

Welcome to the politics of power; here there be tygers.

Yeah, I dont think anybody trusts politicians anymore. I think my own government is somewhat corrupt, untrustworthy, and quite worthless. However the current american administration is either evil or stupid in my opinion.

Thorlania

06-03-2005, 00:24

*CanuckHeaven* notices that the pig is totally roasted now, and asks those who want back bacon on a bun to raise their hands. :)

Well, since Americans are hell-bent on world destruction via clogged arteries, ahem, and I am one of those evil Americans, I guess I better raise my hand... FOR EVERYONE! Mwuuuahahahahahahahha!

:eek:

Eichen

06-03-2005, 00:25

*CanuckHeaven* notices that the pig is totally roasted now, and asks those who want back bacon on a bun to raise their hands. :)
If I'm taking that wrong then please pardon me, but you're a leaky douchebag.

The Black Imperium

06-03-2005, 00:26

What, you don't like sarcasm? Intelligent discussion is wasted on you, so sarcasm will have to do. You disagree? Well, since you are "the type to have spoken to many people" and that makes you the authority on world opinion, all you get is sarcasm. Thanks for making me aware of the sliding sarcasm scale of this important intellectual debate (you do know this is just an internet thread, right?). Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you're a nice guy/gal, etc., etc. I just don't buy the BS that you're selling.
I don't think that sarcasm is all I deserve since you're providing just as much fact as I am. I'm just sorry I don't save logs of convos I have or make reference of every 'anti-American' post thats made. :P And I'm not selling any BS... I don't particularly believe what I'm saying, but if you look at the topic of this thread and you understand how low the average intelligence is and what the basic understanding of politics is... and how influential the news on TV is... what I'm 'selling'... is quite true. I don't say you need to believe me... my own opinions are quite different (to be honest, quite pro-American as of late after finding the population in Britain sees Moore as a saviour and forcing me into researching conflicting belief). I dare you to ask a typical average English person what they think of as American. I can only imagine the opinion among the rest of the developed world would be the same.

Seosavists

06-03-2005, 00:27

If I'm taking that wrong then please pardon me, but you're a leaky douchebag.
Yeah you took it wrong!!
*CanuckHeaven* was going to simply roast some marshmallows, but considering the intensity of the flames, has decided that a Nation States pig roast is in order!! :)

http://www.mrfa.org/images/Ayres2.jpg

Bon appetite!!

Middlesea Terra

06-03-2005, 00:27

Salutus

06-03-2005, 00:29

Americans are like a pest, they are eating rest of the worlds food, taking rest of worlds oil, they are the empire of evil ruled bu free maisons and right wing jews[do not mean to offend other jews, or jews as a whole here, I have jewish friends, but there is a bunch on the top]

ooooo, that was witty!!!

i spent so much time earlier in this thread ranting about overgeneralizations that i have nothing more to say to you.

kiss my ass, douchebag.

Sumamba Buwhan

06-03-2005, 00:31

Eichen

06-03-2005, 00:31

Yeah you took it wrong!!
Ah, you're right.
I'm sorry Canuck for calling you a leaky douchebag.

My bad.

CanuckHeaven

06-03-2005, 00:32

Well, since Americans are hell-bent on world destruction via clogged arteries, ahem, and I am one of those evil Americans, I guess I better raise my hand... FOR EVERYONE! Mwuuuahahahahahahahha!

:eek:
Since you are hell-bent on clogging your arteries, would you like some extra spicy suicide sauce?

http://www.peameal.com/bacobun.jpg

Sumamba Buwhan

06-03-2005, 00:32

now sex and make up

Alien Born

06-03-2005, 00:33

The Marshall plan.
The U.N.
NASA (specifically the HST)
Getting the f*@#ing Taliban
Helping mediate between the IRA and Britain

Thank you. At last some content rather than just posturing.

OK Point by point.

The Marshall Plan. Excellent. It is something that the whole of Europe should be thankful for and they tend to forget. No argument here.

The U.N.
This was not instituted by just the USA. This was instituted by the allies after world war 2. That the US agreed with the concept at the time acts as a reminder of the change in US foreign policy. The U.N. is a good thing, but there are many self proclaimed American patriots here who seem to think that it is anti-american.

NASA
Achieved many things of great propoganda value, at the cost of a great deal of money. The actual and real benefits of NASA are more than doubtful as of now. They may yet appear in the future however.

The Taliban
A nasty group of people in a country half way around the world. I do not think that anything would have been done about them were it not for 9/11.
A justified reaction by the US, but not one that I regard as being a good thing independent of the 9/11 connection. The overthrow of a government in a foreign state is not, and should not be the work of the US military. The defence of the US should be. This latter justifies the overthrow of the Taliban, not the fact that they were not to the US's liking.

Helping mediate between . . .
Not just the IRA and Britain, but Israel and Palestine, Serbians and Croatians etc. This is a responsability that all governments have. To do what you are expected to do does not qualify as a "good thing", it is a normal thing. All western governments have been involved in these types of mediations from time to time. The US a little more frequently than others, as it likes to involve itself in the internal politics of other nations. At times this is helpful, at times it is problematic. Can I ask you whether there should be mediation between Al Quaeda and the USA? No, this is not a serious question but I would point out that it would be the equivalent of mediating between the IRA and Britain.
Be very careful how you think of the IRA. They killed thousands of innocent people with bombs, bullets and beatings. They were and are a terrorist organisation. They are not a militia army defending their country against invasion.

Avvalon

06-03-2005, 00:34

Eichen

06-03-2005, 00:40

hmm... scanned this thread and felt offended by it... guess the world isnt apresitive anymore of us help... i personally say the us pulls out of everybodys business and watch the world collapse...

sincerally,
my siblings died for your siblings...
Can anyone decipher this in English for me please? I'm a tad high right now, and can't tell if that may be the problem.

Enlightened Humanity

06-03-2005, 00:41

Thank you. At last some content rather than just posturing.

OK Point by point.

The Marshall Plan. Excellent. It is something that the whole of Europe should be thankful for and they tend to forget. No argument here.

The U.N.
This was not instituted by just the USA. This was instituted by the allies after world war 2. That the US agreed with the concept at the time acts as a reminder of the change in US foreign policy. The U.N. is a good thing, but there are many self proclaimed American patriots here who seem to think that it is anti-american.

NASA
Achieved many things of great propoganda value, at the cost of a great deal of money. The actual and real benefits of NASA are more than doubtful as of now. They may yet appear in the future however.

The Taliban
A nasty group of people in a country half way around the world. I do not think that anything would have been done about them were it not for 9/11.
A justified reaction by the US, but not one that I regard as being a good thing independent of the 9/11 connection. The overthrow of a government in a foreign state is not, and should not be the work of the US military. The defence of the US should be. This latter justifies the overthrow of the Taliban, not the fact that they were not to the US's liking.

Helping mediate between . . .
Not just the IRA and Britain, but Israel and Palestine, Serbians and Croatians etc. This is a responsability that all governments have. To do what you are expected to do does not qualify as a "good thing", it is a normal thing. All western governments have been involved in these types of mediations from time to time. The US a little more frequently than others, as it likes to involve itself in the internal politics of other nations. At times this is helpful, at times it is problematic. Can I ask you whether there should be mediation between Al Quaeda and the USA? No, this is not a serious question but I would point out that it would be the equivalent of mediating between the IRA and Britain.
Be very careful how you think of the IRA. They killed thousands of innocent people with bombs, bullets and beatings. They were and are a terrorist organisation. They are not a militia army defending their country against invasion.

The UN was very much driven by the US and is funded mostly by them too.
I am damn pleased the Taliban are gone, they should never have been allowed to continue. The UN ought to move its arse and sort people like that out.

NASA gave us Teflon! Which aside from fantastic frying pans is REALLY useful in medical engineering.

And the IRA are w#@kers, but at least now they have stopped killing people. Well, aside form the criminal stuff they are up to...

The Eagle of Darkness

06-03-2005, 00:44

Correction: We should not be grateful for the Marshall Plan unless the people who came up with it are still in power. Present-day US is not responsible for it, and thus we have no reason to like it.

Or if we do, we will also hold you responsible for the Wall Street Crash. Curse you, United States! You drove us into a Depression!

Thorlania

06-03-2005, 00:47

I don't think that sarcasm is all I deserve since you're providing just as much fact as I am. I'm just sorry I don't save logs of convos I have or make reference of every 'anti-American' post thats made. :P And I'm not selling any BS... I don't particularly believe what I'm saying, but if you look at the topic of this thread and you understand how low the average intelligence is and what the basic understanding of politics is... and how influential the news on TV is... what I'm 'selling'... is quite true. I don't say you need to believe me... my own opinions are quite different (to be honest, quite pro-American as of late after finding the population in Britain sees Moore as a saviour and forcing me into researching conflicting belief). I dare you to ask a typical average English person what they think of as American. I can only imagine the opinion among the rest of the developed world would be the same.

OK, the English are a little angry anyway... But I've worked in Eastern Europe, in countries that don't have a permeating global power agenda, and I can tell you many of them love the USA. I employ people from Romania, Bulgaria and Ukraine, specifically because they are hard working and optimistic, and because they love America for a lot of the good things it offers. Trust in the fact there's a lot they personally could do without, but they generally love the USA. Now, that also doesn't represent their whole country's persepctive either. That being said, I've worked with, been friends with or been somehow associated with people from a variety of other parts of the world that dislike or like the USA. I have friends from India who openly dislike American culture, but won't leave due to the opportunities. They won't even associate with anyone but other Indians. I have friends from Africa, who are religious missionaries here to try to convert people. They love the USA. I work with people from South America(Brazil and Colombia in particular), that passionately hate US policies, but are friendly with the people they work with because they know it isn't them... I know Chinese and Korean folks who look down on our historical culture but love what we've built. I had a Russian teacher in the military that would yell at me for not getting a perfect score on my tests and rant about how much harder it was in Russia (true). Then there was another instructor at the same school that jumped ship from the Russian Navy back in the day, ducked and weaved his way through Europe, just for a chance to live in the US, and professes his love for the culture of freedom that exists here every day. It all depends. I agree with you that the average American is gullible enough to listen to the news (CNN or FOX). So, I admit a lot of the world hates the USA, but a lot of the world loves the USA (and to be honest there are many that just don't care either way). But that is just my experience. We are arguing extremes in here, and if we're all honest, those extremes are probably a relatively small percentage at either end (positive or negative) of the spectrum.

Sumamba Buwhan

06-03-2005, 00:56

We are arguing extremes in here, and if we're all honest, those extremes are probably a relatively small percentage at either end (positive or negative) of the spectrum.

Thank You!

End of discussion.

Lavenrunz

06-03-2005, 00:59

This is what I find exasperating about the United States.
First let me say that as empires go, the USA is fairly enlightened. Certainly it is not pursuing specific racial goals like the 3rd Reich or organizing purges like the Soviet Union.
Also let me say that I have relations in the States, and I've enjoyed visiting it. I have never regretted having the USA as an ally to my country. However, that doesn't mean that you can't find some things annoying about its policies.

1. American foreign policey seems sometimes to be like that of Doctor Frankenstein. It keeps making monsters, then trying and sometimes failing to control them.
2. America is like ALL big empires in that it is rather chauvinistic and arrogant at times.
3. The American government has an unpleasant tendency to justify stupid mistakes and blunders with "Well, you couldn't even protest this in Russia/Iraq/Iran/China"

However, these things are really superficial. This is like complaining that uncle Ted slurps his soup or puts his elbows on the table and mocks people who make less money than he does.

The real issues as I see it are these.
1. America for most of its history was politically isolated (deliberately) from Europe and the rest of the world. Proudly it stated that it was above the conflicts of Europe and the pursuit of empire. It's pursuit of empire was over the continent it existed in and in preventing further pursuit by foreign powers in the Western Hemisphere.
2. America has always had a rhetoric that goes back to the Revolution, about Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
3. Even in WWI, America shied away from the role it could easily have assumed, that of Empire maker and breaker. It withdrew into its shell.
4. After WWII, this was no longer possible. The very election of Roosevelt in the last election proved this. America was forced to go visibly onto the world stage, no longer as a place to make money or regard as a curiousity alone, but as one of THE major players.
5. A good metaphor for this post WWII stage is the era of the Three Consuls in Rome. You could compare Churchill to Lentulus, the Consul that everyone forgets about except in name (because it is Churchill himself, not really the UK, that plays a role of significance following WWII immediately), while Antony and Octavian are clearly the USA and USSR. Suddenly there are two major opponents wrestling in the dark for influence.

I know this is a crude set of scenarios but please bear with me.

My main point is this: the US may SEEM to have foreign policies that we try to figure out, but it only seems that way. The reality is that the US is made up of many different interests which all vie to greater degrees for power one year to the next. Money is a HUGE factor in this, as it is with any great empire. Let's not pretend that the Boer War took place for reasons of idealism; it was over diamond and gold mines. But the problem is that the USA has been very very effective at selling the ideology--liberty and pursuit of happiness--when like any nation it is really doing what is pragmatic. And thus we should not be surprised when the USA trades with China or Pakistan, attempts to bully Canada into joining the Missile Shield, accuses those who don't support a POLICEY of anti-terrorism--not anti-terrorism itself but merely America's solution--of being pro-terrorism. For Great Britain and France, the colonialist argument was superior civilization, as indeed it was for Rome or China or the Incas. For the USA it is just another version of that.

The Black Imperium

06-03-2005, 01:03

OK, the English are a little angry anyway... But I've worked in Eastern Europe, in countries that don't have a permeating global power agenda, and I can tell you many of them love the USA. I employ people from Romania, Bulgaria and Ukraine, specifically because they are hard working and optimistic, and because they love America for a lot of the good things it offers. Trust in the fact there's a lot they personally could do without, but they generally love the USA. Now, that also doesn't represent their whole country's persepctive either. That being said, I've worked with, been friends with or been somehow associated with people from a variety of other parts of the world that dislike or like the USA. I have friends from India who openly dislike American culture, but won't leave due to the opportunities. They won't even associate with anyone but other Indians. I have friends from Africa, who are religious missionaries here to try to convert people. They love the USA. I work with people from South America(Brazil and Colombia in particular), that passionately hate US policies, but are friendly with the people they work with because they know it isn't them... I know Chinese and Korean folks who look down on our historical culture but love what we've built. I had a Russian teacher in the military that would yell at me for not getting a perfect score on my tests and rant about how much harder it was in Russia (true). Then there was another instructor at the same school that jumped ship from the Russian Navy back in the day, ducked and weaved his way through Europe, just for a chance to live in the US, and professes his love for the culture of freedom that exists here every day. It all depends. I agree with you that the average American is gullible enough to listen to the news (CNN or FOX). So, I admit a lot of the world hates the USA, but a lot of the world loves the USA (and to be honest there are many that just don't care either way). But that is just my experience. We are arguing extremes in here, and if we're all honest, those extremes are probably a relatively small percentage at either end (positive or negative) of the spectrum.

Yes, I believe that the majority does not care. LoL, they neither hate, or love the US... not neither dislike, or like... They're just... uncaring and I would love to be so. As for all of this, it sounds as if the argument is pretty much pointless from this point on. Yes, we are arguing from extremes and what is the point of that? I was playing Devil's advocate, but I would much rather see what other people who are true to themselves have to say. I do believe the English are bitter and the public - not the government, do seem introspective right now. Thats why Tony Blair is not popular although, considering his opposition, he may be elected again... There is a lot of racism in Britain among people my age... Even the minorities here are racist towards each other... One of the huge problems, in my opinion, is illegal immigration. I feel that some people feel the portrayal as a loving nation in the UK is BS, lol. Instead of being a world power, they would rather solve their problems... and obviously, the alliance between the UK and the US... from that, the US is to blame (of course it isn't, but there is a lack of knowledge of politics here).

OceanDrive

06-03-2005, 01:05

Thorlania

06-03-2005, 01:07

Yes, I believe that the majority does not care. LoL, they neither hate, or love the US... not neither dislike, or like... They're just... uncaring and I would love to be so. As for all of this, it sounds as if the argument is pretty much pointless from this point on. Yes, we are arguing from extremes and what is the point of that? I was playing Devil's advocate, but I would much rather see what other people who are true to themselves have to say. I do believe the English are bitter and the public - not the government, do seem introspective right now. Thats why Tony Blair is not popular although, considering his opposition, he may be elected again... There is a lot of racism in Britain among people my age... Even the minorities here are racist towards each other... One of the huge problems, in my opinion, is illegal immigration. I feel that some people feel the portrayal as a loving nation in the UK is BS, lol. Instead of being a world power, they would rather solve their problems... and obviously, the alliance between the UK and the US... from that, the US is to blame (of course it isn't, but there is a lack of knowledge of politics here).

We better stop. It's almost like we're... AGREEING! :eek:

I gotta' go for the day. Have a good one.

Alien Born

06-03-2005, 01:23

The UN was very much driven by the US and is funded mostly by them too.
The UN proposal was laid out by a group of four countries initially, the USA, Russia, China and the UK. The UN itself was set up by 50 countries that met in San Francisco at the United Nations Conference on International Organization to draw up the United Nations Charter.The USA contributed much to its existence. This is indeed a good act, despite some current views.

The finances of the United Nations. As finding anything from the UN itself seems to be like wading through layers of bureaucracy I got this from the German Government.
UN funding
United Nations funding comes from three different sources:

* assessed contributions to the regular budget,
* assessed contributions for peacekeeping operations,
* voluntary contributions for specialized agencies and subsidiary organizations.

The scale of assessments for contributions to the regular budget is determined every 3 years on the basis of GNP and ranges from a maximum of 22% of the budget (USA) to a minimum of 0.001% (developing countries).

On top of their contributions to the regular budget member countries contribute to the peacekeeping operations budget and the cost of international courts and tribunals. The level of these contributions is based initially on their assessed contributions to the regular budget and is thus linked to each country's financial capacity. However, the actual level of assessed contributions to the peacekeeping operations budget also takes into account the political responsibility of the permanent members of the UN Security Council.
source (http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/en/aussenpolitik/vn/vereinte_nationen/finanzen_html#3)

So yes the US does carry a large burden, but one that is proportional to the burdens of the other security council members.

I am damn pleased the Taliban are gone, they should never have been allowed to continue. The UN ought to move its arse and sort people like that out.
I agree in one sense and disagree as it is outside the UN charter. The UN can not interfere in internal politics, nor should it.

NASA gave us Teflon! Which aside from fantastic frying pans is REALLY useful in medical engineering.
I know that many useful spin offs have derived from the NASA space program but the results of the actual program itself has not been particularly useful yet.

And the IRA are w#@kers, but at least now they have stopped killing people. Well, aside form the criminal stuff they are up to... Agreed.

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 01:27

Addressed this already. Still doesn't change the delicious irony (that Russian quotation is genuine).

Too bad it isn't what he said...

"...We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we’ve done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in,..."

That is what he said; now perhaps you might like to show us where a Soviet said that before Powel did?

And even if they did, does it make the sentiment any less valid, in your mind?

No one here has said that the quote may not apply to other Nations, have they?

So I am left wondering what your problem is with the statement.

Regards,
Gaar

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 01:33

The UN proposal was laid out by a group of four countries initially, the USA, Russia, China and the UK. The UN itself was set up by 50 countries that met in San Francisco at the United Nations Conference on International Organization to draw up the United Nations Charter.The USA contributed much to its existence. This is indeed a good act, despite some current views.

So I guess you have never heard of the League of Nations?...

http://www.library.northwestern.edu/govpub/collections/league/background.html

Many people credit this League for the basis of what became the U.N.

From the link...

The victorious Allied Powers of World War I established the League of Nations. The League's charter, known as the Covenant, was approved as part of the Treaty of Versailles at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919. The mission, as stated in the Covenant, was "to promote international co-operation and to achieve international peace and security." U.S. President Woodrow Wilson was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1919 for his leadership in creating the League. Despite Wilson's efforts, the U.S. Congress refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles.

Regards,
Gaar

Fecal

06-03-2005, 01:37

The premise of being anti-american is unique to americans. See the oligarchy that currently holds power is in a situation that they have not been able to exploite since the war of 1812. (Many people draw comparisions to Pearl Harbor which was a military base on a colony, but the WTC and Pentagon were on the US mainland did some REAL damage to the US) America is the only place I know and I am terrified of what our government and ancestors have done since they arrived here. Extermination of 97.5% of the total indigenious population, use of biological warfare (cold? how about a small pox blanket?) and outright murder of any person who was not of similiar descent. That war continues today. Well how about the 53% of our population that earns only 75 % of their counter parts make at the same position? Are women supposed to be happy? Yes american women enjoy freedoms beyond the imagination of some of the world's people but we are supposed to be the best. Or why not try driving thriugh a white neiborhood while lost at night and be either Black or Hispanic. Our police force always makes the human rights watch list. So many historical examples I can continue forever, but here's the 911 deal: :mp5: 19 desperate well connected followers of a religion(it could be any, fanatisism is everywhere) got some box cutters and did about 100 billion dollars to the structure of the economy. The targets if the us was targeting them would have been described as the war planning station(pentagon) and the big businesses that continue to invade "our" "holy" land. We have a military base in Saudi Arabia which really pissed off a lot of people who already live under repressive US backed and enstalled regimes (Taliban until Augest 01). Bin Laden had the training from the CIA in "unconventional" or "low intensity" warfare to be used against the Soviets when they invadeed "holy" land. He never really stopped fighting that Jihad, he only changed targets for the same offence. Don't forget the trade center was the target once before it finally collapsed. In Afganistan where people cant vote (whoopie! which us appointed and APPROVED dictator will be doling out food ration) the ground is still heavily mined from the 80's. (common knowlage i hope) What was also reported on was the 7 million people on the edge of starvation. Combined with the 500,000 dead Iraqi children (under 12) due to Us bombings in the 90's of their sanitation and water treatment facilities, and the incredibally callous Madeline Albright saying "we think its worth the cost" I ask, How could "they" not hate "us"?

Sumamba Buwhan

06-03-2005, 01:40

to fecal it matters!

hahahah - sorry

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 01:50

Well how about the 53% of our population that earns only 75 % of their counter parts make at the same position? Are women supposed to be happy?

This is a fallacy, first off the survey does nothing about comparing "same positions", so there goes that right out the window...

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/05/10/gender.bender/

"However, the 73-cent figure is misleading because it does not compare men and women of equal experience. Women workers have an average of four and a half fewer years on the job, which is a big factor in pay. "

"We found that if you control for male-female differences in experience and education, women earn 81 percent of what men earn," said Francine Blau of Cornell University.

Job choice is another factor that determines the amount of pay. Engineers command high salaries, yet relatively few women study engineering. Teaching pays much less and that career field still attracts mostly women.

"If, in addition, you control for occupation and industry, which could be somewhat questionable because employers decide who gets hired into what jobs, the figure rises up to 88 percent," Blau said.

So for women with equal experience, working the same kinds of jobs, the 27 cent female-to-male wage gap shrinks to 12 cents. And some pro-business groups say there may be no gap at all.

"In fact, when you start accounting for these differences, you find the gender pay gap shrinks considerably. And, by some estimates, disappears," Hattiangadi said.

Alien Born

06-03-2005, 01:54

The victorious Allied Powers of World War I established the League of Nations. The League's charter, known as the Covenant, was approved as part of the Treaty of Versailles at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919. The mission, as stated in the Covenant, was "to promote international co-operation and to achieve international peace and security." U.S. President Woodrow Wilson was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1919 for his leadership in creating the League. Despite Wilson's efforts, the U.S. Congress refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles.

Yes I have heard of, studied and examined in depth the League of nations. It was a model for the UN, sure, but a very imperfect one that needed a lot of revision. No security council, no teeth whatsoever. As a talking shop it was fine. I do not denigrate in any way the efforts of Woodrow Wilson in setting up the league, but to say that this led directly to the UN is to oversimplify. It was just one part of the process. The information I have about the founding of the UN comes from the UN itself (http://www.un.org/aboutun/history.htm) . It does recognise the precedent role of the League of Nations, but it also emphasises that the proposals for the UN that were discussed in San Fransisco in 1945 were hammered out by representatives of the four countries mentioned. The USA, Russia, China and the UK.

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 01:55

Written by one of your fellow "Europeans"...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/dapfner.asp

A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe — your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.

Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman, suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.

Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and, even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace-movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U. N. Oil-for-Food program.

And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement. How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany.

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.

One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in our time".

What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.

It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness.

Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.

His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.

In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.

On the contrary, we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even Otto Schily justifiably criticizes.

Why?

Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy, because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake — literally everything.

While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation, or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "Reach out to terrorists, to understand and forgive".

These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.

Appeasement? Europe, thy name is Cowardice.

Alien Born

06-03-2005, 02:01

Perhaps a little perspective is in order...

Well it is certainly a perspective, a little cubist perhaps as it does a nice job of distorting reality, but definitely a perspective.

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 02:04

Well it is certainly a perspective, a little cubist perhaps as it does a nice job of distorting reality, but definitely a perspective.

You wouldn't mind pointing out those "distortions" instead of just having us accept your OPINION as some sort of "Fact", would you?

I'm not real keen on accepting a Liberals "word" for anything since this last Election cycle...

Regards,
Gaar

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 02:06

Well it is certainly a perspective, a little cubist perhaps as it does a nice job of distorting reality, but definitely a perspective.

Let's not forget that it isn't an American's "perspective" either, but rather a German's...

Just wanted to note that not ALL Europeans feel the way that many here seem to.

Regards,
Gaar

GoddessnessPart2

06-03-2005, 02:13

you see, thats something

some people dislike the american attitude that anyone who dislikes them must just be jealous

which completely misses the point

and what IS the point, exactly?

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 02:35

... as empires go, the USA is fairly enlightened.

America is like ALL big empires in that it is rather chauvinistic and arrogant at times.

Even in WWI, America shied away from the role it could easily have assumed, that of Empire maker and breaker. It withdrew into its shell.
Repeat after me: "America is not an empire. America is not an empire."

There. Feel better now? :)

Alien Born

06-03-2005, 02:37

You wouldn't mind pointing out those "distortions" instead of just having us accept your OPINION as some sort of "Fact", would you?

I'm not real keen on accepting a Liberals "word" for anything since this last Election cycle...

Regards,
Gaar

1. I am not a liberal, I am just a conservative Englishman.

Distortions.
Appeasement. Yes it happened. The whole of the West took this line, including the USA. Do not lay the blame at the feet of others to try to escape it yourself. The USA kept this line on Europe until 1941. The Brits went to war in 1939. The appeasement ended sooner for us than for the USA.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.
Protecting a totalitarian regime in Saudi Arabia is not mentioned, the support of the murder of innocent people due to an aggresive expansionist policy from Israel is not mentioned. But countenancing, which means offering moral support, of suicide bombings is, but no evidence is presented. No examples are given. Protecting non existent democracies in the middle east is also mentioned. Rhetoric devices with no factual content.

There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.

Careful chicken little, the sky will fall on your head. What crusade? There are a few fanatic Muslims who are following their agenda, their are a few fanatic Christians who are following theirs. This has always been the case, it will always be the case. It represents no threat whatsoever to our civilization. This is tar brushing without evidence again.

His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.

If the evaluation is to be as detailed as that given to Reagan's role in the end of the Cold War then it is a foregone conclusion. The solidarity movement with Lech Walesa had no part in the end of the Cold War then? Go read an actual examination (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/1350/essays/coldwar.html) of the factors involved. Reagan may have been a factor, but he did not bring about the end of the Cold War.
What Islamic war against democracy? No attacks were made against Turkey, a Democracy right on the border of Iraq, nor on Egypt, another democracy. No the attack was made by fanatics against a perceived USA imperialism. Not on Western Democracy.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy, because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake — literally everything.

He obviously did not look at the state of the US economy before the war. There is a tradition that when the internal politics are up the creek, find a war to fight. This has happened over and over again. Find your own examples as any comparison I make will be considered flamming. What is realy at stake. The US oil supply. That could be interpreted as everything, but only from a very narrow perspective.

While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation, or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "Reach out to terrorists, to understand and forgive".

They are sure of their priorities, their profits. Or are you going to argue that certain influential companies (via Richard Ch. for example) are not making huge profits on this. To interfere in another country is not a matter of cost, it is a matter of international law.
To be concerned about the welfare of your own citizens is, as I understand it the primary duty of any government. It apears to be one that the Bush administration has forgotten.
What TV preachers? They are a US phenomenon. Maybe one or two exist in Germany, but the Europeans do not exactlyu pay much attention to them. Pushing American buttons here. Showing exactly which audience the piece is intended for.

OK, satisfied. This has been selective as the whole text is so badly skewed to a hawk position it is unbelievable.

My Romania

06-03-2005, 03:21

ok.. ive read 10 pages and i cant asimilate more at this hour (its 4 am in here..)
So many pro or against arguments..
ok.. i must warn u that i myself believe that americans are arrogant and ignorant. you had enough arguments on that..
what i really dont like is how this discutions are carried.
both "teams" have some stupid arguments.. and some good ones (i personaly believe the "anti-americans" are right and had the better arguments.
so i read.. and i read.. and then bam! i saw a post that i like.. i agreed with.. it had reasonable arguments.. and i read along to see if a reply comes. Surprise..nothing. The pro-team responds only to weak arguments. ok..
then i saw another good argumented post who had data taken from a EU site..
ofcourse the americans started whining.. Thouse data arent true! check this site! --> and points tu an US one. ok.. so wich one is really right? (None in my opinion)
im so sick of this..
try not to think from thouse data anymore. TRY TO THINK FREE!
learn about spheres of influence.. the ways that thouse are obtained and used.. then try to make ur own judgment
ok.. im getting really sleepy.. and im pist of coz words just dont want to pop out of my head anymore.. when i decided to post this i had more to add..
if somebody really noticed what i said.. and is interested.. tomorow i will try to quote all arguments given by the "anti-team" that i consider to be good ones and i will expect CLEAR answers on that (not bullshiting propaganda that u probably get from your brain washing mass-media)
I want answers with logical arguments.. (but please try to learn more about spheres of influence and everything that goes with that.)
someone asked why anti-team believes that ALL americans are ignorant and arrogant. Well ill try to answer to that. Because MOST of your posts just confirmed what they think about you.
like bugs bunny once said.. (he did?) peace on earth!
:fluffle:

Custodes Rana

06-03-2005, 03:43

You can not see it can you?
The point is not that other countries have done bad things in their time as well. These other countries have since changed their methods and are willing in most cases to apologise and say that with the wisdom of hidsight they know that they were wrong. It is not a matter of memory, it is amatter of present attitude.

Can you not? Rwanda(1996), Cote d'Ivorie(current)? Both not so long ago..
My point was "certain" people choose what they want to remember and who to blame.....

Ignore the fact that the UK and France both occupied the Suez canal, conveniently the Arab world has. Ignore the fact that France basically handed a nuclear weapons program to Israel, yet the Arab world turns a blind eye to that as well.

As I said, selective memory. If the US is involved then it's evil....anyone else, just a victim of circumstance!

The primary cause of anti-american feeling in the area of the world that I live in is the overbearing arrogance of believing that the american way is the way the world has to follow and will be forced to follow.

Why? Because of Iraq?? In my opinion Bush jumped the gun. But, with France, Germany and Russia starving Iraqi's to make a "buck", the US gets blamed for UN sanctions vs Iraq! No doubt, France, Germany and Russia were just "victims of circumstance". Damn that sounds familiar!

The schoolyard bully, beating up on the smaller kids who don't support the same team as he does.
That is the image most around here have. That there have been other bullies in the past does not excuse the current one.
The "We are big tough men and you will do what we say fascist attitude." generates hatred from the people who genuinely value their freedom.

You're absolutely correct. The US should have left the humanitarian Saddam Hussein in power. Of course, that's why NO ONE on this forum has the courage to mention how Singapore,the Netherlands, India, Germany, Egypt, Luxembourg, and Brazil sold Iraq the chemicals to make WMDs. But that right...."If the US is involved then it's evil....anyone else, just a victim of circumstance!"

This leads to the second point. The hypocrisy. The world is to be free and democratic, so long as this suits the USA. Where full democracy returns a political leader that is contrary to the American neo-con agenda then the democratic principle has been conveniently forgotten too many times. The current target of this type of thing is Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Now politically I am opposed to him, but he was democratically elected (more so than Bush, as it is was direct presidential election, no electoral college stuff in the way). This means what. That if you support freedom and democracy you have to support Venezuela in its democracy. (Forget the threat to the oil supplies, or is that just me being cynical).
Bush spouts on about freedom and at the same time introduces the patriot act. The US requires fingerprinting of all foreigners entering their territory, fair enough, but don't complain when other territories require this of US citizens.

So what would you have said IF the US didn't start fingerprinting foreigners that enter the US after 9/11??

I have nothing against individual americans as people, I have a great deal against the bully boys and hypocrites.

Hypocrites...The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

According to your own words then, the French, Germans and Russians must believe in starving the Iraqi people....

Can you say "Oil for Food" SCAM.....

CanuckHeaven

06-03-2005, 04:08

Although I was a bit reluctant to get into this thread, my head overruled my heart. Right off the bat, I notice that you take a controversial stance, which could be construed as flamebait. Please note that I am NOT anti-American but I am anti-Bush. Also please note that because I am anti-Bush doesn’t mean that I hate the man because I don’t, dislike immensely would be a better choice of words.

I realize that many of the rabid anti-Americans on here are going to post enlightening things like:
Are you trying to imply that anyone that is anti-American is somehow infected with rabies? Minus 1 point for you.

"'Cause Americans are stupid!" or "'Cause you keep attacking other countries!" or "'Cause American soldiers are all trigger-happy!" or similar strangeness.
So if anyone thinks that the US is attacking too many countries, they are somehow “strange” for their beliefs? Minus 1 more point for you.

But I, for one, have been pondering just why so many of the posters on here truly seem to hate America and Americans.
Here I think that you are clearly over stating the truth. While many posters believe that Bush is bad, not too many actually “hate” your country, or “hate” Americans in general. Since you used the word “many”, were you trying to suggest more than half? If you could point me towards any statistic that may validate your claim, then I will concede that point to you. Zero points for this item at this time.

Now you lay out the premise for this thread:

“I, for one, have been pondering just why so many of the posters on here truly seem to hate America and Americans.”

Now if this were an earnest attempt to truly “understand” the other posters, then I would be inclined to give you a point. However, since you have already challenged the mental capacity of these so called posters who you are trying to “understand”, and put them on the defensive, then I will have to suggest Minus 1 more point for you.

Here are some of the reasons I believe thre are so many on here who post knee-jerk anti-Americanism:
Once again, if anyone posts anything that can be construed as anti-American, then their opinion is “knee-jerk”? Minus 1 more point for you.

Well we aren’t even into the meat and potatoes of your post and by my count, you are down 4 points already.

1. We make a good target. Anyone on top in any field of endeavour is automatically highly visible. Attacking them is easy and fun for those with lesser achievements.
Assuming that you are a “target”, and assuming that you are on top in your field of endeavour, that people with “lesser achievements” want to attack you because it is “easy and fun”'? Please spare me. Minus 1 more point for you.

My personal thoughts on this matter. Remove the perceived “target” off your back and get out of Iraq, as soon as is humanly possible. I believe that this attack against Iraq is an absolute failure and makes the region and the world far more dangerous.

2. Differing opinions on the response to 9/11. 9/11 was a wake-up call for America. It was seen as an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked. Traditionally, America is quick to respond to this sort of thing ( see Peral Harbor ). Many who post on here apparently agree with the position presented to me by a foreign national almost immediately after 9/11: "Just forget it and move on." This is not the way America responds to attacks on its civilians on its own soil.
Many as in most again? I truly believe that most people around the world were in shock when this tragedy occurred and many supported the retaliatory strikes against Afghanistan, my country and myself included. I think you are being less than honest for suggesting otherwise.

I also believe that the invasion of Iraq, was “an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked”. The grandiose “Shock and Awe” campaign that ensued, sickened me. To me, this was no different then the planes that flew into the WTC and Pentagon

3. Envy. Many of the anti_american posters on here are from nations which have been superpowers in the past: Germany, France, Russia, even Great Britain. There is a degree of envy at the impact America and American actions have on their own countries at this point in time, witness the so-called "cultural imperialism" allegations. This is most often used by Germans ( who tried their damndest to conquer the entire world! ), and French ( who managed to reach Moscow before the weather decimated them ). Which is worse, taking over another country by force, or taking over a portion of another country's culture by offering good products and services at a reasonable price?
Do you really think that most people that express anti-American sentiments are envious of your troops dying in the Middle East sandbox? From what I have seen and read, it is the fact that innocent people are dying in an unnecessary war. It is also the fact that many can see an agenda that goes beyond Iraq, into countries such as Iran and North Korea. Many see the possibility of a global conflict that could inadvertently involve the use of nuclear weapons and that this is resulting in a new arms race. To think that it is envy by the other posters speaks to your perceived arrogance. Minus 1 more point for you.

4. Resentment at having America presume to advocate a better form of government ( democracy ) for people who have been unable to attain it for themselves.
Forcing “democracy” on people who have a totally different ideology is arrogant on your part if you believe that is “better” for them. Minus 1 more point for you.

5. Fear that America is finally recognizing that its influence and power are capable of changing the world.
Oh there is fear alright. Fear that the world is a more dangerous place and that US foreign policy could result in a global catastrophe. Proclaiming that the US will use its’ “influence and power” to change the world, without consultation is dictatorial in nature and certainly worthy of being challenged by so called anti-Americans. Since you support this doctrine, Minus 1 more point for you.

I've noted that some on here who claim that America is trying to establish an empire seem to fear that, now that America is hitting her stride, their own country will be somehow "taken over." This despite the fact that America has never kept territory from any of the nations she defeated, other than a few small islands for naval and airforce bases, which were used to defend other nations.
Most imperialistic nations tend to go into other countries, take what they want and when there is nothing left of any significant value, they leave. Now we all know that the US lifeblood is oil, and we also know that the world’s 2nd largest reserves are in Iraq. How convenient is that? And I guess while the US is there, they should build 14 “enduring” military bases (http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040323-enduring-bases.htm). Oh and while you are at it, might as well hijack the Iraqi economy as well through Bremer’s Orders (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/after/2004/0120ambitions.htm).

These are some of the reasons I see for anti-Americansim. This thread is not suppose to be flame-bait, but rather just the perspective of one American on this issue. Please at least try to present your arguments in a calm, logical, reasoned manner, rather than simply saying something along the lines of "America sucks!"
I will agree that some posters are over zealous in their anti-Americanism, but that doesn’t come just from posters outside your country. There are many Americans who totally oppose the direction that America is taking, so even your initial premise is wrong. I do care about America and I do care about this world and if you think this is a “knee-jerk” post than that would be your problem and not mine.

You tend to side with the Bush government right or wrong and you classify anyone who cares to challenge that ideology as being anti-America or anti-American. Perhaps you need to understand why there are so many and try to understand why they feel the way they do, instead of trying to insult their intelligence through the use of threads such as this one?

Manawskistan

06-03-2005, 04:10

lol what

Alright, I've read your post, and after calling in a translator, I think I know what you're trying to say. I certainly hope you do not come from an English speaking nation. The considerable butchery (haha) of my mother tongue brought a tear to my eye. It wasn't a tear of joy.

You're one of the 'anti-team' as you say. Bully for you, good sir. And now I'm going to have to pick you apart as an arrogant and ignorant American since we all are ignorant and arrogant simply because we were born in a certain geographical area. This puts me at a certain disadvantage, but I'm up to the challenge because I'm arrogant.

I've seen good arguements FOR the US and they get ignored just as quickly by your EU counterparts. That's how this board works. That's how humanity works. That's how nature works. Imagine electricity in a wire, two resistors are in parallel. When the current meets those resistors, which one is going to have a greater amount of current (more electrons) through it? The path with... least resistance. Yeah. Least resistance. People are like electrons in that aspect. Nobody's going to say "Yeah, alright, here's a well formed arguement, let's spend a couple hours studying and see if I can put up a fight." Hell no, that's not worth it! If I were a European, I'd look for some halfwit that says something totally off base ("We saved your asses in WWII" is a perfect example) and then simply roast the mofo. And as such, every European on this board whips out the guns when someone says something like that. Did the person deserve the flames? Yes. Will it stop that person from posting again? I bet not. In some more 'clique-y' forums that I frequent, a bad enough flame WILL get a poster to stop. The lovely thing about this forum in particular is that there really is no heirarchy of posters as such. Yeah, there are some more well known posters, but there's no one poster that will come in, say something and then discussion is over (Unless it's a mod, but we're not going there).

The UN data about standards of living. Anyone who's been on this forum for more than half an hour has seen it. We know that Norway is on the top. We know that the EU rules the top of that list. Will a less informed American say the data is wrong? You've seen it. I don't need to answer that. As a student of the physical sciences, I can tell you that sometimes a set of data is not what it seems. Because the USA is, what... seventh in the rankings, does that alone make it an inferior country? Most certainly not. There are countries other than Norway that are good to live in, believe it or not. I'm not denying the data listed, but for you to use that data as a be-all end-all in your arguement of "EU Rulz US Drulz" (That's pretty much my 2 semi-word 2 Acronym summary of your post) is quite frankly... moronic. Correlation != Causation and some other phrases are somewhat applicable. What if I place military strength on a higher pedestal than 'quality of living' in my definition of what makes a country better than another? The USA is pretty good then, no? "Quality of living" as a term is ambiguous in and of itself, but I've got other things to cover, and I don't really want to get semantic tonight.

Now, I'm going to give you a mathematical proof, straight from Linear Algebra which I've been studying in the last couple hours. Most != All. the != means "not equal to." Do you want to know why you only see bad posts from American posters? It's because that's all you're looking for. One thing that both helps a person and harms them at the same time on the internet is the joy of anonymity. I bet if I came on here, took the little "location" thing out of my namebar, you'd think I was from Canada or something. There are plenty of people on here that you've been praising for their well informed anti-US arguements, and they are from the USA themselves! But there's a problem here, Houston! How can those ignorant and arrogant Americans make a post so well informed when all they've been exposed to is Republican propaganda?! Simple. We don't subscribe to Republican propaganda. I know that's a lot for you to swallow, so I'll start a new paragraph, and you can start reading that after you go out for a smoke or whatever it is you guys do when you have a revelation.

Ok, now that you're back... Spheres of influence. I personally think the SoI is on it's way out as a good indicator of political control. It's too simplistic in this day and age. Yes, back when you had to send a really big army to go take something over and whole navies were going at it on the high seas the concept of one sovereign nation controlling a political area was very easy to use. You know as well as I do that the political climate has complicated itself to such a degree that no one country really controls anything outside of what they held a couple decades ago. Let's thank the UN for this. I'm serious, I'd like to THANK THE UN. I AM AN AMERICAN. I AM NOT BEING SARCASTIC, EITHER. Now, yes, the US government has a propensity to ignore the UN, but other countries are not willing to take that step, and I personally believe that the UN has been very helpful in keeping countries in check as far as imperialistic expansion is concerned. No one country has their hand in another country completely and by completely I mean "WE OWN YOU" in the 1800's sense. There's always been a greater watchdog. Is America rolling on Iraq* right now? Yes. Is America using it's military power to install American companies to do work there? YES. Do I agree with that? HELL NO. Am I responsible for the actions of the United States Government. HELL NO. If I had an avatar right now, it would say 'Don't blame me, I voted for Kerry' and that was just because I thought Badnarik was a bit nutty.

I have a feeling that a few of the arguments you think are good on your side revolve around one lynch pin. Here's the answer. Americans are not directly responsible for the actions of her government. This was a very close election recently. The political system here is FUBAR. There's too much polarization. Either you're Conservative or you're Liberal, and that's that. Once you take a line, you've got to take the flak for the worst your party has to offer. I bet I've ruined the last bit of my arguement by now saying that my political orientation is moderately conservative. Perhaps you've quit reading, but this doesn't mean I have to agree with George Bush. In fact, I wish he would stop, collaborate and LISTEN TO THE OTHER HALF OF HIS CONSTITUENCY. I've got 25 years before I can be president, hopefully the Libertarian party will be in good shape nationally by then ;)

I'm free to consider any 'anti' beliefs you may have, and I'll do my best to give you a logical rundown of why you're completely wrong** ;)

* - By "Rolling" I mean "Occupying"

** - Just kidding.

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 04:31

Appeasement. Yes it happened. The whole of the West took this line, including the USA. Do not lay the blame at the feet of others to try to escape it yourself. The USA kept this line on Europe until 1941. The Brits went to war in 1939. The appeasement ended sooner for us than for the USA.

Since the U.S. wasn't having ANY of its Territories challenged what was it YOU think we should have done that we didn't do?

You have heard of the American Pilots who flew for the Brittish Empire LONG before the U.S. entered the War, have you not? You are also aware of the equipment that was being sold to England through the "Lend Lease Act" in the late 30's, are you not? So what else would you have had us do that we were not already doing?

Protecting a totalitarian regime in Saudi Arabia is not mentioned, the support of the murder of innocent people due to an aggresive expansionist policy from Israel is not mentioned. But countenancing, which means offering moral support, of suicide bombings is, but no evidence is presented. No examples are given. Protecting non existent democracies in the middle east is also mentioned. Rhetoric devices with no factual content.

When has Saudi Arabia ever attacked one of their neighboring Countries? Israel isn't a Democracy? Turkey isn't a Democracy?

Had/has Saudi Arabia been ignoring 17 UN Resolutions for well over a decade? Are they shooting at OUR Pilots flying the no-fly zone in their Country?

Careful chicken little, the sky will fall on your head. What crusade? There are a few fanatic Muslims who are following their agenda, their are a few fanatic Christians who are following theirs. This has always been the case, it will always be the case. It represents no threat whatsoever to our civilization. This is tar brushing without evidence again.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to post a link to the last time any "fanatic Christian" has flown a Jet Airliner loaded with fuel into a Muslim Building? Not sure about you, but I believe that those types of actions from "fanatic Muslims" do indeed represent a threat to our civilization.

Perhaps you would like to tell the victims of 9/11 that you feel they pose no threat?

If the evaluation is to be as detailed as that given to Reagan's role in the end of the Cold War then it is a foregone conclusion. The solidarity movement with Lech Walesa had no part in the end of the Cold War then? Go read an actual examination (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/1350/essays/coldwar.html) of the factors involved. Reagan may have been a factor, but he did not bring about the end of the Cold War. .

Interesting that you want to focus YOUR discussion on whether Reagan should be given ALL of the credit, rather than talk about the fact that he was at least willing to "fight the good fight" just as Bush is doing now...

What Islamic war against democracy? No attacks were made against Turkey, a Democracy right on the border of Iraq, nor on Egypt, another democracy. No the attack was made by fanatics against a perceived USA imperialism. Not on Western Democracy.

Something tells me you aren't looking hard enough...

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=102

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/egyptterrorism10027.html

He obviously did not look at the state of the US economy before the war. There is a tradition that when the internal politics are up the creek, find a war to fight. This has happened over and over again. Find your own examples as any comparison I make will be considered flamming. What is realy at stake. The US oil supply. That could be interpreted as everything, but only from a very narrow perspective.

So we were "looking" for a War in 1776 and 1812 and 1861 and 1914 and 1941 and...

Give me a break! We could have BOUGHT MUCH MORE Oil with the money we are spending fighting this War, so how is it you can say that we have “secured” anything by being there?

They are sure of their priorities, their profits. Or are you going to argue that certain influential companies (via Richard Ch. for example) are not making huge profits on this. To interfere in another country is not a matter of cost, it is a matter of international law.

Just as invasion of a sovereign Country and disregarding 10+ tears of 17 UN Resolutions, right?

To be concerned about the welfare of your own citizens is, as I understand it the primary duty of any government. It apears to be one that the Bush administration has forgotten.

Something about the "security" of the Nation that helps ensure the people's "welfare" that YOU don't understand?

OK, satisfied. This has been selective as the whole text is so badly skewed to a hawk position it is unbelievable.

No, not really.

Why is it you don’t address the negatives we Americans are having to endure to fight this War?

I see you also decided not to address the "Oil for Food" Program and how it might relate to why these other countries were unwilling to help in the War in Iraq, why is that?

Regards,
Gaar

Planners

06-03-2005, 04:41

First of all America is the most powerful country in the world so it is held to a standard that is unnatainable.

Also hearing a blatanly ignorant comment made by an American to a very polite Canadian, asking if our main governmental building is the outhouse. Soured my feelings slightly towards Americans.

Also I am a Canadian it is our national past time.

Salutus

06-03-2005, 04:53

Alright, I've read your post, and after calling in a translator, I think I know what you're trying to say. I certainly hope you do not come from an English speaking nation. The considerable butchery (haha) of my mother tongue brought a tear to my eye. It wasn't a tear of joy.

You're one of the 'anti-team' as you say. Bully for you, good sir. And now I'm going to have to pick you apart as an arrogant and ignorant American. Since we all are ignorant and arrogant simply because we were born in a certain geographical area. This puts me at a certain disadvantage, but I'm up to the challenge because I'm arrogant.

*as ace ventura* DAMN you're good! :p

Manawskistan

06-03-2005, 04:56

*as ace ventura* DAMN you're good! :p

I do what I can ;)

Sumamba Buwhan

06-03-2005, 05:00

*standing ovation for CanuckHeaven*

Wong Cock

06-03-2005, 05:06

America puts itself in the limelight and is therefore an easy target.

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 05:17

The Black Forrest

06-03-2005, 05:26

Aah. So Mexico just gave you California cause they liked you so much?
And those bases were not installed to defend other nations. They were installed to keep the US save.

A different era, a different attitude. The Americans of the day never hid their plans about Manifest Destiny.

As to the bases, they were installed for both reasons. Defending Germany(for example) helped keep America safe.

The Peoples Communes

06-03-2005, 06:04

1. We make a good target. Anyone on top in any field of endeavour is automatically highly visible. Attacking them is easy and fun for those with lesser achievements.

The achievements for the American ruling class are not achievements for the rest of the world. Did the entire world attack Socialist China when it was the most powerful nation in the world? No, because it didn't parade around the world looking for the greatest profits and new indigenous environments it could consume. Fuck US imperialism.

2. Differing opinions on the response to 9/11. 9/11 was a wake-up call for America. It was seen as an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked. Traditionally, America is quick to respond to this sort of thing ( see Peral Harbor ). Many who post on here apparently agree with the position presented to me by a foreign national almost immediately after 9/11: "Just forget it and move on." This is not the way America responds to attacks on its civilians on its own soil.

Oh please. It never ceases to amaze me how Americans are STILL whining about the middle east taking 6000 lives when the USA alone is responsible for taking 1.4 million Middle Eastern lives in the last decade alone, and upholds the largest terrorist state in the Middle East. THE STATE OF ISRAEL

3. Envy. Many of the anti_american posters on here are from nations which have been superpowers in the past: Germany, France, Russia, even Great Britain. There is a degree of envy at the impact America and American actions have on their own countries at this point in time, witness the so-called "cultural imperialism" allegations. This is most often used by Germans ( who tried their damndest to conquer the entire world! ), and French ( who managed to reach Moscow before the weather decimated them ). Which is worse, taking over another country by force, or taking over a portion of another country's culture by offering good products and services at a reasonable price?

Your reduction of people to nationalism disgusts me. The world is divded by classes, not nations. The fact that Russian people who actually understand Dialectics (unlike you Americans who do not leanr it in schools) simply reinforces their hatred for US Imperialism. Do you think the members of these nations like having their countries defaced with your corporate logos, raped of their culture?

4. Resentment at having America presume to advocate a better form of government ( democracy ) for people who have been unable to attain it for themselves.

The USA does no such thing. The USA advocates CAPITALISM and nothing else. Look at Nepal. They uphold a king who supports their economic needs while the calling those are actually fighting for democracy in Nepal terrorists. Let's not forget Saddam Hussein was a popularly elected leader twice before they pulled him out of power for not trading with them.

5. Fear that America is finally recognizing that its influence and power are capable of changing the world. I've noted that some on here who claim that America is trying to establish an empire seem to fear that, now that America is hitting her stride, their own country will be somehow "taken over." This despite the fact that America has never kept territory from any of the nations she defeated, other than a few small islands for naval and airforce bases, which were used to defend other nations.

You are completely missing the point of the American Empire. The empire's purpose is to exploit indigenous people's around the world for cheap labor and natural resources. One cannot do that as easily f they are citizens, because their economy because the US economy and therefore cannot be raped. But even if this were not the case, the USA has seized various countries in the past for it's own profit such as Panama, Hawaii, and the Phillipines. In either scenario the purpose of the USA's military conquests are to install puppet governments and establish good trade relations to maximize profits for the American ruling class.

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 06:17

Let's not forget Saddam Hussein was a popularly elected leader twice.

Yeah, so was Hitler...

What's your point?

The Black Forrest

06-03-2005, 07:09

Because I am bored....

Did the entire world attack Socialist China when it was the most powerful nation in the world? No, because it didn't parade around the world looking for the greatest profits and new indigenous environments it could consume. Fuck US imperialism.

Ahh and China has nothing to do with deforrestation in Malaysia. The Orangs that are taken as pets? China will replace us as the consumer of oil.

Oh please. It never ceases to amaze me how Americans are STILL whining about the middle east taking 6000 lives when the USA alone is responsible for taking 1.4 million Middle Eastern lives in the last decade alone, and upholds the largest terrorist state in the Middle East. THE STATE OF ISRAEL

Wow and if you knew anything of the Americans, you would understand why. It was 2812 lives BTW. The last time such destruction was leveled on the US soil was by our British Cousins in 1812. Even in Oklahoma and the first trade center bombings; it didn't level the place. Maybe people weren't really shocked by it as we are used to Hurricane damage, earthquake damage. But to see planes smashing into the buildings?

As to the ME :rolleyes: It's all about oil so yes we support them. It's the one country that doesn't have a chance at becoming a theocracy at any moment. Does it make it right? No. But to say Israel is the only source of evil in the region is rather limited thought. Both sides have done great evil.

Before you start. I have been to the ME.

Your reduction of people to nationalism disgusts me. The world is divded by classes, not nations. The fact that Russian people who actually understand Dialectics (unlike you Americans who do not leanr it in schools) simply reinforces their hatred for US Imperialism. Do you think the members of these nations like having their countries defaced with your corporate logos, raped of their culture?

Classes eh? :rolleyes:

Oh and we never learn dialectics? :rolleyes:

As to corporate imperialism? To use your phrase, it amazes me that people say that hate everything american and yet they partake of American products and frequent the big chains(ie McDonalds). You can argue that our money forced our way into countries but how are the people being forced to eat our fastfood crap? Why are they buying our products? You don't like it. Then don't buy anything with a US logo.

Let's not forget Saddam Hussein was a popularly elected leader twice before they pulled him out of power for not trading with them.

A popular leader doensn't have to launch gas attacks on people. A popular leader doesn't need the Fedayeen Sadaam. Even with the recent elections it seems the Shiite liked the idea of Shiite leaders. Sorry your statement is like saying South Africa liked the apartied goverment since they were elected.

You are completely missing the point of the American Empire. The empire's purpose is to exploit indigenous people's around the world for cheap labor and natural resources.

As are any industrialized nations. I know a ranger in Malaysia that will tell you some interesting stories of Japanese and Chinese tactics.

One cannot do that as easily f they are citizens, because their economy because the US economy and therefore cannot be raped. But even if this were not the case, the USA has seized various countries in the past for it's own profit such as Panama, Hawaii, and the Phillipines. In either scenario the purpose of the USA's military conquests are to install puppet governments and establish good trade relations to maximize profits for the American ruling class.

:rolleyes: And England liked the Suez because it help peoples lives. And the Soviets only wanted to improve peoples lives. Europe wanted to improve the lives of the Africans. Europe wanted to improve the lives of Asia.....

Hello Pot meet kettle.....

Andaluciae

06-03-2005, 07:28

The achievements for the American ruling class are not achievements for the rest of the world. Did the entire world attack Socialist China when it was the most powerful nation in the world? No, because it didn't parade around the world looking for the greatest profits and new indigenous environments it could consume. Fuck US imperialism.
Socialist China as the most powerful nation in the world? Really...

From what I know about socialism in China, it started at the beginning of the Cold War, when the US and the USSR were the two most powerful nations. China, by comparison, only had lot's of manpower. China does not have the global force projection capacity of the US, the UK or France (or during the Cold War, Russia as well). Perhaps that's why they didn't go parading around. China has not been the most powerful nation in the world for hundreds of years.

Oh please. It never ceases to amaze me how Americans are STILL whining about the middle east taking 6000 lives when the USA alone is responsible for taking 1.4 million Middle Eastern lives in the last decade alone, and upholds the largest terrorist state in the Middle East. THE STATE OF ISRAEL
Why do we support Israel? Simple. They are stable. So stable, that in fact they are the only nation in the top twelve recipients of US aid who hasn't defaulted on paying us back. The reason they get money from the US is because they have a good credit history.

Your reduction of people to nationalism disgusts me. The world is divded by classes, not nations. The fact that Russian people who actually understand Dialectics (unlike you Americans who do not leanr it in schools) simply reinforces their hatred for US Imperialism. Do you think the members of these nations like having their countries defaced with your corporate logos, raped of their culture?
Dialectics is bull. That should stand as obvious. The assumption that there are two forces, no more, no less, involved in the world is silly. The world is a complex place, chaotic, random. Not organized. Any study of the way the world works ought to display this fairly rapidly.

The USA does no such thing. The USA advocates CAPITALISM and nothing else. Look at Nepal. They uphold a king who supports their economic needs while the calling those are actually fighting for democracy in Nepal terrorists. Let's not forget Saddam Hussein was a popularly elected leader twice before they pulled him out of power for not trading with them. Saddam Hussein was elected in a single candidate election. He got 100% of the vote because he was the only candidate that the people could vote for. The elections were neither free nor fair.

And I don't really know about the Nepalese situation.

Akusei

06-03-2005, 08:34

You know, there are a million reasons to hate America

AS A COUNTRY, a single entity, She is arrogant, self-centered, opressive, and meddlesome. She likes to play with countries and make the world in her image- she has a god complex the size of Texas. She even persecutes her own people. She never learned the maxim that you don't go fixing other people unless you yourself are perfect. She prefers to inflict her flawed morals on everyone else.

If she were a citizen in this country, she'd be hated.

However, the CITIZENS of America can be nice, thoghtful, kind, considerate people. I hate America. I don't hate Americans. (I hate people in general sometimes but not on the basis of where they reside). I am an American (sadly), so don't accuse me of envy (the most self-centered thing I've heard people say).

Also, what IS this crap about "9-11" and how we didn't just roll over and take it? Dear lord. People hated us before 9/11 because we're imperialistic. We're the only superpower and have a monopoly on politics. We're like Wal-Mart, moving in and doing what we please because no small country can compete. That's WHY they attacked us. And so we get pissed off and launch a war... against a totally different group of people. Why? They have oil. We need oil. It was convenient.

And we wonder why they hate us?!

To all the American -haters out there, grow up and learn some tolerance.

To all the America -haters out there, kudos. Let's have a party and burn some flags.

Occidio Multus

06-03-2005, 08:38

3. Envy. Many of the anti_american posters on here are from nations which have been superpowers in the past: Germany, France, Russia, even Great Britain. There is a degree of envy at the impact America and American actions have on their own countries at this point in time, witness the so-called "cultural imperialism" allegations. This is most often used by Germans ( who tried their damndest to conquer the entire world! ), and French ( who managed to reach Moscow before the weather decimated them ). Which is worse, taking over another country by force, or taking over a portion of another country's culture by offering good products and services at a reasonable price?

explain canada, then. ;)

The Black Forrest

06-03-2005, 08:44

explain canada, then. ;)

Don't turn your back on those Candian bastards! They are waiting. Waiting to strike! People really don't know how much the US keeps those imperialistic environmental destroyers inline!

Bastards!

Well I was going to leave it at that but considering some people here; I guess I better end with

[/sarcasm]

;)

Occidio Multus

06-03-2005, 08:47

Don't turn your back on those Candian bastards! They are waiting. Waiting to strike! People really don't know how much the US keeps those imperialistic environmental destroyers inline!

Bastards!

Well I was going to leave it at that but considering some people here; I guess I better end with

[/sarcasm]

;)
hahahhahahhahahhahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahah
that was wicked awesome.

Cyrian space

06-03-2005, 08:56

I realize that many of the rabid anti-Americans on here are going to post enlightening things like: "'Cause Americans are stupid!" or "'Cause you keep attacking other countries!" or "'Cause American soldiers are all trigger-happy!" or similar strangeness. But I, for one, have been pondering just why so many of the posters on here truly seem to hate America and Americans.

Here are some of the reasons I believe thre are so many on here who post knee-jerk anti-Americanism:

1. We make a good target. Anyone on top in any field of endeavour is automatically highly visible. Attacking them is easy and fun for those with lesser achievements.

2. Differing opinions on the response to 9/11. 9/11 was a wake-up call for America. It was seen as an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked. Traditionally, America is quick to respond to this sort of thing ( see Peral Harbor ). Many who post on here apparently agree with the position presented to me by a foreign national almost immediately after 9/11: "Just forget it and move on." This is not the way America responds to attacks on its civilians on its own soil.

3. Envy. Many of the anti_american posters on here are from nations which have been superpowers in the past: Germany, France, Russia, even Great Britain. There is a degree of envy at the impact America and American actions have on their own countries at this point in time, witness the so-called "cultural imperialism" allegations. This is most often used by Germans ( who tried their damndest to conquer the entire world! ), and French ( who managed to reach Moscow before the weather decimated them ). Which is worse, taking over another country by force, or taking over a portion of another country's culture by offering good products and services at a reasonable price?

4. Resentment at having America presume to advocate a better form of government ( democracy ) for people who have been unable to attain it for themselves.

5. Fear that America is finally recognizing that its influence and power are capable of changing the world. I've noted that some on here who claim that America is trying to establish an empire seem to fear that, now that America is hitting her stride, their own country will be somehow "taken over." This despite the fact that America has never kept territory from any of the nations she defeated, other than a few small islands for naval and airforce bases, which were used to defend other nations.

These are some of the reasons I see for anti-Americansim. This thread is not suppose to be flame-bait, but rather just the perspective of one American on this issue. Please at least try to present your arguments in a calm, logical, reasoned manner, rather than simply saying something along the lines of "America sucks!"

6: a government turning into a theocracy Where abstinence only education is touted despite the rise in teenage pregnany and STD's it causes, where the president supports teaching creationsim (effectively christianity) in schools, where women may soon lose control over their own uteruses, where until only a year or so ago it was ILLEAGAL in some places to be a practising homosexual. Where the president seems offended at the thought of soldiers practising a non-christian religion, saying that it should not be allowed.

7:A government with no accountability Where CIA agents are fired for bringing up the fact that they tried to WARN the whitehouse that 9/11 was gonna happen, and were ignored for six months. Where the president will never admit that he has made an error. Where no apology is ever made for any mistake.

8: A government propped up by lies Because there WERE NO WMDS IN IRAQ. Because the new medicare plan cost 150 million dollars more than congress was told it would cost. Because government funded abstinence only education says that condems fail one out of six times. Because a trade deficit of 20 billion dollars is not proof that americans are thriving again.

9: A government filled with incompetence and corruption. Where we have a massive deficit, along with tax cuts, where education is likely to disappear, and social security is about to be tied to the stock market, and put into the hands of financial firms (bushes top 5 campaign contributers!)

But really, these are just reasons to hate the government. I love the country, but hate the people in charge. heres some reasons why other people hate america though:

1: We're insulting: FREEDOM FRIES. A lot of us also tend to consider anyone who isn't white and doesn't speak english beneath us.

2: many of us are stupid. A lot of people still think there are WMDs in Iraq. According to this credible source (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/) 11% of us cannot find our OWN COUNTRY on a map of the world! Also, 51% of us voted for George W Bush.

3: We're arrogant We tend to think our country is better than everyone elses, and are often willing to say so to their face. We think down upon just about everyone not American.

I'll think of more later.

SpiceyRose333

06-03-2005, 09:02

Yeah, so was Hitler...

What's your point?

The fact that you came back with that statement suggests you *do* not know your politics.

Sadaam Hussein was elected into power TWICE by the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. WE funded Hussein. We also put Fidel Castro into power.

:headbang:

By the way, just because we're holding elections in the cities of the Middle-East where they've never had elections before doesn't mean it's working. -_- Haven't you guys read the news lately with all the bombings that's going on at poll stations?

Even if someone does get elected, odds are that there's gonna be a John Wilkes Booth ready to take the elected out.

CanuckHeaven

06-03-2005, 09:10

CanuckHeaven, if the World is so much more dangerous, in your OPINION, now because of the Iraq War, perhaps you might like to explain the events in Libya, Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia as well as several others that look like Democracy is EXPANDING and that there is REAL CHANGE happening RIGHT NOW in the Middle East?!?!

I suppose that, just as the Soviet Union "would have fallen" without the U.S. so too you believe that all of these things as well as Elections in Iraq and Afghanistan would have happened anyway?!?!

Yeah, right!

Regards,
Gaar
The events in Libya come after prolonged negotiations between the UK and Libya (http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/438/re3.htm) over the Lockerbie plane crash. Libya has also been crippled by a 7 year embargo that affected the aviation industry and blocked armament imports.

As far as Syria is concerned they were ordered out of Lebanon last fall by U.N. Security Council Resolution 1559. Meanwhile Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri (http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/223136-2444-021.html) and others in his motorcade were killed by a massive car bomb. Some suggest that the bombing may have been the work of al-Qaida.

As far as Palestine is concerned:

A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up outside a crowded beachfront bar late Friday in an attack against Israel that shattered a months-long period of relative calm and instantly threw a shadow over tentative but promising steps toward peace talks (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-bomb26feb26,0,830391.story?coll=la-home-headlines).

Yeah, things are just peachy in Saudi Arabia:

TIMELINE -- TERRORISM IN THE KINGDOM (http://www.saudi-us-relations.org/Fact_Sheets/TimelineTerrorism.html)

I stand by my claim that the world is more dangerous now:

America is making the world more dangerous say most people (http://www.theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=823)

The elections in Iraq were a farce and what is happening in Afghanistan?

Report: Afghanistan Near Drug-State Status (http://www.myafghan.com/news2.asp?id=1736362067)

Yeah right back at you. :eek:

BTW, the Cold War died mostly through attrition. Russia's economy was in severe decline, while the US economy continued to grow. Russia just couldn'r compete anymore.

The Alma Mater

06-03-2005, 09:14

NASA
Achieved many things of great propoganda value, at the cost of a great deal of money. The actual and real benefits of NASA are more than doubtful as of now. They may yet appear in the future however.

NASA has greatly expanded the understanding of the universe - and the porpaganda aspect has sparked quite a lot of imagination. How many kids after all want to be an astronaut when they're young ?
True, quite a lot of the knowledge provided by the science of astronomy has little practical value at the moment - and probably most of it will never have. The same is true for large subfields of e.g. physics. It's up to a society to decide if fundamental research that mostly produces non-tangible things like dreams and understanding are worth investing in. There may every now and then appear surprisingly useful sideeffects (like velcro. Or like electricity when looking for other results of fundamental research that suddenly had practical use) - but that cannot be guaranteed. So those sciences shouldn't be judged on that either.

Davo_301

06-03-2005, 09:32

i don't hate america, i hate bush but that is my opinion

Wakey Bakey

06-03-2005, 10:11

Because it's led by idiots/puppets and the general idiotism brought on by massmedia and such. Nothing against the people there in general. Let's go and save Irak from its oil !!!!

Tomerik

06-03-2005, 10:22

I'm one of the "anti-americans", but I don't hate the american people, I don't hate the US as a nation, and I don't think that americans are as stupid as the european media tries to tell us. I simply strongly dislike the politics that the US government is leading.

And when electing leaders that have politics which impact other nations on such a scale as the politics of the US today does, you will simply have to deal with the fact that others will give their opinions.

Preebles

06-03-2005, 10:24

These are some of the reasons I see for anti-Americansim. This thread is not suppose to be flame-bait, but rather just the perspective of one American on this issue. Please at least try to present your arguments in a calm, logical, reasoned manner, rather than simply saying something along the lines of "America sucks!"

6: a government turning into a theocracy Where abstinence only education is touted despite the rise in teenage pregnany and STD's it causes, where the president supports teaching creationsim (effectively christianity) in schools, where women may soon lose control over their own uteruses, where until only a year or so ago it was ILLEAGAL in some places to be a practising homosexual. Where the president seems offended at the thought of soldiers practising a non-christian religion, saying that it should not be allowed.

7:A government with no accountability Where CIA agents are fired for bringing up the fact that they tried to WARN the whitehouse that 9/11 was gonna happen, and were ignored for six months. Where the president will never admit that he has made an error. Where no apology is ever made for any mistake.

8: A government propped up by lies Because there WERE NO WMDS IN IRAQ. Because the new medicare plan cost 150 million dollars more than congress was told it would cost. Because government funded abstinence only education says that condems fail one out of six times. Because a trade deficit of 20 billion dollars is not proof that americans are thriving again.

9: A government filled with incompetence and corruption. Where we have a massive deficit, along with tax cuts, where education is likely to disappear, and social security is about to be tied to the stock market, and put into the hands of financial firms (bushes top 5 campaign contributers!)

But really, these are just reasons to hate the government. I love the country, but hate the people in charge. heres some reasons why other people hate america though:

1: We're insulting: FREEDOM FRIES. A lot of us also tend to consider anyone who isn't white and doesn't speak english beneath us.

2: many of us are stupid. A lot of people still think there are WMDs in Iraq. According to this credible source 11% of us cannot find our OWN COUNTRY on a map of the world! Also, 51% of us voted for George W Bush.

3: We're arrogant We tend to think our country is better than everyone elses, and are often willing to say so to their face. We think down upon just about everyone not American.

I'll think of more later.

Quoted for emphasis.

I'll add a few points as they come to mind.

a) The US contributes below its economic weight to aid and environmental issues. Yes, I know someone is going to "correct" my by saying that the US gives the most in total. But I believe that a true measure is as a % of GDP. Makes sense to me, and on that scale the US is way below their obligation...

b) This is linked to arrogance. Arrogant foreign policy, the bribing of other countries with promises of aid. For example, how many countries formed part of the "coalition of the willing" because they wanted money out of it? I bet quite a few.

c) The way the US government has turned Australia into the "deputy sheriff." I don't just believe I quoted Mahatir! :p

d) Moralising! The US recently wanted to put a clause into a UN document saying that "abortion is bad," in a nutshell. Ugh.

I'm sure there are more. And of course these are reasons to hate the government, not the people. We'll judge those on a case by case basis. ;)

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 10:42

Socialist China ... Fuck US imperialism. The world is divded by classes, not nations. ... Russian people who actually understand Dialectics ... The USA advocates CAPITALISM and nothing else. ... the American Empire. ... maximize profits for the American ruling class.
Are you an actual Marxist? How very, very quaint! :D

Bitchkitten

06-03-2005, 10:46

Hey Eutrusca, I've heard old folks don't need much sleep. Does that mean I can look forward to getting even less sleep? :D

Windly Queef

06-03-2005, 10:46

I'm sure there are more. And of course these are reasons to hate the government, not the people. We'll judge those on a case by case basis. ;)

The US government doesn't nescessarily represent the people. I think that is often a misconception people derive. Although I can't say that's completely through.

Personally, I like the general format of our Republic, but I wish it was altered in a few way.

I'm not a 'hater', so while I very much dislike my paycheck getting robbed from me, I don't wish to see anyone fall...but that's the nature of this game, and someone has to. That being said, the end of this overbloated hegemony is coming; I just hope that it remains peaceful.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 10:48

Hey Eutrusca, I've heard old folks don't need much sleep. Does that mean I can look forward to getting even less sleep? :D
Well, not being one of those "old folks" to whom you refer, I really wouldn't know! :D

Menkare

06-03-2005, 10:51

Quite frankly the blanket "I'm sick of America/Americans", and explanations that have the words "you" in it immediately inspire me to tune out. It's all in the choice of words used. If argued sloppily it implies that every citizen of this country supports the policies of current and past administrations, argues in a subtle way that we as Americans are a monolith of ignorance, fundamentalism and imperial attitudes.

If those having a problem with the United States really want to have some dialogue as opposed to continuing to sound whiny, discussion would go a lot further if there is talk about the policy, or the administration pushing forth the policy, as opposed to making blanket statements about a nation's people. To do otherwise is inaccurate, sloppy, and reveals a level of ignorance which supposedly characterizes their object of criticism. Furthermore, just as U.S. citizens as a whole seem to be reminded nonstop of the diversity of opinion, ethnicity, etc., in the world, the world needs to start recognizing that about the United States as well.

We all as members of a world that is becoming "smaller" by the day would do well not to automatically believe whatever we read, combat ignorance with knowledge and truth, challenge our long-held belief about others, and be willing to look critically at the impact our nations have on the world.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 10:53

... the end of this overbloated hegemony is coming; I just hope that it remains peaceful.
Care to explain this, or are you just blowing smoke?? :headbang:

Chambobo

06-03-2005, 10:54

One of the things we must realize here, is that the US now realizes that it has made mistakes in the past. We realize that our support of dictators during the cold war has created a brew that tastes downright nasty. As such, we are trying to remedy our mistakes, one by one. We are starting in the middles east, but we are trying to spread it out. I

Maybe America is making new decisions from the old ones.

America is only starting in the middle east because that's where the oils is and the 9/11 terrorists are in the general area so bush could convince us that the middle east is one big country. Really though, I don't like the people on here saying 'all americans are ignorant' or anything. you think we all support Bush, Clinton or the damb foreign policy people? People hate America because our government is corrupt, our people are mostly blinded by patriotism, and our corperations are so strong they influence the government to prop up dictators, fuel civil wars, ect. to keep foreigners poor and prices low. this is probably because of our great economy but w/e.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 10:55

The Alma Mater

06-03-2005, 10:56

Furthermore, just as U.S. citizens as a whole seem to be reminded nonstop of the diversity of opinion, ethnicity, etc., in the world, the world needs to start recognizing that about the United States as well.

The world might do that the moment the USA appears to listen, and those other opinions speak up more. I realise the first post of this topicwas made by an individual - but to me it is one that cries out "there is only one way to do things - our way. There is only one set of morals right - our morals. There is only one culture worthy - our culture".
Even when one replaces "our" by "my" it still seems to be the opinion of the vocal majority.

Bitchkitten

06-03-2005, 10:57

Yay Menkare!

Good morning Eutrusca. I'd like to stay and talk :fluffle: but I need a little sleep. I have a birthday party to go to today.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 10:59

Yay Menkare!

Good morning Eutrusca. I'd like to stay and talk :fluffle: but I need a little sleep. I have a birthday party to go to today.
Yours, or someone else's?

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 11:00

The world might do that the moment the USA appears to listen, and those other opinions speak up more. I realise the first post of this topicwas made by an individual - but to me it is one that cries out "there is only one way to do things - our way. There is only one set of morals right - our morals. There is only one culture worthy - our culture".
Even when one replaces "our" by "my" it still seems to be the opinion of the vocal majority.
This makes no sense to me. Care to elaborate??

The Alma Mater

06-03-2005, 11:08

This makes no sense to me. Care to elaborate??

Already done a bit of that a few pages ago ;) I believe a few others did too.
I admit it was short and not really wellwritten though.. so I'll try to write something longer when I have time.

EDIT: this may be interesting reading in the meantime:
http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html

Bitchkitten

06-03-2005, 11:13

Yours, or someone else's?

Mines Monday, my uncles is tommorow and both my roommates' (they're twins) is next week. It's a combination party. Plus I have to send out a lot of cards. My sister's is the 9th, an aunt on the 12th, my dad the 16th and a brother the 18th. Evidently my family gets pretty frisky mid-summer. :p

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 11:13

Already done a bit of that a few pages ago ;) I believe a few others did too.
I admit it was short and not really wellwritten though.. so I'll try to write something longer when I have time.

EDIT: this may be interesting reading in the meantime:
http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html
Well, without further elaboration from you, the only thing I can conclude from your post is that you ae projecting your own interpretation onto what I actually said. From my perspective, I neither stated nor even indicated that I thought "our way is the only way." I suspect your preconcieved notions are showing.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 11:14

Mines Monday, my uncles is tommorow and both my roommates' (they're twins) is next week. It's a combination party. Plus I have to send out a lot of cards. My sister's is the 9th, an aunt on the 12th, my dad the 16th and a brother the 18th. Evidently my family gets pretty frisky mid-summer. :p
Hehehe! I'll try to keep that in mind! :D

[ makes note in calender to contact BK sometime in July ] :D

The Alma Mater

06-03-2005, 11:15

Well, without further elaboration from you, the only thing I can conclude from your post is that you ae projecting your own interpretation onto what I actually said. From my perspective, I neither stated nor even indicated that I thought "our way is the only way." I suspect your preconcieved notions are showing.

After rereading the topic when awake you are in fact quite right. My apologies.

Deltaepsilon

06-03-2005, 11:23

The dismissive and condescending tone of the first post in this thread isn't going to help your case any. The arrogance this exhibits is part of what has engendered the enmity of so many abroad. Now, generalizations are never completely accurate, but the US does tend to flaunt its status as a superpower, as do its citizens, and it does have a history of dishonest and/or reckless foriegn policy. The moral proselytizing is a little irritating too. Even to a resident.

The "america haters" aren't going to read that and agree that yeah, the only reason they could possibly disagree is because you are right and they are stupid and/or ignorant. The only thing I can think of that fits with the intelligence I know you possess is that you were hoping to get the opposition mad and thereby stupid, or to exploit the stupidy of some of its members, so that they would respond with bigoted and self-righteous rants or ad hominum attacks which you thought would illustrate your point. Thusly I dub it flamebait.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 11:32

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 11:35

After rereading the topic when awake you are in fact quite right. My apologies.
No apologies necessary. After reading the article to which you link, it seems to me that the author has a valid point. This quote in particular resonates with me: "Europeans generally believe their objection to American unilateralism is proof of their greater commitment to certain ideals concerning world order. They are less willing to acknowledge that their hostility to unilateralism is also self-interested. Europeans fear American unilateralism. They fear it perpetuates a Hobbesian world in which they may become increasingly vulnerable. The United States may be a relatively benign hegemon, but insofar as its actions delay the arrival of a world order more conducive to the safety of weaker powers, it is objectively dangerous."

Hogsweat

06-03-2005, 11:41

You know why America doesn't have any substantially good reputation in the U.K? It's because the British are "Tea drinking, crumpet eating, posh fags". The French are "Frog eaters" and "cowards." The Russians are "Commies" and "Russkies"

Because America is on top of the world, because it's Youth think that they are superior to any other nations, is why there is a worldwide dislike of America. People blame it on "imperialism" or "oil greedy Bush" but to be honest, I don't think that's the reason - I hate republicans, but I don't think it's the reason. It's because, when encountering other cultures, a fair percentage of Americans find them as alien and so the mockery and criticisation begins.

Oh, and i'm an anti democrat. I don't find it is a good agenda to invade people and waste lives to make "democracy" when the world simply could have removed it's embargo's on Iraq.

And for the record, Britain had early democracy before America even existed as a state, in fact, when America was a British colony there was Democracy in Britain.

Disclaimer
I am not trying to make out America sucks. I am not trying to say Europe, or anywhere else is better than the US. I am an internationalist - i find all races and nationalities are equal.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 12:33

Falhaar

06-03-2005, 12:58

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 13:07

I think some people here may be confusing "Anti-Americans" (of whom I've encountered very few in person), with people who simply don't agree with SOME of the policies and decisions made by the government of the USA over the past 80 years.
I suspect that you are correct. A large part of that seems to be due to a combination of simple misunderstanding, and a lack of temperance in the language of others. This article seems to address some of the sources for the misunderstanding: http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html

06-03-2005, 13:08

Quoted for emphasis.

I'll add a few points as they come to mind.

a) The US contributes below its economic weight to aid and environmental issues. Yes, I know someone is going to "correct" my by saying that the US gives the most in total. But I believe that a true measure is as a % of GDP. Makes sense to me, and on that scale the US is way below their obligation...

b) This is linked to arrogance. Arrogant foreign policy, the bribing of other countries with promises of aid. For example, how many countries formed part of the "coalition of the willing" because they wanted money out of it? I bet quite a few.

c) The way the US government has turned Australia into the "deputy sheriff." I don't just believe I quoted Mahatir! :p

d) Moralising! The US recently wanted to put a clause into a UN document saying that "abortion is bad," in a nutshell. Ugh.

I'm sure there are more. And of course these are reasons to hate the government, not the people. We'll judge those on a case by case basis. ;)

The obligation? Devoloped nations are not obligated to help anyone, if they choose to do so, great, but they are not obligated.

Preebles

06-03-2005, 13:15

The obligation? Devoloped nations are not obligated to help anyone, if they choose to do so, great, but they are not obligated.
I meant the obligation to the commitment the US made to the UN, to give x% of ther GDP. They fall WAY short.

And I think they should be obligated, but thats just me with the humanitarianism . :rolleyes:

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 13:27

I meant the obligation to the commitment the US made to the UN, to give x% of ther GDP. They fall WAY short.
Huh? Source for this please. I've never heard that the US made any comittment to give a percentage of its GDP to the UN!

Kadria

06-03-2005, 13:33

I don't hate americans, I just hate their governemnts, and this is big difference.
Please my american friend, don't mix the people with their governement. I don't hate any people (on contrary of your president that is labelling countries as a whole as "evil", gouverned and gouvernements altogether), since that is stupid,absurd, and pointless. how could one hate a whole people, except a fascist?
Your governements has been very bad with many other countries since a long time, and if u cut off fox and take a serious history book , or just have a look at the history of the U.N. resolutions , u will see that the speeches and the facts differ widely :
The U.S have more than once directly participate or sustained state terrorism of unlegitimate governements acting against their own people, or overthrow democratically :
ask south-vietnam, nicaragua, salvador, Cuba phillipines, lebannon, turkey, Iran, To be continued. In facts, the us use democracy as a cover, and they have often collaborated with dictatorships if business was good.
Ask the south americans where the wave of violence that spread in latin america from the 60's till today came from. Very few would say USSR.
Ask the Reagan administration how they considered the "terrorists" of the ANC of Nelson Mandela.
Ask the cuban people why the usa didn't want castro but prefered Batista's collaborating dictatorship( not because batista was a humanist for sure).
Ask the people of colombias who sells the weapons to the three armies fighting an destroying their country and who , finally, has the power to stop that war.
Ask the venzuelians why there is columbians comandos trained in florida that are captured next to Caracas and whose mission was to "cut Chavez head" (this happened this month). Chavez has been elected, and has a very large popular approval. But he recently bought some weapons to Russia ,cause us don't want to sell him some, and that makes him a terrible threat to that poor unarmed country that are the us.
I will stop there for you could ask many many countries why they hate the so-compassionate Usa.
Ask yourself why the usa did not ride their white horse in 1939 to free Europe from Fascism and waited until their interests were endangered to go into war against the nazis. The us was pleased with a fascist Europe, for it destroyed the leftists and the workers movements, and allowed a larger and greater economic penetration than ever before. Quote of the us ambassador in mussolini's Italia in 37, william Philips: he found "numerous facts" showing that the fascists could "represent a real democracy, for their central goal is the well-being of the people" (translated from english to french to english, but the meaning is there!) As with saddam, they had no problem buissnessing with dictators until they don't need them anymore or they threaten us interests

quote"We make a good target"
Sure by invading with no reasons (with reasons that were lies sorry), by financing or just closing the eyes on state terrorism worldwide (ask the survivors of the 2002 massacre of the Jenine camp supported by your governement) u bet u're a good target.

quote:"Resentment at having America presume to advocate a better form of government ( democracy ) for people who have been unable to attain it for themselves." you mean the type of democracy that u've got? Do u know that your electoral system is considered archaïc by legislative lawyers worldwide and that no country, even after years of Saddam, could be so dumb as to use it as a model?

Quote : "Differing opinions on the response to 9/11." I agree with that after 9/11 the whole world, truly felt sadness and solidarity toward the Us and your govt spoilt it by bombing afghanistan straight on, without listening to the possible diplomatic extradition of the possible guilty people. Because their fanatic leaders welcomed a mad terrorist, the peoples of afghanistan have been severly bombed, entire cities were destroyed in a second. your gov could have acted peacefully and diplomatically to find and judge the guilty, as a mighty great lord sur of its strenght, after 9/11 and he would have gained international respect for that Many deaths could have been avoided by diplomacy. but that wouldn't have served so weel the us interest in middle east.

Quote "Envy"
this is just to funny to be discussed.

Quote "Fear that America is finally recognizing that its influence and power are capable of changing the world"
I don't fear it , i know and i've seen how america has shaped the world to the worst and to their unique advantage, not to the one of the peoples of each country they invaded.

I'll stop ther i could write down so many shocking facts that u don't even know because they are not even related by your self-censored stalinian-medias. Go abroad, son and watch by yourself through the lies of you're governement.
And i never said France was clean, so don't say "Oh he's french, that is why, he hates us", i could be as virulent against my own governement".

Peace out American People!

Preebles

06-03-2005, 13:34

Huh? Source for this please. I've never heard that the US made any comittment to give a percentage of its GDP to the UN!
_________ It was actually at the Earth Summit.

"When the world's governments met at the Earth summit in Rio de Janeiro in 1992, they adopted a programme for action under the auspices of the United Nations — Agenda 21. Amongst other things, this included an Official Development Assistance (ODA) aid target of 0.7% of gross national product (GNP) for rich nations, roughly 22 members of the OECD, known as the Development Assistance Committee (DAC).

Even though these targets and agendas have been set, in the past decade and more almost all rich nations have constantly failed to reach their agreed obligations of the 0.7% target. Instead of 0.7%, the amount of aid has been around 0.2 to 0.25%, some $100 billion short."

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

Edit: The article also said that the American people as private individuals far outstrip the government's donations. It's great that the people are generous, but my beef is with the fact that the government, along with most other developed countries, made a commitment and are failing to keep it.

Pyromanstahn

06-03-2005, 13:51

I realize that many of the rabid anti-Americans on here are going to post enlightening things like: "'Cause Americans are stupid!" or "'Cause you keep attacking other countries!" or "'Cause American soldiers are all trigger-happy!" or similar strangeness. But I, for one, have been pondering just why so many of the posters on here truly seem to hate America and Americans.

Here are some of the reasons I believe there are so many on here who post knee-jerk anti-Americanism:

1. We make a good target. Anyone on top in any field of endeavour is automatically highly visible. Attacking them is easy and fun for those with lesser achievements.

2. Differing opinions on the response to 9/11. 9/11 was a wake-up call for America. It was seen as an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked. Traditionally, America is quick to respond to this sort of thing ( see Pearl Harbor ). Many who post on here apparently agree with the position presented to me by a foreign national almost immediately after 9/11: "Just forget it and move on." This is not the way America responds to attacks on its civilians on its own soil.

3. Envy. Many of the anti_american posters on here are from nations which have been superpowers in the past: Germany, France, Russia, even Great Britain. There is a degree of envy at the impact America and American actions have on their own countries at this point in time, witness the so-called "cultural imperialism" allegations. This is most often used by Germans ( who tried their damndest to conquer the entire world! ), and French ( who managed to reach Moscow before the weather decimated them ). Which is worse, taking over another country by force, or taking over a portion of another country's culture by offering good products and services at a reasonable price?

4. Resentment at having America presume to advocate a better form of government ( democracy ) for people who have been unable to attain it for themselves.

5. Fear that America is finally recognizing that its influence and power are capable of changing the world. I've noted that some on here who claim that America is trying to establish an empire seem to fear that, now that America is hitting her stride, their own country will be somehow "taken over." This despite the fact that America has never kept territory from any of the nations she defeated, other than a few small islands for naval and airforce bases, which were used to defend other nations.

Another poster ( The Alma Mater ) referred me to an article about the current differences between how Americans view the world and how Europeans view the world. I highly recommend it, since it goes a long way toward explaining these differing world views: http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html

These are some of the reasons I see for anti-Americansim. This thread is not suppose to be flame-bait, but rather just the perspective of one American on this issue. Please at least try to present your arguments in a calm, logical, reasoned manner, rather than simply saying something along the lines of "America sucks!"

Reason 1 is the only one where I think you are being completly accurate.

For Reason 2, differening opinions is basically the only reason anyone ever attacks anyone else, it's just a quite sedate way of phrasing it.

Reason 3 is, I'm afraid, total BS. There are plently of people in countries that were superpowers in the past that also hate people from their country who are nostalgic about the past and want their country to be a superpower again.

Reason 4 is accurate apart from the first word. People do not resent America's presumtion, otherwise that would mean they wanted to be presumtious themselves. People dislike America's presumtion.

Reason 5 is the opposite, only the first word is accurate. Fear. That's a good word. People are afraid that America is going to nuke the world / poison the world with carbon dioxide / irradicate all culture apart from American culture.

Hogsweat

06-03-2005, 13:58

I'd be interested in learning more about your opposition to democracy.
Sure. We can talk on YIM if you want.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 14:18

People are afraid that America is going to nuke the world / poison the world with carbon dioxide / irradicate all culture apart from American culture.
Who are these "people?" Their paranoia is exceeded only by their total failure to understand America!

Hogsweat

06-03-2005, 14:28

Also noting the total failure for a great deal of Americans to not understand anything but MTV Culture...

CanuckHeaven

06-03-2005, 14:32

The original post was never intended to be, nor was it anything more than exactly what I stated it to be: one man's opinion on the reasons for so many posts by the anti-American crowd on here. Thusly it is not "flamebait."
You cannot be serious? Your original post would fall into the category of flamebait, and I have addressed that in post # 307:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8366519&postcount=307

I would be interested in your response.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 14:32

Also noting the total failure for a great deal of Americans to not understand anything but MTV Culture...
One of the costs of individual freedom is that people will often do things that are, objectively speaking, bad for them. :)

Demented Hamsters

06-03-2005, 14:33

2. Differing opinions on the response to 9/11. 9/11 was a wake-up call for America. It was seen as an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked. Traditionally, America is quick to respond to this sort of thing ( see Pearl Harbor ). Many who post on here apparently agree with the position presented to me by a foreign national almost immediately after 9/11: "Just forget it and move on." This is not the way America responds to attacks on its civilians on its own soil.
Yet, you can't quite understand why others may feel resentment towards the USA (and it's the USA, not America btw) does that to other countries.
Oh, the irony.

3. Envy.
4. Resentment at having America presume to advocate a better form of government ( democracy ) for people who have been unable to attain it for themselves.
You know, maybe, just maybe if you didn't have such a presumptious arrogance that immediately views any criticism as sour grapes, there might in fact be less criticism. Ever thought of that?

5. Fear that America is finally recognizing that its influence and power are capable of changing the world.
Maybe it's a justifiable fear, considering the damage done to the World by every other powerful empire throughout history, and the rest of the World is just expressing it's relunctance to see yet another empire dominate and erradicate other cultures. Also, considering how insular the USA is (and arrogant, as your post shows remarkably well), perhaps the rest of the World
doesn't think the USA has the maturity to effectively change the World for the better. Only for the better for the USA.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 14:37

You cannot be serious? Your original post would fall into the category of flamebait, and I have addressed that in post # 307:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8366519&postcount=307

I would be interested in your response.
Of course I'm serious. Why is that so difficult a concept for you to grasp?

As I have repeatedly stated, and as most of those posting to this thread will aver, I was simply stating my own opinions on this subject. If you have a serious problem with this, may I humbly suggest that you report me to the Mods? Isn't that what those who think a particular thread or post is "flamebait" are expected to do?

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 14:41

... it's the USA, not America btw
You presume to lecture me on the name of my own Country, a place in which I was born and have lived for over 61 years now, and then have the unmitigated gall to accuse me of being arrogant? :rolleyes:

Sskiss

06-03-2005, 14:52

One of the costs of individual freedom is that people will often do things that are, objectively speaking, bad for them. :)

True freedom is not "doing what you want" even if it is bad for you. True freedom is balanced by responsibility and intelligent and wise forthought and decision making. Your view of freedom is in essence slavery....

"Having what you want, when I want it" is a childs view of freedom!

Other countries are afraid (and rightly so) that there own cultures (that are often far older) are being "swamped" and "engolfed" by an amorphous culture blob called the US of A. They are frightened by loosing their cultural idendity and heritage! I once heard awhile ago that they (Mc Donalds) were planning to build a Mc Donalds "restaurent" near the ancient Egytain pyramids and other such monuments like the Sphinx.

Needless to say, I was appalled at this travesty. Have these "people" (and I use the term loosely here) have any sort of respect and dignity for such an ancient culture!!? It's a stain! A piece of excrament that does not belong there! It's repulsive and for that matter, I hate Mc Donalds!

The Emperor Fenix

06-03-2005, 14:58

You presume to lecture me on the name of my own Country, a place in which I was born and have lived for over 61 years now, and then have the unmitigated gall to accuse me of being arrogant? :rolleyes:
Yes.

There's a difference between opinion and fact.

[NS]Ein Deutscher

06-03-2005, 14:58

Needless to say, I was appalled at this travesty. Have these "people" (and I use the term loosely here) have any sort of respect and dignity for such an ancient culture!!? It's a stain! A piece of excrament that does not belong there! It's repulsive and for that matter, I hate Mc Donalds!
I'm sure a Mc Donald's in the White House would be nice aswell. Or how about we transform the Pentagon into a Disneyworld Resort? Or how about flattening Yellowstone and making it a big parking lot? Americans have no respect before other (far older) cultures than their own. For them, everything they have in their own country, is the mana of god given to mankind and it needs to be spread, regardless of what the rest of the planet thinks about this.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 15:00

True freedom is not "doing what you want" even if it is bad for you. True freedom is balanced by responsibility and intelligent and wise forthought and decision making. Your view of freedom is in essence slavery....

"Having what you want, when I want it" is a childs view of freedom!

Other countries are afraid (and rightly so) that there own cultures (that are often far older) are being "swamped" and "engolfed" by an amorphous culture blob called the US of A. They are frightened by loosing their cultural idendity and heritage! I once heard awhile ago that they (Mc Donalds) were planning to build a Mc Donalds "restaurent" near the ancient Egytain pyramids and other such monuments like the Sphinx.

Needless to say, I was appalled at this travesty. Have these "people" (and I use the term loosely here) have any sort of respect and dignity for such an ancient culture!!? It's a stain! A piece of excrament that does not belong there! It's repulsive and for that matter, I hate Mc Donalds!
I hate McDonald's too ... their food sucks! But if people don't want a McDonald's near where they live or near something they consider to be sacrosanct, they are free to protest and have it prevented.

"Freedom is slavery." Hmmm. Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, George Orwell's dystopia, "1984."

And since when did the age of anything matter? By your standards, you should be avidly digesting every word I say! :D

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 15:04

Yes.

There's a difference between opinion and fact.
Where did "opinion and fact" enter into this? The full name of my Country is The United States of America, "America" for short. That's its name. That's what we call it. If you have a problem with that, petition Congress to pass a law.

Sskiss

06-03-2005, 15:08

Ein Deutscher']I'm sure a Mc Donald's in the White House would be nice aswell. Or how about we transform the Pentagon into a Disneyworld Resort? Or how about flattening Yellowstone and making it a big parking lot? Americans have no respect before other (far older) cultures than their own. For them, everything they have in their own country, is the mana of god given to mankind and it needs to be spread, regardless of what the rest of the planet thinks about this.

A few years ago, I went to the Prague and say (yeah, you guessed it!) a Mc Donalds near an old cathedral that's been their for something like five centuries. It was discusting! Like a cancer, a filth.... I heard some good news that it was remeoved however, but I'm not sure if it's true or not. I sure hope it is.

Btw, I've long sinse boycotted all so called "fast food" places at the age of 15. I'm 42 now, and look very young for my age. Maybe because I chose to eat real food instead of garbage!

They should outlaw these places and thier so called "products"! They weaken the will and bodies of the people and poison them for profits. It's the same old BS crap that's been going on for awhile no.

Your best weapon against this filth is awarness. Awarness bring knowledge.... and knowledge bring the ability to make wise choices regarding your own life.

Coldrisk

06-03-2005, 15:08

Hate doesn't always have to have a reason(s).

[NS]Ein Deutscher

06-03-2005, 15:09

I hate McDonald's too ... their food sucks! But if people don't want a McDonald's near where they live or near something they consider to be sacrosanct, they are free to protest and have it prevented.

"Freedom is slavery." Hmmm. Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, George Orwell's dystopia, "1984."

And since when did the age of anything matter? By your standards, you should be avidly digesting every word I say! :D
Age of cultures means a lot (i.e. China, Egypt, most Arab nations, most European nations, etc.) have very old traditions and cultures. We are proud of our own cultures and our "lifestyles" and what our ancestors achieved. The U.S. has barely 200 years of culture to look back on. It's the youngster among the nations and it acts like a spoiled child all the time. If the US were a human child, it's parents would never get out of spanking it :p

In humans, age can also mean intelligence, experience and wise decisions. It can however also mean, demenzia, bad hearing, back pain, etc. As such, one has to distinguish between the good aged people and the bad aged people. Some aged people think they know everything better, while they are stuck somewhere in the past.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 15:10

Hate doesn't always have to have a reason(s).
This is, sadly, very true. :(

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 15:13

Ein Deutscher']Age of cultures means a lot (i.e. China, Egypt, most Arab nations, most European nations, etc.) have very old traditions and cultures. We are proud of our own cultures and our "lifestyles" and what our ancestors achieved. The U.S. has barely 200 years of culture to look back on. It's the youngster among the nations and it acts like a spoiled child all the time. If the US were a human child, it's parents would never get out of spanking it :p

In humans, age can also mean intelligence, experience and wise decisions. It can however also mean, demenzia, bad hearing, back pain, etc. As such, one has to distinguish between the good aged people and the bad aged people. Some aged people think they know everything better, while they are stuck somewhere in the past.
And of course, your last line obviously applies to me, since I don't agree with you. :rolleyes:

Sskiss

06-03-2005, 15:15

I hate McDonald's too ... their food sucks! But if people don't want a McDonald's near where they live or near something they consider to be sacrosanct, they are free to protest and have it prevented.

Glad you think so. I don't even consider it food!

"Freedom is slavery." Hmmm. Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, George Orwell's dystopia, "1984."

Their version of freedom is yes. For you see, it's not freedom at all! It's the "illusion of freedom"....a false freedom.

"And since when did the age of anything matter? By your standards, you should be avidly digesting every word I say! :D

As I say, "you'd have to be there" and see it all for yourself. For me the age of a culture or civilization does matter. It's a matter of respect. You might say it's like repecting that which came before you.

Portu Cale

06-03-2005, 15:16

I say Europe should build an army, kick the USA out, treat them like dirt or annoying childreen, being patronizing, then start invading countries left and right. Oh, and lobbying to put a dictator in Canada (sorry Canadians! :P )

That way, they will understand why we don't like their foreign policy.

PS: Hey, it will take time, but research on what the European Battle Groups are. Way to go Americans, we are starting to arm ourselves. If you had just held your horses a bit, both our nations could have had the best of two worlds (This is basically a reply to the link Eutrusca posted in his first post)

Pyromanstahn

06-03-2005, 15:17

Who are these "people?" Their paranoia is exceeded only by their total failure to understand America!

You said that many people were afraid of America changing the world. I am referring to these same people, I am just saying they are afraid of something slightly different to what you say they are.

Hogsweat

06-03-2005, 15:20

[NS]Ein Deutscher

06-03-2005, 15:21

And of course, your last line obviously applies to me, since I don't agree with you. :rolleyes:
Nope, it was a general statement. I don't know you, but it might apply to you. I'll be able to tell you later, if I read some more from you :cool:

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 15:24

You said that many people were afraid of America changing the world. I am referring to these same people, I am just saying they are afraid of something slightly different to what you say they are.
"Fear" is the emotion which arrises when you think something you're not going to like is about to happen, yet realize there's not a damned thing you can do to prevent it.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 15:26

Ein Deutscher']Nope, it was a general statement. I don't know you, but it might apply to you. I'll be able to tell you later, if I read some more from you :cool:
Well, at least you're fairer than some on here! :D

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 15:28

On a side note, should America invade Europe it would get it's arse kicked.
Please don't do that. :(

The Purple Major

06-03-2005, 15:31

I'm just reminded of a quote from an old SF book I read many Years ago (by Lloyd Biggle JR)

"Democracy imposed from the outside is the worse form of tyrrany"

Pyromanstahn

06-03-2005, 15:38

"Fear" is the emotion which arrises when you think something you're not going to like is about to happen, yet realize there's not a damned thing you can do to prevent it.

Yes, but you're saying people are afraid that America is going to make the world a better place and weaken other countries, whereas I'm saying people are afraid America is going to destroy the world. I don't need you to tell me what fear is.

Dontgonearthere

06-03-2005, 15:40

I find several things in this topic higly amusing:
1. The number of people with less than a hundred posts who are saying anything from 'America is a base for fundamental Christians' (Wrong on SO many levels), to 'Your wrong because your stupid.' (Not the exact words, but the gist of the 'arguement'),
2. The people on both sides who resort to attacking the POSTER or their country in general rather than the arguements. (EX: The sergeant comment at the begining (Although sergeants arent officers, as TBI said), the religion stuff that pops up now and then).
3. The wonderful typos which people automaticaly attack on sight it seems.
4. The fact that people on both sides simply WILL NOT change the least little facet of their world opinion. Country A sucks, Country B sucks, Country C is automaticaly superior and its citizens have the right to bash all the others without fear of reprisal for their arrogance.
Oops. That slipped.
5. I lost number five, but I like to have five reasons, so heres number five. Nice, isnt it?

CanuckHeaven

06-03-2005, 15:44

Of course I'm serious. Why is that so difficult a concept for you to grasp?

As I have repeatedly stated, and as most of those posting to this thread will aver, I was simply stating my own opinions on this subject. If you have a serious problem with this, may I humbly suggest that you report me to the Mods? Isn't that what those who think a particular thread or post is "flamebait" are expected to do?
If you were truly serious and genuine, then you would not have opened your post with these words:

I realize that many of the rabid anti-Americans on here are going to post enlightening things like: "'Cause Americans are stupid!" or "'Cause you keep attacking other countries!" or "'Cause American soldiers are all trigger-happy!" or similar strangeness. But I, for one, have been pondering just why so many of the posters on here truly seem to hate America and Americans.

Here are some of the reasons I believe thre are so many on here who post knee-jerk anti-Americanism:

Oh I fully "grasp" the "concept", and I suggest to you that your post was designed to illicit an angry response due to your choice of the words in red above, that are condescending in nature, as was this reply to me.

Since you were "pondering" why you think so many posters "hate" America/Americans, you can read my reply here:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8366519&postcount=307

Constantinopolis

06-03-2005, 15:46

Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return.
Well, that and California, Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah...

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 15:57

Well, that and California, Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah...
Oh, and your country in its infancy never took land claimed by others? Right.

BTW ... there were no Spanish or Mexican settlements in Utah when the US annexed it. ( http://historytogo.utah.gov/mexicanwar.html )

Quagarrs

06-03-2005, 16:04

Vangaardia

06-03-2005, 16:05

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 16:11

1. not been so stupid as to allow the bin ladin family to leave after september 11 then this whole lits find the terror and destroy it might no be so bad.
2. if it had not wanted the oil in iraq then there would have been no war no loss of lives of both american and british troopsand.
3. and if america stopped looking for troble in the 1st place the we would all be living in a safer world and no accusing every muslim of being a terroist.

and i'm not an america hater i live in scotland i have have american family and friends and i hope to live there in the near future i love america and its people but not the stupid people who run it just now.
1. That was Osama ben Laden's FATHER's family, not his own! What would you have had us do, hold his father's family hostage? :(

2. For the thousandth time ... Iraq isn't about oil! We have more than enough from within the US to sustain the entire Country for many, many years.

3. So we were "looking for trouble" when we were attacked on 9/11? What universe do you live in???

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 16:21

Eutrusca,Here is an article that I think sums up the totality of your questions.I am American born but I do not like the foreign policy of our country. I am appalled at killing innocents for the crimes of an individual. It makes no logical sense at all and cannot be rationalized. I do not hate America there is good here also but they are not the worlds police force and that is putting it very very nicely. I would define the actions in Iraq as tyranical but that is my definition. Here is the article it is quite revealing and truthful.

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/American/moral.html
That article originally appeared as an unsigned article on Media Monitors Network, which is an anti-Israel organization. A search for Muhammad Ali Khan (Chief Editor & Founder MMN) yields only one match http://www.alikhan.org/urdu/ali_khan.htm.

Until I can find more information about this source, I am reluctant to grant it credibility.

Sskiss

06-03-2005, 16:21

2. For the thousandth time ... Iraq isn't about oil! We have more than enough from within the US to sustain the entire Country for many, many years.

All wars are in the end fought for resources of one sort or another. And even if the US has enough oil, so what of it? Gaining that extra oil would prevent others from having it, which of course means more power for you, and less for your enemies (or potential enemies). In short, you can never have enough! Do you honestly think the people that run the oil industry care whether they have enough oil! Surely you can't think that! As far as there concerned - they never have enough! It's a business damn it!

Nikoko

06-03-2005, 16:23

2. For the thousandth time ... Iraq isn't about oil! We have more than enough from within the US to sustain the entire Country for many, many years.

Actually that's a common misconception, even conservative estimates put our world's oil supply reserves at FORTY YEARS. Yes, that's right, FORTY YEARS untill the oil economy completely collapses on it's ass.

http://dieoff.org/page90.htm
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/10/02/global.warming/
http://media.socialchange.net.au/people/les/oil.html
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/OilRunningOut.php
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
http://www.enviroliteracy.org/subcategory.php/252.html
http://www.frbatlanta.org/invoke.cfm?objectid=AB4F965E-E58D-4568-BCA4889D6E63C374&method=display
http://www.hubbertpeak.com/

The only websites easily found not in support of this:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/bg/bg159/
http://dieoff.org/page153.htm

Which is why even the conservative republicans are working on alternative energy initatives. You think we would risk pissing off the oil barons that support our candidates if we didn't have to? HAHA.

Sskiss

06-03-2005, 16:24

That article originally appeared as an unsigned article on Media Monitors Network, which is an anti-Israel organization. A search for Muhammad Ali Khan (Chief Editor & Founder MMN) yields only one match http://www.alikhan.org/urdu/ali_khan.htm.

Until I can find more information about this source, I am reluctant to grant it credibility.

Really! But what the artical says is basically true. The US has basically been screwing over other countries (militaraly and economically) for about a hundred years or so.

Pyromanstahn

06-03-2005, 16:26

4. The fact that people on both sides simply WILL NOT change the least little facet of their world opinion. Country A sucks, Country B sucks, Country C is automaticaly superior and its citizens have the right to bash all the others without fear of reprisal for their arrogance.

Just curious, was this particular comment suggesting that everyone's world opinions are like that or was it directed at only certain people? I think when people take a complex viewpoint of countries rather than just 'that country sucks', then facets of their world opinion can change.

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 16:29

Actually that's a common misconception, even conservative estimates put our world's oil supply reserves at FORTY YEARS. Yes, that's right, FORTY YEARS untill the oil economy completely collapses on it's ass.

http://dieoff.org/page90.htm
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/10/02/global.warming/
http://media.socialchange.net.au/people/les/oil.html
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/OilRunningOut.php
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
http://www.enviroliteracy.org/subcategory.php/252.html
http://www.frbatlanta.org/invoke.cfm?objectid=AB4F965E-E58D-4568-BCA4889D6E63C374&method=display
http://www.hubbertpeak.com/

The only websites easily found not in support of this:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/bg/bg159/
http://dieoff.org/page153.htm

Which is why even the conservative republicans are working on alternative energy initatives. You think we would risk pissing off the oil barons that support our candidates if we didn't have to? HAHA.

I believe Oils demise has been greatly exaggerated...

http://kantor.com/useful/thermo.shtml

Thermodepolymerization -- or "thermal depolymerization" -- is a process that converts stuff into oil. And by "stuff" I mean just about anything: garbage, medical waste, animals and animal parts (e.g., cows with mad-cow disease, or offal from chickens that have been made into McNuggets), used computer parts, tires, and so on, seemingly ad infinitum.

This is not just a theoretical process. It is real, out-of-the-lab stuff happening on an industrial scale. It's being done by ConAgra Foods in Carthage, Missouri -- at one of the company's Butterball Turkey plants, where up to 200 tons of turkeys are being turned into oil every day.

Once more: This is real stuff. Garbage is being turned into oil by a process that's safe, clean, and in use today.

Essentially, thermal depolymerization or TDP mimics a process the earth itself uses to 'process' what gets buried and break it down. Over millions of years, heat and pressure break the bonds that hold these waste products together. TDP accelerates the process. The leading company doing TDP is Changing World Technologies of West Hempstead, N.Y.

Vangaardia

06-03-2005, 16:32

Here is another source of information about the wars and encounters of the USA since its beginings.

http://americanpeace.eccmei.net/

I must say though it is quite a safety net to dismiss sources as non-credible without checking the content. If you disagree with something just chalk it up as not credible. I think the content should be searched not the writer that is quite illogical.

Eastern Coast America

06-03-2005, 16:35

I agree with alot of what you say. We also like poking our noses in everything, which is another reason why nobody likes americans.

However, we did attempt to kill Osama...many times before 9-11, which is why he's like, really pissed.

He's probably ordering goatcheese express, and got pissed because he never got his goatcheese due to a bomb.

Nikoko

06-03-2005, 16:36

Pyromanstahn

06-03-2005, 16:37

I believe Oils demise has been greatly exaggerated...

http://kantor.com/useful/thermo.shtml

Thermodepolymerization -- or "thermal depolymerization" -- is a process that converts stuff into oil. And by "stuff" I mean just about anything: garbage, medical waste, animals and animal parts (e.g., cows with mad-cow disease, or offal from chickens that have been made into McNuggets), used computer parts, tires, and so on, seemingly ad infinitum.

This is not just a theoretical process. It is real, out-of-the-lab stuff happening on an industrial scale. It's being done by ConAgra Foods in Carthage, Missouri -- at one of the company's Butterball Turkey plants, where up to 200 tons of turkeys are being turned into oil every day.

Once more: This is real stuff. Garbage is being turned into oil by a process that's safe, clean, and in use today.

Essentially, thermal depolymerization or TDP mimics a process the earth itself uses to 'process' what gets buried and break it down. Over millions of years, heat and pressure break the bonds that hold these waste products together. TDP accelerates the process. The leading company doing TDP is Changing World Technologies of West Hempstead, N.Y.

The link you provide is taken from the site of a single individual. Can you provide a link to an official research group that supports TDP? If it's so great surely it must have attracted attention from a lot of scientists.

Firefallusia

06-03-2005, 16:42

Now, what was it that one american sergeant said after they had taken over an airfield in northern Afghanistan...
Oh yeah, something like this: "Now we've landed and taken over a piece of Afghanistan."...
And don't start telling me he's the only officer acting like that.
And no, I'm no from any of those countries you mentioned. I'm finnish and our country's always been too small to become a superpower (not becouse of the lack of trying...)

What you may or may not understand is that in military tactics, the goal is to take over a section in order to direct operations from it. No one believes that Afghanistan is now an American landmark or property. It is only a place from which to stage operations which are aimed at freeing the Afghan people. Having spent a summer in Finland, I know that your countrymen's ambitions outweigh the abilities in many areas. FWIW, sergeants are not considered "officers" as they are not commissioned. The American military goes to fight battles because there are many who cannot fight for themselves. but then there are other countries that are too timid or haven't the cojones to stand up for what is right.

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 16:47

The link you provide is taken from the site of a single individual. Can you provide a link to an official research group that supports TDP? If it's so great surely it must have attracted attention from a lot of scientists.

http://kantor.com/useful/oil.pdf

http://www.age.uiuc.edu/bee/RESEARCH/tcc/tccpaper3.htm

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=thermal+depolymerization

http://kantor.com/usatoday/thermal_depolymerization.shtml

Follow-Ups

A few people have written to be asking the same (or a similar question) regarding the efficiency of the TDP process.

Specifically: How much energy is used to power it? Does it use more energy to process the animal/medical/industrial waste than it gets back in oil? (If so, that would make TDP a terrific waste-disposal system, but not a good energy producer.)

Jason Preiser was the first to question this. He wrote:

The key fact you fail to mention in your article for USAToday is that creating one barrel of oil from TPD requires 1.15 barrels of oil! The idea that it will somehow enable us to 'get off foreign oil' is completely fallacious.
The way I read it, 85% efficiency means that for every 100 BTUs I put in (to convert the waste), I recover 85 BTUs worth of energy.
This turns out not to be the case. According to the company, about 15 percent of the fuel that comes out of a TDP plant is used to power the plant itself -- the other 85 percent is new energy. So if a TDP plant generated 100,000 BTUs worth of oil, it would only use about 15,000 BTUs to power the process.

According to Changing Worlds' Terry Adams:

15 Btu's from the original 100 Btu's is used in the process. The other 85 Btu's becomes fuel. Think of a box with 100 Btu's of turkey offal coming in and 100 Btu's of fuel coming out. After the fuel comes out, 15% of it is put back into the process. These Btu's eventually leave as heat. The other 85% is sold as product. Total in = 100 Btu's. Total product out = 85 Btu's. 15 Btu's used in the process.
(For you purists, he does point out that "Turkey offal is not really a good fuel so the '100 Btu's in' is only a theoretical value.")

He also wrote:

Another way of looking at this is that 85 BTU's of fuel is generated for each 15 BTU's used in the TCP process, a ratio of 5.7 units of fuel for each unit of energy consumed by the process...not a bad payback!

A couple of people also questioned TDPs efficiency in terms of the laws of physics -- you know, energy cannot be created or destroyed. One was Mark Ellison who wrote, "It takes energy to turn garbage into oil using TDP, and, of course, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that the energy content of the oil so obtained will be less than the energy used to create it."

Create, yes. But the energy in, say, turkey offal is created when the animals eat and drink. It's stored in their bodies. The energy content of the oil obtained through TDP is less than or equal to the energy used to to create it (e.g., turkey food and water), but greater than the energy used to extract it. That's what makes it an exciting energy source.

The bottom line: TDP produces more energy from the garbage that's thrown into the 'hopper' than is used to power the process.

Bunnyducks

06-03-2005, 16:48

Having spent a summer in Finland, I know that your countrymen's ambitions outweigh the abilities in many areas.
Feel free to elaborate. Unlike in some countries, we here welcome criticism. It's the only way we can hope to make our society better.

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 16:55

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2004-01-22-kantor_x.htm

And this is not just a theoretical process. It ain't cold fusion. TDP is real, out-of-the-lab stuff. It's happening on an industrial scale, today. At the ConAgra Foods facility in Carthage, Missouri, hundreds of tons of turkey waste from the company's Butterball plant are being turned into oil every day — enough oil to generate 11-12 megawatts of power, according to Changing World's chairman and CEO, Brian Appel.

The City of Philadelphia currently turns a lot of its sewage sludge into landfill. (All together now: Eww.) But working with Changing World, the city is planning a TDP project to divert that sludge — and whatever pathogens are living in it — away from the land and into oil. Local power companies can then turn the oil into electricity. Win, win, win.

At first, it was the oil angle that was TDP's selling point. In case you hadn't noticed, we get a lot of ours from countries that don't like us very much. Then they give our money to people who use it to kill us. So TDP was being touted as a way to reduce our imports. In fact, get this: According to Appel, there are more than 12 billion tons of agricultural waste generated every year in the U.S. (And that's undoubtedly a low number; it's based on 1988 figures.) Were it all to be put through the TDP process it would turn into more than four billion barrels of light crude oil.

Pyromanstahn

06-03-2005, 16:58

http://kantor.com/useful/oil.pdf

http://www.age.uiuc.edu/bee/RESEARCH/tcc/tccpaper3.htm

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=thermal+depolymerization

http://kantor.com/usatoday/thermal_depolymerization.shtml

Sorry, you didn't quite understand me. I don't exactly understand all the technicalities of this TDP, I wanted to know whether there were many scientists who believed it was a viable option, as anything that stood a good chance of being able to efficiently manufacture oil would be one of the greatest discoveries of the last few decades. From examining your links it seems there are actually very few people looking into this other than Yuanhui Zhang, Gerald Riskowski, Ted Funk and of course Andrew Kantor whose website you have now used 3 times. I just wondered if there are many people looking into this.

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 17:00

Please stop hijacking my thread! ;)

Urantia II

06-03-2005, 17:08

Sorry, you didn't quite understand me. I don't exactly understand all the technicalities of this TDP, I wanted to know whether there were many scientists who believed it was a viable option, as anything that stood a good chance of being able to efficiently manufacture oil would be one of the greatest discoveries of the last few decades. From examining your links it seems there are actually very few people looking into this other than Yuanhui Zhang, Gerald Riskowski, Ted Funk and of course Andrew Kantor whose website you have now used 3 times. I just wondered if there are many people looking into this.

Looking into it?

It is ALREADY being USED on an Industrial Scale.

Let’s move this to here, so we aren't "hyjacking" someone elses thread...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=402871

Sorry for the intrusion.

Regards,
Gaar

Dontgonearthere

06-03-2005, 17:30

Just curious, was this particular comment suggesting that everyone's world opinions are like that or was it directed at only certain people? I think when people take a complex viewpoint of countries rather than just 'that country sucks', then facets of their world opinion can change.
It was directed at certain people, who know who they are but wont admit it even if the fate of the world depends upon it :P

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 17:38

If you were truly serious and genuine, then you would not have opened your post with these words:

I realize that many of the rabid anti-Americans on here are going to post enlightening things like: "'Cause Americans are stupid!" or "'Cause you keep attacking other countries!" or "'Cause American soldiers are all trigger-happy!" or similar strangeness. But I, for one, have been pondering just why so many of the posters on here truly seem to hate America and Americans.

Here are some of the reasons I believe thre are so many on here who post knee-jerk anti-Americanism:

Oh I fully "grasp" the "concept", and I suggest to you that your post was designed to illicit an angry response due to your choice of the words in red above, that are condescending in nature, as was this reply to me.

Since you were "pondering" why you think so many posters "hate" America/Americans, you can read my reply here:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8366519&postcount=307
As we are wont to say here in the Southern US, "If the shoe don't fit, don't put dat sucka on!" :)

The Black Forrest

06-03-2005, 19:36

Ein Deutscher']Americans have no respect before other (far older) cultures than their own. For them, everything they have in their own country, is the mana of god given to mankind and it needs to be spread, regardless of what the rest of the planet thinks about this.

Ahh if it was only that simple. We have that same reasoning here as well. You know drug abuse wouldn't happen if it weren't for the drug pushers!

Sorry but there are three parts to history getting destroyed. The evil corporation and the goverment type that said "Hey I will give you a permit."

Let's not forget the people are to be blamed as well. If you people "that knew better" didn't give the corporations business, then they wouldn't set up there. The fact they can make money is why they do that. Sure the corporation is to blame but so are the people.

Many Americans don't respect history. Hell many barely know it. But to say that we are all that only suggests you are ignorant. Which I doubt you are.

We have the fights here as well. Big business wants to set up in our national parks. And even our own cultures are under attack as small town america gets the chain stores which change the classic look of the small town. There were two reporters that once did a tour of the US and wrote road stories. Years latter they did it again and said there was a growing bland look as each town started to look more the same as the chain stores set up everywhere.

We even have fights about housing now. The Victorians were getting destroyed for "newer better" houses. People started getting them declared as historical landmarks. Builders fight that as it goes against buisness interests.

It never ends :rolleyes:

Carnivorous Lickers

06-03-2005, 19:59

On a side note, should America invade Europe it would get it's arse kicked.

Silly tool. The United States Postal workers are better armed and more dangerous than Europe.

Manawskistan

06-03-2005, 20:11

I believe there is no such thing as clean and safe when dealing with Oil, sure, we will always need it in our plastics manufacturing, etc, but why should our transportation systems rely on it so readily?

No amount of proccessing will replace our natural oil extraction industry.

Why not just switch now to a hydrogen (most ABUNDANT resource in the UNIVERSE) based economy?
I'm going to say this as smoothly as possible.
You don't know the first thing about physics.

BIG BIG Problem with a Hydrogen based economy there, Chief. Hydrogen is indeed the most abundent resource in the Universe. BUT..... There's hardly any on Earth. Hydrogen tends to get this thing called "escape velocity" and then it's headed to some other place that isn't Earth. Like... the rest of the Universe. At this point in time (Well, technically at ANY point in time, if you know the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy), it is more costly in terms of energy to produce hydrogen than what energy is returned by its use. In theory we could use Solar Radiation or some such to bridge the gap between the hydrogen energy consumption and production, but Solar power is so inefficient at this point, it's frankly a lost cause.

I like big buts and I cannot lie.

Cressland

06-03-2005, 20:23

*applauds*

I hate the "America Sucks" crowd.

I especially agree with point number three. "Forget it and move on" is not, never has been, and will never be option for September 11th. It was a big deal, and those who lost their lives would never want it to be forgotten.

However, I don't mind honest American criticism when its well supported and founded. I am by no means a supporter of the current administration, but I still don't want to hear "Bush is an idiot and Americans are idots and you guys need to mind your own business." Give me some rational, well thought out reasons why you dislike America/Americans.

don't you think, though, that by making a bid deal out of it continuously [although it is massive], you are just giving the bastards who did it what they want?!!?

Eutrusca

06-03-2005, 21:24

don't you think, though, that by making a bid deal out of it continuously [although it is massive], you are just giving the bastards who did it what they want?!!?
How so???

Progress and Evolution

06-03-2005, 21:51

I realize that many of the rabid anti-Americans on here are going to post enlightening things like: "'Cause Americans are stupid!" or "'Cause you keep attacking other countries!" or "'Cause American soldiers are all trigger-happy!" or similar strangeness. But I, for one, have been pondering just why so many of the posters on here truly seem to hate America and Americans.

Here are some of the reasons I believe there are so many on here who post knee-jerk anti-Americanism:

1. We make a good target. Anyone on top in any field of endeavour is automatically highly visible. Attacking them is easy and fun for those with lesser achievements.

2. Differing opinions on the response to 9/11. 9/11 was a wake-up call for America. It was seen as an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked. Traditionally, America is quick to respond to this sort of thing ( see Pearl Harbor ). Many who post on here apparently agree with the position presented to me by a foreign national almost immediately after 9/11: "Just forget it and move on." This is not the way America responds to attacks on its civilians on its own soil.

3. Envy. Many of the anti_american posters on here are from nations which have been superpowers in the past: Germany, France, Russia, even Great Britain. There is a degree of envy at the impact America and American actions have on their own countries at this point in time, witness the so-called "cultural imperialism" allegations. This is most often used by Germans ( who tried their damndest to conquer the entire world! ), and French ( who managed to reach Moscow before the weather decimated them ). Which is worse, taking over another country by force, or taking over a portion of another country's culture by offering good products and services at a reasonable price?

4. Resentment at having America presume to advocate a better form of government ( democracy ) for people who have been unable to attain it for themselves.

5. Fear that America is finally recognizing that its influence and power are capable of changing the world. I've noted that some on here who claim that America is trying to establish an empire seem to fear that, now that America is hitting her stride, their own country will be somehow "taken over." This despite the fact that America has never kept territory from any of the nations she defeated, other than a few small islands for naval and airforce bases, which were used to defend other nations.

Another poster ( The Alma Mater ) referred me to an article about the current differences between how Americans view the world and how Europeans view the world. I highly recommend it, since it goes a long way toward explaining these differing world views: http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html

These are some of the reasons I see for anti-Americansim. This thread is not suppose to be flame-bait, but rather just the perspective of one American on this issue. Please at least try to present your arguments in a calm, logical, reasoned manner, rather than simply saying something along the lines of "America sucks!"

I think the article you refer to has your answer, or maybe the biggest influence as to why people resent America. The article says:

"The United States...resorts to force more quickly and, compared with Europe, is less patient with diplomacy."

"When confronting real or potential adversaries, Americans generally favor policies of coercion rather than persuasion, emphasizing punitive sanctions over inducements to better behavior, the stick over the carrot."

"are less inclined to act through international institutions such as the United Nations, less inclined to work cooperatively with other nations to pursue common goals, more skeptical about international law, and more willing to operate outside its strictures when they deem it necessary, or even merely useful."

Put it in another way, the US is a like a school bully.

CanuckHeaven

06-03-2005, 22:58

As we are wont to say here in the Southern US, "If the shoe don't fit, don't put dat sucka on!" :)
Well here in Canada, we tend to say, "If the shoe fits, wear it". How do you know if the shoe will fit, or not if you do not try it on at least.

So here is your opportunity to try it on:

Although I was a bit reluctant to get into this thread, my head overruled my heart. Right off the bat, I notice that you take a controversial stance, which could be construed as flamebait. Please note that I am NOT anti-American but I am anti-Bush. Also please note that because I am anti-Bush doesn’t mean that I hate the man because I don’t, dislike immensely would be a better choice of words.

I realize that many of the rabid anti-Americans on here are going to post enlightening things like:
Are you trying to imply that anyone that is anti-American is somehow infected with rabies? Minus 1 point for you.

"'Cause Americans are stupid!" or "'Cause you keep attacking other countries!" or "'Cause American soldiers are all trigger-happy!" or similar strangeness.
So if anyone thinks that the US is attacking too many countries, they are somehow “strange” for their beliefs? Minus 1 more point for you.

But I, for one, have been pondering just why so many of the posters on here truly seem to hate America and Americans.
Here I think that you are clearly over stating the truth. While many posters believe that Bush is bad, not too many actually “hate” your country, or “hate” Americans in general. Since you used the word “many”, were you trying to suggest more than half? If you could point me towards any statistic that may validate your claim, then I will concede that point to you. Zero points for this item at this time.

Now you lay out the premise for this thread:

“I, for one, have been pondering just why so many of the posters on here truly seem to hate America and Americans.”

Now if this were an earnest attempt to truly “understand” the other posters, then I would be inclined to give you a point. However, since you have already challenged the mental capacity of these so called posters who you are trying to “understand”, and put them on the defensive, then I will have to suggest Minus 1 more point for you.

Here are some of the reasons I believe thre are so many on here who post knee-jerk anti-Americanism:
Once again, if anyone posts anything that can be construed as anti-American, then their opinion is “knee-jerk”? Minus 1 more point for you.

Well we aren’t even into the meat and potatoes of your post and by my count, you are down 4 points already.

1. We make a good target. Anyone on top in any field of endeavour is automatically highly visible. Attacking them is easy and fun for those with lesser achievements.
Assuming that you are a “target”, and assuming that you are on top in your field of endeavour, that people with “lesser achievements” want to attack you because it is “easy and fun”'? Please spare me. Minus 1 more point for you.

My personal thoughts on this matter. Remove the perceived “target” off your back and get out of Iraq, as soon as is humanly possible. I believe that this attack against Iraq is an absolute failure and makes the region and the world far more dangerous.

2. Differing opinions on the response to 9/11. 9/11 was a wake-up call for America. It was seen as an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked. Traditionally, America is quick to respond to this sort of thing ( see Peral Harbor ). Many who post on here apparently agree with the position presented to me by a foreign national almost immediately after 9/11: "Just forget it and move on." This is not the way America responds to attacks on its civilians on its own soil.
Many as in most again? I truly believe that most people around the world were in shock when this tragedy occurred and many supported the retaliatory strikes against Afghanistan, my country and myself included. I think you are being less than honest for suggesting otherwise.

I also believe that the invasion of Iraq, was “an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked”. The grandiose “Shock and Awe” campaign that ensued, sickened me. To me, this was no different then the planes that flew into the WTC and Pentagon

3. Envy. Many of the anti_american posters on here are from nations which have been superpowers in the past: Germany, France, Russia, even Great Britain. There is a degree of envy at the impact America and American actions have on their own countries at this point in time, witness the so-called "cultural imperialism" allegations. This is most often used by Germans ( who tried their damndest to conquer the entire world! ), and French ( who managed to reach Moscow before the weather decimated them ). Which is worse, taking over another country by force, or taking over a portion of another country's culture by offering good products and services at a reasonable price?
Do you really think that most people that express anti-American sentiments are envious of your troops dying in the Middle East sandbox? From what I have seen and read, it is the fact that innocent people are dying in an unnecessary war. It is also the fact that many can see an agenda that goes beyond Iraq, into countries such as Iran and North Korea. Many see the possibility of a global conflict that could inadvertently involve the use of nuclear weapons and that this is resulting in a new arms race. To think that it is envy by the other posters speaks to your perceived arrogance. Minus 1 more point for you.

4. Resentment at having America presume to advocate a better form of government ( democracy ) for people who have been unable to attain it for themselves.
Forcing “democracy” on people who have a totally different ideology is arrogant on your part if you believe that is “better” for them. Minus 1 more point for you.

5. Fear that America is finally recognizing that its influence and power are capable of changing the world.
Oh there is fear alright. Fear that the world is a more dangerous place and that US foreign policy could result in a global catastrophe. Proclaiming that the US will use its’ “influence and power” to change the world, without consultation is dictatorial in nature and certainly worthy of being challenged by so called anti-Americans. Since you support this doctrine, Minus 1 more point for you.

I've noted that some on here who claim that America is trying to establish an empire seem to fear that, now that America is hitting her stride, their own country will be somehow "taken over." This despite the fact that America has never kept territory from any of the nations she defeated, other than a few small islands for naval and airforce bases, which were used to defend other nations.
Most imperialistic nations tend to go into other countries, take what they want and when there is nothing left of any significant value, they leave. Now we all know that the US lifeblood is oil, and we also know that the world’s 2nd largest reserves are in Iraq. How convenient is that? And I guess while the US is there, they should build 14 “enduring” military bases (http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040323-enduring-bases.htm). Oh and while you are at it, might as well hijack the Iraqi economy as well through Bremer’s Orders (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/after/2004/0120ambitions.htm).

These are some of the reasons I see for anti-Americansim. This thread is not suppose to be flame-bait, but rather just the perspective of one American on this issue. Please at least try to present your arguments in a calm, logical, reasoned manner, rather than simply saying something along the lines of "America sucks!"
I will agree that some posters are over zealous in their anti-Americanism, but that doesn’t come just from posters outside your country. There are many Americans who totally oppose the direction that America is taking, so even your initial premise is wrong. I do care about America and I do care about this world and if you think this is a “knee-jerk” post than that would be your problem and not mine.

You tend to side with the Bush government right or wrong and you classify anyone who cares to challenge that ideology as being anti-America or anti-American. Perhaps you need to understand why there are so many and try to understand why they feel the way they do, instead of trying to insult their intelligence through the use of threads such as this one?

Swimmingpool

06-03-2005, 22:59

Here are some of the reasons I believe there are so many on here who post knee-jerk anti-Americanism:

1. We make a good target. Anyone on top in any field of endeavour is automatically highly visible. Attacking them is easy and fun for those with lesser achievements.

2. Differing opinions on the response to 9/11. 9/11 was a wake-up call for America. It was seen as an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked. Traditionally, America is quick to respond to this sort of thing ( see Pearl Harbor ). Many who post on here apparently agree with the position presented to me by a foreign national almost immediately after 9/11: "Just forget it and move on." This is not the way America responds to attacks on its civilians on its own soil.

3. Envy. Many of the anti_american posters on here are from nations which have been superpowers in the past: Germany, France, Russia, even Great Britain. There is a degree of envy at the impact America and American actions have on their own countries at this point in time, witness the so-called "cultural imperialism" allegations. This is most often used by Germans ( who tried their damndest to conquer the entire world! ), and French ( who managed to reach Moscow before the weather decimated them ). Which is worse, taking over another country by force, or taking over a portion of another country's culture by offering good products and services at a reasonable price?

4. Resentment at having America presume to advocate a better form of government ( democracy ) for people who have been unable to attain it for themselves.

5. Fear that America is finally recognizing that its influence and power are capable of changing the world. I've noted that some on here who claim that America is trying to establish an empire seem to fear that, now that America is hitting her stride, their own country will be somehow "taken over." This despite the fact that America has never kept territory from any of the nations she defeated, other than a few small islands for naval and airforce bases, which were used to defend other nations.

Another poster ( The Alma Mater ) referred me to an article about the current differences between how Americans view the world and how Europeans view the world. I highly recommend it, since it goes a long way toward explaining these differing world views: http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html

These are some of the reasons I see for anti-Americansim. This thread is not suppose to be flame-bait, but rather just the perspective of one American on this issue. Please at least try to present your arguments in a calm, logical, reasoned manner, rather than simply saying something along the lines of "America sucks!"
1. Correct.

2. Maybe. We don't think that the US should have done nothing after 9/11, but we think that its approach to eliminating the threats has been excessively militarist. As for 9/11 - "an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked". Unwarranted? Certainly. Unprovoked? Certainly not. You must be ignorant to reality if you think that US foreign policy doesn't offend Arabs.

3. You're entirely wrong. Most anti-US-imperialist critics here also denounce their own country's past imperialism.

4. Yes, it's arrogant.

5. America has been pretty assertive since 1945, but we think that Bush has gone too far.

Pyromanstahn

06-03-2005, 23:03

1. Correct.

2. Maybe. We don't think that the US should have done nothing after 9/11, but we think that its approach to eliminating the threats has been excessively militarist. As for 9/11 - "an unwarranted attack on innocent civilians and totally unprovoked". Unwarranted? Certainly. Unprovoked? Certainly not. You must be ignorant to reality if you think that US foreign policy doesn't offend Arabs.

3. You're entirely wrong. Most anti-US-imperialist critics here also denounce their own country's past imperialism.

4. Yes, it's arrogant.

5. America has been pretty assertive since 1945, but we think that Bush has gone too far.

Everyone's responses to this seem to be the same; 1 is true, the rest are BS, and 3 is total BS.

Jamil

06-03-2005, 23:05

I like America and Americans. I don't like American media. I don't like the Bush Administration.

Swimmingpool

06-03-2005, 23:44

how enlightening. :rolleyes:
Yes it was crudely worded, but how many times must we repeat?

We are not envious of the US.

The Emperor Fenix

06-03-2005, 23:48

I'm very envious of the US, i've never encountered another country that boats more than one citizen that believes its country is so good the resdst of the developed world i jealous.

That takes some doing.

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 00:01

Everyone's responses to this seem to be the same; 1 is true, the rest are BS, and 3 is total BS.
You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine. I stated the reasons why I think those are the primary reasons many anti-American posters hold the opinions they do. So far as I'm concerned, they still stand. If my holding opinions different from yours bothers you, you can choose to ignore me, try to pursuade me of the error of my ways, or do as some others have done lately when things don't go their way: simply take your marbles and go home.

The Black Imperium

07-03-2005, 00:10

I find several things in this topic higly amusing:
1. The number of people with less than a hundred posts who are saying anything from 'America is a base for fundamental Christians' (Wrong on SO many levels), to 'Your wrong because your stupid.' (Not the exact words, but the gist of the 'arguement')
Got to say - that since this applies to me, I have been here half a year and while I do not feel compelled to reply to every thread I read - I have read a lot of threads here... And why is 'America is a base for fundamental Christians' wrong on so many levels? It certainly doesn't seem to be all that inaccurate to me. I am a part of other communities and there is a recurring theme in that the least liberal Christians, with the harshest views... are mainly American and they certainly have no problem with admitting they are Christian. Of course I am paraphrasing, but I have read serious descriptions of people which more or less implies fascism. And to top it off "Please don't hate me because I'm a Christian." I am Catholic, raised in a good Catholic way... It offends me that people can class themselves along with me, as if our views are somehow harmonious. Nevertheless, I suppose it could be that all the extremists just have an internet connection and make a vast majority of nice American people look bad. Or perhaps, they aren't very quaint in how they express their views to others and it just has this tendency to piss me off.

San haiti

07-03-2005, 00:10

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine. I stated the reasons why I think those are the primary reasons many anti-American posters hold the opinions they do. So far as I'm concerned, they still stand. If my holding opinions different from yours bothers you, you can choose to ignore me, try to pursuade me of the error of my ways, or do as some others have done lately when things don't go their way: simply take your marbles and go home.

The thing is WE are the anti americans and we are saying those points arent true. You cant project your reasons onto us and say they're true because, basically you're not one of us. Its not our opinion that those points are true, its a fact that they're not because we are the ones you're referring to and we get to decide what our reasons are. And i may not be able to speak for every antiamerican but from the looks of it, i hold the same opinions as the majority.

edit:spelling

Letila

07-03-2005, 00:15

I hate it for its bigotry, prudishness, and calous disregard for the needy. Its terrible education system is pretty irritating and I can't stand the way everyone says the US has such advanced technology despite being years behind Japan and probably many more countries very soon.

Deltaepsilon

07-03-2005, 00:33

The original post was never intended to be, nor was it anything more than exactly what I stated it to be: one man's opinion on the reasons for so many posts by the anti-American crowd on here. Thusly it is not "flamebait."
Dude, opinion is not a real defense. Was the mere fact that it is your opinion your motivation to post? I don't think so. People start threads for the express purpose of illiciting a response. When the response you intend to illicit is a flame, posting your "opinion" is flamebait.

If I were to start a thread saying "XXXXX is teh stupid", it would be "one man's opinion" (using man as a gender-neutral term), but it would still be flamebait.

Freedomfrize

07-03-2005, 00:37

We are not envious of the US.

You will NEVER make them believe that :D

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 01:16

Dude, opinion is not a real defense. Was the mere fact that it is your opinion your motivation to post? I don't think so. People start threads for the express purpose of illiciting a response. When the response you intend to illicit is a flame, posting your "opinion" is flamebait.

If I were to start a thread saying "XXXXX is teh stupid", it would be "one man's opinion" (using man as a gender-neutral term), but it would still be flamebait.
Then perhaps you should report me to the mods.

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 01:24

You will NEVER make them believe that :D
Well, I can't speak for "them," but speaking for just me, I suspect you may be right. If you can give an effective rationale for why that isn't true, I may change my views on that one reason.

Manawskistan

07-03-2005, 01:26

I like America and Americans. I don't like American media. I don't like the Bush Administration.
:cool:

Can't we all be logical like this fellow.

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 01:29

Well, I can't speak for "them," but speaking for just me, I suspect you may be right. If you can give an effective rationale for why that isn't true, I may change my views on that one reason.
i've decided to respond to this with complete disregard for the topic at hand, and without even bothering to read the thread. Eutrusca, and i say this merely to be argumentative and difficult, you are aged and incorrect. :D

Deltaepsilon

07-03-2005, 02:07

Then perhaps you should report me to the mods.
I have absolutely no intention of doing so, I was just hoping to get you to recognize that your tactics are part of the problem.

New British Glory

07-03-2005, 02:27

Americans are anti British. All they can do is speak the usual, anti British rubbish that has been spewing forth from yankee mouths since the American War of Independence and it only reinforces my opinion that America, Americans and American culture are fundamentally anti British. Before I do begin I would like to make it clear that I am British and a full member of the Conservative Party. That should stop any attempts to call me a socialist leftie. I have many examples to back this theory up so let us begin:

American Betrayal: Yes I know it happened in 1786 but in my opinion it is still relevant to today. This so-called war against tyranny (ha!) began over a tiny amount of tax on tea. Americans already lived in a virtually tax free zone, far more tax-free than Motherland Britain. And why did we place this tax on tea? So that we could pay for defences around the American colonies! Their so-called "War of Liberty" on us was little more than a scam. The rich Americans, unhappy at this tiny bit of tax eating away at their already massive profits, roused the rabble using their false words. Replace "liberty" with "greed" and "freedom" with "slavery" and I think you have the gist of the American War of Independence. In films like the Patriot, the British are accused of massive war crimes. I can tell you now as a historian that the only war crimes during that entire war were inflicted by American rebels on loyal British citizens. As to an entire nation being united against Britain? Ha. One of third of all Americans were loyalist and they were forced to flee by the vindictive rebels after the war finished. The American War of Independence was not about liberty for all: it was about liberty for the fat, slave owning plantation owners and that is still the way that America runs today. My main point here is from the birth of their nation, the Americans have been fundamentally anti British. They stabbed their own motherland in the back and drove the knife in deep. For that they should NEVER be forgiven. The American nation is a nation of traitors. They murdered British soldiers and are therefore murders. They have British blood on their hands. This war set out the fundamental beliefs of America. Self-interest is their fundamental belief and self-interest has never been high on the British agenda.

World War Two: The American version of this war is like so: Europeans doomed to tyranny and oppression forever, heroic American GIs save the hopeless Europeans, hooray war ends. This can be seen in any number of their history books and their films (like Saving Private Ryan for example). That story is a lie. The reason America came into the war wasn't to preserve liberty and freedom, far from it. They were happy enough to let Europe go to hell so long as THEY weren’t attacked. The only reason they came into World War Two was to protect their own backsides when the Japanese attacked them at Pearl Harbour. Not at all like the British who entered to defend Polish liberties and the peace of Europe. Britain never had to go to war: it is doubtful that Hitler would have attacked us due to his deep respect for Britain and its Empire. Britain could have pulled out of he war at any time: the Germans were constantly offering us favourable terms of peace that would allow us to preserve most of our Empire. But no! Britain kept on fighting for what it believed in. We didn't fight out of self-interest: our self-interest was with peace. That shows the fundamental difference between Americans and British. Britain fight for principles, Americans fight for themselves. When they finally entered the war, a great deal of work was already done. Montgomery had won at Alamein in North Africa. The Battle of Britain was won. The Russians were beginning to push the Nazis back. The Americans did provide a large number of troops for D-Day that’s true but remember that 2 out of 5 beaches were British beaches and 1 of the others was a mixed Canadian/British force. But do they get a mention in any of their Hollywood propaganda? NO. Were we to believe Private Ryan then we would believe that America won World War Two all by itself. Finally, America showed absolutely no interest in helping Europe even once it was in the war. During the last two years, it was of absolute importance to secure as much of Europe from the Communist powers to the east. Churchill (a man with 44 years experience in the European political scene) told the Americans that they had to capture many parts of Europe in order to prevent Communist tyranny. He was ignored by the arrogant Americans and so all of Central Europe was sacrificed just so the Americans could run off back home. Central Europe would spend the next 60 years under the tyrannical rule of Communism thanks to America. Had they listened to Churchill, then most of Germany would have been saved. In their own selfish rush, the Americans created the most dangerous political situation for 40 years, as Soviet Russia had the run of nearly all of Europe. One last final point here: Americans still claim that they won the war all by themselves. To claim this is to spit on every British, French, Canadian, Polish and Russian wargrave.

The British Empire: One point to start my ranting: the American Revolution was not "the funeral toll of the British Empire" as so many Yank historians believe. The British Empire went on for over 150 years after the American Revolution so I would hardly call it a funeral. The British Empire (contrary to Yank propaganda) was actually the most liberal empire ever seen on the face of the earth (and I consider it far more liberal than the American Empire currently in creation). Slavery was non existent within the British Empire by 1850, having first been banned in 1806. Members of the colonies were not surpressed by the British Army as the British Army was too small to enact such a large-scale act of oppression. With British technology and British money and British expertise, once backward nations were turned into industrial powerhouses. In the space of a century, India turned from a squabbling bunch of princedoms into a united, advanced and well-governed country with an intact education system, transport system, industrial infrastructure and civil service, all of which were set up by the British Empire. India today is a super power thanks to the legacy left to them by the British. And all being said done it was better that the British (a liberal democracy) gained control of these places than the Japanese, Germans or Italians. But America saw this Empire as a threat and so took the first opportunity offered to it to destroy it. Using its global power status, it forced Britain out of the Empire, leaving the good work unfinished. The Americans forced the British out in such a rush that the British had to come up with implausible and unworkable plans for their departure. Once again America had acted out of self-interest in the disguise of liberty.

American Cultural Invasion: Let me tell America what we don't want. We don't want you horrible, greasy fat food chains clogging our streets. We don't want your cheap, Hollywood propaganda films. We don't want your immoral television. We don't want a system of self-interest in place of British social capitalism (a balance between socialism and capitalism, essentially a liberal state). In short we want our own cultures, free from American influence. The British Empire never went out to destroy cultures. In India, Christian missionaries were banned by the British and the Indian culture was allowed to remain and flourish. Why have not the Welsh, Scottish or Irish cultures not disappeared? Because Britain is a tolerant nation. America is now using its super power status to invade our shores: not with troops but with their tainted and corrupt culture. To the people of Britain: say arse instead of ass, ensure you use the British pronunciation of words. If you don't then you may as well kiss the stars and stripes and call President Bush your leader. America only seeks to destroy native cultures and replace them with its own, filled with MacDonalds and episodes of Friends.

Well I would advise all to read this before the admin ban it. Free speech, my arse. Just remember that American culture is based on self-interest. I do not like Europe but at least the French and Germans have honour. I would rather ally myself with Europe than with dishonest, selfish, corrupt, unprincipled, hateful, dishonourable, treacherous America.

Whispering Legs

07-03-2005, 02:30

American Cultural Invasion: Let me tell America what we don't want. We don't want you horrible, greasy fat food chains clogging our streets.

Oh, like fish and chips...

or Yorkshire pudding...

wait a minute, I like eating those greasy, fat foods...

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 02:30

i've decided to respond to this with complete disregard for the topic at hand, and without even bothering to read the thread. Eutrusca, and i say this merely to be argumentative and difficult, you are aged and incorrect. :D
Obviously so! Thank you for reminding me. :)

Super-power

07-03-2005, 02:30

American Betrayal: Yes I know it happened in 1786 but in my opinion it is still relevant to today.
The American Revolution happened about five years after we won (10 years after the Declaration of Independence)? Geez, my history teachers were all wrong.

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 02:31

--snip--
that's an incredably broad, sweeping generalization. On both ends of the argument. mayhap your opinions are noto those of every other british individual, and perhaps the popular stereotype of the fat stupid lazy loudmouth american is a tad unfair?

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 02:32

Obviously so! Thank you for reminding me. :)
any time, grandpa. :D

Whispering Legs

07-03-2005, 02:34

The British Empire never went out to destroy cultures. In India, Christian missionaries were banned by the British and the Indian culture was allowed to remain and flourish. Why have not the Welsh, Scottish or Irish cultures not disappeared? Because Britain is a tolerant nation.

Yes, I'm sure that the victims of Bloody Sunday would agree that Britain is a tolerant nation.

And I'm sure that Britain didn't go out of its way to hold onto India as long as it could - until it was politically and militarily impossible to do so. It took a man like Gandhi to shame the British into leaving.

I'm sure the victims of the Irish potato famine would have something to say about British foreign policy. As would the Welsh and Scots over the years.

But, as they say, let bygones be bygones...

Custodes Rana

07-03-2005, 02:37

I do not like Europe but at least the French and Germans have honour.

Tell us all about "honour"............

Germany - forcing millions into concentration camps, starting WWII, exacerbating WWI, selling chemicals to Saddams for his chemical weapons, selling weapons to Saddam despite UN sanctions

France - genocide in Rwanda, the killing of protesting civilians in Cote d'Ivorie, selling weapons to Saddam despite UN sanctions.

Manawskistan

07-03-2005, 02:37

A bunch of what I certainly hope was scathing British sarcasm
It's not often that I can say that I stopped reading after the first sentence, but you did it. You made an unreadable post.

Custodes Rana

07-03-2005, 02:39

I like America and Americans. I don't like American media. I don't like the Bush Administration.

I don't watch the American media, and I voted against Bush!

:cool:
Can't we all be logical like this fellow.

It's easier for the Elitists to generalize Americans into the "Great Satan" and leave it at that.

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 02:43

Tell us all about "honour"............

Germany - forcing millions into concentration camps, starting WWII, exacerbating WWI, selling chemicals to Saddams for his chemical weapons, selling weapons to Saddam despite UN sanctions

France - genocide in Rwanda, the killing of protesting civilians in Cote d'Ivorie, selling weapons to Saddam despite UN sanctions.
don't forget about "french indochina" better known as vietnam, laos, and i think cambodia. even before the fighting in vietnam started, the french effectively starved millions to death. i'm jsut going to ignore the heart renching numbers of dead in a war that is sadi to have stretched over 30 years, though the argument could be made that it lasted closer to fifty.

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 02:44

1. Americans are anti British.

2. American Betrayal: Yes I know it happened in 1786 but in my opinion it is still relevant to today.

3. World War Two: The American version of this war is like so: Europeans doomed to tyranny and oppression forever, heroic American GIs save the hopeless Europeans, hooray war ends. America showed absolutely no interest in helping Europe even once it was in the war. During the last two years, it was of absolute importance to secure as much of Europe from the Communist powers to the east. ... all of Central Europe was sacrificed just so the Americans could run off back home. Central Europe would spend the next 60 years under the tyrannical rule of Communism thanks to America.

4. American Cultural Invasion: Let me tell America what we don't want. We don't want you horrible, greasy fat food chains clogging our streets. We don't want your cheap, Hollywood propaganda films. We don't want your immoral television.

5. I do not like Europe but at least the French and Germans have honour. I would rather ally myself with Europe than with dishonest, selfish, corrupt, unprincipled, hateful, dishonourable, treacherous America.
I think I've seen this rant before, or at least parts of it, in some of your other posts. It holds no more water now than it did then.

1. I'm not.

2. You accuse us of basing the entire of our approach toward GB on the revolutionary war, but then turn right around and do the very thing of which you accuse us. Doesn't do much for your argument.

3. I haven't noticed many Americans discounting the contributions of other nations toward the defeat of either German or Japanese aggression, but then perhaps I just hang out with a slightly better crowd. And to blame the entire Cold War on America because of something all four Allied powers agreed upon is specious at best. At the time, Europe was battered beyond belief and the Soviets were insisting that they be "compensated" for their contribution to the war effort by ceeding Eastern Eurpoe to their hegemony. All three of the other Allied nations agreed, not just the US.

4. Solution to the so-called "American cultural invasion:" don't buy American. Easy, yes?

5. Nice rant. Good that most British don't agree with it.

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 02:45

any time, grandpa. :D
Punk! :D

New British Glory

07-03-2005, 02:46

I think I've seen this rant before, or at least parts of it, in some of your other posts. It holds no more water now than it did then.

1. I'm not.

2. You acuse us of basing the entire of our approach toward GB on the revolutionary war, but then turn right around and do the very thing of which you accuse us. Doesn't do much for your argument.

3. I haven't noticed many Americans discounting the contributions of other nations toward the defeat of either German or Japanese aggression, but then perhaps I just hang out with a slightly better crowd. And to blame the entire Cold War on America because of something all four Allied powers agreed upon is specious at best. At the time, Europe was battered beyond belief and the Soviets were insisting that they be "compensated" for their contribution to the war effort by ceeding Eastern Eurpoe to their hegemony. All three of the other Allied nations agreed, not just the US.

4. Soluton t the so-called "American cultural invasion:" don't buy American. Easy, yes?

5. Nice rant. Good that most British don't agree with it.

Dont tell me the strength of anti american opinion in my own country yank.

Global Liberators

07-03-2005, 02:48

God dammit, Americans suck. haha

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 02:49

Punk! :D
young punk. there in lies the difference. you old, old man. :D

Salutus

07-03-2005, 02:50

Dont tell me the strength of anti american opinion in my own country yank.

yeah we're yanks and damn proud of it. it's people like you who bitch about how 'america's forcing itself on the world,' and 'american culture's invading my country,' but turn right around and complain that we didn't show enough interest in world war two. you have grossly overgeneralized and categorized us as 'treacherous' and 'dishonourable,' and you base your opinion of us on a revolution that you don't even know the correct year of. i could just as easily judge you based on medieval torture methods of anglo-saxons.

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 02:50

Dont tell me the strength of anti american opinion in my own country yank.
Oh? whatever happened to your much vaunted "freedom of speech?" Hmmm?

Tell you what ... you refrain from telling us what to think and we'll refrain from telling you how the majority of your countrymen feel. :D

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 02:51

Dont tell me the strength of anti american opinion in my own country yank.
i like how your retort to his well founded and well put points was, essentially "shut up." good work. :fluffle: :fluffle:

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 02:51

young punk. there in lies the difference. you old, old man. :D
ROFLMAO!!! My bad!

Young, rash, ridiculous punk! ( how's that? ) :D

Gen William J Donovan

07-03-2005, 02:57

Dont tell me the strength of anti american opinion in my own country yank.

I recently spent two weeks in England and I didn't encounter any anti-americanism at all. There was a tremendous antipathy towards londoners however.

Custodes Rana

07-03-2005, 02:58

I recently spent two weeks in England and I didn't encounter any anti-americanism at all. There was a tremendous antipathy towards londoners however.

Business or pleasure??

Interhard

07-03-2005, 02:59

Dont tell me the strength of anti american opinion in my own country yank.

Silly little boy, do you know what hypocrisy is? You know how you want to tell us about what we do and don't like and have the e-balls to tell us not to do the same to you.........

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 03:00

ROFLMAO!!! My bad!

Young, rash, ridiculous punk! ( how's that? ) :D
much better. thank you for your consideration. i realize that here, in the autumn of your life, it can be hard to remember these things.

Salutus

07-03-2005, 03:03

Yeah thats right. I hate all of you, stinking bastards and what you did to my country and my empire. We worked for a thousand years to build up our right to this world, the right to spread the light of Britannic civilisation from us. And you, usurpers, stole it from us and ruined our work to bring the world into the modern era. Usurpers, creators of filth, destroyers, mongrels, wretches and philistines of no culture, brains or class. The only place Americans belong is the place where all traitors belong - on the gibbet when the crows peck their innards. Oh how I hate you all, so smug and arrogant having stolen something that was never yours and you never worked for.

They say that soon there will be a super volcanic eruption in one of your (sorry I meant Britain's) national parks. When you are dead, there will be those who morn. I wont. Nature is the ulitmate pest remover and she will have exterminated a particuarlly vicious and nasty breed of cockroach.

Do I care about Bush or Kerry, Republican or Democrat? No. American is as American does.

didn't work for? how about all the pioneers that died discovering new territories? ROFLMAO!!! listen to yourself! you live in a sick, sad little world and need some serious help. since i can't convey my feelings through this *british* keyboard, i'll just have to give you my word that i'm giving you the finger!

Mekdemia

07-03-2005, 03:04

Yeah thats right. I hate all of you, stinking bastards and what you did to my country and my empire. We worked for a thousand years to build up our right to this world, the right to spread the light of Britannic civilisation from us. And you, usurpers, stole it from us and ruined our work to bring the world into the modern era. Usurpers, creators of filth, destroyers, mongrels, wretches and philistines of no culture, brains or class. The only place Americans belong is the place where all traitors belong - on the gibbet when the crows peck their innards. Oh how I hate you all, so smug and arrogant having stolen something that was never yours and you never worked for.

They say that soon there will be a super volcanic eruption in one of your (sorry I meant Britain's) national parks. When you are dead, there will be those who morn. I wont. Nature is the ulitmate pest remover and she will have exterminated a particuarlly vicious and nasty breed of cockroach.

Do I care about Bush or Kerry, Republican or Democrat? No. American is as American does.

Don't be jealous just cause we could whip your asses if we ever get bored. Be happy, you'll get your asses killed last, instead of first, like Iraq, North Korea, and Can-. I've said too much.

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 03:04

Brief moment of hate ridden insanity do apologise no sleep lots of alcoholo
well deleted.

Interhard

07-03-2005, 03:07

And lets be honest here. The Netherlands, Spain and France settled more of the eventual-US than England. Hell, Russia had a larger settlement.

Custodes Rana

07-03-2005, 03:08

Oh how I hate you all, so smug and arrogant having stolen something that was never yours and you never worked for.

Which explains why YOUR country sent Scottish prisoners to the colonies as indentured servents to work for their freedom.....

How about why certain people left England due to religious persecution....

So much for "stolen" and "never worked for"............ :rolleyes:

Urantia II

07-03-2005, 03:09

Americans are anti British. All they can do is speak the usual, anti British rubbish that has been spewing forth from yankee mouths since the American War of Independence and it only reinforces my opinion that America, Americans and American culture are fundamentally anti British.

You "paint" my Country with some very broad strokes my friend.

Before I do begin I would like to make it clear that I am British and a full member of the Conservative Party. That should stop any attempts to call me a socialist leftie.

You are free to SAY what you wish about yourself or anything else you like, but I will also feel free to examine your statements and feel you are a "Socialist" if those are the ideals you espouse.

American Betrayal: Yes I know it happened in 1786 but in my opinion it is still relevant to today. This so-called war against tyranny (ha!) began over a tiny amount of tax on tea. Americans already lived in a virtually tax free zone, far more tax-free than Motherland Britain. And why did we place this tax on tea? So that we could pay for defences around the American colonies! Their so-called "War of Liberty" on us was little more than a scam. The rich Americans, unhappy at this tiny bit of tax eating away at their already massive profits, roused the rabble using their false words. Replace "liberty" with "greed" and "freedom" with "slavery" and I think you have the gist of the American War of Independence.

Something about "Taxation without Representation" YOU don't get?

In films like the Patriot, the British are accused of massive war crimes. I can tell you now as a historian that the only war crimes during that entire war were inflicted by American rebels on loyal British citizens.

So first you profess to be an "expert" on the subject and then state that British Soldiers were never guilty of "War Crimes" while in the same breath accuse Americans of them? I'm not saying either side did or didn't, from what I have read they were BOTH GUILTY of some instances of War Crimes at different times during the War.

As to an entire nation being united against Britain? Ha. One of third of all Americans were loyalist and they were forced to flee by the vindictive rebels after the war finished. The American War of Independence was not about liberty for all: it was about liberty for the fat, slave owning plantation owners and that is still the way that America runs today.

I don't know what History Books they subject YOU to over in Brittan but I have never seen it claimed in any that I have read here in the U.S. that claim that ALL of the states citizens were behind the War, quite the contrary. I have read in numerous History Books that the ones fighting the British were a MINORITY not a MAJORITY.

My main point here is from the birth of their nation, the Americans have been fundamentally anti British. They stabbed their own motherland in the back and drove the knife in deep. For that they should NEVER be forgiven. The American nation is a nation of traitors. They murdered British soldiers and are therefore murders. They have British blood on their hands. This war set out the fundamental beliefs of America. Self-interest is their fundamental belief and self-interest has never been high on the British agenda.

Self-Interest or Self-Determination? The two are not the same.

Something tells me that you are just a bit pissed that an up and coming Nation was able to kick YOUR Nations ASS not just once but TWICE!

As for "murdering" British Soldiers, again you may call it what you like but might I suggest that... War is HELL!

World War Two: The American version of this war is like so: Europeans doomed to tyranny and oppression forever, heroic American GIs save the hopeless Europeans, hooray war ends. This can be seen in any number of their history books and their films (like Saving Private Ryan for example). That story is a lie. The reason America came into the war wasn't to preserve liberty and freedom, far from it. They were happy enough to let Europe go to hell so long as THEY weren’t attacked. The only reason they came into World War Two was to protect their own backsides when the Japanese attacked them at Pearl Harbour. Not at all like the British who entered to defend Polish liberties and the peace of Europe.

Something about the American Pilots who went to Brittan LONG before we entered the War YOU are unaware of?

How about the "Lend Lease Act"?

Are you sure you are a "Historian"?

Britain never had to go to war: it is doubtful that Hitler would have attacked us due to his deep respect for Britain and its Empire. Britain could have pulled out of he war at any time: the Germans were constantly offering us favourable terms of peace that would allow us to preserve most of our Empire. But no! Britain kept on fighting for what it believed in. We didn't fight out of self-interest: our self-interest was with peace. That shows the fundamental difference between Americans and British. Britain fight for principles, Americans fight for themselves.

I guess you have never read "Mien Kampf" or the Lost Book of Hitler’s that not only talked about conquering the whole of Europe, which included Brittan by the way, but also talked about the eventual attack and defeat of the American "empire"?

Again, are you sure you are a Historian?

I am not going to even bother addressing the rest of this diatribe, it is very obvious to me at least that you have a certain way of recalling History that suits your needs.

You obviously have some deep seated hatred for a Nation that so obviously "bested" yours over the last couple of centuries. Perhaps if you and your Countrymen had used your time to MAKE your Nation better rather than try and force your old ways on those who wished a more fair and Representative form of Government you may have been able to hold on to some sort of Global Power for a bit longer and not been relegated to a "has been" Nation?!?!

And I believe that WE Americans should ALSO clean up our OWN House just as we are trying to assist other Nations in becoming Democracies. We have yet to get Democracy absolutely Right ourselves...

And I don't actually BELIEVE what I just said about Brittan, because I believe there are Brittan’s, just as there are Americans or any other Nationality, which do try and make their OWN System better. I just wanted to "show" New British Glory how it is to "paint" a Nation with such a Broad Brush...

Regards,
Gaar

MEDKtulu

07-03-2005, 03:11

Nimzonia

07-03-2005, 03:13

Dont tell me the strength of anti american opinion in my own country yank.

I, being a British liberal, don't particularly find your arguments to hold any merit. Nobody here cares about the Revolutionary war or the Empire, except a minority of wankers.

However, to be fair and balanced, this thread is nothing but a kooky old man rattling his walking stick. :p

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 03:20

<--- English

I don't hate america/americans as such, but I do dislike you as a nation. I know this doesn't apply to all americans and is a generalisation, but as has been said earlier this is my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. Reasons include:

Brash, loud, arrogant, superiority complex, presumptuous attitude that since we critise you we are envious of you :rolleyes:

Threads such as this only seem to reinforce this opinion in me.

And alot more UK people think this way than you seem to think. After all I think I know more people than you and their opinions.

Flame away
i may be alone in this, but i don't plan on flaming you. i don't identify myself by my nationality. if your experience with americans such as myself has led you to believe that we are rude, snobbish bastards with no regard for others, than i am sorry you have had such a poor sampling of a giant and diverse land. and i am aware of the very widespread ill-will and rancor directed at the nation of my birth, but i am equally aware of the fact that even those who consistently spout anger and hatred towards this country would not hate me, myself, merely because of my affinity with it. i kind of got sidetracked and lost my train of thought. Pirates of the Carribean is a remarkably entertaining and engrossing movie, despite it's stupidity.

Urantia II

07-03-2005, 03:21

A POEM FOR THE FRENCH

Eleven thousand soldiers
lay beneath the dirt and stone,
all buried on a distant land
so far away from home.

For just a strip of dismal beach
they paid a hero's price,
to save a foreign nation
they made the sacrifice.

And now the shores of Normandy
are lined with blocks of white
Americans who didn't turn
from someone else's plight.

Eleven thousand reasons
for the French to take our side,
but in the moment of our need,
they chose to run and hide.

Chirac said every war means loss,
perhaps for France that's true,
for they've lost every battle
since the days of Waterloo.

Without a soldier worth a damn
to be found within the region,
the French became the only land
to need a Foreign Legion.

You French all say we're arrogant.
Well hell, we've earned the right--
We saved your sorry nation
when you lacked the guts to fight.

But now you've made a big mistake,
and one that you'll regret;
you took sides with our enemies,
and that we won't forget.

It wasn't just our citizens
you spit on when you turned,
but every one of yours who fell
the day the towers burned.

You spit upon our soldiers,
on our pilots and Marines,
and now you'll get a little sense
of just what payback means.

So keep your Paris fashions
and your wine and your champagne,
and find some other market
that will buy your aeroplanes.

And try to find somebody else
to wear your French cologne,
for you're about to find out
what it means to stand alone.

You see, you need us far more
than we ever needed you.
America has better friends
who know how to be true.

I'd rather stand with warriors
who have the will and might,
than huddle in the dark
with those whose only flag is white.

I'll take the Brits, the Aussies,
the Israelis and the rest,
for when it comes to valor
we have seen that they're the best.

We'll count on one another
as we face a moment dire,
while you sit on the sideline
with a sign, "friendship for hire."

We'll win this war without you
and we'll total up the cost,
and take it from your foreign aid,
and then you'll feel the loss.

And when your nation starts to fall,
well, Frenchie, you can spare us,
just call the Germans for a hand,
they know the way to Paris.

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 03:21

However, to be fair and balanced, this thread is nothing but a kooky old man rattling his walking stick.
Eutrusca? i think he uses crutches these days. Maybe in a month or so he'll be able to shake the walking stick again. :D

side note to Eutrusca: :fluffle: :fluffle: don't shoot me. :fluffle: :fluffle:

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 03:25

I, being a British liberal, don't particularly find your arguments to hold any merit. Nobody here cares about the Revolutionary war or the Empire, except a minority of wankers.

However, to be fair and balanced, this thread is nothing but a kooky old man rattling his walking stick. :p
ROFLMAO!!! Well, I'd much prefer to be called "a kooky old man rattling [my] walking stick" than be considered in a "minority of wankers!" ROFLAMO! :D

Salutus

07-03-2005, 03:26

:upyours: <--- English

I don't hate america/americans as such, but I do dislike you as a nation. I know this doesn't apply to all americans and is a generalisation, but as has been said earlier this is my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. Reasons include:

Brash, loud, arrogant, superiority complex, presumptuous attitude that since we critise you we are envious of you :rolleyes:

Threads such as this only seem to reinforce this opinion in me.

And alot more UK people think this way than you seem to think. After all I think I know more people than you and their opinions.

Flame away

from now on i will grossly overgeneralize all britons as hypocrits, because *the few that i have met seem to exhibit this quality and *they all come from the same geographic region so why wouldn't they be the same? (sound familiar?)
This thread made no attempt to be brash or arrogant, merely to find some sense (if any) behind all your retarded anti-american reasoning.
When will you get it through your thick skulls that not EVERYONE (in fact, only 51%) SUPPORTS BUSH? not EVERYONE (probably less than 51%) is glad
that we went to iraq, and NOT EVERYONE sits at home cackling with blueprints for a starbucks at the top of London Tower, thinking about how diabolical we are because our culture invaded yours.
Personally, i am sick of your bitching. you classify americans 'as a nation' as brash, arrogant etc, but this only further demonstrates your hypocrisy. I have never before in my life said (for example) that 'canadians as a nation are stupid.' do you know why? because until i have met the MAJORITY of canadians, i will have NO IDEA whether or not this is true and thus my claim will be totally unfounded, as is your nonsensical bullshit.
also, a lot more americans feel the way i do than you think. i would know, i am one. :rolleyes:

MEDKtulu

07-03-2005, 03:28

i may be alone in this, but i don't plan on flaming you. i don't identify myself by my nationality. if your experience with americans such as myself has led you to believe that we are rude, snobbish bastards with no regard for others, than i am sorry you have had such a poor sampling of a giant and diverse land. and i am aware of the very widespread ill-will and rancor directed at the nation of my birth, but i am equally aware of the fact that even those who consistently spout anger and hatred towards this country would not hate me, myself, merely because of my affinity with it. i kind of got sidetracked and lost my train of thought. Pirates of the Carribean is a remarkably entertaining and engrossing movie, despite it's stupidity.

As I said it's a generalisation (spelling? it's 2:30 and I'm tired) and not a reflection on any individual. I disagree with (most of) Eutrusca's initial post as I feel that it is innacurate a representation of the views of america from an outsiders perspective. Now obviously I can't speak for the rest of the world (although I am tempted:p) only my view. You disagree with that generalisation and I disagree with Eutrusca's generalisation. A difference of opinion/culture/age (I'm 25;)) or something else? I don't know.

What I do know is my bed is looking really tempting at the moment now :D

Salutus

07-03-2005, 03:28

A POEM FOR THE FRENCH
snip

*wild applause*

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 03:32

As I said it's a generalisation (spelling? it's 2:30 and I'm tired) and not a reflection on any individual. I disagree with (most of) Eutrusca's initial post as I feel that it is innacurate a representation of the views of america from an outsiders perspective. Now obviously I can't speak for the rest of the world (although I am tempted:p) only my view. You disagree with that generalisation and I disagree with Eutrusca's generalisation. A difference of opinion/culture/age (I'm 25;)) or something else? I don't know.

What I do know is my bed is looking really tempting at the moment now :D
then run to her (the bed, in case that was somehow unclear). run with open arms and an open heart.

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 03:33

much better. thank you for your consideration. i realize that here, in the autumn of your life, it can be hard to remember these things.
You keep this bullshit up, and I'm going to hit you three ways: hard, fast, and continuously! :D

MEDKtulu

07-03-2005, 03:33

:upyours:

from now on i will grossly overgeneralize all britons as hypocrits, because *the few that i have met seem to exhibit this quality and *they all come from the same geographic region so why wouldn't they be the same? (sound familiar?)
This thread made no attempt to be brash or arrogant, merely to find some sense (if any) behind all your retarded anti-american reasoning.
When will you get it through your thick skulls that not EVERYONE (in fact, only 51%) SUPPORTS BUSH? not EVERYONE (probably less than 51%) is glad
that we went to iraq, and NOT EVERYONE sits at home cackling with blueprints for a starbucks at the top of London Tower, thinking about how diabolical we are because our culture invaded yours.
Personally, i am sick of your bitching. you classify americans 'as a nation' as brash, arrogant etc, but this only further demonstrates your hypocrisy. I have never before in my life said (for example) that 'canadians as a nation are stupid.' do you know why? because until i have met the MAJORITY of canadians, i will have NO IDEA whether or not this is true and thus my claim will be totally unfounded, as is your nonsensical bullshit.
also, a lot more americans feel the way i do than you think. i would know, i am one. :rolleyes:

I agree, what I said is no different from what Eutrusca said. He made a generalised statement and so did I. As for you being sick of my bitching I have 29 other posts on this forum and I don't think many of them involved bitching. If you meant you as in everyone else who holds the same/similar opinion as me then you are just as guilty as me and Eutrusca. Face it, some people are naturally going to rub each other the wrong way and annoy each other.

MEDKtulu

07-03-2005, 03:35

then run to her (the bed, in case that was somehow unclear). run with open arms and an open heart.

Run? I'm a computer nerd, I can't take 2 steps without getting out of breath :p

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 03:36

Run? I'm a computer nerd, I can't take 2 steps without getting out of breath :p
crawl to her, give up and paass out on the floor!

doesn't have quite the same ring to it, i suppose.

MEDKtulu

07-03-2005, 03:39

Think I'll pass out here and wake up with backache. Good night

Salutus

07-03-2005, 03:39

Face it, some people are naturally going to rub each other the wrong way and annoy each other.

i have already faced it. the difference between you and me is that i have internalized this, while you have gone to a forum to insult another country.
what really gets me about all this anti-american shit is that i am not even at an age (16) where i have a say in the government, but i still fall into the 'brash' and 'arrogant' stereotype that many have simply because of my home country. i'm tired of catching flack for decisions that weren't mine, and decisions that weren't mine that were made hundreds of years ago shouldn't even be brought into a discussion that involves stereotyping me.

Andaluciae

07-03-2005, 03:40

I agree, what I said is no different from what Eutrusca said. He made a generalised statement and so did I. As for you being sick of my bitching I have 29 other posts on this forum and I don't think many of them involved bitching. If you meant you as in everyone else who holds the same/similar opinion as me then you are just as guilty as me and Eutrusca. Face it, some people are naturally going to rub each other the wrong way and annoy each other.
29 posts is nuthin'!

Parentopia

07-03-2005, 03:43

right on, brother. i hate all the people who bitch about america, especially when they can't back it up.

exactly. that and the marxist "peace" crowd who can't get over the fact that communism has failed every placed it has been put into practice. it's a real pity that they have hijacked the term "liberal", because a true liberal isn't a bad person. :headbang:

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 03:43

29 posts is nuthin'!
you tell that bloody limey bastard! :D

see, that's funny cuz it pokes fun at the miserable, blighted bastard that is/was lime disease. heh.

Melodiasu

07-03-2005, 03:47

Comment on the French poem:

Maybe I am ignorant, but I don't understand how the French Revolution and War on Terrorism have anything to do with eachother other than the fact that we helped the French. The thing is that these are two different wars, in two completely different times, and for completely different reasons. If we keep our ties with Europe strong, and some country tries to take over ours, then sure... then it's something in common and I don't see why they wouldn't help. But if France (and not just France, but apparently most of the world) doesn't agree with us on this war, they should have the right to not waste their money on it. I talked to an Exchange student (not from France, from Germany really, but eitherway), and I think one of the main reasons for not going into this is because of finances, not to mention that they don't agree with Bush (and you know what, I know a ton of AMERICANS that don't agree with Bush as well).

I just don't see the point in saying "Yeah well, we helped you a few hundred years ago, so now you have to help us in our own private agendas" (Not saying that every aspect of this Iraq deal is bad, but if many countries believe us (USA) to just want the oil there, then they are going to not join in and help us unless they truely know our plans are for real, there are no secret agendas like taking over oil there, ect ect.)

Alright.. I hope that is slightly understandable... I am tired and not well

(Oh, and by the way.. I don't think insulting other countries will help us look less arrogant and make them want to help us)

I am an American and I have absolutely no bad feelings for any country

Salutus

07-03-2005, 03:49

(Oh, and by the way.. I don't think insulting other countries will help us look less arrogant and make them want to help us)

*whiney* but they started it! :gundge:

Nimzonia

07-03-2005, 03:49

you tell that bloody limey bastard! :D

see, that's funny cuz it pokes fun at the miserable, blighted bastard that is/was lime disease. heh.

Lime disease? Isn't that what kettles get? :D

Melodiasu

07-03-2005, 03:50

*whiney* but they started it! :gundge:

Don't make me put you in time out! ^_~

New Sancrosanctia

07-03-2005, 03:51

Lime disease? Isn't that what kettles get? :D
yup. kettles and sailors.

Salutus

07-03-2005, 03:52

Don't make me put you in time out! ^_~

*pouting* -stomps off-

Nimzonia

07-03-2005, 03:57

yup. kettles and sailors.

Oh, Scurvy.

Eutrusca

07-03-2005, 03:58

what really gets me about all this anti-american shit is that i am not even at an age (16) where i have a say in the government, but i still fall into the 'brash' and 'arrogant' stereotype that many have simply because of my home country. i'm tired of catching flack for decisions that weren't mine, and decisions that weren't mine that were made hundreds of years ago shouldn't even be brought into a discussion that involves stereotyping me.
Welcome to the wonderful world of International Painters, where we tar all with the same brush! :rolleyes:

Urantia II

07-03-2005, 04:00

But if France (and not just France, but apparaently most of the world) doesn't agree with us on this war, they should have the right to not waste their money on it. I talked to an Exchange student (not from France, from Germany really, but eitherway), and I think one of the main reasons for not going into this is because of finances, not to mention that they don't agree with Bush (and you know what, I know a ton of AMERICANS that don't agree with Bush).

Yeah right, it has nothing to do with the corrupt "Oil for Food Program" and the TONS of Money they were making off of it, right?!?!

I just don't see the point in saying "Yeah well, we helped you a few hundred years ago, so now you have to help us in our own private agendas".

Hmmm, and here I thought the Second World War was fought and won in just the last century, some 60 years ago or so...

And let's not forget that our involvement in Viet Nam was because we were "helping" the French.

(Not saying that every aspect of this Iraq deal is bad, but if many countries believe us (USA) to just want the oil there, then they are going to not join in and help us unless they truely know our plans are for real, there are no secret agendas like taking over oil there, ect ect.

Secret Agenda's? You mean like stealing money from the "Oil for Food Program"?

And the Oil argument is getting a bit tiresome, I wish someone would explain how spending in excess of $200 Billion in fighting this War has done more to secure some Oil for us than if we had used the money to just ACTUALLY BUY OIL?!?!

(Oh, and by the way.. I don't think insulting other countries will help us look less arrogant and make them want to help us)

What insults? I hold those Truths to be "self-evident", as it were... ;)

But you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am mine.

Regards,
Gaar

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