NationStates Jolt Archive

So I have a couple of questions:
1] Is Arabic the common language of the global Muslim community? And if so, is it possible to be a practising Muslim without being fluent in Arabic?

No, Arabic is not the common language. Muslims are of all nationalities. Arabs are a small minority of Muslims.

Arabic is the language of Qur'an, yes, and every Muslim should strive to be able to read/recite Qur'an in Arabic, but it is quite possible to practice Islam without knowing a word of Arabic.

2] I'm very curious and interested in visiting a mosque, but as a non-Muslim Christian, I'm wondering how to go about this. I'm very open to and have the utmost respect for Islam (even the idea of converting has always something in the back of my mind).

Just go. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Just remember to take off your shoes when you enter the main room. Do not be afraid to ask for instruction. Do not be afraid to say you're Christian. :)

3] Who transcribed Qu'ran (using your omission of article :) ) originally. Is it believed that the prophet Muhammad himself was the one who did this?

Good question! One answer:

http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_who.htm

how does segregating the genders reduce "distraction"?

Men and women can be very distracting to one another. I know I could easily become distracted if a hot girlie were in my line of site with her face on the ground and butt in the air. ;)

Men and women can be very distracting to one another. I know I could easily become distracted if a hot girlie were in my line of site with her face on the ground and butt in the air. ;)
what about gay Muslims? i mean, even if Muslims aren't supposed to act on homosexual impulses (i'm honestly not sure what the Qu'ran has to say about that), there will still be Muslims who experience homosexual attractions...shouldn't Allah have people segregate themselves based on sexual orientation?

what about gay Muslims? i mean, even if Muslims aren't supposed to act on homosexual impulses (i'm honestly not sure what the Qu'ran has to say about that), there will still be Muslims who experience homosexual attractions...shouldn't Allah have people segregate themselves based on sexual orientation?

Ah, but that's part of the personal jihad any homosexual Muslims must go through. Muslims come from all walks of life. I've even been witness to alcoholics embracing Islam - even though alcohol is strictly forbidden.

Just go. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Just remember to take off your shoes when you enter the main room. Do not be afraid to ask for instruction. Do not be afraid to say you're Christian. :)


There is no way that I would ever step into a mosque and say that I'm a Christian. Where are you from? The way you describe Islam as peaceful and loving and all accepting must only apply to whatever utopian society that you hail from. Meanwhile, I'm turning on the news and seeing muslims killing 120 of their own people inside of a mosque, suicide bombers heard to scream something about Allah before blowing themselves up in a crowded market, women being treated like animals, despite what you said earlier about their equality, and recruitment for such fundamentalism soaring higher and higher with more devotion every day. I'm completely in favor of religious rights, but when your religion threatens my family's safety and security, we have a problem.

I would suggest that in your website you edit some of the cotton candy fluff that makes Islam seem like the humanitarian, peaceful, docile religion that it only is in certain locations. You need to clearly address the issue of murderous fundamentalism. If you reject that philosophy, that's great. Be loud and clear with your voice. Denounce your fellow brothers who pick up grenade launchers and kill innocents. If Allah is loving and merciful, then you have a duty to denounce these horrific realities.

If Allah is loving and merciful, then you have a duty to denounce these horrific realities.

Ah ... first posters. I love 'em all.

Anyway .... wanted to address this statement. No, I do not have a duty to denounce anything.

If the only way you can show the beauty of your religion is by denegrating or denouncing others, then your faith is a hollow faith and not worthy of anyone's time.

Ah ... first posters. I love 'em all.

Anyway .... wanted to address this statement. No, I do not have a duty to denounce anything.

If the only way you can show the beauty of your religion is by denegrating or denouncing others, then your faith is a hollow faith and not worthy of anyone's time.

So part of Islam is turning your back on reality? Sticking your head in the sand to avoid addressing the atrocities that are being committed in the same name that you worship? You said yourself that these people are not truly muslim, but they would just as easily kill you in the name of jihad for saying such a thing. You have no comment on this? Muslims want to be seen as what they claim their faith truly is, but they want to do so without addressing the fact that their faith has been hijacked by bloodthirsty, murderous, animals who also pray 5 times a day, celebrate Ramadan, and follow all other religious dogma pertaining to Islam. How are westerners supposed to know the difference? I disagree, if you want Islam to be seen as fun and games, you have to work toward that perception, against the will of your contemporaries who want the lot of us dead.

Christian fundamentalists scare me a lot more than Muslim fundamentalists. Why? Because the Christian fundies are all over here, while Muslim fundies are mostly overseas.

Though I agree with it being my duty to denounce evil. In whatever form. As a humanitarian atheist, it doesn't matter what form evil comes in. It doesn't matter if someone says their doing a particuliar diety's work. It doesn't matter if the evil is done in the name of religion, greed, lust, laziness or apathy. It's still evil.

Christian fundamentalists scare me a lot more than Muslim fundamentalists. Why? Because the Christian fundies are all over here, while Muslim fundies are mostly overseas.

Though I agree with it being my duty to denounce evil. In whatever form. As a humanitarian atheist, it doesn't matter what form evil comes in. It doesn't matter if someone says their doing a particuliar diety's work. It doesn't matter if the evil is done in the name of religion, greed, lust, laziness or apathy. It's still evil.
I am curious: as an atheist, how do you define "evil"?

Christian fundamentalists scare me a lot more than Muslim fundamentalists. Why? Because the Christian fundies are all over here, while Muslim fundies are mostly overseas.

Though I agree with it being my duty to denounce evil. In whatever form. As a humanitarian atheist, it doesn't matter what form evil comes in. It doesn't matter if someone says their doing a particuliar diety's work. It doesn't matter if the evil is done in the name of religion, greed, lust, laziness or apathy. It's still evil.

You must have your head in the sand right next to our muslim friend here. We lead civilized lives here where we can go to church, the grocery store, or watch a baseball game without our own citizens who look exactly like us blow us up to bits on a daily basis. The last huge tragedy that struck our soil was not our own citizens, or "Christian fundamentalists" that you abhor so much - it was followers of Islam, from other countries, hell-bent on destroying us. And American Christians scare you more? Be glad you didn't live in NYC at 9/11 - I'm sure you would feel quite differently.

So part of Islam is turning your back on reality?

No ... I didn't say that or in any way imply it.

Sticking your head in the sand to avoid addressing the atrocities that are being committed in the same name that you worship?

First of all, since when is sticking your head in the sand a bad thing? When an ostrich does it, it's looking for water ... not hiding.

Second, I've already addressed the issue ad nauseum. No amount of speech or rhetoric will stop people from killing in the name of whatever they want. You clearly denounce it ... did that stop it from happening yesterday? Nope.

You said yourself that these people are not truly muslim, but they would just as easily kill you in the name of jihad for saying such a thing. You have no comment on this?

No, actually, I have no comment on that. If they want to kill me, I say "Bring it on". I do not live in fear.

Muslims want to be seen as what they claim their faith truly is, but they want to do so without addressing the fact that their faith has been hijacked by bloodthirsty, murderous, animals who also pray 5 times a day, celebrate Ramadan, and follow all other religious dogma pertaining to Islam.

How does less than 1% of adherents to a particular religion define the entire religion? There are 1.5 billion Muslims, you know. You're basically saying something to the effect of the misogynist, warmongering Jerry Falwell represents all of Christendom. It's childish and ignorant.

How are westerners supposed to know the difference?

By opening their eyes and looking. Not by watching the news. If a billion Muslims did an act of great good and 1 Muslim blew up a bus full of kids, guess which would make the news?

I disagree, if you want Islam to be seen as fun and games, you have to work toward that perception, against the will of your contemporaries who want the lot of us dead.

So OBL and others are my contemporaries, eh? No ... Islam speaks for itself. It is not my problem if you refuse to pay attention.

Men and women can be very distracting to one another. I know I could easily become distracted if a hot girlie were in my line of site with her face on the ground and butt in the air. ;)

I don't think I would be distracted by the sight of men, but I think I might feel uncomfortable (therefore distracted) if I got the feeling they were looking at my butt :confused:

Btw I have been to a mosque once, in connection with a school paper I had to write. I went to interview the imam. It was absolutely no problem, everybody was very nice.

You must have your head in the sand right next to our muslim friend here. We lead civilized lives here where we can go to church, the grocery store, or watch a baseball game without our own citizens who look exactly like us blow us up to bits on a daily basis. The last huge tragedy that struck our soil was not our own citizens, or "Christian fundamentalists" that you abhor so much - it was followers of Islam, from other countries, hell-bent on destroying us. And American Christians scare you more? Be glad you didn't live in NYC at 9/11 - I'm sure you would feel quite differently.

Check where I'm from. Oklahoma City should worry a lot more about our homegrown terrorists. McVeigh and Nicols were right wing militia nuts. Very Christian. The Christian fundies are the ones trying to take control of my government. They are the ones I'm in danger of losing rights because of. They are the ones fucking with my schools, my government funds, and my freedom. If I weren't more woorried about them, I'd be the one with my head in the sand. You are either a Christian fundie, incredibly vunerable to media propoganda, or not too bright.

I am curious: as an atheist, how do you define "evil"?

That which harms others, if there is a way to avoid it without undue harm to oneself. While there are always individual cases that bear consideration, it's a very good general rule. Why do people think that one can't have ethics or morals without believing in the supernatural?

The Christian fundies are the ones trying to take control of my government. They are the ones I'm in danger of losing rights because of. They are the ones fucking with my schools, my government funds, and my freedom.

Preach on, sistah!

Second, I've already addressed the issue ad nauseum. No amount of speech or rhetoric will stop people from killing in the name of whatever they want. You clearly denounce it ... did that stop it from happening yesterday? Nope.

By denouncing it, you draw a defining line between good and evil. A number of years ago, a Christian bombed an abortion clinic. If I had your attitude I would have said, "Oh well, not my problem." But the main tenets of Christianity call on us to love our enemies and love one another. Based on this, my voice was loud to all who would listen. I viciously denounced the behavior of that murderous vermin, and those like him, who dare commit such atrocities in the name of Jesus Christ who spent his time on this earth loving sinners and helping all people regardless of their walk of life.

You don't denounce these evils to prevent them from happening, you denounce them to preserve the sanctity of your faith and to share the true meaning of the tenets of your faith, which you claim is brotherly love.

Preach on, sistah!

You know it, Keruv. The motto of my nation is "The job of a citizen is to keep his mouth open." I'm a very good citizen. :D

You don't denounce these evils to prevent them from happening, you denounce them to preserve the sanctity of your faith and to share the true meaning of the tenets of your faith, which you claim is brotherly love.

Difference between you and I is that I can preserve the sanctity of my faith and share the true meaning of it without denouncing one single human being in the process.

By denouncing those abortion clinic murderers, you are violating your own construct of loving your enemy. Doesn't that make you a little bit of a hypocrite?

You know it, Keruv. The motto of my nation is "The job of a citizen is to keep his mouth open." I'm a very good citizen. :D

Hehe ... well, 'tis a good motto to have. A nice way of saying, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". :)

Check where I'm from. Oklahoma City should worry a lot more about our homegrown terrorists. McVeigh and Nicols were right wing militia nuts. Very Christian. The Christian fundies are the ones trying to take control of my government. They are the ones I'm in danger of losing rights because of. They are the ones fucking with my schools, my government funds, and my freedom. If I weren't more woorried about them, I'd be the one with my head in the sand. You are either a Christian fundie, incredibly vunerable to media propoganda, or not too bright.

I'm a Christian Fundamentalist (ex-Jew) and I'm not trying to take control of the government, taking your rights, fucking with "your" schools, "your" government funds, or your freedom.

I'm also not very vulnerable to media propaganda.

Like you, I want to be left alone - I don't want anyone trying to tell me how to live or what to believe.

I'm a Christian Fundamentalist (ex-Jew) and I'm not trying to take control of the government, taking your rights, fucking with "your" schools, "your" government funds, or your freedom.


I don't think she meant you personally, but you must surely realize that a bad element within the right-wing evangelical group is gaining a powerful lobby in Washington.

I don't want anyone trying to tell me how to live or what to believe.

Exactly. Which is why the above mentioned lobby should not be allowed to gain too much of a foothold. If they do, they will be telling me (and you, but to a lesser degree) how to live and what to believe and will be in their legal rights to enforce it.

Theocracies simply do not work.

Tell me once again why secular people are against my homeschooling my children.

Or why my children shouldn't be homeschooled, even though they are in the top 1 percent of the state's standardized tests.

Secular people can fuck with your life and they don't even need a reason to do so.

Check where I'm from. Oklahoma City should worry a lot more about our homegrown terrorists. McVeigh and Nicols were right wing militia nuts. Very Christian. The Christian fundies are the ones trying to take control of my government. They are the ones I'm in danger of losing rights because of. They are the ones fucking with my schools, my government funds, and my freedom. If I weren't more woorried about them, I'd be the one with my head in the sand. You are either a Christian fundie, incredibly vunerable to media propoganda, or not too bright.

I've heard this pathetic argument many times. McVeigh was not a Christian by any means. He was a very disturbed young veteran suffering from PTSD. A true Christian could not carry out a terrorist attack. Therefore, calling the nuts on the far right who organize domestic terrorism "Christian Fundies" is hijacking Christ's name and placing it on a group which he would not approve of.

For any of you who are somehow still under the impression that McVeigh acted in the name of God, note that his last act before execution was to read Invictus, a HUMANISTIC ATHEIST declaration of autonomous rule over one's own soul.

Yes, of course. Just look at the giraffe.
Haha!
Ghandi's fate is unknown to mortal men, but Qur'an does make it clear that Hell is reserved for the apostate and the evil. Ghandi, I imagine, would at least be in the cheap seats in Paradise.
Since there are 7 layers of Paradise, I'd think that he'd be in the 1st layer (the lowest).

Therefore, calling the nuts on the far right who organize domestic terrorism "Christian Fundies" is hijacking Christ's name and placing it on a group which he would not approve of.


Yet it's ok to call Osama bin Laden a Muslim?

That which harms others, if there is a way to avoid it without undue harm to oneself. While there are always individual cases that bear consideration, it's a very good general rule. Why do people think that one can't have ethics or morals without believing in the supernatural?
It's not about having ethics or morals. It's just that "evil" is a religious term, come to our modern English from the religion, hence I was curious (evil in the religious context being the actions associated with the one who opposes the good god).

I'm a Christian Fundamentalist (ex-Jew) and I'm not trying to take control of the government, taking your rights, fucking with "your" schools, "your" government funds, or your freedom.

I'm also not very vulnerable to media propaganda.

Like you, I want to be left alone - I don't want anyone trying to tell me how to live or what to believe.

Good. You make me very happy. But a lot of them are. And they're the ones I'm worried about.

It's not about having ethics or morals. It's just that "evil" is a religious term, come to our modern English from the religion, hence I was curious (evil in the religious context being the actions associated with the one who opposes the good god).

Oh I dunno ... evil seems to be quite secular in its meanings ...

e·vil [Middle English, from Old English yfel.]
adj.
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
n.
1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.


Religion doesn't have a lock on morality.

Does having a Muslim name matter?

It's not about having ethics or morals. It's just that "evil" is a religious term, come to our modern English from the religion, hence I was curious (evil in the religious context being the actions associated with the one who opposes the good god).

Main Entry: 1evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, British often and US also 'E-(")vil
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): evil·er or evil·ler; evil·est or evil·lest
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a man of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor> c : DISAGREEABLE <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY
- evil adverb, archaic
- evil·ly /-(l)E/ adverb
- evil·ness /-n&s/ noun

In this case I use it in #3's sense.

First off, I'd like to congratulate Keruvalia on making a really great post that truly defines what Islam is. Mubarak! Jazak Allah khair.

Does having a Muslim name matter?

It shouldn't matter. My name is Elizabeth Maghakian (Armenian/Syrian) yet I'm a Muslim. I guess it would be better if I did have a Muslim name but I doubt it's an actual requirement.

Oh I dunno ... evil seems to be quite secular in its meanings ...

e·vil [Middle English, from Old English yfel.]
adj.
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
n.
1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.
Most of which (excluding the #3's) are just synonyms for "bad". In other words, the secular evil is just a word for "very naughty"; it only gains significance as something to battle against, as the gods do, or to "denounce, in whatever form", if it has religious context.

"Begone very naughty person! I denounce you!" :)

All religions have extremists , not just muslims. Think before posting something like that. :headbang:
Extremists in other religions? Never! Christianity certainly doesn't have extremists. I mean there has never been any psychos claiming to be Christians doing anything that might lead to a media frenzy in, oh say Waco.... :p
I find this thread to be the best example of a true Muslim and proves the points I have continually tried to make against ignorant dumbasses that think terrorist are Muslim and represent the Muslim community. I will make the point that there are those in the Muslim community that believe that Jesus was a prophet as well and he came after Mohammed (or Muhammed).

I will make the point that there are those in the Muslim community that believe that Jesus was a prophet as well and he came after Mohammed (or Muhammed).

A basic Islamic belief is that Prophet Isa (Jesus) P.B.U.H. is one of Allah's greatest prophet and one day he will be sent back to Earth to strike down the Antichrist. The main difference between Christianity and Islam is that Muslims believe that Jesus was not the Son of God because Allah has no equal. There is no son, daughter, wife, husband, of Allah. Also the Qur'an states that Jesus never died. Instead of being crucified, God lifted his soul into Paradise where he would be alive and safe and he would be sent back down to Earth again one day.

Yet it's ok to call Osama bin Laden a Muslim?
Osama is Muslim like Mcveigh and the others are Christian, your exact point... Osama was motivated by greed and hatred of the world he saw as denying him his rightful position, having been austracized from his family and the Muslim community. He believed that he should be the unquestioned leader of both. Basically a god-complex.

Could one of these muslim scholars explain why the Koran explicitly commands, "Make constant war with your enemy the Jew"? I've heard that scripture, not sure where to find it - but then there's this one:

"Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christian and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But, if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful" (Sarat At-Taubah 9:5).

I just need an explanation. I would hate to be in Church on Sunday and get massacred because a muslim is doing what his god commands.

Okay, Keru. has done a fabulous job with this thread. His ideas are a bit liberal, but then again, he did the right thing. He chose the path of Ijtihad, and he studied every area of the relgion before forming his own opinions.

Now, to clarify a few points. Bear in mind that I come from Bahrain, an island between Saudi Arabia and Iran.. (yeah..)

Pre-maritital sex is out of the question. In fact in some cultures if the groom doesnt show blood after there first night. The marriage can be nullified. The woman can be an outcast in her own society. Niger for example had a case a couple of years ago. The woman had a baby out of wedlock. They were going to kill her for it. Wasnt until European and American politicians and womens groups stepped in did they stop it. Eventually I believe she was granted asylum in the US. Now this is the extreme side of it. Even in progressive muslim countries its still a big problem for women to have a child out of wedlock. In Morocco I saw areas where there were single women with kids shanty towns. This is where women would go if they had this happen to them. There families throw them out. They have no other place to go than these places. Turkey however is just a bit different. Although I have only been to Istanbul and Ankara. So my interaction was limited.

Well, yes.. Premarital sex is out of the question. It is one of the least grey areas of the religion. There are the Kaba'ir in Islam. These are the cardinal sins, basically. They include: Kufr, Murder, Theft, Adultery, and a few others. So it is a big thing..

Dont forget to add that divorce in many muslim countries can only be initiated by the man. It is extremely difficult for a woman to get a divorce in alot of muslim countries. In my opinion they can say what they want. Women on the whole are not treated equally. This has been my experience travelling and talking with peoples of these countries.

INCORRECT. A marriage can be declared void BY EITHER PARTIES. All the man, or the woman, have to do is say: "I divorce you" to their spouse three times in public (i.e. with witnesses present). Pre-Muslim Arabia portrayed women as either sex slaves or objects to be owned. Unfortunately, old habits die hard, and the tradition has not been eradicated from Arabia completely even after Islam's arrival. Thus, cultures today perceive women as unequal to men, which is quite unfortunate. Doesn't mean it's something advocated by Islam. Islam opposed it completely. The prophet, peace be upon him, said in his last sermon: O, people! You all come from Adam, and Adam was created from sand. There is no difference between an Arab and a non-Arab.

Notice the lack of quotation marks. I am translating, not quoting.

Listen fool. I probably know a hell of alot more than you do. If you want to discuss this in Arabic lets go. So maybe you need to get off your high horse and allow some other opinion on muslims. I have travelled and lived in Morocco. Married to a muslim and half my family is muslim. So I do have some authority in the fact.

Islam can be clarified MUCH better through Arabic, because the Arabic text of the Qur'an can NEVER be interpreted in more than one way. It is much clearer than the vague English text. That's why Muslims are encouraged to learn Arabic, because it adds an entirely new dimension to their faith when they read the original text of the Qur'an. I speak Arabic. Want a debate? Bring it on.

Islam is a the sum of the whole of its followers. Same with Christiananity and Judaism.

Islam is the Shahadah, the Salat, the Zakat, the Hajj, and the Fasting. Islam is the absolute faith in Allah, in his prophets, in his divine books, in the Day of Judgement, in fate, and in Allah's angels.

Islam is not the sum of the whole of its followers.

hal tatakalamou alaarabia?

ana a3rifou ba3da alaarabia ida aradta moumkin natakalm mafi mouchkila

How nice! Arabic 1337 speak! :D

Oooooowwww! My Wossname! Owowowowow!

If you are born into a Muslim family, you are encouraged to circumsize your child's penis. If you convert to Islam, and believe that circumsizion will hurt you, you are NOT obligated to do it.

I have 1 question though. As someone who abandoned my religion because my lack of belief in heaven or hell, what is the Muslim view on Heaven and Hell?

Heaven and hell exist. The first place where a mortal comes into contact with these two settings is in his grave. If he is a well-doer, then his grave will expand, and Allah will make his grave like "a plot from Heaven". When the Day of Judgement arrives, he will be ressurected. And he will not feel that any time had passed since his death. It's like he took a nap.

If he is a non-believer, his grave will contract until his ribs overlap each other, and his grave will be like a "pit from Hell".

Can I prove this? No. I guess each and every one of us can wait a few more years, or a few more decades to see for himself. Hell, he may only have to wait a few seconds before death is upon him. Who knows? :) Personally, I am prepared.


You mean Khayen or khaen. Perhaps you have mispelled the word for infidel?


KHAYEN = Traitor, not infidel. That's one of the most common words in the Arabic language. It is very unsettling that you, a person with "experience", can get that wrong.

The arabic word for infidel is KAFFIR.

Would someone like Ghandi, a very peaceful man but not Islamic.. get into heaven or at least live in the ghettos of heaven?

In times of crisis, a person goes back to his roots. A person finds Allah. He may have found Allah in the split-second before his death. He might have embraced Islam, a relgion that fascinated him throughout his life. If he did that, he would be considered a Muslim, even a "Shaheed", or Martyr, and he would go to heaven.

In Islam, you can repent until the moment your soul reaches your throat (on its way out of your body). After that happens, you are bound for either eternity in heaven, or eternity in hell, and Allah knows best.

It started in Arabia as a multi-thestic religion. With Allah just as a God over the other gods.

Where the hell is that head-bang emoticon?

That's just stupid. You need to learn some history. The supreme Gods of poly-theist Arabia where HUBAL and ALLAT.

ALLAH is the Arabic word for GOD. They would NOT name any of their Gods ALLAH. They relate them to natural phenomena. It's like having two supreme Gods in America, and calling one "The God of the Sun" and the other "God"

It just doesn't make sense. You need to relate it to something. And ALLAT was the good of fertility, I think.

tape worms

Yeah... ^^... Pork can contain tape worms, and it is a generally-filthy creature. It is not permitted for reasons related to health.

I read somewhere (Internet again), that Mohammed (Spelling?) was very very against polythestic religious beliefs, and that Islam itself is pretty much anti-polytheism (Just as people believe it's anti-Jewish).
I'm aware that one of the big things to Islam is "There is no god but Allah", but does that mean us loveable polytheists are in any way looked down upon and/or persecuted according to the religion?

Islam is against polytheism, yes. In the political scheme of things, the Muslims get to pay a certain tax for the "Bait Al Mall", or Muslim Central Bank. Jews and Christians get to interact with every facet of life in the state for a similar tax, this one levied on them not to ensure government revenue only, but as a "religious tax". Polytheists have no "special favors", but I honestly don't know the Shari'a Law dealing with Polytheists in peace-time.


"Kill heathen religions off. Repent sins. Say words. Rinse. Repeat." Look at the Battle of Badr. Battle for conversion really.

Go read some history. History that is not written by Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell. Then come back here. Thank you, better luck next time.

b. If so.. why ? Basic biology shows a virgin woman does not have to bleed the first time. Chances are in fact quite high she won't if she has for instance participated in sports, used tampons, or was simply born without a hymen. Nor does normal penis-in-vagina sexual intercourse have to "puncture" a hymen - so even if it is intact it means nothing (even ignoring the fact that the woman could have been having anal/oral sex).

Exactly, that's why that quote was nonsense. How about divorced/widowed women? Obviously they do not bleed, does that mean they can't remarry? Of course not.

Now, I've read some stuff around the internet regarding Islam on some stuff. And I remember seeing that Muslims can not date, is this true?
I also remember seeing that a Muslim man may marry a non-Muslim woman, as long as the woman agrees that the kids be raised on the Qur'an. But a Muslim woman may not, under any circumstance, marry a non-Muslim man.. Is this true? And could you give me an idea why?
What is Islams teachings on inter-gender relationships? I mean the freindship kind, not the sex kind.

If dating happens in a public place, with the intention of marriage, getting engaged (basically knowing more about the person), then it's fine. Otherwise, it's forbidden. Sex is a big no-no.

A Muslim woman can not marry a non-Muslim man, unless he converts first. Islam is big on the whole idea of "father-child relationship" and how the father sets the example for the child. The children will not be raised in a Muslim setting unless the father also converts, or at least agrees that his kids be Muslim. Even then, who knows whether he's trustworthy? He may be making an empty promise. I guess that's the rationale behind it.

The genders are taught that they are equal, discrimination based on sex should be wiped out early on in educational institutions (not the case in the current Arab World.. too much discrimination and male superiority now, as well as religious fundies). In Islamic Studies books, there are always drawings of a Muslim boy and a Muslim girl praying on rugs side-by-side, talking to each other, playing with each other, reading the Qur'an together.

Hopes that clears up some questions. Feel free to post more.

Nice one Greenmanbry

Does having a Muslim name matter?

Not really. Some converts choose (or have chosen for them) an Arabic name to reflect their new life as a Muslim and casting out their old life. I chose the name Humam Abdul-Sala'am (courageous servant of the peace) because it reflects who I am and what I believe. I also have a Jewish name and a Caddo name and a birth name. It's a lot of names, but each are used under varying circumstances and each are legally my name.

It's not required, though.

Could one of these muslim scholars explain why the Koran explicitly commands, "Make constant war with your enemy the Jew"? I've heard that scripture, not sure where to find it - but then there's this one:

"Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christian and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But, if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful" (Sarat At-Taubah 9:5).

I just need an explanation. I would hate to be in Church on Sunday and get massacred because a muslim is doing what his god commands.

YAY! The most mis-interpreted passage in the Holy Book! :D

I just LOVE debating this one..

Did you, by any chance, read Taubah 9:4 through Taubah 9:6, and did you examine the historical context behind that revalation?

Didn't think so.. :p

I'll write the actual passage properly:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful" (9:3)

Now I'll write 9-4 to 9-6. Read the whole thing:

"Excepting those of the idolaters with whome ye Muslims have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto him).

Then, when the sacred months (terms of the treaty) have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah; and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not." (9:4-9:6)

It was said during "Sulh Al-Hudaybeyah", the peace treaty between Medina and Mecca. God told the Prophet to accept the treaty since the Muslims were relatively weak still (although they beat the Meccans in Badr with an army of 300 against an army of 1000). The Meccans started terrorizing Arab merchants and violating other clauses of the treaty, and Muhammad decided that Mecca was to be captured by the Muslims.


As for the people who have questions, don't be afraid to ask. The prophet peace be upon him noticed a large group of women too embarrassed to ask him questions about the female body, the menstrual cycle, etc. in his majlis, since there were many males around. So he asked the males to get out, and told the females to not be embarrassed. For no question in religion must cause embarrassment.

Greenmanbry

So....establish a treaty with the dirty Christians, honor the treaty and be friendly with them until the terms of the treaty are expired. Then slaughter the nasty idol worshipping Christian swine, unless they reject Christ and cling to allah for mercy when the sword is at their throat. Is that about it? I don't see where I misinterpreted anything.

Could one of these muslim scholars explain why the Koran explicitly commands, "Make constant war with your enemy the Jew"? I've heard that scripture, not sure where to find it - but then there's this one:

"Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christian and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But, if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful" (Sarat At-Taubah 9:5).


First of all, read ayyats 1-12 and take the quote in context, rather than on its own. Qur'an is a whole, not the sum of its parts.

Second, it's "Surah al Tawbah 5" or "Qur'an 9:5". That would be the appropriate way to reference it.

Third, it doesn't say anything about Jews or Christians or non-Muslims, it says "the Pagans" and that doesn't mean Wiccans or other polytheists, it's specifically speaking about the Arabic Pagans who declared war on Islam.

I don't know where you got that translation, but it is extremely wrong.

Greenmanbry

So....establish a treaty with the dirty Christians, honor the treaty and be friendly with them until the terms of the treaty are expired. Then slaughter the nasty idol worshipping Christian swine, unless they reject Christ and cling to allah for mercy when the sword is at their throat. Is that about it? I don't see where I misinterpreted anything.

Christians aren't idolists... we worship the same God unless you mean Jesus. Why would you want to reject Christ? Christ is a big part of Islam too.

Greenmanbry

So....establish a treaty with the dirty Christians

Who said anything about Christians?

Qur'an has several referrences on how Muslims are to treat Christians and Jews with respect. They are called "The People of the Book" in Qur'an and never once referred to as "infidels" or "idolators" or "Pagans".

Never once.

Qur'an has several referrences on how Muslims are to treat Christians and Jews with respect. They are called "The People of the Book" in Qur'an and never once referred to as "infidels" or "idolators" or "Pagans".

Why are Christians and Jews referred to as "The People of the Book"? Is (the) Qur'an not a book as well, or does this have to do with the perception of (the) Qur'an as a holy object and perhaps "higher" than any book could be?

Greenmanbry

So....establish a treaty with the dirty Christians, honor the treaty and be friendly with them until the terms of the treaty are expired. Then slaughter the nasty idol worshipping Christian swine, unless they reject Christ and cling to allah for mercy when the sword is at their throat. Is that about it? I don't see where I misinterpreted anything.


I think you need to rethink your ideas there.
Every Muslim who's responded to my really weird questions so far has been overwhelmingly nice, despite the fact that I'm a polytheist.
In fact, every Muslim I've ever interacted with has been very nice to me, despite this fact. And with alot of Muslims at my University, I'd have though someone would have at least tried to beat me up after dark or something.. according to the ideas you present.

First off, I'd like to congratulate Keruvalia on making a really great post that truly defines what Islam is. Mubarak! Jazak Allah khair.

Allah has been kind enough to grant me understanding beyond my own line of sight. Insha'Allah, I will be able to find the right words when speaking of Islam.

It shouldn't matter. My name is Elizabeth Maghakian (Armenian/Syrian) yet I'm a Muslim. I guess it would be better if I did have a Muslim name but I doubt it's an actual requirement.

A pleasure to meet you, by the way. :)

I think you need to rethink your ideas there.
Every Muslim who's responded to my really weird questions so far has been overwhelmingly nice, despite the fact that I'm a polytheist.
In fact, every Muslim I've ever interacted with has been very nice to me, despite this fact. And with alot of Muslims at my University, I'd have though someone would have at least tried to beat me up after dark or something.. according to the ideas you present.

Maybe you're really big and scary - or they left their C4 vest at home, who knows?

Why are Christians and Jews referred to as "The People of the Book"? Is (the) Qur'an not a book as well, or does this have to do with the perception of (the) Qur'an as a holy object and perhaps "higher" than any book could be?

Christians, Jews, and Muslims all are founded on the same basis. One God. If you're not familiar with the saying "People of the Book" then you might be familiar with the Abrahamic Religions.

An Abrahamic religion (also referred to as desert monotheism) is any religion derived from an ancient Semitic tradition attributed to Abraham, a great patriarch described in the Torah, the Bible and the Qur'an. This group of largely monotheistic religions, which includes Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, comprises about half of the world's religious adherents. Muslims refer to adherents of most Abrahamic religions as People of the Book, "the Book" symbolizing divine scripture, such as the Bible and Torah.

Maybe you're really big and scary - or they left their C4 vest at home, who knows?

5 foot 10, 135 lbs. Big and scary would be the guys who I talk to, pass in the halls, and generally interact for everything.

A pleasure to meet you, by the way. :)

Likewise. :)

Why are Christians and Jews referred to as "The People of the Book"? Is (the) Qur'an not a book as well, or does this have to do with the perception of (the) Qur'an as a holy object and perhaps "higher" than any book could be?

I believe "the Book" in question is Torah, Allah's first written gift to mankind. All of the Prophets from Moses to Isa(Jesus) were born and raised on the traditions of Torah. By the time Muhammed(pbuh) came around, Torah had been so altered and corrupted by the greed of men - such as by the placing of Nevi'im and Kethuvim on an equal footing with Torah and by also placing the letters(epistles) of people like Paul of Tarsus on an equal setting with Isa's teachings, that it came time for the message to be re-purified.

That repurification is Qur'an.

Torah, in its uncorrupted form, is still just as valid and is, in fact, reiterated in Qur'an. Islam is not a new religion, but a continuation of that which Allah has revealed to mankind since Adam.

As for placing Qur'an higher, most of us to hold a reverence to the text itself. It is perfection. We do not place Qur'an at our feet or on the floor and we do not place objects on top of it or write within its pages. We do not read it on the toilet or in the bath and we wrap it in a cloth when not in use to protect it from harm. This is done out of reverence, not worship, by the way.

Here's a relevant question:

How horny do you have to be to bomb a busy market full of women and children to get to have 72 virgins? I mean, 72 virgins is a nice thought, but a rather gruesome way to get to them, huh?

Maybe you're really big and scary - or they left their C4 vest at home, who knows?

Okie ... you're clearly just here to troll. Please find another thread to troll.

Okie ... you're clearly just here to troll. Please find another thread to troll.

I just want some justification and clarification as to what is called "Islamic fundamentalism". Why in the world did murderers decide to conduct their twisted affairs in the name of Islam? How does allah feel about OBL, Zarquawi, and the boys?

Here's a relevant question:

How horny do you have to be to bomb a busy market full of women and children to get to have 72 virgins? I mean, 72 virgins is a nice thought, but a rather gruesome way to get to them, huh?

This question has already been addressed. There is nothing in Qur'an that grants 72 virgins to anybody and it also clearly states that women, children, land, and trees are not to be harmed during a time of war.

It also clearly states that suicide is a sin - even if it's suicide in the name of Allah. Muslim suicide bombers have rejected Allah by their very action and have no place in Paradise.

Women are absolutely equal to men in Islam.

Sure they are. This is a women who follows the "Rules for Women" in Islam. She can't really interact with males. Not even a handshake is allowed. I live in Saudi Arabia. My mom can't drive. Why? She's a women. My mom can't work. Why? She's a women. My mom can't go outside the house without being accompanied by my dad. Why? Because she's a women and she lives in a country whos' constituion is the holy book of Islam.

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/252/3256/320/wow.jpg

My blog has the truth about the dark side of the Islam and many secrets Saudi Arabia's continued violation of human rights. http://sam33r.blogspot.com (I don't mean to advertise -- just something you'd like to read)

Why in the world did murderers decide to conduct their twisted affairs in the name of Islam?

Some have chosen to do it in the name of Islam, some have chosen to do it in the name of Jesus, some have chosen to do it in the name of the "Great Twinklebunny in the Sky".

The Son of Sam murdered because a dog told him to.

Just because something is done in the name of Islam doesn't mean it is proper Islamic behavior.

This question has already been addressed. There is nothing in Qur'an that grants 72 virgins to anybody and it also clearly states that women, children, land, and trees are not to be harmed during a time of war.

It also clearly states that suicide is a sin - even if it's suicide in the name of Allah. Muslim suicide bombers have rejected Allah by their very action and have no place in Paradise.

I would love to take this at face value - but it is difficult. Its like someone working for the Red Cross and wearing their uniform while proudly causing death and destruction in the name of the Red Cross. It doesn't make sense. What passages in the Koran do they cite to justify their actions?

My mom can't work. Why? Because she's a women and she lives in a country whos' constituion is the holy book of Islam.

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/252/3256/320/wow.jpg


You say women can't work in Saudi and you put up a picture of a woman working? Not a very good argument for your case.

Anyway, this is the Saudi Constituion:

http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/sa00000_.html

If Qur'an was the whole of the Saudi Constitution, then Articles 2-83 would not be in there.

The Saudi government is, in fact, corrupt. However, the fact that the woman's face is covered shows nothing. Qur'an asks men and women to cover their hair, but leave the faces open. Men wear hijab as well as women, though a man's beard is part of his hijab.

What passages in the Koran do they cite to justify their actions?

I don't know ... ask them. I ignore bin Laden as readily as I ignore Jerry Falwell.

From what I've seen, though, I have never once heard bin Laden quoting Qur'an at all. I'm sure transcripts of his speeches are just a Google away.

Better a Muslim than a Calvinist, I always say.

I believe "the Book" in question is Torah, Allah's first written gift to mankind. All of the Prophets from Moses to Isa(Jesus) were born and raised on the traditions of Torah. By the time Muhammed(pbuh) came around, Torah had been so altered and corrupted by the greed of men - such as by the placing of Nevi'im and Kethuvim on an equal footing with Torah and by also placing the letters(epistles) of people like Paul of Tarsus on an equal setting with Isa's teachings, that it came time for the message to be re-purified.

That repurification is Qur'an.

Torah, in its uncorrupted form, is still just as valid and is, in fact, reiterated in Qur'an. Islam is not a new religion, but a continuation of that which Allah has revealed to mankind since Adam.

As for placing Qur'an higher, most of us to hold a reverence to the text itself. It is perfection. We do not place Qur'an at our feet or on the floor and we do not place objects on top of it or write within its pages. We do not read it on the toilet or in the bath and we wrap it in a cloth when not in use to protect it from harm. This is done out of reverence, not worship, by the way.

I didn't know that Muslims knew about Neviim and Kethuvim. I am not Jewish, Muslim, or Christian (used to be Christian, and almost became Jewish), but I would agree that Moses never would have accepted the History, Poetry, or Prophets as equal to the Law. The Sadduccees understood that much, which is why they are portrayed in a negative light by Christians wishing to twist the Prophets into predicting the Christian theological claims. This is their way around the inconvenient teachings of the Torah (the unalterability of the Law, for example).

Keru, read this and let me know if any part of it is from the Koran.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html

Also this one: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

You say women can't work in Saudi and you put up a picture of a woman working? Not a very good argument for your case.

Anyway, this is the Saudi Constituion:

http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/sa00000_.html

If Qur'an was the whole of the Saudi Constitution, then Articles 2-83 would not be in there.

The Saudi government is, in fact, corrupt. However, the fact that the woman's face is covered shows nothing. Qur'an asks men and women to cover their hair, but leave the faces open. Men wear hijab as well as women, though a man's beard is part of his hijab.

That women is probably in some other country in the middle east. I repeat, Saudi Arabia DOES NOT allow women to work anywhere except as a:

- Nurse
- Flight Attendant
- Teacher

And then there are so many other restrictions on women, which are based on Islam and have nothing to do with the corrupt Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Islam preaches violance and hatred towards non-Muslims. Let's see a LITTLE bit of "contributions" of the "peaceful" religion Islam to this world so far:

- The hostage-takers of children in Beslan, North Ossetia, were Muslims.
- The other hostage-takers and subsequent murderers of the Nepalese chefs and workers in Iraq were also Muslims.
- Those involved in rape and murder in Darfur, Sudan, are Muslims, with other Muslims chosen to be their victims.
- Those responsible for the attacks on residential towers in Riyadh and Khobar
were Muslims.
- The two women who crashed two airliners last year were also
Muslims.
- Osama bin Laden is a Muslim.
- The majority of those who manned the
suicide bombings against buses, vehicles, schools, houses and buildings, all
over the world, were Muslim.
- Nick Berg was beheaded by a Muslim. Right from the adams apple back to the spline with a small knife.
- Margaret Hassan, innocent lady, working for CARE international, shot in the head by a Muslim.
- Daniel Pearl was shot in the chest and then his dead body was beheaded by a Muslim.
- A CIA agent was beheaded by a Muslim.
- Iraqi Translator was beheaded by a Muslim.
- 3,000 people killed on Sept by Muslims. Palestinians danced and celebrated on the streets.
- Everday, 10 people die in Israel / Palestine, another 20 die in Fallujah / Any place in Iraq, another 10-20 in Kashmir, India due to suicide bombings manned by guess who? Muslims.
- Iraqi people burnt westerners and hanged thier burnt, dismembered bodys and little kids posed in front of cameras showing victory signs.

Oh, I'd go on forever. These are just a "little" contributions to the world by the peaceful religion Islam. Wow. That's peaceful. Muslims: Stop the violence. Or get ready to start hearing about more Abu-Ghraibs everyday. One day will come when the whole world will be absolutely SICK of you and your criminal acts. You will be genocided. Makkah and Medina will become the next Hiroshima and Nagasaki IF you don't STOP the VIOLENCE. I know not ALL Muslims are exremists, but ALL MUSLIMS SUPPORT EXTREMISTS AND THEIR CRIMINAL IDEAS. The only difference is that they just don't practise it - but they encourage and support extremism. Your reputation has been totally destroyed and is going downhill everday because of your so-called heros Osama Bin Bastardo and Al-Zarqablablawi and the like.

See the light - or get ready for this: ( :( = Innocent, peaceful Muslim people)

:( :sniper:

Remember: You cannot fight fire with love. You'll get a bigger burn instead.

A quick tutorial on what happens, what it's like, and what to expect. (Something I'm developing for a website and would like a little feedback from NS folks):

Note: I have used the term "brothers" not due to Islam being a men's club, but because this is written from a male perspective.

Step 1: Read Qur'an.

This sort of speaks for itself. Qur'an is the Muslim Holy Book and is not something to be taken lightly. I often suggest to people who have an interest in Islam to spend at least one day per week at a local Mosque, speaking with the brothers or sisters about Qur'an and ask lots and lots of questions. You'll get a variety of opinions, but it will give you the tools you need to formulate your own. You do not have to agree with Qur'an 100% right off the bat in order to become Muslim. A typical conversation I would have with some of the elder brothers in the Mosque while I was learning about Qur'an went like this:

Brother: Do you know Qur'an?
Me: I know a little.
Brother: Then you know more than me.

Islam is a constant learning process that begins with the decision to learn and doesn't end until death - and, even then, it may continue.

Step 2: Ask yourself why.

If you can't answer this question, I would suggest trying something else. Becoming Muslim is much more than just changing religions, it is a responsibility. Responsibility to your brothers and sisters in Islam, responsibility to your own family, responsibility to yourself, responsibility to the global Muslim community, and responsibility to Allah. There are great benefits to being Muslim, but if you are only seeking rewards, then you must re-examine your decision. When I went to Mosque and began learning Qur'an, I was often asked why I was there. My answer, unwaiveringly, was "God has brought me here." A true answer, to be sure, and the most recent chapter in a story I shall tell at another time, but if you do not know in your heart that Islam is right for you, then wait. Do not be hastey in your decision and nobody will force you to hurry up and decide.

Step 3: Shahadah

Once you've made up your mind, then you should ask the brothers to help you declare Shahadah. Full Shahadah is "Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu". It is said in front of the brothers, usually three times, often in both Arabic and English. You have born witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammed was the last Prophet. You are now Muslim.

Prepare to be overwhelmed. Every brother will walk up to you, embrace you, shake your hand, welcome you with smiles, and many will give you their business cards with their home phone numbers on it in case you need anything.

But it doesn't end there. Just declaring Shahadah is not the only obligation to Islam. Islam has 5 pillars and Shahadah is only the first of them.

Step 4: Learn Salat

Muslims pray in a specific way as commanded in Qur'an. You may speak to Allah at any time of the day or night, but there are five times set aside where you should pray alongside the brothers at the Mosque every day. In non-Islamic countries, our work schedules often do not permit us to run off to Mosque, but many workplaces do not mind if you take a little personal time. Salat does not take long and perhaps there are other Muslim brothers in your place of work who wouldn't mind joining you. You can purchase beautiful prayer mats from any Dawa Center very inexpensively. If it is impossible, do not despair, for Allah knows of your desire to pray, but also sees that you are not permitted.

Friday is essential, however, and you should do whatever you can to make sure you're off work on Fridays. I know that it is not always possible, but so does Allah, and put your trust in Him that he will find a way.

On a side note, you must also learn how to perform the ritual cleansing and the rules behind modesty during wudu and even some new rules concerning going to the toilet! Hint: Muslim men sit down to urinate. I'll let you discover for yourself why.

Salat is a bit of a mystery to non-Muslims. Most of their impression is just a single position of the Salat - the one where the forehead is on the ground - but Salat is a stylized ritual where shahadah is declared, Allah is called upon to help the world, surah (chapters) of Qur'an are read, and peace and mercy among the brothers is the theme. Muslims stand shoulder to shoulder when they pray, casting their eyes down towards the spot where their forehead will touch, and they face east, towards the Kabah in Makka.

Some differences from what you may be used to in the West:

1] Mosques are not segregated. Black, White, Asian, Arab, and all manner of races stand side by side without apprehension. Once you become Muslim, that is all that matters. Your ethnicity is just a matter of conversation.

2] Except for the elderly or those who cannot easily get up and down on their knees, there are no chairs in a Mosque. Those familiar rows of pews do not exist in Mosque. We sit on the floor to listen to the Imam or to have conversation. There are always brothers at the Mosque, lounging about, reading Qur'an, discussing politics, exchanging information, laughing, talking, and enjoying each others company in the most comfortable place in the world: the house of our Lord.

3] All thanks and praise are given to Allah and only to Allah. Muslims do not applaud, but rather acknowledge that Allah has willed great talent upon a person. Some outsiders consider us rude because we don't generally say "Thank you" when given a gift, but rather something to the effect of "Allah has blessed you with generosity." Conversely, thanking a Muslim doesn't get you very far except a response of something to the effect of, "Allah willing, I shall be a better person tomorrow." Often, from what I've seen, a Muslim will put their hand to their heart and give a slight bow when given a gift and nothing will be said at all.

4] Muslims do not wear gold or silk. Many Western churches and synagogues are full of people dressed in their finest. In the Mosque, the men and women are comfortable, wearing simple cotton clothing and modest head coverings. 99% of the brothers are bearded, but some work restrictions force some brothers to be clean shaven. The beard is part of the male hijab (covering) and, while not necessarily a requirement, is a Good Thing(tm).

Step 5: Start saving for Hajj

It may take you ten years to raise the money, but all Muslims who are able-bodied and in no danger are required to make pilgrimage to Makkah once in their lives. You may go as often as you like, of course, but the only requirement is for once. I have not made Hajj yet, myself, but Insha'Allah I will be able to in the next few years.

What I have done is set up a savings account specifically for Hajj which will grow and be invested in various things until the capitol is there. There are Muslim travel agencies everywhere in the world that offer Hajj packages that can save money and help you during the time you spend there. Once you get to Makkah, however, there will be no end to the number of people willing to take you with them and show you what to do.

Also, keep in mind that Hajj is done at a certain time of the year. You can go to Makkah as a Muslim at any time of the year (one of the perks as non-Muslims are not allowed in Makkah), but Hajj is specific.

You may be asking yourself why non-Muslims are not allowed in Makkah. It's a matter of respect. Muslims have learned about the Kabah, what it means, what it is, and we have spent (in some cases whole lifetimes) a long time in our journey to Makkah. Can you imagine trying to pray at the Great Mosque while some Hawaiin shirt wearing tourist with a cooler full of ham sandwiches is taking a picture of his tube-top clad daughter in front of the Kabah?! It would be unthinkable to us.

Step 6: Charity

Give give give. Allah will provide you everything you need. If you have a sturdy roof over your head and running water, then you are already better off than 60% of the world. There are specific requirements for charity outlined in Qur'an and you will learn these as time goes on. You may give as much as you like, of course, but there are minimums based on your income and type of income. Don't worry, though, as nobody but Allah is auditing you. Then again, maybe you should worry. ;)

Step 7: Ramadan

Fast during the day, celebrate at night. That's Ramadan in a nutshell. Different countries celebrate differently, but every Muslim is required to fast and abstain from marital relations, not smoke, and refrain from getting the hair cut, and other things during Ramadan.

Learn from the brothers and from Qur'an that which is required.

Step 8: Qur'anic rules lawyers

Every religion has its adherents who try to find little loopholes in the rules that allow them to slip through the cracks and have a bacon sandwich or a beer. I would advise against this. For every rule in Qur'an, there is a why. There is always a why. Allah has been very good at explaining why He likes things the way He does and we are not to ignore His judgement.

For many rules, the brothers may jokingly chide you a little, but Allah shall judge you. The last thing you want is to be relegated to the cheap seats in Paradise because you didn't make an honest effort to stop smoking cigarettes or had a couple of beers on the weekends because "Qur'an says intoxicants and a couple of beers doesn't get me drunk". Is a cigarette and a beer really worth being in the back row in Paradise?

Even worse, some loopholes could cause you to be declared apostate - such as Osama bin Laden using carefully rearranged passages in Qur'an as justification to slaughter the innocent. Bin Laden is apostate and no Muslim would help him hide and he can never enter the Great Mosque. Unless, of course, he turns himself in, apologizes, reaffirms his faith in Allah, and changes his ways. Salmon Rushdie, a famous apostate, had his fatwah lifted when he returned to Islam. Since Allah is the final judge, your brothers will forgive you if you genuinely seek forgiveness, no matter what you have done.

<closing yet to be written>

Mmkay ... long read ... hope it's informative.

Why would any man want to join a religon with circumcism?

And then there are so many other restrictions on women, which are based on Islam and have nothing to do with the corrupt Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Islam preaches violance and hatred towards non-Muslims. Let's see a LITTLE bit of "contributions" of the "peaceful" religion Islam to this world so far:
<snip>


Keru, shall I enlighten him with the litany of atrocities committed in the name of Christianity? Or should I pick the atrocities committed in the name of a more secular Western system, such as Communism?

Or both? I'm sure the list is longer than anyone realizes.

There are even people who killed for fun and conquest - not out of any religious belief or political belief.

Why would any man want to join a religon with circumcism?

The majority of American males are circumcised at birth, with no regard to their religion.

Jews are circumcised for religious reasons.

Next question?

This topic should be renamed to: "So you want to be a terrorist, eh?"

Easy! here's how:

First read the Kalimah (Surat or something like that) and get circumsized to become a Muslim / Terrorist.

Now go out on the streets.

Find a westerner.

Abduct him, bring him to your house.

Get another terrorist err Muslim friend of yours to hold a camera.

Tell him to start recording.

Take the Holy Koran and read the holy words you're supposed to say before beheading a person..

Now take a small knife and start cutting that westerners throat slowly, and don't forget to say "Allah Huakbar!" (Translation: God Is Great!) while doing it.

There, now dismember his head from the body and pick it up like an Oscar Award and pose for the camera.

Tada! You're a Muslim now.

I'm afraid to break it to you, but not all Muslims are terrorists.

Having been over there and seen them first hand, I can tell you that the vast majority of any group (Arab, Persian, Muslim - Sunni or Shiite) don't want to be terrorists.

They just want to live their lives. Some running water would be nice.

Yes, there are terrorists, and the majority of terrorists today happen to be Islamic. But that does not mean that all Muslims are terrorists.

This topic should be renamed to: "So you want to be a terrorist, eh?"

Easy! here's how:

First read the Kalimah (Surat or something like that) and get circumsized to become a Muslim / Terrorist.

Now go out on the streets.

Find a westerner.

Abduct him, bring him to your house.

Get another terrorist err Muslim friend of yours to hold a camera.

Tell him to start recording.

Take the Holy Koran and read the holy words you're supposed to say before beheading a person..

Now take a small knife and start cutting that westerners throat slowly, and don't forget to say "Allah Huakbar!" (Translation: God Is Great!) while doing it.

There, now dismember his head from the body and pick it up like an Oscar Award and pose for the camera.

Tada! You're a Muslim now.


Troll.. or just plain flaim-baiter.

But to address decapitation..

As an experianced decapitator of mammals, I can assure you that that video was fake. You dispute me all you like for saying this, but I've actually tried, and suceeded, in removing the heads of all manners of mallals, both alive and dead, and the way that went was nothing but fake.

This topic should be renamed to: "So you want to be a terrorist, eh?"

Easy! here's how:

First read the Kalimah (Surat or something like that) and get circumsized to become a Muslim / Terrorist.

Now go out on the streets.

Find a westerner.

Abduct him, bring him to your house.

Get another terrorist err Muslim friend of yours to hold a camera.

Tell him to start recording.

Take the Holy Koran and read the holy words you're supposed to say before beheading a person..

Now take a small knife and start cutting that westerners throat slowly, and don't forget to say "Allah Huakbar!" (Translation: God Is Great!) while doing it.

There, now dismember his head from the body and pick it up like an Oscar Award and pose for the camera.

Tada! You're a Muslim now.

I really don't like ignorant people but all is well when knowing that they'll be dealt with when the time comes unless they change their ways.

Troll.. or just plain flaim-baiter.

But to address decapitation..

As an experianced decapitator of mammals, I can assure you that that video was fake. You dispute me all you like for saying this, but I've actually tried, and suceeded, in removing the heads of all manners of mallals, both alive and dead, and the way that went was nothing but fake.

I watched the video on Al-Jazeera and it seemed a little bit strange to me.

A quick tutorial on what happens, what it's like, and what to expect. (Something I'm developing for a website and would like a little feedback from NS folks):

Note: I have used the term "brothers" not due to Islam being a men's club, but because this is written from a male perspective.

Step 1: Read Qur'an.

This sort of speaks for itself. Qur'an is the Muslim Holy Book and is not something to be taken lightly. I often suggest to people who have an interest in Islam to spend at least one day per week at a local Mosque, speaking with the brothers or sisters about Qur'an and ask lots and lots of questions. You'll get a variety of opinions, but it will give you the tools you need to formulate your own. You do not have to agree with Qur'an 100% right off the bat in order to become Muslim. A typical conversation I would have with some of the elder brothers in the Mosque while I was learning about Qur'an went like this:

Brother: Do you know Qur'an?
Me: I know a little.
Brother: Then you know more than me.

Islam is a constant learning process that begins with the decision to learn and doesn't end until death - and, even then, it may continue.

Step 2: Ask yourself why.

If you can't answer this question, I would suggest trying something else. Becoming Muslim is much more than just changing religions, it is a responsibility. Responsibility to your brothers and sisters in Islam, responsibility to your own family, responsibility to yourself, responsibility to the global Muslim community, and responsibility to Allah. There are great benefits to being Muslim, but if you are only seeking rewards, then you must re-examine your decision. When I went to Mosque and began learning Qur'an, I was often asked why I was there. My answer, unwaiveringly, was "God has brought me here." A true answer, to be sure, and the most recent chapter in a story I shall tell at another time, but if you do not know in your heart that Islam is right for you, then wait. Do not be hastey in your decision and nobody will force you to hurry up and decide.

Step 3: Shahadah

Once you've made up your mind, then you should ask the brothers to help you declare Shahadah. Full Shahadah is "Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu". It is said in front of the brothers, usually three times, often in both Arabic and English. You have born witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammed was the last Prophet. You are now Muslim.

Prepare to be overwhelmed. Every brother will walk up to you, embrace you, shake your hand, welcome you with smiles, and many will give you their business cards with their home phone numbers on it in case you need anything.

But it doesn't end there. Just declaring Shahadah is not the only obligation to Islam. Islam has 5 pillars and Shahadah is only the first of them.

Step 4: Learn Salat

Muslims pray in a specific way as commanded in Qur'an. You may speak to Allah at any time of the day or night, but there are five times set aside where you should pray alongside the brothers at the Mosque every day. In non-Islamic countries, our work schedules often do not permit us to run off to Mosque, but many workplaces do not mind if you take a little personal time. Salat does not take long and perhaps there are other Muslim brothers in your place of work who wouldn't mind joining you. You can purchase beautiful prayer mats from any Dawa Center very inexpensively. If it is impossible, do not despair, for Allah knows of your desire to pray, but also sees that you are not permitted.

Friday is essential, however, and you should do whatever you can to make sure you're off work on Fridays. I know that it is not always possible, but so does Allah, and put your trust in Him that he will find a way.

On a side note, you must also learn how to perform the ritual cleansing and the rules behind modesty during wudu and even some new rules concerning going to the toilet! Hint: Muslim men sit down to urinate. I'll let you discover for yourself why.

Salat is a bit of a mystery to non-Muslims. Most of their impression is just a single position of the Salat - the one where the forehead is on the ground - but Salat is a stylized ritual where shahadah is declared, Allah is called upon to help the world, surah (chapters) of Qur'an are read, and peace and mercy among the brothers is the theme. Muslims stand shoulder to shoulder when they pray, casting their eyes down towards the spot where their forehead will touch, and they face east, towards the Kabah in Makka.

Some differences from what you may be used to in the West:

1] Mosques are not segregated. Black, White, Asian, Arab, and all manner of races stand side by side without apprehension. Once you become Muslim, that is all that matters. Your ethnicity is just a matter of conversation.

2] Except for the elderly or those who cannot easily get up and down on their knees, there are no chairs in a Mosque. Those familiar rows of pews do not exist in Mosque. We sit on the floor to listen to the Imam or to have conversation. There are always brothers at the Mosque, lounging about, reading Qur'an, discussing politics, exchanging information, laughing, talking, and enjoying each others company in the most comfortable place in the world: the house of our Lord.

3] All thanks and praise are given to Allah and only to Allah. Muslims do not applaud, but rather acknowledge that Allah has willed great talent upon a person. Some outsiders consider us rude because we don't generally say "Thank you" when given a gift, but rather something to the effect of "Allah has blessed you with generosity." Conversely, thanking a Muslim doesn't get you very far except a response of something to the effect of, "Allah willing, I shall be a better person tomorrow." Often, from what I've seen, a Muslim will put their hand to their heart and give a slight bow when given a gift and nothing will be said at all.

4] Muslims do not wear gold or silk. Many Western churches and synagogues are full of people dressed in their finest. In the Mosque, the men and women are comfortable, wearing simple cotton clothing and modest head coverings. 99% of the brothers are bearded, but some work restrictions force some brothers to be clean shaven. The beard is part of the male hijab (covering) and, while not necessarily a requirement, is a Good Thing(tm).

Step 5: Start saving for Hajj

It may take you ten years to raise the money, but all Muslims who are able-bodied and in no danger are required to make pilgrimage to Makkah once in their lives. You may go as often as you like, of course, but the only requirement is for once. I have not made Hajj yet, myself, but Insha'Allah I will be able to in the next few years.

What I have done is set up a savings account specifically for Hajj which will grow and be invested in various things until the capitol is there. There are Muslim travel agencies everywhere in the world that offer Hajj packages that can save money and help you during the time you spend there. Once you get to Makkah, however, there will be no end to the number of people willing to take you with them and show you what to do.

Also, keep in mind that Hajj is done at a certain time of the year. You can go to Makkah as a Muslim at any time of the year (one of the perks as non-Muslims are not allowed in Makkah), but Hajj is specific.

You may be asking yourself why non-Muslims are not allowed in Makkah. It's a matter of respect. Muslims have learned about the Kabah, what it means, what it is, and we have spent (in some cases whole lifetimes) a long time in our journey to Makkah. Can you imagine trying to pray at the Great Mosque while some Hawaiin shirt wearing tourist with a cooler full of ham sandwiches is taking a picture of his tube-top clad daughter in front of the Kabah?! It would be unthinkable to us.

Step 6: Charity

Give give give. Allah will provide you everything you need. If you have a sturdy roof over your head and running water, then you are already better off than 60% of the world. There are specific requirements for charity outlined in Qur'an and you will learn these as time goes on. You may give as much as you like, of course, but there are minimums based on your income and type of income. Don't worry, though, as nobody but Allah is auditing you. Then again, maybe you should worry. ;)

Step 7: Ramadan

Fast during the day, celebrate at night. That's Ramadan in a nutshell. Different countries celebrate differently, but every Muslim is required to fast and abstain from marital relations, not smoke, and refrain from getting the hair cut, and other things during Ramadan.

Learn from the brothers and from Qur'an that which is required.

Step 8: Qur'anic rules lawyers

Every religion has its adherents who try to find little loopholes in the rules that allow them to slip through the cracks and have a bacon sandwich or a beer. I would advise against this. For every rule in Qur'an, there is a why. There is always a why. Allah has been very good at explaining why He likes things the way He does and we are not to ignore His judgement.

For many rules, the brothers may jokingly chide you a little, but Allah shall judge you. The last thing you want is to be relegated to the cheap seats in Paradise because you didn't make an honest effort to stop smoking cigarettes or had a couple of beers on the weekends because "Qur'an says intoxicants and a couple of beers doesn't get me drunk". Is a cigarette and a beer really worth being in the back row in Paradise?

Even worse, some loopholes could cause you to be declared apostate - such as Osama bin Laden using carefully rearranged passages in Qur'an as justification to slaughter the innocent. Bin Laden is apostate and no Muslim would help him hide and he can never enter the Great Mosque. Unless, of course, he turns himself in, apologizes, reaffirms his faith in Allah, and changes his ways. Salmon Rushdie, a famous apostate, had his fatwah lifted when he returned to Islam. Since Allah is the final judge, your brothers will forgive you if you genuinely seek forgiveness, no matter what you have done.

<closing yet to be written>

Mmkay ... long read ... hope it's informative.

What guy would ever want to join a religon that has circumcism anyway?

What guy would ever want to join a religon that has circumcism anyway?

It's optional if you convert.

I watched the video on Al-Jazeera and it seemed a little bit strange to me.

I saw it from a video mailed to a freinds house to mess with his neighborhood.
I can assure you that that body was either dead long before the decapitation, or it was a very well made dummy.

So in the process of the barbaric act of beheading someone with a "small knife"... at what point is the person dead?

I would imagine he/she would be dead long before the head became fully separated from the body.

Or at least I would hope so. If anyone knows the timeline of death, i'd appreciate hearing about it.

If we catch any of these bastards, we should break every single bone in each of their bodies and let them rot for the crap that they do. They're the reason we're still there.

What guy would ever want to join a religon that has circumcism anyway?

Don't you ever watch South Park? Circumcision doesn't cut it off, it can make it bigger.

If we catch any of these bastards, we should break every single bone in each of their bodies and let them rot for the crap that they do. They're the reason we're still there.

I find it funny that people claim that Islam is a religion that preaches violence. They get so astonished when they hear someone come up with a flase verse in the Qur'an that's violent whereas people strongly threaten people casually like Fragland did.

So in the process of the barbaric act of beheading someone with a "small knife"... at what point is the person dead?

I would imagine he/she would be dead long before the head became fully separated from the body.

Or at least I would hope so. If anyone knows the timeline of death, i'd appreciate hearing about it.

If we catch any of these bastards, we should break every single bone in each of their bodies and let them rot for the crap that they do. They're the reason we're still there.

Three minutes after blood stops going to the brain. And since some of the blood supply is actually protected by cartelage and bone, you can have a knife 3/4ths of the way through a neck before the blood begins to be completely cut off from the brain. By the time the head is completely removed, the brain is still alive, and assuming the eyes are open ar the time of blood-loss, it can see everything too.
I guess that just adds to the horror, but you will live through the entire decapitation process.

Now I'm done with discussing the removal of heads, no more hijacking the thread for me!
I'll come up with some more weird questions about islam instead!

Now I'm done with discussing the removal of heads, no more hijacking the thread for me!
I'll come up with some more weird questions about islam instead!
It's quite disturbing, so thank you.

See the light - or get ready for this: ( :( = Innocent, peaceful Muslim people)

:( :sniper:

I find that to be a direct threat and stereotyping.

Technically, you're unconscious within 15 seconds of the interruption of blood flow to the brain. Then you die three minutes later.

So, you'll be aware of being separated from your body if they're quick about it.

Then you'll pass out.

Troll.. or just plain flaim-baiter.

But to address decapitation..

As an experianced decapitator of mammals, I can assure you that that video was fake. You dispute me all you like for saying this, but I've actually tried, and suceeded, in removing the heads of all manners of mallals, both alive and dead, and the way that went was nothing but fake.

That's the MOST idiotic thing I've ever ever heard. Over 30 people have been BEHEADED ALIVE ON CAMERA IN IRAQ. They Move, They Scream, They move their body in pain. You call it fake? Well, watch some of these over here: (Watch the nepali one - where he decapicates him and purposley stops in the middle and watch him scream and move in pain)

Links to ogrish.com are BANNED. Link removed by Frisbeeteria (WARNING: EXTREME VIDEOS OF MUSLIMS)

Oh, the list of the videos is quite long huh? Yes. Just watch the Nepali one or the CIA one. Then you'll see for yourself if they're fake or not. I know you're going to be ignorant and say "No I've seen one and I know its fake" -- but you HAVE TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT. And oh, do you know what is the death penalty in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait? Beheading! And what is the punishment for stealing? Amputation of Arms and Legs and stoning. But the government uses special swords for the job - which result in no pain at all. This method was also practiced in many countries in the 18th century. But now has been abolished. Terrorists behead in a completely different way. They use small knifes which take a lot of time to cut. And the victim goes throw an unimaginable amount of pain and suffering. Anyway, a death is a death. And Muslims have contributed nothing but deaths, deaths and more deaths. Muslims believe in Violence. They support extremists, if they arent one themselves. Muslims are the most illitrate, uneducated, poor, left out people in the whole world. I don't have to defend my words because Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said this during a science and technology confrence.

Muslims believe in Violence. They support extremists, if they arent one themselves. Muslims are the most illitrate, uneducated, poor, left out people in the whole world.

What do you know about Muslim beliefs if you aren't one yourself? Go Troll some other thread.

What do you know about Muslim beliefs if you aren't one yourself? Go Troll some other thread.

I live in Saudi Arabia and belong to a Muslim family. I was a Muslim and I had a Koran tutor. I finished reading the Koran 2 times. I've done Hajj 4 times with my family and I never missed one fast in 4 ramadans. Infact, I was even going to do Hifz (memorizing). Later, after extensive researching on the subject wether God actually exists or not, I stopped beliving in god. So you can call me Athiest now. But, I do know a lot about Islam. You must've guessed it after knowing that I've read the Koran twice, along with Hadith and other books. Jihad means to kill, and killing is violence.

Sorry Keruv, I really am.. I just have to attack the ignorant.


That's the MOST idiotic thing I've ever ever heard. Over 30 people have been BEHEADED ALIVE ON CAMERA IN IRAQ. They Move, They Scream, They move their body in pain. You call it fake? Well, watch some of these over here: (Watch the nepali one - where he decapicates him and purposley stops in the middle and watch him scream and move in pain)

http://www.ogrish.com/beheading_videos.html (WARNING: EXTREME VIDEOS OF MUSLIMS)

Oh, the list of the videos is quite long huh? Yes. Just watch the Nepali one or the CIA one. Then you'll see for yourself if they're fake or not. I know you're going to be ignorant and say "No I've seen one and I know its fake" -- but you HAVE TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT. And oh, do you know what is the death penalty in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait? Beheading! And what is the punishment for stealing? Amputation of Arms and Legs and stoning. But the government uses special swords for the job - which result in no pain at all. This method was also practiced in many countries in the 18th century. But now has been abolished. Terrorists behead in a completely different way. They use small knifes which take a lot of time to cut. And the victim goes throw an unimaginable amount of pain and suffering. Anyway, a death is a death. And Muslims have contributed nothing but deaths, deaths and more deaths. Muslims believe in Violence. They support extremists, if they arent one themselves. Muslims are the most illitrate, uneducated, poor, left out people in the whole world. I don't have to defend my words because Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said this during a science and technology confrence.


I've also seen Evil Dead, all the Chuckey movies, the Friday the 13th series, Freddy, Candyman, Dr.Giggles.. and the gods only know how many more.
What's my point?
They're all movies with special effects. It doesn;t take a genius to know how to doctor a movie.

Now, I suggest you either get a medical degree, or go remove the heads of some mammals in various ways with various tools before you come through here calling me a liar about what happens when you decapitate a mammal, when I've done it and you han't.

It's quite disturbing, so thank you.
You're welecome. I alway find it funny when people call me a monster, and then I can turn around and use my experiance and viloent past to actually do something good.

Technically, you're unconscious within 15 seconds of the interruption of blood flow to the brain. Then you die three minutes later.
Yea, but it's aufly hard to actually interupt the bloodflow to the brain in such a short time, especically on bigger mammals like humans, without fully removing the whole head. So generally they stay awake and consious through to the end.
Also, by the time unconciousness kicks in, it doesn't really make much difference, you're still alive and experiancing it.

ALL MUSLIMS SUPPORT EXTREMISTS AND THEIR CRIMINAL IDEAS.

Hrmmm ... an asshole ... how pleasant. I will ask the mods to remove all of his posts from this thread.

Why would any man want to join a religon with circumcism?

Most men are circumsized whether it's done religiously or not. It's up to the parents. Islam doesn't circumsize an adult who converts.

I live in Saudi Arabia and belong to a Muslim family. I was a Muslim and I had a Koran tutor. I finished reading the Koran 2 times. I've done Hajj 4 times with my family and I never missed one fast in 4 ramadans. Infact, I was even going to do Hifz (memorizing). Later, after extensive researching on the subject wether God actually exists or not, I stopped beliving in god. So you can call me Athiest now. But, I do know a lot about Islam. You must've guessed it after knowing that I've read the Koran twice, along with Hadith and other books. Jihad means to kill, and killing is violence.

Jihad is a struggle. Jihad is defending one's own religion when it is in peril. But Jihad does not mean violence. There are other kinds of Jihad. Jihad is when a Muslim has to overcome something that is troubling them like a sex drive or other sudden urges. A Muslim must perform Jihad when one is trying to stop oneself from breaking a fast. Jihad does not mean violence, it means an inner holy struggle.

I'm gonna have to step in and insert a statement. I am not Muslim, yet I am tolerant of all. Attacking a religion on the basis of how it is represented by a minority is ignorance. Everyone has their bad apples and those bad apples are the ones who get their 15 minutes of fame. Learn tolerance and you won't be so bitter.

I'm gonna have to step in and insert a statement. I am not Muslim, yet I am tolerant of all. Attacking a religion on the basis of how it is represented by a minority is ignorance. Everyone has their bad apples and those bad apples are the ones who get their 15 minutes of fame. Learn tolerance and you won't be so bitter.

If you figure that the larger the group, the more bad apples, then figure out what your odds are in a group with a billion members.

It's like finding a bad hamburger at McDonalds. Out of those billions served every day, some of them are just going to make you sick. That doesn't mean that McDonalds is bad.

Precisely

Mmkay ... let's not respond to the troll anymore. I have asked the mods to remove those posts and to say something to him.

Barring that, let's just ignore him and he will eventually get tired of being ignored and move on to other threads.

Sorry Keruv, I really am.. I just have to attack the ignorant.





I've also seen Evil Dead, all the Chuckey movies, the Friday the 13th series, Freddy, Candyman, Dr.Giggles.. and the gods only know how many more.
What's my point?
They're all movies with special effects. It doesn;t take a genius to know how to doctor a movie.

Now, I suggest you either get a medical degree, or go remove the heads of some mammals in various ways with various tools before you come through here calling me a liar about what happens when you decapitate a mammal, when I've done it and you han't.


You're welecome. I alway find it funny when people call me a monster, and then I can turn around and use my experiance and viloent past to actually do something good.


Yea, but it's aufly hard to actually interupt the bloodflow to the brain in such a short time, especically on bigger mammals like humans, without fully removing the whole head. So generally they stay awake and consious through to the end.
Also, by the time unconciousness kicks in, it doesn't really make much difference, you're still alive and experiancing it.

You're calling me ignorant? You are ignorant. You say ALL these videos are fake? Please. Go. And. Watch. For. Yourself.

Now, just watch this one video:
-- It is CRYSTAL CLEAR
-- The victim is not blindfolded - He is on the ground, alive, changing facial expressions and moving his head (making sad faces)
-- The camera is totally zoomed in
-- The knife is inserted STRAIGHT INTO his through. Not accross - STRAIGHT IN -- PUSHED IN -- VERTICALLY.

If you can't watch this from a medical viewpoint, then you'll never find the truth. Please, watch this particular video and you'll know that these arent fake:

Graphic link removed by Frisbeeteria

Keru, I'd be interested to know what brought you to convert?

So how bout them Yankees? :rolleyes:

Now, I suggest you either get a medical degree, or go remove the heads of some mammals in various ways with various tools before you come through here calling me a liar about what happens when you decapitate a mammal, when I've done it and you han't.


You're welecome. I alway find it funny when people call me a monster, and then I can turn around and use my experiance and viloent past to actually do something good.


Yea, but it's aufly hard to actually interupt the bloodflow to the brain in such a short time, especically on bigger mammals like humans, without fully removing the whole head. So generally they stay awake and consious through to the end.
Also, by the time unconciousness kicks in, it doesn't really make much difference, you're still alive and experiancing it.

You are truly a sick bastard. Its people like you that challenge my faith in humanity. Please seek professional psychiatric help immediately. Also, could you spend more time in school learning how to spell, and less time stealing daddy's axe from the shed to cut off the heads of poor defenseless creatures? Myself and the animals would appreciate it - thank you.

I know this is sorta off-topic-ish.
But, does anyone else (Espically the muslims posting here) find that Al-Quaeda rap video that's gone around to be just downright funny?
I really can't take it seriously, and my little brother and I watch it all the time for ammusment.

I appologise if anyone was offended by that.

I know this is sorta off-topic-ish.
But, does anyone else (Espically the muslims posting here) find that Al-Quaeda rap video that's gone around to be just downright funny?
I really can't take it seriously, and my little brother and I watch it all the time for ammusment.

I appologise if anyone was offended by that.

Never seen it, got a link?

You are truly a sick bastard. Its people like you that challenge my faith in humanity. Please seek professional psychiatric help immediately. Also, could you spend more time in school learning how to spell, and less time stealing daddy's axe from the shed to cut off the heads of poor defenseless creatures? Myself and the animals would appreciate it - thank you.
Please refrain from insulting others, as it is against forum rules. The Moderators can deal with people who make repeated infractions.
Then again, I'm not a mod, so you can ignore my friendly reminder if you so choose.
:)

Never seen it, got a link?

I got it off CNN I believe. Shouldn't be hard to find.
"Sheik Terra and the Soul Salla Crew" or something like that are the makers.
I know it's probably offensive, but I really can't take those guys seriously.

Dostanuot Loj: Learn to debate in a proper way. All you do is reply to what people on your side have to say - and you ignore anyone who doesn't agree with you. A fine example would be how you ignored Sloshnia, and me too. Stop being ignorant. Be a good listener. And no, mods won't remove my post from this topic just because I went against your sick, old, violent beliefs.

You may now go and remove the head of another mammal, bastard. :rolleyes:

Here's a video from the region:
http://articles.energyradio.fm/anm/templates/ftf.aspx?articleid=118&zoneid=5

Please refrain from insulting others, as it is against forum rules. The Moderators can deal with people who make repeated infractions.
Then again, I'm not a mod, so you can ignore my friendly reminder if you so choose.
:)

If your job is to run around being a pseudo-mod, and telling people to quit insulting others, you have a lot of work to do in this thread alone. The fact that this guy cuts off Fido's head and can't even spell is an insult, and a severe threat to humanity.

Here's a video from the region:
http://articles.energyradio.fm/anm/templates/ftf.aspx?articleid=118&zoneid=5

That's actually pretty funny...

Dostanuot Loj: Learn to debate in a proper way. All you do is reply to what people on your side have to say - and you ignore anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Mmkay ... let's not respond to the troll anymore.

Need I say more?

Incidently, you do realize that Arabs are a small minority of Muslims, don't you?

If you are an Arab are you Muslim, or are there Christian etc Arab families?

Sorry if that is a stupid question

If you are an Arab are you Muslim, or are there Christian etc Arab families?

Sorry if that is a stupid question

The majority of Arabs are Muslims - yes, there are some Christian Arabs in some countries (Eqypt springs to mind here).

But, the majority of Muslims are not Arabs. Islam is a worldwide religion, and its followers number a bit over 1 billion.

Indonesia, for example, is a largely Muslim nation. And its people are not Arabs.

Arabs are people that live in the Arabian section of Asia/Europe. The middle east if you will. They are not really defined by religion.

This is funny - you have the "peaceful" and "docile" muslims who claim that Islam is the bastion of peace, love, & harmony. Then you have the psychotic, blood-lusting, murderous, illiterate, animal-slayer who staunchly defends al-qaeda and calls them "funny". The two facets are sharing laughs and trading smiles, and have formed a marriage of convenience to debate the sane and rational individuals who only want to know where peaceful Islam ends and murderous Islam begins. Now THAT'S funny.

If your job is to run around being a pseudo-mod, and telling people to quit insulting others, you have a lot of work to do in this thread alone. The fact that this guy cuts off Fido's head and can't even spell is an insult, and a severe threat to humanity.
It's not "my job", it's a service I'm doing out of the goodwill of my heart to make sure people know they're breaking the rules and that they can be punished for it.
Glossary of Forbidden Actions (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=288255)
Well, cutting off a dog's head sure isn't a flame, and having bad grammar isn't either. I can't see anything else they fall under...

I suggest you lay off on the "threat to humanity" thing, because if he takes offense, I'm pretty sure that could be construed as a flame.

You'll thank me later. Or not, possibly. Either way, I'd suggest you calm down a bit over this whole thing.

They are also "People of the Book". As long as they believe in Allah (or God, whatever) and are good to other people, there isn't a problem. As far as worshipping Jesus goes, we see that as a little misguided, but well intended.

I'm so glad Muslims are peaceful, no different at all....whoo be right back another sucide bomber in Israel and Bagdad, nope wait two more. Wait..another saudi cleric giving a green light to terrorist attacks. Whoa look..at..Africa..what fun that must be. Religion is awesome, so much peace and security. Go agnostic we can't understand what's really going on...oh the IRA! be back

I'm so glad Muslims are peaceful, no different at all....whoo be right back another sucide bomber in Israel and Bagdad, nope wait two more. Wait..another saudi cleric giving a green light to terrorist attacks. Whoa look..at..Africa..what fun that must be. Religion is awesome, so much peace and security. Go agnostic we can't understand what's really going on...oh the IRA! be back

Must everybody keep hearing OVER AND OVER about the whole bad apple explanation?

It's not "my job", it's a service I'm doing out of the goodwill of my heart to make sure people know they're breaking the rules and that they can be punished for it.
Glossary of Forbidden Actions (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=288255)
Well, cutting off a dog's head sure isn't a flame, and having bad grammar isn't either. I can't see anything else they fall under...

I suggest you lay off on the "threat to humanity" thing, because if he takes offense, I'm pretty sure that could be construed as a flame.

You'll thank me later. Or not, possibly. Either way, I'd suggest you calm down a bit over this whole thing.

I'm offended at Charles Manson Jr. over there terrorizing the neighborhood cats with his mom's meat cleaver - but you don't care about that, do you? You are more concerned if he is offended at me calling him illiterate. Fine. He is a fine speller. I guess I just have spelled things wrong my whole life. Hope he's not offended!! Now he can go kill the family pet without the inconvenience of being offended!! YAY!!

I'm offended at Charles Manson Jr. over there terrorizing the neighborhood cats with his mom's meat cleaver - but you don't care about that, do you? You are more concerned if he is offended at me calling him illiterate.
Well, he isn't breaking any forum rules like you are.

EDIT:
And it's not about the "illiterate", it's about you saying he's off to viciously murder animals and all that.

Well, he isn't breaking any forum rules like you are.

Okie Dokie. What do I have to do to get on your good side? Murder a couple of puppies? Geez...

EDIT:
And it's not about the "illiterate", it's about you saying he's off to viciously murder animals and all that.

Have you read his posts?!! I'm the one talking about such things? This guy takes pride in the fact that he deals death in the animal kingdom like a bizarro Dr. Doolittle. If you want to play good cop, you should notify the ASPCA immediately about this clown.

Have you read his posts?!! I'm the one talking about such things? This guy takes pride in the fact that he deals death in the animal kingdom like a bizarro Dr. Doolittle. If you want to play good cop, you should notify the ASPCA immediately about this clown.
It didn't seem to me as though he took particular pride in it or anything, but if it will satisfy you, his posts have gone up in the report along with yours in case his do break forum rules.

Okay, I'm not real thrilled about him beheading animals either, but it has nothing to do with the rules. Objecting to how someone makes a living is fine. But flaming is against the rules.

As to our troll, have the mods acted yet?

It didn't seem to me as though he took particular pride in it or anything, but if it will satisfy you, his posts have gone up in the report along with yours in case his do break forum rules.

"Up in the report"? Hehe. Okay Barney Fife. Good work deputy.

As to our troll, have the mods acted yet?
Not that I can see. Posts are still up, no warning notice, and the thread in Moderation hasn't yet been handled.

Bitch

So I'm the evil troll. I get the impression that its not trolling that irks you, but rather, a difference of opinion.

Please, if you're going to argue about anything except "wanting to be a Muslim" then take it over to the thread in Moderation.

I'm still waiting for Keru's conversion story.

Bitch

So I'm the evil troll. I get the impression that its not trolling that irks you, but rather, a difference of opinion.

Calm down.

Well - its been really fun. Good luck on the recruitment of suicide bombers and baby killers for allah. I see some real prospects here. Allah would be proud.

Bitch

So I'm the evil troll. I get the impression that its not trolling that irks you, but rather, a difference of opinion.
We weren't talking about you, we were talking about this guy:
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=401890

Bitch

So I'm the evil troll. I get the impression that its not trolling that irks you, but rather, a difference of opinion.


Most people just shorten it to BK, but I'll answer to that too. :p

Though I was speaking about someone else, if the shoe fits, wear it. I've been on NS for long enough for people to know I can disagree without resorting to flaming, namecalling and tantrums.

Please, if you're going to argue about anything except "wanting to be a Muslim" then take it over to the thread in Moderation.
Seconded.
Any more problems anybody, take it here:
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=401900

To those who answered my question regarding the term "People of the Book", thank you. Abrahamic religions is a more familiar term. I suppose the way I read Keruvalia's initial use of the term "People of the Book" made me think that he was implying that Muslims refer to others as that only, and that they are not covered by that same term. I apologise for the misunderstanding.

Although, now that I think about it, People of the Book does indeed seem somewhat familiar. I probably heard it in one of my art history courses some time and just forgot about it.

Edit: I'd have the names of those who answered if I hadn't had to be at my biochemistry lab and then couldn't be bothered to find the names again after having read the pages that had accumulated. Sorry.

To those who answered my question regarding the term "People of the Book", thank you.

You're welcome.

Chris Y2J Jericho, Dostanuot Loj, is it necessary to be so graphic to get your point across?

Sloshnia, consider this an unofficial warning for ad hominem attacks and flaming. Cut it out, or the polite suggestions from Neo-Anarchists will become official warnings and/or forum bans from Moderation.
Okay Barney Fife. Good work deputy.We count on self-policing from our membership. You have a problem with that? I'd rather not get all formal and nasty with you, but if you insist, I will. You've had ample good advice from regular readers and posters, and now you've heard from Moderation.

I repeat. Cut it out.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Moderator Team

Are Muslim's legally, according to the Qu'ran, allowed to own hats?

http://www.geocities.com/iconoclastes.geo/victims.html

A nice site. Just for those who might believe that Muslims have the corner on the atrocity market.

Not a gory site. Mostly text.

Here's a funny thing...the only people I've ever heard use the word "infidel" aren't Muslims.

Yeah I noticed the same thing, it's like one of those in the movies deals ...
The other one I never heard a REAL actual Muslim use is 'It is written'
I know in either case I'm dealing with someone who is not really one of them.

Yeah I noticed the same thing, it's like one of those in the movies deals ...
The other one I never heard a REAL actual Muslim use is 'It is written'
I know in either case I'm dealing with someone who is not really one of them.
Search this page:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html

Bin Laden uses the word "infidel".

Yeah I noticed the same thing, it's like one of those in the movies deals ...
The other one I never heard a REAL actual Muslim use is 'It is written'
I know in either case I'm dealing with someone who is not really one of them.

My dad tends to use the word 'Kaffir' which means infidel now and then. He's somewhere between moderate and fundamentalist.

My cousin is a real Muslim and he uses infidel, you can't judge a whole religious group on a few people, everyone is different.

http://www.geocities.com/iconoclastes.geo/victims.html

A nice site. Just for those who might believe that Muslims have the corner on the atrocity market.

Not a gory site. Mostly text.

Good site, he left out the slaughter of 'Dobri Kristijani' aka Bogomils in Bosnia and Croatia. One of Croatia's early kings, King Tomislav was disappeared, no one knows where he is buried.
The persecution of Dobri Kristijani' in Bosnia Hercegovina probably was a contributory factor to the fall of Bosnia Hercegovina to the Ottoman Turks.
One king of Bosnia, Ban Kulin was nearly killed by the Inqusition over his adherence to this doctrine, and 150 of his noblemen were thrown off a bridge to die over the issue.

Speaking of Bosnia, that site left out the genocide which affected all communities, all three sides committed attrocities but the majority of casualties were Muslim Bosnians, who were killed by supporters of Milosevic. (most of those people at least called themselves Christians) and by forces aligned with Croatia,(again most of those people called themselves Christians), it is a big lie to say that Muslims always convert by the sword. If that happens how is it that there are 6 million Muslims in the United States?

I am not saying this to defend Islam. I'm Catholic myself.

My dad tends to use the word 'Kaffir' which means infidel now and then. He's somewhere between moderate and fundamentalist.

Actually 'kufr' means 'unbeliever' an infidel is someone unfaithful to their belief, not an unbeliever as such. I know it sounds nit picky.
The Muslims I'm most used to either were from India, and Indians tend to use 'kufr' a lot, but not in refereing to Christians or Jews or Zoroastrians, the other Muslim people I knew were from Bosnia-Hercegovina and they frankly didn't use either.
They tended to refer to people by religion specifically, and in their case they'd be talking about either Catholic Croat or Serbian Orthodox people.
The people there tend to be fairly intermarried and go to each other's religious events more than in other countries with a Muslim presence.

Chris Y2J Jericho, Dostanuot Loj, is it necessary to be so graphic to get your point across?

Sloshnia, consider this an unofficial warning for ad hominem attacks and flaming. Cut it out, or the polite suggestions from Neo-Anarchists will become official warnings and/or forum bans from Moderation.
We count on self-policing from our membership. You have a problem with that? I'd rather not get all formal and nasty with you, but if you insist, I will. You've had ample good advice from regular readers and posters, and now you've heard from Moderation.

I repeat. Cut it out.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Moderator Team


I didn't think I was being all that graphic, but I won't argue.
I decided to cut myself out of anything that could just go, wrong, in this topic last page, and I fully intend to keep like that.
Thanks for the hefty response.

Actually 'kufr' means 'unbeliever' an infidel is someone unfaithful to their belief, not an unbeliever as such. I know it sounds nit picky.
The Muslims I'm most used to either were from India, and Indians tend to use 'kufr' a lot, but not in refereing to Christians or Jews or Zoroastrians, the other Muslim people I knew were from Bosnia-Hercegovina and they frankly didn't use either.
They tended to refer to people by religion specifically, and in their case they'd be talking about either Catholic Croat or Serbian Orthodox people.
The people there tend to be fairly intermarried and go to each other's religious events more than in other countries with a Muslim presence.

I'm PRETTY sure that it's Kaffir/Khafir/Kaffer.

If you want to be muslim your probably posesed. I pray that youl find Jesus.

If you want to be muslim your probably posesed. I pray that youl find Jesus.

Possessed with the need to DANCE!

If you want to be muslim your probably posesed. I pray that youl find Jesus.

I am not posesed.

Oh, and I have found Jesus. He was a prophet, but he didn't die. He fooled the people who tried to kill him, and went to paradise. The pagans only thought they killed him.

:)

I am not posesed.

Oh, and I have found Jesus. He was a prophet, but he didn't die. He fooled the people who tried to kill him, and went to paradise. The pagans only thought they killed him.

:)
Well said.

I'm still waiting for Keru's conversion story.

I will eventually post that, but it will have its own thread and at another time. :) I appreciate the interest, though!

Are Muslim's legally, according to the Qu'ran, allowed to own hats?

Cute question. Yes, Muslims are allowed to own hats. Muslim men, for the most part, cover their hair just like Muslim women do.

If you want to be muslim your probably posesed. I pray that youl find Jesus.

:D I was wondering when you'd show up!

That's the MOST idiotic thing I've ever ever heard. Over 30 people have been BEHEADED ALIVE ON CAMERA IN IRAQ. They Move, They Scream, They move their body in pain. You call it fake? Well, watch some of these over here: (Watch the nepali one - where he decapicates him and purposley stops in the middle and watch him scream and move in pain)

Links to ogrish.com are BANNED. Link removed by Frisbeeteria (WARNING: EXTREME VIDEOS OF MUSLIMS)
Chris Y2J Jericho, don't post links from ogrish.com or other similarly graphic sites. Some sites, including ogrish, have been deemed too offensive to show on Nationstates. Find some other way to make your point.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Moderator Team

:D I was wondering when you'd show up!

Me too.

He was gone too long...

but did you see my rebuttle? I took it from what I know about Jesus in Islam. Now while I'm not a Muslim, it makes sense to me.

Me too.

He was gone too long...

but did you see my rebuttle? I took it from what I know about Jesus in Islam. Now while I'm not a Muslim, it makes sense to me.

Sorry, I'm kinda backtracking through the thread just in case I missed any questions during its long foray into trolling madness. I'm sure your response was just fine. :)

Cute question. Yes, Muslims are allowed to own hats. Muslim men, for the most part, cover their hair just like Muslim women do.

What? Even communist hats?

Answer: Especially communist hats!

I'm PRETTY sure that it's Kaffir/Khafir/Kaffer.

Actually Arabic is a language which has a lot of fun with vowels.

Whan you write in Arabic writing like with Hebrew there are just the consonants which get transliterated in a lot of fun ways. So both of us are right actually. How the word SOUNDS is going to differ with the region where the person saying the word comes from.
The way people who are Arab say vowels like 'A' has a range of sounds possible, it will change with what part of the word the vowel is in, and with other factors.

People who are not native speakers of Arabic say things a LOT differently from say the American guy who converted, and has for example a strong Alabama accent.

I am not posesed.

Oh, and I have found Jesus. He was a prophet, but he didn't die. He fooled the people who tried to kill him, and went to paradise. The pagans only thought they killed him.

:)

Hi there.

Just wondering...what is the theory of how Jesus fooled those who were trying to kill him?

Thanks

Search this page:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html

Bin Laden uses the word "infidel".

I don't know enough about bin Ladin's education to say if he even has the correct authority to issue a fatwa.
It requires a particular type of education and authority to do that.

Hi there.

Just wondering...what is the theory of how Jesus fooled those who were trying to kill him?

Thanks

I don't know if TLS is referring to the Muslim theory of Jesus's ascent to heaven, but this is the story Allah reveals in the Qur'an about Jesus:

Jesus was a great prophet, sent by God (Allah) to the sons of Israel to bring them back in line with His teachings after they corrupted the Torah, revealed to them through Moses. His mother was the virgin Mary, and Muslims believe in his miracles (healing the wounded, etc). He was caught and imprisoned, but not crucified. There was a look-alike of Jesus in the prison with him, and that look-alike took Jesus's place on the cross. Jesus ascended to heaven, he lives on still, and one day, he will return to Earth, to counter the anti-christ during the Apocalypse. He will preach the uncorrupted version of God's commandments - Islam.

There was a look alike? Wouldn't the Romans know who was who and who they were crucifying?

What do Muslims believe about his teaching? Especially those where he refers to being the fufillment of old testament/Torah prophecies?

Thanks

There was a look alike? Wouldn't the Romans know who was who and who they were crucifying?

Not necessarily - crucifixion has been applied to tens or even hundreds of thousands of people during the Roman empire. Mass executions were not a daily occurence, but not extremely rare either. I'm not certain if the Romans in those days really considered Jesus that important to actually give him special attention when compared to other people that were sentenced to death.
And even if they were.. who would expect another guy to wilingly take his place ? It *is* a rather gruesome death..

That's absurd... Protestatism started in 1513 or thereabouts, didn't it?

1521 I believe; that's the date of Luther's 95 Theses. If I remember right, Islam is more than a thousand years older than that.

I agree. I have rarely heard a more ridiculous conspiracy theory. The only thing that's missing is the aliens. -_-

It's 1517. But there were movements before then, like Lollardy in England in the 1300's, and other before then.

Cute question. Yes, Muslims are allowed to own hats. Muslim men, for the most part, cover their hair just like Muslim women do.

I still haven't found anywhere in the Quran where it explicitly says that a woman has to cover her hair and body. So why is this such a big thing? :confused:

Difference between you and I is that I can preserve the sanctity of my faith and share the true meaning of it without denouncing one single human being in the process.

By denouncing those abortion clinic murderers, you are violating your own construct of loving your enemy. Doesn't that make you a little bit of a hypocrite?

Oh, but that "loving your enemies" bit applies only to other people's enemies. It's fine to hate your own.
Or at least that's the essence of neocon fundamentalism. :headbang:

I've heard this pathetic argument many times. McVeigh was not a Christian by any means. He was a very disturbed young veteran suffering from PTSD. A true Christian could not carry out a terrorist attack. Therefore, calling the nuts on the far right who organize domestic terrorism "Christian Fundies" is hijacking Christ's name and placing it on a group which he would not approve of.

For any of you who are somehow still under the impression that McVeigh acted in the name of God, note that his last act before execution was to read Invictus, a HUMANISTIC ATHEIST declaration of autonomous rule over one's own soul.

Actually, they claim the title "Christian Fundamentalists" for themselves, just like Bin Laden claims the name "Muslim Fundamentalist." It's not us hijacking Christ's name; they do that themselves.

Actually, they claim the title "Christian Fundamentalists" for themselves, just like Bin Laden claims the name "Muslim Fundamentalist." It's not us hijacking Christ's name; they do that themselves.

I'm a Christian Fundamentalist, but I'm not a right-wing terrorist.

It's not just hijacking Christ's name - it's hijacking the whole label.

I would also point out that people that don't like Christians will use the term in a derogatory manner, much as some will use the term "Muslim Fundamentalist" as some sort of swear word.

This topic should be renamed to: "So you want to be a terrorist, eh?"
<snip>


Why, hello! I didn't know you posted on NS, Ms. Coulter!

Actually Arabic is a language which has a lot of fun with vowels.

Whan you write in Arabic writing like with Hebrew there are just the consonants which get transliterated in a lot of fun ways. So both of us are right actually. How the word SOUNDS is going to differ with the region where the person saying the word comes from.
The way people who are Arab say vowels like 'A' has a range of sounds possible, it will change with what part of the word the vowel is in, and with other factors.

People who are not native speakers of Arabic say things a LOT differently from say the American guy who converted, and has for example a strong Alabama accent.

I was raised to pronounce the 'A' in the word like in FATHER.

I don't know if TLS is referring to the Muslim theory of Jesus's ascent to heaven, but this is the story Allah reveals in the Qur'an about Jesus:

Jesus was a great prophet, sent by God (Allah) to the sons of Israel to bring them back in line with His teachings after they corrupted the Torah, revealed to them through Moses. His mother was the virgin Mary, and Muslims believe in his miracles (healing the wounded, etc). He was caught and imprisoned, but not crucified. There was a look-alike of Jesus in the prison with him, and that look-alike took Jesus's place on the cross. Jesus ascended to heaven, he lives on still, and one day, he will return to Earth, to counter the anti-christ during the Apocalypse. He will preach the uncorrupted version of God's commandments - Islam.

I'm not a Muslim, but I get a smile on my face at imagining the reaction of Christians if their "Lord and Savior" appeared and preached ANOTHER FAITH! Would Ann Coulter try to convert Jesus too? :)

If you want to be muslim your probably posesed. I pray that youl find Jesus.

I once found Jesus, but we didn't get along. :) By the way, the year of Luther's 95 Theses was 1517. Luther was also a major anti-Semite. Calvin was a major persecutor of people like Michael Servetus. The Catholic Church launched the pernicious Inquisition with its burnings at the stake. All faiths have blood on their hands.

I'm not a Muslim, but I get a smile on my face at imagining the reaction of Christians if their "Lord and Savior" appeared and preached ANOTHER FAITH! Would Ann Coulter try to convert Jesus too? :)

Yes, I'd like to see their reaction too.

Actually, according to the Bible, if a man, even an angel, comes to preach another faith than that must be the Antichrist or a predecessor.

I'm a Christian Fundamentalist, but I'm not a right-wing terrorist.

You sure? We could outfit you with a C4 vest and an AK in no time. :D

I still haven't found anywhere in the Quran where it explicitly says that a woman has to cover her hair and body. So why is this such a big thing? :confused:

Mostly tradition. It's been a long standing Jewish tradition to cover the hair in respect. It's strange to the standard view in the west where a man would remove his hat to show respect, but in the Middle East, one covers the head to show respect.

There is nothing in Qur'an that commands covering the head. There is Hadith concerning it, but Qur'an must always supercede Hadith - even if it is directly quoted by the Prophet himself.

It's a choice, not a command.

Here's a pretty good read on the subject:

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_201_250/splitting_hair_to_cover_hair_the.htm

Mostly tradition. It's been a long standing Jewish tradition to cover the hair in respect. It's strange to the standard view in the west where a man would remove his hat to show respect, but in the Middle East, one covers the head to show respect.

There is nothing in Qur'an that commands covering the head. There is Hadith concerning it, but Qur'an must always supercede Hadith - even if it is directly quoted by the Prophet himself.

It's a choice, not a command.

Here's a pretty good read on the subject:

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_201_250/splitting_hair_to_cover_hair_the.htm

Although I've thought about it, I don't know if I should start wearing a hijab. I don't know why I doubt it but I do.

Although I've thought about it, I don't know if I should start wearing a hijab. I don't know why I doubt it but I do.

It's up to you, that's the beauty of it. It is pleasing to Allah that in Mosque, you cover yourself out of respect for Allah. Men too! Other than that, though, as long as you are modest (so no tube tops and short skirts, sorry) then there should never be a problem. :)

Actually, according to the Bible, if a man, even an angel, comes to preach another faith than that must be the Antichrist or a predecessor.

That's in the New Testament. My point is what would you do if JESUS, whom you think to be God, appeared and preached a different faith?! :)

It's up to you, that's the beauty of it. It is pleasing to Allah that in Mosque, you cover yourself out of respect for Allah. Men too! Other than that, though, as long as you are modest (so no tube tops and short skirts, sorry) then there should never be a problem. :)

It doesn't seem to be any different from the Jewish practice of wearing the kepah and the tallit.

Even though I'm a Christian now, I still put the tallit on when I pray at home.

It doesn't seem to be any different from the Jewish practice of wearing the kepah and the tallit.


Exactly! But, then again, it makes sense because Allah gave Torah to the Hebrews. Allah has always asked for hijab in worship.

Oddly, I still do it because I believe that hanging out under my tallit promotes kavanah.

Exactly! But, then again, it makes sense because Allah gave Torah to the Hebrews. Allah has always asked for hijab in worship.

Yep, the only time I wear one is when I go to the mosque/prayer/someone reciting Qur'an.

Mostly tradition. It's been a long standing Jewish tradition to cover the hair in respect. It's strange to the standard view in the west where a man would remove his hat to show respect, but in the Middle East, one covers the head to show respect.

There is nothing in Qur'an that commands covering the head. There is Hadith concerning it, but Qur'an must always supercede Hadith - even if it is directly quoted by the Prophet himself.



Thank you, that's the impression I got, too - it's mainly about not showing off your breasts and being decent. No different really from Europe up untill the Renaissance, where women would never go out without something on their heads. (And in ancient Greece of course the women covered themselves up when they went out - the outfits we see statues of Greek goddesses wearing, were only worn by prostitutes and goddesses.) Even my old grandmother always wore a hat or scarf on her head when she went out of the house, probably to avoid having her hairstyle ruined by the weather as well as it being the commonly accepted and fashionable thing to do.

I still can't see that short skirts should be disallowed though, the only body part that is mentioned is the "bosom"... (Also I think I remember something about not jangling ankle rings too much. I assumed that was meant to be a recommendation not to show off in a bragging manner. :confused: ) And maybe, as times change, and what is seen as decent and respectable dress also changes, dresscodes could be revised? Isn't the point just to avoid trouble and dress in a way that will make people respect you? The way the Muslim dresscode is practiced by some (not all) probably causes more problems than it solves for a lot of girls today.

That's in the New Testament. My point is what would you do if JESUS, whom you think to be God, appeared and preached a different faith?! :)

I would have to assume that it was the Antichrist impersonating God, because He specifically warned us that someone like that would come.

P.S. Getting back to the primary subject, I think that a dress code is not entirely a bad idea because of some of the crap I see women wearing in Western civilizations. But ideally people would exercise their free will and choose to dress modestly so they could always be presentable to God (or in this case, Allah, though I don't believe in him.)

..Kill those who disagree with you.

..Kill those who disagree with you.

oh thats such a nice post. Grow up kid

presentable to God (or in this case, Allah, though I don't believe in him.)

Heh ... if you beleive in the God of Abraham, then you do believe in Allah. Abraham's God was the one true God, named Allah.

People didn't start calling Allah "God" until around 1100 CE. Before then, the God of Abraham was called "Elaw" (by Abraham), "Eloh" (by Moses), or "Eloi" (by Jesus), or "Allah" (by Muhammed).

So you do believe in Him. :)

..Kill those who disagree with you.

Ah, yes, must remember that ... what was your address again?

So, what do you think of the Islamic Republic of Iran? I'm just curious, because I think it is an evil government which is incompatible with Persian culture and in need of immediate destruction.

Keruvalia, you are awesome. Not just for enlightening us, but also for being able to shrug off the flamebaits.

And New Tantrum, if Luther was an Anti-Semite, why would he re-form a semitic church? You could say he was anti-jew, but anti-semite refers to all three Abrahamic religions. I think.

Yesh, I agree, Keruvalia is a nice guy.

So, what do you think of the Islamic Republic of Iran? I'm just curious, because I think it is an evil government which is incompatible with Persian culture and in need of immediate destruction.

I think the Persian people will take care of there overzealous government. In do time. They cant maintain there grasp for much longer. Especially with GW in office.

So, what do you think of the Islamic Republic of Iran? I'm just curious, because I think it is an evil government which is incompatible with Persian culture and in need of immediate destruction.

I think that, like any government, Iran has its good and bad. Much of the Iranian government is corrupt and does pervert Qur'an to their own design.

However, Iran is a beautiful country and I have a deep admiration for the Persian culture and would hate to see any bad befall it. I agree that there needs to be some serious reform, but I do not believe that is the job of the West to deal with.

Iranians are Muslim. We cannot take Western ideals and impose them on Iran like we did Iraq - something that will backfire on us in the not too distant future.

I think the Persians should clean their own house. Unfortunately, that's a hell of a lot easier to say than it is to do.

Keruvalia, you are awesome. Not just for enlightening us, but also for being able to shrug off the flamebaits.

And New Tantrum, if Luther was an Anti-Semite, why would he re-form a semitic church? You could say he was anti-jew, but anti-semite refers to all three Abrahamic religions. I think.


A semite is someone from the Middle East, or North Africa.
Thus, Egyptians, Arabs, and Hebrews are all semites.

An anti-Semite is someone who is against these.

Ah, almost (<--- I was almost right). But Christianity is a Semitic religion, so it all works out.

Ah, almost. But Christianity is a Semitic religion, so it all works out.


Eh, no it's not. You're not listening. A Semite, oir anything to do with the Semetic, is solely from the middle east and North Africa. It is a language tree, and an ethnicity, not a religion.

All that garbage about anti-semitism being anti-jew, is BS.

Semite has nothing to do with the idea of religion. Christianity is a Monotheastic religion, just like the Jews and Islam, but it's not semetic, because semetic has no bearing on religion.

Arabian pagans were Semites, so were Egyptian pagans and the Hebrews, that means nothing.
In fact, the Babylonians were Semites (Not the Sumerians though).

Keruvalia, I'd just like to thank you for all the trouble you went through to post something so indepth and informative. My father is an Iranian Muslim, and though I have never met him and was raised by my mother I take my heritage very seriously. Its so rare to find someone in the 'civilized' West who's taken the time to even understand the basic tenets of any religion other than their own, far rarer to find someone willing to explain one without prompting. For your troubles, I thank you.

Eh, no it's not. You're not listening. A Semite, oir anything to do with the Semetic, is solely from the middle east and North Africa. It is a language tree, and an ethnicity, not a religion.
I stand corrected. But it is from that area.

I think that, like any government, Iran has its good and bad. Much of the Iranian government is corrupt and does pervert Qur'an to their own design.

However, Iran is a beautiful country and I have a deep admiration for the Persian culture and would hate to see any bad befall it. I agree that there needs to be some serious reform, but I do not believe that is the job of the West to deal with.

Iranians are Muslim. We cannot take Western ideals and impose them on Iran like we did Iraq - something that will backfire on us in the not too distant future.

I think the Persians should clean their own house. Unfortunately, that's a hell of a lot easier to say than it is to do.

Try telling that to George Dubya, if you can get him to listen. Preferrably some time before June this year (http://forums.christianity.com/html/P1373657/?page=last)...

(Thought it would be fun to choose this particular site for source; also because nobody will say they made this up. :D )

They may still consider themselves Muslim, but 99.9% of the Muslim world disagrees with them. If you believe that, you've allowed yourself to be brainwashed.

If you believe that, you've allowed yourself to be brainwashed.

Brainwashed? Hardly ... damn near impossible in my case. I'm probably the most skeptical person you'll ever meet.

Brainwashed? Hardly ... damn near impossible in my case. I'm probably the most skeptical person you'll ever meet.

I assume that 99.9% was a metaphor as clearly there are a lot of extremists per capita in the mideast countries that are the worst offenders.

I think that, like any government, Iran has its good and bad. Much of the Iranian government is corrupt and does pervert Qur'an to their own design.

However, Iran is a beautiful country and I have a deep admiration for the Persian culture and would hate to see any bad befall it. I agree that there needs to be some serious reform, but I do not believe that is the job of the West to deal with.

[QUOTE]Iranians are Muslim. We cannot take Western ideals and impose them on Iran like we did Iraq - something that will backfire on us in the not too distant future.

Just a minor point here, but not all Iranian's are Muslim. There are sizeable minoritys of Christians, Zorastians and Baha'is.

Hehe... the mention of Egypt reminded me of something. Egypt is making superhero comicbooks now about a group that fights the Evil Army of Zios.

Zios huh? That makes you think. But I guess it's better than their former name Joosylvania.

Just a minor point here, but not all Iranian's are Muslim. There are sizeable minoritys of Christians, Zorastians and Baha'is.

Ah, yes, and I had no intention of implying there weren't members of other faiths. Iran is, by vast majority, Muslim, but I do believe that any government should strive to protect the rights of the minority.

For example, the US is 74% (approx) Christian, but that doesn't mean the US should impose Christianity on the remaining 26% nor should it seek to repress other faiths.

Iran should do the same.

Greed and powermongering by men, mostly. We do not own land. The Earth belongs to Allah and Allah will decide what happens to it and when. Man proposes, Allah disposes.

I notice that you write the name of Allah in your post. I thought that Islam forbids the name of God to be written. Is that untrue ?

Hehe... the mention of Egypt reminded me of something. Egypt is making superhero comicbooks now about a group that fights the Evil Army of Zios.

Zios huh? That makes you think. But I guess it's better than their former name Joosylvania.

Ah, quality Daily Show reference.

Ah, quality Daily Show reference.
There we go. I forgot where I got that from.

I notice that you write the name of Allah in your post. I thought that Islam forbids the name of God to be written. Is that untrue ?

Forbids? Not at all. Writing the name is ok - even very ornately - but drawing pictures of Allah is forbidden.

I notice that you write the name of Allah in your post. I thought that Islam forbids the name of God to be written. Is that untrue ?

If it were forbidden to write Allah then what good would the Qur'an be?

In Judaism they refuse to write out any complete representation of God's name because the priests were concerned that there was no medium perfect enough to record such a holy name on. While it is still true that the name is infinitely holier than the paper it is printed on, many religions have relented and print the name out as a matter of convenience.

Concerning the drawing of Allah:
It is a good idea to prohibit people from drawing God. Since He does not have a constant physical manifestation, being a supernatural being, any drawing we could attempt to make of Him would understate HIs greatness as above. Furthermore, how would we know what to draw?

I have trouble with the Western perception of Jesus in the same manner. I doubt He looks anything like what so many of us perceive Him as, since He was Hebrew by race and "without form nor comeliness" so people would not be drawn to Him for His "good looks."

A question for you Keruvalia, and any other Muslims who can be civil in their defence (I know Keru can).

Why would I want to convert to Islam, when I consider what Islam has done to the countries where it is espoused? There is little, if any, religious freedom, non-Muslims are subjected to special taxes, women are not treated equally...the list goes on. For example, in Pakistan today (http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/04/wrape04.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/03/04/ixworld.html), several men were aquitted of a rape to which there were more than 100 witnesses. The judges, it seems, are mad at the woman for refusing to accept their decision in an earlier case when the woman's brother was sodomized. So when she refused, the council of the tribe ordered these men to rape her. Now all of that may be so much tribal barbarity, but Islam allows these people to get away with this action, and justify it under sharia, where a woman's own testimony is impermissible in her defence.

Iran is, or claims to be, a model Islamic state, as does Saudi, and neither of them are places I would want to live. People make fun of the Pilgrims in America's heritage, but those were some party animals compared to the Muslims in Iran and Saudi.

I don't want to carouse, or worship Buddha, or do whatever it is Wiccans do, but I certainly don't think there should be laws against it. Muslims seem to think there should be, or at least Sura 9:29 tells them to "make others feel subdued" and this has been justification for a lot of wickedness. Throughout history, Islamic nations have opressed other religions. Christian nations, and Buddhist China, and Hindu/Buddhist India have a long history of tolerance (most of the time) So, on historical grounds, unless I like oppression and injustice, why should I espouse Islam?

This may sound like a loaded question, but it isn't meant to be. I am just fairly convinced of the historical weight of evidence.

A question for you Keruvalia, and any other Muslims who can be civil in their defence (I know Keru can).

Why would I want to convert to Islam, when I consider what Islam has done to the countries where it is espoused? There is little, if any, religious freedom, non-Muslims are subjected to special taxes, women are not treated equally...the list goes on. For example, in Pakistan today, several men were aquitted of a rape to which there were more than 100 witnesses. The judges, it seems, are mad at the woman for refusing to accept their decision in an earlier case when the woman's brother was sodomized. So when she refused, the council of the tribe ordered these men to rape her. Now all of that may be so much tribal barbarity, but Islam allows these people to get away with this action, and justify it under sharia, where a woman's own testimony is impermissible in her defence.

Iran is, or claims to be, a model Islamic state, as does Saudi, and neither of them are places I would want to live. People make fun of the Pilgrims in America's heritage, but those were some party animals compared to the Muslims in Iran and Saudi.

I don't want to carouse, or worship Buddha, or do whatever it is Wiccans do, but I certainly don't think there should be laws against it. Muslims seem to think there should be, or at least Sura 9:29 tells them to "make others feel subdued" and this has been justification for a lot of wickedness. Throughout history, Islamic nations have opressed other religions. Christian nations, and Buddhist China, and Hindu/Buddhist India have a long history of tolerance (most of the time) So, on historical grounds, unless I like oppression and injustice, why should I espouse Islam?

This may sound like a loaded question, but it isn't meant to be. I am just fairly convinced of the historical weight of evidence.
I'm not Muslim but I'd like to give ya my two cents. :p
I think that state Islam, where religion is used to implement authoritarianism, is motivated more by POLITICS than religion. It may be due to the desire to be free of Western influence and domination, or there may be small powerhungry cartels.

And Christian nations having a history of tolerance? Excuse me? Crusades? COLONIALISM? India took a disturbing turn toward Hindu fundamentalism a while back too, electing the BJP. And Buddhists make up a tiny minority in India, there are FAR more Muslims and Christians.

And there have been very tolerant Islamic governments. Off the top of my head, look at the reign of Akbar in North India. Science and the arts and all religions flourished under his rule. Most of the sultanates in India were pretty good like that. Also the golden age of Islam, the caliphate and all that. They were more progressive than Christian Europe at that time.

Hopefully, Iran can turn to democratic reform without us having to invade them. But is it likely? I don't know. The Mullahs aren't popular at all, yet they still hold an iron grip...Well, at least we have Dubya in office, so if the Mullahs ain't gonna cooperate...

This may sound like a loaded question, but it isn't meant to be. I am just fairly convinced of the historical weight of evidence.

All questions are loaded, so it's ok.

I would not advise a non-Muslim to move to Saudi or Iran either. Both governments are corrupt and corrupt Islam to their own political desires - much like neocons are doing with Christianity in the US.

Islam, however, has nothing to do with politics and neither the Shariah nor the Sunnah are required to be Muslim. Only Qur'an is the authority. The leaders in Iran and the Saudi royal family would be assholes whether they were Christian or Atheist or whatnot. Being an asshole knows no religious bounds.

You mention Surah 9:29. The Jizyah is a compensation that those who wish to live under the protection of Islam, but not accept Islam itself, have to pay. Frankly, I see nothing wrong with this. Everybody deserves self-protection, yes, but if you want private security, you have to pay for it - either by fee or through taxes. You're paying the US government to protect you whenever you pay your taxes which, in turn, pays for the police, military, etc. How is that any different? The Jizyah is paid as a token of *willing* submission, just as every year when you file your 1040 (or whatever), you are willingly submitting to the laws of the US. Again, it is no different.

You ask why you'd want to convert based on certain country's politics ... I say to you that if you wish to convert to anything based on politics, you're better off not converting.

However, this thread isn't a call for people to convert. It's information, nothing more.

Keruvalia, the one main complaint I have against Western Muslims is their constant need to portray themselves as victims. Instead of joining the rest of us and attacking the fundamentalists, all I hear from groups such as the "Council On American-Islamic Relations" every time a terrorist attack occurs is whining about bad Americans who are just out to get the Muslims. There have been extremely few instances of violence against Muslims in the US, and our President himself constantly asserts that the War on Terror is not a war against Islam. So can you lay off the "boo hoo, everyone is such a racist against me" shtick? Not you specifically, but the American Muslim community in general.

Hopefully, Iran can turn to democratic reform without us having to invade them. But is it likely? I don't know. The Mullahs aren't popular at all, yet they still hold an iron grip...Well, at least we have Dubya in office, so if the Mullahs ain't gonna cooperate...

Yes ... because Iran has no close allies (like China and Russia) who might get a little miffed if we invaded them just for not liking their style of government.

The more the US bullies its value system on the rest of the world, the more nations will be willing to say "fuck it" and bomb the crap out of us.

So can you lay off the "boo hoo, everyone is such a racist against me" shtick?

When have I ever done that? Show me once. You're accusing me of doing something I've never done.

I would not advise a non-Muslim to move to Saudi or Iran either. Both governments are corrupt and corrupt Islam to their own political desires - much like neocons are doing with Christianity in the US.

Oh come on now. Neocons do nothing of the sort. We believe in using US military force to promote democracy around the world. Disagree with our ideas if you will, but don't equalize us Neocons with a totalitarian fundamentalist regime.

When have I ever done that? Show me once. You're accusing me of doing something I've never done.
I'm not referring to you specifically, as I said in my previous post, but to the American Muslim community in general, and specifically the Council On American-Islamic relations.

Oh come on now. Neocons do nothing of the sort. We believe in using US military force to promote democracy around the world.
I'm having trouble taking this seriously.

How can you spread democracy by force? It's rather oxymoronic ain't it? And what if people don't want your style of so-called democracy?

Yes ... because Iran has no close allies (like China and Russia) who might get a little miffed if we invaded them just for not liking their style of government.

The more the US bullies its value system on the rest of the world, the more nations will be willing to say "fuck it" and bomb the crap out of us.
It's not that we don't "like their style of government." It's that the Iranian people elected democratic reformers, and want democracy, and are not getting it. And of course, there is the fact that they are developing nuclear weapons and sponsoring terrorism.

Oh come on now. Neocons do nothing of the sort. We believe in using US military force to promote democracy around the world. Disagree with our ideas if you will, but don't equalize us Neocons with a totalitarian fundamentalist regime.

Iran is not totalitarian ... it's a Theocratic Constitutional Republic ... just like the neocons want the US to be ... just a different religion.

I'm not referring to you specifically, as I said in my previous post, but to the American Muslim community in general, and specifically the Council On American-Islamic relations.

I don't control what the COAI does or says.

I'm not Muslim but I'd like to give ya my two cents. :p
I think that state Islam, where religion is used to implement authoritarianism, is motivated more by POLITICS than religion. It may be due to the desire to be free of Western influence and domination, or there may be small powerhungry cartels.

And Christian nations having a history of tolerance? Excuse me? Crusades? COLONIALISM? India took a disturbing turn toward Hindu fundamentalism a while back too, electing the BJP. And Buddhists make up a tiny minority in India, there are FAR more Muslims and Christians.

And there have been very tolerant Islamic governments. Off the top of my head, look at the reign of Akbar in North India. Science and the arts and all religions flourished under his rule. Most of the sultanates in India were pretty good like that. Also the golden age of Islam, the caliphate and all that. They were more progressive than Christian Europe at that time.

lets not forget the ottoman empire; at their peak, they allowed all other religions to be practiced for a meager tax, and were even run by former christians.

I'm having trouble taking this seriously.

How can you spread democracy by force? It's rather oxymoronic ain't it? And what if people don't want your style of so-called democracy?
You can do it by abolishing dictators who prevent it. Of course, I'm not for toppling every random dictator around, but those who oppress their people and threaten the US should be taken out. And if the people don't want democracy...They can vote against it. That's the beauty of it all; we give people a choice on their government, instead of leaving them with a strongman nobody supports.

I don't control what the COAI does or says.
I know that. But as an intelligent, well educated, western Muslim, you can try to affect the attitudes of the general Muslim community, can you not?

I know that. But as an intelligent, well educated, western Muslim, you can try to affect the attitudes of the general Muslim community, can you not?

I can and I do. I am, however, just one person. Change takes time. Don't expect overnight success.

lets not forget the ottoman empire; at their peak, they allowed all other religions to be practiced for a meager tax, and were even run by former christians.
Personally, I wouldn't put the Ottomans as religiously tolerant. They did that only for a period of time, and the tax was not meager. One should look instead at modern day Turkey and Morocco, as fine examples.

I can and I do. I am, however, just one person. Change takes time. Don't expect overnight success.
I know that! Martin Luther didn't reform Christianity in a day, after all. Well, keep on rockin'.

Keruvalia, the one main complaint I have against Western Muslims is their constant need to portray themselves as victims. Instead of joining the rest of us and attacking the fundamentalists, all I hear from groups such as the "Council On American-Islamic Relations" every time a terrorist attack occurs is whining about bad Americans who are just out to get the Muslims. There have been extremely few instances of violence against Muslims in the US, and our President himself constantly asserts that the War on Terror is not a war against Islam. So can you lay off the "boo hoo, everyone is such a racist against me" shtick? Not you specifically, but the American Muslim community in general.

my father is an Iranian muslim, thought i appear caucasian, so i hear a lot of anti-middle eastern bias' that i wouldn't hear otherwise. i've heard my people called ragheads, camel jockeys and even sand niggers by white people who think their words and actions are justified by the actions of about a dozen men on a single day in all two hundred + years that our great country has existed. you would tell me that there's no 'real' racism? my friend Colin, a Sikh, had his uncle shot to death by a pickup truck full of white teenagers within a month of 9/11. He wasn't even from the same CONTINENT as some of the hijackers, let alone country, race, or religion.

all true muslims freely denounce extremists; the fact that you haven't heard it in your predominantly white christian community has nothing to do with reality.

Someone commented earlier on the appearance of Jesus. Well, we won't ever know what he looks like. Chances are he was tan, dark haired and eyed. However, that doesn't mean he couldn't be otherwise. He could have been blonde, as there has always been blonde minorities in Mediterranean cultures. He could have had been a mulatto as well, as there has been a mulatto minority in the middle east for quite some time as well. Saying that he didn't look like something is about as illogical as saying he looked like the opposite.

Hey, I like reading this thread (and learning about Islam). How about bringing it back to square one?? It's not that I'm not interested in discussions about pro-America/pro-Democracy Iranians, it's just that I feel it would be better suited to a different thread...

my father is an Iranian muslim, thought i appear caucasian, so i hear a lot of anti-middle eastern bias' that i wouldn't hear otherwise. i've heard my people called ragheads, camel jockeys and even sand niggers by white people who think their words and actions are justified by the actions of about a dozen men on a single day in all two hundred + years that our great country has existed. you would tell me that there's no 'real' racism? my friend Colin, a Sikh, had his uncle shot to death by a pickup truck full of white teenagers within a month of 9/11. He wasn't even from the same CONTINENT as some of the hijackers, let alone country, race, or religion.

all true muslims freely denounce extremists; the fact that you haven't heard it in your predominantly white christian community has nothing to do with reality.

Iranians are considered white. They are "mediterranean" in appearance for the most part, just like Italians and what not. Their language is Indo-European, and they did not interbreed with Dravidians, as they did in India.

I am not by any chance interested in coverting to Islam, but I've always wondered: If you are saving up to a pilgrimage to Mecca, but you suddenly die, are you really to be held resposible for your own death?

all true muslims freely denounce extremists; the fact that you haven't heard it in your predominantly white christian community has nothing to do with reality.

Amen. Matter of fact, somewhere around here, in some thread, I posted dozens of links to major Muslim leaders denouncing terrorism (even the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia) as against Islam.

I'll have to find that post.

I am not by any chance interested in coverting to Islam, but I've always wondered: If you are saving up to a pilgrimage to Mecca, but you suddenly die, are you really to be held resposible for your own death?

Depends on how you die, I suppose.

Hey, I like reading this thread (and learning about Islam). How about bringing it back to square one?? It's not that I'm not interested in discussions about pro-America/pro-Democracy Iranians, it's just that I feel it would be better suited to a different thread...

Well it's all part of it, unforunately. Some folks just don't know how to separate their politics and religion. I mean ... I'm Muslim ... I suppose just by appearance and practice, people would say I'm "Orthodox" Muslim ... but look at my Political Compass results in my sig ....

A traditional Muslim who is about as hippie libertarian communist as you can get.

*shrug*

my father is an Iranian muslim, thought i appear caucasian, so i hear a lot of anti-middle eastern bias' that i wouldn't hear otherwise. i've heard my people called ragheads, camel jockeys and even sand niggers by white people who think their words and actions are justified by the actions of about a dozen men on a single day in all two hundred + years that our great country has existed. you would tell me that there's no 'real' racism? my friend Colin, a Sikh, had his uncle shot to death by a pickup truck full of white teenagers within a month of 9/11. He wasn't even from the same CONTINENT as some of the hijackers, let alone country, race, or religion.

all true muslims freely denounce extremists; the fact that you haven't heard it in your predominantly white christian community has nothing to do with reality.
That last statement is a lie. I know most Muslims aren't fanatics. And I'm told this by my "predominantly christian community'" leaders. George W. Bush, every US senator. The fact is that on record, there was 1, count that 1, anti-Muslim hate crime after 9/11, and it involved a Sikh. I'm guessing you took that story, and tried to BS that it was your uncle. I didn't say there was no real racism. I'm saying its over exaggerated.

Iran is not totalitarian ... it's a Theocratic Constitutional Republic ... just like the neocons want the US to be ... just a different religion.
Name one influential neocon who has said he/she wants to do anything like that. And how is it a "Constitutional Republic" if the peoples' vote doesn't matter? The Mullahs, who are unelected, get to pick and choose their candidates, and even if a liberal reformer is elected, he/she has no power. After all, the Iranian President is actually very moderate, but look at how the Iranian government is structured. Ah, and it is totalitarian, as it attempts to regulate people's personal lives and has a secret police.

I'm going to jump back in with a dumb question that I'm sure has been answered, but I don't want to search for it.

Do Muslims have to (Or should) keep kosher? Or does it go by a different term? Or are there any simmilar laws in the Qu'ran?

Name one influential neocon who has said he/she wants to do anything like that.

Tom Delay - so influential that the rules governing behaviour in Congress changed to allow him to keep his post even while under indictment - has said in clear English, "Separation of Church and State has no place in the US".

I can easily find more from him, but that will do for now.

And how is it a "Constitutional Republic" if the peoples' vote doesn't matter? The Mullahs, who are unelected, get to pick and choose their candidates, and even if a liberal reformer is elected, he/she has no power. After all, the Iranian President is actually very moderate, but look at how the Iranian government is structured. Ah, and it is totalitarian, as it attempts to regulate people's personal lives and has a secret police.

Hrmmmm ... you've actually kinda described the United States.

Election 2000: Popular vote didn't matter.
Attempts to regulate people's personal lives.
Has a secret police.

So what's the problem again? Personally, I think the US needs to clean up its own back yard before telling the neighbors they need to mow.

I'm going to jump back in with a dumb question that I'm sure has been answered, but I don't want to search for it.

Do Muslims have to (Or should) keep kosher? Or does it go by a different term? Or are there any simmilar laws in the Qu'ran?

The Muslim term for dietary restrictions is called "Halal". The main references are in Qur'an 2:173, 5:3, 5:5, 6:118, 6:145, 16:115, and others.

Islamic law prohibits a Muslim from consuming alcohol, eating or drinking blood and its by-products, and eating the meat of a carnivore or omnivore, such as pork, monkey, dog or cat. For the meat of an animal to be halal it must be properly slaughtered by a Muslim or a Person of the Book (Christian or Jew), while mentioning the name of Allah; for instance, the animal may not be killed by being boiled or electrocuted, and the carcass should be hung upside down long enough to be bloodfree.

I generally keep kosher myself, which by Qur'an 5:5 is perfectly acceptable.

The Muslim term for dietary restrictions is called "Halal". The main references are in Qur'an 2:173, 5:3, 5:5, 6:118, 6:145, 16:115, and others.

Islamic law prohibits a Muslim from consuming alcohol, eating or drinking blood and its by-products, and eating the meat of a carnivore or omnivore, such as pork, monkey, dog or cat. For the meat of an animal to be halal it must be properly slaughtered by a Muslim or a Person of the Book (Christian or Jew), while mentioning the name of Allah; for instance, the animal may not be killed by being boiled or electrocuted, and the carcass should be hung upside down long enough to be bloodfree.

I generally keep kosher myself, which by Qur'an 5:5 is perfectly acceptable.


Ah, so Lobster = bad?
I hate lobster anyway. So if I ever wnated to convert that wouldn;t be a problem.

Ah, so Lobster = bad?
I hate lobster anyway. So if I ever wnated to convert that wouldn;t be a problem.

For Kashrut, yes, for Halal, not so much.

However, I personally believe Muslims should follow Torah as well as Qur'an. Torah was just as much the word of Allah and Qur'an doesn't change it, just re-affirms it.

Hrmmmm ... you've actually kinda described the United States.

Election 2000: Popular vote didn't matter.
Attempts to regulate people's personal lives.
Has a secret police.

So what's the problem again? Personally, I think the US needs to clean up its own back yard before telling the neighbors they need to mow.
Election 2000: The electoral college insures that rural areas aren't ignored by candidates only campaigning in high population density areas. Comparing that to a system where the overwhelming majority of the populace support one thing but the government does another is frankly ridiculous.
And how exactly does the US government regulate people's lives in any way that is similiar to Iran? We don't exactly have Sharia law here. What secret police? I don't remember anyone being locked up for dissenting. If we had a secret police, Michael Moore would be rotting in a cell a looong time ago.

Election 2000: The electoral college insures that rural areas aren't ignored by candidates only campaigning in high population density areas. Comparing that to a system where the overwhelming majority of the populace support one thing but the government does another is frankly ridiculous.

Just how does Iran go against something an "overwhelming majority" of Iranian people want. I mean ... hell ... Iran may have a female President before the US does! Shirin Ebadi is wildly popular and has a chance.

http://nobelprize.org/peace/laureates/2003/ebadi-bio.html

Do you have any links to sources that can show where the people freely elected a representative, but the Mullahs said no to the choice? Cuz I can show the US doing it at least 3 times.

And how exactly does the US government regulate people's lives in any way that is similiar to Iran? We don't exactly have Sharia law here. What secret police? I don't remember anyone being locked up for dissenting. If we had a secret police, Michael Moore would be rotting in a cell a looong time ago.

Let's see ... regulating private lives like Iran does ...

FCC and various indecency acts - tells me, an adult, what I can and cannot hear on the radio or see on TV (mostly because some people are too retarded to actually turn off their TV if something offensive pops up).

Defining Marriage - the government has no right to tell me whether or not my marriage is legitimate.

State liquor laws - because the Baptists don't like it, I can't go buy a bottle of Jack Daniels on Sunday whether or not I want to.

Anti-Assisted Suicide laws - why is it the government's business to tell me when, where, and how I choose to die?

Shall I go on?

Oh, and as for secret police, Iran doesn't have one either. I was being facetious. If it were secret, you wouldn't know about it.

This makes me sick. The whole idea of this post reminds me of a "Allah for Dumbies" book. The "Religion of Peace" is no different than any other hate group. I've got a new slogan for your comercials. "Want to be happy with having JUST running water? Want to live like the idiots that ran a plane into a building? Well, visit your nearest mosque! We'll give you this handy book 10 STEPS TO JIHAD and WHAT IF ALAH WAS ONE OF US! HURRY HURRY HURRY!" I love Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech, but its a little offensive seeing this discussion on this forum. The people of Islam are not friendly. They're terrorists. :mp5: How stupid can you be?

Oh, and as for secret police, Iran doesn't have one either. I was being facetious. If it were secret, you wouldn't know about it.
:eek:

This makes me sick. The whole idea of this post reminds me of a "Allah for Dumbies" book. The "Religion of Peace" is no different than any other hate group. I've got a new slogan for your comercials. "Want to be happy with having JUST running water? Want to live like the idiots that ran a plane into a building? Well, visit your nearest mosque! We'll give you this handy book 10 STEPS TO JIHAD and WHAT IF ALAH WAS ONE OF US! HURRY HURRY HURRY!" I love Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech, but its a little offensive seeing this discussion on this forum. The people of Islam are not friendly. They're terrorists. :mp5: How stupid can you be?

Gee ... if all I have is running water, how am I posting on the internet? Guess my computer runs on water. Oh well ... whatever. You're hilarious.