NationStates Jolt Archive

EDIT: This is not intended to try to get people to convert. It is merely for informational purposes.

A quick tutorial on what happens, what it's like, and what to expect. (Something I'm developing for a website and would like a little feedback from NS folks):

Note: I have used the term "brothers" not due to Islam being a men's club, but because this is written from a male perspective.

Step 1: Read Qur'an.

This sort of speaks for itself. Qur'an is the Muslim Holy Book and is not something to be taken lightly. I often suggest to people who have an interest in Islam to spend at least one day per week at a local Mosque, speaking with the brothers or sisters about Qur'an and ask lots and lots of questions. You'll get a variety of opinions, but it will give you the tools you need to formulate your own. You do not have to agree with Qur'an 100% right off the bat in order to become Muslim. A typical conversation I would have with some of the elder brothers in the Mosque while I was learning about Qur'an went like this:

Brother: Do you know Qur'an?
Me: I know a little.
Brother: Then you know more than me.

Islam is a constant learning process that begins with the decision to learn and doesn't end until death - and, even then, it may continue.

Step 2: Ask yourself why.

If you can't answer this question, I would suggest trying something else. Becoming Muslim is much more than just changing religions, it is a responsibility. Responsibility to your brothers and sisters in Islam, responsibility to your own family, responsibility to yourself, responsibility to the global Muslim community, and responsibility to Allah. There are great benefits to being Muslim, but if you are only seeking rewards, then you must re-examine your decision. When I went to Mosque and began learning Qur'an, I was often asked why I was there. My answer, unwaiveringly, was "God has brought me here." A true answer, to be sure, and the most recent chapter in a story I shall tell at another time, but if you do not know in your heart that Islam is right for you, then wait. Do not be hastey in your decision and nobody will force you to hurry up and decide.

Step 3: Shahadah

Once you've made up your mind, then you should ask the brothers to help you declare Shahadah. Full Shahadah is "Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu". It is said in front of the brothers, usually three times, often in both Arabic and English. You have born witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammed was the last Prophet. You are now Muslim.

Prepare to be overwhelmed. Every brother will walk up to you, embrace you, shake your hand, welcome you with smiles, and many will give you their business cards with their home phone numbers on it in case you need anything.

But it doesn't end there. Just declaring Shahadah is not the only obligation to Islam. Islam has 5 pillars and Shahadah is only the first of them.

Step 4: Learn Salat

Muslims pray in a specific way as commanded in Qur'an. You may speak to Allah at any time of the day or night, but there are five times set aside where you should pray alongside the brothers at the Mosque every day. In non-Islamic countries, our work schedules often do not permit us to run off to Mosque, but many workplaces do not mind if you take a little personal time. Salat does not take long and perhaps there are other Muslim brothers in your place of work who wouldn't mind joining you. You can purchase beautiful prayer mats from any Dawa Center very inexpensively. If it is impossible, do not despair, for Allah knows of your desire to pray, but also sees that you are not permitted.

Friday is essential, however, and you should do whatever you can to make sure you're off work on Fridays. I know that it is not always possible, but so does Allah, and put your trust in Him that he will find a way.

On a side note, you must also learn how to perform the ritual cleansing and the rules behind modesty during wudu and even some new rules concerning going to the toilet! Hint: Muslim men sit down to urinate. I'll let you discover for yourself why.

Salat is a bit of a mystery to non-Muslims. Most of their impression is just a single position of the Salat - the one where the forehead is on the ground - but Salat is a stylized ritual where shahadah is declared, Allah is called upon to help the world, surah (chapters) of Qur'an are read, and peace and mercy among the brothers is the theme. Muslims stand shoulder to shoulder when they pray, casting their eyes down towards the spot where their forehead will touch, and they face east, towards the Kabah in Makka.

Some differences from what you may be used to in the West:

1] Mosques are not segregated. Black, White, Asian, Arab, and all manner of races stand side by side without apprehension. Once you become Muslim, that is all that matters. Your ethnicity is just a matter of conversation.

2] Except for the elderly or those who cannot easily get up and down on their knees, there are no chairs in a Mosque. Those familiar rows of pews do not exist in Mosque. We sit on the floor to listen to the Imam or to have conversation. There are always brothers at the Mosque, lounging about, reading Qur'an, discussing politics, exchanging information, laughing, talking, and enjoying each others company in the most comfortable place in the world: the house of our Lord.

3] All thanks and praise are given to Allah and only to Allah. Muslims do not applaud, but rather acknowledge that Allah has willed great talent upon a person. Some outsiders consider us rude because we don't generally say "Thank you" when given a gift, but rather something to the effect of "Allah has blessed you with generosity." Conversely, thanking a Muslim doesn't get you very far except a response of something to the effect of, "Allah willing, I shall be a better person tomorrow." Often, from what I've seen, a Muslim will put their hand to their heart and give a slight bow when given a gift and nothing will be said at all.

4] Muslims do not wear gold or silk. Many Western churches and synagogues are full of people dressed in their finest. In the Mosque, the men and women are comfortable, wearing simple cotton clothing and modest head coverings. 99% of the brothers are bearded, but some work restrictions force some brothers to be clean shaven. The beard is part of the male hijab (covering) and, while not necessarily a requirement, is a Good Thing(tm).

Step 5: Start saving for Hajj

It may take you ten years to raise the money, but all Muslims who are able-bodied and in no danger are required to make pilgrimage to Makkah once in their lives. You may go as often as you like, of course, but the only requirement is for once. I have not made Hajj yet, myself, but Insha'Allah I will be able to in the next few years.

What I have done is set up a savings account specifically for Hajj which will grow and be invested in various things until the capitol is there. There are Muslim travel agencies everywhere in the world that offer Hajj packages that can save money and help you during the time you spend there. Once you get to Makkah, however, there will be no end to the number of people willing to take you with them and show you what to do.

Also, keep in mind that Hajj is done at a certain time of the year. You can go to Makkah as a Muslim at any time of the year (one of the perks as non-Muslims are not allowed in Makkah), but Hajj is specific.

You may be asking yourself why non-Muslims are not allowed in Makkah. It's a matter of respect. Muslims have learned about the Kabah, what it means, what it is, and we have spent (in some cases whole lifetimes) a long time in our journey to Makkah. Can you imagine trying to pray at the Great Mosque while some Hawaiin shirt wearing tourist with a cooler full of ham sandwiches is taking a picture of his tube-top clad daughter in front of the Kabah?! It would be unthinkable to us.

Step 6: Charity

Give give give. Allah will provide you everything you need. If you have a sturdy roof over your head and running water, then you are already better off than 60% of the world. There are specific requirements for charity outlined in Qur'an and you will learn these as time goes on. You may give as much as you like, of course, but there are minimums based on your income and type of income. Don't worry, though, as nobody but Allah is auditing you. Then again, maybe you should worry. ;)

Step 7: Ramadan

Fast during the day, celebrate at night. That's Ramadan in a nutshell. Different countries celebrate differently, but every Muslim is required to fast and abstain from marital relations, not smoke, and refrain from getting the hair cut, and other things during Ramadan.

Learn from the brothers and from Qur'an that which is required.

Step 8: Qur'anic rules lawyers

Every religion has its adherents who try to find little loopholes in the rules that allow them to slip through the cracks and have a bacon sandwich or a beer. I would advise against this. For every rule in Qur'an, there is a why. There is always a why. Allah has been very good at explaining why He likes things the way He does and we are not to ignore His judgement.

For many rules, the brothers may jokingly chide you a little, but Allah shall judge you. The last thing you want is to be relegated to the cheap seats in Paradise because you didn't make an honest effort to stop smoking cigarettes or had a couple of beers on the weekends because "Qur'an says intoxicants and a couple of beers doesn't get me drunk". Is a cigarette and a beer really worth being in the back row in Paradise?

Even worse, some loopholes could cause you to be declared apostate - such as Osama bin Laden using carefully rearranged passages in Qur'an as justification to slaughter the innocent. Bin Laden is apostate and no Muslim would help him hide and he can never enter the Great Mosque. Unless, of course, he turns himself in, apologizes, reaffirms his faith in Allah, and changes his ways. Salmon Rushdie, a famous apostate, had his fatwah lifted when he returned to Islam. Since Allah is the final judge, your brothers will forgive you if you genuinely seek forgiveness, no matter what you have done.

<closing yet to be written>

Mmkay ... long read ... hope it's informative.

Well written, clear and informative.

I have one or two questions, but I am not sure if I can state them clearly without offending. If I do offend, please be assured it was not my intent.

What, is the situation for women in regard to Islam. Where do they stand in the scheme of the religion?

What is the rational behind Ramadam? Should it be observed at the same time in the Southern hemisphere?

I'm sure the normal Muslims don't consider Jews to be infidels that must die...but, when a topic on Israel or Judiasm is brought up at a mosque, what are the typical comments? I remember reading once, that the Saudi's are pissed off the Palestinians for what they've done.... if i can ever find the article, i'll post it.

What, is the situation for women in regard to Islam. Where do they stand in the scheme of the religion?

Women are absolutely equal to men in Islam.

What is the rational behind Ramadam? Should it be observed at the same time in the Southern hemisphere?

Ramadan is the month during which Qur'an was given to Muhammed. Ramadan begins on the full moon and is the 9th month of the calendar, regardless of what hemisphere you're in. :)

I'm sure the normal Muslims don't consider Jews to be infidels that must die...

Here's a funny thing...the only people I've ever heard use the word "infidel" aren't Muslims.

Here's a funny thing...the only people I've ever heard use the word "infidel" aren't Muslims.


Aren't the Muslim Terrorist Extremists...well Muslim? Doesn't that count somewhat?

Maybe they're not traditional...but i'm pretty sure they're still Muslim.

I'm sure the normal Muslims don't consider Jews to be infidels that must die...but, when a topic on Israel or Judiasm is brought up at a mosque, what are the typical comments?

A lot of Muslims came to Islam from Judaism. I was surprised by the number of Jewish brothers (like me) who I met at Mosque.

When the topic of the Israel/Palestinian mess comes up, there are varying opinions (just like in any group). I've yet to personally meet a Muslim who hates Jews, hates Israel, and wants complete Muslim control over the region. Qur'an commands us to respect Jews so long as they respect us.

From what we can tell with what's going on there now, a new era of peace is upon us. I, for one, am looking forward to it.

A lot of Muslims came to Islam from Judaism. I was surprised by the number of Jewish brothers (like me) who I met at Mosque.

When the topic of the Israel/Palestinian mess comes up, there are varying opinions (just like in any group). I've yet to personally meet a Muslim who hates Jews, hates Israel, and wants complete Muslim control over the region. Qur'an commands us to respect Jews so long as they respect us.

From what we can tell with what's going on there now, a new era of peace is upon us. I, for one, am looking forward to it.


So where did the concept, that "Any land under control of Islam, must stay Islamic until end of days" come from?

I am the Imam of Seville.

Aren't the Muslim Terrorist Extremists...well Muslim? Doesn't that count somewhat?

Maybe they're not traditional...but i'm pretty sure they're still Muslim.


No ... anyone who slaughters the innocent by Allah's name is apostate and not Muslim. It would be like a person claiming to be Christian while rejecting Jesus.

They may still consider themselves Muslim, but 99.9% of the Muslim world disagrees with them.

All religions have extremists , not just muslims. Think before posting something like that. :headbang:

So where did the concept, that "Any land under control of Islam, must stay Islamic until end of days" come from?

Greed and powermongering by men, mostly. We do not own land. The Earth belongs to Allah and Allah will decide what happens to it and when. Man proposes, Allah disposes.

Greed and powermongering by men, mostly. We do not own land. The Earth belongs to Allah and Allah will decide what happens to it and when. Man proposes, Allah disposes.

Commun-Islam. Nice.

Commun-Islam. Nice.

It's one of the reasons Islam is so frowned upon by the Capitalist West. Islam is rather Communistic/Communal.

Aren't the Muslim Terrorist Extremists...well Muslim? Doesn't that count somewhat?

Maybe they're not traditional...but i'm pretty sure they're still Muslim.

My point is that I have never met a Muslim who referred to non-believers as "infidels". I live next to a mosque in Muslim dominated community. I have attended many Friday Jumma sermons and have yet to hear this word uttered.

I have, however, heard it used in an ironic manner, e.g. "OMFG we kill j00 infidelz, LOLORZ!!" by people who are not Muslims.

Here's a funny thing...the only people I've ever heard use the word "infidel" aren't Muslims.

I have heard it used by muslims. I have travelled to muslim countries (Morocco, Turkey, Jordan and Egypt) and heard it several times in political discussions. Its not uncommon. As far as Jews, they really hate them. I have heard that so many times I cant tell you.

One of the Problems is that most people dont have contact with muslims to understand what they are about and what they think. Very interesting people I must say. Most of them tend to be Democrats which suprises me. But they are a devout proud people. I can see where they can get carried away with there religion. But many Jews and Christians alike can do the same. Problem is that institutional hatred is taught in alot of Muslim countries. Starting with our so called allies the Saudi's. If you can get them to teach tolerance then I think things will calm down.

Aren't all religions technically Communist by nature? Help others, Each according to their need, give money to the poor... well i can't speak for the Far-East Philosophy/Religions, but the Judeo/Christian ones are more Communistic anyways.

I'm curious about how the majority of Muslims feel about Christians now in days. >_>

I have heard it used by muslims. I have travelled to muslim countries (Morocco, Turkey, Jordan and Egypt) and heard it several times in political discussions. Its not uncommon. As far as Jews, they really hate them. I have heard that so many times I cant tell you.


Interesting. Then could you possibly tell me what the Arabic word for "infidel" is?

that essay, or whatever you wish to call it, is a very informative and helpful piece. So here's my general Islam question. By your undestanding of the Qur'an, what is the stance on premarital sex, even if it's in a loving and commited relationship?
cuz no offence to all y'all Christian types, that stance really bugs me for some reason.

A quick tutorial on what happens, what it's like, and what to expect. (Something I'm developing for a website and would like a little feedback from NS folks):

Mmkay ... long read ... hope it's informative.
Fascinating and well-written! Good job. :D

So you want to be Muslim, eh? (long read)
No.

Interesting. Then could you possibly tell me what the Arabic word for "infidel" is?

KHAEN=infidel. BTW most muslims that I talk with speak english.

Aren't all religions technically Communist by nature? Help others, Each according to their need, give money to the poor... well i can't speak for the Far-East Philosophy/Religions, but the Judeo/Christian ones are more Communistic anyways.

Well, Christianity not so much. Capitalism is justified by Christians with the whole "Render unto Caesar" nonsense.

I'm curious about how the majority of Muslims feel about Christians now in days. >_>

They are also "People of the Book". As long as they believe in Allah (or God, whatever) and are good to other people, there isn't a problem. As far as worshipping Jesus goes, we see that as a little misguided, but well intended.

that essay, or whatever you wish to call it, is a very informative and helpful piece. So here's my general Islam question. By your undestanding of the Qur'an, what is the stance on premarital sex, even if it's in a loving and commited relationship?
cuz no offence to all y'all Christian types, that stance really bugs me for some reason.

Pre-maritital sex is out of the question. In fact in some cultures if the groom doesnt show blood after there first night. The marriage can be nullified. The woman can be an outcast in her own society. Niger for example had a case a couple of years ago. The woman had a baby out of wedlock. They were going to kill her for it. Wasnt until European and American politicians and womens groups stepped in did they stop it. Eventually I believe she was granted asylum in the US. Now this is the extreme side of it. Even in progressive muslim countries its still a big problem for women to have a child out of wedlock. In Morocco I saw areas where there were single women with kids shanty towns. This is where women would go if they had this happen to them. There families throw them out. They have no other place to go than these places. Turkey however is just a bit different. Although I have only been to Istanbul and Ankara. So my interaction was limited.

By your undestanding of the Qur'an, what is the stance on premarital sex, even if it's in a loving and commited relationship?

Well, if it's a loving and commited relationship, it is marriage. Weddings are a cultural thing. Marriage, in Islam, is defined as a commited and loving relationship. Divorce is legal in Islam, so it is understood that even commited and loving relationships can fall apart. Divorce should be the last resort, of course, except in cases of abuse, but Allah knows we are not perfect.

I'm curious about how the majority of Muslims feel about Christians now in days. >_>

My experience is that they dont mind Christians. But they sure do mind Jews. That hatred is bred into them from birth. Its startling when I first ran into this mind set and realised how many thought that way.

Niger for example had a case a couple of years ago. The woman had a baby out of wedlock. They were going to kill her for it.

Do not confuse a country's traditions with that of Islam. The story you mention above has no basis in Qur'an. It says in Qur'an that if a woman has a child out of wedlock, then the community as a whole is to act as father to that child.

If a bunch of rabble rousers in Niger say one thing and Qur'an says another, then Qur'an is the authority.

Your taking of things like this to prove that it is what Muslims believe should happen or that Qur'an approves it is merely showing your ignorance. If you can cite in Qur'an where it says to kill women who have babies out of "wedlock" (wedlock being a European Christian ideaology with no basis in Islam), then I am all ears.

Until then, it is better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Well, if it's a loving and commited relationship, it is marriage. Weddings are a cultural thing. Marriage, in Islam, is defined as a commited and loving relationship. Divorce is legal in Islam, so it is understood that even commited and loving relationships can fall apart. Divorce should be the last resort, of course, except in cases of abuse, but Allah knows we are not perfect.


Dont forget to add that divorce in many muslim countries can only be initiated by the man. It is extremely difficult for a woman to get a divorce in alot of muslim countries. In my opinion they can say what they want. Women on the whole are not treated equally. This has been my experience travelling and talking with peoples of these countries.

Well, if it's a loving and commited relationship, it is marriage. Weddings are a cultural thing. Marriage, in Islam, is defined as a commited and loving relationship. Divorce is legal in Islam, so it is understood that even commited and loving relationships can fall apart. Divorce should be the last resort, of course, except in cases of abuse, but Allah knows we are not perfect.
that is interesting. despite my atheistic tendencies, i do find comfort in knowing that i am married in the eyes of Allah. oh, i had another wuestion. What is the customary response to "a salam malekum" (sp?)?

My experience is that they dont mind Christians. But they sure do mind Jews. That hatred is bred into them from birth. Its startling when I first ran into this mind set and realised how many thought that way.


Hey ... palie ... I'm a Jew.

Dont forget to add that divorce in many muslim countries can only be initiated by the man. It is extremely difficult for a woman to get a divorce in alot of muslim countries. In my opinion they can say what they want. Women on the whole are not treated equally. This has been my experience travelling and talking with peoples of these countries.


I don't care what "Muslim Countries" do. I was writing about Islam, not men's or government's corruption.

Great piece. Very imformative and easy to read.

If only the world had more authors like you, than we wouldent be such a mystery to eachother,

Do not confuse a country's traditions with that of Islam. The story you mention above has no basis in Qur'an. It says in Qur'an that if a woman has a child out of wedlock, then the community as a whole is to act as father to that child.

If a bunch of rabble rousers in Niger say one thing and Qur'an says another, then Qur'an is the authority.

Your taking of things like this to prove that it is what Muslims believe should happen or that Qur'an approves it is merely showing your ignorance. If you can cite in Qur'an where it says to kill women who have babies out of "wedlock" (wedlock being a European Christian ideaology with no basis in Islam), then I am all ears.

Until then, it is better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Listen fool. I probably know a hell of alot more than you do. If you want to discuss this in Arabic lets go. So maybe you need to get off your high horse and allow some other opinion on muslims. I have travelled and lived in Morocco. Married to a muslim and half my family is muslim. So I do have some authority in the fact.

I don't care what "Muslim Countries" do. I was writing about Islam, not men's or government's corruption.


Islam is a the sum of the whole of its followers. Same with Christiananity and Judaism.

Hey ... palie ... I'm a Jew.
i've never met a Muslim who was anything but kind, gentle and loving. I've never met one who has expressed any kind of resentment towards Judaism. On the other hand, and i bear judaism no ill will when i say this, but i have met an alarming number of jews who are bigoted and hateful in regards to their muslim brothers. It turns my stomach. Several of those are in my family, some are old family friends. almost all are otherwise good people. it just irks me. of course, i should note that i say this as an american, hailing from a land neither predominantly Jewish, nor Muslim.

Hey ... palie ... I'm a Jew.

And your telling me I dont know what I'm talking about? How interesting...

Pre-maritital sex is out of the question. In fact in some cultures if the groom doesnt show blood after there first night. The marriage can be nullified. The woman can be an outcast in her own society. Niger for example had a case a couple of years ago. The woman had a baby out of wedlock. They were going to kill her for it. Wasnt until European and American politicians and womens groups stepped in did they stop it. Eventually I believe she was granted asylum in the US. Now this is the extreme side of it. Even in progressive muslim countries its still a big problem for women to have a child out of wedlock. In Morocco I saw areas where there were single women with kids shanty towns. This is where women would go if they had this happen to them. There families throw them out. They have no other place to go than these places. Turkey however is just a bit different. Although I have only been to Istanbul and Ankara. So my interaction was limited.

Okay, I'm out then. :p

Genuine Islam is a beautiful thing. But it's simply not for me. I like sex way too much. :)

And your telling me I dont know what I'm talking about? How interesting...

That's right. That's what I'm telling you. No brother has ever once expressed any hatred or animosity towards me for being a Jew. I sat in a Mosque for nearly a year, as a Jew, before my embracing Islam and every single brother there was open and welcoming and respectful towards me.

I've also been to Saudi Arabia (with an Israeli stamp on my passport) and was given no problems about it. I was welcomed and helped.

Personally, I don't know what sort of Muslims you're hanging around or why you've taken the impression you have, but frankly, were I a lesser person, I'd simply say you're a liar who is trying to spread hatred. If you've truly married a Muslim woman, and express your disdain for Islam to her as you've done here, then I can only hope she will come to her senses and walk out.

Okay, I'm out then. :p

Genuine Islam is a beautiful thing. But it's simply not for me. I like sex way too much. :)


Don't listen to him, LG. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

i've never met a Muslim who was anything but kind, gentle and loving. I've never met one who has expressed any kind of resentment towards Judaism. On the other hand, and i bear judaism no ill will when i say this, but i have met an alarming number of jews who are bigoted and hateful in regards to their muslim brothers. It turns my stomach. Several of those are in my family, some are old family friends. almost all are otherwise good people. it just irks me.
Then you need to meet more people.
There are assholes of every ideology and background. I know very generous and kind Muslims and Jews, I also know nasty and bigotted anti-Semitic Muslims and anti-Muslim Zionist Jews. For you to imply that Muslims are perfect and Jews are evil is ignorant and irresponsible.
Of course there are different opinions among Muslims depending on where they come from. In the US a lot of the Gulf State foreign exchange students I've met are more vocal about Israel etc. (though these Muslims are perfectly fine people). In China the assimilated Muslims I've met don't give a shit about Israel/Palestine.

Islam is a the sum of the whole of its followers. Same with Christiananity and Judaism.


No. Islam is what is commanded by Allah, not the sum of its corruption by men.

I've noticed you [Keruvalia] using "Qur'an" without an article (that is, you simply say "in Qur'an" rather than "in the Qur'an"). Does that mean that Qur'an would translate to something including an article, or is there simply no need to use an article with that particular?

I'm used to seeing "the Bible" and "the Qur'an" (though honestly I usually see it spelled as Koran). I'm just curious as to why you don't have "the" in front of it.

Then you need to meet more people.
There are assholes of every ideology and background. I know very generous and kind Muslims and Jews, I also know nasty and bigotted anti-Semitic Muslims and anti-Muslim Zionist Jews. For you to imply that Muslims are perfect and Jews are evil is ignorant and irresponsible.
Of course there are different opinions among Muslims depending on where they come from. In the US a lot of the Gulf State foreign exchange students I've met are more vocal about Israel etc. (though these Muslims are perfectly fine people). In China the assimilated Muslims I've met don't give a shit about Israel/Palestine.
I was not contending that there weren't any, i don't think i made myself clear, just conveying a personal experience with confounds the widely held stereotypes.

I'm used to seeing "the Bible" and "the Qur'an" (though honestly I usually see it spelled as Koran). I'm just curious as to why you don't have "the" in front of it.

Good eye! I use Qur'an without article because there is only one Qur'an and it is seen as a Holy thing, noble and unique. It would be like me being referred to as "the Keruvalia".

The Bible is a conglomeration of many books, so it is appropriate to say "I have read the Bible" as opposed to "I have read Genesis".

That's right. That's what I'm telling you. No brother has ever once expressed any hatred or animosity towards me for being a Jew. I sat in a Mosque for nearly a year, as a Jew, before my embracing Islam and every single brother there was open and welcoming and respectful towards me.

I've also been to Saudi Arabia (with an Israeli stamp on my passport) and was given no problems about it. I was welcomed and helped.

Personally, I don't know what sort of Muslims you're hanging around or why you've taken the impression you have, but frankly, were I a lesser person, I'd simply say you're a liar who is trying to spread hatred. If you've truly married a Muslim woman, and express your disdain for Islam to her as you've done here, then I can only hope she will come to her senses and walk out.

See this is where your completely wrong my friend. Im not showing disdain for muslims. I am merely pointing out the cultural differences. For you to say something stupid like what you just said proves alot of things. You are a lesser person for suggesting that my wife leave me.

As far as you sitting in a mosque as a jew. They are not going to turn you away if you think you will convert. That is a fact. They want you to convert over. If a fellow muslim converts a jew its a great sign to allah. It helps with the good deeds one has to do on earth to go to heaven.

If you didnt want people to post about there experiences with Islam then you shouldnt have started this topic. Understand? You are not the foremost expert on this religion. Neither am I. I am stating my views and experiences. Take it how you will. But dont try and belittle me in the process to try and show some type of supremecy. It isnt working with me. Hopefully you can be a man and accept what I say.

Good eye! I use Qur'an without article because there is only one Qur'an and it is seen as a Holy thing, noble and unique. It would be like me being referred to as "the Keruvalia".

The Bible is a conglomeration of many books, so it is appropriate to say "I have read the Bible" as opposed to "I have read Genesis".

Perfect sense. Thanks. :)

Hopefully you can be a man and accept what I say.

I can assure you that I will never accept your bigotry.

Edit: This doesn't mean I hate you or think of you my enemy, but merely that I need to try harder to educate you.

I wasn't aware there is a "read a few paragraphs to understand an entire religion" out there.

I can do Christianity in a few sentences.

"Kill heathen religions off. Repent sins. Say words. Eat wafer. Rinse. Repeat."

Unless you have a better motto? :headbang:

I can assure you that I will never accept your bigotry.


Your the one that has to live with yourself. You can call me what you want. I know what I am. My friend you are not a muslim.

Wow, great thread Keruvalia! While I am searching for the right decision and haven't anchored myself down to a single religion, I've been looking into Islam alot. I've seen Islam first hand(I lived in Pakistan: Which was the first Islamic Republic and is devout without being overdevout like Saudi, and I lived in Bangladesh, which is a mix of liberalism and Islam), and have researched alot of it. Unfortunatly(or fortunatly, depending on how ye look at it), I am only 13, so I don't think I'll be joining Islam any time soon... I don't think it would go over well with my family(It's not like they'd disown me or anything, it's just my mother and grandmother are devout Catholics O_o).

My friend you are not a muslim.

Bahahahaha! Oh that's rich. Good luck with that belief.

You're saying that because I don't hate Jews, don't want to kill women who have babies out of wedlock, don't want to oppress women, don't want to declare Jihad on all non-Muslims, that I am not a Muslim? Tell me ... does your wife want these things? How does she deal with you, then?

Oh boy ... thanks for the laugh.

Bahahahaha! Oh that's rich. Good luck with that belief.

You speak arabic? We can discuss this that way if you like. I dont want to make a fool of you.

You speak arabic? We can discuss this that way if you like. I dont want to make a fool of you.

No, I don't. It is not, however, a requirement of Islam to know Arabic. You can feel free to "make a fool of me" in English if you like.

You speak arabic? We can discuss this that way if you like. I dont want to make a fool of you.

No, please, do it in English. I've got popcorn ready and wouldn't want to miss out.

hal tatakalamou alaarabia?

ana a3rifou ba3da alaarabia ida aradta moumkin natakalm mafi mouchkila

Hey Keruvalia, let me get this straight...
You're willing to answer my questions on Islam?
Because I've got some weird ones (Nothing offensive I hope) that need answering. Ya' up to the challange?

hal tatakalamou alaarabia?

ana a3rifou ba3da alaarabia ida aradta moumkin natakalm mafi mouchkila

I have no idea what that means or why "3" is in there. Is it Arabic "leet" speak?

Incidently, you do realize that Arabs are a small minority of Muslims, don't you?

hal tatakalamou alaarabia?

ana a3rifou ba3da alaarabia ida aradta moumkin natakalm mafi mouchkila

*Translation* I left my pants in my other car.

(P.S. Translation software provided by my imagination)

I'm rooting for Keruvalia.

*grabs a handful of Amyst's popcorn and sits down next to him*

Hey Keruvalia, let me get this straight...
You're willing to answer my questions on Islam?
Because I've got some weird ones (Nothing offensive I hope) that need answering. Ya' up to the challange?

Insha'Allah, I shall do my best.

I have no idea what that means or why "3" is in there. Is it Arabic "leet" speak?

lol.

It's not going to be much of a show. Marrakech has avoided answering every question posed to him.

Keruvalia, Islam rocks after reading that. I might research some more... although I doubt that I will convert, the seeds of cynicalism are too deep in me to ever wiggle out. And can the troll please make a fool of you in english, I want to understand!

This calls for jihad.

http://img189.exs.cx/img189/1479/ffshallahramadan7xz.jpg

I have no idea what that means or why "3" is in there. Is it Arabic "leet" speak?

Incidently, you do realize that Arabs are a small minority of Muslims, don't you?

Yeah!

There are more South Asian Muslims then there are Arab ones! (There are 413,124,615 in total.

156,491,617 in Pakistan,

127,001,272 in Bangladesh,

and129,631,726 in India.

These numbers are from Wikipedia).

This calls for jihad.

http://img189.exs.cx/img189/1479/ffshallahramadan7xz.jpg


This calls for Crusade to counter Jihad


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Aryek/DivineKnights.jpg

This calls for jihad.


Sigh ... again? *grabs AK-47 and arabic "leet" translator* ... now where's that turban ...

Insha'Allah, I shall do my best.


Sweet.
Well, here's my listof really weird questions (Don't try to figure out why I have them, I think too much for my own good some times).

Now, I've read some stuff around the internet regarding Islam on some stuff. And I remember seeing that Muslims can not date, is this true?
I also remember seeing that a Muslim man may marry a non-Muslim woman, as long as the woman agrees that the kids be raised on the Qur'an. But a Muslim woman may not, under any circumstance, marry a non-Muslim man.. Is this true? And could you give me an idea why?
What is Islams teachings on inter-gender relationships? I mean the freindship kind, not the sex kind.

That's all off the top of my head, I'm sure more will come back to me shortly.
I trust you to be able to answer my weird questions.

Sigh ... again? *grabs AK-47 and arabic "leet" translator* ... now where's that turban ...

"t3h 1|\|f1d3lz w1ll d13, L0LZ0RZ"

:).

Bahahahaha! Oh that's rich. Good luck with that belief.

You're saying that because I don't hate Jews, don't want to kill women who have babies out of wedlock, don't want to oppress women, don't want to declare Jihad on all non-Muslims, that I am not a Muslim? Tell me ... does your wife want these things? How does she deal with you, then?

Oh boy ... thanks for the laugh.

Im telling you that you dont know half of what muslims are about. You should not be answering questions based on what you have shown to know. Like how you have edited the post to add more crap to it. Now you know damn well I didnt say thats what all muslims do. I am only pointing out my experiences. Everyone is different.

Now, I've read some stuff around the internet regarding Islam on some stuff. And I remember seeing that Muslims can not date, is this true?

It's generally considered inappropriate for a non-married woman and non-married man to be alone together. However, tradition varies culture to culture. Muslims "date" in the US and Europe, but not so much in, say, Iran.

I also remember seeing that a Muslim man may marry a non-Muslim woman, as long as the woman agrees that the kids be raised on the Qur'an. But a Muslim woman may not, under any circumstance, marry a non-Muslim man.. Is this true? And could you give me an idea why?

This is true. It is because the lineage of Islam comes from the father. It's sort of like in Judaism where it is frowned upon when a Jewish man marries a non-Jewish woman. The children would not be Jewish unless they convert.

What is Islams teachings on inter-gender relationships? I mean the freindship kind, not the sex kind.

See answer to your first question. :) Anything lawful is permitted. A non-married man and woman may hang out together, and whatnot, but Allah is always watching, so it's a good idea to be on good behavior.

Im telling you that you dont know half of what muslims are about. You should not be answering questions based on what you have shown to know. Like how you have edited the post to add more crap to it. Now you know damn well I didnt say thats what all muslims do. I am only pointing out my experiences. Everyone is different.

He is a Muslim.

When he said he was a Jew, he meant as in Jewish race.

Keruvalia is being way too rude to that other guy. He has only told us about people he's met who Identify themselves as muslims. If Keruvalia is saying that they are not really muslims, then that would make Islam a very small religion.

No, I don't. It is not, however, a requirement of Islam to know Arabic. You can feel free to "make a fool of me" in English if you like.


Yes it is a requirement. Of all supposed muslim people you should know this.

It's generally considered inappropriate for a non-married woman and non-married man to be alone together. However, tradition varies culture to culture. Muslims "date" in the US and Europe, but not so much in, say, Iran.



This is true. It is because the lineage of Islam comes from the father. It's sort of like in Judaism where it is frowned upon when a Jewish man marries a non-Jewish woman. The children would not be Jewish unless they convert.



See answer to your first question. :) Anything lawful is permitted. A non-married man and woman may hang out together, and whatnot, but Allah is always watching, so it's a good idea to be on good behavior.


Finally answers! Thank you.
Those have been plaguing me for.. weeks?
The internet is such a bad resource, better to hear it from someone at least in the religion.

Now, for the joke question...
Why do Muslim extreemists always use AK-47/74's?

I just wanted to peg you on a joke. I hope you don't mind. XD

I can assure you that I will never accept your bigotry.

Edit: This doesn't mean I hate you or think of you my enemy, but merely that I need to try harder to educate you.


I dont hate you either. Merely I need to educate you better brother ;)

Im telling you that you dont know half of what muslims are about.

I'm telling you that you have based your entire experience when it comes to Muslims from experience with a tiny minority of Muslims and as an outsider. There are things that you could never be privy to since you are, admittedly, a non-Muslim.

In short, as a non-Muslim, you will never actually understand what it means to be a Muslim or what Islam truly is about. This, in fact, nullifies any arguments you may have against Islam.

It would be like me writing stories from a Christian perspective. It cannot be rightfully done. You may think you know what you have seen, but you have no experience in what you speak.

You have also cited not one example from Qur'an of how Islam is supposed to be as hateful and barbaric as you have claimed.

I dont hate you either. Merely I need to educate you better brother ;)

You want to educate me on how to be more hateful? *shakes head* I pity you.

Why do Muslim extreemists always use AK-47/74's?


Well ... they're cheaper and more reliable than an M-16. :D

Yes it is a requirement. Of all supposed muslim people you should know this.

It's a requierment to read the Qur'an, and recite prayrs in Arabic, that doesn't mean you have to know the language and speak it fluently.
I can pray in Sumerian, this doesn't mean if you dropped me in Iraq 8000 years ago I'd be able to get around easily, or at all.

Yes it is a requirement. Of all supposed muslim people you should know this.

So the hundreds of millions of Muslims who don't know Arabic aren't muslims?

Gosh.[/sarcasm]

Yes it is a requirement. Of all supposed muslim people you should know this.


No it is not. There are 5 pillars in Islam, Arabic is not one of them.

Do not confuse a country's traditions with that of Islam. The story you mention above has no basis in Qur'an. It says in Qur'an that if a woman has a child out of wedlock, then the community as a whole is to act as father to that child.

If a bunch of rabble rousers in Niger say one thing and Qur'an says another, then Qur'an is the authority.

Your taking of things like this to prove that it is what Muslims believe should happen or that Qur'an approves it is merely showing your ignorance. If you can cite in Qur'an where it says to kill women who have babies out of "wedlock" (wedlock being a European Christian ideaology with no basis in Islam), then I am all ears.

Until then, it is better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

It seems to be this is a sestemic problem with Islam and interpretation of books like the Qur'an and the Bible... these books are vage in many areas and can be interpreted in many ways. Catholisism solves this problem by having the pulpit, a system by which dictates what the proper interpreation of the bible is. But you can see the many interpretations (and they are vast in many cases) acrosses christianity some more sever then others. Unlike the Catholic faith however, Islam does not have this overriding authority allowing the religion to speak in one voice. The fact of the matter is every so called "muslim" state promots a different interpreation of the Qur'an some more sever then others... The fact that the religion is unable to speak in one voice, that half the muslim world belives something different then the other half, how is it surprising that the rest of the world misconstrues what comes out of the middle east... or is unable to understand the complexities of the religion. It seems half the so called "relgious leaders" are at odds with one another on many issues.

In other words, the descrition/interpreation you gave of islam is nice and all.. yet is not relfective of what many mulisms in Iran, or Iraq, or Afganistan, or Palestine, or Saudia Arabia ... etc belive or practice. Without one voice from which to speak from, the religion will always spur controversy, disagreement, conflict .. etc. Since the dawn of man islamic nations (ESPECIALLY those in the Middle east) have been unable to get along with their neigbors... perhaps these countries have mutated what islam is suppose to be.. or perhaps islam is a religion which simply has no place in governmental positions (seeing as it lacks one voice and is open to endless interpreation)

Well ... they're cheaper and more reliable than an M-16. :D
Blessed are those who can laugh (at themselves [for they shall never cease to be amused]).

Unlike the Catholic faith however, Islam does not have this overriding authority allowing the religion to speak in one voice.

We used to. The Caliphate was abolished with the secularization of Turkey in the 1920s.

I have no idea what that means or why "3" is in there. Is it Arabic "leet" speak?

Incidently, you do realize that Arabs are a small minority of Muslims, don't you?

You think Im stupid? You should know that the QUR-AN is written in Arabic. It is not supposed to be translated into any other language. However it is if the other language is displayed only after the original text is displayed first on the page. However you want to dispute this. All prayers and readings are suppose to said in Arabic. No matter if you are in Indonesia, USA or Arabia

I am Christian but I accept most of people of other religions to be my friend I only dont like Satanists and Wiccans and if your phrophet Muhammad(p.b.o.h.) and I do that out of respect for the Muslims and i have taken your art of Jihad(holy war) to wage it towards the Wiccan/Satanists but in a sense Allah or Jehova or Yahweh or what ever you call God but did he not make us to get along with eachother( aside from the Wiccan Hevan)

You think Im stupid? You should know that the QUR-AN is written in Arabic. It is not supposed to be translated into any other language. However it is if the other language is displayed only after the original text is displayed first on the page. However you want to dispute this. All prayers and readings are suppose to said in Arabic. No matter if you are in Indonesia, USA or Arabia

Yes, I know that. However, being able to recite surah in arabic does not require a person to learn the language.

Learning Arabic is not a pillar of Islam. Allah hears and understands *all* languages.

I am Christian but I accept most of people of other religions to be my friend I only dont like Satanists and Wiccans and if your phrophet Muhammad(p.b.o.h.) and I do that out of respect for the Muslims and i have taken your art of Jihad(holy war) to wage it towards the Wiccan/Satanists but in a sense Allah or Jehova or Yahweh or what ever you call God but did he not make us to get along with eachother( aside from the Wiccan Hevan)


Mmkay ... "jihad" is not a holy war, it is a struggle. A Muslim who smokes cigarettes and tries to quit is in a jihad with himself. All Muslims are in a permanent jihad to get closer to Allah.

Jihad doesn't mean "slaughter people we don't like". 99% of the time, jihad is personal.

You think Im stupid? You should know that the QUR-AN is written in Arabic. It is not supposed to be translated into any other language. However it is if the other language is displayed only after the original text is displayed first on the page. However you want to dispute this. All prayers and readings are suppose to said in Arabic. No matter if you are in Indonesia, USA or Arabia
No language was supposed to be translated into other languages, in fact, no language is supposed to do anything except provide the basis for communication. You dodged the question, imho. As Keru said..

No it is not. There are 5 pillars in Islam, Arabic is not one of them.

I never said it was part of the 5 pillars. But ask your Imam if you should read arabic. I already know his answer.

I never said it was part of the 5 pillars. But ask your Imam if you should read arabic. I already know his answer.


Should? Yes, and I am learning. Required? No. Absolutely not.

Edit: By the way, I already did ask.

No language was supposed to be translated into other languages, in fact, no language is supposed to do anything except provide the basis for communication. You dodged the question, imho. As Keru said..

I think you missed the point here. Was talking from muslim to muslim point of view.

Grocery store is calling me. I shall return in a little while.

Keruvalia, another weird question popped into my head.

I read somewhere (Internet again), that Mohammed (Spelling?) was very very against polythestic religious beliefs, and that Islam itself is pretty much anti-polytheism (Just as people believe it's anti-Jewish).
I'm aware that one of the big things to Islam is "There is no god but Allah", but does that mean us loveable polytheists are in any way looked down upon and/or persecuted according to the religion?

Grocery store is calling me. I shall return in a little while.

Don't forget your camel ;).

I think "Islam" should be defined as the beliefs of all those who identify as muslim, just as "English" is defined as the language used by English-speakers. This may not be very good for "my version of <religion> is correct, all others are wrong>, but it's much more sensible for analytical purposes.

When you become Islamic, don't they cut the Wossname off of your Wossname? (Of course, this also happens when if you're Jewish, so...)

I'm telling you that you have based your entire experience when it comes to Muslims from experience with a tiny minority of Muslims and as an outsider. There are things that you could never be privy to since you are, admittedly, a non-Muslim.

In short, as a non-Muslim, you will never actually understand what it means to be a Muslim or what Islam truly is about. This, in fact, nullifies any arguments you may have against Islam.

It would be like me writing stories from a Christian perspective. It cannot be rightfully done. You may think you know what you have seen, but you have no experience in what you speak.

You have also cited not one example from Qur'an of how Islam is supposed to be as hateful and barbaric as you have claimed.

Got news for you. I am a Muslim. I never said I was. Never said I wasnt. You should have known that I was if I were married to a woman from a Muslim country. So I do have that insight you claim to have over me. This is why Im sticking in this post and defending myself. Maybe mine is different but it is still absolutely valid.

Keruvalia, another weird question popped into my head.

I read somewhere (Internet again), that Mohammed (Spelling?) was very very against polythestic religious beliefs, and that Islam itself is pretty much anti-polytheism (Just as people believe it's anti-Jewish).
I'm aware that one of the big things to Islam is "There is no god but Allah", but does that mean us loveable polytheists are in any way looked down upon and/or persecuted according to the religion?

Ah ... I will answer this before I go.

Islam is against polytheism. However, not to the point of waging war based on religion. It really isn't up to us. Qur'an is quite clear in saying that what happens to those who worship many deities is 100% up to Allah.

Ignorance and hatred are sins in Islam.

My experience is that they dont mind Christians. But they sure do mind Jews. That hatred is bred into them from birth. Its startling when I first ran into this mind set and realised how many thought that way.

Well, you're right and wrong I think. I personally don't like most Jews and do sometimes refer to them as infidels and I'm Muslim. I also found that some Muslims don't mind them, though. I think it depends on what part of the world the Muslim is from.

Think I will take the side of Marrakech on this one. From what I know about Islam I believe Marrakech more. Plus I thought Marrakech posted in Arabic.

But either way we should all have tolerance for each other. Shouldnt kill or look down on anyone from other religions. Just not how GOD or whatever you call him wanted it to be.

Got news for you. I am a Muslim.

I could have sworn you said at some point that you weren't. When I get back from the store, I'll have to find it. You said you were married to a Muslim woman, but that doesn't make you Muslim.

If you are Muslim, then I need to try even harder to convince you how sadly wrong you are about Islam and the way Muslim people are supposed to be.

I really gotta go now. Back in a bit.

I tried reading the Q'uran.

It is, in my opinion, the literary equivalent of ether. I got to the part where Allah (in third person speech) starts ranting about the "Children of Israel".

Then I gave up and read some Tolkien.

Got news for you. I am a Muslim. I never said I was. Never said I wasnt. You should have known that I was if I were married to a woman from a Muslim country. So I do have that insight you claim to have over me. This is why Im sticking in this post and defending myself. Maybe mine is different but it is still absolutely valid.

I have to say I agree. You seem to hold a very realist view about islam and the realities around it. I have one question for both of you. Who is to say what Islam really is, or what the proper interpreation of any of the laws really are ? Militants interprete expcerts of the Quran to validate their jiihad or struggle against the west, and there are many passages which can be interpreted to justify violence. These are not just frindge groups but some islamic/muslim state belifs... At what point then are we able to identify who a "REAL" muslim is ? .. or better yet.. what the PROPER interpreation is ?

We always know where catholis stand, anyone wondering has the Pulpit to refer to...

Ah ... I will answer this before I go.

Islam is against polytheism. However, not to the point of waging war based on religion. It really isn't up to us. Qur'an is quite clear in saying that what happens to those who worship many deities is 100% up to Allah.

Ignorance and hatred are sins in Islam.

Sounds to me that you practice the Westren version of Islam. I know its not all practiced the same way. Iran is very different. Pakistan for example doesnt pray 5 times a day. Was told that by an Pakistani workmate. So I dont think you can say someone else is wrong. Especially if they are muslims from a non-Westren country. They would most likely call you wrong. I know my pakistani friend probably would.

Don't forget your camel ;).


---LOL at LS :p

Sounds to me that you practice the Westren version of Islam. I know its not all practiced the same way. Iran is very different. Pakistan for example doesnt pray 5 times a day. Was told that by an Pakistani workmate. So I dont think you can say someone else is wrong. Especially if they are muslims from a non-Westren country. They would most likely call you wrong. I know my pakistani friend probably would.

Are you kidding me?

I lived in Pakistan, and alot of people pray five times a day. Of course, it is a very busy country, so not everyone has time too, but when they can they pray five times a day. Most of the time, however, they will only pray in the mornings, afternoons, and night, but they will pray five times a day during holidays, friday, weekends, etc.

Oooooowwww! My Wossname! Owowowowow!

I tried reading the Q'uran.

It is, in my opinion, the literary equivalent of ether. I got to the part where Allah (in third person speech) starts ranting about the "Children of Israel".

Then I gave up and read some Tolkien.

I actually think it's a rule that all religious books must be boring.

The Bible=Boring
The Qur'an=Not as boring, but not the greatest read ever.
That book at church with the songs in it= ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Are you kidding me?

I lived in Pakistan, and alot of people pray five times a day. Of course, it is a very busy country, so not everyone has time too, but when they can they pray five times a day. Most of the time, however, they will only pray in the mornings, afternoons, and night, but they will pray five times a day during holidays, friday, weekends, etc.


swear to god that is what he told me. I have asked him many times about Islam. This is out of his mouth. Dont know what to say other than that. Figured he was saying the truth being from Pakistan and all.

swear to god that is what he told me. I have asked him many times about Islam. This is out of his mouth. Dont know what to say other than that. Figured he was saying the truth being from Pakistan and all.

Wait...

Where was he from in Pakistan?

Since people pray alot more in say, Islamabad, then in Karachi.

I could have sworn you said at some point that you weren't. When I get back from the store, I'll have to find it. You said you were married to a Muslim woman, but that doesn't make you Muslim.

If you are Muslim, then I need to try even harder to convince you how sadly wrong you are about Islam and the way Muslim people are supposed to be.

I really gotta go now. Back in a bit.


You dont need to convince me of anything. My experiences and opinions are just that. You have different ones thats fine. I tend to be a realist and say how it is. I dont claim to know everything about Islam. Neither should anyone else. Its an ongoing learning until death.

Wait...

Where was he from in Pakistan?

Since people pray alot more in say, Islamabad, then in Karachi.

Dont know exactly where. But maybe I will ask tomorrow at work.

Who are Muslims here? And out of the Muslims here, who refers to Jews or people from the west, even, as infidels? Am I the only one?

Aiiiiiieeeeveh! My Wossname! It's Bleeeeeeeeeeeding! Utini! Arrrrrrrgh!

Well, you're right and wrong I think. I personally don't like most Jews and do sometimes refer to them as infidels and I'm Muslim. I also found that some Muslims don't mind them, though. I think it depends on what part of the world the Muslim is from.

Well my experiences stem from Morocco, Egypt, Jordan and Turkey. I lived in Morocco. This is where I became a muslim in the first place. This is where I learned Arabic also. Most of my point of views come primarily from Morocco and Egypt. Most of my time was spent in those two nations. In fact going back to Morocco again for 5 weeks this year. Cant wait. Where is it your from?

"So you want to be a Muslim?"
Well, not really. No offense, but I never mentioned I wanted to be a Muslim. Stop putting words in my mouth, dammit! On a serious note, the fact remains that what you preach is from the moderate branch of Islam, which is mainly found in first world countries. Sadly, the situation is a lot different in impoverished Middle Eastern nations, such as Pakistan, where rich madmen fund Madrasas that teach small children only to hate.

I tried reading the Q'uran.

It is, in my opinion, the literary equivalent of ether. I got to the part where Allah (in third person speech) starts ranting about the "Children of Israel".

Then I gave up and read some Tolkien.

YES! Much better read than everything!

Back to the original subject, I found this conversation to be very informative.

I have 1 question though. As someone who abandoned my religion because my lack of belief in heaven or hell, what is the Muslim view on Heaven and Hell?

Who are Muslims here? And out of the Muslims here, who refers to Jews or people from the west, even, as infidels? Am I the only one?

I can tell you in Morocco they call everyone thats not Muslim infidels. Not in as a negative so much. Thats just how sometimes they refer to them.

Well my experiences stem from Morocco, Egypt, Jordan and Turkey. I lived in Morocco. This is where I became a muslim in the first place. This is where I learned Arabic also. Most of my point of views come primarily from Morocco and Egypt. Most of my time was spent in those two nations. In fact going back to Morocco again for 5 weeks this year. Cant wait. Where is it your from?

I hate to break it to you, but some of what you say goes against what I was told by a Jordanian classmate of mine.

Well I was born in India but lived in Palestine for a while and now I live in the U.S.

I can tell you in Morocco they call everyone thats not Muslim infidels. Not in as a negative so much. Thats just how sometimes they refer to them.

Yes, that's very true.

"So you want to be a Muslim?"
Well, not really. No offense, but I never mentioned I wanted to be a Muslim. Stop putting words in my mouth, dammit! On a serious note, the fact remains that what you preach is from the moderate branch of Islam, which is mainly found in first world countries. Sadly, the situation is a lot different in impoverished Middle Eastern nations, such as Pakistan, where rich madmen fund Madrasas that teach small children only to hate.

This is exactly my point. There are different strains of Islam. No matter what anyone says. Anyway thanks for the post.

This is exactly my point. There are different strains of Islam. No matter what anyone says. Anyway thanks for the post.

There's different views of everything.
Everyone sees everything differently.

I hate to break it to you, but some of what you say goes against what I was told by a Jordanian classmate of mine.


So thats fine with me. Again I am speaking of my experiences. They will be different from other people. I only spent two weeks in Jordan. Jordan is also known as a progressive Muslim country. But I can tell you go out in the country side. That is where they really teach the old style ways.

There's different views of everything.
Everyone sees everything differently.

That's also true, and I see Israel as infidel swine who need to get out of our Holy Land.

That's also true, and I see Israel as infidel swine who need to get out of our Holy Land.
It's exactly people like you who I was referring to. "Infidel Swine"? They have as much right to live there as anyone else.

That's also true, and I see Israel as infidel swine who need to get out of our Holy Land.

And I see everyone in Iraq as infidel swine who should get out of my Holy Land.
Actually, I couldn't care less who's in Iraq, but the sentiment is still the same.

Now that you mention it...I think I have been taught the wrong things growing up. I still believe, however, that Israel should give back at least half the land they took from us.

Iraq isn't exactly the Holy Land, buddy. And anyway, you need to know the story of how Israel came to be...

It has been holy for the jews for longer than Islam existed.

And btw, Islam and Judaism were so close, like, with Muhammed being sheltered by the Jews. What happened?

I have to say I agree. You seem to hold a very realist view about islam and the realities around it. I have one question for both of you. Who is to say what Islam really is, or what the proper interpreation of any of the laws really are ? Militants interprete expcerts of the Quran to validate their jiihad or struggle against the west, and there are many passages which can be interpreted to justify violence. These are not just frindge groups but some islamic/muslim state belifs... At what point then are we able to identify who a "REAL" muslim is ? .. or better yet.. what the PROPER interpreation is ?

We always know where catholis stand, anyone wondering has the Pulpit to refer to...

Well if you really want to get to what Islam is. You have to follow the QUR-AN to the word. Unlike many Christian countries. Muslims like humans dont always follow the rules all the time. Especially when it comes to prayer.

Now I know that when I was in Turkey I had a girlfriend that ate pork. Now this is a major tennant of Islam not to eat pork. She didnt care. Although she did claim to be a muslim.

So people will do what they want. As in most religions they will vary over time on how much they practice. As in other religions. Its most likely younger ones that dont follow the path exactly. While older ones tend to follow tradition alot closer. It makes sense. The more you realise you are mortal. The more you practice your chosen religion.

Iraq isn't exactly the Holy Land, buddy. And anyway, you need to know the story of how Israel came to be...

I know all about Israel, you need to look into where my religious beliefs come from.
To me, Iraq IS the Holy Land.

One thing I do not understand about a lot of religions, is the seeming-ly pointless bans on certain foods. Alcohol I understand. Pork... less so. I understand why it used to have been banned in desert religions, becuase of spoilage, but now...

I know all about Israel, you need to look into where my religious beliefs come from.
To me, Iraq IS the Holy Land.
The whole Holy Land thing has been abused. Why does it have to be "owned" by one religious group. How is it "defiling" if multiple groups worship there? And the Israelis are giving back land to Palestinians, although much of the land they have now was mainly unoccuppied when they got there.

One thing I do not understand about a lot of religions, is the seeming-ly pointless bans on certain foods. Alcohol I understand. Pork... less so. I understand why it used to have been banned in desert religions, becuase of spoilage, but now...

Pork is banned by Muslims and Jews alike. Pigs are omni-vours. They will eat everything and anything. This is why they are considered dirty. Sheep and Cows for example are herbivours. They only eat plant materials. Things grown of the earth. You see the difference now. You really shouldnt eat pork even if your not religious. Its not healthy.

One thing I do not understand about a lot of religions, is the seeming-ly pointless bans on certain foods. Alcohol I understand. Pork... less so. I understand why it used to have been banned in desert religions, becuase of spoilage, but now...

From what I understand pigs use to feed on the garbage society produced and sought to eliminate... to this note the meat from pork use to be mainly spoiled like you said... the meat was seen as unclean and could taint the body (which was to be seen as a sanctuary or temple). This is why pork is banned... atleast from what I understand. For other religions where beef is banned, the cow was seen as a holy animal so of course to kill the cow and eat the meat is outlandish.

Pork is banned by Muslims and Jews alike. Pigs are omni-vours. They will eat everything and anything. This is why they are considered dirty. Sheep and Cows for example are herbivours. They only eat plant materials. Things grown of the earth. You see the difference now. You really shouldnt eat pork even if your not religious. Its not healthy.
Thank you. I always wondered that.

According to my Religious Studies prof, pork is banned because alot of people wouldn't cook it right, and if you don't cook pork right you can get tape worms, because such parasites live in pigs, and their eggs can be ingested.
It was a health issue.

According to my Religious Studies prof, pork is banned because alot of people wouldn't cook it right, and if you don't cook pork right you can get tape worms, because such parasites live in pigs, and their eggs can be ingested.
It was a health issue.

Was taught that way. Maybe by someone misinformed. But I think both may be good explanations. Would make sense either way.

<snip>

Very well written and informative. :)
I may not be religious and such, but that was interesting. And somehow reminded me of life back in South Africa. Probably due to the fact that you could hear the muezzin from my house, and my grandma's house where I spent a lot of my time. And the fact that most of her neighbours were muslim...
[/random childhood memories]

Thanks for writing this. I can better understand my brothers under Allah/God this way. Peace be with you. :D

Pork is banned by Muslims and Jews alike. Pigs are omni-vours. They will eat everything and anything. This is why they are considered dirty. Sheep and Cows for example are herbivours. They only eat plant materials. Things grown of the earth. You see the difference now. You really shouldnt eat pork even if your not religious. Its not healthy.

Not to mention Pigs are high in saturated fat :).

If I become a Muslims, I will sure miss Bacon and Sausage...
but at least my heart will be healthier :p.

I might have become a buddhist but then I would have had to stop eating meat...

According to my Religious Studies prof, pork is banned because alot of people wouldn't cook it right, and if you don't cook pork right you can get tape worms, because such parasites live in pigs, and their eggs can be ingested.
It was a health issue.

I've heard that from numerous sources. And it makes much sense. Considering the fact that in our modern age you are far less likely to get a tapeworm from Pig Meat.

Also, how does eating garbage poison a Pig's Flesh? Won't the body absorb necessary nutrients and discard the useless stuff?

I've heard that from numerous sources. And it makes much sense. Considering the fact that in our modern age you are far less likely to get a tapeworm from Pig Meat.

Also, how does eating garbage poison a Pig's Flesh? Won't the body absorb necessary nutrients and discard the useless stuff?

A human body will store mercury, Lead and all sorts of toxins.

Okie dokie .... I've thought on this and wish to express two things:

1] To Marrakech: I deeply and humbly apologize. I believe I was way too harsh with you and jumped to conclusions I should not have. It is not my way nor is it Allah's desire that I be scornful. Sala'am.

2] To Muslims everywhere: I think you need to spend more time reading Qur'an and less time listening to Imams. An Imam is a man and, therefore, imperfect. My vision of Islam is straight out of Qur'an and I have not altered a single word in any place I have quoted it nor have I interpreted its meaning. I have simply placed it out there for people to read and decide for themselves.

When a brother can have such a jaded view of Islam, then my job is not complete. For a while now people have been asking where the Muslim Ghandi or Martin Luther King is, well, I believe I shall take that mantle upon myself. From this day forward, I shall make it my life's ambition to remind my brothers and sisters that they are to be a people of peace and enlightenment, a shining beacon unto the world, and spend their days in joious celebration of Allah. We are commanded not to hate, not to oppress, and not to follow the words of men, for it is only in Allah that we should seek comfort and only Allah that we should fear. I shall write to every Mosque, every Imam, every Mullah, and every Islamic organization, good or bad, and remind them.

I may die for it, but in peace there is freedom and, as Malcolm X (El-Hajj Malik) said, "If you're not willing to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary". I shall live up to my name, Humam Abdul-Sala'am, courageous servant of the peace.

Stay tuned.

Interesting read, Keruvalia. Good post :)

Okie dokie .... I've thought on this and wish to express two things:
When a brother can have such a jaded view of Islam, then my job is not complete. For a while now people have been asking where the Muslim Ghandi or Martin Luther King is, well, I believe I shall take that mantle upon myself. From this day forward, I shall make it my life's ambition to remind my brothers and sisters that they are to be a people of peace and enlightenment, a shining beacon unto the world, and spend their days in joious celebration of Allah. We are commanded not to hate, not to oppress, and not to follow the words of men, for it is only in Allah that we should seek comfort and only Allah that we should fear. I shall write to every Mosque, every Imam, every Mullah, and every Islamic organization, good or bad, and remind them.

I may die for it, but in peace there is freedom and, as Malcolm X (El-Hajj Malik) said, "If you're not willing to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary". I shall live up to my name, Humam Abdul-Sala'am, courageous servant of the peace.

Stay tuned.


What does the kuran say about being proud, egoistical, up you self, and a fool in general?
It is not your job to educate others, its your job just to live your life according to your beliefs and leave others to live theirs as they please.
Unless of course God himself came down in a vision to you of all people and gave you a message Moses.

You know what I love the most, idiots that go from converts to messiahs in a second....

It is not your job to educate others, its your job just to live your life according to your beliefs and leave others to live theirs as they please.

Actually, I am a teacher. Go figure. I didn't say anything about "messiah".

Anyway, the Prophet (pbuh) said: “The best of you are the ones who learn the Qur’an and teach it to others”. I'd say that's a clear mandate.

1] To Marrakech: I deeply and humbly apologize. I believe I was way too harsh with you and jumped to conclusions I should not have. It is not my way nor is it Allah's desire that I be scornful. Sala'am.

.


Apology accepted.

This has at least been a learning experience for everyone. Hopefully people will have a different perspective on things dealing with Muslims.

Really im not so jaded. Just have a realist view on humans. However they live and practice there religion.

Salam

Right on, Keruvalia! Just try to stick to reforming the nutcases in your religion, while I do thus to mine, and don't go around converting people of other faiths.

Right on, Keruvalia! Just try to stick to reforming the nutcases in your religion, while I do thus to mine, and don't go around converting people of other faiths.

I wouldn't worry about that. We're not allowed to try to convince others to convert. There is to be no compulsion in religion.

*pokes head into post to say hi to Keruvy...then sprints back out*

I wouldn't worry about that. We're not allowed to try to convince others to convert. There is to be no compulsion in religion.
Well, it depends. I loathe aggressive conversion, but simply stating your views and encouraging others to consider your religion is fine. Personally, I don't like to get into the whole conversionary business, but 'tis my duty to spread the Gospel. So I do it with as little forcefulness as possible.

Listen fool. I probably know a hell of alot more than you do. If you want to discuss this in Arabic lets go. So maybe you need to get off your high horse and allow some other opinion on muslims. I have travelled and lived in Morocco. Married to a muslim and half my family is muslim. So I do have some authority in the fact.
If everything you say is true, Keruvalia is no less correct for it. The cultural practises of certain groups of people who consider themselves Muslims has no bearing on the Qu'ran or Islamic law.

Islam is a the sum of the whole of its followers. Same with Christiananity and Judaism.
That's nonsense, absolute nonsense. I'm sure Keruvalia has no more desire to be lumped in with Osama bin Laden and far too many other 'Muslims' in the Middle East than I do with Timothy McVeigh or Fred Phelps, or the average Jew does with the Pharisees or the Hellenized Jews against whom the Maccabees fought.

The actions of misguided -- or even murderous -- individuals does not affect a religion's laws and proper practises.

That's also true, and I see Israel as infidel swine who need to get out of our Holy Land.
o_O

Well, according to them (and me, for that matter), it's their Holy Land -- and buddy, they're the ones with the guns. ;)

Now that you mention it...I think I have been taught the wrong things growing up. I still believe, however, that Israel should give back at least half the land they took from us.
You shouldn't have tried to destroy them.

So, to the two muslims on the thread now, I adress a couple of questions about islam.
1: What does islam say about homosexuality?
2: Who all get's into paradise in the Islamic faith?
3: Is there a hell? Who goes there?
4: Is there anyone that neither goes to Paradise or hell, and where do they go?
5: Is it true that Muslims are allowed to drink mead, or is that just a myth?

1: What does islam say about homosexuality?
2: Who all get's into paradise in the Islamic faith?
3: Is there a hell? Who goes there?
4: Is there anyone that neither goes to Paradise or hell, and where do they go?
5: Is it true that Muslims are allowed to drink mead, or is that just a myth?

1: Homosexuality is frowned upon by Allah. Some countries have taken this to mean they can execute homosexuals, but there is no basis in Qur'an for doing such.
2: Primarily people who follow Qur'an and strive to live their lives the way Allah wants them to. Basically, people who bend their will to Allah. Also, there is a place for the "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) as well as for people who have lived kind and generous lives, but had never heard of Allah or Qur'an. There are also parts (what we humerously term "the cheap seats") where Muslims who didn't quite do everything they could to live up to Islam, but rather were lazy about it, etc, but they still get in.
3: Yes. Who goes there is up to Allah, but from what I can tell in my study, Hell is reserved almost exclusively for those who embrace then subsequently reject Allah (apostates) and die without returning to Islam. Which is why it is essential we do not kill apostates. If we do, we rob them of the chance to return and is why 90% of the world's Muslims scoffed at the fatwah against Rushdie. In short, from what I can tell, you have to be apostate or spectacularly evil to get into Hell.
4: No. A purgatory or limbo has no basis in Qur'an. It's an either or situation.
5: It's a myth. We are not permitted any intoxicants except if they are deemed medically necessary.

What happens to Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, or anyone who isn't a member of the "people of the book".

Oh, and do you count the Druze and Bah'ai as peeps of the book too? Or just Christians, Jews, and Muslims?

What happens to Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, or anyone who isn't a member of the "people of the book".

Oh, and do you count the Druze and Bah'ai as peeps of the book too? Or just Christians, Jews, and Muslims?

Only Christians and Jews are "People of the Book". The Druze and Sufi are generally considered Muslim, but the Bah'ai follow a prophet beyond Muhammed and are not, therefore, Muslim.

Some have argued that since the prophet Isa (Jesus) learned from teachers of Buddhism in his youth that the Buddha can be considered a prophet of Allah. I used to have an essay by a very bright young man giving Qur'anic referrence to the Buddha as a prophet ... lemme see if I can dig that up.

I couldn't honestly answer for Hindus or Taoists. Qur'an doesn't specifically mention them.

Only Christians and Jews are "People of the Book". The Druze and Sufi are generally considered Muslim, but the Bah'ai follow a prophet beyond Muhammed and are not, therefore, Muslim.

Some have argued that since the prophet Isa (Jesus) learned from teachers of Buddhism in his youth that the Buddha can be considered a prophet of Allah. I used to have an essay by a very bright young man giving Qur'anic referrence to the Buddha as a prophet ... lemme see if I can dig that up.

I couldn't honestly answer for Hindus or Taoists. Qur'an doesn't specifically mention them.

MMMmmmmmmkay.

But if they aren't Uber-Evil or apostates of Islam, then that means they don't go to hell. But they can't get into Paradise...Where DO they go? :confused:

MMMmmmmmmkay.

But if they aren't Uber-Evil or apostates of Islam, then that means they don't go to hell. But they can't get into Paradise...Where DO they go? :confused:

It's an either or situation. If they don't go to Hell - which, like I said, from what I can tell is for the apostate and evil - then they logically go to Paradise. Paradise isn't the same for all people, though. Hence the term "cheap seats" I used earlier. (heh)

No ... anyone who slaughters the innocent by Allah's name is apostate and not Muslim. It would be like a person claiming to be Christian while rejecting Jesus.

They may still consider themselves Muslim, but 99.9% of the Muslim world disagrees with them.

Or like a person claiming to be Christian while slaughtering innocents? Would that person also be apostate?

Or like a person claiming to be Christian while slaughtering innocents? Would that person also be apostate?

I wouldn't know. You'd have to ask the Christians.

I'll pop in for a comment and question. I'd just like to say that this is one of the best threads I've read in a while (with the exception of that minor misunderstanding), and I'd like to commend all the participants for their part, and Keruvalia for making it.

As for my question. I was just wondering, Keruvalia, are you a member of any identified sect of Islam? I'm guessing you would just consider yourself Muslim, just as I consider myself a Jew. I'm not Reform, or Conservative, or Orthodox, I'm just Jewish. But for categorical purposes, I identify myself as Conservative. I'm having a hard time expressing what I want to ask. Maybe you can see what I'm getting at?

As for my question. I was just wondering, Keruvalia, are you a member of any identified sect of Islam? I'm guessing you would just consider yourself Muslim, just as I consider myself a Jew. I'm not Reform, or Conservative, or Orthodox, I'm just Jewish. But for categorical purposes, I identify myself as Conservative. I'm having a hard time expressing what I want to ask. Maybe you can see what I'm getting at?

Well, as was explained to me by a couple of folks more learned than I am about such things, the "branches" of Islam (Sunni, Shi'ite, etc) are not distinctions in Islam - there is only one way to be Muslim - rather, they are political distinctions.

If pressed, I generally will just lump myself in with the Sunni, but I've been told I sometimes take a more Sufi approach to Qur'an.

Facetious question here, do you like Qawwali music? :p I do, strangely enough.

Well, as was explained to me by a couple of folks more learned than I am about such things, the "branches" of Islam (Sunni, Shi'ite, etc) are not distinctions in Islam - there is only one way to be Muslim - rather, they are political distinctions.

If pressed, I generally will just lump myself in with the Sunni, but I've been told I sometimes take a more Sufi approach to Qur'an.Thanks. I appreciate the response.

Facetious question here, do you like Qawwali music? :p I do, strangely enough.

You kiddin' me? That is the music of the Sufis. :) I can't get enough of it. I was educated in music in the Western tradition, but found jazz and Indian music at a very early age (thanks to my love of Coltrane and George Harrison respectively) and became enthralled with its quarter tones and diminished third harmonies.

Fabulous stuff. I even like it when it's done in "pop" form like Daler Menhdi, et al. (Although Menhdi is more Punjabi than Mahrashtra)

You kiddin' me? That is the music of the Sufis. I can't get enough of it. I was educated in music in the Western tradition, but found jazz and Indian music at a very early age (thanks to my love of Coltrane and George Harrison respectively) and became enthralled with its quarter tones and diminished third harmonies.

Fabulous stuff. I even like it when it's done in "pop" form like Daler Menhdi, et al.
:) I need to burn my parents' Ustad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan CD's. Or not be cheap and buy my own- *shifty*

Edit: And Punjabi music is cool too. Hehe bhangra style... :p I know Daler Mendhi, just forgotten the songs. Care to refresh my memory?

I have read the Quran and this very interesting thread, but I haven't found out why Muslim men sit when they urinate. My boyfriend does it too, though! I think it's because he's lazy, or maybe because it makes less of a mess. :confused:

Edit: And Punjabi music is cool too. Hehe bhangra style... :p I know Daler Mendhi, just forgotten the songs. Care to refresh my memory?

I'm sure his most well known work in the States is "Tunak Tunak Tun" because the video for it was featured on Albino Blacksheep.

He also did the music for the films Arjun Pandit and Khauff. My favorite albums of his are Nabi Buba Nabi - it's so deliciously impudent - and Main Dardi Rab Rab.

maybe because it makes less of a mess. :confused:

That's the why. :) Very good. Wild animals stand around to urinate and let it splash on their legs and such. We are not animals.

I wasn't aware there is a "read a few paragraphs to understand an entire religion" out there.

I can do Christianity in a few sentences.

"Kill heathen religions off. Repent sins. Say words. Eat wafer. Rinse. Repeat."

Unless you have a better motto? :headbang:

I can do Islam in a few sentences. too

"Kill heathen religions off. Repent sins. Say words. Rinse. Repeat." Look at the Battle of Badr. Battle for conversion really.

I mean few people realize that Muhammmad was a reformer, he didnt dstart a new religion.
It started in Arabia as a multi-thestic religion. With Allah just as a God over the other gods.
He reformed it to have just one, but it still means they were Plural-Theistic.
Keruvalia tried to deny it in aniother thread.

a little worried when one of my closest friends came out of mosque and met up with us to go bowling, then out of nowhere my muslim friend said to my punjabi friend
"You people are evil, you've attacked a mosque in Pakistan and killed men, women and children."
i never forgot what he said- it was really unlike him to say such things.

my punjabi friend said back to him somthing like
"what are you talking about? it's not me that has done that.. just calm down man! the hell are they teaching you in that mosque these days??"

i was actually scared right then- it was so not like him to say that...

i am not of any religion, that i know of anyway, but i'm extremely open and love learning as much as i can about everything.

my point being that i was worried as to what my friend had been taught in the mosque that he attends...

and as for evry muslim person ive ever met being nice thing- what a load of crap, that's like saying
"mmm, yes i went to england the other day and every white person i saw was really nice and loving and every asian person i saw was nice and loving and every black person i saw was jus soo nice to me..."
what a load of crap- but when ppl single out the 'muslim threat' :rolleyes:
oh my god (lol figure of speech) how ignorant and foolish

It is interesting to see several of the same religion defend their respective interpretations. I fear most really don't appreciate that other religions are just as divided as their own.

Mmkay ... "jihad" is not a holy war, it is a struggle. A Muslim who smokes cigarettes and tries to quit is in a jihad with himself. All Muslims are in a permanent jihad to get closer to Allah.

Jihad doesn't mean "slaughter people we don't like". 99% of the time, jihad is personal.

And I get the feeling that a lot of bloodshed in our day comes from our respective so-called "fundamentalists" misinterpreting each of our holy books.

When I first read this thread, I thought "Islam is so much more tolerant than Christianity". Then I realized that isn't accurate: Christianity advocates the same principles of tolerance, it has merely been re-interpreted by people fulfilling their own agenda. It is odd how, if you only read the two books rather than the so-called 'fundamentalist' interpretation of them, almost the entire conflict of Crusade/Jihad/Terrorism/Persecution just vanishes.

I suppose Bush is a true Christian as much as Bin Laden is a true Muslim.

He reformed it to have just one, but it still means they were Plural-Theistic.
Keruvalia tried to deny it in aniother thread.

Denied it quite successfully, I might add.

How coincidental. Just this morning I was looking up some stuff on the Koran and Islam. It's just an religio-informational morning. :D

I've always wondered if they should add the thing I had to go through when I converted to Judaism a long time ago.

Three rabbis ask you if you realize what you're doing - that you're opening yourself up to persecution and worse.

I would think that in today's world, that would be a necessary thing to hear.

I was just dicussing this thread with one of my roommates and told him about the "cheap seats" in heaven. He said they'd be the heavenly suburbs, and heaven proper would be Beverly Hills. :D He also asked what the five pillars of Islam were, and suddenly I can only remember four. Somebody give them, so I don't have to go back and read the whole thread.

And Keruvalia, I must talk about you too much. My roommate has been bugging me to say "hi" to you. I pointed out that you have no idea who he is, but he keeps bugging me about it. So "hi" from Steve, just so I can say I did it. :rolleyes:

I've always wondered if they should add the thing I had to go through when I converted to Judaism a long time ago.

Three rabbis ask you if you realize what you're doing - that you're opening yourself up to persecution and worse.

I would think that in today's world, that would be a necessary thing to hear.

Ah, yes ... I need to add that as a step in the essay ...

Be prepared to defend yourself from bigotry, ignorance, mistrust, and factual inaccuracies for at least 30 minutes a day ... unless you frequent the internet, in which case, at least 4 hours every day.

10 common lies/misconceptions about Islam:

1] Muhammed was a pedophile who married Aisha when she was 9.
2] Muhammed spread Islam by the sword.
3] Islam is oppressive to women.
4] Muslims are cave-dwelling, camel riders.
5] Islam teaches violence and there are great rewards in Paradise if a man blows up school-children.
6] Allah is the moon god of Arabic paganism. (Jack Chick even offers as proof that Ramadan begins and ends on the crescent moon, the symbol of the Arab Pagan moon god - there is one tiny thing wrong with that, though.)
7] Even Muslims like Casey Casem and Paula Abdul and even Cat Stephens (you know, the peace train guy) would cut your throat for insulting the Prophet because Qur'an teaches Muslims to kill anyone who does so.
8] Qur'an commands Muslims to kill infidels.
9] Islam was created by the Catholic church in order to wage war against Protestants.
10] Islam commands female genital mutilation.

Study up on these things and be prepared to debunk them with source, fact, and history. You will be bombarded with them left and right the second you're known to be Muslim.

Edit: There is a strong misconception of Islam which people believe it to be a mystical cult abounding in dogmas, superstitions and ritual dances.

The fact is that Islam is a simple, reasonable and practical religion and free from priestcraft and the above charges. It is a way of life for the social, moral and spiritual development of humanity. It does not demand of a man to surrender his reasoning faculties nor does it demand a blind faith in obscure and inexplicable mysteries. It teaches the purest form of Monotheism.

I was just dicussing this thread with one of my roommates and told him about the "cheap seats" in heaven. He said they'd be the heavenly suburbs, and heaven proper would be Beverly Hills. :D He also asked what the five pillars of Islam were, and suddenly I can only remember four. Somebody give them, so I don't have to go back and read the whole thread.

Five Pillars:

1] Shahadah/Iman - declaration of faith.
2] Salah - the five daily prayers.
3] Zakah - charity and concern for the needy.
4] Sawm - fasting at Ramadan.
5] Hajj - pilgrimage to the Kabah.


And Keruvalia, I must talk about you too much. My roommate has been bugging me to say "hi" to you. I pointed out that you have no idea who he is, but he keeps bugging me about it. So "hi" from Steve, just so I can say I did it. :rolleyes:

Hi Steve!

So technically it is possible for a Muslim to ignore the Hadith completely and still be Muslim?

That's the why. :) Very good. Wild animals stand around to urinate and let it splash on their legs and such. We are not animals.

Good for you! :) One thing I also found interesting in the Quran was the question of women's dress... as far as i could gather, it says that women generally shouldn't show off their "finery" (jewellery, I suppose) too much, but in the case of a woman who is beginning to get a bit old and is worried because she hasn't found a husband yet, it's ok that she shows off a little more. This seems to have have been forgotten by the stricter people, or am I wrong?
And what about the 72 virgins that everybody is talking about, I couldn't find them anywhere in the Quran... so where do they come from, really?

So technically it is possible for a Muslim to ignore the Hadith completely and still be Muslim?

Of course! Hadith and Sunnah are from men, Qur'an is from Allah. A Muslim follows Allah, not Muhammed.

You may be interested in reading this:

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/hadith.htm

im intrested in learning about islam.ive stuipidied christianity intently and would like to know another faith inside and out.the only problem is im a avowed agnostic so i can never truly believe anything,i can hope for it,respect its teachings.but i am devoid of concrete faith.

so if youd like to help,please do.i could use a good place to read the koran freely since studying a religion comes first with studying its truth.

And what about the 72 virgins that everybody is talking about, I couldn't find them anywhere in the Quran... so where do they come from, really?

Many people today - even Muslims - confuse Hadith with Qur'an. The Prophet forbade the writing of Hadith during his lifetime, because he was afraid of it being confused with Qur'an. I believe that his fear has come true.

There is some good in the hadith collections, but you should know that the hadith are not revelation. They are the product of humankind, those with political, social, and economic agendas- people with biases.

Of course! Hadith and Sunnah are from men, Qur'an is from Allah. A Muslim follows Allah, not Muhammed.

Most of the quotes that non-Muslims find objectionable (I find some extremely so) are in the Hadith.

Not that you couldn't find something objectionable in the Old Testament...

Pre-maritital sex is out of the question. ... Even in progressive muslim countries its still a big problem for women to have a child out of wedlock. In Morocco I saw areas where there were single women with kids shanty towns. This is where women would go if they had this happen to them. There families throw them out. They have no other place to go than these places.

My grandmother was also disowned by her family for having my father and his two brothers out of wedlock. She was the youngest daughter of a Christian priest. Not even after both her eldest son and my grandfather died with short intervals would they help her in any way, even though the family was rich. She had to become a seamstress, and my father had to work to help support the family from he was ten. There were no social benefits for someone in her situation at that time. I have a statue of my great-grandmother in my livingroom, and it's not one day that I don't look at her and think "How could you do this to your own daughter?" This is not really that long ago, either... :(

so if youd like to help,please do.i could use a good place to read the koran freely since studying a religion comes first with studying its truth.

Go to any Mosque. They have plenty of copies and plenty of people there to help answer questions and they won't be pushy about it. If you're more the self-learning type, try here:

http://isgkc.org/translat.htm

or here:

http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

or both!

3] Islam is oppressive to women.


This is a very common belief... and probably the most serious criticism today. If you want more people to become familiar with Islam or become Muslims I think you need to address this one.



4] Muslims are cave-dwelling, camel riders.


What's wrong with that? I love camels. :)



5] Islam teaches violence and there are great rewards in Paradise if a man blows up school-children.


Clearly the Quran says that Muslims shouldn't kill innocent people, but if you read it on your own without a good commentary to put things in a historic context (like the Penguin edition, for instance) it DOES look rather violent, doesn't it. So it's not really so strange that people get that impression.


9] Islam was created by the Catholic church in order to wage war against Protestants.


That's absurd... Protestatism started in 1513 or thereabouts, didn't it?


10] Islam commands female genital mutilation.


Not many non-Muslims think it does, do they? It would be good if no Muslims believed so, either...


One thing I think IS a problem with/for Islam is that Islam seems rather centralised - Moslems seem to have a LOT of respect for the imams/mullahs. Consequently individual Moslems, at least where I live, very rarely comment on the misconceptions that are presented in the media, or take part in debates - they wait for some "authority", e.g. the local imam, to do so on behalf of Islam. But the imams don't take part in the common debates at all, often they don't even speak the language. I think they are appointed by some super-mullah somewhere... this creates a kind of segregation, which is unfortunate.

I remember once reading that Islam preaches against patriotism and nationality, since the only person a Muslim should pledge their undying loyalty to is Allah. Is this true? And, if so, why are the extremists (who believe themselves to be Muslim, but are not according to your previous answers) in the Palestinian state so concerned with the territorial disputes with Israel?

I can do Christianity in a few sentences.

"Kill heathen religions off. Repent sins. Say words. Eat wafer. Rinse. Repeat."

Unless you have a better motto? :headbang:

I can do Christianity, at least on its most fundamental level, in one sentence.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
(John 8:11b)

Or like a person claiming to be Christian while slaughtering innocents? Would that person also be apostate?

Depends on which Christians you talk to, because there's some disagreement here. Those in the "eternal security" camp would not recognize the concept of apostasy. Once you're in, you're in. They would probably claim that the person only gives lip service to following Christ and never truly accepted it in his or her heart. If pressed, some would admit, though, that it is possible that such a person is still saved and in Christ, but was making some terrible, horrific mistakes.

There are also those who would argue the opposite, that this could very well be a person who was in Christ, but had rejected Him (possibly in favor of a false Christ made up in his head who justifies his own evil desires). These would argue that this person had fallen out of his standing with Christ.

I'm somewhere in the middle here. Jesus' parable of the sower seems to suggest that one can accept the Gospel, at least at first, and then fall away from it. But the epistle of I John seems to strongly support the "eternal security" camp. I believe that one can accept Christ and then reject Him, but that at some point it does take root and it becomes impossible to fall away. I don't claim to be wise enough to know where that line is, though. It should also be noted that one can claim to be a Christian and even believe himself or herself to be following Christ, but not truly be saved. And that Christ's followers are still not perfect, and are capable of sin.

Congratulations, Keruvalia, on creating a very informative primer. Though it does prompt me to ask one simple question: How does a Muslim know if he or she is "good enough"? The question is extremely central to evangelical Christianity, and I was curious as to the Muslim answer.

Interesting. Then could you possibly tell me what the Arabic word for "infidel" is?

Khafir

Congratulations, Keruvalia, on creating a very informative primer. Though it does prompt me to ask one simple question: How does a Muslim know if he or she is "good enough"? The question is extremely central to evangelical Christianity, and I was curious as to the Muslim answer.

Nobody really knows except for God.

Not even Muslims can agree with each other about the right interpretations of the Quran- why should I buy into it?

Not even Muslims can agree with each other about the right interpretations of the Quran- why should I buy into it?

Some say the Vatican corrupted the Bible through the desires of man.

Khafir

Actually, I think 'kafir' is derived from the word 'kufr', which means to conceal or to reject. I think it translates as "non-believer" but I'm not sure as I don't speak Arabic.

Actually, I think 'kafir' is derived from the word 'kufr', which means to conceal or to reject.

Strange, that's what my friend always told me.

Here's a weird question for you:
Does Allah have a sense of humor? I was seriously thinking about that the other day. It's a retarded question I know.. but if I pick on Allah, Allah would know I was kidding, right?

I also have some normal questions to:

1) What's the Islamic view on Homosexuality? Bisexuality? Straight, but Kinky sex? Does this apply differently from men to women (ie; Lesbianism is OK since some of the more prosperous Muslims have more that one wife)?

2) In Christianity, there's three different ideas that going around. There's "good works", meaning that if is a person does go, they get into heaven regardless of being saved. There is "faith alone", basically meaning that you must believe IN Jesus/God and be saved before you can get into heaven, regardless of what kind of good you do as a person. Lastly would be some kind of combination their of, good works + faith = Heaven.

In summary, what does it take to be a sucessful Muslim? Do you need to just believe in Allah? Does it take good works as well? Would someone like Ghandi, a very peaceful man but not Islamic.. get into heaven or at least live in the ghettos of heaven?

3)I'm not for sure if this is an Extremist thing, but I hear that when a man dies, he get x0 number of virgins in Paradise. What happens to the women in death? Do they get to serve that one man? Do they have their own virgins?

4) I feel weird reading the Qu'ran. Does that mean anything?

1) What's the Islamic view on Homosexuality? Bisexuality? Straight, but Kinky sex? Does this apply differently from men to women (ie; Lesbianism is OK since some of the more prosperous Muslims have more that one wife)?
but not Islamic.. get into heaven or at least live in the ghettos of heaven?


I just know that homosexuality/bisexuality is forbidden in Islam and that's the only thing that I really don't like about Islam and practically every other religion.

I'm a religious Atheist. I studied lots of religions but I refuse to choose one because I have yet to find one that I can support that does not forbid homosexuality.

Pre-maritital sex is out of the question. In fact in some cultures if the groom doesnt show blood after there first night. The marriage can be nullified. The woman can be an outcast in her own society.

Question:
a. Is the "blood" thing true ?
b. If so.. why ? Basic biology shows a virgin woman does not have to bleed the first time. Chances are in fact quite high she won't if she has for instance participated in sports, used tampons, or was simply born without a hymen. Nor does normal penis-in-vagina sexual intercourse have to "puncture" a hymen - so even if it is intact it means nothing (even ignoring the fact that the woman could have been having anal/oral sex).

I just know that homosexuality/bisexuality is forbidden in Islam and that's the only thing that I really don't like about Islam and practically every other religion.

I'm a religious Atheist. I studied lots of religions but I refuse to choose one because I have yet to find one that I can support that does not forbid homosexuality.

Well, crap. Keep on Sinnin'! :fluffle:

Just Joshin'. I'm still interested im Islam.. Though.. I am Bisexual.

Very informative post. :)

Question: How does a Muslim know if he or she is "good enough"?

It is impossible to know, that's why 5 basic requirements were laid out. You can do more, of course, but so long as you at least do those 5 things (declare your faith, perform the 5 daily prayers, give to charity, fast at ramadan, and make pilgrimage at least once in your lifetime) you should be ok.

Not even Muslims can agree with each other about the right interpretations of the Quran- why should I buy into it?

There are no "interpretations" of Qur'an. It is quite clear.

Does Allah have a sense of humor?

Yes, of course. Just look at the giraffe.

1) What's the Islamic view on Homosexuality? Bisexuality? Straight, but Kinky sex? Does this apply differently from men to women (ie; Lesbianism is OK since some of the more prosperous Muslims have more that one wife)?

The rules are the rules for both men and women. Islam only permits more than one wife if the first wife agrees to it. No matter how bad you want a 2nd wife, if your first wife says no, then you can forget it.

Allah seems to frown upon homosexual acts, but it is not man's place to judge. Allah is very clear when He says that such things are between mankind and Him and that mankind is not the Judge. Any sex between a man and wife, even the kinky stuff, is permissible.

A lot of Muslims, themselves, are against homosexuality, but here's my take on it: Allah did not create anything imperfect. Allah created homosexuals, and thus, to Allah they are perfect. It is impossible for me to know Allah's will, hence, as a Muslim, I must accept that they exist for a purpose not yet known to me.

2) In Christianity, there's three different ideas that going around. There's "good works", meaning that if is a person does go, they get into heaven regardless of being saved. There is "faith alone", basically meaning that you must believe IN Jesus/God and be saved before you can get into heaven, regardless of what kind of good you do as a person. Lastly would be some kind of combination their of, good works + faith = Heaven.

Faith is only 1 of the 5 pillars of Islam. As Isa (Jesus) said, all you need is the amount of faith needed to fill a mustard seed. The rest is doing good things and doing things pleasing to Allah.

Would someone like Ghandi, a very peaceful man but not Islamic.. get into heaven or at least live in the ghettos of heaven?

Ghandi's fate is unknown to mortal men, but Qur'an does make it clear that Hell is reserved for the apostate and the evil. Ghandi, I imagine, would at least be in the cheap seats in Paradise.

3)I'm not for sure if this is an Extremist thing, but I hear that when a man dies, he get x0 number of virgins in Paradise. What happens to the women in death? Do they get to serve that one man? Do they have their own virgins?

There is no basis in Qur'an for getting virgins in Paradise. Qur'an does speak of women becoming pure when they reach Paradise - which generally means no more menstruation, no more bodily wastes, no more of all the "icky" things about being human - but it says this same of men.

4) I feel weird reading the Qu'ran. Does that mean anything?

I don't think it means anything, but I do find it a little strange. :)

Why then the dispute between Shiites and Sunnis? Wahabis and the rest of Muslims?

Why then the dispute between Shiites and Sunnis? Wahabis and the rest of Muslims?

There are no "interpretations" of Qur'an. It is quite clear.

Then why are there competing imams?

Or different sects of Islam? Different sects in Christianity are based on differing interpretations of the Bible.

Or are the interpretations differing on the other works, such as the Hadith?

Why then the dispute between Shiites and Sunnis? Wahabis and the rest of Muslims?

Those are political divisions, not religious ones. There is only one way to be Muslim.

Then why are there competing imams?

Or different sects of Islam? Different sects in Christianity are based on differing interpretations of the Bible.

Or are the interpretations differing on the other works, such as the Hadith?

You answered it youtself. The Hadith and Sunnah are hotly debated items, but true Muslims follow only Qur'an. I'd mentioned this somewhere back in the thread. :)

Came up with another messed up sex related question!

What's the Islamic stance on oral and/or anal sex?
It may have been inferred before, but I want a direct answer!


You opened yourself up to every messed up question I can think of, so here you go.

You answered it youtself. The Hadith and Sunnah are hotly debated items, but true Muslims follow only Qur'an. I'd mentioned this somewhere back in the thread. :)

to Keruvalia .. I have a question.. what does KHAEN mean in Arabic ? I belive this is in reference to a question you posed earlier in this thread...

and you seem to be making some assumptions Im unsettled with. You say there is only one way to be Muslim .. through the Qur'an. Problem with that determination is, people will read the same words and interpret them differently (in that the same words dont mean the same things to different people). So what exactly is the "Right" way to be muslim... the muslim ways of Afganistan (maybe the taliban) or those of the Sunnis, or the muslims in Saudi Arabia, or south east asia...

(it is impossible to follow any anchient text word for word because references are made to things events place people which no longer exists... in order to make any text relevent to today certain interpretations HAVE to be made)
From reading of all your posts, your striking me as a sort of evangalist version of muslim... know-it-all only one "true" way to be christian.. even though what YOU belive may not be exactly what EVERYONE else belives.

Perhaps instead of tyring to CONVINCE/CONVERT everyone else your way is the right way.. you should be more open to (atleast) what other muslims are saying, so that you can get a better understanding of their position instead of blindly striking it down.

What's the Islamic stance on oral and/or anal sex?


Oral is perfectly fine, anal is a source of debate. It's one of the few grey areas in Qur'an.

I have a question.. what does KHAEN mean in Arabic ? I belive this is in reference to a question you posed earlier in this thread...

I don't know. I don't speak Arabic. I've made that quite clear.
The only Khaen I am familiar with is the Laotian reed instrument.

You say there is only one way to be Muslim .. through the Qur'an.

That is an undeniable fact.

Problem with that determination is, people will read the same words and interpret them differently (in that the same words dont mean the same things to different people).

Qur'an is very specific. It speaks to people almost the way you'd speak to a 6 year old. There really is no room for interpretation. If Allah says "pray 5 times a day" and then goes on to give the specific times, there is no room for interpretation. It doesn't say "3" and it doesn't say "6" ... it says "5". 1 .. 2 .. 3 .. 4 .. 5! How much more clear do you want it?

So what exactly is the "Right" way to be muslim... the muslim ways of Afganistan (maybe the taliban) or those of the Sunnis, or the muslims in Saudi Arabia, or south east asia...

The way that is laid out in Qur'an. Following the 5 pillars, which all Muslims do. You can't ignore a pillar and still be Muslim. It would be like claiming to be Christian without ever being baptised. If Allah says, "Don't kill non-combatants, women, children, or destroy land or trees when you wage war" and someone straps on a bomb and blows up a garden full of women and children, that's not an interpretation problem, that's a disobedience problem.

even though what YOU belive may not be exactly what EVERYONE else belives.

What I believe is directly from Qur'an, which is the unaltered word of Allah. There should not be a Muslim on the planet who does not follow that same path.

Perhaps instead of tyring to CONVINCE/CONVERT everyone else your way is the right way

I am the last person who would try to convert anyone to anything. Perhaps you've ignored the 300 times I've reminded people that there is to be no compulsion in religion.

Convincing, however, is something we all do. It's something you're trying to do to me. There is nothing wrong with persuasive debate.

I don't know. I don't speak Arabic. I've made that quite clear.
The only Khaen I am familiar with is the Laotian reed instrument.

Well.. from the other fellow who does speak arabic... he made it quite clear it was the word for infidel... Im actually helping you answer your question since you were so inquistive and had never heard the word used in arabic before (and belived it didn't exist)

That is an undeniable fact.

While you make this seem all very simple... I find it incredibly hard to belive that Islam is such a simplistic religion that its exact words are able to followed and still remain relevant today, DESPITE the fact that there are almost as many different interpretations of the Quran as there are of the Bible...

And some how.. im quite sure if i put even the slightest effort I will beable to show you passages of the Quran which can be interpreted atleast 3 different ways from which you belive without having to reword a thing...

In fact... despite my lazyiness i think i will do just that.. a quick google search for some lines from the Quran which relate to war or sex or marriage... and i will show you how they mean very different htings from what you think they mean

The way that is laid out in Qur'an. Following the 5 pillars, which all Muslims do. You can't ignore a pillar and still be Muslim. It would be like claiming to be Christian without ever being baptised. If Allah says, "Don't kill non-combatants, women, children, or destroy land or trees when you wage war" and someone straps on a bomb and blows up a garden full of women and children, that's not an interpretation problem, that's a disobedience problem.

and... you can be christian without being baptised as Baptisits do not belive in the sacrament of baptisim.. To only pre-requisit to be saved by god is to belive in god in christianity.. for us.. the realiziation is that man is imperfect and we can only strive to be as good as possible, which is why we may repent when we commit sins

What I believe is directly from Qur'an, which is the unaltered word of Allah. There should not be a Muslim on the planet who does not follow that same path.

Do egyptians follow the same form of islam as you ? and Iraqi's ? and Iranians? or people in southeast asia such as indonsia, maybe saudia arabia... i can't see how when they dont agree with each other let alone all with you (all varying levels of extremity)

Well.. from the other fellow who does speak arabic... he made it quite clear it was the word for infidel... Im actually helping you answer your question since you were so inquistive and had never heard the word used in arabic before (and belived it didn't exist)

Would care to take a moment to research back through the thread and show me where:

1] I asked for the Arabic word for "infidel"

and

2] Where someone who speaks Arabic, rather than hearing it from their Jordanian friend, gave an answer?


While you make this seem all very simple... I find it incredibly hard to belive that Islam is such a simplistic religion that its exact words are able to followed and still remain relevant today, DESPITE the fact that there are almost as many different interpretations of the Quran as there are of the Bible...

Islam *is* a very simple religion. Even a couple hours of study will show you this. I've made mention of it in this very thread. Perhaps you should spend a little time and actually read the thread. The assertions you've made in the first quote above shows that you may have been reading the thread, but have not been paying attention to it.

There are only acceptable translations of Qur'an into variouis languages, there are no "interpretations" of Qur'an.

And some how.. im quite sure if i put even the slightest effort I will beable to show you passages of the Quran which can be interpreted atleast 3 different ways from which you belive without having to reword a thing...

Then, by all means, do so.

In fact... despite my lazyiness i think i will do just that.. a quick google search for some lines from the Quran which relate to war or sex or marriage... and i will show you how they mean very different htings from what you think they mean

Make sure you check the source, mmkay?

Do egyptians follow the same form of islam as you ? and Iraqi's ? and Iranians? or people in southeast asia such as indonsia, maybe saudia arabia... i can't see how when they dont agree with each other let alone all with you (all varying levels of extremity)

On average, yes they do. I can go anywhere in the world and find Muslims and perform the same salat, recite the same Qur'an, and know exactly where to go and what to do and how to behave without worry. Can you say the same about adherents to your faith?

I've been to Kuwait and Saudi, been around Muslims in Israel, Mexico, Canada, and the US and have yet to see any remarkable differences except in style of dress.

We are a global community, not a bunch of cells.

Thank you for writing this. I found it quite informative. I've recently fallen into fascination with Islam, particularly it's day to day practice, and though I most likely will not convert, I found this thread extraordinarily helpful in clarifying some things.

A question though. Do Muslims at a mosque ever grow suspicious or even angry if a white Muslim was to enter?

well i was about half way through the page writing diferent passages.. but then i fell into this site.. and .. well u just dont get more straight forward then the first line O.o so here you go.

http://www.punjabilok.com/faith/islam/islamunderstandingquran.htm

o.. allow me bold the most important first line There have been numerous interpretations of the Holy Qur'an make sure you understand interpretation does not mean translation ... :)

EDIT: my goodness.. just randomly scimming this site i have to say im quite pleased with my find as it makes my point to the "T" and perfectly illustrates my point of the differeing interpreations.. now its quite simple for you to write off these other interpreations as simply false and that they are not truely muslim (which I wholely hope you dont do) but then that would not be very open minded of you

Thank you for writing this. I found it quite informative. I've recently fallen into fascination with Islam, particularly it's day to day practice, and though I most likely will not convert, I found this thread extraordinarily helpful in clarifying some things.

A question though. Do Muslims at a mosque ever grow suspicious or even angry if a white Muslim was to enter?

I can answer that.

No

Islam is a blending of all cultures, and to Muslims your skin color doesn't matter. There are loads of white Muslims(In the Balkans and Cechnyia(sp?), for example).

I can answer that.

No

Islam is a blending of all cultures, and to Muslims your skin color doesn't matter. There are loads of white Muslims(In the Balkans and Cechnyia(sp?), for example).

I appreciate that. As a suburban American, it's hard to find these things out.

I appreciate that. As a suburban American, it's hard to find these things out.

:)

Well, I was born in Suburban America, but living all over the world helped me to find this stuff out. I lived in Pakistan and Bangladesh, so I know my fair share about Islam, Daily life, etc.

I have one question... do women still have to kneel in the back of the mosque.. or are they allowed to worship side by side males yet ?

It is difficult to envision how it can be that Islam is a religion of equality among the sexes if men and women can't even worship in the same place

Khafir

You mean Khayen or khaen. Perhaps you have mispelled the word for infidel?

I have one question... do women still have to kneel in the back of the mosque.. or are they allowed to worship side by side males yet ?

It is difficult to envision how it can be that Islam is a religion of equality among the sexes if men and women can't even worship in the same place
From my understanding its not allowed.
I have never personally seen men and women together. Normally the men are in the front of the mosque. A wall seperates the women in the back. You would not see them at all. Little children are allowed from what I have seen. But generally the boys are up with the men.

Ramadan is the month during which Qur'an was given to Muhammed. Ramadan begins on the full moon* and is the 9th month of the calendar, regardless of what hemisphere you're in. :)

*I think you wanted the NEW moon!

Thank you for writing this. I found it quite informative. I've recently fallen into fascination with Islam, particularly it's day to day practice, and though I most likely will not convert, I found this thread extraordinarily helpful in clarifying some things.

A question though. Do Muslims at a mosque ever grow suspicious or even angry if a white Muslim was to enter?

umm there are white people who have been Muslim for 500 years in Bosnia i Hercegovina, in Albania, in Macedonia, Bulgaria and the Muslims in Chechniya are white too. So I kind of doubt that would be a big problem. Not if a person were sincerely interested.

Also want to add my two cents about terrorist and what I would call the other muslims. Now again this is my personal experiences. With 99% of muslim peoples that I engage in conversation. They believe that blowing themselves up is not a muslim act. Therefore these people cease to become muslim. This is because suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam. What happens is that these power hungry people do is brainwash young muslims into believing they are doing Allahs bidding. This is purely political in nature. These people will not go to "heaven".

Now there are "different muslims" Sunnis and Shiites are the two main groups. Now with the Iranian(Persian) people in the US that I speak with will say that Shiites are muslims. Many outside of the Shiite world will say that they are not. The pure form of Islam is only one way. The following of the Qur-an is the only way. Any deviation from its teachings and steps will not constitute a true muslim. This will be definately be contested by Persians and others. So I would suggest not getting into an arguement about it. As far as the different customs between Shiites and Sunnis. I dont know enough about that to discuss it here. There are other breakoff sects but I would refer you back to my thought on Sunnis and Shiites.

Also want to add my two cents about terrorist and what I would call the other muslims. Now again this is my personal experiences. With 99% of muslim peoples that I engage in conversation. They believe that blowing themselves up is not a muslim act. Therefore these people cease to become muslim. This is because suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam. What happens is that these power hungry people do is brainwash young muslims into believing they are doing Allahs bidding. This is purely political in nature. These people will not go to "heaven".

Now there are "different muslims" Sunnis and Shiites are the two main groups. Now with the Iranian(Persian) people in the US that I speak with will say that Shiites are muslims. Many outside of the Shiite world will say that they are not. The pure form of Islam is only one way. The following of the Qur-an is the only way. Any deviation from its teachings and steps will not constitute a true muslim. This will be definately be contested by Persians and others. So I would suggest not getting into an arguement about it. As far as the different customs between Shiites and Sunnis. I dont know enough about that to discuss it here. There are other breakoff sects but I would refer you back to my thought on Sunnis and Shiites.

I was simply making the point that.. it maybe the only true way of Islam is the Quran fine... just like in Christianity,, every christian faith follows the bible.. HOWEVER ... the bible is INTERPRETED many different ways.. because there are many vague areas, and much of the book.. as one would imagine is outdated.. ancient text.. so one must interpret certain sections to make it relevent to today. If simply fail to accept that the Quran is so perfect that no interpretation is made from this ancient text.. that all muslims read the text and belive the same exact thing.. (which clearly isn't reality making note to the link i posted)...

It maybe the only way to follow Islam is the Quran but the Quran's words have many interpretations INCLUDING those extreme radical ones (even if they are not considered muslims.. which i would not)

Language.. like the men who created it.. is imperfect... so matter what text you draw your belifs from.. so interpretation is always nessesary.. And especially the the faith lacks an authority figures to dictate what is the generally accepted interpretation (like the pope) every muslim may read into certain passages more or less.. then others... beliving different things

I was simply making the point that.. it maybe the only true way of Islam is the Quran fine... just like in Christianity,, every christian faith follows the bible.. HOWEVER ... the bible is INTERPRETED many different ways.. because there are many vague areas, and much of the book.. as one would imagine is outdated.. ancient text.. so one must interpret certain sections to make it relevent to today. If simply fail to accept that the Quran is so perfect that no interpretation is made from this ancient text.. that all muslims read the text and belive the same exact thing.. (which clearly isn't reality making note to the link i posted)...

It maybe the only way to follow Islam is the Quran but the Quran's words have many interpretations INCLUDING those extreme radical ones (even if they are not considered muslims.. which i would not)

Language.. like the men who created it.. is imperfect... so matter what text you draw your belifs from.. so interpretation is always nessesary.. And especially the the faith lacks an authority figures to dictate what is the generally accepted interpretation (like the pope) every muslim may read into certain passages more or less.. then others... beliving different things

I wasnt aiming that post at you directly. But have to agree with you on your way of looking at it. We are after all just humans.

Thank you for writing this. I found it quite informative. I've recently fallen into fascination with Islam, particularly it's day to day practice, and though I most likely will not convert, I found this thread extraordinarily helpful in clarifying some things.

A question though. Do Muslims at a mosque ever grow suspicious or even angry if a white Muslim was to enter?


Look there are a ton of white muslims. If you were to see Lebanese,Syrians,Jordanians, and many other peoples from muslim nations. You wouldnt be able to tell them out of a group of Americans. Dressed the same way of course. Muslims as in Christians come in all shapes and sizes, colors, lands etc.

So I have a couple of questions:
1] Is Arabic the common language of the global Muslim community? And if so, is it possible to be a practising Muslim without being fluent in Arabic?

2] I'm very curious and interested in visiting a mosque, but as a non-Muslim Christian, I'm wondering how to go about this. I'm very open to and have the utmost respect for Islam (even the idea of converting has always something in the back of my mind).

3] Who transcribed Qu'ran (using your omission of article :) ) originally. Is it believed that the prophet Muhammad himself was the one who did this?

Keruvalia, thank you so much for making this thread! I have so much respect for you! A lot of what you said I have heard from other Muslims and I appriciate your bravery to address sensitive issues.

I have a few questions for you:

About the whole pork thing... A Muslim told me that a long long long time ago (we're talking ancient times) Allah turned some non-believers into pigs and then told the believers not to ever eat pigs because it would be like eating another human. Where did she get this? Is it true?

I have heard more progressive Muslims are allowing men and women to pray side by side now in the mosques and then can even enter through the same door. This new philosophy is that Allah knows your thoughts and that if you are not focused on prayer because of the females, that is your own fault and Allah will be angry with you and not the females. Any truth to this? Have you heard about this new progressive movement in the mosques?

Now a personal question- I am Buddhist that respects all religions and believes they are all valid in their own ways. I am a very peaceful person (although I have my burdens to bear) and believe greatly in compassion. I'm going to be quite frank though: I often have a great conflict within myself that turn existential. Christianity has never worked for me and Buddhism is the only thing that's felt right. Honestly, I feel God has abandonded me. I've been through some horrible things and never felt as if there was a god there to help. I've called out to anyone who would listen, with no response. I've even had dreams where I have tried to talk to God, but all God tries to do is kill me (seriously, this is an ongoing thing that has been happening for YEARS... God tries to kill me in my dreams anytime we get together for a chat). I guess my question is: what does this mean to you, a Muslim? What is God trying to tell me in my dreams (if anything)? Why do I feel so lost and abandoned sometimes? I feel at peace with the path of Buddhism as far as how I am supposed to treat other people; however, this whole issue of God and our relationship haunts me.

Oh, and one more question: Why do Muslims not like dogs? Is this a cultural thing or a religious thing?

Oh, and one more question: Why do Muslims not like dogs? Is this a cultural thing or a religious thing?


Wtf? Muslims dont like dogs? I thought Greyhounds were still used by muslim farmers to this day. 0_o

I have one question... do women still have to kneel in the back of the mosque.. or are they allowed to worship side by side males yet ?

It is difficult to envision how it can be that Islam is a religion of equality among the sexes if men and women can't even worship in the same place

Not a follower of Islam.. but I actually think this makes sense. If you are praying/listening to a speech you are supposed to be able to focus on that. Sitting next to a pretty woman may destract you, or even result in a few dirty/unclean thoughts. Viewed as such, it is not a mark of inequality, just an indication that the people who made this 'rule' are well aware of human nature ;)

Of course, the question then remains why the woman are always sitting in the back.

(and i would still like an answer to the blood question)

Fast during the day, celebrate at night.

Make that "eat moderately at night" and I'm with you. Ramadan is supposed to teach what it means to be so poor you don't get enough to eat. Poor people don't stuff themselves at night either, they go hungry all the time.

A question though. Do Muslims at a mosque ever grow suspicious or even angry if a white Muslim was to enter?

As a semi-white Muslim, I can assure you ... no. :)

It's also been written that Abu Bakr may have been of the caucasion persuasion.

I have one question... do women still have to kneel in the back of the mosque.. or are they allowed to worship side by side males yet ?

It is difficult to envision how it can be that Islam is a religion of equality among the sexes if men and women can't even worship in the same place

Men and women are separate in the Mosque just as they are in Orthodox synagogues. Allah has always commanded that there be no possibility of distraction while in worship. Through Torah, the Gospel, and Qur'an, it is taught to separate men and women in the House of the Lord.

It doesn't make women any less equal. It gives them the same opportunity to worship and pray without distraction as it does the men. Perhaps you should re-examine your definition of "equality".

*I think you wanted the NEW moon!

Yes, I did. Thanks. :)

Men and women are separate in the Mosque just as they are in Orthodox synagogues. Allah has always commanded that there be no possibility of distraction while in worship. Through Torah, the Gospel, and Qur'an, it is taught to separate men and women in the House of the Lord.

It doesn't make women any less equal. It gives them the same opportunity to worship and pray without distraction as it does the men. Perhaps you should re-examine your definition of "equality".
how does segregating the genders reduce "distraction"?